This Had Oscar Buzz - 106 – Dr. T and the Women

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

This episode, we’re returning to the career of Robert Altman for one of the most bizarre films we’ve ever discussed. With a stacked female cast surrounding Richard Gere as a beloved Texan gynecologist, 2000′s Dr. T and The Women baffled audiences straight to its well-earned F CinemaScore. Erased from our memories one year later by the Oscar … Continue reading "106 – Dr. T and the Women"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. No, I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilynne Heck. don't understand women. Yeah. A picture of my butt. I would take a picture of your butt.

By nature, they are saints. You're going to be the best damn menopause patients you've ever had. Every single woman I have ever met, got something special about her. The gynecologist says there's no two alike. I guess there's no two alike. But when it comes to the women in his own life... I've got two daughters. One of them's getting married and the other one's kind of jealous.

Things are a little more complicated. Bad news. Hope you're sitting down. Kate wants a divorce. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, The Only Podcast with tense, unspoken history with Michelle Monaghan. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris File, and I'm here, as always, with my assassination tour guide daughter, Joe Reed. You really didn't have to travel far in terms of the name on that. I, my, uh, my cousin Tara played that role so, so effectively. Oh, I didn't even think of that. Yeah, the rare read. I didn't even think of that. I was like, what's just some weird stuff that happens to this movie? And obviously, there was a feast of options for me to do. And this was

the one that least kind of, uh, tripped me up on my words. And now I look stupid because I'm trying to say that you are Tara Reid. Your name is Joe Reed. My mind didn't even go there. You're extra smart. Christopher, we've talked about a lot of movies on this podcast. Famously, over a hundred. Yeah, 105 different movies specifically, not even tangentially. We've talked about good movies. We've talked about bad movies. We've talked about boring movies. We've talked about, you know, movies that don't seem to exist anymore. This film... I hated more than anything else we've ever covered on this podcast. I hated it so much. It, it, it, it, flames, flames, flames on the side of my face.

An F, the F cinema score that it got was too kind to this movie. I feel like, so the F cinema score, I was, as I was watching the movie, I was like, okay this is a bad movie there's some weird stuff in it i don't understand an f cinema score and then the whole last five minutes of the movie happens which we should maybe like build up some tension for the listeners who haven't seen this movie and then just like go into it like we had a whole two and a half hours to discuss mother i think we could have a three and a half hours to discuss the final five minutes of this movie if i have to speak about this movie for three and a half hours, the blood in my body will have just completely left. The blood will leave your body.

I just like will evaporate in my veins. Like I don't. It'll just, I... It'll be sitting outside of your body in like a Cronenberg sack in the chair next to you. Because here's the thing. This movie does not have a reputation for being a good movie. This movie is, you know, Altman's flop in an era that was pretty good for Altman. And it obviously flopped with its osir expectations, and it got the F-cinema score and all of this. Like, it's not like I was expecting this great movie. I was pretty much to be candid. I was like, oh, this is probably just going to be boring.

Like, at worst, it's just going to be dull. That's what I thought to. And I was sort of prepared for that. And it sort of, it gives you that, although even from the very, you know, maybe first 15 minutes, It starts to give you these things and it's just like, oh, I'm more annoyed than bored. Like, I'm trending more annoyed at this point. And it just gets like just worse and worse as it goes on. And the bad things about it just like, it's like, you know, a snowball rolling downhill.

And it just gets like accumulates more and more badness. And then the end is just so infuriating slash baffling slash intelligence insulting. And so, like, poorly shot maybe intentionally, I don't know. Where the fuck does this movie get magical realism from at the hour and 53 minute mark? Like, I just, I could not fathom it. I was so, I was like, I kept wanting to text you things because I was, but I was like, no, I have to keep this anger pure and fresh for the podcast. I cannot let Chris know how much I load this movie until we talk about it on the the podcast. I was holding a lot in. And it's just, it's also the, like, just the, the pure rage of

having a movie that is this much nominally about women. Like, it's, like, the, the cast is Richard Geer and about the Richard Geer playing the most boring man. It is Sersheronan Little Women clip Women, the movie, right? Women. And yet it, so there was, after I watched this movie, I dipped into the Rotten Tomato Reviews because I needed some catharsis. I needed to read some people who are smarter than me and better writers than me really tear this movie a new asshole.

And I was dismayed to see how many really good film critics liked this movie. Roger Ebert gave it three out of four stars. Yes, he did. A.O. Scott really liked it. Owen Glyberman. I'm not really the biggest Owen Glyberman guy, but like he really liked it. I wonder what I think about Owen Glyberman.

It's a 56% rotten tomato, so like it's a rotten, but it's not nearly rotten enough. And Ebert sort of like went on about like how like what a decent character like gear sort of displays in this movie. And I was like at best Dr. T. is a void at the center of this movie. I don't know how he displays a decent character when he doesn't display a character. It's like Richard Gere might as well be wallpaper.

And like, I don't want to call this movie a cartoon because, like, Robert Altman has done actual cartoons that are fun and great. And this movie is just off its rocker. I don't hate it as much as you do, but I'm excited for you to be as angry at something. instead of it being me that's angry at a movie we're discussing. The Ebert Review, and may he rest in his, what's a wonderful, beautiful man, but Ebert really wanted to give this movie credit for having, like, famously handsome Richard Geer play a gynecologist, and then the movie isn't about him, like, blazing a path through his female, like, patience.

Like, the fact that he wasn't having sex with all of his patience, Roger Ebert was just, like, really Ziggs when you think it's going to Zag. Like, just, like, really wanted to give this movie a ton of credit for that. And I'm just like, I'm not sure if that's the, you know, the bar that we need to clear. I'm not sure I want this movie to Zag or Zieg any more than it already does. I would like a straight line for five minutes. It's, it's so. interesting.

That's the other thing. It's just like, it is both, like, insane and yet, like, fantastically uninterested in giving us even, like, one compelling storyline. Yeah, all of it is very boring and, like, disjointed. I do think that there's this element of, like, it, you know, thinking it's going, like, presuming what we think the movie is going to be,

or what it's like purrient interests are going to be and not really doing that. Like to the point where there's a male locker room scene and I was like, oh, this is going to be the movie about the gynaecologist that has a dick in it, but no female nudity. And it doesn't do that either. But like, I don't know what Altman was on with this one.

I don't either. It doesn't feel like an Altman movie. Like, you get kind of this Texas cornucopia. of like affluent garb it not garb it like it's like it's very much like

Texas high society in this kind of what develops into natural realism but I don't I mean maybe this got away from Altman I don't understand

what he's trying to like examine in the Altman way of like all these characters and like smartly observed behavior that like you know reveal larger cultural you know ills or whatever um this is just it's written by anne rap who is the same writer for cookies fortune which was the year before this and both of these movies have this sort of aggressive quaintness to it that I think he makes work more often than not in Cookie's Fortune. Like, Cookie's Fortune feels like there's a heightened sort of satire to the quaintness in Cookie's Fortune, where, as, you know, how small townish it sort of is and how, you know, the ecosystem of this

sort of whatever. Where is, where does Cookie's Fortune take place? I don't think I've seen cookies for it, or I may have you saw it like once when it first came out in that movie. It's Mississippi. So that's Mississippi. Dr. T is Dallas, very, very much Dallas. And, but it all, but, but it shares this sort of like kind of ironic remove from the, the way that these communities sort of function, right? And I think Cookie's fortune is fine. I think a lot of people liked it a lot better.

I think a lot of people were just sort of just because, and I think part of it was because it was Altman sort of like rebounding from the gingerbread man, which I don't think too many people liked very much if I can't. It's not very good. It's also not distinctly Robert Altman in any way. I mean, like feels like a job, you know, rather than. Yeah. And so this just feels like, you know, an era, a sort of a lost era for Altman that I really feel like with Gosford Park, it becomes such a rebound from this and such a, you know, thank God that something as great as Gosford Park came along on the heels of Dr. T and the women to just sort of like, I can't imagine if I had watched Dr. T. in 2000 how thankful I would have been.

when Gosford Park came around and then he did the company in 03 and then my beloved A Prairie Home Companion was his final feature film And may he rest, legend icon, creator of

some of the greatest, I just rewatched Nashville this week too, and going from Nashville to Dr. T and the women is, I mean it's just not the same filmmaker, it's just not like there are aspects of Dr. T and the women that feel like someone's trying to do a Robert Altman.

But, like, in one of the rare cases where I just feel completely baffled in trying to figure out how this is the same filmmaker. Well, and it's just like you look at a movie, but like this was, obviously, this is 2000, so it's not one of his 90s movies, but it's coming on the heels of a decade where the 90s started out so strongly for Altman because of the player and shortcuts. shortcuts especially being a movie that really showcases, as did Nashville, Altman's gift for giving you these movies with like a dozen characters or more, and everybody, like, the whole point of shortcuts is just like there's a billion little stories, and like they're all good, and they're all really like compelling in one way or another. And then in Dr. T and the women, it just fails so spectacularly at like, really only like, really only like, Like, four stories, really.

