This Had Oscar Buzz - 129 – When A Man Loves A Woman

Episode Date: January 25, 2021

For our third episode on Meg Ryan, we’re going back to 1994 with When A Man Loves a Woman. One year after her megasmash in Sleepless in Seattle, the film stars Ryan as a woman entering recovery for alcoholism and Andy Garcia as her husband struggling to find normalcy. Though the film was a critical and box … Continue reading "129 – When A Man Loves A Woman"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. Once in a great while, a movie comes along that speaks straight from the heart and touches all our lives. Mommy!

ABC hails when a man loves a woman as an unforgettable celebration of the human spirit. I messed up, baby, but I'm fighting my way back. Rolling Stone calls it a gripping love story. My wife is the most amazing woman. She's got 600 different kinds of smiles. Andy Garcia and Meg Ryan deliver Oscar caliber performances. It's 1 o'clock in the morning. People are trying to have sex up here.

Hello and welcome to the This Head Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast asking the more empathic question, how is Skimble? Every week on This Head Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lopty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my younger sister decapitating her dolls and throwing their heads in the toilet as some, like, beauty exercise and strong. dripping, the makeup, whatever. It's Joe Reed. I'm a radical when it comes to beauty standards and the beauty myth, so yes. I'm also apparently May Whitman at her most adorable, which thank you for that. I was going to say, between the two of us, you are definitely the May Whitman, and I am the Tina Majorino. That makes sense, and I appreciate that. I feel like I'm happy to hang out with

a seal. Right. I'm more likely to be the problem daughter of Lauren Graham on a on the long-running dromedy. I'm more likely to have the sobbing scene. Right, right. Whereas, like, I'm more likely to be caught up in an alien invasion of the United States where my dad has to, like, go pilot a fighter jet, I think, is my personality. I feel like I get that from my personality, right? Yeah.

The only, maybe not the only, but, like, the upside for me is I'm more likely to co-star with Whoopi Goldberg. I was going to say, Whoopi Goldberg, who changes traffic lights by... Blowing on. Whistling at them, yes, yes, exactly, yes. Which was the same year. The MDB trivia says that this was the film debut for both Tina Majerino and May Whitman, but it was the same year as Carina Carina.

So truly, Tina Majorino had a blockbuster year this year, and then the next year, it all came crashing down with Waterworlds, which clearly was a career catastrophe. for Tina Majorino specifically. It didn't so much all come crashing down as it all came washing down, like waterfall. Right, it washed. Chena Majorino still has, like, an extensive television career, though. Oh, yeah, she was on, I guess this was now several years ago, but she was on Grey's Anatomy for a few years and then got electrocuted to death in a storm.

Yes, exactly, yes. It was in a season finale, too, where they came back, the season finale cliffhanger was like, does is the chief dead because he went to go check her and he found her in the water and then he got electrocuted and so then the cliffhanger sort of like takes it all away from her and then in the season premiere it's like yeah well she died but like the chief's okay so everything is fine and it was just like oh that's a bummer bummer for her this anatomy is so unwell i love it i love it so much anyway we're not weirdly this movie isn't about Tina majorino and may one's characters even though I think they both give stellar child performances.

Like, legitimately, they're both so good in this. Yeah, they feel like actual children. May Whitman is maybe a little too precocious for a child that's supposed to be four years old, but it doesn't... There's that scene towards the end where... And we're just going to jump around because whatever. Where Andy Garcia has to first go tell Tina Majerino that he's moving to Denver, and then he's got to tell May Whitman.

And May Whitman is younger, so there's... less of a, you know, heart to heart there. But she's making her way across this, like, playground, uh, wooden plank suspended bridge thing that you have when playgrounds used to put children's lives in danger. Um, and she's just like, what is she saying? She's just like, she's just sort of like willing herself forward, sort of like whispering to herself, doing that thing that like kids do sometimes where they just sort of like whispered just like, just like one more step, like that kind of a thing. And it's just so, she's be like offhandedly weird four-year-old child in this movie?

You have to expect her to be, like, chain-smoking and carrying a cat or something. She's going to grow up to be Mae Whitman. Like, yeah, it's fantastic. She's going to grow up to be the duff, and truly, who doesn't want that in their future? Indeed.

Anyway. I think what you were getting at, though, is for the child performance level of it, he next goes to Tina Majorino, which is, like, the sob-inducing scene, or it really wants to be and Indiana Majorino is giving the more natural performance

and Andy Garcia is giving the child performance where it's like, this is what it sounds like when you're crying. I am not actually crying, but I'm giving you cry voice to make you think that I'm crying. I think generally all of the principles

are really good in this movie. I think Andy Garcia gives a good performance, but he does do that thing in emotional scenes where it sounds like he's trying to swallow a spoonful of food as he's talking. Like that kind of thing where it's just sort of just like his voice is just sort of very, gets very kind of husky in that way where it's just like, I'm not going to cry. Like that kind of a thing. And his eyes are bone dry.

Yes. But yeah, I think Tina Majorino really comes through in the scenes where she's sort of called upon to be emotional. she got some kind of nomination for something in Child Star Award or something yeah she's yeah Chicago Film Critics Association

most promising actress for this and Andre and Karina Karina. So Andre was also this year what a great year for Tina Mayorino that is what that movie is about it is the origin story of Andre Gonzalez and and his the early days of his romance with

Tim Gunn. The Maasress, it's about the monstrous. We are really going everywhere. Tina Majorino gives a searing performance as Heidi Klum. Or not as Heidi Kloom. She's Carjanks. Actually, I can see it.

Yeah, I can see, yeah. She really had to stretch with accent work and stuff. That's a lot for a young kid. Yeah. It feels like we're trying to avoid talking about when a man loves a woman, and I don't think this is that bad of a movie that we would need to avoid talking about it?

I was surprised, like, the way the movie, like, kicks off, it's like, oh, this is not going to be very good. This is going to be very maudlin 90s. And I think what the movie is eventually actually about, I think, surprised me in a way that I gave it a little bit more credit than I was expecting to, because it's about a marriage where the wife is an alcoholic and goes through the rehab process and like you normally you would see like the climax of a movie would be either her going to rehab finally or returning home from rehab this movie really like takes you through the whole process yeah where a good chunk maybe half of the movie a third of the back end of the movie is after she comes home oh yeah she goes to rehab at the halfway part of the point of this movie exactly

And, like, surprisingly, the movie becomes less about addiction and more about, I mean, like, I don't want to say toxic masculinity, but, like, Andy Garcia's character. Yeah, it's not not about toxic masculinity, but about how their relationship and his psychology has been about putting himself in the place where he's the fixer. you know, he can always just like, solve a problem. And that's what keeps their relationship together. The potential. And then when they have to actually be real, as she puts it, like, it kind of, that's the thing that falls apart, not the addiction, but like, what their balance is. Right. The potential problem of this movie is that it's going to be too much Andy Garcia's story.

Like, it's, like, it's called When a Man Loves a Woman because there's a Song called When a Man Loves a Woman and we'll get into that. trust. But like, when I say we'll get into that, I mean, I'll mention that Michael Bolton had a hit in 1991 with When I Man Loves a Woman, a cover of When a Man Lives a Woman. And like, that's why I think this title was very well-focused group tested or whatever. But anyway, it's called When a Man Loves a Woman. And it does lead with the man. It does, when she goes to rehab, the movie sort of like leaves her there and focuses on him with the daughters, mostly. She has a couple really good scenes with Latanya Richardson Jackson, who I could watch her and Lauren Tom, who plays Amy, their sort of babysitter, essentially, Babysitter Plus. I could watch entire movies about the both of them.

I think both of those characters are really interesting and really likable, and I like both of those performers so much. Do you know Latanya Richardson Jackson and Samuel L. Jackson have been married for 50 years or have been together together for 50 years, at least? least maybe not married that whole time but like they met in 1970 in college like the joke of course is always that like samuel jackson is so much older than you think he is but like even still they've been together for 50 years that is like phenomenal that's so amazing honest to god like i want to throw them a party just for that um but anyway backtracking backtracking oh so like it's it's the danger of this movie is that it is more about andy garcia's character than it is about hers but the saving grace of it a little bit is that it doesn't let him off the hook the way that you think it might

even if the ending does sort of have him play hero ball a little bit where he shows up and he gives it amazing speech and make it back together her final monologue i think does something to um yes pacify it that pissed me off oh interesting but you're right that it spends most of the movie um that her final monologue is her sort of being like i pushed my husband away and i shouldn't have done that like that exactly yeah um but i i think the movie does as you were saying like focus at times on his whole thing where like he's trying to solve her as a problem and she directly like confronts that and i do think like you know for a movie that is written by two men ronald bass and uh al frankin and directed by a man and again sort of is a little bit more about him than it is

her in the final wash of it um it does a good job of at least interrogating his sort of role as a man but and i mean it comes to a surprise that the movie ends up being about that and that you realize that that was the problem in the relationship um or a major problem in the relationship yeah it comes to a surprise to us in the audience just like you maybe would realize those things about your own relationship in a way that I found, you know, more interesting than I was expecting this movie to be. Yeah. The other thing that you mentioned, because you sort of, you made a passing mention of how

kind of 90s this feels in its conception or sort of, there were times, whenever I sort of look at a movie of this type, I sort of think like, oh, like, there's a TV movie version of this that, like, exists. And it feels very 90s in a lot of ways. part of which is the two stars and we'll definitely delve into the both of them but there were times when this reminded me of Lorenzo's oil in a good way like I really love Lorenzo's oil but Lorenzo's oil was another movie that was sort of just like here is the issue that we're going to be unpacking and the issue in Lorenzo's oil was here is this horrible disease that nobody knows about and then we are

going to follow these people as they sort of fight their way through it and in this the you know ALS is alcoholism and I was just sort of thinking I'm reading through some of the reviews I read the Roger Ebert review and I sort of paged my way through a couple other critical assessments of this and there was a lot of Ebert especially sort of makes mention of the fact that this movie does what other movies about alcoholism hadn't been doing which is doesn't treat her going to rehab as the end point that it goes on after this, that it talks about how hard it is in the aftermath and yada, yada, yada. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting that in 1994, that was novel, because I think the way we've depicted alcoholism in the years since, we've really evolved.

