This Had Oscar Buzz - 101 – Flawless

Episode Date: July 6, 2020

Philip Seymour Hoffman had a breakout 1999, winning critics prizes for performances in two films that just missed the Best Picture cut but landed his flashier costars with Supporting Actor nominations: Magnolia and The Talented Mr. Ripley. But this week, we’re discussing another less-praised film of his that year that nevertheless landed him a Lead Actor nomination at … Continue reading "101 – Flawless"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Heck. Honey, did you come to borrow a cup of testosterone? Sorry, we're all out. I'm singing a lesson. Welcome to Fairyland.

You don't probably you're in a Sinatra. Well, I don't do Sinatra, although I'm sure I'm the only girl who hasn't. You better watch out of her, rusty, honey. She likes you, straight guys. I never thought I'd see Walt the Coons hanging out with dragwlish. Do? Face the music. Or should I just get Dr. Gavorkihan's phone number for you?

You are truth? never going to be a woman. I am more man than you will ever be, and more woman than you will ever get. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast Trashing Your House in the name of Javier Bardem's poetry. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris File, and I'm here as always with my vocal coach and co-host, Joe Reed.

Chris, Chris, bobus, banana, bonafus. How are you? We don't talk about Philip Seymour Hoffman's singing voice, but he had a nice little round baritone. He certainly is able to sound out those vowels. That's such a big part of his singing lessons in this film. It's like an hour of scales. They just learned scales for a minute. Basically, yes.

It scales the movie. Scales. And yet with all that enunciation, still so much of his dialogue feels sometimes lost in the sort of forest of his own interpretation of his character's voice, I thought. It's a very, I've got sort of thoughts all across the map about his performance in this movie. it's both impressive and yet very actorly and yet um you know you don't want to say admirable but i feel like it's a it's an accomplishment on like a technical level and i don't know there's a whole lot of there's a lot of considerations there okay it's at one time very much a philip seymour hoffman performance that like if you like are, I mean, if you're someone like me, who it's like he's, he's probably my

favorite actor. And you like, you know his mannerisms, his ticks, like the things that make a performance of his very distinct, even if he's like, you know, getting lost in, uh, like a character like Truman Capote. Like, you can still see like Philip Seymour Hoffman isms in that performance. But also at the same time, I think what you're getting at in like what is, I guess, scare quotes impressive about the performance is that he is truly playing someone out

very outside of his who he is as a person his experience yeah yeah and his mannerisms and he does it rather believably he creates a character he doesn't play

rusty as a type he plays a character which is the thing that I do find most impressive and sort of laudable about the performance because certainly at least at this time there would have been temptation to play Rusty as a type and I think it's also you mentioned Capote and I think that's a good mention also because like

and obviously Truman Capote a real person so there was a template there so like yeah playing Truman Capote as a person is but someone who looks sounds moves very differently than what we think of as, like, Philip Seymour Hoffman, like, his, like, not like a gruff but warm personality who's, like, you know, the baritone, uh, right, beard, all of that. Right. I feel like what I'm indicating towards is a lot of superficial things, but this performance,

when we say that it doesn't necessarily feel superficial when you're watching it, that makes any sense. And also, any Philip Seymour Hoffman performance is going to feel or you're going to take away some kind of craftsmanship away from it because he's that kind of an actor. He's a very

craftsmanship-y kind of actor. And it's not necessarily that you see the work, but like you always, I at least, always get a sense of just like, oh, this was an undertaking for him. This was, and certainly flawless. You can very much see how this movie was pitched to probably both of the lead actors in this movie by agents and managers. We're just just

like, all right, get this. One guy is a homophobic security guard with a stroke and he's got a cane and he can't speak. And the other one's a drag queen. And watch the sparks fly and that all kind of thing, and it seems very much just like kind of odd couple-ish in its conception, and you can definitely see where both De Niro and Hoffman would have taken on this project as an acting

challenge. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I don't necessarily... I'm sure. Because even at this point in his career, Philip Seymour Hoffman had that kind of like mounting notoriety, too, that De Niro would want to work with him.

This was definitely... the year that first made his real reputation. We'll talk about that for sure, all the other movies that he did in 99 that sort of like added up to the Phillips Seymour Hoffman thing that I think really, you know, first crested in in 99. But yeah, you can definitely see where Hoffman would want to work with De Niro. And he talked at the time about, and afterwards, about how working with De Niro really made him up his game and it kind of, you know, kicked his acting to another level and yeah it's a really particular conversation that we have about straight actors playing queer roles and it's something that has definitely evolved over the

years and we've now arrived at a time where there's less patience i think for straight actors playing queer roles and there's a there's a large a much much more uh growing sentiment these days that queer roles should only be played by queer performers. And I'm often on the fence about that. I can fall on either side depending on the debate. And what I'll say about it is I think you get into a different territory when you're talking about straight actors playing gay and what this is, where a cis actor is playing a trans character. And this movie has a kind of confusing, unclear understanding of Rusty's transness that I don't

necessarily think the performance has. I feel like the good things representationally come out of the performance, if not the movie, if that makes any sense. Yeah, that does. Which is why, like, obviously we would want a trans person playing a trans person. a trans character because I don't think it's the same thing as straight versus gay in terms of who is playing this character. But I think in terms of especially the time, Philip Seymour Hoffman does a good job of making that story kind of clear, even if the movie kind of flubs it.

Yeah, I think there is a, there's a muddiness to the distinctions that the film makes between a drag, you know, drag queen, a gay person, and a trans woman. And a lot of that feels very much kind of of the time. Obviously, Schumacher, who wrote the film, is a, you know, is a gay person. So he would have, you would think, more, you know, be more attuned to these communities than a straight director. And that's an assumption. But, you know. I do think the movie

isn't ill intended I think where it kind of steps on itself sometimes is like you mentioned the kind of like odd coupleness of it like there is a aspect to this movie that feels a little sitcomy and it leans into that sometimes

I mean like I wouldn't go so far as to say this is queer green book I definitely wrote down green book in my notes when I when I was watching this last night. Right. It's not queer Green Book, but it's not so far away

from Queer Green Book that I didn't think about it. Right. Like, um, I don't know. I think that this movie is probably trying for something less toxic

than Green Book is and Green Book doesn't realize how toxic it is, whereas this movie just has like, age problems, right? Like, this is a 20-year-old movie, so you get, the, like, type of 20 years ago confusion of, like, well, there's not that much difference

between gay men, drag queens, and trans people, you know, like, like you mentioned earlier. The ways in which it's, like, Green Book to me, A, it's the, we're going to find an explicitly homophobic character, an explicitly bigoted character, right? Who, you know, not only is, you know, has these, like, bad attitudes, but, like, is, you you know, says all the bad buzzwords and has these really sort of like, you know, terrible conceptions of people. And we're going to fix that person, literally in flawless, we're going to fix that person who becomes, you know, debilitated by a stroke. And to fix that person, we are going to put him in contact with that which he hates. And it does, within the

function of the film set up the LGBTQ character as the implement of fixing, you know, this backwards, this, you know, backwards character. And it puts, you know, that storyline burden on Rusty. And I think Green Book is more offensive in the ways in which it tries to, to be happier, and it tries to be, to tries to sort of, like, gloss over all of that and to really, like, make things more pleasant by the end, whereas this movie does still end on some pretty ragged edges, you know what I mean? You never feel like everything's gotten wrapped up in a bow. Yeah, even though it has that, like, sitcom-y, like, kind of pat ending to it, it's not, you know, it's not placating or, like, trying to assert that, like, some, like, the way that Green Book thinks it solves racism, you know, this movie doesn't do that.

Right. And I think a lot of that is Schumacher, who grew up, I think if you read any interviews or watch any interviews with Schumacher, he doesn't seem, he's one of those sort of older gay men who came of age in the, you know, You know, pre-AIDS era, 60s and 70s and whatnot, and talks about, you know, very sort of unapologetically about sort of how things were then. And I think to a person like Schumacher, that kind of happy ending holds no, I don't want to say no interest to him, but like it's not that important to him that everything feels correctly wrapped up. You know what I mean? and there's, you know, a raggedness too. You see that in all of the scenes with the queens sort of interacting with each other, not necessarily Rusty's sort of core group of friends, but when, you know, all those scenes with like the queens clashing at the community center.

I love all those scenes. All of the, you know, sort of backbiting that happens around the flawless competition and all that kind of thing. And they meet with a gay Republican group and tell them to fuck off. Probably my favorite scene in the film I think it's the one where I look at that And I'm just like, oh, this movie New of the milieu in which it was in Which, you know, made me feel good about that

So it's this is not I didn't hate this movie I didn't like this movie I think I just a movie that's not gonna age well Period But like there are still things about it that are good Like those scenes particularly I didn't love that

Rusty left that scene saying, like, thank you for your efforts to these people that are, like, basically telling them stop being so loudly queer. But I think the button on that scene is what's important. The button on that, where the last thing he says is fuck off, like, that's to me the important thing. And it's a thing, it's the kind of thing that wouldn't have been the button of that scene from too many other filmmakers, I don't think, at the time. Yes. We should mention why we added this.

This wasn't originally going to be our episode this week. And you suggested that we kind of, this was sort of on our long list for one. Yeah. We wanted to talk about Joel Schumacher. Right. Just passed this past week, Living Legend. Even though he made plenty of bad movies, none of which are his Batman movies, by the way. We're going to argue about that a little bit.

We can argue about that later, and I'll win. I would argue I don't know if I would argue that he made more bad movies than good movies but like his filmography first of all it's very pleasingly heterogeneous

like it's very pleasingly different genres and different types and it's not always easy to draw a through line through them which is great I think a lot of the articles and commentary after he died talked a lot about the way he would sort of thread

queerness through his movies, which I think is definitely accurate in a lot of his movies. But, like, I don't know if I watch a movie like the number 23 or falling down and read a whole lot of queerness in it, right?

So, like, it's not even... Like, there's just... He did a lot of different types of things. Obviously, there's queerness in the Batman movies. Obviously, there's queerness in Phantom of the Opera. And Tigerland, which, like, God, frames Colin Farrell and Matthew Davis so incredibly erotically. Like, it's really, really something.

