This Had Oscar Buzz - 093 – The Painted Veil (Naomi Watts – Part Two)

Episode Date: May 11, 2020

Our second episode on the Oscar trajectory of Naomi Watts brings us to 2006’s The Painted Veil, a W. Somerset Maugham adaptation set during a cholera outbreak in 1920s China. Watts starred opposite Edward Norton as a combative English couple whose love rekindles after an affair, with the actress’s then-boyfriend Liev Schreiber as the other man. … Continue reading "093 – The Painted Veil (Naomi Watts – Part Two)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. What was that? I'm afraid that you have thought me a bigger fool than I am. He knows. I knew when I married you, she was selfish and spoiled.

But I loved you. Do you know a place called Meitam Fu? They've had an outbreak. It's the worst epidemic anyone's seen in a long time. I have volunteered to take charge. You can't be serious about taking me into the middle of a cholera epidemic. Do you think that I'm not? We've been traveling for two weeks.

What did you do, swim? No, we didn't come up, Reverend. Kim Ovaland. What ever for? Taking a bit of the countryside. Get a bit of sun. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast floating through the Paris skyline

after yet another mistress throws us off the Eiffel Tower. Every week on this Head Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy, I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my co-host, Joe Reed. The autopsy in this case finds results for cholera.

Nothing but cholera. Lots and lots of cholera. So much cholera. Love question mark in the time of cholera is the alternate title to the painted veil. Right. Love veiled in the time of cholera. Exactly, yes. Do we know what the title of this movie means?

I was like, when does a veil come involved? What metaphor are they going to give us? I initially thought it was going to be a metaphor for white colonialist attitudes towards the Chinese, and that didn't seem to... That's probably what it is. This is based off of a Somerset mom novel, I'm sure that's what it is in the text. You cannot convince me to go read it. Somerset Mom, who I did a little bit of reading a... up on yesterday and throughout the time

I was reading up on him all I could hear in my head is that verse from One Night in Bangkok from Chess that name check Somerset Mom What do you mean? You've seen one crowded polluted, stinking town you Tea girls warm sweet

Somerset up in the Somerset Long Sweet. Get tied. You're talking to a tourist And truly truly a moment in time for me. Yeah. God I love chess. Chess is such a good score. Chess is so good. Chess, I...

Chess noted, like, historic Broadway disaster where, like, the first Broadway preview was, like, four and a half hours long or something. Yeah. Because the set kept malfunctioning. The score is by the guys from Abba. The guys from Abba. It's literally about international relations and love affairs in a chess tournament. It's so...

It's wild. It's genuinely... one of the, like, craziest things ever? Like, it's of subject matter, and, um, I saw it, I saw a kind of concert production of it in, at the Kennedy Center a couple years ago, with Raoul Asparza and Karen Olivo. And, like, a highlight of my theater-going life, genuinely. I love Rolla Sparza and like Karen Olivo doing nobody's side But I don't have done virtually

Everybody's playing it again But nobody's rules are to say Nobody's on nobody's side And I'd like to go in for law Recognize you're all on the road Nobody's on the road Nobody's on nobody's side leapt to my feet at the end of that.

It was so amazing. It was so good. Fully chess only works in concert versions because, like, the plot of it is terrible. Terrible. But the score is amazing. I probably have sent you Sporty Spice and Baby Spice doing I Know Him So Well a million times. Oh. Like, one of the greatest Broadway duets is I know him so well and the Spice Girls do it.

And it's endlessly adapted. You can do it. I know Sondres and French did it in a very sort of like comedic style. Whitney Houston and Sissy Houston did it. Yep. Yep. There's a recording with, I forget who else is doing it, but Edina Menzel and someone. Carrie Fox, there is also Julia Mernie and Sutton Foster. Julia Mernie, who also, there's a YouTube of Julia Mernie doing nobody's side and I want to say a rehearsal and she fucking like, it's an excellent.

orcism. It's so much fun to watch. It's amazing. Yeah. Truly, it's given us so many gifts. Thank you, Chess. Including for running in my head all last night during my Somerset Mom research. Yes. Anyway, hi. We're back for our name. We're here to talk about the painted veil, not the musical chess. Imagine if the Abba guys made a musical of the painted veil. Probably the score would be amazing, but the plot would still be. this was a very watchable movie for me sure I don't know about very watchable but it's watchable for sure it was not a slog at two hours and four minutes it was all right this is okay

it was okay it wasn't that from the very opening minutes I was like oh right this is why Alexander DeSplot was so buzzed for this particular score it's a really really wonderful score the score is incredible And, like, the score, I kind of, I had to look it up. I knew it was a de plah score.

But, like, when you hear it, it's so good that it, like, sounds like something that already exists in the culture, right? Like, the rhythm of it is familiar enough that it sounds like, I don't know. Like, what are those, like, cultural artifacts that always show up in, like, movies of certain eras? It vary that, right? But it's not this, like, swoony, snoozy, like, costume drama score. There's a lot of life to it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's one of his better scores, and he has, like, an incredible body of work, and it is hilarious to me that if you listen to this score, the one that he was nominated for this year is for the queen, which I challenge you to recall any of the score elements from the queen.

But that was a best picture nominee. Like, it does make a certain amount of sense that that would be the nominee. Yeah, yeah, I get all of that. And plus now we get to talk about the Painted Veil on our podcast. I know. This is one of the movies that we've watched, and maybe this is why it was so watchable to me, because I was expecting it to, when we do these type of, like, period, costume-adjacent-style movies, it's usually, like, because they're bad, but, like, watching this movie,

it's one of the ones that we've covered that I felt most surprised wasn't nominated for something. It could have been a production design nomination. The cinematography is so good in this movie. There's some really, really beautiful shots in this movie. Yeah, I'm sort of, I'm falling down a little bit of a Alexander de Splah hole. I was trying to figure out when he first sort of became a composer's name, sort of, that we know. He's been doing scores since, like, the 1980s. But I really don't think it was till, like,

girl with a pearl earring and birth right i feel like those are the movies that like certainly by birth the very sort of um film buff people were were very much into his work yeah yeah totally it's a little surprising he wasn't nominated for girl with a pearl earring too we always come back to 2003 because that did get craft nominations yeah it definitely it definitely did um he also did the score for the upside of anger which i think is interesting that's yeah another reason for me to go and re-watch that movie. A movie we definitely need to talk about at some point. Yeah.

Anyway. Anyway, what were your initial thoughts on the painted veil? This was one that I kind of had to jockey for us to do for our Naomi mini-series. Yeah, I was resistant to it because I had seen it before, and I remember being sort of like unmoved by it. I'm still somewhat unmoved by it. I don't find it too terribly compelling. I think it's sort of easy for me to drift watching this.

I did spark up to Diana Rigg in a way that I hadn't initially because I had yet to see her in Game of Thrones. And in this, seeing her, she plays a mother superior of this convent who is taking care of children in what you call her? cholera, riddled, China. Cholera was the word I was searching for not China. You know, that big giant country in Asia, you know. Caller. Yeah, cholera. No.

Colora, guys, take a shot every time we mention cholera during this movie. And then take yourself directly to rehab. Yeah. Seeing Diana Rigg in a wimple really brought back some wonderful. memories of her in Game of Thrones. I was not a Game of Thrones watcher, but I am familiar with the Diana Rig content on Game of Thrones, as I'm sure you can imagine.

It's truly the same amount of her face is shown in whatever nuns. It's just a small little square of face. Yeah, it's amazing. It's genuinely like her character in this movie is the good angel on one shoulder, and her Game of Thrones character is the devil on the other shoulder. She's so kind and wonderful. the painted veil. And she's so acidic and also

wonderful, but like in a very different way in Game of Thrones. Yes. Weirdly in Game of Thrones, she ended up being like one of the heroes even though her like main course of action she took in the entire series was to poison a small child. But you know, that

was a thing that had to be done. And she does the opposite in this. I'm telling you, it's truly the opposite of her Game of Thrones character. Yeah, yes, it's true. Because she's healing children in them. Healing small children. Exactly. Before we get into the Painted Vale, though, do we want to sort of walk ourselves up to the porch of this movie in terms of the Naomi Watts'ness? Obviously, this is film two in our Naomi Watts series. And when last we left off, she was in the Merchant Ivory film La Divorce that

didn't really go anywhere that was released in the summer of 2003. The rest of... Quickly eclipsed by 21 grams that she did get her first Oscar nomination. for. That felt very hard fought. I remember that nomination if you were a Naomi Watts supporter, which I was, even if you didn't love 21 grams,

which I didn't, but there was a sense of relief that only two years after the Mulholland Drive snub, it was just like, oh, okay, she got one. She's like, she got on the board. She got onto the scoreboard. She got a nomination. Very much

chasing to very far in front front runners. year. So it was like we mentioned, she was probably easily the third place of vote. But like anyone who wasn't Diane Keaton and Charlie's Theron, like best of luck to you that year. Right. Yeah. She really had no chance. The nomination was certainly the reward and she got it. And ultimately, she built a reputation with Alejandro Iniaritu that led to her being cast in the ultimate Best Picture winner Birdman in 2014. So, which she co-starred. with Who, Edward Norton, her co-star from The Painted Vale, it all comes around.