It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's Dr. T, his wife, who has a mental breakdown, the woman that he ends up having an affair with, the most boring affair you have never watched on the screen. Oh, my God. And his two daughters, one of whom is getting married and has a secret lesbian lover. And like, Tara Reid's story is barely a story. Tara Reid is sort of an offshoot of Kate Hudson's story. get the little thing of her giving the assassination tours around Dallas, but, like, she doesn't really have an arc so much as she's just, like, a little snitch, like, that sort of the thing. And, but, like, it's...

That being said, she was probably my favorite thing about the movie, and probably the character who's, like, so idiosyncratically observed that it does feel like an Altman thing. Like, she made sense to me. Everything she was giving me was what I was hoping that the movie would give me, even though, like, she doesn't have that much of a story. It's like that type of character would make so much more sense if there was maybe twice as many characters as what is in this movie. And it could actually feel like an Altman movie

where he's doing what he does well, which is like making this like cornucopia of stories and cornucopia of like experience. Whereas the opening scene feels so incredibly small and insignificant. The opening scene in this movie really. sort of sells you on something that the movie doesn't deliver on, where it's this, like, chaotic scene of, like, classic overlapping Altman dialogue. All in one take.

All in one take. It's this chaotic waiting room at Dr. T's office, and Shelley Long is his, you know, office manager, assistant, whatever, head nurse. And she's kind of, like, barely keeping the chaos together. There's this, like, funny little moment where she, like, passes out aspirin to all of the other nurses in the office. and it's just like all these rich old ladies in this like total chaos and I was just like oh okay so like this is going to be like Dr. T is at the center of this hurricane and we're going to get

all these little like offshoot stories with character actresses and whatnot and I'm like cool I'm in and definitely or it at least felt a little bit like in the like kind of winking vein of prediporte right but the only one of those characters who becomes any kind of anything is Janine Turner who is barely sketched out as a character like, we're supposed to, like, hate her for these, like, very kind of, like, vague reasons. Like, she definitely seems awful. But, like, what is, who is, who does Janine Turner play in this movie, Chris? Like, like, you've seen the movie.

Like, I just saw the movie. I couldn't tell you. Like, who is this woman? I don't know. She, is she the one that goes through menopause? Yeah. Yeah, she's going through menopause. Sure.

But she's, like, a nightmare. But, like, why? Yes, but, like, all of these, like. Like, the old lady trips her and we're supposed to, like, feel some sort of triumph, and I'm just like, why? What's happening? What's going on? It's...

The, like, reductive characterizations like that, where it's like, that woman is defined by, like, being a lot or, like, going through menopause. Like, there's this, like, there is this misogynist bent to this movie that I'm like... Well, oh, that's... I get that, like, it's just not nailing the tone that it's trying to do, but not nailing it is making this movie more problematic than it already is. That's what I was going to say when I brought up the Ebert review is Ebert's review sort of mentions that at the time there were groups and critics out there

who were calling the film misogynist and were calling Altman misogynist for making the film. And Ebert just sort of like took great pains to talk about what a great filmmaker of women Altman has been through his career, which yes. Like, yes. I don't think Altman is a misogynist filmmaker. I think this movie does not serve its female characters well, and it's mostly about female characters. Like, the movie consists mostly of female characters. So when that kind of movie doesn't serve any of its female characters well, it's not misogynist, but it's not great. And it's just like the terms that it kind of reduces them to. That's the way I think I was drawn to the, terror reed character because it's like she has this like kind of weird quirky thing she's like all up in her sister's business has to like go snitch to her dad that she's a lesbian can we just get past the the plot description yeah i was gonna say let's move on to the

plot description once again we're here to talk about dr t and the women directed by the great robert altman written by anne rap starring richard gear asleep at the wheel uh Helen Hunt, Farah Fawcett, Laura Dern, Kate Hudson, Tara Reid, Shelley Long, Liv, Tyler, Lee Grant shows up, Andy Richter is there for some reason, film premiered in competition at Venice, then played Tiff and opened wide October 13th of the year 2000. Joseph.

Yeah. Would you like to give us an in-depth 60-second plot description for Dr. T and the Medicine World. women. Yes. Yes, I would. All right. If you are ready, your 60-second plot description starts now.

Okay, Richard Gere plays Dr. Travis, a Dallas gynecologist whose patients are seemingly all rich, white ladies, and whose office doesn't know how to handle appointments, apparently, because the waiting room is a chaotic mess of needy doy ends at all time. Dr. T. has a wife played by Fairfosset and two daughters played by Kate Hudson and Tara Reed, and a sister-in-law played by Laura Dern, but don't worry about her because this movie certainly doesn't. One day, while wedding shopping for her daughter at a fancy Dallas mall, Dr. T's wife has a psychiatric

break and dances naked in the mall fountain, and she ends up institutionalized. And the next day, Dr. T. meets a golf pro played by Helen Hunt, and they begin one of the least convincing courtships the silver screen has ever seen. Meanwhile, Kate Hudson is getting married while carrying on a barely concealed relationship with her maid of honor, played by Liv Tyler,

and nosy-ass Terri-Reed, Narks, to her dad. And Shelley Long also plays the assistant or the head nurse, and she's in love with him, of course, and debases herself for him, and it's gross. A whole lot and nothing happens, and then Kate Hudson's wedding day happens, and she leaves her fiance for Liv Tyler, and Helen Hunt breaks up with Dr. T, and there's a literal tornado, and it sweeps up his car, and it lands him in, like, the Wizard of Fucking Oz. And that's time! I'm going to stop you there. We will, I want to get into the full my asthma

of the ending. I need everybody listening to understand, to like, pull up your little Google Maps and whatever, and find Dallas, Texas. on that map. And I need you to see just how far Dallas, Texas is from Mexico. And the idea at the end of this film that this tornado... He drives literally into the tornado. Literally into the tornado because Helen Hunt's just broken up with him and what does he have to live for? And he drives into this tornado and it picks him up and it's literally like fucking Margaret Hamilton's going to ride her little bison.

past him. It's very Wizard of Oz, but Wizard of Oz, but Wizard of Oz is filmed more realistically. Well, and Wizard of Oz was also made in the 30s, and like, this is made in the year 2000. But there's like the joke shot that has like things blowing towards the window and the windows wiping. It looks like it is an, like, one of those old school Disney tram rides where, you know. It looks embarrassing in a film that has absolutely not laid any track work for any kind of like. No, that's the problem. Because, like, obviously it's supposed to look like a joke, but, like, this movie does this full, hard pivot into, as you mentioned, magical realism. But, like, you mentioned.

To take him all the way to Mexico is utterly, I couldn't get over it. I was just like, just so we can have this, like, white man delivering a baby in Mexico to, like, prove his worth to society. A true natural childbirth shown on film in graphic detail. Oh, which is fine, you know. That was compelling, at least. The beauty of childbirth. Holy mackerel. Like, I don't understand.

Like, the idea that, like, this movie must end with Dr. T. in Mexico, because most of the movie happens in, like, rich white areas of Dallas and whatever. And now it's just like, but, like, it's not like he ever wrangles. His character ever rangles with, like, his wealth in any real way at all. No. And yet, all of a sudden now we're going to take this, like, hard pivot to, like, him being. of service to this family in Mexico who, like, needed a doctor and the tornado, like, deposited him. It's just, this movie does not lay any groundwork for any of that, any of what happens in the last five minutes of this movie. It's so stupid. It's so stupid that, like, I was just

kind of laughing at what I was witnessing, not just, like, what is on screen, but the fact that the movie makes this type of very silly leap um oh my god yow um yeah indeed um yeah indeed and like that is exactly how you get yourself an f cinema score because in terms of like cinema score is all about audience expectations being met absolutely was no nobody going into the movie expecting that ending and i don't know how you expect an audience to do anything but that movie but to leave pissed as soon as the criminal role. There are certain, as we've talked about,

as recently as our mother episode, talked about how there are certain F-cinema score movies that are great movies that audiences were just not prepared for. And, you know, mother is one, and bug is one. And many movies are like that. There is also this class of F-cinema score where it's just all, and I, lucky numbers,

was the same year, the Nora Ephron movie Lucky Numbers, was the same year and also got an F-Cinem score, and I think probably is in the same bucket, where it's uniformly unlikable characters played by actors we really want to love, and like it's infuriating to watch it. And then in this movie's particular case, ends things on a note that is so baffling and unsatisfying that you just like, audiences just have no choice. It's a sledgehammer to any sense of goodwill you've been built with the audience throughout the rest of the movie. Because the movie already is like trying your fucking patience. It's so... I was going to say, I don't think this movie really was building up any goodwill to begin with. Yeah, like it's dull the whole time. And when it's not completely dull, it's gauche. And like, it's just way off the mark.

And then it does this wild, like, swan dive out of, like, the realm. of taste. Yeah. This is the most obvious F-cinema I've ever seen. What's that? I think this is the most obvious F-cinema score I've ever seen in terms of-

It's the most I've ever agreed with an F-cinema score. Absolutely. I feel like the best version of this movie has Richard Gears' character as like a cipher, right? Where like all of these other women are sort of orbiting him and have these very, very rich and interesting storylines. And he's sort of the cipher in the middle who can't quite make anything of it.

And then by the end, he, like, has an epiphany or something like that and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's the good version of this movie. I don't love this premise in general, which is these kind of movies, which are like, one man has to deal with all the women in his life where it's like nine is like that. and Alfie is like that. We talked about Alfie. But like, which is sort of a, you know, inherently sexist premise in and of itself, which is saying like all of these crazy women and the one sane man who has to like make sense of it. And I mean, the version of this movie that I like is that he's not some like sane man. Like he needs to have some discernible character trait to him whatsoever other than like his.

completely being cast asundered by his wife being hospitalized, and it's like he doesn't have the nuclear unit, and so immediately he falls into this very boring affair that's like the second they meet each other, they have decided they will be fucking. Well, like, my biggest problem with this movie, my biggest problem with this movie is beyond, like, I think there's one or maybe two scenes with him and fair,

Fawcett in the institution where the emotion of what's happening in that storyline lands, right? Where she's so far gone that she calls him her brother to everybody else in the institution, and he's crestfallen and sad and all that. And like that, that at the very least feels like a relationship where I can get a grasp on it. But, like, what is his relationship with Kate Hudson, his oldest daughter? What is his relationship with Tara Reid?

What's certainly, what the fuck is Laura Dern doing in this movie? She has nothing to do. She gets, like, this one very funny, I think, scene where she's drinking a glass of champagne while she's wearing oven mitts. She has a Cocoa Peru wig, the entire movie, and it's amazing. Laura Dern, for an actress who is usually on one, is fully on one in this movie in a way that the entire movie maybe should be. Yes. But also, but in terms of where she fits into the story. It just puts her in a bunch of ludicrous outfits and hats. She has no relationship to gear, who's her brother-in-law, but like she had like one scene together and like there's barely any kind of a connection, much less a story to that. She's, you know, has a couple like scenes where like she's with Kate Hudson and Tara Reid her nieces. But like, what's their relationship? What's what's the relationship between her and her sister? Is she like, is she like, is she? she mad that Richard Gere has sort of

like institutionalized her sister? Like there's just, she's, there's nothing. She just gives you, like, this character gets nothing. It's insane. It's, uh, it makes me so bad. Like, was she added to make this feel more like an Altman movie? Like, we need more

characters, more and more characters. Yeah. But like, what do, what do, do the fact that Kate Hudson and Tara Reid not seem to give a shit that their mother is institutionalized? Is that like, a character thing about how they're like they're rich and yeah it basically goes

disaffected and whatever undiscussed whatsoever like I there's nothing in this movie feels like real human relationships which is antithetical to what I feel like the Altman thing is like in an Altman movie even the smallest relationships feel very real and very like lived in

and whatever and this is the absolute opposite nothing in this movie feels genuine and I do kind of wish that Lee Grant had gotten her own little movie. I was sort of like really interested for like the half a second, even though fucking the Hestia complex. But that's like, she's diagnosed as Farah Fossa with what she calls a Hesda complex, which is essentially like she's, her life is too wealthy and easy.

And so she like disassociates or something, whatever, whatever. It's like it's gobbledugook. But it's like compellingly delivered gobbledy. book by an actress who, like, has some real Hutzpah. So, like, I was into that one little scene because it seemed intentionally silly, and I was on board with that. But, like, again, she just sort of goes away after that. And we are left with, and I'm going to hand the ball off to you for this one, this Richard Gear, Helen Hunt relationship. Oh, boy. That is just an absolute, like, imploding dark star of nothingness.

Yeah, it's a big nothing burger. It is the beige turtleneck of affairs on screen. I mean, it's so inevitable that they're going to fuck, and then it takes forever for them to fuck. I felt bad for Helen Hunt that it's like, this was her, like, awesome follow-up year, basically. It was this. We've done an episode on hit forward.

Like, it was just, with the exception of what women want, which was, like, a huge hit. And, but, like, at the same time, does absolutely nothing for her. To the point, like, the end of the movie is, like, I don't know how I feel about it with that character. That movie doesn't serve her character well, but she at least gets to play a character. Sure. Which I think is more than what she gets to do in Dr. T. and the Web of it. Yeah.

I mean, like, pay it forward is embarrassing for all involved. But, like, this almost feels, like, a little bit more embarrassing because, like, it feels a little bit, like, the way that she's even shot in this, like, actual seduction scene, it's like, okay, so Robert Altman watched as good as it gets and said, I need Helen Hunt's side boob again. I just, I don't know. There are, the two moments in this movie where we get its female stars naked, both the fair faucet scene and the fountain, which is sort of filmed from the other side of the fountain. So, like, she's definitely naked, but we're, We sort of have to, like, look through the water or whatever. We may need to talk about Fairfosset in that damn fountain as well. We do, we absolutely do. And then so the Helen Hunt scene, this, like, again, interminable seduction scene where, like, Lyle Lovett won't shut up on the soundtrack.

And, like, it's just the most, the least interesting, like, dinner at home in her, like, weird little open plan house. those houses, remember back in, like, that era where, like, the bedroom was upstairs, but there were no walls. You can see all of the upstairs from downstairs. I don't know architecture, but it's like, it's a whole, it's a style, right? So, like, we are, the camera is downstairs and it's looking upstairs and we're sort of, like, uh, like peering in at this point. So, like, she's at a distance, but, like, she's definitely, like, takes her shirt off

and she's like, oh, I guess they're going to have sex now after this, like, completely It's like while the chickens in the oven basically, you know, while they're waiting for dinner to finish. And this is after. It's presented, like, even, I think there's an interesting version of this affair where it's like both of them are kind of deciding, figuring it out, feeling it out who is actually doing the pursuing. Because it feels like neither, maybe it's fault of the screenplay, but it like it feels. like neither of them really pursue it all that much. It's like it just kind of happened. She never shows a single iota of interest in him romantically

until like two seconds before they have sex. But like she never shows an iota of anything before then. Right, right. And neither does he. Who is she? She's a golf pro who like, I hate it. I hate it. It makes no sense. She like sells him golf clubs like half of their scene.

or she's the one who tells them that his wife has been institutionalized. She pulls him out of a locker room to tell him that. Which, first of all, that scene is so stupid and made me mad anyway, where she, like, she pulls him aside and she's like, there's a phone call, it's your wife. First of all, she says, it's your wife, which does make it sound like his wife's on the phone. And then she goes, no, it's the police. And he... Well, I think she was trying to, like, tell him more privately is what it was.

like you wouldn't pull somebody out of a locker room with like the police are on the phone for you but like you could well right but also his reaction to it is so like weird and placid where he's his first i mean when somebody says it's the police about your wife like you like your wife was naked frolicking in a mall fountain also did you the scene where he goes to see her in jail she's in lockup um and there's these two other women in the lockup with her, one of whom fully looks like Celeste Holman, Three Men and a Baby, and she's sort of like huddled with this other woman, and they're both, like, kind of fancally dressed and whatever, and I, like, deeply needed this movie to, like, take a detour into the lives of these two women,

because I was fascinated. Yeah, I mean, that would be way more interesting than anything having to do with Academy Award winner. Helen Hunt in this film. Okay, we've got to talk about the goddamn fountain. I... Okay, let's talk about the fountain. Don't think I've watched anything more upsetting in quarantine, you know, while we have a global pandemic going on. Is Farah Fawcett good in this movie?

Farah Fawcett. I think she's either very good or very bad, and I can't tell. I think that if the movie is better and she gives the same performance, she's good. I don't know. Like, I don't know if the movie really, I can't tell either. The movie treats her from such a distance. Yeah. And, like, never really allows us to really, like, that's how it treats almost all,

pretty much all of its characters, actually. I was so surprised that, like, it's in the first 10, 15 minutes that she has this naked scene. Because I remember, like, that being one of the key, publicity things, that, like, Farah Fawcett's naked in them all. And I thought that that would be, like, a, like, a plot twisty type of situation further into the movie. But, like, it happens very early. Farah Fawcett probably has a max of 10 minutes of screen time in this movie. Leading up to that, the way she's sort of behaving while they're at Tiffany and sort of, like, looking at flatware or whatever. And she's like, she's very, distracted and she's very sort of like whatever. And as I am, as I, the viewer, am trying to parse out what the relationships between the other characters, because it's her and Laura Dern, and then they're joined by Kate Hudson and Tara Reed. And like, Tara Reed calls Farah Fawcett

mom, but Kate Hudson doesn't say anything. So I'm like, is Kate Hudson also her daughter? And is Laura Dern? Like, I was initially, like, oh, Dern and Fawcett are both X, Y. thing, yeah. Right. Like, I was, so I'm trying to figure that out. And then, but meanwhile, Farah's sort of playing this kind of distracted and disaffected, and she's, you know, Spacey. And I'm like, oh, this is all intriguing.

And then the fact that the fountain scene happens right after that, it's just sort of like, oh, well, we're just, we're getting to, we're cut into the chase really quick. It makes me want to scrub my entire body with hand sanitizer and a brillo pad. she is frolicking in the spit of children and dirty coins and water that has been recycled a million times today. I was texting a friend of mine. I was texting a friend of mine who grew up in Dallas while I was watching the movie because I was just like, you have to like, I was like, have you seen this important work of Dallas cinema? And he's like, yeah, that's the mall we used to go to all the time. And he's like, there's usually turtles and that fountain. So in addition to all of that.

Fantastic. Okay, so here's the version of the movie, I think, that, like, works in whatever it's trying to do or, like, you know, what is most interesting. Well, it's the same topic. Wait, before we move on to that. Okay, but the specific scene of the fountain that I feel like you're glossing over that we need to make sure our listeners know about as a warning or as, like, a public service, is at the end of that scene, the camera pans up into the mall to the sign of the Godiva chocolate shop.

It does. Because she's naked. She's, you know, she went topless, and then it's Godiva. And I was like, I hate this so much. It's the most unwell Godiva commercial you've ever seen. It was, and it was just like, get it? like naked lady cadaiva and I was just like fuck you I hate you so much eat my full ass yeah seriously okay but so here's what I was gonna say the part of this movie that I feel or like

what I wanted from this movie for it to like work with what it was like trying to do and still feel like an Altman movie or like the Altman movie of this that I want to see maybe I should say I want that movie to never leave the mall. Right. Like you have all of these characters in that mall. Like that's when I was like, okay, this could be like he's doing like rich ladies at the mall culture. Like his like his office could have been at the mall. Right.

Like he could have had like an office. That would have been more magical realism. That would have made sense. Right. But like that would have been, yes. And that would have then at least started to lay some track work for the fact that like this movie isn't fully existing in, you know, the natural world or whatever. And, like, I would be cool with that.

Because, like, that's, I think that's ultimately what Altman's trying to get at is, like, this sense of sort of wealthy, cloistered Dallas society. But he never really gets there. Like, not at the bridal shower scene, not at the office scenes. Like, we're supposed to, I think, glean a lot from just the fact of a lot of rich, fancy ladies in the same room. But it never really goes anywhere. No. Or says anything.

And it just feels like it's trying to put, like, just like check off all of Xboxes to the point that, like, Kate Hudson is a cheerleader. Yeah. You know, it deals with the Kennedy's has. all of this, but it's like it doesn't ever gel into something. Well, it doesn't ever devote enough time to any of it to like make it land. And it there's not enough of these moments to then make it seem like

oh, all these short little vignettes are this kind of patchwork tapestry. Like it just, it doesn't work in either direction. And then you get these like goddamn cutaways to him and his buddies like hunting like him and Andy Richter and the guy from airplane and the other guy and it's just like A these scenes aren't any more interesting than the other ones and B I don't care because like I at least want to go back to the actresses I did get a full laugh out of one of those scenes those hunting scenes of them together because during one of them and this is like maybe the third time we've seen them hunting or golfing or

whatever the fuck one of them's like you know what we should do we should do a guy's weekend and it's like what the hell are you doing what the hell do you think you're doing right right i guess one of the points in this movie is just sort of this like what do you do when you have this money that you know everything you do is essentially leisure activity but like that also seems very sort of halfway thought out with like it's the golf of it all where like she has a job that essentially they both have jobs where they cater to rich people in one way or another and he sort of has this boutique gynecology practice or whatever for rich ladies and she teaches old rich men how to golf better and they both sort of have this I guess like

dissatisfaction with their lives, but I don't, like, is that the point? I kept being, like, this movie kept making me be like, I, is this what this movie is about? And then it sort of moves on to a different thing. And I don't know. It's the, we, let's talk a little bit about Robert Altman, because Robert Alton, like, famously. His other better films. Yeah. Before, like the player and shortcuts was like basically in director jail for Popeye like Popeye was a career killer for him right the 80s yeah the 80s was a tough stretch for him and it's like okay whatever I like Popeye um and it just feels like this is so much more a worthy director jail movie to the point that it feels like having watched this movie now that

Gosford Park is a bit something of a miracle that that happened or that he even got to do that movie after this. Because like this, this is like clearly, this feels like the career killer movie, whereas he had another movie that actually was his career killer. So Dr. T is 2000 and then Gosford Park is 2001. Do we think that, and they're both different studios. This is for artisan. And we'll get to that in a second because I do want to talk about the, artisan moment in time, which was only like four years. And then Gosford is, of course, our beloved focus features. Do we think that Gosford Park was already in the works, and thus any kind of director jail that could have happened from Dr. T. and the women was sort of, well, he's already doing Gosford Park anyway. So, like, that is already happening. And then Gosford Park is such a success that everybody immediately forgets about Dr. T. and the women, and

also he only ever makes two movies after Gosford Park anyway, but still. I think it's more that this movie went away faster than it is that, like, Gossford Park was just right around the corner. Because for some reason, it doesn't feel like this got, you know, held against Altman in any way.

Popeye is a much more visible... Yeah, Popeye was a more, like, visible embarrassment. This movie, because it bombed because it was a smaller distributor. It was easier for people to forget. And also just like this movie in the year it came out was like a subline to a bunch of other different narratives going on. Like Helen Hunt's bigger movie was pay it forward.

Kate Hudson, like this is her big breakthrough year. But like obviously almost famous is the story there. Yeah. It's interesting. We've now covered both of the Helen. Hunt movies that we could possibly cover from her 2000 flop streak. We can't talk about Castaway because that was a nominee. And it would be a real stretch to say that what women want had Oscar buzz, despite the

Golden Globe nomination. In a similar way that we've covered two of the three Jude Law, 2004 movies that we could possibly talk about. We've done Alfie and Huckabees, and we could still do Skycaptain at some point. poor Helen Hunt I mean she's doing just fine Oh sure but still Sure

Getting called Jody Foster in that Volta interview Did you see that? Yes Amazing Oh it's my worst My worst fear It's one of those things where it's like your head is being like Don't call Helen Hunt Jody Foster

Don't call Helen Hunt Jody Foster And then because of that you're just like Jody boy. Helen Hunt was fine. She ended up having other movies. She got another Oscar nomination after this. She did.

But, like, you watch... I watch this movie, and I feel most bad for her, mostly because it's like, she doesn't even get to have fun in this movie. No. No. No. And, like, this is a movie where she gets to sleep with Richard Gear, and she doesn't get to have fun.

Well, he also is not having any fun in this movie. He, I just, like, I understand. the impetus to cast a Richard Gear in this role, but like he's not this kind of interesting character actor for like what, like, you kind of

need somebody who's more like charming but foppish you know, like somebody who feels like maybe they're not as self-aware, whereas like Richard Gear always feels very composed and such. There seems to be a resistance

in this film on the script level, at the very least, to making Dr. T too much of a cad or a shit, right? Where we see definitively that it's Kate, it's Farah Fawcett's character who moves to end the marriage so that he doesn't get blamed for, by the audience, for, like, having an affair. We see him in his sort of, you know, doctor's office scenes being a decent doctor or whatever. Like, there's, I think all, there's, there's a big effort to keeping him a good guy, but it's carried out in a way where it's just sort of leeches from him any kind of character bits. Right, like it's so afraid of us. like losing

the audience to this character that like it just makes him as beige as possible? Yes, that's exactly. Because he can't be thorny in any way. Right. I think he could be, I think if Dr. T. is a worse person

this movie is a more interesting movie. It, you know, still might have annoyed me. It still might have been like, oh my God, like I hate this character so much. Why am I watching a movie about him? But at least it's more interesting and it's more, there's more of a story to it in that way.

Yeah, I agree. I think, I don't know. Richard Gear, especially, like, leading up to this in the 90s, because obviously this is before Chicago, so there's not really a whole extensive, like, Oscar conversation to be had about him, but in a movie star conversation is more interesting. Like, Oscar, it probably comes down to just Summersby. Shout out to our very old school Summersby episode.

But, like, post Pretty Woman, it's a lot of like basically either cheesecake fully dressed in a suit or like kind of lethario type of first night things I'm going to read you the sort of yeah I'm going to read you since we did talk about Somersby I'm going to read you his filmography from Summersby in 93 to Chicago in 02 right so 94 he's the lead in the film Intersection. Do you remember Intersection? Yes, Sharon Stone, yes?

Yes, it's Sharon Stone post-Basic Instinct when like every Sharon Stone movie was imbued with this sort of inherent smutiness, kind of. And she and Richard Gear are married and he's

having an affair with Lolita Dividovich. It feels like it wasn't an Adrian Line movie, but it could have been an Adrian Line movie. And he eventually does, and he in-line movie when he makes Unfaithful in No, 2. 92, still doing like the sexual thriller thing. He makes final analysis with Kim Basinger and Uma Thurman,

a movie I remember watching like on cable and feeling like I was watching something very sort of like lurid and sexy and whatever. And I don't remember a ton about the plot except for he's, I want to say, a shrink. he's having sex with one or more of his patients. Sure. A lot of, like, Richard Gear therapists. Yes, yeah. He's in a movie called Mr. Jones in 93,

which, like, I barely remember, but I think it's... He is, uh, he has a mental disorder in that movie, but he falls in love with his therapist. Oh, who is Lena Olin? Yes, that was, like, definitely the type of, like, uh, paperback romance, but it's a movie that, like, my mom would watch the shit out of when I was a kid. Yeah. Oh, sorry, final analysis was the year before Summer's Beat.

My bad. 95 he makes first night, the movie where he is Lancelot and Julia Ormond is Gwynnevere, and King Arthur is played by Sean Connery. And I never, wait, maybe I did see it. It was a bomb, though, I'm pretty sure. I don't think it was a bomb. don't think. Okay.

It did like amazing. Domestic, it made little over 37 million. And it made a bunch of money overseas. It was 125, 127 worldwide. And yeah, it was not well reviewed. We'll say that. I remember it being sort of the butt of a lot of jokes, this sort of, you know, Richard Gere playing Lancelot

that he felt miscast in some way. 96, my beloved primal fear, which I was watching a little snippet of yesterday for literally no reason. And the degree of acting talent in this movie that is such, like, beautiful junk in terms of, like, it's like a law and order episode put on television. It is absolutely one of the finest ensembles, just, like, absolutely polishing a turd. It's gear, Laura Linney. Hell yeah. Edward Norton, who gets Oscar nominated for it. Alfred Woodard as the judge. Andre Brower and Moritirney as, like, Gears Legal Assistance.

Francis McDormand at like the year before Fargo, no, the year of Fargo, as the psychiatrist, John Mahoney, it's just like, it is wall to wall with like capital T talent. And it is the most ridiculous slash wonderful, like, legal something. She's, Laura Linney in that movie just goes off on Edward Norton on the witness stand in a way where like any judge in the world would have had her like thrown in jail at that point just because she's like just going completely off of the mandate of like what a prosecutor is supposed to be doing. But it's just perfect. I, I fucking love that movie. It's so good. Do you know what I would do if someone did that to me?

I would kill him. I wouldn't hesitate. No. I would stab him 78 times. with a butcher knife. I would chop off his fingers. I would slash his throat open. I would carve numbers into his chest. I would gout his eyes. I swear to God. But that's me. Moving on, he makes the Jackal in 97 with Bruce Willis, which is a remake of a French thriller, The Day of the Jackal. And I remember watching it, and I remember very few things about it, one of which is that Jack Black is in it,

playing um a hacker probably an accomplice of some kind and the other is that like the plot hinges on them doing this like very quick um paint stripping job on a car where a car is a getaway car and then they pull into a lot and then they like power wash the like coat of paint off of it so it becomes a different color that's all i remember about the jackal he's the bad guy in that I'm pretty sure. It's Willis is the good guy and gear is the bad guy because he has, like, dyed blonde hair and he's maybe Euro trash. He also makes in 97 a film called Red Corner, directed by John Avinet, with him and by Ling. And it is set...

That was a bomb, right? No. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure that that's right. This is set in China. He's maybe an attorney in this as well. I don't know. Yeah.

This one, yeah, did not do very well at all. And then 98, wait, sorry, 99 then, runaway bride. The big pretty woman reunion. It's Gary Marshall and Richard Gear and Julia Roberts and the band's all back together. And I'm sure Hector Elizondo is in it as well. I've still never seen it. It's fine. I just remember the poster, which is Julia Roberts in her wedding dress, like,

put on a pair of tennis shoes because she's, getting ready to run. She's a runaway bride. It also had the Dixie Chicks song Ready to Run, of course. Sorry, the Chicks. Which gives, like, the movie an instant boost of, like,

that movie, like, kind of thrives on a song that's not even original to it. The rest of the movie is so deeply fine. Yeah. Yeah. Then 2000, it's Dr. Teen Women, but also, don't forget, autumn in New York is this year.

Which, yes. I remember. watching in like this sort of co-ed group where like the girls were all sort of like swooning over it and the boys were like making fun of the girls for swooning over it and I'm just there trying to watch a window and a rider movie and it's not a good movie directed by Joan Chen which I always find is very interesting um Twin Peaks his own Joan Chen um it's not a good movie I wanted it to I wanted to find something in it that like I the you know the cinephile of our group was going to you know find something worthwhile in autumn in New York and I just could not it is 2000 to like 2004 is like the

absolute killer of like romantic dramas of that era because like I'm also thinking wasn't sweet November I was just about to say sweet November I always like there's a lot of them that were just really bad. Someone's always dying. Someone's always dying. Yes, in Ottoman New York, Winona Ryder is the one who is dying. And I think Sweet November

die ironically. Doesn't Richard Geer die at the end of Ottoman New York, like in an ironic way? Instead, like the twist. Oh, it's stupid. Maybe. I could be wrong. I feel like one of those movies. But that's the like the fault in our stars thing, right?

Where you think one of them's going to die, but it's really, yeah. Another one does. Yeah, Dr. T. and the Women, Ottoman, New York, a terrible year for Richard Gere. It doesn't make anything in 2001. And then 2002 is the big comeback,

where... A complete platonic ideal trio of movies. Just like, it is the perfect, like, mathematically correct triangle of movies that, like, you want every movie star to emulate, like, this subsection of movies. The fun, junkie, crowd-pleaser horror movie

in The Moth Man Prophease is really, unites him and Laura Linney after, of course, primal fear. Very stupid, very fun. Unfaithful, the Adrian Line movie I was talking about is... Deeply underrated. Deeply underrated. He is... Great.

He's fantastic. He's the star, but absolutely allows himself to get out shown by Diane Lane. And I think it's, I don't... I watch that movie, and I don't see him. like trying to rest that movie from her and I was always so grateful for that because

he very well could have he very well could have been like I had just made Dr. T and the Women in Ottoman New York I fucking need this I think it's his best performance yeah he's really good he's really good he's better than he is in Chicago deeply sexy

Olivia Martinez also in that movie it's a good one and yes in Chicago which I just rewatched recently it's so good. I know that movie had its detractors at the moment. I know sometimes it's sort of looked upon with a little bit of a cock-eye

because of we sort of, we look down on Renee Zellweger's performance in that movie. People look down on a lot of things in that movie. They look down on Renee Zellweger. They even kind of are like, whatever, to Catherine Zeta-Jones is unimpeachable when they, like, it's,

like typical award the awards campaign for that movie made it seem like it's fartier than it actually is like it's a fantastic movie it's really really good incredible crowd blazer i will say gears not maybe not my least favorite part of it because i don't know if i have a least favorite part of chicago but like he's pretty down the list in terms of like the things that i love yeah i remember even at the time people being like Richard Gere snubbed. I was like, but like, I mean, like, I don't walk away from that movie talking about Richard Gere.

No, I don't and I, I don't think so. I don't think I do either. Yeah, I mean, would have been good if he was nominated, certainly. I've still never seen The Quiet American, so I can't speak to whether he deserved the nomination over Michael Cain that year.

But, you know, it's Renee and Catherine. That's Catherine. Catherine. With an asterix of Queen Latifah. Oh, well, that was the other thing, watching that movie again. I was just like, Queen Latifah's one big number, when you're good to Mama, is so fucking killer. It also comes at exactly the moment that you think Chicago is going to, like, downshift and, like, start being a movie, and it just punches the energy back up again.

So, like, it has a huge, like, cumulative effect on the pacing of that movie, I think. Yeah. I feel, like, her and the rest of the movie, fine. You know what I mean? Like, that's the, it's the typical sort of thing where it's just like singing, performing A plus, plus, plus, and acting in the other scenes where you're not singing and performing C plus, right? But you come, like, you come to the show for when you're good to mama. You don't come to the show for, like, the interstitial scenes with her and Roxy, right? So, like, you get what you pay. for, as far as I'm concerned. So, yeah, so there's gear. There's your gear, sort of, you know, most of the 90s and whatever. 2000 Richard Gear is a bottoming out as far as I'm concerned. And this movie, Dr. Teen the Women, really is indicative of that, I would say. Unfortunately.

