This Had Oscar Buzz - 125 – Widows

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

You asked for it and it’s finally here! To close the year, we are doing another Listeners’ Choice episode and the landslide victor is 2018′s Widows. The follow-up to Steve McQueen’s Best Picture winning 12 Years a Slave, Widows places Viola Davis at the head of a group of Chicago women caught in the middle of political corruption when … Continue reading "125 – Widows"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. No, I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Heck. Something happened tonight. Something bad. Mr. Mulligan, your family's been involved in Harry's life for many years. I need help.

I don't see what I can do. Our husbands aren't coming back. We're on our own. My husband left me the plans for his next job. All I need is crew to pull it off. Why should we trust you anyway? Because I'm the only one standing between you and a bullet in your head. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast hustling Merrill Streep into the back of a getaway carriage.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with my loyal driver with a gaudy Super Bowl ring. Chris File, hello, Chris. Once I shuffle off this mortal coil, once I have disappeared, you will find that ring in your mailbox in an envelope or something like that. You will know that Daniel Kaluya has killed me. Poor, what's his name, Garrett Delahunt's character, Buddy, Buster, Billy, Bash.

The one time Garrett Dillahunt has played a character who has probably bathed within the past season. Yeah, he's always, he had a very long streak of, do you remember when he... Just playing dirty men. Do you remember when he was on Deadwood as two separate characters in two separate seasons where he were just like... I never watched Deadwood, but that absolutely tracks. He's a perfect fit for that universe. So, yeah, absolutely. Bash Babyac is his full character's name according to Wikipedia, as I'm looking at, which...

He's baby. Wonderful. He is baby. He is canonically baby. This, I'm not a Chicago person. I visited Chicago a couple times, but I did not grow up there, or I don't know it. But, like, this feels like a very lived-in Chicago movie, right? Like, this feels like, feels chicago-y.

I would like to talk to Chicago people about that. But as of now, my uninformed opinion says that this film directed by a British man is very Chicago-y. So, we'll see. You know what he was doing? He understood the assignment. I get so, I get so trepidacious every time I say British now, because I got, got chastised during our Ben-Wishaw-Donnell Gleason conversation about throwing the term British around when I meant...

How dare you? The United Kingdom is complicated and confusing you guys. It's not my fault. Not be able to distinguish different types of white people. It's a very important skill. Okay. Yeah, we're talking about widows, Chris. We're finally doing it.

It's happening. Widows. I feel like we were experiencing some technical difficulties earlier. Yeah, spoiler alert. This is the second time we've attempted to start this podcast. But we started on the foot of things we didn't like about the movie, namely the same Robert Duval joke that I've maybe said every other episode of this podcast. I feel bad every time we make that joke. Okay, A, I don't think Robert Duval is bad in this movie.

B, every time we make the joke about Robert Duval just showed up and played himself in the movie, I feel like we're disparaging Robert Duval as a racist, and that is not what my intention was when I first made that joke. It was just that, like, he's just like this character sort of shuffles into the movie and grumbles at Colin Farrell a few times and sort of, you know, says something to Viola Davis at one point. Literally screams the word I'm old at some point, right? Yeah, yes, yes. It's a very odd character, but as I was sort of conveying to you in our previous attempts to start this podcast, I do think there's something intentional about the fact that he's this dottering, barely coherent, the only thing he's holding onto is his rage, white master of the universe, right? who has slip on his control of this city, whatever control that he had as, you know, this lifelong alderman of this little section of Chicago, is slipping away. And he's furious about it.

He hates his son, seemingly. He hates black people. He hates the people who live in this section of the city that he's been in charge of. And he's just sort of raging against everything. And I think that all to me feels, A, intentional and be well conveyed by Robert Duvall. So I get where, like, he's, okay, fine, we'll agree to disagree on that. I don't think there's it. I don't think anybody's bad in this movie.

I really don't. I feel, I don't know whether I'm just. In her two scenes. Okay, but what is, again, what is Jackie Weaver supposed to be doing? She's supposed to be playing this, like. Jackie Weaver showed up and said, I'm in this. The Sopranos, right? Like, this is what this movie is, right?

And no, Jackie, it's not. Anyway, the point of bringing up the things we don't like about the movie that we don't think are good off the top is that this is probably about to be a two-hour gush session about this movie. Right. As it should be, it's a fantastic movie. Yeah. That's why they voted this. I feel like that's, they didn't vote us to talk about this movie to pick it apart and bash it because. No, we are, we are well.

on the record as being big fans of this movie. And for the record, that is why I particularly dragged my feet on doing a widow's episode. I know when this ended up winning the listeners' choice, there were a couple people who tweeted back at me my earlier indications that we would never do widows on this podcast. Because it was all listeners wanted us to do because we loved it. and, like, the original idea. My thing is, and again, this all stems from the fact that we didn't put it on our 2018 in-memorium video, our little, bitchy little thing. Because, like, A, at the time, the wounds were too fresh. And I didn't feel like, I felt like that little video that we made was a little, you know, jabbing the knife in at some of these, you know, the front runner and the mule.

Right. beautiful boy like all these sort of movies that were you know not as good as widows and it's worth having a little fun with too and it's like it would have felt shitty to have made fun of widows. Right at the moment

I didn't feel like kicking widows while it was down at the moment where it was the best movie of that year that didn't get any Oscar nominations and so I think I stubborn speaking of mules that I am dug my feet in and we're just like no we're not doing it. It's too good of a movie. Our thing is about Schadenfreude, and we're not going to

have a laugh at widow's expense. And like, of course, when I took a second to think about it, we've talked about plenty of movies on this podcast that we like. And we've talked about plenty of movies that we feel like would have been worthy enough to be a Best Picture nominee, but just weren't. And we're still not a podcast that's like we're talking about movies that should have been. We are not that podcast. We will never be that podcast. We're not. But there is a converse, There's enough of a conversation around why widows didn't get an Oscar nomination, didn't get any Oscar nominations that is worth having. And I, and I realize that. And it's multi-pronged, too. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. There was a lot going on. It's still very frustrating to think about. I was sort of pouring through the, because when I initially made the outline and we're talking about, you know, listing the reasons why it didn't end up getting any Oscar nominations. And I, one of the, of the things I sort of initially wrote down was it was completely and inexplicably left out of the precursor season. And like, that is not entirely true, although it's emotionally true,

because like it didn't end up winning anything major or get anything. But like, it did show up. She got, Viola Davis got a BAFTA nomination. Elizabeth Debicki was runner up for a couple of the big supporting actress prizes. And I think the film itself ended up a runner up on one of the big critics associations lists, but I honestly remembered it doing even better in the precursor season. Oh, that's interesting. And when I went back and looked at it, I was like, I'd forgotten that it was no Golden Globe nominations. I'd forgotten that it really wasn't any significant category even for critics' choice, which like, I think we can stop saying that critics' choice is a major precursor at this point.

Except for, like, it's, it's the tail wagging the dog, right? Where it's just like, it's, the Critics' Choice reflects the season. It doesn't influence the season. But, like, I think we can look back on it as, like, these things were in the mix at the time. I think it's also the thing about Critics' Choice now is that they are a large, a very large voting body. And, like, that is significant because, like, the Globes are not. And it tells, it can tell you how consistent. census is building in a certain way that because it's a large voting group like the Oscars

are a large voting group that like something that's more idiosyncratic like the Globes would. Right. Right. No, I think that that's true. There's no real analog precursor to what Critics' Choice can reveal in that way. But I think in my memory of it, this whole, it was like by the time it got to Oscar nomination morning, there was not even a glimmer of hope in my mind that Widows was going to end up nominated. for anything because it was so already passed by and passed over and it's a bummer it's a it's a bummer but it's not entirely for things that we'll get into it's not entirely the voters fault there's a whole lot of like business side things as to why this movie got screwed

over oh i'll blame the voters namely the fox and disney buy over that we'll get into sure yeah you you have a better handle on that than i do I will just sieve at anybody who had an Oscar ballot that year. That especially when we talk about the 2018 Oscars, which we will, and some of the movies that did get nominated and win Oscars that year, it is especially maddening. Just like absolutely. At the very least, it was a strong best actress field,

or else I would be even more angry and upset about this, because Viola Davis is so good in this movie. It's maybe my, I don't know, favorite performance is a lot. She's given some fantastic performances. It is the movie of hers that I most eagerly will sign up to rewatch. Like, I will watch this movie so many times in my lifetime already. This is the first movie I've watched twice in quarantine. Oh, that's fun.

That's really cool. It's wonderful. It's a good fucking time. It's two hours and nine minutes. Am I misremembering? Or is that... No, it's just over two hours, yeah. Yeah.

It flies by as far as I'm concerned. And also, it has... It's one of those movies that, like, has so many scenes, just like great individual scenes that I could, like, go back and watch in total isolation, right? Where it's like... I could give you 2,000 words right now. on just the moment of Viola Davis in the sauna, steaming out that one woman who comes in and interrupts them?

One of my favorite moments in the entire movie. It's so good. The sauna scene's fantastic. The scene where Brian Tyree Henry comes by and threatens the dog is astounding. The scene where Daniel Kalulia ends up shooting the guy who fucked up their deal of some sort or another, makes the guy rap for him and then shoots him in the head, is insane. The dialogue-free scene with Viola Davis and Cynthia Arrivo in the car at the end of the movie. The scene where Cynthia Arrivo and Viola Davis first meet, where Cynthia Rivo says you need to watch how you talk to me. Yeah, they instantly decide they do not like each other. The scene where Elizabeth Tobicki buys the van at the auction, I think, is amazing. Elizabeth's Bicke going into a Polish dialect so that she can get someone else to buy guns for her. Yeah. Okay, so that's maybe my Robert Duval in this movie is.

this movie loves guns. Like, this movie fully buys into the idea that, like, guns will be the great equalizer for women. And that's my least favorite thing about this movie. No, no, because the scene where she gets those guns at a gun show, the button to the scene is the little girl saying to her mom and convincing her, you always say that a gun is a girl's best friend, mommy. And, like, that is... That's a laugh line, though. That's not a... Yeah, but the movie sides with, like, here's why guns are a problem, because you people just think that they're, it's these white people showing up at gun shows, like, thinking that they're, like, whatever.

I don't know. Part of their identity. I don't know. I think this movie is very gun forward. It's not, it doesn't ruin things for me, but, like, it's definitely my least favorite thing about the movie. I mean, they need the guns to pull off what they're doing, but I don't think that this is a pro-gun movie. I would disagree. But anyway, I still catch my breath at that shot at the diner at the end that Sean Bobbitt frames where it's Viola and Debicki in two mirrors at right angles.

I couldn't believe it. The shot in the car that everybody talks about that takes Colin Farrell and his assistant, played by Molly Coons, who I totally picked out, by the way, the first time I watched this movie, I'm like, is that the girl? from the wise kids, from Stephen Cones, the wise kids, and I was totally right, and I was totally vindicated, and I was very proud of myself, but that scene where it takes them from speaking into, I can't remember, I can't remember the number of the ward. It's like the 18th ward or something like that. From that little press event to his home, and you watch the neighborhood in this, like, not very long distance, go from, like, this kind of rundown very, like, neglected by the city area into his fucking mansion in, you know, whatever corner of the neighborhood

that he lives in. And it's just like, it's no time at all. And you don't see them. You only hear them. And like the dialogue that they're going through where like he's like, have you ever slept with a black man? And she's just like, why is that important right now? like what you're listening to versus what you're seeing and like the context of the two is so infuriating. I will be very interested to dive into our feelings about Colin Farrell in this movie, who I think is very good, but like it's a real particular Colin Farrell performance. I will say the accent is wild and crazy for sure. I'm excited to talk about this, Chris. I'm glad we're doing this.

