This Had Oscar Buzz - 134 – Big Eyes (with Jorge Molina)

Episode Date: March 1, 2021

After years of cast announcements, a biopic of painter Margaret Keane escaped development hell thanks to director Tim Burton and Oscar hopeful Amy Adams with 2014′s Big Eyes. A departure from Burton’s late-career big-budget preexisting IP efforts, the film promised a showcase for Adams that could earn her that elusive Oscar after her previous five … Continue reading "134 – Big Eyes (with Jorge Molina)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. No, I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. Come on, let's have some espresso. What's that? Is that like, Riefer?

You have a lot to learn. What's your name? Margaret. Wouldn't you matter flirt with those girls down there? No, I like you, Margaret. Well, this is all happening, mighty quick. I'm a divorcee with a child. Alder is a blessing.

You're going to love this stuff. Why, they're so big. The eyes are the windows of the soul. That's why I paint them so big. I've always done it that way. Why are you lying? Sadly, people don't buy lady art. The painting says keen. Hello, and welcome to this had Oscar buzz podcast, the only podcast that today we call Elizabeth. Every week on this had Oscar buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always. with my Joan Crawford and the portrait I, perhaps my wife made of her, Joe Reed. You know, Chris, one thing that I always say, and that is exclusive to me, because I'm the only person who ever says this, is the eyes are the windows to the soul. So famously, I did see like a pastel artwork on Instagram that said, the eyes are the window to the soul, end quote, dash Joe Reed. Thank you. I know. I'm excited to be talking about this movie, Chris.

Excited to be talking about this movie. Also excited that, as we were mentioning, right before we got on Mike, wildly our first Amy Adams episode. Somehow. Somehow we've gone 133 previous episodes and never mentioned one of the great queens of not having an Oscar. But as I was saying, before we started, even when she doesn't get nominated her movies do tend to by and large do well with the Oscars where like she's not nominated for her but she's

that movie is still a best picture nominee Enchanted still gets a bunch of nominations Arrival is the best picture nominee like she's a pretty good you know good luck charm there Julian Julia another example Charlie Wilson's war exactly exactly so like

there are options, but this was, this feels appropriate for it to be the first one, because, like, this is her, this had Oscar buzziest role. Absolutely. Like, this was the one where, like, the second you heard that she was making this movie, it's Tim Burton going back into prestige mode that he hadn't really visited since arguably big fish definitely since Ed would and it was like

oh she's playing a real person there's you know everybody everybody sort of penciled this one in as a possibility or at least I certainly did and we we will go into all of those things they are all true for a lot of us

and then the movie you know kind of whiffed when it was when it opened such a whiff such a glorious whiff The wiffiest of the wiffiest holiday season ever at the box office in terms of Oscar. However, there's still something more to be excited about this episode. Probably the most excited thing we should be about for this episode.

We have a guest, and it is you know him as a writer. I'm sure we're also going to talk about the launch of his podcast, just to be nominated. It's Jorge Molina. Hi, hi, guys. Jorge, welcome. Here I am with my big eyes and my big lies. We did send an email before we recorded this that said, Jorge, you are required to bring both your big eyes and your big eyes. And my big lies.

I'm glad that you followed the prompt. Yes. These are not. Not your big little lies. Yeah, no. These are the big lies. Just, just, yeah, unadulterated big lies. Thank you for having me.

I'm so pumped for being here, as I said, as a fan of both. We're so thrilled to have you. And you chose the right. movie too to break the Amy Adams seal and yeah as you informed me right before I did not I was also unaware that this was the first time you talked about it uh which yes it does sound crazy that that this is the first movie but uh yeah it was much like miss pedigrew we are living for a day and that day we get to talk about Amy Adams okay I'm so glad that you uh arrived onto this episode, immediately bringing up the Lana Del Rey song.

Oh, I have things to say about Lana Del Rey and her Oscar journey. Do not worry about that. Okay, maybe we'll bring that back once we get into the Globes' conversation. But welcome to the podcast, Jorge. You have just, as of the time that this is airing, you've just launched just to be nominated if you want to, like, tell our listeners about it. Yes, of course. Yes, this is a foray that I, uh, uh,

podcast that I'm launching myself. It is it's called Just to Be Nominated. It is a scripted series podcast that combines my two biggest loves in life, which are award season and whodunit, classic murder mystery, who done it? And yeah, it's very much inspired by like all time, Agatha Christie, ensemble murders. And it's about

an actress that gets killed the night she wins the Oscar and two a podcast host of an Oscar centered podcast not unlike this one that decide

that their Oscar ponder tree is exactly what the tools they need to figure out who did it so yeah it's about the

dissection of award season through the lens of this genre that is very beloved to my heart I'm very excited

for people to get to listen yeah it's a fantastic ever since you mentioned it to me I've been so thrilled waiting for it to happen so I'm so excited that it is finally

here everybody go listen to Just to be nominated wherever you get your podcast yeah as if this is all the first episode should be out now so star studded too like truly yes we got a real cool cast we got yeah Brendan Scannell

Zach Noit Towers Drew Drogey and what I want to call is the role of a lifetime for him and yeah it's really it's really cool uh and yeah chris uh helped me out like very early on with with this i put together like a little paddle of uh because i created an oscar season from scratch so i needed to like bring the the big cavalry to like help me figure that out and chris was very i'm sure chris's consultancy was uh exorbitant but it was yes i need to cut that check yet but it's basically me as god like putting an entire awesome

season from scratch together. Like, you are speaking truly my love language, my sun, moon, and rising signs. Yeah, so I hope, when I was making it, like, I know we all, like, every writer's like, I want to be, like, appeal to everyone, but I'm like, I just want to appeal to, like, Oscar connoisseurs. Like, if I can get to them, like, I'm well served. So, this is for all of them. Yeah, we made that same calculation. a few years ago, and thus far, it's paid off.

Exactly. So, yeah. We are happily niche as well. Yes. Happily niche. That's on my tombstone. Happily niche would be a great, like, production company name or something like that, right? Happily niche productions.

Yeah. Trademarking that. Nobody steal that one in case we ever want to do something. Let's get on it. Yeah, we will have the screen adaptation of just to be nominated. Please. Exactly. Yes, absolutely.

All right. Happily niche. Happy, happily niche. Productions or Happily Niche Pictures? I like to... Let's do productions, because pictures just limits us to, like, a single medium, and we want to, you know. Happily niche classics gives us a little bit of nice of a respectability sheen. I do like that.

Exactly. Happily niche vantage. I'm filling out the paperwork for the LLC right after we hang up. But yeah, I mean, please take a boss. Once you finish listening to this episode, go and catch up on, because by the time the first episode will be out. So yeah, just, just jump to it. I'll absolutely link it to the Tumblr, and we will be posting about it on our Twitter page as well.

We will. Just to be nominated. So excited for what's going to be unveiled in all of your episodes. Thank you, thank you. So you're our first guest in a minute, and what we always do with our guests, we always want to hear what your Oscar origin story is. Like, what was either the Oscar season or the movie that got you invested in the Oscars? or, like, made you first pay attention to the Oscars? Yeah, of course. I mean, there's, like, a specific season that, like, kind of was it for me. But, like, even beforehand.

And I thought, like, long and hard about this, but it's... I really do think, and this is, like, something in favor of, like, you're born with it. But, like, I just remember very early on just, like, having this incline of, like, this is something I like, and this is something that, you know, it's going to be part of me because I remember like fourth or fifth grade like the teacher gave us an assignment of like just give a presentation on whatever

the hell you want just to like practice your public speaking skills or whatnot and I like without hesitation I'm like the history of the Academy Awards I do not know where that came from I do not know who like inception planted that idea on me maybe it was the gay agenda and like

good for like initiating your Oscar origin story was being conceived exactly when you were to see you were like I don't I think I remember that before I ever remember watching a ceremony but I remember like just like the most random facts like beauty and a piece is the first animated picture animated feature to get a best picture nom or like the two biggest nominees at that point were like Ben Her and Titanic like having those random facts stored in my head I'm like 10 years old um so you know that that was implanted on me early on and then I remember like watching moments but not entire ceremonies like in my head. I remember two very clear ones. I remember Rees Witherspoon winning her Oscar and very random. I remember Lemony's Nick as a series of unfortunate events winning best production design. Winning Best Production Design standing in the aisles. Yes, I don't remember that. I just remember because I was, and still had like a big, a huge Lemony's Naked fan. I was like, that's a movie I like and that movie won, so I feel vindicated. So I remember that.

feeling. That was, I think that was the only year that they tried that particular little. That was one of the academies, let's try and find a way to speed up the Oscars. Yeah. But by which they usually mean, let's get past the below the line awards as quickly as possible, because Joe Schmo at home doesn't give a shit about the best production design. But so that was the one where, like, they literally just like sent a presenter into the middle of the aisle up towards the back.

I think Kate Blanchett was one of them. I think that's probably right. I do remember that was the year that Lemini Snicket won, but that was also the year that Taika Waititi and was it Andrea Arnold also? I think we're both nominated for short film and Andrea Arnold won. Andrew Arnold did win. I don't know if it was that year. I'm pretty sure it was because I'm pretty sure I remember her just like getting up from

her seat and walking half a step to the aisle and making her acceptance speech. And Taika Waititi is, like, definitely in frame at some point during that whole thing. I mean, I'll need to seek that out. Definitely. I don't. I mean, I'm all for, like, the Oscar shaking things up and, like, how things are presented. But that's just awkward. Well, and it's rude to me, too.

It's just like, oh, nobody cares about you. Let's, like, shuffle you off as quickly as possible. Yeah, because, I mean, their thinking was, like, less walking on stage, like, time walking on stage, right? Like, cutting all that time. Sure. Because they put all those people at the back of the theater. which is like when that was announced that they were going to do that of course all of the Oscar freaks were up in arms and like that was so disrespectful blah blah blah but then when the ceremony actual happened the Joe Schmoz who they think that they're serving also thought it was terrible and they got so much blowback for it yeah well like that's the thing is like you take this academy like they're going to close ranks around that kind of thing like the every time they have an idea and their idea is let's short shrift the actual nominee Like, nobody's going to like that because either you are a nominee or you think you will one day be a nominee.

And it's just like, it's, I don't know, it's also, at most, it takes people 30 seconds, 45 seconds to get up to that stage. So, like, take that over the course of maybe, say, like, 10 or 12 categories that are the ones you don't give a shit about. And it's like, okay, so it's another 10 minutes on the Oscars, like, who gives the shit? Well, and it's also, I don't know, I think there's, you can have, like, good, like, in that walk, I like, I like, you know, the announcer, like, gives you the stats of, like, this is a lot of nomination. Or, like, I don't know if the Oscars do this that much, but, like, in the Emmys where they play, like, the theme song of whatever, uh, show just won. Like, you're going to have fun with, like, the walk up to the stage. Um, like, it's not bad air. That is the time when everybody at home checks their little Oscar pool sheets.

Exactly. And makes their little check marks on their list. Like, that is time that is not wasted. That is time well spent. And, you know what? If somebody at home wants to go and use the restroom during best, you know, sound mixing, that is their prerogative as well. If that's got to happen at some point. Also, just walking down the aisle, seeing whoever seated on their way there, how they're reacting to that when, you know, there's a lot of value.

We're living in the age of HD. Like, we can see everybody 10 rows back. We want to be able to do that. Absolutely. Do not give us less opportunities for Oscar reaction shots. Exactly. No, no. Yes. Busy Phillips is in that audience somewhere. We want to see how she is reacting to those.

