This Had Oscar Buzz - 170 – Holy Smoke (with Jourdain Searles)

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

We have two exciting returns this week! First, entertainment writer and Bad Romance co-host Jourdain Searles is joining us once again. Second, we return to the work of Jane Campion, this time for 1999′s divisive and sexually charged Holy Smoke. The film premiered in competition at the Venice Film Festival with a high pedigree: Campion … Continue reading "170 – Holy Smoke (with Jourdain Searles)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. They're about to experience an awakening. You want to sleep with me, don't you?

I'm a regular person, and you know it. Both spiritual. What about you kiss me? No, Ruth, I can't do that. And sexual. Take my pants off. I think we better phone your mother. I don't think mom's pine him to.

You're out of control. You didn't seem to mind last night. From Academy Award winner, Jane Cambion, director of the piano. When I'm still alive, and I'm here! Miramax Films presents Academy Award nominees, Kate Winslet, and Harvey Kytel in an all-out battle of the sexes. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that will ritualistically flay you if you vote for Marcos.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations. But for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my cult leader, who also gets introduced with Neil Diamond songs, Joe Reed. Yes. Man, the Neil Diamond that was front-loaded in this movie is somewhat right to check that the rest of the movie can't cash, because I was sort of, when you used two Neil Diamond songs that early in the movie, I'm sort of expecting

it to be like a whole Neil Diamond experience the whole way through, and that was not the case. But still, I was happy for two songs. It's still a really great soundtrack, though. Also, made me reassess my Neil Diamond thoughts because of course like Sweet Caroline is a scourge on the culture But that's not his fault It's not his fault. It's just like the omnipresence of it is so oppressive to me But like the The Neil Diamond songs in this movie made me think like

Wait, is Neil Diamond like hot? Is it like sexy music or is it just Harvey Keitel? No, it's kind of it's the kind of hot where it's just like, well, this isn't supposed to be hot, but so it is a little hot. And also, he's on a little rebound of being in movie trailers now, because he was, there was a, obviously the once upon a time in Hollywood trailer had one of his songs, but there was another one recently, and now I'm not going to be able to remember it. But if anybody listening can, can remind me on Twitter, what's the other recent movie trailer with a Neil Diamond song? and I would be very appreciative. But anyway, I don't want to get too far afield, but I also need to hear,

I don't want to get too far afield before we bring in our guests, one of our favorite guests returning to us because I have to hear her Neil Diamond thoughts as well coming back to us. Our good friend, Jordane Sorrells, is here. Yay! Thanks so much for having me back.

Welcome back. We are always thrilled to have you. Um, especially, okay, we did this a little different. Usually we have our guests pick the movie, unless it's like a miniseries or something. This is a movie we knew we wanted to do. We're doing Jane Campions, Holy smokes. Holy Smoke today. Holy Smoke.

Holy smokes. That's me walking out of the theater. Holy smokes. Holy smokes. That feels very Midwestern. And we, well, that's me. Hi. Um, and when we set this, I was like, ooh.

when we, if we talk about this movie, we have to get Jordane on. Because you are, I feel like you are kind of my Jane Campion friend. You are at least the person who like, I kind of credit the resurgence of in the cut in public favor. And like we did it in the cut episode before we were friends. And I feel like this has to make up for getting you on to talk about Jane Campion.

because, like, you have talked about and written so smartly about her work specifically in the cut. So, like, I am excited to talk to you about this movie today. Yeah. I mean, it's also great because I've been working on a review of Power of the Dog that I should have finished a long time ago. But I went back to watch a lot of her movie. So a lot of them refresh in my mind. And Holy Smoke was a movie that I had, like, I had already rented it and I had already planned to watch it when you asked me. That's amazing timing, yeah.

In fact, I think I had noticed that you had, like, logged it on letterbox or whatever, and I was like, that seems prescient because, like, that's interesting that, like, you had watched it by then, and I was just like, wait a second, does she know somehow, psychically that we're going to have her on to talk about this movie, so. Yes, I did. And I also, I subjected a boy to it, love to subject a boy to a movie that makes him uncomfortable. sure yes definitely did that but yeah i holy smoke is one of those movies where i i knew that it existed and a lot of a lot of people don't even know that it exists and i had this image in my brain of harpy kytel in the desert in a red dress i couldn't remember anything else except that image. Jane Campion is really the preeminent sexualizer of Harvey Keitel in film.

I feel like between this and the piano, I feel like my two main images of like Harvey Kytel sexuality are really shaped by Jane Campion. Well, there's also a bad lieutenant, which is like the same time, or maybe it was right before a little earlier, where he does full frontal. Yeah. But I don't think that's not. necessarily, you know. Yeah, no, nobody watches that

Lieutenant and thinks, yeah, no, he's super hot. Though he is hot in that movie, but yeah, I get exactly what you mean. But the piano really did, like, when we saw that ass, like, he had... Harvey Keitel's ass in the 90s is a real

institution. It's really beautiful. It was really great. I mean, you know, also, you know, Holly Hunter's ass in that movie was good, too, but you tell by like the gaze of the camera that we're supposed to be looking at him. Absolutely. Holy Smoke is really interesting in that respect too,

especially if you go into like the way that that movie was received and reviewed. And a lot of the reviews really focused on Kate Winslet and her, you know, sexuality and her being naked in the movie. And there was a lot of like, even like, you know, not even just sort of like the old white man guard or whatever but like there were like young hip critics who were talking just like endlessly about like Kate Winslet's voluptuous body and yada yada yada yada and I'm just like yeah yes like yes and also

she's amazing but like it's interesting that that was sort of the lens through which we were viewing Kate Winslet at the time and it makes Holy Smoke even more of a twin with in the cut in Campions, like, filmography, because, like, the two of them, I think, are temperamentally sort of speak to each other a little bit, and in the cut was totally dominated by this idea of, like, Meg Ryan, naked, what's going on? Like, yada, yada, yeah, yeah, that's true. And I was, I was rewatching in the cut. With that same boy that I subjected to Holy Smoke, it's like, okay, I made you watch Holy Smoke. Yeah, you broke him in.

uncomfortable for you. So let's do in the cut, a film that you were probably much more comfortable with than he was. But we were watching the scene where Meg Ryan is nude, the nude scenes. And he was just like, okay, you told me that people were upset about her being naked in this movie, but I don't get it. And it's just like, well, you see, she's supposed to be unattractive. And he was just like, I don't get it.

And I was just like, yeah, no, I mean, you have the correct opinion. I also don't get it. She looks really hot. But, yeah, the way that she was talked about back then is so confusing to me. I don't know what people were on. Did they just, like, not like bushes or like, I, my general guess is that people were just uncomfortable with the idea of Meg Ryan being nude, period. Yes, I think that was 100%.

I think Meg Ryan being that sexualized in that way really freaked people out. and they did not want that. And it's not even just that she's nude, but, like, she's talking about, like, come in the cut, too, which, I mean, which is absurd to me. I feel like we talked about this on her episode, but it's absurd to me because, like, one of the most iconic Meg Ryan, you know, screen moments

is her faking an orgasm. Why does it freak people out that much? I mean, like, in the cut is still a tough movie. Like, it, you know, sex and violence is in this interplay in a way that is designed to make people uncomfortable. But in terms of, like, Meg Ryan's sexuality in that movie, I don't understand why it freaks people out so much. Well, Chris, it makes me think of, we did a movie a few weeks ago. We did the counselor, the Cameron Diaz movie, and that one where her, you know, scene with the car where she's, you know, sexing the car. Full titan.

And that one, obviously, like, that threw a lot of people for a loop. And it wasn't a thing I really brought up on the podcast, but a thing that I thought was just like, oh, it's wild, fully wild. But, like, that scene was the bridge too far for a lot of people. And yet, what's, like, one of the most famous scenes she's known for is, like, like, swipe and come through her hair and it sticks up straight in the air in, uh, something about Mary. You know what I mean? It's just like it's that context, right? Where it's just like if it's safely comedic and we can sort of put it in a box that we're laughing at and whatever, cool. If we're supposed to take it even, and I don't even know how much we're supposed to take it seriously in the counselor, but like certainly in the cut. That is a

movie that you, you know, you're certainly not supposed to be able to like laugh it off or whatever. And it's, people aren't ready for it. People don't want it. It all loops back to Kate Winslet in a really interesting way because we'll talk about this because she ended up becoming like the actress who was known for getting naked but like in terms of this movie's reception

and the like you know response by straight male critics in like you said the old guard is like Kate Winslet also has probably the most famous or one of the most famous nude scenes ever in a movie and that's Titanic so

yes Like, this is her peeing on screen. Yeah, I get why this was more for people. And I, like, not to, not to ever doubt Jane Campion's choices as a director. But, like, in the way that we see it, like, that could have been faked. She didn't, we didn't necessarily need to subject Kate Winslet to the stress of having to pee on screen. I mean, do we know, I would love to know how she felt about it. That's the thing that I would interview her for.

What was it like to be? Did you enjoy that? Was it a long day? Was it just going to happen anyway? You know? Yeah. Saved you a break or something. Yeah.

It's a really fascinating. I'm really interested to talk about it with you guys, this movie, because it's a movie. I was saying to Chris before we started recording. I'd seen it before, but I had seen it like when it was pretty new. It was like pretty early 2000s when I saw it. I was like in my very early 20s, I was fascinated by any kind of cinema that seemed daring or unconventional or, you know, this was, you know, this was really doing something. Jane Campion's really making a swing here. And so I was really fascinated and really, you know, impressed by it.

Watching it now, I like it less. I think it's less successful. and but it's still a big swing. Like, it's still undeniably a big swing. And I'm really fascinated to hear what you guys thought of it because I could see this as the kind of movie that, like, opinions probably should be, like, all across the spectrum for it.

Yeah. I mean, I definitely think it needs the type of reassessment that in the cut has received, partly because, like, this movie almost feels like it only exists as a factoid, like, already, because the power of the dog is coming out and people are, you know, celebrating Jane Campion again, it feels like no one's talking about this one in any way. Like, I've even seen, you know, people who really stand by Portrait of a Lady, like, coming out and be like, you should watch Portrait of a Lady, but, like, I feel like, we're the only one of people.

Yeah, everyone should watch Portrait of a Lady. It's weird that that's an underrated one from her. Well, it seems like Jane Campion's got nothing but underrated movies in between the piano and the power of the dog, right? Like, people, I guess, top of the lake. Yeah, I would say so. Top of the Lake, people are really into, but, like, that's a different beast. That's a miniseries and whatever. But you look at Portrait of a Lady, Holy Smoke, in the Cut, and Bright Star. All four of those movies are in one way or overlooked or undervalued or misunderstood in some way.

Yeah. Which is why, if Power of the Dog really is. is this universally beloved and embraced movie. We need to run with it as far as we fucking can. This is my feeling as well, yes. Yeah, yeah. And have you all both seen Power the Dog? Yes, I won't see it until the day this episode airs.

Oh, Chris, I'm so excited for you. I know, I know. I'm very excited for you. Oh, yeah, I can't wait for you to watch it. I mean, I read the book, I'm a humble brag, but I was obsessed with the book. Wow. The book, I flew through it in, like, no time.

It's incredible. I'm so excited to see what she does to, you know, make it her own. And, like, I know that she apparently does divert from the text in a few ways. I'm excited to see what that holds, but, like, yeah. Should we get into the plot description so before we really get into, like, the meat of this movie? Yeah, I think we should. Yeah. All righty guys, just to set us up, we are once again talking about Holy Smoke, directed by the genius Jane Campion, written by Jane Campion with her sister Anna Campion, starring Kate Winslet, Harvey Keitel, Pam Greer, I definitely want to talk about it, Julie Hamilton, Tim Robertson, Sophie Lee, Danielle Wiley, and Paul Goddard. The movie premiered in competition at the Venice Film Festival and then opened limited. Uh, December 3rd, 1999, Jordane, as our guest, you get the pleasure of doing a 60-second plot

description of this very plotty movie. Um, are you ready? Sure, I'm going to go bare bones with it. You kind of have to, and then, like, you know, we can get into the, into the weeds of this movie, which feels like it is about 75% weeds. Um, uh, but anyway, Jordane Searle's, your 60-second plot description of Holy Smoke. starts now. So Holy Smoke is the story of Ruth.

She gets caught up in a cult in India and her family is trying to get her back. So then they bring in Harvey Keitel plays a character named PJ and PJ is a known deprogrammer and they have

to spend this time together in this isolated like cottage or something in the desert and they're they play around with like sexuality and gender roles and it gets messy

and Pam Greer shows up. All right. I guess if that is it, you got it in record time. That truly, like the final ending of this movie, I could understand

how someone goes off, thinks it goes off the rails, but I mean, it almost feels necessary because it ends up like in a kind of chase sequence

there's a Christmas song so I guess we discovered that this is also a Christmas movie they like get into a physical altercation and then they're like spooning in the back of a truck and then it ends with this like emails

back and forth I want to talk about the emails in this movie. The emails I mean there are so many questions like it's weird that I'm being nitpicky but one of my main questions about the emails is this idea that like where did the kids come from because like in the end like him and PJ and Pam Greer's character have kids and I'm just like wait did they adopt kids like what is happening is Pam Greer supposed to be playing younger I mean she's a gorgeous she could you could tell me that she was aged right like I would

believe you. But, like, he was just like, oh, yeah, we have twins now. And it's just like, aren't you both middle-aged? Where did the twins come from? Right. What's happening? And you can't even get away with just like, well, like, the whole point of the movie is that he is older. He's an older man. You know what I mean? So it's just like it's, it's a weird thing to, to introduce that into the end. It's, it's such a strange sort of whiplash sensation at the end of the movie where all of a sudden this epilogue seems to suggest that she fell in love with him. He obviously, like, felt, like, that their feelings were, like, more than just this weird psychosexual obsession that happened in a desert, that, like, there are these, like, lingering

feelings that, like, even with, like, time and distance, both of them still seem cool with the fact that they have these feelings for each other and nobody's really going to, like, you know, interrogate that too heavily. Nobody else is going to understand their fucked up weekend together. And she's like, I have a boyfriend, but I would still do it. And he's like, I am married with kids, and I'd still do it.

So like... Don't tell my wife. I feel like, you know, if they would like meet, then it would be playing that Gwen Stefani song, cool. Oh, the worst sequel to somewhere ever is to meeting up again. That's their before sunset.

that actually is... El Fanning would definitely play this role today. Oh, God. Oh, my God. El Fanning, in the desert, peeing. She would do it. She'd be up for it. Absolutely.

Listen, Thomas and McKenzie apparently has, like, one scene as the maid in power of the dog. So, like, people will do anything for Jane Campion, as they should. Yeah. Also, the, not just in the emails,

but, like, the subtitles, the fonts throughout the movie, are so late 90s. It is literally the Matrix font. It is the one thing that feels like is dating this movie. Yeah. Well, but I also feel like, and this is where I want to get your guys input most of all,

is the tone of this, I had forgotten that this movie is like explicitly like quasi-comedic. That it is like the most, I have not seen Campion's first two movies. I've not seen sweetie or an angel at my table. so I can't really speak to her entire filmography. But of the... At the mutual at my table is definitely not a comedy.

Sweetie has like this weird kind of tonal balance that Holy Smoke does. Of her filmography, I would say Holy Smoke is kind of like a hybrid between sweetie and in the cut. That seems... Yeah, yeah. So how successfully do you think she pulls off the comedic angle of this movie? because in many, in a lot of ways, I feel like it undercuts what some of the other stuff in the movie is doing. But the other side of me is like, yeah, but if the movie was just like all, like, told the story in a purely dramatic way, I'd kind of find it unbearable too. So like, I'm not sure what I wanted out of it.

But like all the stuff with her family, all the like interjections with Ruth's family, I did not. care for at all. So I don't know what you guys were at. Yeah. Yeah. They were very, the family was very wacky. And I could honestly see it like a version of this where we meet them. They're the catalyst. And then they're just, that's sort of what I expected. I did not remember them interjecting that much into the rest of the movie. Yeah. I mean, there's a satirical element to this family because like the comedic element, I think, is pretty unexpected in this movie, especially. if you're going into it knowing the log line, knowing that it's a very sexual movie. And she really does kind of drop you in this kind of farcical tone.

And like there is an, I think, the kind of farce of this family, which is like supposed to be rather off-putting. But they're also, you know, before we really even get to know Kate Winslet's character, you have this Australian family, you know, kind of going off the rails and freaking out because she is in a cult in India and like the suggested like the tone of racism and assumed barbarism because it's in India it's very important that this family be the real like toxic thing I think by comparison because it's like well you guys are the problem, too. Like, it's not just that she's in a cult and, like, you don't trust it because

she's not in a white environment. But, like, I don't know. That's where I get the intention in this kind of Looney Tunes family, you know? Yeah. I mean, I definitely see that that's what the purpose is. And it's, it is helpful in the sense

that we, this is a movie about a bunch of white people in India. And, you know, there's like, There's, like, music playing that's like, you know, you know, they have the, they've set this whole tone, they've set this whole mood. And it's very, I guess it's supposed to soften the whole, like, colonial vibes, but it's still, like, very colonialist vibes, which makes it even stranger. Because, like, it's very clear that we're supposed to think that Kate Winslet is, like, very naive. But then she'll say things where it's just.

Just like, I mean, she has a point. I agree with that, actually. And I think that's maybe one of the more interesting things about the movie is that her character, I think, is portrayed very realistically in that way, where she's like, she has, she, you come out of that movie being like, well, yeah, like, she has good reason to want to push against her boundaries and rebel against her family. and, you know, try, you know, something new and seek truth in a way that her family and her environment seems very hypocritical to her. And yet she has that very sort of like 19 years old, you know, I found the answers and now I'm, you know, I'm going to be really sort of self-righteous about it. And the movie, I think, is very plain about how she exoticizes the Indian environment in an opposite way, but no less, you know, no less of an exoticization. God, I'm bad with words today. Yeah.

Then what her family's doing, her family's just doing it from the, like, from a negative angle. But she's sort of, you know, she's drawn to, she just, I think she says at one point. She's fetishizing it a little bit more. She's fetishizing it. she says at the beginning she's just like oh i just want to like do something more real than what you guys are doing on our little trip or whatever and the idea that it's more real the idea that like it's to her pure is very tangled up in her own perception of it's not white so it's better you know like she she's objectifying it as you're saying the same way yeah i think

you know it's also interesting to talk about like the kind of cultural tour in the text of this movie because I think it's something that a lot of people talk about the piano in terms of its characters, specifically Harvey Kite's Hell's characters, and like the movie's lens on that. I just think Jane Campion is one of the like most skilled directors in presenting these scenarios where multiple things can be true at one time, especially like multiple extramed. dream things can be true right she can like kind of push she can present something uh with like the humanity the artistry of it that like you know things that are so far out there kind of in the convention of what we see in movies uh you know can be true at the same time yeah yeah yeah

definitely and it's true yeah i was when i was re-watching the piano a couple of days ago. I always said, it's like, yeah, I remembered that he was spending a lot of time with the Maori, I believe. Maori? Maori. Mayori. Yeah, spending a lot of time with them and I was like, oh, yeah. Like, when I was younger, I didn't really clock this as much, but, but yeah, yeah, he is.

And, like, I wonder also if that's like part of what is attractive about his. into her where as opposed to like Sam Neal who is like very very rigid and very like clearly like white you know like love like in terms of like buying into whiteness and all that it entails specifically in that time and setting too yeah yeah well and one of the things that holy smoke

does that I think we could debate as to how effective it is is it kind of pivots from the fetishization of Indian culture and Indian religion and sort of, you know, metaphysical awakening and whatever to, it kind of like transfers that to this battle of the sexes, a battle of wills between Winslet's character and Kytel's character, where all of a sudden their arguments go from being sort of like very, very, I would say surface level about things like religion and her you know her cultish beliefs and that's I think also we'll talk about that in a second but like one of the weaknesses I think in the film is that like it doesn't seem like it's all that difficult to break her of these cult beliefs it's sort of just like she watches one film strip about Marshall Applewhite or whatever and and she's and she's cured um but it like we're not there Then it pivots to this, you know, Harvey Kytel is this like pigish American, you know,

chauvinist, whatever. And she is this, you know, voluptuous young tempteress. And she tries to essentially, like, emotionally top him. And it works spectacularly well. And so then it becomes just like, oh, now who is the one who's under whose thrall and who's the one being broken and yada yadda and it's just like on a like thematic level I'm cool with it on a like actual

character level of like following things through I don't know if I buy it the whole way through I have less of an issue with that the kind of suddenness that they are able to break each other because I do ultimately see the movie as farce right like I don't know how much we're supposed to meant to be able to think about it plus it's also characters that like even though he is a finger quotes like expert in deprogramming he's a terrible

deprogrammer like from the race i think we're also presented characters who are you know as much as they don't think they are they are basically only knee deep in these philosophies that they are you know in terms of how invested they are it's more about you know themselves yeah yeah you Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the way that it becomes a battle, because I totally forgot, I remember the gender stuff. The cult stuff was a little fuzzy in my brain, and it's because there's really just not a lot of it. I didn't even notice it before. And I almost feel like the gender stuff is also a little bit easier to do because it's very, I almost feel like,

there wasn't that it was always meant to be a setup for that. Like, I don't know how much Jane was really interested specifically in the cult itself. And especially just because, like, their, a lot of their conflicts, at some point, well, maybe not a lot, but at some point Harvey Cartel brings up how, you know, how, you know how they treat their women in India? Yeah. And, like, how could you feel empowered here? And then it just becomes this whole thing where it's like, well, what, like, on a base level, what does he even know? And what does she even know? And what is this really about?

It seems to be more about, like, traditionalism versus some kind of, like, exotic, a more exotic lifestyle. I don't know. Well, and not to be all... No, I think that's a really smart observation because it's also her family that's putting her in this situation. Her family, which, like, all exists within these nuclear units of all of these basically macho men doing whatever they want and, you know, women either being the, you know, put upon a mothering figure or the sexualized girlfriend figure, which, what was the name of, that sister character who basically the whole time I was watching it this time

the actress looked like Sherry Moon Zombie to me Oh what was her name? Yvonne? Yvonne. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, she was something else.

She was great. Sherry Moon Zombie is not a bad comparison. But like if Sherry Moon Zombie had been in Muriel's wedding, right? Exactly. Is she one of the women in Muriel's wedding? Am I just making that up or what? Yes.

No, she is. I just, yeah, I just looked at it up. Yes, she is in Muriel's wedding. So, yeah, so that's spectacular. Okay, that tracks. I think she's the girl that gets into the fight as they're singing Waterloo. Remember the scene? Obviously, the famous Waterloo scene.

And then the girls start brawling. I think she's one of the girls who starts brawling. Anyway, yeah, she was a trip. I have not seen that movie yet, but I see that it is on HBO match. Oh, highly right. It is a gift you should absolutely give yourself. Highly recommended. Yeah.

