This Had Oscar Buzz - 128 – Cats

Episode Date: January 18, 2021

It’s time to finally talk about such serious things as digital fur technology and the perils of tribalism – you’ve been begging for it, we’re finally talking about Cats. Our first Class of 2019 film discussed on the podcast, Cats was announced to the immediate revulsion of many, but Oscar predictors saw some possibility thanks to the participation … Continue reading "128 – Cats"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. No, I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilynne Heck. I haven't seen you before, have I? Open up enter me. If you find there the meaning of what happiness is, then a new life

We're about to begin. Here we go, ha-ha! week on this head Oscar buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with my Napoleon of Crime. Chris Fyle. Hello, Chris. I, um, you have not named me appropriately. All of the cats in this episode are to be named the ad dressing of the cats. You know, good and well, that I, and the stale cold smell of mourning.

I'm, of all the things that, like, surrounded cats and the hype and the whatever, I'm surprised that there was never an effort to do a bot that would, like, give you your cat name, your proper jellical name, but I think we'd- Imagine the marketing plan for this movie was ill-begotten. But I also feel like the, it's such a convoluted thing, the whole, the naming of cats, and how many names a cat must have, and one is, is typical, and several others are varying degrees of more and more Byzantine and complicated. Like, I feel like it would confound a mere bot to be able to connote a jellical name upon someone.

I don't know. I mean, I would much rather run, like, the faces of the cat in this movie through, like, nefarious face recognition technology and see what. happens. Now I'm imagining just like you're scanning the cat faces and then they show up at like the CIA is like does not compute, does not compute. They show up at like various times throughout history like in the old guard where all of a sudden it was just like, they were there all along. They were there at Lincoln's assassination.

Jellicles. Yeah, exactly. Jellicles. A problem throughout history. And a problem in 2019. A problem for this movie, including how they're like, what is a jellicle? Let's sing a song about it. it. Now you know what a jellicle is.

A jellicle is a jellicle. Like, it's the most, like, tautological thing ever. It's just like, well, you would know if you know. So, yeah. If they wish to be called a jelical, call them a jellicle. Right. Whatever you want. Whatever they want.

Just let the jellical cats do what they want. Except, according to Tom Hooper, this is about the perils of tribalism. So, like, it is, like, it is, like, Like, if I think I am a jellicle, then I am a jellicle. But to the jellicles, it's like, no, you're not one of us. That's true. They are the most tribal of cats. Right, right.

It's so funny because, like, I am one to give a long leash to directors who want to impart some kind of high-minded, you know, fooferra or whatever on their film. Because, like, whatever, that's what filmmakers are. supposed to do. They're supposed to take it a lot more seriously than the rest of us, and that's fine. But like, that particular one is so easy to latch in on because it's just like, it's really not, even if you take the story of cats as seriously as you want to take it, it's not so much about tribalism as it is about just like that one smelly cat gets bullied the whole movie and finally at the end. Because they used to be an asshole. Right. Is that the deal? And then they're like, guys, I'm not

an asshole anymore. Wait, Isabella used to be an asshole? I don't, I don't. Yeah, I thought that's why she was ostracized because she was the glamor cat. She got all like, famous and rich and wealthy. And then, like,

that fell through. She got all dingy. And in the meantime, they're like, no, we don't like you anymore, girl. And she's trying to get back in with them. See, okay. Memory is all about, like, I've learned from my ways. I'm a good person now. Touch me.

please. I see, the way I have interpreted it, is that Grisabella was the glamor cat and was like all like beautiful and famous and whatever. And then like hit a bump in the road. Everybody else who was like. Oh, you think they don't like Grisabella because she's ugly now? No, I know. I think they've, I think they had sharpened their claws as it were and waited for the moment for Grisabella to like hit a bump in the road. And then all of a sudden it was just like now. we're turning on this bitch and we did and then she fell in because the whole thing about in this that they'm pretty sure is not in the musical at all is they're like and then she fell in with macavity who in this movie is styled as a pim yeah i don't think that's anything and it's like the implication is just like then she started like turning tricks for macavity or something like there's a whole other level of like stuff happening here that i'm just like i don't remember that at all so you think the jellicles don't like her anymore because they think she's a prostitute yes slut shaming cats is about Slutshaming. Yes. Yes. That's what I feel like. Yes. That is my interpretation. Okay. Just in the film. In the stage production, it's a lot more non-concrete. There's a lot more left to interpretation, which I think is probably better for something like cats that you leave it, especially as it, you know, famously is based on a book of T.S. Eliot poems that are just sort of like little larks or whatever. And then Andrew Lloyd-Weber,

who also decided to take this material probably more seriously than it needed to be. But we'll get into the whole day. I want to get to your sort of like historical experience of cats, like when you sort of first became aware of cats, because like this was a thing where I remember being aware of the stage production of cats from a very young age, despite the fact that I didn't grow up in New York City, and I didn't grow up with, like, an awareness of Broadway as a thing, but we would get, we had in Buffalo, where I grew up, WPI, which is a New York City television station, we would get that station, because it was like, whatever, it was like a super

station, like TBS used to be. And we would get ads for cats all the time, all the time, like constantly. It would be like the one thing that I remember seeing theater ads for was cats. And you remember the logo. Did you see the costumes or whatever in the TV ads? Yes. You would see like you would see the logo with like with like the cat eyes and like whatever like the dancing silhouettes and the cat eyes. But yeah, they would show you like the people dressed as cats and the shots from the show. And so I

remember just being like incredibly aware of like there is a thing in New York, a stage production called Cats, and it's seemingly about Cats, and it's a little scary, and it's a little, like, sexy, and I'm, like, 10 or whatever, but, like, it's the only thing I, and the only other stage, the only other theater ads that I ever got were for Phantom up in Toronto, because we would get the Canadian stations, too, and Phantom would play, was in Toronto, like, all, like, constantly. So, those, that's what I was aware of, uh, as the was those two, and I had no idea at the time that they were these like maligned Andrew Lloyd-Weber things and that like theater snobbery was as such that like Katz was insanely popular and ran

forever, but anybody who like really loved theater hated it and had no idea that that was a whole thing. I guess for my origins for Katz was also like a touring thing. It came shortly after Phantom had toured here, I believe for the first time. And it was like, huge thing. Fandom was here for a month, whatever. I very famously, very begrudgingly, I still, listen, I can hold a grudge, especially if it's not taking me to a certain theater event, and I did not get to go to see Fandom when I would have been all of six years old or whatever, but then Cats came. I knew nothing about Cats except for Andrew Lloyd Weber, and it was like a thing, but, like, I never saw a TV ad with costumes. No idea what the show was.

just knew that it was Andrew Lloyd Webber. Like, most of my family went, like, when I say that, we had a row of the theater. Oh, wow. And, like, I don't think anybody really knew what we were watching because we were all there. We were all excited. And by the time we left, everyone was like, huh. You guys were the Giordano's in the third row from the Elaine Stritch story at Liberty about pal joey. that she just gave that entire family

tickets to the show. That was you guys, but it was cats. It was. However, I was seated on the aisle, not knowing what the hell was, but still excited. Hadn't seen, like, if I saw a TV at it,

it might have had, like, a melody with, like, the logo on it, but I definitely didn't see, like, I had no idea what the vibe was. Didn't know about the costumes, like, whatever. So, like, the, the, Overture is playing, and all of the sudden I have a cat in my face on the aisle. One of the cat performers with, like, glowing eyes, because I think, like, they come out with, like, a thing on their face, and, like, was in my face, me, a child, and I just was like, what the fuck?

And then I think I blacked out for the rest of the show. You missed... Because I don't really have... You missed the Jellicle Ball. I did. I think it was just like maybe they blew some drugs in my face or something, but, like, I don't remember the experience of watching cats. I just remember my family kind of silently leaving the theater when it was over.

Just filing out processing what they had experienced. Indeed. But then, like, two or so years later is when Cats becomes available on home video, the one that they produce for the BBC, it's just a recording of the show. So, like, then I watched that, and I was like, this is not good. But I don't remember 75% of what I'm watching.

Right. And I think partly that is, like, my entrance into musical theater was, like, much more plotty. Right. Andrew Lloyd-Weber musicals or, like, Little Shop of Horrors where, like, these things move along.

And cats, which, like, is something that the non-theater people who have shit on this movie I think didn't understand going into it. It's truly just a bunch of songs about cats. Cats. It's about cats. Singing cats, you'll love it.

Like, this cat gets a song. It's like nine intro numbers and then it's done. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And the movie does, I think really poorly, does this thing of introducing this character so you can kind of go on a journey.

with it rather than like yes yes Victoria played by Francesca Howard or Hayward sorry um and it like the thing about going to see cats as a stage show is like this is all for you right right like the cats are speaking to you right they are dressing you right and it's like it's it's this weird alchemy that when they introduce this character, you think that it makes it more palatable, but it actually makes it weirder? Yeah, it actually alienates the audience more, which it seems like the opposite of what they want to do.

They seem to want to engage the audience in more of a story, which is also why so many of the songs that, as you say, in the stage production are addressed directly to the audience are, or like, are one cat singing, telling the audience about this other cat? Like, Mastopheles is sung by actually Rum Tugger to the audience to tell you about Mastafelis. And like in the movie, a lot of those songs and a lot of those lyrics are become first person. So Mastophiles is singing about himself. And like Jenny Ani Dots or whatever is, well, that one is more what the stage production is. But you know, you see what I mean, right? Where it's just like, it becomes

them interacting with their own, you know, story and we are observing the story. But yeah, a big thing, a big problem with that is, is that the Victoria character is so thin and like from a plot perspective. It's just like there's nothing to her. Like, we see at the very beginning, she's just sort of like dropped in the alley in a bag or whatever. And then all of a sudden the movie becomes her like journey to belong with this like jellical tribe of uh of cats but there's no real resistance to that and there's no real rhyme or reason to why like she sort of proceeds through these things the way that they plot up maccavity where all of a sudden macavity becomes this like abductor of cats and it's just

like has magical disappearing powers and also like a purgatory barge and all this sort of stuff and it's just like none of this is making this story more interesting and if you this is it sort of you know we'll get into digital for technology eventually but like the attempts by this movie to make it more like quote unquote realistic are a useless and be more alienating. Like, every single choice that Hooper seems to make is more alienating to the audience. And I still think, in its best case, the best case scenario for a Katz movie would turn off 50% of the audience anyway. Yes, probably.

Like, Katz has to stay weird and he tries to make it not weird. And part of the problem with this movie is the problem with most Tom Hooper movies is, like, it's approached from such a pretentious place. Yeah. Like, it's almost like you can feel him looking down his nose at what Katz is at every single point and, like, him telling you what it should be. And, yeah, like, every time that I'd read, like, he'd had some attachment to Cats, like, he saw it when he was eight years old or whatever. It was like, the movie does not show that you like Cats. The movie shows that you think that on a conceptual level, Cats is bad. Here's the thing, too.

It's like, and I know, like, you, you know, saw it when you were younger and were traumatized by it and whatever and don't think it's very good. I'm very fond of the cat's musical, having not seen it until I was an adult, right? And just like I saw, I didn't even see like the London record, like the recorded version of the London production until I was a full adult. And then when they had the Broadway revival a few years ago. I saw it twice. I only paid for it once, but I saw it twice. And I'm really fond of it. It is what it is.

I say it all the time. It's not good. It's not bad. It's cats. It's ridiculous, but in a way that I really appreciate. And I think a lot of the songs are actually really, like, tuneful to my ear. And the story is, of course, ridiculous and barely there. But I'm very fond of it.

And I think... The thing is, I think if there's anyone who's primed, to like Katz the stage musical. It is you, Joseph, I love dancing. Yes. Yeah.

Because cats really is like, it has these like tuneful songs. Some of them are like not so duneful. But like the thing about seeing cats and part of the reason why I think it was a phenomenon on the stage is like a, the New York City theater, uh, like business is,

uh, relying on tourists. And like you can put. Yes. show in front of any audience from around the world, and they all understand it at the same degree. Right. But also, Katz is, like, non-stop dancing.

Yes. On the stage. And, like, some of it is really, really impressive. And, like, I think the best parts of the movie are when you do get, like, beautiful dancing, even if it's these little weird avatar weirers. And a big part of me wants to give the movie credit for being as dance forward as it is. I think one of the best parts of the movie, and we'll get into this because I do want to rank all the musical numbers. I think the jellicle ball is that entirely. It's just like it does take a

moment to just sort of like have, this movie loves a fucking overture, by the way. It really does. And just take a moment to just sort of just like overture the whole movie's worth of songs and have all the cats dance. And I want to give the movie credit for being as unabashed about like we're going to cast a ballet dancer as our lead role. And we're going to cast, you know, Robbie Fairchild and the, now I'm forgetting the cats who play Mastophiles and Skimble Shanks, but like dancers, dancers forward, right? And I want to give it so much credit for that, because that's what I appreciate. I appreciate that the movie has a movie that has, that's what you want more screen musicals to do. Right. And yet, the movie fumbles everything around it so

much that it, like, totally does a disservice to those dancing scenes. And I, like, again, as I said, the best version of this movie that had, that was as, dance forward as this is, would turn off American film audiences who, like, hate dancing. Like, like, they just, this is not what American audiences are looking for in films is a 12-minute, you know, ballet sequence or whatever. Of people in cat costumes. Right. But it would have... That's the best version of the movie would have been, if it would have been intentionally, mindfully, weird.

and just accepting of what it is, rather than trying to create some type of reality that is a futile gesture. But, like, and we'll do the plot description soon because I want to get onto the other side and really talk about it, but talk about, like, the way that the development of this movie was received, and I do feel like there were a lot,

it wasn't disingenuousness in the way that the film production was followed, but there was a lot of unnecessary incredulity in the way that it was followed. I'm thinking specifically of when the sort of news, quote-unquote, news came around that the cats would be cat-sized. And everybody was just like, I, like, just laughing their asses off and just being just like, I, that seems so bizarre and it seems so strange. And it's just like, all it means is that the sets are going to be big, you guys.

Like, that's what it was like in the stage show. just like there was a lot of people who were unfamiliar with what cats actually is that were just sort of like making a big deal out of things that were not a big deal. And ultimately, there was plenty of stuff in the finished product to, you know, have a good laugh at because we all, as a culture, did for a while, and it was fine. But I think there was an unfamiliarity with musical theater from much of people who, A, watch films and

B cover films that played into that already had this film being a like all-time punchline disaster before anybody saw any frame of film for it. Yes.

Right? I don't know. Well, I mean, part of that is like even by people who love theater and even by people who love cats, Katz has never been something that has been taken that seriously. Right. And I think we do have a very literalist mindset towards film right now.

Even in like genre film. And like that's been pushed by like photorealistic CGI stuff. That's been pushed by movies like Lord of the Rings where it's like we have to create this reality. Otherwise you won't accept. this thing that is fantastical, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. So, like, Katz is already at a disadvantage just by being made into a feature film.

Right. As is pretty much any movie musical, which is why the way we respond to movie musicals every year feels like, oh, we're doing this again. We're all of a sudden, we're like, anytime anybody is singing on screen, we're just going to react with the same. This is why I have this very ambivalent reaction to. the rowdy screenings, which I do feel like I'm glad that people were having fun with cats finally, because at least like that's, you should be having fun with cats. But I remember when

I saw this in theater for the first time, and it was a few weeks into the run when like the rowdy screenings that happened organically became a thing that then audiences went into the film trying to replicate on their own, which felt so effortful to me and so like obnoxious. It's different if it's like this is a forum to go wild versus people just like showing up to create an unpleasant experience. It touched the same nerve in me, not to the same degree, but like, remember when Follies, the revival of Follies happened a few years ago, and not Follies, Pippin a few years ago with Andrea Martin had the sort of big trapeze number, right? where she's singing and she's, you know, up on the trapeze. And it's incredibly impressive. And there was early on in that show's run, audiences were spontaneously stopping the show

for a standing ovation after that number. And it was, you know, great, like great for Andrea Martin. She totally deserves it. And yet that then became people heard about that. And then that became the expectation. and it happened in every show. Do you know what I mean? And then it's just like, okay, well, this is no longer a spontaneous reaction of delight

and appreciation for this thing. It just becomes a rote, its paces that the audience is going to. Yeah, it's a mechanical response because people want to feel like they're a part of something that was an organic experience. Yes. And that was sort of what I felt about my particular rowdy cat screening. And also part of it was that they were like, they were laughing just whenever people started singing. And it's just like, no, it's a musical.

This is what happens. People sing in musicals. Like, that's not what's funny about this. And I always, I have more of a problem that I probably should with people not enjoying things correctly. Like, I want people to like something, but like in the way that I feel like is appropriate to like something. This was my big problem with the Wolf of Wall Street. I'm just like, no, the wrong people are going to like. this and I hate that.

But anyway, I also think that's a bit. Anyway. I'm getting far away. Before we get into the plot description, we should say this is our first class of 2019 title. We should. Yeah, we've made it now somehow, even though it does not feel like a year has gone by. I swear to fucking God watching this movie, I was like, this movie just came out. Yes.

Yes. And yet we are now over a year from its release. and we have wanted to... Time is a vague construct anymore. Time is a jellical moon. I can't believe Pats is a year and a half full. Yeah. So anyway, yes, our first 2019 movie,

so those floodgates have been opened. We're not going to, like, bombard you with 2019 titles, but every once in a while, we'll throw one in there. And this one, we'll talk about why this had Oscar buzz. This had very specific Oscar buzz. It's not, I think, from a very early stage, people expected this to be a disaster, so it's not like people had this in their best picture top tens, but it had... Yes, but there's still, like, the holdover predictions, especially before we saw anything on the movie, people were like, but it's still a musical, even if it's cats. And it's still Tom Hooper, and there was a cynical thing of just like, even when Tom Hooper makes movies that we think are bad, they still get Oscar nominations.

We'll talk about that. There was also Jennifer Hudson returning to a screen music. with like one of again one of the like big like 11 o'clock numbers of the stage yep yep exactly so uh yeah we'll do that that once we get through the plot description but chris you are in the uh some might say unenviable position i might say enviable position of giving us a cat's plot description i will first run down the basics we are talking this week about the film cats directed by tom hooper written by Lee Hall and Tom Hooper adapted from the stage musical by Andrew Lloyd-Weber, starring, and I went alphabetical because that's the way the film does it at the end, even though it makes James Corden accidentally first build, which I hate. Starring James Corden, Lori Dench, Jason Derulo, Idris Elba, Robbie Fairchild, Jennifer Hudson, Ian McKellen, Taylor Swift, Rebel Wilson, Ray Winstone, and introducing Francesca Hayward.

This film premiered... Always hilarious to remember Ray Winstone is in this movie. Yes, it surely is. Premiered on December 16th, 2019, at the prestigious Alice Tully Hall at Lincoln Center in New York and then opened wide a few days thereafter. So, Chris, let me find my little phone here and prepare for 60 seconds. One second, ready? Are you ready? I am. Go, do, do, do.

Okay, so we meet Victoria, who is a cat who is being dumped off on a city street. Happens that she, like, meets a whole group of cats. They call themselves the jellicle, and this is the night of their jellicle ball, where one of them gets to ascend into the heavens and be reborn as a cat of better circumstance. Anyway, we get to meet all of these cats. sing songs about themselves, to introduce them to her. And meanwhile, there's a villainous cat named McCavity who is, like, making them disappear from the jellicle ball and, like, sending them to a boat somewhere.

30 seconds. That's because he wants to win, and by doing so, his strategy is just to eliminate all the other cats. Anyway, there's also Grizabella, who used to be, like, super, like, beautiful and famous. They ostracize her, but she's, like, lurking on the fringes. Anyway, towards the end, McCavity steals away old Deuteronomy. They're, like, leader who gets to make the jellical choice. Mustafelis brings her back anyway, and then Grisabella's like, touched me, touch all the skin, honey, and they decide she gets the jellical choice. Well done.

And Victoria gets to stay with the cats. And that is time. I find it embarrassing that the best 60-second plot description I have ever done is for cats. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very impressed. It's shameful, really. No, no, it is very impressive.

because honestly, like, this is, there's fantastic capsulization in the plot of this. Okay, so what would you like to talk about first? The digital fur technology or the reasons why a musical like cats would have Oscar Buzz going in. Your choice. I mean, all musicals have Oscar Buzz for the most part, unless it's like, I mean, I don't want to say original musicals don't. But if there is prestige that can be carried over from the stage, it's just like play adaptations have it, too, right? Like, it's lazy thinking, but it's still there. I mean, I think once Chicago won Best Picture so definitively in 2002, tons of nominations, acting wins, lots of nominated.

Almost $200 million in box office. Right, right. It was just such a success at every. level that then that that that expectation and Chicago had been a long running musical even now more long running the revival is now even more long running but like and a project that had been they had been trying to make into a movie for a very long time and I think the success of that then opened the gates and sort of greased the wheels for a lot of other long in development movie musical projects and almost all of them I think we talked about this maybe when

We did Hairspray. Almost all of them end up getting significant Oscar buzz, and a lot of them get nominations or like Golden Globes or whatever. But I just sort of like jotted it down. Chicago in 2002, Phantom of the Opera in 2004, the producers in 2005, Dreamgirls in 2006, Sweeney, Todd, and Hairspray in 2007, Mama Mia in 2008, 9 in 2009,

Le Miz in 2012, into the woods in 2014, and Cats in 2019, and I think there's probably a few... This rent erasure. Oh, my God, and I forgot Rent. I'm so sorry. Yeah, Rent is interesting. I wanted to bring it up when you mentioned about why the people who appreciate cats and sort of what they appreciate it for. And I think you'll find a lot of people who like Cats the Stage Musical.

And, like, they still know what it is. They still know, like, I think you find far fewer people who like cats and are like, that's really profound. Or like that really like, I have an emotional tie to it, right? Whereas like it's, I think I differentiate that from rent. Rent is another hugely successful and landmark stage musical that a lot of people can't stand. But the people who love rent have a deep emotional attachment to it and find a lot of very,

like, they, they love rent in a different way than people who love cats. I'm one of those people. Rent is a foundational text for me. Right, right. This is what I mean. But like both of those, both cats and Rent have like a significant number of detractors who maybe don't hate them in the same way. But it's the similar way where it's just like, I think it comes down to just like, guys, it's so dorky. And it's just like, yes, yes, but they're great.

Okay. But it's also like part of the reason why it thrived on Broadway so long is that it's a great show for families because like a child watching this show has a completely different experience than we as cynical adults do. I always think about Julie Klausner talked about when the revival was happening. She like went expecting to go and like hate her life during it. But she looks over and sees this little girl like living her full life. Yeah. And she starts crying watching this little girl like adoring this show and falling in love with falling in love with musical theater and all this. And that's what Katz is. And like that I think is the primary failure of the movie because Tom Hooper you would tell that story to Tom Hooper and I think

it would just be like stone faced right like he turns it into this whole pretentious like back to that perils of tribalism like yeah all of the like talking points about this movie you can absolutely do an Amy Adams London Banking connection voice the perils of tribalism where it's like every, I think every, like, decision that he makes with this movie kind of takes it away from what it is in his purest form. Yes. To, and when you do that, it, if, instead of becoming, you know, it's not going to be everybody's cup of tea, it becomes something laughable.

Like, the funniest stuff in this movie to me is the things that it's just like, he is taking this too seriously. Right. Well, and also, and the moments that are, that are more whimsical are handled so, like, ham-fistedly. I'm thinking of, like, old Gumby Cat number, the Jenny Anydots number, or Bustopher Jones. The two big, the two big sort of, like, comedic set pieces, right? And that's why you cast Rebel Wilson and James Corden and stuff like that. And it's just like, but it's so, the tone is so unbalanced and so often, it's so, uh, grotes.

and not fun and not enjoyable. And those two performers, well, Rebel Wilson, first of all, is not a musical performer and should not have been cast just because she's ostensibly funny. And James Corden is a musical performer, and I think his performance with a better surrounding production probably would have worked fine. But I think the two, and also the fact that those two numbers

come so close to each other. It's those two bookend, I think, the Rumtum Tugger number, if I'm not mistaken. With the exception of Jason DeRullo and Jennifer Hudson, like the most famous people in this movie get maybe the worst numbers. Well, I think Ian McKellen acquits himself quite well. Ian McCollin is actually good in this movie. Yes, yes. So maybe that's not fair. Maybe what I should say is the worst numbers in this show are at the beginning.

I was going to say, this really frontload. Yes, it front loads its worst aspects in a really aggressive way. But the other problem that I have with this, this is not, I don't think Tom Hooper is going for, and I don't think he would think he's going for something that is, you know, the proverbial grim and dark or whatever. And yet the production design of this is so alienating in its like colors and hues and sort of this weird, like purple glowiness that I find really, putting, which also actually, and I didn't mention when I ran down the musicals of the prom 2020, but it has a similar sort of like glowy purple color palette to the prom, which I also didn't find very appealing when it's really just kind of like, oh.

Yeah, it feels music video-ish. Memed photo of Ryan Gosling in Blade Runner 2049, where it's like that scene realizes that this color palette is like queasy for an audience. Right, and it's smart enough to not keep it throughout the entire movie. The only film that has ever done gemtones correctly

is hustlers, and I will stand by that. And also that movie also knows enough to not do it throughout the entire movie. This film is not that but also like, I think the digital fur thing is the same thing, where it's just like the intention seems

to be to make everything seem more quote unquote realistic. They need to look more like cats. That's the whole story, that Daily Beast article, about the poor VFX people who were terrorized in this film. Working 90 hour weeks when Tom Hooper would berate them on Zoom or Skype or whatever. And all I'm imagining is just like, I'm imagining like it's the Bruno Gans downfall clip, but it's Tom Hooper just being like more like

cats, more, more, more. Give them. a battle. Right. And like, but, like, that doesn't make the audience feel better. Like, that's it. Like, you look at the stage production. And again, I think the laziest criticism of a movie musical is it should have been more like the stage production. And yet, I'm going to be saying that. Because, like, you look at what they did in the stage production, where it was just like, it's elaborate makeup. I read a really interesting oral history of the Broadway production of Cats that was on Vulture last year in the lead up to the movie, that talked about just how elaborate the makeup was and how sort of daunting the, you know, the costuming and the makeup

and having to sort of like wear all of this makeup and you're dancing constantly, so you're sweating constantly. Sweating it off. And all of this. But like, but if you look at the stage production, it's a lot. It's extra as fuck. But it's, it's an aesthetic. It's a real aesthetic.

And they don't look like. Like your cat that you've got in your living room, right? They don't look like that. But you, like, but they're cats. They're, you know, what the stage show needs is. Well, it presents like a cohesive world where all of the pieces are kind of working together so that when you sit down in front of this thing, you, I mean, you probably don't buy it. But like, you are seeing a complete vision, right?

Whereas this feels like it's chasing pieces of different. aesthetics from other movies. Old Deuteronomy in the stage production looks like if you took a particularly heavy shag carpet and just draped it over him. Like he's walking around with just like a full shaggy, like, carpet moo-moo, the entire production, because Old Deuteronomy is the only cat who doesn't need to dance. Everybody else is in like skin-type body suits and, you know, makeup whiskers. And like, that's also fine.

And Judy Dench's old Juderonomy Every time you say that it does sound like a hate crime I will not lie Like it does sound accidentally Okay then we'll call her Denteronomy Um Denteronomy has a fur coat coat on

So it looks like this is the coat Of the cat that went to the heaviside layer Last year Like she is wearing another cat I have so many questions That's also the styling of Grisabella, too, which on the stage is, like, Grisabella's whole thing is that she looks like she's wearing a ratty fur coat on the stage. And in this, it's like, that is present, but it's also on top of this, like, digital fur.

So it's... Who did she kill? Wait, who did who kill? Oh, who did Grisabella kill? Both of them, I guess, that they're wearing fur coats. Yeah, well, fur is murder, so, you know, no one would believe that more than the Jelical cats. So, yeah, I think the, and digital fur technology became such a punchline, and I think that deservedly so, because it sounds... And London Banking Connections, Digital Fur Technology.

Yeah, I'm saying it's just like, it sounds so ridiculous, but also it just, it wasn't necessary in this, like, just because you can CGI fur onto humans to make them look like weird, glowy, fuzzy monsters. Like, doesn't mean you should. It's... It's like, people don't realize there's a reason that the first Avatar movie was in post-production for, like, two and a half years, maybe it was longer. But, like, to get that level of photo real CGI, you can't just, like, do that overnight. You have to have thousands of people working for a long time. And, like, they shot this movie a year before it opened.

The story is they spent, like, six months working just on the trailer and then had four months for the rest of the movie, which feels like is probably twisting a truth, but we'll take that as gospel. But that the visual effects were not finished until, like, hours before the premiere, and then they had to later pull those prints and replace them with better corrected VFX. Like, it was, it's amazing that a major studio. production would release unfinished this way. Like, I do wonder if this will impact, like, I can't, I don't know what Tom Hooper has

on the horizon. I'm sure he probably does, because he's, you know, seems to be Teflon about all this sort of stuff. But I can't imagine a studio wanting to sign up for the next Tom Hooper movie. I mean, not something that's going to be a large budget and probably not a musical. Thank God. Ever again. Never again. I mean, the visual effects problems that happened with the print that was released,

it was things like dancers, like, clearly appearing, like, their feet aren't on the floor. They're supposed to just be standing there. Judy Dench's human hand with a wedding ring showing up in the final number, which, by the way, they didn't fix that or they put the wrong version on HBO, because I watched it on HBO. That's her whole ass human hand. with a human ring on it. Yeah. Judy Dench is an interesting story in this. Judy Dench, which

I didn't realize until I looked into this. I must have missed this little tidbit during the run-up to the movie, but that she had originally been cast in the London stage production, the original London stage production of Cats. She was going to play, I think they said the

dual role of Grizzabella and Jenny Any Dodds and that she injured her Achilles tendon, which is not a pleasant injury from what I am given to understand, right before. And she was replaced by Elaine Page, who then sort of got famous from playing Grisabella, or at least, like, I don't know. I don't know British fame.

Again, don't correct me. British people, stop it. But whatever, Elaine Page got a huge career boost from Cats. Yeah, Elaine Page is, like, the UK lady of the stage. Yeah. So, um, casting. For after chess, it should be chess in my book. See, I knew, I knew I would get it wrong.

Fine, fine. No, I don't, I don't know. I'm asking the question. I'm also asking the question because you and I are chess gays. I do love chess. Another one I came to very, very recently. I didn't really grow up listening to the chess original cast album. I think...

Catch us doing, I know him so well at karaoke for that is a thing again. Oh, God, if we can ever get... allowed to leave our homes again. Yeah, would totally do that. But, yeah, Andrew Lloyd Weber is interesting in that way in terms of just like, I know Andrew Lloyd Weber wasn't chess, but like people who sort of like, oh, I grew up with X and Y. I grew up listening to the Phantom, or at least like when I was in like junior high, because

that was our eighth grade trip was we went up to Toronto to see Phantom. I know a lot of people who were like, oh, I grew up with the Jesus Christ Superstar album. or like you had gone to see cats when you were very younger. And that is a thing that I think people come to people like Stephen Sondheim when they're older and when they're more, you know, more mature and have more refined tastes and yad, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But Andrew Lloyd Weber feels like level one for a lot of people. And like, and there is a bombast to his stuff that I do, I can.

cannot deny that I do find appealing in certain contexts, in a lot of contexts. And that's why I'm, you know, a dork for a lot of aspects of cats and a lot of the musical numbers in cats, which I do agree that, like, there's, there's the quality, you know, varies wildly. But I wanted to, I texted you two days ago. And I was like, be prepared to rank the musical numbers in this film, because I wanted to, like, get to some of them definitely work better than others. Not even the best of them don't, like, ever really reach, like, the heights, the heights of, like, greatness. But, like, there's a couple, there's at least a couple things that are really good in this.

And then there are a few that are so bad and make me so angry, partially because their stage equivalents are pretty good. I think there's at least one number in this that I hated so much in the film that I really found kind of delightful on the stage. So I ranked, so I ranked everything. I ranked one through like 17. I included even like the little like small little like interstitials or whatever, even if I didn't like, I sort of lumped. My number nine through 12 are just like a lump of sort of like the smaller.

The bad songs, most of them at the beginning of the musical. But then I have like my bottom five and then my top eight. And I don't know. How many did you rank? we can do a top eight okay i'll just go through then my like what's at the bottom of mine and we'll clear that to try this out so number 17 the last one old gumby cat the jenny any dots number which rebel wilson i find so obnoxious in this and i don't always feel that way i do i get why she has an appeal to certain people in projects and like she's been good in things but

But I just find her incredibly off-putting in this. And also, she can neither sing nor dance. So what are we doing? The thing is, like, Katz does have to be earnest, and there's something about her performance that does feel cynical, like she's looking down her nose at what she's doing. Yeah, she's barely making an effort. Yeah. I hate it.

Number 16, Mungo Jerry and Rumpel Teaser, which I find really delightful on stage. It's sort of playful and whatever. and it's, you know, it's not much of a song, but it's like, it's da-da-da-da-da, it's like fun. And for whatever reason, the arrangement in the film is tuneless, and they cast great dancers, I'm sure, but, like, why, I get why you cast a name person who can't sing, like, Rebel Wilson? Why don't Rumpel Ties for Mongo Jerry sing in this film? Like, they're talk singing throughout this entire thing, as if they were, like, A-listers who they cast for their, like, marquee value. I don't understand. Okay, but that is a number that I was going to, like, maybe save this for more, like, analysis for the film, even though we're talking about the thing of the movie.

We're talking about the worst numbers at this point in this conversation. Yes. And I think this movie would be vastly improved if you cut Rebel Wilson's James Gordon and this number. And I realize, especially Mungo Jerry and Rumpel teaser, is probably cutting that is probably sacrilege to some of the purists for cats. But, like, first of all, this movie is two hours long, and that is a huge ask of an audience for this musical in the way that it's done for it to be two hours long. But, like, this, the Mungojerian rumble teaser number in this movie is like, when you hear people laughing about just the kind of insanity and, like, scale of this movie, it's like the one for me, even more so than Rebel Wilson and her cockroaches. Yeah. No, I... Because it's like, the scale is never exactly right.

Like, they say that it is. It fluctuates. It definitely fluctuates. It fluctuates in this number. Yeah. And also, like, you're right to say that it's tuneless. It's not really... I mean, I'm sure they're fantastic dancers, but, like, not even really compelling performances.

They're mostly just jumping from one thing to another thing. You're right? It's not like they ever, like, break out into, like, dance. like dance. Yeah. And as narratively where it's supposed to seemingly like bring Victoria further into like the mischief of cats, but also she's like taking this like momentary sojourn into like she's getting into trouble, right? With the troublemaker cats. That's the, that's the whole thing. And Mastophiles ends up like rescuing her at the end of it. But it's just like it all feels like a giant waste of time. And in a film where each

song is sort of hermetically sealed off from the other ones, there's a real danger of certain musical numbers feeling like a waste of time, and this one more so than almost any of the other ones. Mungo Jerry and Rumpel teaser, there is no photo because you don't deserve a photo. So 15 is Buster for Jones, which it's, again, I think in a better production, I can see why you would cast Corden for this. He does seem to have, he is too much it's too much of a winky energy for cats like you really do have to be a true believer but like he can at least sing he is at least like

I mean Buster Jones is an asshole so he's appropriately cast right that's the thing and but also it's just it's just a weak number it's just too obnoxious it's not fun and it's also like the whole joke of Buster for Jones is just like he's fat. It's just like great. So we've managed to, in this world of like, you know, a feline utopia or whatever, uh, managed to, still, still, still making fat jokes. And great, justice for Buster for Jones. You can eat whatever you want, my darling. Um, number 14, again, continuing with the front loading of the worst numbers. The Rum-Tum Tugger in this, I just don't, like, Derulo can't match the charisma you need for this character. He just can't. I feel bad for him

because, like, he sounds great, but, like, he is kind of miscast for it. Yeah. I guess there's something, I don't want to say, like, iconic, but, like, there's a certain level of, like, the Terrence man-ness of the original casting, or at least the original Broadway casting. Right. That, like, stuck with the production forever. Yes. And, like, his—his rum-tum-tugger is more, like, slut. than this kind of larger-than-life sex character.

Yeah, it's super cheesy in the Terrence Man version of it, but like it works. Like, that's what you sort of, you know, it also felt like low energy comparatively to what you need from that number, and I didn't like it. My number 13 is Jellicle Songs for Jellicle Cats, and if you know me at all, you know how insane it is. I love Jellical Songs for Jellicle Cats so much. It's maybe my favorite song from the stage production. It's, it is so weird and so, like, the way it, like, moves into, like, operatic, like, moments. It's, like, spooky. It's trying to make it spooky, but, like, not scary.

This is something that, like, I feel like I'm still jumping ahead, but, like, this is a perfect number to mention it. And then there's another one I want to mention it for. Tom Hooper's, like, pretentiousness, I keep saying that word, but, like, that's how I feel about it. Yeah. The way that he approaches this even affects the score of it to where it's like this huge, brassy opening number becomes, like, a mood piece. Right. Instead of, like, this rousing, like, get the show started. It's such a halting way to invite the, uh, invite the,

audience into the show it like there is barely melodic if there's no hook to it you got to hook the audience for fuck's sake like they're you got to do it you got to do the work it's shot horribly it's shot horribly you have uh robbie fairchild who like is a talented performer playing a munkusrap like let him go let him do it instead of just this weird like you know whispery yeah yeah it's the two other numbers that i really think are affected by this are actually memory and Mr. Mistopheles. Yeah. But we'll get into that.

Right. So my 9 through 12, this is where I sort of jumbled together, the naming of cats, Grizzabella the Glammer Cat, growl Tiger's last stand, which in the stage production is a whole fucking thing. And I'm really glad they at least cut that part out because it takes for fucking ever.

And whatever. That normally is part of Gus's whole thing. But instead, they just gave it to menacing Ray Winstone on the barge. And, like, it lasts for half a second and whatever. Grinotiga, I'm a provocan or travel on the porch. And then the introduction to Old Deuteronomy, which is, like, fine. Like, it's not much of anything.

Okay. So, top eight, what is your eight? Okay, so I did my ranking based off of the songs themselves, not how they're done in the movie. Oh, okay. All right. Well, let's hear. My number eight is the addressing of the cats, the final number, which does have these beautiful, like, melodies and harmonies. It is absolutely unwell in the movie because that thing we mentioned earlier of how,

instead of having a direct address to the audience, they invent this Victoria character. And then all of a sudden, for this last number, they decide to break it, and, like, Judy Dench is making eye contact with you. in a way that feels so insane. All right. Put a pin in that. We'll get to that in a second. Okay.

I ranked it higher. But as a number, I think it's a great number. Anyway. My number eight is Beautiful Ghosts, which I have a softer spot for than I probably should. It gets stuck in my head. I am still kind of like humming beautiful ghosts a couple days after watching it once again. it's the only moment... I don't know what that song is about.

I know what's supposed to be communicated in the scene, but, like, just on a song level, what is that song about? It's about I got thrown out in a bag, and now I want to hang with you, you cats. But at least we'll have beautiful ghosts. What? It's just, it's her mirror version of memory.

Like, I don't have memories, but, like, the things I remember are nice. Yeah, I don't know. It's the weirdest song. You're right. That's why it's not higher on my list. But I'm just saying, I cannot deny that the song itself burrows into me. And if it had gotten an Oscar nomination for Taylor Swift, I wouldn't have been mad at it, is what I will say.

I mean, we wouldn't have been able to do this episode if that had happened. Francesca Hayward at least gets to sing. Yes. And it's like if they're going to get this character, make this character essentially be the lead of fit she gets to sing. But it's also, this is where Denturonomy is watching her do this, and it's like, oh, I guess she's nice. That's going to be her jellical trait, because later she tells her, you are a jellical cat, and it's because she's nice to Chrysabella. Right. No, the morality, the moral structure of this film is tenuous at best, we'll say. All right, what is your number seven?

I said the Jellicle Ball. There's no lyrics. They just dance. It's great. It's great. It's higher on my list. It's great. We'll get to it.

My number seven is McCavity, which I think for the most part is really good. I actually think Taylor Swift does a really good job. It is a number in the show that is performed by two different cats. I think it's bomb bellierina and someone else. Whatever. Like, I can't remember all the other names of cats. The other one might honestly be Victoria in the show. Who knows?

It's higher on the list for me. I think the thing that puts it lower on the list for me, and I'll wait for you to chime in when it's on your list, I don't like when Idris Elba enters into it and sings his own song as McCavity. I know that's like me sticking to something about the stage show, but like I think this film weakens itself when these become first person songs. The whole thing about McCavity is that he's mysterious and you're singing about him in hushed tones or whatever. and the movie enters like this 15 minute stretch that's like it's finally doing like it's finally like achieving like what like the high what the ceiling of this version of the movie can be where it's like the jellicle ball is great scimble shanks is great and then this is great and it's literally idris elba bringing it back to what the movie is i love edris elba but you are right in that when he shows up it sours the number it does a little bit of It's a little bit like when the jock was in high school shows next to, like, the theater girl who's good at it. Also, sidebar, very briefly, I want to just have a word, a strongly delivered word, with whoever decided that McCavity's magical, like, phrase needed to be ineffable. Why?

Why? Who made that decision and why? Just tell me why. it's probably T.S. Eliot. Take it up with him. No, like, ineffable is a lyric in this, but, like, there wasn't anything originally about, like, A, McCavity having, like, an abracadabra word, and then having it become ineffable, like, I don't understand. All right. Anyway. I mean, I think the lyrics are based off the T.S. Eliot poem. The lyrics are, but this particular element was introduced just for the

movie, I'm pretty sure. The fact that he has, like, magic powder. The thing about Taylor Swift in this movie is it felt like her being announced for it was one of the things people were originally like turning their nose at or laughing at or pointing at it being potential fiasco she's one of the few people who show up in this movie and know exactly the movie that yeah it kind of needs to be yeah all right what is your number six uh my number six is a journey to the heavy side layer oh before the addressing of the cats. I just think it's a really pretty melody. And it's also like 19 key changes. Yeah. That's a good point. I respect key changes. I sort of lumped it in with the old

Deuteronomy naming of cats, growl tiger, all that sort of stuff in the film, because I think it's just very brief and ultimately like three lines. But you're right. The key changes, it's a very good point. It's also kind of one of the, like, peak, you know, like crazy moments in the movie because Grisabella has been given the Jellical Choice and then she becomes an Aeronaut. Yes, she does. She's a really good Aeronaut. I'm a really good Aeronaut in this film. All right, my number six is Mr. Mastopheles. Isabella don't belong in balloons?

Okay, so Mr. Mastophiles is number six in your. your ranking of the movie. Yes. I have thoughts about this. Okay. I love it in the stage production. It's again... As do I.

It's... In the revival that I saw, it's Rumtum Tugger singing, and then the actor who played Mistophiles in the stage production that I saw is Ricky Ubeda, who won season nine

of So You Think He Can Dance. One of the later seasons of So You Think You Can Dance. can dance, but I loved him so much. And it's just like... He basically is just nonstop pirouetting, doing, like, just spins and turns the entire number. Yeah.

It's amazing. The problem with the film version of this is the problem that, like, this movie decides that it needs to, A, make Mastopheles more of a character, more of a protagonist in this, who, like, makes active choices and whatever. And, like, and also decides it needs to make this weird bisexual will love triangle between Victoria and Mastopheles and Munkustraps sort of, where, like, I'm not sure which who Munkusrap wants to fuck among Victoria and Mastaflis, maybe both of them, but he's like clearly jealous, but also Munkusrap's barely a character

at all in this. He just sort of like sometimes glowers and then also sometimes sings exposition, and it's really weird. And, but like, Mastophiles isn't supposed to be a boyfriend. He's supposed to be a, like, a magical. mysterious cat who like sort of magic he's a he's a shaman he's a magic homosexual cat yes yes he's a magic homosexual cat thank you and he should be lusting after skimble shanks but we'll get to it um no like he again he doesn't sing for the number on the stage for the most of it you are right about that but like in making him a protagonist of the song they also make this weird fucking

character choice that he has to be like not a good magician also extremely self-doubting Yeah, he's got to believe in himself. To the, like, melody of the song, it turns like the song that is the quintessential, annoying song from cats. Because on the stage, they do the chorus of this song. Forever. Forever. Times. That said, though, Chris.

That said in the movie, it's so dower and downtrodden because, like, they're using that melody sung only by him where he's doubting himself. And it is terrible. Thank you, Tom Hooper, for making this so serious. And yet, the indelible power of the chorus of Mr. Mastopheles is such that in those rowdy screenings, that's sort of how it began, was people started singing and clapping along to Mr. Mastophiles because they just keep drilling it. They just keep going at it about, oh, well, I never, was there ever a cat so clever as magical Mr. Mastophiles? And they say that a thousand times.

times. And, like, I at least give it credit for that. All right, what is your number five? My number five, I chose old Deuteronomy, which I think is a beautiful melody. It's like this whole, like... It's haunting. It's sort of reverential. It's hushed. I get it. It's just, like, repetitive, like, most of the score is, but it's like... Sure. It builds to something. I guess. I find it more easy to sort of brush it aside, but I get what you're saying, and I appreciate that. My number five is the addressing of cats, which I find... In the movie. In the movie, which, A, I think Judy Dench is really funny in this number, and I don't think it's accidental.

I think she knows exactly how insane this is, that she's now decided to turn to the audience and also be, like, mischievous. and it's so this is to me where like it's not as good it's cats come it's not bad it's not good it's just cats this is a song that reminds you that cats are not dogs it's so ridiculous the thesis of the song it's so ridiculous and that yet i find it so delightful because of that and it. But how would you address a cat? So first your memory I'll jog

and say a cat is not a dog. So once your memory I'll draw and say a cat is not a dog. With cats, some say one rule is true. Just the fact that the whole thing crescendos on a line like a cat is not a dog, and then it keeps, and it stops and you think it's done,

and then she just starts talking again, and it just keeps going. It's like Return of the King, where it's just like, nope, it's another ending. It's just like, we're going to keep another ending. And the thing is, you know it's got to be the last number. Because, like, even if you haven't seen the stage show, you know it's got to be the last number. And yet you're just like, is that the note they're going to leave it on? Is that the last word of this? And finally, it's just like, how are they going to end this?

And then they just, like, randomly cut to the balloon of Grisabella because they have no other choice but to do anything else. But I find it... Like, remember this cat, we flew into the sky. Yeah. I find it so ridiculous as to be utterly. delightful. What is your number four? I chose Jellicle songs for Jellicle Cats.

So you like, well, you're, so you're not ranking specifically from the movie. I'm basing it off of the songs themselves in the stage version. Okay. I think my huge disappointment in what the film did to that song, like, plummeted it down in the rankings, but like, I love this song. I love this song.

It's almost like Tom Hooper doesn't understand how musicals work. Yeah. Also, in the perfect version of the song, The crescendo that is reached when they just start listing Alonis Morissette style, the types of cats, the different types of cats, skeptical cats, and such. Blackfly and Chardonnay cats. I did the song at karaoke one time and nearly passed out from breath control issues, just as trying to, like, get all the cats out of, out before I, I. lost all my oxygen.

Allegorical cats Metaphorical cats Statistical cats statistical cats Political cats Hypocritical cats Clarical cats hysterical cats

Cynical cats rabbinical cats Cicical soccer Jettical cats It was It's one of those things I think sometimes if you are not a good singer Which I am not

Karaoke becomes a choice of Either you're going to do something thing fun. You're going to fail big in a way that, like, I think has some charm or you are going to go for a degree of difficulty points on songs that aren't sometimes not songs.

Me, I'll do, we didn't start the fire and try and do it without looking at the monitor and try and remember it whole. And like, that's my weird little, like, parlor trick. So, like, sometimes karaoke can be a parlor trick, and that's fine. And I think Jellicle Songs for Jellicle

Cats is a really fun karaoke parlor trick. If you can try and pull it off. I love that song. All right, what are we at? My number four is Gus the Theater Cat. I think Ian McKellen does a very good job in this film. He has a, I would say, one of the more boring songs, and he's probably the best performance in the movie. It's another song where in the stage version they're singing about Gus. It's not Gus singing himself. And in this one, it's Gus singing about himself. And this is the only time in the film that I think that transition works, where I think it gives McKellen a lot of room to get the audience in, like bring the audience in to what his character is and what he's going

through. And again, there is no character in this film that goes particularly deep. But for that moment that he's singing, I think it's really effective. I agree. All right. What's your number three? My number three from the score of cats is, memory. I love it. I mean, it's a, you know, it's a theater standard. It's a theater standard. It's bombastic as hell. It's got a, I love a theater classic that has a big over-the-top moment, a defying gravity, a, and I'm telling you I'm not going. Like something where it's just like, oh, wait till you get to this part, honey. And well, and the actress who

plays Grisabella is like on her knees before the big. note and like stands as she hits that note, it's... Go find on YouTube the Tony Awards performance of memory from Katz, where Betty Buckley does exactly what Chris just described. She's on her knees and she stands into the line of Touch Me. It's so easy to leave me. Lady Touch me

It's so easy to leave me All alone with the memory Of my days in the star If you touch me, you'll understand what happiness is... And her voice is, like, it's a siren. It's so impressive coming from this sort of just like very, you know, film frame.

Even on shitty YouTube audio, you feel it in your body. Exactly, exactly. That was another thing when I was reading that vulture oral history of the Broadway production, as somebody described, hearing Betty hit that note in one of the previews for cats and just being, like, levitating off of the floor, and I get it. It's fantastic. My number three is the jellicle ball. You mentioned it before.

I love that it's just like, it's just overture and dancing, and it's, that's where the energy, that's the one moment in this film where I think the energy. energy matches what it needs to be. And for whatever reason, Hooper isn't able to sap it from what it needs to be. And it sells the idea of what the Jellicle Ball is. This was when in my notes watching it this time, I wrote down, is the Jellicle Ball just a house ball for cats? And I think it kind of like is in that moment where it's just like,

where it's just like all the houses come and they just like walk the floor. And it's just like in each one sort of takes their moment. And Deuteronomy gives them tens across the board. and it's, you know, a whole thing. I really like it. I really like it. I like, it might be the one part of the movie that I was more impressed by in the movie than on the stage or like, I think shines maybe more. And maybe it's because the rest of the movie is so bad.

But, um, I think it's the movie's one kind of successful moment. What's your number two? Uh, my number two is Mr. Mistopheles. this is what cats is to me this like never-ending children's melody and children's nursery rhymes sung on a loop to the point where it's like by the 60th time they hit that chorus

they're just fucking screaming it right and like you feel your grip of reality snapping by the time they hit the 103rd version of the chorus and then you yourself are a maniacal, shrieking, singing, demon singing along to the melody of Mr. Mistopheles. There's a trope in musical theater songs that I'm not nearly studied enough in the genre to be able to articulate super well. But it's that thing where, like you said, it's just like it's repetition, it's repetition. And the fervor of the chorus keeps going up and up and up and up.

finally again. And then it's over, and then you get one character who then repeats that couple of lines at a whisper. You know what I mean? To really land the gravity of what it means to say, oh, well, I never was there ever a cat so clever as magical Mr. Mistopheles. And it's profound. And Dench does it in this. Oh, well, I never was. Was there ever a cat so clever as magical Mr. Mustophilus? And we all were saying, oh, whatever was there ever, a cat so never as magical wisdom is

not the least Oh, whatever was there ever And it's so funny to me Like the way it's so funny to me Like the way it's just like It's so cliched but it's so the way that, like, Dench just sort of just, like, walks right into it.

And her, of course, it's Judy Dench, like, Grand Dame of the Stage, just like Shakespearean theater actor extraordinaire, just like conferring her benediction upon this cat. It's so funny. I find it so funny. That was your number... Indeed, funny. Two? That was my number two. All right.

My number two is memory. We just mentioned it. It's bombastic. hell. It's cliched as hell, but I love it. And in the context of the movie, I do think Jennifer Hudson's vocal lives up to the moment. I have problems. Okay. Let's hear it. Because it, the, like, studio recording of her version of the song is amazing. It's not the one that's in the movie. this is when the Le Miz Tom Hooper comes out to play where it's like, let me force this person to just sob through a number.

I get it. And like I think it does a huge disservice to the performer. I think it is shot very poorly. It also doesn't pay attention to the text because Victoria goes and touches her and then she does the touch me. Okay. Maybe she had an aha moment of, oh, this is what I've been wanting all along. Right. I've experienced this and I need more of this.

I need more cats touching me. I love that you gave her an aha moment, just really bringing Oprah into what, like, Oprah could have played old Deuteronomy. Okay, after we get through this ranking, can we talk about Jennifer Hudson and who I think should have played? Yes. Grisabella. All right. Let's get through our number ones. What's your number one?

Because I believe we have the same number one. Okay. What's your number one? Both for the score and in the movie. What? It's Skimble Shanks. My number one is Skimble Shanks. Skimble Shanks.

The Railway Cat. Skimble Shanks, the railway cat. The cat on the railway train. There's a whisper down the line at 1139 when the night's mail is ready to depart. Saying Skimble, where is Skimble? Has he gone to hunt the thimble? He must find him, or the train can't start. All the guards and all the porters

and the station masters' daughters would be searching high and low. Saying Skimble, where is Skimble? For unless he's very nimble, then the night mail just can't go. It's 1142 with the signal overdue The passenger is all frantic to a man. That's when I would appear, and I'd so on top to the rear I'd been busy

in the luggage van Then he gets one Flammell Shanks baby That a great song I don't know if it would be It wouldn't be my number one Devoid of the movie I think in the movie

It absolutely earns The homosexual fervor That it has attracted It's become like Best number in the movie Like gay Twitter's cat's song of choice It's the most energetic number of the movie It's the one where it, like, the part where they're all tap dancing on the rail is the best instance of scaling of this movie.

