This Had Oscar Buzz - 131 – Tea with Mussolini

Episode Date: February 8, 2021

No matter how hard we tried, we couldn’t keep pushing this movie aside – and Tea with Mussolini breaks through for this episode for you! The film is one of Cher’s few post-Oscar films and stars the icon opposite acting legends Maggie Smith, Judi Dench, Joan Plowright, and Lily Tomlin – all cast as ex-pat women raising … Continue reading "131 – Tea with Mussolini"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. Don't I remember that particularly ostentatious vehicle? The American collectors are back in Italy.

In a place of beauty. Where's my damn Picasso? Buy it back. Offer them more money. In a time of uncertainty. Why shouldn't Mussolini have an empire? All the best people in Europe have empires. They were the most arrogant.

Drink up because the champagne's on me. I'd bathe in the stuff to celebrate her departure. Why, Hester, I didn't see you there. The most obstinate and colorful women in Italy. Why should we change? our lives simply because some idiots want to make more. They were known in Florence as the Scorpione. Scorpione.

Why? Because they bite. Not me, they try, but no more. Luca? Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast sustaining themselves on a diet of coffee, hot dogs, muffins, and Patty Clarkson's bucket hats. Every week on this head Oscar buzz, we'll be talking about a different

movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with the something inside me saying, I really don't think I'm strong enough. Joe Reed. That makes me sound like I am your inner saboteur, and I don't like that dynamic that we've set up. I want to just say bonjourno to you, because we are once again in sunny Italy for this

episode. What is the opposite of the Bella Bambina? A, Bella Bambina thing, because they don't This is a movie led by women, but they are all, like, circling a young man. What's the Italian for old? Whatever Vieja is in Italian, Vieha Bambina. Just because they are women of a certain age doesn't make them not Bella Bambina. No, I'm not saying that at all, but it is sort of like the old lady gang to crib a term from the Real Housewives of Atlanta. It's, I read through some of the reviews for this movie for Tea with Mussolini before we started, and it was a real spectrum of, not necessarily appreciation, but just like how sort of snide the critics were about that, where like the Times review, the New York Times review ultimately was like, it's fun, but like was sort of like snarky about the women cast in it. And the LA Times...

Well, I can probably name you the three critics that were reviewing this movie in 1999 that were women. Oh, well, except that like... So the LA Times, which was Kevin Thomas, really liked it seemingly. And then Lisa Schwartzbaum for Entertainment Weekly was so fucking mean about this movie and was just like absolutely ripped to shreds individually each of the major stars and was just like... Wow. Like, Maggie Smith is a huge ham, and Judy Densh is totally unsubtle. I love the shit out of a Lisa Schwartzbaum pan, though.

I usually do when it deserves it, but, like, I don't think this movie quite deserved it. Sounds like it was a little mean to this movie. It was, like, super mean to this movie, and then it was just like, and share can't act, and yada, yada, and the whole thing. And I was just like. That's insane. And, but it reminded me that, like, until Gosford Park came along, I do think, like, there was this reflex kind of. um snideness about the maggie smith joan plowright sort of genre of actress where like even when judy dench because by this point judy dench has been nominated for two Oscars and is one one of them and but like

judy dentch was still sort of shorthand for old british lady costume drama you know there's this odd little strain of like she took our jobs kind of a thing it was just like coming over and like English actresses coming and stealing Oscars or whatever. And it's just like, I still feel like Gossford Park might have been like a turnaround for that, where all of a sudden people liked that one so much, that now people like the Maggie Smith vibe again. Whereas, like, this one, it was really kind of sneered at. Like, Ebert didn't like this movie anyway, either, but he wasn't mean about it in the way that, like, Lisa Schwartzbaum was.

And, oof, it was tough. Go read that at some point, if you want to, because, uh, Well, at first I thought I wanted to because I love a Schwartzbaumpan, but not if she's going to be mean to these wonderful actresses that we love. She at one point mentions the fact that originally Vanessa Redgrave and Angela Lansbury were supposed to be in this movie, and then they were replaced after they both couldn't do it with Maggie Smith and Judy Dench. And Lisa Schwartzbaum, and the parenthetical just goes, apparently Eddie Isard and Dave. Edna weren't available. And I was just like, bitch, that is so mean. But anyway, I, the LA Times article was the one that basically took the sentiment of just

like, how many movies are you going to get that has Cher, Maggie Smith, Joan Plow, right, Judy Dench, and Lily Tomlin in it together. And that's basically my feeling about two with Mussolini. I think it's ultimately less than the sum of its parts. But like, what great parts? Like, what wonderful, like, elements to have in this movie? and you don't get that every day. Yeah, I think this is a really scattered movie,

but I was very pleased the whole time. Yeah, I was happy. I'm happy it exists. I don't think it ultimately works all that well, and we'll definitely get into why I think that. But, like, this is a movie where Cher sings, smoke gets in your eyes, and Joan Plow, or not Joan Plow, right,

but, like, Judy Dench runs in front of a bunch of fascist Italian soldiers and, like, wraps herself up in TNT, wire so that they won't blow up a museum. Like, come on. Like, I love that shit. You want to watch that movie. Lily Tomlin wears all the pants. Lily Tomlin's character is essentially trousers.

They might as well just call her trousers. Because, like, that is her, she's just like, she's a lesbian and she wears pants. Lady trousers. And she's very tanned because she's an archaeologist, so she works in the, you know, in the sunbaked deserts and such. But, yeah, she is lady pants. The thing that I found offensive about this movie, they didn't cast Eileen Atkins. The only dame from Tea with the Dames.

The only dame from Tea with the Dames that is not there. Granted, Tea with the Dames came out almost 20 years after this movie did. It should have had the foresight. It should have had the foresight to do that. Also, if you had just cast Eileen Atkins as Mussolini, it would have been absolutely perfect because that would have essentially been tea with a dame. Yes. Easy peasy.

Like, come on. Yeah. Retroactive tea with a dame's prequel. Right, exactly. Who needs Mussolini when you have Eileen Atkins? I know I would step to it in line a lot more readily for Eileen Atkins than I would for fucking Mussolini. So there's that. My opinion is that Mussolini was bad, is what I'm telling you.

And Eileen Atkins is cool. noted dictators active in the World War II axis all pretty bad yeah pretty bad is what I'm going to say not great people

not good not good which made me really confused at what this movie was before watching it the whole time I'm so glad that we're finally doing this movie because it's this weird artifact fact, there's not that many share movies. It was one that I had never seen, and it's, like, kind of fallen off the face of the earth.

It's hard to come by, so we have to shout out... Just the title T with Mussolini. Yes. Oh, yes, we have to shout out... Our wonderful, wonderful dear friend Jordan Valu, who, like, took it upon himself to acquire a copy of this film and sent it to us because he was that dedicated to us being able to see this movie. And obviously, Jordan, we love you, and we thank you. We love you. This one's for you, buddy.

Yes, exactly, exactly. To the title, though. It's what, it is a movie that, like, is a funny title. It's a very... Well, I was like, I knew that it was like some lighthearted, look at all of these actresses. Right. Kind of movie for, like, shall we say,

the best exotic Marrigold Hotel audience. Enchanted April, kind of a vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much that. But I was like, wait, am I supposed to be charmed that she's apparently having tea with a world dictator? Is that a good thing? Is this going to be one of those movies that's like, look at all these charming people who in real life were bad. But it's not that.

No, the movie sort of takes head on. The title is a little, not quite, yeah, cheeky, sort of rueful, sort of just like, it's kind of rolling its eyes. at the Maggie Smith character for having tea with Mussolini. I will say, watching this movie, I hate that I always have to do this, but watching this movie in the times that we are living in, it was a really rough time to watch a movie about the creeping fascism of a, you know,

once proud country kind of a thing. And part of me did feel like, sometimes I just want to watch a bunch of fancy ladies having tea. and this is not the movie that we are ultimately getting. Ultimately, this movie keeps making me think about the ways in which we keep sort of like saying that fascism isn't coming and then fascism is all of a sudden here. And I'm just like, well, damn it, I don't want to have to think about that now. Because I think about that now fucking enough, let me tell you. So there was that.

But then Cher would walk into a room and it's, you know, it's still Cher. Like, fascism or no, it is still We still have share. Yes, exactly. At the end of the world, when the MAGA people burn this country to the ground, we'll still have share somehow. So there's that. Well, she is our primary line of defense.

She will bring down all the MAGAs. It's, well, we'll get into... Even if she has to work at a post office to do it. We'll get into Share for sure. But it was, I had... Oh, I got some. things to say. I had forgotten, for some reason, my mind put this movie earlier into the 90s than it was. It is a 1999 movie. And it's definitely after whatever plastic surgery procedures took her from the mermaids era to

the, um, believe era, even though I know that's movies and music, uh, whatever, you know what I mean. There's a lot colliding for share at this moment. She absolutely has. had her teeth capped in between those two eras and it definitely

I always say that like with like and again I don't want to linger on you know plastic surgery

procedures for actresses let her do whatever she wants yes but getting one's teeth capped

changes the shape of one's face a lot more significantly I think than a lot of these other

sort of like plastic surgery procedures that people talk about where you know lip fillers and facelifts. That sounds great.

