This Had Oscar Buzz - 165 – The Counselor

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

There are few names in modern literature with more prestige than Cormac McCarthy, and his work has been adapted into the likes of Best Picture winner No Country for Old Men. For his first produced original screenplay, he partnered with one of the most prestigious names in movies and our most discussed director, Ridley Scott. Together … Continue reading "165 – The Counselor"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. You may think there are things that these people are simply incapable of. There are not.

I'll try and remember that. Good. That's a nice ring. Have you said it eight? Not yet. You should be careful what you wish for, Angel. Because we all have secrets. I have something to discuss with you when I'm a bit scared. If you pursue this road, you will eventually come to moral decisions that will take you completely by surprise. What do you think I should do?

I don't know, consular. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that runs the Last American Glove Factory. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host. Joe Reed, I'm here as always with Myrower. My prized cheetah, Chris Fyle.

Hello, Chris. What happened to the other cheetah? Yeah, well, it's a long story. She has two cheetahs. Did I think the other cheetah? Well, I couldn't have called you My Prized Cheetahs, because that would have been weird. So it's only, you are, you are worth two cheetahs, is what I will say.

Okay, that's better. Both with, like, diamond-encrusted collars. Mm-hmm. And you have my spots tattooed all over your back. Yes. And when I give you commands, it's with a thick Barbados Ptois that turns out to be very problematic. In the original, from what we have understood by Hollywood Reporter articles co-written by Merle Ginsburg, we have heard that Cameron Diaz is... Whatever happened to Merle Ginsburg, she's doing like 100-word pieces.

for the Hollywood Reporter. The Yelp that I left out, that I let out, when I looked up where the report first came, the Cameron Diaz had to overdub her original dialogue because it was too thick in whatever. Her Barbados accent was too thick. To find out that that article in the Hollywood Reporter was co-by-lined by Merle Ginsberg, famous of the first two seasons of Rupal's Drag Race, I howled. and immediately sent it to you. So, yeah, that was the word.

Has Ruh Paul seen the counselor? The specific term that that article said was, people thought she sounded too much like Rihanna, which is fantastic. In fairness, half of Cameron Diaz's dialogue is a yeah, yeah, yay. You can say whatever. Unana. No pain is forever.

Right, right. I mean, we're going to talk about Cameron Diaz a lot. in this episode. So like, let's not, let's not blow it all right now. But there's a lot to talk about. My expectations going into this movie in 2013 were pretty much like 99% Cameron Diaz-based. I was very, very excited for her in this movie. And I was disappointed, I will say. So was this your first watch of this movie? It was mine. Oh, was it really? Oh, no, I definitely saw it back when it first came out. I was very, very into

the concept of this movie. Oh, this was your first time. This is very interesting because, like, this is kind of notorious on, like, a few levels. So you had a lot of pre-expectations, I imagine, going in. Oh, absolutely. I wasn't... Maybe it missed me when this movie came out

that this is kind of... I guess you forget that the Cormac-McCarthy side of it is even going to be true in a screenplay he writes that it's like everybody talks elliptically in metaphors in these grand themes and you can't necessarily follow what's happening because there is nothing expositional whatsoever. This is an incredibly sort of gritty crime drama that essentially plays out as a series of one-on-one meetings with Michael Fastbender and like various cogs within this like drug empire and each person he talks to

goes on a like 20 minute sort of elliptical musing about the universe. And it's just like, and its main characters will do this, but then like the supporting cast is incredibly well populated because it's like, who am I going to get to go on this monologue about the nature

of goodness and man? And it's like, hello, Bruno Gans. Yeah, right, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, It is, the Cormac McCarthy of it all really, really comes through. The thing about the movie, for as much as I don't care about the story at all, and I don't know if necessarily the filmmakers need you to care about the movie very much at all, but, like, truly the point in this movie where I absolutely am just like,

I'm giving up on trying to understand what's happening here, was very early. but scene number two but it gives you for a movie that's i think i would say mediocre and disappointing it gives you like four or five really indelible scenes that like that's better than a lot of movies give that's better than most mediocre movies give like i am never going to forget at least three or four things that happen in this movie although you're certainly not going to forget uh one thing that happens in this movie Can I maybe take the opportunity to shock you? Yeah.

Or be predictable. You loved it. I fucking loved it. Of course you did. Of course you did. I mean, like, I maybe loved, what made me love it more is like all of the things that are pretentious and obnoxious about the Cormack. I mean, it would have to. There's no other way to love this movie.

It's like those things that should put me off that. I find pretentious and annoying while I'm watching it. Nevertheless, I was undeterred in loving it. And it kind of made me love. I was like, I should be hating this, but I am not. I do have a lot of reservations about the optics of this movie. I think this is another movie that, like, you know, wants to present Mexico as, you know, this horrifying, you know. This was a thing I wanted to.

to talk about, and we'll get into it on the other end of the plot description. But yes, we'll definitely discuss that. Cormac McCarthy has a boner for stereotyping Mexico as purely just a crime-ridden country that I find offensive. Beyond that... It's not just Cormac McCarthy, but yes. Like, he's not alone in the Hollywood landscape about this, and I want to talk about that. This is the thing that makes me not, like, Sicario as much, Chris, I swear to God, we'll get into all of this. Please, like, just, like, put a pin in it. I swear.

We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. But, um, yeah, I mean, that was my big reservation about the movie. Otherwise, like, I was kind of, uh, really admiring the fact that this is a giant studio movie that gets away with a lot of, it feels like, yes, everybody involved knows they're pulling a fast one. Yes. And I kind of respect that in a really big way. I do too. The things that you talk about really liking in this movie are not the reasons why I don't like this movie. I want to like that's to be clear. My, I think my ultimate, and it's not like I hate this movie, but ultimately I'm unsatisfied by it. And I think it's because all of that sort of ornamentation is hung

onto a story that feels my thing is if you're going to turn this whole thing into a rumination into a series of ruminations on what like a person's inherent naivety or um hubris in entering sort of this like criminal element and entering a world in which he is not equipped to operate which is sort of the thing that's it's saying. about Michael Fastmender's character. I think what undergirds it is so empty and so, um, not hacky, but like, it's every fucking, you know, drug empire movie I've seen for the last 20 years. So like, ultimately, the rest of it does, to me, come across as ornamentation on something

that is otherwise very, very typical. And I think there's something true to that. And to me, what is happening is that it is somewhat. exposing Cormac McCarthy, that, like, the, you know, very visible themes of his work and, like, his big ideas about human existence, you know, human hubris and human suffering is, you know, it can be really, it's praised, you know, to the heavens everywhere and, like, sometimes it can be a little thin. And I think Ridley Scott knows that and is like unafraid to say to like, you know. I just don't think Ridley Scott gives a shit. Like, you know what I mean? It's just like, oh, okay, but like I'm going to put forth the visuals that I feel like this movie is calling for.

And I don't think Ridley Scott super cares that there's not a whole lot at the center of this movie. I don't think Ridley Scott super cares about the plot of this movie. I mean, Ridley Scott, it's like. Like, this is, like, Ridley Scott's Julie Tamor movie. Yeah. The counselor is, like, a production of Titus Andronicus set in a Versace ad. It is, like, it is supposed to be gauche and, like, superficial to this extreme that is, like, an alien planet, you know. But, like, getting to that level of extremity is also maybe getting to a certain level of truth.

that, like, you know, Cormac McCarthy is reaching for, but I think is on the thinner side. Or just, like, you know, so obtuse. It's funny that you mention that you mentioned Versace because in no less than two articles that I, that I, sorry, in no less than two reviews of this movie that I read

as I was preparing for this. Manola Dargis compares I'm pretty sure it was Manola Dargis compares Manola liked it I read Manola Yeah she did she was one of the ones who liked it And she compares Cameron Diaz's character To living in some sort of like Donatello

Versace fantasy and then I read Wesley Morris's review which is still up Because Grantland is still the archives of that are still up And he also liked it And he talked about Javier Bardem's character As looking as if he survived a new leader meltdown at the Versace plant, which made me laugh quite a bit. But that's not true of his character, because, like, his character is so, yeah. Yeah, but see, I disagree. What it is with that

character is that he is the type of grifter, wannabe crime lord, and also, like, tacky person that it's like, he'll wear a Versace shirt with a Louis Vuitton belt and a Gucci set of pants and, like, Dulce and Gabana sunglasses, so that it's all just exclamation points. Right. It's funny to see him, the Cormac McCarthy through line of him from No Country for Old Men, where he plays the sort of like elemental reality of pitiless evil. And now to this, he is playing just this avatar of tacky, like, criminal weakness. You know what I mean?

