This Had Oscar Buzz - 122 – Me And Orson Welles

Episode Date: November 30, 2020

While cinephiles celebrate the release of Mank this week, we’re looking back at a different Citizen Kane-adjacent awards hopeful: 2009′s Me and Orson Welles. The film stars Zac Efron as a young would-be actor who is plucked from the streets and cast in Welles’ landmark stage production of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. With Christian McKay as the infamous creative force … Continue reading "122 – Me And Orson Welles"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. So tell me who you are. What are you offering? Wealth, travel, fame. I can take you to movies that have all that. You're cute.

The whole show is in shambles. He is an arrogant. I am Orson Wells. And every single one of you, Spence here is an adjunct to my vision. You don't like the way I work here? There's the door. There is water breaching the deck. Sabatars.

This is the essential Orson Wells moment. We might have a show that closes. Thursday night. We might have a show that people will remember for 50 years. Orson wants to stay with me tonight. I want to fight for you? Because I will. You've only known me for a week. I don't sometimes remember a week for the rest of your life. Hello and welcome to that this had Oscar buzz podcast, the only podcast endorsed by the Panceless Man outside of Alice Tully Hall. Every week on this head Oscar buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with a young female writer who I only ever seem to see in the library, Joe Reed. Or a museum where I'm... Or a museum, but, like, weirdly fetishizing a Grecian urn. Yeah, like, you only exist in, like, state-funded buildings. Wait, do you feel like... ...place I can find you. Do you think, like, Zoe Kazan is, like, a ghost of the WPA or something like that?

Right, right. Like, she, she's a ghost of the, like, daughter of the founder of PBS or something. That only Zach Afron can see her. And so the end of this movie becomes a lot more supernatural. She is the anthropomorphize public broadcast system. Her character in this movie, I don't know, I feel like I became aware. of that trope in a film of like the blonde and the brunette

like the classic like I guess like Betty and Veronica kind of a thing right where like a male protagonist is choosing between two women and one is blonde and one is brunette and the blonde is always sort of this like idealized

perfect out of his league a little bit and whatever and the brunette is like attainable nice a good friend like all of that and I feel like, for whatever reason, my touchstone to that from early childhood has always weirdly been Dick Tracy, because in Dick Tracy, it's Madonna, Breathless Mahoney, whatever, blonde and dangerous and unattainable and whatever. And then he's got like Glenn Headley at home, just like, if all else fails, he can still,

you know, rely on Glenn Headley. And this movie weirdly reminded me of that, where it's just like Claire Daines is luminous and beautiful and everything that, you know, he wants in the world and everything like that. And then it's just like, nice girl, Zoe Kazan at the museum. And ultimately, you're just like, just go be with Zoe Kazan. Because, like, it's a lot, first of all, it's a lot less drama. But also it's just like, she's really nice and sweet and pretty and likes the things that you like. And to your point, Claire Dane's does a really great sooner or later in this movie.

Oh, my God, do I want to hear that now? Like, absolutely. Whatever movie Claire Dane sings sooner or later in will be our eighth Claire Dane's film that we cover on this podcast. Because this baby is number seven. I think she would win an Oscar for that. Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Well, we'll make an exception.

She finally win. That was my ham-handed segue into mentioning that this is our seventh Claire Dane's film. Seventh Claire Dane's movie. The only performer we've covered. seven times on this podcast. We did, we make a big deal for six. Seven is sort of gravy. We're not going to like whatever, but like, seven's a lot.

Seven's, we are going to get into it, though. But, like, of course she has to be the person to be the first seventh timer because, like, she has a reputation to uphold in this podcast, and we will continue to uphold that Claire Daines is, like, the unofficial mascot of this podcast. Yeah. Yes. Because there's more. There's still more, guys.

Oh, there's, yes, there's much more to come, for sure. We will not be doing stage beauty anytime soon because we will need it to keep the stats alive when our throne is threatened. Also, me and Orson Wells, a stealth stage beauty reunion of Billy Crudups to romantic opposite poles in that film, which were Ben Chaplin and Claire Daines. Yeah, I thought you were going to say it's a sort of stage beauty reunion because this movie has Claire Dane's. and a stage. Yes, Claire Daines finally at long last, reunited on film with a stage, yes. A general stage. This is also our third Zach Ephron film after the paper boy and, of course, the great

hairspray. We sort of have spaced him out a lot more sanely than we did, where, like, Claire Daines was five of our first 50 episodes. Definitely the least of the three Zach Ephron's that we've had, in terms of Zach Efron's performance and like screen persona, charisma. Absolutely. Well, you can tell that this is early. Like this, although it's the year after Hairspray, weirdly enough, but yet he fits into

that movie so well that that movie knows what to do with him a lot better. I think he's a little bit more adrift in this movie, as we will probably get into. He was still in Hairspray, like, waist deep in the Disney Star teen heart throb. And that's what that movie needed out of him. Yes, yes. Yeah, and this is, like, trying to step, one of the first, like, stepping out of that, like, agreed.

Yes. And it is also our second Zoe Kazan movie, I want to mention. And our second Zoe Kazan movie. Remind me, our previous Zoe Kazan movie, did she maybe portray a ghost that haunted public institutions? She played a ghost that haunted Merrill Streep and Alec Baldwin's estranged marriage. It. She was there.

Oh, yes. She was the unchosen Sophie's choice. Yes. The Sophie's choice who stuck around. Yes. Yeah. Part of the Meryl Streep's trio of annoying children in The Great. It's complicated. Interestingly enough, those kids are so bad. Who were going to talk about the 2009 Oscars in this podcast for sure. Who were the hosts of the 2009 Oscars? Well, Steve Martin and Alec Baldwin. The Stars of It's Complicated.

So truly, we bring it all around. Truly, the chain of Zoe Kazan on this podcast is what? It is complicated. Indeed. Very complicated. We should get some business off the table before we get into the episode, though. Yes, do it. As of the airing, we have wrapped up our listener's choice, like, massive poll of getting all of your votes.

Go check out our Twitter at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. You should be able to find the poll. If not now, very soon. I do wonder if we're going to have to have a tiebreaker poll, to be honest. I have some ideas, and we can talk about that off mic. Yeah, we'll talk off mic, but guys, check it out, and you'll be able to see the final votes. I have a hunch about what's going to win. You've had a strong hunch since the beginning about what's going to win.

I've had a, you know, I read the tea leaves. I pull all the books. You are our preeminent soothsayer, Chris. I am. I am. Catch me under a bridge, like, throwing some herbs into a river and determining our futures. But we also, now that we are in December, we actually have another thing to stump for you guys. We're doing another mailbag. I love a mailbag. Love a mailbag. After the listener's choice, we're going to do another mailbag for you guys. So send us your questions. We know you've already been sending us your votes for the listeners. choice but now send us any questions you want us to talk about um when should we set the deadline for this joe 15th yeah yes let's do you have until december 15th to send us uh any of your oscar entertainment movie related questions yes uh and yeah anything about yeah anything well let's

i'm not i'm not gonna put the too many you know nothing about the nothing too far afield of our uh yeah please don't ask us about about COVID and movie release. Yeah, yeah, don't bum us out, guys. We don't want to bum you out. We don't want to be bummed out. But yeah, tweet us your mailback submission questions at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz on Twitter

or email them at had oscarbuzz at gmail.com. Absolutely. You have until December 15th. Joseph. Yes. Me and Orson Wells. Yeah. You and Orson Wells.

Had it had a time of it. Or as Goldie would call it, me and Orson, Wilson Wells. Yeah, this was a movie that I had seen before, but didn't remember very much about. I don't know about you. I can't imagine why. Was this your first time? This was my first time watching this movie.

I'm kind of fascinated by this and Cradle Will Rock right now as like the preeminent Orson Wells on screen Oscar Missed movies. It did make me want to watch. It did make me want to watch Cradlewell Rock, which I haven't felt that need to since I first watched Cradlewell Rock back when it was. And I also haven't seen Cradlewell Rock.

Oh, that's interesting. The cast is fantastic. I'm trying to remember who played Wells in that. Oh, Angus McFaghan. Sure, sure. Well, and I also left this movie more eager to watch Cradle Roll Rock because I know that that is also more tied into the theater world of Orson Wells

and the best stuff about this movie was everything to do with the Julius Caesar production especially when it's the final performance that we get to see on stage. I thought to myself as I was watching that that this does the thing that we usually tend to say is pretty impossible for movies about movies or TV about TV. I remember that being such a big

thing with like the 30 Rock Studio 60 sort of thing when they're making TV shows but TV shows, which is that it's hard to make a production within a production that's supposed to be good, seem good, and not sort of overrated or pompous. But like this movie did the not inconsiderable task of making me wish I could watch that production of Julius Caesar. Do you know what I mean? Yes. But apparently they, they. like basically recreated it. They had all of the original stage designs,

all of the lighting design that they adapted it from. So it's like it's a close it's like historically a pretty close approximation for this what was really revolutionary on Broadway at the time. Which to me is

like... Modern dress, the like pretty clear aggressive cutting of Shakespeare's original text to serve Orson Welles' point. Right. It's a foundational production of the modern theater. It's reminiscent of if you ever saw the Ian McKellen, Richard III,

which was Shakespeare brought into a World War II context and sort of anti-fascist kind of a thing, like that this production of Julius Caesar was doing that. way back then and yeah it really made me wish I could watch it you mentioning that that they took such pains to sort of like

recreate that is for me that's sort of the Richard Linkletter iest sort of stamp that's on this movie I feel like I want to talk about in a little bit

about this era for Richard Linkletter that roughly tracks between before sunset and 2004 and before midnight in 2013 where he's making probably his it's probably his longest run of movies that feel very impersonal to him that feel most sort of estranged from him as a sort of essential artist and or at least the parts of him where he's leaning into his point of view that is on the more mainstream side and the less idiosyncratic side like School of Rock.

Well, School of Rock comes just before Sunset, and that is also, that doesn't necessarily scream Richard Linkletter to you, but it's also, in many ways, his most successful film, and it's so good that I sort of am happy to leave it out. But I'm, the run between before sunset and before midnight, which runs, before Sunset's 04, before Midnight's 2013, he remakes the Bad News Bears. He adapts Fast Food Nation. he adapts Philip K. Dix a Scander Darkly

using the rotoscope technology that he did for Waking Life, which does feel like a much more personal Richard Linkletter movie, and like using that same technology on a Scander Darkly does sort of draw that more

into his filmography, but it's still very much like a foreign source material for him. Mia Norson Wells is a screenplay by two people who are not him based on a book. And then Bernie's getting close. Bernie definitely does feel like a Richard Link Letter movie.

I think Bernie is sort of Link Letter getting a little bit back to where he was. And of course, during this whole stretch is also when he's filming Boyhood, you know, bit by bit, year by year kind of a thing. So, like, it's not like he's spending all this time completely divorced from what we think of as his sensibility, as he's doing. in many cases these kind of work for hire kind of a thing but it's an it's an odd stretch

it feels like I mean there's other times where he's had that long of a break but it's a three year break between this movie debuting and Bernie coming out and that's a long time for Richard Link later

like even some of his movies that just kind of don't make an impact like he makes a lot of movies right that's the thing he's always working. But I think it's telling that that's starting with Bernie,

it's this series of four very much like back to link letter stuff where like Bernie brings him back to Texas. Before midnight is obviously a return to this beloved franchise and this full circle kind of a moment for him and Ethan Hawke and Julie

Delpy. Boyhood is of course this culmination of this year's long project that he was working on. And then everybody wants them in 2016 is this spiritual sequel to Dazed and Confused, which is also a return. So, I mean, I'm somebody who sort of enjoys looking at director's filmographies in these kind of like block eras a little bit. And like, so it's this like really kind of impersonal era throughout the aughts,

pulling into this like return to himself in the 20, in the early 2010s at least. And then like he sort of retreats from that again with Last Flash. flying, and where did you go, Bernadette, which both seem very much like him just working on stuff that feels like somebody else's vision, their adaptations, and whatnot. And now, if we look at stuff that's upcoming, there's another rotoscoped movie coming next year, Apollo 10 and a half, which is about people sort of watching the Apollo moon landing. And it seems like if you read the description, that it could plausibly be a little sort of introspective waking life monologues

kind of a thing. I'm not sure if it's exactly going to turn out that way, but that seems like a possibility. I could be really into that. Me too. I loved waking life. I know that was sort of a divisive movie, but I really loved it. And then, of course, the other thing that he's working on at age 60 is embarking a 20-year merrily we roll along project, which, like, I'm dubious, but like, it definitely... Yeah, I don't think we're going to see a finished movie of that in 20 years. Right. And also the cast of Blake Jenner has now become really controversial with everything that we have found out about him

and his personal life. And so, like, that's a very fraught project. But, like, at least in its conception, that's, again, him returning to something that he had attempted, you know, successfully attempted very, very well with boyhood. And he's a really interesting director. I know he sort of gets pegged a lot of times as kind of a dude. You know what I mean? Kind of, he sort of gets the dazed and confused of it all has come to sort of defecutive. him as a persona. Obviously, Slacker is another one, which he's actually in, which sort of defines him as this, you know, this sort of 90s slacker persona has stuck with him. But I think he's a really interesting director with a really interesting career. I think he's interesting too. I think people don't give him credit for like some of the, I mean, you say some of them are impersonal, but like the more sentimental movies like Bernard that this the School of Rock

that actually can find something interesting about sentimentality that's not modeling or boring and it's always at least entertaining to watch. I know other people

feel differently about Bernadette. I kind of liked Bernadette. I saw it so far after the kind of critical dialogue about it and a lot of people just sort of really dismissed it

as slight. A lot of people who really loved the book, kind of, you know, slammed it for not being as good as what the book was. I had never read the book, but I watched it a few months ago, and I thought it was really engaging. I was, I was happy with it. It's not, like, didn't knock my socks off or anything, but I thought it was good. I agree. Cool. All right.

Where did you go, Bernadette fan club, numbers one and two? He is hard to pin down, though. Yeah. Like, he has those, like, staple movies, like, the before series, Dastin Confused that, like, get hung on him. But more often than not, his movies are not like that. So he, you're right that it's like we just be, people just fall back on, oh, well, he's just a dude director, right? Yeah. Because he's not so easy to, like, take the breath of his career and say what's definitive about him.

Yeah. Dazed and Confused is a really important movie for me in terms of when I was in high school, when I was still just sort of like figuring out what about the movies really fascinated me and what really sort of drew me to them. And Dase and Confused is released in 1993, so I'm still in junior high at that point. The only thing I remember about it when it got released was that a lot of the like cooler boys in my class, I'll love the soundtrack. because it was very sort of like classic rock, very, you know, of its era. And my growing up, like, all the cool kids listened to, like, their dad's classic rock. It was very, it was a very odd and interesting sort of moment, which kind of makes sense because the popular music at the time was very poppy.

So, of course, like, you know, the straight boys were going, we're not going to be listening to Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul like I was on the slide. They were going to be listening to Classic Rock. So, like, the Dazed and Confused soundtrack was very popular. And I remember seeing that sort of, like, the stoned happy face button being like an iconography that recurred. But I never saw it, and I didn't really know much about it as a movie, until a few years later when I was in high school, and it was on, like, USA Network at, you know, midnight or whatever. And I was up late, and I was watching it. And it's set in 1976.

and yet it was absolutely the closest approximation of what my high school life felt like and was like at the time in terms of the way everybody just sort of like would go and hang out. We wouldn't go like driving around, but we definitely like that part, the whole end part where they just sort of like go gather at that like clearing in the woods or whatever and put a keg out and just like everybody from all the different little like pockets of socialization at the high school would all sort of like end up in the same spot, that felt very, very close to what my high school experience was. And I remember all through high school when I would watch a bunch of like teen TV shows or teen films and like nothing, all those things that were like filmed in California or whatever and were about these really sort of like the heather's sort of social structure. that never felt authentic to what my high school experience was, but dazed and confused really did.

And I remember that being like, on a blank check one time, Griffin referred to Tim Burton as like training wheels, a tour, like your first attour. Oh, totally. And that was very much what Burton was like for me as well. But dazed and confused and link letter was like that for me too, because then I was able to connect dazed and confused to before sunrise to slacker. I went back and I watched Slacker and I was like, oh, this is his thing. This is like, this is what an auteur is, even if I didn't know what the term

autore was at the time, right? That would probably be, I mean, like definitely Tim Burton from me, but also Von Trier and probably Todd Haynes. Sure, sure, sure. Who I came to both of them a good bit later, but yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, dazed and confused. I haven't seen it since I was probably too young for it because, like, I didn't get it when I saw it when I was a teenager and I didn't get what the appeal was. You mentioned the stoned happy face icon, which, like, I guess, dazed and confused invented the emoji. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Uh, congrats to their advertising team. Yeah.

I definitely latched on to the before series, like, right when sunset came out, I saw sunrise right before it because I knew that movie was coming and fell in love with both of those movies. Lost my mind when midnight came out. Like, midnight came out, I think, right after my husband and I got engaged. So I was like, okay. So, like, um, this is. part of my marital counseling. Fantastic. Before sunrise to me, I'm still so, I have such affection

for that first one especially. I know, you know, different people like different ones the best. And I'm such a nostalgic person that like it's no surprise that before sunrise is still my favorite. That it's obvious. Well, you know, I've explained my philosophy

to you where it's like, you're, if you are a sunrise person, a sunset person, or a midnight person. It explains so much about like, your romantic point of view and like your life partner point of view but then everybody is also either

a Celine or a Jesse on top of that Oh that see That's a really interesting point astrology basically it's like which one of the movies do you identify with and then are you a Jesse or a Celine? I'm very obviously a midnight

Celine you are very obviously a sunrise Jesse I think that makes sense I think that makes sense. Before Sunrise is the most sort of like heedlessly romantic. I also feel like the fact that I've never really had a long-term relationship makes me a lot more susceptible to the sort of naive romanticism of Before Sunrise, which I do really love. The other thing, in more like a cultural context thing, is before Sunrise was the movie that Ethan Hawk made right after Reality Bites. And like the two of them in tandem were just thunderous at the time in terms of somebody who was just like oh god like this is the kind of dreamy 90s boy right and the before sunrise version of Ethan Hawk was a lot

easier to sort of swoon over because he wasn't a jerk like Troy Dyer is in reality bites but yeah that movie was was a knockout for me at the time I was explaining this to a friend that like Ethan Hawk is the pinnacle. Ethan Hawk, in that era, is the pinnacle of hot guys in the 90s with butt hair. Oh, yeah. To the point where you don't even think about it as butt hair, he's just hot.

No, I feel like what I might, I feel like my icon for butt hair is, is probably your, uh, your rider strongs in, uh, boy meets world kind of a thing or, um, oh, who else? I feel like there are others. But, like, Ethan Hawk's butt hair was so cool and so, like, sexy that, like, it took us... People tried to emulate it, or, like, people tried to chase that, even if they didn't realize they were chasing Ethan Hawk. To the point that it took us a good, solid decade to be like, oh, this hairstyle looks like a butt. The other thing about... It took, like, James Vanderbeek. Right. Right. Yes, which was a sea change for a lot of things. Yes.

To bring it back to me in Orson Wells, though, because talking about Ethan Hawk, reminds me the fact that, like, Ethan Hawk has showed up in so many Richard Linkletter movies. He's clearly the, you know, the actor who's worked with him the most. Mia Norson Wells is the very rare Richard Linkletter movie. Like, even when I'm talking about when he's making this run of sort of impersonal films with, like, Fast Food Nation and Bad News Bears, he still tends to work with the same actors a lot. And me and Orson Welles, I can't think of a single person in that movie. I could either.

Who was James Tupper in another Linklater movie? Let me look that up. It looks like the most likely, right? It does, but like I don't remember Claire Dane's showing up in another. I could be missing something like very, very obvious. But let me look up James Tupper

while you talk a little bit about that his sort of casting choice. No, you're right, because that struck me too because like even if it's just a person here or there that is significant, you will see someone who is a familiar link later player. Though I guess, like, maybe he's moving more and more away from that because, like, Last Flag Flying doesn't have it. I don't think.

Bernadette doesn't. So, like, maybe he's steering away from it. Although, at least with those, James Tupper has never worked with Linklider besides me and Orson-Wiles. At least with those ones, they're later movies, so you could sort of leave open the possibility that he would, you know, work with them in the future. Because he definitely, like, it's not like he stays with the same sort of four or five people. He keeps opening his circle and sort of, you know, different people recur. But this really had a lot of people I would like to see in another Richard Linklater movie, like someone like Kelly Riley. Yeah, I thought Kelly Riley was very fun.

Perfect for Richard Linklater movies. Yeah. And Christian, Christian McKay is an interesting one because I know I've seen him in other things, but it's always like, why do I know that person? And then I look at the credits, and it's Christian McKay. and I can't still can't like if you ask me to name another Christian McCain movie I'm just like I I don't know I don't have it yeah um yeah I'm just going to keep looking up people from this movie and seeing if they've never worked good we will find someone um because Christian McCain no we can cut out some of this too if it gets a little uh Claire Vanilla Flanagan and the others eventually they will find you eventually we will find this person um But it's a lot, like, Eddie Marsand is an actor who you really associate with, you know, Mike Lee movies rather than, like, letter movies. And Zach Efron was, like, very much his own thing.

It's really interesting to see this early. We talk a lot about, like, why movies had Oscar buzz and why they didn't, and we'll get into that on the other side of the plot description. But I really do feel like when we talk about, like, why didn't this? movie succeed. And part of it is that it didn't really have a distributor. And part of it is, you know, other factors. But I think a big part of it was, I think this movie never really got taken super seriously because it was a Zach Efron movie. And we were not yet at the place where we were like, oh, now we have to take Zach Fron seriously as an actor. That didn't happen. At least in the way it was marketed, they like kind of hung a lot of it on his shoulders.

Yeah. Yeah. yeah like I'll definitely get into I'm finding nobody I find move into the plot description yeah I would just say I'm finding nobody who was in Mia Norson Wells who was in other Richard Linklitter movies

which again makes it very rare for his filmography because he really does like working with a lot of the same people so more evidence to the fact that is significant that you will recognize from another one of his movies yeah exactly all right anyway so we are here to talk about Mia and Orson Wells

directed by Richard Linklater, written by Holly Ghent and Vincent Palmo Jr., adapted from Robert Kaplow's novel based on the revolutionary staging of Julius Caesar, by one Orson Wells of the titular Orson Wells, movie stars Zach Efron, Christian McKay, Claire Danes, Kelly Riley, Eddie Marsan, Zoe Kazan, Zoe Kazan, James Tupper, and Ben Chaplin. movie premiered in TIF in 2008, did not see theaters until November 25th of 2009. Yeah, that was another, that's another killer, is the, not only the weight, but the fact that, like, it didn't get picked up at the film festivals that, uh, we'll definitely talk about. It went to multiple festivals without a distributor, which I do think is surprising. Yes. That had to be, like, one of those situations where it was like, searchlight was all, set or like Sony Classics was all set because it would totally

make sense for like one of them to distribute the movie or there was some type of like contract negotiation like if you pick this movie up you have to push it for Oscar which like is a thing and nobody was prepared to do it that year

whereas like if this was a spring movie it would probably have made some money my feeling is if there were streaming platforms back then it would have ended up on one of them. Like, definitely. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Anyway, Joseph, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description of me and Orson Wells? Sure. We'll see how much, how I end up running out of time, but we'll see. All right. So your 60-second plot description of you and Orson Wells starts now.

It's 1937, and Zach Efron is a high schooler in New York City who has a chance meeting with a young Orson Wells outside the soon-to-be-opened Mercury Theater, as Wells is a repertory company is preparing to open their production of Julius Caesar. Wells, being the eccentric and autocratic artist we all know him to be, hires Ephron on the spot to play the role of Lucius, and so begins Ephron's foray into the world of live theater and the life of one of the great artists of the 20th century. Wells is, of course, an egomaniac and terrorizes most of the people he works with, among others, Eddie Marson is John Hausman, Wells' business partner, and James Menin Trey's Tupper is Joseph Cotton. While Efron falls in Gaga Love with the office manager played by Claire

Dane's at peak luminescence, efferone accidentally sends the sprinkler systems off, and he and Claire Danz ends up sleeping together, and then she sleeps with Wells, and then Efron gets pissed and tells Wells where he can shove it. And ultimately, Wells has a moment of humility and begs Ephron to return for opening night. After a very successful opening performance of Mercury's anti-fascist interpretation of Caesar, Efron finds out that Wells was just bullshitting him and he's fired after all, and Claire Daines is now dating David O'Sullsnik for career advancement. And so he goes back to school and quote-unquote settles for the perfectly lovely young Jewish girl he probably should have been with all along at the end. Done. Orson Wells said Antifa, baby.

He did. He sure did. Yeah, that was, again, it really made me want to watch that production. I thought it was really well done. I thought it's, it was, the movie does the cool trick of making the production of it feel buffoonish enough that you're just like, what are these guys do? These jokers. Like this, this scene that keeps getting cut, the, I can't remember now the character that the guy plays, but the poet, the scene where the poet. Yes. Which is, like, one of the, the scene where he's killed is, like, one of the, like, landmark moments of that staging, too, where, like, you see it in the movie where they, like, talk about the audience, like, gasping with, like, the unexpected, like, not only change to the script, because in the original Julius Caesar, it's a mob that kills him, but in well staging, it's, like, a police force that kills this poet who's speaking out about what happened, the corruption. but the staging of it the way... It apparently got like a three-minute standing ovation. Oh, wow. In opening night, yeah. The staging of it where the police just sort of creep up from the back of the stage, I thought was really effective.

But again, the movie, and again, part of it is my essential unfamiliarity with most of Shakespeare probably contributed to that in the way where it's just like, I don't really know Julius Caesar as a play. So, like, I know, you know, at 2 Brutei, and I know the Iads of March and that's basically it. In fact, there was another line in this that was a familiar

You know, those things were like, you hear a line in a Shakespeare thing, and you're just like, that's why that line has become like so popular, and people say that as a cliche. There was one in this, and I can't remember what it was. But anyway, oh, it's the one from the Joni Mitchell song that she quotes

in the Joni Mitchell song, where I am as constant as the Northern Star. Northern Star. Yes. Anyway. Constantly in the darkness. Where's that? Exactly.

That's from a case of you, which is one of my favorite Johnny Mitchell songs. Anyway. Absolutely. Absolutely. Love to just vibe and have a glass of wine.

Oh, I should. Scarface on repeat that song. Anyway. What I do think this movie does really well is show how much of an impact and how innovative Wells' staging was at the time because like these type of ideas, of recontextualizing classic works to reflect modern concerns or, like, completely

strip it of the type of staging context that we see. Like, this is obviously a play about ancient Rome, right? And then he contextualizes it about what was going on with fascism in Europe at the time. And, like, we see that all the time in theater now. But, like, this movie does put you in a really good position to understand how innovative Wells was and how that was something we hadn't really seen and the impact that it's had since. To the point now where we have Evo Vanhova doing a bunch of dumb shit, like... Screens. There must be screens. There must be screens. Must be screens. Must be part filmed, whatever. Oh, boy. I saw... I saw the Evo Vanhova.

of a network, and that was a test of my patience. You couldn't have gotten me to watch that with Brian Cranston noted one of my nemesuses. Oh, I didn't even think Cranston was a problem in that, but just the staging of it was Off-putting. She was. You didn't get me to

sit my ass in the theater even for Tata-a-Mishloni. She was the Faye Dunaway in that staging. Yeah, anyway. Oh, one other thing, I think this movie does pretty well is it sort of walks up to the line of being one of those movies about how being a great artist

is justification for being a monster. And I think you get a lot of that from the Clear Dane's character where she's just like Orson doesn't like to be criticized. Orson does this, Orson does that? We all put up with it because he's a genius artist and also our careers can benefit from this. And she's very sort of clear-eyed about this and the way she talks about, you know,

sort of being very pragmatic about the, you know, I'm going to date David Selsnick and it's going to advance my career and all this, is on one level feels kind of like, oh, you know, from a male perspective, this must seem very understanding. complicated and cool. But I think the film itself doesn't fall into the trap of lionizing Wells too much. And I think it's, it holds him at a distance. And it doesn't like, it's also not a movie where it's just like, Wells was a monster. But it's just like, he's kind of a fool at times.

And he's kind, and he's full of himself. And he's. Yeah, it kind of occupies this middle space that still allows us to be. fascinated by him and the creation of this piece. It's more frustrating, I think, for the Claire Dane's character. You mentioned that it's like, this movie's coming from a male perspective and it's like, oh, isn't like, not cool, but like. She seems pretty chill with the whole deal, which doesn't seem to be authentic, is my thing. Yes.

Like, she seems very reserved that this is how this goes and I don't have seemingly a problem because I could get what I want. Right. Which is maybe could be interesting. I think the movie just kind of lets it be there. But like, to a certain degree, I think it exposes that side of the business that, like, often gets overlooked entirely, certainly in movies at this era and before it. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't really know what to make of it.

And yet, I think she's great in the movie. Like, I think she lights up. that screen whenever she's on. I think she's incredibly engaging and she makes that character work to the degree that she does because of her performance and because she's so you know

just luminousine is a word I keep saying, but it's true. Like trying to present her as an enlightened woman for the time. Right. Like she's I wouldn't say sexually liberated but she does have like a sense of sexual

like choice in the matter. She's also not his manic pixie dream girl, which I think is probably an active choice on the film's part to not have her be, to not have her be the person who sort of teaches him the ways of the world, even though he does in many ways kind of come of age by falling for her. But like, there's a line there that this film, you know, does a good job of not crossing where she doesn't exist to make him a man, even though she does take his virginity and all this sort of stuff. Well, and the manic pixie dream girl is Zoe Kazan. Who also isn't really a manic or a pixie, you know what I mean? Like, she's just again, she's the, you know. She just likes poetry. She wants to be a writer.

I really liked her. I did really like her. I know the movie really wants us to feel this way about her, but like, I think she nails it. I think she's so good in this. I mean, Zoe Kazan's a great actress and can like absolutely sell dog shit to a cat owner um so interestingly enough about this era of zoe kazan's career what was the first thing you ever saw her in um i think i knew of her as a theater actress before i saw her in an actual movie um i think i mean maybe the first thing i saw her in was it's complicated okay the first

thing i remember the first thing i ever remember noticing her in is Revolutionary Road, which was 2008, which was the year that this was that me and Orson Wells was supposed to come out. And I think those two, and in that movie, she's the young sort of beguiling, lures Leo away from his wife and all this. But that was the first movie that I remember, like, oh, this is an actress named Zoe Kazan, and she's in a thing. And weirdly enough, Revolutionary Road, okay, Revolutionary Road is the first movie I ever remember noticing Zoe Kazan

and David Harbour and Catherine Hahn. Like, for a movie that I'm decidedly ambivalent on, really did a good job of introducing new movie stars into my life and thankful for that. I mean, I think

all the fringes of that movie are pretty spectacular. We've talked about how much I hate Michael Shannon's performance in that movie, but that's another story. I do love Kathy Bates in it, though. But, like, so... You were contractually obligated to love Kathy Bates in it. Yeah. But, like, especially

for Zoe Kazan sort of early years, I thought there was, it wasn't this, like, directly upward trajectory. I thought there were certain things that I liked her in and certain things that I liked her less in. I didn't love her when I saw her in Angels in America off Broadway, playing

Harper. That is a role that's sort of near and dear to my heart. So it's like, it's tough. to compete with the Mary Louise Parker, who lives in my brain, playing Harper. But that was a really good and interesting production that had, among other people, Billy Porter. I saw the replacement cast. The replacement cast is the cast I wish I would have seen, because that had Adam Driver and Michael Yer. The Harper that I saw in the replacement cast, I forget the actress's name.

I apologize. But maybe it's been her that I don't remember her name because she was not very good. She just screamed. You got to see... Yeah, I saw Michael Yuri as Prior Walter. And for as much as I thought Christian Borough was fantastic as Prior, I would have killed to have seen Michael Yuri and Adam Driver.

Well, and I saw Adam Driver as Lewis, which was the first time I saw Adam Driver because I forget if Girls was even on at that point, but I hadn't at least watched Girls, and I was like, this actor is amazing. I think girls happened just after that. I think. Yeah.

That would make sense. Did he work in that role? Because now I'm imagining the Adam Driver persona that I know. He made me completely rethink the character. He would almost have to because like he's so forceful. And Lewis is not. Like he's sort of defined by being, you know. Overmatched.

What that character could be. He worked beautifully. It was fantastic. So jealous that you got to see that cast. Anyway. And now I feel like Zoe Kazan is an actress who I really love. I just, I, you know, movies like The Big Sick and whatnot. And I remember Ruby Sparks really sort of like turning me around, not turning me around, but like really sort of enhancing my opinion of her not only as an actress, but as a writer.

I really like her. She's also pretty cool on Twitter. And it's hard to be cool as a celebrity on Twitter. Like she manages to like keep her head above water in a way that. Very few celebrities do, so good for her. I don't know. I liked her in this movie a lot. We want nothing but the best for her and Paul.

She also kind of has, what's Linda Cardalini's character in Legally Blonde's name? Chutney. Chutney from Legally Blonde hair in this movie a little bit, right? Not totally not. Poor wig they gave her. It's a lot, but she's so lovely. I really liked her. It makes the movie and, um,

on a really kind of satisfying note that he ends up with her, even though I do feel like by far Afron is the weak link of this movie. Oh, yeah. I don't think he's very good in this movie, unfortunately. And I am not anti-Zek-Effron as a rule. We've talked about this.

But like... I hate to say this to, like, that I wouldn't want to see Zoe Kazan because I do really, really like her as an actress, but I think this is also a better movie if you completely cut out everything to do with her character. This movie's way too long for what it is. You could cut out her character and lose at least 10 minutes.

That's fair. But also, again, it's the happiest I was in the whole movie. Yeah, I think, I think, Efron was not ready for a movie like this and a role like this. He just wasn't. Especially when he has to be, like, pouty and upset. Or wise. Like, he becomes sort of wise by the end of the movie, and I don't think that works on him very well either. Yeah.

It's interesting because the actor, he, the actor that was in the role that he played is not the character that he's playing. This is like a complete, his character is a complete fabrication. Right. Though, like, the, apparently the fire alarm bit that you mentioned in your 60-second plot did happen with this actor. So it's like, that's the. only thing that they kept, but it wasn't that it was, while they were still in rehearsals, it was actually during the production. It's because he was bored.

Yeah, that makes sense. Which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I feel bad. I don't want, you know, not to dump on Zach Efron, but like, it's, it, when your lead character, when you're sort of POV character and your entry point into all of this is the weak link, it, it handicaps the movie. There's a lot about this movie that I really do like.

but I think ultimately I get why it didn't ever really catch on as an awards play. This isn't the type of movie that's really going to, like, sing in awards season, even though, like, we haven't talked about Christian McKay, and that's, like, the reason that kept it there. But, like, this would be a perfectly nice movie to see in the spring, you know, when you just need, like, nice movies that are well made. Yeah, totally, totally. if you catch this movie on you know premium cable or whatever and it's you know in the midst of it stick with it it's you know it's a good little it's a it's a okay little movie is what i will say

effron is also at a disadvantage i think too because these like the movies that this movie is similar to i think for the most part better than the movies it's similar to that role is a trope that is always uninteresting to watch it's Like, I thought about my week with Marilyn a lot while I watched this movie and not just because of your spectacular hairspray related. That is why I tweeted that because I was thinking of my week with Marilyn, which I do sing in my head to the tune of Good Morning, Baltimore. You, by the way, in Katie, with your psychotic follow-ups to that, were driving me to giddy-delah. Yes, Katie and I became demons in your mentions because I said, without love should be sung to the tune of Albert Knobbs.

I said you can't stop the beat should be Midnight in Paris, but midnight in Paris That case Um Oh oh midnight in Paris Yeah I was Stop it I'm gonna kill you

I love to be a demon I was trying to think of other movies though in that genre Where it was just like I'm just an ordinary person And I spent a few days with this major star And like and the story's gonna be about me My Live Yeah Also I loved her

Yeah Eddie Redmayne's character in my week with Marilyn is really hard to take. And the gender politics of that make that even worse. But, like, me and Orson Welles, it's the same thing. And I even got that a little bit in film stars, Stone Tye and Liverpool, even though that's about, like, an actual, like, romantic relationship or whatever.

But, like, rules don't apply. Yeah, rules don't apply. But, like, your proximity to these big, great stars doesn't make you more interesting. Like, that's... No. No. I don't know. And this movie, it made it even less interesting because that he's not playing the real person that he was.

So this is just like, you created this character and you made him boring. Also, we see stuff with like him and his mom, him and his grandma, him at school, him at school at the end where he recites a monologue from Julius Caesar and everybody applauds him. And it's just like, A, I don't care and B, bullshit with his classmates of applauded him. Yeah. If somebody does that in a classroom, especially in high school, no one's going to clap for you. Everybody's going to roll your eyes at that kid. We all had class with that kid. No one liked that.

Right. Meanwhile, there's all these really interesting other members of the Mercury Company, which I would have enjoyed maybe spending a little bit more time with. Finding out that Eddie Marsen played was playing John Hausman, I thought was really interesting. And also, much as I thought Eddie Marsen was really good in this movie, a missed opportunity to cast. an Oscar winner to play Oscar winner John Hausman because it's very few of that trivia category of Oscar winners who've played Oscar winners. Well, I thought about this and maybe my timeline is off and I'm pretty sure actually my timeline is. No, it's not. It's not because this was 05 or 06 maybe. But I was like, yeah, but Bob Hoskins already had Mrs. Henderson presents. Wait, what's that connection? No, it's just the Eddie Marsand character in this movie made me think of Bob Hoskins and Mrs.

Oh, okay. I thought you were saying that Bob Hoskins was an Oscar winner who played an Oscar winner and I don't think either of those things are true. No, he wasn't nominated for that movie. No, he was buzzed for that movie, but weirdly enough for as successful as Judy Dench, her Oscar campaign for that. How dare they? He showed his whole peen for that movie. All right. I want to talk about, now that we're talking about Best Supporting Actors, Christian McKay's Oscar Buzz for this and then the Resort. resulting Oscar Field for the 2009 Best Supporting Actor Race. So Christian McKay is essentially an unknown, gets cast in this movie because Richard Linkletter saw his one-man performance of a play called Rosebud at the Edinburgh Festival

and was so impressed by his sort of version of Wells. And as we see in the movie, rightly so, it's a really, really good Orson Wells. He's entertaining to watch. I mean, I really think it probably came down to people not being enthusiastic for this movie, for the nomination to not happen. Correct. Also, nobody saw this movie. Also, nobody saw it. Although, I mean, it gets, you know, it ends up on NBR. We'll mention that in the second.

Well, the thing is, critics saw. Critics clearly watched their screeners that they did because he kept getting, like, second place or third place critics' nominations or, like, the critics groups that do, like, a full nomination lineup. He would get nominated by them. but like not really win any what is what is what is your conception of this performance is this a great performance or is this a great impersonation um i mean i think it's a good performance and entertaining performance i don't think it would be a bad nomination especially against some of the performance we'll get into that it's a great impersonation though it really is like it gets it's and it's not a big

impersonation. That's the other thing. He's not like, you know, um, bellowing these great sort of Wellsism. Because like, this is one of the areas that I think could have made the movie a little bit more interesting. It's, it's like our concept of Orson Wells. Like he appears to be like 35, 40 years old in this movie. When this production of Caesar happened, Orson Wells was 22. Right, right. It's like having a Petulant Timothy Shalame. He's Xavier Dolan doing Julius Caesar on Broadway. Yeah, yeah. Which I think would have a huge impact on, like, the dynamic of the movie if it was this younger guy acting the way that he acts and people still bowing down to him.

That makes us understand, like, that's a huge, like, detail that contextualizes Orson Wells at this time, at least for me. 22 is different in 1937 than it is in 2009. I do get that. Sure. But you're right. Like a younger, a younger concept of Orson Wells definitely puts it in not only a more accurate context, but probably in a more interesting context. I think that's right. Especially when the lead character of the movie is 17, 18 years old. Right. So it's like he's treating him like he's a kid because he has all this power, but like he's barely older than him. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So the 2009 Oscars, which I think are an odd Oscars just in general. This is the first year that we did 10 Best Picture nominees. This was, that's where most of the attention was. And of course, also on the big movie, little movie dynamic between Avatar, Avada, as Arjrador Schwarzenegger says. And the Hurt Locker, the James Cameron, Catherine Bigelow thing.

took up a lot of oxygen, and also then the Sandra Bullock thing in Best Actress took up a lot of oxygen. The Monique thing in supporting actress took up a lot of oxygen. And so I think this is by far, sometimes when I try and calm my brain, I try and remember lineups of supporting actor and actress fields, because my brain is special, is what I'll say. I have a bitch of a time trying to remember 2009 because A, because Christoph Valtz waltzed away with that award, like there was just like he won everything and there was never a question. That's part of the problem too, is like he steamrolled the whole season in a way that like, when you have a performer that does that level of like everybody just hands it to them,

basically, you end up with weird lineups. It's also a lineup where with the exception of Christoph Valtz and Inglorious Bastards, None of the other nominees come from Best Picture Nominees, which is pretty rare for supporting actor. So I only ever remember Matt Damon and Invictus because of who remembers. Invictus is so unmemorable that it now becomes a thing where it's just like, don't forget Invictus, because it's so easy to forget it. He's also basically the lead of the movie, and it was probably of the other nominees, the absolute closest to a Best Picture nomination. Right. But it's also the one where it's still the only one in this field that I haven't seen, and it was such like sort of notorious for just like, I can't believe they're nominating Clint Eastwood's Invictus for actor and supporting actor. Other nominees, Woody Harrelson, I think, is quite good in The Messenger. I think The Messenger is quite a good movie that, like, nobody really talks about anymore. But I think... I don't love the movie, but, like, we've seen Woody Harrelson give that performance. I guess. I think he's very good. I think Ben Foster in that movie is great, and I would have loved a Ben Foster nomination for that. Of course, the notorious Stanley Tucci nomination for The Lovely Bones when Julian Julia was not only right there, but an Oscar nominee in another category, like the fact that Meryl Streep couldn't coattail Stanley Tucci onto the lovely bones, yet they decide, or on in Julian Julia to a nomination.

Instead, they decided. If Julia and Julia had the, like, any scrap of the best picture buzz that I think, like, it would have fairly had for the movies that, the other movies that were in contention to fill out the 10, like, I do think that could have changed, but like. Get me started on a justice for Julian Julia bent and I will never stop because A, not only is that underrated movie, it's, it was so much. Like, it was seen as the Merrill show at the time. And, like, I think justice for Nora Ephron, justice for Amy Adams' character, who is difficult, but she does such a good job with her. Justice for Stanley Tucci.

Justice for that adapted screenplay, which, like, I'm going to tell you some adapted screenplays that got nominated. Well, I'm going to tell you one adapted screenplay that got nominated instead of Julian Julia. And that's fucking District 9. And I will burn a bitch down before I, like, It's just so infuriating.

Well, see, District 9 was the one that probably got that 10th spot, presumably. And it was like, it was down to movies as far as predictions were going in the season, like, what was happening with the precursors, that people were like, well, maybe it could be Star Trek. And it's like, okay, I do really like that Star Trek. But if that's getting close, why the hell isn't Julia and Julia getting close? But the narrative at the time, the quote-unquote wounds from the Dark Knight and Wally not getting nominated meant that Up was absolutely getting nominated for sure. And a blockbuster summer style action movie was getting nominated. And it was either going to be. And weirdly enough, Avatar seemed to not satisfy that itch for people.

Like Avatar being the frontrunner, like you could be like, is that not? action blockbuster enough for you and they were like no it had to have opened in the summer and it's just like okay fine so then it was going to be either star most people actually thought it was going to be star trek and it ended up being district nine and in the meantime you know what else was a summer blockbuster julian fucking julia for god's sake about cooking about chopping onions perfectly and about how great butter is and fucking buff borgignon and it was a blockbuster, and you missed it, you monsters. Anyway. Anyway, Stanley Tucci was nominated for a film called The Lovely Bonds that nobody liked. So stupid. It was about recognizing Stanley Tucci.

I think we all are in agreement that if we want to recognize Stanley Tucci, we recognize Julian and Julia. But what I don't understand about that is like the aversion to Julian Julia is definitely a a male snobbery, but like, why the fuck didn't you have it for the lovely bones? Is it really just the influence of Peter Jackson? Like, I genuinely don't know. You could totally see that movie being a victim to male snobbery, too. So it's like, whatever. Yeah. The thing about the two worst nominations in this category, which are Tucci's nomination and Christopher Plummer for The Last Station, which is not a bad performance, but it's a film that truly nobody saw. And

nobody cared when they did where like even Helen Mirren who is also nominated and Best Actress when Sandy Bullock is like recognizing all of her other nominees I don't even remember what she says about Helen Mirren but it's like oh Sandra didn't see Sandra didn't watch the movie

I think she weirdly says like Helen She has to come up with something she says something like Helen Mirren your like family and I can't I'm not entirely sure Gabby I love you so much you are exquisite you are beyond words to me Carrie, your grace and your

elegance and your beauty and your talent makes me sick. Helen, I feel like we are family through family and I don't have the words to express just what I think of you and Merrill. You know what I think of you and you're such a good kisser. Made me think like, were they in a movie together

or something like that? But it's, it does sort of like, it's little, it's afterthought. I can also just envision Helen Miran being nice to literally everybody. Absolutely, totally. Helen actually would have been a really good addition to Oceans 8. Helen Mirren and that instead of Fast 8 would have been a good swap. You know what I mean?

Anyway. But the thing about the plumber nomination is he had never been nominated before. He was one of those long-standing actors, Donald Sutherland style. We've never nominated him for an Oscar before. And who knew that it would touch off the greatest run for an octogenarian at the Oscars? ever, where all of a sudden he's nominated for the last station, he wins two years later for beginners, and then he gets the wildest goddamn nomination ever, where he steps in for Spacey and all the money in the world and gets nominated for that.

And people thought that that nomination was a fuck you to Spacey, and I really don't think that people nominated him. I think they really like Christopher Plummer that much right now. I also feel like, I think he's really good in the movie, though. I like that movie. I stand up for that movie. I mean, I don't hate that movie. I don't love it.

But, like, I think part of the Plummer nomination for that is, A, that they really love Christopher Plummer. But I think they gave him degree of difficulty points where it's just like, oh, wow, how tough to have to step into that movie and reshoots. You shot this two weeks ago. Right, right. I don't love that nomination, though. I think it could have gotten to other people at the time. Anyway, the last station, again, he's playing Tolstoy. It's a movie nobody saw.

But people were happy that finally Christopher Plummer was an Oscar nominee. So it's a real weird year. It's a year where other things could have definitely showed up there. Now I want to look up the – well, the Bafters are interesting, right? Because that's where McKay does get nominated. The only other Oscar holdovers there are Christoph Waltz and Stanley Tucci in the lovely bones, of course, because you can't not do it. But it's a stronger lineup in general.

It's Alec Baldwin for its complicated, which I think is a really interesting nomination. One I don't hate. I don't know about you. Maybe I need to, I mean, we did a whole episode on it. I can't remember anything I said. He's not in my top five, but I think it's an interesting nomination. Yeah, fine. But the one I think you would probably agree with more is Alfred Molina in an education.

Which Critics Joyce also nominated him for. Yeah, there was a while there. Molina's still never gotten an Oscar nomination, which... I love Alfred Molina. I know. Never tell me his politics. I don't want to know. Oh, do you think he has weird politics?

That's what I fear when it's like, actor you love, but you have no idea what their personal opinions are on anything. Don't tell me. Interesting. I don't know. You know, I won't. But there was, while there were like,

it seemed like he might get a nomination for Frida. It didn't happen. It seemed like he might get a nomination for an education. It didn't happen. Weirdly, the golden... If he got nominated at SAG. Maybe. I'll look that up next.

The Golden Globe nominations matched the Oscars entirely. Which is another... That's the other weird thing. about this 2009 supporting actors is that, like, it's an odd set of nominations that seemed like very resolute among the awards community that year.

I don't know. I don't know, man. It's weird. All right. Sag nominees that year were Waltz, Damon. No, it's the same. It's the goddamn same. Waltz, Damon, Harrelson, Plummer, Tucci. Apparently, those were the five that year that everybody fucking agreed on.

It's so strange. I don't know, man. That's wild. Give me a second. Give me half a second, and I want to look up mine now, because I can't imagine I had anybody from that list besides Christoph Waltz on mine. I might have had Harrelson, actually. But I don't know if I would stick with that to this day.

I'll look up mine, too. I know who my winner is off the top of my head, and you can argue that this is a leading performance, but it was the one that kept boiling my brain the entire season that it didn't get mentioned, especially in the wider context of the season. And that's Anthony Mackey for the Hurluck. Mackey's on my list as well. He's great in that film.

He's the best performance of that movie. Oh, I think Renner is the best performance of that movie. But Mackey's up there. Oh, no, no, no. Anthony Mackey is fucking great. He's great. I think Renner is too. So, okay, yeah, my list. Oh, wow.

I have vaults in sixth place. I was being probably a little braddy at this moment. I think Valtz is very good in Inglorious Bastards. It's arguably a lead performance. It's one of those, like, that movie maybe doesn't have one lead because the narrative is so fractured. But like every scene he's in, he's the focal point. And whatever.

Anyway, my five were, I was very cheeky, wasn't I? Okay, Peter Capaldi for In the Loop is my winner that year. That's definitely on mine. That, it's for a movie that, got nominated for screenplay, it's wild that they didn't take the next logical step and pick like the most spectacular performance from that film. I know they hate comedy, but like he's amazing in that movie. Anthony Mackie. I have Paul Schneider for Bright Star and maybe I'm pretty sure it was just that I fucking loved Bright Star so much. Like Paul Schneider's good in that movie,

but I don't know if I would still pick him out. I think I'd probably put Waltz in that spot and stop being such a brat. I absolutely. stand behind Adam Brody and Jennifer's body. I think Adam Brody and Jennifer's body is so fucking good and so such a fucking bastard and in the best possible way and really embodies that kind of

toxic boy in a band persona that I think he's so good in it. And then I also have Zek Woods from In the Loop who I fucking adore Zek Woods and he's such talk about a brat like he's so such like a weasily little

dick to Anna Klomsky in that movie. I think He's really fantastic. So that's my list. I think... On my long list, Tucci and Julia and Julia. Chris Messina in Away We Go, actually, which I think he's really good in. Fred Melamed in A Serious Man. Cy Abelman!

Okay, so I have Waltz. I have the Tooch for the right one. I also have Anthony Mackey, probably my winner. I have Peter Capaldi, as you do. Our lists are always, like, overlap. stepping on three. And then my fifth is also Fred Melamed from a serious man.

He's great. He's great in that film. National Treasure. He's wonderful. Yeah, I think if I did it now, it would be Capaldi, Mackey, Brody, Valtz, and Tucci. Serious Man is my favorite coming. With Melamette closely after,

and Zach Woods closely thereafter. Yeah. Yeah, ours are better. Sorry Oscars. Like, you fucked up. I mean, they nominated a serious man for Best Picture. why it was nobody nobody was talking about any of the

performances in a serious man which is so stupid because like Stoolbar should be an Oscar nominee for that movie he's probably my winner A serious man gets what two nominations for a picture and screenplay and it's one of those things where it's just like if you're not going to take

this movie seriously don't bother nominating it for Best Picture like I thought it was such a weird like Best Picture nominee for a movie that still they seem to only sort of like tepidly enjoy And, like, I don't love a serious man. I think a serious man is probably the most that I ever get on board with the idea that, like, the Coens are saying, fuck you to the audience.

Like, a serious man to me is a real fuck you to the audience. But I do think it has some real strong points. Its performances especially, I think not, I think if Michael Stulbarg is a known guy, he gets nominated. Right. Because it's insane. Like, it's him not getting nominated for that. and Paul Giamatti not getting nominated for Sideways are in the same bucket for me, which is that I'm sorry that these aren't, you know, big A-list stars, but they give

perfect performances. So shut up. Like, what are we doing here? I mean, the Serious Man Best Picture nomination is probably also like an amalgam of it's the first year of the 10 in a way that they didn't know how to be enthusiastic about a wide set of movies. And that was a Cohen's movie right after no country. We just talked about Burn After Reading. If it had been a 10 the year of Burn After Reading, I think Burn After Reading probably could have been a nominee, even though it didn't get nominated for anything else.

Maybe. Just the way the conversation changes. I think you're right. I think you're right about that. Do we want to say anything else about that year's Oscars before we transition into this rumor that I heard that you have a game for me? I do have a game for you. I don't

know what else to say about the Oscars other than And the men's races are some of the more boring ones in, that's a normal thing for the male acting races to be boring. Yeah. This supporting actor lineup is abysmal. Yeah. Anyway. All right.

Anyway. Christian McKay, you were screwed. You would have been better than most of those nominations. So Joseph. Yes. As we mentioned at the top of the episode, we are celebrating Claire Daines' welcoming into Seven Timers Club on this podcast. Yes. Can you name the seven movies that Claire Dane.

the movies that we have mentioned on this podcast that she stars in. Sure. It's complicated. Or not, it's Family Stone. Family Stone. I got my family, uh, Dramadies, confused. Family Stone, of course, the Great Evening. Uh, Mia Norse and Wells.

Shop Girl. Shop Girl. Four. To Jillian is five. Uh, what was our most, what was the one that gave? her six for us. That was the rainmaker. The rainmaker. The rainmaker. The rainmaker.

Which is her smallest role, to be fair. Oh, Quilt. How to make an American quilt. Flashbacky. She's young Ellen Burstyn in How to Make an American quilt? Or young Ann Bancroft. One of the two. No, she's not young Ann Bancroft because

she, you don't really see much of her. Well, it's the two of them, right? We get young versions of the two of them. The two sisters, right? Yeah, but they have the really contentious relationship. So, like, them as younger people are, like, a key plot, like, a key sequence of the movie. Right. So... I'm going to look that up.

How to make... That's how little she's in the movie. You don't remember who she is. I actually think she's, like, young Lois Smith. Okay, hold on a second. Claire Danes and How to Make an American Quilt. God, I love Lois Smith. I looked up my letterbox log.

for this year the other day just to like see what my 20-20 stats are. Most watched actor of the year Isabelle Upeer,

we know that. Of my second most-watch actor, Lois Smith. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, no, Claire Daines was young Anne Bancroft and Alicia Gorinson

from Roseanne was young Ellen Burstyn. Interesting. Not how I remembered it. Anyway, Joseph. So your most watched is Lois Smith, that's fantastic. Sorry, I didn't give

my first most watch. My first most watch is the O'Pair. Of course. Yes, you are never not watching an Isabel Hooper film. It resets my, it resets my clock, recharges my batteries in a way that's been really valuable in quarantine. I love it. Even if the movie's not great, she's always great.

Anyway, so I have a game for you. Recently, we've been playing alter egos where we list previous characters that their co-stars have been in. That's not the game I have for you today. The game I have for you today is a game I like to call Parental Advisory, where we look at the parents' guide on IMDB and all of their sometimes rather odd descriptions of what makes a movie frightening for audiences, sex and nudity, violence, language, smoking and drinking. Disrespect to elders. Disrespect to elders. Some of these are very fun. But what?

I am going to do for you in this game, I'm going to read you the notes from the parents' guide of these seven films on IMDB, again, across those categories, and you have to tell me what the movie is. Okay. Are you ready? I am ready. All right. We've already listed the seven films, so we're on to the topic. You have to tell me what the movie is. Your first is we see the female lead laying naked on a bed. She is lying on her stomach. and her bare buttocks are seen. This is, of course, the original rump shaker, uh, shopgirl. Uh, nah, nah, nah, shopgirl is correct.

Uh, your next question. An intoxicated man is hit by a car, and we later see his contorted body as his friends find him. Oh, that's poor Hugh Dancy in evening, yes? Yes, indeed. Evening is correct. Your next question, it is strongly implied that female character sleeps with both, Both two male characters. At the same time?

Is that also evening? No. Is that how to make an American quilt? No, it is me and Orson Wells. Oh, right, because it's consecutive nights. I'm taking out the name, any character names. Yeah, yes. A woman is seen with a black eye and somewhat bruised face in one or two scenes.

Yes, and then is avenged by her beloved throwing a wall cabinet at her abuser. That's the rainmaker. Indeed, it is John Grisham's the rainmaker. Next question. A woman is shown naked in a bathtub, and we briefly see her breasts several times unnecessarily. Oh, no. This is why I love this game. People get really butt hurt.

Yeah. Is that how to make an American quilt? And we briefly see her breasts several times unnecessarily. Is that how to make an American quilt? Indeed, it is how to make an American quilt. Yeah. On to your next one. Both the female and male leads are seen drinking wine on several occasions.

Wow. How scandalous. Um, shop girl? Shop girl. Well done. Shop Girls, which was like, it shows her butt, they drink wine. The end. That's it.

That's the show. Yep. A woman poses nude for an artist, and we see her buttocks and brief quick glimpses of her breasts as the man climbs on top of her and begins kissing her. That's how to make an American quilt. Indeed, it is how to make an American quilt famously with a painting and such drawings. Yes, right. All right. Female character makes a comment.

about her youngest daughter had a former boyfriend who, finger quotes, popped her cherry, and then says, the poor guy's still holding out. Guess he's got a taste of something he liked. Oh, my beloved Sybil Stone in the family Stone. Yes, they went into long detail on that note. That line is also funny. He popped Amy's Cherry. It's true.

Next question. A man obviously intoxicated very briefly kisses another man. Oh, evening. Sad gay longing. Sad Hugh Dancy. Pretty much all of the evening parents' guide notes are just the sad things that happened to Hugh Dancy. Yeah. Oh, boy.

All right. Next question. A young woman and her grandmother and great aunt share a joint. Oh, well, that's how to make an American quilt. Yes, that is the sensational how to make an American quilt. This next one. There is no nudity. However, there is a couple of scenes

where you see two teenage girls wearing thongs and in one the girl shows the other girl how her breasts appeal are larger in one suit and then shows the other girl how to walk or strut in a thong bikini. Wow, that is the beach beach blanket jail bait in To Jillian on her 37th birthday.

It is indeed that long run on sentence is from To Jillian on her 37th birthday. A female character car rolls down a snowbank when she is trying to drive away quickly. The car eventually comes to a stop, though, and she is unharmed. Family Stone. The Family Stone. Yeah. Teen vomiting after drinking on her dad's feet. To Gillian. To Gillian. Uh, that's a parenthetical on on her dad's feet. A woman leads a woman, or no, no, no, sorry. A man leads a woman into a shack where she takes off his shirt and undershirt

and they start kissing passionately. Not a shack, honey. Someone was playing mash, and they got shack. They ended up with a shack. In a shack with a homosexual, because I think that's evening. It is evening, but it's not a homosexual. Oh, no, it's Patrick Wilson.

Well, close enough. We're wrapping up the game. Saved a couple good ones for last. Taking the Lord's name in vain. Oh, no. Not the Lord. Taking the Lord's name in vain. The Rainmaker, I don't know.

The Rainmaker. How did you get that? I guess that's probably the audience that would be offended by someone taking the aforementioned Lord's name in vain. I just, you hadn't had one on the Rainmaker in a while, so I sort of gamed the system. Sure, sure. The Rainmakers was also, like, that and all of the bad things that happened to Claire Daines in that movie. Yeah. Oh, here we are.

Second to last question. There are people singing terribly. Oh, God. That could be so many things. It's the parental advisory in frightening scenes they wrote, There Are People Singing Terribly. Orson Wells? No.

There are people singing terribly. Evening. No. It is a karaoke. culture pinnacle to Jillian on her 37th birthday. Stop. Oh my God. I forgot about that. In case that frightens anybody, don't watch to Jillian

if you're afraid of terrible singing. All right. Last question. Here we go. Ten goddamn. Six son of a bitch. One regular bitch. One piece of shit. Three ass. One asshole. Two hell. One flipping off. And three shit.

What a glorious. glorious film. Is this the family stone? It is not. Damn it. I guess they're not that vulgar in the family stone. They could be. Is that Orson Wells? Me and Orson Wells, correct, Joseph. I think you got a good

A-minus on this. Yeah, thank you. I love a good A-minus. Okay. Once again, that is parental advisory. Wonderful. Fair Dane's Seven-Timers Club. Who's chasing her tail? Probably Merrill. Meryl is

is six and ready to pounce. Our other six timers are, of course, Naomi Watts, Anthony Hopkins, and Dermott Mulroney. And also, have we mentioned the asterisk on Matt Damon? Well, because Matt Damon is a voice in one of them, right? He's a cameo in Finding Forrester and a voice in The Majestic, and I think we counted one and not the other. I think you wanted to not count the Majestic.

I think that's right. I don't know. I'm probably just like, I didn't want to have Matt Damon get to a six-timer with like two asterisks. Like, we wouldn't just, we'll wait for the next, you know, real Matt Damon performance. There are plenty of. Listeners, yell at us if you think Matt Damon's one voiceover line in the Majestic counts. Right. God.

It feels like nine years ago that we did the Majestic on this point. I know, I know, exactly. And that was our third Matt Damon episode. Anyway. Anyway, yeah. Orson Welles. Not, I don't think it's a bad movie. It didn't get bad reviews.

No, it's not a bad movie. It's not a great movie, but it's not a bad movie. There was that one line I thought was very cheesy when Wells just goes, like nearly looks at the camera and just goes, how the hell do I top this after Julius Caesar does so well? And it's just like, all right, we get it. Citizen Kane's a coming. We get it. Also, he did a ton of shit before Citizen King.

Also, we didn't mention that we're doing this episode on the eve of Mank. Manks for the memories. Mank you for smoking, other things. And I want to Mank you for giving me the best day of my life. I hate you. Hate you. All right. Anyway, my tea's gone cold now, and I'm wondering why we're not playing the I-A-M-Z. game right now.

Should we move into the IMDB game? Let's. Would you like to explain to our listeners in your best Orson Welles impersonation what the IMPD game is? The problem with me trying to do an Orson Welles impersonation is it becomes Maurice Lamarche doing Orson Wells on The Critic. Did you ever watch The Critic? Yes, I loved that.

When they did the like or... It was the weird nine-year-old that watched The Critic. When Orson Wells was narrating the parents. video will when the parents were presumed dead and also they showed the uh and he was doing it in the style of the um the product placement ads that he was doing sort of late in his career and he was talking about like rosebud yes rosebud frozen peas full of country goodness and green penis wait that's terrible i quit just a handful for the road oh what luck there's a French fries stuck in my beard.

I remember that bit. I feel like if I did an Orson-Wells, it would just become Robert Goulet. That's fair. That's not a bad impressionation. Anyway. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for.

If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years. It's a clue. And if that's not enough, it just becomes. comes a free-for-all of cryptic hints as to the identity of Rosebud and other such Wellesian things. Roshbutt. All right. That's the IMTV game.

All right. So do you want to guess first? Do you want to give first? Why don't I give first? All right. What are we got? What's going on? So I tend to go via the director when I do this.

and Richard Linkletter certainly gives me a wealth of possibilities. One of his movies that nobody really talks about anymore that I didn't even mention in this episode is 1998's The Newton Boys, his Western, which was about a family of bank robbers, bank robin boys. This was Matthew McConaughey and Skeet Ulrich and Ethan Hawk, of course, was in this. and the performer that I have chosen for you is also in this,

and that's Mr. Vincent Dinoffrio. Ah, the Dinoff. Uh, the cell. Of course, that is the first one that you have guessed, and of course that is correct. I have to represent for our weird gays that love the cell. As the demonic serial killer who hangs himself from the, uh, yanking off over dead bodies.

Yes, Vincent Donofios, the cell is correct. Okay, men in black. Yes, as the Eggers suit. He's wearing an Edgar suit. Sheffon Fallon is so good in men and black. Is there TV? No. Okay, so no...

No criminal intent. Right. Jurassic World No, that's a very good one. That is Strike Owen. Nobody needs to remind it that that movie exists. Full Metal Jacket. Correct.

Full Metal Jacket, Private Pile. The look, I mean, we've seen it, clipped a bunch of times. But the look on his face, when he's in the bathroom, when he's got the gun, and he's sort of like staring through his upper eyebrows at Matthew Modine, It is so... God damn, frightening. Stanley Kubrick can shoot a shot. Anyway, yes, three out of four with one strike.

Okay. Huh. I don't... I know he's in the Salton Sea, and I remember one time you gave me someone in the Salton Sea, and I think I got stuck on it, and I don't want that to happen again, but I'm going to hope that I'm lucky enough this time.

It's not that. So I think it's one that you got stumped on for someone else, and I'm going to guess the 13th floor. It is not the 13th floor. I love that as a guess for you. Before I give you your remaining year, I want to give you a upcoming role of his in a film that I know you are looking forward to. Do you know he plays Jerry Falwell in the eyes of Tammy Fay?

baby yes i do know that he plays jerry fall well in the eyes of tammy fay this movie that's probably going to be bad but i am i'm excited for it absurdly excited for this movie i think jessica chastain is actually perfect jessica chastain's internet presence makes her perfect for tami fay it's a great earnest, like, unself-aware, uh, presence. Chastain. Denephrio, Andrew Garfield, Cherry Jones. Andrew Garfield will be the chaos agent in that movie. Andrew Garfield is James Baker.

I am, uh, or Jim Baker. Uh, I am super looking forward to. Anyway, uh, your remaining year is 1994. 94. 94. Okay. So pre men and black. Yes.

Huh. What year was Strange Days? Strange Days was, I believe, 95. Yeah, so that's not the answer. He, I can't remember his role in Strange Days, but I bet it's frightening because everybody... I know what this is, and I feel real dumb now, and you did this on purpose. I did. Because he plays Orson Wells in Edwood.

He sure. And we also talked about Tim Burton at the top of the episode. Yep. You tried to incept it into my brain. I didn't come to this selection because he plays Orson Welles and Ed Wood. But when I saw that that was on his known for, I was like, yeah, that's the one I got to pick. He is a good Orson Welles, though. Yeah, he is.

What a wonderful film, Ed Wood. That's a really cool known for for Vincent DiNofrio. I'm happy with that. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's pretty iconic. Yeah. All right.

So for you, I just went to the Oscar route. We talked about this performance that we hate in comparison with one that we love. Joe Reed, I gave you noted a jerk when talking about the type of vermouth I use on the internet. I gave you the toch. Oh, no, don't take it personally when he slights your vermouth. I take it personally that he doesn't. post daily cocktail videos because

very handsome I thought you were going to say being a jerk about Robert De Niro did you ever show you or have you seen the clip on the view from when they were promoting the Devil Wars Prada and it was Meryl and Stanley Tucci and Anne Hathaway on the view and

Meryl and Tucci were talking about her I thought I had mentioned this on the podcast before or maybe not, her games of charades that she does at her house and how the best ones at charades are, oh, fuck, I can't remember who else, but like Stephen Sondheim and somebody were like, they're the best ones. And Tucci just goes to Meryl, he goes, tell him who the worst one is. And she goes, I can't.

And he's like, tell him. He's like, I can't say it, but you can say it. And she just says Robert De Niro is so bad at charades. That tracks. That tracks. It's a really good moment. I love it. All right.

Stanley, the Tuch. I want someone to do an impersonation of De Niro playing charades, by the way. Anybody wanting to put that out in the universe, please do. I will appreciate it. The Tuch. Stanley Tucci is in a billion things. High and lowbrow. Like, I'm going to risk pissing myself off all again and going to guess Julie and Julia.

No. God damn it. Is the lovely bones one of them? The lovely bones, yes. Of course it is. We live in a cruel and unfeeling universe. Of course it is. Okay.

You know what I'm going to guess? Because this has shown up for other people, I'm going to guess burlesque. No. Fuck. All right. So that's your two wrong guesses. Just give you the years. 1996, 2013, and 2015.

So not Devil Where's Prada 2013, 2015, and 96 has got to be Big Night. Big Night, yes. All right, 13 and 15. 15 is Spotlight? Yes. Big Night Spotlight. He's not in Moonlight.

2013 Zituch. It's not easy a. It's not the Transformers movie he's in, is it? No. Okay. I think that came earlier. He's in a Transformers movie, right?

That's a whole goddamn thing. All right. 2013, it's not EZA. It's not any of the movies where he plays gay or gay adjacent. Oh. Okay. I mean, not explicitly gay, but you can't tell me he's not making fun of somebody who dogged gay rumors for a while.

Well, this has some layers to it. Okay. He's not making fun of somebody. Is it a comedy? You weren't fully off base by guessing Transformers. So it's an action movie? an action movie that also hmm how do I want to say this without completely giving it away

this movie made a lot of money okay oh is it is it the Marvel movie he's in it's not a Marvel movie it's a DC movie no well the goddamn it don't say a Marvel movie that way because I you're doing the password rule

You're doing the password rule Where you say a word Weird way in, I assume it's the opposite All right It's not a Marvel movie It's not a Harry It's a franchise though Yes

It's not Harry Potter No It's not It's a franchise we don't talk about it anymore We want to let it go Oh it's hunger games It's uh What was the Hunger Games that year

Was it the first one? No I don't remember what years The Hunger Games Catching Fire. It's the second one. Catching Fire is the one that will show up on. I really like Catching Fire. I think Catching Fire is the best one, maybe. Tucci's really funny in those movies. He's making fun of Ryan Seacrest.

Oh, of course. He's making fun of Ryan Seacrest. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forget so much about those movies. That franchise really has, like, exited the consciousness. But yeah. Yeah, people just want to let it go. That's true. It's true. We're sick of dystopias, but, like, we got real invested in the hundred your games real quick and we did it was just time yeah it's true could it be could be the last two fell off the deep end of quality and they're terrible Stanley Tucci should have a

more representative uh IMDB known for and by that I mean it should be um the devil wears Prada julia burlesque and easy a i i e uh the movies where he's either playing gay or uh gay fabulous like his character like his His parent character in EasyA is not gay in that film, but he definitely experimented in his... Like, he's definitely probably bisexual, right? He's the cool dad that sucked a dick in college. That was a lot.

Yes, sorry. Thank you. Easy A, a film, we talked about this. I don't need to mention it again. Frustrating that it's not better because Emma Stone is so good. Sure, sure, sure. Anyway, that's it. That's all I got.

All right. Cool. Cool. I think that is our episode. If you want more This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. Please also follow us on Twitter at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. We're currently taking submissions for this month's mailbag episode. So you guys have two weeks to send us your questions.

You can either tweet at us at Had underscore underscore underscore Buzz or email us at had oscarus at Gmail.com. Once again, any questions you want to ask us, whether it's Previous Oscar-related current Oscar season, please don't make them be depressing COVID questions. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you and yourself? You can find me resolutely not talking about current events, usually on Twitter at Joe Reed, read-spelled REID.

I am also on letterboxed as Joe Reed, read spelled the exact same way. You can watch me there frantically trying to catch up on the films of 2020 as I try and make it to year-end, list season, even though the Oscars won't be for another four months after that. So catch me over there. Fantastic. I am Chris File. You can find me on Twitter at Chris V-File, also on Letterbox under the same name. That's F-E-I-L. We'd like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mevious for their technical guidance. Please

remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcast. That now includes Spotify. Yay, we're on Spotify. A five, star review in particular really helps us out with Apple podcast visibility. So please be the Brooks Atkinson calling our Claire Danes, even though we keep changing the opening night on you. Promise our podcast comes out all the same day.

That's all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye. oh, oh, yeah.