And, like, now this sort of holistic, the sort of roller coaster ride, a parabola arc of an alcoholism story is to me what is the standard of just like, I, I, I, I, I, I, get kind of pre-weary when these stories come about in television shows or less and less in movies because we make less and less fewer and fewer movies like this now. But the sort of thing where it's just like the addiction and then the recovery and then the addiction and then the hit bottom and then the recovery and then the relapse from the recovery or like then the emotional sort of crash from that. And it's like I am now really used to that.

Whereas back in 1994, it was more admirable than a movie was going beyond just the bottoming out and then going to rehab kind of thing. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, the 90sness of this movie is apparent in a lot of ways that I think will be, you know, really interesting to talk about. But this is also a movie that I don't know about what you're, maybe this is one of those things where, like, our age difference shows up. I remember this being like a very well-advertised prominent movie. There were so many parts of this movie that I'm like, oh, I remember that clearly from the TV commercials and the trailers. Like this was kind of everywhere that year.

And I think it was the Meg Ryanness of it was, you know, such a big part of that. She was a huge, she was a huge star at this point. Yes. I mean, like, I don't remember, like, marketing stuff for this movie, but I definitely remember, like, my mother renting this movie on a VHS, and I remember the scene where she passes out and falls through the showers. It's, like, laying naked in glass passed out, and I remember it absolutely terrifying me.

Yeah. I remember the scene where she yells out the window, people are trying to have sex up here, was definitely in the trailer. the part where she says like mommy messed up but I'm fighting my way back that was definitely in the trailer the part where Andy Garcia says

my wife has a hundred different kind of smiles that's definitely like all of that stuff felt like I felt like this was heavily advertised I remember this movie being like not like a huge deal but I think part of my sort of puzzlement that Meg Ryan

didn't end up getting an Oscar nomination for this was because it wasn't this like overlooked little movie. A lot of people heard about this movie. A lot of people saw this movie. And almost everybody who did really thought she was very good in it. And we'll definitely talk about the 1994 Best Actress Race because it is a... So much going on. Real doozy. I definitely have some theories on why I think she could have been overlooked for this. Well, that is what we are here for. Just on a movie level. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is definitely our thing. So we will get into that

once we get on the other side. It's what we're here to do. Yes, exactly. Anyway, let's get into the 60-second plot description. Once again, guys, we're here to talk about when a man loves a woman directed by Louis Mendokee, written by Ron Bass and Cringe Al Franken. Yeah. Starring Meg Ryan, Andy Garcia, Ellen Burst, and Tina Majorino, May Whitman, Latania Richardson Jackson, Lauren, Tom, and Philip Seymour Hoffman. Talk about Break My Fucking Heart the second he showed up on screen. Yeah, he's got two scenes in this movie, and they're both really good. This is a movie that is well cast in its sort of two-scene performances between him and Latanya, for sure.

Well, just for a movie for addiction, like, to see him show as a fellow struggling addict was just like a real... Yeah, that's a very good point. Gut punch. That's a very good point. Anyway, when a man's loves a woman opened Limited late April, 1994, and then opened wide mid-May of 1994. Joe, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description? Sure, I am. All right, if you are ready, I will start the timer now.

All right, Meg Ryan is Alice and Andy Garcia is Michael, and they are very hot and married. It is a good marriage with two little daughters, played by Tina Majorino from Meg Ryan's first marriage, and Mae Whitman, and they both have adorable little faces. Alice is a pretty hardcore alcoholic, though, and it becomes harder and harder to hide it from her family, like she hides half-full bottles of vodka all over her house,

And one day she gets wasted and slaps Tina Majorino and then passes out in the shower and sweet little Tina thinks she died and it is, uh, it's very harrowing. She didn't die. She did hit rock bottom though. So she ends off to rehab and we don't really see her for a bit while we linger on Michael struggling to care for his daughters, even though he has the help of flawless Amy who should get a whole movie to herself. Anyway, after Alice gets out of rehab, she and Michael really struggled to get on the same page. And there's a ton of accumulated guilt and resentment and frustration going on in both ways between them. And there's a huge argument between them and he flips over a coffee table, a very heavy coffee table actually, and they finally become. too much and they separate

and Alice stays miraculously sober but it really does seem like she and Michael are going to divorce until he shows up at her AA meeting to see her get her six months chip and it seems like he finally gets it and there's a big romantic speech and we roll credits optimistic

that we'll get back together and that's time okay first of all the flipped over table pretty sure that's in Andy Garcia's contract that he has flip over tables in movies second of all you say that it seems miraculous

that she stays sober that final speech she says she's been sober for 184 days. The movie really makes you think that more time is passing. And I actually appreciated that she got to have this speech, which, like, you know, for an addict, I'm sure, like, it is a huge achievement. But for, like, when you're watching the movie,

you think that months and months are going by, and it's really been, like, half a year for her, which feels like this huge achievement. Yeah. And also, like, this really rapid amount of time for their marriage to kind of, fall apart and for him to try to get his shit together as like an emotional dim wit. Yeah. I think all of that is very true.

I'm surprised also that that second half of the movie we don't ever see Ellen Burstyn show up again as her mother because like clearly like this character has so many problems with her mother and she talks about it a little bit as like the roots of her addiction lie a little bit in her parents' relationships to each other, in her father's relationship to alcohol and that whole kind of thing. And it really feels like we're building up to kind of a reckoning scene between them, and we don't ever get that at all, which is interesting.

Well, and, like, they talk to the kids, too, about how, like, it makes it seem like the kids really don't want to be around their grandmother for some reason. Right. Tina Majorina at one point is just, like, she says bad things about you, and I don't like that. And you do, yeah, you feel like. And also, it's like, well, that's why. why you would cast Ellen Burstyn. And I know that, like, at this point in Ellen Burstyn's career, this was before she started

sort of back on the upswing of being in everything. This was still a good several years before Requiem for a dream. But, like, she's still an Oscar-winning actress, like, in this point. Like, even if it was sort of like, oh, remember Ellen Burstyn at this point, like, you cast her for a scene and a half. And it's odd that she's not in it more. Yeah, she showed, I don't think she has a single scene indoors. She is only ever on their doorstep when she arrives and when she leaves.

She is basically their Grubhub delivery. That is a very funny scene is when they come back from that vacation after the grandparents have taken care of the girls for that whole weekend. And one of the daughters just takes her grandmother's suitcase and puts it right out on the fucking curb. Yeah, it's very funny. I really just love the daughters in this. I think they're really, really wonderful.

But I think Meg Ryan's really fantastic. in this movie. She's great. She's great. This is our third Meg Ryan. Each time we're like, Meg Ryan is so good and got no credit for this movie. Though, I mean, we'll talk about the credit she did get for this movie. And it's like, and she

has these sort of big emotional high points, as you would imagine taking a role as an alcoholic. She, you know, these scenes of her crying and arguing with Andy and feeling this, you know, tremendous guilt and shame and all of the stuff. But like for me, the stuff that I

found even more impressive than that she's just it's i mean it's you know you say this about actors or actresses who are like movie stars and she's such a movie star you could watch her face all day there are scenes in this movie where she's you can tell that her character is feeling irritated or troubled or angry or whatever and yet she sort of leads with a smile or like a laugh to sort of, like, put that emotion at bay or to mask that emotion, but you see it all sort of on her face. You just can't turn away from her.

And it's just the mark of a true movie star, but just, like, giving this really, really complicated performance that I just think is really, really fantastic. I agree. I think there's a reticence to, specifically from her performance. I mean, I feel like the movie is more, like middle of the road middling and she's elevating it but in the performance there seems to be

a real like concentrated effort to not you know like rub it into the like grimness of this and kind of play it a little bit more um loose like she's figuring out where she is mentally once she returns back whereas like it could have been just miserableism right i think that's what i was expecting, even though I'm pretty sure I had seen this movie before, but it had been so long that I had really kind of forgotten, but I was expecting more miserableism than we got. I feel like the movie kind of, and some of it might be her, like, performance choices, which are smarter, but it does take, it diverts attention away from her, because even in those fight scenes, like Andy Garcia is the one that's yelling, whereas she is a little bit more

level-headed. Yeah. Whereas, like, again, a lesser movie could have had them just screaming at each other. Right. Yeah.