But, like, I don't think necessarily that we, you know, he makes it challenging to sum up his career in a couple sentences, and I like that. Yeah. And I think he's one of those directors, too, that when he passed away this past week, you know, there's a certain unplaceability of his filmography. like you're mentioning, but I also think that if people were looking up his IMDB page and his credits, everybody

was probably surprised by at least one movie, including myself. Like, I couldn't remember that he had done falling down the, like, very strange Michael Douglas might shoot some people movie. The ones that I was surprised by

were the ones that he had written. I had sort of familiarized myself with his filmography over the years enough that I don't think I was surprised by a lot of the movies that he directed, even though, like, you're right, falling down is a surprising one. The fact that he directed, um, that movie 12, I think that was maybe a surprise, that one about all the, like, like, gossip girl, the movie, like, that kind of thing with Chase Crawford and, and, um, Emily Mead was in it and Emma Roberts was in it. But, like, the fact that he was the screenwriter on

the whiz and car wash and the original Sparkle. Yeah. Like those ones surprise me going to go away. He stops writing

after St. Elmo's fire and then Flawless is his first writing credit between that. So that's like 15 years, basically? Flawless is his only

solo original screenplay on his entire filmography, which I think is really interesting. Wait, Sparkle might be an exception.

Nope. Sparkle was a written with Howard Rosenman. So, actually, D.C. Cab, weirdly, might be the exception to that rule. But, like, flawless is the outlier in that, which, you're right. It's since St. Elmo's Fire, and he does get screenplay adaptation credit on the Phantom of the Opera, which we will definitely talk about. So, flawless does stand out in that way, and it allows you to give more authorial voice

onto the film than you would for something like 8mm or obviously like a time to kill is very much like a Grisham thing but he was he managed to put his authorial voice onto things like his Batman movies as you mentioned or um the movies he made with uh the brat pack like say it almost fire feels very much like a schumacher kind of a thing and the lost boys was like a big old The Lost Boys and Phantom of the Opera are like so, they couldn't, they're very different in terms of like genre, but aesthetically, they definitely feel like made by the same person to me. And it's the Lost Boys that got him the Phantom of the Opera gig, by the way. That's interesting. Explain that. I remember, I think it was an interview with Andrew Lloyd Weber saying like he'd been either friends or like professionally interested in Joel Schumacher since the Lost Boys. And that was part of why he got that gig. So the Phantom of the Opera, it's been an interesting week for me with the Schumacher obitz.

Including the people that are like, you know what, Joel Schumacher, great filmmaker, blah, blah, blah. And I want to be like, I see you. You've said some homophobic shit in your reviews about Joel Schumacher before. Or even just like, like, you didn't like this movie before this week. Like, the Phantom of the Opera, all of a sudden now, like, Twitter is like a light with appreciations for the fandom of the opera. Like, you think that movie is a piece of shit too, and you know what?

It is. It's a bad movie. It's a bad movie with two bad leads, but it's a poorly directed movie as well. And if you watch the movie, you will absolutely agree with me. I think there are things about it that are laudable. There was an anecdote going around. Many Driver tweeted this week about how a certain actress, I mean, Rossum, was complaining on set about Minnie going too big in her performance as Carlotta, by the way, I don't think

it's possible to go too big as Carlotta. And apparently Schumacher said to this, this quote, unnamed actress who is probably Emmy Rossum. Almost certainly Emmy Rossum. And I love Emmy Rossum. But basically brushed her off and was just like, honey, nobody ever came to watch someone play under the top. Play under the top. Yeah. And it's a great quote. And it is and Mini Driver's super fun in that movie It still doesn't make the Phantom of the Opera a good movie Part of the problem with the Phantom of the Opera is I think only Mini Driver knows what movie they're making

Yeah Like even Miranda Richardson is like Playing this very kind of You know seriously The other thing And like I think you definitely see this play out Simon Callow kind of knows what movie he's in as well But yeah probably

Part of the problem with Phantom of the Opera This plays out in terms of Joel Schumacher's career Joel Schumacher is actually a studio director Most of the movies he makes are in a big studio So I think a lot of the problems you see are like studio influences Kind of getting in the way of what he's doing Which is why I think his Batman movies are kind of like a miracle that or like I don't know. The studio executives were like on poppers and said, you know what, that's fine

for these movies. Well, you get why he was given all of the rope he got on Batman and Robin, because Batman Forever, as we've talked about on this podcast before, was a massive success. Just like was the summer blockbuster of 1995 that everybody had to see. It was like so incredibly. Yep. It was for somebody like me who was like, mainlining MTV, it was all over MTV, all young people had to see it. It was a huge sea change, too, in terms of, like, merchandising across different things. Like, not just, like, toys and action figures and T-shirts, but, like, that's, like, one of the first, like, soundtracks that's, like, sold as a part of the marketing package, you know? What I mean? Not sold, like, literally cash to dollars, but, like, projected onto the masses, um, pitched to the masses. Remember when soundtracks to movies not only had lead singles, but like second and third singles? Yes. Amazing.

That Batman Forever soundtrack is it had Kiss from a Rose, and then it had the U2 song, Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me. And I want to say it even had a third. And then Batman and Robin had the R. Kelly song and The End is the beginning is the end. And a Google Doll song, I'm pretty sure. It had a lot. But all released as singles. Smash your Pumpkin songs. Yes, that's right. It did.

All right. Let's go into this now before, and then we can, like, dedicate the podcast to flawless. I think Batman Forever is a head and shoulders better movie than Batman and Robin. And I don't think that me saying that is me reacting poorly and self-loathingly to Batman and Robin. I like the queer aspects of Batman and Robin. I love what the fuck Uma Thurman is doing in that movie as Poison Ivy. She knew the assignment. She knows exactly – there's always some character actress in Joel Schumacher movies

that know exactly the movie that they're making. It's like he only directs them or something. The bat nipples are great. The bat cod pieces are great. The butt shot in the opening credits. Love it. But like everything to do with Arnold Schwarzenegger in that movie, is bad to embarrassing.

Oh, I think it's camp excellence. It's wonderful. I don't think Arnold Schwarzenegger is equipped to do camp excellence. I really don't. That's the thing. That is a movie that is hyper aware of Arnold Schwarzenegger's limitations and uses them to its advantage and gives him the stupidest shit to say. I think, it's like, is he bad?

Sure. But this is a movie that knows that this performer can't act and, like, works very well within the limited, uh, you know, framework that that actor can kind of offer and like... Here's what I will say. It works it down to a science. I think it's great. I'm perfectly happy camping up Batman and making it feel fun and whatever.

I think the line where you cross is making something so stupid, L.O.L. You know what I mean? Like, doesn't to me equate to camp. Excellence. Like, I just, there is a line in that movie where at some point it just becomes too stupid to enjoy. No, no, there's, that line doesn't exist. I mean, here's the thing. That, I don't know. I think all of the things that are- Also, Alicia Silverstone is bad in it. She's pretty bad. I don't think she's bad overall, but she's bad in it. Yes. Yes, I agree with that. However, I think in terms of just like, simple like plot movements.

I think Batman and Robin makes way more like sense. Even for all of the lunacy of that movie, there's some stuff that happens in Batman Forever that the last time I watched it, I was like, wait, what, what's happening? I don't understand how we got from A to B. I like the kind of

that Batman Forever can be campy and like bright and vibrance. And then there is actually kind of this undercurrent. current of darkness and, like, violence to it. That is really fascinating to me. And Batman and Robin kind of has none of that. It's like it goes whole hog into this other... There's just no gravity to it.

I think it's a lot of fun. I will say this. I've seen Batman Forever a lot more recently than I've seen Batman and Robin. I probably haven't seen Batman and Robin in the 2000s. And if HBO Max would ever get its fucking shit together and make itself available on Roku, I can watch both of those movies. Right now, I can only watch HBO Max on my computer, and I'm working when I'm on my computer. So it's not possible.

So at some point, soon, hopefully, I will watch Batman and Robin again, and maybe I will have a different opinion now. But, like, I'm standing by ground. Just like on movie terms, in a way that a lot of Zupriero movies today do not. I also, all right, we're not going to get down this radical, but I will say, It, holding it up against the Nolan movies to me is always very stupid. The Nolan movies are doing something completely different, and it's not bad that they're doing something completely different. They, you, you have to do some, like, you have to differentiate. You have to go a different direction when you're starting something over.

That's why the Ben Affleck movies make no sense, because it's not doing anything differently. It's not starting over. It's just a poor imitation of other things. That is the problem with the Joel Schumacher. movies and I think why the perception of those movies was so soured immediately

because they do try to have a through line with the Tim Burton movies and those are like the Tim Burton movies people forget that that's a huge reason why cultural sentiment to the Schumacher movies is so bad because

like it they weren't they didn't used to be compared to the Nolan movies obviously but like they were always compared to the Tim Burton movies and always in the negative because there's such a complete, you know, pivot point. It's more riffing on the, like, campiness and the vibrancy of the Adam West series. Versus, like, the Burton ones were so influenced by what Frank Miller was doing

in the graphic novels that he did for Batman. But I will say, Batman forever, or Batman returns. is more of a bridge to the Schumacher movies than people remember. With, like, the penguin, like, the little penguin army and, like, some of the, you know, sort of, like, visual stuff with the Christopher Walken character. Like, it's, there's, I don't know, there's definitely more connective tissue there than I think people realize. No, there definitely is. And, like, you can see why they leaned into, like, the merchandising. and, like, the marketing for Batman Forever because, also, we forget, Batman Returns, freaked people the fuck out.

Yes. And it was considered, like, so violent they think they lost money on it because of how dark it was that they pivot completely into this, like, Joel Schumacher's vision, which is, like, bright, you know, you can make toys off of it and, like, not scare parents who are taking their children to see this. Right. Here's how I'm going to tie this back to flawless, okay? I think a big part of the kind of the tenor of the conversation around Batman and Robin in both directions has, I think, a lot to do with things that are not necessarily to do with the film, which is, I think, a lot of people nowadays who find not only maybe they don't love the darkness of the Nolan films, but what they really don't love is the aggrandizement of the Nolan films by the Nolan fans. who are, you know, straight, male, you know, mean and are always sort of like shitting on the Schumacher movies for being what they are. And I think you have a lot of people who don't like those fans. And so a lot of the temperatures get a little hotter when you're defending

something like Batman and Robin from that because you feel like you really have to like fight for this movie's place of respect. And I think that, comes into play when you're talking about an actor like Philip Seymour Hoffman taking on a queer character and straight actors playing queer characters where I think one of the things that people object the most to is this idea of applauding those performances for their bravery, which I don't think is a thing that happens anymore. I think whenever you see people nowadays get mad at straight actors playing gay parts. They bring up this thing about like, oh, and people will tell them they're being so brave. I'm like, I don't know if people have done that

since like a decade ago. But like, the history of it is irksome. Maybe the old stuffy Farty Academy members that still like had their head in centuries past might be like, that was brave or like a degree of difficulty points or something like that. I think that might still be a thing with a certain set of people, but for larger actual cultural conversation, I mean, people don't call things brave anymore. Even when Sean Penn won the Oscar for Milk, I don't think, I don't think the general tone of praise for that performance is, oh, isn't Sean Penn brave? I don't think that was part of that.