So before we get too far into it, though, we need to talk about why we're talking about this, which is that this won our listener's choice. So our listener's choice, we're at episode 125. So this listener's choice, we did things a little bit different. We typically pick a handful of things that we think either our listeners have asked for or appeal to different parts of what we do. And then you guys get to pick from four titles on the listeners poll. we opened this one up to all suggestions from listeners with some criteria we said no 219 movies we said uh what was our other criteria like that it's got to have Oscar buzz yeah in some type of way we did get submissions that absolutely did not but that was fine we love you anyway if that if that's what you submitted and it really wasn't in the conversation like there wasn't you know a ton of people throwing out those type of titles. Right.

So it's like they didn't really sway voting in any way. Right. We had 202 movies, though, on our spreadsheet. Over 200 movies. Thank you guys for throwing out those, your votes. It was a lot of fun tallying these and see how things went. However, we always kind of knew Widows was going to win. You especially, you said from the very beginning, you're like,

Widows is going to win this and it's not going to be close. And I was like, I don't know. there are other things? No, you were totally right. From the initial votes, widows had three times as many votes as the second place movie. Yeah. Yes. But I will say the scrum to get

to those other three slots in the poll was fun to follow because it was not always. It ended up being Marguerette, the shipping news. I always sound like a freaking tool when I say Margaret, even though I know that that's how you pronounce it in the movie. Whatever. Margaret, the shipping news and young adult ended up

being the other three finalists. Young adult was the one that made the, like, last surge. Late surge. But, like, at different points, white oleander was up there, birth was up there, life itself came very close, collateral beauty came very close, never let me go, came very close. The surprise for me, I will say, was the support that there was out there for Star 80,

which is the Eric Roberts, is it Margot Hemingway is in that movie, or is it Mariel Hemingway? Merriole Hemingway. Some of us for that movie were mean, though. Some people were saying that we were too young to know what these movies are, and that's not true. I was fully flattered by that. I don't know why you took that as mean. Old movies, which is not true.

If anybody wants to tell me that I'm too young to remember a movie from 1983, thank you. You were very happy to hear that. My stars, yeah. But now I really want to do that movie. It would be the most, it would be the oldest movie we'd be. done. It's from 1983, but it's a Bob Fossey movie. It got Golden Globe nominations. It's supposedly a really good movie. I've never seen it. But now I really want to do it. I just feel

like any of, except for maybe talking about Fossi, I felt like Star 80, it would be a little bit like the conversations we would have about this were already just covered on the amazing Polly Platt. You must remember this miniseries. we can find other angles. We're good at what we do. Sure, sure, I guess. We could talk about the Golden Globes in the 1980s.

Like, that's really fun. I don't know. There's a lot of, there's grounds. It's hard to talk about some of those old movies. We've talked about this in some of our oldest episodes, like nuts, where it's like, you know, it's about the evolution of Oscar and what campaigning became. Like, you know, it's a very different beast once you hit the late 80s and, like, the machine actually starts for what it is. Yeah. Like Oscar Buzz actually.

becomes a thing. But one of the things that I was most heartened by was, because our podcast has, it's, there's a niche to our podcast, right? It's a type, a specific type of movie. And sometimes I talk to people who, you know, listen to us and they really like us and whatever. And they're just like, how long do you think you can go with this? And I'm always just like, there's plenty. And every year there's more. And looking at this spreadsheet. It would take us four years to satisfy everybody's Just on this list. And this list is absolutely not everything. So, like, don't worry, we've got the material.

We can stick around, and we can do this. There's so many things that we could do. Some of the ones that got multiple votes are really interesting to me that I don't know if I would have even necessarily considered a movie like The Good Dinosaur, which is really interesting because you talk about, like, animated movie buzz. And that's really cool. Some of the stuff on here where it's like, I can't believe we already haven't done Amelia or factory girl or live by night for Christ's sake

there's just a lot of ways we've been like actively avoiding doing live by night we have to though at some point it's got to be done it's got to be done two votes for Furious 7 is very funny to me you guys probably not it's probably not going to happen but god bless you all I love you all so much but Joe knows that I I don't want to watch a furious Well, and also, like, the Oscar buzz case for Furious 7 is probably a stretch, I will say. I mean, they campaign. That was one of the things where I'm like, yeah, they mounted a campaign, but it wasn't real.

Right. Like, I know people love those movies. It's not any of those movies. I love those movies. Yeah. Like, it wasn't real. Like, when I got that screener in the mail, I was like, yeah, but this isn't going to happen. They're doing, like, the nice thing for their talent that, like.

Right. also like coming out and saying this movie should be a best picture winner or whatever he said it's like but it's not going to be right um the oscar campaign for furious seven and i'm not equating um vin diesel vin diesel is a cool guy like vin diesel whatever but like he's not on the level of somebody like donald trump but like the appeasement to vin diesel of putting on an oscar campaign for furious seven is not unlike um people pretending that Trump could still win this election for Donald Trump's satisfaction, right? Like, it's a little bit, like, let's put on a little pageant for this guy who's in charge. People look at me like I'm crazy when I've said this, or, like, people just don't get it. But, like, I haven't seen any of those movies because, like, I showed up to the movie theater on that movie's opening weekend to see something else. Which one?

I forget which one it was. They all are a blur. And the lobby was truly, like, showing up at a Trump rally. Okay. And that happened to me on the next one as well. And I don't even go to the movies when those movies open because, like, I mean, I don't live in middle America, but, like, it was truly, like. Yeah, I live in Ohio. But, like, I live in a city in Ohio.

Sure. And, like, I don't think it's fair to paint the fan base of that movie that way. I don't think that's accurate, is what I will say. No, that was my experience of going to the movie theater when those movies open, and it's just like maybe I'll watch them at home sometime. Fine, watch them at home. I like them. I think they're really good.

Anyway, thanks to everybody who made a suggestion, made a vote for listeners' choice, and we're happy that we're doing Widows, but we will be pulling from this list. This will be a very good resource for us as we pick our movies going forward. Absolutely. Joe, the only movie that at any point in the voting passed enough votes than to have been ahead of widows, only for a few days or two, was the shipping news. Our dear, dear, the shipping news, which at this point...

Our beloved bridesmaids, the shipping news. In this season where I've watched a Charlie Brown Christmas twice, and probably will watch it three or four times in total, for the holiday is done. I was reminded of poor dear Charlie Brown, who kept running up to that football, and Lucy would just yank it away. And that, to me,

feels very much like the case with the shipping news. And I know that there are shipping news partisans. When we had the poll that widows... It took potential this had Oscar buzz movie. Widows jumped to the lead of that pole and was not relinquishing it. And I would see some of the comments that was like, and all four of the movies, by the way,

had comments that were like, come on team, come on team Marguerette, let's pull this together. Come on team young adult. But it was team shipping news that I found to be so poignant where they were just like,

one of these times it's got to happen, right? One of these times it's got to win a listener's choice poll for this had Oscar buzz because, A, it should. That's the thing. It should be a movie we talk about. It should win one of these polls.

It is the ultimate. If you told me that we'd get through 125 episodes without ever talking about the movie. I was told you you'd lost your mind. And so a little bit of a schism then developed during the voting for this between Chris and I, but also between, I think, some of our listenership, which is, do we do the shipping news sooner than later in order to give the people who want this episode a frickin' break? Or do we turn the shipping news into the eternal Charlie Brown, the eternal bridesmaid,

the Buffalo Bills of this podcast, if I break. up something personal and painful. The Susan Lucci, sure, yes. But the thing about Susan Lucci is she did eventually win. Now, do we put the shipping news through 19 years of torture to get to that point? And then Shamar Moore finally, you know, lets everybody know that we would be doing the shipping news. Or do we just like, do we give everybody a break and just do the shipping news? I am in favor of, let's do the shipping news sometime soon.

Chris was more in favor of, let's turn this into a thing. I am in favor of dragging this out for any other listeners' choice polls that we can, because how cool is it going to be if people rally around the shipping news, and the shipping news wins? All right. I think that's a success story we can all get behind. The shipping news, it's been up for three different listeners' choice polls. We've done four in total.

The only one it wasn't on was when we did our 2003 miniseries. Didn't we do a listener's choice for summer movies? Or was that not a poll? No. We haven't done. This is our last one we've done since our Cloud Atlas episode. Okay. All right.

Which Cloud Atlas is the best performing we've ever had on a poll for listeners' choice. It'd even be widows by a single percentage point. It was worth it. shipping news got dead last in the last two polls in the first poll we did it barely passed reservation road and i think that's because even a lot of people who follow the type of movies we talk about have fully forgotten about reservation road yes true yes so it's like the shipping news has a very vocal this at oscar buzz fandom or uh a desire for an episode but it's always last in the polls. For all of our listeners

who maybe didn't vote for the shipping news and when they saw it in the poll, and your votes are valid. But let me just remind everybody, this is a film set in, I want to say Newfoundland. It is Newfoundland. Where

Julianne Moore plays a woman named Wavy Prouse, and Kate Blanchett plays a character who, if I'm not mistaken, her character's name is, and I'm going to look it up on MDB because Petal. Right. Her name is Petal. And Judy Dench plays a woman named Agnes Ham. Q. Angie Jordan saying ham. Pete Potslethwaite, the late great, Pete Pothelthwaite plays a character named Tert Card.

Kevin Spacey, the regrettable Kevin Spacey, plays somebody named Coyle. Gordon Pinsent, away from her, plays a character named Billy Pretty. um, Reese E Fons plays a character named Beaufield, Nutbeam. You want us to talk about this movie. You guys, I'd just, character names alone, I get it, are not the B'all, but takes her abusive brothers ashes out to the outhouse

and then dumps them in the outhouse and then uses it. It's a wild movie. This, yes, all of this is true. All of this. And all under the guise of pleasant as you please, Lassa Halstrom. Like, it's, it was the Lassa Halstrum movie after his two consecutive Best Picture nominees. And they were like, well, we can't lose because we got the shipping news.

It's based on an acclaimed Annie Pruill novel. A Pulitzer Prize winner. Jesus, I forgot about that, that it was a Pulitzer Prize winner. Again, you guys want us to talk about this. The novel is somehow less absurd than the movie is. Yeah. All right. Film is a very literal art form sometimes.

It would have been interesting to have done the shipping news this week because we're coming up on Christmas. And people always, in the past, well, I guess there was only two so far. But people were surprised when the second Kevin Spacey video showed up on Christmas morning and it's going to happen again. Like a lump of coal in our stocking. Christmas Day, we will have another bizarre Kevin Spacey video. where he's trying to stake some type of comeback because he thinks he was wronged for being abusive. He'll be refusing to wear a mask, and it'll be some sort of Trump illusion, and it'll be a whole thing. I'm ready to leave Frank Underwood in our cultural past, and I believe everybody else is to.

