This Had Oscar Buzz - 115 – The Death and Life of John F. Donovan

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

For his first English language film The Death and Life of John F. Donovan, Cannes darling Xavier Dolan assembled a stunning prestige cast that promised a major leveling up from the filmmaker. And then disaster struck. Filming began shortly after his critically reviled It’s Only the End of the World debuted and at Cannes and Dolan’s response cemented … Continue reading "115 – The Death and Life of John F. Donovan"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. I would letter to John F. Donovan about five years ago. It was rather foolishing me to think he would answer, but he did.

I'm only 11 years old, but later I'll be like him. And we'll act in movies together. Rippitt, you made up that story. I didn't. You lied, and you lied for years. I just didn't say anything. Did you, or did you not write letters to that kid? Do you have a pen pal?

Child pen pal. Do your job. Next. You are never to write to that man again. Do you understand? Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast confrontationalally spreading our legs for Richard Dreyfus. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations,

but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with my favorite pen pale Chris File. Hello, Chris. I'm writing a letter to you from Room. no. Oh, I hope things are going okay in Room. I've heard good things. Lost my melt-a-dispoon.

Oh, the Airbnb reviews on Room are really good, actually, surprisingly. I don't know what to say about Airbnb reviews for Room. I feel like back in the day when, like, single-service tumblers were a thing. I talk about this a lot. It's a weirdly formative time in my Internet. whatever um that like yelp reviews of uh or Airbnb reviews of room would have been like a thing would have been like a blog somebody created would have been like uh photos accurately represent uh Airbnb be more spacious than expected right right exactly yes cozy cozy cute um secure yeah oh room yeah room bedroom in wardrobe smaller than

expected. Room is one of the handful of movies that you can absolutely tell that like played at Tiff as Xavier Dolan was casting the life and, or the death and life of John F. Donovan. Sure, sure, sure. That, like, absolutely just like went from like A to B in terms of casting. And, oh, Jacob Tromblay. Well, you know, he was in this movie. Poor Jacob Tromblay did not get to be in a Star Wars movie like he wanted, but he did. did get to be in a movie that took forever to arrive and then kind of never did. Yeah. So, yeah.

This movie was shot into a galaxy far, far away, never seen again. Yeah, I do feel like I'm something of an emissary with this movie because I do feel like, even with our audience who are like plugged into this kind of thing intensely, I really don't feel like a lot of people have seen this movie because I feel like more people would talk about it if they had I mean like I was very eager to see it at the TIF that we saw it at where even like

So you did see it at Tiff I did I even reviewed it too amazing yeah I didn't it was on my like it was on my long list of like I'd like to see that movie because even by then

because it's only the end of the world had been so poorly reviewed and because there was a lot of, like, sort of dubious snark around the development of this movie. It was the four-hour cut. It was cut down. Jessica Chastain was there, and then she wasn't. There were those character posters that everybody kind of laughed at. And the publicity photos. You texted me just before we started this. You terrorized me with that shot of Natalie Portman and Jacob Trombly and the publicity photo. I will never let that go off of my photo reel. I love that publicity photo of the two of them.

I don't even know what it is about it, because it's not like. Like, it's, and, like, Trombly does look a little bit like an alien child, but, like, that's sort of his vibe. Like, that's, he works that vibe, and he winks at work. What it, what kind, like, you kind, that photo, why I love it so much, I view it in context of, it is shocking that they did even that level of publicity for the movie, and there's something about both of their facial expressions that they're like, I guess we're doing this, man. Like, we're here, we're putting on a nice face for this movie, which, like, I guess we should kind of, like, before we get into it, we should say the timeline of this movie.

Right. So it's like, I forget when the cast was announced, but, like, for Zavia Dilan, who does, like, Canadian art films that, like, have, we'll talk about the goodwill dwindling for Zavia Dilan further into the episode. but, like, massive stars for this movie, like Natalie Portman, Jessica Chastain. This was him, if we, Bates... If we want to talk about this in sort of the parlance of our favorite podcast, Blank Jack,

this is Zavia Dolan cashing in, right? This is him cashing in on the acclaim that he had been building up, and it sort of crested with Mommy, and now, I think, with... Mommy was the... Canadian Oscar submission didn't get nominated. Should have one of the best movies of that year.

Like this, immediately it has a perception of, oh, this is going to be like the major arrival because he's getting whatever the script would have been, he's getting these major stars that like obviously are swayed by something in whatever this project is going to be. So it's like also when we talk about like our relationship to like this movie and like the purposes of this podcast, it's full. we should be saying that it's fully, like, year-out predictions that it's like, oh, this could be an Oscar movie. Oh, absolutely. Well, once this thing started getting cast, once this thing started getting cast on the heels of how great Mommy was, and that Mommy did win, you know, won a prize at Cannes and was, you know, should have been an Oscar nominee for a foreign language film that year, but it just wasn't.

So, like, there was every reason to imagine that Dolan would continue sort of, like, trending upwards, right? And with, uh, it's only the end of the world and John Ftanovin seemed like they were both in production at the same time. I don't know what exactly the production timelines are. No, this is the timeline for the movie because, like, it's only the end of the world. I definitely think kind of soiled this movie's reputation quickly before, like, even, the post-production situation for death and life of John F. Donovan.

Okay, so movies announced he goes to Cannes with It's Only the End of the World, which itself is like a huge like French cast of like marrying Cotillard

Leia Sudeau. Right, that was also a leveling up for him, right? Where that was when he was starting to cast like these big European stars. Immediately the movie out of Cannes gets these like toxic reviews where it's like He gets ripped over the coals and, like, he starts having open arguments with certain American critics.

And then the movie wins the Grand Prix, which is second place at Cannes. And apparently jury member Donald Sutherland and fellow Canadian had a hand in, like, really pushing for that movie to get a major prize. during the award ceremonies Zavia Dilan has like this very emotional extended acceptance speech where he's going on for several minutes which it's like everybody kind of shit on him for like having this indulgent speech

which is like if you look at it on a human level you can understand someone being emotional about like winning a prize like that yeah totally but cut to the shadiest and funniest jump cut I have ever seen in cinema on television at an award ceremony ever. They cut to a dead ban Mads Mickelson and instantly it becomes like a meme through like film Twitter circles and like critic circles and that on Twitter to where

it's like you just show a picture, that picture of Mads Mikkelson looking very scantz at Zavia DeLan sobbing. It's one of those reactions that, like, more likely than not, Mads Mikkelson was like pairing down his grocery order in his head or, like, wondering if he returned that phone call that he needs to return or like... One of those things that's innocuous, but we put our own feelings on to it. Yes, exactly. But I think you're right of fact that, like, the intentionality of the cut to it is almost...

Shady. The real, yeah, that's the real intention there, yeah. And, like, there was already some, like, among the snobs building resentment towards Zavia Dilan because he won the jury prize for Mommy at Cannes, but he tied with Goddard, which a lot of people look incredibly... Okay, but he tied with Goddard for goodbye to language, which, like, I know a lot of people really loved that, but also it's not like he's, you know, I don't know. I thought that to me was a little bit of some gatekeeping action going on

where it's just like this 20-something French-Canadian child. Oh, absolutely. It isn't allowed to be in the same breath. How dare they place him alongside Goudardar. Yeah. I don't know. Easily Savio Delan's best movie and like the movie that we hope that he will keep making something at the level of. Yeah.

I think, I mean, we'll get into the actual merits. of death and life of Jonathan Donovan, for sure. And I still have not seen it's only the end of the world, so I can't speak to... I have. I think people are way overblown in hating that movie.

Interesting. I think it's a little ridiculous. This is sort of how I feel about Xavier Dilan as a whole, is that, and I mean, not to, like, get into a whole thing that I sort of got into with Ryan Murphy a couple weeks ago, but, like, we're so...

not overly harsh, but, like, there's so much going on in the way that, like, the queer community reacts to artists like Zavia Dolan, and there's just absolutely no leeway for fuck-ups, right? Where all of a sudden, it's just like, there's almost a sense of embarrassment that we, like, put all our chips in on this guy, and then all of a sudden he's coming out with something that does not reflect well on him or anybody who likes him and it feels like you've got to make that like whiplash turn on him to like turning him almost into this like meme of object of derision and I don't know it feels it feels like eating our own in a way that I don't love and I think it happens a lot

I don't think he's done himself any favors in terms of how he like openly responds to his criticisms in a way that's incredibly defensive. Yeah, he's a brat. He's an absolute, that's why our little tease to this was the Canadian baby when he teased our episodes on Twitter for the coming month. I said, well, let's have a Canadian baby because he's a brat. He's, you know, that's his reputation. And I mean, like, it also, like, pulls into question, like, he's made actually a lot of movies. Not all of them have made it safely to the States. Like, this didn't even drop onto VOD until well over a year of, after they premiered at Cannes here in the States. And, or not Can, at Toronto, obviously. Because this went through two he to loop back to, like, the timeline. of this movie. He starts shooting this movie like a month, a month and a half after winning

at Cannes for It's Only the End of the World. So it's like, I want to clarify though, immediately started? Yes. I want to clarify though that when I said that both of these were in production at the same time, I think what I meant to say was they were both, had already both been announced. Like there was a time when both of them were sort of in the in the spyglass for Xavier Dolan, right? We're like, we were, like, we were. looking forward to both of them, and nobody had seen either one of them. John F. Donovan was still in the, like, casting phase, and it's only the end of the world was still in production. And I think both of those on the horizon, sometimes you get this sense of, oh, well, look at this bounty of really exciting work coming from this one artist.