Unfortunately. Super unfortunately. Yeah. But you were talking about Altman, and I think I, I, I, No, no, no, no, no, I mean, I think the, because we've, we've kind of covered similar territory that we would cover here for when we did prediporté, which is a lot more fun of an Altman to talk about than this is, because, like, this just doesn't feel like a Robert Altman movie. And, like, I say that, like, trying to also be clear that, like, he is a filmmaker and his filmmaking style isn't a monolith or isn't even as reductive as, like, in terms of style. that I think people kind of paint Altman into a box with with, like, overlapping dialogue or like multiple stories, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, there's other parts of Altman, too, that I love, like things like McCabe and Mrs. Miller.

He's directed so many movies. And like a lot of them were non-entities, right? Especially in the 80s post-Popi. But even in the 70s, there's a lot of movies. that are like the legendary ones. There's Mash and McCabe and Mrs. Miller and Nashville and all this sort of stuff. And then there's a lot of stuff that like,

I don't know whether they were like a thing then and we just don't remember it very much now. Like I don't, like, what is California split? You know what I mean? Yeah. But like his output is so intimidating, which is always why whenever I, because there's a lot of Altman I still need to see.

and whenever I'm like, oh, I should make a project of this. And then I go and I look and I'm just like, there's so many movies. There's just like dozens and dozens of films. I would be willing to bet because some of these are just like you don't even know what they are. I bet some of these are probably really hard to get a hold of or just flat out not available. I mean, there's some things that are even like buried below the surface that I think if people think of them, they don't even like remember that they're a Robert Altman movie, like, back to the Five and Dime Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean.

Which is so good. That's why Cher always talks about Altman as being such a pivotal figure in her life. Didn't he also direct the stage version of that? Possibly. I don't recall if that is the case. Amazing career. Thank God Gosford Park came around when it did. I still need to rewatch Gosford Park.

We need to do Prairie Home Companion at some point, just so I I can just holler at the top of my lungs about all the things about that movie that should have gotten an Oscar nomination. You feel the urgency to do so now because we're talking about a movie we hate and we spent a lot of the songs. Yeah, I almost feel like I need to atone.

I know, I need to atone. I don't like having these like angry, you know, fury feelings about a Robert Altman movie. My God. Can you talk about the Lyle Lovett score for this movie? The movie's a score by Lyle Lovett.

It sounds like a score by Lyle Lovett. Because his name was Dr. Travis, like, to amuse myself during this very boring movie, I would at random moments imagine him played by Randy Travis. Randy Travis. Helen, I'm having an affair with Randy Travis. Now that will keep my interest. Honestly, yes, true. So I did mention that I wanted to talk about.

artist and entertainment because when this movie started, I watched it on Tubi last night, which honestly, I'm always a little skeptical of these, like, free movie services that, you know, are on your streaming platforms or whatever, and this one, Tubey's thing is you have to watch it with commercials. But like... Yeah, that's how I watched it on Amazon. Or IMDB TV. Right. I will say. the experience of watching it on Tobe like the commercials were not

too over like there weren't too many of them they didn't have I don't know I feel like they came into the movie at parts where I was just like I didn't feel like I was getting jarred out of the movie or anything like that. Yeah. I was like as

for a you know an imperfect streaming system I was fine with it I forget what I had to watch on Voodoo one time where the commercials that were I think maybe it It was Bonfire of the Vanities. The commercials just fully would come in in the middle of someone's dialogue. I don't love Voodoo for that very reason.

I've had experiences watching Voodoo where it just feels annoying and it feels, I don't know. I, for whatever reason, prefer to be. Anyway, the very first thing you see when you hit play is the title screen for Artisan Entertainment, which we've talked before about how production studio sort of title cards, have this Pavlovian elicit to this Pavlovian response in us

sort of gives us this sense memory obviously focus features being the number one of those I also definitely feel that way

about Paramount Vantage whenever I see the little Paramount Vantage flagging metal yeah the little label maker logo I'm always like

oh I'm about to see no country for old men so artist and entertainment of course what's the movie when you see the artist

and entertainment logo what is movie you think you're about to see? Blair Witch Project. Absolutely. Absolutely the Blair Witch Project. Every single time I see that, like my blood starts to run a little bit cold. And I'm just like, oh, God, we're about to see it again.

And so it was weird to like go into a movie that could not be any, you know, any less similar to the Blair Witch Project. So Artisan begins, it had a previous incarnation as live entertainment. But it's very first movie as Artisan Entertainment. is Darren Naranofsky's Pi in 1998, another movie, like the Blair Witch Project, which is so, obviously both are in black and white, so low budget yet effective with its low-budgetness that... Still in that era. Like, there's something about artisan that, like, I think they dealt with a lot of these, like, very low-budget movies when it was the time of, you know, you could still have a movie, like, pie that's shot. for, I don't know, $10,000 or something, like, absurd,

and be released widely in movie theaters? Yeah. That's, like, kind of what I think of when I think of Artisan, though that's not all of the movies that they were releasing. It's a very specific niche of low-budget indies. Like, they make permanent midnight the Ben Stiller movie that I've never seen, that I remember being somewhat sort of interesting as an indie movie

back then. I feel like a lot of people talked about that for a moment. They did the movie Belly, the movie that stars Nause. The Hype Williams movie. The Hype Williams movie starring Nas and DMX and T-Boss. I have seen that movie. Ringmaster,

of course, the Jerry Springer movie where he pretty much plays himself. Yes. Ghost Dog, the Way of the Samurai, which was the Jim Jarmish movie starring Forrest Whitaker that I've still never seen, but people really love this movie. I know Nick Davis, our former guest

and friend Nick Davis, current friend, not former guest and former friend, but, you know, whatever. You get it. You get it. You understand. Loves this movie. Loves ghost dog. One of these days I really got to see it. Buena Vista Social Club. Their first Oscar nomination. Oscar nominee,

yep, is a documentary. Then obviously Blair Witch in 99. Well, Blair Witch and Stir of Echoes in the same two-month span is pretty interesting. Sturr of Echoes was kind of the... I remember Stur of Echoes was sort of seen as the alternate to the sixth sense, weirdly. Yes. And it kind of got buried because of the Sixth Sense was still making money when it came out.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is the plot of Sturr of Echoes that Kevin Bacon gets sort of cursed by Ileana Douglas? To see dead people? I think it's something like that. He doesn't see... She, like, does a spell at their house. I think it's that there's a ghost in their actual house, though, but, like, because of this thing... But don't they, like, do a seance and she, like, does some kind of incantation?

I don't know that could be wrong. And, like, to her, I think it's a joke, but, like, it actually works for him and then, like, there's ghosts in his walls or something or in the basement or something. I remember it being scary. Yeah, I should watch that again. Why not? The Minus Man is another Artisan movie, which I weirdly... Artisan ended up casting Janine Garoflo in a bunch of stuff. She was in Permanent Midnight.

She's in The Minus Man. That's the one where Owen Wilson is a serial killer, or is that Clay Pigeons? Or am I thinking of... No, Clay Pigeons is the one where Vince Vaughn's the serial killer. Minus Man is Owen Wilson. Anyway. All these things were like these, you know, gregarious leading men were just like, no, we're going to make you a serial killer.

That's fine. Candyman Day of the Dead. Cessal Be Demented, a movie we talked about last week when talking about Stephen Dorff, the John Waters movie, Cessleby Demented, the way of the gun, which I absolutely saw in theaters. And that was a very, Christopher McQuarrie had obviously done the screenplay for the usual suspects. And I think this was one, for whatever reason, I'm trying to think of what the through line for this would have been. But this feels like post-fight club in the way it was marketed, and I'm not entirely sure what exactly was the through line there. But I remember my roommates at the time, my aggressively heterosexual roommates in college, all were psyched about going to see the way of the gun, the same way we were all psyched to see Fight Club.

And again, I appreciated these movies in my own personal way. But, yeah, that's the movie where Ryan Philippe punches Sarah Sullivan in the face, and it's weird to watch it again. Yeah, it's a whole thing. Dr. T. and the Women was this year the same year as Book of Shadows, Blair Witch 2, the most disappointing sequel. So famously, watch it on your VHS while you rewind the movie from the end for new clues. It was so much business with Book of Shadows Blair Witch 2 that didn't need to be business. I saw that one in the theater. I was so excited for that because not only was I super into the Blair Witch Project

and also like all of the Blair Witch Project paraphernalia. I never was one of those people who thought it was real. I always feel like it's so strange when I encounter those people who were like, I thought it was real. Like you really did think. If it was real, you wouldn't be watching it with a hundred other people. That would be a snuff film. Right.

Like, even then. I was young, but I wasn't that young. But I was still very interested with all of the website, the sci-fi channel special, all of that stuff. It was very creepy. It was very cool. I liked it. So I was very much into the Blair Witch thing. And I was also, at the time, very much into the Paradise Lost movies, which was, I think by that point, there had been two of them put.

on HBO, and the directors of those movies, the films the documentaries made about the West Memphis 3, and I was very much into, like, the whole, the injustice of all of that. I was very internet-y about all of that as well. But those directors then were hired to make Blair Witch 2, and it was a disaster. It was just bad. And then that same year, Requiem for a Dream, another artist. Another Oscar nomination. Which, like, you kind of wonder, I mean, obviously they're coming off Blair Witch, so they would have had a lot more cash flow at the time. But, like, would artisan have been big enough had Dr. T. and the women been successful? Could they have supported multiple Oscar campaigns between Dr. T. and the women in Requiem for a dream?

I still think it's kind of a miracle that they got that nomination for Ellen Burstyn. I agree. I think without the critical support of that, then it probably wouldn't have happened. And then there's just sort of like scattered other artisan movies throughout the years Made, which is the John Favreau, Vince Vaughn sort of follow-up to swingers that nobody liked that, that Puff Daddy was in. Nova Cain, where Steve Martin is a dentist and has an affair with Helena Bonham Carter. Yeah, I hated that movie.

Yeah, it's bad. It's not a good movie. Laura Dern also in that one, probably in another thankless role. Soul Survivors, I remember, because that was a post-scream, obviously well-post-scream, but we were still in, like, the, you know, the faculty era, were all of the stars of, I feel like, and this movie poster seems to borrow very heavily from Final Destination, so that must have been around the same time, too. But this cast is... Dishku, right? Eliza Dishku is the reason why I was so into seeing this movie. Like, this was during the height of the Buffy era.

She had already had her big season on Buffy, which she then followed with Bring It On, and this was sort of the third prong of that. It's a very bad movie. It's whatever. It's, you know, young people being tracked down by ghosts or something like that. Who the hell knows? But Eliza Dushku, Casey Affleck, future Oscar winner, Casey Affleck, Wes Bentley, Luke Wilson

and then Melissa Sage Miller who was one of these sort of actresses of that era who was in a bunch of things and I always confused her with other actresses who sort of looked like her at the time but yeah not a good movie

but when I was definitely in the bag for because of Lazadishu for sure I remember one of their last movies was Dirty Dancing Havana Knights Yes Yes Ramaligari

or girl Romola Gary. Absolutely. Yeah, artisan entertainment was a moment for sure. Yeah, like to talk about like the sense memory of artisan, like it is absolutely like linked to Blair Witch to even if it's like you're watching something else that you, it gives it this air of spookiness and probably because like their logo is a little spooky. Yeah, yeah.

It comes off that way that it's like you watch it with Dr. T and the women. And it's, you know, unsettling. The artisan, the artisan logo fits well with Blair Witch, fits well with pie, fits well with, you know, a lot of... Requip for a dream. Yeah, Soul Survivors. Does not seem to vibe with a movie like Dr. T and the Women at all. Dr. T and the Women, I honestly thought that we would have, like, more, like, miscellaneous awards to talk about, but we really don't. Because, like, I thought it would have been lumped in with...

some, like, Kate Hudson prizes, but even critics at that time were smart enough to be like, yeah, no, not that one. Yeah, we're going to cut that dead weight right away. I felt bad for Kate Hudson in this movie. Her plot line in this movie is the most, is the plotiest, right? It's, you know, she's in love with Liv Tyler. She's got this wedding coming up. What is she going to do? She has at least one scene with Liv Tyler where they sort of, like, fret about their romantic lives.

Oh, and by the way, she's a cheerleader. Oh, by the way, she's a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader, which is like the pinnacle of cheerleading. And there's a scene where you sort of get the sense that it's going to be the sort of like, you know, the business of being a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. And I was almost interested in like Altman just doing a movie about that. I feel like that would have been interesting. But again, the movie just continually pulls up short from really investing in anything. and I think it hurts more with the Kate Hudson character because there seems to be a lot going on with her

and the movie still kind of keeps her mostly at arm's length. And we never really, like, what is, what are her feelings about anything? Like, what is, I guess maybe that's on Hudson, too, that she needs to maybe give you a little bit more of a window into her character. See, I thought Kate Hudson was maybe giving more than was on the page. actually. That's possible. Like, if there was any type of, like, emotional anchor to whatever this non-character was

doing, I thought that she kind of found it a little bit, even though, like, you don't necessarily know what's in her head. She at least felt kind of fleshed like a person. You don't really know what's going on in most of the character's heads in this movie. I think that's a big problem that I had with it. I think, like, in terms of performance style, like, I was a little bit let down by I live Tyler, because I think Liv Tyler is somebody I would want to see in a Robert

Altman movie, like, makes me think of Lily Tomlin, Shelly DuFall, like those type of... She could have been that in... Liv Tyler, for me, is an actress who I don't really get on board with until, honestly, like, maybe the leftovers. I'm trying to think of, like,

well, I guess the strangers, but the strangers is requiring such specific, you know, stuff from her. And it's so much more of a, it's a horror movie. So, like, it's tough to tell whether I'm so invested in this character because of everything else that's sort of, like, happening around her. But I do think she's good in the strangers. But I think it's not till the leftovers that I'm just like, oh, like, live Tyler's bringing it in this thing and I think I mean her career is sort of dotted with obviously she's in the three Lord of the Rings movies but like absolutely she is in the least interesting corner of the Lord of the Rings movies which is once a movie with the exception of fellowship where like she does get to have that chase through the river lands or whatever if you want him come and claim him all of that but like for the

other two movies, it's literally just like, well, now our requisite flashback to Aragorn and Arwen, where they're going to, like, dreamily proclaim their love to each other, and then she's not going to show up for the rest of the movie. And so I don't know if we can put that on Live that, like, that story sort of like sails Arwen off into the distance or whatever. But, like, Jersey Girl I didn't like her in, and Incredible Hulk I didn't like her in, and Armageddon it's Armageddon, so whatever, but like she's pretty bad in that. And she's like the weak link in Empire Records. I know Empire Records is not like a film with a capital F or whatever.

But like I think there are so many of the cast members in Empire Records who are really delivering Renee Zellweger's one, Robin Tunney is one, Rory Cochran is one. Yeah, but like at the end of the day, she gets the shittiest character of Empire Records, right? She just has to be like the hot one or the one. that the movie like positions as the hot one that like that era of 90s movie especially is like gonna make everybody else more interesting than the one that's supposed to be like that is undeniably true that is definitely true but i also feel like even when that movie lets her sort of have her breakdown it's it it just pales in comparison to what like

robin tony and zell weger and other people are are doing in that movie i I do love that movie, so, like, I'm not going to chin on it too much, but... Is she the only one in this ensemble that had been in an Altman movie before? Because she's in Cookie's Fortune. Isn't Dern also in Cookie's Fortune? Or am I wrong? Let me see. Again, I have to see cookies for it.

It does seem like the kind of movie that she was in, but I guess she wasn't. Let me see. I mean, Lyle Levin was, but he doesn't actually show up in Dr. T. So. Now I'm trying to remember her in Cookie's Fortune. It's been a minute, y'all, since. Yes, in Cookie's Fortune. Incredibly memorable.

Hey, Julianne Moore and Glenn Close. I mean, my God. Yeah, Liv Tyler. Yeah, does, again, basically gets two scenes to do anything in this. Yeah. But, like, performers in Robert Altman movies have delivered with two scenes. So, yeah. I just feel bad for most of these actresses.

You sign on. You're going to do a Robert Altman movie. You're so excited. And you're just given this, like, really shit material. Poor Shelley Long is giving her all in this movie. Yeah, and maybe, I don't know. I feel like I've called every character in this movie, the most embarrassing character. But, like, this movie asks Shelley Long to kind of.

self-flagellate a little bit. Yeah. It's a really sad scene to watch as she, like, is supposed to be sort of comedically, like, giving Dr. Tiam massage and, like, stripping while she can't see and preparing to throw herself at him, and then, like, bails out at the last second and hides under his desk and whatnot. And it's so gross to her character. And I will say maybe my favorite single moment of the movie is the scene where she like is peeking out from behind the wall to like eavesdrop on a conversation of his

and just the look on her face I thought it was just very funny and then the way she tries to play it off when he catches her doing that I wanted so much more for Shelly Long in this movie I was so excited to see it was fascinating to see this movie made in the year 2000 that had Shelly Long and Farah Fawcett these two sort of great TV stars of a, you know, an older era, kind of, you know, brought back into this movie when they weren't movie stars at this moment. And I was excited and, you know, let down in both ways.

Indeed. Indeed. I just want to know why this movie is still so available. This seems like watching this, I was like, this movie has always. been like available on Hulu and stuff at least in recent years that I'm like who's sitting down to watch

this that's like keeping it on these services that like what is the demand for this movie? It can't be Robert Altman because like there's a million Robert Altman movies that you've never heard of that are not around it's not like

this would actually kind of make for an interesting case for like a midnight movie or like people who still do like mystery science theater type of thing. Yes, yeah. But I do feel like in terms of its marketability, though, especially as a streaming title, is I think there is still a demographic for whom Richard Gear plays a gynecologist as a log line is bulletproof.

You know what I mean? And I think... Yeah, maybe they don't finish the movie, but they press play. It's just like Richard Gear as a gynecologist, like, surrounded by women, I'm going to see that. And it feels, I always, I've obviously been listening to Blank Check recently. They're doing their Nora Ephron series, which has been so good. And the episode on Michael, the movie where John Travolta play as an angel, a real-life angel. And that movie always impressed me as reflecting this very specific demographic of

women who loved John Travolta at that moment in the 90s in a way that I always feel like is typified by the way that Oprah was always so enthusiastic for John Travolta famously with you know hollering his name and whatnot and I was like oh okay this really sort of like crystallizes this idea that like John Travolta comes to town and sort of like you know bewitches all these women and sort of, you know, they're following him around and dancing with him and whatnot. And I feel like there's the same, that same kind of demo really is in the bag for Richard Gear. Where, like, Sexiest Man Alive Richard Gear, like Silver Fox Richard Gear, like that whole kind of persona there. And for whatever reason, like, that's a draw. I think Pretty Women probably did a lot for

that. Yeah. But I don't know. I don't dislike Richard Gear. I don't, you know, it's the handsome older gentleman or whatever, but like I'm not part of that demo that's sort of like swoonie for for gear. I could be on the right day. I'm also famously like out on Clooney.

So like I was never, I don't know. Yeah, Clooney doesn't do it for me either. Built wrong or whatever. Yeah. Maybe we should move on to the IMDB game. Maybe we should, Chris. I don't know why I'm making a greeting. Joseph.

Yes. Explain the IMDB games to listeners new and old. If I must. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or our actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front.

After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. Amazing. That's the IMDB game. Joseph, would you like to give her guess first this week? Well, I'll guess first. Okay. All right. So I originally was going to do something very, very mean, and give you, instead of Dr. Tea, I was going to give you Mr. Tea. But it is impossible, though very funny. So instead, I went back into the Robert Altman, you know, menagerie of, uh, uh, you know, menagerie of, uh, uh, brilliant, notably Altmanian actresses, and for you, I have one of my favorites, doesn't get discussed enough, Miss Karen Black. Oh, wonderful, Karen Black.

Okay. Phenomenal actress. The very first thing I ever saw Karen Black in was House of a Thousand Corpses, which is just an awful sentence to have to say, but it is absolutely true. true um she's the only good part of that movie which is terrible um all right five easy pieces five easy pieces her Oscar nomination all right come back to the five and dime Jimmy Dean Jimmy Dean no damn okay problematic casting but she is good in the movie I think both of those things are true yes um really like that movie actually I've only seen it for the first time

pretty recently. Okay. All right. Karen Black, Karen Black, Karen Black. Well, oh, the Altman connection is Nashville, yes?

Nashville, yes. Okay. Two right guesses, one wrong guess. All right. Oh, well, famously, she's in, one of the

airport movies where she's the stewardess flying the plane. I have a coffee table book where she's on the cover and it's called the stewardess is flying the plane. It's pretty cool back home.

That does sound like a cool coffee table. I have a coffee table that it can go on. Okay, what is that called, though? It's like it's airport 70-something. Am I right? No, you are wrong. So I will give you your years.

Your years are 1974 and 2003. Oh, my God. Is House of 1,000 corpses on this? I regret to inform you that House of 1,000 corpses is on Karen Black's known for. I hate this. God damn it. Karen deserves better. All right, so 1974, and it's not the airport movie.

I should watch that again for Karen. I don't remember anything about it. I think it was just background noise when I was. watched it. What? House of 1,000 corpses. Just out of curiosity. It'll watch her performance.

Yeah. I mean, she's, you know, over the top and crazy and wonderful. Amazing. Sounds perfect. All right, 74. 1974. What? A famous adaptation.

A famous adaptation. Yes, very famous adaptation. Is she in the day of the locus? This is also one of those cases that, like, we actually can't. talk about it for our means on this purpose on this podcast, but like in terms of disappointments this absolutely fits

the bill. Oh. Literary adaptation disappointment. Oh, she's in the Great Gatsby, isn't she? She is in the Great Gatsby. Yeah. Faro, Robert Redford,

Great Gatsby. Brutal. That's a very interesting known for. I agree. All right. For you, Waffling at this point. Okay, all right. This is a,

this is kind of a cursed one, but I love it. Okay. I want the Shelley Long route, and I'm not going to give you Shelly Long, but I'm going to give you her most famous co-star

who started with her for many years on television. Ted Danson. Ooh. There are two television shows. Two television shows. Good place. Nope. Okay, cheers.

Yes. Okay, which other television show is it going to be? I don't want to blow this already, so I'm going to try to figure out what the two movies are first, because there's multiple shows that it could be. King of television, Ted Danson. Exactly. I had to immediately throw out Good Place, like an idiot. I want that movie because. you said it's cursed. I imagine

or like how much more curse could it be if this is not there. But it has to be the movie he did with Whoopi where he's in blackface. You are of course referring to Made in America and that is not. Made in America.

That is not. He's not blackface in the movie. He was in blackface at a Friars Club roast around the time. I thought it was in the movie. I don't believe so. I know that they are in a relationship in the movie, and of course they were in a relationship in real life. But I think the only time he was in Blackface, and maybe our listeners

can correct me if I'm wrong, was at that Friars Club dinner where she told him it would be really funny if he would go out in Blackface, and he did, and it was not. Yeah, that's called made in America, but that is not one of the four. So that's two strikes. Okay. So your years... I didn't really think that it was a guess, but that's fine. Oh. Oh, okay. Because I know that I'm getting one of these. I know I'm getting one of these. Three men

and a baby. Yes, three men and a baby is one of them. Okay, good. Is three men and a little lady the other movie? No. All right. Now does this count as two strikes? Now can I give you... Yes, it does. It does. Okay. I'm going to give you the first year of the television series, which is 1998.

It's got to be Becker. What's that? it's got to be becker it is becker and then the other movie is 1981 oh damn that's is that even before cheers or is that like early cheers it's the year before cheers you've got to be kidding me um he is not a thing at this point like this is if not his first it's not his first it might be his first movie actually he had done a bunch of

smaller TV stuff, but it might be his first movie. Wow, I genuinely... He's not the lead in it, I'll say that. Sure. And we talked about this movie last week. Oh. What did we talk about last week? That was 40 years old.

Okay, obviously it's not a movie with L. Fanning. I want to see how far down the billing he is in this movie. Fourth billed. It's last week when we talked about, like, the outsiders? Not really. We didn't really get into the Francis Ford Coppola movies too much last week. I think I mentioned Peggy Sue got married, but it is not Peggy Sue got married. And my challenge was Kathleen Turner.

Is it a Kathleen Turner movie? Maybe. Maybe meaning yes. What was the early 80s? It's not romancing the stone. That's like 87. I think it's 86, but yeah. Something like that.

Yeah. I don't think it's that much earlier, but is it like... It's not Prizzi's honor. Nope. Obviously not War of the Roses. It's not Peggy Sue got it. married. Nope.

Is it body heat? It's body heat. Body heat. Kathleen Turner drags William Hurt by the dick in that movie. She does. I will never let it die. It's amazing. Ted Danson is a, I want to say, like, he's a colleague of William Hurtz or something

like that, or he's like a shifty attorney or something like that. Yeah. Don't remember him in that movie. I just remember how hot that movie is. It's super hot. Kathleen Turner's amazing in that movie. Yep. Absolutely amazing.

Well done. That was a difficult one. I was like, should I give this one to him? I thought Becker would give you a harder time. But I guess once you get that year. But there's like so many other shows for Ted Danson. Yeah, it's kind of crazy that that's one. But also, it went for so long and it was a big old success. Like, I guess I'm not super surprised that it's that and not like damages or, you know, any number of other things. Hooray. Bored to death. I love Bored to Death so much. Anyway. Well, before this tornado whisks us off to Mexico, I think that's our episode. If you want more of this at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you and your stuff? You can find me on the unrealistically long road from Dallas to Mexico.

You can also find me on Twitter at Joe Reed, read-a-spelled R-E-I-D. You can find me on letterboxed, read-spelled the exact same way. I am on Twitter at Krispy File. That's F-E-I-L, also on Letterbox, under the same name. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork

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Thank you.