This Had Oscar Buzz - 116 – 54

Episode Date: October 19, 2020

1998 was a brief moment in time of Studio 54 nostalgia, thanks in part to this week’s film. Starring Mike Myers chasing prestige in a dramatic role as clubowner Steve Rubell, 54 took an inside look at the notorious, celeb-packed New York City nightclub from the eyes of a fictional bartender played by Ryan Phillippe. But no … Continue reading "116 – 54"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada, Water. Did you ever hear about Steve Rubell? The guy was a genius.

He took this club in New York and turned it into the center of the universe. He comped the designers, the photographers, and the record people, and the models, actors, and rock stars followed right behind them. But the key to the magic was this. Steve controlled the door Right over there It didn't matter if you were a plumber or a supermodel Sorry, not with that shirt

I said not with that shirt Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast The Only Podcast hanging by a moment here with you, Susan Sarandon Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz We'll be talking about a different movie That Once Upon a Time had lofty Academy Award aspirations But for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we are here to perform the autopsy.

I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my favorite disco diva and penicillin mule, Joe Reed. If you could read my mind, Chris, while I was watching the film 54, what a tale my thoughts would tell. Oh, my goodness, I'm sure. We'll get into it. But we should say off the top, and I didn't even think about my opening joke until just now, how maybe that wouldn't have made sense to you. you, though I'm sure it's still there. We watched different versions of this movie. I did. And I don't think I realized.

I watched the theatrical, which I'd never seen, and I assume you have because you watched the director's cut. I saw the theatrical, but like a long time ago. And, yes, I watched the director's cut. And I don't think I realized until I started, like, reading up on all of the stuff. It's like, half of it is a different movie. Yeah. Not only does the director's cut add, like, 30 to 45 minutes worth of, um,

of new footage. It also took out all of the additional footage that was shot for the theatrical cut. So like, because like the time discrepancy between the two isn't that much. The director's cut doesn't end up being that much longer than the theatrical, but it's adds so much and it takes away a bunch. So it'll be an interesting discussion as we sort of like talk each other through what we saw and what we didn't. Like I assume that like... And I definitely want to go back and watch this. And I'm glad that we both watched a different version. Me too. Because that's also what we did for our Alexander episode where we had David Sims on and I'm pretty sure all three of us watched a different version of the movie. But I think what the, I think with Alexander, it was a

matter of do you have the shortcut, the cut that added some stuff, or the cut that added some more stuff. And I think that it was just a matter of more or more or more. Whereas this, it's just like more and less. So I think our movies both ended very differently. And my assumption is that like anything in the director's cut that had anything to do with like queerness on Shane's part was cut out. Which I do, because I like, I would have remembered that from watching 54 theatrically because one of my main objectives in watching the theatrical cut of 54 when I was 18 years old was watching as much of Ryan Philippi as I could.

Especially Ryan Philippi with a dude. See, and I would have really remembered that, and I sure didn't see it when I initially saw that movie. This movie does have, which I appreciate on several levels, but it has that what I sort of

term as the Mel Gibson and lethal weapon butt shot, where it's like no actual reason like story storyline-wise, for this shot of him, like, walking from the bed to the bathroom and just sort of just, like, seeing his butt. That is in the theatrical cut. It's definitely in the theatrical cut, because I do remember that.

In the hierarchy of Ryan Philippe's ass on screen, I definitely think it's the bottom-tier Ryan Philippe ass on screen. I don't think anybody had a sexual awakening to that shot of his butt like they did and say, I know what you did last summer. He doesn't show his butt and I know what you did last summer. Okay, we're going to, like, let's have this conversation now, because it's a very important conversation. He doesn't show his butt. No. I feel like that's just such a transformative scene for a lot of gay people that, like, there's so much projection. I think you've Mandela affected his butt into that movie.

What he, Ryan Philippi, okay, so here's how it goes. Ryan Philippi, God, this is going to be so pervy, but whatever. Ryan Philippi, as a thing. I think the audience can relate. Essentially happened with, I know what you did last summer. Like, that was sort of, like, the beginning of it. So Ryan, Philippian, I know who did last summer, is, like, iconic two sort of looks. One of which is, like, he's in a wife-beater for most of the movie.

And it's, like, and he also has, like, weirdly, like, a cast on his hand, I think, for a bunch of the movie. Like, the back half, he breaks his arm when I think the killer is trying to taunt him or something. Right, right. But then he's also, I think his death scene is a locker room scene, right? where it's just like Ryan Philippi in a towel and like his like perfect torso or whatever. And so that's... I maybe remember none of the specifics about this movie, just like the general... The only ones who survive, the only ones who survive the first one are Jennifer Love Hewitt and Freddie Prince Jr.

And then they're both back for the second one. And they think they both also survived the second one. The second one being the wildest shit. Not a good movie, but it does end with the dad from Gossip Girl turning out to be the villain whose name was Ben Hanson. and it turns out that he, or no, sorry, Will Benson. And it turns out that he is the son of Ben, the killer in the first one.

So he's just like, my name is Will Benson, Ben's son. Tell me why. Why, come on, Joel, think about it. You'll get it. Will Benson? Ben's son. That's the greatest thing ever. It is.

The mere concept of that movie, falls apart in the last half hour when they reveal all of the dumb shit that, like, you have to buy. That he engineered a radio contest win to get them to whatever, the Bahamas and murder them. It's so fantastic.

And that they never took a geography course. Right, because they got the question wrong. That was the whole thing, right? Yeah, they say Rio, right, when the question... What's the capital of Brazil? And they say Rio, and that's not right. Yeah, right, exactly. It's an indictment of American higher education and the fact that we let these children pass through school thinking they know shit when they don't.

Anyway, so after I know what you did last summer, then comes the great year of 1998 where Ryan Filpy is in both 54 and cruel intentions. I will take issue with the fact the butt shot in this movie is a good butt shot. He has a good butt. Like his butt's never done and not look good. Oh, it's not a bad one, but I'm just like, I'm saying no one. get to see it closer up. I think the beauty of the butt shot in cruel intentions is that it's, you see it from far enough away, because you're in, like, Reese Witherspoon's perspective, she's in the

pool, and he's sort of, like, over in the, like, changing area, and she can see him. Yeah, it's a cutaway, too, so it's a surprise, like. Yeah, it's a surprise, and I think because it's far away, you have to, like, constern. Like, you can passively watch the butt shot in 54 and just be like, it's a butt. You know, he's walking to the bathroom. It's a butt. You really have to want it to, like, to make the cruel intentions butt shot as miraculous as it is. And we all did want it.

So I feel like as a culture, we all came together and, no pun intended, and realized that that was a moment we were all going to hold on to, no pun intended. I feel like we need to just maybe have a side segment every episode where we both become Tina Belcher. but and just focus on butts Tina Belcher is the most relatable character in fiction and that is why yes so that was my the height of my interest in 54

in 1998 and as the years have passed now I'm like you were sort of fascinated by these stories of just like there's so much cut footage from 54 because like watching the theatrical cut it's like you get the fact that like, oh, there's homoeroticism going around here. So, like, the idea that there was this cut footage of, like, queer scenes doesn't surprise you.

Because it's just like, yeah, of course there is. Like, it seemed implausible that it wasn't in the movie to begin with. It's more, like, conventionally accepted disco culture of gayness that is, like, Truman Capote and Andy Warhol in the background, but not, like, dudes getting it on. Well, and it's part of the central issue with 54. movie that I don't fully hate, but, like, doesn't work the way it should. Yeah, I don't think it's terrible. It has a little bit of the Stonewall problem, although not to the extent that Stonewall does, but it does decide to take you into this world of, you know, disco and drugs and queerness and

celebrity and all this sort of stuff and make you, put you in the perspective of this white kid from Jersey who was like the most like mask version of this and like it's different stonewall it was telling this like you know queer poc drag queen trans people story through the most cisgender mask sort of iowa boy possible this at least the story of studio 54 while rooted absolutely in queerness and blackness and disco and all this sort of, you know, what was happening in that scene in New York at the time. The kind of miracle of Studio 54 was that it pulled in everybody that like the sort of floor show of Studio 54 was that it was like gay people and straight people and celebrities and normies and, you know,

it sort of hit the cross section of everything and that's what made it a phenomenon. So, But it still is a weird entry point into the movie. And, like, much as I do love Ryan Philippi and a lot of things, he's not the most charismatic person to follow through all of this. I think most of the central characters are not. Yeah, like, the character of Ryan Philipy is, he's more charismatic when he's playing a dick. And, like, it's, like, you're right about the Stonewall comparison, though it's, like, not as problematic of subject matter as, like, Stonewall explicit.

is to be doing this, but it's like, it's a very boring person's coming of age narrative in an interesting surrounding. And I don't think Ryan Philippi is that type of charismatic actor at this time to make that interesting. He would have been good in almost any of the other roles. Like, even in the Breckenmire role, although it would be tough to fit Ryan Philippi for being like, it would be tough to look at Ryan Philippi and just be like, yeah, no one's giving him the time of day, like they are with Breckenmeier, so, like, that I get, but