I want that. And I cannot deny that, like, historical snagletooth share was, like, I have a great affection for that. Like, I have a great affection for Shares, you know, movie Star Face in that way. Absolutely. And so I definitely noticed that sort of right off the bat. It's just like, oh, right, this is, like, post-capped teeth share. But, like, she still fucking got it. Like, that was the other thing, is reading, perusing those reviews.

And there was definitely, I, you forget the fact that, like, before Believe came along, people really had, like, Scher's reputation had really, was really in an ebb at this point, where, like, Moonstruck was a long time ago. Even, like, the, if I could turn back time, mermaids, sort of early 90s era was a long time ago. and now for much of the 90s she went from like infomercial share to then like almost entirely off of the map share like she wasn't doing anything sunny bono had died before this i'm pretty sure now i want to look that up yes it kind of it's the first thing that kind of really brings share back is if uh these walls could talk and then sonny bono dies shortly after that right Bonnie Bono died in 1998, January of 1998. So, yeah, I think that was the first time in a while that people, because, like, you're right about it, if these walls could talk, was definitely like a thing. Who are the other major actresses?

It was Demi Moore. The other lead actresses? Yes. It was Sissy Spacec and Demi Moore on the poster. Right. And it shares portion that she was a supporting star in, because it's three different. chapters. She also directed it, too. Yes. It's, it's, uh, HBO produced as, it's essentially an anthology movie about three

stories with, uh, women living in the same house. That was the conceit was just like different eras. These stories all sort of like take place in the same house or around the same house. Um, but it's all about, um, abortion was each story was about abortion. And if these walls could talk to, each story was about, uh, lesbians. Um, but in, If these walls could talk, I don't really, I think the Sissy's Basic one is the earliest of the three, like time-wise, because they're in three different time periods. The Demi Moore one I remember watching and, like, being horrified by, because she has a sort of back-alley abortion and it, like, goes terribly, terribly long, and it's very traumatizing to watch. And then the share portion is the most recent one, and she plays a doctor who is providing abortions. It got, like, the biggest ratings HBO had ever had.

Oh, I didn't realize that. For an original movie, yes. Wow. Yeah, I definitely remember it having a lot of media attention at the time, for sure. So, yeah, so then that happened, and then the Sunny Bono funeral where she gives the eulogy for Sunny Bono. And that was a lot, there was a lot of, obviously nostalgia around that, Sunny and Cher nostalgia, and just like sort of general kind of share nostalgia. and that then I think was the most that anybody had really thought about Sharon quite a while and then 1999 comes along and

well 98 because that's when believe drops oh believe is 98 for some reason I always I always associate that with 1999 in the end of the uh well it all kind of creates a blur because 98 98 believe uh drops global sensation shares everywhere again

you have the behind the music of share the next Super Bowl beginning of 90s the share behind the music the share behind the music is such a good one it's so good it's so good behind the music yes and like she gives a great

interview yes she always has like that's the thing it's just like she's a fantastic interview no matter what there are like iconic interviews with David Letterman she's given and the Jane Polly one that I watched a bit of just the other day where she gives the

my mom always said you should marry a rich man and I said mom I am a rich man which is like one of the great like share quotes of all time the interview that she gave explaining her tweets while she still has an iPad in her hand and she explains what the what's going on with my career tweet was all about which was essentially nothing she just does

she's one of those people on Twitter with no filter it just like comes out naturally yes okay so there's The behind the music, the next Super Bowl, she does the Star Spangled Banner, which I had never seen before preparing for this episode, and it's really great. And then it's Tea with Mussolini while she goes on the tour to support the Believe tour, basically, which is the tour before the Ceaseless Farewell Tour. Right, right. the eternal ship of lies that is the Share Farewell Tour that she's never going away and we don't want her to, so that's fine. Yeah, Believe Era Share is when people really start buying into, with good reason, this notion that, like, share is eternal.

That, like, Cher will maybe go away for a while, but she's always going to come back. She was there in the, you know, 60s and 70s, and she won an Oscar in the 80s, and now, it's the end of the 90s and it's the end of the millennium and guess what bitches like Cher is still here and she's topping the charts yeah exactly like the the reach of believe it's sometimes like you know I always say you know we have to tell the children and like the children know about share but like I don't you really did have to be there to experience just how widespread belief was like it was fucking everywhere and It invented

Um, uh, essentially like vocoder auto tune like stuff. Um, it yeah, fully invented auto tune for the masses. And at the time, that was very controversial. At the time,

everybody was just like, oh, she can't sing. So she's singing into a computer like, yeah, yeah, and now of course we have like an entire like generation of auto tunes,

uh, pop stars and whatnot. And it was just a fucking bob is the other thing. Like that it's just like, It's just like, it's such an undeniable. Belief's still a smash. Ugh, it's so good. Fantastic karaoke song, too.

Like, everybody, you will never get to sing that song solo because everybody will sing it along with you, and that's the best kind of karaoke song. We'll definitely get into some more share. I think, because you mentioned that the reviews were unfair or mean to her. I think because, like, even with Believe being a huge smash, there was also kind of this meanness behind it. Like, yeah, I love this song, but ugh, share. Like, I wonder if

it had, if this movie had come out, like, even a year or six months later, if some of the goodwill could have caught on more and the reviews wouldn't have been as mean. Yeah. The reviews weren't all mean to her... Like, the reviews were definitely meaner to Maggie Smith, for sure. Like, even, like, Ebert's review,

which was negative, it was like a two-star review or whatever. But he even still was just like, we forget sometimes what a great actress she is. And, like, that was the point where Cher was in this, when your acting career especially, where, like, people had absolutely either forgotten Moonstruck

or sort of rode it off as a fluke. That's the other thing about Shares' career is all her success is eventually people will retroactively say that they're fluky. You know, the 60s stuff was, it was Sunny's influence, and, you know, the Sunny and Cher show was its own weird thing. And, like,

by this point in 1999, people either had like forgotten about Moonstruck, because Moonstruck really has had, like, a revitalization in the last, I would say, five or so years. It's been one of the few joys of COVID that, like, everybody has gotten on the same page that Moonstruck is a masterpiece and makes everyone happy when you put it in time. And she absolutely deserved the Oscar. There was definitely a time where people were just like, Share won an Oscar, like, what were they thinking kind of a thing? And over Meryl Streep and Holly Hunter.

She's amazing. I've said before, if we gave that instead to Holly Hunter, the upside is maybe Share doesn't have an Oscar, but Cher does more movies. That's very possible. I love that Oscar moment so much that I wouldn't trade it for anything, but I get you. Also, your ulterior motive is to give Angela Bassett an Oscar for what's love got to do with it, and we cannot blame me for that. We can't blame you for that. Okay. It is. Anyway, should we get into the 60-second plot description? We should. We, of course, have been sidetracked by Share. We are 20 minutes into the episode. Let's do it. All right. So once again,

Guys, we're here to talk about tea with Mussolini directed and co-written by Franco Zafarelli. We have like a legend that we're talking about this week. Yes. Also co-written by John Mortimer, starring Cher, Maggie Smith, Joan Plowwright, Judy Dench, Lily Tomlin, and a bunch of other men that come and go throughout the movie. The movie opened in late March of 1999 in Italy, waited until mid-May to open. Open stateside, get that good, you know, counter-programming dollars the week before the Phantom Menacea. Wow, yeah, for sure. What a year.

Joseph. Yes. You have what we might say is an unenviable task. Yes. Of doing a 60-second plot description of tea with Mussolini. There's a lot, weirdly a lot going on in this movie. Yes. So much going on.

Yes. All right. If you're ready. Yes. And I hope you are. Your time starts now. All right, picture at Florence, 1935. The drums of war are beating in the distance,

and Mussolini is making the trains run on time in Italy, which is good news at the moment for the Scorpione, which is what they call the fancy English lady expats living in the city. Maggie Smith is the HBIC, while at Judy Dunches the eccentric art connoisse, and Joan Plowright is the sweet secretary to a local Italian son of a bitch who won't care for Luca, the orphan son he's fathered. So Plowwright and a coterie of English grandies have all decided to pitch in and raise the boy themselves, also helping out a share, an extroverted American millionaires,

who comes to Florence every now and then, and new Luca's mother and sets up a trust fund even as the boy's father. ships them off to Nazi school in Vienna. Meanwhile, the fascists are getting froggy in Florence, so Maggie Smith gets a meeting with Mussolini, who promises her that she and her rich lady friends won't be harmed by his jackbooted thugs. Cut to a few years later, though, in Italy, disclares war on Britain and France, and now all the fancy English ladies get rounded up into barracks by local authorities, and then they get upgraded to a fancy hotel prison, which Maggie Smith thinks her pal Mussolini did it, but actually it's

sharing her money. Meanwhile, Luca's back looking like Jonathan Graff, and he's missing, he's smitten with Mama Cher, even though she's dating a Skiy Italian lawyer, and it turns out that he's out to steal her fortune and turn her Jewish fabulousness over to the Gestapo. At first, jealous baby Luca doesn't do anything about it until Joe Plotry tells him what time it is and then Luca and the ladies in the Italian resistance she'd snare a sneak share out of the country and the boy

grew up to be Franco Zaferelli. It's a lot of plot. It's almost too much plot. It's almost too much plot. It is. It has that like this would be a miniseries feeling to it and maybe it kind of should be even though like the temperature

on this movie is pretty pretty low throughout. So it's like, it's a, somewhat of a jarring experience that it's like, it's never quite tense. It doesn't ever kind of build, but a lot is happening. Well, and it's also... Jumping through, it's like skipping across years. It has a dedication to remaining, you know, a little bit light and a little bit tender and beautiful, which I appreciate. Like, I don't, I was not longing for this movie to end up, you know, with these women getting brutalized in, you know, the sort of semi-prison camp situation that they ended up in. I didn't need to see Judy Dench get shot by the brown shirts for this movie to, you know, land its gravity or whatever. So I was happy about that.