Yeah, it's a gay where's Waldo at the end of the day. When we all, you know, rewind the moment. That's the kind of stuff we all look for. I know I am not the only one. We've all done this. We've looked at that wide shot of the moment where Moonlight gets announced as the real winner of the 2016 Oscar. And it's that wide shot of everybody in the audience. And it is Where's Waldo where you play. It's like, there's whatever. Michelle Williams, there's Cheryl Boone Isaacs, there is David Oillow, and...

There's Merrill Street, looking into the camera and saying, what the fuck. That's the big, big-ass painting that Margaret King should have painted, you know? Just like that. That is our Last Supper. Truly, that is this generation's last supper. Absolutely true.

Yeah, but so I do remember like these random moments, but the season that kind of like did it for me was the 79th Academy Award. So, like, the once awarding the 06 movies. I remember that being big because, I mean, people don't know. I grew up in Mexico City, with more of Mexico City, and grew up, like, around there, like, all my childhood in. And Teenage Dumb.

So that year was a year that Inari 2 had Babel, Quaron had Children of Men, and Del Toro had Pan's Labyrinth. So when the nominations were announced, like, the Mexican press was just, like, going crazy because, and I remember, like, our version of, like, Entertainment Weekly, which was Cinemania and Cine Premiere, which I also subscribed obsessively. Like, their Oscars issue, the lead story was, like, this year, a Mexican will take it because there were so many movies, you know, by the three amigos. So that was, I don't know, the national excitement for that season kind of just like, I got wrapped around it and I kind of like never let go from that one. So yeah, that was the one, because the issues, those magazines had like either like 20 or 30 pages at the end. I was just Oscar or they had their own separate issue that had all the ballots and the like predictions. and that's when I kind of like really started going in the statistics and predictions and that kind of side of the Oscars. Like I said, yeah, that was the one that kind of like grabbed me and never let me go from then.

I am absolutely going to be hounding eBay to find a copy of this issue of this magazine. I looked for it because I thought I had brought some, like I brought them from home and I looked like at all my boxes here, but they're not here. So they're somewhere in my childhood home. because I did not let them go. That's a great year to sort of unlock you too because there was a ton of excitement around that and it was not only for obviously like you coming from the reaction

from Mexico and all that, but it was also just like this new generation of talent kind of in general also, right? And the fact that like subsequent to that all three of them have won four total best director Oscars since them Like that's pretty rad

Wait no five That day I don't think any of them won Like an Oscar themselves Like I know a bunch of like They won mostly in craft And like I know they're like actual Mexicans did win

But I don't think any of them won that year But yeah It's funny looking back and And see that Oh like Yeah there was that Five year period but like it was the three of them and like vanishes out well and that's an oscar narrative that would carry on for

another decade and a half still yeah where you see them either in like concurrent races or like presenting awards to each other yep yeah so uh yeah so that was yeah i i just got uh the the the the nationalism i swept swept me into the the oscar life that i lead now because it was what it was from 2013 through 2018 they won five out of that six those three won five out of the six best director awards yeah that's amazing it's amazing for them also we should mention our patron saint of this podcast samahyak we would not have her great blessings were it not for that oscar year of course yes that it all started with there at that point i still was not you know waking up at uh right you weren't that in

to watch that. So, but yeah, but yeah, same patron of this podcast and of my household. Yes. So here you are. I'm literally staring at a picture of her in my desk right now. Fantastic. Here you are, though, now Oscar obsessive of many years. And so we asked you to be on the podcast and we said pick a movie and you came back and you said, I want those big eyes.

I want those big eyes and those big lies. Yes. so explain yourself tell us why what made that be the one for you you were so happy that we hadn't done it so I'm like really excited to hear I was so happy you hadn't done it

because I like I responded to you guys like I was just like praying that it was still on that list that you sent me yeah so this movie it's less about the movie itself and more about the people involved with it because Tim Burton was just like such a

I mean, and I, I know this is, like, the most unoriginal take of, like, anyone who loves cinema. But, like, Tim Burton was, like, super influential in crafting, like, my cinematic tastes. And I think, Joe, I think you described it in one of the past episodes that, like, A Tour Cinema 101. Yes, I'm cribbing that one from a friend and past guest of our show Griffin Newman, who said it on his podcast. Got it. When they did their Tim Burton series, it was, yeah, it was basically, like, that's your beginner beginner attour

almost sort of like your training wheels at tour and it's like and as soon as he said that I was just like holy shit yes like that's my experience exactly yeah exactly so that's kind of what I had with it

it was like the first director where I could track a consistent style and themes because you know so vibrant and so identifiable throughout his like early work and I was like and you know as as all of us

were like pretentious Cinephiles at 13 and 14 is like, oh, this is film, you know, this is what cinema looks like. And it was like, oh, it was a little bit dark for 13 years old, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, like, Batman, obviously, like, every, all the, it's very stylized and very, you know, gothic and whatnot. And then Edward Scissorhands is, you know, mysterious and weird and strange. And even like, and it's, it's that thing where, because all his movies not only had this very

identifiable visual style that you could absolutely track through the different movies without having to be, like, really studied in the, you know, finer points of film. Oh, totally. But also, they were very accessible to younger people, right? Like, you were a kid, so you watched peewee, and you watched Beetlejuice, and you watched, you know, the Batman movies and that. So you were, you could be well versed in Tim Burton cinema from, like, a very young age. Oh, exactly.

And there's, I mean, he also has this consistency of the people he was. works with so like you know the movie sound the same looks the same the actors most of them are the same so you know it does give you like this like crash course in filmmaking just like by watching these movies you can start to tell what a Danny Elfman score sounds like you could see what like a Bo Welch

set sort of looked like or he would he would hop between you know Stan Winston and who's the other makeup guy whose name I'm forgetting now but anyway I'm gonna kick myself

I also think the thing about Tim Burton too he kind of because he never really got arrested with Oscar for like the movies that are his good ones probably for like snobby

reasons it makes like some of us who are or shall we say used to be fans of his like feel not like a grudging sense but like you know like a rallying point

yeah no totally it's like where were you when you know because I do think like there is a widespread appreciation for his earlier films that I don't know if you know existed when you know they came out

in the larger like not just craft but storytelling and mood and whatnot and also I mean I do want to mention like Mexicans in particular are obsessed with Tim Burton's filmography. I don't know if it's like the relation with like Day of the Dead and like the Goth. But like it's like the Beetlejuice kind of made that resonate from the beginning maybe. Yeah, I mean, it's Beagle Juice, but it's, I mean, it's, I mean, and I don't, I know we say like,

Nightmare before Christmas is not a Tim Burton film, but it is a Tim Burton film. Yeah. You know, like that and Edward Cisorhands and. And, like, all that imagery, like, it's, like, I don't know. It's so, like, Mexicans really respond to him and they, like, love him. So that was also just, like, very, I don't know, because, again, I didn't grow up because I don't know what the relationship with him is as a culture. But, and back home, he's, like, very revered. So that's also a big part of it.

Yeah, I feel like it. So, sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead, go ahead. I was just going to say, and I feel like in America. it was he was definitely somebody who he was you know a filmmaker a lot of people talked about but he was always seen as like Tim Burton the outsider Tim Burton the persona who you know Edward said he sort of looks like Edward Cisorhands right with the hair and whatever and so I think that was a lot of what his kind of reputation was among at least mainstream cinema press

which was you know Tim Burton the sort of like outsider weirdo which is the thing that tracks through the movies that see like the quote unquote like more serious Tim Burton movies which like this movie and Ed Wood obviously twin together very well because of the screenwriters Scott Alexander and Larry Kerosuski

wrote them both and they're both about artists whose work is not respected or even like is of questionable quality which I find fascinating that like Right. Like, both of those movies seem very tied to what the Tim Burton persona is. And yet Tim Burton didn't write either one of them. And like, they're both essentially projects that came to him. And yet they seem so tailored to his story. Yeah, it's also super interesting that he's not a writer, that he's just, you know, a director. And yet all of his, at least early films and like they are also thematically.

Yeah. Well, like, even the ones that don't feel like, even like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, it's about like outsider Willie Wonka who, you know, had to create a chocolate factory because his, you know, father didn't want him to eat candy. And the Alice in Wonderland movie has become like very much about these like these outsider tales. And so you're right. It's very interesting that he is not a writer-director and yet there's still such a

strong thematic through line. It's not just stylistic. It's like really like his back. Batman movies, especially returns, becomes about this sort of Tim Burton-esque outsider character. Oh, yeah, the villains. The writer-director thing, I think, is interesting in terms of maybe why he never actually gets embraced by, like, the critical establishment or, like, the prestige establishment with, like, Oscar.

But I also think that, like, you have this combination of, yes, it's the, like, weirdo outsider. his movies all have like a dark undercurrent to them or a dark like you know design to them but it's also that he was a populist and I think that like his movies are all very popular especially like the first decade of his career in that like when you have that combination it allowed people while he's doing his best work

to view him somewhat snobbishly and I think now we still kind of a lot of people view him snobbishly because he's really leaned into the populist side and it feels like we haven't gotten, you know, the true Tim Burton movie we've wanted since, like, Sweeney Todd?

Yeah, that's like my cutoff point kind of. Yeah, I mean, and this kind of ties to like why I picked this movie because I, um, yeah, so my, when I was kind of having my Oscar you know

Awakenings you can say it was kind of like tied up the same time where like his his like pedigree was like going down you know it was like around Sweeney Todd and and I mean I don't have to go into this but like I was in Wonderland

is one of the most disappointing movies I have ever seen in my life because of how hype I was for it and just how poorly delivered it was my first like big disappointment of like oh this is you know what happened to you um and and yeah and when this was announced it was like oh he's like pulling back he's like uh uh like kind of letting go this like big studio kind of like

like uh yeah a like shiny thing that he had been doing for if he was and like oh maybe he can like pull back uh uh and come like strip down and go back to basics it wasn't a remake it wasn't pre-existing IP it was like it was an original screenplay that was like based on a real person and real people but it was nothing that had been like published before or anything like that. So it felt like there was a lot of promise and a lot

of hope to this movie. Yeah. And like we said he like reuniting with the Ed Wood screenwriters and you know Amy Adams which I'm sure we'll talk about you know so like all of these pieces just kind of like came together and you know we got what we got

but yeah. Yeah. So this This was, this was like a beacon of hope in my, you know, Team Burton journey, you know, which at the end ended up being, you know, you know, I, I think there's a lot of salvageable things about this movie, but I don't think we have gotten back, like, completely. No.

No. The Tim Burton that I think we, the three of us all, like, were, like, rooting for in this way because of the outsider thing. Like, I think that Tim Burton is, unfortunately. unfortunately gone. The reasons I'm sure we'll get into. But maybe we should move on to the 60-second plot description. Yes.

All right. So, guys, we are here to talk about Big Eyes, directed by the aforementioned Tim Burton, written by Scott Alexander and Larry Karazuski. I will have some things to say about that. Starring the Divine Amy Adams, Christoph Waltz, Danny Houston, Kristen Ritter, Jason Schwartzman, Terence Stamp. The movie premiered, I'd remember it as premiering at AFI. They did the premiere for this movie through LACMA on the night of AFI closing, which is interesting.