Again, it probably doesn't match up to the scale of a number like Mungo Jerry and Rumpel teaser or whatever. But at that point, I don't care because they're all tap dancing on a rail. And it sounds cool. And the energy is top-notch and the performance is like nails it. He can, you know, sing it correctly. And the song is just a burst of energy when we desperately. The character design is fun. And it comes right after the jellicle ball, so it's just like dancing, dancing,

and it's sort of like lulls you into whatever, and then it's just like, bam, skibblechinks. Yeah, yeah. Well, and like the world of it where it's like it takes place in a real world and they go on a train and then they get off the train. Yeah. Well, I don't think you see them get on the train or get off the train. They're just magically there. There is there. It feels like the only number.

in the movie that transcends Tom Hooper. Yes. Because, like, it is just silly. It is fun. It is just a bright melody that you are not supposed to think about. The jellicle ball into Skimble Shanks is the portion of the movie that feels like it's Andy Blankenbuehler's movie. And I much prefer Andy Blankin Bueller's movie.

The choreographer who famously... Well, and then it goes into McCavity, which, like, we've said what we've said about Taylor Swift. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Blankin Bueller, who gets a name credit in the trailer for choreography, which is, I've never seen that. And it says from, because they, it's basically because they can put Hamilton on screen in the trailer because he is the choreographer of Hamilton, which, again, smart, like, good on you for finding the hook that you needed for that. We do need to talk about briefly.

We've talked a billion times on this podcast about my experience of watching the Katz trailer for the first time. But, like, I still do love that trailer. I still do feel like that trailer does its able best to sell what could potentially be really fun slash ridiculous about this movie. Right. Anyway. Yeah. So, okay, so talk about who you think should have played Grisabella. Okay, so the thing about Jennifer Hudson, Jennifer Hudson has become, maybe this is just an actress Twitter thing.

But, like, there is a certain... No, I'm going to take that back. It's not just an actress thing. It's a snobby all-aroundness thing towards her Oscar that she fully deserves for Dreamgirls that she's incredible in. But, like, it feels like I tend to maybe read too much into things in terms of how people are cast. Uh-huh. But, like, it felt like her casting this was somewhat meta of, like, love. me again, which is not a fault of hers, but it feels like, again, a cynicism on the part of

Tom Hooper. But, like, I also understand, like, she on film got to do one of the biggest songs in musical theater, so she gets to do that again here. I think, again, that dourness that he has her singing at doesn't do her any favors. I don't know. I mean, I think you could have gone fucking crazy in casting Grisabella, and I have a take on who should have been cast as Grizzabella. I want to hear this. I'm very excited. I think it should have been the screen debut of Celine Dion.

Oh. You know there's, she's done that before. Yes, I want to talk about this. She did this on a singing competition show in the 80s. She performs memory in full cast get up. And the legend goes, She still didn't know English all that well. You can kind of tell.

She learned all the lyrics phonetically. So she's like, it's the craziness of like, it's fucking Celine Dionne in a jellical outfit. But her vocal is amazing. But like, I would, I definitely think Grisabella needs to be someone older than Jennifer Hudson. This trend towards casting Grisabella younger and younger. And I know that, like, Betty Buckley wasn't old. when they cast her in the Broadway production of cats. I get it, even though, like, now I know Betty Buckley's an older actress.

But, like, this trend of casting Grisabella as Nicole Scherzinger, or when I saw it on Broadway the first time, it was Leona Lewis, and that wasn't great. And then I saw Mamie Paris, who actually was really, really good. But, like, you know, younger Jennifer Hudson, it's just, like, the whole point of Grisabella is that she's, like, way past. like she's not elderly. It's just another point that shows like, yes, she is way past her prime and it just shows how much that Tom Hooper really misunderstands, misunderstands character her, the text of what Katz is. I don't know. I also just think I'm way, wait, wait, wait. No, I want to, I want to linger on what you said for a second because I think we need to give it space. It's a brilliant idea. Like, Celine Dion as Grisabella is a genuinely like, now I won't be a. able to stop thinking about that and about what how amazing that would have been what selene dion today would be like as grisabella because the thing about grizzabella i think you had like you mentioned

betty buckley wasn't all that old when she played it but she was already at a certain level of theatrical stature yeah above what the rest of that ensemble was that's not saying anything shady towards that original cast but like trevor nunn when he directed it he kept her separate from the rest of the ensemble for the reason of, like, building up this resentment towards Grisabella. Yep. Yep. Um, in a way that, like,

I feel like, to a certain degree, even as an Oscar winner, like, Jennifer Hudson is a peer of a lot of these people. Or, like, it feels like, with the name assemblage of cast members, she doesn't necessarily, like, stand out because you do already have legends, you have pop stars, but like...

Yeah. And again, this isn't shade, Jennifer Hudson, but it's like you kind of want to be able to like take a pause at who is past as Grisabella? A pause. Because cats have paws. Oh God, shut up.

How fucking do you. Anyway, podcast over. Hope you enjoy CapSode. I'm leaving. No, I'm just imagining the like the gag of it all of Celine Dion first like showing up on screen in this. And also it's just like it's the best kind of stunt casting.

It plays into what we know of. And also, like, Celine, for somebody who has never acted in a film, is also indelible in film history because of Titanic anyway, right? So it's just like, so you're actually, like, it's actually kind of a really cinematic choice in a way, at least that plays into, like, big spectacle, blockbuster stuff. Isabella's barely in it.

And also, Celine Dion lives in the pocket, in the pocket of weird sincerity that, cats also exists in, right? Exactly. Where it's just like, it's very, like, and I know that like, not everybody from Quebec is like this, but it's this very sort of like Quebecois, like woodland creature. I don't know. It's just like she exists outside of the world.

You know what I mean? If you don't accept Celine Dion as a weirdo, you've either never seen her live or you have never watched an interview with her. Right. Everything about Celine Dion's vibe fits perfect. with cats and it would have been oh my god I kind of almost hate that you said that because now I'm just going to be like oh this version

of cats now exists out there in the ether and I'll never have it The version of cats that exists this is just an episode of me shitting on Tom Hooper the whole time the version of cats that exist that might have Celine Tiana's Grisabella that might make

smarter casting choices, smarter whatever choices is directed by a homosexual yeah do you think Rob Marshall would have done a markedly better job with this movie. Not to say that he's the only other choice, but he's the only other, like, it seems like... He's the only person getting

movies greenlit that are musicals with him attached. Right, right, right. I mean, I think... He comes from the theater. I think some of the more, like, decisions that I think Tom Hooper is looking down his nose, whether he realizes that are not.

not at what the text is. I don't think you would have things like that. Yeah. So like it wouldn't be a movie that like pisses me off in that way. Right. But like he hasn't made a good musical since. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was going to say, I think there's a certain part of people's approach to this that they would have always laughed at it. Yes. Regardless. Yes. But like I do think it would have been a more sincere movie and in that way much better. I just, I also think though that like Rob Marshall is on such a losing streak. Do you know what I mean? And it's just like, I keep wanting to have the Rob Marshall who made Chicago come back. And maybe that was just sort of like a, you know, all the stars aligned and whatever. I also thought, though, like Andrew Lloyd Webbers had four major films made

out of his musicals. And the other three that are not cats are all very, like Norman Jewison directed Jesus Christ Superstar. And Alan Parker directed Evita, although, in many ways, Madonna was in charge of Vivida. And Joel Schumacher. Joel Schumacher. Directed Phantom of the Opera. And it's not like those three

are like, you know, David Lynch level creative autores, but like they all have like, they've got pedigrees, right? They've all direct, like in strong filmographies and whatever. And Part of me is, like, I'm kind of surprised that Andrew Lloyd Webber, who is like, A, an incredibly particular, has, you know, incredibly strong opinions about how his stuff should be done.

And also, like, holds a lot of weight in terms of clout and influence and money. Yeah. Never really, like... I mean, he's talked shit about this movie since, like Tom Hooper. He has. But I don't know. I don't know where I was going with that, but I just think it's interesting that, like, he... That he would have signed off on Tom Hooper?

He would have signed off on all of these guys, like, all of these guys who, like, made these movies with their own visions. I don't know of friends with Joel Schumacher, but Joel Schumacher was apparently in the works for a while with that movie because Andrew Lloyd Weber is a big fan of The Lost Boys. And The Lost Boys is reportedly the movie that got him that job. That's cool. Do you remember the Kennedy Center Honors presentation to Andrew Lloyd Weber where he's watching it's Sarah. Brightman and then joined by Betty Buckley doing memory together. Oh, yeah. And he's

going through like eight bagillion emotions like on his face and his face sort of contorting into these weird Play-Doh shapes. It's both like kind of hilarious. And he's also sitting right next to I believe it's Steven Spielberg and Kate Capshaw. Like that's one of the great things of the many great things about the Kennedy Center honors

if you want to go and watch any of them are that's what's happening on stage what's happening with the person who's being honored watching the people on stage and the people who are next to the person being honored who are the other honorees of that night so it's like the year that it was Barbara Cook the one I watch all the time

Merrill is there and the year that a heart did stairway to heaven for Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin's there and like I think it's like David Letterman's right next to them or whatever So, like, it's this, like, you know, weird melange of all these people. And during the Obama years, it was always like those people and then Barack and Michelle Obama.

So it was just this amazing, like, series of reactions. And then they cut to the audience itself, which I always mentioned the heart doing stairway to heaven, when it's just like Naomi Watts and Stephen Colbert and Debbie Allen and YoYo Ma and Bonnie Rae and Bonnie Rae and like all these people are reacting to things. And it's absolutely, it hits all of my buttons where it's just like, like performance, yes, celebrity watching, yes, emotions, yes. Like, it's, it's, watch the Andrew Lloyd-Weber one, though, watching him watch Sarah Brightman and Betty Buckley. It's absolutely amazing. I'll find a link for it, and I'll put it on our Tumblr page.

Cool. All right, what else do we want to not get out of here without talking about? I know that there's like eight bazillion topics, but I think we've covered... We haven't even mentioned Leibiz, and like, we should at least... We should bring it up because, like, that is entirely... why this movie happened, the amount of money that movie made when Tom Hooper directed it for Universal, basically immediately greenlit this movie. It's like the mega version of Bill Condon writes Chicago, and then immediately

some, the producers, or other producers ask him, what other musical would you like to make? And he says, the great unmade musical is Dreamgirls, and then he gets the job for dream girl. Yes. How much money did Le Miz make globally for Universal? I think it's something close to like three quarters of a billion dollars. It was a huge financial success. And like Le Miz is a musical that probably has as much of a global footprint as any musical, as much as Phantom, right?

$441 million globally. Yeah. only $400, so like half a billion. Why did I remember it making more? Yeah, worldwide 441. Yes. That's still a huge profit for them. So they immediately let him do another musical and he chooses cats.

I think that's also the financial success of that movie is part of the reason why Andrew Lloyd Weber said yes, because we know Andrew Lloyd Weber likes money. Yes, who wouldn't? But I think as someone who thinks that the Le Miz movie is, even worse than cats. Oh. Oh, absolutely. I think it's borderline unwatchable. Interesting.

I think all of the decisions that make that a really insufferable screen adaptation of a musical are a lot of the same mistakes that he makes with cats. But, like, cats being what it is, puts it all out on Front Street where you can't really hide behind, you know, melodies that everybody knows, these huge emotions, tragedy, costuming. Why did I think you were a big Anne Hathaway and Le Miz deserved that Oscar person? I don't know who I think I would rather pick over Anne Hathaway. I don't think it's her fault that I don't care for that performance.

Sure. I just mean, like, borderline unwatchable feels like it would take her that. I think the movie's borderline unwatchable. Yeah. No, I mean, listen, I haven't seen it since I first saw it. excitement in getting to see it. I remember, like, I just got really, really whipped up in a fervor to see that movie. And I was one of the people who really got sold by this idea that they were singing live.

And maybe that makes me a rude. Oh, that was such bullshit. That's not true. Like, first of all, it's not true that it was the first musical that ever used live singing. Oh, I mean, patently false. I don't know if that's why that. worked for me, but yes, go on. But also, like, you can tell in the moments where they definitely overdub, including

Anne Hathaway. Yeah. But I just feel like every aesthetic choice made in that movie is to the detriment of the performers. I think he, like, kind of hangs them all out to dry. I think, like we mentioned with memory and Mr. Mistopheles, the kind of, like, creative of choices he's making kind of straining the melody

of the music for like any of its life. The farther away I get from that movie, I remember watching it and I remember being like, oh, I really like this. I'm really impressed by this. The best thing about the movie is Seifred. She's great. Oh, that's really interesting. I still don't know.

I've never wanted to go back and watch it together. That probably says something. And also, the farther away I get from even something like Hathaway doing I Dream to Dream, where it's just like, oh, like, you sacrificed the melody of this movie to give somebody an acting reel. And I, like, I, I, well, at the same time, like, hanging that actor out to dry. And yet, that's why she won her Oscar.

So, like, I, you know, to whatever degree she was hung out to dry, it worked out for her. But, yeah. Yeah, I don't disagree. with you. I think if I watched it again, I probably would like it a good bit less. But for whatever reason... I'm coming in hot this episode. No, I don't, I mean... Leigh Dion should have played Grizzabella. Le Mise is worse than cats. I don't think you're going to get a whole lot of pushback from hating Le Miz. I think that movie is not really regarded super well. I think I generally try not to offer up the idea that like I've been duped by a

movie that I liked. That does feel like a movie now, the longer I think about it. I was just like, oh, I was, you know, caught up in wanting to like it so much. And, and again, maybe I got to watch it again, and I'll be like, no. But I mean, like, Tom Hooper didn't take hits for that. I mean, he may be more hits for the Danish girl. It got a Best Picture nomination. It got, you know, Hathaway got the Oscar.

Like, it was, Lamez was a success. And got Hugh Jackman, his nomination. Right. And I think coming off of, he had already won the Oscar for King's Speech. So it's just like, the fact that Katz had Oscar buzz long ahead of time, even though it was Katz. And even though people knew what Katz was, is because there's just like that long tail. And he hadn't missed yet, even with Danish Girl, a movie that was like far less. acclaimed than even Le Miz was at the moment,

still pulled a nomination for Eddie Redmayne and a win for Alicia Vakander. And so it's like he hadn't missed yet. It's not, I still don't think a best picture nomination for Katz was fully realistic, but having it in the conversation wasn't ridiculous, nor for... It stayed for a while in the conversation. Granted, we didn't see the movie until the very last minute. Right. Because it wasn't done.

Well, it was on the bake-off lifts for visual effects. Yeah. Which I don't know how, because, like, you have to show a reel to people in the branch in order to, like, proceed in that Oscar race. But I... Like, even Beautiful Ghost, I don't think, made the first bake-off round. But whose votes determine the bake-off in VFX? Is it the visual effects artist, or is it a panel? Yes.

Yes. So if it's the visual effects artists who know or maybe have heard through the grapevine of what these VFX professionals had to go through on cats, I can see why people would be like, you know what? Like, tip of the hat to these people for pulling off something, you know what I mean, for doing the job. Right. And like, you have to imagine that some of what they're doing, at least, is pioneering in a way that, like, it's not going to look good now. Right. but it might inhibit a certain type of visual effects artistry in the future that does look good or, like, advances something else that isn't digital fur technology.

Right, right. And maybe it's, you know, like just a circling of the wagons around their own community. And also, and I think... Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, maybe this is why when we talk about sometimes in the craft categories, most sometimes equals best. And sometimes that is just like the general academy audience not knowing how to differentiate between the specifics of tech accomplishments, but also in the nomination phase of it, it's you, the appreciation for the craft becomes an appreciation for the work.

And so that is where sometimes most where it can seem like overdoing it. from the rest of us. Sometimes it's just like, it's the people within that craft being like, that was a lot of work and good on you for doing a lot of work. They're also working with a not as deep a pool, especially in that category of potential nominees. Totally. But also it stayed in the conversation a long time

because a lot of people, me included, thought that Taylor Swift held a really, really strong chance of getting a best song nominee. Although, now that we look at it, she's had a few opportunities to get an Oscar nomination, and it hasn't happened. One voice or one choice, what is it, the James Corden Paul Potts movie? That one, and also she had a Hunger Games song. I think that wasn't eligible. Oh, do you know, one of them was and the other one wasn't.

Right. She had at least one that made the long list, and this one, Beautiful Ghosts, didn't even make the short list. They had called it to 15 songs last year from this new trend of like we're going to like populate the list of best original song possibilities halfway full of like songs from documentaries is documentaries, animated films that are not nominated in the animated film category. Right. It all feels very much like the remainders, whatever. It's like I'm not saying that like good songs can't come from documentaries. But, like, it's all part and parcel of my whole big problem with the best original song category in general, which is we've stopped making popular songs for movies, just as a whole, just as a general economy. We do it so rarely, and it's usually, unless it's a song within a musical film or a musical animated film, it's just going to be something that you've plucked from obscurity.

And sometimes... My good friend, are you trying to suggest that Beautiful Ghosts is a popular song? No, no, no, no, no. But what I'm saying is, no, because Beautiful Ghosts falls into the same line of just like, it's a song from a musical. But, like, we've stopped making Flash Dance, What a Feeling. We've stopped making, let the river run. We've stopped making, you know what I mean? Like, popular songs don't go into movie soundtracks anymore.

Well, and like, honestly, you mentioned The Hunger Game. And I think that's an example of this. I feel like soundtracks have moved so far into they are just marketing. They are just merchandising where it's like you'll sell soundtracks to an album and they'll be hit soundtracks but have no hit songs because it's just like here's just an assemblage of songs that we've put together for fans of The Hunger Games. But even when they did that in the 90s, because like 90s, the 90s, every movie pretty much had a soundtrack. And they would, that was mostly for marketing, too. But, like, the reality bites soundtrack, at least, like, made an effort at having a single. Do you know what I mean?

The, you know, the Empire Records soundtrack made a go at having a lead single. And it's just a different, it's just a different world now. We don't make movies in that way anymore. And it's, so all of a sudden, best original song becomes something where you're just really stretching to find something, which is why I'm less hardline about it now than it used to be, but we've had a couple, like, weak years again where maybe I'm ramping it up again. I think it's a category that could be discontinued.

They never will because it's... It used to be like shallow was not an anomaly. Right, right, exactly. And now shallow and let it go and whatever. Like, you've still got these, like, big monster hits. But you have to fill out that category with, you know, the fact that Motherless Brooklyn had a song on the short list last year, is should like chill you to your bones you know what I mean it just I don't care who it is I don't care

like what like you know talents involved right but just like I like let's let's be serious about this kind of stuff like I don't know well maybe Taylor Swift will be nominated this year finally it'll be for her documentary miss well apparently if it's for a documentary it can't miss because Oscars love fucking songs from documentaries these days so I don't don't know it's it's it's they'll never get rid of that category because it's the only way you can have performances on an oscar telecast is to uh not anymore why the hell did queen open the oscar telecast the year of bohemian rhapsody it's a good point it's it now they're just like you know making all their own dumb rules so yeah so maybe then if they're going to be doing that

then they don't need a best original song category at all and they can you know do stunt ensembles instead or something i don't know Anyway, what else do we want to say about cats before we move into our IMDB game? Because we are well into the time on this. We're going to have a good long episode this week. Oh, does jellicle cat really mean dear little cat? Like, I know, well, you know, at the end when... That doesn't signify jellicles from regular cats anymore at all.

It sure doesn't. But also, I feel like I remember hearing that somewhere that, like, gelical cat is a weird you know like the Brits sure do love their slang and their slang can just like make something come out of basically anything and but the fact when when Dench says this at the end of the addressing of cats and she looks at Victoria and says you are a jellical cat a dear little cat and I'm just like is that what's that supposed to mean but also like it's clearly not like we don't include asshole cats and jellicle cats because there's several of them. Right. That are not nice cats in this. Right. The low-key, bisexual love triangle. We should maybe talk about the alleged butthole cut of the movie. Right. Which goes into the VFX of it all. That feels like less of a thing than just a one-liner. You know what I mean? Like, people talk about like, oh, is there a butthole cut of cats? That's a tongue twister kind of. I don't know if that's much

more than just a joke, though, right? I mean, because the visual effects weren't, were so up to the very last minute, I'm sure there's not, like, a version of the entire movie that has the buttholes in it, but there has to, like, maybe someday in the future, there will

leak a clip or something of when... I know people have made spoof ones of it, but... It's also just because, like, that Daily Beast article you mentioned that talked about the visual effects hell that the team went through

and specifically Tom Hooper's treatment of them and misunderstanding of how their team's work and his unwillingness to learn basically I just, what I would rather have than the leaked butthole cut of this movie. Don't say leaked butthole like that. Like, please, Christopher. God, Jesus Christ.

Good, golly. You'll never become a jellicle cat if you keep talking like that. This movie is a leaked butthole. butthole. Jesus. I want leaked audio from whatever call he was on, whatever meeting he was in with the visual effects team, where he demanded, requested, tried to explain that part of the visual

design of these cats would be their sphincter. I just wrote anus. I just want to know what verbiage, what level of tact he had in a. explaining this as a character. Do you think there was, like, a PowerPoint presentation where it was just photos of real cats who have real buttholes? And he's just like, look, cats have buttholes. My cats must have but holes. He's like, look at it.

Look at it. Yikes. Well, also, and if that was a decision made early on enough, did, like, Judy Dench know that old Denturonomy was going to have their butthole on screen? Okay. This goes into my one thing I wanted to mention. which is to be a fly on the wall on Judy Dench and Ian McKellon meeting up for drinks after hours during the production of cats would be. I just imagine the conversations that they had just amongst the two of them about making this movie. I would pay good money to listen to them on that.

Just the derision and the bafflement. And then Tom told me that there would be a but-house. just while they're like slamming shots of Jack Daniels or something like that I don't know Yeah they're doing Judy Dengen Ian McKellen Doing Jaeger bombs after a long day of filming cats Truly

That's the live action short film I want to see Do I want to talk about in general The like the class of 2019 I know you mentioned that I mean we can mention the other titles that are probably open for well wait we did widows yeah widows uh widows is 2018 oh it's 2018 yeah yeah so god what even was this year it's tough to remember right boy erased 2018 that's 2018 yeah time is such a flat circle like i even thought especially 2019 is hard

is hard to remember because of COVID, honestly, because it feels like it was two months ago, right? Because our lives have been put on pause. I even thought while watching this movie, I was like, you know, what if they had delayed cats before it was released because of visual effects things? And because of COVID,

we had cats hanging over us all this time. Like, we know cats is eventually coming. Holy shit. You've blown my mind for a second time. Could you imagine? No. Like, and honestly, like, I feel like we might have needed that in this world. So, okay, now I'm looking at, at least this movies that played festivals, 2019 stuff.