Like he's such a, he's so, he's as in over his head as anybody else in this movie. That's one of the, one of the actual interesting things about this movie is you get characters like Javier Bardams or Brad Pitt's, who have these long scenes with Michael Fastbenter where they're really sort of like condescending to him and they're being like, well, you're really fucked up now. You're in over, like you are, you know, you're going to get sort of, you know, what's coming to you for jumping into this without knowing what you're doing. And then both of them get, like, get got.

in ways that expose them as being in over their heads, too. And that's sort of what I like. That, at the very least, these faux mentors who turn out to be, like, not a very much help to Michael Fassbender's character at all end up, you know. And in stories like these, you know, the middlemen always get what's coming to them anyway. So I guess it's not that surprising. But it's certainly Brad Pitt's death scene. I know when we were talking about, like, the indelible moments in this movie,

and, like, you were definitely talking about Cameron Diaz is flicking the car. And, like, yeah, I was, too. But, like, Brad Pitt's death scene in this movie is going to be living in my head for the rest of my days. And it's... Apparently, the unrated version is even longer. Oh, God. His death scene takes forever. So, this is what I love about it, though.

Because, and it's classic, like, Chekhov, like, we're going to describe this Bolito, device in the first 10 minutes of the movie and then it just sort of like sits there in the recess of your brain because the way that Bardem's character describes it you're like wait how does that work in practice what's like what would that look like and then the end of the movie of course you see it and it's been like festering in the back of your head

for all this time and if you're anything like me and are like sort of like an extreme empath with movies and you always sort of like put yourself in the position of whatever character is at the center of the scene and you're like, what would I do if I were in this scene? And anything in a movie that's about crime or drugs or whatever, I'm always just like, oh, I would like find the quickest way out of this. You know what I mean? Like, that's sort of what I would do. And I think the thing about the Brad Pitt death scene in this, like the baseline terror of it is like, as soon as it's over your neck, you're dead before you know it. And you have to like,

and it takes a few minutes, but there's nothing you can do. There's absolutely no escape from this. There's nothing that you could be like, well, if he would have just done this, like, he would be fine. No. The thing that he could have done differently was, like, not get out of bed that morning. Like, that's the thing. That's the only way he could have gotten out of it. And the fact that, like, and I think Brad Pitt plays that scene so well, where he literally is just like, just like yelling in frustration and kind of like sitting on the ledge of this building in like, almost like, you're like, waiting for it to saw his fingers off and then saw his neck off. And he's got this posture of like this fucking day you know what i mean like as his like upper torso is like

struggling whatever he's sort of sitting on the at the this uh you know the stoop of this building and the posture is just sort of just like i can't believe this you know what i mean it's just like it's great it's so great like i mean i guess thematically too this like device makes complete sense too because it's like once it's already around your neck the decision has been made. It cannot be reversed. You are already setting this into motion. And that's like...

That's Fastbender's story in this movie. A reflection of Fastbender's entire story in this movie. It's like you enter this life of crime. Guess what? Your entire fate is sealed and you cannot escape that. So like it's not just this uber violent scene for its own sake, I guess. Right, right.

Which feels like I'm way more inclined to credit. what I like this about this movie to Ridley Scott than I am to Cormack McCarthy. Same. Yes. Because like, even just like the aesthetics of it that we were talking about, it's like, I don't think that's a Cormac

McCarthy choice. I think right, you know, and like, you'd probably give this to someone else and they'd be like, oh, it's a we're going to make it another. Western this type of crime movie. But like, instead he turns it into, Ridley Scott

makes this movie that's like flora, not even fluorescent, but like this bold cornucopia of excess and perversion. It looks like a series of very expensive like Puff Daddy music

videos from the 19, like the late 1990s, early 2000s, and I don't mean that as a pejorative. Like there is a, there is a lot of like music video aesthetics to everything. It's like if Hype Williams was really depressed. Yes. If Hipe Williams was like really like contemplative about the nature of human beings.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's get into the plot before we get too far into it because I want to get into that. But like there's a lot of ephemera about this that like I want to get into as well about Cormac McCarthy, Ridley Scott, Cameron Diaz, Michael Fastbender. There's a lot. There's a lot to go around and I want to get to it as quickly as possible. The sex scenes.

Yes. Exactly. So we're talking about 2013's The Counselor, directed by Ridley Scott, written by Cormick McCarthy in his first original screenplay. This was not a novel originally. First that was produced. He's had some that have published apparently, but like this is, I mean, maybe you see why. This is the first one that's produced. Yes.

But yeah, not originally a novel. This was written directly for the screen, starring Michael Fastbender as the titular counselor. He is not known by any other names. Penelope Cruz, Cameron Diaz, Javier Bardem, Brad Pitt, Rosie Perez, Edgar Ramirez, as a hot priest, Bruno Gans, Natalie Dormer, Ruben Bladis. It premiered on October 25th, 2013. Chris, I'm going to haul up my little stopwatch and challenge you in one minute. We'll see how this goes.

I am very, very happy that it is you doing the plot of this movie, and not me. Are you ready? Much to my hubris, I was like, oh, awesome. I get to do the 60-second blog description for the counselor. Good luck. I'm an idiot. That's not something to be excited for. This is impossible.

All right. Are you ready? Sure. And begin. Okay, so Michael Fastbender plays a lawyer known only as a counselor. He's basically just this fancy pants lawyer for shady criminals and drug dealers. And he asked his girlfriend, Laura, played by Penelope Cruz, to marry him. And he gets a massive diamond.

And apparently he's really great at sex stuff. Anyway, meanwhile, he's going half-sease on a shipment of Coke with Reiner, played by an electrocuted Javier Bardem. Reiner's girlfriend, shall we say, car enthusiast Malchina, played by Cameron Diaz, and voiced by another Cameron Diaz, hatches a plan to steal their drugs and their money for herself. This results in the beheading of a drug cartel member that implicates the counselor, and, like, everyone has to go on the run, including Laura, who's kidnapped and also beheaded, unbeknownst to the counselor who runs away to Mexico. Reiner is then shot in this massive shootout and also Reiner's associate Westray

Basically Brad Pitt and a cowboy hat Has important bank code stolen from him by one of Malconi Malkina's plants And he is also beheaded in broad daylight The counselor is still hiding in Mexico And then receives a snuff film of Laura presumably being beheaded And Malky gets away with him And she gets away with everything

Except she has to like give up her two cheetahs Has to, yes her two cheetahs who who are lost amid the Javier Bardem assassination. They start roaming the desert never to be found again. Yeah. The cheetahs are a metaphor I don't understand.

Cameron Diaz gets to end this movie incredibly wealthy and also staring into the handsome face of Goran Vizhnik. So good for her. But Cheetahless. But Cheetahless, yes. She's lost her cheetahs, but she's gained many, many millions

of dollars. Yeah. When this trailer first came out, and there's like, there's the shot of the cheetah, there's the shot of her sort of prowling on the hood of the car in anticipation of the scene where she fucks the Ferrari. And then you also get a glimpse of the cheetah print tattoo on her. And I literally was like, is she playing Cheetah from the Thundercats in this? Like, does she become a cheetah at the end of this movie? Is she like a reincarnated cheetah? Is that what's happening here? Because like she's very, the visual language of that trailer.

She's just like, but like all of the visual language of her is very much like feline animal. She's sort of she's lying in weight. She is pouncing when the time is right. She is the one who sort of like fucks this all up for all of the male characters around her. She is the reason why everybody who dies in this movie dies. and it's watching that trailer, I was so excited. I was like, this is what we've been waiting for.

She had been shunned by the Oscars so many times, being John Malkovich and Vanilla Sky, and even for things like she wasn't really buzzed for that we loved, we covered in her shoes many, many moons ago on this podcast, and we've both said, I think, that it's her best performance in that movie, and I would stand by that. So going into this movie, it's 2013, there is kind of, she's, you could envision, at least, a world in which a we owe Cameron Diaz and Oscar nomination thing happens.

And I look at that trailer, and I'm like, this is it, we've got it. It's Cormac McCarthy, who's still got the shine from No Country for Old Men on him. It's Ridley Scott, who is like certainly not a sure thing, but like has succeeded enough times to feel like this is within the realm of possibility. It's clearly a juicy character. This is a supporting actress nomination waiting for it. She's going to be great, obviously. This role is going to be so much fun. And then the movie happens.

The reviews are terrible. We find out that her vocal performance was so bad. that she had to end up redubbing her lines. And for as much as I sometimes find her affect successful in this role, there are just as many times where I'm just like, I would have tried that again. I would have given this scene another shot. Okay, here's the thing.

First of all, we don't know that it was bad, just that test audiences didn't like it. Can't imagine why you would do a test screening for this movie. what is a test audience going to like at all in this movie? All right, but like Chris, answering me honestly, would you have preferred this performance with a thicker Barbados accent from her? It's hard.

I mean, honestly, I think it's really hard to say. Okay. Because you don't have to tell somebody that she had to ADR her lines because the ADR in this movie is bad. It's bad. And you can tell that she was upset to be having to do it because you can tell they didn't spend much time doing the ADR. So it's like we

don't, it feels like, I don't want to use a phrase like defangs because she literally has a gold incisor in this movie. Is that the right tooth? I don't know. Yeah. Yes. I think so. The eye tooth, right? Your dog tooth. But like, ironically. You can tell we're not watching the performance as it's supposed to be. That's why I joked. It was played by Cameron Diaz and voiced by another Cameron Renn Diaz. Right. But, like, even if you watch this movie on mute, right, and you looked at just like her facial expressions and physicality, even on that level, it's an inconsistent performance

from scene to scene. There are sometimes we're just like... I do think she's probably miscast or like, it's just not clicking. It's just not clicking. I feel like it's just not clicking. Yes. But I do also feel like it's a performance I can't fully judge because... Sure.

She's trying to give a vocal. quality that like even if it was silly like what isn't fucking silly in this movie like look at Javier Bardem he is like Brian Grazer on Luzz right there's if there's anything distracting in this movie it's every single time Javier Berdem walks on screen no that's I don't disagree with that all I'm saying is even within the realm of I want her to be showy I want her to be gaudy in this it doesn't always work And I wish it did. I would have been first in line to be like Cameron Diaz secret masterpiece.

You're all out of your mind. You all missed this. Like, I would love to be that guy. But I can't get there with this. I feel like it's impossible because we don't. I mean, like, a vocal quality is as much important as a physicality to a performance. I'm like, we're just not seeing it. And also, like, and Ridley Scott reportedly was also pissed about being forced to do this.

So it's like, I don't know. I don't know. I feel like. Do you think he had to fight? Do you think he had to fight to keep them from making Lady Gaga overdub her House of Gucci? Okay, show of hands. Who's off book for the House of Gucci trailer? It is the defining event of our lifetime until we get the rest of House of Gucci.

But yes. But like that to me is a very similar thing. The House of Gucci trailer did kind of remind me of watching the counselor trailer and how much I was, how delicious I find. Cameron Diaz in the counselor trailer is how delicious I find Lady Gaga in the House of Gucci trailer. And so- I realize that there, with the House of Gucci trailer, there was a lot to process. But I do think that we moved on too quickly from the fact that she says the words synonymous with that dialect. She says a lot of words.

I think that's the key thing, is that like in the counselor trailer, I don't think they let Cameron Diaz's character say anything. And, like, Lady Gaga talks a lot in the house of Gucci trailer. So maybe I'm more optimistic because of that. It's time to take out the trash. Yes. But the counselor as an object sort of is the thing that's keeping me from being, like, we got a slam dunk in Gucci.

Because, like, Gucci could go bad, like, counselor went bad. So, you never know. You never know. Well, I'm keeping myself. It has done multiple movies in a single year. Yeah. And it's made off for him before. So let's talk about the Ridley Scott thing while we're on the subject then.

So this is our fourth Ridley Scott film. It's the most, he's our most covered director by this point. So we've done 1492 Conquest of Paradise, which was one of our very, very first movies that we covered long enough ago that I already, once again, don't really remember much about it. So that history has corrected us. We talked as much about that Enigma song as we talked about the movie. That's right. Hannibal, the sequel to The Silence of the Lambs that neither one of us likes very much. And then the incredibly just wayward and why was this made Exodus Gods and Kings.

So of the four Ridley Scott movies that we've covered, this is probably my favorite, but there's a little bit of a by default to it, I would say, right? Yeah, I mean, we cover the bad Ridley Scott movies on this podcast. That's sort of our thing. That's sort of our thing. All right. So at this point in his- To the point that I had originally thought, well, next year, we should do a Ridley Scott miniseries. but because he has two movies coming out in two months within each other, it feels like...

This was the time to do it. Yeah, this is the time to talk about Ridley Scott. So at this sort of stage of his career, I don't want to go through the whole Ridley Scott career back to, like, Blade Runner and whatever, because, like, that's, it's a long career. But so his last sort of Oscar success before this movie, before the counselor, he had gotten a supporting actor. actress nomination for Ruby D for American Gangster in 2007. But even that that one had ambitions that were

a lot bigger than just a supporting actress nomination, right? Like Denzel doesn't get nominated, it doesn't get picture director, and those were definitely in the hopes and dreams for Universal for American gangster. So that wasn't really

so much. The last real Oscar success for him was obviously Gladiator winning Best Picture in 2000, and then him getting a follow-up best director nomination for Black Hawk Down in 2001. So, like, that was the last sort of hurrah for Ridley Scott before the counselor. Now, we're two years shy of The Martian being like the Ridley Scott Oscar comeback project, right? So, although he, did he not get the director nomination for The Martian?

Am I remembering that right? I'm going to look it up, but I think that is one time, no, I think, I think, I think Gladiator is the only time that his movies are nominated for picture and director. He did not get a director nomination for The Martian, which was considered, like, one of the big snubs. It was a surprise. I wasn't surprised at the time. I was, actually, because I think the Martian was projecting as one of the stronger contenders that year. And it had done so well in the precursor season.

And I was like, and it's Ridley Scott. So I was definitely expecting that to happen. I think the whole Globes comedy thing, whether or not, you, I don't. don't want to get into is that movie a comedy was that stupid what i do ultimately think it did is it positioned the movie in a certain type of way and invited people to consider it in a type of way that movies don't get director nominations for well that's an interesting point yeah so previous to the counselor his most recent films had been robin hood the the russell crow cape blanche at robin hood in 2010 that like it existed and yet

I never saw it and I don't I have never seen that movie and nobody ever talks about it nobody like they've made Robin Hood seemingly 17 times since this movie and nobody talks about this Robin Hood and then 2012 Prometheus which like you talk about a movie where the trailer had me amped like the trailer for Prometheus holy fuck yeah had me so excited the visuals looked amazing it was Like, we were sort of coming out of the muck of the alien versus predator stuff. And it's just like, no, like, this is, Ridley Scott is back, where we're, you know, going back to basics. And it looked astounding. And the finish product of Pramideon, this, I know that movie has some high profile defenders.

I wish I could be one of them. And it just didn't work for me. And it works more for me now than it did at the time. And I think it's because we were. expecting, you know, more traditional alien. And he, he would go even further afield with Alien Covenant. Yes. Which is in some ways, in some ways I find Covenant better and in some ways I find Covenant

worse. So. It's even, it's even fucking weirder than Prometheus. But, like, Prometheus in this movie, both kind of create this, you know, these paired movies about Hupris. And I don't know. Maybe I'm talking myself into liking the counselor. even less, but, like, Prometheus, I think, ultimately, is a more, it's just as much of a blunt

instrument in, like, how hubristic these people behave. Oh, very. A very blunt instrument in that. And I think, but in that way, maybe it's a little bit more successful than the counselor is. That's possible. Regardless of how you or I individually think about Prometheus, though, like, it was universal, like, in a global sense, it was a disappointment. Like, fans... People were not satisfied. didn't like, like fans and critics alike were, you know, muted at best in their, in their appreciation of Prometheus. So Ridley Scott was kind of at a, I don't, I don't want to say a low period, because ultimately, like, he doesn't give a shit. You know what I mean? He immediately turns around and gets to shit away, however many hundreds of million dollars on Exodus gods and

kings, which no one cares about. Absolutely no one cares about that. But then the Martian in 2015 and then like the success story that becomes of all the money in the world like snatched from the jobs of defeat. Also in the same year as Alien Covenant. Right. Right. But in terms of Oscar, the story is all the money in the world. And he comes out of that one kind of smelling like a rose because this movie that looked like it had been left for dead ends up doing a lot better than anybody thought it would. And so I think a lot of that. I've argued that it's a lot better of a movie than people think it is. you have argued that. I don't hate it. I'll leave it at that. And so that's the last

that we had seen of Ridley Scott, you know, on film at least for the last four years. And now all of a sudden, two movies about to get released in the thick of Oscar season, the last duel, which is, of course, naturally a Ben Affleck and Matt Damon movie written by Nicole Hall of Center, about a duel that happens because Jody Comer, who is married to Affleck? Damon.

I believe. One of them. I can never remember. You guys, I can never remember. They both have soul patches in this movie. And soul patches and bowl cuts. That's all you need to know. She is married to Matt Damon.

She is sexually assaulted by Adam Driver? Is that it? And then Matt Damon challenges Adam Driver to a duel while Jody Comer is like why are you doing this? This is only making things harder for me.

You're only putting my life in danger by doing this. Stop this and he won't because he's a man. So that's sort of the idea of the last duel. There's a lot of raised eyebrows about this movie, but people were generally very, very pleased with the trailer. and there is now... Judi Comer looks great.

That's what everybody says. By the time that this episode airs, it will have played Venice. We don't know what the Venice response will be because we're recording this before the premiere. Right. I think other people are more optimistic about this movie after the trailer than I am, but I am willing to be proved wrong. It is 152 minutes, as is now currently listed.

It might change if the reception is unfavorable, otherwise you are getting two and a half hours of terrible haircuts on Matt and Ben so and apparently like a Rashimon-esque structure

that you know changes the point of view of characters as it gives their perspectives so I am really there is the potential for it to be a nightmare I am interested I am not

necessarily sold on it, but I am definitely interested. I am much more excited, let's say, about House of Gucci. Because even if House of Gucci is bad, it is probably going to be bad in a way that I will enjoy. If it's going

to be bad, it's going to be Ridley Scott's Scarface. That's what I keep saying this movie looks like to me, not just because there's like disco scenes and like, I do also just love how Stephanie has, you know, constantly gone back to, you know, the anecdote is when she was at NYU.