Yeah, that's very pointed. And, like, definitely went into the kind of, like, poor initial reactions for the movie that made it have its underwhelming debut. on wide release on Christmas Day 2014. Jorge, you are our guest. We have tasked you to do the 60-second plot description for the motion picture. Big Eyes. Are you ready for the time? I'm as ready as I will ever be, so let's do it.

All right, if you are ready, your 60-second plot description for Big Eyes starts now. Okay, so Amy Adams plays a woman named Margaret, who when we, open. She's leaving her awful for her husband. She leaves the suburbs to San Francisco in the 50s. And because she's a woman, she can't work or do anything. She can only paint. And she paints these children who all have the titular big eyes. She goes to the park on weekends to do portraits. That's where she meets, she meets Christop Waltz, who's this painter called Walter Keen, who approaches her and they start flirting and they hit it off. And she, in order to keep custody of her child decides to marry him

for custody, then they decide to rent space in order to showcase their paintings when people approaches her and he takes credit for all of her paintings, then this also noble becomes an international movement in which she's kept inside to paint as he takes credit for all of it. Then after

a big commission for the welfare, that is destroyed by a critic, they have a fight in which she discovered that he has actually not a painter. She moves to Hawaii and asks for a divorce. He will only give it. And that's time. Wow. that's like we do not even get to cross-examining himself

dreadful movie ruining courtroom scenes yes yeah the cross the examining himself part yes oh my god all right so let's we should let's let's just lay it out here right at the beginning there's a lot

lacking about this movie it's tough to say that one element ruins it I think there would be problems no matter what But, like, Christoph Valtz does his damn best to ruin this movie, right? At every turn, but especially in the final act of the movie. Yes. Yeah, Christoph Valtz is incredibly miscast in this movie.

Incredibly. The whole point of the beginning of it is, like, you have to believe that she would be drawn to him in some way. He's, like, the most, like, he's the least charming person I've ever seen in my life. this movie. And it's just like, and it like absolutely strains grudity that she would have like been drawn to him, even if she did need like, you know, security and, you know, she, you know, had a moment where she needed to have a husband in order to sort of get by or whatever. But like, it just, it makes no sense. And so then his like, his turn into like, insidious villainy down to like super villainy by the end where he's literally like Cobra

commander launching a nuclear assault on her life by the end. And it's like, it just, there's no arc to it because it's just like, oh, he looks like frickin, you know, Dirk Dastardly or whatever from the, from the opening moments that he's in the thing. It's like they have no chemistry together. Not at all. Which I don't feel like is Amy Adams's fault. It's definitely like, and like maybe it's not Christoph Waltz's fault because he is so miscast.

but then like the other dominant trait of him is this like uber grifter like con man yeah who like waltz's performance leans into it so hard and like leans into it harder and harder and harder as the movie goes on that it's like ghoulish at a certain point totally yeah and i'm i wonder how much this is like crystal waltz his persona coming to bite him in the ass in the end, you know? Right. Because it's, yeah, from the very, like,

from that scene in the park where he just approaches her and, like, they start talking, like, I'm just expecting him to, like, just be polishing a dagger on the back of his, you know, as he's talking to her. Like, this is, like, yeah, I don't buy why she fell in love with him in the beginning at all.

And I think this is, you know, I think, in glorious bastards was both the best gift and the biggest curse for Walt's career and that you know we

just a villainy of that role just like it's bleeding into everything or at least for me everything else he's done that when I when you know

the movie asked me to to buy him as someone that you know will be as charming and will that it based on his charm that, like, why this woman will stay with him for, like, security and whatnot?

Like, I'm just not, like, um... Well, and also that he could deceive everyone else, too. It's not just Margaret. It's not just the way he treats Margaret. But, like, we also have to believe that, like, people would conceive that he painted these poems... Yeah. These paintings beyond just, like, societal misogyny, right? Totally.

Yeah. And it... It's not just that he isn't charming in a relationship. It's that we don't. feel like the art community ultimately being charmed by him or the people that buy him because one thing I do think is interesting about the movie is that it kind of draws these distinctions between the art community who's always seen him as a con

con man or this like weird like you know lamprey on the side of the art community and like when the work actually takes off it's more populous tastes right yeah and that it It's more profitable than it is seen as good art, right? But it's very profitable. That's even like the Andy Warhol quote about how, you know, if it wouldn't, if it weren't great, people wouldn't like it so much. And so it's, it's Warhol sort of being a little bit cheeky and just being, you know, well, you know, it's good because it's, it's marketable because it's profitable. Yeah.

I wonder in terms of like the miscastness of Walt, and I know that like him being older than her, Walter being older than Margaret is part of the story, both in that that was real life, but also that, you know, he's a kind of, you know, paternalistic, domineering, condescending figure to her. But, like, somebody like you and McGregor aged, you know, 10 years up or something like that is sort of more what I feel like this role needs, right? Somebody who can be initially very charming, very, very, oh, Jumadi's an interesting angle, too. but just somebody who can be initially charming and then who that charm you sort of like start to see where it fray's on the edges. My thinking of this was like a Matt Mickelson kind of person, you know? Oh, yeah, yes.

Because I think, you know, I don't know, sexual charisma could also be a lot of helpful in this. Also that. Yeah. Yeah, because I actually don't have too much trouble like buying the skeevy like real terrestrial. side of the character from Crystal Falls, you know, but I feel that's because that's supposed to feel like like weasily.

Yes. But yeah, the balance with the like, quote unquote, softer side that he needs to buy is like completely off. And while I think that the courtroom scene is like wildly entertaining, uh, and like as a scene of itself,

it's amusing to watch. Like, it's just like almost entirely because, Because James Saito is so funny as the judge, I feel like. I think all of his reactions, I think, are very funny. That at least sort of like saves that for me. Oh, yeah, but totally. But, yeah, but in context with the movie, and this is something I got a kind of an issue I had with the movie in itself.

And, like, it seems a lot of, like, individual scenes that do not seem to, like, string well together. Right. No, agree. Yeah. Yeah. And the, like, not, it's, I think on an. individual scene basis, the tone is not right from scene to scene, but then the like story arc

has real like, I guess, I don't want to say story building, but like, what is the arc of this movie? It feels very flatline for most of it. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I don't know if that's Tim Burton being in like a reactionary mode to like the type of films he was making. reception he received for those movies. Right. In that, like, he's trying to be low-key so much that it becomes just way undercooked as a movie. Yeah, it feels, it feels so restrained in not the good way, you know? Yeah.

Because I think there's, like, glimpses that I think if he had leaned into them, would, like, elevated the movie so much. Like, I wanted more of, like, you know, the supermarket scene. I love that supermarket scene with, you know, seeing the big eyes everywhere and just leaning into either surrealism or like magical realism aspect of the story. If it had leaned more into that, I think it would have added like a complete different layer to the story. That's the thing. That's the sort of kernel of what's really interesting about this story is that the sort of outer layer of the story is that she's a white. whose husband is usurping her talents and her creative output and is claiming them as his own,

and she's got to find her way out from under that. But the thing that's really interesting as, like, not exactly a meta-narrative, but, like, as a complicating thing is, like, is the stuff about the fact that, like, even with the work as her own, it's not supposed to be great artwork. Like, we're supposed to, we're rooting for her because it is hers, and it's her work, but, like, the fact that the outside world really stands firm and never really comes around on the fact that they, that the outside world and the art world especially does not respect this work and thinks this work is pretty trashy, or at least like, or overly sentimental or aggressively, you know, mediocre or whatever, like, this is, I thought the Tarrant stamp character is really interesting. I was like, oh, this is the first time I've, I can think of where a critic has been written into a film where he's, like, he's, like, like he's not wrong. Like he's not bitter or like he holds stands to his guns and you're just sort of just

like, yeah, like he's not being intimidated by Christoph Waltz. And you almost like not exactly root for him, but like you respect that critic character at the end. And it did remind me a lot of, like, uh, there's, there's a moment when, uh, like Christoph Waltz blows up at him where it feels like the movie wants to have a certain comment that I think is really interesting that this movie is coming from Tim Burton, that part of our perception of what art is can come from who we think the authorial voice is for that work, right? And so for a moment, you kind of question

if that critic, specifically the Terence Stamp one, or, you know, the audience that despises this work, if part of that perception is because they hate Christoph Waltz so much. So, but that would be, like, I wish the movie then, if that's the case, would have gone into that then. If the idea is that, like, oh, if we knew that this was Margaret Keane's work, we might have appreciated it more.

That's an interesting take, too. That's the version of the movie that I want it to be, and I think it drops that thought in there, but it doesn't expound on it. It's not, like, the primary idea. Oh, yeah. There are so many. accesses the story with. Yeah, I think by far the most interesting about the movies, like, the thematic kernels

of drops that never really, like, blossom. Yeah. I think the movie has very interesting ideas about authorship and, you know, ownership and credit and, you know, what is the value of art and whatever that are hinted at, but never fully, like, explore. Well, and it obviously, it makes me think of Ed Wood so much. You think of with Ed Wood, where that was also a story about how somebody's, you know, passion and, you know, pride in their work still comes to something that is not objectively not good, but it's sort of like widely seen as bad, as like not of good quality. And yet in Ed Wood, that is also part of the kind of poetry of, you know, his filmmaking and his world is so-called.

You know, ironically, because it's in black and white. But, like, his, everybody around him, he's got all these sort of, like, interesting characters and people around him. And his, that story is so vibrant because of that. And there's a, there's a flatness at the center of big eyes that doesn't hold up. Yeah, I was going to mention, yeah, because I rewatch Ed Wood before watching this just because it had been, like, such a long time. And I just wanted to, to refresh myself on that. Yeah, the thing that kind of jumps out at me the most is, and this is kind of like a pivot to the Amy Adams character, is that, you know, in Ed Wood, it's so palpable the love that Ed Wood has for the thing he's making, even if it's considered on the outside as, you know, bad. But you can, you understand, like, his love and his emotional investment in what it means to him.

and I'm lacking that completely for Margaret Keane like I don't understand why she's so invested or like what these paintings mean to her um yeah or like what's what's the emotional stakes for her at this is it's like um right like yeah intellectually I understand that it's hers and like she wants you know the the recognition that she uh deserves and whatnot

but like I like I never understood why she loves to paint or like why she loves to paint that like know those big guys even like there's that scene where like Crystal Valtz is making up like why he would have painted those you know that right right and I'm like that's more that makes more sense that whatever you're saying that Margaret is painting

for but that's the movie is so fascinated like the movie is kind of animated by that question of like the movie keeps asking her why do you do this and he asks her that on a couple occasions and sometimes she says the thing about the eyes being the windows to the soul and sometimes she sort of just like looks at her

daughter and whatever and she the movie never really answers that question and maybe the idea is that there is no answer. But what's fascinating about that is that all of those times that Walter needs to come up with his own like faky fake reason. And they're all these very like, oh, my, I had sisters and my, you know, my mother took care of me and all this kind of like grafting false biographical details on it. And that's really interesting because that flips back into what we were saying about Burton earlier. where people keep sort of grafting this authorial tie to Burton in his stories,

when, again, he's not the one writing these stories. He's only coming to this as a director, and yet everybody is trying to be like, oh, Edward Cisorhands is basically about Tim Burton as a child, or like, you know, Pee Wee Herman is a very Tim Burton-esque character, or Edward, or Willie Wonka, or all these things. And I thought that could have been, I mean, maybe that's just sort of like for us to just like because we know so much about this

and that's almost like an Easter egg for us but like it did seem like the movie has these really interesting things to say about what we expect from creators and how much of like their own story is put into it but again it just like lays flat here and doesn't really go anywhere

because I still feel the movie like it's trying to tell us that Margaret paints for something or like there's a reason behind it because I do think it would have been really interesting of like we got the impression that she doesn't know what

like why she's painting but I do think the movie's trying to like give us some perception of emotional depth from her and Amy Adams was really good at doing that yeah but it would have it would have been really interesting to to be like oh she doesn't know why she's painting but like the movie doesn't even address

that like she's just like yeah she paints she cares but like because kind of thing you know honestly like the thing that like I think it is closest to doing that still would be really interesting as like her like her the only philosophy we get from her is that quote the eyes or the window to the soul and like you do see a progression of her work that like what the movie includes of her work throughout the story as she's basically like locked in a tower to paint because he demands her to right you do see like the shift in her psyche and her emotional state through the paintings that she's doing. and like it does it feels even more like a missed opportunity because it's right there to at least say if she doesn't know why she's painting them they are within you know this what some people are calling kitsch they are a reflection of where she is at at different points for life right and it feels like it even misses that yeah well right we're like to the point where when she becomes this sort of like you said like locked in a tower left to paint that is when her muse sort of takes her to to these different types of figures, right? She doesn't want to paint the big-eyed wafes anymore. She wants to paint these sort of slender-faced, sad women.