But so, and not to be all like cinemasons about it or whatever, but like it did strike me watching the movie that like he's supposed to be this like deprogramming expert. Like literally they make a point of being like, we're paying for the best. Could we pay for the second best? How much would that be? And she's like, no, we're paying for the best. And like, okay. and he comes from America and like and yet seems so easily like it does feel like this is his first rodeo you're watching it and you're just like he doesn't seem to have these too terribly sophisticated you know tactics or like a grasp on eastern religions or any kind of you know messianic belief and also like is this the first time you've been in countered with, like, a beautiful woman.

Like, it just, it's not to, like, take anything away from, like, Kate Winslet as, like, an otherworldly beauty or whatever. But... This is where I think the farce comes in, though, because, like, I think the suggestion, the idea is not that he's never been presented with a beautiful woman, but he's never been presented with a woman who pushes back in any real way. And that's, I think, where the grander idea of... what Shane Campion is saying about the gender roles and like their intrinsicness to like the family home, uh, comes in that like, it's not that, you know, there's, what is special about Ruth that like, you know, knocks him down so quickly is that she pushes back at all, or like pushes back on the things that he hasn't ever thought about or had pushed back on.

Except when we get the brief glimpses of Pam Greer, it's not like Pam Greer. comes across as a pushover. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's, that to me, I don't, I sometimes have trouble sort of reconciling that because it's like, she is the woman in his life. And she doesn't seem to be any kind of shrinking violent, even though we don't get nearly enough of her in this movie. I guess, I, like, an hour and 20 minutes until she shows up.

Yeah. Yeah. I think if the farce had worked better for me, I would probably be more on board with this movie than I am. but there's something that doesn't fully connect with me. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. It's very hard to tell.

The whole thing with PJ and Roof is really interesting. I, because, yeah, he just kind of seems like a novice. Like, it's weird that he's supposed to be. I think he just, like, wanted to show up and just be like, I'm a man. You should stop. doing what you're doing and do what I asked you to do. Okay, are we done now?

Yeah. I feel like he's, I feel like he's really, he has to struggle with the fact that he actually has to work. And it seems like he hasn't before. Right. It's just like, how have you managed to get away with this without actually doing anything? And the way that they explain the deprogramming process, that's sort of, you know, pencil pusher-looking guy who, like, explains. what they're going to do. And essentially it's just like, well, we'll kidnap her. And then we will lie to her for our purposes. And our lies will break the programming of, you know, the Baba's

lies. And then you can like start from square one, essentially. And it's just like, so even from the beginning, and they talk about how we're going to steal her, we're going to capture her. And it's It's just like it's not a process that seems on the up and up. They talk about how the family is just like, well, if they find her in the desert, they're probably going to arrest all of us for kidnapping. So that's not good. And so it does seem like the process is intended to be, we're going to take you from this cult leader and we're going to present you with a different kind of cult leader.

But it's going to be, and the way it presents in the movie is Harvey Keitel is this like, cult of Western masculinity, right? And you are going to fall under the thrall of that cult. And that's what's going to break you of this other thing. And you'll be like back to normal because the normal thing is to be under the thrall

of this like Western masculinity supremacy. And I think I get that like on paper. And I wish I get it a little bit more in, you know, in the process of the movie. if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, I think the way that Ruth clocks him is that she realizes that he's pathetic,

and then she just runs with that as far as she can. But yeah, I think that if the movie kind of like focused on that, like she realizes it, and you can realize it by the way that she interacts with him. But I don't know. Well, no, the movie finds out that he's pathetic later. like pretty later on. But I kind of wish it was more about that. Like, wow, this whole, like, American bravado thing is really just kind of stupid, isn't it?

And you see it work on someone like Yvonne, right? Who, like, spends literally, like, a 10-minute conversation with him and is sucking his dick by the end of that conversation, right? So, like, she has, like, fully, like, she falls under his spell, whatever weird, you know, a mock spell that he has. Like, so, like, I guess she's supposed to be the, the proof that, like, this would work on other people. But also, Yvonne seems vapid and silly. You know what I mean?

So it's just like, well, like, is Ruth really the only woman of substance this guy's ever really come across in his real life? And, like, I don't know. I don't know, man. Yeah, yeah, that's weird because Pam Greer. She's right there. Pam Greer. it's a yeah the choice to cast pam greer for a role like this is is i think trips up the movie in a big way

because nobody there's no universe where someone would think oh yeah pam greer that's a push over right right right like honestly it being a black woman at all is really a mess like because it's like if there's going to be a woman who is going to tell you where to go it's a black woman so this particular black woman especially who is like so known for like her persona is like telling you where to go right like that's the whole that's her deal and yeah yeah the idea that like a little kate winslet is better at it than it's very funny to me because she's just like uh i don't know how old was kate winslet during this role because i know she's playing a 19 year old she's not would have been young 20s because she was what 19 when she shot um well what was that master card

commercial she did where she talked about all of the ages she was at when she played all those roles i loved that commercial so much at 17 i went to prison for murder by 19 i was penniless and heartbroken i almost drowned at 20 then i have my memory erased at 28 and by 29 i was in neverland My real life doesn't need any extra drama. That's why my card is American Express. Oh, yeah. She would have been 23, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. When she made this movie. Yeah. All that is true about the Pam Greer character, that being said, I think in the two scenes she's in this movie, she's fucking sensational. Oh, she is. I mean, of course she is. Yeah. Yeah.

And, like, this is shortly after she doesn't get nominated. for Jackie Brown. Joe and I have both mentioned she would be our best actress winner that year. Yeah, this should have been a reunion of two of the women that Helen Hunt beat for that Oscar if Pam had been nominated, but she should have been. Yeah.

Okay, but I think, I think, I understand a lot of what you guys are saying in this. I guess I'm probably the person who likes this movie the most. I think the integral ingredient to the things that aren't quite clicking, and I don't want to sound like I'm selling you guys on this movie. But like, it is sex, especially, especially for Harvey Cartel's character

that like she unlocks him basically so quickly is a sexual ingredient too. Because like maybe I don't understand, maybe I don't buy that he's never been with a woman who's challenged him or he's never been around, you know, all of the things that we've said. But I do buy that he's never been topped by a woman. Oh yeah, 100% I buy that. And he definitely, I definitely think one of the, like, one of the key ingredients to why

Ruth is able to dismantle him so easily is that she sexually emasculates him. Yes. And he discovers that he likes it and that he's willing to go with it. This is true. This is true. He does. And that's, I mean,

that's really the most interesting thing about this movie. And that's also the part of the movie. That's also like the element of the movie that made the guy that I was watching with kind of uncomfortable. And I think probably made a lot of like audiences and critics in 1999 uncomfortable too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like what the fuck would Rex Reed say about this? Oh my God. The unvaccinated Rex Reed. But even I was watching the the Ebert at the movies clip. This was when he was hosting the show still with guest hosts. And It was him and Janet Maslin, and neither one of them liked the movie all that much.

But he said, Holy Smoke is not a successful film, but neither is it a boring one. And I was like, yeah, I'm on board with that. And I think the latter half of that carries a lot of weight with me because, like, it is a really interesting movie and in what it's trying to do. And it gave me a lot to think about. And I do think Winslet is pretty spectacular in it, especially given how young she is. and that she's sort of, you know, coming off of Titanic. So it's just like literally like the height of her early career stardom. Like you talk about, it's fascinating to think about how she and DeCaprio's careers sort of emerged from Titanic and what they did.

And right around this time, that actually that same Ebert at the movies episode was they reviewed the beach. So like this is both of them taking these really. interesting, like, big swing kind of movies that did not succeed, that, like, people did not want that from them. And I like that, you know, they were both happening at the exact same time. Well, it's frustrating in hindsight, too, because people thought that some of these choices were reactionary, like, against their Titanic stardom. And it's like, they're incredibly young actors who are just basically beginning their real career. And, like, you're talking about if we're just going to stick with these two examples, those are two directors who are incredibly interesting.

Why would they ever turn them down? Why would you turn down Jane Campion and Danny Boyle at that point in your career? Well, you can do anything. Why would they go and make, you know, the boring Titanic adjacent prestige picture? Granted, they basically turn right around and do that because Winslet goes and does Iris. Sure. But I think both of their careers, especially in those post-Titanic pre-I mean, I guess we could say like pre-revolutionary road, sort of when they would reunite again. But that kind of decade of their career was marked by them doing really kind of interesting and challenging projects.

And I think the beach is the pinnacle of that with DeCaprio. I think Winslet would do it sort of again and again with Holy Smoke, with Eternal Sunshine, with, you know, a lot of, not all of them successful. There were some Life of David Gales in there, but. Romance and cigarettes, baby. But even that is just like, I could see the appeal of doing something like, oh, a musical with, you know, directed by John Totoro. Like, okay. I want to watch that. How is that?

I've never seen it. Weirdly, I've never seen it either. We should all watch it, you guys. I think it's, I think it's streaming somewhere, maybe HBO Max or something, but that's a good idea. I should get high and watch that. That's a good idea. Yeah, but yeah, they were both really experimental. Like, there was this one Leonardo DiCaprio movie I remember called, I think it was called like Totally Eclipse that, that I only caught once or twice, and he was like, a gay poet or something like that was like.

Oh, was that when he played, didn't he play Arthur Rimbo in a movie? movie, that could have been the one. I think that's maybe the one you're talking about, and I'm going to look this up. Because that one's really hard to find. It used to come on cable, but then when I wanted to watch it again as an adult, I've had trouble tracking it down.

Yeah, 1995. Well, he probably buried it, but the sounds of it. That was the one he made between the Quick and the Dead and Romeo and Juliet, William Shakespeare's Romeo plus Juliet. He plays Arthur Rimba, the poet, poet, the queer poet from, I don't know, eras, whatever, he's French.

Yeah, it's like him and David Thuleus. Right, right. I've never seen this movie either. All right, I'm going to watch that in romance and cigarettes back to back is what I'm going to do. But, like, post-Titanic for DiCaprio, like, not counting the Man in the Iron Mask because that was, you know, in theaters when Titanic was in theaters. the beach Don's Plum

to talk about movies that were hidden away from view Oh yeah He and Toby McGuire made sure that that movie is not anywhere On the face of the planet In America

But that was filmed Before Titanic even And I'm not sure When he filmed the Woody Allen movie's celebrity either So the beach is really like The only thing he does For a few years there

And then it's Catch Me If You Can in Gangs of New York in 2002 and already he's trying to feel out where do I fit as like leading man in American film right is it my Spielberg deal is it Scorsese and he does the Scorsese thing for a while and he's trying to kind of you know feel it out in that way and I think Winslet probably in part because there aren't as many like leading parts for her in big movies as there would be for, you know, DiCaprio for a male actor, it's, you know, holy smoke and it's eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. And it's, now I'm trying to bring up what

were her post-Titanic. Little children. Right, little children or hideous kinky, I guess, although that's like right after Titanic. Yeah, I'd believe that she probably filmed that before Titanic was even released. And I have no idea what that is. Like, when I saw that, what is that? That's another movie that I think takes place. I know it takes place in another country and there might be some cultural tourism to it, but I've never seen it. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Because it always hasn't been all that available. Yeah. Oh, it's on 2B. Of course. Everything always ends up on 2B. The finest streaming service to be. Yeah. Even something like quills that she made with uh, with Jeffrey Rush. Like I could see the appeal of that being like, you know, it's a movie. It's a biopic about the Marquis de Sade.

Like it's, you know, it's there's some danger there. There's some, you know, pushing of the envelope there. And it's a really interesting stretch of her career. The post-Titanic pre-Oskar, you know, decade for Winslet is is pretty thrilling. And obviously she racks up a whole bunch of other Oscar nominations in that stretch.

But I think she's pretty fantastic in Holy Smoke. I kind of wish she had gotten more awards attention for the performance. She was sort of on the outskirts of that best actress conversation, but never like too seriously

considered for it, I would say. Yeah, she was one of the runner-ups with National Society film critics and the New York film critics, which like, I guess, kind of makes sense. because if there's going to be anybody sticking up for this movie in some way, Winslet's kind of, you know, your obvious choice to kind of corral some consensus.

No, I mean, just to like talk a little bit about how, like, she was in this era, an incredibly exciting actress, I think is partly why when she ultimately wins for the reader, why that was such a disappointment that, you know, that's the thing that she would win for, you know, Oh my God, the reader So I have never seen the reader But the reason why I've never seen it Aside from the fact that I have no interest in it Is that I was at

I was at a party I was at the party that I went to Where I got drunk for the very first time And I was like And so it was just like Somebody made me a gin and tonic And I was like, this seems easy And so then for the rest of the night

I made my own Junant Tonics Oh, that's how they get you Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then, like, I was like, okay, enough gin. And then I switched to red wine, which is insane. I was in, I was 19. So I was the same age as Kate Winslet's character.

You fell under the cultish spell of spirits and wine. Yeah, there you go. So, uh, Neil Diamond was playing at this party. Of course. Of course. And so I, like, started to get. like kind of shaky and then everybody's like okay we're gonna watch a movie and it's three in the morning and this is a party full of like honors it was like my honors party in college so it was just

like all honors students terrible um and so someone decides to turn on the reader and i think it's like i think it's a joke at first like they're just like oh we're gonna turn on we're just gonna turn on the most unlikely movie you would turn on at a party the reader but then they actually decide to watch it. And I'm sick. And so then I go into the bathroom thinking, okay, I'm just going to get myself together in here. I end up just like throwing up all over the bathroom, just like red and it's all red. Red wine vehicle gets you, man. Oh, boy. And no one notices for a while because everybody's watching the reader and then somebody finds me in there. And they're really sweet. I mean, That's the good thing about partying with honors kids. It's like they like, you know, they like

nicely like took off my watch because I was still wearing a watch at the time. They like would, they like had all like my jewelry and stuff just like set out in my glasses and they know what to do. They tucked me in. Yeah. It was very nice. But yeah, that happened during the reader. So I, every little time I consider watching the reader, I just think about throwing up. And so I never first of all, you don't need to see the reader because you have just told the only interesting story. anyone's ever told that's adjacent to the reader um yeah so this story is amazing it's like midsamar about the reader like that i want to see that film before i want to see uh the reader ever again yeah oh you've seen it oh oh yeah it's an offensive movie um i hate it

I will ride with Stephen Daldry for most things, but I'll take a walk around the block while he's riding with the reader. Yeah, it was, for as much as I, you know, I kind of resent the way that people kind of turned on her during that Oscar campaign because she was too solicitous of, you know, awards and she was, you know, she wasn't, you know, blasé enough about it or whatever for people's taste. I always found it refreshing, because honestly, these people would not go through, you know, six months of fucking interviews if they didn't want an Oscar. Everybody in that room wants the Oscar. At least she fucking said, yeah, I want it. Like, it didn't help that, like, whatever, that Hollywood reporter or variety interview, whichever one it was, where they put it on the cover, hell, yes, I won an Oscar, or whatever it was. Like, that doesn't help.

And, like, that's not her fault. well there was like a perfect storm of like context around her that like made that all seem pretty unpalatable part of it was this idea that like she made these thrilling really interesting choices for 10 years and then she's going to get an award for the you know dumbest one essentially it was the joke that she did on extras where it's like you make a movie about the holocaust and they gave you an Oscar I was just about to bring that up yeah the fact that she like called her shot but in like a really farcical way on extras where she like made a joke about doing a movie about the holocaust and getting an Oscar and that's exactly then what ended up happening now I'm doing it because I've noticed that if you do film about the Holocaust guaranteed an Oscar I've been nominated four times never won and the whole world is going why hasn't winslet won one death yeah that's it that's why I'm doing it shindler's bloody list the pianist Oscars coming out of their ass

You both good luck then Also the wine scene company shenanigans With like lead actress versus supporting actress Like there was a lot of There was a lot of shit But at the root of it It's still Kate Winslet An actress that I like had adored

All you know throughout her career So I wasn't going to be You know Oscars Are a fateful accident Of space time and circumstance and I'm not going to look that gift horse in the mouth while, you know, I don't know, poor Deborah Carr's fans are just like, just take it, take your Oscar where you can get it. I did think it was interesting that she ends up on sort of in these runner-up positions

for various critics awards. You mentioned National Society and New York Film Critics. National Society went for a really interesting pick. Sometimes National Society because they come, like, like very last of all the critics awards. And they're just like, all right, you fuckers. Like, we're going to throw something interesting in here. And Reese Witherspoon for election wins their best actress, which like is rad and should

have happened at more of those critics awards and would have been cool if she could have gotten a best actress nomination for that because like it still stands as one of her best performances. And, you know, the fact that it was like an MTV films, you know, production kind of made it a non-factor for Oscar voters kind of right off the bat, which is too bad. But that was the year of like, it was Swank versus Benning pretty much everywhere. And everybody else was sort of fighting for scraps. And Swank wins New York and is also a runner up at National Society. Yeah, yeah. She was winning the critics awards and then the expectation was that Benning was going to be the Hollywood star who would

ultimately take the Oscar because that's sort of usually how these things work. And I would love to see how close it came because I imagine it would have been quite a close tally between the two of them. But Swank obviously ends up winning the Oscar. In a way that like, and I love her performance in Boys Don't Cry. I think she's phenomenal. But knowing that she would end up winning for a million dollar baby over a less interesting Annette Benning performance for as much as like we look back on American Beauty with a little bit of a grimace. I think that Annette Benning's performance in that movie is the thing that I think probably holds up the best. And I would have loved for her. Like she's, again, you talk about, you know, Oscars being a thing of, you know,

time and circumstance. And that circumstance has never come around for Net Benning. And it might not ever. And for as much as people sort of like PooPoo American Beauty now, I would love it if she had an Oscar on her mantle for that movie. She's the thing to still celebrate about that movie because I

think like aside from having this you know, and some people really hate that performance because they think it's this you know, shrewish you know, offensive character. But like I actually think her performance is the thing that's

better than anything else happening in that movie. She's capturing the attempted tone of what that movie is better than anything else. I haven't seen that movie in quite a while. I'm almost afraid to because I was really, really in that movie's corner. I was a college sophomore when I saw that, like clearly like the stereotypical college sophomore. right, seeing American Beauty, and I was that, like, annoying asshole being, like, you don't get it. Like, this is a movie, you know what I mean? Like, I fully bought into all of it, right?

Like, this movie is trying something completely different, and it's totally, like, dismantling the notions of X, Y, and Z, and I was, like, really, really kind of an awe of this movie, and all about it. A lot of people were at the time. A lot of people were at the time, right? And so now knowing, and even like, I remember that movie. And as I remember it, I'm just like, oh, oh, I don't know, man. I don't know how I would see a movie like this now.

I mean, if you watch it through the lens of just knowing that Kevin Spacey's character is full as shit. Because, I mean, I think the main issue with American Beauty is just that like Kevin Spacey's, you're supposed to be on his. side because he's rebelling against the whatever, whatever, the suburbs, the whites, the capitalism, whatever. But, like, you could easily, if you watched it through the lens of Annette Benning, just being like one of those women who's like, I did everything right. I'm still unhappy. Well, this is bullshit. And I think, and I think having watched six feet under and watching Ellen Ball's, you know, television output, at least through that show. I'm not sure how much True Blood has a dialogue with American Beauty, but at least with Six Feet Under. Six Feet Under is

also a show about how all of these characters in this family are rebelling against the lives that they've ended up with in their own different ways. And like Ruth is doing it in one way, and David is doing it another way, and Nate is doing it, and Claire, and they're not all on the same page. The point of six feet under, one of the points, is that, like, they're never on the same page about stuff, but they have to sort of hold this center that they are a family. And I think that, to me, helps me think back on American Beauty a little bit, because, like, yes, it's a weaker movie than, it's a weaker production than Six Feet Under is, because six feet under doesn't shackle itself to any one character's POV. And American Beauty does that

with the Spacey character, and if you allowed yourself to be in the head a little bit more of Benning's character or Thorough Birch's character, or God forbid Mina Suvari's character, who was such a, like, object in that movie. Oh, my God, and she's so, and she's so good in it, and it's a shame, because I don't think that people remember her as a good actress at all. Right. She also had a stint on Six Feet Under, actually, for a little bit. She was one of Claire's art school friends.

She did. I loved seeing her. Yeah. But I should wade back into the waters of American Beauty. I should be brave and go see that again and see where I come at it. Because there is an angle to that movie that, like, they're all kind of trying to wrestle with, you know, this American moment, you know, that they're in in different ways. And I think if you look at it through a little bit. of a, you know, generous lens in that way.

Maybe it would hold up a little bit better. Yeah, yeah, I think so. The one thing about, because, like, just kind of looping back to, and, like, this is one of the things I think people forget about American beauty and where it's like, okay, well, this is what makes, like, as much as we want to be at, you know, a yard sticks length away from that movie, the thing that like reflection or revisiting is that like that thing that you were saying that you were defending that movie at the time was absolutely a thing. I mean, in a lot of ways American beauty, it was a culmination of, and we've talked about this before, a decade's worth of movies, you know, looking at the suburbs, looking at the nuclear unit, looking at like the American culture of that.

And it was like the culmination of movies like happiness, the ice storm. Yeah. And like it gets embraced by the academy partly because it positions itself as the subversive choice, whereas like all of the movies that were leading up to it in our kind of cultural fascination with this type of movie were in fact actually way more subversive than that movie is. But part of what allowed it to be the thinking man's subversive choice for an Oscar movie. is that its direct competition was the cider house rules. Yeah. Which is also actively retrograde. It is, you know, this kind of weepy, you know, treakily movie that like really had to get pushed very hard by Miramax.

And Miramax also released Holy Smoke. Yes. To like get the kind of embrace that it did to make it, you. you know, a best picture frontrunner. Because it also, along with Holy Smoke, premiered at that Venice Film Festival. And, like, it was a movie that was not initially embraced. Like, they had to really find the audience for that movie. And it wasn't Miramax's first choice for Oscars that year.

I can't remember what was the movie that bombed for them that year. And now I want to look this up because I remember that being, like, a backup plan. almost for them. And I don't think Holy Smoke was plan A either, but now I want to look and see... I mean, initially Holy Smoke could have had a bigger plan before they knew what the movie was because, like, Miramax also distributed the piano. Like, they clearly would have had a relationship with Campion and did very well by Campion. You know what it was? It was the talented Mr. Ripley. But that was a co-production with Paramount. But I still think that was their... I think once... I mean, they had like Happy Texas or whatever that, like,

Was it the Sundance Bomb or whatever? But, like, that was their big movie coming into that award season. It was a co-production with Paramount, but I remember, like, I feel like Miramax was, like, expected to be the awards engine behind that movie. And that, like, beyond Jude Law, I think that movie got pretty well dropped in terms of, you know, we're going to go for Oscars for this. Or I guess they did push it. I guess voters just, like, didn't go for it for whatever, you know, multiple backlashy kind of reasons. We've talked about that before, about how the Talented Mr. Ripley in 1999 was the perfect storm of backlash against Gwyneth Paltrow, Matt Damon, Anthony Mangela all at once. And it was kind of too bad.