The aforementioned the aeronauts. Yes, the aeronauts. Lucy in the sky about a very different kind of aeronaut. We saw together. The Goldfinch is definitely going to be one I want to talk about, for sure. That might be a cringy one to talk about because of its lead actor. Fine. Yeah, good point. What else? What else? What else? I'm going through, like, literally, like, what played at TIF last year.

We could talk about, wait, did the Lighthouse get a nomination in anything? Yes, it did. It did. Okay, so we can't talk about it. Cinematography nominee. Right. Yeah, there's definitely some stuff that we can get into the report we could talk about, which actually I think is pretty good. I guess we could do on cut gems, whatever. Waves. Waves would be an interesting one to talk about. Anyway, there's some stuff.

2019, the door is open. Lucy in the sky will definitely happen. We will definitely... Yeah. Release the diaper cut. Jesus Christ. On that note, let's move on to the IMDB game, shall we? All right, so the IMDB game, we end each of our episodes with

the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work or jellicle balls, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release here as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints and naming of the titles, whether or not they are dogs. Right. Cats are not dogs. Write that down. Everybody who's listening, write that down. Remember it. All right. Yeah. So, Chris, would you like to guess first or give first? How about I guess first this week? Okay, cool. So I went into the filmography of Tom Hooper, and one of the things that he

directed, I think the one big TV thing that he directed before the King's speech that people remember is John Adams, the miniseries for HBO. But he also did another miniseries for HBO before that, which was Elizabeth I, starring Helen Mirren, but it also starred a British actor named Hugh Dancy, who we've talked about on this podcast at least once. He was an evening, maybe for other things. But there's one television show and three films on The Known for for Hugh Dancy. Okay, three television shows?

No, one television show, three films. Oh, sorry. The television show is Hannibal. Yes, correct. Okay. You mentioned John Adams. I should be nice to Tom Hooper for a second and say I do really like John Adams. Laura Linney has an Emmy, and we can all be thankful, although she has Emmys for other things also.

Yeah. But yes. Hugh Dancy, Hannibal. Hannibal is a great show. What about that movie, Adam? Yes, it is. 2009's Adam, Hugh Dancy, opposite. Adam showed up for six.

Somebody else. Was he on Rose Burns, maybe? That would have been wild. Maybe. But he's also the lead at that movie. He doesn't really get first billing all that often. He's the one dude in the Jane Austen book club, so I'm going to say that. That's a good guess, but no.

Strike one. Damn it. Okay. What else is he in? That's a movie. Oh, isn't he the romantic lead of? confessions of a shopaholic? I believe you're right, but that is also

not correct. He's definitely in that movie, opposite Ila Fisher. Damn it. So yeah, so that's two strikes. So you will get your years for your remaining two. They are 2004 and 2011. Neither of those are evening. Oh, 2011 is it

Martha Marcy May Marlene? It is. Martha Marcy May Marlene, where he plays I love that movie. I should have guessed that. Elizabeth Olson's brother-in-law. Married to Sarah Paulson in that movie. Yep. Yep. Okay, so 2004, that's not even Savage Grace. Nope.

Where he is the third in a mother-son... Triangle. Not thruple, but triad, whatever. Okay, 2004. Trying to even place him. I wonder what billing he. is it's got to be a small role uh i believe it's his second build in this one yeah it's an odd movie but definitely one you've heard of okay um it's actually got a really

interesting cast oh i've never seen it but i've seen clips of it because there are a couple scenes from it that are like deeply odd i feel like is it british yep okay um Although the main star isn't in real life, British. Oh, is it Ella Enchanted? It is, in fact, Ella Enchanted. Spectacular. Anne Hathaway. Look at the poster for Ella Enchanted.

Because it's Anne Hathaway. The whole thing is like it's what's like a fake fairy tale kind of a thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, Anne Hathaway's in the middle and she's like, there's a storybook and whatever. Everything's around her. But then it's all these, like, there are, like, faces on the perimeter of it. And it's Hugh Dancy's one. Vivica A. Fox is some kind of fairy godmother in this.

Minnie Driver is on the cover. Permanendor Nagra from a bandit like Beckham. And is this, this, there's somebody on the poster who looks like Heidi Klum, but I don't think is Heidi Klum. but I can't pick Who Look at the poster for Ella Enchanted and tell me who the woman Try to Google it.

On the left is. No, it is Heidi Kloom because she's in that movie. That's fucking wild. Go look at the poster. I googled it. I'm looking at it now. That's absolutely Heidi Kloom.

Thank you. Who's in her hand? I can't make... Heidi Kloom is holding a man. It looks like, remember those project runway posters for the new seasons? where she was, like, making paper dolls out of the designers or whatever. That's what it looks like.

It looks like that. It looks like she's got Kristen Suriano or whatever in her little hand. Designers, your challenge was to design an outfit for the upcoming movie Ella Enchanted. I don't know why that wasn't a challenge, actually. Like, that would have... But it would track if that was a challenge. All right. Well, it's a Miramax movie, so yeah, that would have absolutely made it.

Now I kind of want to watch this movie. It's only an hour and a half. Why not? Let's start the show. Okay. All right. Well done. Good job with the Hugh Dancy.

That's a wild kind of known for for Hugh Dancy, I feel like, right? Yeah. Though I maybe would have expected more TV, right? Because he's done more than Hannibal. He's not always the lead. He's not always. Which is why I didn't even guess Martha Marcy May Marlene, though I'm glad it's there. Yeah, it's a good performance by him, I think.

Uh, okay, so fortuitous that we would end on an Anne Hathaway movie, because for you, I have selected another previous Tom Hooper performer and Oscar winner and someone who was offered a role in Cats, have to imagine was offered the role of Grizzabella. Can't imagine what else it would be. I'm obviously talking about Anne Hathaway. Anne Hathaway and Hugh Jackman both turned down offers to be in cats, which I feel like is, uh, says, says something maybe about Tom Hooper, who knows. Okay. Anne Hathaway, star of the upcoming, maybe it will be out by the time this episode airs, pandemic movie where she and her husband played by Chilwood's old edgia for Rob Herod's, but like half in the movie is shot in Zooms.

I have never been more angry of trailer. It's kind of crazy we've never done Anne Hathaway as an IMD. We haven't. All right. Le Maiz has got to be one of them. Les Mises is one of them, yes I may be getting too optimistic, but is Rachel getting married

one of them? Rachel getting married is another one of them. Good for you. Good for you, IMDB. Okay. Now it gets into what... See, I have no problem saying she shouldn't have the Oscar for Les Mizz because I think she should have the Oscar for Rachel. That's where I'm at. Yeah, she should have an Oscar for Rachel getting married. That should be her Oscar.

Okay. Um, all right. So now it's like what flavor of Anne Hathaway does the IMDB audience crave? Is it a smaller role in a bigger movie, like Oceans 8? Or is it something where she's the lead? Like that one, that Rebel Wilson movie that she was in recently,

but that wasn't super popular. Probably not something like Brokeback Mountain. I'm going to guess Oceans 8. Incorrect. Okay. All right. I'm pretty sure Anne Hathaway's has changed over time, too, because I know I've looked her up to do before, and I remember her me thinking that hers was easier than I think this might be. Oh, interesting. Okay. Um, I mean, it's probably not going to be something like Bride Wars. Oh, but the devil wears Prada, probably, right? No. No way.

Okay. Okay, so your years are 2012, and the other movie, it says 2016, but it was actually released in the States in 2017. Huh. So her other 2012 movie that wasn't Le Miz. Indeed. Did she, like, have a Norbit situation that year? Nope. Okay.

Listeners are screaming. Oh, is it something really obvious? Oh, yeah. Huh. Is it like... Incredibly famous movie. Famous. Like, Blockbuster.

Oh. Oh, oh, oh. She's great in this movie, actually. The Dark Night Rises. I always forget that that's that year. Yep. She is fantastic in that movie. I love her in that movie.

In that terrible movie. I don't think it's terrible, but I definitely think she's probably the best thing about it. Absolutely. All right. 2016, but it was released in the States in 2017. Yes. Huh. I like this movie.

I love her in this movie. So it's got to be like a festival thing if it was... Yes, its festival premiere was in 2016. All right. 2016. What was at that festival? That was... If you were thinking...

Thinking that it is Toronto, you are correct. Do you know if I saw it? You weren't at that one. You've definitely seen, I don't know if you saw it at the festival, but you've definitely seen this movie. We've talked about it before. Do I like it? Seemingly a different genre for Anne Hathaway,

but this movie's more of like a character study, so, like, I don't think she's out of place. Okay. Did she get any awards precursor stuff for it? No. Okay. I mean, maybe, like, one of the, like, hipster critic groups might have nominated her. Let me look this up.

Drama. No. Comedy. Yes, I would say a genre dark comedy. Dark. Oh, oh, colossal. It is colossal. That's, first of all, insane that that's one of her known for.

Good, good. I love her in that movie. I think she's really good. She's fantastic. But it's so small. Like, I know so few people who actually saw it. That's crazy. Good for her.

Better that than, like, Alice in Wonderland or something like that. Oh, God. Actually, I think maybe that's what it was, was Alice in Wonderland was on that. It's such a huge movie. And she got, like, she was a big part of that promotional push for that movie, even though she's not in it hardly at all. I don't know why I didn't guess initially Ella Enchanted, I should have, knowing that if it shows up on Hugh Dancy as it might have shown up on hers, but dodged a bullet there. She has more lead roles than Ella Enchanted, though.

No, I know, but I mean, it's just, it's, it's, I should have, should have thought of it. Anyway, yeah, Colossal is a weird movie, but she's really, really good in it. All right, this was a fun episode. This was a long episode, but it was a very fun episode. good on us for that we got our cats in finally Cats a sowed You asked for it, you got it

cats That's the tagline You asked for it I guess Here's it, here it is Here's our cats All right If you want more This Had Oscar Buzz

You can check out the Tumblr At this had oscarbuzz.tumbler.com You should also follow our Twitter account At had underscore Oscar Buzz Christopher where can the listeners Find you in your stuff You can find me on the Jellicle ball of Twitter at Krispy File.

That's F-E-I-L, also on Letterbox, under the same name. Yeah, I am ascending to the heavy side layer soon enough, but for the moment I'm at Twitter at Joe Reed, read-spelled R-E-I-D, and on letterboxed as Joe Reed spelled the exact same way, same way, let's say, the Jellicle way. We'd like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance. remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever else you get podcasts, now including Spotify, a five-star review in particular really helps us out with

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Let the memories Let the memories Yeah You know,