It's, and obviously, this is her playing off of her Sleepless in Seattle rom-com persona, which had, like, this, the year before, Sleepless in Seattle,

I feel like when that is, when that was at its peak, even though she did continue to make romantic comedies for a while after. But I kind of jotted down the sort of the path of her career from when Harry met Sally to, I went up until Proof of Life because I feel like Proof of Life

and sort of everything that surrounded that movie kind of marked an end of a certain phase of her career, right? The end of the America's sweetheart sort of version. She was treated very badly. She was treated very badly in the press, I would agree. So, okay, when Harry met Sally in 1989, follows it up with Joe versus the volcano in 1990, which I've watched semi-recently.

it's such a weirder movie than you would remember it being and she plays multiple characters she plays I think three different characters in that movie and they're all like just like a notch or two off of the Meg Ryan persona that we would come to know

and it's really kind of fascinating and it's not all good but it's a much more interesting movie than you would think of just like oh it's the other Tom Hanks Meg Ryan movie right the door is in 1991 which everybody kind of forgets that she was in that she was the love interest for Val Kilmer's Jim Morrison character in that this is the other thing I sort of figured out as I was going through this Meg Ryan filmography is I think sometimes when we talk about

movies like When a Man Loves a Woman and in the Cut and Courage Under Fire which are the ones that we've talked about on this podcast that we talk about her just sort of like putting the breaks on the rom-com persona and veering off into, I'm going to be a dramatic actress night now. But, like, she had all these, like, dramatic roles kind of peppered in throughout these performances. It's just that, like, they didn't get any notice. Like, the doors got noticed, but nobody really talked about Meg Ryan in the doors, right?

She goes, she makes prelude to a kiss in 1992, which is another, like, weird romance. You know what I mean? It's, like, it's romance, but it's, like, off-kilter and strange. Obviously, Sleepless in Seattle's 1993, but what nobody really ever thinks about is she also made that movie Flesh and Bone in 1993, which is, again, like, dark drama, like her going the other way. And everybody in America was just like, yeah, we're not going to think about that. We're just going to think about Sleepless in Seattle. 1994 is a Man, Man, Loves a Woman, and also IQ, that movie where it was like historical fiction. Walter Mathout as Einstein or something.

Right. But the whole movie is a romance with her and Tim Robbins. French Kiss in 1995, her and Kevin Klein. She's in that costume drama restoration, which again gets like Oscar nominations for set design and whatnot, but like nobody remembers that as like a Meg Ryan counter programming thing. Then Courage Under Fire in 1996, we've talked about it. Addicted to Love in 97, which is like her big forgotten romantic comedy. It's her and Matthew Roderick. Like I would imagine the very tail end of when,

Matthew Broderick would be cast in a role like that. Like two years later is election, and that's much more the modern flavor of Matthew Broderick, where we're going to use his boyishness to increasingly complicated effect, right, whenever we do cast Matthew Broderick in something. I'm thinking also of, like, you can count on me, that kind of a thing. City of Angels and You've Got Mail in 1998, which is a really interesting double bill, which is like very back-to-basics, Nora Ephron, Tom Hanks, Meg Ryan. And then weird romantic drama Vim Vendors remake, Nicholas Cage, Meg Ryan.

And both of them are pitched directly down the center of the American movie-going public at the time. And one of them is remembered very fondly as one of her great romantic comedies. And then one of them is remembered for the Goo Goo Dolls and Alanis Morissette having great songs on the soundtrack. And infuriating audiences at the time because she dies. Yes, on a bike ride. She gets hit by a truck. He becomes a human and then she immediately dies after they have sex.

Right. God, what a strange movie that is. And piss people off. It did. Also, how dare you just breeze past Anastasia? I did. I had, okay, here's why I did. Did that I was running...

Because she doesn't sing in the movie. I was running out of lines on this piece of notebook paper that I wrote this all down on. So I was like, well, Anastasia is a voice role. Yes, she is the voice of Anastasia in Anastasia. She does not sing. And then 2000, it's Proof of Life, as we mentioned. And also Hanging Up, which is Diane Keaton directs from a Nora and Delia Ephron script, if I am not mistaken. Which we should really talk about.

Incredibly critically reviled. Yes, but definitely had Oscar buzz going in because it was, another Nora Ephron thing, the Diane Keaton factor. Is that also... Pushed off of 1999 into 2000. Is that also Walter Mathau? He's their father in that.

And people thought that might be like a late career nomination for him. I actually think so. Let me look this up really fast. I think that's correct. Yes, it is Walter Mathau. Remember there was that run of movies where respected actors would play like

the old dying father in movies? I'm thinking also of like the savages. And people were like, Well, that's definitely an Oscar nomination because, like, we love sort of old dying people in this thing. And then they just, like, never materialized for one reason or another. Right, right, right, right. Poor Philip Bosco. Unless it's the judge.

Right, unless it's the judge. Which at that point, we thought we were kind of past that. And it's just like, oh, no, bitch, we are back in the soup with that. But I don't know. What do you make of that kind of stretch of Meg Ryan's career? I think it's interesting that she did keep trying to, like, do dramas. and for one reason or another, either the American public or the Oscars or both, we're just like, no, we'd prefer not.

I think it's kind of twofold. One is that I think her comedic persona, I don't know if this is just like we collectively decided to see it more narrowly than what her comedic abilities are on screen. But it got very pacified into this, not quite girl next door, but like America's sweetheart type of thing. Whereas, like, actually, her comedic performances that we all love are a lot more complex than that. Right. Even, like, when Harry met Sally, you've got male, like, there's a lot more going on when you rewatch those movies.

Then it's just like, oh, she's just this sweet actress who can sometimes be funny. Right. Um, and, uh, I mean, I think the other thing is that I'm always surprised about Meg Ryan is it's actually a lot less movies, um, yeah, than you maybe remember. And like that, I guess kind of speaks to her impact in the movies that like have stayed with us that there's so few of them. But like she's still such like a talking point as an actress. Um, but I think it kind of like that imbalance of what her work actually is. and how we perceive it is kind of exacerbated by the fact that there's so few movies so that when she goes and does in the cut, which she's incredible in, it's a great movie, is even more jarring for audiences. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think it's also that the movies that we love her best in,

I think because they, I think you're right to say that there's a lot more specificity going on in those when Harry met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, you've got mail. But I think because they coalesced around the same creative talent, Nora Afron and Tom Hanks, and that, I think that really calcified the American public's image of her, and really, they really wanted to, like, hold to it. And it's, in many ways, kind of an older Hollywood thing of just sort of, like, we're just going to, like, we make good movies together,

so we're going to keep making good movies together. And television, by this point, had sort of, like, taken over that. I'm just like, if you liked seeing the same people doing the, you know, similar genres and working together all the time, that's sort of what we have television for now. And I don't know, I think it just made it, like, more and more difficult for her, for the public to allow her to break out of that box. And yet, seeing that, again, when a man loves a woman, was pretty popular.

and pretty well received. And yet, I don't know, you seem to have a theory as to why there was a glass ceiling on how far she could go this award season for this performance. I mean, I think it's more the movie's problem. Like, all of the people that she would have been nominated against all the eventual nominees, with the exception of Tom and Viv, because I haven't seen it. Nor have I. How can we see that?

I don't know. Let's figure it out and watch it together or something somehow. Yeah, I think that's just one of those, like, 90s nominees that are hard to get your hands. hands on yeah um but like it's kind of a weirdly split year Oscar goes its own way the globes kind of go their own way um and sag does as well we should also mention she's sag nominated for this performance in lead actress it's the first year that sag does these awards yes so like i think they're like this is we also talk about this as being a not very good best actress year those don't exist. It's just it's kind of spread all about. And I think Susan Sarandon gets a lot of crap for that nomination for the client. We've talked about this a lot when actually she was probably just, she just wasn't nominated for the globe, really. Right. Like she won BAFTA for that movie. Well, and I think a lot of the sort of eyebrow raising of that Oscar nomination is genre snobbery when like she's so much better than the eventual Oscar winner that year. Like,

I mean, I think I've said this on Mike. I recently caught up to Blue Sky, and I think it's one of the worst Oscar-winning performances I've ever seen. But the Jessica Lang thing, like, A, it's carryover, like, this movie was shelved because it was Orion, and Orion went under, and it finally got released. So, like, there's goodwill towards that, because Oscar was especially friendly to Orion in the early 90s. But it's also this carryover goodwill towards Jessica Lang, who, won an Oscar for Tootsie, but like they wanted to give it to her for Francis, but she's nominated against Merrill Streep for Sophie's choice, which is like a performance that's never going to lose. The brick wall of Oscar nominations where it's just like, honey, you're not getting through that.

You still have actors today saying Jessica Lang and Francis is the greatest performance ever in movies. So, like, that probably contributed to Jessica Lang was never going to lose. But I don't know. As far as not being able to get an Oscar nomination for it, I think it's nothing to do with the performance and more about the movie. I think it becomes more of Andy Garcia's movie. And I think, like, it's the same thing that we talk about with her other performances that are good. It's, she has a, I don't want to say, like, minor key, but she has a very subtle approach and a very nuanced approach to things that I think, in movies people expect, like, I guess, something louder, you know. Do you think a worse performance in this movie is more successful with awards?