Really? I need to listen to that episode. Yeah, that's because the Talton Mr. Ripley is, is so good. Oh, it's a fucking masterpiece. Like, yeah. Yeah, because you totally have the people who were against Gwyneth very suddenly when she won. You have the people that were sick of young Matt Damon's shit already. And Anthony Minghella, you have the anti-English patient people who are like,

the English patient sucks, the English patient is boring. Yes. And the English patient sweeps. So, like, they didn't want to do that for Minghella again. Exactly, exactly right. And so the Cider House rules then emerges as it was a pretty late-breaking, I thought, awards push for that movie, that I remember it sort of emerging very late in the game. And I mean, oddly and ironically, for as much as I was into American Beauty, I also really loved the Cider House rules. So, like, I was an odd and peculiar creature in 1999 at odds with myself or something.

But, yeah, I think the other thing about American... The Cider House... Go ahead. Oh, the Cider House Rules. That's the... That's one of those books that was, like, adapted from that guy who made, like, the world according to Garb. John Irving. Yeah, John Irving.

Yes. Yeah, and he did, um, uh, Hotel New Hampshire, which I watched a lot when I was younger. That one I've never seen the movie of that. What is that? What is that about? I've never seen that or read that book. That's the incest one, right? It's, yes, that's the incest one.

They're all the incest one. And it's got, like, Roblo and, um, Jody Foster have, like, an incestuous thing in that movie. Yeah, weird. Incest is a theme that, like, recurs through a lot of his stuff, actually, weirdly enough. John Irving, it's always, like, genital dismemberment. It is, you know, car crashes. Right, it is, you know.

Body trauma, people getting, yeah, John Irving. What a strange man. Yeah. And he actually won the author. that year for adapting his own book I kind of want to bring it back to since we're on the Oscar conversation I kind of want to bring it back to Jane Campion because

signs point to her having a very good year with the power of the dog and like coming back into the Oscar fold in a real big way for the first time since the piano. Yeah. Portrait of a lady gets a sporting actress nomination for Barbara Hershey

Bright Star gets a costume design nomination which is a shame because that means we can't talk about it on this podcast and Joe Reed is probably the biggest bright star Stan that I know so much it's such a it's I might be the most beautiful movie that I've ever seen I think I said that on Twitter this week to somebody and I think like it's it's it's probably true it's so good is it your favorite champion yeah it is my favorite champion it is it's so it yeah it's because it's not too terribly ambitious on a plot level right It's just like, oh, it's, you know, biopic of this poet who died young.

And yet from that sort of sketch of an outline builds this really, like, big, beautiful love story that is so delicately told. And yet, like, it's so impactful for being so delicate and beautiful and well filmed and well acted. And that was the movie where I really, like, fell head over heels for Ben Washaw, too, where I was just, like, like oh boy like jeepers creepers like lying in a field of like purple violets or whatever I was just like oh my goodness gracious so yeah we need abby cornish to be that good again too yes yeah i i am much more basic but i would say that like sometimes the obvious answer is the right one my favorite jane campion would have to be the piano it's a good movie jordan which is your favorite is it in the cut you know what's

interesting is that for many, many years it was the piano and then like in the cut came and really like changed everything for me. I really do think that in the cut changed the way that I think about movies

in general. So yeah, it would have to be in the cut which is just so interesting because I love all of her work. Even like Holy Smoke which like I don't necessarily think is good. I still love that it exists and like the in the image of i mean the image of harvey kytel in that red dress is something

that i've been thinking about for like i've been thinking about that image for like 15 years from like the first time i saw it like i knew i could not remember the rest of the movie but i knew so i mean she she's just really incredible but yeah i think that in the cut is my favorite i mean uh she's just such a fascinating film all of her movies are filled with so much even like the ones before the piano which we don't really talk about that much she has a tv movie called two friends which is interesting and like interesting with how it plays with time in relationship to a friendship uh an angel at my table which is a biopic but like she is doing very interesting things within a biopic that like

that movie has a lot of fans but like people should check that movie out just for that Yeah, I dig that movie. And then Sweetie, which is, like I said, very aligned with what I think this movie is doing. Sweetie is ultimately more of like a family tragedy, I think, even though it is otherwise kind of a comedy. Yeah, yeah. I like Sweetie. Yeah, it's messy. I feel like Holy Smoke is the movie that kind of really.

even though it could have, like, could have been seen as a potential Oscar player. I think it was the movie that probably pushed Campion out of Oscar consideration kind of wholeheartedly because, like, people weren't ready for it. And even with portrait of a lady after the piano, it is this kind of period piece that, you know, maybe if people didn't like it, they still thought that's who Jane Campion is because the piano launched her in this, like, huge global. way that like you know the things that are odd the things that are interesting the things that make the piano a movie we still talk about almost 30 years later you know it's very easy to see how an early 90s voter grabbed less onto those things than just the kind of formalism of it you know

where it's like it feels like it's an incredibly subversive movie for the academy in the early 90s But, like, it's also a movie that looks the way it does and sounds the way it does that, like, you know, a more conservative, stodgy Oscar voter could still go for that movie. And I feel like it took those people a while to realize the filmmaker that Jane Campion actually is and that she's interested in, you know, subverting gender roles on screen. she's interested in sexuality in a way that's not always tidy but always interesting and like has put people

off on things that they're not prepared for so I'm really excited to see by all telling the power of the dog still is those things but like the Oscar scene Oscar the Academy seems ready to embrace her in a get in

a way that like not even having seen the movie I don't like rooting for people to win on things I haven't seen but like I need Jane Campion to win it's kind of surprising and I mean like it's really surprising the embrace of power of the dog because I mean obviously it's great but it's also just like one of the most obviously sexual movies like that I've that I've seen that's like not that it's it's complicated like it reminds me a lot of you know those westerns where there's like all of this like subtext like johnny guitar or like giant where there's obviously like a lot of stuff going on but um you still have all of the trappings of

the western you know stuff around it whereas like the power of the dog feels like what if we took the subtext of the old western and just made it the text and what if we're just watching the text. And so, like, it's fascinating to me because there's, it's so, this is, this isn't a spoiler or anything. There's a scene where someone sticks their finger into a flower, like it's like a vagina. And I'm just sitting there. I had many gay men talk to me just about a particular shot in this scene. And I cannot wait to see this movie. It's so, like, it's just, it's so sexual. So, like it's it's going to be interesting you know how how they end up selling it because for me it's a movie that is like all about sex in a very very explicit way this is why when i read the book i was so excited by it because you can read the book and see jane campion as the person for it

and it's like to some people i've seen people be like oh that's such an odd pairing and i'm like no absolutely not because you could see, like, I don't know, the fucking, who's directed westerns or like things like this, where somebody just does it without any of that kind of sexual understanding and the movie blows and is boring and doesn't get it. Yeah, yeah, like, I was... Again, without spoiling, too, like, it's a text that is very much about power. And I think, especially in a gender dynamic, that's something that Jane Campion is always fascinated with. And that's why I'm really excited to see her work with this text. Well, and you look at Holy Smoke, you know, bringing it to the movie that we're talking about today. And maybe the most interesting, the most sort of passionate idea that she has in this movie is this idea of like breaking down this very western.

masculine avatar in the Keitel character and easily for me the most interesting thing about Power of the Dog is the way that it like makes masculinity this like very like again Western masculinity like literally a

Western masculinity the text and the sort of the terrain of this movie where she you know molds it and twists it and plays with it and it's all the more fascinating for it. Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I can't, like, Chris, the moment that you see it, I need you to text me. I will text you the second I leave the theater. It will just be a, it will be a keyboard slam, I'm sure. I'm so excited. Yeah, yeah.