Clearly, something's going to hit, like the law of averages. And as I've said before on this podcast, that's almost the opposite is almost. more often true with that, right? Where it's just like the law of averages doesn't work that way with films like this. It's just like, just because an actor has three buzzy looking movies coming

in the coming year, doesn't mean that he's like bound to hit for one of them. Like that's just not how it works. But you're right that there is kind of a blurring together of these two projects, at least when like it's only the end of the world was the laughing stock. But then this movie

has like two full years of can film festivals where it's rumored to possibly show up. Right. And then it doesn't. And when they book it at TIF, like, it got announced when they announced the rest of the Canadian films and they like, even

like sandwiched slid it in like quietly, basically. And it really was like unceremoniously premiered. Like those character posters that I talked about were like there's

eight of them. It's Portman, Tromblay, Kit Harrington. It's everyone. Kathy Bates, Susan Stranden, Tandy Newton, and then Jessica Chastain gets one of them, of course. And that was months before, I'm pretty sure, it was months before we found out that Jessica Chastain had been cut from that movie. And that was still a good number of weeks before it premiered at Tiff, I'm pretty sure. So, like, because by the time I period of Tiff, we knew that she was cut from that, and there had already been all these rumors of, you know, how long the a four-hour movie, and how it's got to be cut down. So, like, those, that promotion for the movie had started a long time before. Like, there was a long while of us sort of being on the hook

for this movie. And, yeah, by the time it premiered, it was already, it had seemingly, had already sort of gone through the churn of film Twitter, gay film Twitter, all of this stuff, that by the time it premiered at TIF, its only option was to be so shockingly better than what we thought it was going to be, that it would, like, that was the only story that was left to it was, this movie that we all thought was going to be crap is actually good, and it wasn't. And so there was... I mean, no real critics, I feel like if they saw, the movie there in TIF. Like, everyone was real quiet about it.

Hardly anybody did. I saw it with a friend and former guest Nathaniel Rogers seated next to me, and he hated it even more than I did. But, like, it wasn't a full press screening. And, like, I just remember nobody prioritizing it. No. And I think it was also one of those ones that, like, screened late in the week that year. Are I mistaken?

They buried it when most of the press is gone. Right. So, before we get into it, I'll say there are moments in this movie I liked. I don't like this movie. I don't think it's a good movie. I think it's fatally flawed in several ways that we'll get into. A million ways. I think there are moments in this movie that work that make me feel like,

not that this could have been a better movie because I think one of the fatal flaws of this movie is like, why are we telling this story? It's pretty shallow, too. But, like, there are a couple scenes with a couple performers, I think, are interesting, and there are, like, there are moments where I see the glimpses of the Xavier Dolan that I really love, which are that sort of unabashed sincerity, I guess, is sort of what I'm, which is sort of a funny word to think about for somebody. and sincerity. Right. I have a theory about this that we'll get into later.

But I, okay, it's interesting to hear you say that. I thought you would hate it maybe more than I do. Watching it again, first of all, how dare you make me watch this movie again after I'd already seen it? But also, my feeling is those moments that work kind of tell me that the longer version of the movie that can kind of flesh out some of these threads that it has, like, it fully does not develop half of its themes in this movie, but the longer version of the movie that really can, like, develop these character relationships, like, make it clear what the movie is

trying to be about, is probably the better movie. Well, the funny thing about watching this movie is, it doesn't immediately come across, like, a four-hour movie that's been cut down to two hours because it doesn't disagree. Well, let me explain that because I think in a way that sometimes you expect that a long

movie that's been cut down to two hours, it feels like all of the scenes feel like half of a scene. And I don't think that's the case in this movie. There are very long scenes in this movie. You just are getting half of the long scenes that you are probably

going to get. And I think it feels like big portions of the story were taken away, but none of it feels frantic in terms of the editing of it. There's like, they're like Kathy Bates, who's a minor character in this movie, gets like a really long monologue, and certain things like that, where it's just like these scenes do go on. And if you, have you ever seen the cut scene with Jessica Chastain? Like the scene? I definitely want to talk about Jessica Chastain for this, because, like, I saw one that, like, a friend sent to me a few months ago, and it has since been taken down off of YouTube.

There's definitely still one on YouTube. Maybe could have been even worse. Yes. There's a scene on YouTube that I, she doesn't speak in, but where John F. Donovan, she clearly works for a tabloid. The tabloid is called Gossip. Very TMZ Perez Hilton. She's like, if Tandy Newton is.

the, like, open-minded journalist in this movie, then, like, Jessica Chastain is the evil tabloid journalist. She's got, like, insane red hair, like, Sydney Bristow and the pilot of alias red hair, like, all of the manic panic in the universe went into this hair. And she's at the, like, head of the table. Like alligator print blouse. Right. She's at the head of the table in this conference room that, like, John F. Donovan sort of, like, storms. And the whole thing is filmed in slow motion. And she's got this like wickedly sort of like evil look in her eye and she's sort of like resting her face on her like fingernail tips and whatnot. And he like pulls out a baseball bat out of his bag and like smashes the table. And then the next scene that's also on this cut scene that I saw

is him walking on the street and seeing the cover of the magazine after he gets like dragged out of the building by security. The cover of this magazine is just like the real truth behind John F. Donovan or whatever. And his reaction to this. magazine cover takes a full like four minutes. It just goes on forever. And you're just like, oh, okay, that's how this movie made it to four hours is every single scene took like 10 minutes. And sometimes in a movie that's, you know, long takes are good. Long scenes are good. We don't want something to seem too overly frenetic. But like, that's sort of what I mean by that it doesn't feel like that the finished product still feels long and languorous and, you know, all these

scenes are going on for like a year and a day. And I don't know. I feel like to explain how I think maybe the longer version is better or makes sense or like completes any of its ideas, we have to get into the plot of the movie. Yes. So that I can explain myself. All right, all right. So let's get to the other side of that. We're going to be talking about the death and life of John F. Donovan. The technically 2019 film, although it premiered in 2018, at the Toronto Film Festival, directed by Zavia Dolan, written by Zavia Dilan and Jacob Tierney,

starring Kit Harrington, Natalie Portman, Jacob Tromblay, Tandy Newton, Susan Sarandon, Kathy Bates, Chris Zilka, Ben Schnitzer, Emily Hampshire. This had Oscar Buzz All-Star Emily Hampshire now with her second. Also, this had Oscar Buzz, Sarah Gadden. Yes, Sarah Gatton, Michael Gambon, Amara Karan, and Jared Kiso. It did premiere at the Toronto Film Festival on September 18th, 2018. It premiered in the United States in a whisper of a release on December 13th, 2019.

Like, dates for this movie barely matter. Like, I don't even know how we're going to log this for our spreadsheet of, like, the years we've done, because it's really in a no-man's land. I mean, I am a stickler for technicality, so it is a 2019 film if we're going by United States release dates. But you're right. It doesn't feel like it at all. So it would be our first scare quotes 2019 movie. Right.

With an asterisk and whatnot. The real first 2019 movie that we'll be doing will be the Katsasode in January. Right, right, exactly. Plug for Katsisode. Yeah, when you mentioned, when I suggested doing this movie and you're like, it's a 2019 and I'm like, no, really can't be. Can't possibly be. It's been with us forever.

It's true in the most, like, wiped from the face of the earth movie we've done. It's like time, time, listen, we are still in quarantine. Time is still a fluid construct. I'll say this, though. It's more like a gaseous anomaly. I'm going to take a little bit of the other tack for, I don't feel like this movie is wiped from the face of the earth. I feel like nobody's seen it, but I feel like a lot of people have opinions of it because a lot of people sort of observed that promotional, you know, blitz for it with the posters and whatnot. And remember hearing about.

just how bad it is. I just don't think anybody's seen it. I don't think any of our listeners have seen it. But I do feel like they know what it is. Be fascinated if any of them watch this for this episode. And if they do, I apologize. All right. I got to explain what this movie is. Yes, you do. 60 seconds on the clock. Are you ready? Sure. Go. Okay, so Jacob Trombley plays this little boy named Rupert. He wants to be an actor. He's obsessed with this other actor named John F. Donovan, who's based on like a CW show, but he's a little gay boy.

His mom is Natalie Portman. She wants to be an actress, but like she doesn't get jobs, whatever. Or maybe they both want to act, whatever. Anyway, cut forward to the future when Rupert is an older actor and he's being interviewed by Tandy Newton about his relationship to John F. Donovan. Apparently, they exchanged letters and it was a big controversy, whatever. We also go and see like John F. Donovan's life where he's closeted and he, like, struggles and, like, loses this big, like, superhero movie because of these letters coming out.

We never really know if he wrote those letters, though the movie tells us. It's very super confusing. Anyway, Jacob Trombley and Natalie Portman reconcile their tough relationship. Kit Harrington sings Lifehouse in a bathtub and dies. And then I guess we kind of know what happened. Then we don't. It's... Yeah.

Okay. Do you think John F. Donovan wrote those letters? letters. Okay. This is one of the three sort of like big conversation points I want to have. It's incredibly confusing. It's incredible. It's because it really feels like John F. Donovan, the letters that Rupert are sent is like a Santa situation and his mom is writing them, right? That's what it seems like it's going to turn out to be for a lot of the movie. And then it doesn't. It's, it's, yes, I think you're, I definitely suspected that it was Natalie Portman's character. writing these letters because she doesn't want her son to feel alone and she sees that her son is this is the only thing in his life that brings him joy he gets bullied at school but he looks so forward to coming home and watching the show um pin in that because i want to talk about the show for a minute um full like vampire diaries well i've got my theories i've got my theories but we've got pin in that um and then the

the the story comes out it's a scandal for him it's a it's sort of of it's twinned with the other scandal of him having carrying on this affair with the Chris Zilka character. So like both of those things kind of emerge around the same time and it swirls into this one big story. I think the cutting out of the Jessica Chastain character takes like leaves a lot of that up in the air in terms of like what exactly the tenor of this scandal is. There's this suggestion that he's like writing letters to a 12 year old boy and the

suggestion, I guess, is they're trying to say he's a pedophile, but you never see anyone in the press call him, a pedophile. And I feel like the Jessica Chastain character would be the one who was doing that, and we just don't get that. Right, you're right. It's all left to, like, innuendo. But as far as we know, we've heard, like, as far as we know, these letters are exactly what they turned out to be, which is totally innocuous and, you know, nice and sweet and whatever. But the The last one that reads like a suicide note, but we never see Kit Harrington, like, writing him a letter. We never really get any confirmation that he actually wrote them. We get confirmation that Portman didn't.

We get confirmation that Portman didn't because we finally eventually see her, receive the one note, and she reads it, and she's moved and she cries on it, and she gets felt tip ink on her thumb, and that's a callback to the first scene. And the letter, like a report that she thinks. is about John F. Donovan is really about his mom and how, like, they have a great life together. Cut to them slow motion running in the rain towards each other, set to Florence Welch doing Stand By Me. Wait, is that the order of things? I guess that is the order of things. No. The Stand By Me thing happens earlier. That's when, because that happens. Yeah, it's fully the resolution of their story and there's like another 45 minutes left. Right. But you're right. I think it's, one

Once we find out that it's not Portman, we in the audience know it must be John F. Donovan, and yet we never see on the John F. Donovan side of things confirmation of that. And it's not like I need to, like, have a registered letter telling me what a plot point is. But emotionally for that character, it's very important that we see what those letters, what writing those letters and what this correspondence means to him. It's also that his side of the story is presented that this whole thing is ludicrous. right it's like he is so he goes on the talk show and he laughs it off and it's all very sort of like cold and heartless affirmational in all of his uh scenes that it's not true as the mom is that like are suspicions that the mom santa claus these letters and yet you get the sense i go back to that kathy bates scene kathy bates plays manager and she gets her big monologue as she's telling him that she's essentially firing him as a client and i from it's one of those sort of like a little bit kind of an obtuse, opaque monologue where you don't know exactly the specifics of what has caused her to dump him. But I don't think from the tone of what she's saying, because she's sort of talking about how she wants to work with, you know, pure sort of artists. And it doesn't sound like she's dumping him because of the gay rumors. It sounds like she's dumping him because he totally disavowed this child on the talk show. and it was cruel, and it seems like she knows that it was a lie.

And that's why she doesn't want to work with him, because she doesn't think he's a good guy. Yeah. It's all incredibly, like, confusing. And, like, this is what I was saying that I feel like the longer version of the movie probably fleshed these things out to where it's like, it is about this, or it actually ties these things together that, like, you're saying. feel very vague. And, like, that's what got cut out. And yet, this story, the story of a closeted

actor on a CW show who maintains a, you know, pen-pale relationship with this kid who grows up and then, you know, wants to, is giving it. I still, I genuinely don't understand why Tandy Newton's character is interviewing grown-up Jacob Trombley, played by a Ben Chester. I want to talk about that. I have a theory. So, like, all of that is strange? It's the least grace I have to give to Dolan. I agree. That's the worst thing.

I do want to cut him some slack for this movie because I don't know. Okay. Yes. Well, we'll in a second. Tandy Newton's character makes that impossible to me. But, sorry, go ahead. But yes, the long version of this movie, I think, like, threads all those things together. And, like, in the end, like, what is this movie about?

I guess it's vaguely kind of about homophobia in the media and like in relation to star image because like who is the mold for John F. Donovan? Is it because he dies mysteriously and like we're not, we're led to believe it could possibly be a suicide, but like is it? It remains a mystery. I don't think it's based on, it doesn't feel to me like it's based on any particular, uh, real-life antecedent. Right. But it's like the idea of a person or a certain level of star. Like, is it River Phoenix? Is it right? Yeah. Or like any of the like rumored. So like

this TV show that he's on. You're right. Absolute CW vibes. It's called Hellsome High. It's the absolute most thing I'm most fascinated with in this movie for sure. I wanted to like pause every frame of when we got that show just to like parse it out. There's one

point. So, like, he's, like, a teen, first of all, and that's kind of, like, perfect. He's, like, Kid Harrington is obviously not a teen, but, like, that's the level of 20-something that will be playing a teen. He's playing a teen who has supernatural powers, and he's, like, among, like, a group of people, a group of classmates or whatever, that, like, either they all have supernatural powers. At one point, Tromblay, when he's watching the show, watching the season premiere of the show, and, like, fucking freaking out about it. And he's like, he has a new power, yes. So, like, clearly, like, there are powers. Um, there's a scene that they're filming, that you see him filming on set with Sarah Gatton. Gadden Gadden, I never, like, genuinely

have no idea. Canadian queen. Um, where she's wearing, she's working at it, as, she's a diner waitress, and she's wearing this sort of, like, teal uniform. And I'm like, that's exactly the uniform that Shari Appel be wears in Roswell. So, like, it was giving me very Roswell vibes. But you're right, in that, like, the next generation of WB shows after, like, Vampire Diaries era, but it, like, feels very much like a Roswell show. So, like, but he's a bigger star than, like, a Jason Bayer on Roswell ever was. He's a bigger star than, like, Ian Summerhalder, even on Vampire Diaries was. He's at the level of, like, a Vanderbeek or a Joshua Jackson.

And, like, even kind of bigger than that, because he's up for a superhero role. So, like, clearly, like, he is the breakout star of this show. So, like, I was fascinated with kind of the Hollywood economics of that, which seem I would have liked to have maybe even gotten into a little bit more of that because, like, that was kind of, you know, fascinating to me. I would love just got, like, a behind-the-scenes drama about, like, the goings on at a WB show, which would have been amazing. Okay, here's the other thing.

I mentioned a couple weeks ago, and I backed off very quickly, when I mentioned that there was part of the aesthetic of running with scissors that made me feel like Ryan Murphy was doing a Todd Haynes movie. At the very least, you have to admit to me that death and life of John F. Donovan made you think of Velvet Goldmine once or twice. The structure of it sure. Yeah. And I know that Velvet Goldmine isn't itself borrowing from the structure of like a citizen cane or something like that, right? Like the idea of a story being told via a reporter seeking out the story of this, you know, famous figure. Like, that is not exclusive or new to Velvet Goldmine.

But this idea that, like, it was this queer kid who grew up idolizing this figure and this figure helped him, like, find, figure out some things about himself and that also they have this, like, personal connection that nobody believes. That is all Velvet Goldmine to me. Like, I kept thinking of it for sure, except obviously Velvet Goldmine is a masterpiece. and this is not, but yeah, no. I mean, there's also a certain level of the Tromblay-Portman duality, which is never not crazy.

Like, I can never, when they are not screen together, wrap my brain around Natalie Portman and Jacob Trombly screaming at each other in a Zavia Dilan movie. I don't know how it happened. I hate that the last few weeks I've seen my two least favorite Natalie Portman. apartment performances of all time after Goya's ghosts and now this. I don't think she's good in this. How many portments are we at now? Is this four? Four? Four? I just added this to our little spreadsheet today. It's our fourth portment and it's our fourth Sarandon. So, and both of them, obviously, we're in anywhere but here. And obviously, Emily Hampshire is coming for their gig. She's going to, she's going to be the reigning queen of the show. Two with a bullet. It is our first Tandy Newton and our first Kathy Bates. So I hope that it's our first. Kathy Bates. Wild that it's our first to Kathy Bade. But yeah, so we can celebrate that.

But their relationship, like, there's a certain level of all of Delaun's movies that it is, like, family members screaming at each other. Yes. In a way that has been prescribed by his critics as autobiographical, and

he has rebutted that to some extent. But this one really feels like, because the Jacob Trombly character would be roughly around the same age group, especially if you're talking about like Roswell, Dawson's Creek, or like those type of old school WB shows that John F. Donovan's show looks exactly like. There's that scene. It's really to the point where I feel like, is this movie trolling his critics?

Like, is he almost daring you to pull out the same complaints about his other movies? And then he wants to pull out the rug and say, oh, no, but it is about this. It is about your shallowness. It's about you not taking those things seriously. Right. Okay. Two things. Okay.

Go into that, and then I will loop it around to Tandy Newton. Okay. Yes. All right. Two things. One of which is, my other thing about this being a WB show is, it made me think of Buffy, but not in the showness of it. Like, Buffy is also a show about high schoolers with supernatural powers, right? In the stundum of it.

Yes. So the scene where Jacob Trombly comes home. And screaming at the TV, it's like, go off queen. I understand what that feels like. This is the thing. And he externalizes. And it's kind of, as many of, unfortunately, Trombly scenes are in this movie, kind of embarrassing, the way he's, like, literally just, like, screaming incoherently.

But, like, it's an externalization of what I feel like the internal feelings of a lot of young queer kids watching, I think specifically Buffy back then. Or like whatever, I guess it's like whatever, you know, supernatural WB show you were into. But like, I've heard, I've talked to fellow Buffy fans a lot about this. And it's, you know, you're this young queer kid and this show you are absolutely obsessed with. And the idea of like, he at one point mentions, it's like the season premiere. And so he's watching the new credits. And it's just like, it's new opening credits. And he's so fucking psyched for it. And I'm just like, oh, yeah, I've had that internal monologue about the new season of Buffy and what are we going

to see in the new season credits. And he's like, he's got a new power. That's when he says he's got a new power. It's in the new opening credits to the show. So like, that to me felt, and that's the Xavier Dilan that I love, which is he does, in his movies, he's able to oftentimes make these little connections to like, oh, yeah, that is. Like, that's really real. That's sort of this pop-infused MTV, as you mentioned, sort of hyper-modern, but, like, very acutely observed things about growing up queer. And, like, that was really well done, even though that scene I do think is a cringe because it's just like, it is, again, just like Jacob Trump, like, screaming incoherently.

But it's a cringe because it's just, like, there's not really, like, depth to it or it's not presented in an interesting way because I'm with you. I think that idea is interesting and doesn't really get explored in movies. But I don't know. Just because you put a cheeseburger on the table doesn't make it a tasty cheeseburger, you know?

No, I don't disagree with that statement. The other thing I wanted to mention is Dolan talked about at the can, I'm doing the same thing that you are, is assuming that this was canned because all of his shit is can. And didn't like Tiff like not, program his movies for like of the longest

time. Wasn't that like a whole like, I feel like he was... I don't know if that was a thing. I feel like I might be conflating it with a can thing that Cannes had been relegating him to like off of the main competition for well. Mommy was the first one that was in competition. Tom at the Farm went to Venice, but I don't know if there was drama there. I really liked Tom at the Farm. That's the Dolan movie

that nobody talks about. Tom at the Farm is a good one. And I really like that movie. Anyway, before the thing screened at Tiff, He actually, Dolan spoke, and he actually, like, had with him this fan letter that he had written to Leonardo DiCaprio at age eight. And so I think not only by that, like, being the case, but that him talking about that so much, it makes it impossible to not read this movie as at least partially autobiographical, right? Like, obviously, the events didn't happen, but, like, there's obviously a lot of himself in the setup, in this conceit that this, like, little kid wrote this fan letter. maybe this is a, you know, what if kind of Fantasia about like what if this superstar had maintained correspondence with him or whatever. And I think you're right.

And I think that's what then makes, if we're supposed to see this Jacob Tromblay character who grows up to be the Ben Shetzer character as a avatar for Zavia Dolan, then that scene at the diner that you're about to talk about with Tandy Newton becomes especially gross. Embarrassing, I would say. It's my major problem with the movie. It makes it feel like this movie is a troll

on his critics where it's like you know, he wants to rub their nose and shit. But at the same time, that's why I think the timeline of this movie is so important. Maybe this was repurposed or rewritten after the can reception of, it's only

the end of the world. But like, Tandy Newton literally really says at one point with like a sigh in her voice that she'd like just got back from covering war in the Middle East. Yes. And then Ben Schnitzer goes into this whole diatribe against her of like, well, basically amounting to yeah, well, homophobia is just as bad. Like, why can't this also be bad?

Like, okay. Yes, it is true that multiple things can be bad at the same time. But the way that it's positioned in this movie is so gross. Like, she is supposed to be insensitive, uncultured, out of touch because she's calling something trite in the way that Zavia Dillon's critics have called some of his work trite. It's the movie arguing for the nobility of its own navel-gazing in a way that feels like, real time defensive. It's like you're watching a movie become defensive in real time. And A, I don't think it needs it. It's always not even go there to this movie is shallow without that scene.

I mean, I think I probably would have. It's just pointing out its own shallowness. It is, it's definitely pointing out its own shallowness for sure. But like, it's very, it's cynical, that scene where it's like, you assume where I am with this because maybe it's possible that I wouldn't feel that way. It's one of my least favorite tropes anyway, which is putting a critic in your own movie to then inoculate yourself against critics. We've seen it in good movies like Ratatouille. We've seen it in bad movies like Lady in the Water. We've seen it in movies. I think you cut out the critic's of Lady in the Water and it's an infinitely better movie.

Sure, but I think that, but I do feel like that scene is very important to the message of that movie. And we've seen it in movies that some people like and some people hate like Birdman. And in this movie, it just comes across as especially transparent. And I think of, there's that scene at the very end where Ben Schnitzer, who I love, I do love Bench-Netzer, and we'll talk about that in a second, leaves the diner and hops on the back of his motorcycle with his like absolute smoke show of a boyfriend. And I was just as bittersweet symphony fucking plays. As bitter sweet symphony plays, I do want to talk about the soundtrack too. As bitter sweet symphony plays, we're going to, we're going to go into

we're going to argue about it. We're going to fight. We're going to fight. We're going to fight. about it. It's fine. But then Tandy Newton sort of like gazing beatifically outside the diner window and like giving them that like nod of approval that just like, yes. You're, you know, the fact that you grew up to have a boyfriend that is super hot is like an accomplishment that I, that is worthy of my recognition. And yeah, Bitter Sweet Symphony is a wildly cliched choice. So much of the soundtrack choices in this movie, how did they afford them? Well, the songs are like chart topping hits. But like from a decade prior, like they're all like, I guess rolling in the deep.

at that point was still probably a good five years old. It feels like a troll because it's like, oh, this is the music you grow up with, right? Because like, Kiss Me is playing in the background of a song. Oh, I missed that. It's a Green Day song. You get pink, don't let me get me, which is one of the most underrated pink songs. I really love that song. A fantastic song, but like, here's the issue unless you are really, really smart and intentional

in the inclusion of like why you are doing those songs, because like, These huge songs are so incidental to the movie. Like, and like, if you are intentional, don't be cringy. Oh, definitely not. But it's like, you're talking about huge songs that most of your audience is already going to have a personal relationship with. That is like, you can't, I don't know, like, aside from the cringiness, it's like, don't let me get me. Like, I remember being a gay teenager and, like, I have a relationship with that song. So, like, if you put it in, like, the background of a taxi scene, I'm going to be taken out of the movie.

Well, or the fact that, like, Bitter Sweet Symphony, to me, that song belongs to Cruel Intentions. And you can't have it. Well, used popular song. Right. Yeah. Cruel Intentions is a movie that uses popular song. I remember describing the standby me sequence to friend and former guest Nick Davis and watching the light go out in his size.

That's a bad thing. Okay, so here's one thing I thought was fascinating is I read an interview with Dolan around the time that this movie comes out. And he mentioned that he wanted to use this movie to pay homage to what he termed as 90s family drama. And then he lists like six movies and most of them are comedies. But he said he had references in this movie to Home Alone, Mrs. Doubtfire, Jumongi, Stepmom, Titanic.

The Little Princess and Batman Returns. I get that half of this movie is on the cutting room floor, so maybe all of those references are there. The only reference that when I was reading that list of movies that I could think of in the movie is the Florence Welch song where Portman and Trombly run to each other and embrace, and she sort of like crouches down, which did remind me of the scene at the end of Home Alone, where Kevin and his mom embrace in the foyer of that movie. I suppose, like, Tromblay screaming is basically McCauley Calkin running around a house and screaming. I guess. Oh, God, that scene where Tromblay basically dresses down his mother, like Natalie Portman, and talks about her, like, failed ambitions, and it's so overworded and it's so overly verbose. And Tromblay can't do it.

Like, I feel bad for him, but, like, he doesn't have it in him to pull this off. And, like, what child would? Like, what child is worldly enough to... Yeah, nobody talks like that. to nail this, but like, oh, it's so embarrassing. Maybe if the character was like 16. But like that... And watched nothing but Kevin Williamson product.

I guess, but like even that, like, there's a difference between having all of that dialogue swirling in your head to being able to like express it in a way. But like, do any of those references hit to you at all? Like, is that not the wildest list of, I don't understand how he made, like, if he said This movie is about my relationship to those movies. I would absolutely get it. He says, these are the films I wanted to pay homage to. And he says they're all referenced in this film.

I don't see it. I don't. I don't know. There is the scene where Kathy Bates runs into a stampede of rhinoceroses, which does remind me a little bit of Jumanji, but other than that. That scene was good. I thought Kathy Bates' monologue was really good.

I thought, I wanted to see more of her character after that scene. We love Kathy. Kathy's great when she's not in Richard Jewell. It's a great cast. We didn't talk about the two most upsetting music cues in this movie, though. Worse than the Stand By Me scene. I am going to make a defense of the lifehouse scene and you're going to lose all respect for me. But I'm going to do it.

Oh, boy. Okay. Well, then let's get into that first. Okay. Kid Harrington doing hanging by a moment in a bathtub. while his bro is there, and then it goes into slow motion while Susan Ferrand and his mom.

He stares longingly at him, still jamming out to hanging by a moment. This is what I was talking about when I said that I appreciate Xavier Dilan's sort of daring sincerity is he risks, that's a risky scene. He risks looking fucking lame as hell in that scene by bringing, because he, like, he's not so out of touch that he thinks Lifehouse is cool in 2017.

Like, he's just not. He does not think that. But he, like, to me, that song evokes a very specific era for me, which is, like, me being in college. But, like, I absolutely believe, because a lot of times these filmmakers, it reminds me of those Twitter prompts where it was, just like what song do you remember from like this is this and everybody unfailingly puts like the most perfectly manicured like not too popular but not too uncool like exactly the kind of song cynical way to look at people's choices i'm sorry i think it's true um not that i haven't done it also in the past but like yeah i do think that and i do think you get that way with you know

filmmakers too. It's like people choose their songs so specifically and I do feel like there is some kind of value in a filmmaker being like this song choice is fully not cool but it's what these

characters would have been into when they were young and bonded to each other and this song does make sense of that as something that would be like a touchstone point for them and like it's dorky as fuck and it is fully bizarre that it's happening in the bathtub where like he's in this like bubble bath.

And they're all smoking pot, him and his brother and his mom. And the two brothers start singing. And it's definitely super weird. And it definitely, but it's the only scene in that whole, all of those scenes of him with his family that I could picture what this family was. Yes. Do you know what I mean? I'm with you on all of the points. you are making my problems with the scene is a it's a it's a a a sentiment a moment that mommy has already expressed a million times better yeah more effectively but i i i don't think it's that hanging by a moment is dorky i could probably unabashedly jam out to that silly song right now and have no bad feelings about it i think it's that it's too familiar and like we have our own relationships to that song that like you put it in a scene

like that and it is immediately distracting it's not that it's not cool it's that it's just such a ubiquitous song that like used in this way it's just very distracting see my counter to that though is i think any song that wouldn't that would be more obscure or like that wouldn't have, that wouldn't risk having any kind of popular attachments to the viewers in any number of ways. You put a Vertical Horizon song in the scene instead. But why would a Vertical Horizon song be any more or any less distracted? Like, I feel like I say Vertical Horizon and that's a deep cut, but like hanging by a moment isn't. I think both, I mean, unless you're doing like an album cut of a.

vertical horizon song or something, at which point I do feel like then that's too self-consciously trying to seem cooler than you are. I just, I don't, I guess I don't see it that way. I'm just saying like, it's a big ask for people to put aside their own relationships with like hugely popular music. But he does risk that with the wonder well seen in Mommy and it succeeds a lot better than this one, but it's the same principle to me. Like I don't see why one. Other than the fact that Oasis... Well, yeah. And Mommy also hasn't done it with 15 other songs before that scene.

Correct. But, like, I think it's the same principle of why the Wonderwall scene works in Mommy. And I think... I don't know. I think the difference is that, like, Oasis is a more respected band than Lifehouse is. Well, I was going to say I'm not trying to wade into the argument that I've said I disagree with, but, like, Wonderwall is cool. Wonderwall is still cool. Okay. Other than Lifehouse, we should talk about the other one, which is the opening credits, which don't happen until like 15 minutes into the movie, are set to rolling in the deep.

They sure are. Adela was supposed to be in this movie. It was supposed to make a cameo in this movie. Yeah. His buddy Adele, which, okay, here, this is going to launch me into my other theory about Dilan because I feel like I've shat on him more than I wanted to. I feel like I am actually a. a Dolan apologist Here's the thing about his aesthetic I think gets shit on because it is somewhat of a like

music video aesthetic Yeah And when the Adele hello video that he directed Shot in IMAX Which like That was the thing

That I was like Okay That was my eye roll When it was like I shot an Adele video in IMAX and it's like, put it in a theater, or I don't care. It's a perfect music video.

He's perfect for it. It's like, I wonder if he had started in music videos rather than, like, revered can-selected cinema. I think, because, like, we've talked about this on previous episodes. Directors who start in music videos and then go on to movies get a certain level of, of respect, at least maybe if not at first, eventually. And it's like he's worked in the opposite direction and I feel like

he could still give us some banger music videos. The problem is music videos barely exist anymore. Like except for those like very top of the line, again you've got to be making an IMAX movie for Adele to make it happen. Otherwise

like music video is not a thing the way it was for David Fincher or Jonathan Glazer or these, you know, directors who cut their teeth on that kind of stuff. Unfortunately, too bad. Music videos are... Spike Jones. Yeah. God, I loved that era, though, of, like, superstar music video directors.

And the best is, I can still sort of blow people's minds and tell them that, like, David Fincher directed the Vogue video, and everybody, like, fucking flips out. Mm-hmm. It's great. Yeah. But it's a certain sentiment that it seems is absolutely right for his talents in a way that, like, if you don't tell me that it's shot on an IMAX camera when it's just about, I mean, like, nothing wrong with the IMAX format with Adele's face. I would watch it in an IMAX theater and see her giant, a giant screen of just her face. Of course I'd watch that.

But like, it's a level of pretension that. I don't mind the pretension, I guess. I mind the sort of, I guess I mind the braddiness, I don't mind the pretension. Like, ultimately, like, you know, these film directors are like that. And part of the reason, like, you can't make a movie like Mommy if you're not at least a little bit of that kind of person. And I mean, I don't think you can make a movie without being an asshole, period, on some level, because it takes that much control of an environment. which is not to excuse like bad behavior but like yeah there's a no not to excuse a bad behavior but self-centered sort of again pretension absolutely that's that's the point and it's again that's the

risk that's sort of what you risk as an artist to do that kind of stuff and like that's cool um what are i think zavia delan is one of those people that people conflate a bunch of different behaviors as the same thing simply because they don't like him because there's the pretension the bradiness and then the indulgence, which are all three different things that he has in spades. But, like, I think a lot of the critics take umbrage with the indulgence, and that drives me crazy. Because when you go to the movies, I want to see indulgent shit. I don't want to, like, I want it to be good. I want it to not be pretentious.

But, like, indulgence gets you interview with a vampire. It gets you Moulon Rouge. Right. Why is indulgence a bad thing? when you're talking about movies. Gets you mother. It gets you mother. Yeah.

Gets you mommy. But they're always going to be a little bit divisive and like that's fine. What's interesting to me is like that Dolan has had this reputation since before he even got all that indulgent. Like it seems like he had this reputation from like, I killed my mother and heartbeats, both of which are at least like formally a lot more modest. than something like mommy. Like, Heartbeats is essentially just like a, it's not mumblecore, but it's sort of like it's an indie dromedy, right?

Indy drama, indie romantic sort of drama. Yeah, queer drama. Right, exactly. It's like, if we had queer dramas like that in the 90s, we'd be like, you know, so much better off today. But it's also a certain thing of, like, we don't have a lot of filmmakers his age because when he shot his first movie,

he was like 18 years old, right? Yeah. It's like, imagine what we would be like, given the platform that he's had when we were at that age. We'd probably also be insufferable, too. He also works very quickly. Like, he's made so many movies in his 20s

and so many, like, really ambitious movies. The ambition sort of, like, was it a real steep incline? And, yeah, Which is the, Matthias and Maxime is a little bit of like a return to that's like sort of like older, more modest heartbeats era kind of form for him. And it's good. I don't think it's great. I do feel like what I want out of him is something that is more audacious than that.

But did you see it? I thought it was fine. Yeah. I thought it was good. I thought it was certainly it feels like, you know, coming back to home base after a big swing and a failure like John F. Donovan.

Yeah. But I do hope he starts to, like, claw back towards something. I hope that like the failure of John F. Donovan doesn't keep him from trying to make something big like that again. Just, you know, he'll have learned, I feel like he's one of... There's a reason some filmmakers don't make as many movies as he has

because he needs the time to, like, really gestate his projects and decide the kind of stories he wants to make because, like, John F. Donovan is... It's not about any one thing. It's just kind of this, like, phantasmagoria that I'm like, maybe a four-hour version would have felt complete... Right.

...to get all of it in there or tie some things together. But, like, I don't know. it still feels like he's figuring out the type of stories he wants to tell and, I mean, my answer to that is you don't have to make that many movies. Sure, but also, like, you know, no skin off my ass if he makes

a movie I don't like and wants to keep, you know what it? It's like, sure, sure, sure, sure. Keep making movies, keep making movies and, you know. And, like, he can do this because, like, he was a child actor, and, like, he especially had a long career of doing, uh, dubbed voiceover works. Like,

he's famously the French, uh, Ron Wiesley, I believe. That's right. I forgot about that. Yeah. Well, I mentioned to the, he wanted Adele to make a cameo on this movie. Jessica Chastain fully, like, filmed an entire role that wasn't in this.

And then the other change for this movie in the production phase was it was supposed to be Nicholas Holt in the grown-up Jacob Trombly role. And it was recast as Bench-Netzer, which to me, I feel, for whatever reason, and I like Nicholas Holt

a lot, but he's, because he's in the X-Men movie and he dated Jennifer Lawrence and all this, that casting feels a little more stunty than, like, Bench Nutser's just a good actor. And if you haven't seen him in Pride, again, our highest recommendation

We have to hit our monthly quota of telling listeners to watch it. They should. They should watch it. He's also, what's his line in Snowden that was in all the trailers? Fuck. I am upset that you think that I watched Snowden. No, but it was in the trailers.

You've obviously seen the trailer. I'll eventually have to see this. Yeah, eventually. Isn't it something about just like... The whole kingdom, Snow White. Very merry, you and danger, girl. Sort of, but very sort of like conspiracy thriller or whatever. My favorite thing about Ben Schnitzer is that his father

is American soap opera star, Stephen Schnitzer, who was on My Favorite Soap as a Kid, Another World, and he played the like, like, incredibly like this cad of a of a lawyer I think he was perhaps anyway I loved it I loved another world so I will always have loyalty

to Ben Schnitzer because of that because he is a legacy as far as I'm concerned You know who I do think comes out unscaped in this movie Who? Miss Susan Okay yes

I love Susan Sarandon I will always love She's maybe the only character I buy in this movie Oh that's interesting Because I feel like those family scenes, with the exception of my favorite scene in the history of cinema, which is the lifehouse scene, they feel very cliched, wrote. Like that dinner table scene to me felt like 8 billion other, like, unhappy family. Oh, everyone else in that scene is terrible. Dinner table scenes.

I actually thought the guy who plays his brother, the Letterkenny guy, is pretty good in that. he's just sort of like, he is the, um, the dimmer light in a family where one of the children is like this big star and he's just like the deeply low key, uh, brother. I don't think the movie, again, I keep saying this with the exception of a lifehouse scene. I'm sorry, I'm a loser. Um, does a great job of fleshing out that family in too terribly specific detail. I just think that her scene specifically just the scenes of her and Kit Harrington. It feels like the movie's only level ground. It feels like a viable character. It feels like even just like the crumbs were given feel real. And like, I feel like I'm watching a person and not a construct that Dilan wants to yell at us about.

Yeah. No, I agree with that. There's a line reading she has where it's right towards the end where he says, can I stay tonight and she says well you can stay here for the rest of your life and it's that like

Sister Helen Prejean like beatific sort of beautiful mom like eternal mom stare back at him but it's also the good Dilan too that's like the type of thing that like he understands the intensity

of that and can make it cinematic he writes really interesting mother-son relationships which is why by, again, the Portman-Tromblay relationship being such a weak point of this movie is so disappointing. Yeah. But, anyway, what else did I want to talk about? I have, like, a bichillion notes for this.

A lot of them were about the CW show. It's hard not to have a bifilion notes for this movie with everything. Speaking of the music choices, that the theme song for the CW show was Blink 132's Adam song, which, like, makes no sense. But, like, it's also, like... I said Green Day earlier, but yeah, it is. is Blink 12. It's Blink 12. I was trying to think of what Green Day song happened that I missed, but yeah, that would make sense. Michael Gambon fully has a scene where he's probably maybe a ghost, and he gives a Dumbledore monologue to Kit Harrington. To a stranger, Michael Gambon is

absolutely the worst thing about this movie. Like, you cut out Jessica Chastain as a villain, and you kept Michael Gambon as like. Ghost Dumbledore. from the tube scene in the last Harry Potter. What? Yeah, it's weird. That's the new manic Pixie Dream Girl, magical scarved, homosexual stranger. We haven't talked about Kit Harrington,

and I'm sort of bracing for your eviseration of his performance. We do have to talk about Kit Harrington, because if we don't talk about the one Game of Thrones person in this movie, the listeners will be very angry that we didn't talk about it. My opinion about Kit Harrington in this movie is the same about my opinion of Kit Harrington in Game of Thrones. I have no opinion. I have never watched Game of Thrones. It does not seem like my vibe. I don't, uh, I don't know, man. Game of Thrones is good. I think he's fine in this movie. Game of Thrones is good. I think Kit Harrington is fine in this

movie. I think he's, he's kept at, that character is kept at too much of an arm's length emotionally to have as many scenes as he does. Like if we're supposed to make him super, you know, mysterious, then he shouldn't be in this movie as much. Like, we should see less of him. And if we're going to see as much as we do with him... Go ahead. No, you're right. I think it's also, if it's asking

for him to be, like... I mean, you mentioned Delon has a letter he wrote to Leonardo DiCaprio, and I know that some people might have their knives out for me for saying this, but like he has to be DiCaprio level hot. I'm sorry. He's just not hot enough for, like,

what... I disagree. The type of star persona that he's supposed to be having. I think he's hot enough. I think he's not charismatic enough as a TV star. Yeah, like, I think it asks for like a James Dean level screen persona of like charisma, charisma, mystery, hotness. Yes and no. Okay, so because I think if you make this movie a certain way, you can you can make it be

about how the person in the Jacob Trombly role puts all of this onto this guy, right? It's not like all these C.W. stars that have these shows are Leonardo DiCaprio level charismatic. Like, that's rare. But we're fans of these people when we're young, and we put, you know, a lot onto Jason Baer or Joshua Jackson or James Marsters. or, like, any of these, you know, Tom Welling, all of these guys who, like, you're super into these shows when you're younger and you have all this obsession. And then as adults, you're just like, people are really into, like, I get, I do get the Ian Summerhalder thing. People are really into the other Vampire Diaries, brother.

Like, but there are people who, like, will fucking flip out over that guy. Or, like, you know, again, you think, you know, Tom Welling, James Marsters, all these guys who just, like, they're not untalented and they're, you know, but like, there is no. way of seeing them the way that you see them when you are like an obsessed teenager or preteen or whatever putting all of your like roiling emotional whatever into these guys and if the movie was filmed in that way again where you get less of Harrington and you he's much more of an object because the movie does deny you these really key pieces like even the scenes with him and Chris Zilka who like I love that Chris Zilka is like um

universal language. He's like the type O positive, or whatever, type O negative, universal donor for gay crush object in movies where... Do you know what I mean? Where it's just like, it's him in, what's the Greg Iraqi movie that he's in? The End of the World movie, the Apocalypse movie, that they made a stars... Yes, Kaboom. Like that. What was the Stars show that they made that was, like, essentially the same as Kaboom?

Oh, God. I don't even remember. Anyway, but I feel like that's his vibe, right? We're like, anytime Chris Zilka shows up, he's just sort of just like, oh, what if, you know, he's this kind of like dream, you know, gay hunk character. Like a certain degree of sweaty, but never like too sweaty. Right, exactly. I don't know. I guess Kid Harrington isn't really even on like a skeet-ulrich level.

Like maybe if Jonathan- That is like a sland-jar. Wow. I disagree. I disagree, and I feel like I want to write Kit Harrington a letter of apology, just on your behalf, just because that is mean. Why? Skid Olrich was hot. Like, he was believable, like, it's... Do you go back, do you go back and watch Scream and just be like, Skid Allrich is hot? Or do you go back and watch Scream and be like, I can't believe I thought Skeed Allrich was hot?

I maybe think that I should have thought Skeed Olrich was hotter. Like, I just rewatch Scream if you didn't notice from my, like, off-the-chards levels of scream references this episode. Yeah, stab me. Stab me. Skied Allrich. Wow. Okay. Kit Harrington, the thing that people don't like about Kit Harrington I have found is the sort of the thing that I do like about him, whereas he as the perfect sort of like little pouty mouth sad boyness, where it's just like, yes, that's what he is. Like, we can't, that's what you put him on that show for.

That is, everybody wants him to be like. It doesn't do it for me. For me, I'm like, well, then have a juice box, darling. I don't know what to tell you. Oh, wow. I don't know. I feel like I want to wait about five years before anybody is allowed to talk about Game of Thrones again, and we have some sort of distance from that show, because right now

it is very fashionable to, like, shit all the way over that show. And as somebody who was incredibly resistant to that show for a while, and then I feel like I got convinced and won over by then all of the people who then immediately started, like, turning on that show and shitting on it. I'm just like, well, this doesn't seem quite fair. The moment that Game of Thrones could have hooked me, where I was like, oh, maybe I will try out this show was also at the time that, like, you had the pieces about the show that were like, why are we using rape as entertainment? So I was immediately put off by the show and never watched it. And then, like, I feel like I turned around and suddenly everybody watched the show in a way that

I was like, I need a break from this, so I can't watch it. Yeah, I get it. I'm like, I'm that way with certain shows, too, where it's just like, everybody shut up about this thing. Reminds me of like how I feel about Pokemon, where it's just like, stop liking Pokemon. Like, this is stupid. And I don't have any relationship to this, so I think it's stupid. And that's, oh, I feel about that.

So we are just to, we are at the exact age of being too old for Pokemon, though. That's like the very specific. Like, other side of the bridge for Pokemon. Yeah, that's true. All right. What else? What else do we want to talk about with this? I mean...

Oh, the other thing I wrote down, I'm just sort of perusing my notes, that cut scene with Jessica Chastain, where Kit Harrington takes to the conference room with a baseball bat, he's wearing a one ring to rule them all t-shirt, which I found deeply funny. And I don't think I can quite explain why. But, like, the specificity of that was very. Very funny to me. To loop back to the crazy song choice situation that Jessica Chastain scene that has since been yanked from YouTube and you can see why, it was a dance sequence set to a One Republic

song. What? Yeah. One Republic who also had a song in Mommy or was it just the trailer for Mommy? I can't remember. I think it was just the trailer for Mommy. I need to look up what this song was. I can hear it on the top of my head

I think it's till the love runs out Oh my god Is that the song But like yeah it was I will say the soundtrack tab For the Death and Life of John F Donovan On IMDB Is woefully underpopulated

Where all it has is Rolling in the Deep Bitter Sweet Symphony Stand by Me A Cat Power song called Silent Machine and I think some sort of

maybe electronic or instrumental song, but it doesn't have Lifehouse and it doesn't have pink and it doesn't have Blink 1282 and I need somebody who does the IMDB things to figure that shit out. It's so extreme that when I was watching that press screening I was like

is this temp music? Because I was like there's no way this will make final cut. But I also, when I was watching the press screening, I was like, this movie's going back into the editing room. I don't see this being a version that's released, and that's the version that's out there. Was it the version that released? Yeah. I mean, it sounds so masochistic to say I would like to see the four-hour cut of this, but, like, I would like to have technology advanced to a place where I can press a button and have already seen a four-hour cut of this so that I can, like, just know what.

what's in it and like call upon it in my memory banks, but not have to like sit through a four hour cut of this movie. But like I'm fascinated to find out like what else, or maybe just like here's somebody else who's seen the four hour cut of this movie, like explain to me what else is in it and what else it does. The DMs are open. Because again, I mentioned the like the relationship between John F. Donovan and this guy Will, the Chris Zilke character. And we see several scenes of them, but it all still seems incredibly vague, and I don't feel like they ever quite sell us on what this relationship means to him. Is he just sort of like reaching out into the void and grabbing at someone? Is there a real feeling there? You get that scene with him and

his brother, and you get the sense from his brother that, like, there's a new guy every, you know, few months where, you know, John is putting these feelings onto. And so is that just like, is that a John thing? But, like, there's, I think the fundamental problem of this movie is, again, we get so much of the John character, but we get so little of the internals of the John character. Like, so few of those scenes with him actually work to helping us figure out who he is. Yeah, we need some base level amount of detail in regards to, like, what is actually happening in his life. Or else just make him a mystery and make more of the movie about, you know, if not the Jacob Trombly character, then, you know, the Bench-Netzer version of that character. And make him, like, actually, like, do more of the Velvet Gold Mine thing, where have him talk to people from John's life, rather than, like, having this Tandy Newton character who exists to prop up the, you know, the existence of this movie that we're watching.

yeah way yeah it's too bad it's too bad like I don't I don't relish dumping all over Dilan and or or this movie

like I do the other thing is like when's what's he gonna have to do to build up enough goodwill to make another movie with an American cast like this again I mean probably go away for a while

and come back with another movie that's mommy level great and I get that like there's still some people that don't like that movie, but, like, that was the movie that put him on the path that, like, this is a director that could have a crossover, and, like, this is the movie we thought would be that crossover. I mean, like, there's so many examples of people who do that, like, right down to, you know, Alfonso Caron, in Uritu, that it's, like, it seems crazy now because of the reputation that Delon has, or at least the way we talk about him. but, like, he was one of those directors, and, like, I wonder if he'll, he does not seem optimistic about even getting movies funded at this point, but, like, Medeus and Maxine came out of nowhere and just, like, showed up in a can lineup, so I, I still think that he'll probably be making movies. I hope so. I'm rooting for him, and I know that sounds weird to, you know, talk about a person who doesn't seem all that sort of, like, you know,

out cuddly of a person. Well, and I think you and I are on the same wavelength of, like, we want him to do that well because, like, we are two people who really, really responded to the movie Mommy in a way that it's like you always, like, it does enough to make you always kind of interested or rude in that filmmaker. Yeah, I agree. I think the fact that he and Matthias and Maxime, he's back in his own movie again, is maybe not a direction I want for him.

Like, I feel like the more he can make his movies less about himself, which isn't to say that, like, Matias and Maxime is about him. But, like, the more he's in his movie and it makes it harder to separate the hymnness from the movie, I think the better. I'm more interested in that. I'd really like to see him direct a movie that is not his script. That would be very interesting. I think that would be very interesting. You know, because then it would become maybe, I'm sure he wouldn't just like direct whatever. He would direct a movie that he would connect with in a certain way.

Right, right. But it would maybe help dissociate his fascinations from like, or what we perceive as his fascinations from like the actual content he is. And I hate that word. But help him develop these signatures that are, that are less. narrative driven Do you know what I mean? That it doesn't have to Every movie doesn't have to have

This like fraught mother son relationship That these you know Signatures of his can be more stylistic And more formalist Because even Matias and Maxime has the whole Mother Son thing to it That I was like okay Yeah yes

I wanted to be sort of like gleefully Dumping on this movie But it's like it does It brings me no joy to not like this movie I think the things to most gleefully dump on are the song cues and the Michael Gambon scene. I mean, there is also, again, that Trombly-Portman argument scene should be watched because it's just breathtakingly ill-conceived and bad and badly performed. But again, but I mostly kind of like feel bad for Jacob Tromblay because that's sort of like going to be on his, I mean, it won't be on his real. but, like, people will see that and just remember him for it.

One thing I will say, and, like, I don't want to go into the full portment of all, portment of it all, because we did it just a few weeks ago. But the way that she kind of comes out of this movie entirely unscathed, I think speaks to how the tide has completely turned for her in that we respect her as an actress, even when she's making huge choices that, like, Yeah. The knives would have been out more for her when there was a less favorable opinion of her. Oh, really quickly.

I think you're totally right. And I think we put Natalie Portman star vehicles in a different box than we do Natalie Portman Ensemble things. And I think that's to her benefit because I think she does well in the star vehicles. And so, like, good for her. we've talked about this movie premiering at TIF in 2018 and I did create a small little game for you to play and I know we're like

we've been going for a bit but this will be sort of a shortened version of our what did I call? I had come up with a name for this game and now I've totally forgotten what I had said it's going to be but anyway the game where I give you three characters from other movies and you tell me what all those three actors were in together. One of the

these days, I'll remember the name that I gave for it. All of these movies... We came up with a good one, and I think... We did, and it's like, it's lost in our text chain. Anyway, I should have written it down. All of the answers to this movie will be films that played the 2018 Toronto Film Festival, so they're all very recent

and, you know, festivally. So, if you are ready, we'll play this game, and then we'll go right into the IMDB game, so we'll be games. Okay, let's do it. Games on games. All right, first one. King Henry the 4th, Carmelis, Soprano and Gene Meyerowitz. Okay, so it's Edie Falco and Elizabeth Marvell.

It is the Land of Steady Habits. Land of Steady Habits. King Henry IV is Ben Mendelssohn in The King. Land of Steady Habits, my least favorite Nicole Hollis in her movie? Yeah, same, unfortunately. Yeah. All right, next one. Tinkerbell, Danny O'Neill, and Johnny Cochran.

Tinkerbell is Hook for Julia Roberts, so I'm guessing it is Ben is back. See, this is the version of the game where you can, you can game the system because you have probably a very good memory of everything that was a TIF. Well, how can I forget Ben is back when it was the time that I almost actually ended your life? listeners in the theater I saw Ben is back with Joseph Reed fellow co-host friend enemy of the moment

I am describing he was a villain in the moment he as soon as Lucas has just shows up he leans over to me I'm thinking because like we don't really talk in the times we've seen movies

that it's going to be somewhat serious whatever he has to say neither am I and he as soon as Lucas has shows up whispers to me that's Ben. I did. And I literally had to stifle the impulse to slap you.

That was a good time. Yeah, Danny O'Neill, Lucas Hedges in Lady Bird, Johnny Cochran is Courtney B. Vance in American Crime Story, OJ. Simpson. Okay, next one. Daisy Buchanan, Robert Gray Smith, and Gerald Ford. Gerald, Daisy is Carrie Mulligan, Robert Gray, is Jake Gyllenhaal. This is wildlife. It's a wild life. It's a wildlife. It's a wild life kid. Yeah, Gerald Ford, I'm pretty sure it's like Bill Camp in, I want to say, Vice, maybe.

Sure. All right. That movie is so great, but that moment where Jake Gyllenhaal screams, boy, boy, boy, it's a wild life is absolutely bad. It's just bad. Everything else about that movie is great. I think I've told this story before. It's kind of, it's a dumb story if I've told it twice, but whatever. When we're sitting there, it's like the second movie. No, it was the first movie that year, right, that I saw at TIF. And I've got my little notebook, and it's pitch dark, and I'd written, you know, Wildlife on the top. And I had taken a little photo of it to, like, do my, like, first TIF movie of the year.

And I took it and I put it up on Instagram. And then the movie happens. Did you call it Wildfire? No, I called it Wildlife. But then the movie happens. and it's about wildfires and metaphorically you could, you know, call Carrie Mulligan's character, you know, wildfire character or whatever. And I'm like, is this movie called wildfire and I thought it was called wildlife?

Did I write that wrong? And I'm like, in the middle of this movie, and I'm like literally fretting. I'm like, do I look like an idiot on social media now because I said it was called wildlife? And this movie is clearly called wildfire because it's about fucking wildfires. And there's a metaphor about wildfires. And finally we got to that scene where he goes, it's a wild life. And I got so relieved. I was just like, oh, no.

I'm right. Thank God. Stupid. All right. Next one. Jay Gatsby, Ruth Fowler, and Renfield. That is, Jay Gatsby is Redford, Ruth Fowler. I'm positive is Sissy Spaceek and in the bedroom.

This is the old man in the gun. This is. You're right, Gatsby. Be and Ruth Fowler. Surprisingly lovely film. I really liked it. I really liked it. David Lowry's a very good director.

I like him a lot. Also a deeply just like cool and nice person from the one time I interviewed him. Any guesses on Renfield? It's, oh, I know this. It's fucking Tom Waits. Tom Waits from Bram Stoker's Dracula. All right. Next one is Elizabeth Swan, Fred.

caseley and petunia dursley um fred caseley is dominic west from who's fred casely my ex boyfriend chicago correct what was the third one petunia dursley oh um uh Fiona Shaw from Harry Potter correct Elizabeth Swan, I know that. But what is this movie with Fiona Shaw? Oh, I feel like this might be embarrassing. No, like Fiona Shaw is a minor character in this. This is one where you've really got to get it from the main... Elizabeth Swan.

Yes, the actress playing Elizabeth Swan. Right, and that actor is also one of those people that I conflate with like five other... Inscrutable actors. Dominic West? Yes. Yeah. Dugry Scott. Yes.

What if I said Elizabeth Bennett? Oh. So it's Kira Knightley. Yes. Did I see this movie at that Tiff? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe not.

I didn't see it until later. I didn't see it until I got it on a screener. Oh, no. It is Colette. It's Colette. Yes. Elizabeth Swan is. Kira Knightley's character in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

Yeah, I did not see that at that Tiff because it opened, like, right after. It did. Yes. All right. The next three characters are K, Queen Elizabeth II, and Ted Kennedy. Kay, Queen Elizabeth II, Ted Kennedy. Helen Mirren is Queen Elizabeth the second. K is definitely familiar, but what would

Helen Mirren have been at at that TIF. It was definitely something that I was like, I don't care to see this. What was the third name? Ted Kennedy. Ted Kennedy. How would that have been? Oh, is that the Chappaquitic movie?

Is it... God, what's his name? He's so good in Mudbound. Everybody's good in Mudbound. I'm not going to get it from him being with Helen Miran. I need to figure out who Kay is. Well, you also need to figure out who Queen Elizabeth II is because it's not Helen. Oh, it's not Helen Mirren? Okay.

Is it Olivia Coleman? No, it's Claire Foy. Is it First Man? It's First Man. Kay is, um, uh, fucking, whatever Ryan Gosling movie. It's Blade, uh, Blade Runner, 249. Oh, sure, sure, sure. that movie I don't like. That movie I love.

Next one. Clary Starling, Herb Stemple, and Polly Bleaker. Polly Bleaker is Michael Sarah, Clary Starling, is Jody Foster. What was the middle name? Herb Stemple. Cool.

Jody Foster in a movie that was at Tiff that clearly I don't remember what it was. We could we do it for this podcast? We could do this movie for this podcast, yes. Wow, what am I forgetting? Michael Sarah. Michael Sarah, who was also at that Tiff, maybe?

No, it was the Tiff before with Molly's game, where he plays not-so-veiled... Toby McGuire. Yeah, it was the year before for that. I would say maybe re-examine your rationales here. Is Jody Foster, like, not the lead of the movie? Or is she not the Clary Starling? No one else has played Clary Starling. Your silence.

Oh, Julianne Moore. Yep. Duh. Of course, I forgot our own episode for Hannibal. Yep. Okay, Julianne Moore and Michael Sarah. wasn't Suburbancon, which was maybe not that year.

Suburbancon was also 2017, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Okay, what was she at that year? I probably would have seen it if she was in a movie there. Oh, it's Gloria Bell. It's Gloria Bell. I was waiting for it. I was waiting for it.

Gloria Bell, which we saw behind one of the true ghouls of ghoulish Oscar blogger. Who is maybe the actual devil and we had an unspoken, unacknowledged thing that we were going to enjoy the fuck out of that movie and hopefully annoy that homophobe, fat fob, racist. We had a great time at that movie.

That's a great movie. Herb Stemple, of course, is John Tituro in Quiz Show. Oh. All right, two more. Novely Nation, Lemony Snicket, and Young Snow White. Well, Lemony Snicket is Jude Law, Young Snow White. I'm guessing is either Lily Collins or Kristen Stewart. What was the first name?

Noveli Nation. Ah, ha. Jude Law. Am I right on Jude Law? You're right on Jude Law. Right, okay. Jude Law, who is Fantastic in The Nest

Opposite the even more Fantastic Carrie Coon. Nice. I'm stalling, so I'm just plugging the nest. Oh, God. Okay, Jude Law, I'm going to guess that it's probably Lily Collins.

Think even younger Snow White. Even younger Snow White. Like, if the character is named Young Snow White in the cast. Young Snow White, right. I don't remember who that might have been? I didn't either, to be fair.

Okay. I thought you'd get Noveline Nation just right off the bat. I guess I didn't. Jude Lock's, Jude, Jude, what was he in at that Tiff? I don't know what Novelin Nation is. Imagine Novelin Nation having a conversation with Sister Husband.

Sister husband? Yes. So this person, is it a cult movie? No. We've talked about an actress we love an Amish movie.

He has a character named Sister Husband in a thing. Imagine that conversation taking place in a big box store. Like a notorious Walmart. Chain big box store. Yeah.

Target. No. right about the first time. Walmart. Oh, is it where the heart is? Is it Natalie Portman? It is.

Also Natalie Portman at this Tiff was Fox Lux. Fox Lux. Natalie Portman, Jude Law, the teeming of our generation. Yeah, young Snow White and Snow White and the Huntsman was played by Rafi Cassidy. Sure.

Crazily enough. All right. Last one. All for you. Caterine Vaubon, Carrie White and Patricia Whitmore. Okay, Patricia Whitmore sounds familiar. The first one doesn't.

Carrie White could actually be a couple of things. I'm going to guess that it is Chloe Grace Moretz. Is this, is this, my beloved, Isabelle O'Pair, Chloe, Grace Morettes. movie. Why is the, why is the name? Is it Greta? It's Greta. But I'm not, I love Greta. I'm not letting you get out of this without telling me who Caterine Vaubon is. Caterine Vaughan is I-Heart Huckabees. Is Isabelle Uper and IHeart Huckabees. And Patricia Whitmore, I was trying to, so much in vain to find a third name, it's Micah Monroe in the Independence Day sequel. Woof, justice for May Whitman. That makes you the first person to, mention the Independence Day sequel since it was in theaters. I know. That's true.

All right. Anything else about the death and life of John F. Donovan before we move on to the IMDB game? If any of our listeners were somehow in the industry and saw the four-hour cut, absolutely talk to us. I did write down one line of dialogue from that Jacob Tromblay outburst scene that I think is so bad, is he yells at Natalie Portman, and he says, And your small dreams and your smallness. Which just doesn't seem like you're small, Jacob Trombley. You are literally not tall. You are small, too small to be yelling at someone with that kind of vocabulary.

Yes. All right. Care to explain to our listeners what the IMTV game is. Okay, so we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress. to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue.

If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. I am hanging by a moment, Joseph, to see what you are going to challenge me with. All right, I am going to challenge you, since you've made it implicit that you would like to be challenged first. That is all good with me. I obviously went down the Xavier Dolan route. He is not only an writer-director, he's an actor as well. He has appeared

in a small handful of American films, one of which was the, I wish it had been better than it was film Bad Times at the El Royale. Oh, right. When he showed up taunting Cynthia Orivo

was when I fully lost all goodwill. I like that movie significantly less than most people. I didn't think people liked it to begin with. I think most people... I know a lot of people that think it's great. Really? I hate it.

Oh, I wanted it to be so good and it just wasn't... Cynthia's amazing. Cynthia's fantastic. Stop casting John Hammond movies. Okay. But somebody else who was in that movie was the great Jeff Bridges. So I'm going to have you give me Jeff Bridges as known for.

Papa Jeffrey. I'm going to say true grit. Uh, wrong. One strike. Damn. Uh, ooh. Okay. Well, I immediately thought that, like, no one watches Crazy Heart anymore, so his Oscar would not be in there. But I, true grit isn't in there, which I feel like True Grit has been in there for other people, but maybe I'm crazy.

I'm just going to say Crazy Heart to Hedge my bets. If I get my first two guesses wrong. I'm going to never resurface. Well, fear not, because Crazy Heart is one of them. Cool, good. Crazy Heart should not be one of them, I will say.

People's Oscars tend to, it's tough for those to miss, I feel like. Yeah, yeah. There was somebody recently. I forget who it was. Yeah. But it wasn't there. Anyway.

The dude, the dude's got to be there. Big Lobowski. Correct, the Big Lebowski. Awesome. He's in the MCU. I'm going to say Iron Man. Incorrect. Good guess, but incorrect.

So that's two strikes. Maybe the first Iron Man is just too old. People forget that Jeff Bridges is in that movie. I think both of those things are possible. All right. Your years for the two movies that you are missing are 2016 and 1984. Oh, wow. 2016, huh?

Oh god Is this a best picture nominee? Yes Do I hate this movie? Do you? You might. I like it. Is it Heller Highwater?

Yeah. I hate that movie. I really like that movie. I think it's good. I thought it was terrible. One more. 1984. Okay.

84. Is he like second build in this? No, I'm pretty sure he's first build in this. Okay, so it's not one of the weird thrillers like The Morning After. Is The Morning After a Thriller? It's like, I thought it was like a psychological thriller. They all kind of blur together with like, it's Jeff Bridges, a famous actress, and someone has died. Oh, it's all I knew about the morning after, yeah, it's a crime mystery romance.

All I knew about the morning after was that Jane Fonda got a nomination for it. I didn't even know it was a Sydney Lumet movie. I always assumed that it was a romance. Okay. You know, there's got to be one. There's got to be a morning after. That's true. How dare you?

Okay. So, yeah, not that movie. He's the lead. He is the lead. Hmm. Is it Tron? No. Although I bet you that was right around that time.

Let's see. Jeff Bridges. Tron. Tron's 82. Ah, okay. Jesus. Ugh. It's directed by a famous director working outside of his traditional genre.

In that it is a genre director doing a drama or the other way around. It's a genre director doing a drama slash some other genre that isn't quite his genre. It's like a lateral off. Oh, so it's like, I mean, at this era, it wouldn't be Spielberg. Spielberg was already, though I guess Spielberg was still pretty much doing genre movies. now. I'm pretty sure in 84, Spielberg is directing, is working on

E.T. The color purple. Isn't that like 87? Color purple is 85. E.T. is 82. Oh, never mind. Okay. So is one of these horror? Like, it's someone who normally does, like,

science fiction doing a horror movie. Other way around. Okay. Horror doing, science fiction Yeah But like science fiction Science fiction

Mashed with like another Like a sort of softer genre Oh like a sci-fi comedy Sort of Not really I just need to figure it out Like what science fiction movie Bridges was in Besides Trump

Is Besides Trump Is it a Starman? Man, a sci-fi... I've never seen Star Man. Sci-fi romance from director John Carpenter. Oh, see, I thought it was more of just like a straight science fiction. I didn't realize it was a romance.

Sci-fi romance with Jeff Bridges is an alien, and Karen Allen is the lady. Sure. Yeah. Sure, sure, sure. Good job. That's a very interesting known for, I think, for Jeff Bridges. That is not a known for that he deserves. Though I've never seen Starman.

Maybe I would love so. He got Oscar nominated for it. I'll say that. He did. He did. Okay, so for you, I also went down the Zavia Dilan route. I went to his first star-studded cast of It's Only the End of the World. Who did I pick?

I picked for you, Miss Leia Sadoo. I knew you were going to give me someone French. Okay. Leia Sadoo. Blue is the warmest color. Yes. The Grand Budapest Hotel. no oh boy here we go she has to be maybe one of the first people um in grand budapest who i have not seen show up on here

yeah okay all right um the lobster yes the lobster okay now i'm trying to remember if she's in the upcoming bond movie or was in the last bond movie And I think she's in the upcoming Bond movie. So that doesn't help me out at all. Or maybe she's in both. Is it worth just having a guess? What else do I know for sure that Leia Sidu is in? She's always like, ever since blues of the warmest color,

it's like, let's cast Leia Seidu as, like, the somewhat mysterious like semi-antagonist but her motives are shrouded or whatever yes we need someone to be mysterious in French yes wait is she in the Fifth Estate or am I

misremembering that movie let me look at clearly not one of her known for Fifth Estate which I we've done an episode on but I remember so little about it I remember nothing of the movie or the episode She's not I don't think she's in it

But it's not in her known for So I won't count it against you Okay I think you should But you know All right I don't count it against you Count it against me give me the years All right so your years are 2011 and 2015

Is she in Specter? She's in Spectre Fuck off She's the love interest of Spectre dude Is she also in the new one? Yes Okay I thought I saw her

I'm guessing she's gonna die First of all how dare you assume that I remember shit about Spector. Spector's terrible. A piece of crap movie. Spector's dreadful. Yeah, I'm guessing she's going to die at the beginning. Yeah, that seems, that's the, that's the Franca Potente corollary to that, right?

The Michelle Monaghan Corral, is she the Michelle Monaghan who gets kidnapped, or is she the Franca Potente who gets killed? That is the question at the beginning of No Time to Die. I think she's either going to get kidnapped and then get killed or she's just going to get killed out right She seems to be in a lot of the second trailer for No Time to Die, which we will not see for another six months at least I haven't seen the second trailer yet What happens to Ava Green in Casino Real? Does she die at the end of that or does she show up?

She dies at the end Right, and then he's like avenging her death for like the next two movies or whatever Right, right, right, right. Okay, 2011, so before blue is the warmest color? yeah great it is not french it is not french that's interesting takes place in france but it is not french 2011 movie not french but takes place in france is it a movie i've seen oh absolutely okay we've talked shit about this movie before interesting it's a movie that was like so beloved and i think i know definitely for me but for you even at the time like that

love was lost on us. Is she in the artist? No. That is very true for that movie, too. Yeah. All of those things, because it also takes place in France, right? Yes. Shot in America, though.

Right. Okay. This is a Best Picture nominee. From 2011. Yes. Hugo? No. Damn.

Well, you wouldn't be saying that I talk shit about it if it was about War Horse. yeah she plays um she doesn't play the horse but she plays the war she's the entire war wow she's so versatile it's the titular role okay so wait so 2011 now i've just got to go see how many of the 2011 oscar nominees so um artist war horse hugo money ball not in france descendants not in france is perhaps in the title. Oh, it's Midnight in Paris. I don't like that movie. It's not a good movie.

I don't know why people loved that movie at the time. There are three people who are good in that movie, maybe three and a half. Corey Stoll. Fantastic as Hemingway. I loved Tom Hiddleston and Allison Pill as the Fitzgeralds. And I'm interested in what Adrian Brody's throwing out there as Dolly. Dully! But other than that...

Kathy Bates is even a little fun in that movie. Who is she? She's Gertrude Stein, right? Yeah, something. Yeah. Yeah, the actual meat of that movie, all the periphery in that movie is fun. But the actual central part of that movie, poor Rachel McAdams, gets, of all the, like, hateful, Woody Allen female characters, like, that's, she's up there. Absolutely the most. Brutal.

All right, I'm glad I thank you for the heavy hints on that last one, but I would not have remembered Leia Sidu and Midnight in Paris at all. It's because she is on the fringe. of the movie, but she, I don't think, plays anyone fun. Like, she's not a cameo. She's not Carla Bruny or whatever the fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, fun, good times, a good time had by all. I hope Xavier Dilan makes another movie with American actors in English that is good.

That's what I want for him. Who do you want to see in his Zavia Dilan movie? Oh, that's a question. I mean, Jessica Chastain. for real now this time? Yeah, I think that's probably my answer. I feel like justice, justice demands that, yeah, I don't know. I feel like, I mean, I don't know, Tony Collette, you know what I mean?

Like, yeah, I kind of wish that he would, because like, he introduced us as American audiences to, like, And Orval, who's so incredible in Mommy that I'm like, I kind of want to see him work if he's going to work with American actresses again, someone who's, deserves their due, like, Elizabeth Marvell. Yes. Oh, my God, that'd be amazing. Rather than working with huge stars. Although, God, Elizabeth Marvel is always so interior and sort of, like, I don't know if I've ever seen her play that big, but, like, that'd be fun. That'd be interesting. I'm on this kick where I want Laura Linney to just work with the most, like, experimental

and cool directors possible, so, like, I always want Laura Linney when I have fantasy casting these days. Listen, we want the best for Laura Linney. Also, weirdly, Melissa McCarthy. Melissa McCarthy and a Delon movie. Well, I'm glad one of us had a weed brownie this morning. Shut up. All right, that's our episode.

If you want more that's at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find you in your stuff? You can find me hanging by a moment on Twitter.com at Chris V-File. That's F-E-I-L, also on letterboxed. Dot app.com under the same name. Dot app.com. My God.

I don't know. I had to make it fun. I had to figure it out. Yeah. You get it. You got it. You know. All right.

I am on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. I am also on letterboxed as Joe Reed, read-spelled R-E-I-D. I am hopefully still keeping up with my pledge to watch one. a scary movie every day for October because it's... Well, you got this one in there. Yes, exactly. Mark that one down. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and David Gonzalez and

Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever else you get podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So please break out your finest green felt pens and write us something nice, won't you? That's all for this week. hope you'll be back next week for more buzz.