Huh? Do you think a worst performance in this movie is more successful with awards? I do think sometimes that's happening. Yeah, absolutely. where she's a lot louder and a lot more sort of... Making more obvious choices. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's definitely possible.

So now that you've opened the door for 1994 Best Actress, and I do want to... We should have that discussion, because we've talked about it a little bit before when we talked about Juliette Lewis in Natural Born Killers, which was this year. The Oscar winner, as you mentioned, is Jessica Lang. Also nominated that year are Susan Sarandon and the client,

Miranda Richardson and Tom and Viv, which neither of us have seen. Jody Foster and Nell, which we've talked about before is if she hadn't already been a two-time Oscar winner, we think there's a good chance she wins for Nell,

even though Nell is also she won the sag. A weird performance in a weird movie, right? Like, it's not in a bad way necessarily, but like, if Jody Foster was an Oscar winner for Nell, we would look back on that

and just be like, what a time to be alive. You know what I mean? It's just, she just invents her own language, She lives in the woods. Tay in a ween. Exactly. And then the fifth nominee that year was Winona Ryder for Little Women,

which is a nomination that I love. It was sort of a year after she didn't win for Age of Innocence. She lost to Anna Pacquin the year before. And I think that kind of opened this sort of narrow window for Winona Ryder Oscar-nominated actress, which I think is kind of fun. And she's wonderful in that little women. But you mentioned Meg was nominated for SAG that year, the first ever SAG Awards.

Also nominated at SAG was Merrill Streep for the River Wild. She was actually Globe and SAG nominated. The very first Globe SAG nominee to not get an Oscar nomination, which I think is an interesting little bit of trivia. You know how much I love the River Wild. And you know how much I love Merrill in the River Wild. That's another one where it's like talk about going against what your screen persona. is, or what, like, we've all sort of accepted your screen persona.

But it's, like, the more, the more discussed one is Merrill doesn't do or can't do, quote-unquote, can't-do comedy, which was the thing at this moment. But, like, Merrill the action star was, like, kind of unheard of and fucking amazing. She's so really, really good. I miss Curtis Hanson so much, director of that movie. Also, Globe nominated that year, though, were Jennifer Jason Lee and Missiners Parker in the Vistris Circle. She had also won a few critics awards, if I'm not mistaken.

taken for that this was yes uh at least the national society she was indy spirit nominated this was definitely in the thick of who does jennifer jason lee have to kill to get an oscar nomination era this was the year before georgia she had previously been buzzed for like miami blues and that kind of thing um and she doesn't end up getting nominated until 2015 for fucking hateful eight which i find my brain leaks out of my head when i start thinking about that i know i know i know i know um Jamie Lee Curtis won the Globe Comedy Award that year for True Lies. And I remember there being like a good little bit of buzz. Maybe not like a ground swam.

There was a lot of confusion that year for category placement for her. And maybe the campaign like Switch Tactics or they didn't promote it all that well. But she won the musical comedy SAG leading actress Globe. Did I just say SAG? But she won the Globe for leading actress musical comedy. SAG nominates her as a supporting performance. She doesn't get an Oscar nomination. And then also

the big sort of eligibility story that year, like totally ahead of its time, was Linda Fiorentino in The Last Seduction. She gets a BAFTA nomination, but in the States, they're like this premiered on, was it HBO or Showtime, one of the two?

It was one of them, but it became a whole eligibility thing, and she kind of became the critics darling at that year. to Fiorentino, the original Small Axe. Yeah, there was a lot of groundswell behind her performance in that movie, and it was ultimately deemed ineligible for film awards in the states. So there's that whole factor. But I wrote out a whole bunch of other sort of would-be contenders that year, because I do think you mentioned, like, there are no weak best actress

years, only sometimes puzzling Oscar lineups. We were pretty firm on our natural born killers episode that our choice would probably be Juliette Lewis. She's fantastic in that movie, totally worthy of a nomination. Certain other things, I think there are stuff that comes from movies that ultimately

kind of flop. I'm thinking Merrill herself in the House of the Spirits, which we should definitely consider doing an episode on at some point. Because, like, what a star-studded a very prestige forward kind of a movie that didn't make it. Michelle Pfeiffer in Wolf that year, which is like genre weird, but it's still a Mike Nichols movie.

But that doesn't hit it all. Julia Roberts, and obviously I Love Trouble is a disaster. But that was another one where I think the director of that has... Charles Shire. Oh, right. It's Charles Shire and Nancy Myers. So, yes.

There's some awards pedigree there. There are some that are from kind of, genres that like were never going to happen it was never going to happen for judy davis and the ref even though she's fucking phenomenal in that movie one of my favorite sort of uh underground christmas movies that aren't warm and fuzzy so they don't get remembered very much as a happy christmas movies but she's she rocks in that kathleen turner and serial mom is that year oh yep talk about a globe snub um heavenly creatures is that year which gets a screenplay nomination but, like, Melanie Linsky and Kate Winslet are too young and too unknown at this point to be, like, actual serious awards contenders.

Yeah, Melanie Linsky is probably my winner that year. They're both. Was that 94? As far as, as movie awards were concerned, I'm pretty sure. Ah, gotcha. Now I might have to go look that up, but I'm pretty sure that that was the case. It could be, like, 94 in Australia, 95 in America. Hold on.

Give me a pause and let me look that up at 1994 Academy Award. No, 1994, original screenplay nominee for Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh. Okay. Also that year was Crooklyn, which I think Alphrey Woodard is A-plus-plus in. Absolutely would have wanted to nominate her that year. And the one that I have written down on my own little, like, rudimentary, 94 ballot that I haven't seen since that year. But I remember being one of those movies that like,

this is a movie for grownups and I'm watching it and I get it, even though I didn't, was Sigourney Weaver in Death and the Maiden, the Roman Polanski movie, Death and the Maiden, that is about a, she's like a South American, she had been in like a South American prison, right? And had been like brutalized and raped or whatever. She'd been tortured and sexually assaulted. by Ben Kingsley, and she finds him later and turns the tables on him and whatever, and it's the sort of like...

It's originally a play. I think Glenn Close originated the role on stage. Maybe I'm wrong. There's a lot about, I would like to revisit it, actually. I'm sure I won't like it as much, but I remember back then again, I'm 14 years old and I'm watching this like rape revenge, the prison camp movie with Sigourney Weaver and Ben Kingsley, and I remember being like, oh, this is so good. And, like, I am so mature for being able to appreciate this. But it's basically three people talking for the whole movie. Right. It's very much a stage to play, but like Sigourney Weaver is the powerhouse in it.

So, like, it's a really interesting year for lead actress performances, even in a landscape that is very much 1990s, not enough good roles for women, you know, during that era. But it's kind of a... Which is why I am, I mean, I guess it's snobbishness, but like at this point, Susan Sarendon hadn't won. It's like this would have been her fourth or fifth nomination. What was Dead Man Walking? She won on her fifth or sixth? It had, so Atlantic City, Thelman Louise, Lorenzo Zoyle,

client is the fourth, Dead Man Walking is the fifth. And then she hasn't been nominated. Why did I think there was another one? Anyway, like I'm surprised, especially because that was a movie that was a hit, I'm surprised that more consensus didn't build around her. And maybe because she didn't get the globe. nomination like that could have like killed some of the momentum for that the genre bias was so heavy

that year i remember ciscoll and ebert made such a huge stink about that nomination and about it being you know uh you know like trash movie kind of popcorn movie throwaway nomination or whatever and i just don't ever remember and again i'm still a young teenager at this point so i don't my memories are probably not super reliable but i just don't ever remember that even being taken very seriously even when it was nominated, which is too bad. But I think it was then became part of the groundswell the next year where it's just like, okay, really, this has got to happen for Susan Sarandon. But yeah, it's just sort of a bummer that the 94, not only that the 94 Oscars went to Jessica Lang and Blue Sky, which I agree with you that is not a good performance in a very

forgettable movie, but that like everything went to Jessica Lang that year. Like it was so, like It was just never a question that she was going to win. In hindsight, it would have made so much sense to just have seen Meg Ryan nominated along this lineup. Like, I love the Winona Ryder performance, and I think that that probably, you know, Oscar comes last. And, like, she didn't show up anywhere except for Oscar. And, like, that's probably in relation to that movie becoming a hit. Actually, I'm a liar when I was talking about the client. because Susan Sarandon won BAFTA for the client.

Yeah. Is that not insane? I thought I'd mentioned that earlier. Oh, sorry. I might have missed you saying that. No, no. I mean, like, that's kind of a weird thing. But the thing about BAFTA in the early 90s, like, it, that's kind of before it, you know,

got wrapped up in the actual Oscar race. Like, it feels like, you know, you would see a lot of things until maybe around the early 2000s where release. states don't line up their categories don't overlap right like even in the same year that susan sarandon wins uh like umma thurman's nominated for a lead in pulp fiction four weddings and a funeral kind of sweeps that year where hugh grant and christin scott thomas both win and it wins film and director but like that to me is much like that makes much more sense to me as like oh yeah baffta's going to go for the more british thing a lot of the times when you see bafta go off consensus

they go towards more britishy things and like susan stranded and the client could not be more American. It's just like, it's so, that's so funny to me that that would be, but again, I think it was part of that whole big Sarandon narrative of the early 90s, where it's just like, when's she going to win? It was very, you know, Leo in the mid-teens, I guess. Yeah, God, they really did. They nominated so many people from four weddings in a funeral. Oh, my God. Yeah, Kristen Scott Thomas wins. John Hannah and Simon Callow are nominated. for supporting actor Charlotte Coleman

is also nominated for supporting actress as I said Hugh Grant wins best actor it's it's a bonanza they nominated

each of the four weddings and the funeral right they created the category of best wedding and then they nominated best event

those four weddings and then I don't know what else would have been a wedding from a movie that year I can't think of anything funny

man I really fuck them Muriel's wedding not for another two years no Muriel's wedding No, Muriel's wedding, I think, was one of those where it was 94 in Australia and then 95 in the States. So they could have fudged it.

They could have fudged it. There's probably not a wedding in Quiz Show, which is too bad because there's everything else. That movie needs something to make it interesting. No, I love Quiz Show. Quiz Show rules. You should watch Quiz Show again and agree with me that it rules. Can we talk for half a second about Lauren Tom, who plays Amy? What were you feeling?

Spectacular. About Lauren Tom as Amy in this movie. I loved her so much. she is there's a certain level that you feel like this movie doesn't get class and like whiteness but then like when you realize oh this movie is actually entirely from the husband's perspective it makes so much more sense you know his like inability to see beyond what his own like subconscious needs are makes a lot of sense yeah so so much of this movie feels incredibly 90s to me. We talked about the sort of subject matter and that kind of thing. I want to get to Andy Garcia in a little bit

because he's incredibly 90s for this movie for me. But Lauren Tom is one of those little like corners of this movie that it's just like, oh, this could only have, like, this casting is so 94 for me. We're like, she's in this movie, but also she's in the Joy Luck Club, which is also 1994,

which is a big deal. She eventually, became like this really prolific voice actress. Like she's got like eight bajillion animation credits for stuff, which is amazing. I also really very vividly remember her from like one episode of the newsroom, the election night episode where she plays this woman from their decision desk who they have to like, there's a whole, it's a screwbally kind of a subplot, but she's very good in it. But the thing that I think she's most known for, which is like the most mid-90s of all, is she was the

very first romantic obstacle for Ross and Rachel on Friends. She was Julie, who at the end of season one, Ross leaves. Rachel finds out that Ross is in love with her too late to stop him from going on a business excursion for several months to China, I believe, and he comes back, and he's got a new girlfriend, and it's Lauren Tom as Julie, and that's like the bulk of early season two is Rachel sort of stewing about this and scheming. But I was thinking about that while I was watching this movie. And I'm like, thank God there was no Twitter back in 1994. Because, like, Lauren Tom would have been just hounded by psycho fans of friends who,

I'm sure she had to put up with it, like, at the coffee shop or whatever. Or, like, those people who are, like, soap opera villains who talk about, like, walking down the street and, like, women hiss at them or whatever, because they hate them so much for being. your characters. And I imagine like Lauren Tom would have gone through a lot of that on social media. Had social media for breaking up Ross and Rachel existed for for keeping Ross and Rachel apart. But she's wonderful in this. She's one of those like she doesn't really exist in the back half of the movie. She's sort of, uh, but like while she's in it, she's kind of really important

to the plot of the movie. And like she's a very satisfying character because she's the only one who really gets to dress him down in the way that, like, we in the audience feel he deserve. Yes, yes. He's not a bastard, but, like, he behaves poorly, especially towards her in this. Her role is ill-defined enough where it's just, like, she's halfway between a babysitter and a maid where, like, she's doing, you know, the cooking and the cleaning, and she's there sometimes when Meg Ryan is home, but sometimes she's just, you know, she's only there to take care of the children. And she's also a college student, she mentions. And you get, you, she's pregnant

at one point, I thought. She mentions having to go to a Lamas class. And yet I don't ever remember them alluding to a pregnancy or like showing her being pregnant. So I'm not quite sure what that mention is exactly. But you get the sense that like, she has a very full life. And there's this one really satisfying moment where he's he's a pilot so of course his job is very important he's a pilot or whatever as if people need to be flying places which we don't ever um uh that's i wanted to know how that since you bring it up since he's a pilot meg ryan is a teacher in this movie how do they have this full like giant house in san francisco yeah even in the 90s yeah we know what pilots make we know what teachers make they live in the real world house for

real world San Francisco, which is just my imagination of all townhouses in San Francisco are all the real world house. Prove me wrong. Mrs. Doubtfire. So he's Meg's in rehab, and he's on the phone with something with his job, and his job keeps trying to downsize him as the other thing. 1994, we're in Newt Gingrich's America, so, you know, people are getting downsized left and right.

and he's very stressed and the girls are being very loud and she's trying to cook dinner and he's just being incredibly mean to her and she didn't go buy paper towels so now they're out of paper towels and um or wait that's the scene where she leaves but there's an I think there's an earlier scene where he's trying to get her stick around longer because right because Meg hasn't come home from work she stuck she went drinking after work and now she's not home and he's got to go someplace and he's like this is very important this is my you know it's for my job it's very important and she just sort of looks at him And she's like, the implication that my life is not important.

And that, like, shuts him up for a second. And you're just like, fuck yeah. Like, other people's lives have value. Just because she doesn't have children or a pilot's job doesn't mean she's not important. I was so, like, cheering her on at that point. She's wonderful. I agree. She's great.

As I mentioned, Latania Richardson Jackson, two scenes in this movie. And it's just like, oh, there may be, you know, two of the best scenes in the whole movie. she's a nurse that seems like i mean i think that the it's interesting that it's a movie that is surprisingly about a husband of an addict realizing what he does to contribute to the situation but like most of the interesting stuff in this movie is like the fringe stuff about the actual addiction the daughters scenes they're all great yeah the scenes of with philip seymour Hoffman are great how she develops this relationship with this guy who is like obviously younger than her in rehab, but like they can communicate and understand each other's language. Right. And Andy Garcia

doesn't understand that whatsoever. What I love about that is they don't cast Philip Seymour Hoffman to be a romantic rival at all. There's no canonical hint of that at all at all. It is a purely platonic friends in recovery thing and yet Andy Garcia's character only interprets their interactions through the lens of I have a rival now I have a rival for her her emotional sort of state at this point and I think that's a really smart thing for the movie to do where it's just like it really you know plays up the fact that just like like are you insane that that's the lens that you're going to interpret like what is clearly this like very very very very necessary, you know,

conversational relationship that she has with this guy. I do think it's a weakness of the movie that it doesn't follow her at rehab more. Because I think it takes away some of her standing when she and Andy Garcia end up arguing in the back half of the movie. Because, like, you want, like, clearly a lot of those arguments are about how she's getting from her, you know,

recovery group and her A&A. and whatever, something that she really needs to be able to deal with this. And he can't understand that and he can't accept that someone is helping her that's not him. And I feel like we need to see more of that. It runs the risk of somebody in the audience

who can only see his points of view. Yes. Not ever having the experience of hers to maybe, you know, get the movie's actual message. Like, it could, it could be really misinterpreted by someone in the audience because we never see a real scene of her. There's a scene, I think, of her at a meeting, but not really with interaction, you know,

where she gets to, where we get to see this, like, connection that she describes. Right. With the exception of her two scenes with Latanya Richards and Jackson, who plays a nurse at this facility, the only time we see her really in her element at the recovery place is when her husband and her daughters come to visit her, like that weekend or whatever, that day, that they come to visit her. So it's still through the lens of him observing her in her element of this. And there's always that sort of like additional lens of, oh, this is alienating to him in a way that he doesn't want it to be.

One of the strengths of the movie. He wants to be the hero. He wants to be the hero, but I think he also genuinely wants to help her. like he wants to contribute to her getting better and I like I think there is something you know relatable about that and I think that is a strength of the movie and that like that seems like a natural perspective for him but I do feel like if the movie had just given us a couple more scenes of her on her own without the filter of him sort of you know observing her I think it's a little bit stronger of a movie. Yeah, no, I completely agree. I want to talk about... I will say...

I'll say... I was going to say, if we're going to talk about Andy Garcia, we should maybe mention he's incredibly hot in this movie. Oh, I mean, Andy Garcia is, like, forever hot. The thing I love about Andy Garcia is just, like... It's, again, this very 90s thing of he's a... He was born in Cuba, this, you know, Cuban-American actor. actor and yet like in this very 90s way like he managed to play all uh actors of swarthy descent

from any kind all sort of like characters of swarthy descent from the 90s where it's just like he was you know he's Italian and the godfather he can be uh Cuban American he can be you know Latino of many straight I was going to say he can be Greek he can be Greek he can be you know he can sweep share off her feet in the modern parlance. Yes. He's never been sexier than when he is in Mamma Mia. Here we go again. Oh, like the modern day

Andy Garcia Renaissance of the last few years has been just truly wonderful to see. But all of his book club scar... Yes, exactly, exactly. But so like, I was going through his filmography too, and I'm just like, if we were to make a short list, like a top five of like, the most 90s male actors, I think Andy Garcia belongs on that list, not because he stopped being

in movies after the 90s, but like just the types of movies he made in the 90s. Okay, so Godfather Part 3 is 1990. That's his only Oscar nomination. He's like the one part of that movie that everybody agreed was good. Like that movie got a lot of blowback for a lot of different reasons. We've talked about Sophia Coppola, getting killed at the end of that movie and how funny it is. He gets the Oscar nomination for that. He doesn't win, but it's just like Andy Garcia on the map. He had been in stuff. He had been in the Untouchables and whatnot.

But that was a big sort of peak for him. He's in Dead Again in 1991, which is not his movie. Like, that is definitely Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson's movie in terms of... I still got to see that movie. It's a good movie. He's in a movie called Hero. in 1992, which I know you and I both remember, but I was looking at it, and I was like, Stephen Frears.

That had to have had a lot more expectation on it that I remember. It's a Stephen Frears movie. Oh, absolutely. Written by David Webb Peoples, who had written Blade Runner and Unforgiven. Right. And like, not a huge role as like a weirdo outsider. There's like social commentary about the media in it. It's Andy Garcia.

I'm pretty sure he plays a whole. homeless character? I think you're right. If I'm remembering that movie for my childhood well enough. Right. It's Gina Davis and Dustin Hoffman who had both won Oscars in 1988 and then Andy Garcia who was nominated in 1990. So I feel like, and it was released

in the fall, I bet you there was like Oscar expectation on that movie and it didn't It inspired Mariah Carey to write his own. Yes. And it's just like for whatever reason didn't happen. He's also in 1992 in a

movie called Jennifer 8. Do you remember this at all? I remember it solely as a poster, which is just like his chin and an actress's chain. It's Uma Thurman's chin because she, it's, it's his face sort of like a little shadowy, but then it's

her, the lower part of her face and it doesn't show her eyes because her character is blind. But it's one of those, it's a thriller where he's a detective and he's trying to find a killer and she's blind and she's a possible victim.

And, like, there were 8 billion of these kinds of movies in the 90s, and they don't make them at all anymore. Like, it's just... Even if they make crime thrillers, they're not made in this way anymore. But there were, like, eight bazillion Jennifer 8s in the 1990s. And I think it's, like, it's emblematic that he's definitely in one of them. When a Man Loves a Woman, 1994. 1995, things to do in Denver when you're dead,

which is a movie title that exists without a movie these days. We're just like, the only thing you remember about things to do in Denver when you're dead is that it's a weird movie title. I genuinely, I think maybe Gabrielle Anwar is another actress in that movie, but like that's the only really thing I remember about that movie. Or maybe that's eight heads in a duffel bag. Also a movie that only exists as a title these days. It's things to do in Denver when you're dead. Even cowgirls get the blues and eight heads in a duffel bag are like those are the movies that only exist as titles. Like those, that's the only legacy of them.

And then, like, 1995, he's in a movie called Steal Big, Steel Little, which feels like a leftover from the 80s. It's he plays identical twins, one who's very successful. It's like City Mouse, Country Mouse. It's like, what if they made big business, but only with two people? Like, only with one set of twins, and it's a guy. And, but it's, again, he's, you know, he's on the poster, and one of him, he's a slick businessman.

And the other one, he's, like, got a, like, little pork pie hat. or whatever. And he's a, I don't know, maybe he works on a farm or in an Italian villa or something. I don't even know. Sounds like a 30 rock joke. But it's an Andrew Davis movie, written and directed by Andrew Davis, like right after the fugitive it must have been, because this was 95. And then in 1996, he's in a Sydney Lumet movie called Night Falls on Manhattan, which to me is a movie that exists solely as a poster. It's like in sepia tone. I think Andy Garcia is like hugging his knees. That's one million percent you just described this exactly right. It's sepiaotone, Andy Garcia, sort of crouching and kind of like holding his limbs together. And there are like marble pillars behind him. And it's Andy Garcia, Richard Dreyfus, Lena Olin.

And it's this, again, this is a crime drama, but it's much more of like the man against the system sort of noir adjacent. a Sydney Lament movie. And again, by 1996, these movies are out of fashion, and 96 is, of course, like, the great Miramax indie revolution. So, like, this movie never really had a chance. But again, this is another one, I bet you, would have had some kind of credible Oscar buzz. I don't think it got released into the States until 1997,

though. I think that's how much it was sort of out of its element. And then he's in Hoodlam, that 1997 movie Hoodlum, that I was very excited to see, which was, he and Lawrence Fishburn and Tim Roth is Dutch Schultz Garcia is Lucky Luciano and Lawrence Fishburn is this

like forgotten black gangster in this film and I... A movie that exists to me in the universe of late 90s, early 2000s posters where it's like, let's just get all of the stars of the movie to stand in a triangle. Yes, that's exactly it. But again, that movie doesn't

amount too much. And then by the time he's in Oceans 11 in 2001, which is only like maybe like four or five years after this point, it's, it's kind of like, it's not necessarily a comeback role, but there's definitely an element of just like, hey, remember Andy Garcia when he shows up in Oceans 11? Because he gets kind of the glamour role of being the villain. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's almost like a kind of thing where they might have cast like Paul Newman, like Paul Newman, in hudsocker proxy right something like that where it's just sort of just like remember this guy he used to be such a thing and again he keeps making movies he keeps showing up in things but like the 2000s it becomes much more uh much spottier kind of a thing outside of the oceans movies and he's not

really in anything that you really make any note of until kind of when he shows up in Ghostbusters as the mayor, the Kristen Wade Ghostbusters? I was going to say, how dare you just overlook the Pink Panther 2? Yeah, sorry about that. He's also in apparently Let's Be Cops, which would rather not. But I think the Ghostbusters thing sort of then starts ushering in. Remember he's in passengers for like half a second? I never saw passengers.

He's in passengers like right at the end. He shows up because Passengers is essentially just the two of them from almost that entire movie. And then at the end, Andy Garcia for no reason. And then he's the president in Geostorm. Did you ever see Geostorm? I should have, but no. I saw Geostorm in 4DX.

That's the only reason I saw Geostorm. It's a friend of mine and I were just like, let's go see this in 4DX. And it was a time. I got so jostled around. It was one of those things where it's just like, it started off being fun because the whole thing is you being squirted in the face with water

from the seat in front of you in 4DX because there's storms everywhere. And then it just became like, Did you ever go on a wooden roller coaster and just feel like bruised and battered by the end of it more than thrilled? Yes, it just beats the shit out of you. And it's just like, that wasn't even like thrilling. It was just like, ow. I just like, I hurt and am sore.

That's what 4DX Geostorm felt like to me. And then, of course, as we mentioned, his landmark 2008, where he's 2018, where he's in book club and Mamma Mia, here we go again. And by the way, the mule, which I've never seen, but apparently he's in. and now he's sort of in this like oh hey like and featuring Andy Garcia kind of a thing which good for him I'm like I think we're all better for it but I think he should just be allowed to be hot and wear ascots in everything now but do you agree with me that like he is very emblematic of the 90s in a way oh yes yes a certain brand of 90s man that doesn't really exist on screen anymore yeah yes And, like, really was like a really solid persona and was just a leading man in an era of really great leading men, actually. Like the 90s, we were not hurting for, that was, you know, strong Tom Cruise era, Hanks, Brad Pitt, Denzel, Harrison Ford. Like, we were rock solid with amazing leading men in the 90s, and he fit right in there in that group. I hate to call performances like brave or anything,

but I do have to like commend him for the performance in this movie too because like he's playing someone who doesn't come off well and a lot of those other like 90s leading men I don't think would have given a performance that is as disinterested in like being likable. Yeah, yes. Yeah, I think that's true. And I think you would see that in a lot of his movies, right?

Where, like, he really, like, toes that line between what the character needs to be and also who the audience wants to latch on to. I think, weirdly, like, he's that way in The Godfather 3, actually. Which, like, The Godfather 3, he's, like, he's not a villain in that movie, but he's, like, he's not the hero. He's definitely, like, a sort of somewhat malignant influence in that movie. but in a really you know kind of interesting way it makes me want to go back and watch some of these 90s movies again i want to see a hero and sort of see what was up with that again and i

want to watch jennifer eight weirdly um and maybe night falls on manhattan who the hell knows but uh yeah interesting little era also the director of this movie's interesting he's directed a lot of movies that i saw that like he was not like uh louis mandoki not a name you remember and not like an auteur in any kind of like real way. But he directed that movie Gabby A True Story in 1987 that got Norma Alejandro a Oscar nomination, which, or no, was that the one? There was one, she got like Critics Awards for one and then an Oscar nomination for another.

And now I want to look this up for a second. 80s Oscars are really interesting to me because they only exist on paper. I don't have any like experiential memory of it. And yet, like, I've, like, internalized so much of this Oscar history. She was nominated for an Oscar for Gabby, a true story. She was Critics Awards. She got Critics Awards for, as I'm scrolling and vamping, the official story where she got a bunch of,

which was a foreign language film nominee, but she got a bunch of critics' awards for that. Anyway, he directed a movie in 1990 called White Palace. I know we've talked a lot about movies that only exist as posters, but this was very much a VHS going to video factory movie for me where I would see. It's a sexy movie. It's Sarandon and James Spader. Isn't there something to do with ice in that movie?

Like they rub ice on each other or something? Maybe. I've never seen it. The poster... I only know it by, like, legend. The poster is... Sarandon and James Spader in like, really, like, passionate, like, he's kissing, like, just above her cleavage and her, she's got this, like, off-the-shoulder red dress. And it's, like, it's, like, sexy sex thriller. The poster is 50% declatage. Yes, essentially, yes. But it's, again, I would sort of walk past that and just be like, oh, forbidden, like, whatever. That was in the, that was in the mental bank with the VHS cover for that movie whore. That I was just like, oh, my God. If you can't say it, just see it.

Yes, exactly. Or, like, Lombata, the Forbidden Dance or whatever. What a wild time, the early 90s? What was the sex VHS covers that I remember, that I was like, ooh, I can't watch this. But this guy also directed Born Yesterday in 1993, which was the remake of the, I'm going to get her name wrong, Judy Holliday movie that she won an Oscar for?

Globe nominee, right? Had to have been. Classic, got to be a Globe nominee. That feels like exactly right. Or maybe it was a Rousey nominee because that's Melanie Griffith Don Johnson and they loved hating them. That's true. Another reason why the Rouseys are the worst because like how can you hate those two when they produced Dakota Johnson? That's very true. It was not a it was not a globe nominee. The Globe nominees from musical comedy in 1993 were like stacked as hell. It was Angela Bassett wins for what love got to do with it. stalker channing for six degrees of separation which comedy is interesting like it's not it's not devoid of laughs but i don't think i don't know if i would go ahead and call six degrees

of separation of comedy um angelica houston adam's family values rad nomination would only have been more rad if joan kewsack had gotten a supporting actress nomination that year diane keaton for manhattan murder mystery and our girl meg ryan for sleepless in seattle that is a solid that is a rock solid lineup right there. That's pretty awesome. Mandoki also directed a message in a bottle in 1999. The

Nicholas Sparks, I'm pretty sure, adaptation with Costner and Kevin Klein. Kevin Costner. Robin Wright. No, Kevin Costner, Robin Wright. And again, that was one of those Hey, Surprise, it's Paul Newman movies, playing Grizzled Dad, I'm pretty sure, is the role that Paul

Newman is that. He directed Angel Eyes in 2001. Of course, all remember the Jennifer Lopez cop thriller that was sort of the what those Jennifer eight movies evolved into for a little bit was movies like Angel Eyes where it was now it's a female cop but it's a psychological thriller a lot of those Ashley Judd movie yeah Ashley Judd movies were like that or murder by numbers with Sandra Bullock was sort of like that and then his last movie of any note that he directed at least in of any note in the States was trapped, which I only remember as Courtney Love, Courtney Love and Stuart Townsend

terrorized. No, Courtney Love and... Yeah, it's Courtney Love and it's Charleston and Kevin Bacon and Kevin Bacon? Yes, and is, isn't it, is it Charlize Theron and Stuart Townsend are the ones who are terrorized, or is it Charlize Theron and Kevin Bacon are the ones who are terrorized? I'm pretty sure Charlize his terrorized. She's definitely terrorized, and definitely Courtney Love is one of the ones doing the terrorizing. I'm just not sure what the the male lineup of that is.

It was the sequel to her terrorizing Madonna at the VMAs. Right. Wait, now I'm going to look this up really quickly because I have a computer

and... Is that the VMAs or was that the movie awards? Madonna and Courtney Love was the VMAs. It was definitely the VMAs. Just tell me

who gets terrorized. Yeah, Charlize and Stuart Townsend are married, and they get terrorized by also married couple, Courtney Love and Kevin Bacon. Dakota Fanning's also in that movie. I should watch this again. I should just watch nothing but like trash movies that we talked about in this podcast today. Would have a great time. Yeah, so, yeah, there's that little angle. We should mention this is an MTV Movie Award nominee. Oh, fuck, yeah. For female performance and most desirable male. As I have mentioned before, I get why we have evolved past the necessity and the appropriateness of most desirable male and most desirable female awards. And yet, what a time for our culture.

What a time for me to grow up within movie culture is when MTV was handing out awards for most desirable male and most desirable female. like truly this most desirable male line up please give it to us it's pretty epic it is okay so Andy Garcia when a man loves a woman hot yes Keanu Reeves in speed hot canonically hot and then the trifecta of loose flowy linen shirts from interview with a vampire nominees Christian Slater Tom Cruise and the winner Brad Pitt the fact that um america's youth looked to interview with a vampire and was just like this is what sexy is to me i love that for america i love that for nineteen ninety four america i'm very happy with it yay um quasi bisexual um flowy as you said flowy blouse floy blouses and uh uh on we like there's just

So much of interview with the vampire is just Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt sort of lazing around and just being like, why can't I like fuck anything? Like it's just like that's the subtext of so much. And then like Antonio Banderas shows up and like I was definitely too young to pick up on the fact that Antonio Banderas is like riding hard for that Brad Pitt dick in that movie. And like and then I watch it. Antonio Banderas is, like, I'm surprised he isn't nominated in this because he is, like, sex incarnate. He will fuck the darkness in that movie. He will, uh, yes. I guarantee you if there was a desirable male category the following year, he would have been nominated because that was Desperato.

I'm pretty sure he was. Like, American audiences did not know who he was in 94, which I think probably the only reason why he wouldn't have been nominated. What if interview of the vampire was just five nominees? that category. What if they were just like also Antonio Banderas and like Stephen Ray or something? I don't know. Whatever. Like just a throw away fifth. Let Gandy Garcia keep that one. Even though Keanu Reeves and Speed is wildly attractive. That was on TV again and anytime Speed is on TV, I will watch it. He's so good in that movie. It's possibly my favorite Keanu. I know everybody has their own preferred weirdo Keanu performance, but like that is mine for

sure. Sandra Bullock and Speed won most desirable female that year. That's a really interesting. And female performance. That's a really... She got two golden popcorn. She should have been Oscar nominated for that movie. I'll stand by that.

I think she's phenomenally good in that. That is one of those star-making performances that I'm just like, yes, correct. We were right to make her a star from that movie. But it's an interesting sort of dichotomy of what we look for and attractive in 1994, for in that like it's pretty pretty lady Brad Pitt in interview with the vampire and like capable tank top uh Sandra Bullock driving a bus in speed I was just like God love it capable tank top and I believe a flannel right like tied around her waist it wasn't a flannel it was a hoodie because that was the plot point is she has the hoodie and she's got it sort of draped on the the rail behind her but

It's got the University of Arizona Wildcats logo on it, which is what Dennis Hopper calls, refers to her as on the phone, that wildcat behind the wheel. And that's how Keanu Reeves figures out that he can see them, that he's got a camera in the bus. I know very much about the plot mechanics of speed. I've watched that movie 1,000 times. Yeah. The other nominees for Desirable Female that are interesting where it's like, that's Cameron Diaz in the mask, which is very much like, breakthrough sex kitten role where it's just like she is there to dance and uh flirt with Jim Carrey and that's another one that like star making performance that I look at that and just like

yeah that makes sense uh Hallie Barry in the Flintstones which was amazing the Hallie Berry uh again sex forward sort of I'm the sexy secretary who's gonna like seduce Fred Flintstone away from poor Elizabeth Perkins as uh as Wilma what a funny what a the casting of the Flintstone is insane. We don't have time to get into it. The other two are The Specialist with Sharon Stone, which is just like, there might... Sharon Stone was in a movie. There might be a plot in the Specialist. That's none of my business, whether that's true or not.

But, like, Sharon Stone was there to be very, very sexual. And the height of that phenomenon, which is disclosure, to me more for disclosure. If you're not looking at this poster right now, I want you to describe it, because I bet you could. it is Michael Douglas looking over his shoulder like what the fuck and it's to me more as a cigarette ad breathing into his face breathing it like whispering into his ear like wouldn't you like a new port like one of those things yes she's like whispering into his mouth like Marlborough cigarette but what she's really whispering is she's whispering into Michael Douglas's eyeball these have always brought me back yes it's white diamonds the movie um what she's really whispering is sexual harassment because like that's disclosure is funny for eight billion reasons but one of them is it's a movie that was like again not unlike when a man loves a woman or lorenzo's oil in this way where it's just like here is the issue that we are going to be discussing today and that issue is sexual harassment

in the workplace it is a very hot button issue but we are going to discuss it unlike when a man loves a woman in Lorenzo's oil, which did so with sober responsibility. This movie is like, we are going to discuss it through the prism of virtual reality, and I don't understand why it decided it needed that. And also,

that's a Barry Levinson movie. Written by Paul Atonacio. His Oscar win is not real. Barry Levinson directed, Paul Atonacio wrote the screenplay from a Michael Crichton novel. I don't understand anything

about what went into disclosure. This is the movie that made me want to do a podcast about the films of Demi Moore that I'm still reserving the right to do if I ever get to live the life of leisure and just only make podcasts for the rest of my life. I could do 12 hours on disclosure. It's so incredibly fascinating. Well, book me for four of those hours. Okay, we'll do.

Anyway, what else? What else about when a man loves a woman as we are rounding into the 90-minute mark of podcast. I have a lot of notes, weirdly. I really thought that it would be one of the movies that we cover that I'm struggling with anything to say about the movie itself, and it really wasn't. So, like, it was in that way

well, I don't think it's a great movie. Right. I think it's watchable and it was a lot more watchable. I don't know if I went into this movie expecting it to be bad, but I was just like, two hours and five minutes of alcoholism just seems like a real slog. It is too long.

But like, but I don't, I was never crawling out of my skin watching this movie and I think a big credit of that is to the acting in this movie which I think is very good. I wrote down, I said briefly Michael Bolton had a hit in 1991 with a cover of Percy Sledge's When a Man Loves a Woman and I do feel like if that hadn't happened this movie would have been called something else because like that's just like it's just there's no reason to call this movie when a man loves a woman except for the name recognition of a familiar song title. We got to remember this. I mean, if you want to unpack some of those lyrics,

I suppose you could say the lyrics are not. Like, it is kind of not meta, but like a take on it, like that the lyrics are not anything about like seeing the woman for who she is. Right, you know. Man as Savior. Yeah, it's a good point. At one point in this movie, I wrote down,

there are moments in this where Meg Ryan looks so much like Kristen Stewart, and I do stand by that. Like, I never noticed it before. but like there is a facial similarity between the two that like they've they were in was christin seward in the land of women okay were they mother and daughter in that movie never saw it neither did i now i'm going to look that one up really quickly i'm really given wikipedia a workout this is Wikipedia is going to be like are you sure you want to look up in the land of women because nobody has ever made that search before in their entire work in Wikipedia it's the Wikipedia saying to you it's yours if you flip it and you search it or something. Oh, my God, yes. Going to hell.

Give me a second. Yes, they play mother and daughter. That is perfect casting. We never gave that movie enough credit for being perfectly cast as Meg Ryan and Kristen Stewart as mother and daughter. Very good.

Should we move on to the IMDB game? Yeah, let me make sure that there's nothing else. Oh, here's one just little, not to be all cinema sins about it, but there's a part in this movie where she's already at rehab. and he finds a bottle of vodka hidden in her sweater drawer or whatever, which, like, she was hiding bottles of vodka all over the place.

And that then leads him to, like, go find all the other bottles of vodka in the apartment and dump them out. But, like, the first things he goes to is, like, their liquor cabinet and takes all the bottles. And it's, like, bitch, you haven't done that yet? Your wife has been in rehab for weeks, and you haven't, like, cleared out your liquor cabinet, you fucking psychopath? I mean, it's less surprising. considering he, like, I would think that he would be like, yeah, well, we can still keep this

in the house, and it'll be fine. She's already gone to rehab. It's solved, and then I will solve everything else. I'll give that. There was a legit, said straight-facedly, save it for group in this movie, which I, like, that has become such a punchline at this point of just, like, save it for group, man. But, like, it was said with complete sincerity in this, which I loved. Oh, one last thing. I looked up, I couldn't find a legit, brailer for this on YouTube which sucks but I found a TV spot and one of the it was a TV spot with like blurbs from critics right and one of them and the the quality of the video wasn't good enough that I was able to pick out what the credit on this blurb was but this was back

when movie reviews could actually say things like an unforgettable celebration of the human spirit like even even the most Pete Hammondy like Peter Peter Traversy celebrations of movies these days. Nick LaSalle. Don't use phrases like an unforgettable celebration of the human spirit. But like they did back then. Like that was the thing that we said about movies back then. And it was glorious.

And I don't know if I would call this movie that. In like 15 years, it's going to be equally as embarrassing when the poll quotes are like, this movie fucking stabbed me. Right, right. This movie fucked my brain. This movie stepped on my neck for two and a half hours. like yeah exactly exactly all right we say our own version of dumb shit now yeah all right that's my piece on when a man loves a woman all right um this piece um explain the i mdb game to our listeners

oh hey why don't i do that why don't i case any of them are new exactly every week uh new people we end our episodes with the i mdb game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that i mdb says they are most known for if any of those titles are television or voiceover work we mentioned that up front after two wrong guesses we get the remaining titles release years as a clue and if that is not enough it just becomes a free for all of hints yeah that's the IMDB game sure is how are we doing this who's uh who's a going who's a guess and what's the i'll make you guess first why don't i do that why don't I make you guess first okay so earlier when we were talking about the uh roundup of

worthy best actress contenders in 1994. I mentioned my odd little experience watching Death and the Maiden, starring one Sigourney Weaver. We've never done Sigourney Weaver for a night as far as I could find on our records. Not even for Myerowicz. No, not even for, hi, I'm Sigourney Weaver in the Marwit stories. So I'm going to challenge you, sir, to do Sigourney Weaver as known for. okay um alien alien 1979's alien correct cool um avatar avada

um ghostbusters um ghostbusters incorrect and surprisingly so i would have guessed ghostbusters um hmm hmm do i think the ice storm is on there she definitely got acting awards for the ice storm which i think in like the the algorithm on i mdb does help but there's also her actual oscar nominations like working girl um and gorillas in the mist it's gorillas in the mist is not going to be on there um so i think it's going to be one of them is going to be working girl one of them is going to be the ice storm, or it's going to be one or the other.

What am I going to guess? I'm going to say Working Girl. Incorrect. Not Working Girl. So that is two strikes. Your remaining years are 1997 and 1999. Neither of those years are the Ice Storm,

because I think the Ice Storm is 96, if I'm correct. It is 1997. Oh, it's the 1997 movie? It's not, but the Ice Storm is 1997. Oh, so it's another movie from 97. It's, wow. Is that the other alien movie that's on there? Is it Resurrection?

Alien Resurrection. I'm as surprised as you are. Wild. Sure. Not aliens. Not Alien cubed, but Alien Resurrection. Yeah. 99, I'm going to guess, is Galaxy Quest because it's shown up for other people.

Correct. It is Galaxy. LexiQuests. Very good. Fascinating. Yeah. Odd. Odd that neither of the two Ghostbusters movies are on this. Odd that it's not working girl. You're totally correct. I would have thought that none of her Oscar nominations are on there. And even something like, I mean, like, cameo movies tend to not show up in this for whatever reason. But like the cabin in the woods, I would feel like would be a big IMDB movie, Wally a big IMDB movie. And didn't go those way. is, yeah, odd. Interesting. Okay, so for you, I tried to go with the SAG nominees of other people who were nominated in the first SAG that didn't get an Oscar nomination. Turns out we've kind of drained that well, actually. So I went with somebody who was nominated at SAG and with Oscar.

I gave you Mr. Gary Senise. Oh, dear. Okay. Lieutenant Dan, ice cream. All, all film. Oh, yes, no television, no voice. No CSI, New York, no original The Stand miniseries. Okay.

Forrest Gump. Yes. All right. Apollo 13. Apollo 13. Okay. Ransom? Jesus, okay, you're getting close to that perfect score.

I'm not going to try to spook you, but yes, Ransom. Well, now I've reached kind of the, maybe the end of my rope for easy Gary Sinease choices. Ransom, which if Twitter existed in the mid-90s, we would have absolutely memed and made fun of the Give Me Back My Son shouting clip. Oh, like, we kind of did even without Twitter back then. Like, we did our very best to make Give Me Back My Son a thing even before we knew how to do it. That is a movie cut.

If I'm really going to do a trashy movie weekend, which I don't have time for this weekend, but at some point I should. Ransom is definitely super fun junk. Like, Mel Gibson shows up on a local news broadcast with a pile of money in front of him, or at least that's how I remember it in my memory. How I remember it in my memory. Yeah, very good word choice, Joe. But Lily Taylor, like the good kidnapper in that movie. Right.

Gary Sinise is the cop, the kidnapper who is also masquerading as a cop. And Lily Taylor is his, one of his accomplices, the sort of main accomplice. And she has a conscience. She bonds with the kid every once in a while. And I'm pretty sure she ends up getting killed in a shootout or something at some point. For, you know, the kind-hearted kidnappers. is always the first one to go. Anyway, yes. Ransom. Wow. Leah F. Schreiber and Donnie Wahlberg played kidnapper brothers in this movie.

Wow. They're like the kidnappers that are meant to get shot early on. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Donnie Walbro-Lindo. I forgot. Delroy Lindo is like the... He's the Fed. He's the guy who's like, this is what you got to do. This is what you, how you got to behave. You got to keep a level ahead. Like, he's that guy. René Russo is also amazing in that that was like that was during the like the peak rene rousseau era where it was like in the line of fire uh thomas crown affair ransom uh god she was killing it mid 90s okay back to gary movie left you have zero wrong guesses joe i'll be very happy if you get a perfect score we haven't gotten a perfect score in a long time i know i know i want to make this happen okay so

i think because he not only starred in this but directed it i'm going to guess of mice and men. You did it, buddy. Yeah! Yeah! Oh, excellent. On Gary Seneas, of all people. Very happy about that.

Thank you. How exciting. What a thrill. What a thrill. I think that's our episode. If you want more of this head Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz. Tumblr.com.

You should also check out our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you. Sure, you can find me on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. You can also find me on letterboxed as Joe Reed, read spelled the exact same way. And I am also on Twitter at Chrissy File, that's F-E-I-L, also on letterboxed under the same name. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his

fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievious for their tech and the Google Guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcast now, including Spotify. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So please, if we're bad, tell us you can't see it. Turn your back on the world for the good thing you found.

That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye. Ruby! Fernando? God, 959! Can you hear the drums, Fernando? I remember long ago another story night like this.

In the firelight, Fernando, you were humming to yourself and softly strumming your guitar. I could hear the distant drums and sounds of bugle calls were coming from a far. from a far They were closer now for Lando