I really don't. I mean, that was a dozen years ago, so maybe I'm misremembering, but like, I don't know. I don't know. I think Sean Penn got that Oscar. on his own sort of Sean Penn momentum. The Academy loves him. The Academy loves everything he does. And I just don't recall a lot of just like,

I can't believe how brave Sean Penn was to take on that character. Like, I don't know. I don't know. But it definitely was a thing that happened a lot, and it was super irksome. So, like, I get why that's still sort of like part of the bedrock of, you know, the dissatisfaction with this kind of thing. I think often I do still come down on the, on the side of actors are actors, and actors, part of the craft of acting is to step into

lives that are not your own and to sort of seek out these experiences in playing these parts. And part of me, and I know it's an ideal that runs into real problems, and I totally get that, But, like, there's an ideal to me that, I mean, not to do the whole Scarlet Johansson, I want to play a tree thing, but like that any actor should be able to, in theory, play any part. If you were saying that it is an ideal, though, but, like, the Scarlett Johansson thing, she was saying that, like, it's real life, like, trans people can't play themselves, which is true. Like, still, it's very difficult for, and you also don't see trans performers playing cis characters all that often. So it's like, if you really want to have balance, there should be a balance. But I get what you're saying with, like, is it true in the ideal that everybody can play, you know, something, you know, I get, I get what you're saying. But in terms of flawless, though, I don't know, I don't, I don't, I certainly don't remember Philip Seymour Hoffman being like, look at this brave performance. but then again this is also coming the year after happiness

where it's like that might actually be a brave performance where he's like sexually harassing people by calling them and jerking off and it's like just like it takes kind of a real lack of vanity to just like play that on

like this like really off-putting character as honestly as possible and also still be funny yeah I think think, like, there's kind of an air of Philip Seymour Hoffman at this time that is, like, this is the Wonderkind, this is the one who, this is the performer who, like, takes those leaps, right, generally. Yeah.

We should probably do the plot description before we get too far. Yes, yes. To loop us back to the, to the film at hand, once again, we're here to talk about flawless, written and directed by Joel Schumacher, starring Robert De Niro and Philip Seymour Hoffman. It basically focuses on them, but then you have a whole apartment building of characters played, you know, partly by former rent castmates, Tiffany Ruben Bega, and Wilson-Germain Haradia are in this movie. And then, like, some of the other characters are played by Skip Sudith, Wander de Hussussus. Oh, what's his name?

The one guy in it who I totally recognized from fame, the other boy from fame in that little love triangle. Barry Miller, the guy who plays this sort of weasily guy at the desk, right? Yes, yes. But, uh, flawless opened a Thanksgiving weekend in 1999. Thanksgiving weekend, that's so funny. Right? Yeah, it doesn't seem like a holiday weekend of any kind, kind of a movie. So Joseph.

Yes. To get us back on track with the film, we're here to talk about. Indeed. Would you like to give us a 60-second plot description of flawless? I'm going to do my best. Your 60-second plot description of flawless starts now. Philip Seymour Hoffman plays Rusty, a New York City drag queen and trans woman who's trying to save up money for gender affirmation surgery, which is hard to do when you live in a crummy flop house hotel where drug dealers are constantly ransacking the units looking for stolen cash. On one such raid, a friend of Rusty's is murdered and one of the residents of virulently homophobic

former security guard named Walter Coontz, played by Robert De Niro, tries to intervene, but he has a stroke. The stroke doesn't improve his disposition very much, but he begrudgingly goes to Rusty for singing lessons that might help him rehabilitate his speech. The two have always hated each other. They hate each other on site, and at first they go through a largely predictable thaw, where they each learn about each other and bridge the gap between them, which comes in handy when the drug dealers realize that Rusty has had their stolen money all.

long and they try to kill her and Coons intervenes and they end up saving each other and isn't that a mostly nice story about a victimized trans women and the cop who will still probably keep saying faggot, but nicely in the end. And that's time. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting movie. I kind of like this movie

more if it's like not pitched as this like basically buddy comedy or of like, you know. Again, it's not a movie that solves homophobia or transphobia or it doesn't think that it is but like I kind of like it as like this is life in this

shitty New York apartment building where like you do have a whole like slew of different characters in there there's like Roger Ebert's review described it as like a Tennessee Williams collection of sort of weird souls which I thought was kind of funny my thing here's my thing is, I think this movie has the three men and a baby problem, which is three men and a baby, great movie, great concept for a movie, really good sort of, you know, funny comedy, that onto it, for the middle portion of the movie, they have grafted a drug smuggling subplot where the men have to, like, they end up with a delivery of heroin, and they have to get rid of it, and they have to get these drug dealers off they're back and the cops are coming after them and there's this whole bizarre middle section

of the movie that is about that when it's like you're a movie about three single men who get a baby they have to take care of like I don't understand why we need to be because have this thing become about drug dealers and cops and that's sort of how I felt about flawless it fits better and flawless because of the sort of like the the building that they're in and the sort of like run down conditions and you can sort of like see where it would it arises from that organically. But I still feel like, why am I wasting all this time with, like, Rory Cochran's character who, like, runs afoul of these drug dealers and gets the shipbeat out of him for it? But, like, Rory Cochran's character doesn't have too much to do with Philip Seymour

Hoffman or Robert De Niro in this movie at all. I don't understand why, like, I'm following this drug dealer plot. The drug dealer is, like, the cartooniest thing about the movie. His name is literally Mr. Z. Mr. Z. He should be Mr. E, so that it could be like, welcome to the stage, Mr. E! Oh, here's my other, this is a question I had

in my notes, and maybe I was just not paying correct attention. Does Rusty have a drag name that we hear in the movie? You see a poster, but I think Rusty's stage name is just Rusty, if I remember correctly. I just watched it yesterday, but I guess I wasn't paying enough

attention. Yeah. Um, Rusty, she's more of like an emce of a show, it seems like, and she plays a piano for her friends who actually sing live. Yeah. I, the drag show to me, the little we saw of it, that's the other thing is like, we spend all this time on this drug dealing subplot when we could have had a lot more to do with the seeing more of the drag shows and seeing more of the like, you know, the community center stuff. And I get that, like, and all of the community center stuff is great and fantastic. And you can see, like, the root of, like, Rusty and Rusty's friends are the, like, campy, funny singing queens, and then they have this, like, rivalry with the, like, edgy queens who, like, do, like, dark makeup and piercings and, like, they hate each other, like, the quintessential, like, palatable versus spooky queens. And there's the one sort of, like, administrative queens. who tries to sort of keep the peace

and when all of these two groups start sort of brawling with each other at the one moment the peacekeeper tries to call she's like radios in like I need some butch queens here right away and finally she's just like lesbian or whatever she's like dykes I need dykes

and then you know lesbians run in and intervene and it's like it's obviously playing on stereotypes but it's also quite funny there's also like yes there's a lot of stereotypes in this movie But, like, there's a lot of flashes of authenticity, too, in a way that I don't think there were many films showing in 1999. I'm pretty sure that this is one of the first movies I ever saw with gay characters in a theater.

That was a gay movie, not just like, here's this background gay person we're going to make fun of. Right. But this movie came out, what was it, four years after Tu Wong Fu, and three years after the bird cage, which obviously, both of those are comedies. This is not a comedy. But it definitely there was sort of a continuum. And those are interesting films, too.

With, like, obviously, in two Wong-Fu, the three drag queens are played by straight actors, and in the birdcage, obviously Nathan Lane is a queer performer. And, but I think in all of those, for me as a viewer, as a teenage viewer, sort of through those years, it was valuable to me to see these characters in movies

even though I probably was far from being able to admit to myself even at that time that this was a community to which I would one day be a part of slash around so much And I think the continuum of that sort of went through flawless, which is not a movie I saw at the time I saw it for the first time last night. And wasn't necessarily a movie I wanted to see, obviously, because I never saw it. And I'm sure a large part of that reason was, you know, the Birdcage and Two Wong Fu fun, happy comedies. And maybe I wasn't ready for something that was less comedic than that. And then I, because I also remember in 2001 when Hedwig came out.

And I was very sort of like, I was not ready for that. And it took me several years before I ended up seeing. I don't think I saw Hedwig until shortly before Shortbus came out. And by then, obviously, I was, you know, more equipped in my life to accept those kind of things as part of, you know, my world. But Hedwig, I remember being like, when I was. would see those like stills in entertainment weekly or whatever that sort of shot of him's like screaming into the mic with the big hair and the wings and whatnot and I was just like oh this is scary to me and I wasn't gonna make me realize about myself yeah exactly exactly um it is

interesting kind of positioning this movie opposite uh like to wong fu and the bird cage because, like, not to use, like, a $2 word, but, like, this feels like a grittier response to it. Like, it's very, like, New York City dingy in a way that, like, maybe it was somewhat of a response to those type of, those movies in particular. It definitely felt like Schumacher. It definitely felt like Schumacher being like, this is how it used to be. This is how New York, you know, this isn't, this is a, this is a. happy and this is in Miami or whatever, like, you know, candy-colored the birdcage or whatever. It's, you know, this is hard city living. And Rusty is a hardened character, a, you know,

a tough broad by necessity. And the other queens, they're not mean, sometimes they're mean queens. I did like at the very beginning when we see De Niro's character sort of walk up to the front desk of this hotel slash apartment building. I never quite know how to, you know, conceptualize. Or just like, are you paying by the week? Like, what's happening? Anyway, he walks up to the desk and then the other queen sort of like hiss up behind him and like just like whisper mean things about him. And you realize, of course, at some point it's just like, oh, this is because he's always an asshole to them. But in the way that like it's introduced that way, I'm just like, oh, mean queens just like roving the streets and they found someone to be mean to I would watch the

fuck out of that movie um however though Rusty does get to speak to her experience quite a bit in this movie and maybe that's what I felt like I hadn't really seen yeah um that's fair when I saw this movie in uh I guess middle school um that like and some of that is like yes It's this two-hander, for the most part, when we're not, like, you know, hanging out with Mr. Z. So it's like, it could do, like, I want to see that with more of the queens. Like, Wilson-Germain Haradie is probably the queen that we get to see the most of, including the scene. He's so delightful in this movie. I really like him.

With his weird, like, cufflinks that shoot bebies. That's what I was going to say. It's truly a great, like, outfit gag. She wears these cufflinks in like the party scene, like a birthday party seat. Or no, it's a, it's, uh, Walter's graduation, right? Yes. Rusty throws Walter a party when he has done with his voice therapy training. Nice big titty's cake.

And she's wearing basically a country Western outfit, but she has these cufflinks that are little tiny guns that shoot Bibi. Shoot real babies Truly a gag But then she shoots her friend accidentally And it becomes this whole thing And she gets maybe one of the best lines in the movie Where she says She's sobbing

She says Rusty I accidentally shot my friend In the tit with my cufflings It's really good I had never I don't think I had seen Wilson-Chamee Haradia in a another film.

A non-rent film? Yeah, a non-rent film. It was interesting. And also, obviously, the fact that Daphne Reuben Vega was not cast as Mimi in the Rent movie, so it was nice to see a rent reunion on film that I hadn't seen before. Rent Union. What did you think of that subplot? With De Niro's character going to the dance, sort of like jazz dance club thing?

I love the, like, I love the, like, tango thing because like it's not and like it's annoying to be like look at what they do have in common but like Walter is a tango dancer so it's like he does have like some level of creativity and performance um yeah but he has this girlfriend who is basically just using him for money that he doesn't realize that's what it is yeah but daphne reuben vegas character he like calls her a prostitute to her face when she's not and then like like like, she's still interested in him? I hate that.

Yes. She's very much the sort of the sweet, um, patient. She's, you know, she's, him having the stroke doesn't affect her any. She sees him for him and she's, you know, constantly sort of being put down by him. But she doesn't see him for him because he's also misogynist that she doesn't seem to care or notice. Um, and then they end up together. Yeah. Yeah.

Just to show us that Walter is becoming more sensitive. Again, things in the movie that maybe if they were given more of the time that was allotted to the drug dealer shenanigans, maybe we could have seen a fuller and more satisfying picture of what's going on over there. She does, because, like, when they're basically in bed together, he's like, oh, I don't have money to pay you. And she does, like, rebut against that. And it's like, that's not what this is. Right. But still, yeah, I hate that plotline.

Yeah, I don't like it either. And it's, and it's, it's not like I don't want the De Niro character to have any kind of inner life or, like, backstory or anything like that. But, like, obviously, he's the less interesting character to me. Right. I think it's necessary that we see him as a human or else he just becomes this, like, you know, cipher who's, you know, slurring the word faggot all over the place. And, like, I don't want that either. But I wanted more of Rusty. I wanted more of the queens. I wanted more of the drag shows. And, like, obviously, that's my sensibility. So obviously, this went on that. But I also

think, like, the movie would be improved by that. Yeah. And Walter would be a more interesting character if there was a real sense of accountability, not just like, oh, they become friends and he doesn't say faggot as much anymore To the point where it's like Even at the end of the movie For Walt's health care Because of this whole shootout

He gets shot again Which like we can already assume That Walt maybe has some type of health care Based on the fact that he's been getting care For his stroke If he was a paid security guard for some place Like I would feel like there's some kind of Insurance

That was confusing to me, but it's frustrating at the end of the movie that Rusty gives Walt the stashed money that was like all for the shootout anyway. But it was saving it for her affirmation surgery, that pissed me off at the end. And like doesn't really, I think it certainly paints Walt in a light that there's not really any real sense of accountability and all of this burden is being placed on Rusty. It's a giving triification of Rusty's character, and you're right, I don't love it. There are a couple ways in which this movie doesn't go where I had, like, assumed it was going to go. I thought for sure, once we see the character of Tommy, who is De Niro's cop friend, and who comes and visits him and whatnot, and, you know, sort of like, you know, looks cockyed out the window at the apartment of Drag Queen. I was like, oh, okay, here's what's going to happen. This guy is going to eventually rough up rusty or say something horrible or be really, like, nasty and homophobic to the drag queen characters, and Kuntz is going to have his big sort of moment of humanity and defend the queens against this guy who is acting like he used to act.

And that doesn't happen, which I think is less cliched and good. Tommy weirdly becomes, like, part of this weird patchwork, as, you know, Ebert said, Tennessee Williams kind of, you know, collection of people. He's there at the party, the aforementioned BB assault party, and where there's also a background couple of, like, we assume these people live in a building, but there's, like, these two straight people that are doing poppers. Yes. All of the sudden just, like, descend into making out.

Like, that's not what poppers do. Also, the guy from the deli who comes to deliver food and is, like, super hot, so they get him to, like, stick around and take his shirt off. Yeah. Like, also very, like, fun and celebratory. There's a whole thread in the movie about Carmine, the pizza guy. Yes, Carmine. Yes. But the other way that it didn't go quite as I expected, because I definitely knew that with all the, you know, drug dealer plots, I'm like, oh, okay, Coontz is going to end up saving Rusty's life.

And, like, he does. But that ending is a lot more of them saving each other and them both fighting and them both sort of like, you know, getting through that moment together that I thought was better than what I was expecting it to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's cool. Should we talk about Philip Seymour Hoffman in 1999? Yes, we should. We definitely should. The big thing that kept this movie in the conversation is he was a SAG nominee for.

for best actor. Right. Which I don't remember following what I was thinking following that at the time, but it had to have been a pretty big surprise because he wasn't, he obviously wasn't a Golden Globe nominee. That is, of course, the year where the top two sort of going back and forth as to who's going to win the Oscar, it was Spacey and American Beauty, Denzel Washington in the Hurricane, with Russell Crowe in The Insider as like the Critics Pick.

And then the ultimate Oscar nominees then would end up being Richard Farnsworth in The Straight Story, who was like, obviously, sentimental fave, critics also really loved that performance. That was like the non-spooky David Lynch movie. And then... It was rated G. Yes. Then surprise nominee, not surprise nominee, but Sean Penn ends up getting nominated. for Sweet and Lowdown.

It seemed for a while like the big awards hook of that movie was only going to be Samantha Morton, whose character is deaf. I don't remember very much. She doesn't speak. She doesn't speak, I believe. Okay. And then Penn gets the nomination as well. It's his second nomination after Dead Man Walking.

And it's sort of, it's the first of his big sort of run up to ultimately winning. He's nominated in 99, and then again in 2001, and then again in 2003, and wins in 2003 for Mr. Griver. But at the Sags, instead of Penn and Farnsworth, it is, wait, who's the other one? Oh, Jim Carrey. Sherip Seymorhoffin and Jim Carrey for Man in the Moon. Carrie, who had won the Golden Globe musical or comedy for Man in the Moon. It was his second consecutive Golden Globe after winning for the Truman Show. I think, I'm trying to remember, I think by this point, people were like, well, if they didn't give Carrie the Oscar nomination for the Truman Show, they're not going to do it for Man on the Moon.

And so, I think both the Carrie nomination at SAG and the Philip Seymour Hoffman nomination for Flawless, I think people were like, cool, but I don't think it's going to stick around for Oscar. And ultimately, that was correct. But this was like the tip of the spear for this big 1999 year for Philip Seymour Hoffman. He ends up winning National Border Review Supporting Actor, National Society of Film Critics for Supporting Actor, and that was back when you see it less these days, back when actors would win critics awards for multiple performances, especially in the supporting categories. Kate Blanchett in 2001. Didn't Julian Moore also in 99 get maybe at least one of these for Ideal Husband and Magnolia and Map of the World? the affair. Yeah, like they would tie them all. Right. So Hoffman wins for Flawless and Magnolia and Talented Mr. Ripley, the latter two being

supporting performances, but they sort of like, uh, or was it, was flawless even wrapped up in those or was it just his supporting performance? Flores, he won, uh, or was nominated, or maybe he did win. It's the IMDB credit doesn't, it's attached to flawless, but I'd have a, I, considering they only put him in supporting actor for this movie I bet that the true credit is for all three but National Board of Review and National Society

he wins for Magnolia and talented Mr. Ripley just though specifically which is so interesting to me because those are movies well A Magnolia is its own like can of worms in terms of the Oscar race and what performances were

like getting considered because it's 9,000 people in that cast. And then Talent and Mr. Ripley is ultimately, like, I mean, it got like five nominations, right? Five or six nominations. So it's like the Academy didn't hate it or they like didn't snub the movie. But like it could have gotten and should have gotten way more than it did. Yes. But it's interesting to me because like Phillips Seymour Hoffman, who's still winning prizes for this and getting talked about, is ultimately overshadowed by two other co-stars in the same movies.

So it's like his 99 kind of all blurs together where he's not that to say he's diminishing his own chances like he has control over that. But like it all kind of blurs together without any critical mass surrounding one. Right. Both of those movies get supporting actor nominations, but they're not him. It's Jude law. And it's Jude law for Ripley, Tom Cruise for Magnolia. The other thing, ducking back to the sags for half a second, Magnolia also gets a cast in a motion picture nomination. So Hoffman actually gets two sag nominations that year. And I kind of think that that best actor nomination kind of amasses, I mean, A, it's a good performance. So it's not like, you know, we're saying like, what the fuck. But I think because it's harder for him to get nominated for the ones that he's winning prizes for, a, because of the co-star thing. But like, right. He's not only splitting his own vote, but he's splitting his own vote, but he's splitting

the votes of his co-stars. That would have been a real tall order for him to get a nomination. And it feels like this is kind of a response. That nomination is a response to it. Like he got through for something or there was like a collected random effort to get him nominated for this because... Yeah. The flawless

nomination doesn't have anything else pulling on it. So, yeah. But the other thing is, so Magnolia, you can obviously see why Magnolia gets nominated for the sag, beyond the fact that it's, you know, a very worthy nominee. It's a massive cast full of, you know, very awards-friendly actors,

Cruz, Philip Baker Hall, Jason Robards, two-time Oscar winner, William H. Macy, who had just been nominated for Fargo. So that makes a ton of sense. The fact that, I mean, we talk about, you know, Ripley got some Oscar nominations, but it could have been much more. The fact that Ripley doesn't get a SAG nomination for cast really tells you the delay in which

people had in appreciating Ripley like it really didn't come for several years later the fact because like a movie that not only is as good as Ripley is but when your cast is Matt Damon Gwyneth Paltrow Jude Law K. Planchett

Philip Seymour Hoffman you know James Rebhorn whatever like all these like great character actors in addition but like when your stars are that and your movie is that good and you still can't get a sag ensemble nomination It really tells you the, it's just people, the critics and regular people were just late to that movie in general. They were just, even with, you know, the nominations that it got, they were still late to it.

