This Had Oscar Buzz - 167 – The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

We’ll get you a red cap and a speedo for this week’s episode, becuase we’re talking about Wes Anderson for the first time with The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou. The follow-up to Anderson’s first Oscar-nominated film The Royal Tenenbaums put Bill Murray front and center in the year after Murray almost won Best Actor for Lost in Translation. … Continue reading "167 – The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. The Belafonte, home to Team Zissu. Skilled crew of deep sea divers, adventurers, documentary filmmakers.

Action. Led by internationally renowned oceanographer Captain Steve Zissu, expert on every aspect of marine life. Swamp leeches, everybody. Check for swamp leeches. Nobody else got hit? I'm the only one with steel. But there remains one form of life about which Captain Zisu knows very. everything. You're supposed to be my son, right?

I want you on Tim Susu. The answer is yes. Well, it's got to be. I'll already a red cap and a speed on. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that can be described with one word, and it starts with a C. Cool! Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle,

and I'm here, as always, with my mysterious deep sea creature who I'm seeking vengeance against Joe Reed. Yes. Much like that creature, I am massive, but breathtakingly beautiful. And you have spots. And I have spots. Yes, but let's not talk about that, because I'm seeing a doctor about that next week. We'll see how that goes. Out. Tiger King in I would be absolutely. Jaguar. Jaguar sharks. Never mind. Didn't work. Didn't work. It's fine. It works. Out Jacksonville Jaguars in Jaguar sharks. How about that? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Are we talking about a Wes Anderson movie? Right after we talked about Wes Anderson on our New York

Film Festival episode. So we are literally on theme. We're literally on film filming recording five minutes ago. It's been a minute. because of various vacations and festivals since we've recorded. So we're hopefully not too rusty today. We are, you know what? Much like Steve Zisu, we are maybe a little weary, but you know what? We're trudging on. And we are also incredibly vain.

I don't know. Incredibly vain. How else can we compare ourselves? We are insufferable. We say homophobic slurs only to each other, endearing. I'm just looking, and we can cut this out if you want to. I'm looking at our outline, which we tend to copy our outline for these episodes from previous ones. Oh, do I still have some old stuff on there?

Yeah, we're saying that this is based on a novel by Philip Roth, which I was trying to think of like, what would a Wes Anderson movie based on a novel by Philip Roth actually be? Wes Anderson's The Human Stain. I guess I didn't touch it because it's written by Wes Anderson and his frequent partner Noah Bomb indeed indeed this is this was after a few movies where he and owen wilson shared screenplay credit on both rushmore and the royal tenon bombs this is wes anderson and no with no bomb back and i feel like you can tell the difference i always sort of talk about how noa bomb back sort of left to his own devices gets a little um sour and misanthropic in a little bit yeah this is the mean west anderson this is this is There's a meanness to it, yes. Not surprising that Bomback is one of his partners here. Yeah, I always have thought that Greta Gerwig has been an incredibly humanizing influence on Noah Bombbeck's movies.

And I think Noah tends to, when he's working with Wes, I think the Noah kind of takes over. And there's some harshness and some meanness to this movie, which is not to say that I don't like it. But it also feels like this is the Wes Anderson movie. It's one of the ones that is hardest for me to sort of wrap my arms around. We talked a little bit when we were talking about the French Dispatch in New York Film Festival about how these perceptions of Wes Anderson that because he's so sort of visually fanciful that you sort of, the expectation for him sometimes is that it's going to be a feel-good movie, and that's not always the case.

And this is definitely one of the movies that I was talking about when I mentioned that. I mean, see here's the thing I actually I like the meanness in this movie too or at least I appreciate it it's sure

we talked a little bit about this in the New York episode and I feel like we were trying to like pick and choose what we would say when talking about French dispatch anyway

um Wes Anderson has gone through these cycles right where it's not it kind of goes in and out of fashion

but it's like what is the dominating perspective on Wes Anderson by a certain movie. And this one, it felt like he really lost people. People turned on him for like,

this is his worst reviewed movie. It's his only rotten movie on Rotten Tomatoes. Wow. That's surprising. I agree. This movie lost people and partly because of the meanness. I think that's just something people didn't like about the

movie. But what they specifically didn't like about West Anderson is like the cheweiness of it, the over-design the basically the West Anderson vibe, right? I feel like this movie coming on the heels of the Royal Tenem Bombs, because if you go, you sort of

look at the progression from, bottle rocket was the sort of like the early Wes Anderson. I bet you a lot of people who saw Rushmore and Royal Tenenbombs maybe still hadn't even seen Bottle Rockets. So we can sort of silo that off a little bit, right? But I think from Rushmore to Royal Tenenbaum's, while there were definitely similarities, sort of carryovers in cast members and, you know, tonal moments, I feel like, I think visually, there's enough that's distinct from Rushmore to the Royal Tenen Bombs that what was very sort of formal and, you know, people talk about like the Doll House, Wes Anderson aesthetic, where,

like that house, which by the way, up until a few years ago, I lived on the same block as that house in the Royal Tentabombs. I was always very, very proud of that. But the way that house is sort of designed and very much like everything is just so. And that house is sort of depicted, very sort of, you know, intersecting lines. You're looking at that house straight on and you move up and you move down and you move side to side. But it's always like your visual appreciation of that house is very, very much like a dollhouse right and so I think moving from tenem bombs to life aquatic

because the visual sensibility there's a progression there right stayed very very similar because the Belafonte is very intentionally I would say depicted as this sort of cross section right where you're looking at it as if you would look at it on a stage where you can see

the you know the wood beams in between the thing and the camera sort of moves from room to room in a way where very, very much are aware of the fact that you are looking at a set rather than you're not ever in a real, you know, a sub at any point, right? Well, and like the long tracking shots were becoming more and more of a thing for Wes Anderson to, now I feel like if they're there, you're less aware that they're there? Or that you've become so sort of accustomed to the fact that like this is just what a

Wes Anderson movie is. But I think at that stage, because a lot of people, I think, had given the Royal Tenenbaum's credit for being so visually distinct and there was something new and fresh and exciting about it. And the fact that a lot of that got repeated in the Life Aquatic, I think a lot of the responses were like, oh, this is just sort of, now this, he's repeating himself, now he's, now this is no longer novel now this is just like um like cold and uh i'm trying to think of the right word exactly but like predetermined i guess royal tenem bombs is there in terms of how the ensemble kind of functions right right but this kind of pushes it i still think that like the emotionalism of royal tenem bombs is here but it definitely does push it in a more

irascible like there's a little bit more of a dissonance between what is sweet about this movie which is mostly in the design and like the creature design and what is kind of nasty about it which is the characterization specifically of the lead

it's harder to love it on a story level and on a character level but I still feel like on an aesthetic level I think with Royal Tenen bombs not to like over-psychologize critics but I think with Royal Tenant you had critics who felt a little odd that like Wes Anderson is operating on a higher level than I am. And I think with Life Aquatic, I think critics felt like they were outsmarting

Wes Anderson and sort of kind of punished him for like, I shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't feel superior to you. Do you know what I mean? You're the one making the movie. I should feel more impressed by you rather than being like, I know your tricks. I figured you out. You know, the way you sort of sneer at a magician where you can see his tricks. I think there was a little bit of that reaction to it, if that makes sense. In terms of like the phases, it feels like we're reaching another point where people are willing to, you know, write him off again with the French dispatch because it's been muted at best

in terms of the response to it, I would say. Yes. Yes. mixed negative that I don't understand the flow of when he is going in and out of fashion. I still think French dispatch is going to make some money, whatever that means in these times we live in. But like, and I'm saying this as someone who doesn't like Grand Budapest Hotel, which is the one that I think is the least, like, human or the least, you know, has these, like, prickly things to connect to on an emotional level of all of Wes Anderson's work. Not his worst movie by a long stretch, but, like, I feel like when I am not into Wes Anderson is always, you know, not in sync

with the populace, I guess. My thing with the Grand Budapest Hotel is a little bit of my thing with the Life Aquatic, although I do like the Life Aquatic better, is I felt like there was a cruel streak in Grand Budapest Hotel that sort of kept me at a distance. But I also feel like, because that movie was the Oscar breakthrough, that was the one where the Oscars were like, oh, not only do we like, are we letting Wes Anderson in beyond just like the stray screenplay nomination. And we'll talk about his, you know, successes and lack of. of success with the Oscars before Grand Budapest.

But because Grand Budapest got so many nominations, didn't it lead all nominees that year? Was it the nomination leader? Or close to it. Possibly. Or close to it. And then it won a bunch. And I was just like.