Anyway, we have really digressed, Chris. We've gone into sight business. But that is all the business about our listeners' choice. Guys, thank you so much. we are so happy to finally be talking about widows. So let's talk about widows then. All right, Chris, we are a half an hour in, so of course this is one. This is when we do our 60-second plot description.

And it's up to you, my dear friend, to do it. Are you ready? Oh, I think so. There's a lot of plot. But we will see. We will see if I can do this. All right. We're talking this week about widows, finally, directed by Steve McQueen, written by

Gillian, Flynn, and Steve McQueen based on a 1983 British mini-series starring Viola Davis, Elizabeth Debicki, Michelle Rodriguez, Cynthia Arrivo, Colin Farrell, Liam Neeson, Brian Tyree Henry, Daniel Kaluja, Robert Duval, Carrie Coon, Garrett Dillahunt, Jackie Weaver, Lucas Haas. The list goes on and on and on. It's very well-cast. It's a very well-cast movie. All right, Chris, I have one minute poised on the clock if you already... Oh, wait. I need to tell everybody that it world premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival on September 8th, 2018. We were there. We were there. We saw it with a friend and former guest Nick Davis. That's right. It was such a good. That was a fun screening. That was a very

fun screening. That was amazing. 8 o'clock in the morning. It was raining outside. I went into the movie pissed about the like shishi industry people complaining that they had to wait in the rain first thing in the morning. That's right. That's right. Like she's so damn special. All right. Yes, it did end up opening wide on November 16th, 2018, and we'll talk about what happened thereafter. But until then, Chris, why don't you give us a 60-second plot description of Widows if you are ready? Taking a deep breath, I think I'm good to go.

All right, go. Okay, so Widows, it stars Viola Davis says Veronica Rawling. the movie opens with her husband Play Blame Neum Neeson A crime gone wrong and the van explodes and he's dead. Meanwhile there's a political campaign running for the district between Jack Mulligan who is like a legacy

family nepotism candidate against Jamal Manning who is more like of the neighborhood and of the people. Turns out they're both corrupt anyway. Jamal threatens Veronica to figure out how to get this money back because it was stolen. from him and it was for his campaign.

She has a month to do it, or he's going to kill her and all of the wives of the men who were involved. She corrals them all together and starts training them to how to do this heist. Meanwhile, it turns out her husband is dead. Spoiler alert.

They basically pull off the heist, but it's at Jack Mulligan's campaign headquarters. They have to pull it. That is time. Oh, fuck. That is time, my friend. There's a lot of fun.

There's so much, like, intricate dynamics of the politics of Chicago, these, like, really interesting characters that, like, you just can't do it in 60 seconds. It's, no. And it's also, there's, like, the relationship dynamic, too, and there's a lot about race there, too, because Veronica's husband isn't only, like, living this life of crime that she may or may not know,

about. I feel like every time I watch it, I have a different opinion on if she knows or doesn't know. I think she looked the other way and didn't want to know. I think she, I think it did not come to me, it did not seem to me that she was surprised to find out that her husband was a criminal. She has a career of her own too, right? She's involved with like city schools. So like, you can also believe her as someone who is very invested in her career otherwise. And also they have their son who was shot by a police officer. So it's like, it's also this incredible portrait of grief for her. Right.

You get these series of flashbacks. She discovers her husband, like, faked his own death in this and screwed her over. And meanwhile, is having an affair with Carrie Coon and they have a baby. Carrie Coon, the wife of one of his crew members, too, is the other thing. It's like he really, he's revealed to be a shit on like multiple different levels, right? And, but you get that one flashback where it's to, I think seemingly it's like the morning of their son's funeral or whatever. And she's just like, they're both really going through it and they can't connect. And he sort of snaps at her and says, don't make me, don't make my

one regret that I had a child with you. And she says, well, maybe you should have, Maybe you shouldn't have if you had a child with somebody else, he'd still be alive because her son was killed at a traffic stop by a white cop in a, you know, racist police shooting. And it's, there's just, there's levels, there's macro levels, there's micro levels, there's character stuff big and small, there's the stuff with her interacting with the different women, like she's got a very sort of distinct relationship with Dubicki's character versus Michelle Rodriguez's character, and then certainly with Cynthia Riva's character, who is not having it at all, which is great. It's hard to, like, make a blanket statement about the plot and, like, fully include all of the dynamics.

Like, Michelle Rodriguez's character, like, it does seem like they had a good marriage, and, like, she's losing her business because she can't, he was helping support her. And there was also a mention at some point that he had gambling debts. And that was a big part of the reason why her store ends up getting taken away from her. So, yeah, all of these women seem to have very, they're drawn very specifically. And I find that really interesting. There's even that little side plot about Cynthia Arriva works at the salon that Atapero Adduye owns, and she ends up getting loans from, or like benefits from the city program that Colin Farrell is supporting. That is essentially a, not a front, but like a, it's a good PR move for him, right, to sort of make these small business loans to black women in the area.

And then he sort of puts them up on a stage and it's just like, you know, aren't I doing such a great job for the community? And he's profiting off of them. But he ends up profiting off of them and she ends up having to give a kickback essentially to them. And Cynthia Arrivo, you know, sort of bristles at that. And by the end of the movie, she takes some of her cut to give to Adaparo O'Douye and to have her, you know, get on her feet independently. And there's just, it's, it works on, again, I say sort of macro and micro levels in a way that I find very, very satisfying. And even, like, the Brian Tyree Henry character, I think it's a fascinating character, actually. Like, I could watch an entire TV series about that character because he's a villain, but he's, he's a villain.

but he's also like the kind you could see him being an anti-hero of a show you know sopranos-esque kind of a thing which like I'm sort of done with those TV shows as it is just like stop making me have to invest in you know the emotional life of a career criminal and yet he's fascinating and he plays this so well and like what this was a great year for him also because it was this and if Beale Street could talk which I believe he was a runner up for. for National Society of Film Critics, the supporting actor, for both of those films, and I think there was a third, now hold on a second. Probably Spiderverse. Yes, it was Spiderverse, yes.

So he was sort of cited for those three films, but he's, especially in, I would say, this and Beale Street. I would have nominated him for Beale Street alone. I thought he was. I believe I did. I think I did too.

He's phenomenal in that. But he's so threatening in that scene where he shows up on Viola Davis doorstep and grabs the dog. And at first it's just holding the dog. One of the most essential cast members of widows, Olivia, the dog. Fantastic. Well, I mean, a crucial plot development comes from the dog.

Like, it's, but the way he's just, he's holding the dog, and he's not even threatening it yet, but just him holding the dog is, you don't want that to be happening. And you want him to put that down at her doorstep and not, you know, leaving. You know what it means when he picks up the dog. Forcing his way in. Like, again, not like breaking the door down, but he, like, he insinuates himself and he insists that he, you know, be let in. And yet, then he's got scenes. He sort of is of him and Kaluya, who his sort of, you know, second in command and brother, right?

I forget if there's a relation there or not, but like. But anyway. As I mentioned in our original attempt. to record this morning. Daniel Kaluy is like the Freddie Kruger of this movie. He's amazing. He's so good. He should have been nominated for this.

I go back and forth on certain things about like, but like he should have been nominated for this. DeBicki should have been nominated for this and Viola should have been nominated for this. I want someone to tell me how many lines or words he has in this movie. Besides just glowering, besides just like using his eyeballs to amazing effect. Of who he is and he has this complete sway over. a movie where it's like it's like the shark from jaws he is like freddie kruger it create he the character that he is creating the villain like the presence that he has on screen makes you

terrified the second he shows up it's all posture with him it's all eyeballs and like and where his shoulders are and like is he hunched over like is he you know is he like sort of leaning back and and being like you know faux casual about things and it's so threatening uh I said earlier before the recording, when he dies at the ends, and he's like, the camera does not make it ambiguous. Like, he is, his neck is crunched up, the steering wheels halfway into his chest, and he's open-eyed and bleeding, and he's dead. And my mind immediately goes to scream, too, of just like, he's dead in the front seat. It's just like, don't trust it. Do not trust that he's dead.

He'll be back. They're going to cut back to that shot of the car, and he will be there, and he'll be like, what happened? what's going on. One of the great villain performances of the past decade. Yeah. But yeah, and also, okay, so here's my other thing about the Brian Tyree Henry character, whose name is Jamal Manning. There's a point later in the movie where Colin Farrell, who plays Jack Mulligan,

is sitting around with his sort of political business cronies or whatever, sipping whiskey and whatnot. And he says, I'm going to, I'm going to beat his. black gay ass in this election and somebody else is like, oh, is he gay? And they sort of like move on from the conversation. But now my mind is like, wait a second, is he gay? Because I also, like, that's also the vibe that he has in Beale Street. And so I'm just like, is this just like a odd coincidence or like, is this a thing that we're supposed to be thinking about this character? And is this a thing that plays into, I don't know, like the way

I mean, it definitely shows how, like, the Mulligans would speak about their opponents, their constituents, black people, behind closed doors, too. Right. And I, the movie really calibrates stuff with the two political opponents very well to never really allow you to side with either of them. Yep. Yep. Because, like, that Colin Farrell observation, I think, comes out. or like right around his fight with his father, Robert Duvall's character, where he basically says, I can't wait for your generation of people to fucking die.

Right. And in that scene, Farrell is the better of the two. And then in the scenes with Farrell and Jamal Manning, he's the worst of the two. And when he and Viola have their scene together, he's the less overtly threatening to Viola than Jamal Manning is. Jamal Manning, again, it's threatening to kill her dog and kill her, and all this sort of stuff, bring physical harm to her. And Jack Mulligan is sort of namby-pamby, like, he's not going to do anything to help her. He makes these sort of, like, vague political financial threats to her, but he's not, like, in her face. But so the movie is playing with these ideas of just, like, what's the bigger threat?

who's the bigger villain and ultimately it's everybody. It is Colin Farrell. It's Brian Tyree Henry. It's Liam Neeson. It's Carrie Coon a little bit. You know what I mean?

And you can see why this whole thing would have made for a good television show because there's so many angles to it. And I obviously never saw the British series and I don't know which characters had analogs that were as important in that one as they were in Steve McQueen's widows.

But you can see why there's lot of avenues that you could go down with this. Yeah, I find this movie thrilling and every time that I watch it too, because like there's, there were a lot of people who thought that some of it's like the political bent of this movie was

heavy handed and like the shot, you mentioned Sean Bobbitt's shot where they're of the car driving through neighborhoods. People think that this movie is heavy handed and I think the opposite is true. I find it more revealing in subtle ways throughout. It's got a

on its shoulders. Specifically of Chicago. Yeah. A lot of... Are very rich. This was a very well-reviewed movie. It was 91% on Rotten Tomatoes. A lot of people put it on their top ten lists. Our friend and former guest, David Sims, it was his number one movie of the year, as was mine. So obviously David was correct there. Good job, David. But a lot of people really like this movie, but for the people who were less enthusiastic,

a little bit more hand-wringy, or some people, you know, maybe outright didn't like it. And I think that was a lot of the crux of it. A lot of people who didn't like it said that it tried to do too much at once. It tried to do a crime story and a politics story and all of a sudden at once. And to me, that's one of the movies' great assets, you know, is that it's able to tell what is essentially a heist movie and a real fucking good heist movie, too. with, you know, a head on its shoulders that's looking around at the environment and says, okay, this heist movie is happening in the context of this political reality, this social reality, these, you know, interactions between people.

And to me, that makes the movie richer, and I don't think it drops the ball in either one of its arenas. No, I completely agree. And I think some people, there's a whole widows is messy. group of people and there's a even louder group of widows is boring group of people. I don't get that at all. Yeah, I'm kind of

I mean, if you want to say it's messy, fine. Because I do think there is a certain there's a certain flair to the movie that is like melodrama, right? Like you have Viola Davis and Elizabeth Dubicki slapping each other. Yes.

Like there is an element of melodrama to this too. I think actually is really good and entertaining and interesting to watch. But the people that think that the movie is boring, I kind of feel like that is a... We'll get into the whole marketing failure of this movie and the whole fox of it. But, like, I think there was an expectation that people... Of people going into the movie that it would be like an Ocean's Eleven style ensemble heist that's maybe like grittier or something,

but the real heistiness of the movie doesn't really occur until the end of the movie. So it's like if you're expecting these type of like group mechanics or like a building sense of fun, like that's your expectation walking into the door of this movie, you're bound to be disappointed. Well, except I don't think that that was ultimately the marketing failure. I think the marketing tried to sell it as an Oscar movie, tried to sell it as

a prestige movie when I think the way you sell this movie is that it is a heist movie, that it is a, it's not a romp, it's not Oceans 11, it's not lighthearted in that way, but it is a crowd pleaser popcorn movie. Like this movie was not sold as a crowd pleaser popcorn movie when I think if it had been an audience has got had gotten to see it in theaters they would have fucking loved it like this is this movie uh hits the buttons i think when you're when you're watching it and i think ultimately it was sold in this weird little middle ground where it was just like well this is prestige movie making but it's also you know viola davis has got a little criminal group or whatever and yeah it was like the poster

is just a bunch of floating heads on it. It's like... Right. That original trailer was fantastic, but like in the lead up to it, like, I don't think the marketing team really responded to what festival audiences responded to this movie. And in the end, audiences went to this movie and got something that they weren't expecting. When you talk to people about who say that the movie is boring, what do they, what What is their justification for calling the movie boring?

I don't... I've had those conversations. It's people who were expecting, like, a heist movie the whole way through. And then they say that this movie is slow. They think characters aren't interesting. I don't know where they would be getting that expectation, though, unless it's from, like, word of mouth from people who thought the movie was a fucking blast, like, I did. Like, so maybe it's that.

But, like, I just... I don't... see how the movie supports a reading of it being boring. Yeah, I don't get it, but I just don't see it. I think you, like, not to tell people that, like, you're watching it wrong, but, like, you watched it wrong. Sorry, like, it's not boring. Well, and to be fair, like, it's not just audiences that think that way. There's prominent critics who've said that.

Like, listen, everybody's got their bad days. It's, I will say, what, you mentioned melodrama, and it made me think of probably the one scene, that I think is bad in this film, which, again, I gave it five stars. Is it the slapping? No, God, fuck no. The slapping's fantastic. I wish there were three of those scenes. No, the scene where Michelle Rodriguez goes to the widower's house to get the blueprints. Oh, right. And they bond over having just lost their spouses and they start making out and then she leaves. And you think for a second that it was like that she was doing that as like this Sydney Bristol Honeypot thing where it's just like, I managed to slip the, you know, the blueprints

out of his whatever. It's like, no. That was just like that scene seemed to play as it did on face value. And I just didn't understand, A, why it was happening. I don't know that it fit in with what her character was. And it didn't do anything for the plot at all, except I guess that it was a dead end for her trying to find these blueprints, at which point it becomes Debicki's task. And they couldn't find a simpler dead end to get a theme. It was just dumb. And it made me feel like what is Michelle Rodriguez's character? What is her deal? It's a scene that I'm always surprised is still in the movie.

I feel like it would have been an easy scene to cut. But the problem with that is the movie already kind of shortchanges her character. It does. Even with that scene. So it's like, how much is that? What I kind of want is another scene of her with Cynthia Revo. Yeah. You know.

Right. Those are her best. The mother's, they, you know. The thing I love about Michelle Rodriguez is. guys's character in this movie, though, and her name is Linda, is... There's too many famous people in this movie for... Listen, I just call people by their actor's names. It's a lot easier.

You guys know what I'm talking about when I say it. It's fine. I will not be calling Elizabeth Debicki Alice. She's Elizabeth Debicki. Right, which to the point where when Michelle Rodriguez drops her off at the hospital at the end, and she tells the EMTs, her name is Jennifer, I'm just like, what a second is her name, Jennifer? Because it's just like, it's just Elizabeth Debicki.

But Michelle Rodriguez's best scenes are all when she's like, it's her and Debicki talking about what a hard-ass Viola Davis is. It's her and Cynthia Revo sort of talking about how, you know, her recruiting her to the team and whatnot. And ultimately, that pays off to me when she's the one who volunteers to stick around and bring Elizabeth Debicki to the hospital. And that sort of, you know, moment of concern there. And it's not this big melodramatic, like, you're my friend kind of a thing. But you feel that bond between them. And I think also that's why the relationship between Viola Davis and Elizabeth Tabicki in this movie is so important to me. And that's why I love that the movie ends on those two.

And that hint just on Viola's face. I love a movie that ends with a little bit of ambiguity. She's just starting to smile. And you get this little flutter of hope in your chest that, like, maybe they're going to be friends. And, like, I love a movie that ends on maybe they're going to be friends. though, I fucking love Steve McQueen. He, like, he always ends his movies after, like, he's pummeled you and, like, even something like this, which could be so easily reduced to just a genre movie,

like, deals with sociopolitical issues, like, so, uh, well. Yeah. And, like, it, like, it ends with the faintest glimmer of hope that feels like this mountain leap achievement, uh, I love him. If it, it's, it's an ending. that it didn't have to end like that. You could easily see the way this movie ends cynically or brutally or sort of matter of fact where Viola is going to go on, she's going to move on somehow and, you know, pick up the pieces

of her life and whatever. But no, it ends really on this moment of hope. And the hope isn't, you know, that she's going to, she's got this money now or that she's got her, you know, freedom now. The hope is that these two women who have been through the fucking ringer and who have done this thing together and who weren't always on the best of terms could now just be

friends. And I love that. I just absolutely love it. It's wonderful. I like this movie, Chris. Well, yes. Well, but it's worth saying that Veronica spends the entire movie in a state

of grief and shock. So it's also a moment for her as a character where it feels like she is, regardless of whatever the relationship will be with Elizabeth to Bickey, it feels like she is moving on or she is able to move forward. Right. So it's like, it's a, well, she's, so much is made in the movie of, you know,

she's so mean to us. She's so sour. She's just like she can't. Yeah, she's going through it, you guys. Well, she's also, she's also trying to plan this heist. Like, she plans the heist as if she's like the meanest middle school arithmetic teacher ever where she's just like, we're going to run with these bags of dirt on our backs because the money might be heavier than we think it is. And she's just like, we're just going to, we're going to do it. It's repetition. We're going to keep practicing this until we get it. And she's completely pitiless and she's completely merciless. But she knows how dangerous this thing is, especially trying to pull off a job with what is essentially, they're all amateurs. They've not done

this before. She knows it. And she knows that, like, the consequence of doing this wrong is we all end up dead or in prison. And prison being, like, you know, the less likely of the two, we're probably going to die if we fuck this up. And that's why that's why that sense of relief at the end, where she can just smile. We haven't seen that on her this entire movie. We've seen her cry. We've seen her frown. We've seen her fret. And that's why it's so. it's a generous ending. You know how I love generosity. And like it could also just be like corny or obvious, but like you're talking about one of the finest working actors doing this performance. And like, we've talked about this performance before that it is a like full bodied movie star performance. And that's

one of the like impressive things about it. Yeah. Um, then it's just like, yeah, it could so easily, uh, be something cheap and it's always in good hands. Yeah. Do you want to talk about the 2018 Oscars for a second? Sure. All right. 2018 best actress or what do you think? Well, so I was sort of going through the different little precursor stuff to find out, again, where widows even showed up in runner-up conversation. We're like, Elizabeth Tabicki ended up being the runner-up at both the Los Angeles film critics and National Society of Film Critics.

Regina King kind of ran the table in terms of the person. precursors. She won New York, L.A. SAG, where she wasn't nominated. And BAFTA, where she wasn't nominated. But, like, the Critics Awards, Regina King swept. She won New York, L.A., National Border Review, National Society of Film Critics, and then Critics' Choice. She's not nominated at all at BAFTA.

That allows Rachel Weiss to win. She's not nominated at all at SAG, which Emily Blunt wins for a quiet place, which I love Emily Blunt. I love Emily Blunt in a quiet place. She's a lead in that movie that's freaking stupid that she was supporting in that movie um and it's i i assume that it's just that the favorite the favorite women that rachel vice and emma stone you know canceled each other out and whatever that's but like that to me was a wild decision but like there were worse things happening in the 2018 oscar race so like

don't worry about it but like but i think that was that's what gave people pause when it came to the oscars of just like oh shit is regina king going to lose this thing to people thought that's But, like, Amy Adams for Vice, who everybody sort of assumed was running second place because they all assumed that the favorite women would cancel each other out. I mean, she would have had to have been running second place everywhere is the thing for her to have actually been second place. I doubt she was second place. Right. But I do feel like, I mean, hindsight, Regina King was always going to win that because people love Regina King. But I do think there was that fear.

Amy Adams hadn't won anything that season, but she was always there. She was always sort of lurking. You would think that if she was going to be a threat to win the Oscar that she would have won sag. So that, to me, was a pretty big indicator. Especially in a place where the frontrunner wasn't nominated. Right. So, like, it makes all the sense in the world that she didn't win. But there was that fear.

And I think the fear especially was all this other weird-ass shit is happening in this race. Green Book is doing so well. It won the Golden Globe. Bohemian Rhapsody won the other Golden Globe. Rami Mollick is marching to an Oscar. All this stuff that, like, you look at the way that the 2018 Oscars ended, and you look at it and you're just like, oh, fucking course it ended that way. But as it was happening, we never quite believed it, right? It was always like, Roma's still ahead.

There was just too much chaos going on to feel confident about a frontrunner being a front runner. I remember you were holding on to the Black Panther thing for like ever and ever and you're just like, it can do it, it can happen. I think there were still people at the margins who thought that a movie like, you know, a star is born was still so likable that maybe it would have this late surge and then all of, you know, he doesn't get nominated and best director and that sort of, you know, kills that. There's that truly bizarre director nomination for Pavel Pavlovakowski for Cold War that I still don't understand. I will never understand. I think they just targeted that branch in their campaign. But like, okay, and this is me just being like Cold War's only okay. But, like, Cold War is only okay. And even I, even at its best, Cold War is not a highly emotional movie.