She was constantly given Marissa Tomey scenes to do. I love that. I'm just happy that she's returning to her roots and giving a Marissa Tomei performance. Here's what I'll say. The fact that this is a, based on a true story, and like we'll use based, like, we're going to put a lot of energy into the word based. like that it's going to do a lot of work in that in that sentence right um about like crime and murder and betrayal in a very very wealthy italian family right so like in that way it the concept of it brings me to all the money in the world a little bit right which is also about

crime and scandal within an incredibly wealthy and closed off family and so if house of Gucci is all the money in the world, but with a more talented leading man, which I will take Adam Driver any day of the week over Mark Wahlberg. Absolutely. And more fun, which it certainly seems to be from the trailer, unless the trailer is full online to us. Like, even if, like, okay, the people that think that this is like bona fide guaranteed Oscar movie, I think they maybe need to take a knee for a minute.

It could be. but it's not guaranteed. It could be, but like, that trailer did not sell me as such. I mean, but I think regardless, we're going to have a good-ass time at this movie. Yes. I will say the thing I think we may be, and I apologize to my listeners that I'm about to make scream, the thing I think everybody just needs to brace themselves for, prepared to happen this season, is another Jared Leto nomination.

I was going to say. That's the thing that I got from that trailer. I was like, oh, boy, we got another Jared Letto Award season ahead of us. This is not going to be fun. When they released those character posters, and I looked at them, and I literally was like, I did not know Jeffrey Tamber was in this movie. Because Jared Leto looks with, like, with the facial prosthetics and everything that he's made up for it, he looks like Jeffrey Tambor.

He just does, at least in that trailer. a character primed to be the one who is going the hugest with the voice, his dialect is the most ridiculous in this. The fact that we got so close to getting... He's not going to get pushback for it. The fact that he came so close to a nomination for the little things tells me that, like, Oscar voters do not feel the same way about Jared Lito

the way that a lot of us do. So, like, there is not any kind of aversion to him among them. So, yes, I think there is... I think he has the best shot of that cast at this moment of getting an Oscar domination. I think Lady Gaga does have a good shot, but the reviews have to be great for her. They do. And like my fear this whole time after a star is born is like everybody's going to be on board. And then the next time, especially if she goes big in a way, they're going to try to slap her down.

We've seen that with so many, especially musical stars who get. down through the history of the cinema. Like, it's just something that if she can avoid it happening, I think she will be golden for a nomination. Meanwhile, we got to see what this movie is. I will sit in my corner and be content to just be the person being like, guys, Adam Driver is very good. Like, you know what I mean?

He's been a Gucci all his life. I love him. And I genuinely, I feel very confident in his hands in any. kind of a, in any kind of a role like this, I think he will be able to deliver it well. And it's interesting that he's in both of the, he's in both of the Ridley Scots. He's the connective tissue

of the Ridley Scott's fall movies this year. So, yeah, he's going to get, if he gets nominated, he'll get nominated for whichever one is the most boring in the same year that he should probably be getting nominated for Annette. Right.

And, God, what a year for Adam Driver. He's so good. You guys, he's so good. it's so funny the way that the general sort of cultural conversation lags behind sometimes a film Twitter for lack of a better term where I feel like this year I'm seeing a lot of like incredulous like people think Adam Driver is handsome and I'm like we've litigated this we litigated this years ago we went through it we made our peace with it Adam Driver is hot we've figured it out just like just catch up i don't know i don't know what to tell you people like the topography of his like chest muscles like it's a landscape it the constellation of his

facial moles like we know it his features he's a very large featured man and we've all decided that it's good and so this is settled this is settled law and I'm sorry, I don't know what to tell you. We've litigated it. We've been a Gucci all our lives. Yes. It's done. Not to whiplash from the crass to the somewhat serious, but the thing I wanted to revisit

before too long, the thing that we were talking about, about these movies like the counselor that sort of settle into this milieu of Mexican drug cartels, Latin American drug cartels, as kind of the new mafia, as the new sort of criminal enterprise that filmmakers are really fascinated by. And the counselor is very, very, very much within this framework. And it is not a thing. I want to make sure that I'm not being hypocritical here, because a lot of the things about this movie, that I find incredibly captivating and visually arresting and thrilling are things that have to do with the way Ridley Scott depicts

some of the more violent actions in this movie. The beheadings in this movie, the fact that there are three beheadings feels intentional, and the way he films two of them, like the Penelope Cruz thing at the end, we see in the aftermath and we're very, very sad by it, even though Penelope Cruz's character is not much more than a stock figure as far as I'm concerned.

Zero clue why Penelope's crew said, yes, I will play this nothing character. Exactly. But Brad Pitt's death scene and then also the beheading of the motorcyclist on the road are both incredibly memorable and really violent. And so I don't want to be like a hypocrite and say like it doesn't work on me or that I am not in some ways maybe part of the problem. But there is a way in which filmmakers, especially in the last 10, 15 years or so, have settled into this exoticism about Mexican drug cartels and the ways in which stories about them, they feel like they're given this license to really indulge in the barbarism and violence of what happens there. Now, whether this is based in, you know, factual reports, obviously things like Ciudad Juarez and the actual real-life drug cartels, like, there are reports about stuff like this. These kinds of things do happen. I'm not saying that this stuff is being, like, made up out of whole law.

What's the intention? Like, in this movie, it's more of like it uses that type of setting as a construct, right? It's this construct for, you know, a ceaseless amount of violence, you know, an expectation of violence, whereas like something like the Sicario sequel is way more overt in the specific things that it's doing. I'm not saying the counselor isn't offensive, but like I think it's more that the counselor is part of a general trend and landscape that I wanted to sort of call out because it does. it made me think about it a lot. I think it's not just the fact that this is sort of a stand-in for the world of crime. Because we've seen that with other, like I said, you see that with the mafia, you see that with movies that are about like Russian crime syndicates or whatever. But I think specifically the fact that movies and TV shows, because you've seen it with, you mentioned Sicario, Breaking Bad indulges in this, even a great movie, like I would say, no country for old men, uses the sort of, in a very sort of like element.

constant threat of violence from the drug trade coming up from Latin America and Mexico. So you see this a lot where it's not only just like this is the framework in which we're telling organized crime stories now. It is, again, it comes down to the exoticism of it and the ways in which you see it in this movie. The lack of humanity of presentation, you know, these aren't fleshed out characters. Right. The way where Brad Pitt's characters, like, these people operate on another level, man, they will, like, you know, and the ways in which, again, it's the barbarism of it, the way that, like, the othering. The fact that, like, you do not know, like, this is so far beyond, Sakario says it outright, too. It's just like, you are not prepared for the level of violence that this particular element is introducing. And again, you get it in shows like Breaking Bad, where it's like, oh, you know this person has. gone so far when now these, you know, the level of violence is being ratcheted up so much by the involvement with the South American cartels. You see it in weeds. You see it in just like

it, and it's more overt in some ways, and it's more casual in some ways. And I just think it's worth mentioning, because it does give me pause. And I am not a person who loves crime stories anyway. I'm much, much more apt to be weary of them and be sort of skeptical of them, but I think it's warranted here. I think it's warranted at least, like, taking a step back and being like,

why do we find this particular kind of violence so exotic in movies like this? And I don't know who to... I mean, like, I feel like it's a recurring thing for Cormac McCarthy, so I'm more prone to put the authorial voice on what

I find problematic about this movie onto at Gormac McCarthy. But, like, there's also this thing where, you know, no one's really a fully fleshed-out character in this, and that's partly the point. Like, Bruno Gans is just a diamond seller who monologues about diamonds. Right. But, like, it still doesn't avoid being offensive in that way. Like, it doesn't feel fully arbitrary.

It doesn't feel like it is... I don't think it's particularly virulent in this movie, but it's definitely there. And it is part of a trend as a whole that when you sort of take it as an accumulation of a lot of other movies, it does feel virulent. And it does feel like, again, and the first Sicario, at least, is a movie I like a lot of parts of. I don't hate that movie, but I think that aspect of it, the aspect of it that is, you know, Benicio del Toro's character sort of like, again, monologuing about how. And part of it is, I will also say, part of it is that a lot of these stories are told as a representation of this idea that the United States has meddled in things that they should not have been meddling in and have made situations worse by their involvement. And this is now chickens coming home to roost. And the violence of this, all of this, is chickens coming home to roost.

And so I get why that is a compelling story to tell because it is a thing that is still going on and it's a thing that speaks to America's character as a whole, right? So I get why the cranking up and really sort of like focusing on the levels of barbaric violence in those stories feels like a necessary thing to show because it ultimately is commenting, it ultimately points the finger back at the United States, right?