but it does create some kind of dissonance. It doesn't back away from the fact that this is World War II and terrible things are happening but it also doesn't back away the fact from the fact that it wants to be also about a movie about nice tea ladies

and it ultimately doesn't do a great job of reconciling that while also trying to get through so much of this plot There's, you know, there's Maggie Smith's nephew who is essentially dodging the draft from Britain by remaining in Florence with his grandmother. She's his grandmother or his aunt, I can't remember, but one of the things. And he ends up hiding out with them in a dress, pretending to be one of the ladies. And then ultimately, like, can't take it anymore. and he runs out to the Italian resistance

and tells them he's a man and he wants to fight with them and that's all well and good. And like, that's a whole subplot. And then the Lucas stuff, which the other thing about this movie is it's autobiographical about Franco Zefferelli to a degree I was not prepared for. Like when I went and like read his Wikipedia bio,

a lot of this is right from his life where like orphaned child, father was out of, you know, an out of wedlock child helped brought up by the Scorpione, who were, you know, real-life British expat ladies in Florence at the time. Down to, like, the fact that, like, he ended up falling in with the Italian resistance

and, like, then ended up hooking up with a group of Scottish soldiers and becoming their interpreter. Like, all of that is out of Zephyrilli's life. And so, like, there's a lot of focus on this Luca kid who, ends up being, you know, he's a little kid at the beginning and his little, like, you know, sailor suit kind of a stuff. And Joan Plowright has this very sort of motherly bond with him, and so does Cher, but she's, you know, flighty and in and out and whatever.

And then he comes back as a teenager, and his sort of infatuation with Cher ends up making him make some bad choices, and then he makes the right choices, and yet. So there's a lot about Luca in this, who, A, looks like Jonathan Groff. Well, he's also really hard to track throughout the movie because, like I said, the movie, like, not jumps back and forth, but, like, it'll be 1940 for three minutes, and then it'll be 1945, like, you know, that type of thing. And it's all played by different actors at each stage. so and they all look different and it's hard to it's a character that I couldn't get any type of grasp on whatsoever especially also because we really care more about the women yes you really are just like there's a lot about a lot of this movie is spent being like when is Cher coming back because she also like she goes in and out of the movie and like whatever and like I think she's really not the lead of the movie no more than anyone

else, Joan Plowright is really the lead of the movie and I think she's wonderful. Yeah. Joan Plowright was actually my favorite. I loved her. She's a wonderful, wonderful, warm, lovely character and she does a really great job with it. She gets some of the more emotional stuff to deal with, too.

Also, the kid playing Luca isn't great. Like, I don't want to be, like, mean about it, but, like, it's great. The other thing about, I said he looks like Jonathan Groff, but the other thing about Luca is he looks almost, like, frighteningly, like a friend of mine who I texted him later and I was just like, I found your doppelganger in Tea with Mussolini

and he's like, what is that? And I'm just like, okay, well, go watch this movie. And it's like, it's uncanny how much this kid looks like my friend Cole. And it's just like, it was freaking me out. But it also made me really like him probably more than I would

in a normal circumstance because normally, like, he's a frustrating kid when he's a teen, and he's sort of, you know, kind of fucking Cher over because he's jealous of her with this Italian lawyer who was, like, the most obviously bad for Cher person. Like, it's a very, it's, this is a movie that is secretly about how Cher really shouldn't ever want to get married because, like, the men in her life really-

The Castorini's would not approve. Ain't shit, yeah. Yeah, so I think, the movie not being as much about the ladies as it could be is a problem because it's taking away from

the movie's greatest strength, which is that it has this amazing cast of women. Mm-hmm. But, on the other hand, again, you know, it's not as great as the sum of its parts, but in their own individual scenes,

like, I loved Judy Dench as the like not quite flighty. She basically is playing the weird one kind of, like, at least positions her at first as the weird one, where she's like, like, flowing scarves. And she has, ultimately, she has, you know, great depths, and she loves the art so much,

and she, um, it's very, uh, forusibalk at the end of Almost Famous, where she's just like, to love a piece of art so much. Can you believe these new girls? None of them use birth control. And they eat all the steak. I mean, they don't even know what it is to be a fan. You don't have to truly love some silly little piece of music or some band so much that it hurts.

And she's just like, you know, she's a groupie for great Italian artists. But, like, I loved the fact that it was Judy Dench playing The Weirdo, because we've seen her in so many other things playing, you know, stately or, you know, an authority figure or... Well, and it's also the year after her Oscar went to, which I suppose that this was probably filmed either

during or before, but like you could just as easily see her play one of the other roles in it not be as interesting. Well, and she also kind of plays you've seen Chocolat more recently than I have. She also plays kind of a kooky local lady in Chocolat, right? She plays

more like Oscar the Grouch. Oh, okay. Drinking hot chocolate. Let's see if Oscar the Grouch had hot chocolate to drink all day, then he wouldn't be quite so grouchy, is my hypothesis. Famously French Oscar the Grouch. I also just like that it was Judy Dench that got to kind of be the one that's friends with Lily Tomlin. Yeah, I mean, they all are to a degree. Like, they're all, you know, friendly with her.

Lily Tomlin and Cher are like the closest together. And there's this, you know, quasi-intimation. that, like, Lily Tomlin sort of holds something of a torch for Cher when she gets, like, super jealous that Sharon this Italian lawyer are getting together. But, because Joan Plow Right, I think, also seems, you know, very, like... Joan Plow Right, it's, like, the sad one among them. Well, right. Her backstory is that her husband and father both died in World War I, and she doesn't have any kids, and that's part of the reason why she's sort of taken this mother-like. bond to Luca the way she does.

And she's definitely, yeah, the most sort of serious. Maggie Smith is the mean one, the snobiest of them. And Judy Dench is, you know, the art weirdo. And we love her for it. It's, I thought it was so funny watching. Yes, yes, exactly. And she's the one who ultimately at the end makes the brave move to sort of stand between the Italians looking to demolish the art museum, just as the allies are sort of rolling into town.

The Scots come in and save the day. She saves that whole museum. So we love her for it. I did think while watching this, that it's so funny. I often think about this with like actors who are these like really great actors. You reminded me of it when you were watching grumpy old men this week. I was watching both of the grumpy. and grumpy air the grumpy cinematic universe and I was texting you or maybe tweeting with you and her friend Jesse

about how that was the first movie I had ever seen Jack Lemon in even though weirdly enough I had already seen I knew Walter Matho from Dennis the Menace and I knew Anne Margaret from

Newsies so like all of these sort of like odd little like first interactions with these people. That grumpy or old men might have been the first time I had ever seen Sophia Loren in a movie, so maybe there was that. But watching this movie made me think about that, too, where Joan Plowright, definitely the first thing I ever saw her in was Dennis the Menace, because she played Walter Mathos' wife in that movie. Weirdly, like, Dennis the Menace was an early text

for a lot of things for me. Maggie Smith, of course, the first movie I ever saw her in was Sister Act. Like, I had no idea, no idea watching Sister Act that this was like already a two-time Academy Award winner in this film up as at Whoopi Goldberg I mean, Cher I knew from a billion things, obviously, Mermaids and all this other sort of stuff and like, Cher, you knew

from her very existence. Yeah, and like Lily Tomlin is somebody I had seen in probably like a billion things up to... Oh, nine to five ever since I was a kid. Right. But the thing about Lily Tomlin is, for whatever reason, my mind had blocked her from being in the poster, but she's there.

And like, her presence in this movie is so odd to me. She comes in at like kind of these unexpected parts. She's friends with all of these Brits, which I suppose like Cher is American too. Yes. She's the least essential to the plot.

Right. Right. So it's like her place in this movie is very unbalanced. Yes. I think she's sort of the, I think she's the, you know how you put like salt in a sweet recipe to accentuate the sweetness? She is

the American who by her presence, all the British ladies seem like all the more British, maybe? There's also a character who's sort of the newspaper reporter, and I can't place the name of the actress now. I'm going to try and find it in the cast list. But I was sort of hoping that she would be a little bit more of a character. There's one point where, no, I've got to bring up my notes because I wrote this down,

where she says, she's accused of sleeping around with a lot of the Italian locals, And she just goes, I experience life, and I owe it to my talent as a writer. And I was just like, that is the best justification for hoeing out that I've ever seen in my life. And I love it so much. I'll use it as a justification for anything. Dining. Right. I owe it to my talent as a writer.

Like, get it. Get all of it. Boosing. Yeah, I do sort of wish that Lily Tomlin had been more of a character with, like, more to do. But then also, I did spend a lot of this movie being very, very worried that, like, she's, she's a lesbian in this movie, and she's pretty, like, out about it. And in all of these things that you see, like, you know, I've seen Cabaret, too. It's always that fifth most essential character that dies. And it's, and, like, but I've seen Cabaret, like, I know what happens to the decadence in Weimar, Germany.

Like, I, like, you're instinctively, just incredibly concerned that, like, they're going to make an example of her or something. And I'm very thankful that that did not happen. That's where I sort of came in. I was just like, I'm thankful that this is Zeparelli wanting to tell his sort of coming of age story in a way that was sweet. And that made me sort of, you know, thankful for that, even if ultimately. The thing that I kept thinking about through this whole movie in terms of like the sweetness and what this setting is and like what was going on in the world at the time. I kept thinking about, because I just recently watched Life as Beautiful, and I spent most of that movie being vaguely or outright offended by what Roberto Panini was doing. And I was worried once this movie started ramping up that we were going to get that, and it didn't.

It never goes that far into this kind of like rose-tinted glasses. look at World War II in Italy that it's like, you know, just like obfuscating what was happening. Wasn't it actually very funny and silly in this time? Yeah. Isn't the triumph of the spirit really what it's all about? Right.

We should talk about Zeparelli for a second, who is almost certainly best known for directing the 1968 Romeo and Juliet, which starred... Which he got a director nomination for... Best Picture nominee, Best Director nominee at the 1968 Oscars. Of course, we all know... Most assuredly, the Romeo and Juliet, that our listeners have all had wheeled in on a TV

to watch in, like, middle school or high school... Literature classes. Same. But also, my question to you is, did they show you an edit that that skips past the nude scene? The boo? Yes, Olivia, Olivia Hussie's bare breasts in that movie. I would assume that most of our listeners have,

but that's definitely the version that people have seen. We kind of had a cool teacher who showed us William Shakespeare's, Romeo plus Juliet. Perfect. I was probably of the generation where that started to be a thing. William Shakespeare's... Get away with it.

Yeah, William Shakespeare's Romeo plus Juliet came out while I was in high school, so they were definitely not showing us that. They definitely showed us... Interestingly enough, I watched the Zeparelli Romeo and Juliet in school, and I also watched the Zephyrelli Hamlet

in school, when they were... When they were teaching us Hamlet. Yes, the Mel Gibson Hamlet, because they did not have time to show us all 8 billion hours of Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet, which also came out while I was in high school. But yes, so Romeo and Juliet is definitely, like, his most known and probably widely acclaimed film.

But, like, his filmography is really kind of interesting. His first big movie was The Taming of the Shrew, which was right before Romeo and Juliet, which starred Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton, which makes me want to go and see that movie. But he directed movies like The Champ. that one with John Voight as the boxer and, like, a little Ricky Schroeder, he directed... That's what he yells while sobbing, right? The little boy.

Yes. Yeah, get up. Yes, exactly. Yes. Traumatizing. Current, uh, maga scum, Ricky Schroeder, yes. And John Voight. Yeah, also scum.

He directed the notoriously, uh, sort of, uh, not well-loved, Endless Love, which starred Brook Shields and Tom Cruise was in it, and truly the... Very sweaty. Yes, the most lasting impact of that film is, of course, the title song that was by Diana Ross and Lionel Richie that was nominated for an Oscar, because everything nominated for an Oscar in the 80s was a hit. I also associate that song so much more with Happy Gilmore. of course absolutely kind of me too that's the whole story with his grandmother and then the guy on the whatever you call the

the zamboni the ice glazing machine is singing along yeah friends listened to endless love in the dark was the thing that I said a lot when I was a smart alecky teen the 1990 hamlet is interesting um this cast in this is amazing that's the other thing is like as zeporelli's career went on he just attracted the most star studded international casts to his movies. His Hamlet, Mel Gibson plays Hamlet, which, yikes. Glenn Close is Queen Gertrude, which, what's the age separation there? It can't be much. Mel Gibson's born in 1956.

Glenn Close is born in 1947, so that's a nine-year age difference for mother and son in that film. Ellen Bates is in the movie, Paul Schofield, Ian Holm. Helen Abottom Carter is the Ophelia in this one, I always think is funny that she's the Ophelia in this

and not in Kenneth Branagh's Hamlet. The Brana one. And that's Kate Winslet, who is Ophelia in that one. Stephen Delane is in the Zephyrelli Hamlet, Pete Paisalthwaite. It's a very, very well-cast movie. Probably did have Oscar buzz.

We probably could get away with... It's, we can't do... Oh, it was nominated? It is nominated for two awards. Oh, art direction and costume design. That does not surprise me. That does not surprise me. Yeah, not surprising.

Okay. He directs a Jane Eyre in 1996 with William Hurt and Charlotte Gainsborg that just sounds traumatizing. I feel like that would be like emotionally intense in a way that would be. It would be Jane Eyre via Antichrist because Charlotte Gainsburg is there. I guess it's probably not fair of me to only vibe with Charlotte Gainsborg along the lines of the Lars von Trier movie. that she's made, but, like, they're all so traumatizing. Joan Plow Right is also in that Jane Eyre, as is Fiona Shaw, as is Geraldine Chaplin, again, just, like, attracts these really star-studded casts. He did a, I believe it was a television movie or miniseries in the 70s called Jesus of Nazareth that would always get replayed around Easter time.

And on, like, Hallmark Channel before they were making their own things. I talk a lot about how my dad and I and my siblings would all watch the Ten Commandments every Easter. But, like, also with my dad, I would, my dad, it sounds like my dad is this, like, giant religious person, and he's really not. He just, like, but, like, Jesus of Nazareth and the greatest story ever told, which I think is the one that stars Max von Sido as Jesus. Sounds right. We would watch both of those things all the time. Like, my dad was very much into, like, the biblical epics on television, and so we would watch all of those. things but like now i'm looking at the cast of jesus of nazareth and it's genuinely insane where it's like isn't

anne bancroft in that or something anne bancroft is mary magdalen olivia hussy yes from uh juliet from romeo and juliet is mary the mother of jesus which is the only one of these big cast members that i remember from the movie but like ernest borgonite is in this movie valentina cortezza james earl jones stacey keach james mason as joseph of arimathea Ian McShane, well before anybody who knew who he was, is Judas Ascariot, Lawrence Olivier is in this, Donald Pleasance, Christopher Plummer, Anthony Quinn, Rod Steiger, Peter Eustinoff, Michael York, Ian Holm, like, it genuinely boggles my mind. How many, like, big stars are... Major television events. Yeah, like, genuinely. This had to have been a BBC thing or something. But anyway, like, that... Like, that's sort of the Zephyrilli vibe. And then Tee with Mussolini is the second last feature film he ever made, released in 1999.

He made something called Callas Forever in 2002, which was about Maria Callis. Yeah, that's the Maria Callis biopic. Yes. Plow Right is also in that. Jeremy Irons is in that. So, yeah, it's his, it's funny, for a long time before. I really knew, like, what was going on, I would get Zeparelli and Bertolucci sort of confused a lot, which is these sort of just like...

They definitely have different, like, vibes. Definitely different vibes. Zeparelli is definitely sort of the sort of more soft pedally, like Bertolucci is... Sexuality. Yeah. Although Zeparelli had some real unsavory things thrown his way, sort of as later in life, Jonathan Sheck accused him of. sexual assaults during the filming of a movie called Sparrow in 1993. Oh, wow.

Yeah. And also the guy who played Benvolio in Romeo and Juliet says that there were unwanted sexual advances by Zephyrlli. This according to Wikipedia, which again, grain assault, grain assault. But, yeah, so Hollywood, full of people whose lives do not pass the scrutiny of where they sexual creeps. He also, like, came out as gay, but then also, like, affirmed the Catholic Church's positions on homosexuality and abortion.

He was a very, very, like, staunch Roman Catholic in his life and sort of said something semi-Asemitic about the Last Temptation of Christ and Jewish Hollywood, which, like, just a lot of, like, not great stuff in the little. later years for uh for zeparelli but here we stand yes exactly lot that's a lot i mean it's not like this is a movie that you're going to praise for its direction or anything no and again i mean we you know separate the art and the artist yada yada yada but yeah um much much happier to talk about share and judy dench of course uh in this film um share is great in this movie she's great in this movie. This is the thing.

Like, this movie doesn't need Cher to be great. This movie needs Cher to show up. And Cher is, I mean, she's not really in that much of it, but like, you mentioned her doing smoke gets in your eyes, which is just like, God, kill me, throw me into the sea,

what can get better than this? And it's like 15 seconds worth of it, but it's so... Right, it's not even the full song. Wonderful, probably 30 seconds. I'm undervaluing it, but like... Movies with smoke gets in your eyes. the cinematic universe that I am most interested in. Yeah, so what? It's this. It's 45 years. It's

The Bitter Tiers of Petrovon Kant. Nice. Nice. This is your film festival that you were going to program when I win the lottery and I do, although somebody won that goddamn billion dollar power ball last night and it wasn't me and I'm really mad. You will buy me a revival theater and I will only program movies. If I ever win the lottery, that is what I will do is I will open a revival movie house, yes. What was I going to say, though? Share.

Okay, so she sort of... Also the first time that she had sang on film before. Yes, which I was very surprised by. This movie also knows that it has Cher, because it, like, it really paves an entrance for her. She sort of, like, rolls into town in this, like, convertible black and white, like, Rolls-Royce-looking town car. And she, like, her outfit, like...

matches the car and she's just like really super fabulous there is one point just before actually she sings smoke gets in your eyes she says where's my goddamn Picasso and honestly like that could have been the movie right there is Cher saying where's my goddamn Picasso that's all I want out of this um yeah she's wonderful she's very warm towards Luca like this is the other thing like people always sort of talk about Cher as if she's this um because she's so powerful she has such like you know great power and she's been famously uh sort of has said all these things about just like she doesn't need a husband she's gonna you know do what she wants and yeah yeah people sort of gloss onto her this uh almost like a like a dragon lady persona that she's sort of like fearful

like she plays warmth so well like she plays other things so well too she's you know uh in in mermaids and in moonstruck she's very sort of tough and whatnot but um Um, she plays warmth so well towards Luca in this movie and also towards like Joan Plowright and Lily Tomlin. Like she seems like a really great friend in this movie. She seems like a, like, but also she's like, as all of these women are, at least most of them, are like pretty naive towards what's happening around them and her wealth, much like Maggie Smith's sort of has cocooned her in this world that she's able to sort of like operate in in a way that like, act. most women at that time wouldn't be able to. Like, she's independently wealthy because she's married these, like, older rich men who have then died. And so she has the money to spend on Picasso's and to travel to Florence and to do all this and to be independent. Nice work if you can get.

Yeah, exactly. How do we do this? And as would be probably anybody in that position at the time. Like, she has some self-awareness for sure, but she still ultimately is like she doesn't see it coming when this Italian skeezer sort of, you know, tries to steal her money and sell her into the not to sell her to the Nazis and um so it's there's pathos there right there's you know you feel for her and as deeply as this movie kind of wants you to you know it's not this isn't this movie doesn't want uh huge levels of pathos no but yes i see i agree but it's not all just like she's not all brassy she's not all

like you know um yeah i mean really it only kind of gives her space to do that at the beginning of the movie and then it just lets her be this character you know you she blouses into the movie and you half expect her to become like anti-mame or something right really she's really not that character i probably could have gone with a script that allowed her and maggie smith to sort of throw some barbs at each other a little bit more maggie has a couple of these sort of like from afar kind of things about how she, you know, she, you know, can't wait to be rid of Cher's character and she, you know, she resents her and all the sort of stuff.

And I would have liked maybe a little bit of opportunities for those two to kind of snipe at each other a little bit more. You know, they're called... Especially because, like, the emotional climax of the movie is, like, their reconciliation, where Maggie Smith is like, you've just been screwed over by this man and that's how I relate to you and shares like oh when did that happen to you and Maggie Smith's like Musilini right yes you you and this man who's trying to kill you it is the most reach of a monologue um yes but yes this is why she decides to

help her connect with her because of this arbitrary very screenwriting class monologue yes and i think if there were more between the two of them early on, where they were really, you know, at each other's throats a little bit more, in a very sort of, you know, genteel, rich lady way, of course. Like, clearly, you know that Maggie Smith's character can't stand her. And the implication is that, like, Elsa knows it and, like, doesn't really care for her either. But it's less of a real rivalry that it maybe should be if that's your big emotional... climax definitely and it could have allowed for a lot more fun yeah yeah totally um do you think this movie does enough at the beginning to sell this sort of florentine lifestyle in a way that like

you would these british lady ladies who just live their lives in italy yeah that they won't leave it you know what i mean i think maybe my thinking was that like i maybe would have wanted just a little bit more at the beginning to just be like, why won't they just go to England and be fancy ladies in England? This is, well, well, because they can fetishize the art.

I think that's a big part of it. And I think that's why the Densch characters that feels like this is what, back to my thing of like this movie isn't particularly well directed is like that feels like a very specific thing or a very

specific type of these elder British women who decide to live in Italy for reasons X, Y, and Z, and this is the context in which they did it. It feels incredibly specific, and the movie is just kind of flat in that way, and that, like, that is a really interesting-sounding character type that they just kind of gloss over. Yes. Yeah. And just let them be in the surround. All of the characters feel specific in their own ways, where it's like you get. why these would all be people or at least like character types that come from

Zephyrelli's memory right where and that tracks that like that there's somebody who's so sort of like ensconced in her own privilege that she believes that she can you know get these assurances from Mussolini and then sort of look the other way and all these things and you believe that somebody believe because it's share, that somebody like the share character would have existed. And yet the movie

ultimately is so content at being you know, the Luca story that it doesn't feel as, you know, experiential on the behalf of the women. So, I don't know.

This movie definitely, it's interesting that it had 66% on Rotten Tomato because it definitely didn't feel like it at the time. It definitely felt like the reviews were worse than that. Really? Okay, see, I guess I was surprised that it was as good of reviews as it was. I mean, like, it's kind of the type of middling thing that, like, critics are never going to be the audience for this movie. But I remember, like, this being the type of movie that knew exactly what its audience was.

So it was just in theaters all summer, but I never saw it. Yeah. But, like, it was perfectly counter-programmed to, like, you usually do see in early summer a movie meant for an older audience, like, against all of these, like, action movies and whatnot. But, like, it makes absolute sense that this movie opened the week before Phantom Menace did. Yes. Although Phantom Menace, that summer was so, I feel, like, concentrated. the attention that summer was so concentrated on phantom medicine. The only thing that even got a smidge of other attention was Austin Powers,

the spy shag me. And that like it really was tough for anything else to get oxygen, even counter programming. It did manage to get $14 million at the box office, which is actually really good for a movie like this. Even though I can't imagine it was all that cheap to make, considering, you know, you had share, you were filming in Italy, yet, yada, yada. IMDB says the budget was

$12 million, so it seems to have made a tidy profit global-wise, although Lord knows the economics of these things are wild as hell and full of lies and fairy tales and fallacies, as Moni Kart would say.

So, yeah, so good for this movie. I'm now looking at the poster, one of the posters, there's a few posters. But the one that I like the best... It literally looks like a postage stamp. It does, but it also looks like Cher is in heaven, staring down beatifically at the other women. And it's also like, it's Tomlin. Yeah, she's not at the tea table with them.

So it makes you, again, back to the confusion of what the fuck is this title? It's like, wait a minute. Is Cher Mussolini? Right. She's the ghost of Mussolini and reincarnated his share. But it's like, it's Tomlin and Dench and Smith and Plow right at the table. And then it's both of the actors who played Luca, which I think is very funny as a concept.

Again, confusing. Okay, like cool, but also weird and strange. So there's that. This movie did not ultimately make a dent in the 1999 Oscar race, but we should talk about the 1999 Oscars because they are a real fascinating sort of topic. I mean, it makes complete sense that this movie wouldn't A, being, a summer movie, like, be able to leg it out throughout the season, even though it made money, and it could have been, like, a Globes Comedy thing.

Because, like, 1999 is so fucking macho. Yes. Where it's, like, the sensitive movie is Cider House rules. It's true. And, like, the Green Mile. Yeah. Yeah, the Green Mile being, like, comparatively, as, I guess there are, the fact that the Sixth Sense is about a little boy is also sort of like a little sensitive but yeah you're right like this is

definitely the obviously the thing about 1999 is that this just like legendary amazing year for movies and then the best picture lineup ends up being a terrible Oscar year really underwhelming but you make a good point about the Golden Globe comedy that like actress in a comedy could have made some room for this but it didn't one of the reasons why I think is there was a more, or at least like a better received released later in the year, costume comedy released that year, which was an ideal husband that Julianne Moore gets a nomination for at the Globes that year. Janet McTeer won the actress in a comedy Golden Globe that year for Tumbleweeds on her way to her first of two Oscar nominations in her career. And have you seen Tumbleweeds? I still haven't. I finally caught up to that. I still haven't. I know after we did our Anywhere But Here episode, I said that I would, and I still have not seen Tumbleweaves. Very similar movies. I vastly prefer anywhere but here. It's just like, even for some, me, someone who, like, I want to watch nothing about those

movies about this of a mother and daughter, like, going across the country, et cetera. It didn't land with me. I don't even, I mean, like, Janet McTeer is really charming, but, like, I wasn't laughing. Right. For it to win a comedy. It's like one of those things that it was put in comedy because it's lighthearted. Yeah. Julia Roberts was also nominated that year for Notting Hill. This was the big, one of the big sort of like Julia Roberts's back baby kind of a thing, even though my best friend's wedding was only two years earlier than that. But this was the year where it's like, she's back and the box office is sort of hers. It was this and runaway bride like back to back. And everybody was celebrating Julia and the, And then, of course, that would lead into the next year when she's in Aaron Brockovich, and she wins the Oscar. Classic Golden Globe nominee there, right? Hit movie, big movie star, very likable.

Of course, they're going to nominate Julia Roberts in Notting Hill. Reese Witherspoon in Election is definitely the cool nominee that year. That's the Emma Stone and EasyA nomination, I feel like, of that year. Because Election wasn't ever really, I mean, it was an Oscar nominee, but Election feels like it would get more respect now, but, like, at the time, it was the nasty, mean-spirited movie. It was an MTV movie.

Rees Witherspoon had, like, category confusion. Which is weird and strange. And, like, yeah. Would only happen to a younger actress in that role. Absolutely. Yeah, it was produced by MTV Films, and it was marketed towards young people initially. And ultimately, I think probably, I would say the critics were the ones to just be like, no, this is a really good movie and you need to pay attention to this.

And thankfully, it did get that screenplay nomination because it was highly deserved. And that is a movie that has steadily gotten more and more respect as the years have gone on. It's in the Criterion Collection. And rightly so. And then the fifth nominee at the Globes for Best Comedy Actress that year is the one. that tickles me the most, and that is Sharon Stone for the Muse, the Albert Brooks movie, The Muse.

Which is a funny movie. I've never seen it, and I want to. I just love that Sharon Stone was pulling down nominations like that from the Globes. On the regular, kind of, because she also got nominated for the Mighty, I want to say. I would love to do an episode on the Mighty. We should do, we should do an episode on the Mighty.

I would love to just do like a deep dive into Sharon Stone in general. She's had four Golden Globe, nominations throughout her career, and she obviously won for Casino on route to her only Oscar nomination, but she was nominated for Basic Instinct, 92, Casino 95, which she won, the Mighty 1998, supporting actress, and then the muse in 1999. Like, that's, that is a, that is one of those occasions where the Golden Globes feel far more representative of an actor's career than their Oscar fortunes, right?

Like, Sharon Stone was that much of a thing in the 90s that she would have gotten for Golden Globe nominations. That seems correct. We haven't done right by Sharon Stone. I mean, that's, I say it all the time, and it's true. People have asked us before on mailback episodes, who is a great, kooky actress to follow on Instagram? Sharon Stone is high on that list. I believe it. She might be high on something.

Yes. But, yeah, so, yeah, 99, almost none of those women in the Golden Globe comedy actress category made it to the Oscars. Only Janet McTeer did. Which feels like a jockeying thing of, like, saying, no, this is a comedy for something that isn't, and it obviously paid off. Yeah. She was probably firmly third place for the Oscar. Oh, who do you think was second? It's so funny that I think of those two

Almost as like tied for first that I'm just like Well of course it was McTeer left Yeah it was the two of them and then McTeer yes I think she was solidly third Probably Julianne Moore Fourth and then Merrill for Music of the Heart Fifth Yeah that seems about right yeah Release the vote totals that is all we want I brought up my own personal 1999 actress and supporting actress lists

because I wanted to. Oh, fun. I wasn't prepared with those, so late on. All right. So my supporting actress that year, which, like, one of the great, even, like, the Oscars got that one really well. For as much as we sort of rag on Best Picture that year, the Oscar nominees were Angelina Jolie and Girl Interrupted, who is great. Catherine Keener, being John Malcovic, great. Chloe 7, Ye, Boys Don't Cry, great. Tony Collette, in The Sixth Sense, great. And then Samantha Morton, in, sort of. beat in lowdown who was good. So solid to very solid set of nominees there. On my own list, I have Keener, Seven Ye, and, sorry, I'm looking at this thing, Keener, Seven Ye, and Collette,

for sure, for sure, for sure. I have Cameron Diaz for being John Malcovic, who was a Globe nominee, but not an Oscar nominee. I think she's really great. in that. And then my winner that year, who never got Oscar or awards attention, which is really too bad, is Helen Abottom Carter and Fight Club, who I think is a stoundingly good, astoundingly good. But that was also the year that, like, Julianne Moore was in a bunch of things as a supporting actress. That could have got, she was... Cookies Fortune. Magnollia, a map of the world.

Like, she's fantastic in all the... I know that, like, her Magnolia performance. is a little bit divisive. Some people think it's too big to be good, but I think that movie accommodates big. That's the movie. That's the thing. And I do love her big sort of freakouts in that movie. Best actress, I have Swank and Benning, of course, Rees Witherspoon in election, of course. I have Kate Winslet in Holy Smoke, the Jane Campion movie, Holy Smoke. Ooh, I need to catch up to that. It's weird. It's super weird.

She plays a... It's not the movie where she pees? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. She plays a young woman who has sort of fallen under the influence of a cults in Australia or maybe New Zealand, knowing Jane Campion. And Harvey Keitel is tasked with sort of going to find her and deprogram her. and it's a very sort of like contentious slash I'm pretty sure sexual sort of thing encounter between the two of them

it's been a while since I've seen it I should probably watch it again and then my fifth nominee that year is Sigourney Weaver in a map of the world who did get a Golden Globe nomination and that is a bummer of a movie that is like a bummer of a movie because it's about a kid who dies but like she is she and Julianne Moore actually together are like really really great

in that one but yeah I think that's a really good year for actress performances two names that I would throw in there that haven't been mentioned because I don't have I didn't prepare my ballot for it

but two names that mine would probably be amalgam of names that we've mentioned but two that we haven't mentioned in supporting actress I would say Kate Blanchett for the talented Mr. Ripley. Yes, it's a very good pick. And lead actress, I would say,

Cecilia Roth for All About My Mother. Also a very good pick. Yeah, it was a really great year. There was some really, really worthy, worthy actress nominations of that year. What else do we want to talk about from Missalini, though? Well, I mean, we could mention, even though she got bad reviews,

Maggie Smith won BAFTA for this movie and supporting actress. God bless her. I don't think she's bad in this movie. So, like, she's, is she, uh, I think those reviews are just being mean, and it's critics who naturally are not going to like that. I mean, like, it's not like, I'm not one of those people that's like, of course critics didn't like this movie. But, like, I think at the time, like, there was especially hostility towards this type of movie that they just want to roll their eyes at. And I think that's probably part of it. And again, but yeah, Maggie Smith won against no Oscar nominees.

also nominated Cameron Diaz for being John Malkovich, Kate Blanchett for a talented Mr. Ripley, and both from American Beauty, Mina Suvari and Thoroughby. Wow. It was interesting. The American Beauty Oscar sort of journey is really interesting in and of itself, but like the fact that Spacey and Benning

were such strong acting contenders in the lead races that that movie wasn't able to harness supporting nominations for either Mina Suvari, Thora Birch, Chris Cooper or West Bentley when I think like all of them

had showy enough sort of stuff. Chris Cooper especially. Chris Cooper kind of especially, right? Like he was... That's absolutely like the type of performance that gets like that just sales to a nomination. If he had already been an Oscar winner by that point, like if American Beauty had come after adaptation,

Because what was the biggest thing he had really done before? Lone Star, kind of, right? Yeah, I was going to say the John Sales movie, right? But he was like a very, very, like, character actors, character actor. Like, you didn't really know who he was. And also Alice and Janney, too. Like, that was right after the West Wing happened. So, Alice and Janie was still kind of in character actress mode for that as well.

And that's another one where you could see. see it happening later where like it's a really small role but it's also uh the sort of shell-shockedness of her feels like it would be could be hooky for something like that uh if she was already sort of a big name after the fact that is a movie i am petrified to revisit because i really at the time kind of flipped for it i was uh 19 years old I mean, a lot of people did. I feel like, well, and we also kind of responded to the aesthetics of it, right? Because it's an incredibly well-made movie.

And, like, in ways that we, those type, we've talked about this before, where, like, the 90s were just this build-up of these, like, left-of-center chastisements of, like, suburban life, right? And I think it had a very different visual appeal that, you know, kind of transcended a lot of those other movies, too. So it kind of gave it this air of being something a little bit more special. And really just didn't interrogate that screenplay. And if it was, it was just that people thought the premise of this man wanting to sleep with a teenager was icky and they didn't want to approach it. Whereas, like, that's still a problem, but it has a whole, like, bunch of other problems, too. Where it's, like, that is a problem that the movie actually addresses and deals with in its climax. But it's like there's a whole lot else going on.

I think you're right, though. I think if you look back to the 80s and, like, ordinary people really set a template for the kind of family domestic trauma. And that's sort of how those movies were made for a long while. And then you're absolutely right about the 90s indie sort of revolution, kind of opening the doors for different types of stories. But those were all still very sort of low-budget indies that weren't interested in the kind of visual dazzle that American Beauty does. And also the performance dazzle. Because like Benning and Spacey are like doing big. stuff in that. And I remember really responding to that when I was, you know, a teenager

watching that movie because it was the kind of stuff that you didn't see in that kind of movie. I mean, the movie is essentially a comedy that got treated like it was a drama. And I think the fact that it was, it actually is a comedy is the thing that kind of latch people onto it. But like those type of movies, it's also that, you know, there was always something that was keeping it on the outside of wider acclaim. You think of, something like the ice storm which is per our episode where I think we danced around calling the movie chili

right right or chili for a wider audience or like something like happiness which is like way too far for most people it's almost like the Goldilocks and the three bears right where it's just like the ice storm is a little reserved and then happiness is way too grotesque and American Beauty was the

of porridge that was just right for awards voters, at least, and the public, too. Like, it was a really kind of popular movie with people who saw it at the time. Yeah, that's like a $150 million. I should revisit it. I bet you I don't end up hating it as much as I worry that I'm going to end up hating it. I don't think I'll like it as much as I liked it back then. But I'm interested to see what I still think of it. I'm sure there are...

How much you cringe? Yeah, yeah. And what I cringe at? Because you're right. it's not just the spacey stuff like it's the way i'll be interested to see how i respond to like the way the daughter is written the way the west bentley character is written the way that the movie sort of builds up to this horrified justification that chris cooper is going to commit a murder because he's worried

that his son is gay like that kind of a thing and but he's also like and it's the it's it's a very mike pence kind of like uh he's he's he's hateful because he's gay Like, he can't admit it, that kind of a thing, which is really cringy now. Also, just the hacky, like, he learns to appreciate life for once by looking at a photo, and then he dies. Also, the whole conceit about him sort of, like, flying and floating above this world that he's exiting as he's dying is some last scene of far and away. way nonsense but like even more sort of cringy what what i would also the final button of the movie is him saying if you don't know what i'm talking about don't worry cut to black you know and then a cover of the Beatles because chimes in it's just very um of a time i'm less

trepidacious about going back and revisiting six feet under, which at least at the time sort of knew it was trucking in a lot of unpleasantness. And there was like a lot of six feet under. I sort of forget about it because the finale is so wonderful and perfect and emotional that like I have such fondness. But like a lot of six feet under became really unpleasant because all like it kept sort of pushing its characters through the emotional muck so often that to the point where like I remember I would go into a six feet under season and I'm just like well last season we sort of broke David down now who's going to get broken down this season but it had these really strong characters that I felt really like a real affinity

for like Claire and and Ruth and and even David who like drove me crazy I ever tell you the story about how like six feet under is how I ended up coming out for the first time Oh, no. In a really weird way where I was watching an episode of Six Feet Under, and I can't remember the specifics of the episode. But it was one of the many episodes where David makes a self-destructive choice, like decides to either, like, cheat on Keith or, like, reject, you know, something, you know, this, like, proposal of Keith's or something like that. something where he chose isolation and aggravation over his own happiness. And I remember, for whatever reason, you know, going through it internally as it was, being, like, really upset about it.

And I was a AOL instant messaging with a friend of mine who also watched Six Feud Under. And I was just trying to explain why I was so frustrated by this. And I was just like, oh, my God, I'm so frustrated. And she's just like, why are you reacting this way? and that's when I was just like because like and then I like said you know I'm you know I'm gay and I you know it's bugging me because

you know whatever whatever because it's David and David's gay and that was the first time I had ever told anybody that I was gay because fucking David on 6 feet under drove me so fucking crazy like that was that was the first little moment yeah

yeah that's so lovely you actually have a nice AOL instant messenger story. The one. I feel like everyone else is a traumatic or... Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Maybe it was traumatic for you. I am projecting. It wasn't particularly traumatic. My friend who I told was like really, you know, kind about it and whatnot. And yeah. And then whatever. Well, I do have very specific contextual questions about this. that I need, just so you can paint the whole picture for me.

Yes. What was your font? What was your font color? And what was your font background color? I never... I never got super into tricking out my aim. Like, I know... This was a Times New Roman situation.

I think, yes, probably so. Because I think that was a thing that people younger than me did. Where I think if you got into AIM as a high school... schooler, you got real extra with how you were going to trick out your fonts and your backgrounds and whatever. Your way message, the whole negotiation of that. I think people like me who got into AIM as a college student, there was less of that, I think. Anecdotally is what I will say.

Maybe I'm just a deeply boring person who just like did. I definitely had a like a signature though or like a, you know how you had your away message, right? away message was a quote. And I definitely cycled through a lot of... Yours were definitely Tori Amos lyrics. You don't have to tell me. A lot of them were absolutely. Although less so before I came out, because I didn't want to like tip my hand too much.

But yeah, there were definitely a lot of Tory lyrics. It was way sadder on AIM. First of all, my away messages were usually Fiona Apple lyrics, which didn't matter because no one would talk to me. Oh, was it like, I don't know what to believe in? You don't know who I am from Never as a Promise? One of my favorite Fiona Appleson. I probably was really bad at it.

It was probably lyrics that I just really liked, and because I liked them, I thought they were representative of me, and I wasn't being, like, smart or witty. It was just something that I liked. It wasn't a method of communication I was good at. listen Fiona's here for all so she's there to help you communicate yeah

truly what my away message should have been would have been like deep disco blue background stars in yellow and in alternating all caps and lower case

I can feel something inside me say I really don't think I'm strong enough No. Perfect. Absolutely perfect. I just, there are so few share movies that we really do have to cherish all of them. And I think that's the lesson of tea with Mussolini. It's just like...

The bridge between Tea with Mussolini and Mermaids is a Paul Mazursky movie, and I've been getting really into Paul Mizorsky movie. So I'm going to try to seek that out. It feels like it's not available. Probably not. All share movies should be... this is the Criterion Collection's next challenge. Make all, like, just as you did with Streisand this year, like all Cher movies should be available and together.

This is, I need come back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean to be available. Obviously, Silkwood and Moonstruck, obviously. Yeah, why isn't Silkwood and Criterion? That would make total sense. It would make total sense. It's Cher, it's Merrill, it's Mike Nichols, it's Nora Ephron. It's all of it together.

All right. Do we have any closing thoughts? I'm going to delve into. I talked about smoke gets in your eyes. I talked about where's my goddamn Picasso. One thing I took note of. When Maggie Smith says, I'm going to have tea with Mussolini. No, wait, she doesn't say it. It's after she gets photographed. And it's the ladies themselves. And I think it's Judy Dent. She says she had tea with Mussolini. I was like, yes. this Jonathan Groff-ass-looking boy the quote from the reporter which I really liked yeah Angela Lansberry and Vanessa Redgrave in this movie would have been an interesting

They would have been the plow right and the Smith Vanessa Redgrave definitely would have been the smith I've seen conflicting things one of them said that Angela Lansberry was supposed to play Mary but then it also said that Angela Lansberry was replaced by Judy Dench so I'm not quite sure Mary was the Joan Plow record.

Maybe Judy Dench took the smaller role after that, something? It's possible. That's definitely possible. But Redgrave was definitely supposed to be the Maggie Smith, which definitely fits. If only because she would have referred to Cher's character as a Zionist hoodlum. And, yes, so there's that. Small bunch. One thing I took note of awardsy-wise in terms of Share in this moment,

I want to, I feel like I maybe should have brought this up earlier, but, like, you know, ten at this episode, listeners, just like, go back in time after I've done, whatever, go back. Temporal pincer operation for the beginning of this episode. If I can vary viscerally, because when I saw this list, I was immediately teleported back in time. Somehow I found a way back to 2021. Share in the Belief Tea with Mussolini era. obviously she won like the dance Grammy or whatever. Yes. She was nominated for Record of the Year.

If I can place you in time by her fellow record of the year nominees. This is at the 98 or the 99 Grammys? 98. 98. Well, I guess it would have been 99, but for the year of 98. Right. Because Grammys are all weird in terms of their time frames anyway, but yes. Yes.

Absolutely. The winner is. Rob Thomas and Santana for smooth It is a hot one Man, it is a hot one That is a moment in time, smooth Your other nominees I won it that way

Sure Live in Lovita Loca Yep And no scrubs Wow, this is very much My first year that I downloaded songs from the internet I know that is like

That record of the year lineup is like Napster the playlist. Yes. Very early Napster. Definitely very early college. Live in LaVita Loca. I want it that way. Absolutely. Yep. Yep. That, it really was the year where they were just like,

we have put away guitars for a while. Like I know like even though smooth is like very like Santana is like the guitar god or whatever, but like it was just like, are now a pop music nation, and we need everybody to sort of recognize that. And, like, the Spice Girls had already sort of, you know, paved a lot of that road. And, uh, I guess, who were the, like, who were the, like, 1997 pop sort of ambassadors? It was Spice Girls mostly, I guess Hanson a little bit, but like, it was mostly the Spice Girls. When did Brittany break out? Would that have been 98? 98. I was a freshman in college in the fall of

98. And I remember that was like, Brittany broke out. Backstreet Boys had already had, okay, this is so bizarre. And like, nobody else is going to get this, but whatever. But like, I really differentiate the eras, the micro eras between like, when the pop thing exploded was end of high school, I would see all of these things on the box. Because I remember watching like, um, the box. I think it was like quit playing games with my Heart was the earlier Backstreet Boys song, and that was on the box all the time. All the Spice Girl stuff was on the box. And that's what I watched when I was in high school, because up until the very end of high school, my mom had banned MTV from our house. Like, got it taken off our channel lineup. I know. I missed an entire real world season and the entire year that Jamiriqui became a thing

on MTV. It was like a whole thing. So then I go to college, and I get MTV back. So I hop right back into the real world. And also, then it's Britney and InSink and Ricky Martin and all this. And that is the fall of 1998. And like Marilyn Manson, right? Well, also that Marilyn Manson, corn, which gave way to limp biscuit.

Like, yes, there was, yeah, I say we put away guitars. And what I mean is we just gave the angriest boys possible guitars. and we let them do what they wanted to do with it. And then we allowed Eminem to like, whatever, like drag women by their scalps and whatnot across the floor and found it funny, apparently. What a time to be alive. I know everybody fetishizes the music of their late high school

into college years, but, like, truly what a time for me to be, like, a freshman in college when, like, all of that shit was going on. It's insane. But this is also why I will never get, Brittany the way that people who were 10 when Brittany became a thing, like, it's a whole different animal. Like, I at least had, like, a little perspective and a little detachment.

And I was already 18-year-old college freshman, so I already fancied myself as a bit of a, you know, smarty pants or whatever. So, like, I never, like, I don't fully get people's Britney thing. I still don't fully get it. But I get it more when I realized that, like, these kids were 10. These were little gay boys who were 10 years old who like imprinted like fucking that last twilight movie where the little baby imprints on Taylor Lautner. That's what little gay boys did to Britney Spears when they were 10 years old. It's genuinely the opening chime of baby one more time.

I think it like locked the next like decade for people. That's how like powerful that opening chime is that I think they had some type of scientist. involved that's like what can we do to alter brain frequencies musically right and it was people it was like before they were like had gone through puberty so they didn't really have any like competing impulses in terms of just like they didn't know what their you know sexual deal was back then so it was just sort of like that i'm imprinting on this girl who's doing like awesome cool girl things. And meanwhile, I'm like 18 and staring at Justin Timberlake who's wearing a tank top in the one video. And I'm just like, okay, well, like this is what's happening right now. Okay.

Like, I had a whole different battlefield in front of me. So, you mean Britney Spears is like cousin or whatever from the baby one more time video who's supposed to be her love interest and do it for you? See, I fully don't even remember that. That's the thing. Yeah, I remember that making the video. Her love interest is like her cousin. Amazing. God, what a weird, weird career she's had. Anyway, I love that the Tea with Mussolini episode is the one that we really like went in hard on Britney and Justin Timberlake and Pop of the late 90s. We should do this more.

Listen, in the name of the Grammy's major winner that year, man, it's a hot one. It's a hot one, for sure. Smooth. Good Lord. It's such a... But it's the believe factor, right? Like, of course, like, it's Believe that gets us to this conversation, but, like, believe wasn't heavily rotated on MTV, but it's a global smash. Well, and also, it was on VH1 all day.

Oh, yeah. Like, all, it wasn't, you're right, it wasn't a big MTV hit. MTV was like, they weren't super interested in that at all. They had their, you know, teen shit, and they weren't dealing with, you know, 50-something share at the moment. It's a song about, like, jaded love. Of course teenagers didn't get it. Right. Right.

But it was like, and also I watched, as we know, a lot of VH1 in that era. And like, VH1 fully gave itself over to share that year. The way they gave themselves over to Fleetwood Mac in 1997. So. Yes. God bless you, VH1. Okay. All right.

Now I am officially done talking about music. Okay. Should we move on to the IMDB game? Let's. All right. Explain the IMDB game. game to our listeners. Sure thing. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most

known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles years as a release years as a clue. If that is not enough, it just becomes a free for all of hints. That is the IMDB game. Fantastic. Would you like to give her guests first? Um, I'll guess first. Okay. So for you, I have chosen, one thing we did not mention in discussing Cher and Lily Tomlin is that they are both former co-stars before this movie. They were both in Robert Altman's The Player. Yes. Or is Lily Tomlin in there? I think so. Either way, I was thinking about Share playing Share in The Player. Yes. So I went through the sea of stars who played themselves in the player. Yes. And I pulled out for

you, Mr. Jeff Goldblum. Mr. Jeff Goldblum. That reminds me that I texted you earlier this week, and I said it's an absolute crime that Lily Tomlin isn't in prediporte, because she should be. I know. It's insane that she's not. All right. So you're giving me Jeff Goldblum?

Is that what she said? Jeffrey Goldblum. Jeffrey Goldblum. All right. Well, it seems impossible that the list would not include his two big 90s blockbusters, which were Jurassic Park and Independence Day. Correct and correct. All right.

I'm hesitant to include the lost world in there for now, even though he's probably first building that, so there's a chance but I'm putting a pin in that for the moment.

Now, the question of Thor Ragnar looms large it is recent it is big he was very featured in it but he's still probably a good six to eight rungs down that he's the and credit in that i'm pretty sure but i don't know how they would deal with that on an i mdb cast list okay am i stalling maybe because i'm going to dip back into the 80s for a second and i'm going to guess the fly david kronenberg's The fly. All right.

Spectacular film. No pressure. This could be your third perfect score in a row. Motherfucker. Okay. No pressure, he says. All right. So, Lost World is a possibility.

Ragnarok is a possibility. What am I forgetting, though? From that, like, post-independence day, Jeff Goldblum, like, all of a sudden he's a big major, like, leading man and things. What did that lead to? What did that lead to? All right.

It led to, like, what does he do commercials for? Travelocity or something? You know the voice. Yes. Yeah, something like that, exactly. All right. I'm just going to say, I'm going to downshift, I'm going to play it safe.

I'm going to say the Lost World Jurassic Park. I'm very sorry you have broken your streak. Damn it. All right. No one watches. the lost world? I, well, that's why I was hesitant. It's all, but it's on television a lot.

All of those Jurassic Park News are on television a lot. Yes. Ah. One and three more often than two, but two is still there. All right. Thor Ragner. Three, because they can get the rights real cheap for it. Yeah.

I'm guessing Thor Ragnarok. I am here to ask you to let me guess Thor Ragnar. I am sorry. It is not Thor Ragnarok. You're going to be mad about this one. your year is 2014. Oh, is it Jurassic World? No.

He's not in that one, is he? He's in the one after that for like a scene. I mean, I know that Jurassic World's not very good, but the sequels even worse. And he's in that for like a scene. 2014? 2014. Oh, oh, is it the Grand Budapest Hotel? Secret IMDB Game Heavy Head or the Grand Budapest Hotel.

It is very easy for me to forget that he's in that because so many people are in that movie. Yes. And I didn't like it as much as most people did. Me either. All right. All right. So my streak of three perfect games is broken, but at least I got it in a decent amount of time. Okay.

All right. So for you, I mentioned, of course, the star-studded Franco Zefferelli, Jesus of Nazareth film. And the first actor you went for for that did play Mary Magdalent. And that is Anne Bancroft. And I was like, hey, we've never done Anne Bancroft for the IMDB game before. So why don't we? The legend. May she rest. Yes, may she rest.

Well, the graduate. Yes, the graduate. The Miracle Worker. Yes, the Miracle Worker. Her Oscar win. Agnes of God? No, she was nominated for an Oscar for that, but not Agnes of God. Okay, if you're going to yell at me because nobody watches the lost world, I'm going to yell at you because nobody talks about Agnes of God anymore.

I pulled up, who did I pull up to do a potential IMDB game for you and Agnes of God was there? Well, it's either got to be Jane Fonda or Meg Tilly and I don't know why you would be mean enough to give me Meg Tilly for the IMDB game. Please don't do that in the future. It's the big chill and Agnes of God and then whatever the fuck. Who knows? The Elephant Man. Okay. Yes.

Anyway, we're not doing Megtilly. We're doing Ann Brancroft, not Agnes of God. Elephant Man. Oh, you guessed Elephant Man. I'm sorry, I thought that was Megtilly joint that you were suggesting. No, not the Elephant Man. Damn it. Okay.

What are my years? All right. So your years for Ann Bancroft are 1977 and 1998. 77, the turning point? The turning point. Yeah. Most nominated, non-winning Oscar film of its time. 98, so late stage and Bancroft.

She's somebody's mother in keeping the faith, but I think that's in the 2000s. I believe that is actual 2000. Yes, it is. Oh, wait. She's the, I know what this is. Alfonso Corrance, she is the weird lady in great expectations. She is the weird lady in great expectations. She's what, like, because they changed everybody's name, so she's supposed to be Ms. Havisham, but they changed all the characters' names, right? Because it's Teed.

It's Finn and Estella instead of whoever it is. Yes, it is great expectations. The other one I noticed as I was sort of perusing and bankrupt's thing is I forgot that she, She's the, like, she's like the secretary of, she wouldn't be like the secretary of state, but she's like a senator or whatever in G.I. Jane. She's the one who like, uh, wants to like make hay about, uh, about Jimmy Moore's character in, uh, G.I. Jane. She's sort of the, the politician pulling strings in that movie. Interesting. She didn't make very many 1990s movies, actually. She definitely made how to make an American quilt, because we talked about that. She's really good. She's, in home for the holidays. Jody Foster's home for the holidays. Oh, God. Well, I mean, I always say this whenever I'm like, oh, that, duh, I should have guessed home for the holidays. I probably would have. Also, she's yet another reason why. I keep saying I want to watch Malice again, and I really do. And, like, she's in Malice. So, like, truly, what is my problem? It's probably

because it's not streaming for free anywhere. And, like, it should be. Put, Netflix, put Malice on your lineup challenge. Like, that is, uh, what I'm. I'm saying, or HBO Max, add malice, please. That cast, George C. Scott and Bancroft, B.B. Newworth, Peter Gallagher, Gwyneth Paltrow, and then of course, Bill Pullman, Nicole Kidman, Alec Baldwin. What a great cast. All right. I think that's our episode.

If you want more this had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Joe, where can our listeners find more of you? Hey, you can find me on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. You can also find me on letterboxed as Joe Reed, read-spelled the exact same way. And just like Jesse James,

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No matter how hard I try, you keep pushing me aside and I can break through. No talking to you It's so sad That you're leaving It takes time to believe it But after all It's said and done You're gonna be the lonely one

Oh Do you believe in life after love I can feel something inside me say I really don't I don't think you're strong enough now