It's all circular. But so after 21 grams, she has a very, very interesting 2004 in terms of independent cinema. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. And including my favorite performance of hers. Which, oh, Huckabees that we've talked about. Huckabees.

Yeah, I heard Huckabees 2004. We have a whole Huckabees episode for you to listen to. We both love I-Hard Huckabees and her work in it. But also that year, she's in We Don't Live Here Anymore, which is very fateful to the episode we're talking about because it's the same director, John Curran, who she pushed to, after she was on board with Edward Norton for the Painted Vail, she kind of nudged John Curran in there because of all the different relationship dynamics that are at play in the Painted Vail, she thought was handled very well and we don't live here anymore, even though they're incredibly different, movies. And what's interesting to me is, like, yes, I think we don't live here anymore is a good movie. And, like, the two marriages that are at the center of that movie, like, I think that movie is well directed, or at least my memory of it is. Laura Dern's incredible in that movie. Laura Dern is incredible in that movie. Also, one of the, uh, a really good indie

trailer from that era also, I remember. Yeah. I just wanted to be here with you and get us back and be in this bed and this house. My husband and my kids where I belong. Also, guess what else is in that movie? A very sexy Mark Ruffalo. A very sexy Mark Ruffalo. Having an affair with Naomi Wats. When is Mark Ruffalo not very how I feel about this, but like the shaggy Mark Ruffalo isn't that. Oh, and he's very sort of chest hair forward in that movie. Also, I remember there was a still photo from before that movie came out that was used for publicity, which was him in bed with Naomi Watts and him just

sort of like resplendently hairy-chested. And she's, like, smoking, right? She's smoking? She's, if she's not smoking literally, she's, like, she's spiritually smoking throughout that entire movie. We're all spiritually smoking, looking at that picture of Mark Loflo. Yeah, for sure. And, of course, we don't live here anymore.

Also, a Warner Independent film that we will be talking about. Naomi's kind of the queen of Warner Independent for the four years that they were there. She had this, we don't live here anymore, funny games, the remake. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was kind of all over that. We will get into Warner Independent Pictures as we go along. And I want to get into John Curran, too, because, like, I think that that decision based off of what worked so well and we don't live here anymore is kind of exactly the wrong decision for the painted veil. Yeah. Also, 2004, she has the assassination of Richard Nixon playing a supporting role to Sean Penn because those two, apparently are buds

and can't stop working together. The thing about Naomi Watts that I always think speaks well of her is that she does have these professional relationships that recur. She and David Lynch apparently, you know, I have this great professional relationship. She was obviously in the

revived Twin Peak season. She played a voice of one of the rabbits in that weird rabbit family interlude in Inland Empire. She's worked with Sean Penn three times. right, 21 grams, assassination and Richard Nixon, and fair game. I think there's one more, but I can't

for the life of me remember what it is, so maybe it doesn't. We just mentioned her and Edward Norton in a couple movies together, her and Diniari too, working together again. I feel like it speaks to she must be, I imagine she must be a positive presence on set. Yeah?

Or somebody who people like to work with. And we've talked about this before, where it's like, she always shows up to whatever movie she's doing. Like, she, it's never phoned in, like, even in, like, something like Birdman makes me, I've thought about this since seeing Birdman because, like, that part is nothing. And she, like, it's, it's, it's, it's, kind of kicks ass when she's in it. Yeah, like, on paper, it's, it's a gross role. Yeah, yeah. And she still makes it funny and, like, goes to the emotional extreme of it, like.

I like Birdman more than you do But yes, it is almost offensive that she was asked to play that role I'm eager to revisit it weirdly enough I'd like to see it again just to sort of I'm gonna try to watch a lot of the movies That we're not talking about this time Yeah

I'll watch that 2005 The Ring 2 which was a bad idea That never should have happened And doesn't do anything for anybody Doesn't make any money Doesn't scare anyone It is one. The only good thing that the Ring 2 did was it had a teaser trailer that scared the shit out of me.

It was it was just a room that is like steadily growing darker and darker and darker and darker and darker. And then like once it hits like peak darkness, this like creepy old lady in the corner of the room sort of like comes animatedly to life and like screams at you. And I just like fucking freaked out. But otherwise, the Ring 2 is very bad. There's a scene with deer attacking. The one thing I remember about the movie is a scene with deer attacking a car on a country road. And it looks like garbage. It looks, the visual effects are so bad.

It's truly one of those horror movie times where the CGI is so bad that it's just impossible to make it scary. Also, it's a movie that takes an original movie that had a, creepy kid, which is a thing that happens in a lot of horror movies, and creepy kids are almost always best used incredibly sparingly. The ring did a very good job with that little boy, where he only said like two or three very ominous sentences, and they decide in the ring too, oh, we're going to make this whole movie about this kid, and it's just like, that is a very bad idea. Yeah. But 2000... Go ahead. The thing about creepy kids is like they're cast at exactly the right time. So when you try to put them out a sequel, they're not at the creepy age anymore.

Right. Right. So like the kid also ceased to be creepy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But 2005 improves for her at the end. She gives a performance in King Kong that I think is better appreciated now than it was then. She was buzzed for that performance, though. She definitely was. Probably because the movie was in the larger conversation, but, like, people were also unkind to that movie. There was a backlash to that movie, to Peter Jackson, to sort of the size and scope of everything that he's doing. I, again, King Kong is a movie I should probably go back to, but I remember finding things to really love about it

while also being like, did everything in this movie need to be in this movie? The dinosaur fights. The dinosaur fights, I don't mind. There's a lot of stuff with, like, the people on the boat. And I think as with, I don't know, I mean, it, it ceases to be interesting at the point where you think it should be most interesting, which is when Anne Darrow, the Naomi Watts character, essentially falls in love with the ape or whatever, like, becomes attached to the giant ape in some form or another, right? there's a weird kinship happening there. To no fault of her own, though, because I think that's a really great performance. And the level of, like, believable emotion she's able to conjure truly from nothing.

Like, I remember being, like, one of the advocates for this at the time, too, because this is also during all of the Star Wars prequels where, like, Natalie Portman has since been incredibly, and she was at the time, outspoken person about how... It's impossible to act to nothing. Yes. And, like, Naomi Watts needs to be commended for, like, what she can do and King Kong. That, like, she was just surrounded by screens. Maybe some of the time Andy Circus was there. Yeah. During the press tour...

If I remember correctly, I don't think he was. There was a lot of her acting alone. During the press tour for the painted veil, she talked about how she either almost didn't do the painted veil or had reservations about doing it at that time because she was so worn out physically by the demands of the King Kong shoot. And I think she had sort of long been trying to make the painted veil happen as a project.

Because it started with Edward Norton, and he got her on board, I believe, shortly after Mulholland Drive. Right. Yeah. So this had been in the works for a while, And I think if it wasn't a project that had been, that they had been trying to make for a while, she might have just said no and, like, taken a little bit more time off from King Kong. But she didn't. As you said, she recruits John Coran to direct.

He is an interesting director in terms of his career. He's made some real interesting films. We kind of accidentally stumbled into a quintessential, this head off. Oscar Buzz director. Yeah, absolutely. Where his movie said, We Don't Live Here Anymore, 2004. That's how he and Naomi worked together.

His only other feature film before that was a 1998 Australian film called, isn't an Australian film? It might be. I don't know. Called Praise. Starring nobody I've heard of. Oh, wait, Joel Edgerton's in this movie. It must be Australian then.

Anyway, we don't live here anymore, then the painted veil. Then he follows up the painted veil with that movie Stone with Edward Norton, Robert De Niro, and who else is in this movie? Mila Jovovich, right? That movie has some advocates. I'm kind of curious to watch it. This is the movie where Edward Norton is in prison with Cornrose. That's the one thing I remember from this movie. I didn't remember that, so maybe I should now.

watch this. It's so, it's also, the poster is very funny because it just says stone, and then, like, there are faces sort of behind the, uh, the floating face poster, uh, De Niro and Norton with like Milo Jovovich in the middle, and they're both above the title and she's below the title. And so, but she also looks like the way that this poster is situated, she sort of seems like she's the president of the block of credits because it's just like her name. And then like, it's just like Mila Jovovich and then just like the block of

the block of names in the credits I've never seen this movie I never kind of wanted to see this movie this definitely had Oscar buzz as most Robert Teniro dramas did it was a TIF movie I think that would make sense let's see where did this

yeah TIF before an October premiere so yeah wild truly wild Anyway, and then after Stone, he makes, as I return to my John Coran page, Oh God, Tracks. Tracks. A movie I will never see. I will full. You've been like, we should do a Tracks episode like way back in the early days. And I fully like pushed us against doing it because all I know is there's a shot in the trailer where a giant snake crawls over her. And that means I will never watch that movie. Absolutely not. this was one of those movies that was on a release schedule for like ever right it kept

getting delayed i think it was made like a good Weinstein co i think oh was that was that the thing it's Mia vaskiovska and will i ever say poor mia wasakowska's name correctly again maybe maryl insured that you will not um adam drivers in this movie it takes place in the australian outback and i just watched the outback season of survivor because now i'm someone who watches Survivor. I'm so proud of you, by the way. All right, in less than a minute, tell me your summary thoughts

on Survivor the Australian Outback. On Survivor Outback? Yeah. Tina is a legend and a queen. If there's anything problematic out there about her, please do not send it to me. Everybody else on that show is awful. I'm watching a different season now,

and I've kind of come to the realization maybe Survivor only cast terrible people. Survivor Amazon is not the most likable cast. The fact that you didn't like anybody on Australia besides Tina makes me wonder if, because like I remember, like Survivor Australia is a fantastic season and I loved it. So I don't know. If you can't appreciate Alicia wagging her finger in Kimmy's face. I liked Alicia a lot, but like I knew she wasn't going to last because they never showed her on the show.

or like shared her opinion in like a confessional that's fair um tracks also by the way has i think that's a movie with a trailer with um an m83 song in it you know as was you know what that does it tracks it tracks that m83 anyway and then um continuing the trio of john koran films that i have not seen that had Oscar buzz 2017's Chappaquitic with Jason Clark released in 2018

though but 2017 Tiff 2017 Tiff that I remember it played Tiff and I remember that's where it sort of

acquired its buzz people were talking about oh this movie is actually pretty good Jason Clark actually pretty good poor Kate Morrow with a terrible

blonde Bob wig playing Mary Jo Capecne and the ill-fated Mary Joe Capecany and wait, maybe I did see this movie. It's definitely one of those TIF movies where

I'm sure it was one of the ones that like we would have said this to each other where it's like just fully open on a schedule with not much competing against it where it's like, should we go see that? No. Yeah, and we're going to have breakfast. So anyway.