That this is... I think Sikario at least attempts to do that and how it's directed. I hate the script. Right. But like... I'm with you on that. My things that I like about Sikario

are the directing and Emily Blanc. But yes, we don't have to, like, relitigate Sikario. But yes, I agree. The sequel is way worse. It is one of the most expensive things I've seen the past few years. I didn't see it, so I'm fine. Don't. But I just, I, it's, you know, I'm not going to figure this all out in, in one little podcast discussion today. But I'm just saying it's a thing that, that is something you have to grapple with, yeah, counselor. And I think

the things that are like attempting to be obtuse and abstract and like, you know, you know, vague in the way that Cormac McCarthy is vague is like, it feels. It feels, feels like it's maybe giving itself an out, but it's also the exact same thing that kind of stumbles into the more problematic things about this movie. Right. So this is, in my

tally, the fourth major motion picture that is based on a Cormac McCarthy, either novel or screenplay, right? There was, we've actually covered one already. We did all the pretty horses, the 2000 movie directed

by Billy Bob Thornton. That was a huge Miramax hopeful in the year 2000 and really, really was not. That also starred Penelope Cruz. Then, oh, sorry, this would be the fifth because no country for old men also. No Country for Old Men is the success story. No Country for Old Men is why anything with Kornick McCarthy's name attached to it is going to be considered an Oscar contender, probably. Because that film winning Best Picture, somebody mentioned this on Twitter.

recently. And I think it's so true. We don't appreciate how atypical a best picture winner, no country for old men is, I feel like. And it was a completely bygone conclusion. And I think part of that was... Relatively quickly. Right. That's the kind of shocking thing. Probably the thing that made it such a foregone conclusion in that race is probably what... It sounds like it's a circular logic, but That's probably not a best picture winner, and you don't get an atypical winner like that if it's not a foregone conclusion, right? Yes, no, I agree. But like, how did it become that way?

Well, and the interesting thing is, I think for a long time, we didn't really see it for being the Oscar anomaly that it was because the narrative of no country for old men in the fall of 2007 was so strongly twinned with there will be blood. for whatever reason, in the ways that these narratives just sort of coalesce and happen, the idea happened very early that no country for old men was the square one, and there will be blood was the cool one, and there will be blood was seen as more daring, less accessible, more difficult to pull off and with a more dynamic lead performance. And so I think in many ways, especially among the critical community, there will be blood was seen as, oh, if only this could Hollywood's not, you know, we're not cool enough to let this thing win best picture. It's too daring. It's too whatever. Never mind the fact that the Oscars embraced that movie as much as

they embraced anything that year, right? But because no country for old men was the one winning these awards, that movie was painted, at least in comparison, as the comparatively square one, as the comparatively more typical one, the more mainstream one. And I think without that twinned narrative, I think it's much, much more easy and clear to see No Country for Old Men for being the daring movie that it is, for being the atypical best picture. Yeah, it definitely sell short the amount of people who were, you know, put off by the final act of that movie and especially like the ending of the movie. I mean, there were major critics at the time, especially when that movie debuted at Cannes, who had major issues with the scene where Josh Burlin is killed having a major issue that they saw it as a major narrative scene in the movie and it happens off screen. And it pissing. people off at it like when it took people a minute to like get perhaps on board yeah and I don't I'm not gonna be one of those people that says like oh well there will be blood is so

much cooler but what I do think is it is a stranger movie and in terms of Oscar it does help normalize a movie like no country four old men for stodgy or academy members I think that's probably true although it's wild to me that people would have been more satisfied with the ending of their will be blood, which to me, I love the ending of No Country for Old Men. And I think the sort of the loose ends nature of it, the fact that it ends with him having this, you know, relatively mellow conversation with Kelly McDonald's character, then wandering out into the street and then sort of being beset upon by happenstance and coincidence, and that's sort of how the movie ends, was dissatisfying to a lot

of people that it didn't end with a shootout, that it didn't end with good and evil having this great standoff. I love that about that movie. Because it's ploddy enough to mask that it is ultimately an allegorical movie, whereas there will be blood is just like pure allegory. Well, there will be blood goes in the total other way, whereas we're giving you the final confrontation of the two characters who have been at the center of this movie

and we're giving it to you in the most sort of like over the top like you want it you're fucking getting it you want these two characters to finally face off it's going to be this ugly and this bloody and this barbaric and this off the rails and to me

but if you interpret it purely on a plot level what's happening to these characters you're doing the movie wrong right like yes those two movies have interesting dualities in that way They do. I, like I said, I prefer the way no country for old men. And I think the ending of the Will Be Blood has always, to me, had this element of I don't know how to end this without going the most over the top.

And I get that, like, metaphorically, this idea that, like, wealth corrupts absolutely, and wealth will, you know, this kind of drive and wealth has poisoned. somebody to such a degree that their, you know, their violence is so ugly and untamed and uncontrolled. All this sort of stuff. It works for me. It's the two American beasts. It is religion, it's wealth by religion and it is wealth by capitalism. And they are the two forces in America, squaring off. And, yeah, it's only going to end in vines. There's a degree. There's a degree in my reaction to the end of There Will Be Blood, where I'm like, I get it, and then it goes on for another 10 minutes. So, but

that's me. That's, you know, whatever. I have a horse in this race, and I did. But, so anyway, after There Will Be Blood, they adapt the road. Who directed the road? Is it? John Hillcote.

Oh, boy. Right. So, what were his other movies? Now, sorry, I'm real time now. Lawless. Right. Lawless. a.k.a. The Wettest County, which, remember, that was the working title of that movie for the longest time,

The Wettest County? Yeah. They should have kept it. Not a good movie. Sorry, let me just look up the road really quickly. A movie we could do on this podcast, wouldn't. The Road? No, the road, I believe... Oh, yeah, Wettest County.

Yeah, it's a nominee somewhere. Was it really? Let me look. I'm looking up John Hillcote, too. Yeah, look up John Hillcote. John Hillcote also has the proposition was like the first one. Oh, God. God, this was it, Triple Nine.

Oh, God, that was him. Okay. Crazy. Yeah, I don't think the Road got any Academy Award nominations. The thing about the Road... Why did I think it was like a cinematography nominee? I don't know. Cinematography by Javier Agarisarob, who did a good job with that movie.

Like, it's a very handsome movie. The thing about the Road, as it was being anticipated, because it was obviously the follow-up to No Country for Old Men in terms of Cormick McCarthy adaptations and it starred Vigo Mortensen in what seemed like a very like showcase performance any kind of movie where it's like one person at the center of this movie

for seemingly a long stretch of time and like it's him and Cody Smith McPhee as the kid right but people really expect it and this is also Vigo Mortensen coming off of his nomination for Eastern Promises in 2007 so like there's a lot of anticipation for this But anybody... The Road was like the hugest novel of that time.

Right. The most praise novel of that time. The movie was somewhat delayed, if I remember correctly. I think that's right. I think it was supposed to come out the year before. So there was a lot of anticipation, but then by the time it arrived, it was like, well, do we really fucking want this thing? And like, it just, it didn't match the expectations of the book. Well, and also, anybody who had read the novel was very, very insistent on being like,

careful. Like, anybody who was anticipating the movie who hadn't read the book, people who read the book were just like, just so you know, it's the most depressing thing you've ever seen, you'll ever see in your entire life. Like, there was a lot of like pre-warning of just like, just so you know, this thing is bleak as hell. And it's probably not going to be an Oscar fave because of how bleak it is. And ultimately, if, you know, I'm sure there were many reasons why the road didn't

latch on as an awards play but like that definitely seems like it was one of them yeah so yeah and then the one release was kind of half-assed to like i think they i'm pretty sure that's a winstein co movie which like we know how they shuffled priorities all the time in terms of what movie they you know so much so that it ended up getting distributed officially by dimension yep so that's how much of a Weinstein Company movie it was. And then the one that people forget that nobody saw and hardly anybody really remembers existed is Child of God, which was James Franco directing based on the novel by Cormac McCarthy. Probably Cormac McCarthy's most controversial novel. I saw that movie at, I want to say, New York Film Festival that year, and did not care for it,

but I also don't remember a ton about it now. But it is a, it's a really violent movie, as I recall. It's another Cormac McCarthy, like, violent thing. I think there's necrophilia in it. There's stuff. That's what it was. I thought I read, like. Yeah, it's an unpleasant movie.

It stars, um, it was Scott Hayes, who I think was like a buddy of James Franco's in the lead. This was when James Franco was at his like peak indulgent filmmaker, where he was just sort of adapting these sort of major works and making a bunch of movies at once and they all just like didn't get much distribution at all and they just sort of vanished. This was when he was like re-editing cruising.

Because there were for nobody but himself. Right, right. This was his very much like James Franco. It was like he was going to grad school. This was around the time that he was. guest starring on General Hospital. There was a lot of just like, what the fuck is James Franco doing? What is like what's happening here?

And so, give me one second as I look. So Child of God comes in the same year as Interior Leather Bar, which was the re-editing of cruising. And then as I lay dying, which the Faulkner adaptation, and the year before, or the sound in the Fury, the other Welkliner adaptation. So it's just like, it's just in the midst of this really,

um, oh, and, uh, my own private river, which was the, my own private Idaho glomming onto thing, right? So it's just like,

it's in the middle of the most self-indulgent, filmmaker, you know what I mean? Just like, what the fuck are you doing? James Frank. era. But it's not a very pleasant movie, and it's not like it's like, you know,

you can't call it like a forgotten, whatever. Like, nobody should seek out this movie. It's not worth it. It's the definition of not worth it. Can we talk about how the character names and the road are basically that Jack Kay Harry family feud? A man. A young man.