It's not a, I don't understand why that particular foreign language film captured the hearts of awards voters that you're, even among the directors. I mean, like, no, I know exactly what you're thinking because we both love shoplifters. And it's like, shoplifters just like, maybe it's just like, maybe it just. got screwed in its in timing you know like it came out in the year of roma and for whatever reason people loved cold war more than they love shoplifters and shoplifters has a much more obviously emotional pull i get why burning doesn't do well at the oscars do you know what i mean burning i think it's a superior movie to um to cold war and i like i like shoplifters a little bit better than burning but like if you like burning better than shoplifters i get it like it's but it's but

it's a challenging movie. It is a movie that, like, sort of, it doesn't push the audience away, but, like, it makes you work for it, right? And Stephen Young does show up during the, speaking of the critics awards. He wins Los Angeles Film Critics Association and National Society of Film Critics, which, like, I had forgotten that he had won two major critics prizes, and that's fucking awesome, because I think he was my number one supporting actor that year. He's so good in that movie. But, like, I get why Burning doesn't get, you know, that level of support the Cold War got. I don't get why it was Cold War over something like shoplifters. What else did Amazon have that season? They could have also just been putting most of their effort behind that movie. Hold, please. Well, yes, because this is the year that they have a lot of shit that failed, like Beautiful Boy. Hold on. Well, Beautiful Boy they were putting their effort into because Sholome almost gets a...

Yeah, he was almost there. He was probably sixth place. Amazon Studios. But for a studio like Amazon, it's easier if they have, like, a targeted nomination that they can work for. Plus, also, people forget that the director's branch, because you vote for your category and your branch, and then you vote for best picture if you're in the academy. So, like, actors are voting for actors. Directors are voting for directors. The director's branch is not that big.

That's why they have idiosyncratic choices sometimes. Right, right, right. And sometimes it's not, like, they aren't always the ones. to be susceptible to emotional pulse. And I get it. But just like, I guess it's just my under, me being underwhelmed with that movie. It's their taste as a branch to like,

yeah, foreign language. I mean, it's, it's just weird because you do have a non-English language film in Best Picture and Cold War is not it. And it still gets that director's nominee. Right.

It's odd. But, like, there are other analogs throughout history of that happened. So Amazon Studios in 2018, it's a real weird lineup. Okay, so they have early in the year, they have you were never really,

here, which ends up being, you know, certain critics really liked it. I still fucking hated it. It was never going to be nominated. It was never going to get nominated. Cold War ends up being its big success. Beautiful Boy was the one where it's like, they tried it. Shalame gets

Golden Globe and Sack or just Golden Globe? I think both. I think it's both. Give me a second. I've got Sag right here. He was nominated for Sag as well, yes. So he comes super close, but like nothing else about that movie was a threat to get nominated. anywhere.

And he didn't get nominated. I also think he is bad in it. I disagree. I think he's good. Suspira was never going to get nominated, but also the reception to that movie was wild. Like, all over the map, people hated it, people loved it. People were very confused by it. It was like...

You could absolutely do an episode on it. Like, it feels like it was close to that makeup nomination. I think if the makeup branch had expanded to the five by then, because they're not at five. It's the next year that they do five instead of three, right? Last year was the very first. Yeah, I think Suspira could have been nominated. That's very possible. So, yeah, we will definitely do.

I still, like, there is not an election to be held that I won't make a Blanc-Marcos joke. It's just, like, I just will. For the rest of your life. For the rest of my life, that is the impact of Suspira on me. Also, Mia Gott's body will be coming towards Earth or, like, the polar ice caps will completely know, and Joe will be tweeting, should have voted for Marcos. Should have voted for Blanc. Anyway.

But also the other movie, the other Amazon movie that we're not mentioning, that was very early on people did have some hopes for, is the future this had Oscar Buzz selection life itself. Yes, yes. Both movies that are the absolute example of people predicting people. things for Oscars before anyone sees the movie. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when the trailer came out for life itself and everyone's like, oh my God, this is

going to be an Oscar movie. And I was like, you are all out of your minds. But so here's the thing, though, is when I look at Oscar chances, there's like cynical brain and not cynical brain, right? And cynical brain really was telling me that like, look, people seem to like This Is Us on television and throw words at that thing. And I don't get that either. So, like, maybe there is something in me. And look, 2018

was a really... He did not translate to Oscar. But 2018 is a great example of sometimes the things that you think are horrible really land with people. And like, you're right. You're right. Green Book wins best picture. And everybody else was like, that's not going to happen. And even more so, Bohemian Rhapsody is a movie

where people on sort of our side of the aisle were like, that's a, like, that is a demonstrably terrible movie for X, Y, and Z reasons. Here is a scene. It's poorly edited, yada, yada, yada. It's like, people seem to want to make, like, the empirical case for, like, Bohemian Rhapsody is unequivocally shit. And yet, not only did it win, almost wins almost one best picture. It almost certainly was second place that year. If it wasn't for the Brian Singer thing, I really think that that could have been a best picture winner. Absolutely. Absolutely true. Rami Mollick became, like, unstoppable because, like, if they were, was any pushback against Brian Singer, Rami Mollock absolutely reaped the benefit of it. And I think they campaigned that smartly because the whole time they positioned him as the

hero of that movie against Brian Singer's bullshit. Yep. But not only all of that, not only did it do so well in precursor awards, in actual, not pre-curet, but like Golden Globe and then the Oscars, but like it made a shit ton of money because audiences fucking loved it. I don't know what the cinema score on it was, but I bet it was really high. I bet it was an A. I wouldn't be surprised. People loved this movie. And there is a part of me, as again, and I realize I'm the person

who just said that anybody who didn't like widows was wrong. But like, there is a part of me that's just like, who am I to tell all of these people who love Bohemian Rhapsody that they're out to lunch. Do you know what I mean? There's something in that movie that is connecting with people. So like that is the thing that lives in the back of my mind when I look at a trailer for something like life itself. And I'm just like, listen, not for me, but like there is something about the things that this guy does that has connected with people. This is us being the example of that. And like, I don't know. Maybe it'll be something that like I will totally not get, but people will latch on to. And clearly that was the case with a lot of stuff in 2018, which is too

bad because there's a lot of stuff in 2018 that I fucking loved. This is the year of- One I don't understand, though, in this equation of, like, we think something is dog shit, but there are these people that love it, even if they're wrong. Who likes vice? Who has enthusiasm for vice? Right. But at least vice. I mean, the best director nomination sort of, like, is puzzling, more puzzling by the day. But, like, clearly, vice feels like an also ran in that best picture category.

They had to fill it out, whatever. Like, it was, it was the last thing to show up in the year. It had already had its, like, massive campaign before people had seen the movie. But it also, if you don't see Vice and you only, like, okay. Oscar voters and other precursors voted for Vice without seeing the movie? No, no. But what I'm saying is sometimes your conception of a movie is either fully or partially made before you see a movie or whatever. But, like, on paper, Vice.

makes all the sense in the world is an important subject matter it is you know the politics of the moment were applicable to that movie Adam McKay is coming off of a Best Picture nomination

the Oscars can't get enough of Christian Bale fucking with his appearance to you know get to get into a role like it is absolutely like they only will give Christian Bale a nomination

if he does either lose his weight for the fighter, gains weight for Vice, gets a pot belly for American Hustle, or gets the world's worst haircut for the big short. And like, that is the criteria for Christian Bale. But, like, clearly they love Christian Bale. Clearly, they love Amy Adams. They just got rid, got through awarding Sam Rockwell. So, like, clearly he was a favorite too. Like, I think the timing of Vice worked out in its favor, even though I agree with you. It's really hard. Even my parents didn't like Vice. And I don't say that is like, you know, whatever, disparaging my parents' taste in movies. But that is

a kind of movie that my parents, that is right up their alley. And even they were just like, I didn't get that. Like, I didn't know what they were doing with that. And I think it's a very obnoxious movie. And I think that movie thinks that we're all idiots. Yeah. I do. Yeah. Yes. In a way that, like, I don't feel like the big short did. And I know that some people think that also the big short did. But like the big short did that better. The big short did feel like it was making a good faith effort. And part of it is that I am the dummy who needs the finance industry explained to me like I'm a two-year-old. I still do. Like Selena Gomez wasn't enough. Like I still need, you know, constant reminders of what a goddamn credit default swap is. But like,

so maybe that was part of it that I gave the big short a little bit more leeway in that regard. But, like, Vice, yeah, Vice really does... We know who Dick Cheney is. We know what he did. Right, right, exactly. What a weird year. We don't make for Beth monologues. The farther we get away from the 2018 Oscar year, it's more and more fascinating.

I think the entire Roma story is a really fascinating, us one that we don't have time to get into now. But, like, the ins and outs of how that became the frontrunner and then why it didn't end up winning, but what it ended up doing anyway, the two acting nominations that it got were, like, kind of miraculous. and the way that like the reception to that movie was on a couple different levels were like it wasn't just that like smart people liked it and dumb people didn't like there were some smart people who really didn't care for it and I ended up really liking it especially the second time I saw it. I liked it better when I saw it on my computer than when I did when I saw it in a big nice wonderful theater with Barry Jenkins two rows away from me. So like the whole thing about Roma is is, is wild to me. And there's just a lot of really interesting stories in this Oscar year that ended up ending so frustratingly with Green Book winning Best Picture. It's still surprising to me that Roma, I mean, like, the whole, I mean, truly the reason it didn't win is like this anti-netflix bias where you have Steven Spielberg going out and like saying vote for Green Book to support the theatrical experience. And he only did that because it was a DreamWorks production and that's

his company, which is insane. Of all of those other movies, even kind of like Vice more than Green Book support a theatrical, like, experience more than Green Book. Like, I definitely liked Green Book better than Vice. I will say that. There are things that Green Book does that I didn't, that I did appreciate. I mean, the thing about, I think the worst one is Bohemian Rhapsody, on a pure construction level, it is incompetently made. Like, Green Book is at least assembled in a way that you can watch it and be like, wow, that was bullshit. But, like, I think personally, and I've said this before and whatever,

we don't need to rehash Green Book. But, like, I like Mahershullah Ali's performance. I think in and of itself, that performance and that character works for me. I think I get the whole thing where, like, in the context. context of everything else, and the way that, like, the movie nestles itself into Vigo Mortensen's perspective in that. I feel like that movie slaps him in the face. I don't, exactly.

And part of it is just like I like that performance so much. But anyway, we really don't have to get into Green Book. This is not a Green Book podcast. But it's a really interesting Oscar year. And I really, for as much as I thought Myershala was great, I really still wish that Richard E. Grant had won Best Supporting Actor for, for can you ever forgive me um widows though yes it's so it's so easy to see how widows would fit into this lineup it's also worth mentioning that like most of the five to ten nominee years have yielded nine nominees and this one for whatever reason yielded eight right i'm more curious of what the ninth would be yes what would it have been do you think i don't think it would be cold war I don't think it would be Cold War.

I'm looking at the other screenplay nominees that wouldn't have been first reformed, wouldn't have been Buster Scruggs. I don't think it would have been Can You Ever Forgive Me? There's a chance it could have been if Beale Street could talk, I guess. I think it was probably Beale Street.

I do wonder, I mean, it's wishful thinking to imagine that Spider-Verse had a lot of support in Best Picture, but who the hell knows? But like, you wish, that this would have been a really interesting year for, again, we talk about shoplifters, we talk about Into the Spider-Verse.

Even, like, I know not everybody loved Free Solo, but, like, Free Solo is one of those broadly popular documentaries, but, like, you would, you would, my hope is that, like, with the best, top 10 best pictures, that a broadly popular documentary would stand a chance to crack a best picture lineup. Do you know what I mean? And it's odd that this one stopped short at eight. where give me a number

that you think widows finished in best picture voting 15 oh god 15th yeah that's sort of where I'm at which is which is

bananas bananas and okay let's talk a little bit about this and how this movie was handled I definitely think it was

mismarketed because like it should be a slam dunk for like maybe not completely mainstream audiences but with like audiences of a discerning taste

this should not have been a box office disappointment, even if it wasn't a $100 million movie. That is my thing is I think the people who, the way this movie was marketed, they marketed as you would any other awards player, which is we'll get the awards attention and that will drive later box office when it should have absolutely been the other way around, which is, it should have been what Bohemian Rhapsody ended up being, which is we will make this movie broadly popular and that will drive. success and then, you know, it can, you know, loop back on itself. And to me, that's a no-brainer

with this movie. But, like, that was never going to happen because this is after Disney buys out 20th century Fox and whiffs all of the remaining releases that are not their movies. That are Fox's movies. They had nothing to do with them. And they gave them so little effort to the point where it's like the one X-Men movie, which was supposed to be terrible anyway, they do absolutely nothing for it and then they blame Fox on all of it. Wait, now I want to 20th Century Studios

films, 20th Century Fox and this is like one of the first movies that had to fall on that sword. So the 2018 like later half of 2018 movies for 20th Century Fox The Predator, which played Tiff that year

that had its own problems. We can't probably blame that on the sale. Old Man in the Gun, which I think got a Golden Globe nomination for Redford. That was Searchlight. Oh, that was Searchlight was left to be somewhat autonomous, at least at first. We will see what happens in the future. So, okay, so this list that I'm seeing is not differentiating between Fox and Fox Searchlight, which is annoying.

Bohemian Rhapsody was a Fox film, though. So, like, that also, I think the success of Bohemian Rhapsody probably almost certainly took away resources and support from something like, something like, yeah dark phoenix gets punted to very low effort in the summer of 2019 um the elita battle angel release because that got pushed back from a better perch i think that was originally um i think it's settled on christmas for a while and then moved again moved to february um classic valentine's day entertainment elita battle angel actually honestly be careful it has a lot of online stands i could see that being i could see that being i could see that being a fun date movie i've still never seen elita battle angel i'm sure it's fun um

oh that weird uh deadpool re-release um that was pg 13 yeah who cares bad times at the l royale which you uh you despise and i just think is a missed opportunity um yeah it's an odd little uh which like even that could have made more money i just wonder especially because because Searchlight was left to their own devices by Disney in the beginning. Right. What could have happened to Widows if it was a Searchlight movie instead of 20th Century Fox, which, like, Searchlight got Steve McQueen 12 years of slave, a Best Picture win. Yeah, but like...

And, like, there was a certain level of this movie that it's like he went from Searchlight to 20th Century Fox before the Disney buyout that it felt like it was a level up. Like, it felt like he was doing his first mainstream movie that was going to be, like, a box office success. It was filled with stars. And it's such a bummer to me that he didn't get to, like, have the success that it looked like this movie had on paper. It's after winning the best picture. It was his best movie to date. I love 12 Years of Slave.

I think 12 Years of Slave is a very worthy best picture winner. I think Widows is his best film that he made to date. we can talk about Small Axe. We're very, very fresh with Small Axe, and I still haven't seen Lovers Rock, so, like, I know that's the one everybody loves the best. At the point of this episode, all of the Small Axe films will be available. You should absolutely go watch all of them. They're incredible. I'm just blown away by what he was able to achieve with these films. But to your point about Fox Searchlight, and Fox Searchlight is undoubtedly better at the Oscar game than 20th Century Foxes.

So, like, that's indisputable. But I still, I think Fox Searchlight is good at selling a movie like 12 Years of Slave, which again, as I said, you get the awards attention, and then that makes the movie popular. And I really do feel like Widows had to do it the other way around. The Widows' Awards attention would happen if it's a really popular movie. and it wasn't a popular movie so it allowed the awards people to be like, well, moving on,

what is popular? Bohemian Rhapsody's popular, we'll do that. And the Oscars don't, you know, the discussion about popular films at the Oscars is a long one that we don't need to get into. But I do feel like... Well, you can really feel the divide in this particular Oscar year

in terms of when things were released because like the favorite was a late release, and it didn't really ever do great at the box office, but by that point, it's awards narrative sort of like VICE had already been sold. Right. The 2018 Best Picture List is full of, like,

Black Panther, obviously, is a very early in the year, huge populist success. Black Klansman is an early in the year success that, like, I'm not sure exactly how that ended up doing box office was. I think it did like $50 million. This was the crazy thing about Green Book, is like, they kept saying

throughout Thanksgiving and Christmas, This hit movie, this hit movie. And it's like, it's playing to empty theaters. It had to be in theaters for like nine months to get to however much it did. What did it end up doing? It was never a hit. It just was allowed to be in theaters for as long as it was. Yeah.

No, you're totally right about that. But like there were definitely populist hits. A Star is Born, early fall movie is a big populist hit. And I think that's the angle that widows would have succeeded on if it had had, been allowed to be a populist hit, and I think it is if you use your marketing to tell people that they will enjoy themselves at this movie, which people would. It is a very satisfying movie. It delivers. I agree. Okay. What's the other ephemera we can get into? That BAFTA nomination that Viola got that was won by Olivia Coleman. That was the big sort of indicator that

Olivia Coleman could end up, you know, pulling the upset that she ended up pulling at the Oscars. Oh, we haven't talked about our friends, the M for G's. The M for G's, one of the, we have decided that they are a major precursor. Yeah, much better than the critics' choice. They're not much better than the critics' choice. They gave best actor to Vigo Mortensen. No, no, I still, listen, everybody has their moments. Everybody screws up sometimes.

I'm pretty sure Critics' choice gave it to Rami Mollock, so apples to apples. Yeah. The best actress field this year at M4G's is wild. It's a time. Listen, it's five A-plus actresses. I will say that. Like, we can quibble about the performances if we want to, but they're all fantastic actresses. We'll read the lineup for our...

Okay, so the winner, as you probably imagine. is Glenn Close for the wife? Could not imagine a more perfect Movies for Grownups winner than Glenn Close and the wife? What if there was a wife? What if there was a Movies for Grownups demographic champion?

I think they, did they nominate Jonathan Price? Maybe I remember. In supporting actor, hold on a second. They did not. They should have. You know who they did nominate Ian McCullen for All Is True.

The only people who watched their All Is True screener is the Movies for Grown. up. Same thing with the what they had screeners, which is what they nominated Robert Forster. They did nominate my screener of that that year. It's a decent movie. They nominated Robert Duval. So, uh, in your face, Chris File, uh, the M4G's. And also, they love, they love metafictional performances. That's what I've decided with that nomination. But so, all right, so back to best actress. Glenn Close wins for the wife. Vila is nominated for widows. Nicole Kidman for destroyer um wait let's i will become the destroyer pause where where'd you come down on karen kusama's

destroyer we saw that together we did i think the most thrilling um experience we had with that movie were the people that were about to get into a fight over a seat next to us oh i forgot about that um at a at a at a critic screaming of destroyer it's like they put it in like one of the smallest theaters and it's like at the end of the festival when like no one's even in there but like for whatever reason this one was full there was i wanted it for destroyer i wanted it for karen kusama i wanted success i did too i did not end up liking destroyer very much it has its fans a friend and former guest jorda and sirrardine surles loves destroyer and um writes very well about it but um it has its moments i think bradley whitford has at least one very good scene in that movie um

I think Sebastian Stan is wildly hot in that movie with a bazonkers haircut. Of course. Yep, yep. I would have, uh, you didn't have to tell me that you would have that. The Clyde to Nicole Kidman's Bonnie in this, uh, in this film. Yeah, it's, but yeah, it's not good. It's a messy movie. And I love Karen Kruzama, but again, just watch, watch the invitation. It's so close to achieving what it wants to, but so far to me. Yes. Um, and then Julia Roberts for Ben is back. I think she's great in that. she's so she definitely is better than the amount of attention that she got for that movie correct that movie was just weirdly silent all season um and i think it's maybe because it needed better initial reviews than it got and then it just got buried it's weird because that was a roadside movie and roadside i don't think had anything else that season and they usually do well on a campaign front um but like that movie just didn't go anywhere. This is probably

the most attention it got. Was she Globe nominated? I don't think so. Hold on. Back his back. It felt like that was the most likely Globe nomination. Like, of course they'll nominate Julia Roberts. Oh, I thought she was a shoe in for the Globe and she didn't. No, the only

awards attention it got besides the M4G's for Julia, she got a nomination at the Sin Euphoria Awards, whatever that is. Cool. It was nominated for a German dubbing award for best drama. The North Carolina Film Critics Association gave its Tarheel Award to Lucas Hedges for this and boy erased.

Because he's from North Carolina or something? Maybe. The Los Angeles Online Film Critics Society Awards gave Lucas Hedges Award for Best Performance by an actor 23 and under, tied with Alex Wolfe for Hereditary, who rules in that movie. and I'm glad somebody gave Alex Wolfe something because he was great. Yeah, Beijing International Film Festival nominated the film. So, yeah, but that's about it for Ben is back, which is too bad. It's a pretty good movie with a really good Julia Roberts performance.

It's a movie that I think I didn't know that it was going to go that. We saw it like basically blind at the festival and it becomes like pretty harrowing in the final act of the movie. And I wasn't expecting it to go like that. like it almost becomes like a thriller yeah by the end of it um the fifth nominee at m4g's is is the wildest yes uh we love her miss sandra bullock for bird box now we maybe forgot it's been two years since bird box but like the phenomenon i still never seen burglots oh really just see it it's not bad box was like red hot for like a week and a half right which tells you when the AARP both

for these. It was longer than a week and a half. There was a full solid month where Birdbox was the talking point. It was really crazy. And it was at the end of a year when there's so much movie chatter. But like it was such a social media phenomenon

for a few weeks there. Everybody hated it. Everybody said it was bad. No, okay. I'm going to push back on that a little bit. Here's the thing. Here's, I'm going to explain the Birdbox thing. Birdbox being a Netflix movie that Netflix

immediately after it premiered Netflix was like eight zillion people saw this movie everybody in the world saw this movie six times trust us we've got internal numbers don't worry about it

and like the thing whenever Netflix does that is like obviously they're bullshitting obviously they're being you know P.T. Barnum about this whole thing but like I keep reducing the amount of time

that they consider someone watched it right like it's not even two minutes anymore. But like anecdotally among people I know who like are not us and are not film critics and do not, you know, watch this stuff for a living, a lot of people

saw Birdbox. I heard that year at the holidays, I heard a ton of people who are not movie nerds talking about Birdbox. So clearly like Netflix was goosing those numbers for sure, but like it was based on something. A lot of fucking people saw Birdbox. Well, and they can goose those numbers because they put it like at the very

top of their platform, right? Sure. A lot of data supports that people will literally just watch whatever is in front of their face when they turn on Netflix. Sure. But also, I think most of the people, like, there was good word of mouth about Birdbox

among regular people, but I think it was one of those things where the more Netflix touted it and the more that, like, film critic people resented it. And so the better Netflix said it did, the worst critics said it was. And it was this real inverse kind of a thing

where, like, ultimately, I think Birdbox is, a very watchable the term B movie is thrown around in weird ways and like whatever it's that's a specific definition that I'm not going to get into but like it's

a fun not that brilliant movie that like it's compelling it moves along the premise is really interesting no no it's a it's a real it's an interesting premise

that like moves itself along really well and no it's not a great movie but it's not a I don't think it's a bad I genuinely don't think it's a bad movie. I think a lot of people made it sound like it was this, like, giant piece of shit because they thought that Netflix was perpetrating a fraud. And, like, whatever, I get it.

We hate streaming. We want movies to be in theaters, yada, yada, yada. HBO Max is the worst streaming platform, Christopher Nolan. I'll agree with you just because you said it. But, like... Which is unfortunate because, like, other than Criterion Channel, they actually are the best in terms of their library, the streaming quality. this is this is sort of the thing right the corporation even like above the app itself is running themselves into the ground but like this is when we get into you know these conversations well like there is such a you know this like silent war it's not very silent everybody won't shut up about it myself included between streaming and theatrical and the where people want the future of movies to be and i think birdboxed ended up being this like momentary

flashpoint in that. And that's why I do think, like, don't believe the anti-hype about Birdbox. It is not an F movie. It is a C-plus movie. When am I going to make the time for a C-plus movie that we're covering on the podcast? Right. Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, it's a real interesting nomination. On the movies for grown-ups, they gave their best director to Spike Lee. Fuck yeah. But they also nominated Mimi Leader. Remember all of 2018 how we were like quietly rooting for Mimi Leader to make a comeback with on the basis of sex?

Well, the thing is, Mimi Leader had already made her comeback at that point. It was just that it was on television. She had directed all those episodes of The Leftovers. They were so good. I interviewed her for the finale of the leftovers, and she was so lovely and wonderful, and I really liked her a lot. And, like, you know, had tons of really great ideas about that show and whatnot. So, yeah, we were all rooting for her.

We were hoping. And then, like, we were rooting for her. But even as we, like, saw the previews for on the basis of sex, we're even like, we're just like, oh, this seems like it's just going to be a real, like, standard biopic, isn't it? And although, again, my parents as a barometer, my parents both loved it. So there's a good for you, Mimi Leader, for that itself. And also Kenneth Branagh was nominated for All Is True. Again, All is True, a blockbuster as far as the M4Gs were concerned.

All right. Anything else? Let's wrap up Widow so we can hop into the IMDB game. I love it so much. We haven't talked enough about Elizabeth Dubicki, canonical giantess, Elizabeth Dubicki. She's so wonderful in this movie. I was going back through my Debicki tweets before watching the movie. And one of the first production stills of Tenet is John David Washington driving a boat and her sitting in the back. And when I said, what you don't see

because it's just out of frame is that her foot is pressing the gas pedal. Elizabeth to Bickey. Okay, here's my thing about Tbickey. It felt like everybody who loved widows hung their hat on to Bickey to try to like get to Bickey through. Right.

And she's not the performance I think about when I think about this movie. I mean, like, I think she's, I hope she gets the opportunity to, to have roles like this where I assume she will be even better. But, like, I feel like it's Kaluya for me in this movie. I mean, and Viola Davis, obviously, because she's the star of the movie. Again, I think all three of them should have been nominated.

I think Elizabeth Debicki is doing some great stuff. She made all of those scenes with Lucas Haas that could have been very, very, uh, wrote. Right. Like, she makes those movies really, those scenes really crackle. And, like, in a really cool way, I love the dynamic between her and Viola Davis. I love just, as I said, the little scenes between her and Michelle Rodriguez. Her buying the van at auction is a great scene, the gun purchasing scene. And she's just one of those actresses that communicates a lot on her face,

which is interesting because, like, again, she strikes such an imposing figure. Like, there are so many shots of the four of the women as they're getting ready. And it's just like, Viola, you know, standard height. Michelle Rodriguez, standard height. Like she's the soccer table. Cynthia Revo's a little shorter, and then just like, they literally have to, like, back the frame up a good couple steps just to make sure that Elizabeth Tobicki gets to fit in there. But again... Well, her scenes with Jackie Weaver, she's sitting down in all of them.

Was this the movie where somebody, and I can't remember her life of me, where, like, the greatest achievement of this film is that it allows Elizabeth Debicki to be tall? But, like... I mean, that's a lot of her... I mean, that's also a man from uncle, which I think she's incredible in. Man from Uncle, I've said it before, I'll say it again. Wildly underrated movie. I think all three of the leads in that movie are great. It's the best thing Henry Cavill's ever done.

Army Hammer's really great, really funny. Alicia Vikander has personality in that movie, which just like, great. Love that. More of that sometime, please. But Debicki rules in that movie. She's so good. She was great in The Night Listener, the Tom Hiddleston miniseries, the Night Listener. I love her.

I just love her. I want the world for her. Same. Even if, like, I can't be like she should be my winner this year, like some people are. No, she would have been a nominee for me. Or even, like, second place, to be honest. Well, now you're going to make me pull out my list. I forget what my list was.

I'm pretty sure my winner is Regina King for Beale Street, and my runner-up was Sakura Ando for shoplifters. It's a good runner-up. Hold on. Hold, please. 2018 oh actually okay so this is you're going to yell at me um my number my top one was rachel vice for the favorite my runner up was olivia coleman for the favorite who i do think is supporting i think emma stone is the lead in that movie but we'll we've argued about this before the final scene of that movie is the thesis of the movie she is the protagonist no emma stone is the

protagonist they're both a protagonist the point of the movie is that whatever we're not having We're not having conversations I hate. Regina King was my third. DeBickey was my fourth. My fifth was Molly Parker in Madeline's Madeline. Yes, Madeline. She was on my list as well. I forget what else I had.

I also had Haley Lou Richardson for Support the Girls, who is divine in that movie. Mackenzie Davis for Tully, Michelle Gow for Crazy Rich Asians. Yeah. But no, my top five is pretty solid. spectacular yes anyway anyway i should have colloia in my um top five for supporting at the moment i don't but i don't know who i would move out of there stephen yun and burning josh hamilton in eighth grade nicholas holt in the favorite brian tyree henry of beale street in eighth grade yeah you're weird i don't

get that i didn't get the josh hamilton thing like i get it it's a very like emotional like thing but, like, I can't go so far to nominate him for a performance. My supporting actor winner, I believe, was Richard E. Grant or Brian Tyree Henry for If Beale Street could talk. Yeah. I know I nominated Stephen Yun. I forget the rest. That was the year where I said my top 10 supporting actors, I probably, I thought were a better top 10 than my top 10 supporting actresses, which never happens.

But, like, it was a fantastic... year for supporting actor performances. Yes. I loved Sam Elliott in a Starsborn. I thought Michael B. Jordan was great in Black Panther. I know you don't like the Death of Stalin as much as I do, but Rupert Friend is hilarious in that. Alex Wolf, I said, in Hereditary. So good.

It's a great year. 2018 is a great year for movies. Watching this again, I was like, I just want to watch all the 2018 movies that I love. Which, again, makes it all the more weirdly, almost fitting that it ends up being Green Book and Bohemian Rhapsody because of course there were too many great movies to choose from so the Oscars went and did what it did

boy boy indeed do you want to do an IMDB game or do we have anything else um uh watch the small acts films on Amazon Prime yes yeah they're right there for you right there in the comfort of your living room love his work Indeed. All righty. But, uh, yeah, why don't you explain to our listeners what the IMDB game is?

So guys, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. Any of these titles or television or voiceover work will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles as a release, the title's release years has a clue. That's not enough. It just becomes a free for all. of hints. Was that you doing a Chicago accent? No. No.

For a second there... Maybe I should say it is. It would be as good as any other dialect I've done on this podcast. For a second there, I was like, is he doing a Chicago? There was a little flatness to it. My friend Slade Somer and I, we talk every once in a while. We love the movie The Fugitive. And there is some A-plus Chicago cop line deliveries in the fugitive where it's just like...

And I always makes me think. think of, I talked to, I did a Vulture Movie Club last week for Home Alone. And one of the things I didn't get into, although I could have, is how much I love the little local cop scenes with when she's calling them. And the police officer that they send over to the house to check and see on him. And this is one of those movies where like, I've seen it a billion times. My sisters and I talk about it constantly will just like fire lines back and forth to each other. We know the whole movie by heart. But he goes up to the house. And he radios back, and he goes, there's nobody home.

The house looks secure. Tell them to count their kids again. And like that will like, I'll just text that line to my sister and it'll like start a whole thing. But that's like, to me, the A plus of a Chicago cop line deliveries over. It's just a Chicago pizza with a badge. Essentially. And yeah, I was, I was hearing a little bit of that in your IMDB game description and good for you for that. No, I think my closest to a Chicago dialect is.

my what do you queer guy what do you queer you pull that line out a lot I'm very fascinated by what the origin of that is but uh it's just it's a very you know the character you watch if you watch anything from the 30s or 40s you know that guy

uh James Cagney eat your heart out okay so would you like to go first or guess first I think I want to give to you first okay okay so uh one of the awards contenders in this season

who we both really like this performance quite a bit apparently he's this season playing a drag queen and everyone's talking about Jamie wonder if he could get nominated for a drag performance noted heterosexual Barbara Streisand Stan

Richard E. Grant. I love Richard E. Grant. What a nice man. What a nice man. Seems lovely, seems wonderful. We failed to mention when we did our About Time episode, and I was kicking myself afterwards. We talked about the sort of like delightful randomness of having Richard E. Grant and Richard Griffiths show up in the play that Tom Hollander's character directs in that film. And I forgot to make the connection that, of course, both of those two were in the film with Nell and I, the sort of cults, British comedy with Nell and I that was a nice little cheeky reunion

for those two characters anyway, now I'm saying it so don't think I wasn't I didn't have that in the recess of my brain because I did. Okay, now the business at hand. Richard E. Grant, obviously, can you ever forgive me? He's got to be on there. His Oscar nomination. He's so great in that. His last scene in that film

breaks me down every single time. And because it's not necessarily trying to get you to break down is just like he's not ever necessarily trying to get you a laugh. Like, his best lines in that movie are so thrown away and they're so funny. I'm banned from Dwayne Reed is the funniest thing I've heard in a movie in years. It's great. Okay. So now we get into which large ensemble movie that I've maybe forgotten that he's in. Actually, I'm going to guess with Nail and I

Because that's a possibility Ah, damn it, I thought you were going to forget That you brought it up Yeah, all right It's there, yes Okay Now we're getting into things like Now I'm trying to remember

Is it him who's in Spice World? I do believe he is in Spice World, however It's not there Spice World is not there So if, I'm scrolling through If Spice World shows up, that is a wrong guess sir. Ah, yes, he is in Spice World, so wrong guess. Yeah, okay. All right.