I mean, otherwise. Yeah, kind of made no sense in this role whatsoever. Like, he's, we're supposed to believe he's married to Salma Hayek, which, sure. But I think, I do think that's part of, I think that's a feature in that, like, yeah. Yeah, we're supposed to look at this couple and be like him with her a little bit, and because he has this sort of inferiority complex, but I do think, like, mostly I think Breckenmeier was cast because he's short. I think the character description was just like,

we want somebody too short to be a bartender, which I love that that too, that bartenders were essentially cast as the way you would cast models, which, you know, fair. And again, walk into many a gay bar these days, and it seems not too much has changed. But I definitely, like, especially the bartender thing,

like the ethos of bartender disco culture and like in disco club culture like was way more fascinating to me like I kept I was fine with this movie I don't think it's a disaster by any means but like I kept wanting it to be other movies

like I wanted the Magic Mike version of the 54 bartenders or I wanted the Steve Rebell character to like I want the Goodfell's version of his movie right yeah I think I don't think Mike Myers is

doing a bad job, but he's not asked to do, I don't think he's asked to do enough to give you enough different shades of Steve in this movie. Like, Steve is like zonked out on quailudes for 90% of this movie, right? Like, he's just heavy-lid and like barely coherent for like a good 85, 90% of this movie. And I think the performance that Myers is giving makes me wish that we had been able to see more of Steve, you know? and more of, you know, what he's doing. I don't necessarily, maybe don't necessarily want a Steve Rubell biopic, but, like, as biopics go, I, you know, I've had seen, you know,

heard of worse ideas. You kind of want the version of the 54 movie that is more of a crime movie, that, like, you do at least get a little bit more of him and his eccentricity and, like, the ways that he was gross and awful. What's weird is the 54 ends up being, too close to what the last days of disco is doing that same year, except the last days of disco is looking at the Studio 54 phenomenon from the perspective of it got taken over by, you know,

white yuppie types and this is how it ended. Like, this is why it died. And Studio 54 is not taking that perspective. Studio 54 just ends up, like, watering down this, you know, incredible moment in time into something that's less than what it was because it decides to filter it through this like handful of fairly uninteresting characters. Like God knows I love Salma Hayek, but like her character's not super interesting in this movie either.

Yeah, and she since said like, why did I take that movie? Yeah. I also think Last Days of Disco does the whole coming of age thing better too because like the death of disco culture is also very emblematic. in that movie of like the point in your life in your 20s where you basically become an adult and you say goodbye to your shitty friends and like yeah the other thing I was sort of struck by watching 54 now as opposed to watching 54 when I was 18 years old is so much and also watching the 54 behind the music which I also did over the weekend um about 54 nostalgia oh for sure um but so much of what was what people sort of breathlessly talk about in terms of the phenomenon

of Studio 54, and not all of it. Some of it was genuinely once in a lifetime never before would seen again, and mostly that is to do with the co-mingling of A-list celebrities with just like club kids and you know, people out

at the disco on a Saturday night or whatever. But all this stuff of just like the bartenders were in like short shorts and nothing. and else, and, you know, people were doing drugs and people were having sex and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, now that I've been to gay bars, that doesn't scandalize me, like, nearly as much. Like, the idea that, like, people would, like, duck off and, like, have sex in the back. I'm just like, well, yeah, the cock exists.

Like, that's sort of, you know, a thing. Or, like, you walk into any gay bar and you see how the bartenders are dressed and you're just like, oh, okay, yeah, like, I've been to boxers. Like, I get, like, that whole deal, too. like it's um and but it's but the point of it is that like allowing straight culture into that world like that's the combustible mix right where it's all of a sudden it's just like that fusion of all of it was I imagine like a huge I don't know like revelation or something like that I don't know do what I'm saying that oh I totally do that it's like the whole

the queer aspect is like diminished now for you as a viewer. I also think like, and this is maybe one of the flaws for the movie and it sounds shallow, but like it's one of the things that I think is genuinely missing from the movie that like is important if you're talking about

like the ethos of Studio 54, it's the celebrity element. Yes, yes. Who are the celebrities that they mentioned in this movie? movie. They mention... Grace Kelly, most prominently, because Grace Kelly is the, that's the person that Shane is sort of assigned to on that last New Year's Eve party. And also, they mention early on that both of his sisters were named after Grace Kelly because their mother idolized her so

much. But it's like you don't, it doesn't feel like at any minute Liza Minnelly could show up in this movie or Mick Jagger could show up in this movie. We see Truman Capone. Cody for a second. We see Andy Warhol. We see someone who I assume is supposed to be an analog for Halston, but I'm not fully sure that is a thing. But no, you're right. And it's so funny because I'm going through. There's no Grace Jones in this movie. No, that's wild that there's no, or at least like, that there's never a point where, like, somebody looks over in a corner and see somebody who looks a lot like Grace Jones. And it's not like you would have pissed off those celebrities because, like, As we'll get into, like, Studio 54 nostalgia was a thing in the late 90s, and everybody talked about it.

We all know who went and did drugs there. So I'm looking through the IMDB cast list for this movie, and there is a bazillion cameos from people who were from that era and also from people who weren't that I just didn't recognize. Cheryl Crow is in this movie. Cindy Crawford's in this movie. Heidi Clune. Veronica Webb, Frederique Vanderwale, Beverly Johnson, Peter Bogdanovich,

Art Garfunkel, Lorna Luffed. If you can watch the movie and not notice that they're there, I think that speaks hugely to how this movie gets like celebrity wrong. Yeah.

Oh, that was Mary McCormack as the wife who couldn't get in on New Year's Eve when her husband did. I thought so. Sorry, I'm just going through this cast list. But yeah, I think I think there are so many other perspectives.

Either this had to, like, okay, a coupled versions of this movie, I would like better. One, as I said, sort of like the Steve Rubel-centric one. Second, do, like, do the Nashville of Studio 54 and just do a huge, wide canvas of as many different characters and types of characters and little, like, subcultures that were going on in it as possible. I think that would have been a really fascinating way to do it. I think the Disco-Dotty-centric version of this movie also would have been kind of fascinating on, like, a smaller scale. Like, do the, like, hello, my name is Doris version of this, but it's Disco-Doddy.

See, I would make Disco-Dotty be the Her Smell version of this movie. Also that, I would absolutely do that. I think all of it, like, clearly, like, you're not going to be able to do the Nashville version of this with a writer-director Mark Christopher, who, his credits, did you look at his credits? Yeah. Nothing before or after this except for one of the, or a couple of them, actually, a couple segments from the boys' life movies, which if we have never heard of boys' life as a series, it was essentially like softcore twink porn that like had the sheen of like had the barest minimal, like just crossed the threshold of actual movie to be like consistent. considered, like, you would see it in, when I was on, like, Netflix, and I was, like, Netflix, um, DVD mailings, you would be able to get, like, boys' life movies there, and you couldn't get, like, legit porn there, but, like, it just crossed that threshold of being, like, uh, you know, not actual pornography, but it was softball porn. Or it's, like, the gay movies that you could get that were explicitly gay were also, like, I don't want to say pure aisle, but definitely. wanting you to think that there could be

a pornographic material. This one, Boy's Life was definitely like the smuddier one, but what was the other sort of more comedic hold on a second. I'm trying to think of the series of movies. Yes, thank you. I was going to have to look it up.

Yes, eating out was sort of Boy's Life, but with like nominally more plot and supposedly funny, but it like never was. I always refused. Sorry. You, well, you, okay.

Yes. I think by the time, though, that you were probably watching that stuff, you probably had a little bit more choice. I feel like we were so starved for choice back then. Like, there was just nothing to watch. I don't know. I don't know. I'm making excuses for myself. That was readily, like, available because so many, like, queer things got buried.

Yeah. Yeah. That was a moment in time. I should look that up and see who was in the Boys' Life movie. hold on one second because it was like you would get like um that like level of gay celebrity where it would be like um or eating out not in boys life um where it's just like you recognized some of the names in those movies like jim vararos is in the first one who was a contestant on the first season of american idol he was the one who like famously like simon cowl was super

mean to and like randy johnson almost or randy jackson almost fought him and that very early American Idol season. Who was in this? Ryan Carnes is in it, who was, he's on General Hospital now, but he was on Desperate Housewives as the boyfriend to the gay son on the one Desperate Housewives movie. Like, there was at least like some sort of name value, which I think that all got superseded when like Ryan Murphy started making television shows and casting that like cadre of gay celebrity where it was just like, Cheyenne Jackson, he's out.

Like, we're going to cast him in things. kind of stuff. We should also say Mark Christopher didn't make any more movies because he had such a bad experience making 54 and having the movie taken away from him. Fully taken away from him. Yeah, we'll definitely get into the test screenings and the Harvey Scissor Hands of It All and all that. But let's get into the plot description, shall we? Can we? Let's do. Yes. Build us up a little bit. Once again, we're here to talk about the movie 54 written and directed by Mark Christopher, starring Ryan Philippi. Mike Myers, we will definitely get into that.

Brecken Meyer, Salma Hayek, Nev Campbell, Seela Ward, Ellen Albertini Dow, we will absolutely get into that. Queen among queens. Heather Matarazzo, Skip Sudeth, Mark Ruffalo, a very Canadian tuxedoed.

Can I tell you the scream I let out when I saw Mark Ruffalo? I did not remember him being in this movie. We're wearing multiple Canadian tuxitos. Oh my God. And just like the most like, El Elmer's glue pasted on a mustache. It's wild.

I fully never... I thought you would show up later, Saan's mustache, like, in a Scooby-Doo reveal of, like... I was talking to my dad the other day about, you can count on me, because he was like, I saw this movie the other day with Laura Linney, and she has the brother. I'm like, you can count on me?