A old man. Any man. I love that clip. Name something you must have in order to live. A man. One of the seven wonders of the world A rich man Something that improves with age A young man

A Christmas present you'd exchange A old man A condemned person's last request A man A woman A motherly woman A bearded man I love that clip so much

Seek it out people I'll put it on the Tumblr Yeah Okay. Let's talk about Fastbender for a second, because we haven't really talked about it. Oh, boy. His character in this is the very definition of the sort of straight-laced lead that is made to be overshadowed by more colorful supporting characters. We see this a lot in a lot of movies, and it's not that he's...

People don't know what to do with Fastbender. He's not bad in this movie at all, actually. He holds the center of it pretty well, but he is made to be overshadowed in this movie by other people, which is, interesting because he's the holdover from Ridley Scott's previous film. He was in Prometheus the year before this. And in a way more dynamic, that's way more appropriate to him. And it's a more interesting character. But also, the counselor advances the cinematic language of Michael Fastbender definitionally good at sex. Okay. This is my thing about him being good at sex in this

movie. It opens with basically a sex scene entirely under sheets because apparently that's something that heterosexuals do. It's none of my business, I will say. None of my, I mean, I felt like I was watching something that was fully none of my business. I, as an audience member, felt like I was invading on them. And it's, he goes down on her and she's like full yelling. Like yelling, it sounds like she says, ow. I don't know how. you can make someone say ow by doing that but the idea is he makes her and come very hard yes that is the idea definitionally good at sex michael fastbender think about that the next time you watch steve jobs anyway um this is only if think about that when you watch frank scott god talk about

uh there's a giving head there's a giving head joke there's a moment where if someone went down on you you might say al because there's a lot that's a lot ahead yeah all right two years prior to the counselor festbender gets a good bit of precursor attention and a good bit of advanced buzz for his performance in shame that is a divisive movie that i mostly really like and i think he's very good in it and i think he probably did deserve a best actor nomination and he doesn't get it, for many reasons, is one of those reasons the fact that Oscar voters were jealous of his dick? Maybe. I'm not ruling it up. I think maybe it's more so the reason is people talk more about his dick than the performance. No, it's jealousy. I'm saying, I'm putting it down.

It is jealousy. No, no, that became, yes, that became the story of shame. It quite literally cast a shadow over the rest of that film. Jesus Christ. What? It did. That's a phrase. That's a common phrase. It cast a shadow. And it did. Yeah. Also, Carrie Mulligan is

fantastic. But that's a movie that as many people disliked as liked. And I thought he was great. Yeah, Carrie Mulligan rules in that movie. And so there was a sense in some coroners that, like, if not Michael Fassbender is overdue for

Oscar attention at this, but at the very least, like, well, if it didn't happen for shame, when's it going to happen? Because it's going to happen. Like, everybody's, you know, you knew this was coming. And so the counselor obviously didn't do it and it was probably never going to do it for him because of the nature of the role in relative to the other roles in the movie. But it did happen that year for his performance in 12 years of slave, which is a much more, it makes a lot more sense that that's the performance. That's the role that would get him his first Oscar nomination. Well, and it's a performance and a role that is very different from, it's obviously leading up to the nominations was the Best Picture Frontrunner. It's a very different role in performance than what people had already seen him in. So it's like it shows a certain level of versatility. I also think because people don't know, it hit maybe a sweet spot for like expectations and awards because Hollywood, doesn't know how to use Michael Fastbender because it's like, is he a character actor or is he a leading man? He's neither. So where, like, nobody knows where to put him. Granted, like, I think he's amazing in Steve Jobs. I thought he should have won that year. Me too. A lot of that is the fact that the competition wasn't great, but, like, I think he rules in that movie. Right. And, like, even that, it's like, it feels.

like the, probably the closest to being a leading man that he ever pulls off successfully is shame. But like Steve Jobs, it's like he got leading man cred for not being a leading man. How do I want to put this? I don't know. I'm interested. It's a character role that's the lead. But like the movie doesn't treat him in leading man ways, if that makes sense. Also, like the way. Like the way that, like, a light between oceans expects Fastbender to be a leading man, the way the counselor expects him to be a leading man. The other interesting thing is, and I'm going to tally this up really quickly, so bear with me for, like, half a second, but...

So in the five years from... He sort of comes onto the scene with a fish tank in 2009, to... or sorry, hunger and fish tank in 2009, because hunger doesn't really come out in the States until 2009. 2010. I think the same is true of Fish Tank. So anyway, it's about 13, 14 movies of his that emerge in the five years, 2009-ish to 2013 with the counselor, right?

It's a lot of movies. It's a lot of movies in a short amount of time. You look at the last five years of his career, since from 2017 on the only movies of his that have made that have been made song to song which is he prominent in that or is he just like one of

people he's prominent in that I haven't seen song song song alien covenant the snowman notoriously iconically playing Harry Hole Harry Hole Mr. Policeman he gave you his Harry Hole and X-Men Dark Phoenix which at this point it's hard to you like by this point you almost can't count song to song too because that's a

Terrence Malick that they shot it years before it came out but anyway the last five years he's been in four movies and and it's those four movies so like and you would think like oh that's the career of somebody who has been making a television show for the last five years it's like no that's not it he's just not working very much right now and I don't know why and being a parent sure and I'm you know I am always one to just be like parent-shmarin. Like, I'm a terrible person in that way. I never think about, you're always the one to remind me that like, yeah, this person

had a child. And I'm like, oh, whatever. So let them have their children and focus on their children. I agree. No, I definitely agree. But what I'm seeing is there's a scarcity of Michael Festman right now. Well, he got dubbed like box office poison, which like, I mean, if he's not playing Magneto, like, and people don't like, always think of him as like a magneto. Like, I get

it. Actors don't matter for box office anymore, though. So, like, it... They don't. And I think, I think he's still someone that, you know, directors don't know what to do with him. I'm really curious, though, because I do think he's poised to come back in a big way with his next movie.

Well... Which is the Tyka the Waititi comedy. Except, read down that cast list as far, and you let me know when you get to the part. He's the lead of the movie. Yeah, but read down that cast list and let you know when you get to the part where I'm talking about. Army Hammer is in this movie. Yes, yes.

This is what I'm saying. As a supporting character. However, like, this is... Do they all the money in the world? It's a very big character. Oh, yeah. I just think we could be preparing for a comeback for Fassbender. I don't even think it's necessarily he needs a comeback, but like, yes, a return to

some kind of form. I don't disagree. I'm being, I'm being, I'm catastrophizing everything that Army Hammer is attached to these days. Because part of me is just like all of those movies are going to be thrown into a volcano and we're never going to see them. But that is probably not true. Taika Waititi has enough cloud. How many movies Kenneth Branagh can make and release before Death on the Nile ever sees the light of day? Let's take that as a challenge, Kenneth Branagh.

Let's do that, do that challenge. But yes, it's a movie about, it's a sports comedy drama, about a soccer team, and it's Michael Fastbender. And it's Tycho Waititi, which is an interesting pairing of director and star that I think will bring out something interesting in Fastbender's performance. I'm into it. Army Hammer aside. And Elizabeth Moss is in it. We love Lizzie Moss. I'm saying, you can recut these movies.

We are talking about Ridley Scott, the one who went and did it. And did it in two fucking weeks. Let's set up a phone call. Let's set up a phone call between Tycho Waititi and Ridley Scott, and they'll figure out how next goal... And Kenneth Branagh. And Kenneth Branagh, and we'll figure out next goal wins, and we'll figure out death on the Nile, and everything will be fine. All right. Let's delve into...

There's a couple of miscellaneous things about the counselor that I wanted to talk about. one of which is it did not get nominated for much. Even for a movie that did not get any Oscar nominations, it's not like it even got like golden satellite stuff or like it, you know, led the critics' choice down a wild goose chase or anything like that. No. It was nominated, I will say,

for a MTV Movie and TV Award, which don't get me started on what a loss and an end of an era it is that the MTV Movie Awards now have to include television dumb, stinky television. It's going to be like MTV, movie, and TV and TikTok Awards. And I am going to self-immolate. Yep, that's exactly what it's going to be.

If it's not already that, we are at most two years away from it being that. Or it being not even TikTok, but like what is the next thing after TikTok? No, it's absolutely going to be that. It is, it will map the degradation of youth culture in America. And I'm going to be bummed about it. Anyway, the one, the one thing. that they are doing good now, and I don't even know if it's still a category, but at some point MTV started adding the best scared-to-shit performance, which is so dumb that I love

it. It's so stupid. It's dumb because, like, they don't even nominate, like, people who are scared in scary movies. It's just performance in a scary movie. So just say best horror performance. Like, they nominate villains from horror movies. Like, it doesn't make sense. But it's that very, like, MTV thing where, like, we don't trust the use. the youth culture, to know what we're talking about unless we, like, condescend to them. And so, there we are. The best thing about the best WTF moment, at least as depicted on the IMDB page, is IMDB has the film that gets nominated, but also has a little write-up about why it got

nominated. I love this. More weird award shows should provide this information for IMD. So the counselor is nominated for, as you might imagine, Cameron Diaz, and the write-up here is having sex in a car is pretty much a right-of-passage, but having sex with a car, Cameron Diaz's Malkina gets down and dirty

with a bright yellow Ferrari to show the world how it's done. Is that what happened? She showed the world how it's done? I feel like we haven't properly unpacked this scene, and that's what our listeners are going to want us to do. So we should maybe take a moment. Talk about the scene. All right, but then let me revisit the other nominees for Best WTF Moment.

But yes, let's talk about this game. She... It is told in flashback, it is told as a pioneer in the Old West would talk about the gold mine that he found in the mountains of California. Like, it is told as if passing a legend of Paul Bunyan down to the next generation. It is... And it is also performed with that level of... and wonder. Like,

Javier Bradem, the expression on his face is, I think, one of his, like, ten most iconic acting moments. It's like he is finding

a new stalagmite. Like, he wandered into that cave, and there's diamonds everywhere. It is totally that, like, what's the chamber that Aladdin goes into?

That's, like, the cave of wonders? Yes. It is very much, I mean, he's kind of looking into it. That's why I'm surprised you came up with that metaphor, but yeah. Forgive me, forgive me.

But it's played as comedy. It really is. But like also kind of this darkness, I don't think Ridley Scott really knows what to do with that scene. I'm, it is ludicrous and funny as it is presented. It is both of those things. Javier Bergdames. And he describes it like Octopus. suckers on the

he doesn't say the word he doesn't say the word lampreys but he means lampreys he means like yes you go to an aquarium and you see you know eels or whatever see creatures on the glass sucker onto the glass and that's how he describes the effect of

Malkina's business yes on the windshield of this car you're right it is part of this is it's Cameron Diaz fucking going for it and God bless her um god bless her clearly a body double sure and like you don't thank god see you don't

part of me because we don't need we don't need an actress to do that for us we get it i had i had mandela i had mandela affected that we see um how to put this you see you see um you see what he sees in the glass no my had mandela affected that you see some kind of like a, like, a dripping liquid down the windshield, like, from, you know what I mean? Weird, like, I don't know why, but, like, that's, in my mind, I was like, he basically describes that. He does describe that. His expressions in this, it's not even, I think, you almost want to, like, graft onto him the sort of Warner Brothers, howling wolf kind of thing.

To me, though, do you remember the Saturday Night Live sketched the, Continental. I love the Continental. So that sketch was, essentially, wouldn't it be funny if Christopher Walken played a sexually harassing hotel guest? It is the funniest cliche. And it's all in first person POV. So, like, you are the POV of this woman who's in a hotel room with the Continental who was like... With a dirty Frenchman.

With making... I don't even think he's French. That's the thing. I think he's, like, vaguely European. I think he's like very unspecific in his foreignness. But he keeps making passes at her and she keeps sort of like trying to brush him away. It's very sort of like Pepe de Pugh. But it's first person, so you only see Christopher Walk in.

And in one of those sketches, I can't remember what the woman he's looking at is doing, but he just goes, Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. And that's all I can think of when I see Javier Bardem's face in that scene.

It's child like awe. It is. It's just, it's, it's, it's funny and shocking. And again, you, no other movie is going to give you a scene as memorable as that. So, yes, that's the calling card of this movie. No spoilers is all I'll say. But, uh, the thing about Cameron Diaz in this. I am shocked that she took this role because of this scene a performer of their stature

doing this because like I mean like this is basically kind of a giant middle finger studio movie that like again I think they everybody involved feels like they got away with something do you think she knew that she was going to unofficially retire within a year of making this movie

when she did that scene? Do you think she knew she was just like I mean no this is the thing that I was going to kind of say and I don't want to play chair psychologist to Cameron Diaz because I, you know, we don't know her, but I think she really went for it. And I feel like she probably understood that, you know, it is a comedic scene ultimately. But I think in the press and the way that the movie was responded to, specifically this scene, I feel like she was treated pretty badly. She got the Sharon Stone treatment. She did. And it sucks. And I don't. I'm not saying that that whole thing is why she went to retire, but it probably didn't help. I'm sure it was just like one more thing of just like, well, you know, they're not even going to appreciate this. They're not even going to appreciate when I take a risk. She's trying to do something different.

And like she makes... I feel like people like us are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. And there's even some critics that think that she's incredible. There are. Yeah. But like, it couldn't have helped. to, like, take a risk and, like, try to do, you know. And to become the butt of jokes because of it. And to become the butt of jokes.

And then the next year have these, like, not good, like this trio of not good thing that people didn't like or see. Her last three movies that are all released in 2014 are two very typical and uninspiring mainstream comedies, which is the other woman, which is not actually, the other woman's not bad. It's not great, but it's not bad. It's her and Leslie Mann and Kate Upton as three women who are all being cheated on by the same guy, by Nikolai Koster Waldow from Game of Thrones. I mean, that's the guy. I mean, of course he's cheated. It's directed by Nick Cassavetes.

I always forget that. That's so weird. Oh, interesting. She's done multiple Nick Cassavetti's movies then. What was the other? Uh, isn't, uh, what's the, what's the movie where her daughter has cancer? Oh. It's not the other sister, but it's my sister's sister.

My sister's keeper? My sister's keeper. Isn't that a Nick Cassavetti's movie? Give me a second to look that up. That is the movie that made me cry while watching it on cable and I was furious at it. That is a Nick Cassavetti's movie. Yeah. Um, so it's that one.

It's sex tape with, uh, Jason Siegel, which is, is the first movie to understand that the cloud could be bad. And then, quite regrettably, calendar-wise, the last Cameron Diaz movie we ever got, which is her being cast as Miss Hannigan in the Annie remake that was just not a good idea. This wasn't a good idea. I'm sad that that's the last Cameron Diaz movie.

I know. She is seemingly not sad. There's been like the whole, because internet discourse is nothing but cyclical as it all swirls us down the drain. Another resurgence of people being like, oh yeah, Cameron Diaz is retired. We love her. Please come back to us. I want her to be happy. I like that she's making her clean wine and, you know.

If she's happy, I'm happy. Like, I would love to see. her on screen again. But if that's not what she wants to do, then I don't want her to do that. I'm happy with her showing up on Drew Barrymore's talk show as a hologram, along with in-person Lucy Lou, and revealing that she said that she recited the E. Cummings poem from In Her Shoes at Drew Barrymore's wedding. I like... Oh, my God, yes. It's either that or it was the other way around that Drew recited it at her wedding, but I think

it was Cameron recited, I carry your heart, I carry it in my mind. heart at Drew Barrymore's wedding, which did make tears come to my eyes when I first heard of it, because what a wonderful thing. That was when Drew Barrymore's talk show was very new, and we were all sort of like unprepared for what we were getting with it, which is extreme silliness, but also like arresting, heartwarming moments. It was just like, oh my God. Wonderful earnestness. Go look up that whole episode. It was the Charlie's Angels reunion episode. Drew and Lucy and

I will try to find a clip for the Tumblr. And Cameron D and Destiny although Destiny's Child was not there unfortunately because that would have Could you imagine if they were? That would be great. That would have been the gag of luck out. That would be the best episode of television ever.

All right. So back to the MTV Movie and TV Awards for a second because I just want to read off the other nominees. The other nominees were... I hate these nominees. Anchorman 2, The Legend continues, which was the Channel 4 and News team's afternoon is no longer a delight

as their speeding van filled with bowling balls, scorpions, and hot oil takes a tumble on the highway. Okay. Why is the. Anchorman 2 WTF moment, not the one where all of the different news teams show, including Kanye West, including, seek out the outtakes of that scene, by the way, because Tina Faye and Amy Polar, you show the part where like, they literally improv that scene where Amy Polar's like, hey, you eat pussy, you better. You're gonna. You're gonna. It's, it's very funny. I'll clip that into this too because it's great. Okay, this is the end, which is a movie that I saw and didn't like, but I don't remember this part, where it says Danny McBride shows an apocalyptic world at uncomfortable theater goers everywhere that there's no better pet than a scantily clad Channing Tatum, which is very like straight guys hauling out sexy Channing Tatum as a weapon of comedy.

is such, it's the straightest guy thing. You lost me at Tanny McBride. Yeah, okay. Bad Grandpa nominated for Johnny Knoxville and Jackson Nickel managed to strike fear into a room full of unsuspecting beauty pageant loving parents, thanks to a bump and grind dance routine to a warrant classic. So they do cherry pie at a beauty pageant. I just, I just can't with a jackass movie. It's not my thing.

It's not my thing. It's not my thing. It's not my thing. It's not my thing. And all of the people who were excited for the new jackass movie were like, no. I was like, good, you're paying the stores me. I'm happy letting people enjoy the jackass movies, but it's just not my thing. It's not for me. I mean.

It's not for me. And then the winner, somewhat predictably, is my nemesis, the Wolf of Wall Street, which is, of course, the Kualoelux. The Kualoot scene. Which, if you're going to give Wolf of Wall Street an award, fine. Give it to that. Like, yeah, I, I, I am a defender for false. I'm, that's fine.

I just is not, I mean, not even defender. I think that, I, I understand why you have, you don't need to defend it. Everybody likes it. I'm the one who doesn't like it. Everybody else defends it. I don't need to defend it. I think that is, I'm alone on my little island. What can you even say of one of Scorsese's best?