Don't you think some of that response is a kind of quick anti-English patient sentiment? It was a lot of, this talented Mr. Ripley was the perfect storm. similar to the English patient in any way, but it's just the same filmmaker. It was the perfect storm of fatigue. It was Anthony Mengelef fatigue. It was Matt Damon fatigue. It was, it wasn't Kate Blanchett fatigue, but like she was also, you know, yeah, Cape Blanche.

Everywhere in a bunch of small roles in movies that are good. Right. But like Blanchet was another one. Or prestige. Or you did mention Blanchet, Blanchet in 2000. with all the different supporting nominations. But, like, Talented Mr. Ripley really hit all of these moments at the same time where both critics in the public were like, we did that with them. We did the Matt Damon thing.

We did the Gwyneth-Paltrow thing. We did the Anthony Mangela thing. Enough. And it really reminds you how situational movie awards are, how circumstantial movie awards are. And you don't have any distance. You are judging it in the moment. And that is the biggest reason why we look at Oscars and, you know, even, you know, only a few years in the past and just like, are like, what? And it's because it's just you can't ever see the forest for the trees.

You are always in the middle of this moment. I think nowadays, because we focus on them so much and because they get so much attention, there's a lot of, like, instant judgment in that regard. Whereas, like, instantly, you're just like, Green Book, come on. And you're just like, you know in the moment that, like, this is going to look so terrible in a few years. And, but, like, I don't think we had that kind of accelerant back then, right? Like, I think, I mean, definitely there were people at the time who saw the Academy Award nominations in 99 and Best Picture and whatever. And were like, huh, Green Mile and Cider House rules. You know, interesting.

but like even then people looked at the sixth sense and were like bad nomination bad nominee shouldn't be a best picture nominee and now hindsight on that has gone the other way hindsight on that one is a lot kinder so like these things fluctuate like the insider was also like considered boring or stuffy or like too long right right insider had that very la confidential thing of like critics love it but like it's not a populist movie, even though at the very, like, I like Confidential, I'm pretty sure made money. I don't know about the insider, but, um, I'm pretty sure the insider lost a lot of money. Yeah, I don't know, yeah, Michael Man movies. Every Michael Man movie is crazy expensive. Yeah. And, and by and large, not super, uh, uh, lucrative on the other end. But anyway, yeah, so Hoffman super hot this year, but like, it's your classic super hot. but doesn't break through to Oscar kind of a year. It was in these roles that are for a while

because it was like Capote was its own freight train, but it was his first nomination where it was like at the point when Capote happens, he was already one of those actors that were like, when is this going to happen? Right. And you know that he's going to be nominated at some point, but he just never gets arrested.

And I think it's because he was being brilliant in like material that's never, going to, for a host of reasons, get him nominated. Like Magnolia, the cast is too huge. Even though he, like, grounds that movie, it's like the flashier thing of Tom Cruise is going to be what gets recognized for it. Yeah. All right.

I'm pulling up... Happiness is never going to happen in a million years. Right. I'm pulling up the filmography now just to sort of take our listeners on a quick little journey through. What do you think the first thing you ever noticed film Seymour Hoffman? in was. Probably Twister

based on what I was seeing. For me it was scent of a woman and I always, it took me a while to like him because his character in scent of a woman is so lonesome. He's such a little worm in that movie. So that took me a while but yeah

scent of a woman is 92. Twister though, Twister and he's also in briefly in Hard 8 which was the first Paul Thomas Anderson movie kicking off a very, you know, lucrative and rich working relationship that those two had. 97 then Boogie Nights, which is the first level breakthrough for him, because that is a, you know, small supporting character, but one who is memorable. Another queer character. It's interesting how many queer characters he's played over the years.

And so that is a character and a performance that really stands out. So then we move to 98, where he's in Next Stop Wonderland, which is a Brad Anderson movie. He's in Lebowski playing the titular Lobowski's assistant, very sort of like, you know, fastidious, persnickety character, very fun to watch. He's in happiness, as you've mentioned. He's in Patch Adams, which, okay. Patch Adams playing the same character as his scent of a woman character. Oh, is that true? I don't know if I've seen Patch Adams.

Is a scent of a woman sequel, basically, with Philip Seymour Hoffman being the through line. Amazing. So, 99, we've been talking about, flawless magnolia, talented Mr. Ripley, wins a bunch of critics' awards, gets the sag nomination. Like, that's a level up for sure. 2000, he's in two more ensemble movies. He's really like he is your go-to guy for ensemble movies. He's in State and Maine, the David Mamet movie, and then he's in My Beloved Almost Famous,

playing Lester Bangs in a performance that if it had come after Capote, if it had come after Oscar had already anointed him, there is no way it would have missed out on a supporting actor nomination. It is the platonic. Do we think he was sixth place? Because I do think before Capote, that is the performance that he was closest to being nominated for. I, my only

counter to that is he didn't get anything anywhere for it. He got critics prizes, I thought. Am I remembering incorrectly? Let me... He was at least praised to the heavens in a way that it's like he always felt like a spoiler. And it's, as I was about to say, it is the platonic ideal of a supporting actor-nominated role,

which is, it is in a movie that is an Oscar phase, It's nominated in other characters. And every time he's on screen, his character gets a big old spotlight on him. And, all right, almost famous. The cast was nominated for the SAG Award. He gets a satellite nomination for supporting actor. But, like, that's it. The Satellites is the only award he gets for Almost Famous.

That is why I would... I got a critics prize. No, he didn't. And it's a real surprise because, you know, obviously there was a ton of awards attention on that. McDormant and Kate Hudson both get nominated. And that's where the, I guess, the acting attention kind of settled, even though Hoffman's worthy of a nomination, crudeups worthy of a nomination. It's just such a good movie. I mentioned this on Twitter the other day, but by this time it'll be maybe a week old.

But there is a fantastic vulture interview with Patrick Fuget where he tells some really, really great stories. about working on Almost Famous. And it makes you love everybody who worked on that movie so much, like, even more. And I already loved everything about it. So definitely seek that out. 2001's quiet for Philip Seymour Hoffman. 2002. So again, it's ensemble stuff like Punch Drunk Love.

Although Punch Drunk Love, it's a pretty spotlight kind of an antagonist role. But he's part of the ensemble in 25th Hour. He's really good in that playing, again, a wormy little academic. So, you know, maybe back in that send-of-a-woman box. He's in Red Dragon as muckraking Freddy Lounds. It gets a very memorable death scene in Red Dragon, a movie that is mostly a big old disappointment because of its director, Brett Ratner. He's also in a movie called Love Liza, directed by Todd Louisa,

which is a movie I've never seen, but everybody who has seen it seems to be really fond. of... scripted by his brother. Oh, that's interesting. Then 2003, again, ensemble, Cold Mountain. He's also in a movie called Owning Mahoney that I've never seen before. But again, good reviews...

Gambling movie, right? What's that? Gambling movie, right? I believe so. Yes, he's a gambling addict in that movie. Mimi drivers also in that movie. And 2004, he sort of like issues all the critical critics bait and decides to be in

Along Came Polly. And that is one of those performances that I remember after he died, people being like, you know what he's really good in, actually? It's Along Came Polly. And it's sort of the counter-programming to a lot of his stuff. And then in 2005, Capote comes along and it changes

the narrative in terms of accolades for him completely. Where all of a sudden, now he does start to get recognized. He's not in 2007 for Charlie Wilson's War. The only thing about that movie that panned out. He's nominated the next year for doubt in supporting actor. He gets nominated one more time for The Master in 2012, another Paul Thomas Anderson movie,

and in general becomes a big Oscar fave. It's one of those examples of, you know, what has he got to do to get an Oscar nomination? And then it happens, and it's like, what is he got to do to not get an Oscar nomination? Oscar nomination because he becomes like kind of an awards magnet. And the answer is what does he have to do to not get an Oscar nomination is to once again compete with himself because like the year of Charlie Wilson's war, he also has the savages and before the devil knows you're dead, the year of doubt is also Synecichy in New York. So it's like it always like comes back, it always came back around him when he's like kind of unavoidable in the conversation because he has multiple

like hands in the pot I guess. It's weird that three of his last five movies are Hunger Games movies. What a fucking bummer, man. And it's not that he's bad in those and I still

I'll stand by Catching Fire. I think Catching Fire is a very good movie. But it's weird that like that's the note that he went out on. He was also in that movie A Most Wanted Man, the John LaCurray adaptation by Anton Corby. Incredible in that.

Yeah. In general, a movie I wanted to be maybe better than it was. I think people wanted it to be like the next Tinker-Taylor Soldier Spy. Yeah, he really elevates it. Yeah. Rachel McAdams is also in that movie. Robin Wright, I believe, is also in that movie. I don't remember a ton about it.

But, yeah, he's very good. It's a great loss. It's a great loss to movies that he died. It still makes me incredibly sad. Yeah, he's my favorite actor. I love him. Really? Oh, that's interesting.

Wow. Yeah. I don't think I knew that. I mean, I think it's probably because, like, this time that we're talking about, like, 1999, this era, like, that's when I really got, like, activated as a movie enthusiast and Oscar obsessive. Yeah. So it's like. he was such a major figure of that time in the movies that I was seeing that like he's always been an important actor to like me as a cinephile so he's in so many movies I love and he's so I mean I'll use the word again admirably but he will so admirably often take parts that are not the most likable parts of movies which is great and which you know I think shows says a lot about the kind of

of roles he was seeking out and the kind of actor that he is. I not always, but I sometimes found his techniques and style to be a lot.

I sometimes, I think Flawless is a movie that I generally think it's a good performance, but there are times where the sort of the voice he's created for this character both figuratively but also literally, the voice he is using, takes me out of the performance.

There are sometimes when I'm just like, you really worked on that, didn't you? Like, you really, like, put a lot of elbow grease into, you know, in the way this character speaks, and sometimes it just doesn't feel natural. For an actor who often got praised for his naturalism, he could do unnatural a lot. It could really, you know, you could, you could off, not often, but you could occasionally see the work. And I think in flawless, like you could maybe, I mean, I don't know, I'm not going to play armchair psychologist, but it is worth noting that flawless is his first lead role. Yeah, it's definitely worth knowing. Unless I'm mistaken. No, I think you're right. Let me, uh,

yeah, right? he was your classic supporting actor God the movies he was in before I realized where he's in when a man loves a woman he's in the getaway he's in leap of faith with Steve Martin that movie

he's in nobody's fool I mean never really stopped working since he started working yeah but yeah it's a bummer It's a loss to movies. Definitely, for sure. De Niro is at an interesting point in his career at this juncture, right?

Where he's, it's still how many years prior to... Oh, wait, is this the same years, analyze this? I guess so. No, was that 98? No, because wasn't it... Hold on a second, let me look. Because I remember there being the joke. at the MTV Movie Awards.

Griffin Newman and I always talk about this. The joke at the MTV Movie Awards the year that Lisa Kudrow hosted, where she and Billy Crystal joke about the movie, because she's also going to analyze this, the movie getting to $100 million. And I remember when she hosted the MTV Movie Awards, there was a big phantom menace set piece.

And that was obviously 1999. So, why won't Wikipedia just let me have a frickin' filmography for pizza? Analyze this was 99. Okay. So, and Analyze this was something of a comeback moment for De Niro, who had spent the 90s kind of, not like, gone, but like, it's a real interesting mix of films in the 90s, where you mentioned here in the outline that his last Oscar nomination at this point in his. career is for Cape Fear, one of my favorite performances of his. He is terrifying in that movie, just absolutely utterly terrifying. I wouldn't see that movie for years. I was 11 years old when that movie came out, and every thing I saw about that movie scared the shit out of me. And like,

oh my God. But so he moves on from that. He's in films like Mad Dog and Glory, where it's a, comedic thing. And I think the gag of Magdog and Glory is he's the nice guy and Bill Murray is the mobster, which like, hearty har-har. He's a supporting performance in

this boy's life with DiCaprio. He's a supporting performance in a Bronx tale. He's the creature in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. He sure goddamn is. A dumb movie that I love. A dumb movie that was like incredibly

like consequential in terms of just like the Kenneth Branagh Helena Bonham Carter of it all right um he's obviously the lead in casino the big sort of Goodfellas reunion which doesn't do well in the way I think people expected it to it does really well for Sharon Stone

but like not so well for anybody else um that same year for whatever I don't I still don't understand it because that's an incredible movie um it's just very long and I think It's weird to say casino's violent because obviously so is Goodfellas. But I feel like because we had already seen Goodfellas, the violence in Casino did, like, couldn't help but feel gratuitous just because, like, we've seen a whole movie of this.

Like, I don't know entirely what the point is of, like, just, like, doing it all again. Goodfellas, I suppose, also is a little bit more, like, out on the diving board than Casino is. Casino is pretty straightforward, like just classic movie making, whereas, like, Goodfellas feels like maybe more revolutionary, I guess, I don't know. Yeah. And Casino's a little stad, I guess. I don't know. And for De Niro, Casino, his performance in Casino gets fully overshadowed by the fact that

it's the same year as Heat, which is like the anticipated, you know, De Niro Pacino together again, they have that great scene in the diner and whatnot. heat is another movie it's not like heat wasn't a big thing when it came out but like there was definitely a learning curve to appreciating heat because heat was very long and very kind of particular about itself and it wasn't it's not a popcorn movie even though it's not it's a crowd pleaser for the crowd that is going to see heat like if you're the kind of of person that looks at heat and thinks that's a movie for me, it's a movie for you, it is. The thing about heat, it does baffle me that we could absolutely do an episode

on heat. I don't know when we would do that because the last thing we need is... Block out several hours. Yeah. Well, no, like, it's also like, do we, we don't necessarily unpack the things that are unpacked all the time. What are we going to bring the heat? That other people, you know what I mean? Like,

we're going to bring the heat to heat, baby. So heat happens. And then he, after Heat, though, he sort of retreats into, like, the fan is a weird movie where he plays an obsessed baseball fan who goes, like, who sneaks. Like, kidnaps the baseball player's son or something? He, like, sneaks into a baseball game as the umpire to kill Wesley Snipes. It's all their way. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's trash. It's junk, right? It's Tony Scott. So, like, it's, you know, it's at times enjoyable trash. But even among Tony Scott movies, nobody really seems to like the

and all that much. He's a very small role in sleepers. He's like the good priest in sleepers, which is a movie about child sexual abuse by adults. The fact that he plays a priest and you're like, uh-oh, and you're like, no, no, no, no.

He's the nice priest. It's fine. Marvin's room. He's in a very small role as the sort of like kindly doctor in Marvin's room. What is faithful? Oh, share and Chas Pomerty. He's in

Faithful with Cher and Chaz Pomeroyntary. That's interesting. He's in Copland, which we definitely need to do. I would really rather not... Nope. I want to. I'm going to make... I'm going to wear you down. Look at this cast.

Stallone, Kytel, Lyota, De Niro. Yeah, it was a big thing for Stallone. He put a bunch of weight and... Edie Falco. Annabella Shiora. I'm going to wear you down. As you, you, your confidence in winning the argument about Batman and Robin is my confidence about getting you to do Copland. What's going to happen?

L. 97's a fun year for him. It's Copland, obviously, but it's Jackie Brown, which he gets a sort of featured supporting role in that. And Wag the Dog. Like one of the least discussed things about that movie. Yeah, it's very true. It's not like he's bad in it, but he's... It's a little weird that he took that role.

It's not a showy role. Like, he's not bad. He's funny. It's not showy, yeah. Yeah. He really sort of like eases into the ensemble in that movie, which is not a thing that's easy for Robert De Niro to do. Wag the Dog is so good. It's such a good movie.

Which gets more attention for Dustin Hoffman. Hoffman gets the Oscar nomination, deservedly so. Hoffman's great. But like De Niro playing off of Hoffman as the sort of slightly bemused political strategist, who doesn't quite know how to handle. this this Robert Evans-esque movie producer very good very funny and and dark that movie you know gets dark and but like these movies it's not like they've it's a real departure from like De Niro the movie star which he had sort of been for a while and I think taking kind of the backseat even if it's not intentionally so like what these movies get discussed for

it's definitely a backseat it's a decade of take him taking a backseat to other performers. And I think that speaks well of him and speaks well of his sort of generosity as a performer. But I think all of a sudden then in 99, where he's in Analyze This and Flawless, you see him start to step back into that spotly. Whereas like, Analyze this, it's definitely the two-hander with him and Crystal. It's not like he's, you know, taking the movie away from Crystal, but like it's very much De Niro playing the mobster as, you know, a funny. Yeah, it's a subversion of the tropes we're used to seeing De Niro play

or what he's famous for. And flawless, also a two-hander, but again, you can see where he looks at this as like, oh, he's a homophobic cop with a stroke. You know, it's, there's a lot of meat on those bones. There's, you know, maybe an award in my future for it.

And, like, all of that is to say for as much as, like, 99, he crawls back and, like, he's, you know, sort of like De Niro, back on top. And then the 2000s is just, like, just absolute dive bomb into, even with Meet the Parents as like as a high starting point, but like that is your decade of Rocky and Bullwinkle and City by the Sea and 15 minutes and, you know. A lot of junk. A lot of junk. The score. Yeah, which again, you could see where the score might

have been, because that was the Brando's in, right? Him and Brando and Edward Norman. And it's just like, I remember that movie got sold as, like, three generations of elite acting talent, and it's like four, what for the score? Oh, boy. And, but yeah, like, this is your decade of, like, righteous kill and hide and seek. And how is he credited in rent? He directs for the first time with The Good Shepherd, a movie that whenever we get to exceptions, we should sit through that boring movie. Yeah. Because that's, like, a perfect example.

You forget about that production design nomination, but that's like, oh, boy. Yeah. Crazy. Oh, I'm looking at his Wikipedia thing, and he's got two columns, and one of them lists whether he's a producer, and one of them lists whether he's an actor, which is why Rent is on his filmography, and he's apparently a producer on that movie, Faithful, with Cher and Chez Palmetry, but not an actor in it, so I was wrong about that. He's a producer on things like About a Boy and Rent and my beloved stage beauty, but he's not in any of those movies.

We also skipped 98, which maybe actually starts the, like, De Niro starring roles, because that's the year of Ronan, which that was a hit, right? No. I remember it being, like, kind of a thing. That's Frankenheimer, right? Maybe. It's also the year he's in Great Expectations, the Alfonso Caron movie that nobody talks about. It features a Tori Amos song that I absolutely love. Yes, that's my big takeaway from Great Expectations, is it features Tori Amos's Siren, one of my favorite songs and verse.

I've never actually seen the whole thing of Quirone's Great Expectations. I should at some point. I saw it as a kid, but not in a striking enough way that I could maybe talk in depth about that movie. I just think of that poster of Gwyneth Paltrow lying on her. lying on her stomach and you can see her whole sort of like naked back. It's like the entire poster. It's like, you know, the allure of Gwyneth, obviously in her big Oscar year. Yeah, De Niro is good in this movie, but it's interesting.

I think to the movie's credit, it doesn't sort of hand De Niro these big, you know, Oscar clip scenes where he, struggles through his speech difficulties to try and get out some big, you know, tearful speech that explains why he's the way he is and all the stuff, like all to the movie's

credit that that doesn't happen. But and it shows his generosity as a performer that he allows this to be Philip Seymour Hoffman's movie mostly. But as a result, I'm just like, yeah. I mean,

De Niro sets a high standard for himself, and it's going to take a lot for me to be like, that's an impressive De Niro performance because of that, you know what I mean? So I think of just like, well, what are the, I thought, I've started to think yesterday because it's like, I like, I like, I like, I recognize the greatness of Robert De Niro, but I'm just like, what are the De Niro performances throughout the years that have really, like, knocked me out? And I'm like... I mean, they're not anything incredibly recent.

Right, but even like, when I think of something like Goodfell is, one of his best movies, one of the best movies that he's been in. When I think of Goodfellas, I think Pesci knocks me out. Lorraine Braco, fucking amazing. Ray Leota, on one in, you know, such an amazing way. And De Niro is like old reliable in that movie, right? He's like, you know, he's... Well, in a lot of those movies, too, he's...

It's the cliche thing of saying, making it look easy, right? in a way that, like, what he's actually bringing to those movies and, like, this believable character, you don't, it, the movie doesn't really metastasize around it until, like, the Irishman, right? Which he's incredible in. But even the Irishman, who gets the nominations, Pacino and Pesians? Right. Yeah. Right. But still, I think that that's the movie that's kind of centering around what he is still bringing to the table.

Right. Right. Of, like, the type of performer that he is and those type of movies that's incredible. watchable um you know it subtle to the point of like you know if the movie is not focusing purely on him you maybe don't see the subtlety there right but that's why when i think about de nero the performance the kinds of performances that jump out in my head are like cape fear you know what i mean where it's like where he's going so big and it's such a and i don't think there's anybody else who can do what he does in cape fear it really is like

a singular performance. And I don't want to be the kind of person who overlooks his quiet greatness in something like a Goodfellas or, you know, even like Godfather 2, where he won his first Oscar. His, like, quote-unquote, like clip scenes from that movie aren't these big sort of like operatic things, right? It's when he's kind of, you know, being subtly intimidating. or when you can sort of see his character crossover from, you know, one type

of person to the kind of person he's going to end up being as a sort of adult mob boss, right? And I think there's also a thing of like the peak era of De Niro in the 70s and early 80s. Like, you also have a wider range of characters that he's playing in things like Raging Bull, taxi driver, Deer Hunter, Godfather Part 2. those roles are all different and like now it feels like De Niro and the movies that he's in are kind of defined by a sameness right like they all kind of blur together right is the other thing right which is why it's been so uh valuable for him to star in comedies like analyze this and meet the parents where it really does help him stand out in something like that because it's the kind of

of thing we're not used to from him. Well, and even then, it still kind of quickly became a schick. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which, like, you want to say that, like, he's gone away from that, but bad grandpa was not that long ago, friends. Oh, boy, it really wasn't. No. Yikes. No, when De Niro goes bad, it's, like, spectacularly bad. It's Rocky and Bullwinkle bad.

It's bad, it's bad, like, that kind of thing. He really, he doesn't, I guess he just doesn't do any. You know, it's small. It's all just like, you know, the best and then also sometimes the worst. Before we move on to the IMDB game, I want to quiz you on something that hopefully you didn't look up. So, Flawless, one of its other awards of note that we can mention, it was nominated for Outstanding Film in Wide Released for a Glad Media Award. Joseph, do you think you can guess the four other films nominated for? for outstanding film in wide release by Glad that year in 1999.

In 1999 by Glad, boys don't cry. No, Boys Don't Cry wins their limited release cries, which they don't have any other nominees. I'd have to imagine that they did. However, I didn't look it up because I already know it to be fact. There is something that they nominated for wide release that if it got a wider release then boys don't cry I will eat my hat I will

I will chew on my coffee mug that I have in front of me I will eat the ceramic So there are four other nominees Can I ask whether they are all explicitly gay themed or are

some of them just like campy slash like shit gay people love Okay of these movies I mean I would say they're all comedies they're all comedies okay

yes so cruel intentions is out that's sort of what I was asking about right okay yes it's not something necessarily like that they're all comedies I think

is one of them election one of them is election yes which has gay characters in it. Gay supporting character. Right, exactly. The one that won, I would say, is the only one that has a gay lead. One of these other ones, I've never seen the movie, but I'm pretty sure it's people pretending to be gay.

Oh. All right, now I've got to place myself back in 99. obviously a very popular year in movies. And this is wide releases. Yes. All right. Pretending to be gay in 99. Pretending to be gay in 99 is also a cool title of a movie that I think should be made.

I think that would be fun. Okay. And it's a comedy. And it's like big stars? No. No. There is one of these movies. that has big star, a big star in it, but these, the gay characters are supporting.

And I also confirmed, Boys Don't Cry was definitely in a wider release than this movie that was nominated. Maybe not at the time of the nominations. Who knows? Is that the one where people are pretending to be gay? This is the one where people are pretending to be gay, a notorious Sundance Bomb. Oh, Happy Texas. It is Happy Texas.

I've never seen it. standing film in wide release. Yeah, that's weird. That is weird. All right, so two more after flawless and election. You don't have the winner yet. Was the winner a popular movie? Popular, very critically well-received, Oscar nominee. Okay.

In acting? Yes. And others. Is it American Beauty? It is not American Beauty. American Beauty is not nominated. Okay. It is nominated in acting and other.

Have we talked about it on this episode? No, actually. Okay. All right, now I'm going to go through. Not a Best Picture nominee. Could have been close to a Best Picture nominee. All right. So what do we have?

It's not the Sixth Sense. It's in the Crescent. Is it Malcovich? It is being John Malcovich is the winner. A director nominee. It probably was very close because Spike Jones got the lone director nominee. That's a really good pick for that. Okay, so the fifth film is the one that it is like, what are you guys doing?

Why is this here? Did you not see this movie? Oh, so it's offensive? Yes. With gay leads? It's one of those things where it's like, ooh, gross, those guys are kissing. It's built for the audience to laugh at. Oh.

golly, and it's a wide release. A big star. Definite wide release, huge hit movie. A big male star, and it's not, um... It's not like the Adam Sandler, Kevin James movie, because that came much later. Um... You're not far off base. Oh.

Adam Sandler and someone else? Adam Sandler. 1999. What was his summer movie? Big Daddy. Big Daddy. What's the gay shit in Big Daddy? Two of his friends are gay, and there's a shot that cuts to them, like, kissing,

and the audience is supposed to say, ooh, gross and laugh. I've seen Big Daddy, and I remember none of that. I must have blocked it out of my head. Wow. That's wild. What's you doing, Glad? What you doing, indeed. Yeah, all right, before we go to the IMDB game, also, I wanted to, this is

isn't exactly a quiz, but a little interesting tidbit about Schumacher. Four movies that Joel Schumacher directed got at least one Oscar nomination. Can you name the four? Well, Phantom. Fantam got three, cinematography, art direction, and song. Both of the Batman's. No. And St. Elmo's Fire. Wait, did Batman and Robin get Oscar nominations? I feel like it would have gotten like a production design nomination or something. think it did or maybe one of the sounds i'm going to double check but i don't think it did it did not yeah it was such a bomb i don't think the oscars were going to touch it that movie got nominated for one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven razis including shit like

worst original song for the end as the beginning is the end which just like fuck off like leave billy corgan out of this he's got enough to deal with um but it only won one of them and that was worst supporting actress for Elysius Silverstone. So like, I don't know. Whatever, guys. But so, yeah, Batman and Robin, not one of them. Batman Forever, you are correct. That one also got cinematography, along with both sound nominations.

So two more. It's got to be St. Elmo's Fire, right? Nope, not St. Almost Fire. Which is also horrendously reviewed. Like, that movie was really, really important. You didn't have an original song? Why did I think it was nominated for? It did.

It should have been a nominee for original. song, because Man in Motion, a theme from St. Namos Fire, is a quintessential 80s song and would have been a worthy nominee, but it was indeed snubbed. I was going to mention it's not phone booth, even though Colin Farrell is incredible in that movie. This is obvious, and I didn't, it's, it's right there, it's the client. The client.

I was going to say, it's a film you often forget when I give you things to answer. It's a guess, yes. The client's best actress nominee for Susan Sarandon. There's one more, I'll give you like a couple of guesses, but like it, I can, it's not a very obvious one, so. Oh, there's another one. Yes. Is it flatliners? Yes, it's flatliners.

Got nominated for best sound effects editing. Was it like visual effects or something? Sound, sound effects editing. Yep. Ah. Yeah. So four movies for Oscar nominations. Good for Joel Schumacher.

I will say for somebody, as I've mentioned, who. It is not a bulletproof filmography, but there's some real interest there. There's a few little holes that I have in my Schumacher filmography that I'm interested in kind of patching up. I want to see Cousins, which is the American adaptation of Cousin Cousine that Isabella Johnny got an Oscar nomination for. That was in 1989. I want to see – I don't want to see all of these. I don't think I ever really need to see Bad Company, the Anthony Hopkins

Chris Rock movie, but I'm interested What's his other Julia Roberts movie? Dying Young with Campbell Scott, which was nominated for like four MTV Movie Awards. Like that was the The popularity of Julia Roberts at the time was that- Cool.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Julia Roberts, Campbell Scott. I will never again ever watch 8mm. that's not going to happen. Oh, no. Like, absolutely not while I watch 8mm again.

I'd like to watch Falling Down again, I guess, but, like, I don't expect that that's going to have aged super well. It is available streaming somewhere. Yeah. I almost perversely want to see the number 23 again, and I don't know why. But, like, numerology mumbo-jumbo, I am ashamed to admit, like, works on me, which is not to say I believe in it,

but, like, numerology mumbo-jumbo-jumbo works. on me. Like, I will see something with that and just be like, oh, this is creeping me out a little bit. Like, that kind of thing. So it's just like, oh, it's the same thing. Yeah, it's bad. It's definitely bad. Trying to think of what other Joel Schumacher movies, because, like, it's truly, like, like, am I going to see Veronica Garan again ever? Like, unless we do it for this podcast, probably not. But, like, I never saw that. Generally, the thing about Chul Schumacher that's interesting is, generally his movies that made

a lot of money are all very watchable. He very rarely made a movie that was a big success and you're just like, oh, I don't ever want to see that. Like Batman Forever, the client, a time to kill. Not perfect movies, but like, all incredibly watchable.

I don't remember if Phantom of the Opera ended up making a lot of money. Maybe that's the exception to that role. Like St. Elmo's Fire for as much as it got shit on at the time. And it's certainly no breakfast club. But like, watch St. Elmo's fire just for that cast. Like, it's a,

you know, it's... I mean, we haven't really talked about the Lost Boys. The Lost Boys still is like... Lost Boys is great. Flatliners is great. Like, go watch these movies. Go watch Tiger Land. You'll get so horny for Colin Farrell. You won't know what you do with yourself. That's the one that I need to see. Oh, you do. You really do. Yeah. It's one of those, like, it's a Vietnam

movie about a, you know, a, uh, you know, uh, you know, rebellious soldier and all that that entails. And yet, you'll get so horny for Colin Farrell. You won't know what to do with yourself. As horny as I get for Colin Farrell watching, like, killing of a sacred deer in the lobster? Different kind of horny than that, but like... You see a lot of Colin Farrell and killing of a sacred deer.

That's true. But it's like, but it's, it's a different thing. He's such a weirdo in killing of a sacred deer. It's perfect in that movie, incredible. We've got to do that movie soon. Yeah, Joel Schumacher, may he rest. What a singular talent in Hollywood. We were better for having had him.

We thank you for your efforts, sir. Yes. All right, IMDB game. Let's do it. All right, tell our lovely listeners what the IMDB game is. Hey, sure. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress

to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. after two wrong guesses we get the remaining titles release years as a clue if that is not enough it just becomes a free for all of hints that's the i mdb game joseph would you like to give or guess first oh golly why don't i guess first okay cool so for you i have notedly when we were talking about the movie flawless we were talking about the two that are also cast member original cast members of rent for you i have chosen another rent cast member mr anthony rap oh boy this is going to be tough

anthony rap who like gone too easy on you will always show up in a thing and i'm like oh it's anthony rap but all right there's no television is rent one of them rent is one of them is adventures and babysitting one of them yes it is god okay so i least got those two. Okay. Now, so, like, the things that I remember him in are sometimes things that are very small. Like, I'm just going to guess six degrees of separation, but I don't think it's right. No. Yeah. Okay. Um, Mr. Anthony Rapp. Okay. I used to see six degrees of separation. You've never seen six degrees of separation? It's great. I don't think so. Oh, golly, is it great?

Stalker Channing's phenomenal. Like, utterly phenomenal. All right. Two more, you only have one wrong guess. Professor Anthony. All right. I feel like there's one other movie that he was in, like, around Adventures in Babysitting Time that I remember him from.

That I remember that, like, when Rent came out, I'm like, oh, it's that guy. Um, but now I'm struggling to recall it. Oh, it's dazed and confused. Dazed and confused. He's really good and dazed and confused, I will say. Are there people who are bad and dazed and confused? No, actually, there aren't. Everybody's great in that.

Even dumb little Wiley Wiggins, who never got to do anything else after that. Um, who I'm pretty sure is the same guy who's being like name checked in the newest season of, you must remember this as doing like production work like Karina Longworth will always mention such and such done by Wiley Wiggins and I'm like is that how many Wiley Wiggins can there be in the world?

Good for him. What if there was just a panoply of Wiley Wigginses out there all working in different fields? Would be amazing. All right, so I've got three. I'm looking for the fourth. You only have one wrong guess

so I can't give you any hints yet. I am astounded at how well you're doing so far. Yeah, this is a really tough one. I was trying to be a dick. And it's not television, so it's not the Star Trek thing. What else? I may have reached the limits of Anthony Rap projects that I've seen. You've definitely seen this last one.

Oh, I did. Um, it was, I just saw it again recently and was surprised to have seen him in it. He's in, uh, Twister. Nope. No. It is not Twister. Fuck you. I was so sure.

Your year is 2001. Oh. I'll give you another hint because I don't think that's going to help you necessarily, other than to say you despise this movie. From 2001. You're not alone and hating it. Is he in a beautiful mind? He is in a beautiful mind. and he's on his known for.

I don't remember him in that movie whatsoever, but I do hate that movie. That's a very good clue to give to me. I hate watching things, but I need to see that again to like remember anything about it, but also to just be able to have discourse with you about how terrible it is.

The way that the score is deployed in that film is so offensive. It's so bad. That's a good known for, though, for Anthony Repd. and confused adventures and babysitting rent and then drops off a cliff with a beautiful mind but that's you could call it enviable yeah

good for him you have a best picture winner even if it's terrible some cool stuff and you know the thing that you're actually known for yeah so I going into the Joel Schumacher filmography picked one out for you from one of his earliest films

you have already mentioned that you love it from the Lost Boys I am giving you Mr. Kiefer Sutherland. One television, one voice performance. A voice performance. Unless he's like, it would make sense that he's like some type of poisonous thing in a, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but a, like a, like, he, he, he makes absolute sense that he would not be in the Lion King movie, but not.

The Jungle Book movie, but, like, Mowgli. Remember the Netflix one? Or it wasn't Netflix. It got sold to Netflix. Yeah, it's not that. Nobody left it. That would make sense. Well, the TV's 24.

It is correct. Voice performance is... Unless it's phone booth, which is technically not a voice performance, because you do see him at the end of the movie. No, you don't. Yes, you do. Do you? Yes. Okay.

Well, it's phone booth, so you got it. Sweet. All right. Phone booth is kind of great. The best thing about phone booth is that it's like 78 minutes long. It's so short. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, yeah, it's a good, tight little movie. It kind of has no right to be as good as it is because it is fully trash. Yes, it is. That is just spectacular. And Colin Farrell is spectacular in it. It's a sprint. The movie looks like garbage. Yes, it does.

All right. Okay. Two more. Other key for Sutherland. movies. I can't imagine that there's two Joel Schumacher's on there, but I got to say the Lost Boys. You're right to guess it, but no.

It's incorrect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, what else is he going to be? One of these was a big popular movie that he was in, that he was part of the ensemble, but like a feature, like, he's on the poster. An ensemble. Is it Young Guns?

It's Young Guns. 1988's Young Guns. Can you read for me? I don't mean to give you a game within a game, but there are six people on the poster of Young Guns. Can you name five of them? I mean, see, the poster for Young Guns is as far as it's going to get. I probably know the poster very well. Yeah.

It's him, Emilio Estavest, Luce, Lou Diamond Phillips, Christian Slater. Christian Slater doesn't show up until the second one. Okay, then maybe I don't remember the poster. It is not only Emilio Estevez, but also Charlie Sheen? Charlie Sheen. Who is a more natural fit for the Old West than Charlie Sheen? Let me ask you.

Right, right, right, right. Two more actors. One of them is Casey Samasco, who's like, whatever, I'm not going to ask you to remember Casey Samasco. But one of them is an actor who definitely went on to be in things. He was probably not known then, but... He went on to be in things. Who was Kiefer's big sort of claim to fame in his early years beyond the movies he was in?

What was the like thing that everybody knew about Kiefer, Sutherland? Drugs. He dated Julia Roberts. Right. Okay. So a very famous co-star of Julia Roberts. Oh, a famous co-star of Julia Roberts. It's not Denzel Washington.

No. And it's obviously a dude. Uh-huh. It's not going to be Rupert Everett. No, but you're warm. Dermit Mulroney? Dermot Mulroney. Dermot Mulroney makes it...

You can call him a famous Julia Roberts Coastal. Well, it's from a beloved movie of hers. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Okay. Okay. All right, so you're looking for one more. This is your hardest one to get by far. Is it like eye for an eye?

No. and now you'll get a year. Your year is 2008. So post-24. How long did that abysmal show go on? Well, it kept getting sort of like brought back, but I think its main run ended in 2010. 2008.

So, this is not... Well, wait, I should have guessed melancholia, even though it's wrong. Right. But he's in melancholia. It's not. that is okay is it mirrors it's mirrors it's mirrors alexander a ha's mirrors mirrors which has like the grossest scene I have maybe

ever seen in a movie I've never seen mirrors but I should right at some point you kind of should like for a trashy really gory horror movie like go to mirrors Alexander AHA makes good movies. Like, AHA, Aja, how do we pronounce that? His Hives have eyes movie is really good and horrifying. Problematic Fave, high tension. Yeah. Super problematic.

But someone who, I forget what the actress is that's in mirror. It's not Allie Larder, but it's like that. Amy Smart. Amy Smart. Oh, Amy Smart. Okay. Also, Paula Patton. Paula Patton

Love Paula Patton She's the wife in the movie though But the scene has I guess Amy Smart And like What the mirrors do is like The mirrors are haunted And they can make like things happen

And you do things The mirror Amy Smart While the real Amy Smart Is getting in a bathtub Starts to rip off her own jaw Oh It truly I saw this movie with a friend

And, like, when it happened, we just, like, let out a sustained scream for, like, 30 seconds because it was so gross and horrifying. Mears is fucked. How do we pronounce that director's last name? I've always thought aha because it was, I always assumed he was Spanish, but he's French. So is that Ajah? Maybe. I don't know. I'm notoriously terrible with French.

Anyway, I've seen a lot of his movies. I've seen His Hills Have Eyes remake, I've obviously seen high tension, I've seen Piranha 3D. There's some interesting stuff. I've never saw horns. Why would you? Remember horns? Daniel Radcliffe with horns. I'm told by a lot of people that crawl is great.

Crawl. What's crawl? It just came out. It's on Hulu now. I think it's an alligator movie Oh Oh, I did hear about that I think you're right that it is an alligator movie

I remember people being like One of the great alligator movies I'm like is that a thing Is that a thing we're ranking now As best alligator movies? Yes We are now pivoting to being An alligator movie podcast

On that note I think that's our episode If you want more This Head Oscar Buzz You can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore buzz. Joe, my friend, where can the listeners find more of you and your stuff? Sure.

I'm on Twitter at Joe Reed. Read is spelled R-E-I-D. I am on letterboxed. Joe Reed spelled the same way. And I am on Twitter at Christie File. That's F-E-I-L, also on letterbox under the same name. We would be remiss this week to not also once again spotlight the Marsha P-Johnson Institute. You can donate at MarshaP.org.

That's M-A-R-S-H-A-P. Borg. Guys, the week this episode drops, it's my birthday. If you want to do something nice for me, for my birthday, please donate to the Marsha P. Johnson Institute. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcast. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So please write those reviews and see. out louise uh that's all for this week but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz

Nice. Nice. Ladies. There's diamond. My diamond. There's a rock. My rock. I woke up like this.

I woke up like this. We're flawless. Ladies tell them I walk up like this. I woke up like this. We're flawless. Ladies. Tell them say I look so good tonight. Say, yeah, it's so good.