This Had Oscar Buzz - 145 – Lust, Caution (Focus Features – Part Three)

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

We’ve come to the midpoint of our Focus Features miniseries with a work from a modern master, 2007′s Lust,Caution from Ang Lee. An erotic thriller set in Hong Kong and Shanghai during the Japanese occupation, Lust, Caution follows a breakthrough Tang Wei as Wong Chia-Chi, a woman who joins an assassination plot where she must seducce the target, played … Continue reading "145 – Lust, Caution (Focus Features – Part Three)"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn HECC. I don't know. I'm from Canada water. Thank you, Evening, a timeless love story from the author of The Hours, brought to life by an all-star cast of many of the greatest actresses of our time. Talk to me, an outrageous new comedy inspired by an extraordinary true story,

starring Academy Award nominee Don Cheadle. She would tell Egya for, Cedric the entertainer, Taraji P. Henson, Mike Epps, and Martin Sheen. Eastern Promises, a thrilling journey into the dark and dangerous London underworld from David Cronenberg, the acclaimed director of a history of violence with Vigo Mortensen and Naomi Watts. Lust caution, a highly charged tale of intrigue and betrayal from Ang Lee, the Academy Award-winning director of Brokeback Mountain.

Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast. the only podcast that would have nominated Jennifer Ely for the Robocop Remake. Every week on this had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Lust. I'm here as always with my co-host, Caution. Welcome. I'm being very careful because I am cautioned. This is like inside out for gay people.

Right, yes. What are the three other emotions? It's lust, caution, gossip, and shablams, right? I was going to say work. Like, work could be it. Yeah. Yes, the four gay humorous, for sure. Yeah, we're excited to bring you our third installment of our focused features.

Focused, focused features. These are very focused features. Yeah, we're all ready. Yeah, we're already at the midpoint of the Focus Features miniseries. Where has the time gone already? We're at the midpoint of Focus Features, which is, I guess, the point where the, we've talked about this before, the focus feature, like, sizzle reels that would start Focus Feature DVDs that, like, are, like, one of our true, like, what do you call the things that they brought to Baby Jesus? gifts they brought gifts i thought there was an official name for that oh maybe they brought three if if we were in this situation the baby jesus one of the three gifts that would be brought to us

would be the focus features sizzle reels right the the um the logo title card the sizzle reels and like one of james shamus's bow ties i feel like those would be the three uh icons of that Yeah. I feel like James Seamus would be like the angel showing up, though. So it can't be his boat. James Seamus heralds the arrival of the motorcycle diaries or something like that. Yeah. As the listeners will have already heard at the top of this episode, we clipped a section of the 2007 focus feature sizzle reel. And it's an interesting point because by this point, I feel like the focus sizzle reel that radicalized me was the one that featured. Um, in the upcoming, yes, in the upcoming films, it was eternal sunshine, vanity fair, the door and the floor. And then, I don't even know if Brokeback Mountain was on that one yet. It was mostly the films of motorcycle diaries was. Yes, motorcycle diaries was. Um, and then this one, now it is heralding the successes of Pride and Prejudice and Brokeback Mountain and, uh, the constant gardener and those things like that. And now we're looking ahead to the film. of 2007, which were Evening, lust caution, as you've just

You know, the listeners will have just heard Evening, just lust caution. What were the other ones in 2007? Eastern Promises and Reservation Road, of course, which we've done, Atonement, which was the big

Best Picture nominee for them. We have done every Focus Features movie from 2007 that we can do on this podcast. Right, yes, that's the thing. We've done evening we've done reservation road and now because we can't do oh no we could do talk to me that's the other one that's the last that's that's the last infinity stone in our 2007 focus gauntlet when we've allowed enough time to pass that we can do another focus features again we should do talk to me we love casey lemons we love casey lemons that was a i believe that was an

independent spirit award winner for suhital edgia for and supporting actor um it's a really interesting. Yeah, we're going to have to let the field lie fall out for a little bit for focus after this mini. But when we do, we should do Casey Lemons' talk to me, for sure. I'm going to keep calling it, talk to her. Well, we talk about talk about talk to her last week. We did. Talk to

me, talk to her, talk to him, talk to everybody. Talk to us. Talk to us, honey. That's our new podcast title about gay gossip. Talk to us, honey. So last we left, you fine listeners, on our Focus Features mini-series, we were talking about the 2002 Neil Le Butte film Possession, which was the first official Focus Features movie. So we talked about how in the transition from USA Films to Focus, Focus hits the ground running, gets Oscar success with the pianist and far from heaven, and so now we're into the next year. And they really don't let up. Like, the big focus movies in 2003 are, especially in terms of Oscars, are Alejandro Gonzalez

in Yarutu's 21 grams, a true feel-good film of the year for 2003, just a bright ray of sunshine waiting for you. Have I talked about how I think I saw 21 grams and Monster on the same day? I think I remember that, which was a day. Can we also talk about how 21 grams is like the level playing field for all of our mini-series so far? Because it's a 2003 movie, our first May miniseries. It's a Naomi Watts movie, our second May miniseries, and now we're talking about it again with focus features. 21 grams is that moment in contact where Jody Foster realizes that the, that the, that the, that the,

that the documents that they've gotten from the aliens meet at a 3D corner, like that's when John Hurt is like, you have to learn how to think like an alien would think. And that's 21 grams is when all of a sudden all our miniseries just like move into a 3D object and meet at a corner. That corner is 21 grams. Holy shit. I didn't even think about that.

Yeah. Which makes it doubly funny that I don't think either of us likes it very much. It's a real bummer, y'all. But better in 2003. And certainly, 21 grabs got a couple of Oscar nominations, a supporting actor for Benicio del Toro and lead actress for Naomi Watts. But the big Oscar play for them that year was lost in translation. And that I feel like is a success story for focus because I think they brought that movie along really well. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that one was a, I'm trying to remember what festival it premiered at, and if you give me a second. I want to say Telluride, but I could be wrong. Oh, yeah, Telluride Film Festival in late August of 2003. And then they opened it in the States a couple weeks later. But that's a movie, I remember, just like the Oscar buzz for that one built really well.

And the only thing that I think they really screwed up there, and we've talked about this before, was the Scarlett Johansson of it all, and tried to pull a fast one and campaign her as supporting, for a few reasons, one of which was she had competition that year with Girl with the Pearl Earing. But, like, Lawson Translation could have very easily usurped that girl with a pearl earring buzz because Lawson Translation was the Best Picture Contender, as it turned out. So, but otherwise. A better movie and a better performance from her, too. Right, exactly. But otherwise, it's a really smart campaign for a, especially in a year with only five Best Picture nominees, to be able to move a smaller movie like that. And a smaller movie directed by somebody who, yes, Sophia Coppola has, like, family connections in, you know, in Hollywood.

But she was still pretty much, even though she had directed the Virgin Suicides, She was still mostly known for being like an anchor on The Godfather Part 3. So she was still kind of a punchline. And so to sort of turn that around to get her a nomination for Best Director, she would have been the third woman ever nominated for Best Director at that time. It gets a nomination for Bill Murray. It wins. She wins for Best Original Screenplay.

It's a real success story for Focus. And I think, you know, a feather. For probably a movie that's very atypical, certainly in a best picture sense, to the Academy, especially at that time. Right. Small, quiet, talky, yeah, for sure. Comedy. Yeah. Yes, exactly.

And so they have success the next year with another comedy, and even stranger comedy, Eternal Sunshine of Spotless Mind. Again, I think a real flex on focus's part that, like, they were able to, sort of make Academy voters realize that, like, no, you guys really love Charlie Kaufman. You nominated being John Malcovic, you nominated Adaptation, and he ends up winning Best Original Screenplay, and Kate Winslet gets nominated for Best Actress in a film that is just, I remember when that movie came out, and it came out in the spring, and I remember being like, yeah, people being like, yeah, it's great. It's so wildly off of the type of movie that Oscar

voters will go for and they went for it and I think that's got to be you got it probably because they also had the time to see the movie and sit with it too whereas if that had been thrust into an Oscar season it they probably would have not maybe gone there I think maybe I'm being cynical about like their ability to accept that movie um no I don't think you're wrong at all um I think I remember at the time, I think we've also talked about this, about how Sideways sort of stole its indie thunder. Not that I really don't think, I mean, I just, I say this now, I don't think Eternal Sunshine and the Spotless Mind had it to get a Best Picture nomination. But like, Focus was doing really well with this kind of atypical stuff, as I just said, so who

knows. But then Sideways comes along that is a little bit more grounded and a little bit more. I remember the people who were sort of bitchy about Sideways were. ribitchy is just like, well, of course critics like this movie, because it's about a critic, like that kind of thing. And it's just like, okay. Like, I don't know if that really is like what, like, I don't know if that's, it's, you know, that's the line of thinking there. Anyway, I think sideways is a very good movie. Um, but that becomes the like indie best picture nominee that year. And still, though, um, and that one wins the other screenplay award. But, uh,

Charlie Kaufman winning best screenplay for Eternal Sunshine, one of my favorite Oscar moments. Really good for him. And a good thing, too, because everything he made since then has annoyed me in some way or another. It's great in the pantheon of Kate Winslet being so thrilled for somebody else's Oscar win. Yes. Oh, very true. When they cut to her, it's like almost on the same level as when they kept cutting to her when Leo won his Oscar. Yeah, yeah. That's a really good point. Well done. Other movies in 2004 for Focus, we've done episodes on The Door and the Floor and Vanity Fair. neither one of them got Oscar nominations, but we both remember them with some degree of fondness. But their other Oscar success that year was Walter Sells The Motorcycle Diaries, starring

Gail Garcia Bernal as Che Guevara. It gets two nominations. I forgot that I had gotten a screenplay nomination. That's really good for that movie. And for being a foreign language movie that didn't exactly have super crossover success. It's not like it became like a, you know, foreign language thing in the United States, but it gets a screenplay nomination. It did well throughout the season, though, because if I remember correctly, it also did even better at BAFTA. That makes sense.

Yeah. It did very well. It was campaigned very smartly. I think Walter Sells was a director who had been making a name for himself in indie circles for a while. I think the indie spirits really, really liked him for a good. while. It gets an incredibly unlikely best original song win, which I always tend to point to when I talk about sort of the aughts doldrums in best original song, but that's not meant as a slight against Jorge Drexler or the song itself. It's just...

This is when the ceremony was pulling some bullshit, too, where it was like, everybody who's singing had to be famous. So when the songwriter wins, he goes up and sings the song, because they had Antonio Banderas perform it on the telecasts. Right. But like Jorge Drexler, talented as he isn't good for him. It's still emblematic of the fact that like Best Original Song by that point had become

just very low profile. Like the nominees were all like just real low profile songs. And also Counting Crows for Shrek 2 if you want to believe it. So 2005 is a big year for focus. Not so much for Broken Flowers, the Jim Jarmish Broken Flowers, which we do, again, when we get back to focus features again in a while. I think Broken Flowers is an amazingly funny Oscar story because it's really funny in retrospect to think that we all thought that Bill Murray was a real contender for Broken Flowers.

At a fucking Jim Jarmish movie. Right, right. Would be what the Oscars would go for. It's so crazy. It's very, very, very much Jarmish. Jarmish movie. Yes, exactly. Wild. But otherwise, Pride and Prejudice scores four Oscar nominations. Joe writes, wonderful Pride and Prejudice. Four Oscar nominations, including Kira Knightley, gets her first

nomination for Best Actress. Constant Gardner also gets four Oscar nominations. Comes, I would say, pretty close to getting a Best Picture nomination. I think that's one of those if it was a top 10 that would have gotten in. Rachel Weiss wins the Oscar for Best Supporting Actress for that movie kind of sweeps across the board that year. And then, of course, their big one, which we all figured this was going to be the first Focus Features movie to Win Best Picture, Brokeback Mountain, eight Oscar nominations, favorite to win best picture, Angley wins best director, and then we all remember when Jack Nicholson took that stage and what happened. And... Crash. Crash. Crash. So, yeah, but otherwise, an incredibly significant

successful 2005. 2006 is a little bit of a step back, although it's interesting to note that they were on the ground floor with Ryan Johnson. They distributed brick, which I adore. But there are other sort of major movies that year were Woody Allen's scoop, the less well-regarded collaboration, British collaboration between Woody Allen and Scarletch-Ohanson in his many years. And Hollywoodland, which is kind of a whiff, even though Ben Affleck gets a supporting actor nomination at the Globes.

He did well. He got the acting prize at Venice. Did he really? Holy shit. I didn't even remember that. Wow. Unless I'm wrong. I know that he got something for it.

I think he was Globe nominated for that. He definitely was. Some listeners wanted us to do that movie in this miniseries, and I think we have so recently talked so much about Ben Affleck that we kind of need to refresh that well, as it were. But it brings us to this movie, which is a movie I feel like we've been keeping in our back pocket for a while for several reasons, A, when we knew we were going to be doing this mini-series, but it also allows us to talk about a million different things that we may not get the opportunity to otherwise.

Right. We don't have a ton of opportunities to talk about Angley, although we've done the Ice Storm on this before. And we don't have a ton of opportunities to to talk about foreign language films. Now, there's a reason for that, which is foreign language films show up in best picture so rarely, especially up until the last few years, that it's tough to imagine foreign language films that had buzz that don't make it there, because to attain buzz as a foreign language film, you really have to like be pretty much already there. Do you know what I mean? You have to be pretty much almost like guaranteed the nomination. It's also the process of being nominated in that

category too is also just kind of its really own insular thing very different. And a lot of movies that are submitted by their countries may be in the Oscar race without any U.S. distribution too. So it's like the vast majority of those movies are solely in that race, and may not actually be eligible in other categories because the foreign language international feature category has its own window of eligibility based on the release in the country that submits it. Right. Versus the academy calendar, you have to be released in the states during a certain time.

That's how you get these situations like a couple of the Bergman films, I believe. have had that and then obviously most famously recently, City of God. So it's like to have this conversation about the international feature category for a lot, for us to have talked about it before

like some listeners have wanted, you know, there's, it would maybe feel a little on the arbitrary side for which one we would do unless you're talking about a much bigger movie like this one. Well,

and this is the perfect storm, right? Where it's like, it's the rare foreign language film that is the follow-up to a best director winner. So Engle had just won best director for Brokeback Mountain, and his

follow-up then was going to be this and so it was impossible to ignore, add to the fact that it was a Focus Features movie, add to the fact that like James Seamus was attached to it, add, you know, all these, and then it opens in Venice and gets like these great reviews,

wins the Golden Lion at Venice. Two golden lions in a row for Ungley Because he also won for Brokeback Right And so Then the Oscar buzzed by that point is real And even if you thought at the time It's like it's going to be tough

For a lot of the reasons why There was challenges for less caution And we'll definitely talk about that There's a reason why this was on the radar So we should, because we did a bunch of out focus at the top, we should get to the plot description so that we can sort of talk about this movie

and then transition into the Venice stuff, the eligibility stuff, the NC-17 stuff. Like there's a lot of sort of issues swirling around this movie that contributed to why it ultimately didn't get any Oscar nominations. But are you prepared for a 60-second plot description, Chris. I am. Let me tell you guys, this is an almost three-hour movie.

So there is a lot of plot in this movie. Yeah. I will probably have to condense this down quite a bit. Yeah. All right. I believe in you, though. I'm glad you're doing this and I'm not doing this, but yes, I believe in you. But yeah, we're going to be talking about the 2000 film Lost Caution, directed by Ang Lee, written by Hueyling Wang and James Seamus starring Tonguei, Tony Liang Chu Wai, Joan Chen, Wang Lihorn

premiered at the Venice Film Festival on August 30th, 2007, and opened about a month later in the United States, September 28th, 2007. Chris, are you ready? Joe. All right, your 60 seconds begins now. All right, Wang Chi Chi is a student in wartime Hong Kong, where she quickly becomes. comes the star of an acting troupe that puts on these politically-minded plays. The inner circle of her group, led by super haughty Kwong Yun, devises a plan to infiltrate the social circle of the wife of Mr. Qi.

He is a, and he's a recruiter for the Japanese regime occupying China. Chiachi is intended to become his mistress so that they can kill him, and it almost works, but the Yi's leave Shanghai and Chiichi's group goes into hiding for killing this guy. Three years later, Xi and Kwong Yunmin meet and devise a new plan to kill Mr. Yi, who has risen in the ranks is now a spy killer. Once they meet again, an affair quickly and very violently begins,

and Chiachi is torn between her sexual attraction to the man she's trying to kill. Eventually, he buys her this massive-ass ring, making for an opening for her troop to finally kill him, but Chi-h-chre cracks and signals what's up, and he gets away at the discovery of this assassination plot. He orders everyone to be executed, but is left with a realization that he was just a pawn

not only to his would-be killers, but also the government he was working for. Yeah. Yeah. Dark ending, for sure. I guess there was kind of no way around that. It reminded me that for all sorts of genres and, you know, types of movies, that the Oscars just really, really do attach themselves to World War II in all sorts of context. So this is a sort of pre-World War II movie, but this is sort of, you know, it's Japanese-occupied Shanghai. So this is sort of a time period that the Oscars sort of latch on to. And even in, you know, foreign language stuff and films set in in Asia, the Oscars, you know, go for this. Which was another reason why I think people thought that they were going to go for this.

But of course, this isn't a war movie. This is a spy movie slash dark romance, which, and an incredibly sexual dark romance, which isn't a non-Oscar genre, but it's like, it's a little less than, like, say, letters from Iwo Jima. Do you know what I mean? It's also, like, noir adjacent and, like, Oscars famously don't go for noir. And, like, even if you say that it's, like, World War II adjacent, it's very much, like, not the concept of a World War II Oscar movie. And I think the way that it is kind of, uh, influence on that war is you can see this relationship and, like, all of its really complicated layers. Yeah.

Um, and especially the leads, uh, role in all of her circle as allegorical. to, you know, the country at the time. It made me wish that I was more studied in 20th century Chinese and also Japanese history because I feel like Ang Lee seems to be saying a lot and having a lot of sort of conflicted feelings about the idea of occupying, like foreign occupation and these kinds of things. Obviously, Aangli being Taiwanese and the film being, at least partially a Taiwanese production. And also, like, she's, you know, she's in Hong Kong, but, uh, or right, the, it's that she gets radicalized with this troop in, in Shanghai or in Hong Kong. Now I need to remember my part.

Shanghai is the back half of the movie. Right. Okay. Right. So I think there's also, you know, issues of that. So I think there's a lot of, as you said, allegorical and sort of symbolism within this, like, it's not exactly like an abstract story, but I think Lee is really sort of touching on a lot of things about that time in history, but also that end up echoing through the rest of the 20th century in, you know, China especially. So that's really interesting. And again, it made me sort of wish that I had a little bit more of a base of knowledge about that

so I could even, you know, appreciate even more what Angley was doing there. But on its face also, though, it's just a really compelling, as you said, sort of like noirish spy thriller that then halfway through becomes an incredibly overtly erotic thriller. And with these like, I mean, most of the story about this movie, as it was covered, was about these sex scenes. But it was also because those sex scenes had so much kind of plot and character development happening in them that they were these like incredibly necessary. Like you get, you get why Angley was just like, no, like this is why it needs to be filmed this way. Because so much is going on in those

scenes. Absolutely. And I mean, so much for the protagonists, I think, like, I'd be fascinated to kind of watch the version of this movie, because there's a couple different versions that exist across the globe, because apparently the USR-rated version doesn't, it cuts out something like 30 seconds and then replaces it with other footage elsewhere. And you can imagine the shots that, you know, are completely cut out of the movie. Right.

because there's one shot that I definitely think is body doubles. People who've seen the movie know the shot. Right, right. But, like, there is actually a lot that's going on. And you do need those scenes, and especially with Tongwei's performance, to really kind of understand how her character gets lost in the layers of manipulation. and sex and the performance that she's doing. That's the other thing.

There's so much meta levels of her character's performance because her character is an actress, and we sort of get introduced to her. Well, once we get past the sort of, there's this opening scene, even in the opening scene, right, the opening scene is she's already sort of undercover. So there's this game of Mahjong where she's playing a character. And then we flash back to her getting radicalized in this group, which is a theater troop. And so so much of her character is about performance and acting and subterfusion, these kinds of things. It made me think, though, about looking at the sort of the Angley

filmography and where sex sort of crops up in the themography and where it like completely goes away. And there's like really only a handful of his movies that deal with sex as a subject at all. And I will say with the caveat that it's been so long since I've seen the wedding banquet that I don't remember hardly anything about the plot. And I've never seen Eat Drink, Man, Women. So, like, I can't really speak to those two movies. But the ones I'm sort of thinking of are obviously this one.

Obviously, Brokeback Mountain, which has a, like, people still talk about the sort of spitloob scene. And from like eight different directions, a lot of them are just like, that's not how it works. And it's just like, okay. But it's also like, it's memorable because it is like an incredibly sort of like, um, visceral. Do you remember, sorry, this is a tangent. Did you ever see that movie, GBF, the sort of gay comedy from like 2013 or whatever?

I did not. Okay. So it's like, it's this like gay teen, like high school, uh, story. It's really kind of like actually funny. but the main character's mom is played by Megan Mullalley. And there's this very funny scene where the two of them watch Brokeback Mountain together. And it's sort of like, the joke is that they're very close, but also like the mom is very into watching Brokeback Mountain with her gay son

to show how, like, cool she is. And it's just like, and it's Megan Malali just sort of like riffing and improving these like fantastic lines. And the one part, you can tell they're watching that scene, the sex scene and the thing. And she just at one point just goes, wow, you know, well, necessity is really the mother of invention, isn't it? It's just, it's the funniest goddamn lion. But anyway, so that's one of the things I always think of when I think of the Brokeback Mountain sex scene. There's also a pivotal sex scene in taking Woodstock where the Jimmy Tree Martin character sort of loses his virginity in a tent. And the ice storm definitely has like, you know, sex as a plot point in almost all. of its storylines.

So, but then other stuff, it's just like, it's kind of absent completely from most of his other filmography. I do kind of wish he would make another sex movie at this point. Me too. That's what I was thinking. Yeah, absolutely. Because, like, you don't automatically think about,

about that as, like, an Angley thing. But when he does it, it's really incredibly memorable. So, you know. Not to say I don't like his newest movie. I mean, there are some bad ones, but, like, yeah. I kind of liked Gemini Man

I still haven't seen it It's Gemini Man Okay If you look at it through the lens of Okay this movie was released now But they actually made this movie in the 90s This is a like 90s action movie You'll like it a lot more

Okay All right So many of the ancillary things about that movie Including the fact of I just did not dig Billy Lynn And I don't know The technology of it

it. I am one of those sort of, and it's a very typical reaction where I'm just like, I just wanting Lee to go make regular movies again. And it's just like, what does that even mean? When I hear myself say that, I'm just like, what does that even mean? But it's true. I don't know. Make another sex noir. This is definitely of the sex thing. Like, this is his most obviously, for the obvious reasons, overtly sexual but like there's the most layers to what sex is

and like it's so integral to the deception that's pulled off because like in their first actual sex scene it's two completely different experiences like you're watching the thing happen and you

what Mr. Yee thinks is happening is he thinks he is raping her but she's entering the situation already knowing what's going to happen and it's like it's as gross and off it's as upsetting and off-putting as like she had to have sex with another guy yes in like preparing to kill and somewhat against her will in preparing this whole plot so that he didn't think she was a virgin and so it's almost like there's layers of what yeah yeah it's layers of what's actually happening and I don't want to be

glib about that scene because it is very upsetting. But then, like, they exchange these glances where it's confusing to the audience because it's confusing to the two people experiencing them, too, in terms of what they are communicating to each other by the, that lead up to the point that they're really getting into kind of each other's heads so that when the ring scene happens, and she basically tells him to run she almost doesn't have to say anything she can

he can like understand what she's communicating just by what she's expressing in her face and the other thing is is because those sex scenes are incredibly explicit and incredibly protracted you end up what

the goal of those scenes is is for the audience to lose themselves in those scenes the same way those characters are where the characters have, as you said, different things in their minds as to what they think is going on. They both think two different things is going on. And we in the audience know what's going on. We know that this is part of a plot. And yet, those scenes are necessary for having those two characters kind of lose themselves in it to the point where, especially

with Tonguey's character, where she gradually, you know, as the movie goes along, loses the sense of her mission within that. And so the audience, watching those scenes, and because, again, they're so explicit and they're so protracted, we also lose our, like, our mind drifts off of what the objective of hers is in this scene. And we just sort of just, like, are engrossed in what,

you know, happening on the screen for very good reason. And I think it's incredibly effective that way as well. And I think it's, I mean, it's not to say this isn't, I mean, this is one of my favorite on Lee movies. And it's not that it's not like a triumph of writing, directing all the craft that goes into it. But like, I really do think Tongue is next fucking level in this movie. And the degree of difficulty of having to constantly play and then play in these very intense

sex scenes of the performance of what she wants him to believe, what she is actually doing, and then the layer of confusion or playing those lines constantly blurring. And not doing it in these obvious performance like big ways. it's a lot of subtlety. Every time I watch this movie, I'm just amazed by this performance and how much she is tasked to do. And she ended up being essentially

banned and blacklisted in China for like two and a half years because of the explicit nature of the scenes, but also, I mean, like, there's always like layers and layers as to why China is banning some piece of art or another. There's always a political aspect, of it as well, but she didn't really, she wasn't really in anything until like 2010.

And I'm still sort of hoping that she's able to get another role that sort of gives her the kind of platform that Las Caution did, at least in the United States, because, you know, she's an incredibly exciting actress just from her work in this film. So, yeah. She's been in a few things that have, like, hit on the art, like, House Circuit here stateside, like Began's film, A Long Day's Journey into Night. She's, like, a supporting player in that movie. But, like, even that hasn't really been the type of showcase that this movie is and shows what she can really do. She was in Black Hat, too, lest we forget.

I know nobody saw Black Hat. Much we would like to forget Black Hat. I know there's plenty of Black Hat is amazing people out there, but I, I should watch, isn't there a director's cut of Black Hat? I'm sure there is. Because Black Hat is one of those movies where it's like, the version that hit theaters is completely reassembled, like the original third act is the first act or something like that. I have no idea. I have no idea what version I saw of it. I just know that whatever version I saw Viola Davis fucking rules in that movie. She's so good. She really is fantastic. She's an FBI agent in that, and she's fantastic. So, yeah, we cannot neglect Black Hat in the Tongue way of filmography. Yeah, it's a really, as you said, it's a long movie. It doesn't feel as long as it is, I feel like, which is always a, you know, a mark. No, this movie flies, and it's incredibly engrossing the whole time.

I mean, some of that, too, because, like, it's a little slow going. Like, the plot doesn't really kick in. Like, you mentioned there's the framing device, too, which doesn't feel essential when you're watching it. But then when that scene happens, it really, when, like, it clicks into place when the framing device occurs, it does really kind of allow that moment of when he sees her sitting at the mahjong table. again to really kind of click in and that's kind of when the eroticism of the movie kicks in. Because

prior to that, it's just this like flirtation that feels incredibly genuine like kind of laying the seeds for her confusion later on. So I want you to talk about... But to your point, it does fly. The movie doesn't feel

like it's three hours. I want you to talk about in a second about the eligibility sort of a story of this movie and why it ended up not being able to be nominated for an Oscar in foreign language film, but also the fact that this did, as we talked about at the beginning, not every foreign language film contender opens in the United States in that same year, but this one definitely did, and it was by a major independent studio, well, dependent studio, as Focus was at that point. And so even if, say, the subject matter or the NC17 rating,

or whatever made it a challenge for major categories. It's still surprising to me that, like, this is a film with a score by Alexander Displah. This is a film with a fantastic cinematography by Rodrigo Preeto, who got, he also won an award at Venice

for that. So, like, beyond just the fact that, like, the film, Ang Lee, Tongwei, like, other elements of this film were really, you know, could have been contenders and, weren't.

And, but talk about the eligibility sort of snags that this movie ran into. This also illuminates why it's difficult for us to talk about a foreign language submission on this podcast is because the process for it. And we'll get into why it's very much an imperfect process. Yeah. And especially at this time, very frustrating. Movies would have to be submitted by the country. Each country only gets one submission. So, like, say, and it's happened, other countries have gotten screwed over for this before.

Yeah. Say there are multiple movies that are just, like, landmarks, films from one country in a year. Sorry, one of them is getting screwed over. Right. And it's not going to be the submission. It's one of those rules where you understand. what the purpose of it is. The purpose of it is, especially as, you know, the international film community was sort of building, but still it, um, the roots of America's sort of

appreciation for foreign language film are in countries like Italy, France, um, Germany, that kind of a thing. And so Italy and France are the most awarded countries. Right. this category in the history of the Oscars. And so to keep foreign language film from being even more overrun by those sort of very few countries, this has an egalitarian aspect to it where like France can only submit one movie, so can Kazakhstan, so can Italy, so can Taiwan, so can Tunisia. And so you get what something like what you had this year where you had not. nominations from

I'm trying to remember if I this is a fun little parlor game I'll have for myself that I will fail off the top of my head all five countries of origin Hong Kong, Tunisia Romania what am I forgetting? You are forgetting

Kovada Saida which was two countries. Bosnia Herzegovina and oh and Denmark another round wins from Denmark. So you get that kind of a split and it's, the goal of it is noble. I think what it's all about spreading the wealth. Right. And so, and it has helped advance film programs in other countries in Asia, in Africa, in the Middle East, and helped them get better exposure in the United States. All of those a good thing. Where it runs into a snag is where something like Lust Caution brings up, which is we are an international community now. And movies are less

beholden to being just from one country anymore. And whether it's, even when you like make the onus on where is the financing coming from. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes financing is coming from different countries. Sometimes a director will be from one country and a cast will be from another and the script will have come from another. It's a very, in an increasingly more international sort of borders blurring film landscape. And less caution feels like the first movie to be screwed over in that way. Because less caution was deemed ineligible by the Academy after Taiwan submitted it because they said not a significant amount of the people involved in the production were from Taiwan. And it's like, especially today, but like at this point, like the global filmmaking landscape was changing.

Yeah. In terms of like, you know, movies may not come from just, it may not all entirely be sourced from one country. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the movie doesn't. speak to or for a certain national identity. Right. I also feel like it kind of punishes a filmmaker like Aung Lee who has come up in the global film community where he draws on collaborators from around the world to participate in a movie like this.

Like, Dipla is, correct me if I'm wrong, French, he could be Belgium, Belgian or something. I believe he's French. Um, yeah. You know, he's, he's, he's. truly earn the status of being a global filmmaker. And if you're going to make the rules that the country is submitting it and they are choosing it as their selection, I think there should be a certain level of faith being granted to that. Right. Now, the tricky part of that is that you wouldn't put it past campaigners to try to pull some shit.

And, you know, there's the most recent like scuttle butt on some of. of this is there are countries submitting movies and the Academy deems them ineligible because there is too much English spoken in them. Right. Problem with that is English can be the language of some of those countries and it just gets into this hair splitting about how much is too much English, but like... That's sort of what I wanted to bring up on the other side of this, because on the one hand, yeah, you're right.

And I just, to underline lust caution, lust caution is a film director. by a Taiwanese-born director, co-written by an American, James Chameas, starring Hong Kong actor Tony Liang Chouai and Chinese actress Tongue. French, as you mentioned, a score composer in Alexander Displah, Mexican cinematographer in Rodrigo Prieto.

So, like, it is truly an international co-production in the most sense of the word, even though it is a story that is incredibly Chinese intensive, right? It is like it is, you know. It's like it, this certain kind of ineligibility is like stripping the movie of its actual context, right? Right. Right. Yeah.

In a way that like, yes, I understand the reasons for certain type of rules because absolutely there would be people that would manipulate the system. Right. Well, and also the fact that it's the, the countries themselves that are choosing, and the countries tend to take, understandably so, I would say, points of national pride in the films that they could hopefully get nominated for the Academy Awards, which are still an incredibly global, prestigious platform. And so then you get, well, as a country going to choose as its representative, a film that is partially theirs, partially belonging to other countries and other cultures, or are they going to choose something? that is a purely, you know, purely from their country. And then that gets also into ideas of politics where, like, you know, is Russia going to submit a movie that is critical of Russian culture, politics, government, whatever.

And you get that, and I use Russia as an example, but, like, that's true of all of these countries. And so then all of a sudden you're bringing politics into it. And then is, you know. And there's certainly got to be an aspect, too, that in some countries, you know, the film community would want, would not want to see something that was partially U.S. financed or something that, you know, is entirely rooted in their film community. I also understand that, too. So, like, there's layers to it. But the other thing I wanted to bring up that you also mentioned in terms of the language spoken in the movie, because the other tack that we see taken is what the Golden Globes do, which defines their foreign film category as best for you.

language film and the key operating word there is language. And now, of course, this came into incredible controversy this year with Minari when Minari was placed in the foreign language film category. And also because the Golden Globes rules, right, because the Golden Globes rules say you are either a drama, a musical or comedy, or a foreign language film. And you can compete in one of those categories. All the other elements of your movie compete in, you you know, whatever categories. But a film can only compete in one of those. Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that also includes animated.

So it's like, you can never be all of those things. Right. You can only be one. You can only be one. But the thing, and so this caused a huge problem because the, and especially for people who don't follow the Golden Globes as closely as we do, and you can't expect all people to be as psycho as we are. when that designation was set down, the implication and the optics of it was, oh, so you're saying

that Minari is a foreign film, even though Minari is set in the United States, is very much about an American immigrant story, and it feels like, and the optics of it feel like you are excluding the American immigrant experience from being an American film. Now, I would contend that that's not quite what was going on. I think the optics of it are still incredibly bad. But if you look through the Golden Globes history, because the operating word in that category is language, they really, really go by that. And what they go by is what is the predominant language. And so this year of Lust Caution, 2007, if you look at their foreign language category that year,

it's real muddled because the winner that year is the diving bell and the butterfly, which is in the French language, but is a United States co-production. The Kite Runner is a nominee that year, even though it is directed by German, I believe, filmmaker Mark Forster, and is a United States production. Like, that is an American film. Everything you're saying here is another reason why I wanted to save this movie to have this conversation, and then I have another point I'll bring up later. But lust caution does get nominated because, again, for the Globes, a country doesn't have to submit a movie.

It just has to be in a foreign language, any foreign language. Persepolis is a nominee from, it's a French movie that is about an Iranian subject matter and takes place in Iran and is also, that's interesting because Persepolis is animated, but it was placed into the foreign language film. Did they have an animated category? They did. They haven't always had an anime. They did then, though. But it was in foreign language instead. And then the other nominee at the Globes that year was four months, three weeks, and two days.

A Romanian movie that was Romania's submission to the Oscars, but it was kind of controversially, or at least it was left off of the final short list, I believe, right? Again, this was the thing I was going to hang up. Okay, go for it. And this is why 07 is a great year to talk about a foreign language film. or a non-American film, international film feature, the whole conversation. Because 07 is the year that they started to institute some change. And it's because of that movie not getting nominated instead of the complications that happened around less caution. Because, yes, you're right.

Four months, three weeks, two days, incredibly lauded around the world. It won the palm door. It was absolutely expected at that time to be the winner. People really questioned if the reason it wasn't nominated was politically motivated. It is a movie about abortion. I kind of feel like on an island about that movie. I understand what people like about it, but like I just wasn't wowed by it. I think it's a good movie that I very much respect, but it's not a surprise to me that Oscar voters didn't go for it because it's incredibly.

difficult to watch. And even without the political angle to it, like, we talk about, you know, following the Oscars as we do. Oscar voters do enjoy uplift and, you know, positive emotion, things like that. And it's not like they don't ever go for bummers. But like, four months, three weeks, and two days, if you watch that movie and then you're like, oh, Oscar voters are definitely going to go for this. It's just like, are they? It's a really, really, like, I don't know. To me, it's a tall order. I think there are reasons.

It's a little bit reliant. The perceptions on that in terms of Oscar predicting are a little reliant on the critics, and I don't think that they'll necessarily. Right. But either way, four months, three weeks, two days is the thing that kind of institutes some change. And it's been tweaked over the years in terms of this is when they institute the executive committee. Right. where we call them the bakeoffs like you start having they go from what could be like I think we just hit the record keeps breaking every year for a number of submissions but anywhere between say 70 and 90 movies and they get narrowed to nine yeah right um and like even that has changed at one point I think there was two stages of bakeoffs for it where it went from like 15 to 10 now I think we just have the nine but also that the executive community was able to, after you've seen that whittled down list, to essentially...

Which the larger academy that has seen the movies, I think they have to prove that they've seen them until this past year. Right. The rules have changed so much. It's really hard to keep track. It's all very confusing sound, but essentially for a while there, this executive committee could add back in movies that missed the bake-off list, but they felt were of sufficient artistic merit that needed to be considered by in this final round of voting.

And it didn't mean that they made them nominees. And I think they got two picks for the bakeoff and one of the actual nominees. This is how everybody thinks that dog tooth got nominated. Yes, exactly. Anytime there's a movie that got nominated in foreign language film that seemed off-putting, strange, dark, violent, a bummer. Like, everybody was always like, ah, there's your, uh, is that? executive committee pick, because for a while, there was this streak of foreign language

films sort of passing over the most critically acclaimed movie for something that was a little cuddlier or was a little happier. That movie Departures, which was very sentimental, beat out. This year, the counterfeiters wins, which is another fucking World War II movie, I believe. Right. And so there were, there's constantly. But like has maybe 5% of the imprint that less caution and foremost. three weeks, two days has.

Right. But also, also, I want to say this before we move on. Yeah. People still blame the executive committee when things don't make it through to the next round. Right. People were like, where was the executive committee for BPM? And it's like, well, they're saving other things. Right.

You're never going to fully ever win. But there was this stretch. You're right. The counterfeiters winning in 2007. Departures beating out. films like The Class and Waltz with Bashir in 2008. The Secret in

Their Eyes, the Argentine film The Secret in Their Eyes, beating out a prophet and the white ribbon. That was a big one, I remember. That was sort of notorious. In a Better World, the Suzanne Noir film beating out

beautiful and Al Sandis and Dogtooth, the aforementioned dog tooth. And then... Movies that are way more in line with Hollywood-style storytelling. If not cuddlier. But then it starts

to become, like the winners start to become a little bit more, a little less cuddly. A separation wins. Ashgar Farhadi is a separation. Michael Hanukkah's Amor. Very much not a cuddly film. Asterpiece. Wins. I don't like the great beauty very much,

but like a lot of people really did. And, Ida winning, son of Saul, the salesman, a fantastic woman winning in 2017. All of these seem to be indicators that whatever the goal was with revamping the voting process for foreign language film, that it was doing some good because, I mean, it's all subjective, right? But like, that these films that probably would have been a little too idiosyncratic, daring, hard, like, difficult to win a decade before were winning now.

So I will also caveat by saying you just said a lot of Sony classics movies. And I think that in regards to this category, that is a distributor that knows what the fuck they're doing in terms of getting a movie to win. Yeah. It's a good point. But, like, there's ways that it is getting better. I think changing the name to international feature is a step at least showing that they're changing their mindset. because, like, it's just the fact of the matter is to get a movie financed, even if it's an American movie, it may not be American funding. You know, the funding is not all going to come from one place.

So if that's what you're considering, that's silly in regards to what a movie is. I think the Academy has a long way to go in terms of considering language in relationship to nationality. Well, it's only going to get more complicated as we go along. It's only going to get more difficult to make these distinctions and designations as the film global marketplace becomes more, you know, global, becomes less the border intensive. And I think some of it is because, like, there's always going to kind of be this jockeying thing. You brought up Michael Hanukkah for Amor, and you mentioned the white ribbon, too, where it's like, some of his movies, it's been like, well, what country is going to submit it? Because, like, under this current rule, it could be one of four countries, but what if they screw them? over by being ineligible if it's like like for the white ribbon is like is it going to

be germany that submits it is it going to be belgium which is his national country it's partially french finance and it's all so in the weeds and silly yeah so yeah uh in conclusion um Libya is a land of contrasts and uh I don't know I don't know where we ended because there is no end cap to it but I guess to bring it back to less caution like that kind of Oscar hair splitting obscures what is great and special about a movie to the point where it's like for someone like for something like less caution it's like yeah but you're talking about a really fucking great movie so I don't know talk about the movie that's right right right so anyway the upshot of it was Taiwan submitted the film for Best Foreign Language and then the Oscars had Taiwan withdraw the nom the the the the the the submission because of the sort of more international nature of the film. And so that is why Lust Koshin was ineligible for Best Foreign Language Film that year and was eligible for all the other ones because, again, as we mentioned, it opened in the United

States. And so, you know, those nominations could have happened, but it didn't. But we thought that it had a chance partially because it did so well at the Venice Film Festival that year. So one of the sort of early kickoff festivals for the fall, the jury for this Venice Film Festival was kind of amazing. And, you know, these juries tend to be very good. But it's Zhang Yamu, Catherine Beria, Jane Campion, Alhandro Gonzalez-Niariu, Paul Verhoeven, just sort of... This is very much a jury that would be aligned to...

love this movie. Right, right. And so Lust Caution wins... Because of course Brayah loved this movie. Right. Of course Jane Campion loves this movie. Right. Lust Caution wins the Golden Lion for essentially best film and the cinematography award, as I mentioned, for Rodrigo Preeto. It's a really, really great lineup for the Venice Film Festival that year, one that ended up sort of reverberating through the rest of award season. Rather than run it down, though, Chris, I've made a game before we discuss that lineup. So you can... Hell yeah.

We're not going to do alter egos this time. We're going to dip into another type of game that I never named. But what I'm going to do is for each film, each mystery film, I'm going to allow you to ask for either five IMDB plot keywords or the tagline to the movie or the second build actress. in the movie. And then you're going to see if you can guess it from that. All of these answers will be films that played most of them played in competition but

screened in some form or fashion at the 2007 Venice Film Festival. All right? All right. This feels like we could call it phone a friend or something. Oh. It makes me think of the millionaire. I like that. You know, what did they call those?

Phone a film. Phone a film. I like it. There's 10 movies. We'll play for one in a film. All right. For your number one, would you like the keywords, the tagline, or the second-build actress? I want second-build actress.

The second-built actress in this film is Joan Chen. That is Lus Caution. Yeah, I thought I'd start us off with Lust Caution. Yes. Tagline for Lust Caution is The Trap is Set. A selection of five keywords, male pubic hair, female pubic hair. theater troupe, mahjong, and testicles. Truly a cornucopia of plot keywords.

Speaking of the scenes that I said was body doubles. All right. Film number two, would you like the keywords, the tagline? Oh, I'll throw another rule. You can't choose the same thing on consecutive questions. I wasn't going to. I like a little variety in my game. You know I like to make it difficult.

I like it to make it count when I win in a game. All right. Let's do keywords. All right. So your keywords for this one are, attorney, car on fire, medication, class action lawsuit, and sweaty armpit. Michael Clayton. This is Michael Clayton.

What got it for you? Car on fire. Yeah, car on fire is doing. Yes. It's not crash. It's not the performance by what's her name on the Oscar ceremony. Right. The tagline, of course, is the truth can be adjusted that is big and bold on the poster for that movie.

Any guess as to who the second billed actress in Michael? the Clayton is. After Tilda Swinton. Yeah. You got to go pretty far down. I mean, the three leads dominate the movie, and I haven't watched it in a while. It's Merritt Weaver. Hell yeah.

Yeah. All right. Number three, film number three, would you like, you used keywords there, would you like the tagline or the second build actress? Let's do tagline. Tagline. Tagline, I think is the hardest. Beyond the myth lies America's greatest betrayal. Oh, assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.

Yes, very good. See, this one, you know your 2007 awards movies, so I feel like you're able to pull from this. Very good. Brad Pitt won Best Actor. One best actor, which is very surprising to me. Not that he's not great, because he is. Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford,

the plot keywords there, Kansas City, Missouri, bank robbery, hero worship, based on a true story, and long title. Guess as to who is the second-billed actress in that movie is. Zoe de Chenele. It is Zoe de Chenele. Very good. All right.

Film number four. Mary Louise Parker is probably first. Yes, I believe that is correct. For film number four, would you like the keywords or the second-billed actress? Let's do second-pilled actress. Second-billed actress in this film is Amara Karan. Hmm. 2007 awards movies from Venice is this um who won this is we just talked about this

dipalma one director for what is that movie called uh but bubba redacted Good guess. De Palma did win best director for Redacted. It is not redacted. Would you like the keywords or the tagline? Keywords. Keywords are funeral, road movie, mother-son relationship, luggage, and sex on a train. Ah, yes.

This is Darjeeling Limited. This is the Darjeeling Limited. I do. Tagline for this is, I want us to be brothers again like we used to be. What? It's a dialogue. Was it in quotes? No, it's just that.

What a weird tagline. Yes, it is. All right. Next one, so that was, you picked second build actress. Next one, would you like the keywords or the tagline? Let's do tagline this time. Tagline for this one is obey the rules. Obey the rules.

Not a great tagline. Not great. Second build actress. Well, second build actress, there is none. Is there a first build actress? No. Okay. All dude movies.

I would normally guess it was a war movie, but I don't think it was. What are the keywords? Keywords are unfaithfulness, cat and mouse game, country estate, video surveillance, and cuckold. What the hell? I... How do you have cuckold in there, but no... Is it gay? No.

this is a film I've never seen and I had never seen the trailer for it I realized until yesterday as I was making this game and I had no idea that this was what this movie was about. It's a remake and I've never seen the original or knew what the original was about either apparently. Okay. Directed by a very famous actor-director

who is not one of the two stars of the movie. There's only two people in the movie. There's only two people in the movie. Who are both men? Yes. Actor, director. Yes. He's also not the writer of the film.

The writer is an incredibly famous and respected playwright. Okay. I know what this is. Why was this at Venice? I don't know. It's the sleuth remake with Michael Kane and Jude Law. And Jude Law, written by Harold Pinter. And Michael Cain was in Venice.

the original. I had no idea that that's what this is all about. Wild. Go watch the sleuth trailer, everybody. It makes me kind of want to watch the movie, even though I know it's supposed to be bad. Michael Cain's probably like, you may have cuckold of me. Now break into my vault. That wasn't even me doing a Michael Cain impression, because I can't do a Michael Cain impression. I'm the one person who's not. I mean, I just showed that I can't either, so. All right. Film number six. Would you like the keywords or the second build actress. Uh, let's do second build actress this time.

Charlotte Gainsbourg. Ooh. In 07. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, why was I just thinking of rambling? No, it's Charlotte Gainsburg. It's got to be I'm not there.

It's I'm not there. Yes, very good. Todd Haynes is I'm not there. The tagline for that is, all I can do is be. me, whoever that is. Keywords, Newport, Rhode Island, newsreel footage, multiple perspectives, reference to Lee Harvey Oswald, and Androgyny. All right. Number seven, would you like the keywords or the tagline? Let's do keywords. Keywords are sailboat, family relationships, alcoholism, working class, and regret. Alcoholism, working class, regret, sailboat.

Um, sailboat. Everything but the sailboat makes you think it's a Ken Loach movie of some kind, right? And yet, is it a Kenloach movie? It's not, it is not. Working class. See, all I'm thinking about is Manchester by the Sea, a movie that came out a decade later. Yeah. Give me the second build actress.

Sally Hawkins. Is it a Ken Loach movie? It's not. It really is not a Ken Loach movie, I promise. Sally Hawkins in 07. This is even before Happy Go Lucky. Right. Is it a Mike Lee movie? It's not a Mike Lee movie.

Fuck off. What's the tagline? I'm not going to get it. Family is family. Blood is blood. we talked about this movie, and I can't remember in what context. We talked about it briefly within the last, like, few episodes that we did. It is from a director who we talked about when I gave the rundown of all the focus features movies at the top of this episode. In 07.

In 07. So it was his next year, the year after his previous movie. Oh, so, oh, six. Yeah. Woody Allen? Uh-huh. Because you mentioned Scoop. Yep.

I don't know what is O-7 movie. Oh, wait. Sally Hawkins, Woody Allen. It's the one with Ewan McGregor. Uh-huh. And Colin Farrell. Cassandra's Dream. Cassandra's Dream is the name of the sailboat.

So there. All right. Number eight, would you like the tagline or the second build actress? Let's start with tagline. A comedy about life at the top as seen from the bottom. A comedy. A comedy. I think this one...

Second build actress. Yeah. Would you like the second build actress? Yes, please. Laura Linney. The Nanny Diaries went to Venice. I think it played out of competition, but yes. I guess.

No, where did it play? It played in its midnight section. That's funny. It played in the midnight section. The Nanny Diaries. Sherry Springer-Berman and Robert Polchini's The Nanny Diaries. The keywords were female protagonist, Harvard, Upper East Side Manhattan, New York City. All one tagline, Upper East Side Manhattan, New York City, Fourth of July celebration, and getting someone's name wrong.

because this is why it pays to be a Laura Lini fan. The trailer for The Nanny Diaries, a film I have never seen, plays like, do you remember when Saturday Night Live did that fake Black Widow trailer as a rom-com that was like, she's just a girl with The Avengers, like that kind of a thing? That's what the, that's the tenor of the Scarlet Johansson, Chris Evan's stuff in the Nanny Diaries trailer, I will say. All right. Number nine, would you like keywords or second? compelled actress. Keywords. Murder investigation, drug abuse, strong female character, post-traumatic stress disorder, and topless female bartender. Oh, um, um, huh. I'm guessing that part of this takes place in a strip club?

Post-traumatic stress? what's the second build actress Susan Sarandon In the Valley of Aila In the Valley of Ala Yes 2007 is in the Valley of Ala The tagline is one father's fight to find the truth That might have been their most applicable tagline

That might have been the tagline That might have been the tagline that helped you the most At some point I need you and other people listening to this To go to IMDB And look at the poster for In The Valley of Ala And just commiserate with me on how poorly airbrushed

slash lit slash whatever Charlize Theron is in this poster. It is a... Very bad. I'm just going to say tragedy. Very memorably bad. Woof. All right. Last one.

Last one. Would you like tagline or the second build actress? You know what? The tagline was the way to go on the last one. Give me the tagline. All right. I think you might get this. Torn apart by betrayal, separated by war, bound by love.

Atonement, baby. Atonement, baby. Who's the second-billed actress in Atonement? See, no, wait, we've had this before in Zoom trivia because it's and Vanessa Redgrave. Second-Bild actress, I don't actually think is Sertia Ronan. Is it Ramal-Gerry? It's Ramal-Garry, yes. There we go, baby.

Keywords, miscarriage of justice, letter-writing, evocation. Evacuation, forgiveness, and sex in a library. All accurate. Sounds like my Friday night. Very good. Very well done. Chris. Good job. What did we call that game? Phone of film. Phone of film.

Stupid. Of course, if we are going to do it, it's going to be stupid. Yeah. Stupid. All right. This movie only had a 72% Rotten Tomatoes and a 61 Metacritic. What was up with that? I mean, I could understand this being a difficult movie to watch for some people, especially because of the, like, sexual dynamic, and, like, I am open to, uh, I, I understand anybody who would be upset by, uh, watching some of it, especially because it's, like, allegorical, um, and there's just, like, a lot of layers and, um, and it's also, I mean, people also reduce movies like this to, expecting them to be the most boring version of this type of epic filmmaking and I think don't actually give it a chance for what it's doing because I think this is not intense like harrowing but it's very arresting for the whole time and like we mentioned earlier it takes a minute to really get into the movie but people are people can be so reductive about this type of and we've been that before for not

not as good of movies. I just don't think, I, I would believe that this is the type of movie that got looked at that way when it doesn't deserve it. Yeah, that's a good point. I can, understand that. It also got three Independent Spirit Award nominations. Now, interestingly enough, Independent Spirit Awards tend to be very restrictive when it comes to foreign productions. They are very, very much an American award show to the point where, like, British stuff, doesn't isn't eligible although the fungibility of you care about the funding though because it's all about American independent productions right slash today it's when they want to consider it that way even when a movie is made and funded by Netflix like the biggest corporation of all yes in terms of

movie production yes you do keep bringing that up um yeah but um and of course the the whole thing as the Spirits went along was if a studio wants it bad enough, they can find ways around budget requirements and national. But so this film was considered American enough in its funding to

qualify for the Spirit Awards. So it got nominations for Tony Leung, Tongue and Rodrigo Preeto's cinematography. Did not win either of them. Tony Leong loses to Philip Seymour Hoffman and the Savages.

Tonguei loses to Elliot Page for Juno and Rodrigo Preeto loses cinematography to Janusz Kaminsky for the diving bell and the butterfly. So it's interesting... I will not shit on the indie spirits too much here because I'm so happy that all those nominations happened incredibly well deserved. Yeah.

Yeah, surprising that with all those nominations that it doesn't get a best feature nomination or a best director nomination, Director is an interesting year for them that year. It's Julian Schnabel actually wins for the diving bell in the butterfly, which really tells you how much of that movie was really coming on strong towards the end of that award season to the point where, like, give that award season another month,

and I wonder if Matthew Amalric does, you know, is able to wreak havoc on that best actor category. Todd Haynes is nominated for I'm Not There, Jason Reitman for Juno, Tomra Jenkins for The Savage, is, which is a pretty great nomination. She's gotten like two or three best director nominations at the spirits at this point, right? One of my favorite directors.

Nothing for Private Life. I'm sure there was like a best first feature for Slums of Beverly Hills. Now I'm going to look this up. She wasn't, I remember thinking that she had a shot for a nomination for private life, but I guess that didn't happen. Was she a screenplay? nominee for private life? I feel like there was a nomination. No, she was nominated for both screenplay and director for private life.

As she should have been. She was nominated. I talk out of both sides of my mouth here because that's a Netflix movie, but like Netflix did jack shit for that movie, so I don't care. Yeah, you like the Independent Spirit Awards are very squishy when it comes to hard and fast rules. Listen, they can be squishy about their own designations, then I can be squishy about when I want to shit on them.

So Tamara Jenkins got nominated for first screenplay and first feature for Slums of Beverly Hills, nominated for director and wins the screenplay award for the savages, and then nominated for director and screenplay for private life. So she's a six-time Spirit Award nominee, baby. She is Spirit Award royalty there. Also nominated, though, Gus Van Sant for Paranoid Park, which also gets the best feature nomination, which, like, I guess they were very into Paranoid Park. love Gus Van Sant. They do, like, talk about patron saints of the Independent Spirit Awards, like Gus Van Sant for sure. And also, a Mighty Heart gets a nomination

for Best Feature. Michael Winterbottom's Mighty Heart, which, uh, the Angelina Jolie movie. Which I remember liking, but like, it's not a better movie than Lust Caution. Like, that's just... This whole Warner Brothers movie. Yeah. It's true. Yeah, so this is what we're source of...

Maybe it was originally, like, Warner Independent, and that's when they fell through... No, it was Paramount Vantage. It was distributed by Paramount Vantage. lied. But anyway, yeah, it's somewhat surprising. Also kind of funny that like Angelina Jolie gets awards buzz for a mighty heart, doesn't get it. And then like, that would have been a good best actress nomination for her, for her second Oscar nomination. It doesn't happen that year. And then the very next year, they're like, oh, what about Changeling? And it's just like, oh, fucking, all right. Like, I'm glad that Angelina Jolie has another Oscar nomination because like she's a good enough actress to

get it but like for changeling it's such a bummer i don't know yeah um yeah what else what else do you want to talk about in terms of less caution there was something oh i we just talked last episode about um the kind of groundswell of support for pedroa motivar um yeah with talk to her which wasn't chosen as the spanish submission in its year and you know there was a groundswell of support to, like, get him this movie that's incredibly, um, reflective of his own career. So it's like, you can understand why, on top of being a masterpiece, but a very strange one, um, why that groundswell support. So you would look at less caution and its circumstances and question why it didn't really have the same thing and like focus that year had in the Oscar race, basically, um,

Atonement, and then Vigo Mortensen for Eastern Promises, and I think they were trying for screenplay for that. Focus had a very busy year in 2007. They had a generally busy year, but they could have also thrown some weight behind less caution, and it's not like they didn't. Like, if you go and look at the photos on IMDB for less caution, you can go see their FYC ads. I wish that, like, every movie had their FYC ads on IMDB.

That should be a requirement for IMDB. They should require that for all films. Absolutely. If any listeners aren't aware of like for your consideration ads and you've been wondering what that is, go look up less caution. But I think the thing that maybe prevented it, aside from any like, you know, pearl clutching over the NC17 rating in this movie is the fact that like, Aung Lee was just coming off of a huge Oscar success. He had just won the best director Oscar for his previous movie. So, like, you can feel it's, even though it's a different thing for, like, Pedro Al Motivar, who his movie before that had won Best Foreign Language Film at that time for All About My Mother, I'm pretty sure talk to her as the next movie after that.

It's not the same thing as a movie that almost won Best Picture, you know? Yeah. Like, this is probably a movie that because of all of the limitations we've talked about was never going to be a best picture contender. Yeah. You could see how it would still basically hate using phrases like trickle down, but how, like, there's not as much in the air to say, oh, well, Aungley is getting screwed over. Right. Yeah, it was tough to do the overdue card for Aungley after he had just one best director. And it's really silly because there's so much craft in this movie.

Like, this is one of my favorite to plas scores, if not my favorite. Like, Rodrigo Preeto is, I can't talk today. Rodrigo Preeto is a legend. And, like, the costumes in this movie are incredible. And, of course, like, Tongwei is absolutely amazing. I don't know how, well, I do know how, because this is also the year of Juno. Tongway didn't, like, run away with breakthrough awards. Right.

Yeah. And it's also, this is just a very, we've talked about how Oscar hasn't gone for noir and such, but this is also a very macho year that, like, you know, this is the year of no country for old men and there will be blood. And so, like, the type of things that were coming out on top in this season, I guess it's not that surprise, much of a surprise that's something that is so

female-centric, like, less caution doesn't get the attention it deserves. Yeah, and especially as you mentioned, sort of, Juno was sort of taking up that slot for best, for lack of a better term, that year as well. Breakthrough performer. Right, but also in

like, that's your best picture nominee about a woman. So, um, because it's also what it's like, Atonement, I guess. Atonement is more about the McAvoy character than the here knightly character, especially as it goes on. But, like, the central thing there is that, like, it's the three Bryan is over the year. So, like, that's at least, there's, you know, dual perspectives in that movie. But you're right. Yeah, I suppose that's true of Atonement, too. But, like,

and it's not to say that, like, I don't love no country full old men or Michael Clayton or I almost said Michael Caltons because I'm just not on top of it today. And there will be blood. It's not to say that I don't love those movies. It's just we know and we try to push back against, like, Oscar just focusing on male narratives. And I think less caution deserves a spot next to there will be blood in terms of consideration. It's a good point. It's a very good point. Did we want to talk about anything else before we get into the IMDB game?

We didn't talk about how Tony Leung is hot. Yes. He is. I didn't really talk about his performance, and I think his performance is actually really great because he is playing a psychopath who is not a good guy, bad guy, not even just in the way the movie positions him with, it's like he is on the bad side of the political discussion that it's looking at. But it's also like he is individually a bad guy. And then I think the kind of real miraculous thing that happens in his. his performance is that his, like, whole concept of not just what happened, but who he is is kind of shattered in a way. And, like, he's defined himself through a certain type of

masculinity. And Tony Leong plays it in a way that realizes that that that was all bullshit, you know, and that could be so easily deceived or used against him. Yeah, like he really, as much of this movie could be, like, a bummer. I think his performance really kind of gives us something that's like, aha, see, you have lost something here, bad guy. It feels like we go through this cycle of every few years, we're reminded that Tony Leung is hot, and it just happened again, because he shows up in the trailer for Shang-chi and the, of the Ten Rings. And that was like a whole conversation for like two days was just like, John of the Young's still so hot.

And it's just like, yeah. And I feel like we have that conversation in like the Grandmaster a few years ago. And for lust caution and for hero. If listeners have not seen in the mood for love, it is not going anywhere on Criterion Channel. Go and watch that masterpiece movie. Very, very true. Yeah, good point.

glad we did not neglect to talk about that. I guess my last nerdy note on this movie is I just, I watched this from buying my just released Blu-ray that Kino Lorber put out

of this movie, or Keno Classics. And it looks immaculate. Thank God we finally have an HD version of this movie because it used to look DVD quality. And kudos to them for that. Kudos to them for that. All right, do you want to move into the IMDB game?

Let's... Tell the children. You guys, every week, we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television or voiceover work, will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we'll get the remaining titles release years as a clue.

That's not enough. It just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That is the IMDB game. It is, in fact, the IMDB game. Chris, would you like to go first or guess first? I want to guess first this week. All right. So, obviously, the films of Angli have given me no shortage of actors and actresses to choose from for my IMDB pick.

The one I chose is from probably one of the least watched Engley movies. that is taking Woodstock, which has a bunch of actors in it, one of whom is Leav Schreiber. And to my surprise, we have never done Leav Schreiber yet. So go for it. Interesting. That cast is absolutely huge. When we place categories and we get the angly stars.

Yes. Actors or actresses. Yeah, yeah. Yes. I always fall into the trap of taking Woodstock when I can never remember who's in taking Woodstock that is not Amelda Staunton. Jonathan Groff, baby. Lee F. Schreiber

Manchurian candidate Yes, correct. Next question is which slash how many of the screams do I think is in here. I'm going to put a button in that and come

back around because I just remember he is in a Best Picture winner and that is Spotlight, so Spotlight. Very, very good. He is, he is. the one I always forget in that cast, even though I think he's great in that movie. But I always think of the other cast members before I get to him. But yes, Spotlight.

Yeah, I think he's spectacular in that movie. Two for two. I've been meaning to rewatch Spotlight. It's so good. God, it's so good. I will soon. Okay, Scream 2. I'm just going to say it, Scream 2.

He's the biggest role in Scream 2. Scream 3. Ah, fuck. Well, Scream 3, he dies, right? Yeah, he's the first or second. kill of scream three. Yeah. But I think he was on the poster. No, I believe that. I believe that to be

true. Yeah. Was he? No, he was not. He was on the poster for Scream 2. Okay. Yeah, Scream 2 is the one where like Cotton gets the most sort of storyline. Right, right. Previously mentioned in this episode, he is

spoiler alert, the villain of salt. I'm going to guess salt. I would have also guessed salt, Angelina Jolie's salt, but is not. Again, as I always talk about salt. It is insane that we're all supposed to be surprised at the end of salt that Leah F. Schreiber is secretly a Russian operative. Like, of course he's a fucking Russian operative.

It's Leif Schreiber. Right. All right. Two strikes. Your years are now going to be 2005 and 2009. 05 and 09. So after, after, um, What was the one, I guess?

Manchurian candidate. Yes. Is... Before Spot. Is O-5 the Omen remake? No, it's not that because they released it on 666, stupid. They waited so long to be able to do that. Right.

They... Well, it's not the butler where he shits as Lyndon Johnson. I'm literally sitting on a toilet dropping a deuce Dropping a deuce Dropping some flushedaways I forget what year the painted veil was but I have a hard time believing one of them was

the painted veil Shout out to our episode on the painted veil Indeed Um Um Okay Wait, taking Woodstock was 09. It's got to be taking Woodstock.

You would think, and yet no, it's not taking Woodstock. You've got to be kidding me. I'm not kidding you. All right, so last week, we did one where one of the options was a film that was on the IMDB probably helped it being the IMDB because the star, was also a director. Now, this one, I am just now realizing, he's not in this movie. He is only credited as the credit on the IMDB says writer. But I will also tell you, he directed it? He directed it. Oh, he directed the Jonathan Saffron Fowar movie. Everything is illuminated. I apologize for not

saying that up front, except I could have sworn he was also in that movie at some, like, in some role. But apparently, we can maybe add that to the, we can add that to the rules of, We should. We should. If it's only, if they're, if they're on the IMDB for a film that they are not in, but they directed or wrote, then yes. I just assumed that he was in Everything is Illuminated because why wouldn't he be? Yes. Everything illuminated.

Everything is illuminated is the 05 movie, right? Yes. We should, we could do that, by the way, because that one definitely had Oscar buzz. Oh, yeah. And it had that wild trailer that everyone loved. Yeah. And then it like. And then no one like that.

nobody saw the movie i feel like i feel like it just absolutely disappeared okay you should do that all right anyway oh nine we have schreiber that is not taking woodstock yeah oh nine did not have oscar buzz decidedly so it's a bad movie yeah but it's also not the kind of movie that would have oscar buzz so it's an action movie yes or a horror movie no you're right the first time. Action movie. Yeah. From 2009.

Yeah. It's too soon for something like White House down, but I assume he is playing some type of bureaucrat. Nope. Oh. Is he playing some type of Russian? Um, I can't remember where his character comes from in this, but... He's some type of Slavic.

That's very possible. Is he a terrorist? Like a Russian... Slavic terrorist. No, although, I mean, in this genre of movie, the bad guys in this are terrorizing. Like, that's for sure. Genre, like an action subgenre? Oh, no, his character, and this is Canadian.

Oh, okay. Not Eastern European. Canadian Much like the film's protagonist His character is also Canadian What Yeah Who's our greatest

Canadian superhero character You don't know it Because you hate these movies I mean You hate all of these movies And whatever it comes up You make a point of saying that you hate these movies And it's not Lord of the Rings.

Oh, it's the X-Men movies. Yes. The X-Men... Oh, the X-Men movie at this time would have been the first standalone Wolverine movie, which had the bootleg of the incomplete visual effects dropped, like the week before the movie opened. Yes. X-Men Origins Wolverine.

Leav Schreiber plays Wolverine's brother, I guess. X-Men movies are a blind spot for me, because after last stand, I was like, I am fucking done with these movies. And I saw first class and then never saw another one. Haven't seen... Well, no, I did see Logan because of the Oscars. God, don't bring up that movie.

Remember how Gavin Hood directed Sotsie and everybody thought he was like the next big thing? And then like every movie he made subsequent to that was like more thoroughly thrashed by the critics than the last. It was just... Including Fiddler Chimes. rendition. Yes, including

Bump-p-pum-bump-bump-bond. Rendition. Yes. Rendition, X-Men Origins Wolverine, Ender's game. Oh, but then people came around because I in the sky

was better than people thought it was going to be. And then this year, or sorry, 2019, he had that movie Official Secrets with Kira Knightley that, like, does not exist.

Like, absolutely positively does not exist. Yeah. What a career. What a career for Gavinhood. Yeah. So that. Yeah. Good job.

Fantastic. Yeah. You want to give some time? Yeah, I do have for you. I also went into Angli, Stars. Wanted to mention, because we really didn't mention it this episode, one of his, probably the, like, launching huge success. for him after sense and sensibility

in terms of broad Oscar support is Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon The Amazing Crouching Tiger Probably my favorite Angley movie It's so good He has so many great movies

It's hard to say One of the stars of that movie is the great Michelle Yo Okay Michelle Yo There is one-voice performance. Okay.

No television. All right. Well, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is going to be one of them. It is. She is amazing on Star Trek Discovery, by the way. I don't watch that, but I have heard. She's a blast. Is the Bond movie that she did on There Tomorrow Never Dies? Yes.

Okay. She, like, walks up buildings in that movie. It's fucking cool. I'm going to assume that crazy rich Asians is one of them. Correct. So I get the voice. This is so hard. Okay.

I don't want to be racist and say Kung Fu Panda because I don't think she's actually a voice in Kung Fu Panda. Well, if you said that, it wouldn't be you. It would be, you know, maybe the stereotypes in that franchise. Yeah, but it's just the assumption that she's a voice in that. Okay. All right. I'm not going to get any hints until I at least guess, make one wrong guess, because you're not going to want to give me a perfect score. Oh, is it like, no, you're not going to tell me. I worry that, like, it's something very obvious that I'm just like absolutely not getting. I'm just going to throw out Kung Fu Panda just to get it out of my head. Okay. Is it Kung Fu Panda 2?

It's Kung Fu Panda 2. I will just let you have it because I felt like Kung Fu Panda is a franchise I forget had sequels Oh yeah I've never seen them Kung Fu Panda's first two movies But not all of it It's one of like there are only like five animated franchises

Where the first two parts got Oscar nominations For Best Animated Feature And like that's one of them Kung Fu Panda Yeah The Man the Myth the Legend the Bear Kung Fu Panda Yeah okay

So not barking up the wrong tree as much as I thought. Okay. What would I have put as the fourth? I guess Sunshine, right? I would have put Sunshine as her number four, just because I love sunshine. Which I still need to see. Oh, my God. You should.

It's so good. Yeah. Michelle Yo rocks. Fuck, yeah, she rocks. Good, good episode on this movie. Chris, I'm glad we talked about a lot. We got it in there under two hours, too. We got a lot of, a lot of discussion.

in there. Thank God for us. We will be back next week with our fourth film in our five film focus feature series. We will be talking about the place beyond the pines. So much to get into there. I can't wait. Oh boy. But that is our episode. If you want more of this had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.tumpler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Chris, tell the people where they can find you. You can find me on Twitter and Letterbox under Chris V. File. That is F-E-I-L. Yes, very true. I, on the other hand, am on Twitter at Joe Reed. Read is R-E-I-D. I am also on letterboxed, as Joe Reed, Reed spelled the exact same way. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mevious for their technical guidance.

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