But like, whatever, everybody gets mad when you say bad things about Scorsese. So I'm not going to say anything bad about Scorsese. All right. It's, it's, it's a fight club situation where it's like, there's, whole subset of people who are defending it that don't love that don't understand what that movie is that and i'm a fight club guy so like i have no place to talk okay so anything else we want to say about the counselor before we jump into the i mdb game um for whatever reason in my mind i remember this as a fox movie but why i thought it was like dumped by fox because of the

disney acquisition i don't know what it is but i will forever think of it that way but the disney acquisition wasn't for several more years, right? Right. But, I mean, like, it probably could have an interesting footnote in that of, you know, this movie probably lost a lot of money. Oh, I bet. Yes. I do bet that is true. Yeah. All right. That's all I got for this movie. We didn't really talk about Penelope Cruz, who I think is trying her best with a nothing. There's not really much to talk about with Penelope Cruz, unfortunately. Yeah. There's, like, the engagement scene.

and the sex scene, which also made me be like, why did she want to do this movie? I think it's just, I guess a lot of that probably goes back to Ridley Scott and everybody wants to work with Ridley Scott his legendary status is certainly earned. That's why his movies are all incredibly well cast. Like, they're incredibly well populated.

This is an imperfect movie that I have a decent amount of admiration for in terms of his movies. He has so many, like huge and boring movies that... This is not boring. I can't... This is not one that I put shit on. The plot is impenetrable and doesn't matter, but like, because of the sort of scene work,

it is not boring. Right. All right. Want to tell our listeners what the IMDB game is? Listen, guys, the IMDB game, we end our episodes with this where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that I'm IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that

up front. But after two wrong guesses, we'll get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints, beheadings, oral sex scenes where people are shouting ow. Yeah, that's the IMDB game. All right. Would you, Chris, like to give first or guess first? I'm going to make you guess first.

All right. Let's hear it. You know, one award that we love to talk about when we can that you didn't mention, the yoga awards. Yes. Which are the inverse of the Spanish goyas. They are basically the Spanish Razzis, where, you know, they list the worst Spanish films, but also the worst foreign films from the rest of the globe. They named the counselor the worst foreign film of this year. I think that's a little blunt.

Usually the yoga's make me mad because they also said the worst Spanish film of this year is Almodovar's. I'm so excited. I think people should let that nice little comedy be. Everybody hates it and thinks it's Almodovar's worst movie. I say leave that nice man alone.

He is great and he is allowed to make a farce if he wants to. Anyway. Listen, every great movie, every great filmmaker is going to have a worst movie because there's... It's not his worst movie. Well, but also,

So, like, what I'm saying is, the worst film by a great director is still a film by a great director. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's always, every director's got their worst film just because they've got a list of films that they've all done. Something's going to be worse. Their worst director is David O. Russell, but for Silver Linings playbook, like, wow. That's weird. If you give it to him for joy, I understand.

You give it to him for American Hustle, I understand. But, like, it's just incorrect to, like, even if you don't. Love Silver Linings Playbook. It's not the worst of anything. I'm sorry. Their worst for an actress is Oprah for the butler. We've done an episode on that. We think she's quite good.

They can shut up. However, the long journey of this is their worst foreign actor, Ryan Gosling. For Silver Linens Playbook? No, that was Bradley Cooper. Sorry, why am I stupid? For only God forgives. Oh. Why wouldn't you give that your worst director?

Oh. Poor Ryan Gosling, but this is the end of the road for the yoga's because I have given you Ryan Gosling. And we've never done Ryan Gosling. All right, well, some of these seem like they would be, excuse me, some of these seem like they would be pretty obvious. I imagine La La Land. La Land, correct. I imagine Blade Runner 24. Correct, Blade Runner 2049.

A great movie. A great movie. All right, let's see. Drive? Drive. Three for three. Three for three, can you get a perfect score on the Gossling? All right.

Part of me feels like there's a non- zero chance that only God forgives is one of these, because it's definitely showed up before. I believe in Kristen Scott Thomas's. So that chaos element is out there in the ether. That said,

he is much better known for the notebook, so I'm going to see the notebook. Incorrect. Fuck. Is it only God forgives? Incorrect. Okay. What's the year? All right. Your year, which probably means you're going to get it, is 2010.

2010. No, I just got to mentally reorient myself and put myself in 2010. 2010, Ryan Gosling. So we're after Haph Nelson,

obviously. We are after Lars and the Real Girl. Oh, oh, oh. It's a year break because of the lovely bones. Right. It's Blue Valentine.

It's Blue Valentine. Surprisingly enduring in the IMDB game is Blue Valentine for a movie that notoriously was not seen by very many people. Catch me on the right day, and I say Blue Valentine's his best performance. It's a really good performance. It's a really kind of, I don't want to say egos-less, because that's not the right word for it, but he's really willing to make that character not likable in that movie.

And I like that about it. All right. Yay. He has a good known for. It's a good known for. I'm glad it wasn't only got for. forgives. I'm glad that that was not there for you. So, for you, I obviously delved into the House of Gucci for this. I took a trip to the House of Gucci. I have been a Gucci all my life.

The name that I've chosen for you, I am very surprised we've never done before. It is somebody who is, in many ways, a patron saint of this podcast. You hear her dulcet tones every week At the beginning, every time we always are getting Twitter comments about what is our intro from. It is Salma Hayek saying and from Canada Water from the 2006 Oscars nominations because she was being very deadpan after being very enthusiastic about Pan's Labyrinth. So if anybody is new to the podcast and you don't want to go all the way back to our Ask the Dust. episode. That is what it is from. Yeah, give me Salma Hayek's known for. Oh, I'm so, thank you very much for giving me Salma's known for. You're welcome. I wonder what this is going to, her Oscar nomination has to be there, so Frida. Correct. Frida. Perfect. Sadly, I don't think Beatrice

at dinner is going to be there, even though she is incredible in that movie. Love that movie. because it's you giving it to me I have no influence over what shows up on her IMD be known for No, but you are one of the major supporters of her performance in the movie Savages and I feel like you would want to talk about that so I'm going to say savages Listen, I'm always going to want to talk about savages

and her eating a lamb chop with much menace in savages and implicitly threatening the life of Blake lively in savages. But no, it is not, unfortunately. Okay. Talk about another movie. Would have voted for her for an Oscar nomination for that movie if I had the chance. Absolutely. So one strike, no savages.

I'm somewhat tempted to say the hitman's bodyguard, because it was apparently enough of a hit to get, you know, a sequel. And a sequel that puts her characters, identifies her character within the new title. She's the hitman's wife. She is the titular, bodyguard's wife.

She is the titular hitman's wife. Okay. Hmm. I'm going to go for it. Hitman's bodyguard. I feel like if I can't get the title, I should not guess it. So,

so wait, are you guessing it are you not guessing it? I'm going to go back because I feel like one of the older iconic performances has to be there. So I'm going to actually guess from dusk till dawn. It's a great guess and a movie that I love and we'll try and watch every Halloween-ish time. But no, not from dusk till dawn. All right. So you have three movies that you are missing. You'll get three years. They are each separated by two years, which I think is very interesting. 1995, 1997, 1999. So I was right, just not about the right movie. Correct, correct. 99's probably dogma. It is dogma. Which she's really funny in. Angel, yes.

I couldn't tell you which year it is. She's a muse. Sorry. I'm amused! That's what she says. Couldn't tell you what year it is, but one of those has to be desperado. Yeah, 95 is desperado. That was the year before from dusk till dawn.

That was basically the first thing anybody saw. her in was so from dust till dawn is 96 so this is right after that so this is when she's getting cast in like sex pot rolls um there's a couple of these just trying to think of which one hmm it's not 50 is it 54 or is 54 99 98 so it's not 54 4 it's not 54 it's not 54 it's gotta be um fools rush in it is fools rush in her romantic comedy with matthew perry interesting it's a very very 90s movie poster where it's both of their sort of floating heads above a cityscape of that is both new york city with the twin towers i will say and also a cactus desert to to really underline the culture clash between the two of them and it's her sort of sedentious

deductively whispering in his ear, and he has a shirt and tie and is looking at her at the corners of his eyes, and it's very, uh, they're mismatched, but they're lovers. I'm going to argue adamantly that Salma deserves a better known for. I mean, yes. I think desperado there makes a lot of sense. I think Frida there makes a lot of sense. Dogma's an odd choice, but, you know, I think she's fun in that movie. So, and I think fools rush in as being indicative of that early period of fame where she could headline a romantic comedy, I'm into it. But it should be something else besides dog. It should be Beatrice.

Well, yes. But also, that's a very small movie. But yes. She rules in that movie. She should have been nominated. All right. Good job, Chris at the IMDB game. That's our episode, you guys.

If you want more, this had Oscar Buzz. You can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.tumbler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Show up at the very least for Chris's chaotic teasing of the movies of whatever the next month's worth of movies. We're going to be covering. It's a very fun guessing game that will also make you want to lock Chris in jail for the rest of his life. Chris, where can the listeners find you in your stuff? You can find me mashing my bits against a car windshield on Twitter.

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