Um, I don't think he's in love, actually. Spice Up Your Life. He probably could have been in Love Actually. Spice Up Your Life is my favorite Spice Girl song, by the way. Spice Up Your Fucking Life, Joseph. When they performed that at the closing ceremonies of the London Olympics, can I tell you that I lived? Because for one moment there.

With the mini-coops. yes what a great I was like this should be a theme park ride I need to say very briefly I know we're tangenting like crazy in this episode the London Olympics opening and closing ceremonies which I know got a lot of flack for Danny Boyle

recreating Hobbiton essentially in an arena setting and like Kenneth Branagh showing up is like an old steam engine person or something I don't even know what the fuck was going on he essentially like the history of Britain unfolded at Wembley Stadium. No, he just serves a Nobel Peace Prize for reuniting the Spice Girls for our benefit.

For global benefit. I don't know whether he directed the closing ceremonies, though, but like so much of... Yeah, no, Nobel Peace Prize, for sure. I love every cheesy bit of that entire opening ceremonies from London. It was so wonderful. Anyway, back to Richard E. Grant. I don't think he's in love, actually. although it feels like he could have been, right?

I'm not guessing love, actually. No. Okay, you're not guessing love, actually. Which is good for you because he is not. He's not an inner guy. I didn't think so. Okay. He is, though, in, I'm pretty sure, 99.9% sure he's in Gosford Park.

And given the history of Gosford Park on the IMDB game, I can't not guess it. Joseph, well done. He is in Gosford Park. It is the first listed title for him. Oh, that's interesting. First and is known for. Okay. He won't be in there for about time.

And none of this is like television, right? No. Or voice. All right, what other things? I'm telling you, he's in all these, like, ensembles and, like, big British castes. And, like, was he ever in a Guy Ritchie film? I don't know. But, like, I wouldn't be surprised.

It wouldn't shock me. And, like, he's been an actor for a very long time. So was it something recent? I almost want to, like, blow a guess just to... Like... I mean, okay, he's in... the Nutcracker in the Four Realms. I don't think it's going to be one of those,

but I'm just going to guess it. Not Cricker on the Four Realms. That is not it. He's also in Rise of Skywalker, and Rise of Skywalker is not there. He is. Which was surprising. Okay, so your movie is from 1991. Oh, my God.

Okay. Ninety-one. Is it the commitments? No. Okay. It's an American movie. He's fifth build. This is a famous bomb.

Oh. Very famous bomb. Was Hudson Hawk that year? It is Hudson Hawk. No, shit. Wow. I've never seen Hudson Hawk, obviously. I did not realize he's in that.

Neither have I, and it is a multiple Razzie Award winner. Was he nominated for a Razzie? I hope not. He was not. No. Now I'm looking up Hudson Hawk. His character's name is Darwin Mayflower. Oh, no way.

He was nominated for Razzie for this. That sucks. How dare you. How dare you indeed. He's a nice man. They also nominated for Razzies. They also nominated Sandra Bernhard for worth supporting actress. Fuck you, Razies.

Yeah. Fuck off. If you want to hate Hudson Hawk, hate somebody else in it. Hate Bruce Willis. We all hate Bruce Willis. He fucking sucks. Did they nominate Bruce Willis? I just clicked out of the page because I want to say.

they nominated Richard E. They nominated Willis. They nominated it for worst picture and worse screenplay and worst director. But like, yes, they did nominate Bruce Willis. So there was at least that. All right. Well, Richard E. Grant at least wasn't nominated for a Razzie for Spice World. Thank God. All right. I, for you, went the Steve McQueen route. One of the stars of his best picture winning 12 Years of Slave, a movie that has, uh, very, very, Nine million people in it? One of whom, though, and one of whom who has one of my favorite scenes in that film, is Ms. Alfrey Woodard. It's just spectacular scene in that movie. Spectacular actress, spectacular scene. She's been in eight billion things, and I am just going to tell you up front that her IMDB known for is maybe the wildest I've ever seen. Oh, wow. Okay.

In terms of the movies that you remember her for versus what's actually there. versus what's there. Okay. I mean, she only has the one scene in 12 years of slave, but I'm going to guess that it's there. Correct. Twelve years of slave. Okay. Hmm. The wildest assemblage of movies. So it's not going to be things that I might think that might be there like clemency, which she should have been nominated for. No TV No TV No TV No TV Um

Huh I'm gonna say Heart and Souls No Even though she should be there For Heart and Souls Oh see I would have thought That you would have thought

That that was wild No wilder than heart and souls Okay I could see a version of a heart and soul's poster that has her on it so uh that disqualifies that okay what's that she plays like a lot of diplomats she does no tv so not miss ever's boys no emmy winning role in that i'm gonna guess a movie that i know that she is in that a lot of people have shown up for but you maybe wouldn't it's not like alfrey woodard for this movie um primal

Fear. No, I fucking love her in primal fear, though. Damn it. A plus judge work in that film. She gives a classic watch yourself counselor in that film that, like, I thrill at every time. One of our finest living performers. All right, so that's two wrong guesses. I feel like it's not going to help me.

Your years are 1996, 2001, and 2016. Oh, boy. So a real spread. It's 2001, like, I am Sam? No. I am Sam. I don't. Let me look.

2001. We're just talking about 2001, so. No, the only theatrical release that she's in in 2001 is this film. Okay. 96. 96 is the primal fear year. It is. Is it another?

like, is it the same genre as primal fear? So, like, is she a diplomat or... I don't know. The nature of her role may be diplomat-esque. I've never seen this movie. Okay. Even though it is popular among its fan base. In fact...

Fanbase being particular for this movie or it's like part of a franchise? It's part of a franchise. and the fan base really likes this movie, one of the best of all of them. Uh-huh, okay. From the mid-90s, is it... Oh, it's not an animated movie, because there's no voices.

Is it, like, a Star Trek movie? Maybe. Okay, so it's a Star Trek movie. Is it... It's not generations. is it first contact. Star Trek First Contact. Okay, cool.

Thank you to my Trekkie husband. Trekkies really like that one, right? I'm not lying? Yeah, I think he likes that one. That's the one with the board, right? That's the one with Alice Gris is the board. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

2016 and 2001. 2016. Okay, I'm going to try to get that one. Because that's semi-recent, so it's basically five years old. Yes. What was she doing at that time? She was doing so much TV then. Yes.

Okay. I... It was a very big moneymaker that year. I don't think the number one of that year, but like up there. Okay. What were the huge movies in 2016? Now I'm going to look up box office budget. God, why can't I remember any movie that made money in 2016?

It's those recent years. Okay, so it's one of the biggest moneymakers. Was it a Marvel movie? Uh-huh. Okay, 2016 Marvel. That's Post-Avengers, but... No, that makes total sense that she's in the MCU. Is it...

Of course, there's a server error on box office mojo. Well, I'm not on box office mojo. No, but I am. I'm trying to... Oh, okay. That's not an Iron Man movie, I don't think. Is it Captain America? Is it a Captain America? Yes.

Oh, it was the... number one movie of that year. I am sorry. It was. Oh. Well, that tracks if it was, is it Civil War? Yes, it's Civil War. Okay. She's at the very beginning of Captain American Civil War. She lays a guilt trip on, uh, on Tony Stark and sets him off on his whole weird emotional journey in that film. Is that her only Marvel movie? That's all she shows up to do? Well, she ends up being a major character on Luke Cage, the television series. Luke Cage is a totally different character. That's weird.

And that was like that same year, essentially. She shows up on Luke Cage. But yeah, that was a weird little quirk of that. Okay. What was my other year that you said she only made this movie? 2001. I have not seen this movie, but also I was surprised to learn she was in it. Okay, well, then I guess you can't answer the question.

I was going to ask if she was like a bureaucrat or judge again, but... She's not a judge. I can say that just from looking at her credit in the film. She is fourth billed, according to IMDB. Is she a senator? No. Okay. What other titles would someone have? Is she a military person? No. She a doctor? Yes.

Okay. Doctor 2001. Definitely a movie we could end up. doing for this podcast, and I think it would be a wild ride. Okay, so it's a bad movie. Yes, reportedly. I've never seen it. Where she plays a doctor. What are movies where there are doctors? Trying to think of, she could be a therapist, but I'm trying to think of, like, hospital movies?

Not having seen the movie, but knowing the premise. my guess is she was probably a psychologist of some sort okay 2001 bad psychologist movie so like what would a psychologist or perhaps a team of psychologists be working on someone's psychosis is it kapax it's freaking kpx absolutely not justice for alfrey woodard's known for. Like, is that not the most insane? Like, oh, hey, Alphrey Woodard. What do you think of when you think of Alphrey Woodard?

Well, I think of Captain America's Civil War in K-Pax. Is she like third build in K-Pax? Maybe that's it. She's fourth build in K-Pax. Yep. It's Jeff Bridges, Kevin Spacey, Mary McCormick, and then her. As far as IMDB is concerned, at least. Gotcha.

Yeah. Wild and crazy kids is what I say to all of that. Wild and crazy kids. not fucking passion fish Not whatever Cross Creek that she was an Oscar nominated for Not the superlative beauty shop Which Lord knows

I love her in I'm trying to think of what else I would put on An Alfrey Woodard like obviously heart and souls For sure What's that? Clemency Clemency Yes, Clemency

Recent good Great in Miss Evers boys Frickin Crooklyn She's so wonderful in Crooklyn. These are a lot of titles that I would have guessed if you hadn't told me that her known for was so wild. No. So seek out Passion Fish, y'all.

She and Mary MacDonald are A++ opposite each other. I believe it's on prime right now because I've had it on my list for a minute. Nice. All right. Good job. Yeah, noise. All right. That's it.

That's our Widows episode. At long last, we hope you guys enjoyed it. We did it. It's a movie we love. you guys. This is also coming on the week of Christmas. You guys, Merry Christmas if you celebrate. If you don't, we still love you and we hope you're having a relaxing end to a not so great year. Exactly. All of that, that Chris said, and more. All right, that is our episode. If you want more of this had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.com. You could all, you,

sorry, you should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find you and your stuff. On Twitter at Krispy File, that's F-E-I-L, also on letterboxed under the same name. Yes. Do that. Follow Chris. He's wonderful. All right, I am on Twitter at Joe Reed, read-spelled REID.

I'm also on letterboxed as Joe Reed. Read spelled the exact same way. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever else you get podcasts now including Spotify. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts Visibility.

So please sprint Cynthia Arrivo style to your nearest app and give us a rave. God, we didn't talk about Cynthia's arms. We didn't. All right, quick little minute-long sidebar on Cynthia Revo in this movie. She runs like a goddamn Terminator, and I love it. Like, truly brings me joy. If we still had original action movies,

like there was the time where we said, let's get Viola Davis an action movie. She's getting it. I think Gina Prince, by the wood. We need an original action movie for Cynthia Revo. Absolutely. Half-Robot, half-amazing. Love her so much.

Also, it would have been a great scene to let her sing, but I always want Cynthia Reeve to sing. They apparently filmed it and cut it. Really? Yes. Mother effort. Just like Andre Holland was almost in this movie. This is why we have DVD extras.

Why don't we have the footage? Exactly. All right. That's it. That's all for this week. But we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye. Thank you.