But also that it was like the ex, because that was an early year release. Didn't that movie come out in like February or March? March. And it was expected to do well all year. Right. And it kind of puzzled me because I was like, there was a little bit of like why this one. Why all of a sudden do we beyond, and doubled with the fact that the one part about it that I really loved, which was Ray Fines's performance, was like equally puzzlingly out of the

conversation for, like he wasn't even like a last minute surprise snub. He was never in the conversation for Best Actor that year. He didn't win the Comedy Globe, right? Yeah, but in a way that like sometimes the Comedy Globe feels like a non-factor to the Oscar conversation. And like, even when he was winning the comedy club. He should have been the expected winner, right? And he didn't. Like, that's how good he is in that movie. But he felt like...

It's crazy. So a nomination front-runner. From what the Oscar conversation of that movie was. And it's not even like one of those like, Ray Fines is doing some stuff where like if you're really paying attention, he's doing some great stuff. Like any toddler could watch that movie and be like, yeah, Ray Fines is giving the business in that movie. Like, he's the centerpiece of the movie. All the focus is on him. It's, it's strange and bizarre.

So, and I who, like, am, you know, I'm a Tenembaum's loyalist. I love, you know, I'm the one who, like, will stick up for the Darjeeling Limited. Like, I'm that guy. And so I was so, like, puzzled by the fact that, you know, Budapest was the one. But, like, whatever. I was happy that he was getting his due anyway. But, like, I'm not sure what Grand Budapest Hotel does successfully that, say, the French dispatch, isn't doing successfully.

Like, I'm not, you know, I don't know. I don't get it. I mean, it's, obviously, I haven't seen it yet, but it is, you know, this, like, storybook episodic, like, truly episodic, separated narratives in that movie. And that's part of people's hang up from it. Doesn't seem to stop them from loving other movies that do it,

but whatever. Yeah. I guess if we're talking about the flow of West Andrews, Anderson's career. I can kind of understand the huge love for Grand Budapest Hotel because it's like, it's probably his like hugest movie in terms of a spectacle. Sure. Sure. After Life Aquatic, like he does Darjeeling Limited, which like is probably at the time of release his most ignored, I would say. Yeah, that's why I'm surprised that the Life Aquatic, I'm surprised that the Life Aquatic is the worst reviewed one because Darjeeling seems to be the most

hated one. I mean, I think probably conventional wisdom, and I'm one of these people puts it at his worst movie. I would actually maybe say Isle of Dogs is his worst movie. Isle of Dogs was the only movie of his that I was outright bored by. I just did not connect to that movie whatsoever. It's definitely my least favorite. Yeah, I did not like that movie. But, like, life aquatic happens.

People hate it, and like, they're kind of slapping his wrist for doing his own thing. Darjeeling Limited still is that, but in maybe a more minor key way, goes away for a few years to make Fantastic Mr. Fox, which Fantastic Mr. Fox at the time had these kind of like, I don't want to say whisper campaigns, but like there was reports of the animators like hating Wes Anderson during the production of it. During the production because like he wanted to make an animated movie in the way that he, you know, stylization-wise, makes his own movies. and it, you know, rubbed people the wrong way while, you know, they're used to a certain type of animation process. And yet, that movie... And yet it's one of his best movies.

It's one of his best movies. And I think only the fact that it's an animated movie, it sometimes gets sort of like lifted out of the discussions of his filmography as sort of like a side hustle, almost kind of a thing, right? But in terms of like characterization, like the emotional, like, flow of that movie and like the prickle the very West Anderson prickliness. It feels like that movie was the last time that he will make anything with any type of like

texture of barbarousness, right? Like it feels like it's gone now. Next he makes Moonrise Kingdom, which I think is his best movie. Yeah. Without question. But it is still this like minor key movie. It is released in the summer, gets a screenplay nomination, but like didn't, and I forget what Focus had that year,

but like it felt like Focus could have made it, it's big play, and didn't. But then the next movie is Grand Budapest Hotel, which is like, you see him backing off from doing these huge production value movies, and Grand Budapest Hotel is kind of the return

to that. Well, and Moonrise Kingdom had sort of flirted with Best picture a little bit. I feel like if you had like ranked out maybe the top 13 vote getters, Moonrise would have been in that like 11 through 13 area. Yeah.

Right? Maybe. Probably. Yeah. But yeah. It felt like I think without the, I think Moonrise sort of like walked it up to the doorstep and then Grand Budapest. And I think that's part of the reason why Grand Budapest was seen as a contender from such an

early stage in that year is because I think there was momentum for Moonrise Kingdom. Right. And, like, it felt organic, too, in terms of, like, people actually really love this movie, like, the fans of it, and they had, you know, time to really cement their opinion about it. This movie, Life Aquatic, though, we should call it by its biblical name, The Life Aquatic

with Steve Sisu. That's right. I get all of the things that people don't like about this movie. There's a lot to roll your eyes over from the production design to the almost like intentionally bad CGI character design to... Well, it definitely felt pastishi to something, some sort of, you know, Mr. Limpit, not quite that animation style, but like, you know what I mean? Like something that Wes Anderson had grown up watching. Beyond the Jacques Cousteau referencing, you know, it is like, that's actually, that's a great reference, the one you just. pulled because it is very that.

The Incredible Mr. Limpit. Yes. Yeah. And like, Steve Zissu is not a likable character. No. Like, I get all of that. However, I do think people are unfair to this movie.

And also, like, it is financially one of his more successful movies. Yeah. Because, like, even... Even some of his other ones that are maybe more liked, made less money. Just interesting. I think he was definitely, I think the momentum from the Royal Tenen Bombs really helped this one out at the box offices. It was a Christmas Day release, which I think is really interesting because it doesn't feel very much like a Christmas Day movie at all.

But Royal Tenenbombs had succeeded so well releasing at that same time that I think they really just sort of like redid the path for that one. And it is, again, it is not a lovable movie, but I think it is, I was very happy to revisit it. There are certain aspects of it that I find myself really, really taken with. I think it comes to kind of an emotional climax in a way that, like, even seeing it again, I was surprised that it had gotten to that point. And, yeah, I think just like, I think for as much as people kind of harped on the aesthetics, I really enjoyed the aesthetics of this movie. I liked the way that the, the Belafonte was sort of sketched out and these characters, you know, the red hats and the uniforms and all of that. I don't know. I enjoyed it while at the same time being like, yeah, I'm not going to wrap my arms around this one like I will

with the Royal Tennebombs, which is interesting because like the Royal Tennebombs isn't exactly about like the nicest people either, you know what I mean? Like there's prickliness all among those people. And yet, I find it, you know, sort of a lot warmer than the Life Aquatic with Steve Zee Sue. I miss, I miss Wes Anderson movies being kind of sad and melancholy. Like, there is some of that in the better parts of the French dispatch, not to spoil you, but like that is interesting. That was, that was present in, not throughout the French dispatch, but like in moments in that movie that I found myself. really, you know, touched by. Is this also our first movie that we've done?

No, I believe it's, well, technically it's our third movie that we've done in the Criterion Collection after this, the Ice Storm, and obviously Cats. You, you are much more well-versed in that cats, you moron, I, that like totally slid under my radar and, uh... Well, I wrote the Criterion essay for Cats. Yes. Well, as you should, really. You made such a campaign to do so.

Listen, I found so many ways to eloquently say butthole. Did you see that thing recently where Andrew Lloyd Weber was talking about how... That lying ass... He is so great. Full of it. He, like, okay, granted, when you have a project that's out in the masses and you are doing publicity for it, you're not going to be like, I hate this. But, like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We know what you said when that movie was released.

You cannot backtrack now. You need to do, like your star, Jennifer Hudson has done, and say that people will eventually stand by that movie. Andrew Lloyd Weber comes at everything. He is a creature of the theater. And so when Andrew Lloyd Weber is going to express that he hated the Cats movie, he's not just going to say that he hated the cats movie he's going to say that it was so harmful that he was able to what was it what was the he became a dog person he got a dog what he got a dog for the first time but also that he

he demanded that he take on to it this was actually funny how they said he couldn't take his uh dog on a plane so he said i've been through emotional trauma because they made a bad movie of my musical of my musical cats And the funniest thing about that whole interview photo set all of it to me

was that he did all of the photos for it wearing the Phantom of the Opera's fedora. It was say what you will about the man, I'm glad we have him in the culture. I will just say that. I'm glad we have him to lie about

what he has said in the past lie for Italia lie for the jellicles so all right why don't you give the details on this movie and then force me to do a 60 second plot. Let's get this plot description on the books

and then we can really talk about this movie why we like it are issues with it. Guys we are talking about the Life Aquatic with Steve Zissu directed by Wes Anderson written by Wes Anderson

and Noah Bolton Bach, starring Bill Murray, Owen Wilson, Willem Defoe, Kate Blanchett, Angelica Houston, Jeff Goldblum, Noah Taylor, Michael Gambon, Seo Jorge, The Wondress Bud Court, and Seymorgesel. Yeah, it's a great cast. I mean, surprise, surprise, surprise, Wes Anderson is coming at you with a great cast. With a huge giant great cast, movie premiered and limited released, December 10th of 2004 and then went wide that Christmas.

Joe, are you ready to give us a 60-second plot description of the Life Aquatic with Steve Zissu? I will give it my best effort. You've even put on a red cap and a speedo and a scuba suit for the occasion. Naturally, yes, yes, I have. All right. Then if you are ready, your 60-second plot description of the Life Aquatic with Steve Zissu starts now.

All right, so Bill Murray plays Steve Zissu, who is a Jacques Cousteau-esque oceanographer and documentarian who has just screened his latest movie to a tepid response, even though this was telling the story about how his beloved compatriot Esteban was eaten by a so-called jaguar shark. And now he wants to go on his next expedition and capture and kill this shark for revenge. He is having trouble finding financing. He does, in fact, also, though, encounter Owen Wilson, who is playing Ned Plimpton, who is claiming to be his son. He is also offered, at some point offers to finance this expedition.

They go on this. They are joined by Cape Blanchet as a rather skeptical reporter. Zisu is sort of hot for her, but she and Ned get together this irks, Steve. There are questions about whether Ned is actually his son, and who cares, because he loves him and then Ned dies and it is sad and they see the Jaguar Shark and it is beautiful and they decide to let it be because it is wonderful. There's a lot of other things going on. I didn't even mention the pirates. Okay. So this is the thing. The actual like substantive plot of the movie is the thing that nobody talks about. This really is at the end of the day Wes Anderson's action movie.

Yes. There's this whole thing with like pirates and like that is basically the fun. functioning plot of the movie. I think part of the movie's problem is that none of that matters. Right. That's not really what the movie is about, but it is occupying most of the time. And it ultimately, it doesn't make any difference in terms of the outcome of the movie either. Like that's not even how Ned dies.

You know what I mean? Well, and it's, this is like Wes Anderson's longest movie, I think. And it feels really long because of all that pirate stuff we don't care about. It does. Yes. Though it is kind of fun. Like, I did have a good time with it this time that I'm like, oh, Wes Anderson's making his take on an action movie or his take on like an adventure movie.

And on a sort of like 1980s kind of like, you know, almost like at times I was like, oh, this is like an A-Team episode or something like that, right? Where they're like soldiers of fortune and they have to go. And the tone of it is always, you know, sort of this like whimsically grun. in a way that I find like that's sort of the tone that that Murray is bringing to his character where it's just sort of like, you know, he'll be very kind of momentarily taken with the fact that like Budcourt as the bomb stooge sort of like sacrificed himself to go and get kidnapped by the pirates and whatever. And it's, I find matching that West Anderson tone with the action is, is fun, is a fun idea that still feels like, you know, cool idea. but also, like, that's a lot of time to devote to this section of the movie that doesn't really give me much of anything. This does feel like the movie where Wes Anderson is trying some things out that work 85% of the way, but that 15% can be really frustrating with that it doesn't work.

But then he does them later, and they do work, whereas, like, portions of Grand Budapest Hotel feel like the action movie for West Anderson that does work, you know, these like chase and pursuit type of things. The like, not the set design, the set design feels like it works when he does it in Fantastic Mr. Fox. The, like, title card thing, and the tone that he tries to do with those title cards works with like Moonrise Kingdom, you know? Sure. It feels like this is the one where it's like, later in his.

career he will revisit the things that don't work and he eventually makes them work in a different type of tone or context but i do wish that he like made another like there there's melancholy things about moonrise kingdom that i think work really well but like i want him to make another like sad mean movie like this it feels like this is the movie that he finally went to therapy afterwards. I will say for as much as the sort of Steve Ned relationship feels very, I would say, intentionally stilted at first. And I remember watching it again, I was like, wait, is Owen Wilson bad in this?

And then by the end of the movie, I was like, no, no, no, that was intentional. That was, that was all. And I think they build this really interesting relationship. And Owen Wilson is funny in his own, like, typically peculiar way where, like, the part where they're sort of top side on the boat and they're listening to, and Steve is like, oh, listen to I forget what this brand of whale

is, this sort of like fictional type of whale and it's like it's singing its song. And you hear the horn from the ship go like honks and then Ned just goes, I wonder what they're saying. And Steve goes, no, well, that was the sledge tanker. And then like one more beat and then the whale.

I was like, that's the kind of stuff with Wilson's character where he's like he's not dumb isn't like his character trait but like there are portions of him that sort of he allows to be kind of a kind of a dunce in a way that it's very endearing and I like that and it it ends up taking you to a place where by the end of the movie where like he's sort of conspicuous in his absence by that last expedition to go see the shark that thing where you've got that shot of all of them kind of crowded into this submersible. and it's this great sort of tableau of like every character we care about in this movie is sort of wedged into this one and he's really conspicuous by, you know, he's not there anymore and it's really sad. It's like genuinely sad in a way that like I didn't think I was going to be sad because I didn't think I was that invested in the story. But it turns out I was. Yeah. And then after that it kind of just like abruptly ends. I

I'm intrigued by, like, the bookending of the, like, film festival stuff in this movie, because it does feel like Wes Anderson is maybe not saying anything positive about the film community. Yes. Yeah, you definitely get some jabs, especially in there early when he sees the president of the festival or whatever. And, yeah. The thing that this movie does, there's so many little things about this movie that feel very much like, this is why I love Wes Anderson and sometimes he can get sort of

I think the fact that what Wes Anderson is great at is a lot of little details sometimes gets him sometimes that's part of people's backlash to him is just like well you know is there anything beyond just like this little meticulous like details

here or there he's you know he's a kid playing with his train set essentially that's a criticism you'll hear a lot from him but like all the like the names of you know how like in royal tenen bombs

one of the things that critics actually really liked was that it felt like it was a story taking place out of time and out of space

where it was taking place in a New York that like wasn't the actual New York and these you know these locations were sort of apocryful and you know

the whatever 375th Street Y or whatever like these kind of things where it's just like that you know none of these things exist and it's just

tweaked enough that you know these don't exist you know what I mean he's not trying to pull a fast one on you or anything well and it also kind of fuels the like the way the characters are written and what like the drama is that this is an incredibly insular and isolated family so when you have this like you put them in a world that is like just outside of being real you know like it makes them seem more up their ass it like it is purposeful for the story story, you know, to do those things. And it works in this, too, because, again, like, Steve has sort of been operating in his own, you know, world in his own environment for all this long. But all the things about, like, the names of the fish, like the jaguar shark, there is no such thing as a jaguar shark. The crayon pony fish, which is the little sort of, like, colored tiny little sea horse that's so adorable. Even down the fact that, like, the Arctic nightlights instead of the northern lights, or my favorite one being that Jeff Goldblum, has his compound on Porto Patois, which made me laugh, to the point where I had to like pause the movie, it made me laugh so much.

I was just like, that is so perfect. And again, it's like, it's this attention to detail that can seem very fussy if you're not into it, but I'm super. Or like, so kind of obvious in what it's revealing to the characters. But, like, honestly, I would rather take this where it's like a lot. of what it is, is like, if not stilted, but obvious about, like, how all of this world, you know, fuels these characters. I would rather take it than, like, Grand Budapest Hotel, where it's like, these actually

feel like real characters. They feel like, you know, people interacting to fuel whatever the drama is or whatever, you know, whatever is on West Anderson's mind that day. Whereas, like, Grand Budapest Hotel, which is, like, way more fully integrated. It feels like everything is part of a piece, whereas in, like, Life Aquatic, all of these characters, like, every actor in this movie is basically doing a bit. And they feel very separate. It doesn't feel integrated as Grand Budapest Hotel does. But, like, I can get absorbed in it more.

I can get more, like, involved and taken with these characters because they, you know, they feel like recognizing. people in some way. And there's some really funny stuff. I think everything that Willem Defoe is doing is... Sensational. ...is really funny as this very sort of like childishly threatened kind of third in command or whatever on this ship where he thinks he's second in command, but like clearly like once Ned shows up.

You put me with the B team, but you're leading the B team. And he's so jealous of Ned and he's such like, he's such a bitch to Ned. And that moment we're like, just Ned slaps him. And he's like, I thought we were cool. I thought we had like smooth things over. It's so great. He's so wonderful. Also, I had forgotten.

I, in my memory, I think, had made Angelica Houston more of a cameo in this as she was. She's not like one of the major characters, but she's in a lot more movie than I remembered. And she is so glamorous in this movie. She is like iconic Instagram. follow. She is a TikTok teen. She has like the stripes in her hair. She is a legend. She is the moment. Now come on now. She's both upstairs and downstairs cocaine at once. There's a moment where you do see an old photo that's supposed to be of Eleanor when she was married to Jeff Goldblum's character. And it's like a composite of when Goldblum was younger and then Angelica Houston. And you do get those memories which is like, right. Angelica Houston was like such hot shit at the time. And, but she's like she's got this like blue sort of like streak among the like very sort of like long straight black hair and she's always smoking in like these very glamorous ways and she just looks astounding and it was like oh right this comes right after tenem bombs where she gives such a great performance as this very um sort of matriarch kind of like she's not glamorous in that movie but she's like so lovable in tenem bombs and she's like the you know the woman sort of holding that family together, but she's this New Yorkie intellectual,

sort of like professorial kind of a woman. And in this, she is just like Greek money who has come to, you know, the island, and she rules. She's so great in this movie. Some of the funniest cutaway shots in this movie

are of just like, Angelica Houston on a pontoon. I thought of that exact moment. I was about to bring that up. when she just, like, gives the, like, high sign that, like, the mission has succeeded or whatever, which reminded me of fantastic Mr. Fox a little bit. But, yes, yes. Right?

Ah, it's wonderful. It's a wonderful shot. I loved her a lot, almost as much as I feel like I was underwhelmed by Kate Blanchett in this movie. And I was going to ask you about Cape Blanchet. Because she's definitely doing a bit. I, isolated from everything else, I think she's funny. But, like, she does not quite fit. And I feel like...

There's not a ton of reason for this character to be in the movie, other than the fact that you feel like there's an obligation to have a romantic obstacle somewhere in some way. But I'm not sure if that's true. I don't think it needed it. She also somewhat feels like a device to get certain, like, character beats out of Steve Zissu, you know, that don't feel. feel fully organic, that feel a little mechanical. As far as the performance, like, she makes me laugh. I think

it's funny. Do I think it works? Not always. I've seen more than one person since this movie has come out. Like, I feel like it's a regular thing. People just want it to be Gwyneth Paltrow. Oh, that's interesting. Because it feels like

you know, Margot Tanenbaum adjacent, right? I guess. Or like people just perceive it that way. And maybe it's the way that, you know, Blanchett is styled. I do think her style is funny. This kind of, like, very specific sunburn on her face is funny to me. It feels like she's going for a reference that I'm maybe not familiar with.

So maybe I'm just not, like, connecting to it in a way. And, like, I could totally, I would totally allow for that. But as it is, I just, it's a miss for me. You know what I mean? It's just, like, it eludes me. And as a result, the fact that she's sort of positioned is kind of like the third most important character in this movie. I'm like, well, again, almost like the pirate stuff, I'm just like there's a lot of time being devoted to this angle of the movie that ultimately is kind of fruitless for me. It does feel like she's going big in this kind of ultimately unimportant character.

And I don't know if, like, going big, it is the thing to do in a Wes Anderson movie, even though it seems like it would be, right? But, like, even, like, Ray Fines isn't necessarily going big in Graham Budapest. It's just a very specific character. I don't like to be the person to kind of take, you know, approach a movie and just be like, but what if it was a different movie? I hate that too I do too I usually don't even like it when you say it with a performer

I don't think Gwyneth would have done sure much I don't know she would have had much to work with more than you know Blanchett

but it is interesting that this is Blanchett's Oscar year it is interesting in a huge performance right right and I think that I think that helped kind of people

sort of paper over the fact that like maybe she's not super great in this, or at least not utilize super well in this, because like, who cared? Because by that point, she was in the thick of an Oscar conversation for a performance that people were really loving. But I think I bring that up, that's sort of like what, you know, judging a movie for what it's not, not because of the thing about Gwyneth, but also because part of me

wants to kind of take the time that's allotted to the pirates and to Blanchett's character in this movie, and maybe you get a little bit more about. the team, you know, the crew here, a little bit more about the Noah Taylor character and and Vikram and the interns, you know what I mean, and the script girl and all this sort of stuff. And part of me feels like, well, Wes wants to keep them at a distance because, like, that's sort of the point he's making, that this is sort of like, these are the little people sort of scurrying under Zisu. And I do get that. But I also feel like I would have had fun with a movie that, like, gives them all a little bit more to work with.

Yeah, I think I agree. I think it solves a lot of the movie's problems. I mean, all the pirate stuff can just go. Yeah. Aside of that's, like, one of the sneakily, you know, it's in there, but people don't talk about it. Forget about it when they criticize Wes Anderson for, like, cultural tourism. Yeah, nobody remembers the pirates in Life Aquatic and probably for, you know, good for Wes Anderson. They don't.

What did you think about the music? Speaking of cultural stuff, what did you think about the way that the Bowie songs reinterpreted as Portuguese were used in this movie? Because I've heard some people really like it, but I've heard some criticism that it feels not, if not appropriative, like sort of touristy. I think the extraneousness of it, the, like, own cutcinessiness. the fact that it's there for its own sake probably would contribute to that. I still love it. I do too. Just on a sonic level, I like hearing those melodies like wafting their way through a story.

There is a certain, and I think the way that they're performed and Say Jorge, saying it wrong, say Jorge, still probably saying it wrong, my apologies. I think the kind of tonal quality that he brings to it really kind of, pulls out the, like, melancholy of this movie in an interesting way, even though, like, the songs do basically just exist there for their own sake. And you sometimes do even get, like, the actual Bowie, like, you get a little bit of Life on Mars, the actual Bowie version of it. You get a Iggy and the Stooges song at some point, you know what I mean? So it's not all the Portuguese sort of reimaginings of it, but when you do get those, it, there is a little bit of like an adjudgey's song. drift at sea kind of quality to them, right?

That I really appreciate. And when this movie came out, like, this was hitting a lot of my, like, high school buttons. This would have been my senior year of high school. Yeah. Whereas, like, of course, was obsessed with Royal Tenant Bombs. I was discovering Bowie. And I was obsessed with Harold and Mod.

So I was, like, Bud Court in a movie, fuck yeah. Yeah. this movie speaks very specifically to that little type of spoke very specifically to a certain moment in my life that's fantastic no I love that and I also feel like the way that Anderson can often be accused of sort of using X, Y, and Z as decorative sort of items I think maybe misses the point a little bit of

that is, not to be like Judy Dench in Nine to reference her yet again, but that is kind of what a director does, you know what I mean? He's like, a director uses elements from, you know, arranges them in such a way and sort of, and, you know, moves a decorative item here or there, you know, decides to make this sonic sort of decision here, here, and then. move this here and it's you know you're it's it's a puppeteer work you know and ultimately that's why I don't think that Anderson is immune from criticism and I think certain things are more

pertinent than others but I think sometimes when he's you know criticized for that kind of like being decorative with cultural stuff I'm just like he's just sort of decorative with everything you know That's sort of, that's how he assembles these things. And I mean, there's some that are more, you know, to use the obvious word, more problematic than others.

Sure. And I do think for as much as I'm sure we are going to continue to agree to disagree on Darjeeling, I do think Darjeeling Limited grapples with that kind of thing more than it is often given credit for. Well, I've only seen it once and it was a long time ago. I'm going to re-watch some of the West Anderson's before French Dispatch, and I'll try to... I'll re-watch that one just because I've only seen it once, and I'll see where I fall on. Yeah. That, I think, is the movie where Angelica Houston is basically a cameo.

That's maybe what I was confusing with Life Aquatic. But people, like, that's definitely her smallest West Anderson role. kind of surprising that she isn't Mrs. Fox, and that's Merrill. Like, you almost wonder if Angelica is like, I'm not doing that. She is only the narrator in French Dispatch. She doesn't actually show up in French Dispatch at all. Oh, she narrates it? That's awesome. She's sort of the Yallick Baldwin and Royal Tendombs of French Dispatch.

Okay, now that, nothing has made me excited for the French Dispatch, like hearing this. It's mostly what you get from the trailer. Like, it's not too much more than that in a kind of. a similar wave. And I just missed that? Yeah, it's her. Oh, wow. Okay, I'm an idiot.

Yeah. Can we talk about Bill Murray, though? We're talking about all these performances, and it's like he's the showcase performance in a way that it feels like, you know, he's literally a title character, and, you know, Wes Anderson, it doesn't feel like is interested in doing these character studies anymore. This phase of his career is always fascinating for me, especially, in the framework of what we talk about on this podcast because we are in the thick of sad Bill Murray era, right? Which I was trying to figure out like when does this really begin?

And it's kind of so. It's Rushmore. Here's, I think it's a little bit before Rushmore. This is, well, well, Rushmore is, yes. I mean, it probably technically begins all the way in the 80s with the Razors Edge. Well, but I don't want to go through that far, but I feel like, so there's a little bit in Ed Wood, where a little bit where Burton sort of uses him in a little bit of a sort of like sad-faced kind of a way. Not that that hasn't always been a little bit part of Murray's whole thing, but I feel like you look at his 1996 output, where it's Kingpin, the Fairley Brothers Kingpin, Larger Than Life, where he co-stars with an Ellen. Elephant, Space Jam, and The Man Who Knew Too Little, which is all, it's a lot of silly. It's a lot of silly and not a ton of greatness. You know what I mean?

Like, some of those movies are remembered more fondly than others. But, like, I think the fact that you move from that stretch of movies into his rather small role in wild things, which is, like, darker. And, again, he's sort of like, he's the sad sack who knows. Nobody would have expected to be, you know, in on it. And then he ends up as he's in on it, right? That's the sort of hook of his character and Wild Things. Rushmore then.

So Rushmore and Wild Things are the same year. So I think you're right that Rushmore really does crack the code on here is what was lurking with Bill Murray all the time. Is this like impeccable, sad, beaten down, still incredibly funny, but in this like really low-key way where he's going to like sneakie. it in without you even realizing that he doesn't need to be Peter Venkman, he doesn't need to be the Groundhog Day guy, he can be funny while also being like just wrecked by life, right? And it's a huge hit. Like the performance is like across the board beloved. I forget, I often forget how dominant he was in the Critics Awards season that year, where he won New York, Los Angeles.

and national society. One, all three of those. It's rare. Nominated for Globe, not for SAG. And I don't think Critics' choice existed at this point. I don't know if that's necessarily true. Well, if they did, it would have been like

there was just a winner and a runner-up. Right. Yes. I think that is true. It's really surprising that he missed out on a nomination. Yeah. It's really surprising, especially because... He was the big snub of that morning, if I remember correctly. Well, and the fact that the winner ended up being James Coburn makes it all the more puzzling

because it's not like that, no shade against James Coburn. And no shade against his performance. It's actually quite a good performance, although it was in a movie that nobody saw. Well, the thing about affliction was like, that was a play for Nick Nolte. Yes. Nolte was winning the critics prizes. Nick Nolte was at one point a frontrunner for that to the point that, like, he gets fully eclipsed by Roberto Benini.

boo hiss. And it's weird because I do think there was enough heat for Nick Nolte that it played into James Coburn winning. James Coburn winning makes so much more sense if Nick Nolte also wins best actor. It makes all the sense in the world. It totally takes away the like what the fuck of that moment. And you're right. It was Nolte and Ian McKellen who were like neck and neck for that best actor prize until Roberto Benini came out of nowhere. And like totally came out of nowhere and launched himself onto seats basically but so i think now you look back at it again it's not like there was a ton of like we've got to finally award james coburn how have we not given james cobert an academy award right now there wasn't really that sort of moment

if anything ed harris had the more like we you know career momentum behind his nomination because he had been nominated for you know apollo 13 and people thought he was going to win that and he didn't. Yeah, he fully eclipsed Ed Harris that year, because Ed Harris, I think, wins the Globe, I think wins SAG. Yeah, yeah. People really thought that Ed Harris was going to do it. And the Truman Show was a much more visible and beloved movie in that award season. That's director nominee. Yeah. And so the fact that he gets, like Murray gets snubbed

there is probably, I will also say, probably more of an indication that Like, he, we probably should have seen that as a reason why to think he wasn't going to win when Lost in translation happens. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. So in between. And we could always save more of this for if we ever do Rushmore. Oh, we should do Rushmore at some point. But so even then, in between then, he still goes back to making like some broad comedies. He makes like, obviously like Osmosis Jones, although that's not really a Bill Murray movie, but like, you know.

Justice for Osmosis Jones. Sure. But then he's making, you know, he's in the. the Ethan Hawk Hamlet, and he's in Cradle Will Rock. And he plays Polonius in the Ethan Hawk Hamlet. Like, is that not kind of fantastic? But even like his... To me or not to be speech, correct me, if I'm misremembering, is in a blockbuster, right?

I believe that is correct. I really hope the, to thine own self be true speech, is in like a Taco Bell. A radio shack. It's in a Dean and Duluca on, yeah. in Newtown. It's in a pottery barn. But, like, this is where, like, he makes Charlie's Angels and famously, like, does not get along with anybody.

He's famously a full-on bastard. And his performance on screen really reflects the performance of a man who is not having a good time. Like, it is a real, in a movie that is otherwise very fun, and you can tell who is having fun making that movie, Sam Rockwell, and, of course, the three women at the center of it, are all having a very fantastic time. Ends up not being in the sequel. Right.

Gets recast with the Bernie Mac, you know, in the sequel. But anyway, rest and peace, Bernie. We're definitely into like Sadmurie era. So along comes the Royal Tennebombs where he's more of a side character. But again, that's sort of like he's really proving himself to be a great match for Wes Anderson's sensibilities. He's one of the funniest people in that movie, too. People don't talk about him in that movie. He's very funny.

All this sort of stuff with the like the behavior. year old psychology stuff that he's doing with the kid and the way he reacts to all of Margot's sort of cook holdings and it's really, really fantastic. And then his next movie after the Royal Tennebombs ends up being lost in translation, which is a sensation for him. And for a lot of people, it was a revelation, although a lot of people already knew that this was what he was capable of. And it really felt for a second like he was going to win best actor. And I think he thought so, because his reaction to not winning was, it was not a happy camper when Sean Penn beat him out for that Oscar.

And after that, we've talked about this a little bit when we talk about Jim Jarmish's broken flowers. After he loses the Oscar for Lost in Translation, immediately, talk turns to like, well, what's he going to win it for? Because clearly they owe him now. And he was that close. He came so close, it would be a shame to not, you know, I think everybody wanted that moment. They wanted the moment of the legendary funny man has now won for a, you know, largely dramatic role. And so then all of a sudden, the next several movies, if he's in anything close to a lead role, there's going to be some buzz to it, right?

So, like, Life Aquatic with Steve Zissu is the next movie that comes along. and there were people who were like frontrunner. He is the frontrunner for Best Actor in 2004 because we owe it to him. And Wes Anderson had gotten a screenplay nomination for Tenenbaum, so he's got some momentum. This is going to be a breakthrough for Wes Anderson. This is going to be Bill Murray's Oscar movie. It's just going to happen. And it very much didn't.

Very much did not. I mean, I forget where I mean, like, who's probably like, Gold Derby or something at the time, where it was like people, once they saw the movie, immediately called him out because this character is so unlikable. Yeah. It's, it's, it is very strange to me that he wasn't Globe nominated for this. We've talked about this Globe comedy lineup before, but like, because, purely just because of that momentum, I think it does speak to how unliked this movie was.

And of course, like, the movie conceivably would have been ready, right? It's not like one of those situations where the globes didn't see it, considering when they normally announce and when the limited release started for this movie. But the nominee lineup, we've talked about this before, Jamie Fox wins for Ray, obviously, Jim Carrey for Eternal Sunshine, Paul Giamatti for Sideways, and then the one-two punch of Kevin Klein for DeLovely and Kevin Spacey for Beyond the Sea. So this category, I'll come at it from two ways.

One of the ways is Kevin Spacey's embarrassingly terrible and Beyond the Sea, and not only because he was insanely miscast as Bobby Darren, but also it's just a cringy performance across the board. And it was this was the case before we all decided that we were going to retroactively pretend we all always hated Kevin Spacey. And this was cringy then. This was cringy before, you know, everything else came to light about Kevin Spacey. On the other side of it, Jamie Fox winning for Ray, for musical or comedy, is a farce.

I know there's a lot of music in Ray. Ray is not a musical. I know that the Golden Globes have fudged this line in many instances. It's way less egregious than a lot of other past ones, though. I think that that may be true, but I, I, nonetheless, Ray is all, Ray is in that basket of movies where I just feel like it is, it's disingenuous to call that movie a musical. Spiritually it is not a musical. There is not enough music in it to be a musical. It is a drama.

It is a dramatic film with songs. And I think a lot of, a lot of that movie, that award season's sort of disappointments are alleviated a little bit if just like just let Paul Jamadi or Jim Carrey win Best Comedy. They were giving comedic

performances. Do you know what I mean? I'm not usually a hardliner about that kind of a thing. I mean that's definitely some campaign trickery because at that point the Aviator was the front runner for Best Picture so they were the Ray campaign was probably

trying to get out of the way of the... But ultimately, they didn't need to. It's not like... No, they absolutely didn't need to. He would have absolutely beaten Leo just like he would have for the Oscar, but this is the way campaigning was.

Yeah. No, I agree. I agree with you. And not to say that Bill Murray would have won had he been nominated, I just think it's very surprising, given the type of narrative that he had from the year before, that he didn't. But I also feel like, because one of the things that people didn't like about the life aquatic

was that it was more, it was nastier and more of a bummer than they really, like, the lack of real Bill Murray. Well, but right, but also the fact that like the lack of comedy in it, sufficient comedy in it, was

one of the reasons why people didn't like it. I think that probably played into it too. Do you know? Right. The famously hilarious to lovely. No, but But that's, but again, but at least DeLovely has a much easier claim on being a musical than, you know, something like Ray does, right?

I don't know. There's probably just as many musical sequences. You forget, Ray has a lot of music in it. I'm standing by this. I think DeLovly is structured. You can stand by it. I don't disagree. It's not like we're arguing whether or not my week with Marilyn is a musical or not. Okay, but was my week with Maryland considered a musical, or was my week with

Maryland considered a comedy. I think they were very unwilling to... It's insane either way. It's insane either way. But yes. Yeah. I also just want to sort of like dip into this era of Wes Anderson because we, you know, we got into this before about how we really kind of couldn't get arrested by the Academy

outside of the screenplay category. We've never had an actor nominated. Right. That's the crazy thing. So like, and Rushmore, again, Murray, wins Los Angeles Film Critics, New York Film Critics, National Society of Film Critics, wins the Independent Spirit Award and is nominated for a Golden Globe. No Oscar nominations. Royal Tenenbaum's is nominated for screenplay at the Oscars. It wins the Golden Globe for Gene Hackman.

He won the National Society of Film Critics for Best Actor. And then the screenplay was shortlisted by BAFTA, Writers Guild, New York Critics. And then the Critics Choice gave that movie an ensemble. nomination. Life Aquatics only major nomination is an ensemble nomination from the critics' choice. And then Darjeeling, it's only thing, I jotted this down, it won best comedy film at the Movies for Grownups Awards. So, good for that. That's weird, considering the only person in it over 50 is Angelica Houston, and West Anderson was definitely not 50 when that movie was made. Well, Bill Murray is running for the train at the beginning of that movie and doesn't make it. But yes, you're...

Oh, I forget that. You're correct. So, but yeah, it is, it's, it's an irksome trend with Wes Anderson's films that no, at no point does he get an actor nominated, even when, as we said, he gets a bigillion nominations for Grand Budapest Hotel. He can't get his lead actor nominated. It's, it is telling in the way that, like, this is how Academy members see his movies, which are aesthetic objects rather than actorly, you know, opportunities. But I also feel like acting and screenplay tend to go hand in hand, right? So if he's getting a screenplay nomination for Royal Tenen Bombs, it's puzzling that, you know, the acting in that wouldn't get recognized as well.

What I will observe about this with the caveat that there are some like egregious examples that are not the case like Ray Fines, Gene Hackman, Bill Murray and Rushmore, I think in a lot of his movies, all these actors are on a level playing field, where it's like, it's not favoring any particular performer. It's hard to pick out one person from Moonrise Kingdom. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's true. It's hard to, I mean, well, I mean, that's an animated movie. I'm not going to say fantastic Mr. Fox.

but, like, in that way, that it's like everybody is kind of given equal footing. Yeah, I think that's going to be part of the reason why it's going to be tough for Jeffrey Wright to accumulate awards momentum for French dispatch, even though I feel like the kind of anthology nature of that movie does, might help him out a little bit because he is the lead of his little section of the movie. movie, right? So maybe that does help. And his is the last of those sections, and it's the most impactful. So I'm still holding a little bit of a torch for him in that movie, because I do think he's wonderful. Do we want to do a little ranking, then? I think we should. I think we owe it

to the great performances in Wes Anderson movies. I love this. What are we ranking? So we were sort of debating whether we wanted to each sort of give our Wes Anderson movie rankings, to rank our top five performances. And again, because the performances in his movies so rarely get the shine that they deserve, we're going to each deliver our top five performances in Wes Anderson movies. Me being me, I have some honorable mentions as well. I definitely have honorable mentions, too, because, like, we just illustrated, there is a lot of level playing field here, and it's like, you know,

It would be very different if we were maybe ranking the ensembles as a whole of West Anderson movies. But what are some ones that you would have thrown out? I almost threw someone from Fantastic Mr. Fox in there. If I'm going to pick one, honestly, I think I would pick Jason Schwartzman, who for an actor I don't particularly care for, I think, is really funny in that movie in particular. And, like, it's so, to me, and my taste for him as an actor, I feel like it's so funny that he is basically playing this petulant little boy. Yes. He's really great in that. He probably should be my selection for Mr. Fox.

I went with somebody else. Obviously, my side pick from Fantastic's Mr. Fox is Isabella Pair as Mrs. Fox in the French version of Fantastic Mr. Fox. You are nothing, if not a... She should be in a Wes Anderson movie. She would be great. I would love that. For as much as she killed it in Aihard Huckabees, and I know that's not the same thing,

but, like, it's a big ensemble and for a, you know, very particular director. You could see her in any of the roles that, like, Francis has played. So my runner's up. I put Jeffrey Wright in French Dispatchen runner up because that movie has not opened yet and not everybody's gotten to see it,

but I think, ask me in a year, and he'll definitely be in my... top five for that. I had on a short list, Edward Norton in Moonrise Kingdom. He's really, really funny in that in a way. All of the kids in Moonrise Kingdom getting like a single honorable mention because the kids are so funny, not even just the two leads. Right. The shout out Lucas Hedges. I think actually Adrian Brody is quite good in Jersey Ling Limited. I know he is not everybody's fave. He's not always my fave, but I

think he's quite good in that movie. I think any number of the people in the Royal Tenen bombs, including but not limited to Owen Wilson, Ben Stiller, it's a lot of Angelica Houston. There's a lot of good.

I had a hard time with Royal Tenen bombs because, like, everybody has a moment that they get to be great. I think the one that's probably not on my list, that would be most likely, is Angelica Houston. Angelica Houston, I think she's wonderful. All right, so who is your, give me your list from five to one.

One other name I would shout out on a runners-up that is not on my list. I would also say Tony Revely and Grand Budapest. That's a great choice. That's a really good choice. Well picked. Such a fun performance. Okay, so my number five. I went with not one of the most praise performances from Rushmore,

but I think the very best. I said Olivia Williams in Rushmore. That's a great pick. She's good. She's got a tricky role in that, too. She has a really tricky role. I think she gives that movie its emotional undercurrent, and also like it's kind of more prickly textures to it too,

on top of Bill Murray's, to be honest. Yeah, I think she's great, and I don't think she gets talked about in that movie. I'd love to see her in another Wes Anderson movie. Who's your number five? Oh, are we going to do one to one? That's sort of how we're going to... Sure, yeah, why not?

I feel like we're going to be talking about... There's at least going to be a performance or two that we're going to be... I think we're going to overlap quite a bit, actually. My fifth is also from... excuse me, is also from Rushmore, mine is Jason Schwartzman from Rushmore. I think that is a sort of instantly recognizable character that is cranked up to sort of a Wes Anderson degree, this overly precocious, irritating sort of apple polishing in a

really kind of particular way, precocious monster in a way that like I really love. think that is for Schwartzman to put his stamp on that character to the point where like it's hard to separate Max Fisher from any other Schwartzman performance and I think he's

so, so, so effective with creating that character. I love it. So my number four is a very understated performance. So I like debated not putting this in there and putting it in an honorable

mention, but I do actually feel really strongly about this. This performance, it's one of those things where a director knows exactly how to use an actor in a way that they haven't been used before that is really smart about that performer's screen persona. And again, it's very understated, but I think it's a perfect performance. And it's Bruce Willis in Moonrise Kingdom. So you and the... You and the Independent Spirit Award voters are on the same page here, shockingly.

Everybody is wonderful in that movie, but Bruce Willis, I think, I don't know. It's just, it made me feel for a minute like he was going to, you know, start doing a more interesting, understated work. And I was proven completely wrong by his choices of moving towards, you know, almost entirely direct to DVD bargain big. movies. I think he's just really lovely. I think it's, you know, it is a quintessential Bruce Willis performance in a way that's unlike any other quintessential Bruce Willis performance and just his presence among that ensemble. I find very sweet. I have owed that movie a rewatch for a while. I definitely want to get to it probably in French Dispatch season when that ends up opening because you wouldn't be wrong to pick anybody from moonrise kingdom in a top five

even like i debated bob ballaban um he's so great in that he's so wonderful i mean there's so many reasons why moonrise kingdom is my favorite west anderson movie but like i think the textures that bruce willis is allowed to play speak to what that movie is and what that movie is after in a way that I really enjoy. Very nice. Who's your number four? So this is tough. I'm already at like, how am I? All right, I think I'm going to stick actually with Rushmore for my number four and have Murray from Rushmore fall in here. Not because he's not worthy of being number one on any list, just because I feel like my

top three I have such stronger feelings for. But like, I mean, what, you know, what more can we say? We've talked to, we've talked about it. It is a complete reinvention of his screen persona despite the fact that like it's drawing upon things that we all already knew were there. And it is the perfect counterpoint to what Schwartzman is doing as Max. And it is it is low key while still being so dynamic in a way that, like, it's really hard to do. It's really hard to be, like, that captivating while exteriorly being, like, muted in that way.

And it's, I don't know, it's just great. It's great stuff. I love it. He's amazing. He should have been nominated. Yes, he should. It's not in my top five. All right.

Even though maybe I should have put in there. I don't get. My number three, a performance I know we both like. I would love to see it show. in your ranking. It's Willem Defoe in The Life Aquatic. Well done. He's not in my top five, but I'm glad that you put him in yours. He is very much, I think, the best performance of the movie. I think he captures the tone and theme of the movie, the best that it is all basically about childish ego and machismo, but also incredibly funny in the way that, you know,

Willem DeFoe is so prolific that it's like you can't really say he doesn't get to do this that often, but like he really doesn't get to be funny in the way that he is funny in this all that often. Like the closest analog to this performance that I can think of is the lighthouse, right? Which is basically the same character. He's just wonderful. He's one of our finest comic actors, Willembeau. He's very funny. He's so lovable in this movie. movie. Also, like, we haven't talked about the iconic team Zissu costuming yet. It looks

funnier on no one more so than Willem Defoe. No, it's true. And it also is like an iconic fit on him. It's like, it's funny, but you also, he makes you want to go out and buy a team Zissu outfit. Chris, you've got a good three weeks until Halloween. It is not too late for this, for a team Zisu to be your holiday costume. I was wearing my team Zisu hat when I watched the movie. I'm saying you're more than halfway you're halfway there I believe in you I feel like you listen these thighs honey I've been working on my legs

I would look good in a team's issue outfit let me just say it I'll be the one to say it I'm demanding it all right my number three which uh you know pick me on a on a different day and this could be my number one I love this performance so much it's Gwyneth Paltrow and the Royal Tenembaum's almost my five Margot Tenenbaum is absolutely my favorite character from a Wes Anderson movie.

I just, I adore her. I adore the frowny expression on her face. I adore the way she takes a bath and is so dedicated to not moving that she has figured out a way to control the television and the doorknob with her foot. It's, every line reading is so good. Every, the moment where Royal says that she doesn't have a middle name and she just goes, Helen, like that, it just kills me. And she's still able to sell what I think is the weakest part of that film, which is the Margot and Richie sort of incestuous thing there,

that, like, is the closest that movie comes to sort of hopping the tracks and going awry. But I think that she and Luke Wilson are really able to keep that on the right side of things for the most part. And she's insanely funny. And I think if the country, and by the country, I mean movie dorks weren't so dedicated to hating her after Shakespeare in love for inexplicable reasons. she could have gotten a supporting actress nomination, and it would have been hugely deserved because she rules in that movie. She's so funny. Okay, you've made me feel bad that she's not on my top five. You are right about everything that you have said. She's great. She's so great. All right. Who is your number two?

My number two definitely should have been nominated. We've talked about it already. It's Ray finds in the Grand Budapest Hotel. If there's anything that makes me return to that movie, that I don't like, it's him. He is sensational. Like, the type of iconic, comedic performance that just throws away every funny line. And, like, I feel like that movie is, like, fueled by his performance. Like, I think it's maybe the one performance in all of Wes Anderson movies that feel like that performance. at the wheel of that automobile

rather than Wes Anderson in certain moments of the film. Yeah, I don't know why it hasn't completely... I don't want to say it's like one of the most underrated performances of the modern era, but like I don't know why we aren't in an era of justice for Ray Fines. It feels like the type of performance

that should be, you know, fueling him to an Oscar win for a less interesting performance, like happens with so many people. Yeah. Yeah. As me as I am about the movie, I am incredibly effusive about him in it. Well, Ray Fines is my number two as well.

Everything you said is absolutely correct. And I think we're going to have the same number one. I mean, probably if neither one of us has mentioned it, yeah. But everything you said about Ray Fines is correct. I sometimes marvel at the fact that the first time I and I think probably most people became aware of him was his Oscar-nominated performance as a ruthless Nazi in Schindler's List. And the fact that that's how, it's like where it started, where it's going, it's just like it started with ruthless Nazi in Schindler's list. And now he's like one of our most like gifted, funny dramatic actors.

Do you know what I mean? We're like, he can be in Grand Budapest Hotel or in Bruges or Hail Caesar. And he's just astounded. good. Oh, my God. Why doesn't he have a second Oscar for Hail Caesar? I'm saying. I'm saying. Actually, that should be Alden Aaron Reich's Oscar. It should be Alden Aaron Rex Oscar, but like, he should have been effusively thanked in that Oscar, in that acceptance speech, because that, obviously, the, what did the work? Wood this were so simple scene is one of the great scenes. What is what is the simple? Yeah, can't say anything else beyond what you've said. It's a performance that is funny. both verbally and physically in a way that, like, it excels at both of those things. It's, it's fantastic. I just have to further complain for a second, because I pulled it up because I really had to just confirm. His only Oscar nominations are Schindler's List and the English patient.

I know. He hasn't been nominated since 1996. It's crazy. It's crazy. Psycho. He's one of the best living actors. 25 years. You're saying in 25.

years. This man has not given a performance that's been worthy of an Oscar nomination. You're a liar. You're a liar if you say that. Some of it is like it's very easy to underrate this guy because he does a lot of things that either we don't care about like Cori Elena's or like tiny roles and things that are just like, okay. Well, and he also spent the better part of a decade playing like Voldemort, but it's not like he wasn't also making movies during that time. He made Grand Budapest during that time. He made in Bruges. during that time. Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess he made Grand Budapest after. He was liberated from Voldemort and gave his finest performance. When was the last Harry Potter movie? Oh, please. Grand Budapest is 2014.

Final Harry Potter was 2011. Oh, wow. I guess I, uh, well, whatever. Anyway, yes. All right, so, uh, let's, let's lay down our number one. I do feel like we have the same one. Uh, I mean, uh, I just,

feel like who else could it be but jean hackman yeah it's jean hackman and royal town moms he plays such scumbum in that movie in the most lovable way there are no fewer there are like two handfuls of perfect line readings in that movie the part like and it's not even like the big ones it's him talking to the twin boys and being like i'm very so i'm so sorry about your mother she was a terribly attractive woman like it's just let's go shag ass yeah it's so great but also also he he is incredibly lovable and it's like we in the audience are on a completely different uh side level of experience with this guy than his family is but like right right it's not just the text that makes us understand or like the uh you know we we believe these other characters

to hate him. There is something in his performance that it's like, you, you are a bad person, you know? Yes. Oh, yeah. And, like, it's remarkably, like, both vain and unvane performance. The whole, this, the best scene in the movie, to me, is the reason why I almost put Angelica Houston in there is when he

does, when he, like, bombards her on the street and, like, I'm dying. And then she has the breakdown. To get her to stop growing, he's like, I'm not dying. It's the best. Yeah, he like flip-flops on her like twice. It's, yeah. And like, the emotion that Incheleuka Houston brings to it, too, is like so, like, sudden and real that, like, is very true to the tone of the movie. Uh, he's just so special. And we missed a real, they miss a real fucking opportunity to nominate him for that because that's not the role he retired on, but he basically retired shortly after then.

Right. And like, I don't know. What a note to go out. There was one of those things going around online that like someone checked in on Gene Hackman and they posted a picture of him. Of course, I'm crying immediately when I see it. Yeah. Like, he's like, doing well enjoying retirement, but he looks so old.

He looks very old. He does. It's just like this, I think the Royal Tenenbombs is going to be the performance that we remember him for. The Royal Tenenbombs. for other movies. Yeah. The Royal Tenenbaum is the most emotionally affecting of Wes Anderson's movies to me. It is my favorite, and it doesn't work on that level unless Gene Hackman is doing the work that he is doing. That movie really coalesces around, can these kids sort of reconnect with this man, forgive this man, can they all sort of like patch up these wounds enough to sort of have these moments with each other? And it's really, Also, can he earn that forgiveness, too? Right, right, exactly.

But I think, like, that movie doesn't end up at the place that it does without him giving both sides of that character perfectly. And also the way he says, that's the last time you put a knife in me when, after Pagoda Stabs him, is also very funny. It's both of those things. The way that movie ends, too, like, before Royal actually died. Like, you do actually feel like a sense of mourning. when he dies, but, like, I always think of, like, how he earns the tears from Ben Stiller when Ben Stiller's, like, I'm having a really hard time, Dad.

That's the moment where you do actually feel the reconciliation, too, because, like, that, you know, his children can be that vulnerable with him. Yeah, yeah. All right. I'm glad we are in agreement on that. Very good. Gene Hackman, we love you. Anything else we want to say about the Life Aquatic with Steve Zisoo before we move on.

I mean, in terms of my Wes Anderson rankings, it's probably somewhere in like middle or high middle, but I think people should give it another shot. Give it another shot. They're a definite, like, it's imperfections will make themselves known to you. And yet it's the worst reviewed Wes Anderson movie, but I don't think it's like the worst perceived West Anderson movie. No, I think, again, I feel like Darjeeling is definitely seen as. generally accepted as worse than Life Aquatic, but I think it's very interesting

in ways that we've talked about why Life Aquatic felt like a betrayal or whatever for critics who were I feel like high on Royal Tenemmoms and rightly so. But yeah, I think, I'm glad we did this.

I've glad we sort of got our Wes Anderson episode in. I go and see the French dispatch and see for yourself. might like it more than you think you're going to. I would also say, look at this year's art direction, Oscar nominees, and I challenge you to remember any of those sets as much as you remember the boat from this movie. Yeah.

Who were the nominees? The winner is the Aviator, houses, like, you know, airliner, you know, housing facilities, whatever you call those things. Hangers? Hangers, thank you. Lemony Snicket's a series of unfortunate events. Right. You know, angular houses.

Right. A very long engagement. French countryside. Sure. Phantom of the Opera. Sure. And finding Neverland. British houses.

British houses. Jesus Christ. That movie is a scourge. Everywhere you turn that year at the Oscars, it's getting a nomination it shouldn't have gotten. It makes, you look at the full Oscar lineup up this year and it makes complete sense that the craft of life aquatic wouldn't be appreciated because there's like no room for whimsy. Everything is so serious. The closest to whimsy that you get is lemony snickets, which is like, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Also, but like that's the other thing is like the fact that it took until Grand Budapest Hotel for a Wes Anderson movie to get an art direction nomination is absolutely insane. And it really shows like, Like, I don't know what it, it shows something. I don't know how to end that sentence. I mean, like, I remember reading the E.W. Fall movie preview for this and being like, oh, this is going to be a set design nomination because, like, they were touting the sets even then.

And they were talking about how, like, this was shot on Felini's sound stages. And I was like, oh, okay, well, this is going to be a thing. And I think the taste level was just not there for it. It's not what people wanted. Well, it's stupid. And they're stupid. And they should feel bad about themselves. Very dumb.

stupid. All right. We want to move on to the IMDB game? Yeah. Why don't you tell our lovely listeners what the IMDB game is? Why don't I? Well, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and that, blah, blah, blah. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints.

That's the IMDB game. Joe, my lovely friend, would you like to give her guess first? I'll give first. Oh, whomst do you have for me? I'm a little surprised we haven't done this person. I did a little checking just to make sure, but I don't think we have. One of the stars of the French Dispatch, I think when I talked about it in our New York Film Festival episode. I did mention that this was my least favorite sections of the French Dispatch, and yet, you know, attention must be paid. He is an Oscar

winner. His name is Benicio del Toro, and I'm going to ask you to provide his known for. He is in Grand Budapest, right? Because Grand Budapest is one of those movies that shows up a ton. Why do I think he's in Grand Budapest? I don't think he is. Not according to IMDB. Okay. Well, that's fine. I'm going to say his Oscar win traffic. Correct. The usual suspects. Correct. The first movie that anybody really saw him in?

Because he won Indy Spirit for that. I think that's right. The question is, do I think his other Oscar nomination for 21 grams is going to be there? I'm going to say yes. 21 grams. Budo. Ah, well, okay. Sicario?

Secario? Very good. You have three of the four with only one strike. I don't think that the Sicario sequel is there. Thank God. Scrub that thing from the face of the earth. Yes. Hmm. Oh, another large ensemble, inherent vice.

No, but good guess, but no. All right. So now you get the hint. Your clue is 2014. The same year as inherent vice. And the same year as Grand Budapest Hotel, which we have confirmed he is not in. He's not in. Why did I think he was in that?

I thought he was one of those people in the whole, like, everybody's in that. Willem DeFoe, Mishigas. Yeah, everybody's in that, that's why. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. 2014, same year as Inherent Vice, same year as Grand Budapest Hotel. Again, another large ensemble. The MCU, he is in Guardians of the Galaxy.

Indeed, he is in Guardians of the Galaxy. On the heels of his post-credits appearance in Thor, the Dark World, he shows up in Guardians of the Galaxy. I will say, much of a Marvel fan as I am, I never. have quite gotten on board with his performance as the collector. It's just it really is a lot of faffing around.

And honestly, good for him. Like, get your paycheck and all, but I've never quite... Same for Glenn Close in that movie. Get paid. It's fine. Yeah. Same for Jim and Hallsu. Like, a lot of paychecks going around.

She deserves better than that. I don't think anyone is screwed over an actor more than Glenn Close has been screwed over by the MCU. The thing about him in Guardians of the Galaxy is that, like, he's supposed to show up to be the fun and weird cookie character. And it's like, that doesn't work because everyone in this movie is a fun, cookie character? Everybody is. Like, yeah, exactly.

That's exactly it. Cool. All right. So for you, I have someone that we also, shockingly, haven't done. I almost didn't pull up this person. And I feel like maybe there's been other times that I would have pulled this person. but it was like, oh, no, we've definitely done this before. We haven't, per our records, another Wes Anderson performer,

one who you have praised very highly and I have snubbed. It's Gwyneth. My dear darling Gwyneth, I love her so much. All right. Well, obviously Shakespeare in Love. Correct. All right. now where do we go from here

I'm I think the other thing about choosing this performer is especially for you once it gets to the years I think you're going to get it I well I think that's definitely true because we can chart her career very easily so there's a couple different angles to this one is that like is any one of

the Avengers slash Ironman movie is going to show up in there because it's quite a lot of them and she's pretty prominent in those Iron Man movies but then the question is which one and then it's also which of the 90s Gwyneth Paltrow movies is she remembered enough for to show up

all right I'm going to guess seven no damn it I'm going to guess the first Iron Man no oh god terrible

your years are 1996, 1998, and 2013. I was going to guess this. Is 96 Emma? Emma! Damn it! I should have guessed it. All right. What are the other two?

98 and 2013. Another 98. Is it a perfect murder? No. 98, same year as Shakespeare in Love, a year before, Mr. Ripley. Sliding Doors.

Sliding Doors. Sliding Doors is a movie that, like, conceivably has already been turned into a musical we've forgotten about, right? Like, why isn't sliding doors a musical? Well, it's if then. Never mind. It's if then. Right. It's if then.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right. What's the other year? 2013. Is this Iron Man 3? It's Iron Man 3. And you know why it's probably Iron Man 3?

It's the most Gwyneth of the three of them. Sure, but it's how she's credited, because it's not going to be Iron Man 2. People are happy to forget about Iron Man too. And in Iron Man, she gets the and credit, right? And this one, she's second build. She's second build. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm positive, that's why.

Yeah, I was flipping a coin mentally between Iron Man and Iron Man 3, and I was flipping a coin mentally between Seven and Emma, and I guessed wrong in both of those occasions. So great. Let me pull this up because I'm positive. She's second-pilled in this movie. She's not. She's third build after Guy Pearce. After Guy Pearce, yeah.

Yeah. Does Rebecca Hall get the and, or does she just, like, she's just fourth built? Let me see. Doesn't, see, IMDB, on top of being an interminable hellscape these days, should really tell us when a with or an and credit is there. On my laundry list of complaints about IronCade. MDB, that is definitely on there. But also, it's just like, stop hurting me with your layout.

Please stop hurting me. It's on a mission to make my computer crash at all times. Yeah, it's the worst. No, the and credit is Ben Kingsley. Rebecca Hall is not even built. Oh, sure, of course. Remember when Rebecca Hall was supposed to be Jessica Chastain? I do.

I do remember that. Have you seen Shang Chi yet? I haven't. Ben Kingsley... It's like the only Marvel movie that I haven't been given a screening or a screener for. It's... I loved it. I really loved it. And Ben Kingsley showing up there was so, like, kind of delightful to me. Like, because I really did love the way his character played out in Iron Man 3, and it's kind of fantastic in Shang-Chi. Highly recommended. Awesome.

Joe, I think that's our episode. Listeners, if you want more This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscorbus.com. You should also follow us on Twitter at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Joe, tell our listeners where they can find more of you in the depths of the ocean if they try to go there by submersible. You can find me swimming with the crayon pony fish on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D.

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