And he was just like, yeah. And it was like, that's my great dad compliment for a movie. It was just like, that was a weird movie. I'm like, yeah, and that's how you know it was a good. movie that you liked. But I think I even said, I was just like, before that movie, nobody had ever seen Mark Ruffalo in anything. And I totally thought that was true.

I totally thought I had never seen Mark Ruffalo in a movie before. You can count on me. I was wrong. It was this one. I also flipped out for Erica Alexander showing up. Love her. Oh, my God. Love her so much.

Again, I famously who hates sitcoms love Living Single. Oh, sure. Yeah, she's great on Living Single. show and I do not like sitcoms further proven by the new the final season of shit's creek showing up and we started watching it and I'm like I don't want to watch this um eric alexander also amazing in her one scene of get out oh my god I love that scene so much she's so she's so great in that oh my lord good call um but yeah 54 opened August 28th 1998 one week into the wire of its receipts that shot in

this summer. Indeed. Joseph, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description for the movie 54? Sure. All right. So your 60-second plot description of the aforementioned movie 54 starts now. Picture it, Jersey City, 1970-something. Ryan Philippi plays a sentient set of abs named Shane, and one night he and his friends

ditched their local trash New Jersey disco and traverse the river into New York City to try and get into the illustrious and trendy Studio 54. Club owner Steve Rubell refuses. Shane's friends but tells Shane you can get in if he takes a shirt off and for the good of all Shane does and thus enters the wonderland of sex and drugs and music and celebrity that is Studio 54. There he meets and befriends coat check girl

Anita and bus boy Greg who are married each with ambitions to become a famous pop star and a bartender respectively. Because he looks like Ryan Philippi, Shane ends up with a bartender job that Greg wants and is dubbed Shane 54 by his homerotic cohorts. Shane ends up becoming a boy toy

for a wealthy and influential woman played by Cila Ward and one wealthy man if you watch the director Scott He ends up photographed for magazines, gets way too full of himself, does too many drugs, gets the clap, tries to fucking need it, gets punched by Greg. Unsuccesses soapstar, Neff Campbell, watches the rap and granny die on the dance floor, and finally flees 54 for good, just as the feds raid the place for tax evasion and the disco era metaphorically dies. And that's time. Ooh. Okay, so how does the movie end in the director's cut? Because the theatrical cut ends with the reopening of Studio 54.

Right. And everybody has, except for Asama, whose hair is like, not like 80s Tina Turner, but like getting there. Getting there, yes. And then everyone else, Breckenmeyer and Ryan Philippi included, have their late 90s crunchy hair. Yeah, it's like they're fully modern at that point. They're like fully contemporary to 1998.

You can absolutely tell that they couldn't get back into the actual Studio 54 to shoot. So it's like a backdrop of curtains with a tight close up on Mike Myers as he delivered. delivers this sentimental monologue that I'm like, you shot this in, uh, uh, some random bar in Queens. The original film was shot in Toronto. Yes. Which is like, of course.

And then the reshoots, Queen Neckamble will get into it. Right. The reshoots were shot in New York. So yeah, the reshoots were definitely shot in wherever they, you know, wherever, whatever place they decided had, you know, tricked out to be Studio 54. And they were not. same place in the new one. Yeah, the director's cut. No, they shot in the Real Studio 54. Oh, did they actually? I don't think they knew it. Yeah, but you can tell that in the reshoots, they did not.

Yeah, yeah. In the director's cut, there's this, like, framing scene where the beginning scene is the end scene. The very first thing you see is Shane shirtless walking down on New Year's Eve on a cold New York City Street and has to, like, put on a garbage bag as a like shawl for warmth.

And then in the end scene, it's that same shot of him leaving after as the place is getting raided. And Greg finds him and he and Greg huddle together. And then Anita finds them and she's got this like big fabulous fur coat because she had just gotten pulled away by Seal Award to go meet with a record exec. So she then pulls the two of them in under her. It's a very like Ramona get in my fur moment as they like walk down the street, the three of them together, and that's the end of the movie.

That's definitely in the theatrical cut, and there's, like, a half hour left of the movie. That's what, yeah, so that, so the happy ending. Definitely a bunch of Neffle's stuff is in the reshoots, because she is barely in the movie. She's in two. Until very late. Yeah, she's in, like, two or three scenes in the director's cut entirely. You see her, like, across the room, and then he, much later, runs into her at the restaurant in New Jersey, where they, like, actually, like, have a,

conversation. He kisses her in the parking lot. Then the next time we see her, she shows up on New Year's Eve with the like Euro trashy guy who's hitting on Shane and wants him to come home with the two of them that later tonight. And Shane's all disillusioned by bisexuality or whatever. And then at the very, very end, as they're walking down the street in their Ramona fur, she passes by in the limo and offers Shane a ride and he turns her down. And that's the Okay, so he still, that still happens in the theatrical cut, but Anita's not there. It's just, yeah, Anita might not be there. I think, no, I do think Anita has shown up there by the end, by the time she rolls by.

But anyway, yeah. I was kind of for the first, like, hour and 15 minutes of the movie when Death Campbell was literally just a woman in newspapers and across the room, was thinking that it would be absolutely hilarious if that's all her performance is. when like she was all over the trailers and the poster for this movie and like she's the with credit Meyer was nowhere to be seen and he's maybe the second

second lead yeah yeah he's maybe the second lead of the movie yeah she gets the with credit it's with Neff Campbell and Mike Myers Mike Meyer's getting obviously the like glamour and credit right because like if we're talking about this movie in Oscar in any terms like it's Absolutely, Mike Myers.

He's the only reason why we're talking about this movie on this podcast is because they were definitely trying to position him for the comedic actor-go-serious Oscar slot in this one. It was interesting to me one last thing on Nev Campbell, because we really don't need to talk about her very much because it really isn't in it. She's not in the movie that much, though. I do want to talk about her in relation to, like, the... Okay. Before we move on, I will just say the Nev Campbell thing, when I was... not allowed to watch this movie as a child, but was, like, desperate, too. It's all because of Neff Campbell.

There are the gays who wanted to watch the movie because of Ryan Philippi's abs, and I was desperate for anything Neve Campbell. Imagine that, me, an American preteen, allowed to watch the scream movies where people are gutted, disemboweled, and brutalized, but I can't watch, you know, some people do some coke and kiss each other in 54. Well, that's why what I thought was so interesting about the casting of 54 is that it couldn't be, you would never have gotten this cast at any point except for this exact pinpoint moment in time, because it's the star of the scream franchise, which at this point there had been two of them in 96 and 97, the star of I know what you did last summer, or one of the stars of I know what you did last summer, the star of, or sorry, one of the stars of Clueless, Breckenmeyer. And then Salma Hayek, who had just made her breakthrough a couple years before, I can't remember when Desperato was. But, like, Dusk to Dawn was...

Desperado from Dust Till Dawn. And, like, so it was, like, 96, essentially, when, like, Salma Hayek made her breakthrough. And then she was in the faculty in, I want to save this same year, right? 98? God, I love the faculty. So, like, the era of teen horror, which is very dear to me, and I remember very vividly, was, well represented. And like between teen horror and the WB, which sort of like, that's a, you know, double helix that winds upon itself, both of those things essentially created an entire generation of movie stars that all got their chance to headline something or other at some point. No, it's a specific, you're talking about a specific era, but like I'm also like on the path of like, it's the only time you could ever have.

The Breakout Star of Scream, a breakout star of I Know What You Did Last Summer, and the star of Austin Powers. Right. Oh, yeah, absolutely. But that was also his moment, because, like, Austin Powers was the year before this, and Austin Powers was a real slow burn where it didn't really. Yeah, Austin Powers, like, was, I forget if it was, like, the top selling or the top rented VHS of that year. But, like, it was a bomb in theaters, but then home viewing is what made. Austin Powers, huge. Huge. Also, as I'm looking at this cast,

we want to shout out Skip Sudufe in this movie who plays Ryan Philippi's dad, who doesn't approve of the 54 lifestyle, because, you know, disapproving dads have to exist in these movies. Also played the cop in flawless. So it's,

he's really, like, running a streak with us of these New York City queer, queer adjacent roles in these movies that we're talking about. Gay disapprovers. Gay disapprovers. Well, he was, he ended up being, he came around in flawless, right?

That was the whole gag with him, right? Yeah, but he's still like saying, like, homophobic habits. Well, sure. But like, but the whole, that, but the whole gag of that character is that, like. He's very, what are you queer? Yeah, yes, but then he ends up being sort of part of that weird little, you know, hodgepodge family by the end.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. it's a real interesting cast i'll say that it is very true though that like this movie like the the prestige around it felt uh very close to also like teen culture and like pop culture obsessive like it wasn't trashy at the time though it's like i'm struggling to find a way to make it sound not trashy but like 54 nostalgia came through in a huge way, and I think it's largely thanks to VH1 and, like, eTrue Hollywood stories where, like, those were having a moment where it's, like, that's where pop culture people would go. All of a sudden, this year, Studio 54 was, like, at the forefront of conversation again.

And it was, and, like, yes, like, this was back when a decade nostalgia seemed to, to have its own distinct era. Like, I think nowadays we're in a very sort of instant nostalgia period. And, like, there is no one trend towards nostalgia that is anything as broad as back when, like, 70s nostalgia happened in the 90s or 80s nostalgia happened in the early aughts, like that kind of thing. And, but, like, this moment of 70s nostalgia was so incredibly apparent.

And, I mean, like, even, like, the aforementioned teen horror craze was, like, a revival of that kind of 70s Halloween, you know, babysitter in peril kind of Jamie Lee Curtis era, right? So, like, it was... While also being incredibly referential to it, like, scream is, like, what it is because it, like, references those movies so explicitly. Right. And, like, it marinates in its own nostalgia. Right. So 1998, 54 is in production. Witt Stillman's The Last Days of Disco gets like rushed to theaters to beat Studio 54 to market, which to me is crazy in only that it's crazy that there was a studio that had enough faith in a Whit Stillman movie to make money theatrically enough to rush it into theaters to beat a Miramax movie. Like it's because like it's like Last Days of Disco is by far the perfect movie. The most mainstream attention that a Witt Stillman movie ever got.

I know he got the Oscar nomination for Metropolitan for writing it. And I know that like, but like there were niche, there were sort of like niches where love and friendship and even damsels in distress got attention. But like last days of disco was the only time I ever saw with Stillman movie with a camera like a TV commercial advertising for it. Right. So it's a fantastic movie. It's a A plus movie. I love it so much. I watch it all the time.

I honestly wonder if there was some type of licensing battle between the two movies because I will say I was sitting through most of 54 and I was like, okay, when are we going to get a fucking Donna Summer song? When are we going to get like, I mean, it has a couple of the bangor disco songs, but I was like, the music in 54 kind of is lacking to me. Well, I started to sort of make note of, because I was like, oh, I'm going to like start making a list of all the different RuPaul's Drag Race Lipsink for Your Life songs that we hear in this. Because it was just like, because we got like sort of right on the back of each other, you make me feel mighty real, which was the iconic Bob the drag queen beating Derek Barry lip sync, which. But it's in the background for like two seconds.

It is, but it's like people doing cocaine to you make me feel mighty, mighty real. And then we get a snippet of Diana Ross. is the boss, which was, of course, All-Stars 3, Bibi Zahara-B-B-Ther-B-B-Ther-B-Tal to that one. But where was I going with this? Sorry, back up, back up. Oh, after that, I never, like, wrote down anything else because I never noticed too much other stuff.

Like, for a movie that, and there's, like, a big scene with, like, knock-on-wood where, um, who's the original knock-on-wood performer? Is it not a neat award, is it? I think it, no, I don't know. Anyway, it's somebody else, like, performing knock on wood. And do we get an I Will Survive scene in it? Or am I conflating that with the behind the music? I don't think we do.

Like, it's, you would, you would expect so much more music forwardness. You would expect, like, the 54 soundtrack to be, like, an essential, like, disco overview, right? And it's just, it falls short. And it's, it's telling that the most prominent soundtrack cut, from 54 is the if you could read my mind remake with stars on 54 which is so like this made for the movie

creation that is just like you have an entire era of disco songs like you do not need to like gin up this Gordon Lightfoot cover or whatever to it's just weird it's a weird choice I'd equated this movie so like distinctly with don't leave me this way because it was in like all of the advertising for the movie and it

like opens the movie, at least in the theatrical cut, but it's still only like 20 seconds of the song. It's like used as a hype song for the movie. I think Last Days of Disco does disco better. Yeah, it does. And Last Days of Disco's

sort of song selection is quirkier but in a way, what's the song that they do at the end when they're on is love train right when they're on the subway what a great scene ending perfect ending but yeah i think it's i think the the disappointment in the song choices in 54 is leads into just this idea that like you don't ever feel like you're experiencing what this phenomenon was you never feel you're quite like in it in a way that you should i feel like the closest thing you get to it is the disco's dotty stuff which is

Truly a club kit analog to Disco Sally, who was a septuagenarian, who, like, was at 54 every day. Did not die on the dance floor, though. So that was just for the movie. Although there was an anecdote, again, this is coming from the behind the music on Studio 54, one of the best behind the music there was, that somebody had tried to sneak into the club by crawling through the air ducts and got stuck and died, and whether that's one of those apocryphal stories that, you know, builds up as the legend of Studio 54 builds up or not, like, it's a wild story indeed. That would be crazy.

Yeah. It really was the greatest behind the music the whole time. Yeah, so 98, it's last days of disco, it's then 54, the movie comes out, but that same year is the heyday of VH1's behind the music. This was still in, like, I want to say, I think it premiered in 1997, right, behind the music. I don't think it premiered much earlier before that, because one of the very first ones, was the Fleetwood Mac behind the music

and that coincided with the dance and I know the dance was 1997 Well, the Fleetwood Mac one and the Studio 54 one are both like three hours long or like three episodes long Right? Am I remembering that incorrectly? I think you might be remembering it correctly

that Studio 54 one is just one episode but I think it's a two hour episode. It's definitely like it was definitely supersized. It was like the mega episodes. Yes. It's such I've watched it so many times and it's got some good, you know, talking heads to it. Grace Jones is there. They get a bunch of like the, you know, the people who were there, the busboys and doorman and bartenders and people

who worked there. They get Ian Schrager to talk. They get the federal prosecutor who prosecuted them. And in the most ingenious, like, Chef's Kiss decision possible, they get three guys who who had been rejected at the door at some point to get in, and they put them, like, three of them sitting together, and they're just captioned as three guys who didn't get in, and they're behind a velvet rope. Like, it's so funny. It's just really, really, that was that show.

That show was on point. Yeah. But, like, Grace Jones gets a talking heads, I think I said that. But there was this one Mark Morse. mother's ball anecdote where he talks about smoking what he thought was a joint and then started seeing like the the beams fall down and cutting into people and there's blood and carnage and it turned out he had taken a hit off of something laced with PCP and he was just fully hallucinating and there's some like really good anecdotes but also that was they also showed this

footage of after their liquor license had gotten pulled and They pulled out their lawyer to combat the city, and it was the infamous Roy Cohn was the lawyer for Steve Rubel and In Trigger. Roy Con went to Studio 54. Oh, yeah. Like, that's that line in Angels in America, the most notorious whatever, whatever it ever snort Coke at Studio 54. How often has the latex sheathed cock I put in my mouth been previously in the mouth of the most evil, twisted, vicious bastard ever to snort Coke at Studio 54? But there's like footage of like Roy Cohn talking to the press on behalf of Stephen Ian and defending them. And apparently he was just like an absolute shark about this.

And they ended up when they ended up getting raided by the IRS that one of the things they offered up to mitigate their charges was they offered up proof that at the time White House Chief of Staff for President Carter, Hamilton Jordan, was. at Studio 54 and was doing Coke at Studio 54, and because Roy Cohn was so embedded with the Reagan people, he told them that this is the guy to give up because he wanted it to be a scandal for the Carter administration, and it fully backfired and blew up in Stephen Ian's face, and they ended up getting no leniency for that, and ended up getting a for the time really long prison sentence for tax evasion. They ended up going to prison. They get sentenced for like two years in prison. Mm-hmm.

It's a great... I remember some of those type of details, and maybe this is also where I'm remembering like three full hours or three full episodes of it. I remember those details from the E-True Hollywood story of Studio 54, which came after the behind the music. After, but not too far after. Definitely followed Steve Rubel and like his sentencing and like trying to revive Studio 54 followed it a lot more than

the behind the music did. Yes, yes, I think that's right. Um, because I also watched part of that too, uh, this morning. Also in 98, though, Studio 54 reopened as a theater space, right? When the cabaret revival moved, which was after this movie came out, but

that was in 98. Right, which I ended up seeing when they brought that same cabaret revival, like they didn't I don't know, I don't, the rules of this are weird. I, I would just call it a revival, too, because it was like a decade or more since it happened. But because nothing about the show changed, it was still the same show.

Anyway, I saw it with Michelle Williams. They just brought back to bring some money. Right. Michelle Williams is Sally Bowles, and I didn't get to see Alan Cumming, which is so disappointing. He was out with the flu that week. But it was good. But, like, that specific production, which was, like, known as being the seedier, cabaret that like kind of felt more authentic to what that bar would have been in that era of

Germany but like it had this added veneer of like oh you're seeing it in a space where people used to fuck like the chairs sitting in perhaps somebody had sex in this chair or did some cocaine or that's what I was thinking of watching the behind the music because they were talking about how infamous the basement of Studio 54 was for like sex and drugs and celebrity and whatever. And I'm just like, and now that's essentially 54 below, which is a cabaret space in that same spot. And I'm just like, that's now we're just like, like, theater homos go to watch Jeremy Jordan saying it's all coming back to me now.

Like, that's just, and I've been there like plenty of times. I saw like an anniversary screening of, uh, camp, the Anacendric movie Camp there. That's where I saw the hitlist musical live performance after Smash and all that stuff. I was just like, it's so, it's such a different universe now that, like, occupies that space than occupied it back in those days, but it's funny to me. We should talk more about the actual movie, though. I feel like we've sort of ricocheted off of the plot a little bit.

But the movie kind of ricochets off of them. movie, like, the movie needs, like, a level of understanding of, like, why Studio 54 was so significant before you even watch it. Like, I'm sure if the children watched it today, they wouldn't see what a big deal this club was. Like, the movie, like, needs you to kind of enter into it already having that level of obsession because, like, it doesn't establish it on its own. I mean, we could talk about the, like, thruple-ness of the movie, which, like, in the theatrical cut, it doesn't make that much sense because it's just like Ryan Philippi and Salma Hyac kind of getting together and dancing

around it. Right. You don't have the scene where they start to have sex in the bathroom stall, and Steve is, like, looking in on them, right? No, you do. Oh, you do? But it's pretty late in the movie. It is very late in the movie, yeah.

But, like, that whole dynamic. and the relationship would make so much more sense if there is also the sexual relationship with Breckenmeyer's character. Right. What does definitely get cut out is there's a scene where they kiss, where Shane and Greg kiss. And it's very sort of like awkward and fraught, but then it at least pays off that tension.

And that comes after the couple scenes where Shane becomes, like, sort of like goes off with this guy, this friend of Seal Awards, who she's... The Seal Award character in this movie is amazing. Because like, all she does in this movie is she has sex with Ryan Philippi's character and she like pause at him constantly.

And then she just tells all of her friends how great he is in bed. Like, that's essentially her role in this movie is to like spread the legend of Shane 54, the... Absolutely cut Kylie Jenner out of the WAP video and put CELA

award from this movie in there. Is Lauren Hutton in the cut that you saw? Yes. Okay. Where she takes her to Lauren Hutton's house and all that sort of stuff. And the guy calls him a troglodyte and he doesn't know what a troglodyte means. Yeah. Yeah.

But yes, I think you're right. I think without that, especially that one scene of Shane and Greg kissing, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that there is this sort of three-way sexual tension between them. And then, of course, then that scene. of them in Ramona's fur at the end doesn't have the same kind of impact. I mean, it's a pretty thin impact as it is, and like if it's like robbed of that even more. You also said that he has like a male seal award in the director's cut.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that's what I was sort of, that was, I was getting to too, is yeah, he goes home with this other guy and you see there's that montage that ends with the butt shot. There's the montage of him sort of like waking up in bed with a bunch of different. women. And in that one, there's a couple of... That's a couple of shots of him waking up in bed with men sort of interspersed in that. And there's also the scene in the theatrical where he's in the hot tub and that sort of like vacation locale next to the woman. And in the director's cut, he starts out in the hot tub next to this guy, this guy who he had been sort of boy toy for. And so he's like sort of like

canoodling with that guy. And then the woman moves from the other end of the hot tub and sort like sits in between them and so but they cut out the whole like the part of that scene that alludes to this relationship that he's having with this guy as well so yeah that's interesting and it's not michael york because when michael york showed up i really thought that like okay ryan phillope he's gonna fuck michael york right and also and cabaret vibes and all that kind of stuff too right we're like uh yes no it was not michael york it was um it was the guy with the scarf who I thought was supposed to be a Halston analog, but maybe

not. So, I don't know. But there's definitely just like, there's just a lot of smaller stuff where there's just like plausible queerness, which like made, makes so much more sense because this whole idea of just like

there are no lines, there's no boundaries, everything like that. And the test screening that this had, of course, on Long Island, that essentially doomed the original Mark Christopher cut of this movie was audiences didn't like the main characters, which honestly fair, because they're not great characters, but they particularly didn't like the fact that they did all this quote unquote bad behavior

and that the story didn't punish them for it. And so they had to take, first of all, they took out all the queer shit and then second of all, they added in this sort of like false little happy ending where all the, the ending of the movie is no longer that they're just sort of these three kind of like refugees wandering the street together, you know, thruple illusion, whatever. And instead, they've reformed themselves and they've all sort of like gone straight and narrow and all this kind of stuff. And they show up at the Revive Studio 55. and shoot each other, pleasant nods across the room.

It's such a bad scene. Wasn't it a moment? Wasn't it a moment in time? And it's like, after the movie I just watched, was it a moment in time? I don't know. Well, and after reading all the stuff about what was cut out and why, I started to think about movies like Bohemian Rhapsody, right? Which, like, caught this, like, tidal wave of criticism for doing what a ton of biopics including, I will say, the better-received Rocket Man that didn't get any of this criticism, which I did think it actually did also deserve,

with this idea of this moralistic view of these rock star primarily biopics where they indulge in drugs and sex and queerness and whatever, and that's like the low point of the kind of parabola arc of the movie. And they all, then the people, who do this must be punished for it in some way. And in Bohemian Rhapsody, it was particularly egregious because the punishment for that, in that case, is that Freddie Mercury ended up dying of AIDS. And, but like, it exists in... Meanwhile, all of his other bandmates are presented as, like, holding hands with their wives and not doing any drugs and not drinking and not doing

any of this, which is, of course, absurd. Right. But it made me think of like all this stuff that I find so objectionable in that genre of this, you know, misbehavior and punishment and redemption for it and all this sort of stuff, um, stems from, like, it comes from somewhere. And we all tend to, rightly, I think, put it on Hollywood studios in this sort of like accepted dogma of how these stories must go. And then these- All the way back to the Hayes Code. Right. And these scripts don't deviate from that and whatever. But then you see this like something like, 54, which did attempt to deviate from that at least a little bit, and it wasn't just Miramax and Harvey Weinstein that, like, dictated the change. It was these audiences who

wouldn't accept it. And the fact that, like, so it's like, what's the chicken or the egg? Have audiences been brainwashed by movies to only accept this particular narrative arc? And when they don't see it, they revolt against it. Or... Yeah, they don't understand what they're watching. Or are, like, our movies responding to the way that, like, people react to it, or are people responding to the way movies have made them react to it? And it's in any way it's just infuriating. I mean, at some point, you're maybe talking about audiences from 25 years ago, but also maybe, like, no diss to Long Island. But maybe if you're going to test screen this movie, Long Island is not your audience to test screen it for.

But it's a weird bit of cowardice for Miramax to. to obviously greenlight this movie and shoot the movie as scripted as what it sounds like the director's cut is in the way that it ends, that it's like basically like supporting a thruple or, you know, some type of... And like, and not explicitly, but like, it, you know, there's, there's allusions to stuff and, like, let that stay. Sure, sure. Well, I mean, even if Nev Campbell's character, like, is showing up at the same time, it's like, you know, you. can go to this one straight woman who you've idolized who has been like this pinnacle of whatever for

you or you can go to your you know unconventional family unit that you've made and that is like that's a clear choice and you're approving that choice and then you back out of it it's a weird bit of cowardice to me it is it absolutely is

the other thing I thought of though you might speaking of the Long Island of it is this movie does belong to that canon of movies about people from New Jersey or people from sort of Long Island like venturing into the city. I thought immediately of Coyote Ugly when I started watching this of the you know I'm going to you know I've lived in the in the shadow of those skyscrapers all my life and now I'm going to make the big move into the city and like obviously like Saturday Night Fever is such an analog for a movie like this.

But I only tend to think of the trash ones because I thought of Coyote Ugly and I thought of 200 cigarettes where the Gabby Hoffman and Christina Ricci characters take the Your cousin probably isn't even having a party. She is having a party.

I just need the address. They're both from like Ron Concoma or whatever and it's... The voice is the choice. The voice is the choice indeed. Yeah, what if Natalie Portman had been their third friend in that film? How much better would that have been? Natalie Portman should, by right, be in 200 cigarettes. She should.

She absolutely should. You know, he's great in 200 cigarettes. Courtney Luffin. Oh, she is. That's the first thing I ever saw Kate Hudson in. Me too. And I remember having, because she's stuck in, I think we've talked about this, how she's stuck in those scenes with Jay Moore, and I can't stay in Jay Moore.

And although she ends up with somebody else later. Is it Paul Rudd? Who is... No, because Paul Rudd and Courtney Love end up together. She ends up sort of like at the end of the movie... Is she the one that Fox Elvis Costello?

No, Genoa, Geroffalo, fucks Elvis Costello. That's a wild movie. I should see it again. Anyway, yeah, I remember thinking, like, oh, this girl's got a little bit of light on her, and I had no idea that it was Goldie Hans' daughter at the time, and it was great. Yeah.

Okay. We should talk about... We should move on to the Oscar conversation with Mike Myers. Because like it's always been true that like comedic actors doing dramatic work gets its own kind of buzz and like it's a like it's its own type of oroborist tasting its own tail where it's like that is considered more serious than whatever. But like this is kind of a weird time in that like this was a huge conversation partly because of Jim Carrey doing it. um with the truman show and it feels like in a certain way mike myers was just like piggybacking on top of that you know i do think no i don't think you're crazy because that was definitely a thing

although the jim carrie stuff was kind of definitional to the limitations of that and that like ultimately the oscars never let him into their club and whenever i see a comedic actor so of like making this play for a dramatic role seemingly to, you know, get Oscar attention, to rewards attention. It always, I always think of Robin Williams first because Robin Williams is the big success story there where especially, I mean, Jim Carrey falls in with this too, where it's just like this very singular comedic persona. And by this point, Mike Myers had done Wayne's World.

He had done Austin Powers. He had, you know, was past Saturday Night Live by this point. But he was not only like a comedic actor, but he was a comedic creator of his own sort of atmosphere, universe, this kind of thing. And Robin Williams was... And not the type of comedic performer, like maybe the analog here is more Adam Sandler,

because he's not the type of comedic performer that gets like, you know, high-minded considerations. Like he was doing goofy comedies. not like, you know. Right. Right. Prestige comedies or... And Robin Williams had been able to so successfully make that transition where it's like, I believe his first nomination is for Good Morning Vietnam in 87 or 88. And... Which is like one foot in each puddle, basically. It's definitely, he still is, like, he's doing the Robin Williams thing in the same way that like he didn't like Mrs. Doubtfire. He's

doing the Robin Williams thing. But because it is set in... this Vietnam setting that had been such a reliable Oscar sort of environment for a while. Like, Platoon had just won best picture and this whole kind of thing. So that was kind of the gateway.

But then he's like fully serious roles in, well, he doesn't get, does he get nominated for Awakenings? Or is that De Niro? I think it's De Niro. But like, he gets nominated for the Fisher King, which is again sort of like Robin Williams.

sort of like allowed to do his thing within the confines of a very different kind of role and then goodwill hunting happens and that is fully

Robin Williams taking it seriously you know there's like there's some humor to those scenes with him and Matt Damon he tells the story of his his wife farting and whatnot

and it's very comedic but it's mostly it's just like Robin Williams is downshifting into kindly you know Judd Hirsch in ordinary people kind of stuff and it works he wins the Oscar for it in 1997 and I think especially Harvey Weinstein being the sort of Oscars obsessed person that he is you could easily see well and

Harvey Weinstein goodwill hunting was a Miramax movie so are they going to this was could have been seen as like they're following the same mold that they just had success with and part of my thinking of why they would tack on that ending is the director cut ends without a real resolution to the Steve Rubel character. He's very, very much, by the end of that movie, you get the sense of just like, he's not the important character here. It's the other ones. And that tacked on final scene, while bad, at the very least is- Very sentimental high school graduation type of monologue. But it's attempting to give you a sentimental warm feeling about Mike Myers' character specifically.

And I think that was probably with an eye towards we're going to try and make a awards campaign happen for him. And there was a lot of chatter about it. I remember there being a lot of talk in media about, is this a possibility? And I think Robin Williams was a lot of reasons. We're already having that conversation about Jim Carrey for the Truman Show.

And it had just happened for Robin Williams. Right. And it just never materialized in it. Like he didn't even get a satellite nomination. Like he did, you know, there was just. Which probably has to do with the movie bombing and giving bad reviews. Yes, I think so too. Which, again, we talked about, I don't think he's giving a bad performance in this. It's an interesting. No, I think he's good. And that's why the rewrite, like, finale moment is so strange to me because, like, giving him the sentimental monologue is like, to have some type of, like, emotional connection to this character is not why the performance is good. Like, the performance is good because, like, A, like, it's, it's semi-stunt casting because Mike Myers looks remarkably like Steve Rubell anyway. But, like, he's a creep. He's, like, a dirty businessman who's also on, like, drugs all of the time. All the time, yeah. And that's what Mike Myers is great.

But, yeah, yeah. And he has, like, this, like, really complicated presence on screen in this movie that I at least found interesting. And then when that monologue happened, it's like, wait, that's not at all why this character has been compelling throughout the movie. So it's self-defeating. Yeah. And again, you watch the behind the music and you're just like, oh, there are so many other facets to Rebell's character that I think Myers would have done a really interesting job with about how sort of this kind of, you know, his overall dream of what he wanted his particular corner of New York City Nightlife to be. And, you know,

this melting pot of all these different types of people, the way he essentially cast the club by the people he led in and the people he didn't. You see a little bit of him at the door, which I always think is like, all his scenes at the door are really good. And he's talking about, you know, you know, I'm not going to let you in. You're wearing, you know, you got that hat. you look like a waiter, you look like James Bond, what's going on? And it's like, all that stuff's really good. All that stuff's really funny. And I think if the movie allows him to be a little funnier, it's also probably good.

Although I wonder if Mike Myers as Rubel trying to be funny is too much Mike Myers, if that makes sense? Like you would pull you out, like it might pull you out of the character. See, I thought the scenes that were Mike Myers as Mark Rubel trying to be funny were even like, Mark Rubel's version of being funny was like intimidation creepiness sexual predation Yeah well certainly you get those scenes too

Absolutely but like again like a more Complicated you know Many sides kind of a version of that character I think would be really interesting It's just it I mean I guess you could in some way say he's the villain of the movie But there's nothing like mustache twirley about it it's a really complicated yeah ultimately his attempts at sort of letcherous villainy

come to not because he's so he's like he's so zonked out on quailudes that he can't do anything about it you know what i mean where it's just sort of like he's never all that threatening because it's just like well just like you know push him down and it'll pass out like that kind of thing. And there's, I don't know, there's not a ton of threat to him, which, you know, okay. It's a very interesting supporting actor year at the Oscars, if you want to take a look at it, too. And I don't think there isn't room, there wouldn't have been room for maneuvering in here if the film had been better received and if, like, a lot of different things had gone a different way. This was the year that James Coburn, quite surprisingly, won the award for his role in affliction, which is some...

I hadn't realized that win had had almost no precursor attention until I recently watched it, and I was kind of blown away by that. It's, I remember being surprised at the time, but I think I should have been more surprised. I feel he beats out the critical champ that you're, at least one of them was Billy Bob Thornton. This was the year that all the critics' prize were won by Billy Bob Thornton for a simple plan and Bill Murray for Rushmore, and then Murray doesn't get nominated at all. And Ed Harris wins the Globe, am I right? Ed Harris won the globe, and Ed Harris was the one most people thought was going to win the Oscar because he had the best narrative.

Whereas, like, Billy Bob had won for writing two years before for Slingblade. So it's like he did have an Oscar. And, I mean, I guess, like, Ed Harris isn't really, like, a cuddly personality either. This was a really, it's an interesting lineup where it's like Billy Bob Thornton, Ed Harris, Robert Duval, James Coburn, who are all some degree or another of ornery or like, aloof for standoffish or whatever. And then Jeffrey Rush for Shakespeare in Love, who was, like, was never going to win, had just won Best Actor two years before, was absolutely a let's give Shakespeare in Love another nomination because we really enjoy. it kind of a thing. But, like, he was never a threat to win. So, but, um, so Billy Bob had the Oscar for writing from a couple years ago.

But Ed Harris had the narrative of, it's his, what, fourth nomination by this point? Maybe he had been, what, the right stuff? Apollo 13. This is maybe his third nomination. Yeah, it's before Pollock. It's before Pollock. But I think after Apollo 13, and he doesn't win for that, I think there was a drumbeat of just like, oh, Ed Harris should win.

Ed Harris should have an Oscar. He's so good. And it would have been the way for this, for the Oscars to have awarded the Truman Show, which, after the Jim Carrey snub, they still gave the Truman Show a best director nomination for Peter Weir. So, like, clearly, the Oscar voters did enjoy that movie. But then on the day, it's James Coburn. And you're right. Almost no precursor support to it whatsoever. He's also not playing a nice, like, he's not playing, you know, a character that the audience is.

supporting at all he's just like playing this old bastard abusive father right alcoholic which I think I think it's two things I think it's one that was probably a very very close race between multiple people yes and two Nick Nolte actually had a lot of steam in a very very competitive best actor race and I think James Coburn probably benefited absolutely how much attention Nick Nolte was getting absolutely I think that he won I think that's a big part of it. I think both of those things you said is true is that I bet you there was a big split between people voting for Ed Harris, people voting for Billy Bob Thornton. And I think there was probably a lot of support for Robert Duval in a civil action for getting that old timer still got it. He's a previous winner, but it was a bazillion years ago. And I'm sure he got a bunch of support too. So I think you're right. I think the vote totals were pretty split. And Noel T and Ian McKellen for gods and monsters. were the two favorites at the beginning of that Oscar season. We've talked about this before,

about how Roberto Benini sort of barnstormed through, gets that Oscar, and then immediately they were like, what did we do? What happened? The point I will make is when your least, like, curmudgeonly elder statesman nominee in a category is Jeffrey Rush? Yes, yes. I do kind of still wonder if Mike Myers and 54 itself

had been better received. Maybe. Like, they would have made room for that. I mean, they didn't make room for Bill Murray in Rushmore. Who was also a cramudgeonly character as well. Like, that was just like, those were your options that year in 1998, truly. And also a comedic actor who has several attempts at, like, dramatic movies, all the way back to the Razors Edge in the 80s.

And all the way up till 2020 now, he's going to be, I don't think he's going to end up getting a nomination for On the Rocks. No, it's, it's comedic, but it's still, it's Bill Murray

comedic in that, it's like modern day Bill Murray comedic, right? Where it's, they're sad. He's, you know,

he's funny, but there's a lot of sense. But I think it's the most, like, leaning into his, the comedy side versus the drama that he's happening. We're talking about his role,

of course, in On the Rocks, the Sophia Copeland movie on the Rocks. Which, I forget when it's coming to Apple TV Plus, it might be either

this week or this coming week by the time this episode airs. Check it out. It's good. I loved it. I seemed to like it a lot more than other people did. Yeah, I think you liked it better than me, but I do think it's good and worth watching. And Bill Murray's great in it. All right, we got to talk about Ellen Albertini

Dow, or else I'm going to just fucking explode. Oh my God. Oh, my God. Also having a moment because a huge moment is 1998, right? Right. So Ellen Albertini Dow, if you don't know the name and you probably wouldn't. You definitely would know her on site, where if you see her, she is like consummate

Hollywood old lady. She's playing disco dottie, who Chris mentioned, based on an actual person, Disco Sally. And she's, you know, she's the old lady at the club and she's boogging down. She's doing drugs and she's flirting with the bartenders. She is a total ray of sunshine in this movie. She's a total blast. I absolutely love her. She is, and I think the movie realizes it too, because she's the only person who they call upon to, like, ground this movie emotionally by the end, where

like, it's the only thing that could happen in the movie to elicit a, like, strong emotion from the audience is to have Disco Dottie die on the dance floor at the end of this movie. But as Chris mentioned, 1998, she's also in the wedding singer

playing the rap and granny who sings Rappers Delight at the climactic point of the movie, and it was everywhere. Like, it was in all the commercials. It was in all this stuff for Wedding Singer. It was a total sensation.

It was, she was the moment. Like, if Wendy Williams were on television at the time, she would tell you that Ellen Albertini Dow was the moment. Now, come on now. Indeed. And also... Wedding Singer, problematic fave. How problematic?

Why is it problematic? I think it's transphobic. I don't think that movie particularly likes women all that well. Okay, it's been a while since I saw it. Like, a punchline of the movie is a little boy calling a woman a bitch. Yeah, you're remembering all the stuff

that isn't Drew Barrymore in that movie. I mostly just remember Drew Barrymore. I know. Drew Barrymore is sensational in the wedding singer. Drew Barrymore is really good. But also, the other thing that I... Julia Gulia is genuinely one of the best jokes. Julia Gullia is a great joke.

Also, the John Lovitz cameo in that movie where he sings Ladies' Night, aggressively to Drew Barrymore as he's auditioning for their wedding singer position is so good. Barrymore is way better

in that movie than that movie deserves and fully like pulls it up from its bowels into like just wonderfulness. You're reminding me of all the objectional parts about it, but I still have warm feelings about that movie. Maybe I shouldn't ever watch it again.

But I remember really enjoying it. Anyway, keep your warm feelings about it. Just watch her doing the wedding monologue to the mirror of where she keeps saying I'm Mrs. Julia Gulia and sobbing. She's so good. I love her so much. Also, the concept of church tongue, I remember

also from that movie. Well, they talk about how you have to kiss at the end of a wedding and, you know, tongue, but just a little bit of tongue. It's good. Oh, okay. Church tongue. Yes, yes, yes. The other Ellen Albertini Dow role that I remember vividly is she was on an episode of Seinfeld in 1995 playing the mother of

J. Peterman. And in this particular episode, as Seinfeld episodes do, plot lines kind of converge. And George was in trouble with his fiancé because he wouldn't tell her what his ATM pin code was. And she wanted him to share it with him so that they would have no secrets and whatever. and he wouldn't tell anybody, and Jerry's just like, just tell her. And he's like, no. And then he, Peterman, he ends up not being able to get out of these social obligations with Peterman, who's Elaine's boss. Like, she doesn't, like, he doesn't have anything.

But he gets, like, dragged along by Peterman to his mom's house, who is, like, sick and in bed and dying. And in a moment where it's just George and the mom, George is just like, I got to tell somebody. It's been, like, you know, bubbling up inside me. And he tells her that his pincoat is Bosco, like, the chocolate syrup, Bosco. And she just goes... Bosco.

Basco. Basko. Mama? Quiet, quiet. It's a secret. Basko. Basko. What are you trying to say? Bostco.

Peterman runs in the room and she says, Boscow one more time and then she dies. And then so Peterman's like, I got to find out what this Boscow is. And that's the whole, then the entangle. and for the rest of the episode. But every time I see Elmbud, Ellen Albuchnie Dow, I either think of her singing rapper's delight or her sang Basco.

That's a legacy right there. And then after a wedding singer, she spent the next 20 years until her unfortunate passing. May she rest. Playing like horny old ladies. She was the rap and granny for the rest of her life, essentially.

She was variations on that thing. She died in. 2015 at the age of 101. And she stayed booked and busy the entire time. God bless her. Like, just a legend, for sure. And also, she's great in

54. That's the other thing is she got a Razi nomination for that movie, and fuck those people. If you need another reason to say, fuck the Razzies. Fuck those people. Why are you picking on this lady? First of all, the scene in the drugstore where she runs into Shane and she's like her non-54 persona and she's there with her

granddaughter is a great scene. Yeah. Well, okay, first of all, they probably A. hated the movie because it's a bunch of straight homophobes and they, like, want to shit on disco. But they also probably wanted to shit on rap and granny without having the actual like stones to do it. I think that's probably very true. And look, you know, rap and granny is not a proud cultural moment in our history. But like, it's harmless. I feel like we can say with a. with confidence. But yeah, like, shut up. Don't pick on this old lady. I'll fight you. I'll fight you,

RASI voters. It's the only award thing that she has on her page, and it's cruel and stupid. I think we should retroactively have that nomination removed. Oh, my God. Where's our change.org petition to have Ellen Albertini Dau's Razi nomination stricken from the record. Ellen Albertini Dau's name. Yes.

I can't talk today. It's fine. We're all going through it. Can we talk for a half a second about Sherry Stringfield, who gets a individual title card credit and Ellen Elin Everettini Dow doesn't, which I think is interesting. What? Sherry Stringfield, who, if she wasn't still on ER by this point, she had just left. Like, she was, I wrote down in my notes, she is the Elizabeth Rome in American Hustle of this movie, where it was just like, good in American Hustle. She is good in American Hustle.

like her a lot in American Hustle, where it's like, it took me a long time, I was just like, who is, why do I know her? And it's Sherry Stringfield, playing the, like, absolutely inexplicable role of, like, Steve's accountant, or like, whatever, like, she's handling the money in the back room of this thing. And then he fires her for, like, specious reasons. And then at the very end, when Shane walks in and he sees the feds raiding the office, she's there so we're given the the um we're supposed to think like she's the one who ratted

steve out to the feds but like in that case the person who rats you out doesn't like show up with the feds like i guess maybe she had to let them in or something like that in the back door but like it was very strange that like she's only there so that the audience can be like oh her like that which i thought was pretty stupid i don't know i'm glad i finally saw this movie yeah I'd always wanted to as a child and was not allowed. Shout out to All My Children's Cameron Matheson as one of the shirtless ab-forward bartenders. Yeah, yeah. Because it was funny because the Neff Campbell's character is mentioned as she's on All My Children in the universe of the movie.

And I thought that was funny that Cameron Matheson at that moment was still on All My Children. He was, he and Josh Dumel played romantic rivals who then, I think at some point ultimately became friends. And then they killed off Josh Neville, alas. Can I talk about one of my petty grievances with this movie? Of course. We love petty grievances. Okay, in a lot of the, like, just going through my notes, a lot of the disco scenes,

they're just like literally throwing glitter around to where it's like, it's stuck in people's hair, it's stuck in people's faces. But in the same shots, you will see bartenders carrying drinks around the dance floor. And I was so upset the whole time that there was like, glitter in people's drinks. Yes. Because, like, when I order a cocktail, I want my cocktail. I don't want, like, it was very stressful to me as, uh, uh, I guess maybe someone with,

uh, low grade OCD. No, I get it. I understand it. It, it just, it was gross to me. It was gross. It was gross. It was Cape Lanchett. I don't want little bits of plastic floating in my champagne.

No, who does? Yeah, I'm going through my notes too. I mentioned, um, Ryan Phillippies, Robert Plant wig at the very beginning. of the movie before he gets his signature perm curls. I wrote it down as Peter Frampton. That is also, yes, it's the same, that wig is cut from the same cloth, for sure.

It is Justin Timberlick on S&L as Brian Gibb. Yes, absolutely. The one point, the Shane character says to, I think it's his sisters when he comes back after the first time, he says, the thing about stars is they're short no truer statement has ever been said like that it's absolutely true the thing about

stars is that they're short the dialogue in this movie is often really bad there's the moment where back at Greg and Anita's apartment with Shane Greg tells Shane that like the three food groups in this movie or in this

apartment are like solid liquid and hot smoke and I'm just like shut up that's so dumb and then at some point seal awards character says this doobie is tonics a lot and I was just like this is egregious I don't know I can't deal

what else Salma Hayek's iconic pose on the poster like it is it's the true I don't know like you can just imagine her saying like yeah girl or something like that like it could easily you could lift it

color correct it so that it's not like hot orange yeah and it could be an Activia ad. This was also, I'm pretty sure, the first movie after Welcome to the Dollhouse that I saw Heather Matarazzo in, and I remember being so happy that, like, she was getting other work because, like, she's so singular in Welcome to the Doll House and, you know, wonderful.

All right. Should we move on to the IMDB game? Yeah, let's do it. All right, explain to our listeners new and old what the IMDB game is. Sure. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game. IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for.

If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free for all of hints. That's the IMDB game. How are we doing this today? Why don't you give me first? Okay, cool. So I actually went down the Neve Campbell route into the Scream universe, my beloved Scream

universe, like the only good spooky season watching that I've had this year. I'm striking out for the most part. But of her co-stars, of the Scream franchise, I have for you one Mr. David Arquette. Oh, I thought you were going to give me famous IRA almost was Rose McGowan. Okay. No, I did not. I did not. Rose McGowan, I feel like, would be easy because it would probably be scream charmed. Charmed. Yeah. Charmed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we'll maybe do her another time. All right.

David Arquette. Scream. No. Fuck off. What? That's insane. Scream 2? Yes. Okay. That's even more insane.

Like, that's so stupid. Oh, my God. Well, now I've got to decide whether Scream 3 or Scream 4. All right, we'll put the pin in those for a second. I'm not ruling out that it's Scream 2, 3, and 4, and then something stupid. And it's all film, right? Yes, no TV. I'm trying to think of, like, that era where they would have allowed him to be the lead and things.

Is one of them ready to rumble? It was a time. No, not ready to rumble. Sorry, that's your two guesses. You know who isn't ready to rumble? Scott Cobburtini Dow. Oh, is she really? Of course she is.

That is a perfect choice for her, for Ellen Elbritini Dow. Do you know, you may not, because you are not, like me, we're not into wrestling during that era. That, like, because ready to rumble is David Arquette and Scott Con get into wrestling, and Oliver Platt is like the, whatever, wrestling champion. That off of that movie, David Arquette started competing in, like, wrestling matches. for WCW and became World Championship Wrestling Champion. Yes. Yes. He has

a movie called You Can't Kill David Arquette and I think it is about his wrestling. And it was so poorly received by wrestling fans that a lot of them chalk that up to like one of the things that ended up killing that company was

letting David Arquette become champion. It was truly a time. Anyway. I got your years for you. Your years are 1999, 2000, and 2002. Okay. 2000 is Scream 3. It is indeed Scream 3.

I picked David Arquette because Scream 2 and 3 are on is known for, but not the first scream. That is. It has to be, I'm pretty sure he's lower build in the original scream. Probably, because Drew Barrymore is certainly billed above him. Yeah, I think by... Barrymore got an and credit for it. Oh, maybe. Doing the full Janet Lee.

But like Skeed Ulrich would be billed above him in that. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By two and certainly by three, the central trio of that movie. He was also like among that cast, he wasn't famous. Like Skeed Ulrich had already had like the craft. Right. No, you're totally right.

You're absolutely right. Anyway. 99, 2002. See, in like, 99, I'm pretty sure was ready to rumble. Or maybe that was 98. Anyway. 99 is definitely a movie that, like, people still love and talk about, and he is second build for. But, like, nobody ever mentions that he is so prominent in this movie.

Oh, is it never been kissed? It is, the brother. The creepy brother who was, like, absolutely dating a high school girl and never been kissed, I'm pretty sure. Um, 2002? 2002. Uh, you could maybe

justify this as a spooky season movie, but like it's more of a dumb comedy. You probably forgot that this is a summer movie. Pretty sure it bombed. I wonder what it opened against. So like less, less obviously spooky than something like idle hands or eight-legged freaks, right?

Yeah. Is it eight-legged freaks? It's eight-legged freaks. Oh, my God. I definitely don't remember that as a summer movie. Yeah. All right. I'm surprised that I got that as easily as I did.

Okay. A seminal Scarlet Johansson film, Eight-Legged Freaks. Oh, boy. Right? She's in that. I'm pretty sure. Yes, she is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stupid stuff. Do you remember, because it was in 2002, so of course that was the summer of Spider-Man that the TV commercials for Eight-Legged Freaks had one of the dumb characters somebody was just like, what was that? And the guy's like, it's a Spider-Man! And like that was in all of their ads

to try and draft off of Spider-Man's success. I am looking at a red carpet premiere photo of Eight-Legged Freaks with Scarlett Johansson in plastic hoop earrings from Clare's, Auburn hair, and a nose ring. Wow. A moment in time, for sure. So that was what, 02? So she had already...

Ghost World had happened. Right, but Lost in Translation hadn't. Okay. Interesting. All right. Ready for yours? Do you have for me? All right. So I went the, not only the Mike Myers route, but the 54 is a stealth Austin Powers reunion route where it was Mike Myers and Michael York reunited together again one year after. Austin Powers International Man of Mystery. The other star of that film was the great Elizabeth Hurley. So give me Elizabeth Hurley.

Okay. Well, Elizabeth Hurley, Austin Powers has got to be on there. Yes, Austin Powers is on there. Okay. Bedazzled? Yes. In her role as the devil. The devil, opposite Brendan Fraser in Bedazzled from 2000.

Okay. Who did bettazzled? Was that anybody of a note? I mean... Harold Ramos. Harold Ramos directed Bidazzled. Oh, no. Yes, he did.

Okay. What the hell else was she in? That's a good question. She had a real moment in time there. She really did. Was it her with Hugh Grant? Right? That was the couple?

That they dated? Yes. And then she was the one he was dating when he got caught with the hooker, right? Yes, she did it. Okay. What's the movie she did with Matthew Perry that bombed? It's the two of them on the poster. Pretty sure she's in some type of cowboy hat.

I just can't remember the movie. But I distinctly remember this poster and this existing. All right, I will tell you... You know I know the movie, but I don't know the title. Right, it's not it. It's not it, so I'll let you move on from that. It was serving Sarah. She absolutely is on the poster in a hot pink bedazzled cowboy hat.

Early 2000s, man. Hot pink plaid miniskirt with just like money floating around. And Matthew Perry's in a leather jacket. it. Jesus Christ. Yikes. The one thing that could bring them together is revenge, is the tagline for serving Sarah. Ooh. Yeah.

I am not going to be able to get this. I don't think she shows up in the other Austin Powers movies. If I remember it correctly. Is she in, like, the second Austin Powers? It's the second Austin Powers. briefly in the second awesome powers one because you find out at the very beginning of the spy who shagged me that she's a fembot that she was a fembot all along that makes absolute sense though I do not remember that because she has the the um the the guns come out of her her boobies and he was

like machine gun jeblies how did I not notice those before and then she as the robot just goes try for play and then tries to kill him okay um oh god I I'm going to have to maybe throw out Something that she could just conceivably be in. Like, is she in, like, drowning Mona? I don't think it's definitely not the one, and I don't think she's in it. Okay, so your year on this one is 1992. What? She was 12 years old.

She was probably not 12 years old, but yeah, it's definitely before, a good while before us. You understand the point that I'm illustrating. Oh, yeah. Okay, 1999. It's definitely a movie you've heard of, but probably have not seen. It is also, and I'm going to do a little inside baseball here, it is a movie that comes up when we play movie categories because it is a specific type of film. Or like, it's a specific locale for a film. Oh, is it a movie that takes place on, underneath or in water?

No, but it's the other kind of thing. What's the opposite of like underwater in terms of like... The air. Right. Oh, is it an airplane movie? Uh-huh. Movies that take place on airplanes. Yes.

Ooh. What airplane movie was she in? Is it like explicitly an airplane movie or just like a famous scene within it? No, it's explicitly an airplane movie. It's not Air Force One, it's not Obviously, in 1992, what was an airplane movie in 1992? It has a very famous quip in the trailer It's not quite a quip, it's just sort of like he says it

It's not the tagline to the movie, but it should be Uh, okay Maybe it was used as a tagline later. Hold on, I'll look. He was a really big movie star of, like, that year, and then, like, within a few years he had already sort of faded, although he is in an ensemble, well, there's a, he's in a comedy that you and I both love with a central trio.

Comedy that we both love with a central trio. A central trio, and then, like, bunch of other, like, character actresses who we love is also in that movie. Oh. So, wait, is the Central Trio all male then? Yes. Okay. From a guy who did an airplane movie.

Three dudes in a movie with a bunch of character actresses. Ah. I don't know, man. There are three dudes in the movie, but, like, don't limit them gender-wise so strictly. Are they, wait, are they all dudes playing women, or are they dudes in drag? The latter. Oh, to Wong Fu. Okay, so John Leguizamo, Patrick Swayze, and Wesley Snipes.

1992. It's not John Leguizamo. Patrick Swayze and Wesley Sleps are definitely both conceivably in airplane movies, but I genuinely don't think I know what this airplane movie is. I know that there is... I feel like it would be more likely to be

Patrick Swayze at this time, but I do know that there is a Wesley Sleps movie where it's like the poster is him and an airplane over his shoulder. So I think it's whatever that movie is. It is. It is.

remember a poster from in video stores. It's Passenger 57. You had the right. You had the poster. You described the poster. It's Passenger 57. That's the movie. It sounds like one of those like era of under siege movies.

It absolutely is. John Claude Van Damme things that I will never see. He's an airline security expert who is on a plane that gets hijacked and he has to take them down. So it's essentially, it's die hard on a plane in the strictest possible sense. But that's the movie where he says, Always Bet on Black. Like in the trailer, he says Always Bet on Black, which is the greatest.

Yeah, Passenger 57, 1992, co-starring Elizabeth Hurley. I shan't be watching. You could have given me a Blade hint, too. Listen, between Blade and Two Wong Fu, I'm going to give you a two-wong-foo hint. Yeah, that's just out goes. That's very true. I got to Wesley Snipes fast enough from Two-Wong-Fu. Yeah, yes.

Excellent movie. First, we bake the pies, then we eat the pies, then we go home. And Joe, maybe we should go home. I think that's our episode. Yes. I think that's it. Let's go. If you want more of This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out our Tumblr at this hadoscorbuzz.com.

You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. That's the best place to follow what episodes we'll be doing and get some hints about where we're going. And if we're going to be doing anything exciting soon. Exactly. Joseph, where can our listeners find more of you? Sure. I am on Twitter at Joe Reed. Read is spelled R-E-I-D. I'm also on letterboxed with the name Joe Reed. Read spelled the exact same way. Yes, and I am also on Twitter shaking my groove thing at Chris V-File. That's F-E-I-L. Also on letterbox under the same name. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance.

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