I'm going to eat a full meal instead. Yeah. Why don't we kick off this episode in earnest then? Now that we have set the stage for the painted veil. Once again, directed by John Coran, written by Ron Nyswainer, noted Oscar nominee for the movie Philadelphia, and then it all went downhill from there, based on the novel by Somerset Mom,

starring Our Queen for the Month of May, Naomi Watts, opposite Edward Norton, Toby Jones, her boyfriend at the time, Leav Schreiber, and Diana Rigg and Anthony Wong. It's really kind of... It feels like we've done so many ensemble movies recently, this is felt like the smallest cast movie that we've done in some time. Yeah.

Which is interesting because I definitely have some, a point of view on how that relates back to Naomi that we'll get into. But before we get into that, Joseph. Oh, boy, yeah. You are serving up our 60-second plot description this week. I am. I am. We'll see how I do it. If you are ready, I will start the timer. Yeah, why not?

All right, Joe Reed, your 60-second plot description for, the painted veil starts now. All right. So Naomi Watts plays a woman named Kitty Fane, who is from a sort of fancy schmance London family. This is all taking place in, I want to say, the 1920s. Let's see if I'm right. She marries Edward Norton, Walter, who she doesn't love him, but she needs to marry before her sister gets married anyway. Walter is a doctor, but not like a fancy doctor, a government doctor. And he gets sent to China where there is a cholera epidemic. But before this all happens.

They have this sort of, like, love with... Fuck, she meets Liev Schreiber. She fucks Leif Schreiber. He's, like, very, like, charming and whatever. Edward Norton finds out about it and says, Lady, you're coming to China with me, and I hope you get cholera from this cholera from this cholera epidemic. And she's just like, fuck.

And she tries to go with Leav Schreiber, and he's just like, nah, I don't think so. So she goes to China. He takes, like, literally, like, the long way to China. In this, like, like, whatever, sedan caravan. She, he wants her to get sick and dive cholera. He doesn't. he eventually does get sick and dive cholera. By that point, they've reconciled and she gets pregnant.

What did I spend too much time on? I spent too much time on her in London, huh? You spent 20 full seconds on London, which is about the amount of time the movie spends on London. That was one of the more runaway plot descriptions I've tried. And there's not a ton of plot in this movie. There's really not that much plot. Certainly not once they get to China. Once they get to China, it's like 8 billion scenes of her, like, standing in a doorway looking at cholera patients or standing in a doorway and looking at, like, orphans in an orphanage.

And ultimately, like, there's a couple really good scenes of her and Norton sort of, like, arguing and yelling at each other and being, like, very vicious toward each other. And then at some point, their relationship just sort of softens. And he sees... Basically because they fuck. yeah he sees that she's not the sort of like spoiled little rich girl he always thought she was and she sees that he's not the like boring dull you know dork or whatever that she always thought he was and they do reconcile and have a child that may or may not be his I think by the end we sort of are given to realize that like it doesn't matter if it's his kid

or leof schreiber's kid because she has she meets leif schreiber at the very end of the movie and her son is at like five years old at this point. And the kid's like, who was, mommy, mommy, who was that man? And she says, who was that man? And she's like, fuck him, he's not important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No one important. And Leah Friber clearly wants to, like, get with her again.

And she's just like, peace. Yeah. To show that she has personally grown because this man that she banged, which truly, like, I'm sure some listeners are like, laughing because you're like, she meets Leif Schreiber and fucks him. Truly, that's his only function in this movie. Which I think because they were dating at the time, and they started dating shortly before they were filming the movie, that knowing that relationship made it seem like Leif Schreiber

was so much outsized to what he actually is in this movie. He's barely in this. Leif Schreiber gives a quote at some point where he's like, yeah, Naomi got me cast on this movie because our relationship was so new that we were worried that, like, being apart for the length of that shoot, we wouldn't, like, continue the relationship. So that was interesting. Well, I mean, it's shot on location in China that kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah, totally.

I just, I love that he was so sort of, like, frank and honest about it when he said that. I saw them together at Toronto one time when I was waiting to interview Anne Heish and Sandra O. And I was sort of in the one sort of, you go to these hotels for these junket interviews at Tiff. And I was basically in like the hallway where all of the big interview setups were happening where like Vanity Fair was down the hall. They were doing all these video interviews. So like the queen of Katwe people sort of came through and I saw Lupita and I saw David a yellowo with their like various entourages. And what would Naomi and Leav have been in town for?

that year. Isn't Queen of Cotway the... No, that's not the Birdman year. No, but wasn't that the year where she was in like... Everything? I can't remember. Anyway. I forget. Honestly.

So it was her and Leahv and the kids and they just sort of like came on through and it was cool. It was nice. Was I in... I think I would have been in high school or like just graduated high school. I had a sighting of the two of them. um in new york and i was with my dad and like he realized who they were and i was i just said nope we are leaving them alone they have a stroller with them leave them alone that's sweet anyway um yeah sorry

i did such a poor job with that sixty second i think you gave one of the more entertaining ones and one of the most correct ones poor toby jones there's a lot more yeah there's more in like the orphanage side of it and like this is kind of of where... Also, there's a lot, there's a whole subplot about the Chinese nationalists leading up to the revolution in China. I know Chiang Kai Shek gets kind of name-checked at some point. And because Leah F. Schreiber plays a diplomat, some sort of member of the State Department, right? Who's like an expert in Chinese relations and is essentially like, yeah, like our British standing in Hong Kong or whatever the hell isn't going to, stand up to whatever

revolutionary actions are happening in China and yada yada yada and there's a lot of this movie where I end up sort of like interrogating whether this movie like what is this movie doing with its setting with the Chinese stuff is it window dressing I think the movie does try to make the Chinese revolution more than just

sort of a backdrop they try to focus on it a little bit. There's a scene at the very beginning when she and Leif Schreiber first meet, she and Norton and Schreiber and his wife go to see Chinese opera together. And it's very exotic. And I initially was just sort of like my little

like Orientalism switch flipped and whatever. But I was like, oh, okay. That's sort of the point of the scene, this sense that they are fascinated from afar by this production. right yes and that they are they're fetishizing it in a way and like i don't know if the movie's interested in enough in that as an idea or like on a character level to explore that with any real depth it doesn't but it does have a certain sense where you know it's not perfect but it's not

like the worst type of this that you've ever seen because like it doesn't have all of these gross characterizations, but at the same time, it makes all, like, the population that is suffering in China invisible at the same time? And that I had a problem with, where it's like, basically they just become cholera patients or orphans, you know, and like, that's not great either. Yeah. I mean, ultimately. I do, I do maybe think that it's more window dressing for this, like, marital story and I kind of my feeling that the problem the big problem with this

movie and when I read the production history of it it didn't surprise me is that it is an Edward Norton problem Edward Norton is known for having this like big ego and like he's the one that kind of stirred the project

and apparently like said that he really related to the character's journey like his internal struggle which is so funny because his character for most of the movie is an asshole exactly but also like he's not the story right like he should probably be more of a supporting character it's more about her journey it's about these people who are absolutely out of their depth meddling in i mean trying to help but also like yeah being westerners thinking that they can just go over to uh disease ridden erie

and be like the saviors of it, you know, like the ignorance of that. This is a man who hates his wife for cheating on him and wants to punish her so much that instead of taking the riverboat up to where they're going to be staying in China, like has them cross a mountain path with a, like, they're being carried in a sedan. So like the both of them have like these Chinese people carrying them. on those little sort of like, you know, elevated whatever across these like treacherous mountain paths and all, taking the long way, the long and dangerous way, just to punish his wife. Like, and then ultimately we're supposed to see him as sort of like a good doctor, and that's how she sees him. And that's how she ultimately sort of like, you know, falls for him when she, when their

relationship thaws was, oh, he's a good doctor, he's a caring person, look at him caring for all these people. And it's just like, yeah, but like all that stuff at the beginning still counts. But I just think that the movie's too invested in his journey in a way that feels really outsized to how little it is invested in her for the movie to essentially be hers for the most part too. Like it doesn't ever, like it feels like it's clicking into whatever this version wants to be whenever he is a part of the conversation. And I don't know why the movie wants to be that movie. Yeah. I don't know. And I think in the long run, she kind of gets screwed about it.

Because, like, you almost feel like you can't have a best actress conversation about this movie because, like, the movie's just not as invested in Naomi Watts. I don't know. I think that's right. I think, I think that point is pretty well taken. And it doesn't really give her the time to, I mean, like, she has the majority of the screen time, but it doesn't real, it's not as curious in her to give her anything to really do with what this story is telling. Yeah. So I think when we talk about why the painted veil had Oscar buzz, I mean, where do we, where do we want to begin that conversation? Do we start with the studio? Do we start with Warner, like the brief shining moment of Warner Independent?

The four years of Warner Independent. I mean, I think so because like when this was on their docket for Oscar season and we know what the movie is because of the novel and the original movie there's multiple versions of the story had been told on screen but most notably with Greta Garbo

like people know what it is it's a costume drama it seems exactly up Oscars Wheelhouse so people are predicting it but like Warner Independent kind of flubbed it and I think like this is a movie that is actively like not an Oscar nominee, because the campaign sucked. Yeah, I think if you look at Warner Independent, sort of comes around,

becomes a thing in 2004. Its first ever film is Before Sunset, which gets a screenplay nomination, yes? Yes, it does. Yeah. So I think when you talk about the big successes for Warner Independent as they go through the years and they were around for about four years, there was March of the Penguins wins Best Documentary Feature, 2005. Paradise Now gets a Academy Award nomination for Foreign Language Film.

The sort of big early success was Good Night and Good Luck, which got a Best Picture nomination, among other nominations in 2005. That's sort of the big kind of step up for them. They are ultimately, they say it's Warner Independent. Obviously, the Warner kind of negates the Independent. part, right, where they are, this was the era of, you know, big studios having their little independent shingles. Obviously, Fox Searchlight is one of the great examples of that, but like focus features was that for Universal and Paramount had Paramount Vantage. And at this era, this sort of mid to late 2000s, was kind of the, the era for all of those

little shingles to battle it out at the Oscars a little bit. And one of the of the most interesting things. They also get the Tommy Lee Jones Surprise nomination for In the Valley of Ella. And then, but one of the most interesting things is when the company is essentially dying, when it's about to get closed

up, one of the films on its slate is Slumdog Millionaire, which was a co-production, you know, with England for, I want to say, film four. And was very nearly direct to DVD. Was very nearly

direct to DVD because Warner Independent was dying. And then it gets sold to Fox Searchlight, their rival in studio dependent production companies. And Fox Searchlight manages to, I think because a lot of people sort of

don't love Slumdog Millionaire or think it's too sentimental or to whatever, I think the success story of that movie gets swept under the rug a little bit, a little bit. Like Fox Searchlight A plus work in getting that movie, not only just $150 million or something like that.

Yeah, a huge success. An Oscar, like a near sweep of the Oscars, essentially. It won how many of its nominations? Eight. Of nine nominations? Like, it was... Something like that, because it was nominated for two songs, so it didn't win everything. But it is the most...

Nothing has gotten eight Oscars since that movie. It was ten nominations, and they won eight of them. And one of those losses was to itself. right? Because it had two nominations in the song category. So the only category where it didn't win that it was nominated in was sound editing where it lost to the Dark Night. But it won, as you said, a total of eight Oscars and just a huge success story. And again, I think some of the criticisms of that movie is a little bit overblown, not entirely. There's like, the criticisms have merit. But, like, this is not some piece of shit movie that, like, you know, pulled the wool over

Oscar voters eyes to get... No, I mean, like, people did organically fall in line with that movie in a way that, like, I was someone who never liked that movie for a lot of reasons, but, like, it wasn't, like, this wasn't, like, Harvey Weinstein pulling over some type of bullshit narrative for this movie. This is a movie that won because that many people liked it. Warner Independent is one of my sort of like I have my little niches in terms of my Oscar fandom and I love this era of the studio dependent in, you know, indie shingles. I just, it's, it's, it was, you know, what a time to be alive kind of.

It was there was so many, they put so many indie films into theaters. And this was when I was still in Buffalo. So I was, the fact that I was able to get into theaters and see them was, I think, a testament to using that kind of studio muscle to get indie films into theaters. And it was probably something of a last gasp of that, right, before we get into the streaming era and obviously where we're at now with the blockbuster dominance of the multiplex. And I don't know, do you have that sort of same affection for? Oh, no, totally. Like, also rest in peace, Paramount Classics and Paramount Vant.

was also Paramount Classics. A little less indie and more, like, a tour-driven. I guess, yeah, the survivors are Sony Pictures Classics and which Sony Pictures Classics had been going on for a while, yeah. For a long time, they're probably one of the ones we're talking about, most removed from the corporate level of it because they have functioned so independently and on their own budgets.

And, like, they work on. They have more output than some of these. studios, but they definitely work on a smaller scale as well. Yeah. So I made up a little game for this era of Warner Independent Pictures, and I wanted to know if you wanted to play. Duh, of course. What if he said no, and I had to be like, fine. It just moved on. So I have taken a handful of the Warner Independent films from this era, as we said, 2004 to

2008, and I'm going to give you the names of anywhere from two to four characters that were played by the actors in the movies in question, right? So I will give you the name of three or four characters, and you will have to realize who those, yeah, it's not the characters from the movie, it's characters that the actors in the movie played in other things, right? Okay. Well, once we'll, once we get past the first one, you know. you'll know what I'm talking about, okay?

Okay. So the first question is only two names. The characters are Troy Dyer and Zoe. This has to be a more like contemporary Warner Independent movie. So what I'm asking you is who are the actors who have in other movies played Troy Dyer and Zoe? And then what movie were they in together for Warner Independent? So they both played these characters and were in a Warner Independent movie. This one, I don't know.

I'm trying to think that sounds like something that, like, Winona and Kianu would do. So, like, a scanner darkly. Okay, no, but you're on the right track with Winona. Troy Dyer is a character from the film Reality Bites. Oh, right. So Ethan Hawke. Right. And Zoe is the titular character from a movie.

Killing Zoe, so it's before sunset. Right. Ethan Hawke, Julie Delpy, before sunset. So do you now sort of get the vibe of what this name is? Okay, okay. So next question is, your characters are, your three characters are Pierce Patchett, Ryan Bingham, and Adora Krellan. Ryan Bingham is a name that I know. Adora, I know, too. That can't also be Winona Ryder. No.

Some of these characters are from television. Oh, okay. So the television characters I may not know. You definitely know this one, because you definitely saw this series. This is hard, man. Sorry. It's okay.

I have confidence in you. Give me the three names again, Ryan Bingham, Adora Kreller and... Adora Krellen and Pierce Patchett. Pierce Patchett. That sounds like a name I should know, or some bullshit name from a novel, but I don't... The first two characters are from Best Picture nominees. The third is from an HBO miniseries. Is it criminal? Is Adora Krellen, Maggie Gyllenhall? No. Adora Crelin is from Sharp Objects.

Oh, so it's Patricia Clarkson. Is it Good Night and Good Luck? Yes. Do you have any idea who the other two characters? Of course, her name's Adora. I'm going to bomb this. Pierce Patchett and Ryan Bingham. Just from knowing that it's good night and good luck. Any idea? It's got to be, is it Clooney and Strathairn?

Yeah, Stratharine played Pierce Patchett in L.A. Confidential, the pornographer, and Clooney was Ryan Bingham in, up in the air. Oh, all right. Next question. Their characters are Dr. Arnim Zola, Benoit Blanc, and Ryan Stone. Okay, I know what Ryan Stone is. I know what Benoit is. Talk it through. Talk it through. So our listeners can hear your process. This is going to make me so embarrassed.

I, because I know Ryan Stone, Ryan Stone's a woman. Yes. Benoit. We just talked about Benoit Blanc. What did we talk about Benoit? Why do I know that name? Benoit Blanc should have a sequel.

Oh, yeah, Daniel Craig. In Knives Out. In Knives Out. Ryan Stone is a female actor. She might be, like, Dr. Ryan Stone? She's... Yeah, I was going to say that. It's something like that.

Daniel Craig in a Warner Independent movie. Dr. Zola is an actor who's in the movie we're talking about today. Oh, okay. So Daniel Craig with either Leah Schreiber or Edward Norton or Toby Jones. Oh, it's infamous. Right. So how'd you get there? It's infamous, yes.

Sandra Bullock is Dr. Ryan Stone. Right. So Toby Jones played Truman Capote. Infamous is the other... The other Truman Capote movie that we could totally do. Right. All right. Next one, you get four names.

Mike Resendez, Nicky Grace, Adam Braverman, and Valerie Plame. Valerie Plame is Naomi Watts. is it we don't live here anymore yes any clue who the other ones are ruffalo durn and michael krause peter crows yeah microse zandes is mark rufflow in spotlight nicky grace is laura durn in inland empire and adam braverman is peter krausa on parenthood no parenthood on six feet under he's uh nate fisher all right next one you got some iconic names on this

one. Amelie Poulon, Poulogne, Poulon, whatever, French, Hannibal Lecter, and Ellie Eroway, Dr. Ellie Erewe. See, Audrey Tatu is obviously Amelie. I thought this would be a very long engagement, but, oh, is there a different Hannibal Lecter? Is Mads Mickleson in a very long engagement? It's not Mads Mickleson, but you're on the right track in terms of a different Hannibal Lecter. Brian Cox is in that movie Nope A lot of people played Hannibal Lecter

Who else played Hannibal Lecter that I'm forgetting Well you got the movie right It is a very long engagement Yeah it's a very long engagement It's Gaspar d'Ullio from Hannibal Rising Yep, yep because of Hannibal Uly how do we pronounce that name? Gaspard Ulei? I don't know

And Elie Araway, of course Jody Foster in contact In contact All right, your next one Jonathan Harker Abigail Williams and Tony Stark Okay, so

Robert Downey Jr. That first one's familiar. What was Robert Towney Jr? Imagine the name Jonathan Harker in a very, very bad English accent. So, Keanu Reeves.

Uh-huh, from what? Because it's a Dracula movie. Yeah. Keanu Reeves and Robert Towney Jr. And imagine Abigail Williams as a hysterical, um, pre-colonial woman.

That sounds right. Um, is that also Winona Ryder? Right. From, oh, so it's a scanner darkly, duh. Yes. Keanu Reeves, uh, Jonathan Harker in Bram Stoker's Dracula. Abigail Williams is Winona Ryder in The Crucible. And Tony Stark is Robert Tony Jr.

in Iron Man and such. All right, next one. Jack Mulligan, Loretta Lynn, and Jenny Curran. Well, obviously, Loretta Lynn is Sissy SpaceSec. Jack Mulligan is a name that I remember. I'm probably going to get these more of the Warner Independent movies because that's what I remember and not character names. Jack Mulligan is a character from a recent film that we both fucking love.

Jack Mulligan. Jack Mulligan, is that Widows? Uh-huh. Widows, Colin, no, it's got to be Robert DeVall. Does it? Or it's Colin Farrell. It's one of those, too. Jenny Coran might be easier if I pronounced it as Jenny.

Oh, Robin Wright. Right. What the hell were they in together? It's not that, no, that wasn't one. Warner Independent, the movie, where Robin Wright is animated as well. No. The Congress. The Congress.

No, no, no, no. No, this was based off of the novel by the person who wrote the novel that one of my, perhaps my very favorite movie of all time is based on. Your favorite movie of all time? I don't even know what that is. What movie do I talk about constantly? Few good men. No. social media and

here and everywhere The hours Right Oh Michael Oh it's a home At the end of the world Yes

Good job All right An episode we could do This next one might be tough I'll help you out Sheriff Sheriff Ed Tom Bell Meredith Vickers

And Reggie Love Meredith Vickers That I know It is Charlie's Theron Yeah. In what? In Prometheus.

What was the third name again? Reggie Love. I know that name too. Yeah. It's a movie we've talked about a bunch recently. Really? Okay. Especially for a recent episode that we did that, uh, where the author's novels were in question. Okay.

Why is that not? Clicking. Charlize's in Warner Independent movie. Reggie Love was a Oscar-nominated performance.

Okay. From the 90s. Is that Sam Jackson? No. It's step out of your gender essentialism for a second.

Oh. Oh, duh. God, this is so embarrassing. I don't know. Why can't I think of Warner Independent movies. There's not that many. Help me out on Reggie Love because I know it's embarrassing. I'm not getting this.

Okay. A lady, Oscar-nominated performance that was like the year before she won. Oh. Oh. Based on a novel by a very, very successful 1990s novelist who we did one of his films recently, like very recently, perhaps starring Matt Damon. I can't even remember what our recent episodes are. Oh, oh, duh, it is a, it's a Grisham novel. Right. Did a performance before they won. Who's that?

Grisham novel. Best actress nominee kind of came out of nowhere and everybody was just like, is that really Oscar caliber? But it is because it's a fantastic movie. What are the big Grisham movies? Time to Kill. Uh-huh. The firm.

Uh-huh. The client. Uh-huh. Oh, is it Sarandon? Yes. Yes. His character's name is Reggie Love. I never would have gotten that.

Yeah. All right. And so the lead in this played Sheriff and Tom Bell in a... In a Best Picture winner. Played what in a best picture one? Played Sheriff Ed Tom Bell in a Best Picture winner from the 2000s. Eastwood. Nope.

Tommy Lee Jones. Oh, God, freaking bless. It is in the Valley of Ella. It took me that long to get in the Valley of Ella. All right. This next one. Wow. Salvador Dali, Anna Karenina, and Selena St. George.

It's the jacket. It is Adrian Brody and Kirodi and Kiri. and Knightley. And who played Selina St. George? Great question. I don't remember anyone else in the jacket. Jennifer Jason Lee in Dolores Claiborne. Yes. All right, next one. Ava Gardner, Bob Fosse, and Young William Miller. Can you say those again? We had a...

Ava Gardner, Bob Fossy, and Young William Miller. Kate Beckinsale? Huh? In the aviator. Bob Fosse, Sam Rockwell. This is Snow Angels, the David Gordon Green movie. Bob Fossi, played by Sam Rockwell and Fossi Verden. Young William Miller is Michael Ongarano

and Almost Famous. See, you're getting better at this. I absolutely love that I can remember Snow Angels, but I can't remember the client. Great. Next one. Anne Darrow, Prince Rainier, and Mason Verger. Tim Roth is Prince Reneer.

Mason Verger is Gary Oldman Or Tim Roth Gary Oldman In a wonder independent movie I would say don't put Hang your hat on Gary Oldman As we've talked about with Hannibal Lecter

Different people in different Michael Pitt Uh huh from Hannibal Okay so Michael Pitt Tim Roth Oh it's funny games The remake Right and Darrow is of course Our Naomi Watts

And Darrow is also Naomi Watts In King Kong All right, last one, and then I'll put you out of your misery. Cookie Fleck, Jennifer Jolie, and C. Montgomery Burns. Okay, Jennifer Jolie is fully... The character in the movie, and I just can't remember what it is, is fully like a riff on trying to be like, this is what Angelina Jolie is.

Fleck, I know the Fleck one. think comedy think improvised comedy oh it is it's got to be for your consideration Jennifer Jolie is from a horror movie

Yes Parker Posey and Scream 3 Yes Cookie Fleck is who Cookie Fleck is Catherine O'Hara in one of the other Christopher Guest and show.

Yep, in best in show, yep. And C. Montgomery Burns is Harry Shearer on The Simpsons. Yes. Well done. That was the hardest game you have ever done. I didn't think it was going to be as hard as it was. I think I underestimated how sort of fleeting character names can be.

I think if I ever do that again, I will make... You did pick distinct character names, So I truly think it comes down to me being a dumb-dum. I think I could, I think certain ones I could have picked more distinct character names. I initially, I made some changes on the fly. Instead of Anna Karenina for Kieranitely, I initially had Cecilia Talas. And I don't know whether you would have been able to recognize that initially as. Of course I would.

Of course. How can I, Talis is very, I would never forget Brian-Talas. So I would get there. I would- All right. I'm going to force you to watch the client. soon because we can we can totally watch the client you need to have reggie love emblazoned in your brain somehow yeah yeah and get snow angels out of my brain yeah um all right back to the film warner independent though warner independent is like you would think that they could do better by

this movie after doing so well by good night and good luck just the previous year which like obviously very very different movies like good night and good luck had a whole pull political bent that like really made people passionate about that movie and this is just kind of like standard as much as I don't like the phrase Oscar bait this is very Oscar baity the type of thing that like they could have multiple nominations for this movie the problem was the post production on this took so long they didn't really get marketing materials out there enough and the screeners for this arrived so late in the season yeah that like people didn't really see this thing until the season was formed up, right? So it becomes an afterthought when people have already started to make up their mind about certain things. You can't really, even though Edward Norton got some nominations like Indy Spirit, you can't really hang it on Edward Norton. And it's still, like, at the point for him where his reputation is coming back around

because he's known for having such a huge ego, I don't think it really goes away, but something about Birdman made it seem cuddly or charming or whatever. Interesting that you mentioned the Independent Spirit Award nomination for Edward Norton. That's an interesting year for the spirits.

That was the year that Little Miss Sunshine won the big categories in picture and director. Norton is nominated alongside Aaron Eckhart, for Thank You for Smoking, who had been a Golden Globe nominee that year. Forrest Whitaker for a movie called American Gun that I don't remember. But it sounds very important subject matter and probably tragic. Somebody certainly dies in that film called American Gun. Ahmad Rosvi for Man Push Cart, which was, I recall that being a big sort of indie sensation that

year in a very sort of like limited manner and the winner that year was eventually an Oscar nominee Ryan Gosling in half Nelson that was sort of the great performance if there is an Oscar nominee in your field of indie spirit nominees the Oscar nominee will probably win and that was and the thing about Forrest Whitaker too is that for I'm guessing for some reason last king of Scotland would would not have been eligible probably either because it was to the budget was too high and passed what they set their limit at, or it was considered for them an international film. Yeah, I would imagine that that was not an American film. The spirits are, of course, for American films. Even if you're in English, but you're a British film, based on your

funding, they'll deem you international. Right. And of course, that was the year that Whitaker wins the Oscar for the last king of Scotland. The interesting thing also about Half Nelson is Sharika Epps, actually won Best Female League. God, she's so good. She's so good in that movie. It really bums me out that her career wasn't able to sort of continue on

in a major way after that. She beats out, among others, our friend Catherine O'Hara, for for your consideration, patron saint of Des Had Oscar Buzz, who you hear at the beginning of every episode. For your consideration, which, like,

I don't want to go too in depth on it, because we could talk about. I've always joked that it should be our last episode whenever we would ever dream of ending this podcast. It's so interesting that like for your consideration kind of became the Warner independent de facto like primary push because the painted veil wasn't ready. Yeah. Because like that's what that whole movie spoofs. Right. Yeah. And it's sad that it Painted veil does sound very home for Purim as a title. Sort of like very non-specific and also Ron Niswanner gets a nomination at the Spirits that year for Best Screenplay, ultimately losing to Jason Reitman for Thank You for Smoking.

But the other nominees that year include Nicole Halafziner for Friends with Money, great nomination, and Neil Berger for The Illusionist, the other magician movie starring who are friends, Edward Norton. Edward Norton. Yeah. So, interesting things all around. That's an interesting best director lineup at the Spirits that year. It's Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Farris win for Little Miss Sunshine.

They came from music videos. They, of course, directed, among other things, the Smashing Pumpkins Tonight Tonight video. They win. They beat out Robert Altman for a Prairie Home Companion. Excellent nomination. Ryan Fleck for Half Nelson. Great. Karen Moncrief for The Dead Girl.

And Soderberg, Steven Soderberg, for Bubble, a very interesting and odd and deeply indie movie. That was one of those ones where Sotaberg's just like, give me a budget of $1.50. And I'll just sort of come up with a movie. Not the biopic of my favorite absolutely fabulous character, as it maybe should be, because what the hell else is that movie about? Documentary about the physics of bubbles, I don't know. Sure, yes. The other awards body that gave the Painted Vale some love are good friends at the AARP Movies for Grownups Awards.

Best Grown Up Love Story nominee. Joe, do you have these pulled up what it is nominated against? I have it. It is insane. I would never make you guess this. Oh, my God, it's so weird. It is, like, it's always so easy to be like, this is a 30 rock TV show or this is a 30 rock movie, but truly these are 30 rock movies.

there's a nominee called Keeping Mum, which is like the poster is Maggie Smith with like a finger to her mouth like, keep Mom? How many movies is Maggie Smith going to do that are like this? This is so, this has big lady in the van energy. This has big, my old lady. Was that the movie that she was in? Yeah, she was literally in a movie called My Old Lady. The cast list on this, by the way, and they're all on the poster in sort of like diagonal backwards fashion, Maggie Smith, Rowan Atkinson, Kristen Scott Thomas.

The grown-up love story is between apparently Kristen Scott Thomas and Rowan Atkinson, which is the most... Who appears to have a priest's collar on in this poster, so great. And then Patrick Swayze. Lord knows. Damn, we're hunting this movie down. I'm going to make you watch it. A pastor. Keeping mum very much in the ghost don't do it. verse from previous episodes.

The plot description in IMDB, a pastor preoccupied with writing the perfect sermon, fails to realize that his wife is having an affair and his children are up to no good. This is absolutely a balderdash answer. Remember balderdash when you have to come up with movie plots? Yes. That was absolutely on a card. All right. So keeping mum doesn't win. Neither does the painted veil. Another 30-rock movie Aurora Borealis, the love story, is between Louis. Fletcher, Donald Sutherland, but the top build cast member is Joshua Jackson.

Joshua Jackson and Juliette Lewis, again, floating heads in a poster, Joshua Jackson wearing a very comfortable-looking cable in its sweater. Could literally be about anything because it is titled Aurora Borealis. Exactly. The tagline is love is the hardest job to hold. The plot description, a troubled young man struggling to write himself after the premature death of his father. So this movie seems to, the grown-up love story seems to be a subplot.

As you mentioned, Louise Fletcher, Donald Sutherland. The winner in this category is also a movie about young people who the love story is a subplot, which is the last kiss, the Zach Braff Jacinda Barrett movie. We are the keepers of the Jacinda Barrett's cinematic legacy here at this had Oscar buzz. So this is written by Paul Haggis, directed by Tony Goldwyn of Ghost and Scandal fame, starring Zach Braff. Zach Braff is torn between Jacinda Barrett and Rachel Bilsom in this movie. And if you're looking for reasons to hate Zach Brath.

It's a remake of a foreign language Oscar nominee, right? Right, yes. A Gabrielle Mucino movie. this movie. But the best the grown-up love story in this one is Blythe Danner and Tom Wilkinson. So Who, by the way, get

with and credit on the poster? I think they're his parents. I think that makes sense that they play Zach Braff's parents in this movie and they have a grown-up love story. Are they or are they not the last kiss in the movie the last kiss? Let's hope so. Let's

truly hope so. Yeah, what a wild and wacky year for that category at the AARP Movies for Grownups Awards. No fifth nominee because I guess James McAvoy and the camera for Last King of Scotland

were deemed ineligible. I suppose it makes sense because if you look at the big films of that year so you look at the best director nominee so it's Clint Eastwood for both flags of our fathers and letters from Iwo Jima he wins. Not a Love Story to be found there.

You can't give Dreamgirls a nomination for Best Grownup Love Story because all of those relationships are toxic. The departed, no. United 93, no. And the Queen, no. So, like, they really did have to kind of dig among the big movies for them.

Best movies for grownups that year was, best movie for grownups that year was the last king of Scotland. Again, not a love story to be found. Seven nominees that year. They didn't see the fountain? Why not the fountain? Seven nominees that year.

He transcends space and time for his love. Best movie for grown-ups. Last King of Scotland beats out flags of our fathers and letters from Iwojima. Again, old people love Clint Eastwood. Little Miss Sunshine. You could have gotten a grown-up love story out of Tony Colette and Greg Kinnear in that one, maybe.

Anyway, the queen, the illusionist, and our friend Aurora Borealis. one of the seven nominees for best movie for grownups that year. What a time to be alive, truly. Two other big things that we should mention. We started the episode talking about Alexander Plaa and his score for this movie. We both think that it is very good.

I think it's kind of shocking that it wasn't a nominee, especially because, like, Dipla would still go on to be a double nominee, if you're going to say he's getting nominated for the queen because it's a Best Picture nominee. But it was his first nomination. It was his first nomination at the Oscars. He had, he really hadn't been able to crack into, I mean, the original score and cinematography both seem to be very boys club categories at the Oscars, where they

will close ranks and sort of keep to their own counsel and only let in new, new people sparingly. They only get like one new recruit every year, right? So Displah took a while there. And then, except for what? I said just like cinematography often does too. Yeah, yes. And I, even after Displow won or got his first nomination, it took until the Grand Budapest Hotel, right, for him to win. So that's like

it's a long-ass time. that's the year that he's double nominated what else did he won for a shape of water too i love that score the score nominees at the globes that year were so much better than the oscars uh that not only did displew win for painted veil but another nominee that did not get an oscar nomination was clint mansell for the fountain one of like one of my top three favorite scores ever it's so fucking good i know that nobody understood the fountain and nobody wanted to give that movie any love, and that's fine. But you can very, at the very

least, recognize the fact that that score, A, slaps, and B, would go on to be in, like, every third movie trailer for the next seven years. Oh, my God, most memorably for me in the trailer for the mist, where

you hear it in the background of Marsha Gay Harden, very memorably saying, We Want the Boy. You can't go out. I won't allow it. Won't allow it? It was them. Brung down the final wrath upon us.

We want the board. That's what brung down the wrath of God. It's so good. Damn it. Anyway. Other nominees that year were Hans Zimmer for the Da Vinci Code. Sure. And, um...

A movie called Nomad. What was Nomad? I think this was a Miramax movie. It's a Kazan. A movie from Kazakhstan. Amazing. A Kazakh historical drama. Yeah, Weinstein Company.

Jesus Christ. The movies that they would get nominations for. Yeah. The song nominees that you are even wilder. So that's when Happy Feet wins with the Prince song, the Song of My Heart. But, like, that was when Bobby got a song nomination for Never Gonna Break My Faith. Obviously, listen from Dreamgirls is great. The Seal song from The Pursuit of Happiness.

And a Cheryl Crow song from a movie called Home of the Brave, an Irwin Winkler movie called Home of the Brave starring Jessica Beale and Samuel L. Jackson and 50 Cent and Christina Ricci, obviously. Wow. About soldiers returning from war. Sure. Okay. Yes. Again, was this a Weinstein Company movie? Um, no, MGM. All right. Sure. Possibly. That seems like an August, early September movie. Uh, December. They nominated it because Cheryl Crowe. Yes. Yeah, the Golden Globes will nominate stars for their best original song category in a way that the Oscars won't always. So, yeah, wild time. It was also, the painted veil also did well with National Board of Review. It feels like the most National Board of Review movie possible.

Was this the year that Melissa Etheridge won the Oscar, though, for an inconvenient truth? Yes. It's wild that the Globes wouldn't have gone for that, because she is also, you know, a name and star. I feel like they, I mean, I could look this up, but I don't think they do the documentary thing. Oh, that they don't consider a song the way that Oscar does. That they don't consider documentary. in any categories, that's interesting. No, I don't think it's that it's ineligible.

I just think the Oscar music branch is way more likely to nominate the documentaries. Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess award them in this case. That makes sense. National Board of Review, though, strangely, they did their best picture of the year and their top 10, but like they

did a true 10 and then pulled one of them, which was letters from Ewo Jima. Can I try and guess. The other 10? Yes, so you need to guess nine, one of which is the painted veil. So there was a 10, and one of the 10 was Iwo Jima. Letters from Iwo Jima, so you need to guess eight movies. All right, so Iwo Jima, painted veil, and then eight more.

The queen. No. No, wow. All right, that's wild. Little Miss Sunshine. Yes. The departed. Yes.

Dabble? No. I hesitate. saying babble. Babel is on there, yes. It is. Okay. All right. So those three. Pan's Labyrinth. No.

I'm already faltering. Okay. Did I guess Dreamgirls? Not that I heard, but it is not on there. Jeepers. Okay. So what have I got? I got three of eight? You still are waiting on. Yes, five more movies. United 93. No. That's stupid.

Okay, what is, their, their best picture was letters from Ewojima. Oh, flags of our fathers. Jesus Christ. Flags of our fathers is on there. They love Clint Eastwood so fucking much. Okay. We have three more movies that would be eventual acting nominations at the Oscars and one that is probably even more of this had Oscar Buzz movie than the Painted Vale.

Okay. All right, the three ones that got acting. acting nominees would have been well not the devil wears Prada probably. Notes on a scandal? Noots on a scandal. Yeah, man. Good job. All right. Al is forgiven.

Notes on a scandal. Pursuit of happiness? No. Okay, good. You might need to backtrack something you said. What would I have said? About what might not have shown

up on this top ten oh i thought i said that about babble did i say that about something else you did say it about something else okay that i don't think it would be oh devil wears prada devil wears prada no shit yep they put it in their top ten films of the year good for them that's fantastic good for them all right so one more that was an acting nominee one one that was a double acting nominee and one that is definitely a this had Oscar buzz movie. Blood Diamond. Blood Diamond is on the top ten

films. Bling bang. Blood Diamond got a nomination and one that would be at this had Oscar Buzz contender from 06. Okay. Bad movie? No. No. I think it's good.

I think it's good. I mean like is it like stodgy? Yes. Could it have been a much better movie? Yes. Adapted screenplay contender Definitely a contender for a performance that Was campaigned and supporting And people had feelings about that

But it was also Huh? That's it interesting This also came with like a really high pedigree and awards history That the movie was very show-me right? can it match that success, and it just was not prepared to. So from the director of an Oscar winner? Or maybe this is an adaptation.

Oh, all the king's men? No. Okay. Stage adaptation. Oh, history boys. The history boys. Yes, yes, that makes total sense. That makes absolute total sense.

Wow, what a crazy year. The history boys being in the now, National Board of Review's top ten films of the year is like quintessential National Board of Review to me. Yeah. History Boys, I have a warm spot in my heart for. Absolutely. Yeah.

Saw that movie when I was in New York City over Thanksgiving in 2006. Saw that one and Volver on the same day at two different movie theaters in New York. One of which is no longer there. the um whatever the hell was it called on Houston that's where I saw um

vulvaire sad anyway yeah uh what else what else do we want to talk about Painted Vale like I truly do think that like this is a case example

especially in the mid 2000s the level of which festivals and especially screeners played an important role in establishing Oscar contenders because this is a movie that I'm like

it could have been a costume nomination, it could have been a production design score, any of those number of type of nominations, even cinematography and it's like, it truly comes down to people not seeing the movie even though it was heavily predicted.

Yeah. Like this feels like screeners seem to matter less more and more to me these days. Yeah. Or like maybe they're just taken for granted, but, like, this movie could have been fine if it had played a festival and been actually seen by people or there were screeners out. And it didn't happen until right before the movie opened. Yeah. I do still feel like this movie falls victim to one of

the things that I talk about a lot on this show, which is the increased difficulty for costume dramas and literary adaptations to make headway at the Oscars unless they're really doing something different, right? Unless they're doing something like what Greta Gerwig does with little women, or what Joe Wright does with Anna Karenina, or do you know what I mean? Like, there are certainly exceptions to that, but I think it's difficult for, you know, it's, I think the days of Merchant Ivory, you know, dominating the nominations with Howard's End is probably behind us, which is... Or the movie just has to be better. That's the thing.

But it has to be like fucking great. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is up, and this isn't. Like, I don't, I don't think this is a terrible movie.

Like, we've definitely done a lot worse movies, but. Yeah. And it's, it's not setting the world on fire to the point where it's like when you already have a race that's really firmed up. And at that point,

it was, Dreamgirls was still considered a front runner, but you also have like the organic, exciting story happening with The Departed, which originally was not seen as an Oscar movie. Right. Or at least was not promoted to be, like, that was their backdoor, like, maneuvering. Yeah. And then you have, like, babble coming on heavy as, like, the grim global drama.

Yeah. And also, Good Night and Good Luck's previous year. Sorry, talked about it a bunch of this episode. Yeah, it's hard for a movie like The Painted Vale to get ahead. I think that's right The John Curran thing I guess is the last thing It's interesting to me that

Because he did the marital drama So well with We Don't Live Here anymore Is what got him the job on this movie Yeah Because that almost feels like part of the problem Like it should be more of Naomi Watts's story And like personal journey Yes

And it's or like I guess He doesn't make the costume drama elements of this, all that exciting. So I think that was an interesting directorial choice because that's not what works well in this movie,

I guess. Agreed. The marital drama side of it. Yeah. I think if that's a more compelling story, then we've got something else on our hands. I think that's right. I think the more interesting scenes in the movie, weirdly, are her and Toby Jones, and watching the two of them sort of as, I mean, Toby Jones isn't really an

outsider, but he's sort of kind of bending the rules and he's got the Chinese mistress and this whole thing and he's got kind of an interesting perspective on everything that's going on and he'll sort of like raise an eyebrow when he asks them why they didn't come up the river and he kind of sees through their marriage

right from the outset so he and Naomi have a couple really interesting scenes together I thought I like Toby Jones I do too But you're right that that's an interesting dynamic, at least, that works outside of the framework of what this costume drama is supposed to be. So, like, it makes it a little bit more exciting to watch that. Yeah.

Just sort of going through my notes before we hit the IMDB game, we talked about Orientalism, Diana Rig and a Wimple. Naomi with her blossom hat at the end. It was a very, very, you know, a hat that would have fit in very well with the NBC sitcom Blossom. Oh, a couple, I wrote out a couple of lines of dialogue from this movie that I thought really kind of landed with a thud. Like no real shade to Ron Nyswainer, who is, I think, a very good screenwriter. But there's one point where, and maybe it's the delivery on one of these, but Naomi, when early on in the movie where she's like, she asks him a question and he doesn't answer. And he's like, oh, I didn't really have anything to say. And she says, if nobody talked unless they had something to say, the human race would soon lose the power of speech.

And she delivers it in this like really kind of deadpan way that like, I'm just like, what is this line reading? It sounds so strange coming out of a human's mouth. And then later on, when they're having one of her arguments, she says, we humans are more complex than your silly little microbes. And I was like, that's amazing. First of all, your silly little microbes. It's the kind of line that you would hear in like countless movies about like frustrated wives and their husbands with their nose in a book all the time or whatever. Yeah. Or like in the third act of contagion.

Yeah. Also, the experience of watching a movie about an epidemic outbreak. We thought we were avoiding it by not doing. And we ended up doing an epidemic movie. Great. Great. Thanks. Yes. All those people dying of cholera.

Yeah. Anything else? Any last thoughts before we had into the IMDBA game? Um, I don't know. This one feels very specific to the things that we've talked about that have kind of run through Naomi Watts's career, where it's like, it's a perfect on-paper decision to do. for the role and it's like it's a lead role it's one of the ones that should have like thrust her forward but like the movie's so disinterested in her yeah that like i don't know this one's gonna probably feel like

the poster child for everything we're talking about with her career for me yeah yeah and i think coming off of the king kong thing where it was close enough to king kong that not in a lot of not enough time had passed for like appreciation for her in that movie to really kind of blossom into some kind of like well you know she you know maybe we owe her a makeup or something like that and then it wasn't wasn't enough time right alas should we move into the iMdb game let's hey how about the iMdb game how about every week we end our episodes with the iMdb game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for.

If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints, much like the Painted Vail was a free-for-all of cholera. Right.

Yes. The IMDB game and the time of cholera. Exactly, yes. Would you like to give her guess first? Why don't I give first? All righty. What do you have for me? So this one may be a little challenging for you.

I feel a little bad giving you a challenging one on the heels of this. I'm a real dick to me. Game. Yeah, I'll own that. My intentions were pure. I went through the Ron Nyswainter connection. Obviously, he, a screenwriter for Philadelphia, much celebrated. In Philadelphia, one of the more intriguing actors in that film,

was Antonio Banderas. So, yeah, Chris, why don't you hit me with your Antonio Banderas, guesses. Okay, Antonio Banderas. It's a matter of, do I think there has been enough time for pain and glory to show up on there? Recent movies are a bit of a challenge. But some stuff is starting to show. up. I'm still going to say no on that one for now. All right. So I'm going to say Avita. No, not Evita.

Y'all stupid. Mask of Zorro. Correct. The Mask of Zorro. Y'all, everyone's about to really piss me off if the mask of Zorro wasn't on there. I still feel like another Pedro L. Motivar is going to be on there. but I just wonder if any of those 80s ones are going to be on there he's got to be top build for something though I'm just going to say the skin I live in the skin I live in is correct I am in I knew a Pedro would be there

that is a terrible Pedro movie and really offensive I don't like it I think that was, I think I didn't finish that movie. I think I stopped it in the middle. I mean, the twists in that movie, people talk about how soap dish is offensive and anti-trans. This movie is fully, like, I think by not intentionally and like, it's trying to be subversive, but like, I do think that that is a transphobic-ass movie. Oh, wow.

Okay. Okay. Tonya Banderas, I have one wrong. There's got to be. action movie on there that's not the Zoro's. I'm going to say Assassins. Not a bad guess for Assassins. Assassin's has that

jiff of him leaning back and doing the... Is that what that giff is from? It's from Assassin. I'm pretty sure that's Assassin. That was like late 90s. It's either assassins or whatever the same era of Antonio Banderas action movie is. There's one that's like a sexy one. Richard Donner directed

that off of a story by Lana and Lily Wichowski. I did not realize that. Yes, that I knew. Stallone, Banderas, and our girl, Julianne Moore. If I'm wrong and it's not Assassins, it's definitely in like the same three-year period as Assassins. Yeah, so you've gotten two wrong.

So your years are 1999, so you're right, about within three years of Assassins, in 2003. Our good friend, 2003. 99 has got to be. be 13th Warrior. Yes, and seriously, fuck you for getting, for being able to remember. I will never, I will

always remember that because I saw that in the theater and was like, what the hell is this? Directed by John McTiernan. And like, I remember seeing it shortly after the big now, like, shitty mall theater opened. Oh, wow. Never saw.

Yeah. Directed by John McTiernan, and it says uncredited director, Michael Crichton. It was based on a Michael Creighton novel. Yeah. That whole movie has a whole production history. If I can place when and where I saw a movie, I'm not going to forget the movie. Okay, 2003. Yes, 2003. He is, well, I won't give you a clue unless it seems like you need. I'll let you make a guess first. 2003, you think it would be more top of mind because we spent so much time talking

about 2003. You would think. This is definitely a movie I saw in theaters, which is not a clue for you, but I'm just saying. 2003. He is top build, but he got the movie

sort of stolen out from under him by another actor who at this point, this year was like, had reached a new career peak. Once upon a time in Mexico, it's Johnny Depp because, like, that movie didn't really have any type of conversation for Oscar, but, like, I remember the, like, critical and audience response to Johnny Depp in that movie

was very much piggybacking on people already making a moment out of him because of Jack Sparrow. Right. This is the third in the mariachi movies, Banderas, and Salma Hayek are both back from Desperado. but this came out in September after Pirates of the Caribbean had opened in the summer seeing this movie in the theater audiences were fucking nuts for Johnny Depp like he and he's really good in this movie but it's a very it's Robert Rodriguez obviously

so it's like a very showy movie in general and like he is just hamming it up in this movie to great effect. It is another one of the mariachi movies but it totally gets shown up by his character where it's like he has like his eyes Ice couched out or something. He absolutely does. And then with the like goo dripping from his eyes, this like black goo dripping from his eyes, he goes and like just like mows down this. A ton of people with like machine guns. It's very like Robert Rodriguez like iconography. It is. It is the most Robert Rodriguez. This is one of those movies where like somebody like gets shot and there's blood spatters on the lens and he leaves it in. This is also, I believe the credits on this were like shot. what is shot, chopped, and whatever by Robert Rodriguez.

Like, it was very, like, very sort of, like, showy Tarantino-esque. Also, Mickey Rourke is in this movie. I think this is the movie where Mickey Rourke just, like, carries around a tiny dog the whole time. And it was just, like, his tiny dog. It's probably his dog, yeah. Or maybe I'm confusing that with Iron Man, too. But anyway, Mickey Rourke, whose face looks fully plastic in this movie. And I think this was also, remember when he was the bad guy in an Enrique?

a Glacius video. I feel like this was the same era. Is it a hero with Jennifer Love Hewitt? Yes, it is absolutely hero with Jennifer Love Hewitt, and he's the bad guy, and it's wild as hell. Yeah. He is. He has a little... Okay, I just found this still. It's Mickey Rourke in like a cowboy hat and a cow skull Bolero tie with a teeny little chihuahua in his arms, that he, I swear to God, just like... Naturally. He was like, I'm not putting it down. You got to shoot it. So Rodriguez is probably just like, okay. Yeah, what a wild movie. Oh, my God. Good job.

All right, so as has been the new tradition, you are evil, and I go somewhat easy. Okay, first of all, you cleaned up on that one. You did not struggle too bad on that one, so you don't get to complain. Avita is not there. Okay. That's not my fault. It's your fault for not looking up Avita enough on IMDB through Antoin. Donio Banderas's page.

Anyway. We're talking about a movie starring Naomi Watts, Edward Norton. Naturally, I went to Birdman. Yeah, you did. Who is the star of Birdman, but one, Mr. Michael Keaton. Keaton, great.

Oh, I love this. Okay. Oh, now. Michael Keaton should definitely have an Oscar. Should definitely have an Oscar. Absolutely. And you know what? That Birdman did so.

well, and Michael Keaton did not benefit from that in terms of Oscar, is bananas to me. I know. It's true. Okay. I'm going to guess Birdman is one of them. Is Beetlejuice one of them? Beetlejuice is not one of them. Okay. Is Batman one of them? No. Is Batman returns one of them? No, there are no that, no man's bat. No man's bat. All right. Well, I've guessed it wrong enough times that you're going to have to give me years. All right. Well, your years are 2015, 2016, and 2017. Motherfucker.

Look up old Michael Keaton movies, people. Jesus. All right. 2015 has got to be Spotlight. Spotlight. What are the other two years? Another movie that he should have had an Oscar for. Yes.

What are the other two years? 2016, 2017. Is one of those the fucking founder? The founder. Jesus Christ. We should do the founder. We'll eventually do the founder, and we can have the Michael Keaton conversation. Was it 2016 or 2017?

2016. So we're still looking for 2017. So after he makes the fantastic trilogy of Birdman Spotlight and the founder, Michael Keaton. And this is too early for Dumbo. I never saw Dumbo. I think I'm going to keep it that way. I watched it when I got Disney Plus. It's deeply okay.

It's like... Man, talk about... Unremarkable. Tim Burton... The trajectory of Tim Burton, especially in the past decade, two decades, especially everything after Sweeney Todd

has been like one of the disappointments of my lifetime. Yeah. All right, so Keaton makes the comeback with Birdman and starts to get cast in a bunch of things. Is he the lead in this movie or no? He's got to be second build. Okay. I'm going to look it up and see if he is second built, but you will know why it makes sense that he would be second build in this.

Uh-huh. He is. He is second build. Oh, oh, I know what this is. This is Spider-Man Homecoming. It is. Yeah. He's great in that movie.

He's genuinely great. It's a fun movie. Married to current Real Housewife of Beverly Hills, Garcel Bouvet, in that movie. Oh, really? Really? I liked that one. Everybody kind of flipped for Far From Home, and I don't get that. I think Far From Home is good. I enjoyed Far From Home. I think Homecoming is the much more memorable of those two movies. Yeah. It's a sweet movie. Though Michael Keaton, however, is a really crappy villain. Well, he's essentially a...

Like, everything to do with the villain movie, the villain in Homecoming blows, but everything else is good. He's a propheteer who is sort of wrapped in the shroud of blue-collar, you know, the government took our jobs. Yeah. Grievance. Yeah. It's a good movie. It's a good movie. It's a good performance. I was happy with it. Yes. All right. Cool. Can't believe Beetlejuice or the Batmans are not on. His MDB and the fucking founder is. That is so infuriating. Jesus Christ. We will put you all on indefinite timeout for that.

Yeah, seriously. All right, good. Good job. Good. So, next up on our Naomi Watts journey, and it's a journey, truly. Wait, what is our next one of the two? Our next one is Diana. Oh, boy.

Which I've never seen. Oh, boy. I'm very excited. Very excited for us to dive into Diana and for me to experience it for the first time. We'll have a special guest that you will have to follow us on Twitter to find out who that will be when we do the episode announcement. Yes, very fun.

Good job. Good stuff. Fun returning guests. All right. But I think for now, that is it for Naomi until next week, and that is our episode. If you want more ThisHad Oscar Buzz, check out our Tumblr at thisheadoscarbust.tumbler.com And please follow our aforementioned Twitter account

at Had underscore Oscar Buzz, Joe, Where can people catch you painting more veils? Catch me painting veils on Twitter at Joe Reed. Read is spelled R-E-I-D. Catch me avoiding cholera studiously on letterboxed. Joe Reed, Reed also spelled R-E-I-D. All right, and I am also on Twitter at Krispy File. That's F-E-I-L, also the same name under Letterbox.

We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Miebius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play Stitcher, and wherever else you get your podcast. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So please help us lift the veil on more listeners. That's all for this week, and we hope you'll be back next week for more Buzz and Diana. Bye.

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