And obviously, that feels very thematically tied to all this. I want to quickly, though, sort of bring us outside of the realm of the movie and talk about this as a, you know, cultural entity and an Oscar entity. Because I... Yes. When this... Had a long, long... life of different castings.

Right. So I had no idea. Chris, you put that in the outline, and I was, I guess I hadn't heard these updates on it. The first I'd ever really heard about this movie was they announced it as the Burton, Amy Adams, Christoph Waltz thing. But this. Because Burton actually came on to the movie late. Right.

I don't remember of any directors being attached, but the initial casting that was for it. Well, no, that's not true because Alexander and Karasuski were going to initially direct it. And that was set up with Kate Hudson and Thomas Hayden Church, who I'm not sure about Kate Hudson, but like Thomas Hayden Church looks remarkably like Walter Key. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the initial one. That like fell off the map for a few years. I think it was one of those situations that it was like about to start filming within a few weeks and fell apart.

Eventually attached Reese Witherspoon and Ryan Reynolds. Yeah, that's the cast. I remember hearing about that cast. And I remember being very excited to have... Because I think at that point, Tim Burton had was attached to direct because I remember thinking, like being very excited

to have Reese Witherspoon in a Tim Burton project. Yeah, that would have been amazing. Yeah, because she's sort of like the anti-Timberton woman, you know? She's like everything that Timberton leading ladies is not. You know, there's like blonde, bubbly, suburb of perfect. Right. There's nothing

sort of gawthy about her. Yeah, and I would have loved to see not like not Rees Witherspoon play a Tim Burton character, but like see what Tim Burton could do with a Reese Witherspoon persona kind of character. Yeah. Yeah. So I hope that happens at some point.

But yeah, I remember being excited about that. And the Ryan Reynolds... Well, but the Ryan Reynolds thing is interesting. He's way too young, obviously, you end up casting Christoph Valtz because, like, Ryan Reynolds, I don't know their actual ages, but like Ryan Reynolds, uh, projects as younger than Reese Witherspoon on like a maturity level at least. So like, yeah, that dynamic is a fair.

I also fear we would have just gotten Deadpool as Walter Keene, you know, the, the very Ryan Reynolds brand of humor. But he does have that ability. I mean, we did get a superhero villain. I don't know what you're like, we did. We did. But he does that. He does have that ability to be initially. charming in a way that wears away steadily, in a way that like that to me at least on a persona wise, this is why I sort of say like you and McGregor, like a

an older, with more gravitas type, but that, you know, who can at least, Ryan Reynolds would at least have made me buy that somebody would have initially been drawn to him for some reason or another. I found him charming. Right, right, right. The thing about these casting announcements, though,

like the casting history of this movie is that it said it up in, like, our minds as an potential Oscar property before even Tim Burton, um, got involved, right? Like, and then it just kind of evolves into this other thing of like Tim Burton and that never awarded narrative, um, that he has with like people like us Oscar obsessives. Yeah. Well, and even the fact that it was Alexander and Karzowski, who I know, Chris, you are not

fans of, but they have, they've had a good touch with, uh, screenplays about real-life people who the movies about them have had Oscar's success, where they did, Ed Wood, we've said, they did the screenplay for the people versus Larry Flint, which was a best actor, best director nominee for that year. They did the screenplay for Man on the Moon, which came close to getting Jim Carrey an Oscar nomination. He obviously won a Golden Globe for that. And then Dolomite is my name, which was their most recent one, which got a golden

Globe nomination for Eddie Murphy probably should have got him an Oscar nomination. I thought he was great in that. And then obviously on television, their big success is they wrote the American Crime Story season one, the O.J. Simpson season, which was like, for Ryan Murphy. Hugely acclaimed. And they were, for as much as every time a review of that season was like, I can't believe Ryan Murphy, a Ryan Murphy show isn't like going off of the rails in the back half or whatever. And I think they got a lot of the credit for being sort of the anchor that held that thing together when Ryan Murphy's reputation is always like, you know, it starts off well, and then he loses the plot somewhere along the line. And so, like, that was obviously a huge success for them. So, like, they do have an ability to sort of seek out these really fascinating people and to tell their story in a way that feels very ready to.

ready to work with people like Milosch Foreman and Timberman and Ryan Murphy My issue with them as screenwriters though, because there's other projects besides these like biopic ones but like they're known for their biopic movies You mean Asian Cody Banks is not a biopic?

No. Do you mean that darn cat remake didn't do it for you? Is that what you're saying? Well, I mean, it did indeed. Christina Ricci. Speaking of big guys. All of their biopic movies like

it was their script was my issue with Dolomite. It's my major issue with people versus Larry Flint where it's like all of their movies are the same movie no matter who their like subject is like I think Ed Wood is the one

that transcends it the most but like Dolomide is my name is it's very much Edward also right and like I think I think that's the thing that I I do really like that movie, but the thing that held me back was their script of it. And, like, I think Ed Wood is not the case of this, but, like, the further they've kind of gone on in these, like, biopic careers is, like, the things that are interesting or the things that are edgy about some of the people that they are depicting that they're telling the story of, the fact that they structure things so, like, similarly, where it's like you can just fit these story blocks in the same emotional beats.

it like takes away what is so interesting about these people or what is like subversive about some of these people um yeah their scripts usually just try me crazy this movie was no exception yeah this movie suffers from uh that a lot and um the fact that they do tend to work with these autours does feel like it it helps them out a great deal in that regard and so So when the casting turnaround happens again, and then all of a sudden we move into Burton's there, Amy is there, this is going to be sort of the next upcoming movie. This is where it becomes, you know, shows up on my radar. And we should also say that at some point in this transition before, or like right before Tim Burton coming on, it also became a Weinstein co. Right.

Right. And yeah, we'll talk about that in a second. Which is like partly why I think we could blame the. Christoph Walt's casting happening on that because I yes that makes sense to me he already has his two Oscars including one he's a Weinstein company guy yep yep yep exactly but so this gets announced for as a Tim Burton movie and the second I saw that Tim Burton is making a movie called Big Eyes like a portion of my brain exploded because I was just like for so many years I was like that is the Tim Burton I said this in these exact terms I'm like

Like, Tim Burton's weird thing with actresses with, like, little tiny faces and big giant eyes. And it's like he's, that's been his dominant, it's like Winona Ryder, Christina Ricci, Bella Heathcote in Dark Shadows. It's just like that's sort of his, like, gothic archetype. You know what I mean? The three of us are kind of projecting this whole thing on him of like, maybe he's attached to this movie because he's the misunderstood populous artist and if you ask Tim Burton he's like no I just I just like big eyes I just like big eyes

and the fact that this was a project that existed He read the cover page and was like stole right but the fact that this was a project that not only existed before him as a movie but like existed in real life decades before that there was somebody out there who was as obsessed with

girls with big eyes as much as he was. I do have to mention because I was reading a bunch about the movie before and I mean it does say like Tim Burton you know loved Margaret Keenan was like an avid collector

of her artwork and he even had like portraits of Lisa Marie when he was dating her commission and a portrait of Helena Bonham Carter commissioned which if you Google it it's iconic

if any art auctioneer can point me to that one I am ready to bid on it I need it hanging on my house She probably doesn't want it anymore Because they're separated So, you know, just My new, when I'm rich thing

Is I'm going to buy that Margaret King portrait Of Helen and Bonn-McCarter That would be a great statement piece to have Yeah, oh yeah Or the, and the Joan Crawford, I would buy out of my own Or the Joan Crawford thing, right The fact that there were so many

celebrities who wanted their portrait painted by Margaret Keene in that style, which is amazing. Like, Joan Crawford's already somewhat of a larger-than-life figure. Yes, it is. But so, then, so this project then,

again, we talked about it, it felt like a back-to-basics for Burton. It also felt like maybe this is the moment for Amy Adams. And it's funny that we thought about it that way now because in retrospect it's like as much as tim burton's movies have had success with oscars it's never been in acting categories like even something like big fish like ed would as the exception of course martinlando wins the oscar um so good so good but like even something like big fish

which had buzz for albert finney and you know possibly i think before people saw it people were thinking maybe jessica lang maybe you and mcgregor um but albert finney got like precursor stuff but like that never quite happened. So, but then I think we all sort of talked ourselves into the fact that like Amy Adams is in a back-to-basics, Tim Burton, like, sew this one up. She's got it, y'all. And it very aggressively did not happen. Are the only two- I actually looked at, sorry.

Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, are the only two acting nominations from Burton films are like Martin Lando and Johnny Depp for Sweeney Todd? Yeah. They indeed are. I actually looked into it too. If you guys were to guess, what was the most amount of nominations a Tim Burton movie has ever received? So Sweeney would have gotten actor, probably production design, probably costume, perhaps makeup, but it's not like, yeah, maybe Tweeney Todd with four would be my next. Yeah, my guess was four, too, yeah.

It's actually three. three Tim Burton movies have received three nominations the ceiling for Tim Burton movies getting nominated Yeah Can you guess what those three movies are? Is Sweeney Todd one of them?

Sweeney Todd is one of them Alice in Wonderland Unfortunately is also one of them You're totally right In orderland has two Oscars Yeah because that Oscar had that They put the little mad hat or hat on the Oscar The production of them

Is the third one, Edward? It is not. No, that one had two. I think Edward Sitzrehans only had makeup, but I'm not sure. Yeah. Edward Sizzarhands did only have makeup. And I think even, like, the first Batman had, like, just production design or something like that. It won for production design and had no other nominations.

is it um is it like sleepy hollow it is indeed sleepy hollow that's of course right because Lubeski got nominated for cinematography and then I imagine costumes and production design right I believe so I didn't write

or maybe visual effects win was for but it does have a win as well yeah maybe visual effects for the headless horseman actually now that I think about it I no because that was a real actor that was Ray Park oh well then there's probably some where it's visual effects, but it's, uh, I'm pretty sure that's Ray Park that did the

headless horseman. I will say the costume design and production design of big eyes was pretty stellar. I, I agree. Yeah, they got that sort of, um, garrish, California, um, we just came into money kind of a house thing. Oh, that house, I love that house. I'm like, I'm ready to move in that house. I would absolutely like rent that house for a weekend, uh, for, uh, for,

for a vacation or something. Yeah, absolutely. A long weekend, yeah. But yeah, you think about the, the thing about the early Tim Burton's is he does, we do sort of look at him as like, oh, he was an outsider. It took him to until, until Edward to like get respect or whatever.

But like, almost all of his movies have gotten something. We're like, Beetlejuice, I think, one for best makeup. Beetlejuice won for makeup. You mentioned the Batman thing in, what did I say, production design? Mm-hmm. Edward Scissorhands got something. A nomination for makeup.

Batman Returns, I think, also got production design. Two nominations. Production design and costumes? Let me look it up. I don't believe it's costumes. I think it's like makeup and sound. Of course. Yeah, those Batman movies.

The fact that the first Batman movie didn't get a sound nomination is also kind of wild. Was that still when sound would have been a special award? That's maybe true. You're right. You're right. And of course, Big Fish famously we can't do was this had Oscar Buzz movie because the Danny Elfman score got nominated.

Which Danny Elthman, it took forever to get Danny Elfman nominated, if I'm correct. Yes. I think that's right. That was one of the big narratives of Big Fish. No, Batman Returns was visual effects and makeup. up. So nothing for the costumes for that fantastic black leather catwoman, cat suit. Like, my God.

Usually you think of, like, when a costume, when a movie makes its costume design part of the narrative, usually that's a boost, right? Because it, like, it shines that little spotlight on that fact. And the fact that, like, you know, she, you know, sews together and staples together her little costume, you would have think that would have thought that, would have put it over the edge, but I guess they weren't prepared. Hollywood wasn't prepared. By the way, is Art Direction, which also was Sweeney Todd's Oscar.

Yes, I do remember Twinny Todd winning that. Burton really does sort of hook up with the Ace craft people. I think we mentioned this a little bit earlier where it's like, it's Danny Elfman, it's Colleen Atwood, it's Dante

Ferretti, it's Beau Welch, we mentioned. Oh, it's Rick Baker's the other makeup person who I couldn't think of besides Stan Winston, but he's worked with both of them. He's not exclusive to anyone with the maybe exception of Colleen Atwood. I feel like Colleen Atwood does all of his costumes, but it could be wrong. But he just like he works with the best of the best in those craft categories. And I think that helps him with getting craft nominations for almost all of his stuff. Yeah, I think that's where his like animation

background really comes into play. Ah, that's a good point. That's a real good point. The Burton movies with no nominations are Mars attacks, Planet of the Apes. Planet of the Apes is the only Burton I've never seen. It may be. That was the first time where I was like, oh no, we're losing Tim Burton. Yeah, that was the warning sign. That was the big warning sign.

I remember Planet of the Apes was such a fraught production. I remember reading an entertainment weekly that it was like they didn't finish the movie until a week before it got this massive wide release. Wow, are the cats of its time. I was going to say, it's weird that you could see Judy Dench's wristwatch in the shot.

Before Judy Dench in Digital Fur Technology was Helen a Bonham Carter. You know, and Burton did want to have all of the apes butt holes. Release the butthole cut of Planet of the Apes. They do have a butthole cut of Planet of the Apes. and it's Mark Wahlberg, so that's fine. Oh, you know, we love to see people who commit hate crimes naked.

I don't know. No, I just meant that he's a butthole. Oh, yes, yes, exactly. He is the butthole. He is the butthole kind of the bottle of. Yes. Also not nominated by Tim Burton, Dark Shadows. Shut up, y'all.

I had fun at Dark Shadows. It's kind of fun. I agree. Helen of Bottom Carter is having a game. goddamn blast in that movie. I will say that. Like, she's just having a good old time. Underwhelming as a reuniting

with Michelle. Of course. Of course it is. Yes. Miss Peregrine's home for peculiar children. It is Yeah. What do we think about that? Like, the fact that like, Eva Green

can make anything entertaining or fascinating to watch or whatever, except for movies she makes with Tim Burton. I feel so bad for Evergreen, because, like, she's the Burton girl in turn, and she's just getting the worst end of the deal, you know?

She really is. She, like, uh, it's the wrong time to be hitched to that wagon. Yeah, exactly. Well, Miss Peregrine and Dumbo are the only Tim Burton's I haven't seen, and I truly am like, I could just watch them and say I've seen every Tim Burton movie, but like, as

like you were saying, Jorge, as someone who grew up loving, Tim Burton, it really does kind of crush a piece of my soul to see where we've come. Yeah, well, and it's, I mean, Dumbo specific, like, Joe, have you seen Dumbo?

Okay, here's my thing. I know I've seen some of Dumbo. I fired it up on Disney Plus. I don't know if I ever finished it. Understandable. Which was the fate of Artemis Fowl as well on Disney Plus, where I definitely started it, and I don't think

I finished it. Dumbo is interesting also because it's like the whole theme of it is about how this like again outsider of an elephant outsider elephant yeah gets swallowed by this like theme park conglomerate like that's literally the the plot of it um so it's just hard not to read like Tim Burton's personal like production history into these kind of things can't believe Dumbo decided to direct a Willy Wonka movie that's crazy yeah so it's so yeah so it's all about like this this animal like losing its spirit because it's being like exploited by this corporation um so it's interesting on that end i i don't think either of them either uh miss uh it's miss peregrine right not miss peregrine yeah peregrine like miss peregrine like miss peregrine or dumber are like i don't know i think they're interesting watches is anything to see just like oh he how he got there uh miss peregrine was one of the those movies that I went and saw at the theater when I think it was home for a reason, so I went to my hometown theater over, I want to say Thanksgiving, because I don't think it was a Christmas

shopping day. Well, that's sort of my tendency, but I don't think it was, maybe it was in the second run theater by Christmas. I think that might have actually been it. And it was my Christmas, my Christmas shopping movie. So, yeah. Alas. So that was one of those things where it's like, my expectations were just like, oh,

just is this movie a thing that I can sit? in front of after I've been like shopping for a couple of hours yes okay then then that works that's fine and I guess we should also mention that like it's his next project was announced which is the um the Netflix series the Wednesday Adams Netflix series oh you guys oh boy yeah from like and it had this whole the announcement has this whole like world built around it like of course Wednesday going to this academy and doing study and this. We all know that. We all know that Wednesday Adams went to a weird kids boarding school and solved crimes. Like, yeah. It's, it's the, the point at which we're at in terms of finding recognizable IP

and burrowing down into like a morsel of it to, uh, to have something new, quote unquote new, to say a new angle on that or whatever. It's to the point where like, it's, I, kept, I sat in front of my computer, this is so sad to admit, I was like, trying to craft a tweet that would be like a sarcastic, like, oh, I can't wait for X, like, micro character from like, you know, whatever, like the third guy from the Lollipop Guild and the Wizard of Oz or whatever. But anything that I could think of, I was like, no, that's too plausible. No, that's probably already in the works. Like, there is, like, we've passed to the point of parody where like, even the most. insane-sounding thing is just like, no, they'll probably do that. Yeah. I will say

I am... Yeah, don't give them free ideas. Excited is too much. I am intrigued to see Burton in the TV landscape. Um, because I do think one of the things of dark shadows is that it felt very I mean, I guess piloty is a good word. Like, it felt

like it could have been like a world expansion for it. So I'm excited to, I'm getting excited. I'm intrigued to see what he does with like long-term storytelling um and i'm also just holding like casting announcements um because i mean if if if if there's like a reunion with like winona michel or katherine o'hara like playing right right morticia like i'll go to it blindly and like i'm into that got over it no totally um yeah yeah i i i talk a big game but like i i'm you know i'm a sucker as much as everybody else i'll do it uh the the thing about the

pilot, you mentioned, made me think of, am I the only one of the three of us who ever watched the Beetlejuice cartoon series? I want to say, Nicola. No, I did. I love that. I remember, I remember it. I, and, like, being on TV, I don't actively, like, engaged with it, but I

It was, it was fine. I watched all of it, probably. I don't remember a ton about it other than the fact of it. I watched it, but, like, every time I think back on it, it's so strange, because at the end of Beetlejuice, if you want to say, oh, this leaves us, with a lot of possibilities. She's living with Barbara and Adam.

They have, you know, this odd little, like, family situation at home. There's everything to do with, like, the other side and the handbook of the deceased and all that. All these, like, possibilities lay before you as a possibility of continuing the Beetlejuice universe. And then what the Beetlejuice cartoon decided to do was, what if Beetlejuice and Lydia were pals who, like, got into scrapes? And it's like, okay, but you saw them. movie where he tried to, like, force her into child marriage. So, like, that's an odd little, like, that's your springboard. And I get that if you're making a Beetlejuice cartoon, you kind of have to have Beetlejuice in it as your, you know, main character. I get that

that's a challenge. But, like, it was just so weird that, like, those were the only two crossover characters, and they were, like, they were, like, Penny and her dog from Inspector Gadget. You know what I mean? It was like that kind of a thing. It was weird. And there's also been this endless conversation about a Bealgeuse 2, you know? Yeah, it's not his IMD still. Yeah, I mean, I just, I want a Winona Ryder Renaissance. Like, we desperately need it. I'll take a Beatles, too, if that means getting her back into the spotlight.

But, you know, she's down for it. All the interviews are like, I'm down for it, but, you know. we will see we haven't talked about amy adams yeah let's do that it's our first amy adams we got to give her uh so at this point the the fever the the fever was high for getting amy adams that oscar she was coming off of american hustle which it feels like the the perception of that evolved of that performance really evolved from people were ready to sort of throw her out with the bathwater with that movie where some people liked it

the New York Film's Critic Circle certainly seemed to enjoy it and Oscar voters did and all that but I think a lot of the critical reception to it was like ugh like that's I don't like that and she was sort of like lumped in there with Jennifer Lawrence and Christian Bale

and all these others and then I think a lot of people myself included sort of starting to come around and it's like but maybe Amy Adams is great in this? She's incredible in it, I think. I think she's the reason that movie has a thesis. I think that's right. I think that's absolutely right.

She certainly is the strongest sort of gateway character in that. My thing with American Hustle is everybody has their own who's the best and who's the worst in American Hustle, and nobody has the same too. It's like fingerprints. It's like everybody's sort of best and worst. And it's very telling, whereas, like, some people think that Christian Bale is the best one, something people think that Bradley Cooper is the best one. I am very much a Amy Adams best

and Christian Bale worst with Jennifer Lawrence as second worst, but like there's the science oven scene, and I love the science of it scenes or whatever. I really like Jennifer Lawrence. American Hossel is a movie I have seen once, and I have no interest in

revisit again. But Amy Adams is, I do, that's my takeout. Like, oh, that's she's the best part. And I enjoy, Jennifer Lawrence a lot but again I my memories of it are like what eight years removed so yeah we've been a while Chris who are your best and worst from American Hustle I think I'm probably also best Amy worst Christian Bale I mean Louis CK is also in that movie so we can all maybe put him as our worst and feel fine about ourselves I mean maybe my number two is

Louis CK or sorry Bobby De Niro who both of them are just like Like, fully just stunt cameos. Right. I don't even remember what De Niro does in that. You know who else with that? He's at the poker table. Right. I kind of like Renner in that movie.

And I really like Elizabeth Rome in that movie. I was going to say Elizabeth Rome's probably my second favorite. Yeah. She's good. She fully earned getting that role upgrade when they made joy. And they're just like, okay, well, we're going to make you like fourth lead or whatever. Okay. So with Amy Adams, though, and still not having her Oscar after six nominations now, the thing that I feel, like, it's, I think Big Eyes is maybe the biggest reason that it's so surprising that a rival, that she wasn't nominated for it, because, like, there's a lot of Oscar history, like, even people like share, where it's like, you know,

You don't get nominated for something when you're maybe sixth or seventh, and I think that Amy Adams probably was sixth or seventh, depending on how far Jennifer Aniston actually did get with Oscar voters this year. I'm not so sure. The cake year. This is the cake year. It is the cake year. Listen to our episode on cake.

Is that usually it can catapult the person for whatever the next one could be, especially if the next one is really good. And for whatever reason, maybe people thought, forgot about big eyes that quickly, which is probably true. It's plausible. Yeah. But like not getting nominated for big eyes didn't help her in any way for a rival. The thing about arrival, though, is because a rival was sci-fi and was like, I know it's a much more human story than like, but it's like it is science. fiction, and it was anticipated as such, when people only really knew it as a project coming

down the line. Denny Villeneuve had a little bit of an Oscar push through with Sicario, because Sicario got a couple nominations, right? And on Sundays, I believe, was a... Right. But he hadn't gotten to the point where he is kind of now, where even a project like Dune, which is heavy sci-fi, like very, very heavy sci-fi, is now part of the the Oscar conversation because Danny Villeneuve is seen as an Oscar director. And he wasn't there

yet. A rival got him there, but he wasn't there yet. And so, if Arrival had come in a year like 2014, where the Julianne Moore of it all coalesced later. And it took a while. That wasn't on anyone's map until the Toronto premiere. And so if Arrival happens in 2014 instead of big eyes, where all of a sudden, by the time it took to like about mid to late November before, people

had really just figured out that like, oh, Arrival isn't just like a science fiction movie that people, you know, are going out to see, but like this is real substantial, fantastic A-list top tier stuff. And by that point,

Emma Stone had really, really locked up lead in that category. And it was really tough to dislodge her from that. And so because of that, then the Amy Adams thing is allowed to sort of become one of the also-rans. And there isn't that urgency to it. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense? I think we also kind of forget, too, that with the exception of probably only Junebug, like Amy Adams has never really been close to winning. Like, she was definitely second place for American Hustle, but, like, she was, uh, Kate Blanchett was miles ahead of her in terms of yeah, likelihood to win. I think she was probably second place for Vice, but like, not particularly

close. Close, yeah. Again, Regina King miles ahead of her. Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's, well, and in two out of these, she's nominated against co-stars, so which, you know, can't help that we've said before that we both think she should have won for the fighter that she deserved to win that Oscar if anybody from that movie was going to win it should have been her

she is the best part of the fighter yes these days it feels like there's that tendency where especially now you've gotten somebody who's gotten a lot of nominations like this and when is she going to win one and it's easy to sort of kick that can down the road

and be like well she'll be back next time And we don't have to give it to her for Vice. We don't really love this performance in Vice. You know, we love her. We love Amy Adams. But, like, it's not like there's an urgency to give her performance as Lynn Cheney an Oscar. And she'll be back with, she'll have another project, if not next year, then the year after. So we'll kick that can down the road.

And that's how somebody ends up with six, seven, eight. That's how Glenn Close happened. That's how you get a Glenn Close. Yeah, that's how we end with Glenn Close. winning for Hillbilly. Right, because you kick that can far enough down the road and Memaw picks it up and it's all over. There's still the outside chance that Amy Adams is like

8th place this year. Oh, she could show up in the 5th. I think she stands, I think she's like fifth or sixth place right now. She's like dangling on that corner. I think she's dangling on that precipice. Who's ahead of her for sure? Who's definitely ahead of her?

I would say Andrea Day. I would say Michelle Pfeiffer. If Michelle Pfeiffer wins the Golden Globe, while Oscar voting, or right before Oscar voting happens, Michelle Pfeiffer is getting nominated. I think Amy Adams is definitely currently ahead of Michelle Pfeiffer in that pecking order right now. And I think Andrea Day is probably going to end up ahead of her, but she's still, like, that movie is just getting seen now.

Like, I think. Which is, I mean, for her performance, the level of performance she gives, I think that's probably a good thing. I do. Maybe. But like, but who's, but so who's like, who's the five? Who are the five nominees that you think? I mean, I think the first four are pretty locked up.

It is Carrie Mulligan, Violet Davis, Francis. Frances Kirby, and Francis McDormand. And then everyone else is competing for that fifth spot right now. Who knows? Maybe we'll be wrong and like Vanessa Kirby does not win or does not get nominated. I think currently Amy is no worse than sixth. Okay.

I'm just, I'm preparing everybody. That's what I'm doing. I am the neutral Terminator in this fight. just saying. I do think that because I think Glenn Close is pretty strong and probably winning, if that maybe helps carry Amy Adams to a nomination, we've seen stranger things than that. Yes, we have. Yes, we have. Yep.

So this is always, the speculation, I get asked this every once in a while because people I know I'm an Oscar nerd and they ask me Oscar nerd questions and they're like what kind of a movie, what will it take for Amy Adams to win an Oscar? And that's always such an odd question because I'm just like, it really can come in any form. It's all circumstantial. It's all about like, you know, what will hit. And so, and I think Big Eyes was one of those things where, oh, she'll win for playing a real person.

And it's just like, well, you know, that was a real person. I don't think it's sad at this point because half of her nominations are for her playing real people. right um or not half of them is it half of them it's just the two it's anyway i think well the american hustle thing is always very squishy right because that's based on a true story but all the characters are in some way or another faked up yeah almost half if she gets nominated for hillbilly elegy i think the thing that'll take is a movie that treats amy adams like she's a movie That's what I was going to say, because, yeah, all of, I'm just reading at her nominations, and, like, in, like, all of them, she is not the performer of the movie, neither of them, like, and none of them, actually. Like, she's the other part of an ensemble or, like, a supporting character.

So, yeah, I agree that it has to be, like, where she's a movie star, and she's, like, front and center, kind of like. I mean, like, I don't see anyone ever winning for Enchanted, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if Enchance. happened five years later. I mean, yeah, I've always said, and I'm, that would have been why Oscar win for A.B. Adams, I think that's her best performance. It's an enchanted. Yeah. I think that's the best case scenario there. I, um, my soul has been murdered by the Trump era. And so I have become something of a pessimist at times. I think the other side of that coin is it'll be for something not necessarily he'll be. She's not going to win for Hillbilliology, but like, it'll be for something that makes us mad. It'll be for something that we're just like, oh, like, really, after all this time, after all loving Amy Adams, it'll be something that we bitch about.

The fact that everybody loved Laura Dern for that long and then decided they were going to get bitchy about marriage story in which she's good, like, if not great, I think she's great. I think at worst, she's good. And the fact that everybody got so pissed off about that, like when Amy Adams eventually wins the Oscar, like, everyone's just going to be furious. Everybody's going to, you know, the public opinion's going to go negative on her so fast.

It's just, like, I guarantee it. Yeah, no, that is the other option. Yeah. Sorry, again, I don't mean to be the Humberger. You know what? She should have played Tanya Harding, and that would have been her Oscar.

Oh, true. Yeah, true. I mean, well, okay, so Amy Adams, wins the Golden Globe for comedy or musical this movie. She certainly does win a comedy or musical globe for a movie that is neither a comedy or musical. Also this was like a back-to-back win, right? Yes, because she had won the previous year for, was it enchanted? No, it's American Hustle. Another movie that is neither a musical

nor a comedy. I mean, it depends on your perspective on comedy. That's Right, because she didn't win for Enchanted because that was the year of the non-broadcast. That lineup of her nominated for Enchanted is like an all-timer for me. Absolutely. I'm trying to remember it off the top of my head. It's her. Marion Cotillard wins, obviously. Mickey Blonsky.

Heleney Blonsky. Heleney. And Elliot Page for Juneau. And Elliot Page for Juneau. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Fantastic. That's like half of the Oscar lineup, no?

You're saying it's a better lineup than Helen Mirren for the 100-foot journey, Julianne Moore for Maps to the Stars, Kavanajanei Wallace for Annie and Emily Blunt for Into the Woods. You're saying that's better than that. Okay, but here's the thing. Emily Blunt and the Globes with musicals is always like, if Emily Blunt can't win the globe for a musical performance, it is not, it is like the sign that she's not getting nominated for yet, because, like, that was the thing with Into the Woods.

that was the thing with Mary Poppins. The Golden Globes are Natalie Portman-style besotted with Emily Blunt, and sometimes that is good in that they'll nominate her for the Devil Where's Prada, which is good and just and, you know, the universe approved.

And sometimes that will mean, you know, she's not bad in Into the Woods. I think she's good. I think she's one of the better parts of Into the Woods. I don't love that Into the Woods, but like, that nomination was always going to happen. So, like, you know, I was fine with it. Mary Poppins was one of, Mary Poppins Returns was one of those movies I really wanted to like.

And I walked out of there and I'd be like, Emily Blunt is good. And then it was just like, and the more I think about it, I'm just like, she's not bad. But like, the only thing I will still stick up for in Mary Poppins Returns is Merrill Streep, which I will stand by the fact that that was. Absolutely not. That is Merrill Street. Will you stand like upside down in your roof? Yes, I will. I am currently now upside down in my living room standing.

Merrill Street and Mary Poppins returns. I'm not giving that one up. I'm sticking by that one. That, I enjoyed that movie a lot and then gave me hope that like Mary Poppins will become like 007 and that it's a title that's passed along to like different actresses.

Ben Wichaw's already in it. Yeah, you're kind of halfway there. Cast this for us. Who is the next Mary Poppins? Oh, um, Gugumbatha Ra. Yes. Amazing. I love that. I love that for her and for us.

Yeah, exactly. And she deserves better than the role she got in the Beauty and the Beast, monstrosity. For sure. Plumet. I will say, I always say whatever that movie is. That movie does give us Adra McDonald's the final frame of the movie. So, you know, if anything. Yeah.

I also should say, I like the 100-foot journey. Lassa Halstrom's The 100-foot Journey. think that Helen Mirren's performance reaches the level of deserves an awards nomination. But like, it's the Golden Globes. And if they're going to give something to a movie that hardly anybody saw, I was happy that it was

the 100 foot journey. You say the globes are besotted with Emily Blunt. They're besotted with Helen. Well, they definitely are. You, the person, you should know this better than anybody, noted Leasers seeker predicted. That's right. My finest moment predicting Helen Mirren

for the Ledger's. Did she? Was her nomination for woman in gold a globe or was that sag that was sag that was sag yeah sag double nominee the woman in gold and trumbo yeah oh jesus man dynamo um i famously it's also nominated christoph vaults yeah in musical or comedy that went to michael keaton for birdman uh nominated also bill mary for st vincent wakene phoenix for inherent vice and should have been oscar nominated ray finds for grand budapest at the fact that the grand budd Pest Hotel got like 95 Oscar nominations and none of them were for Ray Fines is absolutely baffling

to me still. Speaking of a movie that you and I do not like but we do love him in it. I don't love it. I've only seen it the one time. I've been anxious to see it again. I remember the first time I saw it left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm just like it felt remember how like four year consideration was like Christopher Guest being like had

soured a little bit. And that's sort of what Grand Budapest felt like. I was just like This feels like, I like my Wes Anderson with a little more, I know this sounds insane to say, but like a little more whimsy than what we got. And like, Grand Budapest Hotel just seemed like kind of like mean and violent at its core. And I was just like, okay, I don't know if that's why I come to Western. I like that. I think all the attention that Grand Budapest Hotel got should have gone to Moonrise Kingdom, my favorite, West Anderson. Yeah, I mean, speaking of, you know, directors with wincical visual styles.

Oh, yeah, Wes Anderson is in a lot of ways a kind of cracked mirror continuation of Tim Burton, right? Where it's like, again, anuteur style that you can pick up on very easily. Like, it's very... Which sounds like a backhanded compliment, but I don't mean it as such. But it's just like it's, it's, you know, it's very easy to key in on what is a Wes Anderson style. Oh, totally. No, it reminds me of this tweet. And, you know, we had come to a moment where I bring up Aba.

I'm sorry, guys. Yes, final. Oh, no, you were contractually obligated to do so. But I saw this tweet where it's like, Aba is the son and Fleetwood Mac is the moon. And it feels like Tim Burton is the moon and Wes Anderson is the son, you know? Yeah, that same energy for me. Yeah, for sure. Excuse me.

Yeah. I think we can at least rest easy with the fact that Christoph Valtz was probably the fifth out of five for that. golden globe category like yeah yes i i rewatched the speech uh before this and uh the only thing amy adams just stated at him is like you're very charismatic your wife is a very lucky lady and uh i'm like okay she's so nice yeah if that's the best thing you can find uh to say about him i'm guessing it was not the easiest ride too uh i'm glad amy gets her you know has her golden globes trophies. And it's fascinating to me the actors who don't have, like, she has Oscar's success in terms of nominations, but not wins, obviously. But the actors who the Golden Globes just love

and the Oscars are just like not feeling it the same way. I was prepping for an article about the Globes earlier. And Donald Sutherland is nominated this year for The Undoing. It's like his ninth Golden Globe nomination. He's won twice before, both. of them for television movies, for HBO TV movies. But, like, famously never Oscar nominated or whatever. But, like, the Globes fucking love them. Like, just, it's... Guys, we did it for Christopher Plummer.

We can do it for Donald Sutherland, too. Oh, yeah, make it happen. Late in Life Oscar Dynamo. Make that happen. Playing gay, why not? I always said that Donald Sutherland should have got nominated for Pride and Prejudice the year that Kieran Knightley did. I agree.

He was so good in that. Good performing. all right the thing about amy adams that makes me say that she is sixth place and jennifer aniston was not is she was also bafton nominated it's the oscar lineup and she has marian co teard's slot right right right yeah the Weinstein company that was a weird year for them where it seemed going into that year that big eyes was going to be a big priority for them then the imitation game hits at toronto wins people's choice there and that becomes That's the horse now that they are writing, and they did write it successfully all the way to a bunch of nominations, including Best Picture and Director, and a screenplay win.

And the imitation game is, like, the only thing that really landed with Oscar during that Christmas release window, because, like, Big Eyes never even cracks the top 10 of the box office and, like, leaves theaters very quickly. But, like, that was the Christmas that it was, like, into the woods, unbroken, the Hobbit. and like imitation game expanded wide and did well over Christmas and like that was probably the best time for that movie how it looked with its chances with Oscar

and then that campaign was so dreadful oh honor what is it honor the man honor the film honor the computer honor the computer it's so like that film for

I think that film succeeds on a very specific level, which is that as a kind of thriller, not like, you know what I mean? The suspense and excitement parts of it where can they break the code or whatever, all is done very, very well, and I think is a very interesting and fun movie. It's everything about the Turing character and the way that it treats sort of his sexuality, his place in history, all this sort of stuff is so objectionable and awful

that it just sours me entirely on everything that I do think at its for what it is trying to do it does pretty well but it should be trying to do so much more given this person, you know,

this real life person. I'll say that without the imitation game I don't know if we would have gotten to your coffee's Alan Turing Runway look, so if anything for that, I am grateful. We give thanks that it gave us that. I'm doing the keyboard movement right now. We cannot also overlook, as we said at the top, Lana Del Rey's near miss in original song.

She was Globe nominated in Critics' Choice for From Big Eyes, Big Eyes. Here's my theory, and I want to float this by the both of you. That song is a troll, right? Like, that song on her part is she's like, I wonder if they'll like, I'll just send this to them as a goof. And they'll probably be like, what the hell, like, take another pass at this. And they just accept it. The fact that she says, oh, you want me to write a song for big eyes? Okay, how about with your big eyes and your big lies?

And she's like snickering in the corner. And they're like, yes. printed. I utterly did not remember the song before watching the movie again and when I was like, oh there's a Lana Del Rey song called Big Eyes in this. I bet the lyrics are

with your big eyes telling big lies. And when... It's not even that sophisticated. She doesn't even go on to that level. You did a better version than that. Yeah. You at least gave it a little bit of like a little bit of flare. She was just like big eyes, big lies. Like

whatever. it's so First of all I can't believe you didn't remember from the time because like I feel like that was all over my Twitter feed which people just being like with your big eyes and your big lies it's so and the fact that they play it in the movie it's just it's so laughing Oh yeah it's the only like

like song with lyric that plays throughout the entire movie And because her style is so like self-consciously melodramatic anyway It makes it even funnier Like it just absolutely sounds like a troll Like, she's really just having a lot. Oh, totally.

I do remember when this song came out, I was just like, okay, finally, let's, like, because one of my biggest disappointments in Oscar snobs of my lifetime is Lana Delray not getting a nomination for a young and beautiful. Which was the year before this, for Great Gatsby. Yes, for Great Gatsby. So I'm like, fine, let's she'll get redeemed. Like, let's do it. and it unfortunately did not pay through.

Yeah, this is just me wanting to mention young and beautiful, which what I think is a perfect movie song. Lana Del Rey is not my thing, and I think in 2013 I was feeling pretty bratty about that fact. So, like, I was very, like, out front and just being like, thank God she didn't get nominated for the Great Gatsby just to, like, annoy my friends who liked her. So I probably have...

It's also so well used in the movie, like, when it comes. Like, I think it's a great usage of all. Well, and the other thing was 2014 was the year of Zavio Dolan's mommy, which ends with Born to Die over the final moments of that movie and into the credits, which is a fantastic use of Lana Del Rey in a movie. This was really like, this was, you know, this was a moment for, people liking to use her stuff in movies which makes sense her stuff is very as I said like

self-consciously melodramatic which is cinematic yeah yeah because I'm thinking right now like she's done quite a because she has young and beautiful she has uh this one she has that I really like that cover of Once Upon a Dream that she does in Maleficent um oh right and she has like a cover of season of the witch in that um what was that movie that came out last year or like the year before which was a Diltoro production. Was it Justco Season of the Witch? I don't remember. Oh, was it from with the house, with the

bloody snow in the house? What is that movie called? I think so. Crimson Peak? No, no, no. It wasn't. It's not a Diltora directed movie. He produced it. He produced it. Let me see. Season of the Witch was a Nicholas Cage movie.

Oh, I saw that shit in theater, too. It's from the movie. It's from the movie. Scary Story. we tell in the dark. Oh, sure. Which was Del Toro produced because, I remember that because, like, Lano Del Rey was one of the people that presented Guillermo Del Toro with his Hollywood star in the walk. Wow.

Which is one of the most random things ever. Yeah, so that's why I remember it. But, yeah, I guess they're pals. I don't know. Sure. Why not? That's really funny. Listen, all I'm saying is if had she been nominated for Big Eyes with Your Big Lies,

it wouldn't have been the first best original song written exclusively on colorful refrigerator magnet letters for toddlers. It wouldn't be the first. It's true. There have been probably a few. I agree with that. What ended up winning that year? 2014? This is the Selma year, so it would be.

Common. Got it. Yeah. Yeah, can't dispute that. Can't dispute that. Common and John Legend. That was the year that also the Feral song was such a big deal, right? That was that same year?

Yeah, happy. Where Lepida Nongo dance. No, that's a different year. Is it? That would have been, yeah, if it was Lupita, then it would have been a different year. Well, my memory is shot. All we really hold on to is the good original song nominees. It's all we have to hold on to sometimes

From certain things, yeah Hold on, let me look that up Because now it's going to book me Okay, so this is the Globes Lineup for original song, obviously John Legend in common Lana Del Rey For Annie, there is a Sia song nominated

Not Sia. Oh, this was the Sia year This is one of the Sia years. The real Sia year was 2016, but this was like a little bit of a preview. Oh, we need to know what wasn't store for us regarding C and the Globes. Darren Aronofsky was nominated with,

Darren Aronovsky's Noah, I should say, was nominated for a Patty Smith song. And then from Mockingjay Part 1, a Lord song was nominated at the Globes. Oh, that was a pretty good song. I remember the Lord's song from Mocking Jay. That was good. Those 100 game songs got a bunch of Golden Glob now.

Oh, yeah, the Taylor one, I think also did. Yeah. Yeah. The Oscars, you mentioned Glory for a common and John Legend. You were right. The Farrell song from Dispicable Me Too was the year before that was 2013. But 2014 was the Lego movie, everything is awesome, and yet the Lego movie didn't get an animated feature nomination, which was like super bizarre. Beyond the Lights, speaking of Guguma Bothera, Diane Warren's song. The Rita Orra performance of the Diane Warren song, which, I like Stockholm syndromed my way into enjoying that because like I love that movie and I love Diane Warren and I don't know. I do find myself listening to Grateful Every Once in a Blue Moon. Begin Again, which I loved and Lost Stars, which I loved. Also a wine scene movie. Fantastic.

I remember that movie getting like a lot of really like mean snobby reviews at Sundance that year and I'm like, well, I guess it's bad. And then when I saw it, I was just like, what the fuck? are you people talking about. This movie is a joy and a treasure, and I love it very much. And then, of course, the requisite documentary song nomination for the Glenn Campbell movie, Glenn Campbell, I'll be me, which we truly have gotten, like, a documentary nomination every year going back. Yeah. Like, for probably the entire 2010s. This year is going to be all docs. It really is.

Nothing but docs. It is. I forget if the lineup would even allow for it. The shortlist is out there. Oh, God. The shortlist. That cursed shortlist. Poor Taylor Swift.

They really just hate her. The Academy really does just hate her. Yeah, they don't like her. We should get into the IMDB game in a second, but I want to just real quickly. My theory, well, I did write down the one bit of dialogue I wrote down in my notes was early on when she's talking to Kristen Ritter. and Kristen Ritteris says something about espresso

and Amy Adam goes Espresso, what is that? Like, Reefer? And Christian Ritter just goes, you have a lot to learn And I was just like, this is such... It's in the trailer. That's in a trailer, I readwatched the trailer. It's so funny. All of the like moments, all of the big eyes

and the big moments from the movie are all in the trailer. Like, they save nothing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean... The other note I had about this was this would have been a great drunk history episode rather than a movie.

I feel like, right? Who would tell the drunk history? Amy Adams. They would still get. I was thinking like a Kristen Schall or something like that would have been perfect for something like this, but yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, get Tristan Schall and still have Amy Adams and Crystal Ball. Kristen Schall, Amy Adams can act it out.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. The drunk narrator. Yes, I like that. Okay, perfect. Yeah, I'm glad you brought out Christian Rader because I just wanted to mention how she and Jason Schrolet Schwartman are the most Tim Burton-esque people, and they are both so incredibly wasted. Kristen Ritter deserves to have a Tim Burton movie all to herself.

Oh, totally, 100%. They're bringing exactly the right, like, fizzy energy to the movie, too, and there's just not enough of that. Yeah, oh, Jason Schwartman was on set for four hours and got his, like, day check and was out. But, yeah, I mean, they both fit the Tim Burton. aesthetic so well. As did the girl they cast to play the older version of the daughter when all of a sudden

that daughter got older and I'm just like, oh my God, they found a big-eyes girl to play her big-eyed daughter. Because we looked her up after watching me and my roommate. She is the best friend in the To All the Boys movie. So if you are fans of the To All the Boys franchise, she is in it.

I had to look her up to make sure that she wasn't Belle Pauley because, like, she looks a lot like what a younger Belle Pauley would look like. Bell Pauley, who would also be a classic Tim Burton, big-eyed actress. And also, I mean, we didn't mention him at all because there's a reason for it. But like, what a nothing character Danny Houston is in this. Oh, my God. To narrate the whole thing.

That narration is like, why does this narration exist? Like, why? It's the most forgettable thing of all time. It's so strange. All right. Do we think, I guess as like the button, how do, we haven't really talked about Amy Adams' actual performance in this movie. Um. Because I think she's good.

I think. I think it's just like, it asks so little of her. Yeah. And, like, her choices are so understated. And, like, that's part of the movie's problem. Totally. That, like, if it was a less understated movie, it would probably register more. Yeah.

I think she's really good at play. at playing the moment. Like, I feel like every moment and every scene she does is very grounded and she kind of gives it emotional depth. I think the problem is with the script and that the arc for a character doesn't make sense. So even if she's

good in the individual scenes giving, like, each moment it's due. Like, it doesn't make sense as a whole performance. It does feel like the dominant choice she decided to make in this movie as she was just going to play Margaret as sad. And it was just like, okay, well, fine. Like, that doesn't really do anything for the movie.

Yeah. She wore the hell out of those wigs, though. Yes. She did. Oh, my God. Should we move on to the IMDB? Yeah, why don't we? Let's do it.

Joseph explain the IMDB game to our listening. I shall. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, we mention that up front.

After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release here. So it's a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That's the IMDB game. Jorge, you are our guest, so we will start with you, and we will let you decide if you want to give or guess first, but we will also let you decide if you want to give to me or to Joe. Sure.

I will give to Joe first. Okay. Great. Cool. So my person, I went the... Tim Burton Rout. I don't think I mentioned this, but perhaps, I don't know my favorite, but a Tim Burton movie that's very close to my heart is Big Fish.

And an actress that I first noticed, her first, like, notice ever for me was in Big Fish. So I'm going to give you, thank you love, thank you life, Miss Marion Cotillard. The first thing I had ever seen her in as well was Big Fish. All right I don't think Big Fish will be one of them however Is one of them Lavianrose?

Lovey and Rose, correct? All right. Is one of them The Dark Night Rises? Incorrect, no. It is an iconic death scene. For fabulous death acting in that movie made it ineligible.

Oh, but I do think it's the other, Nolan. I think Inception is probably one of them. Correct. Inception. Okay. Marion, where are you going next? I'm as uncertain about her as I am about her views on 9-11. Famous 9-11

Is one of them nine? Unfortunately, it is not. I so wish it would be, but no. So now I give you years, right? Yeah. Your two years are 2012 and 2014. Oh, 2014, same year as Big Eyes. All right, so the question here is,

is it the movie that all the film Twitter nerds wanted her to get nominated for? which was the immigrant, or the one that she did get nominated for, which was two days one night. Is it that the immigrant was Weinstein and the Weinstein Company just wouldn't push it? Was that the deal?

Exactly that. That was the whole thing. Everybody was all pissed off about that. Right. They did nothing for it. I'm going to guess... And they waited like a year to release it after Cannes. Yeah. Yes.

Honestly, I was whatever with that movie. I was fine with that. I liked two days one night better, so I'm going to guess two days one night, also because that was her Oscar nomination. Yes, two days one night. All right. Correct.

And what was the other year? 2012. Oh, Rust and Bone. Rust and Bone. The whale movie, yes. Yes. The movie where she does stuff with Katie Perry's fine. Yes, that's right.

Oh, my God. True. All right, that's a good, that's a good, no, for for Marione. That's a very already known for, I feel like. It's sort of like bypassed a couple of more commercial stuff. Yeah, I think, yeah, three of them are non-English performances, so.

Yeah. All right. So I give to Chris, right? Indeed, you do, and I will be giving to Horace. All right, Chris, you're going to be mad at me for this one, but I'm just going to, we're going to power through it. We mentioned this person very briefly a little bit ago, not too long ago, about

his role in big eyes. By the way, I need to just acknowledge the fact that every time I say big eyes in my head, I think of Richard Lawson's tweet about Penny Marshall going to buy tickets for big guys and saying big guys. Give me two for big guys. So shout out to Richard. That is never leaving my brain ever.

Yeah. Give me two for big guys. Okay. I am giving you, though. I'm not giving you Penny Marshall, unfortunately. That would have been really good. I'm giving you Danny Houston. Danny Houston.

All right. So. You know the memorable roles of Danny Houston's career. Right, right, right. How dare you? I mean, it's okay. There has to be something fucking annoying that you do to me every episode. Yes, this is it.

I will take it as this. I'm not going to say that big guys or big guys is in it. I'm going to say birth. No, even though that should be one of them. Cool. All right. Other Danny Houston movies. Literally one of these I remember him being in.

These are all four movies that, like, you've heard of for sure. But like only one of them I actually remember him being in. Great. This is going to go very well. 30 days of night. No, also should be probably. one of them. All right. So your years are... Is this the first time in how long that we didn't get, we immediately got too long? Oh, for two. All right. Your years are 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2009. My hint to you

is that three of these were Oscar nominated for performances that were not him. Performances that were not. Him? Oh, okay. Okay, so 03, 04, 05, and please don't tell me, 06. 09, 09. Okay. So Oscar nominated performances of that year, of those years. He's in the Aviator. That's one of them, aviator, correct?

Cool. He's in, what are like big ensembles? He's always in huge ensembles. He's not in Cold Mountain. These are both, like, middle ensembles. They're not huge ensembles, but, like, there's, you know, a good handful in both of them. What are British or, like, co-British movies? Gosford Park's O2, and I don't think he's in that.

He's in the Constant Gardner? Yep, that's one of them, Constant Gardner. Cool. So that's your 04 and 05. That leaves. and 2009. Can I ask which year is not Oscar nominated? 2009.

2009 is a universally acknowledged worst of a franchise. Okay. I feel at least. Have I seen this franchise? You've definitely seen some of this franchise. I don't think you like this franchise. Is it an X-Men movie? It is.

Can I get it just like saying it's the next? Okay, 09. 09 would have been, I think Last Stand is before this. Last stand is 06. So it's one of the Wolverines. Yes, it is X-Men Origins Wolverine. Wolverine.

I hate you. So now you're only left with, yes, it's Terrible. Nobody likes that movie. The Wolverine Origins movie that leaked online, like two weeks before it happened, and it was a print with, like, terrible CGI in it. Oh, I didn't see that. But that probably better than this, than what turned out to be, yeah. All right.

O3, mid-ensemble. He's not in Mystic River. I will say the director of this movie was referenced on, our, in our discussion, like, towards the beginning of our discussion. Yes. Yes, yes. Is he in 21 grams? He is in 21 grams.

He is in 21 grams. Weird. Yes. Weird and wild. I apologize for putting you through that, but you did very well at it. I'll never forgive you. Moving right along, Jorge, for you, I have somebody that we have referenced multiple times in this episode because they were,

a nominee in the year we were discussing, but also was potentially going to originally play Margaret, who am I talking about, I am talking about, Ms. Reese Witherspoon. Oh, that's good. No television. No television. And no voice work. Let's not forget the Sing movies. I believe she is Monsters v. Aliens.

She is Rosita the Peg on the Sing movies. Of course. Legally blonde. Legally blonde, yes. Okay. Election? Election, yes. Okay, okay.

Let's, what more recent things has she done? Is it Walk the Line? Her Oscar win? Walk the line. You haven't had a wrong answer yet. I don't know if we've ever. ever had a guess, get a perfect score. Oh, no. I believe in you, Jorge. I think you can do this.

I think you can do this. My, I'm trying, I think it's probably earlier in her career. Like, those are her big roles. Or, like, the ones she's more known for, rather than, like, the latest

ones. Okay, I'm going to say cruel intentions. It is not Cruel intentions. Oh, okay. Should be cruel intentions. So you have one more wrong guess before you get the year. I don't think there'll be a legally blunt two there, but there could be.

Is it like a how do you know? Is she in it? Yes. Pleasantville would be too good to be true. Oh, is it wild? it is indeed wild I felt so bad when you were like oh it'll probably be an earlier one

and I was like no don't stray from the mother love here's the thing about wild on her known for it says like what the billing is underneath the movie she the known for has her as a producer oh that's weird

not as the star so I feel like in the algorithm because she produced the movie starred in the movie it was Oscar nominated for the movie. The algorithm tends to reward stuff that, like, actor-director stuff, I feel like. Yeah. Okay, well, almost there. Some other guests will get it.

I'm passing the torch. You did very well. I'm giving it to you. I'm going to say that you got a purpose. Chris will just remember it that way. That would be a big lie, Chris. I was going to say that is Chris's big lie that he is. I will keep looking at it with my big eye.

You guys, I think that's our episode. Jorge, oh my God, thank you so much for joining us. Truly, truly, truly. I was very excited and looking forward to it. This was a delight. Yay. And listeners, of course, have to go and listen to just to be nominated. Please do.

It will already be, it'll already have launched, but you'll have, how many episodes will it be? It'll be 10 episodes. We are releasing every other week a new episode, but there will be content all throughout. that we are working on. So, yeah, please follow us. We are at JTBN podcast on Twitter and Instagram. Fantastic. And tell our lovely listeners where they can find more of you aside from the podcast.

Yes, I am also on Twitter and Instagram at Colormi Jorge, where you will see me tweeting almost exclusively about the Mamma Mia franchise and or Christine Boranski. You know, I also have another podcast, which is, a Glee recap podcast. If you also want to check that out, Chris has been part of that. Chris came in to talk about the 3D movie. Sorry to put you through that. Wow.

The finest experiences of my life. And Joe, an open invitation, if you ever want to talk about anything, Glee, please, come, come over. Oh, God, I would have to dredge up the episodes of Glee that I've seen from my brain. Or if you haven't seen any, we also love just dropping people in. Just traumatize me. Every time a Glee clip starts going. making the rounds and I'm just like I can't believe they did that and yeah I can believe that's us and and me and my co-host have watched it all so you know it's uh so yeah we are that uh we are glee wine so glee wine pod uh on twitter uh but yeah that's that's me please incredible if you guys want more of this had oscar buzz you can check out the tumbler at this had oscarbuzz dot tumbler.com you should also follow our twitter account at had underscore oscar underscore buzz

Joseph, tell our lovely listeners where they can find more of your big lies. Sure, I am constantly lying big and small on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. I'm also on letterboxed as Joe Reed, read-spelled the exact same way. And I am on Twitter at Chris V-File, that's F-E-I-L, also on letterboxed under the same name. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcast, now including Spotify.

Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple podcast visibility. So with your big eyes and, I guess, fingers typing in reviews, tell us we're your favorite podcast guys. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week for more funnels. Bye. With your big eyes And your big lies

With your big eyes And your big eyes