But I thought about, I was thinking about Holy Smoke. Now I totally remember. I was at the Q&A. at NYFF for Power of the Dog and someone was asking Jane about like how she feels about you know having a man be the protagonist

in her movie and how she never usually does that and even though like yeah that's true but she's always been super interested in men so I didn't really see it that much of a departure but she kind of did it's like I almost wanted to be like do you remember Holy Smoke like does she remember that she made Holy Smoke?

Because in some ways, especially I think in the beginning, like, chapter of this movie, Winslet is kind of sidelined in a way by this family. And like the family, when they are on screen, they are what's dominating the movie. And I think with intention. But like, it is somewhat of a two-hander in a way that maybe like not even Bright Star is. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, Bright Star, for as much as, again, I swoon and sigh over Ben Wishaw, like, Abby Cornish is very much central to that movie. Yeah, and it's also integral, like, to the drama of the story when Ben Whishaw is not there and you want him to be there and they're trying to see each other be, you know, together.

Yes, very much so, yeah. And there's also the whole, oh, God, I used to know this guy's name. there's also the whole Paul Schneider, yeah. Paul Schneider is incredible in that movie. I used to be so mad at him for leaving, for leaving Parks and Rec, but I actually, I think he was right. I think he was right to leave.

I think that it's fine. I was mad at the time because I was like, he's cute. Who am I going to look at now? Did he do Parks and Recreation? much about Harvey Keitel's performance in this movie, other than sexualizing him, which I think Jane Campion would be partly fine with. I think he's great. Like, it's a tough role, a lot of, because, like, it's very hard to figure out, like, who this guy is, and even by the end, I'm not sure

if we know. But he, I just think about, like, how he, how deeply he falls in love with and how desperate he becomes for her. And it's not really something that you see. It's not a character that he plays. He never really pines for people. So I think that it's definitely a really interesting difference. Yeah. And I don't think, this is one of the things that, like,

I just love Jane Campion's mind because I don't think, like, many people would think of Harvey Keitel for this role. And he's exactly right for it. And, like, in the way that, like, Harvey Keitel is sexy, has anyone else cast Harvey Keitel as sexy other than Jane Campion? And it's, like, it's genius. He's an actor who I always forget is an Oscar nominee, because when I was, like, preparing our outline for this, I was like, oh, yeah, Harvey Keitel, no Oscar nomination. And it's like, no, he has the nomination for Bugsy, which I think the reason why that's, it's, it's,

forgettable that he's an Oscar nominee is because no one talks about that movie. No one talks about that movie anymore. And it's, see, to me, it's... And it had, like, what, 11 nominations or something? Yeah. Was it the nomination leader that year? It was a big, it was a big deal, wasn't it? I think it was the nomination leader that year. It must have been, because it certainly, Silence of the Lamb certainly wasn't, and and it has, like, four acting nominations? Three. It was, Bady was nominated and Best Actor. Weirdly, Benning was not nominated, which is, like, kind of surprising, because she was a big, she was a big deal in that movie.

It was, no, it's, it's, Ben Kingsley and Harvey Keitel were both nominated and supporting actor for playing Meyer Lansky and Mickey Cohen, respectively. It's surprising to me that that's Kytel's only Oscar nomination, actually, because, like, you think of him as this, like, I mean, the man's 82 years old now, and he's just been in movies forever. Yes, it's insane. Yes, it's crazy. He's so, yeah, he's like such a figure.

Like, even as a person who was born in 92, like, he was such a figure. And also because, like, I grew up with the piano. I grew up thinking that he was hot and I grew up, like, being really, and not that he wouldn't be hot otherwise, but I do think that the piano is responsible for a generation of women who would not think that Harvey Kytel's hot to think that he is hot. Women in gay men, yes, yes, I will, I'll throw my hat in the ring for that as well. Oh, my God. I know. I'm so happy to know this. Yes, it's true. Guess what my first... Harvey Keitel gets the affirmative stamp of a very formative ass.

Yes. Guess what my first Harvey Keitel movie was, though? The movie that it first introduced me to him. Bad Lieutenant? No. Yes. There I was age 11 watching Bad Lieutenant. No, it was Sister Act. Sister Act was absolutely the first thing that I saw Harvey Keitel in. So everything after that... Okay, Sister Act is also a movie that says that Harvey Kytel is hot. Right.

But imagine my whiplash going from, oh, that's the guy from Sister Act to the piano being like, oh, that's the guy from Sister Act. Okay. Harvey Kitell and Sister Act, I would absolutely accept a gift of his wife for code. He's sexy in that movie. Iconic Gangsters Mall, Chris File. We now have it on the record. I would be a great gangsters mall. I would ask no questions. You would enjoy the spoils of his ill-gotten gains, and yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, wow, now that I'm like, he, he's been in, like, so many great movies. It's wild that he only has one nomination. Like, this is out of control. How somebody needs to see, and it's not like he's going to be doing like a, crazy heart or something, so, like, what's going to go on? Where's his beginners? Oh, wow. Give him a beginners. Give Harvey Keitel his beginners. Mike Mills, get on that, something.

What is he even? I'm trying to look through what his other movies that he's got coming down the pike are. Nothing too terribly promising, for Oscar-wise, at least. I don't know. justice for Harvey Kytel and that ass. Yeah. That great ass, man. Like, it was so...

This is a man who does his squat. Interestingly, he's in a movie this year. I don't know when it's supposed to release where he's playing Meyer Lansky, who was the Ben Kingsley role in Bugsy. He was the... Oh, it was supposed to... Maybe it did get released,

and it just didn't get a whole lot of attention. Yeah, apparently it released in the United States in June, so I guess it didn't do too much. Sorry, Lansky. Aw. All right. We are not a Lansky podcast again. We are not.

One awards note that we always have to bring up when we can. Boo, hiss, the yoga awards. The, it's the Spanish Razzis, or is the Italian? Spanish Razzis. Spanish razzies, they always do a worst of Hollywood foreign categories. They gave Jane Campion, in a tie with Vim Vendors for a million-dollar hotel, a worst foreign director award for Holy Smoke. Ooh. I feel like we're usually yelling at them for the things that they give their worst awards to, but this is egregious to me.

Like, I understand if Holy Smoke is too much for people, or they think it's kind of a mess. but like worst is a lot. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like a, it's like a beautiful movie. Like, it's what? It is stunning. Like, the Battle of Menti score is great. It's shot by Dion Bibi.

It's a, yeah. Yeah. They also gave worst foreign film to What Lies Beneath, Robert Symex says What Lies Beneath, which I think is a good movie. They gave worst. That movie brule. Yeah.

They gave worst foreign actress to Angelina Jolie for girl interrupted the bone collector and gone in 60 seconds, which like... Whoa. That's a lot going on there. There's, I mean... Busy in 1999. She's good in at least two of those movies. Yeah, yeah.

I would have to say yes. Come on, guys. Wow. Yeah, yoga awards. All right. Wow, yoga awards. Very cat-y. Yes.

Do we have any last notes on Holy Smoke? or Jane Campion. Jane, I would love to have a drink with you sometime if you listen to his podcast. Perhaps I really just want to spend time with her so badly. Anyway. I just want to like recognize that like Kate Winslet in the mid to late 90s in the southern hemisphere was really cutting it up with religious and sexual overtone stuff. between this and heavenly creatures.

Like, you put her in Australia or New Zealand, and shit's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Should we move on to the IMDB game? Yes.

Yeah. Joe, why don't you tell our lovely listeners what the IMDB game is? Sure. