This Had Oscar Buzz - 110 – The Meyerowitz Stories (New and Selected)

Episode Date: September 7, 2020

Netflix and the Academy have had a rapidly evolving relationship in the past several years. This week, we look at the short trajectory from demonstrative shutout for Beasts of No Nation to a potential domination this season with a discussion of their 2017 awards also-ran The Meyerowitz Stories (New and Selected). The less heralded and less seen of … Continue reading "110 – The Meyerowitz Stories (New and Selected)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada, Water. His name was Byron, but you called him Myron. Three times you called him Myron

Till you heard the other guy, say it with a B. Byron, Myron, Byron, Myron. What doesn't matter if you look him in the eye? Say it with confidence and look him in the eye. me eye, don't check up your shoes, don't look at the sky, stay in with confidence, and look at him in my eyes. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast manifesting its relationship problems through a game of Candyland.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my parenthetically, not new, but always selected, Joe Reed. Hello, Chris. Hi. This podcast is going to be a hard R. I love that line reading so much. She has so, like, not to, like, get us right off the bat on probably what will be our most fervently held opinion, but, like, Elizabeth Marvel has so many fantastic lied readings in this movie. It's just, it's phenomenal.

Should have been on everybody's supporting actress ballot. Yeah. Definitely on mine. She's so good. Here's the thing, like, I know that we are both in very staunch agreement about this movie. Re-watching it again, I think this is probably the fourth of the time I've seen this movie. This, like, it is Noah Bond Black's best screenplay in that, like, this.

This is my fifth time watching it, and there was a ton of lines that I had never caught before that had me off my ass laughing. Oh, it's incredibly funny, and in that very, like, Noah Baumbach way, where it's all very, like, dependent on these small moments of timing or him sort of, like, trusting his cast to, like, have the exact right reaction shot. Like, it's all, like, it's a fantastic screenplay, yes, but it's also, like, really well-directed comedy in that, like, a lot of the laughs are really. about just, like, timing and, and visual and that kind of thing. A good 50% of the jokes in this movie are completely thrown away. Yes. And, like, you won't even catch them until you've watched the movie again. And they don't even feel necessarily, like, jokes because they don't feel, like, punchlines.

But, like, it's just, like, it's, uh, it's Danny being, like, the Misanen in your movie was really great, too, Gene, like, that kind of thing about just, it's all these, like, small, little, I don't know just really like lived in moments of just it takes you a second to register that it was this really funny moment but oh my god it's every single time um what a different character will do the you should see the other dog joke and every single time it just gets funnier because of how much like more expectation they have that it's going to be this funny joke and it just never lands it's so funny. I think also on top of like this is a movie that gets funnier and funnier. when you watch it. I think the emotional, like, well of this movie gets richer and richer each time that I watch it, and I'm more and more moved. Well, we'll definitely get into my sort of grand theory of Noah Bomback, because, like, the more movies he makes, the more sort of, like, I, like, just add another layer, outer layer to my grand sculpture of just sort of my take on Noah Bomback, which is probably halfway

bullshit, but whatever, like, it's mine and I enjoy it. Yeah, it's a very... It's the kind of movie he couldn't have made until this very point in his career, I think, is basically what I would say about it is that... Because it would have been too far pushed

in one direction or another, like it would have been too scabrous if it was earlier or too whimsical if it was earlier or, like, I would say maybe a little too saccharin, if it was post-marriage story. I don't want to shit on marriage story this episode, but this is the movie that I wish got

the level of respect and attention that marriage story got, which is a movie I like. I really love Marriage Story. But I feel like Marowitz stories, to me, is interesting, and I'm sort of interested that nobody else really seemed to have this take, is that like, it's a combination of a lot of different angles and obsessions that Baumack has had throughout his career. So many of his movies have some degree of autobiography or another to it. He, in his own life, grew up in Park Slope. His parents were both writers. His mother was a film critic, I believe, were some sort of critic for The Village Voice. And his father was a writer and a professor and this whole kind of thing.

And then, of course, his parents' divorce was famously the inspiration for the squid and the whale. And then sort of throughout his career, kicking and screaming, there's a lot of sort of like postgraduate enwee that seems to have a lot of sort of lived in observations and experienced from him. And then as his career goes along, and then the Greta Gerwig collaborations happen. And I genuinely do feel like those movies bring a generosity. And I don't want to say a softness to him, but kind of a more sort of, I mean, generous is the word I'm just going to go with. Generous view towards his characters that, like, a movie like Margot at the wedding, feels so sharp and acidic and not necessarily bad because that's a, you know, that's a very good movie. But I think you look at it's a hostile movie about hostile people. Margaret the Wedding is hostile.

Greenberg is hostile. There's a lot of the squid in the whale that is hostile. Like those are very tart movies. And I think the collaborations with Greta Gerwig, there is a more sort of compassionate, humanist feel to those movies that I think absolutely manifests itself in the Myruth stories. I think of that the Maureen character, who is, you know, portrait. trade as, you know, she's a drunk, she's not really trustworthy in terms of, you know, the kids really don't trust that she has the best interests of their father at heart, like this whole kind of thing. She's very much sort of the consummate outsider in the family. But like this

movie definitely has moments of real compassion for her and it doesn't hang her out to dry in a way that I feel like maybe earlier Noah Baumbach movies would have, or at least would have, like, made her more of a contemptible character or more of the butt of a joke. Yeah, I feel like the final note with that character specifically is a surprising one because it's after Ben Stiller's character reverts the plan to sell off all the father's art. And she's like, oh, well, I guess I was surprised by your decision, but it's fine. And, like, previously you thought that she was just being so flippant.

selfish and only seeing it from her part but really what you kind of learn from her is that she's like easily swayed if you give her the tiniest bit of pushback you know and it's not a big deal there's also the moment earl before that where she's talking to matthew talking to the ben stiller character about danny and jean and about how you know there's such disappointments and she sort of takes a beat and she says i say this as a disappointment myself you know what i mean like there's There's just like there's a roundness to that character that I don't think, you know, isn't, isn't required, but I'm very, very happy that it is because that's, it's my most kind of cherished thing about a movie is when it can be very generous to its, you know, nominal antagonists. So, yeah, I really love this movie and I'm glad we're going to get to talk about it. it's obviously one of the more recent movies we've talked about.

And as a result, we haven't really had a ton of chance to talk about Netflix. So that'll be also an interesting thing to get into. Especially, I think, to talk about Bomback and Netflix is really interesting in relationship to this movie. Yep, yep, totally. It's very much the Netflix evolution is very, like, this comes at a very interesting point in the Netflix evolution, because it's sort of a, it's the dip before the rise. kind of that uh that and obviously i was at the time working for a publication that was very very much focused on streaming platforms so i was sort of like right in the thick of uh netflix this

year and it was it was interesting sort of like tracking it tracking it along but we'll definitely talk about that for sure yeah the myerwitt stories new and selected new and selected It's so funny when you did our little Twitter tease for this, and it was a rack of books, aka stories, that were new arrivals. For a second, I was just like, what does that have to do? And then you reminded me that new and selected.

New and selected. Obviously, we shorth, we shorth, with Just the Meyer with stories. But I also think, because at least at this point, no one's guessed it, I also just think it speaks to, like, what my particular soapbox will be about. this movie is that I don't think people saw it.

I don't think people watched this movie, which is interesting that it is also a Netflix movie, and Netflix is, you know, ubiquitous. Every movie that we have has been watched by 42 million people, which I don't think they touted out for this movie. They didn't do... Weirdly, they did. Here's the thing. We'll get into the can of it all.

We'll get, like, all of that. But, like, my ax to grind about this movie is that people haven't seen it. It is one of those Netflix movies that got caught adjacent to another Netflix movie that they wanted to push even more, which in this case, 2017, they had sort of, they were still kind of licking their wounds from the Beasts of No Nation thing. Which is a movie we could do an episode on, but it's going to be more of a bummer than this one would be. So we kind of jumped on this one first. Right, for sure. even though the fact that they brought both Okja and Myrit's stories to Cannes, which we'll talk about for sure, because that was a whole fucking Tempest in a teapot there. But late 2017, Netflix was really focused on the idea that they could have a blockbuster, and so they were really pushing that movie Bright really hard.

And I remember that being like the thing for them, where they weren't really, they had sort of given up the ghost on Oscar for the year, and which would really rebound. the next year, obviously, with Roma. But... And probably one of their... Maybe this and, like, Meyerowitz got about the same effort, but first they killed my father, the... First they killed my father, the Angelina Jolie movie.

But ultimately, that doesn't get a whole ton of push either. I think they had sort of, like, dipped their toes into a few, like, possible, you know, critical faves. I think they maybe tested the, you know, their finger up to the wind on that one, saw that it wasn't really an enthusiastic charge from the critics for any of those. And so they really seemed to, from my experience, put all of their eggs into the basket of trying to make bright a, you know, full-on, big budget blockbuster

that Netflix is going to be able to do the big, you know, bombastic movie thing that all the studios are going to be able to do. And that ultimately, I mean, they'll tell you that was a success. They will tell you that everybody was watching Bright that December and whatever. And, but like culturally, Bright did not make an impression. Certainly not even the kind of impression that they would get the next year with Birdbox, which was... Yeah, Birdbox has definitely had a more enduring thing. But I think some of that has to do with, like, Bright was like critically loathed. And even from just like the average Netflix consumer, like, what you you see as not people who were like, that was

a good movie, you know, it was just everybody watched it. Well, right, but, and also, like, by that token, there are a lot of summer blockbusters that are critically loathed that still become sort of sticky in the cultural consciousness, and Bright did not do that. Like, there's, like, you

you know, you won't hear people, you know, talking about Bright today. Like, the way they even will, like, Transformers, or like the dumbest Michael Bay movies, or you know, whatever. Bad Boys 3, like anything like that, no. It's just, it's been largely forgotten except for to sort of like speak about derisively in terms of, you know, Netflix missing the boat. But.

Yeah. Ultimately, like, and we can get into this. Like, I don't know if the Meyerowitz story's not catching on like it might have been, you know, in early predictions. I don't know if that's a Failure on Netflix's part, I think it's quite possibly more of failure on the critics part because, like, critics let this movie kind of go away. And they were, like, for this to make a success with Oscar, critics would have had to have given this more attention and championed it more on the level that they did with marriage story. Critics, I remember being sort of frustrated that more critics didn't love it, though. Like, I think a lot of critics really liked it. I think you'll see that in the disparity between the Rotten Tomato score and the Metacritic score. Not that either one of those is, like, you know, definition. But I think a lot of people sort of, like, gave it a thumbs up but weren't enthusiastic about it.

And I was sort of frustrated that more people weren't, like, over the moon about it like I was. because I just, like, fell in love when I saw this movie. And I think there were a lot of people sort of, I think, also coming off of the two collaborations with Greta Gerwig, which, like, we forget, like, Mistress America had its detractors, too. Like, they're, you know, were at least a good handful of people who found Mistress America too self-indulgent or abrasive. It took me a second watch to like Mistress America, and now it's one of my favorite movies. It's so fantastic. but I think a lot of people after he made the Greta Gerwig movies and then went back to making this on his own kind of were sort of in my mind kind of nitpicking the Noah Bombach myopia sort of the sort of like very narrow lane to which he casts his expertise which like I get it but also like what are we what are you going to

Noah Baumbach movies for. He makes a, you know, a movie within a very sort of specific kind of sphere. But I think he does so in a way that gets to more universal observations about family and about, like, you don't have to have grown up in a sort of hyper-intellectual, artistic, upper Westside townhouse kind of a family to get what, to get to the truths, to recognize. recognize the truth that he's getting at to in the scenes where, for example, it's the adult siblings in the hospital trying to deal with what the doctors are all telling them about their father, or to deal with, you know, the way that, you know, siblings in a family of divorce, of multiple divorces, might have very sort of, like, awkward to hostile relationship to each other. Highly relatable.

Like, he just, he's just very, very. very good at that kind of thing. And I don't, and I feel like if your main criticism of Noah Bombeck is that he only makes movies about Park Slope, artsy-fartsy people, that like you're, you're missing what I would say is the best part of what his movies are. I mean, as someone who's like, all of their siblings do not share the exact same parents as I do. Like, I don't know if I've seen another movie kind of articulate the, like, odd ways that kind of manifests in how you navigate your adult relationship with those siblings. I've never really seen that articulated, certainly as well as this movie does. Just the little things of like, Danny feeling a certain kind of way that Matthew and his daughter like communicate over email and he doesn't, or over text and he doesn't really know about it, or the way that going back to like Elizabeth Marvel's perfect line readings in this movie, At one point, she just sort of, they're in the hospital, and she just sort of turns to Ben Stiller, and she goes, it's really nice to see you, Matthew, in this very kind of hopeful, but slightly stilted way, where there's still a little bit of, like, weird, there's a wall between them.

Or not even just past tensions, but past, like, estrangements, where it's just like, you can tell that Gene really likes Matthew. She has nothing against Matthew. It's just that the circumstances of their lives have kept them at an arm's length. through no fault of either one of them. It's really, really interesting. I love it. All right. I'm excited.

Anyway, let's get into the 60-second plot description, and we can keep talking more about this movie that we like, and we can talk about Oscar, we can talk about K.N., blah, blah, blah, blah, all of it. We are here to talk about the Meyerowitz stories, due and selected, directed, and written by Noah Bomback, starring Ben Stiller, Adam Sandler, Dustin Hoffman, Emma Thompson, Elizabeth Marvell, Grace Van Patton, Judge Hurst, and as herself, Sigourney Weaver.

Sigourney Weaver. Put a pin in that. I definitely, at the other end of the plot description, I want to mention Sigourney Weaver. She enters the movie saying, hi, I'm Sigourney. She sure does. Yes. My epitaph. We'll get into it.

Plus, the movie stars, like, all of the Bomback Bit players. I'm pretty sure the entire ensemble that is not. the two leads of Mistress America shows up in this movie. To the point where my beloved Karen from Mistress America is like one of the nurses who like doesn't even speak. Like she's in that one. It's my major qualm with this movie. Let her speak.

She should have had a speaking role. She's incredible. I love her. Yeah. A non-bearded Michael Chernis. Yes. He's always adorable. I love Michael Chernice.

Also, once again, it took me forever to recognize Mickey Sumner in this movie where the first time I saw it, I was like, who was the blonde who was making eyes? with Ben Stiller at Bard, and it's just like, oh, right, it's Sophie from Francis Ha, it's Mickey Sumner, it's, you know, daughter of Sting. Adam Sandler's, like, key potential love interest in this movie is Rebecca Miller. Yep, exactly. Gail Rankin, so perfect on glow and in her smell. Yep.

It's like the nurse who they have the one good day with, and then she gets reassigned, and they latch on. God, Pam so bad in this movie. That is incredibly relatable. Sikina Joffrey, as the doctor. who's going on vacation for three weeks, which what a fantastic scene that is. Amazing. But The Meyerwood Stories New and Selected premiered in competition at Cannes.

We will get into it. It also played New York Film Festival and then debuted on Netflix October 13th of 2017. First Netflix movie. Yes. We'll get into the Netflix of it. I've observed as we do these podcast episodes. over the weeks and weeks, that if we ever do merch, which I don't know if we're ever going to do merch, but if we ever do, I feel like we should have a t-shirt that just says we'll get

into it, because I feel like that's sort of, we're always sort of promising that, you know, don't worry, all these things that we're touching on in the great- I get really paranoid that we'll forget to get into it, and people will yell at us that we didn't get into it. Me too. You promised to get into it. If we ever promise to get into it and we don't get into it, yell at us on Twitter, about not getting into it and we want to get into it. We intend. We'll do it. We'll do it. We'll get it. Maybe we'll do a bonus episode something. Um, but Joseph, yes. You are tasked this week with the 60 second plot description of the Meyerowitz stories new and selected. Please put all of your adjectives in parenthetical while doing this. It's a lot of adjectives. I will say that. I will probably get tripped up as is my want, but we'll see. What, uh, what a two parenthetical adjectives would you describe yourself as? Oh, God.

Are you selected? I am neither new or selected at this point. I would say... I'm neither new, fresh, ripe... I am tired and anxious. Oh, okay. That's a good one. I could also be tired and anxious.

I'm usually like hungry and whatever. Chris File, parenthetical, hungry and whatever. I love it. hungry and under-caffeinated. Yeah, right. Joseph, we've stalled too long. Are you ready for the 60-second plot description? Sure, we'll see how far I get before I get cut up.

All right, if you are ready, your 60-second plot description for the Meyerowitz stories, new and selected, starts now. All right, Danny Meyerowitz is a recently divorced father of 18-year-old Eliza, who's heading off to college to study filmmaking. Danny's at odds and ends, so he goes to live with his father, Harold, a sculptor who was never the success he thought he should have been, and who's constantly judging the artistic and intellectual married of his peers and family. Harold's third wife, Maureen, is usually drunk and wants to sell their Upper West Side Townhouse to go live in the Berkshires. There's also Danny's sister, Jean, who is quiet and awesome. Their brother, Matthew, from Harold's second marriage, lives in California and is a financier, the family's only real success.

Harold neglected Danny and Jean in their childhood, leading to many lingering resentments and awkwardness within the family, which are exacerbated when Harold has a long-delayed reaction to a fall and is hospitalized and comatose with a brain bleed. His kids have to deal with the hospital nightmare together, leading eventually. lead to Danny and Matthew brawling on the grounds of Bard College, and Gene telling them about being sexually menaced as a child by one of Harold's friends. They beat down his car, and it's very cathartic and awesome. In the end, Harold survives, and he goes to live in the Berkshires with Maureen, and Danny finally stands up to him and smashes a plate of cookies and goes to California to live with Matthew for a little bit and try his life.

I made it. Yeah, you pretty much made it. I didn't get into Eliza's film career. Yeah. But, you know, Gene gets a haircut. It's not necessarily about, like, what happens. It's kind of the process the characters go through together and separately. Exactly. It's a wonderful.

Yeah. So, when we did our last Meryl Streep episode, which was Prime a few weeks ago, I mentioned that Meryl Streep had entered our prestigious Six-Timers Club, which we have decided at that moment is going to be a thing now. So, recently, as of our episode, last week, Alice and Janney entered our five-timers club, which is sort of our holding room. It's not really a club. It's just a little waiting room on the way to six. She requested approval to enter the Zoom room.

Right. So Alice and Janney is on the cusp at this point. We would let her in the Zoom room the next time she's in a movie. Exactly. With this movie, Sigourney Weaver bumps up her tally to five now. So we are at critical watch stage for Sigourney Weaver. The next time we do a Sigourney movie, she will be a six-timer. We have done previously, can you think of them off the top of your head, Chris?

What are our other sigorns? Seagornay has been in the Ice Storm. Yes. Oh, boy, I have a feeling some of these are older that we've done. Yeah, she was in our sixth episode, our 21st. Oh, 1492, Conquest for Paradise. Yes, very good. Conquest of Paradise.

God damn it. I'll never remember. It was in 1492. It's a long time ago. It's fine. We should have made that a joke during that episode, but it was early, and we hadn't established our humor. It could have been Conquest the Paradise, Conquest and Paradise. Right, different prepositions the whole way. Yes. Conquest, comma, a paradise. Okay, 1492, Ice Storm. This, so I only have two more movies to guess. Correct.

Listeners are probably screaming. I don't know if either one of these two are, like, our most memorable, but we'll see. Our 21st episode and our 85th episode, if that helps you. 21st, wow, so that's further back. One very low budget, one very high budget. Well, we haven't done imaginary heroes. No, we could. We have to, you know.

Wait, was the 21st Tadpole? Yes, Tadpole. Our great digital video monstrosity, Tadpole. Yeah, the very aesthetically appealing Tadpole. Okay, so there's one more. That episode, we also spent more time talking about B.B. Newworth, so... We definitely did. The one you're missing...

I can't get this. The one you're missing is from the same director as one of the other four. Oh, it's another Ridley Scott movie, probably. Yes. Duh, it is Exodus and Kings. Yes, it's Exodus and Kings. Yes. Exodus and Genesis.

Yes. Exodus and Genesis Save the World Yes The day after tomorrow colon Moses Right Sigourney Weaver

In her incredibly rich And rewarding role In Exodus Gods and Kings Like truly Which she looks askance Four times And that's her You know

Part of that she also does That's also her role in 1492 So clearly like Sigourney seems to feel like She owes Ridley Scott Something for Alien And I'm just here to tell her Lady you do not

You no longer owe him a thing. I mean, we maybe owe Sigourney Weaver an apology, because with the Ice Storm excluded, this is probably the most we've talked about her because she just shows up this movie iconically and says, hi, I'm Sigourney. Hi, I'm Sigourney, and then, like, and then Harold dines out on that little greeting, like, at least twice. I met Sigourney Weaver. She said, hi, I'm Sigourney. I said, hi, I'm Harold. All right. Let's get the Dustin Hoffman out of the way early because they know part of the reason why this movie was buried as accusations against him came out in the year of this movie. Around the same time. Or was it a year before? I feel like I think it's sort of, the timeline of it is a little murky to me. I know there was that Merrill Streep story about.

Yeah, because he's always been a bastard and he's always been a bad guy, especially when you hear the stories about Kramer versus Kramer and how he treated Merrill Streep on that set for, you know, the sake of acting. right right but he was sort of this person that we had sort of made our piece with being you know an asshole but a very good actor which i do think it is you know remains true i think since then and since i think it was right around this time but i also feel like this movie was already kind of out of the conversation by then anyway so it's not like dustin hoffman was like barreling his way towards a supporting actor nomination and then that all like

happened. I feel like part of the sort of ongoing, unfolding sort of Me Too wave were these stories about accusations against Dustin Hoffman for, I don't know the specific, so I'm not going to delve into it. I don't want to, you know, be inaccurate about that, but there was some, you know, some bad stuff thrown his way. So we don't want to sort of, you know, revere him, but like, you got to talk about him. And frankly, he's fantastic in this movie. is the thing. His performance is incredibly... Well, everyone's fantastic in this movie. It's... Yes.

Yes, that is true. But specifically him, I think he gets to this this moment with Harold where you get exactly the kind of like petty sort of like he lives his life one

petty grievance at a time kind of a thing. And he's sort of like just eternally kind of mumbling and kind of sort of going over these little, I said in my 60 second, he's sort of always evaluating and judging the artistic and intellectual merits of everything. Everything they talk about, it's, you know, such and such has, you know, a talent but no real insight and all these kind of like very sort of like critical evaluations

of like his granddaughter or what Matthew does in his career as a financier or what Danny could have been as a musician and yada yada and it's all very um every little bit of it is another little piece of the puzzle of like what he must have been like as a father in terms of you know working on even despite like the casualness of the delivery like everything he seems to say is like fatal like it's non-recoverable it like is definitive and it reveals also like his own deficiencies, too. It also reveals how kind of the inferiority complex he's sort of like constantly living in all the time. And yet also, it's also these like very little funny moments where he'll just, you know, mention like, you know, we got the good cable package. We got,

you know, we can watch the Mets or whatever. And just the way he tries to change the subject from things or the ways he'll like sort of, you know, toss off something about like what Maureen did earlier in that day. And it's, you can get the frustration of trying to, you know, if you're Danny, trying to sort of reckon with this neglectful, emotionally sort of scarring childhood when this father won't have any conversation that doesn't immediately stray into either ephemera or, you know, him talking about how L.J. at Bard is, you know, got a retrospective he didn't or something like that. And this is why I'm not having children.

Yeah. Because that's the impact I fear giving someone else. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a movie that sort of, again, it's building blocks. It adds a little bit of information here or there. And by the end, you get this really sort of rich portrait of these children who were either explicitly neglected by Harold, which we, you know, that's Danny. and Gene. Or, like, Matthew got his father's attentions, but doesn't seem all the better for

it, you know? Right, because, well, I mean, he basically says it explicitly to them. It's like, you got ignored and you had to deal with that and seeking a certain approval that way, but because I wasn't ignored, I got more direct impact and damage. Right, right. And then you get the scene with Candice Bergen, who plays Ben Stiller's mother in the film. And you get a little bit more of, like, what that relationship was. And then she has this moment where she kind of apologizes to Harold, but really it's an apology that she wants to send to Danny and Jean for not being a good stepmother to them and sort of for participating in that, you know, neglect. Having hesitancy about if it was her place or not. Right.

She was still, yeah, they were still at odds and ends with Danny and Jean's mother. and that, obviously, divorce seems to have gone very ecromaniously. But you get these moments where, you know, when Jean ultimately tells her story about what happened to her when she visited her father at Martha's Vineyard and sort of being peeped upon and then that friend of Harold's was, you know, like jerking off in front of her or whatever, which is, you know, horribly traumatic story that she tells very matter of factly. And, but part of that is she didn't want to tell Matthew's mother because she thought Matthew's mother would be mad at her because that's sort of the relationship that they had. And when we see Candace Bergen in the present timeline, she seems like a wonderfully, you know, nice and sweet and, you know, regular person. And she feels this, you know, genuine regret. And so it's all, again, this very sort of humane treatment of these characters where, like, it doesn't hold back from saying, Harold was and is a shit father. And yet, all of these little pieces of this family feel very much like, nobody's, like, Candace Bergen wasn't a wicked stepmother. She was just somebody who was dealing with a, you know, complicated emotional terrain herself. Possibly also following the lead of her husband, who was a shitty father. Right. And so all of these things sort of like build

and you get that moment with Gene when they're in the car after Danny and Matthew have beat the shit out of this guy's car for some sort of catharsis. And they're like, Gene, isn't it great? And she's just like, no amount of damage you do to that car is going to unfuck up my life. And she again says it incredibly matter of factly. Like Gene never really has this like big emotional, you know, blowout, even though she obviously could. But you see that like all these different like little, you know, moments and building blocks in this family's life have put these three adult children in these very peculiar and interesting places in their lives where you know and you could with a broad brush sort of call them all in some way or another failures or you know messes and i think a lesser movie specifically with the gene character a lesser movie would kind of lump her damage together with Danny's and like never really show like never have that moments where like she does actually get to take control of the story and you do get to hear like what happened to her in childhood and you get to hear her say you dumb idiots will never understand what it's like to be me right in this family right that she and danny right she and danny are under the same umbrella of neglect from Harold and yet their experiences are all very individual and very like specific and the other thing, though, is sticking with the Gene character, but I think it applies to most of the characters in this movie, is Gene's not a pitiable character. There are bad things that

happen to Gene, and you sort of wish that things were better for Gene. But, like, she is funny. She's incredibly sweet. She has, like, a great relationship with Danny and with Eliza and with, you know, even, you know, as stilted as it is with Matthew. And she, you know, she has, seems to have fun with her co-workers at the office, and she is in, you know, by the end of this movie, she's in these student films that Eliza is making,

and she's, you know, doing the best that she can, and it's not like, you know, that I love that. She's probably the most well-balanced of all of these people and the one who's actually, like, processed and dealt with her shit. Yeah. But the movie doesn't equate that with her being

uninteresting. The way the movie introduces her is so funny. to me, where Danny's, there's this whole hullabaloo, first of all, Danny and Eliza trying to find a parking spot, and then up the stairs into the townhouse where Harold's got eight billion things, you know, he fell with

walking the dog, and Maureen's making shark for dinner, and this and this and that. And finally, after like seven minutes of sort of this, you know, very active back and forth between all the characters, Danny sort of like enters the other room, and Gene's been sitting there in a chair up against the wall the whole time.

Just sort of very quiet. silent and it's just like I knew that he'd want to say hello to you in his own time so I waited and it's just so funny in this like incredibly understated way it's you brought it up so we got to talk about the shark stew the shark stew that has like clams and muscles in it that even though this is a stew and presumably was cooked on a pot on a stove they haven't opened it looks like rocks with some very like ugly meat in a broth. You can see the bacteria sort of like floating, re-floating in the thing. There's one point, it's a very small moment, because they're in the middle of talking about

a thing, where Sandler takes a bite of it and then like immediately like rips the food out of his mouth before he can even like take it off of the fork. It's so like he just like the revulsion of it and all the scenes of like Eliza sort of like giving the whole bowl of it a side eye. to an extent everything about the Maureen character is the broadest thing that the movie really does and like Emma Thompson is doing a bit and I understand anybody's perspective on this performance whether they think she's terrible whether she's too much it's too broad or if they think she's genius but there's something about this like very self-absorbed alcoholic vaguely an artist because she wears like a wooden bead necklace. vaguely bohemian. Yeah. Like that woman, that we all know who that woman is, we've experienced that woman,

that it's like, you almost need someone who is playing very much not themselves and doing like this kind of sketchy bit to like get at the truth of who that person is. Like it has to be almost a little not believable for it to be accurate. But at the same time, I don't know. It can be a little too broad for what the rest of the movie is doing. There's a moment that I caught in this that I don't think I had caught before or I had possibly forgotten, although I can't imagine how I could have, where she's describing to Danny the people who came by looking to purchase the townhouse and also Harold's art. And she described the one as baby-faced yet sinewy, like an old lover of mine, Willem Defoe. and she tosses this off so, so quickly that, like, you totally almost miss it because, like, other things are going on.

But it's just perfect. It kind of sums up, you know, her character that either she is an old lover of Willem Defoe or she just says it, even though it's maybe not true. And, like, either one is equally plausible. Absolutely plausible that she could have either had an extended relationship with Willam DeFoe or, like, made out with him at a bar one time. and now he is an old lover in her mind. Also, describing him as baby-faced get sinewy is both correct and not correct at the same time. And, like, it's so good. Oh, my God.

What a great. All right, I want to sort of shift for a second into Stiller and Sandler, who are two actors who, like, knowing us, like, we have our faves and we have our, you know, pet obsessions and our pet, you know, things that we gravitate towards. And I would think it's safe to say that neither Ben Stiller nor Adam Sandler fall under those umbrellas for us. Yes, we can say that safely? Yes, but I think we can also safely say that this is, I'm going to guess, like, we're both going to be real fans of their work here. Yeah, I think they're both fantastic in this movie. I feel like we brought this up in our men, women, and children episode, but like, this should be Sandler's Oscar nomination. All of the uncut gem stands out there, like, I get it.

I think he's great. He would have been on my ballot last year, but, like, this is his best performance. All of the enthusiasm that people had for Adam Sandler last year, I wish they had had for him in Myerwood's stories. I think he's so much. It's such a – first of all, Bomback really cleverly funnels both Sandler and Stiller and both of the fact that both of those actors have attended. in their movies towards frustration and kind of blowups

and he really like he harnesses that from Sandler right away in that parking scene where they're trying to find a parking spot but like also at other points in the movie and like Stiller is you know his frustration builds up in kind of a different way but then he also

has the big blow up at his father and then later when the two of them are fighting on the lawn at Bard I also think Bomback though, with these two actors who are prone to, like, blow up for laughs in their other movies, Bomback, I think, has a really good sense of where the ceiling for that can be and have it still be really funny, really informative of the character, and, like, a natural response this character would have to the situation.

And it doesn't... That, like, kind of harnesses what is good about those performers in a way that, like, I don't think every movie they're in does. And it never gets to the point where those moments obscure what's going on with those characters and, like, the very real kind of emotions that they're going through. I think Sandler gets across a real sadness, like, the kind of which, like, you know, Punch Drunk Love is a really great performance for him, too. And it's been so long since I've seen it that I don't want to, like, make any statements. about it definitively. But like, I don't even think in that movie gets to the kind of, you know, genuine sadness that his character has in this movie and that he doesn't know what to do with it.

Like, he clearly has resentments for his upbringing and he has these sort of moments where he gets really, like, worked up about them selling the townhouse, even though he only ever lived in that townhouse for one year of his life. Um, whereas that was where Matthew, had grown up. And so he's not even sure why he's getting so upset about it. And later, you know, Matthew is trying to be like, why aren't you more angry at Dad? Why are you always the one who shows up for him? Matthew also asked that of Gene in the woods at that one point, which I think is a great moment where he's just like, why do you always show up for him? And I think Sandler's performance has that kind of, you know, sad confusion of just like, I don't

even know why. Yeah, because it's a, it's a misunderstanding of both of them, because Danny is angry at their father and Elizabeth Marvell is the one who Jean can answer it with like truly I'm just a decent person that's what decent people do and like she believes that And then Danny

Sorry for No I was going to say for Sandler And uh because you're talking about like the sadness that he He has that feels like You know real and developed in this movie that informs the movie I think the same is true for Ben Stiller It's weird like they're not actors that ever really

move, like genuinely move me and I think they're both like really moving in this movie. There's a moment in there, as they're building up to their fight at Bard, where Danny sort of because the fight starts when Danny gets

again upset for reasons that I think he's not even sure about when Grace won't listen to him about not drinking wine and beer in the afternoon, which is like a very sort like parental thing to do. And Matthew sort of like butts in. It's just like she's

18. Just let her do what she wants. And after he sort of blows up at Eliza and did I say Grace, Grace is the actress's name. It's Eliza. Yeah, Grace Van Patten. After Danny sort of blows up at her and she goes away and he's arguing about it with Matt and he just says, I have a really

good thing going with Eliza. I have a really good, you know, he's saying I have a, you know, this father-daughter relationship we have. is essentially the one success of his life. He's never had a real job. He's never had a career and a stay-at-home dad. And the one real success of his life is he's raised to this really great daughter and they have a really great close relationship to each other. And he's so, he gets so frustrated that Matthew sort of, you know, butts in on that. And he wants at least

somebody to give him credit for that, I think. And it's, again, such a plaintive moment for him, but, like, it's articulated really well in the script and in the performance. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. He's so good. I also think there's something about Sandler's performance in this movie, and, like, the same isn't true for Ben Stiller,

and, like, that's in the design of the script. But, like, there is something about Adam Sandler's presence in this movie that's very warm that, like, is a, necessary element to this movie like we were talking about like where it hits Bomback in his career where it's like all of the notes of his movies seem

to be coming together in a really rich way and I think some of the like warmth of this movie that feels genuine and not overforced comes from Sandler's performance. There are moments where like the famous blueberry pancakes and then he does the little

like Al Jolson hand motion or whatever. And where you can tell, it's, again, it's this small little moment that communicates a lot that clearly, for a character who doesn't have a whole lot of great childhood memories of his father, that, like, clearly this seems to be, like, a thing that they had, where, like, Harold would make the famous blueberry pancakes and they'd, like, make a thing of it. And I think that's also present in the Myron Byron scene, right? Where Sandler, who, you've find out through this movie, had a musical talent that he ultimately chose not to pursue, partially because you get the sense, partially because almost as in defiance of his father,

and who clearly, like, wanted all of his children to pursue careers in arts and things like that. But you get these couple scenes where he's playing piano, and the one, the first one, comes very early on the movie, is he and Eliza have this duet on this beautiful little song called Genius Girl. I'll always be good at math. I'll always be good at name and stars. Always be there to catch me. Except when I fall off the monkey bars. I still hate myself.

That broken arm made you so sad. There when you shot at the empty end. That black and white cookie made it not so bad. And there's always you, and there's always me, and there's always eyes. Mommy and daddy and genius girl make three. That like, not only is it like a really pretty slash like bittersweet song, especially in the context of that, he's now divorced from her mom and a lot of, you know, the crux of the song is mommy and daddy

and genius girl make three, but also that he and Eliza harmonize in the, you know, in the performance. And clearly, like, you get, again, just it communicates the years and years that they have had this as one of the things that, like, bond them together, that, like, they've done this so many times they've gotten the harmony sort of, like, down pat. And it communicates a ton about their relationship in this very, sweet um and like just a huge sense of history yeah i think it does in just that one scene in really graceful unforced ways um a lot of things that marriage story is trying to do um and is just like not as impactful for me as a viewer because it feels so uh labored sometimes and like he does

all of that in a single scene i can see that i you know again i think marriage story fundamentally worked a little bit better for me than for you. Elements of it worked very, very well for me. Yeah, I see it. I can't get all the way there, the way other people are. But the genius girl scene, and then, as I was saying, sort of Myron Byron communicates the same kind of thing, but about his relationship with Harold,

where it's a very funny little ditty about how his father is such a fucking narcissist that he didn't even get the name of this person right like the first several times. He referred to him. He kept calling him Myron and his name was really Byron. And then Danny sort of like made this funny song about it. But again, the two of them sort of sing it together

with Harold totally unabashed that it's the song about you know, what a jerk he is. And then again, it gets repriezed later when Harold's in a coma and the three siblings are at home and then they are also sort of like singing it together and like this very

kind of harmonious thing and then Elizabeth Marvel has the big sort of like note at the end. Jazz hands. Yeah and she does the jazz hands and it's it communicates a ton about what this family is like that like in their best moments they really you know

it's really something special between them. And in a small way Mayer and Byron was keeping the movie somewhat in the Oscar race because it made the original song a bake-off list. It did. So let's talk about that. Genius Girl stupidly did not. I love both of those songs,

and I think in a perfect world, either one of them would have made a great Oscar nomination. I think Genius Girl is probably the better of the two, and certainly the more emotionally resonant of the two, which makes it kind of bizarre. And it would have made so much more sense to watch on an Oscar telecast. Right. Well, and also just, like, it makes more sense if you're trying to, like, lure in voters who don't know anything about the movie and are maybe only watching the clip of it with the song or maybe even only listening to it, that, like, it's clearly the more emotionally resonant song, which generally is the thing that works with Oscar voters.

And they generally don't go for, like, was this the same year as Hell Caesar? was Hell Seusser, 2017? I think so. No Dames was not on the Right. But, right, and I think I remember that also So it wasn't eligible. But, like, Oscar voters

should go for something like No Dames, but it's more of a comedy song. And so, and those ones have a harder time kind of making it past the voters. And it's just, it's puzzling why they would i don't i mean obviously i don't think genius girl makes it either but it's weird that it's uh that they wouldn't have gone for that instead of myron byron i think in a perfect world genius girl is the nominee that year and because you look at all right let's look at

the nominees that year not a terrible year but not a great year it's a real mixed bag right where i did not make friends this year because like i love this category so much and like what people were happy about I was just like I was not making friends. All right, let's go through song by song. Okay, the winner that year is Remember Me from the Pixar film Coco. It was

the second original song win for Robert Lopez and Kristen Anderson Lopez who had done Let It Go for Frozen. Thoughts on Remember Me. Absolutely deserving winner. It's a wonderful winner. It's a very wonderful winner. I really would not have been my number one vote that year, but probably

would have been my number two. It's a lovely song I've been re-watching the Pixar movies lately and Coco is either next or within the next couple that I'm watching and I'm eager to re-experience it a wonderful song okay next one from the movie Mudbound

music and lyrics by Mary J. Blige, Raphael Sadiq and Tara Stinson it is Mighty River. Thoughts on Mighty River. We love Mary J. Blige Lodge, let's keep the double song and acting nominations rolling, guys. Let's let it be a trend that does not die.

Oh, but it's such a bad song, Chris. It's fine. It's fine. I mean, listen, I'm not going to shit on any other previous terrible nominees or winners that were written by Sam Smith on this podcast. But, like, I'm sorry. When Sam Smith wins for being, like, a soft

bobbing baby in the night, I can't complain about... Wait, okay, but if that's the standard, then we can't complain about anything. Like, I have to feel like at some point we have to set Sam Smith aside and decide that we have standards again. Mighty River is probably my fifth place, even though there's other songs that I'm just like throw my hands up and be like, I don't get it. Like, I have more ire for another one of these nominees. I know. We're going to get to it and we're going to fight about it. It's going to be fun. of love from Call Me By Your Name, Sufjohn Stevens.

Do you have your boxing gloves on because the fight starts now? Oh, so you are hardcore. Is it a video over Mystery of Love? No, I'm neither. Oh, you are this kind of insane. I've had this fight. I've had this fight with other people. Not with me. You don't like either of the songs. No, they're bad.

Oh, I don't think they're bad. I don't think they're bad at all. I think they're quite good. Even within the context. Okay, you like Call Me By Your Name, though, right? Sure. I love Guadino. I love his movies.

So you think the music in the films, both the Mystery of Love scene where they have the montage of them in the Hills being, you know, European, and then the end scene where he's having an emotional moment to... That's not about that song. I don't like that song. Is Visions of Gideon the more deserving nominee than Mystery of Love?

Yes. See, I disagree. I think Mystery of Love is a little better. I think as used in the film, Visions of Gideon is the one, is better deployed. I think it creates a more indelible moment. But as a song, I would listen to Mystery of Love first. Apologies to anyone that I'm offending with this, but Suffian Stevens is just, wail music to me.

How dare you? I just lost all of our gay listeners. Just for this, he's never going to write an Ohio album. He's going to skip that state when he finally makes all of his other state albums. Okay, next one, my pick. There's enough bad music about Ohio. My pick for the worst in the category comes from my beloved Diane Warren. You know I love Diane Warren.

I don't think this would have been a bad winner. We could finally get the Diane Warren win out of the way. It also would have been shared with Common. Like, I love Andrea Day. I mean, we all love Andrew Day. It's like a cheesy ballad, but like, whatever. It could be worse. It could be, you know.

So you're saying that this is significantly better than the RBG song that Jennifer Hudson did, also written by Diane Warren. I mean, that probably, this would have been a. better winner than that song, yeah. Well, sure, but again, low bar, low bar. I made the discovery this week. I had the epiphany this week that even though what I always say is that Diane Warren should have won her Oscar for Because You Loved Me from Up Close and Personal, because it was such a sort of signature hit song that year in pop music, an adult contemporary music, probably more

specifically, but looking at, like, she lost to Madonna, You Must Love Me, from Evita, not a great song, yet, yeah, yeah. It should have been that thing you do. Yes, I agree. I think if you're looking for the year where the competition basically demands that the Diane Warren song win, you look at 2001 and the year she wrote there you'll be for Pearl Harbor as performed by Faith Hill that lost to the deeply mediocre, you've got a friend and mean knockoff song from Monsters Inc. called If I Didn't Have You, that was, yes, Randy Newman's first Oscar after a long lifetime of trying. But if we had the foresight to know that he would win again for goddamn Toy Story

3 with an even more of a knockoff song from You've Got a Friend and Me, like we would have allowed that song to stay on the shelf where it belonged. The other nominees that year were Paul McCartney's deeply okay song from Vanilla Sky, called Vanilla Sky. The Sting Song Until from Kate and Leopold, which again, fine. And then Enya's May It Be from Lord of the Rings, fellowship of the ring, which like is so peculiar. Talk about whale music. Yes.

Like, there is your whale music, which like I don't dislike within the context of the film. But like, I'm never going to like crank up, may it be. Like, invite all the guys over. We're all going to like tear it up to may it be. Like, no, it's not going to happen. But I think there you'll be the classic Diane Warren power ballad and the classic Diane Warren mold. Like that is, that would have been not only the best of the five nominees that year, but like a very representative Diane Warren song, right? Where it gives you the best of the things like...

And a hit song. And a hit song. Yeah. Anyway. I mean, it probably didn't lose because everybody fucking hated that movie. Well, and rightly so. It's a bad movie. I've never seen it. I feel tempted.

Oh, it's like, if you have a spare six and a half days, because that's how long it feels, it just like goes on and on and on. It's just whatever. Whatever, I say. To loop it back to Myerowitz's stories, because the winner was Randy Newman. Randy Newman's score in this movie is great. I think it's better than the marriage story score. No, it's very, very good. I love it a lot. It's, um, God, you exist to, like, uh, just knock down marriage story at every time. I'll say it again. I like Marriage Story a lot, but, like, it just every time, when I've, I think maybe this is the first time I've seen this movie since Marriage Story. And I just feel like it's doing so much of what that movie wants to do or at least discuss so much of what that movie wants to discuss way better. Can we very briefly talk about Adam Driver's cameo in this movie where he plays?

We can. The only time, like, Adam Driver has ever been miscast. I don't understand that scene. to the point that you always forget that he's in this movie. I totally forgot. Cameos in this movie are wild. I don't necessarily feel like that character is enough of a character to judge whether he was miscast or not. I think it was like, you know, it was fun to see Adam Driver show up.

I sort of, it made me sort of wonder what exactly Ben Stiller's job is. Is he in real estate? Because I don't think he's necessarily in real estate. And he's also not necessarily in law. He's just sort of like is a money mover, sort of. And I think the movie is sort of vague about what he does purposefully because of that. He's some type of handler. My main takeaway, because the interaction between Stiller and Driver's characters in this movie is he's trying to convince him to do something with the building that he's bought or whatever and, you know, rent out the bottom floor and live on the two main floors, yada, yada, yada.

But my main takeaway is, at the end of this scene, Adam Driver, hugged. Ben Stiller and the massive frame of Adam Driver sort of enveloping Ben Stiller into a hug that just sort of feels very sort of like, like Adam Driver is a very sort of like broad shoulder, big limed, like every feature on him is sort of a little oversized. And I was just like... And we little Ben Stiller is subsumed into the arms of Adam Driver. And I am not like a wee little person by any stretch, and yet I long to be enveloped in an Adam Driver embrace of that sort of, like, just one time, you know how that, remember the whole Temple Grandin thing where, like, she invented a thing that essentially made cows more docile or whatever

that was, like, based on the idea of, like, a hugging machine that, like, that's how I want to feel, but with Adam Driver as my hugging machine. Like, I want to... Or you want one of those. like a sleeping pillows that are like people but you want it to be adam driver yes but instead of me hugging the pillow hugging pillow adam driver i want to have a pillow adam driver hugging me and really pillow is the wrong way to to say it because like adam driver doesn't seem squishy like a pillow like i want the sort of um apparatus steadiness the sort of just like the feeling of like I am being protected and consumed on all sides and just sort of just like wrapped up just really wrapped up in the kind of architecture of his limbs yes yes I understand

what you're saying the architecture the architecture of Adam Driver's limbs is the independent spirit award nominated film uh from 1992 starring Adam Driver yes um that is that is my main takeaway from Adam Driver in this movie otherwise um Yeah, like tons of great, we talked about the cameos. Gail Rankin, one more time, I just want to shout out, is so good as Pam. The scene when they, like, finally see her again, and she's like, Jesus, fucking cries, these people. Yes! Is amazing, amazing.

She's one of those actors who, now that I know who she is from watching Glow and from her smell, she'll show up in a bunch of things now. And I'm just like, oh, that was Gail Rankin. All this time, that was Gail Rankin, and I had no idea. Yeah, good for her. He's weirdly filled with recognizable faces. Truly every time I've watched this movie, I'm like, oh, yeah, Adam Driver's in this movie. Yes, yeah. And again, that sort of, I think it was Sandler.

It might have been Stiller, but I think it was Sandler after this movie, who was, like, so effusive about Bomback and was just like, any time he wants to make another movie, I'm there. And I think the way he, um, sort of. of brings his old cast members back, I think speaks really well of him, but like Josh Hamilton is in this movie for like half a second, and he, of course, was the star of kicking and screaming, which was Bomback's first movie that was, you know, sort of a breakthrough for him. Matthew Shear, who plays the sort of like, the Nebuchy lawyer type, who, like, Harold is, like, really super mean to him, is the boyfriend from Mistress America, who, who I totally loved.

We talked about Michael Churness. We talked about Mickey Sumner and wonderful Karen, who's the actress's name, Cindy Chung. Just really, I don't know, really fantastic, really wonderful, sort of, not necessarily like a repertory company of actors, but like close to it, right? Mm-hmm. That's wonderful. Joseph. Yes. We got to talk about Netflix.

I was going to say we've got to talk about the Cannes Film Festival, but yeah, we can sort of talk about both. I mean, Cannes and Netflix is kind of a little bit of the same conversation because this is the can that they took both Meyerwitz and Okja. And when the Netflix logo showed up at the like premiere at the giant Palais, they booed. They got booed. Right. Because the French government is in their laws of, like, it's in their laws of, like, exhibition for films. And, like, I forget what the time period is until something can go to streaming. But it's, I think at one point it was like three years.

So ever since there hasn't been in competition. Right. I don't think there was anything in 2018. I think it made such a stink that... No, didn't they, like, pull Roma because of that? They... Yeah, that's right. They would have had Roma.

Right. But because... And maybe also, Buster Scruggs... I can't remember. It's... You won't see Cannes movies in competition at Cannes. Right.

Although, wasn't there something that was going to be that a can this year? That, like, they were going to sort of fix that, and then there was no Cannes Film Festival? Can this year, Spike Lee, was supposed to be the jury president. which meant that Defyved Bloods wouldn't have been in competition, but there was some, like, rumor going around that they would have shown the movie out of competition or, like, in some unofficial capacity, they would have shown the movie.

So, yeah, it's a very tempetuous relationship for them. Yeah. Which sucks because, like, Netflix was actually just, like, kind of getting on its feet in terms, of like putting out the thing about Netflix original movies beyond even Netflix original television or like episodic content is that it's not a very long history at this point like beast of no nation was five years ago that was their first big attempt and they got the first like major pushback on like the theatrical versus streaming debate and like to the point. where 2016, they really didn't put anything forward for Oscar. Right. And, yeah, again, they really seemed like they were licking their wounds

from the Beasts of No Nation thing for a little good bit. And they were really like regrouping. Well, and the conversation has evolved so much in this short amount of time that I think people forget that like this can was a huge part of this whole narrative about like Netflix versus theatrical. Yes. And what that means for Oscar and all of that debate and, like, straight on through to another year and a half later where you have these stories of Spielberg trashing Roma because it isn't a theatrical movie, even though they put it in theaters. Yeah.

And that's partly how Green Book won. Well, 2017 also kicks off with, I don't feel at home in this world anymore, the Macon Blair movie with Melanie Linsky and Elijah Wood, that won the grand jury. at Sundance and was sort of, and then gets released on Netflix in February or March, like really early on in the year, and kind of disappears, like doesn't really do much of anything. And I think a lot of the critical establishment at the time was just like, what the fuck is the point of Netflix going to these festivals and taking these movies, that, like, people obviously loved and putting them on their streaming service and just sort of doing nothing for them.

And they're now all of a sudden a drop in the bucket. And I felt that frustration. Like, I don't feel at home in this world anymore. I did too. Was never going to be, like, a little Miss Sunshine-style, you know, breakthrough. But it's a really good movie that really deserved to be seen by a lot of people. And if a indie distributor, like, you know, we say 824 all the time because they're sort of, you know, they're the recent big success story with that.

But like if an indie distributor, theatrical distributor had taken them, maybe they, you know, they would have been remembered a little bit better or differently. I don't know. Sometimes they take the opposite side of that debate and take, look at it from the Netflix side

and just be, you know, like, in the grand scheme of things, nobody's seeing these movies in theaters either, right? Like, their numbers, are small enough that, like, it's a very, very select... They have to buy out the theaters, or they, for some cities they do. Like, Netflix movies do play here at my independent theater. But, like, in New York and L.A., Netflix has since bought their own theaters to use exhibition in.

Right. But I mean, if an indie movie that, you know, might have gotten bought by Netflix, if that's released as, you know, a Lionsgate movie or whatever, or, you know, an indie film gets released in theaters, It plays in, you know, the big markets. You're sort of like coastal markets in Chicago and Miami or D.C. or whatever. Two very, you know, modest numbers. Generally, very few people see it in theater. If it does get more of a life later on, you know, VOD, Blu-ray, streaming, whatever,

it has to sort of, like, build an audience. It's a very rare indie movie that becomes a splash. So really, it's on critics and on people who write about film to make those movies happen anyway. So why couldn't those critics and film writers make that movie happen from a Netflix release? So it does sort of feel like if a movie like I don't feel at home in this world anymore flops or like disappears, maybe that's not all on the platform. Maybe that's also on the fact that film critics and film writers have a bias against Netflix movies and don't treat those movies like real movies. And I think there is an auriborous effect, though, because some of these movies, people have a hard time getting pitches accepted for these movies because there's no promotion for them. So it's like editors also struggle to see the value in something that people aren't already talking about.

you know like things kind of have to catch on on the platform with a wide audience before like critics can do their job about some of these movies you know like there has to be a proven interest in some of these smaller movies and i think it's taken netflix a long time to learn how to platform these movies correctly i think this year they're they're starting to get it i thought um it's definitely evolved since like what my Marowitz is, where it's like, I think some of the frustrations we might have had in 2017 for some of the movies that they had, and even to a certain extent in 2018, for other movies that were not Roma, I think that they are, we need to remember that they are a company that was figuring it out for a few years, and now they've kind of figured some of it out. I think if you look at the way that movies like Defive Bloods and the Old Guard were promoted. promoted and were platformed, they're getting better at it. They are, they're treating these movies more like events and they are, not every Netflix movie is being treated to the same sort of like middling level of promotion that there are major releases. Where they just drop it on a platform or like some people who might have been excited about

an Okja or Amirowitz stories, like, it doesn't show up on the platform and you have to search for it for a few days. I remember Oakja. I had to look for Oakja. Yes. That's always been Netflix's problem, is that they don't, for as much as they talk about how smart their algorithm is and whatever, they don't make it easy to surface new theatrical release.

It's not perfect, too, for, like, the Oakja thing. Like, I pretty much only watch Netflix's original content on Netflix, that and, like, Great British Bake Off and nailed it. Well, nailed it. It's original. And so it's like, if that's the case. case than when you have an original film showing up on there, why are you not shoving it down my throat? But I think the other side of that coin, as I was sort of, you know, playing devil's advocate for, is I also feel like the people who write about film after Roma and after Irishman and after marriage story and after these successes are now treating Netflix movies like more of a real thing and like more of an event.

So I do feel like there is like a meeting in the middle. And I do feel like it's, you know, everything in the whole film publicity, release, review apparatus kind of has to be working together in order to make these movies feel like movies, like real movies. Because ultimately, it is a very small percentage of the population who sees anything but the biggest movies in theaters. And so it's all a matter of, like, it's not exactly slight of hand, but it's not not slight of hand in terms of just like, it's perception that makes something seem major or not major, kind of. Well, and my, my perhaps concern with Netflix, because they are getting better and they are getting more savvy at it to the point that, like, even in the year wherein, like, it

feels like regardless of COVID and everybody being stuck in their homes, or people should stay in their homes. Stop going to bars, everyone. It feels like those two examples you did of the Five Bloods and the old guard, it feels like regardless of COVID, they did a good job of eventizing those movies and they felt like summer movies, right? Regardless of the situation we're in, my concern with Netflix moving forward, especially with Oscar, is that, you know, that they have to turn all of their movies that they're putting out into huge successes for them to register. Like, last year is the first year that they got two of their movies to, like, really register with Oscar between Marriage Story and the Irishman, right? Yes.

And, like, they have a big fall planned, but, like, I just, this is where it does feel like a little unfair because, it's like I was a huge advocate a few years ago for private life, right? Private life wasn't a huge movie for them, but it was incredibly deserving. Like, does it have to, like, be met with the level of the Irishman publicity and the Irishman push and the Irishman viewership to, like, be deemed a success, whereas if it was theatrical, it wouldn't like I just don't know if that's going to be fair to some of Netflix's fall product like their animated films or Ma Rainey's Black Bottom or even hillbilly elegy which I'm just like a shiver goes down my spine whenever I hear those two words combined together um like I just you know it doesn't seem fair to those movies that like that's their barometer for success they have to be huge you know I don't disagree, and I think the same, I agree with you very much about private life. I think the same could be said about Dolomite is my name last year, which I also thought was like a really great

movie, that ultimately just wasn't a priority. That said, I mean, we've been doing this podcast for, you know, a couple, a few years now, and we've talked a lot about movies that were not Oscar successes, maybe not necessarily on their merits, but because the studio had bigger priorities, right? So, like, this isn't the thing that is only a Netflix thing. Like, there are good Fox Searchlight movies that get lost in the shuffle because they've got bigger fish to fry. There are certainly big studio movies that get lost in the shuffle because their Oscar push is going to X and Y. So, like, it's definitely... And, like, as this podcast also shows, there are big movies that get the push and just

aren't very good, you know. Right. But, yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see this year's slate of movies at first glance doesn't seem to have the sort of like heavy hitters that last year had lined up between Irishman and marriage story. And remember, two popes did very well with Oscar. And there was a lot of expectation on the laundromat, even though that didn't end up happening. But like, Netflix isn't just putting all its eggs in one basket anymore. So this year, we're going to see what they do in terms of the Sorkin movie, Trial of Chicago Seven, the Fincher movie, Mank about Harold Mankowitz, and I think you might even put Rebecca, the Ben Wheatley Rebecca, on that level. At the very least, it's a remake of a Best Picture

winner. You don't get those every day. You know what I mean? So like, you know, potential craft category nominee. type of things. Ben Wheatley's movies certainly do not. The Charlie Kaufman movie is absolutely going to get the short shrift on some of this stuff, though I hope it gets a makeup nomination. What is? Sorry,

I miss that. The Charlie Kaufman, I'm thinking of ending things. Oh, well, yes. But that was always going to be a tough sell. I was surprised to see the kind of universal good reviews for it this week.

Yeah. I don't think it's going to go great with the viewers on Netflix, but we will see. If you were to take a guess as to what are going to be the top two Netflix priorities for Oscar season. What do you think they're going to be? I think it's going to be Aaron Sorkin and David Fincher.

I think it could... At the very least, I think there, I mean, in terms of like, what Oscars individual are they going to be working for? I think it'll probably be Glenn Close and David Fincher. Glenn Close for Hillbilliology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think they could

I think depending... I think that movie's going to be terrible. I think depending on whether the reviews for Hillbilly Elgy are terrible or not, and they very well could be terrible. It's Ron... It could very easily just be Birdbox. The movie could just be Birdbox. It's Ron Howard, who is already a director who is sort of a mixed bag for critics,

directing an adaptation of a book that is, like, I haven't read it, so I can't speak on it, but, like, the knives are out for that. Like, I think that book had a big success and a bigger backlash. And I think they're, like, they could just be very happy to get everybody to watch that movie. And, like, that's, that's still a win for them. Sure. I do think, very likely, I think the big pushes will be trial of the Chicago 7 and Mank with the possibility that if Hillbilliology gets good enough reviews, that they could push that anyway. Or, as you said, try to push for a Glenn Close kind of a thing.

But at, you know, and again, we haven't had festivals yet. and really we're not going, like, none of these movies have been entered into the film festivals for the fall season, neither Toronto nor New York, nor, I don't even know what's going on with Venice at this point. But, like, so we're not going to have, we're not going to have what we had last year where two popes and marriage story did so well at the fall festivals that, like, we got a little, you know, Netflix was able to gauge that and figure out where to put their eggs in that basket accordingly. Although already, like marriage story, they were pushing from a very early stage last year. They sat on marriage stories so they could push it that hard. Yes. They knew what they had. I think they knew what they had in their, you know, the possibility for that.

I think we're just, it's going to be harder to tell what they have on their hands this year without the fall festivals. And so it's going to be real interesting to me what gets pushed. But at first glance, this feels like a less exciting or less, the possibilities for Oscar for Netflix feel less robust this year than they did last year. Well, I mean, it feels broader. It definitely feels like they're working with a lot more and they're going to be able to play their options. The thing about Netflix is as if they didn't already have the upper hand because of COVID and streaming and theaters not being available. or just being very volatile and, you know, the market, people thinking it's unsafe, I think they're unsafe.

They also have the upper hand because, like, makes coming out in October. Hillbilly Elegy is coming out in November, and the Oscar calendar is pushed. They can really take their time to, you know, figure out what's working for viewers. I really, I mean, I hope they bring back to Five Bloods in a real big way because my concern is

they have so much coming out in the fall that, like, they might, I hope that that doesn't get buried. Yes. And they actually spend the energy to bring that back into people's minds. Yeah. I think, yeah, it's, it's a long way to Oscar season at this point, so they're going to have a long time to figure it out. I almost said they're going to have the ability also to sort of release something in early

2021. But at this point, I don't know what's finished. Like, they have a big slate of, you know, movies that are scheduled vaguely for 2021. And they'll probably release their actual, like, calendar soon, if not by the time this episode drops, because we're usually like two weeks ahead. But, um... But there's like, there's a Guillermo del Toro, uh, it's the Pinocchio movie, but still, there's a Guillermo del Toro that they've got in their, you know, in their cue. there's a, there's a Jane Campion, there's a Henry Seleck, there's just like, there's a Clooney, there's, you know, again, none of these things are like slam dunks, but like, I just don't know what is finished or finishable by the end of February, you know?

Right, or how they're measuring it. And, like, they don't, here's the other thing about Netflix promotion, because, like, this week I kept seeing people complaining that there wasn't a Mank trailer teaser yet. They don't promote their movies until, like, six weeks out. of them dropping on the platform? Even less than that sometimes. Like, it's really... Yeah, because, like, they have so much content, like...

They do not do long lead trailers, ever, ever, Netflix. So, yeah. The longest lead they ever did was for the Irishman, which is, like, its whole own beast, when the Oscar ceremony before they had that, which showed no footage and had, like, two lines of audio and a spinning bullet. It's so tough, it's tough to extrapolate anything

from what they did for the Irishmen, because so much of what was done for the Irishman feels like it was mandated by Martin Scorsese wielding every inch of his clout in Hollywood for Netflix to treat his movie like a theatrical movie in every respect. And ultimately, I think it succeeded for the Irishman and also maybe succeeded for Netflix too, and that it showed Netflix what could be done if they did maybe play the game a little bit more like the studios played it, even though I think foundationally and philosophically they're so resistant

to playing things like the studios just because they want to be the disruptor and they want to be the new paradigm so much that they'll do it for Scorsese but I really think they'll push back on doing it for say Aaron Sorkin or even David Fincher Ron Howard. Well I mean Aaron Sorkin they bought that movie

they didn't develop it, they didn't produce it so like I'm willing to bet that that could be more of a populist thing than an awards play because it wasn't part of their plan initially. Possibly. Although, I mean, it's going to be irresistible to try to turn that into like the political statement of the moment, right?

Sure, sure. It'll be interesting. Anyway, anything we also want to say about Meyerwith's stories before we move into IMDB game. Elizabeth Marvell is a national institution. She's incredible in this movie and should have gotten more attention. It's weird that Sandler only got a Critics' Choice nomination for comedy, but the movie wasn't nominated for comedy. Yeah, that is weird.

I'm kind of struck by that. It's like, that's just a key example of, I think critics not really doing their job or just not responding that strong. Did Netflix ever pull out the $42 million, not $42 million, $42 million viewers for this movie? I don't think they did. No, they never made it.

This was in the era where it's like every movie had the same number of viewers they claimed. Yeah, they never made a big viewership claim for this movie. They didn't really tout this movie very much at all, unfortunately. I wanted to mention how much I loved in the movie the way it presented the relative and various artistic merits of the characters were like, you see that Danny is talented, but also that, you know, it's this very sort of like,

low-key talent, so it's not this, like, hidden genius kind of a thing. And especially in the way it shows Eliza's short films or sort of student films that are the product of a very kind of like young and, uh, want to be, uh, outrageous kind of mind of an 18-year-old, but it also, she's not like a phony, right? Like, she's not this like, um, she's not, a hack you know she's you can tell she probably does have talent and like an artist's impulse but also like this movie is amateur garbage but in a way that like feels realistic for an 18 year old like she has ideas as an 18 year old that are like interesting that like she's learning how to

manifest them and danny being her father is like I think it's brilliant I think you know I've never seen a sex scene filmed this way before like and it's It's just like, and it's very funny because it's so, like, sexually explicit and watching them all sort of like hovering around the laptop screen. Watching it is very funny. But also it's just like, yeah, she's, you know, a college freshman getting all her big avant-garde college freshman ideas about what if a superhero had a penis and a vagina, like this kind of thing. And it's just like, oh, you are exactly the kind of- You got to get some of this out of your system. You're exactly the kind of person you should be at this age. Like that's, you know, I really liked that. I almost wondered and I don't know how I feel about this if that was like where some of the like inspiration of Greta Gerwig shows up in this movie because like let's not forget she started in mumblecore movies.

Totally, yeah. I also want to... Also, Ben Stiller in this year, like I kind of wrap these two performances up because like if this was really the fall of me being like, Wow, Ben Stiller. It's also the same year as Brad status, which he was going to mention this. He's phenomenal in Brad status. He was on my ballot that year for Brad status. Mike White's Brad status is such an underrated movie because you think it's going to be one kind of a movie and it really undercuts that the kind of movie that you think it's going to be. You think it's going to be this sort of like middle age, you know, Gen X kind of whale. into the darkness about, you know, what is my life, and I don't understand millennials. It's so sad to be a 40-year-old man.

Right. But really, it's a movie that is about, you know what, actually, no, it's not. Your life is fine. Well, and it challenges him to sort of, like, see outside of himself in some ways. And does it in a way that's really, I think, generous and kind. Was this also the year? But not, like, pulling punches. I think it does, like, you know, it's not playing softball.

Was this the same year as Beatrice's at dinner? Yes. So, like, Mike White nailed this year. Like, Mike White had such a great year this year. Meyerowitz is also a movie that gets how funny it is to watch people who don't normally run, run. Just all the little, like, the ways in which he films Dustin Hoffman's character, sort of, like, trotting along, trying to catch up to something, or, like, running away from something is very funny. and there's the scene where Gene sort of runs out of the parking lot to the woods.

And Matthew just goes, I've never seen Gene run before. And Danny goes, yeah, that's what she looks like when she's running. It's so funny. I loved it. I'm also, in general, just a huge sucker for movies that center sibling relationships. And this is such a good one. Mm-hmm. It's such a good one.

I agree. I love it. I mean, I'm always, like, same as you, I am a sucker for movies that have, like, extended family relationships or things that are outside of the, like, nuclear relationship but are still family. Like, I love a lot of Ira Sax's movies for this as well. And, like, as someone who is not, like, everyone is 100% a biological relationship to me. Or it's like, you know, like I said, my siblings are, like, technically. have siblings and I've had step siblings and it's like it's it's really um its own thing in a way that's not really ever spelled out in a way that the Meyerowitz stories does yeah i agree it's like

how in mistress america they're sisters but not sisters you know what i mean right like they're going to be sisters and then they're not going to be sisters but there's you know i love it i want to go watch mistress america now maybe i will maybe i will today you should Quick watch. Joseph, should we move into the IMDB game? Yeah, let's do that. All right, why don't you tell our listeners new and old what the IMDB game is? Sure, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game,

where we challenge each other with an actor or our actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. and a MoMA show full of video installations is what it will become. Rebecca Miller's really good in this movie, too, I have to say. Yes, indeed.

Anyway. Also, Judd Hirsch. I don't think we ever mentioned Judd Hirsch. Yeah. That's another character who you think is going to be the villain and ends up just sort of like being a guy who you can see why Harold would be frustrated by his success. But he's not like a bad guy. He's just doing his own thing. Yeah.

All right. Anyway. Would you like to give or guess first? Why don't I give first? I don't think I've given first in a while. I have no basis for saying that. All right. So Noah Bomback throughout his storied career

has not only directed films that he's written, but he's co-written films that he has not directed. Two of them being with Wes Anderson, he co-wrote Fantastic Mr. Fox with Wes Anderson, and he got an Oscar nomination. Is that right for co-rating? The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissu. Am I making that up?

No. Well, he should have. Steve Zissu has no nomination. No nominations. No nominations. No nominations. Right. Why did I think that?

We could cover it on this podcast. Anyway. Right. His Oscar nominations are for Squid and the Whale and for marriage story. What a dumb thing for me to think of that he was nominated for LepaQaeda. He actually had a wide gap between Oscar nominations. He did. He did. Anyway, Life Aquatic with Steve Zissu is a movie that he wrote the screenplay for.

One of the stars of that movie, although not in a very big role, is Angelica Houston. And somehow, we have never done an IMDB game for Angelica Houston. Angelica Houston, my birthday twin. Really? Congratulations. That's a great one. Yeah. I'm always happy to have a cool one. Okay, so Angelica Houston, got to say the Adams family. Yes, the Adams family Probably the Witches

The Witches Very good, soon to be remade Back on Netflix, watch it It is still a time Yes What of her Oscar movies Do I think is on there

I'm gonna say Well, it's probably her win So Pritzie's honor Incorrect, not Pritzu's honor I might have to come back to this Because I mean the Grifters is kind of It has huge fans

But like Enemies of Love Story is probably not there What was her other nomination? Something Is it not just the three? I think it's just the three No, I think she has four Nope, it's just the three What am I thinking of?

Royal Tenet Bombs incorrect. That's two strikes. Now you're going to get years. Your years are 1990 and 1998. I don't like this. I should have got it perfectly. Um, uh, is 1990 the grifters? It is the grifters. Yes. Oscar nominated for the grifters. I mean, is she top build or is kusak top build in that? Um, technically, according to the poster, it is kusack, Houston, and Benning, but it's the three of them. And it's a one of those posters where the names are side by side, but do not, strictly speaking, correspond with the actors. So on the poster, it's Houston, then Cusack, then Benning, left to right,

but it's Cusack, then Houston, then Benning, left to right, and the billing. So she got a lead actress nomination for it, though. Yes, that I knew. Yeah. Okay. I think this, oh, wait, what was the year? 1998. That's got to be Everett. after. Ever after showed up for Drew Barrymore and someone else, I think, previously. Really? That's amazing that you remember that. Yes, ever after a Cinderella story, a movie that is way weirder than you remember it. And if you have a chance to go watch it again, I would suggest doing so. It's weird. It's fun. If I didn't have the year, my other guests would have probably been 50-50, because 50-50 has weirdly shown up for other people.

Yes. Didn't it show up for like Anna Kendrick? Yes, I think that's right. interesting Anyway, I went back in the Bomback filmography as well went back to his first nomination for the squid and the whale

who is a performer we sometimes forget as in squid in the whale but Miss Anna Pacquin Oh, I thought you were going to pull Billy Baldwin out on me Yes, Miss Anna Pacan. No, not Billy Baldwin I'm not being that cruel to you

Anna Pacquin, no voiceover work Anna Pacquin during her only exclusively playing jailbate college students era. Indeed. Indeed. Yeah. Anapaquin, no TV meaning no true blood. That is interesting. Okay. I think true. Here's the thing about TV and IMDB is known for. I feel like if it is a show that stays good and stays beloved in its whole run, it will show up. That is my theory about

TV. Yeah. I think that's right. Anyway, I'm going to put a pin in my decision. as to which X-Men movie to guess for her, whether it's the first or the second, and truly chaotic if it's the third. I'm going to start with the piano. The piano? Correct. Her Oscar win. I was joking if I was going to do Halloween this year, I would dress up as Anna Pacquine winning her Oscar. With that hat. Yeah. Okay. That hat and that vest, honey. The thing about Anna Pacquin is she will show up for an ensemble. Like, she will, and whether IMTB will recognize that or not. I'm going to guess Almost Famous.

No. Okay. All right. So now with one strike, I'm going to need to delve into the X-Men of it all. I'm going to say the first X-Men. Yes, X-Men. Almost Famous weirdly does not show up for a lot of people on their known. It should, but you're right.

It doesn't. All right, let's see. X-Men 2. Yes, I thought that would trip you up, X-Men 2. All right. Okay, so that's three of the four. It's almost certainly not this, but it is her one big lead role, so I'm going to say Marguerette. No, unfortunately, Marguerette's masterpiece.

She's brilliant in it. Yeah. Not on there. Your year is 2005. Okay. So, squid in the whale. It is squid in the whale. I hate that that's how it came out because you think that I'm doing this to you and I am not doing this intentionally.

It's, okay, first of all, you're not not doing it intentionally, but also, she has such a small role in that movie. That's so funny. I don't know, man. It's on Criterion Channel. Maybe people are looking it up. I don't know. All right. Well done.

Anna Pac-Wan would be great in another Noah Bomback movie. I know. Just throwing that out there. Do another one. Yes. Exactly. All right. Joseph, I think that's our episode.

Nice. Our episode, parenthetical, finished, and enjoyed. Yes, exactly. If you want more of This Head Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Bud, Buzz, Bud. Had Oscar Bud. That's our weed offshoot podcast. Yes.

if you want to smoke weed and talk about the Oscars. Yeah, and who doesn't? Would listen. Joseph, where can the listeners find you and your stuff? I'm on Twitter at Joe Reed. Reed is spelled R-E-I-D. I'm on letterboxed as Joe Reed spelled the exact same way. I'm also on Twitter at Krispy File, F-E-I-L,

also on letterbox under the same name. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Mievious for their technical guidance. Y'all, please, please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcast. If I've started a review in particular, really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility.

So please let us, oh, fuck, I didn't even mention this, but the ending joke is that I love that the opening scene has iconic Rupol's, or non-iconic Rupal's Dragwase, lip sync song, Head to Toe. Yes, Lisa, Lisa and Kelcham. It's such a great intro to the film.

Anyway, maybe it'll be the outro to the episode, but please love us from Head to To Toe in song or otherwise. Yes. It's all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye.