This Had Oscar Buzz - 159 – The House of Mirth

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

This week, we are looking at the work of director Terence Davies and his 2000 literary adaptation of The House of Mirth. Based on the classic Edith Wharton novel, the film casts Gillian Anderson as Lily Bart, a woman who tragically fails to navigate the cruelties of New York high society at the turn of … Continue reading "159 – The House of Mirth"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. No, I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. Miss Lily Bart As Summer by Wato

It is a pity, though, that Lily makes herself so conspicuous I've never seen you look more lovely Your rather responsibility in such a scandalous place after midnight He wouldn't stay with her ten minutes if he knew If he had positive proof I have something you might like to see I have no idea why you have brought these letters To sell them

A clever woman would know just when to play her cards right that Lily's never been very clever in that way. You cannot want this! Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that doesn't even know what snowblowing is. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations,

but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here as always with my scandalous hussy niece who plays cards for money, Joe Reed. Hello. I love that you... The scandal.

I love that you put Hussie in that little intro there because literally one of my notes that I wrote down while Gillian Anderson and Eric Stoltz are flirty kind of kissing in this. I just wrote down these ginger hussies because I was very, very happy for them. Obviously, these two gingers just breathing into each other's mouth. That's literally, that's the most intimate this movie gets

is they are just, like, breathing in each other's space, which in COVID times is very, very stressful to watch. Yeah, she's like, give me your COVID. Seriously, whatever. And listen, they did not have vaccines for anything back then. People were living back then like it was Florida in 2021 in terms of vaccines. And, yeah, mirth. Not a lot of mirth, actually, in this movie.

I'm starting to feel like this title is ironic. I kept wanting to scream like Matthew McCona. Hey, Murr! Yes, there was some old mirth in this film. There was some young mirth in this film. Intermediate mirth. Because notably, I am an intelligent person who understands the meaning of words. I actually had to look up the meaning of mirth.

It's just like happiness. Yeah. It's like, it's kind of like a low-key, you know, not over the top kind of happiness, right? Your mirthful. Yeah, like chill happy. Yeah, yeah. This movie was not that. Had you seen this film before the preparation for this podcast?

I saw it in theaters. Oh, I was a very, as you know, fun, lively, typical teenager. I didn't see it in theaters, but I saw it pretty close to when it was first out on DVD. Like, I saw it, if not in the year 2000, then probably in, like, 2001, 2002 at the latest. And I remember really liking it then. And then I started to watch it this time. And I started to question myself because the beginning, it feels very, some of the scenes in the beginning felt very kind of like British TV with the like sort of, you know, I don't know, the framing and the fact that there is no score for so much of it. And obviously it's this sort of like, you know, drama of manners.

And it's not British. Very chatty. Yes. And I sort of, and then, and Julian Anderson also feels a little stilted in the beginning. And I'm just like, maybe I was just, like, really enamored with my ability to watch a costume drama back then, and I was, you know, I overrated it. And then at some point, it settles into itself, and you realize that, like, the stiltedness of the beginning is a choice. And it's so compelling. It really just, like, moves from, like, event to event to event.

And her, Lily Bart's sort of circumstances, she's in this, like, you know, social quick. sand and it keeps sort of like you know enveloping her the more she tries to struggle out of it and it's just a really really compelling story without a lot of uh sort of grabby frills to it but i think it's maybe the type of thing that like the type or at least the type of narrative that like we've seen a lot of in these costume dramas but like for a long movie it really does have like an economy of speed. It, like, never kind of lags. The character arc is good.

Like, that's stiltedness you're talking about. It's not like it's on and off for a scene. Like, Gillian Anderson has a real control over this character arc in terms of not just her emotional space that she's in, but also, like, the forwardness of her, like, performance, I guess. Yeah. The Lily's performance, I mean. in like upper society and like when like it's slowly kind of chips away rather than is like a switch and when she gets to the point where keeping decorum doesn't make sense anymore because she's

gone past the point where that will help her and so now she can she sort of becomes freer as the movie goes along to speak her mind and to sort of lay her cards on the table to employ a metaphor that this movie uses often. I think Lily's inability to successfully win at Bridge becomes the sort of metaphor for her ability to sort of play the high society game. I think Elizabeth McGovern's character says this outright, where she's just like Lily's never been one to know when to play her cards right. And Elizabeth McGovern, by the way, is great. Well, this is why I called you the scandalous hussy who's playing cards for money, because let's not forget, you do owe me money uh in the future because i will win michel williams amy adams bet all right all right dan

acroyd bitch you owe me money calm down i'm just kidding um wait i already owe you the rosario dawson money is that it and then i'm like i'm gonna owe you a rosario dawson money didn't we oh no that was a bet i made with somebody else never mind didn't we make like a rosary to hear about this though um i think i mentioned it before how i had made it made a but i but i but i feel like we had made a bet similar to that before the Michelle Williams Amy Adams bet that was similar to that.

We made a Colin Farrell that's what it was. Which you also owe me money. That's right. So I owe somebody else... You have one more year to get an Oscar nomination for Colin Farrell. I owe somebody else money from years ago

on a Rosario Dawson bet. I owe you pretty much soon on a Colin Farrell bet and then I will stand by Amy Adams for the moment. I just, I mostly feel like I don't think Amy Adams is going to win an Oscar in the next couple years, I just don't think

Michelle is either. So I feel like we're going to be, I feel like we're going to be at that one for a while. It's going to be a long-standing. It is. It is. We're going to be like, fucking the whales of August or something like that and just sort of like sitting on the porches. We'll be the ladies in lavender. Yes, exactly. Well, that's been our destiny

for quite a while to be the ladies in lavender. Listeners, we're recording this on Joe's birthday, so send him a retroactive happy birthday. Yes. I am now, I'm not going to say how old I am now, but I I'm just going to say that much like Lily Bart, I am destined to die unmarried and alone in a flophouse of a laudanum overdose. So get ready for that.

This is entirely not true because only, you know, we live in a society. I did not just say it. We live in a society. I love it. I was going to say, we live in a time where multiple things can be true. But in this case, multiple things cannot be true because you can't live in that scenario and also have the ladies in law. lavender scenario. That's true. I die of consumption. I need to choose.

Well, listen. With all the diseases that that, you know, are going to come roaring back now that nobody takes vaccines anymore, consumption is going to be a, consumption will be like the 20, 28 pandemic all over again. Anyway. Anyway, we're also recording this on your birthday.

Let's just get into this before we really dive into the movie. We're recording this as probably close to airing as we ever have because it was a fucking ordeal to both of us get this movie and unfortunately we this is like one of the few times that we were like oh yeah we'll be able to find that somewhere

you really can't and so many listeners when we announced this episode we're like I wish I could watch this movie and I'm like you know what I do too sorry guys support a little peek behind the curtain yeah a little peek behind the curtain of our process which is Chris

nine times out of ten will watch the movie before I do, even if it's only by like a day or so. And so a lot of the times I will just text Chris and just be like, where is this thing streaming again? Where did you watch this thing? And if it's not streaming on a platform, I will, you know, happily plunk over $3 to Amazon or iTunes, whatever, and just rent it. But a lot of the time, Chris is responsible just be library. And I'll be like, okay, right. Like, Chris is the responsible citizen with a library card and a working relationship with his local library, which benefits him quite a bit because there's a lot of movies that are available there that are not necessarily available anywhere

else. And when Chris says support your local library, it's a good advice. When I'm the trash leaving the library with a stack of DVDs and no books, I'm like, I'm doing research, thank you. It's good advice. It's very good advice. I, of course, never learned to read and don't have a library card So I need to find other means. So can you spell the word library for us? I really cannot. So, but we've had some things recently where like a thousand acres was not available to rent anywhere. So I had to like hop on to Amazon and buy like a $6 DVD and have it like rushed to us.

So I feel felt. But still in print. This DVD is out of print. That's the thing. That's the thing. So even that option was not available for the House of Mirth. The House of Mirth, if you go on Amazon looking for a DVD, you'll see something that's like $65, and I'm like, no. And so I messaged Chris, and I was just like, can we just pick something else?

And Chris, who had already watched and outlined the movie by then, understandably, was just like, no, we're going to make this happen. And we'd also teased it for the listeners. That's true. It was already in our teaser. We would have had to go back, and we don't want to be, you know, Twitter liars. So, Chris managed to seek out a double DVD. not a, uh, whatever, two and one where you get two movies for, uh, the price of one. And it was the House of Mirth, 2000s, the House of Mirth.

And is it 1998 that, uh, the non-musical Le Miserab was, was, uh, was the other half of this DVD. So no promises, but like kind of promises we're going to end up probably doing that Le Miserab for, uh, for this had Oscar buzz at some point in the, your future because we are we know we have access we are we are taking all of the meat off of that buffalo like we are absolutely getting our money's worth for that DVD purchase so do not fret we apologize for doing an episode that really is not all that accessible but support your local libraries and also hopefully we can entice you to seek it out because it sounds like we both really liked the movie oh yes yes and and I and I knew I would because I did before but yes it definitely

holds up and it's an interesting movie to talk about because we could you know it plays into things like the 2000 best actress race which is a thing we talk a lot about it's our first terence davies and chris i believe you had mentioned on twitter yesterday that you've done a little terence davies mini marathon which yeah as soon as we planned it like i'd already watched the long day closes which is like his like if he has one masterpiece it's that but like he has, all of his movies are good. Uh, a hat tip to my friend Charlie Nash for the recommendation of the movie. Um, that movie's incredible.

Everyone should watch it. It's on Criterion Channel. And it's like a cool 80 minutes. Um, but yeah, then I was like, you know what? I'm just going to dive into all of Terrence Davies movies, which like, not really reasons for us to talk about because like he is more of like anuteur that's outside of like Oscar's wheelhouse with the exception of this. And like, it would be interesting.

to talk about deep blue sea for Rachel Weiss. She definitely came pretty close, I feel like. She was definitely buzzed for that. I mean, if it wasn't for that Golden Globe nomination, I would feel like, no, that's just a critics thing. No, I feel like she was in the mix for that. I definitely feel like she was in the mix for that. If not, like, that's the only other Terrence Davies movie that I've ever seen

besides the House of Mirth. I haven't seen a quiet passion. I didn't see Sunset Song because I had heard not super great things about it. um and that song is just like brutal and like i know that there's people that like think that's among his best i don't like i don't think he's made a bad movie yeah i haven't seen his docs um i just watched the narrative features but like it's one of the more like i wouldn't say troublesome the one that like is the legendary like you know set him off of like the trajectory he was on is the Neon Bible, which is like, it's an adaptation of a book written by the same author as Confederacy

of Dunces, but he also, like, had abandoned this book, basically because he wrote it when he was, like, 17. It's, that movie is just, like, not working in what it's trying to do. There's, like, a whole, like, shot, like, long take of Diana Scarwood doing Tura, Lura, Lura. Oh, golly. Yeah. Oh, wow, Dennis Lurie. in this movie. Cinematic universe. So, but, like, his movies are amazing.

What's your favorite? This is the one. Long day closes. What is, what is that one about? That is, like, kind of a, like, a lot of his movies are, you know, at least inspired by his own life. And, like, that movie, you have this young boy

who is very queer-coded. Terence Davies is a gay director. And it's just kind of, like, it feels clear. to call movies like poetic or whatever but it is like the way it passages from like memory to memory is like this very like poetic cinematic language and like there's a really impactful use of music and it's shot incredibly well and it's just kind of like this um semi autobiographical like reflective poem on his life and like his uh emerging attachment to movies in the cinema

yeah and like I said it's a cool 80 minutes. Cool 85. It looks like it says on Wikipedia. That's great. All right. So, yes, our first Terrence Davies. And we're talking about the House of Mirth, which is like the least signature Terrence Davies movie to me of the one that least feels like a Terrence Davies movie. Okay. So when you say that, what does that mean? What is it about the House of Mirth that diverges from the Terrence Davies thing for our listeners? I mean, he had, like, a lot of his, like, trademark directorial stamps are these, like, fades from one scene to another that, like, a moment will speak, like, it'll be, like, a jump in time, but the moments will speak together through something, and he'll use it through sound cues. He'll use it through, like, dissolves and such. And, like, House of Merth is just pretty straightforward. And you can say it's because it's an Edith Wharton adaptation. but a lot of his other, he has other works that are adaptations. Right. So it's that song, Deep Blue Sea is also an adaptation.

Yeah. But it's just much, like, I guess it sounds, not to sound pretentious, but like the cinematic language of it is just way more straightforward. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good sort of place setting to leave it with. I want to get into sort of the costume dramas of this particular era of like the 1990s and especially

the sort of the ones that are set in New York the sort of the Edith Wharton Henry James stuff but I feel like we should probably It's only a few years removed from Age of Innocence which is Scorsese's adaptation of Edith Wharton. Right but let's let's hop to that after we do the

plot description just because I feel like it's a longer conversation that will sort of spin us further past where we want to be at this point. Yeah, okay So guys, we're talking about the House of Mirth, written and directed by Terrence Davies, adapted from the novel by Edith Wharton, starring the one and only Jillian Anderson. We will get into it. Eric Stoltz, Dan Aykroyd, Laura Linney, Anthony Lepaillia, Eleanor Braun, Terry Kinney, Elizabeth McGovern, because of course Elizabeth McGovern is in period drama at this time, and Jody May. the movie world premiered at 2000's Toronto International Film Festival,

also played New York Film Festival, and then opened limited the week of Christmas, the year 2000. The year 2000, indeed. Joseph. Yes. Are you on this occasion ready to give a 60-second plot description? I am. Let's see, there's a lot of plot in this, I will say.

So the chances that I fit it all in without severely truncating some things are very slim, but we'll see how it goes. Well, you will give a valiant effort. Joseph, your 60-second plot description of the House of Mirth, starts now. All right, Jillian Anderson is Lily Bart, who has some big-ass fabulous hats, but no husband in high society in New York City in 1905. She's not really great at the finding a husband thing, which, spoiler, ends up being her downfall.

There's Eric Stoltz, who she's clearly in love with, but doesn't have enough money for her status. There's Anthony Lepaulia, who is very wealthy, but whose every human interaction feels like a business transaction, section, and she's turned off. Then there's Dan Aykroyd who is married to Lily's friend and who offers to help Lily invest some money in a way that she thinks is very innocent, but he ends up trying to coerce her into sleeping with him, and she doesn't, and so now she owes him $9,000. In between that, and her bridge debts, her wealthy aunt, upon whose large ass she is living, shuns

her, and she attains a bad reputation. And when the aunt dies, she leaves the bulk of her inheritance to Lily's cousin instead. Meanwhile, Laura Linia's made it her mission to destroy Lily Lily and she's fooling around. She, Laura Linia's fooling around with Eric Stolt, or at least trying to, and there's some letters that prove this, and then this crone tries to blackmail Lily with it, and she buys the letters, but she won't use them because it'll hurt Eric Stoltz. Oh,

God, I didn't even get to the laudanum addiction. Yeah. I even gave you a few more seconds, because I got lost as well. Yeah. But that's fine. There's that scene where she sort of is just like, hey, Anthony LaPalia, like maybe I will marry you, and he's like, yeah, no, now you're ruined. And then she gets hooked

on Laudanum like many people do in these stories actually You really do root for her and Eric Stoltz in this movie He's never been an actor who I like I've never disliked him but he's never been somebody who's like jumped to the forefront He's a he's one of those actors

Who because of certain career choices He's not like he's not a punchline but he's like One of those actors who was sort of shorthand for like Middle Pack Middle of the Pack kind of an act the fact that he was replaced by Michael J. Fox and Back to the Future, sort of he's a little bit of an avatar for, you know, a career that might have been. And, but he's quite good in this.

And he's to play this sort of guy who you kind of long for Lily to be able to be with is a little bit of a tall task for him. And he does it well. What's that? Because he felt a little queer coded to me in a way that I was like, I don't know how to feel about this. Is he queer-coated or is he just pale and thin? That's my question. And the dandy, you know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, so many people.

I felt like, I don't know. Maybe swap roles with him and Anthony La Pollya or something. Like, I, yeah. Because, like, there are scenes together where they're just, like, breathing into each other's mouths, the whole, like, what's, what's her line in that movie? Oh, the, like, oh, every time we meet, we play this elaborate game. Just imagine someone in a hat, the size of it. of your chair. It's such a hat. Breathing that into your mind. It really is such

a hat. The very first shot of this movie, she's in a train station, and she sort of emerges from shadow, and it's just this silhouette of this woman in a dress with this just like the biggest hat you've ever seen, kind of emerging into frame, and

it's a wonderful shot. The New Yorkness of this movie never fails to fascinate me. There is a very, very slim, I feel like, window of time. Obviously, like, English history is, there's so much more to English history than it is to United States history. I'm not going to say American history because obviously there have been people in this land for, you know, many, many thousands of

years. But American history, specifically as this country, is limited, much more limited than English history. And so there's a much, there's a very, very sort of slim period of time, which is right at this time, this turn of the century moment, and a little bit before it and a little bit after it, where high society kind of limited to New York and maybe Boston, resembles high society in England a little bit. And so you get this sort of sliver of stories where it's like something like this, or the Age of Innocence, or the portrait of a lady, or what was the other Henry James that became a movie. Well, even like, the wings of the, does the wings of the dove take place in America?

Or does it take place in England? Because they know that- That I do not know. Because I still have yet to see it. Because it's a Henry James adaptation, so I always, like, and I've definitely seen it, but I saw it a very, very long time ago. And maybe it's both. Maybe there's sort of a transcontact.

But anyway, there's this moment where this sort of American period drama, both looks and operates very much like things that were happening. Like the Jane Austen sort of era is almost a full century before this, but it still feels like we're in this era of very strict social codes. And if you go against the social code, bad things happen to you. This story feels like it mirrors Anna Karenina also in a lot of ways, in terms of like a very, very strict social code that if a woman violates it,

there is very little she can do to keep herself from sort of being ruined. And anyway, sorry, go ahead. What? No. It sounded like you were raring up to say something and I didn't want to get too far. No, I can, I'll bring it up later because keep going, keep going.

So there's this era in the 90s of adaptations of these novels. And so in 1993, as you mentioned, Scorsese makes The Age of Innocence, which is not the major Oscar player that it was expected to be, but it still was successful enough that, like, Winona Ryder probably comes within a hair's breadth of winning Best Supporting Actress that year. And it's sort of in the mix for things. I think it got not, it must have gotten nominated for costumes and at the very least. Well, it was seen as a disappointment because it was, like, I feel like people forget this about age of innocence. since because it happened again with gangs of New York. The movie was delayed by a whole year.

Because wasn't it even the E.W. Fall Preview the year it didn't open, or was it... No, it was on the Fall Preview for 93. It was. But that movie had extensive delays because Scorsese was cutting it down. Right. I mean, you watch it now, and I think it's close to one of my favorite Scorsese movies. It should be Michelle Pfeiffer's Oscar. It's amazing. And so you get these... But it was an Oscar disappointment.

Right. And then you get something like in 1996, Jane Campion does the Portrait of a Lady. And again, there's a way in which that movie was expected to probably do better. Jane Campion, you know, is coming off of, obviously, the piano, this huge sort of breakthrough success, the second woman ever nominated for Best Director. And so expectations for Jane Campion doing this, like, very well-regarded period drama are going to be very high. She doesn't get nominated. Neither does Nicole Kidman in a very, you know, buzzy, like Oscar, like Oscar Beatty kind of a role,

especially for a woman, an actress who was sort of seen at the time as, like, very beautiful and a movie star, and now all of a sudden she's acting. She's in a very sort of Tony production. And that doesn't happen. And it's after or the year before to die for? It's the year after. It's 1996. So you could very, very easily, and it's a great performance is the other thing.

So you could very, very easily see a world where Nicole Kidman is Oscar nominated for that. She's not, but Barbara Hershey is. So it's not fully completely ignored by the Oscars. It's still sort of in the mix for some things. Barbara Hershey's fantastic in that. Barbara Hershey and that is playing a kind of version of Laura Linney's character in this, in that she's just, she's the nemesis. She is this, you know, incredibly well-cast nemesis in that story.

And then The Wings of the Dove in 1997, again, another Henry James adaptation, not a Best Picture nominee, but Helen Abonam Carter gets her first Oscar nomination and Best Actress for that. And I think won some critics prizes for Best Actress that year. And so the 90s is kind of a process. I always feel like we look at the 90s and it like comes in with like Howard's End is very early and that's sort of the, it's the big flourish of costume dramas. It's Merchant Ivory's last, well, that and the remains of the day back to back,

where Merchant Ivory's sort of last great sort of show of dominance. And by the end of the 90s, that kind of a movie is out of fashion in a mainstream way. Whereas I feel like the House of Mirth is where it has sort of settled to now, which is it's an art house movie. It can, you know, get some buzz for an actress like Jillian Anderson, but it's never going to really be a serious, it was never, House of Murth was never a serious best picture contender ever. Like even sort of, it only really attained the status of Oscar Buzz for Jillian Anderson specifically. And she ends up getting runner up for best actress at both. Is it both New York film critic circle and National Society? Yeah, which often happens because those two, I feel like have an overlap in membership, I think, to a great degree.

National society is much smaller, but a lot of their membership is New York film critics people, or at least was back then. And I believe I'd have to double check National Society, but I know New York critics went for Laura Lennie. Right, for you can kind of. Which is interesting because it's, her co-star, Laura Linney, is great in this movie, but, like, this is the big emergence of Laura Linney this year because of You Can Count on Me. Linney also does win National Society, yes. So, yeah, so in both of those, it's, and interestingly, I think if House of Mirth had been a bigger deal and Linney doesn't have, you can count on me. I think Linne could have definitely been a supporting actress contender for this.

She's that good in this. She's that good, yeah. But it's a fantastic year for her. I've said before how for as packed with talent as that 2000 best actress year is and for as much as I will never say an unkind word about Julia

Roberts winning for Aaron Brockovich that was right and good and what should have happened, Laura Linney gets my vote that year for UK economy. It's an astounding performance. And there's also Ellen Burstyn for Requiem that year and Joan Allen for the contender.

It's a phenomenal year. And the ones who don't get nominated. We talked about Renee Zellweger and Nurse Betty several months ago when we had Rob Shear on. And we haven't done Dancer in the Dark, but like Bjork gets a Golden Globe nomination and is definitely... We couldn't do Dancer on the Dark. What's that? We couldn't do Dancer in the Dark. Right. That's right. But like Bjork was definitely in that conversation too. So like it's a really... And Michelle Yo for Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon also that year. A great, great year for lead actress performances in movies. So the fact that Jillian Anderson couldn't crack that lineup is no sort of slight against her.

She was also, I think, coming from a deficit of, at this time, we still definitely saw TV actresses as a lesser genre of actresses, and she was very, very much defined by her role on The X-Files. She wasn't even just a TV actress. She was a genre TV actress. actress. She was in a sci-fi series, right? Like, her struggle... Well, at this point, she'd already had an Emmy for the X-Files, which is... But getting there was a struggle, like, getting respect to that level for a show like The X-Files was already a mountain that she had to scale before. And so I feel like this is, like,

the next mountain is, you know, now can she be seen as respectable in a, in a costume drama that sort of is asking a lot of her? And she pulls it off. Yeah, she's incredible in this movie Julian Anderson This is part of the reason why we picked To this episode Because we keep having these back to back To back to back six timers people

And we have to build a quiz For every single fucking episode Gillian Anderson doesn't have a lot of movies No This is obviously the first Jillian Anderson We've talked about I do really want to do playing by heart at one time And she's also, is she also in the Mighty

Or am I making that up? She is in the Mighty Which we could also do. She is wild in the Mighty She is like the She is the pedal of the mighty. She is... Oh, no.

Not the pedal. Yes, she is the pedal of the mighty. No. The pedal coil. Oh, God. That is a descriptor. She's also in... Obviously, not a movie we could do, but the Last King of Scotland, I remember.

Yes. But you're right. She does not appear in a ton of movies. She is an actress who has flourished in the medium of television, sort of time and again. Obviously, the X-Fort of. But like, yes, in theater as well. But more recently, she was on that crime procedural, The Fall, with Jamie Dornan. And obviously currently reaping awards after awards, she was going to win an Emmy in a few weeks for her performance as Margaret Thatcher on the Crown.

So I think this current era of Gillian Anderson is so. fascinating because it's like she's so much embraced as like one of the greatest performers more than she ever was and I think it is a level of it is like she's had this long life on TV she's really become like a theater like legend in some ways like she's playing roles like blanched wah and such and she's doing like the stage adaptation of all about eve but I also feel Like, there's this level of it, too, where it's like, she's been embraced by the British industry, even though she is an American actress, to the point that it's like, we basically treat her like she is a UK actress. Well, she was in that, I want to say it was a PBS adaptation, but it could be, it could have been just straight up BBC of Bleak House, of Charles Dickens's Bleak House, in the mid-aughts, and got fantastic reviews for that. and probably a bunch of award nominations, if not, you know, some, you know, I don't think she won an Emmy, but she might have won something British for it, as the lead in that. And it was, that was, again, that was kind of her big role in between the X-Files and what's come most recently. And yeah, I think you're right. I think she's very, very much sort of within that realm of respected,

period, you know, costume drama actresses, which is really funny because, again, her getting this role in the House of Mirth felt like such a stretch for her based on where she had been. I also should shout out if I'm talking about her work on television, and I don't want it to go overlooked. She had a supporting run on Hannibal, the NBC television series Hannibal. And she fucking ruled on that show. She was so good. So, yeah, I want to throw that in. It's also worth noting that, like, one of the few things that she did actually win,

she won the British Independent Film Award for Best Actress, which, like, also feels like a telltale thing because, like, usually those, like, wins are movies that don't translate to, like, even BAFTA nominations. Right. So her other, well, it's interesting. Her other co-nominees in that category. were Brenda Blethen for Saving Grace, which I believe she was Golden Globe nominated for that, right, the weed movie. Julie Walters for Billy Elliott, who was a supporting actress nominee at the Oscars.

So she's the one who sort of crosses over there. Emily Watson for that movie The Illusion Defense, which I don't remember what that was. I remember that title. A chess movie. Oh, it's based on a Nabokov novel. It might be about chess. I'm not sure But actually I'm looking at a little still frame from it

And it's John Chutero in front of some sort of mock-up of a chessboard So you're not wrong There you go And then the fifth nominee was Kate Ashfield For a movie called The Lowdown Which I don't know of But stars Aidan At the time must have been on queer as folk at that time

And is looking very queer as folk In the photos for this movie where it's very frosted tips. So now I'm kind of interested in what the lowdown is. Anyway, yeah, British Independent Film Awards is not something we get to talk about very much, but good for Gillian Anderson for taking that one. Also, rest in peace, she won the best lead performance in the village voice poll, which is like usually the, they would pick things kind of like far outside the Oscar wheelhouse.

You look at their, like, director best picture lineup from this year. And it's Claire Digny for Bautra Vye and Edward Yang's Yee, both masterpieces, but, like, nowhere near Oscar. Right, right, right. Far more embraced it now. Yes. So, this cast is very interesting, Chris. I feel like at first glance, it feels kind of like a no disrespect to anybody, not really. It's kind of a dog's breakfast cast when you sort of look at it, and it's just sort of like, oh, Eric Stoltz, Anthony LaPalia, and Dan Aykroyd.

Like, it just, it doesn't scream high prestige to you when you see that. And obviously, you know, Laurelini's in it, and she rules. And it's full of really, really fantastic performances, I would say, especially at the margins of it. in like sort of these like really small roles. You don't see Elizabeth McGovern until a good hour and a half, I feel like, into this movie. And her presence is so welcome, not only because she's really great at this. You know, obviously we've seen from Downton Abbey. She like, she can do the costume drama thing very well.

I think I love that, by the way, she's able to be in both of these costume dramas and not have to attempt a British accent, obviously, because this one takes place in America. And her character in Downtonabby is an American. But by the time she enters this movie, Lily has been aggressed by Dan Aykroyd, shunned and cut out by her aunt. And Laura Linney is in the process of like trying to socially dismantle her. And so Elizabeth McGovern shows up and she's kind and she's nice and she's pragmatic and she has good ideas and a refreshing sort of like distrust of Laura Linney and all of this. And she's so welcome when she shows up in this movie. And I end up, it's one of those things where it's like, do I think she was great in this movie as a

performer? Or do I just, was I clutching? Am I clutching to that character like a life raft? Because like we needed somebody to be nice to Lily at this point. But she's really wonderful in this. As is Jody May, who plays her sort of Lily's jealous cousin, as is who plays the aunt? because she's so fucking frightening. Eleanor Braun. Eleanor Braun fucking rule. Eleanor Braun is scary in this movie. What would I know her from?

That whole scene where she basically dresses Lily Down and casts her out where it's just like a completely dark frame and just her damn face. She will kill you. Yeah. She will cut you. It is terrifying. She's probably aside from Jillian Anderson, uh, my favorite performance. It's a movie. Yeah.

Total one scene wonder. Like, she's in a couple other scenes, but, like, that is the one where she really just, like, she tears a piece off of Lily in that. And it is terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. But I think in general... So you answer to your question, though. Eleanor Braun did like movies in the 60s, including she's really fabulous in women in love.

Nice. I keep meaning to watch women in love. I have it. Like, I purchased it. That movie fucking rules. You should watch it. Maybe I'll do that today. It's wild, man

But like, yeah, we mentioned Laura Linney's fantastic in this But like, I think Anthony La Polly is really great in this I think Stoltz is great Like I think it's just Everybody in this cast is really pulling their weight I think Akroyd's the only one who sort of stands out Because how could he not

He's Dan Aykroyd and he's in a costume drama And it's just the- It adds to the character though It does I think Because he's the one that like And just to be a little Gossipy and Dishy I have a friend who used to work in the, like, Boston club scene who told me, like, she's like, she saw it all, dealt with it all of creepy people. The only people that, the only person she ever names by name as being a real asshole douche creep is Dan Aykroyd.

Wow. I mean, it doesn't fully shock me. I feel like all of those Saturday Night Live people from that era were cut from a particularly boorish cloth. I would say, maybe. Sure. Especially the men. I don't want to, like, you know, smear Gilda Radner and Jane Curtin with the same brush. But anyway...

The thing about this cast, though, because, like, everybody is so good, but, like, there's something to, like, the brutality and the cruelty of all of these characters and the performances, the way they play them, that it's, like, they are gone from the movie at a certain point. Like, everybody has, like, even Laura Linney, it's just, like, their final note is always something, like, treacherous. Yeah. And, like, it has this real impact that it's, like, the last time Lily sees these people, like, for good. Yeah. They are all uniformly, like, awful. So, well, this story, and again, I am very, very much not a literary scholar, but I, like, you know, took undergrad literary, literature classes as much. much as anybody else did. And I just recall that there was a, a genre of fiction and maybe not

all set around this time, but I feel like this story, um, theater dryzers, Sister Carrie, um, Kate Chopin's The Awakening. Um, oh, shoot, there was one more that I thought, oh, um, oh, oh, fuck, why am I gonna, um, Madame Bovary, uh, also these stories about how society at that time sort of chewed these female main characters up and spit them out and in one way or another and whether it was the strictures of society that was doing it on like a structural level or like in this story where the structures of society are represented by very real people who very very much just sort of take their pound of flesh from her in various ways.

And I think you're right the fact that these like one-on-one interactions sort of all end at this place where because Lily is unmarried and financially dependent on essentially the generosity of others, that they can withhold that generosity, there's portions of this movie where I did think of like Dogville a little bit, where I was just like, she really is kind of just like bouncing around from like one person to another who hold her sort of security in their hands and can do what they want with it. And not everybody is like, it's not like Dogville and like everybody in Dogville is the most cruel they could possibly be at all times. Whereas in this one, like Anthony LaPalia ends up really genuinely wanting to help her. And he is limited by sort of

his own, you know, desire to maintain his own social standing, so we can only go so far as in his offers of help. But he's not unkind to her by the end of the movie. And Eric Stoltz also... But there is a limit. There's a line to everyone's generosity. Yes. And it's a hard one. And then you have other people, like her cousin, Grace, who sort of her resentment of Lily for various reasons, one of which being she's also secretly in love with Eric Stoltz. And another one being she's jealous of, you know, her, anybody who else who's, you know, subject to her aunt's attention. And she ends up being, you know, very cruel to Lily in her later meeting with her. And obviously, Laura Linney is very much like that woman in the Simpsons episode where she's just like,

oh, I hope she didn't take my attempts to destroy her too seriously. And she's just fantastic. as Bertha Dorset, which, by the way, what a name. What a fantastic name. And you get that moment where you realize that these letters, I sort of had to rush past it because I was running out of time in the plot description. There is this sort of, I texted Chris, I was like this old crone with the letters. I was like, enviable side hustle.

Yes. I want to have gossip letters that I can sell and make money and support myself with. She said she found them. like in like a restroom or in like a in a in a in a washroom somewhere or something like that where like they were like discarded letters. Why are you digging through the trash lady? I don't know but she man she found how you find people's gossip you just dig through trash hoping to find a letter. The Cindy Adams of her day bitch. Um so uh finds these letters sort of approaches Lily thinks that it's is that she thinks that it's Lily who is who was writing them to Eric Stoltz

because she saw Lily and and Eric Stoltz together and assumed that they were Because she sends them to her to, like, try to sell it to her so she can save herself. But really, she has the, it becomes this weapon that she never ultimately uses. Right. Because, well, Lily has these letters, right? And so that's a thing that comes up in a couple of her different conversations. Both Elizabeth McGovern, I think, alludes to it sideways. I don't think Elizabeth McGovern ever really knows she has the letters.

But I think Elizabeth McGovern at some point is just like, you can. could take advantage of, you know, your advantages with your standing at this point and you're not doing it. You're not very good at playing this game. But Anthony O'Pollya knows she has these letters and is essentially just like, I don't understand why you're not using these to blackmail Laura Linney into getting you back into society's good graces. And ultimately, it's that Lily doesn't want to end up destroying Eric's Stoltz's reputation because he's the recipient of these letters and this sort of scandalous affair that he and Laura Linney are carrying on would harm him as well. But I think also to Elizabeth

McGovern's point, if Lily were savvier about playing the social game, she would probably be able to find a way to threaten Laura Linney and never have the truth of these letters come out. And she's just not good. I think of the thing you sort of arrive at again and again is she's not good at, like, the finding a husband game. She's not good at the social game. She's literally not good at Bridge. She is just like, she does not... The gambling, uh, debt is, uh, like, a huge way. She does not play her cards well, literally or figuratively in this world. I think one of the things the movie does really well, I haven't read the novel, so I don't know how much of a theme this is in the novel, but like, it does really present it as kind of this, like,

razor's edge she has to walk of like what is respectable in society how do you play a flirtation game to like best uh you know secure your future through marriage if she even wants to have a marriage or like you know because the flirtation game of it is like it feels like very precarious in terms of how much can she actually pursue something before, you know, being cast out for being disreputable. Right. Well, one of the themes that keeps coming up in this story that the movie, I think, weaponizes very well, is this idea that if a woman is merely in a room alone with a man, that is enough to destroy her reputation. fact that like Dan Aykroyd gets her to come back to his home with her unescorted, and then

when she finds out that his wife, who he has been lying and saying that she's sort of feeling sick upstairs, reveals that the wife is not there at all. So all of a sudden, now Lily is at the home of a married man alone with him. That alone is enough to absolutely ruin her reputation. She's also, that's what Laura Linney uses against her when they're on the boat in Monte Carlo, where she says, like, you were on this boat last night unaccompanied or like unescorted with my husband. So that is enough for me to essentially just like brand you a whore, essentially, in this society because you are unmarried and you are assumed that you are sexually involved with anybody you are alone in a room with. And it's just so incredibly easy to, you know, to victimize somebody by reputation here. And obviously, this is a thing that echoes into more modern society and the ways in which, you know, we can, you know, believe the worst about women and sort of jump to these conclusions and, you know, use a woman's, you know, sexual availability against her in ways. And it's fascinating.

And I think Davies really, really sort of lands home. What a danger that is to just sort of to be so subject to, you know, attacks on your reputation. Well, and I mean, like, I think even, like, describing it kind of sounds, you know, stuffier or, like, a boring movie you've seen before. But, like, I'm glad you bring up how well Davies handles the material because I do think this is, even though it's the least. like the rest of his movies in his entire filmography. It is incredibly well directed and it does

have this intensity to it that like after a while becomes like kind of this oppressive movie. You can see how like some people wouldn't have responded to it because it is ultimately like a very dark heavy movie. And like some of that is also

Julian Anderson's performance. Like you talked about earlier in the episode the kind of like performance she has and this like very arch thing while she's still in society and like she's slowly degraded and diminished throughout that it's like she has this sobbing monologue to Eric Stoltz towards the end of the movie and like it sounds like a very basic like note but like the way that she sobs at the end of the movie is not the way a person like sobs in a movie It's like when you, it's like someone truly having, like, a breakdown.

I was kind of really amazed by that part of it. Like, it's not like crying is great acting, but it really felt like, I guess I'm not describing it. No, I think, I think it's this kind of sort of soul-deep devastation that she, you know, is bringing to the forefront. And again, because her character starts off very awkward and very much like, but like in this sort of like innocent way and just like it's just like she's just ultimately her greatest sin is she does not maneuver in this world as skillfully as other people do. And she's a little naive and she's a little, you know, she's not smart about money. what was the thing I texted you last night

where she's just like I'm of no use to this world and I feel very stupid and ultimately I'm going to die alone because of it and it's just like yeah like that's sort of the size of it back then and it's devastating and then you see other people in the movie who she's contrasted with who maneuver very well

obviously Laura Linney has like an iron fist grip on her social circle She, Lily, ends up working for this sort of social climbing woman as her social secretary for a very short time. And this woman who's like kind of a nightmare, but like is a force of personality. And we find out later that like, yeah, she was able to maneuver her way into high society. And, you know, this woman did in seemingly like a month what Lily has been trying to do for her entire life, which is to just sort of successfully maneuver her way about this, you know, high society world that she lives in. and she's just not very good at it.

And on a performance level, it's this full, like, uh, lowering of the curtain to where it's like none of these people behave like real people. Yeah. And she is kind of stripped of all of that artifice and artificiality of like social interaction with high society that she's kind of this like bare bones shell of a person that like can is like just walking vulnerability um it's interesting to me that that she did not get nominated for a bafta award that this movie did not do very well at the bafters which i know it's not british film nominee at bafta too so it's not like they ignored it too right and it's a

costume design i mean the costume in this movie there was a twitter prompts stunning last year we there was a little moment where we were sort of posting costume nominees from the year two that I remember. And I remember being like, well, obviously Crouching Tiger and Dragon and these like phenomenal costumes. And like almost famous, you know, for that period was like really, really something. But I

remember sort of seeking out images from this movie and the costumes are astounding. And some of the stuff that Gillian Anderson is wearing in this movie is just really, really gorgeous. Without it feeling like it's a, it's not a fashion

show movie. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, Not like, even like Reese Witherspoon's Vanity Fair. Obviously, it's Mira Nair's Vanity Fair, but I always think of it as Reese Wetherspins Vanity Fair, which we talked about. And that almost felt a little bit more like new scene, new costumes, like, hey, what's going on? Whereas like this one, it's a little bit more, you know. It's really attuned to the like falseness of those societies.

So like the extravagance actually feels important to it in a way that doesn't feel like the lack of a better word costume drama e. Yes. Where it's like it actually kind of informs these characters. It informs like the society of these like, you know, what is specifically extravagant about it. Yeah, exactly. In a way that feels like real, it creates a real world rather than like this fantasy

that we're just, you know, eye candy. Other best British film nominees at BAFTA that year, a film called Last Resort A Sexy Beast, which was not released in the States until 2001. A chicken run. Oh, boy. I very much

love Ardman. And the winner, as you might expect, Billy Elliott. Billy. What a great movie. What's wrong with Bale? We re-watched that one for when we were on the Vanity Fair podcast last year, looking back at the movies of the year 2000. And... What's wrong with Bale? I love... I just... I just love that movie. I think it's so wonderful. I really do enjoy it. I'm such a Stephen

Daldry whore for a while, and that was obviously right in the thick of that era. Yeah. Terence Davies also has a movie world premiering at Tiff called Benediction this year. I am rather excited to see it after watching all of his entire filmography, this very intense moment of me watching his beautiful films. House of Mirth also. World premiered at the Toronto International Festival, International Film Festival, sorry. Moving right along and moving too quickly. But Joseph, I have a game for you.

I'm very excited. We do love a game on this podcast. Yes, we do. Not Bridge. No. This is not a financial bet, so you won't owe me any more money than you already do. A monster.

But we haven't played parental advisory in a while. Ooh, oh, this is very exciting. So what I have for you, we're going from the films that played the 2000 Toronto International Film Festival. I am going to give you three clues that will get progressively easier. I'm going to remove character names, but otherwise I am taking, lifting directly as the way that they are sometimes awkwardly entered in the parental advisory section of IMDB. All right. You will have to guess the movie. You have three clues to get them saying what kind of,

Fow language, violence, sexual content, disturbing scenes are in the movie. All right. Are you ready? Toronto International Film Festival. Okay. I did not make this movies that I think that you maybe have not seen. I am positive you have seen all of these or you at least have familiarity with them. Okay.

All right. So your first movie, first clue. Non-sexual discussion of lesbian relationships. Do I guess after each clue? You can if you want. If you don't have something, you can always move it right along. Best in show. Not best in show, though I do believe it did play that TIF.

Next clue. The protagonist is a gynecologist and many scenes in the film involve non-sexual nudity and a doctor's office. Dr. T. and the women? It is Dr. T. and the women. Your third clue would have been the birthing of a baby is seen in full view of the vaginal opening

during and afterbirth. I almost said vaginal. Viginal. It's not a vaginal. Next movie. First clue. A couple has sex, but we only see them kissing while still clothed and their shoulders after a while.

Oh, God. That could be anything. What's a 2000 movie that would have done that? Where you see their shoulders after a while. You can count on me. Incorrect. Second clue. A woman jumps off a cliff into a waterfall. Oh, God.

A woman jumps off a cliff into a waterfall. Um, I don't know. What's the next one? All right, your third clue. A lot of martial arts, sword play, and jumping around in the air. Oh, well, crouching tiger, hidden dragon. Crouching tiger hidden dragon. I love that that's a parental advisory.

A lot of jumping around in the air. I don't want my child to see that. I believe that came from the disturbing moment section, whatever they call it. Next movie. One character almost dies on ludes. Oh, God, not ludes. This is almost famous. It is indeed almost famous.

Your next clues would have been a man drinks a cup of LSD-infused beer. And it is not seen but strongly implied that a 15-year-old boy is de-vurginized by three 20-year-old women at the same time. Yes, I would definitely say it is strongly implied. In fact, stated outright. I believe they're dancing around him

and saying deflower. So yes, I do believe that is what happens. You might call that an implication. You might call that an implication. Next movie. A car drives off a bridge into a river and its occupant drowns. Pollock. No.

No? That's absolutely what happens in Pollock. I love that it happened to another movie. I absolutely threw that in there because it also happens in Pollock. All right. Next clue. Strong sex scene showing a woman with several guys. Oh.

Lucky lady. Woman with several guys, year 2000. Um, I don't know. You're going to get it after this one. Jeff Bridges' character smokes. Is this the contender? That is her big secret, right? She had like group sex in college?

Yes. Well, no. They frame her for it, but in the, spoiler her alert, at the end of the movie, she's like, no, that's not me. I have a birthmark on my house. Right. Right. It ends up, God, that movie robs itself. of the courage of its own convictions by the end.

I totally forgot. Joan Allen still rules in that movie, though. I should watch it again. Joan Allen always rules, but she is great in that movie. Next movie. Several scenes of a man smoking a joint. Well, um... Not a joint, honey.

What's a, like, joint forward movie from the year 2000? I don't know. What's the next one? A car crashes into a semi-truck. Impact not shown, screen goes black. Is this Pollock? This is not Pollock. Jesus Christ.

Okay, a couple is shown in a love scene. The scene only lasts a few seconds and is very brief, takes place in a hotel, and we see, kind of from a distance, the woman's bareback as she moves rhythmically on top of a man. Okay, it's this you can count on me. This is you can count on me. I forgot that their parents. Their parents die in that car crash at the very beginning. Whoever wrote that speaks as I do with way too many words to describe a simple thing.

In terms of, we could just say they fucking. Laura Linney's body double sits on top of Matthew Browder's body double. Next to me. A man gets kidnapped at a grocery store, then beaten to a bloody pulp by a group of men. Oh, God. At a grocery store. well could happen to anybody um is this sexy beast no i'm assuming that if it was available for for bafta might have played earlier festivals uh next clue the car crash is very intense oh come on i'm not going to

guess pollock again for car crash i was going to say this isn't pollock i'm not going to do it you're not going to get me to do it. Is this before nightfalls? No. Final clue. The scenes of dogs fighting are intense and may upset animal lovers. Amores peros. Amores peros, yes. See, you should be able to get them by the third one.

Next movie. A boy wears his sister's dress and lipstick. Hey. It's the dream. I know. So that's why I would have loved an older sister. Did you know that my biopic played the 2000? All right.

Is this before night falls? It is not before night falls. Damn it! Striking miners, throw things, and yell at scabs crossing the picket line. Belly! What's the wrong with Bala? The third clue would have been, the film has over 50 uses of fuck alongside the word.

like shit and dick, alongside British swear words like wanker, twat, fanny, and gay-ser. Oh, I love it. I love it. Billy's little gay friend. Remember the whole Billy Elliott thing of how they wanted to get it reduced to PG-13, even though they say fuck all the time in that movie? But they're just like, but it's British fuck. It's like, it's charming.

Children say fuck. It's just charming. Yeah. I mean, I would fully support that movie being PG-13. I mean, I remember it as a talk. We should all be saying. Fuck, it's fine. Next movie.

Four people are seen going through intense emotional suffering. Oh, shut up. God, my life story on film. Four people, though. That feels like it's specific. What's a like four-person, intense emotional suffering kind of a thing? I don't know. next one. A man's arm is amputated, but the camera quickly switches when the sawblade comes

in contact with the skin. You can see blood briefly seem out of his arm and splatter on his face. I imagine your third one is like double dong, back-to-back, ass-to-ass kind of a thing, right? For Requiem for a Dream? It is Requiem for a Dream. The third clue, which comes directly from the parental advisory section, you will never, ever even think about taking drugs after watching I mean fair Yeah Yeah Next movie

Your second to last movie We see a woman snort something Not known to the viewer It is most likely cocaine Okay Lady Doing Coke in the year 2000 I mean

So many things state and maine no a character is injected with an overdose of insulin oh I don't like that that's not fun I don't know

the first scene of the film depicts a reversed shooting with a stream of blood oozing backwards blood shown on the walls and floor and then the shot itself on off screen I always forget that this is the 2000 festival movie. This has got to be Memento. It is a Memento.

Yeah. Your final movie. Yes. First clue. A hundred and forty uses of fuck. 14 uses of the sea slur towards men mostly. One use of Ashtwatt, Prick, Winker, and Bollocks. All right. British movie. 2000.

Oh, is it Snatch? it is not snatch I can't imagine Tiff would have played a Guy Ritchie movie I mean maybe it's in there I could Most of his This is lifted directly

Not even taking out a character slur Or a character name Most of his dialogue is either shouting or screaming In order to persuade the main character Some viewers may find him scary Is this sexy beast This is sexy beast All right there we go

Final clue would have been A man has visions, dreams of a hairy man beast pointing a gun at him the creature may frighten some viewers I remember so very little about the plot of that movie I just watched it and that movie is wild I watched it for this

year's little gold man that we just did for the 2001 Oscar race That is parental advisory But Joseph I love that game, yes Not so fast This episode

There's a game Oh shut up Not a game within a game. I didn't pack my cleavage with the cocktail shaker this time. I don't know what I'm going to do. I hope you've been paying attention. Oh, God. From the films that you

just correctly guessed, which is the most Academy Award nominated film? All right. Almost famous. Got two acting nominations and a writing one, but I don't think anything more. Billy

probably also got at least three. You can count on me. I think just had the two. Requiem, I think maybe only had the one. Sexy Beast, I think only had the one. I cannot remember if Pollock ever actually came up or whether I just kept guessing it. Oh, wait, it's Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Watching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the correct answer.

Yeah. What film that you just correctly guess has the least Academy Award nominations? All right. Which one would be a zero? There's got to be one of those that's a zero. Um, or maybe not. Maybe it's... I'm trying to remember which ones I got.

all right oh wait no maris perils has won there's got to be something with maybe a movie we've done an episode on oh it's dr t and the women dr t and the women the only film mentioned with no oscar nominations yeah yeah yeah how many acting nominations came from the list of 10 films okay did we do 10 something so one for sexy beast two for almost famous one for for Requiem, one for you can count on me. Oh, what else? Nothing for a more. I will say you're forgetting two movies.

Oh, two for the contender. Yes. None for Crouching Tiger. Um, um, uh, so now I'm only missing. one movie. Oh, one for Billy Elliott, so eight.

Correct. How many acting wins came from these movies? I gotta remember him all again. Zero. Zero is correct. There are only five Oscar wins from these ten movies. Can you accurately distribute them? Cameron Crow for Almost Famous. Correct. Crouching

Tiger, Hidden Dragon, one cinematography? I'm pulling that up. How many Oscars do you think Crouching Tiger won? Three. No. Two? No. Four. Four. Yes. Okay. Those are your

five Oscar. Okay. All right. So four for Crouching Tiger one. Cinematography, score, art direction, and foreign language film. Okay. Now known as international. Right. and international feature. Joseph, you have won parental advisory and the game within a game. Do I win

$9,000 from the Lillie Bart Blackmail Fund? That was fun. Sponsored by Lillie Bart Blackmail. Oh, my God. All right, that was very stressful. A very stressful thing to do to me on my birthday of all times, but that was super fun. I figured some extra trivia on your birthday.

Yes. Listen, you know how much I love. of trivia. What else do we have for the Murth House? So I want to talk about the actual... It's good that you brought up Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, because I want to talk about the actual costume design nominees that year, because it's kind of crazy that this didn't get one.

You know what I mean? Sure. Crouching Tiger, also a Sony Classics movie, they were pushing that movie really hard, which is maybe part of the reason one. this movie fell a little bit by the way so that makes a lot of sense but I want to get a lot of indie distributors you see that sometimes where they like rightly put their whole they got to make their choices this is we talked about this with um what did neon

abandon in favor of a parasite a portrait of a lady on fire but you've also seen in other years like um I mean there's a bunch of them in the 90s too you also have like the year that Moonlight won, like A-24 fully rightly put their effort behind it, but like maybe they could have done a little bit more for 20th century women. Right, but again, you only have so much money and... Only so much bandwidth. And also, like, Crouching Tiger, not only did they get four Oscars for that movie, they, like, it made a hundred million dollars.

Yeah, like, yeah, Sony Classics made absolutely all the right calls that year. Like, no one's, yeah, we're not going to... Just like those other examples we did. It was absolutely the right call. Yeah. So costume design that year was won by Janty Yates for Gladiator. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragons, Timmy Yip was nominated. Those costumes rule. 102 Dalmatians nominated for costume designer Anthony Powell, which... Cool.

Cool, but again, like, it's 102 Dalmatians. Like, have we not already, like, exhausted? The costumes that 102 Dalmatians are even better than 101 Dalmatians. By one... By one... By one... How the Grinch Stole Christmas, Ron Howard's Howard is How The Grinch St. Christmas is nominated for costume designer Rita Ryak. And like, I both get it and also resent it. Like I get it, right? You're doing some like interesting things like Christine Bernanke and whatever. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot. Yes. Ultimately, I wish something else had gotten there. And then Jacqueline West was nominated for quills, which like, yes. But I think if you're going to do period costumes, I would very, very, very much slot in something like the House

of Mirth over Quills. And I know that Quills was nominated elsewhere. So, like, it makes a lot of sense. Or what, or what did you say? Almost famous. Or almost famous. Or, like, I know that, like, contemporary costumes and getting Oscar voters to recognize that contemporary costumes are very much a thing. And Julia Roberts did not show up on the set of Aaron Brockovich with those, like, push-up tops. But, like, that is a costume design nominee. I'm also contractually obligated. for nominated in makeup Ico Ishioka's costume design for the cell.

The cell 1 million percent should have been a costume design nominee. Like without question. That movie exists. Weird gays who love the cell unite around. It's been a minute since we've mentioned. It's been a minute since we've mentioned

the costumes for the cell, but like one million percent. So like I think that category, and again, I get the gladiator thing. It is a, you know, it's a sweeper that year. So like, whatever. I would probably wipe out probably everything in this category that isn't Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, for other things. But, like, they're, like, Oh, Brother Where Art Thou had some really interesting costumes that year.

What other movies? I'm trying to, like, look through the, like, I could get behind a dancer in the dark costume design nomination, honestly. Like, there's some stuff there that year. all of the cardigans of chakala i was going to say chakala kind of like that's not like that's not that is cardigan cinema yeah but yeah justice for aaron brocovich's costumes which is like that's contemporary costumes done very very right like half of a conversation about that movie was about remember that quote that she gave to Oprah about how it takes a village to raise this cleavage like it's a great quote it's a really really great quote from julia roberts

God, she did so well that year on the campaign trail. What else about the house? We could talk about the, we've kind of danced around it, but this best actress line up a little bit. Like, you definitely are more firmly planted in Laura Linney, where I've previously said my vote would change constantly. Just rewatch Alice doesn't live here anymore. That is like, I feel like I've decided. that that is my favorite overdue Oscar win. What?

Because that's an overdue Oscar for Ellen Burstyn. For her last picture show? And The Exorcist? Yes, because I absolutely would give it to her for The Exorcist. But part of the reason why she won was like she was like one of those overdue narratives. Yes. And I think same time next year was our, it was, I think Alice was her fifth nomination. But Alice really, like Alice stands on her, it's a,

own really well as a film. Absolutely. Like, I'm so glad she won for it. Yeah, but like... Yes. But yes, the other factors play there. It's my favorite overdue Oscar win. Yes, I think that's right.

And I think the fact that she had already won an Oscar made it easier for me to just, to allow her to just sort of sit with the nomination for Requiem. Because she's phenomenal in that movie. Like, I take nothing away. Again, I think all five of the women... People who say they would vote for her are not wrong. No, they're not wrong. Nor are the people who say they would vote for Julia Roberts.

Nor are the people who say they would vote. would vote for Joan Allen. And I know that, like, that's a smaller contingent. But, like... And there are no people who would say they would vote for Julia Pinoche. And I... But also, Juliet Pinoche is... And she had already won by that point, too.

So, like, that was fine. But, like, Julia Pinoche, who is such a... Skillful actress. And is such a... And as a foreign actress... Um... Her appeal in the United States is always going to be a little... exotic, for lack of a better term, or that, you know, it's going to be very, very much

sort of pushed by critics, which I think is why it's fascinating that this French actress is able to ride into a nomination on a movie that was not a critic starling, that was very much movie star-driven. Like, she gives a movie-star performance in that film. And the more time passes, the more why I would. while I would have liked to have seen any number of other actresses take that nomination. Yeah, I could probably

throw a dozen names at you before I would put Juliet Benocean there. But I'm kind of charmed by the fact that she got it. Yeah. And like she would still go on to do even better work, probably her best work that like Oscar was never going to go for and things like let the sunshine in or certified copy. Or Cloudsussels Maria even. Yep. And certified copy is the one I would give her. an Oscar 4th. That's my, that's, that's me. But I think also we went back on the Joan Allen

tip for a second, though. If we had known that this was going to be her last Oscar nomination, I still wouldn't take it away from Julia because I feel like that's like the universe is lining up correctly. And like at that moment, like it would have felt wrong to not to not do it. But like, I, it's sad that like that was the end of the end of the line for Joan Allen in terms of as an Oscar nominated after. Why am I momentarily forgetting what her third one was? this, the crucible, and what? Nixon. It was Nixon in the crucible back to back.

So the contender really felt like a momentum nomination, where it's just like she's finally coming into her lead performance. And I remember... The best performance of her nomination. There was a sense that, like, the best was yet to come for Joan Allen. There was the sense that, like, this won't be her last nomination. She's going to keep getting these roles and she's going to keep getting nominated. And the fact that it dried up and the fact that, like,

a movie, like, the upside of anger and a performance in that was, completely ignored. We really have to do the upside of anger. And then just the roles really dried up for her so quickly. That window shut so quickly is really kind of a chilling reminder of how brief that window can be for even the best of actresses in, you know, in this climate. And it sucks. It super sucks. Anyway. Anyway. That's a headspace for me to be in on my birthday, but whatever. I love you, Joan Allen.

We love Joan Allen. We also love Gillian Anderson. Yes. Like, even though, like, I don't watch the ground. I obviously live in the States and can't go to see her in the British theater that she is, like, highly, highly praised for. Yeah. But, like, it has been genuinely exciting to watch her get so thoroughly reembraced within the past decade. Absolutely.

Absolutely. I'll be interested to see what this year's Emmys end up being in terms of what kind of a ceremony we get. Obviously, the Delta variant is probably making a lot of people question whether they're going to want to be at an in-person ceremony. And yet, it also feels like the entertainment industry feels very unwilling to go back to Zoom ceremonies after the Oscars. So whether she's in a room and shows up to collect this award that she's absolutely 1 million percent going to win or whether it's another, it'll be her third remote acceptance of a trophy for this role.

I love it for her. Remember her snake? Was it a snake that was on her dress for? Was it the globes? Oh, I can't remember. It was so fucking cool. That's the other thing about Julian Anderson. And she's like, rad as hell.

Oh, yeah. She seems like, she's a kook, kind of. But, like, in a way that feels very fun. I feel like there's, I don't sense the sense of malice in her, in her kookery in a way that I maybe do with some other people. But she's, she seems very fun. And it seems like that cast of the crown seems to really enjoy each other in a way that I find very charming, Olivia, especially this version of the cast with Olivia Coleman and Emma Corrin and Jillian Anderson and Josh O'Connor. Like, they all seem to be a cool hang.

You know what I mean? The year of Olivia Coleman being happy, not only for her fellow cast members, but her fellow nominees has been lovely. What a wonderful lady. Olivia Coleman, how unexpected, I think, a little bit, that Olivia Coleman would be as good at the award show thing as she is. I love it. see her being an Oscar nominee again this year. What is she in? The Whispers going around, Maggie Gyllenhaal's Elena Ferranti adaptation, The Lost Daughter, are all so exciting.

It's Netflix, right? Yes, Netflix. Come on Netflix. Actually win something. Don't just get eight billion nominations. Let's actually win something this time. I get acting Oscars. you who has defended Laura Dern's win against the Lord of people wanting.

I shouldn't overlook it. That's, and I do defend it. It is a great win for a great performance. That's right. I was mostly thinking in lead acting categories, but yes, you're right. You're right. Had they not got a lead acting Oscar yet? I don't think so.

I don't think they have. It's just screenplay and supporting wins. Right. Obviously no best picture. Right. I think their best picture play this year is, I mean, maybe we'll like the movie, but I think unfortunately it's going to be the Adam McKay movie. Oh, I don't know.

The tone of that trailer did not feel like it was going for awards to me. Would the tone of that trailer be that far off from the tone of vice? I think they would at least be like Academy Award winner. and such, Academy Award winner, such and such. Like, I think they would, like, at least be touting the bona fides of its amazingly starry cast. I think they are really, really selling it as what it is, which is just, like, a kind of broad comedy with these, you know, night of a thousand stars cast behind it. But we'll see. I suppose I'm just maybe skeptical that however broad of a comedy it is, that it won't be, if not entirely embraced by the Academy, it will be Netflix's.

first priority. Well, they don't seem to have, it doesn't feel like they're as flush this year with big contenders as they have been previously, but where the next two months tend to tell the tale in terms of what are the contenders and what are not, so we'll see.

We'll find out when we do our annual TIF episode. Yeah, guys, we'll be doing virtual TIF. Hopefully we'll actually be given access to certain movies. Don't expect us to have any thoughts on Dune. Yeah, they're not going to screen Dune on our laptops.

Yeah. Yeah. And they shouldn't, I should say. I'm not being unduly bitchy. Everything to Neville News says. I mean, we know we're not going to see Dune, but, like, I would like to have some inkling of what other movies are not going to be accessible. I agree. I agree.

But anyway, we'll get into that for that episode. In a few weeks. Yes. All right. Any closing thoughts? Um, uh, from the legendary house of mirth, Jillian Anderson. Yes. I can't believe that was the first legendary house of mirth joke we had going into this. What would be the House of Merth's rival house?

Oh, God. The House of Flying Daggers? House of Delight is it? No, it would have to be like the house of like... The International House of Pancakes? The House of Morose. Like something like that's like darker and sort of. of like not fully the house of melancholy

right not because like mirth isn't full happiness right it's just light happiness the house of melancholy and it's Darcy from the Smashing Pumpkins running that house

it's cursed and dunst from melancholy I thought of I thought of that the other day did I express this thought to you where it's just like I know the names of every single member of the smashing pumpkins

and meanwhile like I could not tell you more than three songs of any popular artist right now. Like it's truly my literacy in the music realm is just... You can name three Beyonce songs. No, I know. No, I'm exaggerating. But like

it's the degree to which I used to be plugged into certain things and now just like very very much not is something. You're plugged into enough. Also speaking of Kirsten Dunstan Netflix, we should also mention the Jane Campion movie.

Heck yeah. Heck, yeah, that's going to be at New York Film Festival, which I am fingers crossed, hopefully going to be accredited for. If anybody listening to this loves our podcast and has any sway over who gets accredited for New York Film Festival, please let me in. I am begging at the door. So that we can see the Jane Campion, which we can also hopefully see at Toronto, and maybe it'll be Kirsten Dunst's first Oscar nomination. I mean, I feel like Charlie Brown with the football with Kirsten Dunstan Oscar nominations. I'm just like, at some point, I'm going to, like, just let it happen unexpectedly.

I don't know. I don't know. So, do you want to move on to the IMDB game? Let's do it. All right. Would you like to explain the IMDB game to listeners, new and old? Yeah, you guys, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game. It's a thing where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress and try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for in that little section that says known for.

If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we will tell that part-tell each other up front, just to be fair. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. Fantastic. That's the IMDB game. Where'd you like to give or guess first? I'll give first. All right, cool. Whomst do you have for me?

