This Had Oscar Buzz - 098 – Lee Daniels’ The Butler (with Jourdain Searles)

Episode Date: June 15, 2020

One year after giving us Nicole Kidman peeing on Zach Efron in The Paperboy, Lee Daniels delivered a late summer hit and Oscar hopeful with The Butler. Starring then-recent Best Actor winner Forrest Whitaker as Cecil Gaines, a White House butler to eight presidents, the film follows the arc of civil rights in America through the lens … Continue reading "098 – Lee Daniels’ The Butler (with Jourdain Searles)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. You're looking for some help? You don't broke our window.

He didn't stole our food. And now you asked for a job? I know how to serve. They say this new white boy's smooth. I am thrilled to be working with all of you over the next four years. Dr. King. What do your daddy do?

He's a butler. Young brother, the black domestic player an important role in our history. Something special is going on down here. And, uh, Ms. President? I know your son is a freedom rider. Turn the bus! Everybody out!

I never understood what you all really went through. You changed my heart. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast Taunted by a little ghost boy named Victor. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my first lady, Joe Reed.

Hi, in keeping with this movie, I will make no effort to properly impersonate the first lady that I am portraying. I will just be me dressed as such. Jane Fonda this entire time. Very true. We'll definitely be getting into the reverence. of any of these presidents or first ladies, perhaps. But right off the top, we have some exciting news. Jordane Searle is back.

We're so excited to have you back. Welcome back. I love having a guest. Glad to be back. We had such a great time with you last year, talking about Cadillac Records. And then, like, I feel almost immediately you were like, please have me back whenever. And you said you wanted to do the movie that we are here to talk to you. talk about today, which is

Lee Daniels the butler. Yes, the butler. A film written by that little boy from Buffy the Vampires there that's a big deal right now. Very much. Yeah, yes.

Danny Strong. His sort of post-Buffy career has been the most just fascinating slash perplexing slash like he's one of a bunch of Emmy Awards, like, it's just, like, and also is, like, a major, uh, behind-the-scenes

force at, like, Empire. It's very, it's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, good for him. And is not a stranger to, uh, depictions of presidents or would be presidents on screen. Oh, exactly. The first came up through the HBO movies, recount and game change before this movie so it's like a lot of that and then even like fictional like

dictatorships because he did the Hunger Games The mocking J movies right yeah he really really loves Julianne Moore as an authoritarian a demagogue yeah seriously oh boy I this this may be the only movie that he's written

that I've seen oh there's some interesting stuff in game change I don't think it's the type of movie that's like vice where you really have to question okay in depicting these people are you trying to get us to sympathize with that my memory of game change is that it does walk that fine line

where it's like not sympathizing these awful people at all but like you know really getting into the Sarah Palin ethos right yeah Palin definitely comes across as a sometimes fascinating monster, but definitely like a monster in that. The people that are best served weirdly by game change

are Nicole Wallace and Steve Schmidt, who you, like, you will see on MSNBC today. You know what I mean? Like they sort of, that movie really sort of helped facilitate their transition from, like, Republican foot soldiers to, you know, sort of tweener, we're going to be sort of liberal media's gateway to, you know, middle-of-the-road conservatives. So if you want to say that that movie, you know, sort of soft-pedaled anybody, I would probably

save them. Because, like, even McCain doesn't come across super well in game change. And it's very easy for popular entertainment to make McCain into, you know, somebody who's, you know, respectable and noble and this kind of thing. I've been watching a lot of presidential movies lately, and this one, this one is definitely more, no, actually, I prefer this one over a lot of that. Like, I was about to say so. I prefer this one over a lot of the ones that I've seen.

This is a conversation I totally wanted to have with you, and I was so interested to see what you had to say because I know you've been watching these movies and they've been driving me crazy okay JFK is like unwatchable I don't understand oh wow I love JFK I have to I have to stick up for my movie I like adore that movie I love JFK too but it is mired and like into like this whole like presidential obsession thing that I don't think the butler does the butler is Here, I kind of take it as, in terms of all the presidential, like, cameos that are in this movie, it's reverential, but it's not... I think the marketing is more into the presidents than the movie is. Right.

Which I guess when you get all these stars, it makes sense that they would do it that way. But it's weird to me, like, looking at the marketing and then watching the actual movie, and it's just like this parade of just, like, disappointing white men. Well, I think that's the fascinating thing about the butler is I don't imagine that Lee Daniels went to cast those roles and was like, I'm going to cast the dumbest choice as possible. Like, I don't think that that was sort of his intention. But I think the sort of the ill-fittingness and the like sort of crunchiness of all of those casting choices and performances adds up to, I think, Chris, what you were saying, which. is it is an irreverence to it and they're for as much as like this movie is about how like the marching tide of history and everything like that like the actual presidents don't change super much like they're still mostly like uh flawed feckless boobs in effectual right yeah exactly

like it doesn't present them in any type of positive light but it is a little odd because you have all these celebrity castings that make it feel like significant in a way that is drawing attention to itself but then all of the actual scenes maybe with the exception of Jane Fonda is very downplayed and what you can see is that while Cecil's in the room with these people they're doing some pretty insidious things or if it's like JFK he's so ineffectual and like impotence not the right word but it's just him laying on the floor like not knowing how to act, not knowing what to do or think. Yeah, Fonda's Nancy Reagan is the only time in the movie where I was just like,

all right, why are we taking pains to like confer virtue on this person? I never felt that with any of the other presidential figures in the movie. I don't know if it's just me, but... I didn't think it gave her virtue ultimately because if anything, it makes it seem there's the question of maybe she is trying to do something that she seems positive but then when Cecil and his wife actually go to this event that she invites him to it is revealed that it was all for show yeah that's true that's gross yeah it's interesting that i mean out of all the movies that i've watched i watched nixon jfk i watched w and i watched

vice again which i why would you do that to yourself I even watched like stuff like all the president's men and stuff like that just like Oh and the worst one that I watched Primary Colors I absolutely ate that movie I also love that movie Sorry But it's all this stuff of being reverential to the president or the position of the president Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Which this movie feels like it's half in, half out, again, because of those celebrity castings to me. Yeah, I actually find it to be a very interesting conversation about, you know, idealism and, you know, believing in the president, in the presidency, and the whole thing. And what happens when you stop believing? I think that that's interesting. Mm-hmm. I like that that is all wrapped up into a family drama, basically. Everything to do with the family in this movie, I really enjoy even the more, like, hardcore sentimentality of it than anything to do with the presidents.

Though I don't think all the presidents are bad. I think Alan Rickman is good. In terms of a performance, like, yeah, yeah. But it's interesting. And I'm curious to hear. what both of you think, but that sort of irreverence towards the presidential

figures, how does that square with the end of the movie and where the note that the end of the movie leaves off with Obama showing the you know, the yes you can't speech and all that, like that I thought was interesting.

That is a, that's a very deflating moment for me in the movie because I will go to the mat for this movie, which is why I immediately, because I was watching it, because I was doing a whole thing on the previous decade in Black film, and I realized that I had never watched the butler, and I watched, and then immediately after I did, I was like, I need to talk about this movie. Gotta get it out.

I think you're right also that it's deflating. This movie has about five different endings, and the proper one to me is, like, the way the movie shows. should kind of, what the big emotional moment should be, is Cecil rejoining his son in the protest? I totally agree. That is exactly where I wanted the movie to end, and I was so mad that it kept going. It also feels like, it makes this movie feel like it happened a hundred years ago. Like, it feels just like the gulf between how we felt about the Obama election. then, even in 2013, even sort of five years into that presidency, versus now is huge. Yeah, especially the optimism of that moment.

It seems so far away. Yeah. It definitely dates the movie, too, in a way that I think not ending on that note would make it feel not more timely, but less locked. in a moment. Less reactionary to that moment and more, you know, a movie on its own. Because like I said, I think the family drama stuff is the most interesting thing. That is the stuff, though, that ties it most closely to the source material, which is this Washington Post article about the real life figure who had been Butler for eight consecutive U.S. presidents. And that the actual true story with like how his wife died the day before the 2008 election.

and all this stuff. So, like, I get, I certainly get why all of that stuff is in the movie, because if you're adapting this article, you sort of, your expectation is you're going to keep in the hook of that article. But absolutely, absolutely, it sort of runs incongruously with most of the other stuff in the movie. Yeah. Yep. I'm sure we will get into it, but we're already getting a little in the week,

with the movie. So just to recap, we are here to talk about Lee Daniels, the butler, directed by Lee Daniels, written by Danny Strong based on, like you mentioned, the Wapo article by Will Haygood, movie stars Forrest Whitaker, and famously Oprah Winfrey, also the massive cast. Take a deep breath for this one so I can get it all in there. David a yellowo, Elijah Kelly, Yaya da Costa, Cuba Gooding Jr., Lenny Kravitz, Terrence Howard, Coleman Domingo, Mariah Carey, not saying a Damn word. Adrian Lennox, the great Adrian Lennox, Vanessa Redgrave, Alex Pettifer, James Marsden, Robin Williams, John Cusack, Alan Rickman,

Jane Fonda, and Leav Schreiber on a toilet. Yes. The movie opened wide in the middle of August in 2013. That's the primer. I totally forgot Leah Schreiber was in this movie, and I watched it yesterday. Okay, it really is easy to this. Reuter is fully the worst president in this movie. That's the one where it's like, okay, this is a Halloween party with all of the makeup and like, you know.

How dare you leave off Minka Kelly as Jackie Kennedy and Chris? Sure, sure, sure. That's who that was. Yep. Yep, that's who that was. Sure, Minka Kelly. Saying barely more than Mariah King. But yeah, Lee Daniels the butler, to get us back on track, we should do the 60-second plot description.

Jordane, since you are our guest, are you prepared to give us a 60-second plot description of Lee Daniels, the Butler? Yeah, I'll probably be very minimalist. That is perfectly fine. We are dealing with a biopic here that is somewhat easy to distill down. So if you are ready, your 60-second plot description, The Butler starts now. Okay, so this is the story of Cecil Gaines, a man who grew up on a cotton farm, and then his father got killed by Alex Pettifer, and then he became a house negro, and he learned how to serve

white people, make them feel good. Eventually, he moved to the White House and started, like, moved to the White House, and then started serving all the presidents and then his son became a radical and there's conflict there and his wife is played by Oprah and she's an alcoholic. All right. An alcoholic who wears some of my favorite costumes in recent movies. Like the fact that... I love her clothes.

Lee Daniels is like, well, we got Oprah. So we have to put her in a disco suit and then a track suit and then... I've seen. those disco suits in person they are as spectacular in person as you could imagine wait did they tour the country with the disco suits and did you go like see them at like a whistle stop what how did you see these in person no it the ruthie carter did the um costume design and i saw an exhibit of all of her costumes in person and that's the costumes they chose from this movie do you remember before this movie came out i think i'm pretty sure before there was even a trailer for it they

released a promotional photo and it's Oprah on the couch with like Terrence Howard and he's sort of like lasciviously like touching her leg and she's got a cigarette and she's sort of like and it's like a floral dress and she looks like such a flusy it's just like it's and I think that was like the only promotional photo of this movie for like months and everybody lost their mind for like very good reason it's it's an amazing an amazing promotion still. And I'm not sure if we ever get that like moment exactly in the movie either. It's one of those things where it's just sort of just like, it's, you know, a photo that tells a thousand things. And none of it has to do with the actual butler butler. So, yeah.

Oprah in this movie, God, I love her so much. I think she's great. She's so amazing in this movie. She's a gift. She's a life force. She's just, she makes, this is the thing that I act, that I really, I think this movie, I think a lot of things about this movie, sort of all over the map about it. But I think one of its biggest virtues is that it tells this story that's, that can feel very like, you know, PowerPoint of history. And it's, especially with Cecil's voiceover, it seems forest gumpish at times in the way it's sort of like walks you through these like signposts of american history 20th century american history but the the through line of that is this family which feels very messy it's like very satisfyingly messy right and Oprah I think is the best indication of that where like her character just isn't going to conform to the kind of movie that you think this is. And it makes it so much more interesting. And it makes her, she's just like she's not a simple character. She's not a neat and tidy character. And all of those ragged edges that she's so good at playing,

complicate this movie and sometimes make you feel like you're going crazy because, like, the dissonance is so strange. But, like, that's absolutely to the film's benefit. she oh my god the only before this the only Lee Daniels movie I liked was the paper boy

and I was thinking whenever I saw Oprah I was just like thinking about the paper boy and how and how sweaty it is and how messy it is and how not you know it doesn't have a lot of sentiment in it and she's and she's

giving me a little bit of that in a movie full of sentiment right right yeah as much of that as you can get in a movie that can be played in high school history classrooms, you know, because it's very much like a PG-13 movie that doesn't walk the line past a PG-13 rating other than Cuba Gooding Jr. having like a fissing joke in the movie. Yes. God. So like, and that was the thing because that promotional still you're talking about, Joe, all of the quotes from Oprah were her like,

nervous and scandalized that she had to like make out with Terrence Howard in a movie and like made you think that it was going to be far more salacious than it ended up being and of course it's only a year removed from the paper boy as Jordane mentioned where it's like Nicole Kidman is peeing on Jack Efron and like I love that movie we did an episode on it and like the first half of the movie I am all there for it but then when it has to get super plotty yes I It loses me. Once we enter the swamp with John Cusick, by the way, can we talk very briefly about John Cusack's absolutely bananas 2010s, where he makes the Paperboy and then is Nixon in the butler, and then also gives that, like, wild and insane performance in Shirek. Like, it's truly... As the preacher. Has been quite the decade for John Cusack.

He is a crazy person. I kind of wish we talked about him the way that we talk about Nicholas Cage. Yeah, kind of. I don't know. I'm more scared of John Cusack. And I remember, I don't remember who, I think it was the guy who played machete. I don't know why I'm forgetting his name. Danny Trejo.

Danny Trejo. Danny Trejo, I remember him on a podcast saying that like the man that he's most afraid of, like, working with was like John Cusack. That was like the scariest fan that he had worked at. Also, apparently, like, nobody in Hollywood likes him. It's the other thing that I always heard about John Cusack, which is very fun. And never really has. Obviously, Lee Daniels is fine with him because he's done multiple movies with him.

Yeah, it's true. I mean, Lee Daniels likes some unhinged energy, which is interesting, because this movie doesn't really have a lot of that. I do love that it begins with the idea that his parents are David Banner and Mariah Carey was just a lot for me to take it. A silent Mariah Carey. A silent Mariah. And just David, I mean, David Banner in movies, he's also in Black Snake Mone,

because I think David Banner is only in movies like this. Movies. And I forgot that that was Alex Petty Fur. I mixed him up with Taylor Swift. boyfriend, but he's the one that's in Harriet. That's Taylor's boyfriend. Yes. Yes. Yes. The second I saw

Alex Pettifer, I literally wrote down in my notes, here I thought I was done with Alex Pettifer for good, because we had talked about Magic Mike several weeks ago, and it was very much like a, oh, remember when Alex Pettifer was a thing, was a name

we needed to know back then? And I was so confident, I was just like, well, that's the last time I'm ever going to have to think about Alex Pedifer and then this movie shows up and I was just like oh my god here he is again

he ruined Magic Mike and at least he's not in this movie long enough to ruin it well in Lee Daniels the butler double XL he won't be in it and it'll be a better movie

for it so am I crazy or was he the original person offered the Zach Efron role in the paper boy too oh is that true I feel like that was a thing I believe that

I believe that so glad that it's Zach Ephron though, perfect casting. Right, right. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. The thing about that opening scene, or that opening several scenes, is, and I watched it again this time, I'd obviously seen the butler back when it first came out, but watching this again, when Vanessa Redgrave sort of, you know, looks up from the porch and goes

into the field, and I was just sort of dreading, I was just like, oh, God, this is going to be another, right? It's another scene where the kindly white lady in these horrible sort of abusive settings is going to show a modicum of kindness and the audience is going to confer all of this sort of good feeling onto this person because it's a glimmer of kindness in the middle of this. And Daniels undercuts that pretty quickly and kind of repeatedly where she's not sweet. She's not nice. She does this thing where she sort of brings this child into the house to sort of, you know, you can imagine that part of her motivation could be to shelter him. But like, there's not sweetness there. There's not kindliness there in

her performance or in the way it's written. And I thought that sets a good and interesting tone for the movie. Yeah. Yeah. There are so many people that are in this movie for a small amount of time. And for it to be Vanessa Redgrave of all people, I just assume that if you need an old woman to be in a movie for a short amount of time, it's going to be Lois Smith. Lois Smith is way too warm, though.

You need a Vanessa Redgrave who, like, you can't have any type of... Lois Smith telling Cecil Gaines to find the minority report is something I would want to see. this movie has one of my favorite conflicts um because i i talk about well i talk about black movies a lot and something specifically that i don't like about some of the more really like popular

oscar baby black movies is that it doesn't really have black people disagreeing it's like white people bad black people like are right which i mean true but like also there needs to be some kind of like argument between it, which is why I really like to lose from, I don't even know if it was this past year a couple of years. Yeah, it was a past year. It's great. Yeah, because it was like a conflict between like a kind of like Barack Obama kind of like respectability politics kind of black person and then a younger kid who like is like toying with the idea of revolutionary ideas. I don't think that the way that they talk about the ideas is good. But I do. think that it's an interesting conflict. But in the butler, it's really interesting because

it's this man, this father who's trying to, you know, take care of his family and he works for these white people and you think, okay, well, this is just a job, but he, no, he genuinely believes in these white people for such a long time. And because his son, you know, had a different experience, you know, and is younger. And, you know, the younger, the younger, the younger, the young or the more radical, which is why, you know, I say prison abolition and, like, older people are just like, what? So just this conflict between, like, it's like the classic kind of, like, black conflict that's not as much of a conflict as people make it out, you know, you're either a Martin or

a Malcolm, which I mean, it's more complicated than that. But I like the fact that this movie really deals with the question. And also not just having Cecil being the opposing one, but also the brother, too, who is just very, like totally buys this American thing, goes off to war and everything. And meanwhile, there's just a sign. Can we talk about that character for a second? First of all, I love Elijah Kelly so much. And I think he's so, he's such a spark of life in this movie, in this sort of, you really feel like you understand. the father-son dynamics in this because it's a conflict it's a familiar kind of a thing you really feel

like okay i've got a handle on this and just as sort of Oprah is kind of an a chaos agent in this movie so is elijah Kelly's performance there was i saw a interview with the cast although elijah kelly was not among them but Oprah had said that he basically improvised most of his lines in this movie and you can tell it's just like there's such an unexpectedness she said he improvised the line after the big you know centerpiece argument where like

Oprah slaps David O yellowo and she calls Yaya De Costa a low-class trifling bitch everything you are and everything you have

because of that butler now you take that trifling low-class bitch and get out of this house and kicks them out of the house that's that part where the brother makes the

guess who's coming to dinner joke and he says I like in the party daddy what's that movie did look who's coming to dinner every time in a joke Carol came to dinner Carol's coming to dinner

and apparently that was just like off the top of his head and just like in the middle she's like it was so necessary to have that little bit of levity in the middle of this very very heavy scene and I just loved him but like my question to you guys though is, is he playing that character queer or is he playing that character just naive to the point of being, like, simple?

Like, I didn't, I wasn't quite sure what the character is. I think he's an intentional goofball, because that's the family dynamic. He's got the little brother dynamic the whole time, even when you see him when he's 10 years old. Yeah, yeah. I think he's more of, like you mentioned, the chaos agent, he's more intentionally so. And I think he's the one in the room that's got everybody's number and lets them know in more, like, subtle ways, I guess. Yeah, he has a very, like, I sometimes scenes in all in the family when, like, black people are around and they're just, like, messing with Archie. That's kind of the energy that he has.

Like, he doesn't like white people, but it's like he doesn't. He doesn't turn that into an ideology. He just turns it into jokes. Right, right, right. Which, like, I mean, I don't know. I was thinking also about dead presidents while watching this, which I don't know, if you have not seen, you should see. Because, I mean, it's all about this question of, you know,

why are we going to Vietnam to fight this white people's war? And then, oh, no, we come back from Vietnam and people still don't give a shit about us and we still don't make any money. Like, he just goes and has, like, this whole journey that we don't see. Right. And we also don't know, like, how he felt when he got there. I like to imagine that when he got there, he was just like, oh, shit. Yeah.

Yeah. No, his character arc, which happens mostly off screen, is really fascinating to me. And I also just feel like we should cast Elijah Kelly and more things. I think he's such a, like, you know, a spark of life. in these things. Oh, love him in hairspray. Yes, love him in hairspray. He was so good in The Wiz Live on NBC or whatever it was. I need

to watch that. Oh, he's so good in it. I really loved him. That's great. Yeah, it's I think for as much as this movie I mean, the tone really does sort of like veer all over the place, which is a thing to behold. But the bright spots in this movie,

I think are really bright spots. Yeah. And like I was mentioning, anything to do with the family dynamic, I think, is done really well. And like, it can pull off the fact that they have

David a Yellowow playing like 15 years old at one point in the movie. But yeah, everything about this family dynamic is so specific. And I think you can attribute a lot of that to Oprah, right? She's playing a very specific kind of way. woman with a very like specific way of communicating or not communicating um and like she has a

whole arc with her alcoholism in ways that like even someone like Elijah Kelly who really only has a few short scenes throughout the movie like you see the dynamic play out in even just his small moments yeah um oh my god with how this whole family separately relates to each other uh the stuff with Terence Howard I love it yes oh the like just like passed out in bed i love it i mean i like i love this performance not just because i think that it's great but because i don't know i barely ever we talk a lot about like representation in the media that's been like the whole thing for like years now but i personally love this representation of a depressed alcoholic black woman who just cannot she just can't most of the

time. I really relate to how much she can't. To the point where like she can't form sentences that are more than like three words because she just has so much in her head and it's all yelling at her inside her own brain. Yeah. Meanwhile, she is drunk off her ass and can't cope with all that's going on in her life. Her monologue where it's her in front of the mirror with that lipstick, like it's the tiniest microphone. in the world. Yes. Yeah. Is sensational

and like she barely speaks. Neither one of you two watches, maybe, I don't know, I don't think you do, Chris. The Real Housewives franchise? No, I don't. Okay, so this is probably going to be lost in you, but like if anybody's listening,

there is such a NeNe and Greg Leek's vibe to Gloria and Cecil in this movie that I just, somebody out there listening needs to, okay i i understand i understand that reference like like she's so like she's such a big personality and she's sort of like and you sort of sometimes wonder just sort of like what brought you two together and like and gregg leeks is such a sort of like very low-key very kind of just like you know receding and sort of lets her be the show and there's definitely a lot of that

in their relationship yeah um so what do we think about for us Whitaker's performance. It's kind of a slow burn, but I do ultimately think that he's great, especially in like the back third of the movie, where it feels like Cecil is finally

dealing with all of the things that he's been burying emotionally. And one thing, we'll talk about the makeup in this movie. I also think for the amount of old age makeup that is on him, that he can act through that makeup

is so, like, technically impressive to me. I think he's really good in this movie. It's, I mean, you're talking about a character whose defining trait is his ability to recede into the background, right?

The whole thing about, like, when you're in the room, it should feel like the room is empty. And he, Whitaker seems to really take that task to heart and really works hard at that And obviously then, with that being the baseline, my favorite moments are always going to be the moments where, like, his personality shines through or sort of a willfulness shines through. And most of that is when he's being kind of petty towards his son, where like when the son calls and he takes the phone and he's just like, you want to be ashamed of yourself calling your mother for money.

He's like, that's my money. That's the butler's money. And you're not getting any. And I was just like, oh, like, I love that he's like. making that callback to this argument that they had like years before and um watching him sort of like simmer at that dinner table argument and then the first thing that he brings up basically is that ya ya's character belched at the table which is just like of everything that's going on it's just like you're really going to go for that low blow but like he he's very he's very proper

Like the whole thing where he's where he's like in the interview with Coleman Domingo who is great in everything. I love Colman Dominguez. Yeah. And he starts talking about, I don't know, decanters. Yes. Yes. Oh, and Conyc. And in my opinion, the French are the ones who do Cognac best.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was also just, I was just sitting there just like, what the fuck is he talking about? But like, clearly that was the. tack to take with Coleman Domingo's character, because that's sort of, you know, you get the sense that that's what endeared him

to him. Coleman Domingo, one of, I think, like, four or five cast members in this movie, who then went right on to make Selma right after this, because it's Oprah, a yellow-o, Coleman Domingo, I think Cuba Gooding Jr.

is in both of them, and I think there might be one other person, but. Yeah. There's a huge cast, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, and we haven't even talked about Lenny Kravitz yet. Ah, Lenny Kravitz. Lenny Kravitz is so handsome in this movie.

He's so fine. It's so distracting. I don't even remember, like, he was kind of like the nice one, you know, the soft-spoken, thoughtful one. He was the non-salty one of that little, like, yeah. Yeah. Because, I mean, Cuba Gooding Jr., was the one who won't stop talking, which is, you know, his best kind of role. Yeah. Oh, totally. And usually won't stop talking about sex.

Yes. Yeah. It's just nice to see him. I kind of wish, like, he's definitely got more work in the 2010s. But I just wanted to just see him as like a regular presence in movies. Just, I just want him in all of the movies. Yeah, I'm fine with Cuba Gooding Jr. actually prefer him when he's not the star of the thing because he's just so and just show up and yeah because he's funny and not not all funny actors should be leads right he as he learned yeah yeah it's a really it's a fantastic cast drawing from like a whole lot of different um sort of types of actors you have people who were you know more famous on TV, you have a bunch of Oscar winners.

Like, this movie has a ton of Oscar winners in it. A bunch of people who are, you know, stage actors primarily, character actors, your Mariah Careys, who are, like, you know, giant pop superstars. Reality television runner ups. Love the Clarence Williams III. Yeah. But, yeah, Chris, you bring up an important point, which is the fact that Yahya da Costa is in this movie credited as, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alafia because she was in a relationship with a man whose last name was Alafia and was not married to him, but still took his last name for her professional name for a couple years there and then went back to DeCosta. So now she's back to DeCosta. Runner-Up America's Next Top Model, season three, wore a t-shirt that said Respato on it so that she could get a dig in at somebody who carved a mean message into a pan of brownies. truly iconic television, if ever there was so. I fucking love Yaya, and I think she's so good in this. She is. Yeah, yeah, she's great. I loved it. I really

I enjoyed the whole, the training scenes where it's like, this is how you learn to be a freedom writer. I do not, I do not like Jesse Williams, and also funny enough, I did not know. Like, for the first time I watched this, I was like, why is a white

man telling them what to do? And then I realized it was to see Williams. Yeah. He, I don't know. I don't watch Grey's Anatomy, so I didn't know who he was. So I was just like, who is this weird man with this weird voice? And what? Where did he?

Would this have been after Cabin in the Woods? Right? Cabin in the Woods is 2012. Oh, yeah. I always forget that that was him in that movie, too. That movie is, like, stealthily, like, huge cast because it's him and Hemsworth. and Fran Cranes from Dollhouse. And I can't remember who else fills out that central cast.

But, yeah, Jesse Williams. Gillian Jacobs? What's that? I don't think. Is it Gillian Jacobs? No, but she looks a lot like Gillian Jacobs. Misremembering. Okay.

I'm going to look that up. You guys talk amongst yourself. And I love the part where, like, they make that white man who looks like Tab Hunter really uncomfortable. Yes, yes. Yeah, he does look like Tab Hunter. That whole montage is really interesting and well composed because you have all of that up against the butler staff of the White House,

basically preparing some type of state meal. It's really just impactful filmmaking. Yeah, that's that sort of triple. cut between the training and then the actual what actually is happening at the lunch counter and then also the the white house dinner so it's you're giving a lot of sort of jarring switches and it's it's effective while being again super extra which is the lee daniel's brand i i wish this movie was more extra like especially i don't know because i remember i was talking to title about this movie and he just couldn't stop talking about the presidents and I was like I the presidents barely registered to me because they a lot of them do nothing right yeah exactly hey uh Eisenhower Robin Williams is Eisenhower paints on a little easel in the Oval Office so yeah while he's yeah like enjoy your painting sir while people are dying yeah there was there is

He was, I don't know what's going on. And, um, God. Wasn't it? Because there are, there were people who filmed and were cut from the movie. And I'm pretty sure Melissa Leo was one of them. Yes. Yes. I think so too.

Because I know I read an interview somewhere with Lee Daniels where the interviewer mentions that there are like six Oscar winners in the movie and one of them is Melissa Leo. And I was like, I don't remember her at all. And she's like, absolutely not. even in the credits as like sometimes you'll get an actor credited and then they'll be like scene cut or something like that and like she's not even in the i and dv list for that so oh yeah and i see they cut out obama too which i'm glad i did not want to see obama i actually saw um like way like i think last year the the Hillary Clinton play that was like

Lori Metcalf and John Lithgow i saw that too I saw that too And Barack Obama, just seeing Barack Obama talking to them was just weird. Like, I know that they spoke and that they knew each other. Right. I just don't need those two things together. I'm not, I'm not emotionally prepared for the era of us dramatizing Obama yet. Like, I'm not there yet. Yeah, I don't want to, yeah, and I just don't want to see him.

Like, I feel like it's, I don't know, it's like seeing like Bugs Bunny or something. Like, I just, why is he here? Like, I question reality. Why? I don't know. Oh, my God. Um, I think I, I mean, I get what you're saying. It's like, it's not, you know, you don't want to look back.

You want to move forward, I think. Yeah, and I just feel like he was so prominent. Like, I don't know. It was, it was eight years where he wasn't just president. It was just like, he was so prominent. Like, we saw him all the time. People are talking to him all the time. He's meme.

all the time. People have reaction gifs with him. I don't want to see him in a movie. I don't. I know that there are two movies about Obama that Barry and Southside with you, and I've not seen them just for the same reason. They're honestly, they're both pretty good, but it's still, you have to at least have that remove of it's young Obama. You know what I mean? That it's like, that's enough, that for me was enough of a distance where at the very least, like, it's not Obama that I've lived through in my lifetime. So, um, I needed that remove. And we were talking about the ending earlier. Yeah, the ending, because I, when I saw that it was an article, that explains the ending where he, he meets Obama. Right. Um, and I don't,

I mean, it's, it's a very like establishment black director thing to really, really like Obama uncritically. So, I mean, it's not, I'm not surprised. It's just, so much of this movie is about the gray area. It's like, you know, do you trust the establishment or do you fight against the establishment? And that's such an interesting question. And then to think that the question basically dissolves when Obama is elected, like, we no longer have to ask. But, I mean, I think what kind of.

makes it a little bit easier to handle is that Cecil is much older by the end. And it makes sense that, you know, an older man who has lived through so much, like, this would be such a huge thing for him. And it's not even, I don't even think, like, I don't blame the character. I kind of blame the framing. Like, him being excited makes sense. But does the movie also have to be excited? Right. Well, and even when you saw interviews with Lee Daniels at the time, he talked so much about how the idea and the themes of the movie are that history has come a long way in the 20th century, but it's not finished, and it's still ongoing. And, you know, there's the sort of so much of the movie remains open-ended, or of the story of all this history

remains open-ended. And it's like, yeah, but the ending of this movie really runs counter to that, because the end of this movie feels very much like, and we're here, and we arrived. And that's not what that's not the idea that even Daniels is saying that the movie is talking about so I wonder a little bit and we don't have to get too far into it

if some of that was a because this is a Weinstein co movie if that was something that was forced by Harvey Weinstein we know that he had a lot of reputation in like demanding certain script changes or edit changes to movies really, I would be curious about that

in trying to make it an even more sentimental movie by ending that way. Yeah, it does feel like a studio ending and as much as I take issue with Lee Daniels with a lot of the choices that he makes, his messiness is the best thing about him and so for the movie to end neatly is just kind of a betrayal on him.

And it makes it even weirder that this movie didn't end up winning any Oscars because that's the kind of ending that a company that wants their movie to win Oscars gives their movie. Right. I truly kind of feel like the one factor that kept this from being Oscar nominated

is the fact that it opened in August. And I hate saying something so reductive as that, but like, this is a movie that made $100 million at the box office. If it had been a fall movie, I think it still could have made that much money. And I think this movie just got somewhat forgotten, or at least to the extent that it might have. This movie did best with SAG, where it gets the ensemble nomination, Forrest Whitaker gets nominated, and Oprah gets nominated. And SAG is the awards organization that is friendliest to movies that open earlier and movies that are more sort of

of widely distributed and pop and uh populist in that way and i think it's kind of telling that it gets those nominations at the sag nothing at the golden globes and the golden globes all often seems like this is how you can tell what campaigns are working the hardest sometimes and so you get the feeling that the butler got seen by a lot of people but you know maybe was not being campaigned as aggressively as or as effectively as it could be and was this wasn't this during the time when like the Weinstein company was like really kind of like financially perilous and wasn't able to do the kinds of like I mean they were never really financially stable even though like this is one of their highest grossing movies it made

a hundred million dollars at the box office but like they definitely shifted their campaign focuses onto Philomena and August O, Sage County. And those ones came up at the Globes and then again at the Oscars. Yeah, you really did feel that active shift towards Philomena

as the award season went on where it's just like, oh, no, it's this. And I feel like there's one other thing. Isn't this the same year that 12 years a slave came out? Yes. That's probably, I mean, yes, I think that's fair and like because that was an artier movie for whatever reason and this is way more mainstream

it is way more sentimental so like it can be chalked up to just a crowd pleaser instead of high art which is so interesting because i don't like 12 years of slave at all and i like this movie i really i really don't like 12 years of life but you're right to bring it up because it definitely feels like especially the era we're talking about where it's like Oscar can make it be there can only be one, you know, and it's insidious. Especially the, this is coming out after David A Yellowow said that academy members complained to the studio when the Selma team showed up to the premiere in I Can't Breathe T-shirts. Academy members complained to the studio that they did that and it's like

you can't say that there's not some type of implicit bias and outright racism oh yeah definitely and I mean I appreciate the Butler more than a movie like 12 years of slave just because it asks

a lot of questions and it has conversations whereas like I don't know I feel like it's 12 years of slave was easier to digest and easier to market because it's like a very clear story white people bad and and also well an addendum white people were bad then i think the then i think the then makes it a lot easier to deal with and it doesn't really there's not there's not like a lot of questions when you're done watching 12 years

and slave there's no real questions to ask yourself it's kind of like making it through the movie is an achievement in itself because of its brutality. Yeah. So, I don't know. I mean, I wrote about this all when I did the decade in Black film. My opinions on 12 Years of Slave that I don't like it and that I don't think it's very good. But the fact that the Butler came up against that movie that year is so, I feel like it's so notable just because it's some, because, I mean, as much as the stunt casting does

The movie, the fact that all of the white presidents, like, run together, I feel like is part of the point. Like, they were all kinds of saying the same things. They all kind of said stuff about, like, freedoms and, like, liberty and just kind of, like, a bunch of stuff. But nobody actually does anything. I actually think that the most interesting thing that a, well, there are two interesting things that presidents do in this movie. is when Nixon tries to see if he can

flip around black power and turn it into like, we support black businesses. Yes. And that's what black power is. His business and profit and consumers. I think that that's a really interesting angle

because I think that he did take that angle. A lot of politicians took that angle and that's the angle that worked. And I've been noticing it a lot while the protests have been going on, there's this, there's the protesting, and then there's the really radical stuff, and there's also the like, the black business part of it, which isn't necessarily separate, but it's also a more, like, easy to digest thing

to talk about. Let's move the money here. Let's promote this. It's like an easier kind of, like businessman way to do with it that doesn't require any real structural changes because you're still like thinking about the market you know the economic have to do anything because the market will uh take care of it if yeah yeah so i thought that that was really interesting and probably like one of the few like openly malicious things that i feel like doesn't sound malicious at first and then like the more that you think about it you're like what is he talking about uh so there's that and then there is Reagan who you know disappoints Cecil and kind of like changes about the presidency that Reagan is the big change which makes sense because

Reagan black people hate Reagan yeah he's probably the president the black people hate the most And I also hate him. He sucks. As we should. He sucks. Well, that's why I say Alan Rickman is probably the best of the president performances, because he gets this whole thing that made this veneer

of like congeniality, I guess, of Reagan that made Reagan at the time such a popular president, but like in that meeting where Cecil can see in the room and he is outright refusing to speak out against a party.

He does it in this same, like, good old boy, old man, like, timbre and, like, temperament that is fully evil. Yeah, I think Colin Rickman kind of nails Reagan. Well, one of the other things that this movie does is it doesn't, Cecil never gets into any kind of, like, actual. politics of it. And you get that line early on where Coleman Domingo says politics has no place in the White House, which is, you know, an obvious and very, you know, starkly ironic line. But like, even when he's observing and sort of like peeking in on the presidents, he never, he doesn't have any, there's no differential between Republican or Democrat. He doesn't ever seem to get, even when he sort of like allows himself to be swayed by a moment or obviously that you can see something is affecting him the actual like politics of it never really seep in so it's just this matter of and it allows you to see all of those presidents as more the same than different right they're all sort of doing that thing where they're the like you know ask him in a moment of you know solitude or whatever to kind of confer his approval

onto whatever they're going through, right? Reagan wants Cecil to kind of absolve him of his policies by when he's like, oh, well, sometimes I feel like I'm, you know, just wrong. And so he's, yeah, but like, you're not changing anything. Like, you just want, you know, you're looking for absolution from this character. And it, in one way, flattens the politics of those scenes. But then, obviously, it's like sharply contrasted with his son and what, you know, a yellow what was doing on the other side of it.

It's a more interesting movie that it gets credit for. And I don't think I realized that until I saw it the second time. And I think some of that is because it does a lot of standard, like, biopic type of things, the way that the movie just like the trajectory of the movie. But whenever it can pause and focus on, I don't want to say focus on the family, when it does center the family and especially centers Gloria and like her struggle in all of this and how she just kind of has to sit back and take it for the family and how that causes a lot of depression for her and fuels her alcoholism while at the same time she struggles to articulate some of this or at least struggles to be heard when she does that's I think when the movie is doing all of the things that it does incredibly well. Yeah, I love the conflict between the comfort of their lives and, you know,

everything that's going on outside, because with the jobs that they have and with the home that they have, they're basically safe. And, but I feel like Oprah's character is kind of like dealing with that conflict on a very, like, deep level, but it's like she can't even talk to her husband about it because he doesn't want to dig any deeper. He's very surface level, and it isn't until he gets older

that he starts really wanting to have these conversations that he's been avoiding for so long. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It is, there's part of me that is still surprised that she wasn't nominated for the performance, and also not. I mean, A, this is, it had a lot of power for her to be in this movie. It was a big deal that she was in a movie. It's her first big role since she actually, since she did Beloved, which like didn't go well. Jordane had an incredible episode of Blank Check where they talked about that. Go back and listen to that. Um, but also I'm not because I'm not surprised because this is when some of the resentment towards Oprah settles in and of course a lot of that is racially motivated. Um, But also the movie, it's most interesting when it focuses on her, but I don't think it still gives her enough time, you know? And Oprah's doing this incredibly understated performance to me in a movie that is, like, we've talked about kind of scattered and all over the place and, like, it is, like, wonderfully messy at times.

And she's playing a very real woman. And so partly I'm not surprised because it is, the best stuff she does is very understated in this movie. Yeah. Can we talk about supporting actress that year for half a second? Totally. That's the year where Lupita Nyango wins for 12 years of slave, narrowly beats out Jennifer Lawrence in American Hustle. Jennifer Lawrence, an actress who I love, but I don't love that performance. I think she's pretty bad in that movie,

even though there are a couple moments in that movie that are fucking fantastic, like the science oven scene. Oh, the science oven. And, like, that's the one scene that makes me feel like maybe I'm wrong about her performance in that movie. Julia Roberts, a lead,

getting nominated in supporting for August Osage County. We're going to nominate a supporting actress for August Osage County. it should be Julia Ann Nicholson. Even though I think Julia Roberts is good in that movie, and obviously the each-of-fish scene is, you know, memorable for a reason. June Squib in Nebraska, who is good, but I wouldn't come close to nominating her.

But, like, of course, you get why, you know. I love that June Squib is an Oscar nominee. I despise that movie. Yeah. Oh, I've never seen it. How is it? I think it is the most mean, spirit one of the most mean spirited movies I've ever seen um not to be like someone who's sitting

here being like that movies just mean but like I think that movie is full of shit um wow okay now I kind of want to watch it watch it and see if you disagree with it but I think that's a hateful movie tells me that a movie is bad I immediately want to watch it I know me too so I I hear you on that and then the kind of surprise nominee the one who I think if you can say like took Oprah's slot, was Sally Hawkins in Blue Jasmine, which on one level could be seen as kind of a coattails nomination for Cape Blanchet because Cape Blanchet was winning everything and was such a force. But, like, Sally Hawkins is really good in that movie and playing, you know, essentially, you know, Stella to Kate's Blanche and is a really deserved nomination.

And Sally had been egregiously snubbed for Happy Go Lucky only four year or five years earlier so it's tough to begrudge her you know that even it feels like a makeup nomination it's a lot of those factors all kind of rolled into one that i think went into those but you can't really say i think it's more accurate that the fifth place slot was probably very competitive yeah for this category because you can't really say that it was Oprah spot because the only precursor that nominated Sally Hawkins was Bafta, where Oprah was nominated. I think it was just very competitive for that last spot. No, I say, I say, you know, Sally versus Oprah for the fifth slot, mostly because we tend to sort of that, that those SAG nominations feel, you know, very predictive.

And the fact that that's essentially swapped out Oprah for Sally is, you know, telling. But yeah. I mean, that's what the SAG lineup was. Yeah, Sally got Oprah's slot from the SAG nominees. Yeah, I felt bad for Oprah. I sort of, it felt like, it felt pointed, you know? You talk about, you know, don't use the word snub because, you know, it confers sort of active denial rather than just like, oh, somebody, just didn't get enough votes. But, like, that to me I always felt like, it was just like, oh,

just, you know, it felt actively snubby towards Oprah, I thought. I mean, especially with Julia Roberts being nominated for obviously a lead performance, I mean, I probably, if you rule Julia Roberts out, I like Oprah more than half of those other nominees. I'm trying to think of, like, what else was in the conversation. I remember that was the year where didn't Octavia Spencer win the NBR supporting actress for Fruitvale Station? And I remember, thinking like oh well that's obviously going to be a nominee because it just felt like things were really solidifying behind you know her praise for her in that movie and for that movie and that was the year where I remember I think Fruitvale station was another Weinstein company movie right

where like you talk about movies that were totally abandoned by their campaign in favor of other things. I think Fruitvale Station was a movie that absolutely with a strong campaign behind it. I know that was a movie that was more divisive towards the end of the year than it was. I think that was a Sundance movie, wasn't it? It was, and it was also

a summer release. Right. And I think as the year went along, you heard a lot more sort of dissenting voices about that movie. But I still feel like in terms of just like an awardsy movie, a strong campaign for that really could have pushed Michael B. Jordan to a nomination, Octavia Spencer to a nomination, and it just didn't happen.

What else was going on that year? I'm looking at my own rankings that year. Obviously, I had Emma Watson in second place for the bling ring because fucking loved her in the bling ring. But that was obviously... Talk about somebody who is typically not a good performer, but there's one absolutely like comic genius performance. that I will forever be curious when that could happen again, but yeah, I love that performance. There was Amy Adams and her, who I think she was getting all her attention for American Hustle, so that sort of, you know, diverted a lot of attention away from that,

because, like, her ultimately was a movie that the Academy really loved, like Best Picture nominee, Screenplay Winner, all of that, but, you know. One of the few contemporary production design nominees. Yeah, that's a really good point. That's the sign of how much they like that movie. Contemporary, although there's the production design of that movie, I think, benefited from, it's contemporary, but it's sort of like vaguely futuristic, right? It's like, you know, contemporary with this sort of just, you know, hard to pin down

futurism that I thought was really cool. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I love her. I've seen it only once and I cried and I won't watch it again. Amy Adams is the best thing about that movie. Yeah, she's really wonderful on that. But, like, not hard to see why she wouldn't have gotten an Oscar nomination. It's not a very loud performance.

They sure do love loud. I mean, again, you look at this year, Julia Roberts, Jennifer Lawrence. Like, that's, yeah. I couldn't watch the August Osage County. I think it was, I'm trying to think. That was, I was in school. then and I remember people of my classmates

talking shit about that adaptation it's a real disservice of an adaptation because it kind of removes any political context that it is supposed to have and how it's supposed to kind of indict an entire generation of

Midwestern white people and that movie just doesn't really do it. It does have like a political subtext to all of it that the movie is just flat out not interested in. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I heard about it because I'd read the play and I was just like, do I go? And it was, it was when I was still, when I was like a baby theater. I was just like, I just got to New York and I am going to the theater. I'm not going to the movies. One other thing I think we should bring up in terms of Oscar that actually I look this up and I'm a little bit surprised.

How do we feel about the makeup in this movie, guys? Oh. Some of it's good and some of it is so terrible. Well, I mean, I just also just watched Armageddon recently and the makeup on John Voight is so terrible in that movie that all of the makeup in this movie seemed fine to me. some of it is really good I think a lot of what they do with Forrest Whitaker is pretty great but then like they do

Lenny Kravitz so wrong Oh yeah Wait who is John Voight and Armageddon He plays He plays the presidents Does he really? No no no no no no not Armageddon Fuck Pearl Harbor

Pearl Harbor Oh okay yes He definitely does play FDR and Pearl Harbor That is for sure Yes yes Pearl Harbor and he, I don't know, his face looked like it was made of rubber, and when he moved it, it was terrifying. Yeah, oh, God.

They make poor Lenny Kravitz look like Pizza the Hut from Spaceballs in this movie. Felt so bad. Yeah, they definitely add those sort of those later scenes with Forrest, too. Like, the makeup is very aggressive, and it almost feels distrustful, of Forrest to be able to get that character across without it, and it's just like, I think Forrest Whitaker can handle this.

Well, but I brought this up earlier. I think, like, one of the things that shows you what the incredible performer is, he acts through that in a way that's still believable and impactful. I bring this up because watching the movie, I was like, I bet that

if this had been, when they still had five makeup nominees, that this could have been nominated, and then, like we wouldn't be able to talk about it. It'd be an Oscar nominee. But it didn't even make the Bake Off short list. And I looked up the Bake Off Shortlist. It is fully unwell, so much so that I had to mention it to you guys. Okay, these are the seven movies that were on the bake-off list for the eventual three nominees. American Hustle, it's basically heterosexual wigs of the movie, didn't get nominated.

Dallas Buyers Club, eventual winner. And it, of course, the story was they had something like a $20 makeup budget or something. Yeah, that was the Oscar that Katie Rich won for Dallas Spires Club, where she wrote about the challenge of doing the makeup on that, and it wins the Oscar. Congratulations, Katie. The Great Gatsby. Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters. A movie I saw in the theater.

Was that one of the ones? of the times that you just showed up and you said I'm going to watch whatever is playing right now. No, that was the time where me and two of my friends are like, what's the most chaotic insane movie we can watch tonight when we can like get high and watch tonight and it was Hansel and Gretel. Oh, fantastic.

That was fun. The Hunger Games catching fire. That's probably more of like a hair. That's Stanley Tucci's Wigs probably. Oh yeah. Well, and also there's all that stuff about the Hunger Games is like that that, you know, sort of parade of nations thing. and like she's yeah yeah yeah yeah there's a yeah uh and then the other two nominees which i yeah i can't deal with this um the other two eventual makeup nominees bad grandpa and the lone ranger

yep oh boy yep the lone ranger gets nominated yeah lone ranger gets nominated for that one look where johnny dep is uh the crow man right where he's just all he's like fully painted and the crows on his head and whatever. And Bad Grandpa is the worst tendency that the Oscars have for Best Makeup, which is we're just going to take a young person and make them up to look crazy old and like, ta-da. Like that's the thing. Like they fucking love old age makeup to that extreme degree and like stunty old age makeup.

It's not even like, like I think the butler probably doesn't do as well because it's old age makeup in like service to a. character and it's not like click or bad grandpa or what the hell was that that a swedish movie recently where it's just like oh you're only getting nominated because the hundred year old man who like whatever opened the window and sat on a bench yeah flew away home yeah that one um hundred year old man who climbed out a window and disappeared which i remember when that one made the bake off and everybody was like what is that movie and i'm like i don't know but it's absolutely getting nominated.

Like, absolutely for sure. Wasn't a man called Ova nominated, too? Yep, it was. It sure was. The only... Fantastic. The only... I'm looking at the last 10 years of makeup nominees,

and I was going to say the only one that I, like, made me sit up and cheer was two years ago when they nominated Border, which... Yeah. Is, A, such a good movie, and B, amazing makeup. and it's fun to have something like that nominated that's more like genre and like they're doing something versus another fat suit or another old age makeup that being said the butler is filled with old age makeup and it way deserves a spot over maybe any of those other potential nominees yeah that's true even with Lenny Kravitz looking like a melting person, looking like the high priestess from Roll Dolls, the Witches.

I wonder if it's just like a Nicole Kidman and Destroyer situation where it's just like the man is so beautiful, what do we do? How can we possibly work our way out of this straitjacket? Yeah. However, I didn't even mention it, but John Cusack's nose, oh my God. I know! It's literally like you could pinch it and pull it off. It enters the scene like

10 seconds before the rest of Kuzak enters the scene. Yeah. It sprouts legs and a face like John Carpenter's the thing. Kusack in this movie, part of me feels like I want Lee Daniels to do a Nixon biopic with Kuzak and just like

Set him free. Just like do a whole thing. You know, I would love that. I mean, at watching Nixon for the first time, which I have surprisingly little opinion on that movie, except, you know, love Joan Allen. I think that she's wonderful. And also, I find it very unsettling

that Nixon called his wife Buddy. Yep. That really upset. That's me. I was mad. Reagan called his wife, buddy. Reagan called his wife Mommy. Like, it's a whole goddamn thing. Ew.

Yeah. Oh, my God. I absolutely hate it. It's, I just, I just kept on, like, looking at Kyle just like, if you ever call me, buddy, we are never having sex again. That's also an Angels in America thing, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Buddy kiss.

Joe and, yeah, Harper. But it's like, in that, in that, it's like intentionally unsettling, right? It's intentionally telling of what's going on. Revealing. Yeah, yeah. Can we talk about the AARP Movies for Grownups Awards? Yeah. Hell yeah, our favorite.

This is an AARP Movies for Grownups year that we talk about a lot. We've talked about it when we did enough said. We always bring it up because the way, way back, a movie that does not exist. has never existed in the culture, won a prize. Oprah wins, supporting actress, here for the butler. It's a good set of nominees, too, honestly. It is. Read off the list for us.

Alice and Janie for the Way Way Back, who would have made my top five that year. She's a scream in that movie. I mean, you talk about, like, boozy, blousey ladies who are just, like, could give a fuck. Like, Alice and Janney and the Way Way Back is so funny. Julianne Morin, Don John, the moral center of Don John, which is super funny, especially because Scarlett Johansson was the one getting actual buzz for that performance. Julianne Moore is really good. She is.

She's wonderful in that movie. June Squibbon, Nebraska, Oscar nominee, the only Oscar nominee of the bunch. And from August Osage County, an actual supporting actress, Margo Martindale, who... Living Legend, Margo Martindale. I adore Margo Martindale. I wish she had gotten Margo. like one more scene in that movie to just sort of like let loose. She down, like her big scene, the one that, oh God, who played her originally on Broadway and I

positive got the Tony for it. Like her big scene, Margo Martindale downplays so much that it's like once I saw it, I was like, oh, that's, it's just not going to happen. She, this is the scene where she's supposed to like lay it all out there. and she kind of intentionally doesn't in a way that I think is interesting for the character, but is not, you know, it's never going to get an award, I guess.

Rondie Reed is the actress who played Maddie Faye. Rondie Reed. She's kind of won the Tony Award for it. Yeah, it's, and then it also wins Best Grown Up Love Story, right? No, Best Grown Up Love Story, I'm pretty sure, is Enough Said. Oh.

But it's nominated for Best Grown Up Love Story. Enough Said was, yeah. We talked about that movie on this podcast, a very, very good movie. and a very, very good grown-up love story. Love that movie so much. And Forrest Whitaker was also nominated for Best Actor. He loses to Bruce Dern from Nebraska, Oscar nominee.

Two Oscar Snubbies that were nominated, Robert Redford for All Is Lost, is All Lost, Tom Hanks for Captain Phillips, and incredibly chaotically, the A-Harpie movies for grown-ups, nominated for Best Actor, Brad Pitt in World War Z. What? What in the world? Y'all are crazy. I love the M for Gs.

They give you such wonderful things like that, but they also do cool things. We have, I don't think we even mentioned this on air when we talked about enough said. You know who they did nominate in Best Actress? Paulina Garcia for Gloria. Perfect. Absolutely well deserved. Incredible. perfect nomination. That was a fantastic year for both lead actor and lead actress.

We've talked before about the absolute log jam and best actor that year that left so many people, so many worthy nominees out of the running. But best actress is pretty damn good, too. The nominees were Blanchett wins for Blue Jasmine, Amy Adams, who I love an American hustle. I think she's absolutely fantastic. Sandra Bullock for Gravity. who would have probably won if she hadn't already won.

Judy Dent for Filomena and Merrill in August O'Sage County, which a lot of people don't like. I do think she meets the challenge of the bigness of that role and I think she's deeply miscast.

Yeah? Yeah. That should have been played by like a sissy SpaceX. What is it? What is it about Meryl that's not working? in that role. I mean, partly it is the era of Merrill only giving drag performances. But, like, it's always played by women who are, like, small little, like, rattlesnakes, right?

Like, I look at in the bedroom, and it's, like, a flash of, like, the anger and, like, nastiness needed for that character. And Meryl, I just, she's worked against it before, but I think her screen presence is incredibly warm, and it's a character that's so devoid of that, and she can't really shed it. In my opinion. No, I think that's a good take. That works for me. Forrest Whitaker and best actor, though, because you mentioned that it is really, really stacked. I think it's a shame that he probably didn't really, especially in such a crowd. year have much of a chance

because I think this is a really good performance. It's just one of those things where for so much of the movie, he's a passive character and especially what Oscar rewards. They don't, they want somebody who is like, they want characters that are active roles in what's happening in the action of it.

Well, you look at who got nominated that year versus who didn't. And so Whitaker gets left off, Joaquin Phoenix and Her, Oscar Isaac in Lewin Davis, Hanks in Captain Phillips, Redford, in All Is Lost. With the exception of probably Hanks, even though Hanks's big moment really only comes in that late scene in the movie, they really did leave off most of the low-key performers. And then you nominate DiCaprio for Wolf of Wall Street, bail for American Hustle. McConaughey for Dallas Buyers Club, Dern for Nebraska, and Shuatel Aegeot for for 12 years of slave. Like, it's, I mean, the Oscars do this all the time, right? They gravitate towards

the, you know, bigger, you know, more, like, people with big scenes, big sort of like, you know, signature scenes. Yeah, yeah. All of, all of Forced Whitaker's work is very subtle. And, you know, yeah, so it's understandable that he didn't get nominated. It's, it was, it was, It was more surprising to me that Oprah didn't. But, yeah, Forrest Whitaker also does, he does great work there. But... Yeah, great, really subtle work. The other thing about Forrest Whitaker, I wanted to float out to you guys,

is his best actor when the least talked about best actor performance of the last, say, 15 years? I don't think best actor in the past 15 years has really yielded a lot of performances that we actually talk about. It's given it to performers that we talk about, but I mean... But yeah, I don't know anything. I, like, Last King of Scotland, decide from, like, the basic

setup. I don't know anything about it. I haven't seen it. No one ever tells me to see it. Like, yeah, so I understand. Nobody's ever, like, you got to see the Last King of Scotland. He's really good in it. Like, it's not a bad movie. And it's a really good performance, but

it's, and that was a performance that like won everything that year and it's not like the strongest field that year so maybe it's it's one of those things where it's just like well we have no other you know necessary dominant narrative um i don't think any of the nominees that year were in a best picture nominee no right the blood diamond for decaprio half nelson for ryan gosling venus for peter o'toole which nobody saw and will smith pursuit of happiness so yeah in a year we're not None of the best actor nominees... And that's really uncommon.

Yeah. Oh, super uncommon. That none of the best actor nominees is... Especially now, it's like almost all will align with best picture nominees. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, it's an interesting sort of like wrinkle of a year, but it also contributes to, you know, we sort of, you know, we forced Whitaker is allowed to kind of fade into the background, which is too bad because it's a really good actor. Yeah.

And now he's playing like seven. Leads in Rogue One and whatnot. Yeah, he was the one that had to keep going back for the reshoots because they kept changing what his character was. What his character was, or, like, how his character talked. Like, there was a lot of, it's such a confused character, yeah. The full, like, character design completely changed between, like, the teaser trailer coming out where you can see him in full costume and makeup, looking nothing like he does in the final movie. Oh, man. That's a movie that turned out to be something that I really liked.

I really liked Rogue One, but yeah. Yeah. A fraught production process, to be sure. To say the least, I think. Yeah. Do we have any final notes on either the film or the awards run for it? Again, I do think it is still surprising. Oprah didn't get in.

The only major precursor she didn't get was Golden Globes. Right. Because it's SAG, BAFTA, Critics' Choice. Yep, that's true. It did well with the NAACP Image Awards, and one thing I would posit, they gave an award for supporting actor to David a Yellowow, who we haven't really talked about this episode,

and who I love, and I like in Lee Daniels movies, too. In our Paperboy episode, we talked about his performance in that movie, which to me is probably still the best performance in it. He has that scene where he reveals that he's, not American, he's British and it's great Well this is

Go ahead Yeah it's interesting I he's one of those actors Where I know that he's good but I don't like him all the time But in the Butler In Selma is probably where I like him the most I think that he's great in both movies Oh which reminds me

A thing that we did not mention at all Is that the late Nelson Ellis plays Martin Luther King Jr. in this movie for like a second. And, oh, God, I love him. I love him so much. I believe that the only reason why people watch True Blood, like, past the third season is because of Nelson Ellis. I have no evidence of this, but I believe it to be so. He was fantastic on that show. Easily my favorite thing about True Blood. I didn't stay till the end, but yeah, I probably stuck around longer than I would have because of him.

He was wonderful. Yeah. So, yeah, he's great. But, yeah, oh, yo, is, it was, I was actually surprised by how much I liked him in this movie, because I didn't watch this movie when it came out. I watched it, like, just last year. And I was just like, wow, I, because I just thought that Selma was a fluke. I was like, I really like him in Selma and really nothing else.

But I also really like him in this. So maybe I just like him when he has, like, a lot of attitude. because he's really great in the paper boy, too. He has the unenviable task of playing the same character from the age of, like, 15 to 60, and which is so silly to me whenever movies do that, and they think that we can't just follow a character through multiple actors, even though a 40-year-old is playing a teenager.

But he does it incredibly well in a way that's not distracting. I love him in the final scene that you see him in the, the like porch rally for Obama where they give him like a little punch and it's kind of cute it reminds me this is going to be so good it's going to sound reductive and I don't mean it to but like it definitely

reminded me of that Simpson's episode where Homer won't let Bart see the itchy and scratchy movie and then you get that like epilogue at the end where they're both like old and they go to see the itchy and scratchy movie and it's just like oh, they finally, like, closed the loop on this. Like, it's just like, oh, now they're both just like these two old men finally reaching their point where they can see the itchy and scratching movie together, metaphorically speaking.

I guess in this case, Barack Obama's election is the itchy and scratching movie. I also think it would be very easy for O'Yalawa's character to seem passive, considering, like, he's tasked to basically go through, you know, decades. worth of civil rights events and like it could be like you're just watching him experience that but you do in the longer scenes especially the family scenes get a character arc from him that could be you know again like signposts but it does feel like a very smooth character growth that I don't think that's easy to do yeah I like him this is also sort of the on the road to the leveling up that he goes through where all of a sudden in 2012 he's in a bunch of movies at once he's a small role in in lincoln but he's in red tails he's

in the paper boy he's in middle of nowhere where i think he's phenomenally good in middle of nowhere he gets a independent spirit award nomination for that then the butler which is you know a leveling up and then i think all sort of like leading to selma where you know he's obviously lead in that movie should have been nominated for an Oscar and yeah yeah yeah he's oh yeah he's great in middle of nowhere too I wonder what movies do I think that he's bad in maybe like badly maybe he's in a lot of badly directed movies it's very possible he's also in uh Jack Reacher but I've never seen Jack Reacher so I don't know the nature of his role in that movie I will never watch Jack Reacher I don't I don't know what that is I don't I don't know what that is I don't I don't know

There's the Jack Reacher. There's the Jack Ryan. I don't know. Right. I don't. And what's the Keanu one that everybody loves? John Wick. John Wick.

Right. They should do an alien versus predator where it's John Wick versus Jack Reacher. And just like cross those franchises over and give the people what they want. I still need to see John Wick three because Hallie Barry is in it. And that's really the only reason I don't see John Wick three. Oh, that's a good reason to see that. It truly was a thing that almost got me to see Jack Reacher 3 without seeing, or John Wick 3, without seeing the other two, because I never watched the first one, because, listen, I am a baby with animals in peril movies. I can't watch it.

So that's why I never saw John Wick. Aw. I mean, the dog gets killed pretty early. Oh, man. You can't get over the dog. I mean, it's, I love the first John Wick movie. I mean, the second one is also very fun, but the first John Wick movie is so great because the whole time, he's just like killing all these people and like beating everybody's ass.

And then people are just like, but it's just a dog. And he's like, it's not just a dog. It isn't just a dog. Did we know that David O'Yello was in Last King of Scotland? No, I didn't know that. I'm finding without just looking at his filmography right now. I've, you know, at the time, watching Last King of Scotland, I obviously had no familiarity with a yellow, so I didn't make a note of it. But yeah, he is.

And I think my other big note is I have just Disco Oprah with like 17 boxes around it and just sort of. She looks amazing. I want several movies. I want a mini-series about Disco Oprah. I just want. Also, is this the last time that James Marston, like, starred in anything? like as he starred in anything in a while wasn't he on a bad TV show

am I mixing that up I don't know like it's interesting because like for a while he was kind of unavoidable I would I see James Marston all the time and then when I was re-watching the Butler I was like when was the last time I've seen this man he was definitely on Westworld Chris if that's what you're thinking that's what it was right

Westworld yes that's that's the show that he's on that poor baby He should really get to do more. And he's been on Mrs. America. He's playing a real shit in Mrs. America. I haven't watched it. I was going to wait to watch all of it at once. And he's also on, actually, he's doing a lot of TV because he's also on Dead to Me,

the Christina Applegate's Linda Cardalini show that I've seen one season of, and second season came out this summer, this spring, and people seem to really like it. What is time? Oh, God. And the extended cut of once upon a time in Hollywood, apparently he's in it. But I'm never going to watch that movie again. Definitely not a longer version of it. He also got cast.

He's cast as the lead in the CBS All Access adaptation of the stand that may or may not. Oh, hell, yeah. Oh, okay. So he's doing the TV now. Well, good for him. Him. Oh, God, this cast is wild. He's in it.

It's a little crazy. Amber Heard. Greg Kinnear, Greg Kinnear as like the old, like philosopher man, which is funny because I don't think he's old enough to play that role. Whoopi is obviously Mother Abigail because, you know, actually that's really interesting casting. I like that. Jovonne Adepo is in it. Marilyn Manson as the trash can man? Oh my God.

What the fuck is going on? We do not need to be hiring Marilyn Manson in the year 2020. Alexander Scarsguard is Randall Flagg. Heather Graham is in this movie. Oh my God I'm absolutely going to have to see this movie This book was wildly formative for me But like, oh, that is a cast for sure

Yeah, I think we can move on to the IMDB game Also, just to tease it up a little bit, guys We are two episodes away from our hundredth episode I cannot believe it, we're almost there It just feels like, you know, a cycle that just repeats itself and I'm very excited to celebrate this milestone. Yes. Very excited.

All right. So Joseph, tell our lovely listeners what the IMDB game is if they're not already familiar. Sure. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-off. All of Hints. That's the I and D.B.

Game. Jordane, since you are our guests, you get to decide both if you want to give or guess first and who you want to give to. Hmm. I'm yes.

Um, I'll guess first. All right. Who would you like to give your example to, though? Or your, uh, You're a celebrity, too. I'll give it to you. Okay, so you are going to guess first, which means Joe is going to give you your guesser person.

All right. This is kind of chaotic, but I think it could be fun. I'm going to give you a... I didn't stray far from Lee Daniels of Butler. I figured with a cast this big, I could pick an actor from it, and we would probably be safe to not have spill it. We tend to not pick from the movie in case like

I've gone into the IMDBs of these actors as part of my research but I'm going to throw out for you. I didn't research anyone in the cast this time. Yeah. Cuba Gooding Jr. Ooh. Ah, okay. Jerry Maguire.

Correct. It's Oscar Win. Oh, God. Oh, boy, I am looking at it now. As good as it gets? Yes, yes. Very good as good as it gets. Yep.

I always forget he's in that movie because he sort of disappears after the first 15 minutes or so. I tried to... It's been on Netflix for a minute, too. I keep on trying to re-watch it and then giving up on it. Yeah, I can't imagine that that movie ages well at all.

Yeah. Um, God. No wrong guesses yet. Radio? Yes, three for three, radio. Ho-ho. Jordane, if you can get this, I think you will be our first guest with a perfect score. Oh, boss.

The pressure. This last one is trying to think I don't know if I'm going to get this last one Could I have a hint? He is the lead. It's like two leads. He's filled above the title. Yeah, he's above the title, him and the other co-lead of this movie.

I'm pretty sure he's the hero of this movie and then the other actor is sort of his antagonist, yes? Something like that. An antagonist who becomes his advocate. I see. I haven't seen this movie.

I don't imagine that I would. I'm trying to think. Is it it's based on a true story i'm pretty sure um has a veneer of prestige yeah it's like inspirational okay i think i know what it is but i'm but i'm worried that i'm gonna get the title wrong um is it is it men of honor yeah it's men of honor well done perfect score congratulations that was not an easy one to nail too like that was tough well done good job i love it All right, so you have me that I will be guessing.

Who do you have for me? Well, I'm trying to think if I can lead anything back to Cuba Gooding Jr. Oh, this is probably silly, but Bonnie Hunt. Oh. Okay, is there any TV? Actually, let me see. I was thinking about Bonnie Hunt because she's in Jerry McGuire.

Let's see. Yes, she is. No television. No TV. No television. Okay, I'll just say Jerry Maguire. Yes. Yep.

Okay. Jamongi. Yes. Okay. No voiceover, no TV. So Bonnie, it's up. and life with Bonnie is not there is that the same show no two different shows wait the one was called the Bonnie Hunt show oh no but there was also okay there was Bonnie there was

life with Bonnie and then there was the Bonnie Hunt show I think the Bonnie Hunt show might have been a talk show but yes okay wow three shows yeah all right um Beethoven no people have forgotten about Beethoven she's got to play like a wife in something go with that okay um

or like the friend in a romantic comedy she's got to have done that Um, can I give a, can I give a hint? I gotta get enough. Oh, right, right, go for it. So, um, I would seriously just throw out cars. No.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, she is the mom in the Steve Martin cheaper by the dozen. Cheaper by the dozen. Nope, it's not that either. Damn. Uh, so do I give the years now? yes yes okay so the years are 1988 and 1999 88 oh boy um uh 99 99 I bet I'm gonna get sooner trying to think of wives and moms I will say that there it's neither one is a rom-com which is surprising okay right yeah don't go down that road um oh she

It's got to be the Green Mile. She's the wife in the Green Mile. Yes. She has a lot of sex with Tom Hanks, and it is supposed to be funny, and it's just a little creepy. All right, so 1988, it's not a rom-com.

I will say I have no memory of her being in this movie, but it's been a long time since I've seen this movie. Oh, great, so I should have some trouble. It's before Beethoven, but not that long before Beethoven. Well, I guess maybe. When was Beethoven? Like 95.

Beethoven was like 91, 92 maybe. Okay. So maybe she could be playing a mom. It would be very silly. Beethoven's 92. Ah. Charles Groden. I think that this is a really, this last one is very tough.

It is. Oh, man. It's not an obscure movie, but like there's no memory of her being in it. Like, I can't imagine. Okay. What can I think of from 1988. Is that like, she's not going to be in dangerous liaisons, but is that the dangerous liaisons year? It is the year and she's not, but like imagine, imagine her in dangerous liaisons.

Oh, I would love that. Is it an Oscar movie? It is. Yeah. Okay. Is it Working Girl? No. Okay.

Trying to think of cast that she could feasibly be in. It's her feature film debut for whatever that's worth. I don't think that's a helpful clue, but it's an interesting little side note. Her second feature film is Beethoven. Great. Her third feature film is Dave, where she plays White House Tour Guide. Okay. uh what's the what's the best picture winner that year uh rain man yes why is she in rain she's in rain she is according to i mdb the one

two three four five six seven eight ninth lead in rain man cool i have never i've never seen rain man so i i don't know i feel like i should see it since i was like a teenager Like, it's been a while. We would go, like siblings and I would go and stay with our aunt, stay asleep over at our aunt's house, and she would have just this box of VHS tapes. And it was only maybe like seven or eight movies. So we would really cycle through just the same few movies. And it was like Sister Act and Pretty Woman and fried green tomatoes and rain men and beaches.

And so we would cycle through that collection of movies. like 10, 12, you know, 13 years old. It was, it was an odd little time. Amazing. Yeah. All right. So Joseph, for you, perhaps not quite so difficult, but I chose this just to disprove this theory. We have this obsession with movies where everyone on the poster has the movie in their known for. So you can't say I'm being evil to you because I chose this person because August Osage County is not on there. and that's a movie we thought was like this. Joseph, with the hint that August O's H. Gowny is not there, I have Julia Roberts for you. Yeah. That makes sense because she's had a lot more,

she's had a lot bigger movies than that in her career. She's usually top build. Right. I really think that that affects the algorithm. Okay. Well, I just mentioned Pretty Woman, so I'm going to guess Pretty Woman. Pretty Woman.

Aaron Brockovich. Aaron Brockovich. Perfect movie. Right. okay um where do we go from there there's a couple avenues my best friend's wedding my best friend's wedding okay another exceptional film so what else do we have there's possibly steel magnolias do we do like early career stuff maybe sleeping with the enemy Um, or like, oh, nodding hill.

No. Fuck. Damn it. All right. Okay. Uh, not nodding hill. I doubt it would be anything where, like, she's in an ensemble, like Ocean's 11. Uh, huh, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Um, maybe runaway bride? No. All right. So, your year. It's 2004. 2004. All right. So, where are we at?

We're after Aaron Brockovich. We're after... You're really mad that you don't have that right on the tip of your tongue. Really? Oh, shit. Is it a thing that I should really have? I mean, I thought you were going to yell at me. 0-4. I'm trying to, like, trace her career now. As time goes on, I feel like, since your cup is getting filled with anger.

It's closer. Yes, closer, a movie we both like. Yeah, she's great and closer. Oh, love that movie. And I've also done the scene with her and Clive Owen when he figures out that she's cheating. I've done that scene in an acting class. Oh, my God. What a scene.

We're just Quoting Panic at the Disco titles the entire time. That's amazing. All righty. That, I think, is our episode. If you want more ThisHad Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.tumbler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account

at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Jordane. Oh, my God. Thank you for coming back. Thank you for suggesting this title. We've tried to, like, have some time between return guests, but, like, it was such a pleasure to have you back again. Oh, yeah, I really, I find this movie so interesting. So, yes, I'm so glad that I came back. Well, and tell our listeners where they can find more of you as well.

You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at J-O-U-R-D-A-Y-E-N, and you can listen to my podcast, Bad Romance podcast, wherever you get your podcast. We're on a network now called Lunar Light Studio. So that's cute. We have the little Lunar Light Studio outro at the end now. But it'll be good. And we're going to be doing all queer movies this month. So that'll be fun.

Nice. Spectacular. And Joseph, where can our lovely listeners find you? Sure. Twitter at Joe Reed. Read is spelled R-E-I-D, letterboxed, as also Joe Reed, read spelled the same way. And I am Chris Fyle on Twitter and Letterbox under Chris V-File.

That's F-E-I-L. As we spotlighted last week, we highly encourage you to donate to the Emergency Release Fund right now. That's Emergency Release Fund.com. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievous for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcasts. five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple podcast visibility, so please tell us, you get a five-star review, you get a

five-star review, everybody gets a five-star review. That's all for this week, and we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye. Bye. Ah! Oh!