So we talked about Terrence Davies earlier. You mentioned that perhaps the outlier or the sort of celebrated, if not disaster, but a headscratcher, I guess, among them is the Neon Bible. Which stars, among others, the great General Rollins. We've never done Generalins for an IMD game. The icon Generalins. So I give you General. Okay. I feel like the likelihood of her known for pissing me off is high. However, she was Oscar nominated for a woman under the influence, so I'm going to guess that that is there. Correct. A woman under the influence. A woman under the influence.

I would have absolutely shit a brick. I know. One of the greatest screen performances of all time, period. Okay, the notebook. The notebook. Very good. Well guessed. This is where I'm like how much Casavetes will show up.

And I'm going to say, I'm just going to be mad and that there is no other Cassavetes. Do you think Cassavetes is the rival house to Cassa Zeta Jones? Do you think that's how it works? What would they sell? What would be in... Valium? I don't know.

Cigarettes. Cigarettes. Just cartons of cigarettes. Ashtrays. Yeah. Ibuprofen. Yeah. I fucking love Casabetti's.

I need to finish the Casavetti's movies I haven't seen. Okay. What is that movie that we have dabbled in doing that she was SAG nominated for Unhook the Stars? Unhook the Stars, which we should definitely do at some point. It is not correct. That's not the correct answer, but yes, unhooked the Stars. Strike one. Wait, wait, no.

No, there is another Cassavetes on here where she's. She is the titular role. It's got to be Gloria. It is not, in fact, Gloria. Strike two. Fuck. The CASA did not serve you well there. All right.

So your two remaining answers are from the years, 1998 and 2005. 98 and 2005. Is 98 playing by heart? I thought that was 99. Playing by heart is 98, but it is not playing. playing by heart. It's Hope Floats. It is, in fact, her performance as Sandra Bullock's mother in Hope Floats, where she says to

Sandra Bullock, shake the stink off you. Which is a great line. Okay, so the 05 movie is after the Notebook. Yes. So she's playing some type of old. lady yes huh this is a

film I saw in a theater do you think I saw it in a theater it's very possible what's revelatory about seeing it in a theater no like would I not expect you to have seen it in a theater no I'm just sort of relaying that experience that I saw it in

theater it is in fact the only one of these four movies that I saw in a theater Oh. Okay. It co-stars an Oscar-nominated actress from a film we have discussed in this episode. Not the House of Mirth, I'm guessing. No.

A film we've talked about this episode, so it's, I'm guessing, a 2000 Oscar nominee. was that actress nominated in 2000. Do you want me to say? Yes, I'm trying to do. Yes. I didn't know whether you were working this out aloud or whether you were asking question. Oh, no, no, no, no, Joan Allen.

I would believe Joan Allen. It is not Joan Allen. Not Joan Allen. Joan Allen, she's in the notebook with, but we've already correctly. Oh, yeah. Duh. Well, see?

I was right somewhere. Not O5 Julia Roberts. Ellen Burstyn? No. Okay. Not O5 Lorellini. Maybe it's supporting. Francis McDormant?

Not Francis. Kate Hudson. Perhaps. Kate Hudson and 05. Is it like raising Helen? No, not raising Helen. The fact that you haven't gotten it by now tells me you did not probably see this movie in the theater. Or perhaps never.

I'm trying to go through. It's not Alex and Emma. Is it Skeleton Key? It is the Skeleton Key. Have you seen this movie? I remember that movie being bad and fun. It is both of those things at the same. in time. It is both bad and fun, and Jenna Rollins is seemingly having a very good time in this

movie, I will say. Good for her. You get paid. She is a creepy old lady villain, and it is... I forgot she's the villain, and I can't place her in the movie, but it tracks that she's in it. Oh, you should watch The Skeleton Key. I will watch Women in Love. You will watch The Skeleton Key. We'll both come back and report to each other. I have to watch the movie that we're recording tomorrow. Yes. God, me too. That's right. I got to do that today. I'm fucking pissed about it too. Anyway, before we talk more about that and spoil the episode,

I have someone for you who, shockingly, we have not done. Potentially, me going easy on you, potentially, this could also be very, very difficult. Gillian Anderson was a runner-up for the New York Film Critics Circle in Best Actress. I have chosen for you the best actor winner in that year, Mr. Thomas Hanks. Oh, we've never done Tom Hanks. Father of Chet, husband, to Rita. How dare you that the very first descriptor you gave for Tom Hanks is father of Chet? How dare.

America's dad. I'm going to be as offended by that as, Anytime anybody describes an actress by who her husband is. He is famously the father to Chet, among many things. How dare you bypass... One of our finest living actor. His performance in that thing you do before you mentioned Chet. All right.

All right, Tommy Hanks. Tom Hanks. Well, I'm going to say Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump. I'm going to say... I mean, here's the challenge of Tom Hanks. And we've said this with some other IMDB game choices. He's in so many things, and he's so remembered for so many things that trying to find the four is challenging.

But he's also conceivable you could get a perfect score. That's the other thing is I don't want to, if I get this by getting the years, I'll feel like a failure. I feel like I need to try and like the goal here is to get it before I get the hints. All right. He's also a busy guy. So it's like maybe the years wouldn't. It might get you there faster, but maybe it wouldn't. Right.

Because, like, he's had a lot of busy years where he does a bunch of movies. Right. Right. But, like, eventually, you know. Yeah. Sure. Okay. Saving Private Ryan.

No. Okay. One more before I get the hints. All right. Philadelphia No Damn it! I'm so sorry

We are moving on to the years Your years are 1988, 1995 Of course And 2000 Of course, of course Of course

I almost guessed Castaway Before I guessed Caste Away And I should have Castaway Castaway Correct He's actually on his known for

He's there for a producing credit Yeah That's the other thing which, as you mentioned, when we did the Little Goldman last year for 2000, we did it this year for 2001, go back and listen, Castaway, not as good of a movie as I remembered, but Tom Hanks even better than I remembered. I was the one who really, really loved Castaway as a movie.

I thought once we got past a little, that shaky sort of opening stuff, I think the stuff on the island is so good that it completely makes me forget about everything else. in the movie. I think it's a great movie. Should have been nominated for more than it was. That should have been. He's amazing. In 1980, or sorry, 1988, he wishes he were big, and he's big.

A movie that says, what if you were big? It says, what if you were a child and wanted to have big boy sex with Elizabeth Perkins? And you do. That woman, I mean, it's a hacky joke by this point, but like, that woman genuinely is going to be in therapy for the rest of her life. And also his mother is traumatized. Traumatized. Genuinely, just like, Mercedes Rule. Mercedes Rule is so great in that movie.

Well, that was... Mercedes Rule only nominated when she won and should definitely have other Oscar nominees. Do you think she was splitting her own vote that year because she also got a bunch of attention for married to the mob that same year? And I wonder if... Possibly.

But I don't think she was even campaigned for Big. I don't think so. And I would be willing to bet that, It was more she just didn't get nominated for married to the mob. God, you talk about a makeup Oscar. Like, she's great in the Fisher King, but, like, she doesn't win for the Fisher King if she doesn't, she doesn't have a, like, she should have, you know, she had a lot of momentum leading up to that, I will say, the years leading up to that. I mean, Lost and Yonkers is a forgotten movie. I'm pretty sure she has a Tony for it.

That's a big, big, big part of it. Yep. But, like, she's fucking amazing. That scene on the phone in Big is a crusher. It's an absolute crusher, and it makes that movie. For as much as that movie is about a fantasy and is about the keyboard tap dance and Hank's being amazing,

I think Big is a little bit less remembered if you don't have the sort of the salt with the sweet, which is that phone conversation, which is just devastating. It's absolutely devastating. Anyway, 1995. One of our finest Mercedes rule. Yeah.

1995 is Apollo 13. It is Apollo 13. A movie that I keep intending to go back and watch again. But I just haven't found the time. I have seen it many times because it is my spouse's favorite movie. Oh, that's adorable. Is it your favorite Ron Howard? I mean, it feels like it's many people's,

feels like it's many people's favorite Ron Howard. I do think it's a good movie. Yeah. Like, I'll stick up for that movie. Yeah. I mean, the closest thing. to like a gay Ron Howard movie is Splash. And I haven't seen Splash in a while.

So I don't know if I could really fully defend it. There's got to be some queerness in Willow. Maybe. I don't know. Joanne Wally Kilmer is pretty like, yes, queen in that. I don't know. All right. I think that's our episode.

I think that's our episode. You guys, if you want more this had Oscar buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscurbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore or Buzz. Joseph, tell the lovely listeners where they can find more of you and wish you a belated happy birthday. Oh, you don't have to do that. But you can find me on Twitter if you want to at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. I also need to get back on the horse with letterboxed. I've been Delta variant has kept me away from too many movies in the past few weeks, and that's a bummer.

So anyway, letterboxed Joe Reed, read-spelled R-E-I-D. I am also on Twitter and letterboxed at Christy. That is F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility,

even though they suck. So write us a nice review and about how every time you listen, we play these elaborate games. That's all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye. Everyone's a winner, baby, that's no lie. It's no lie. You never fail to satisfy.

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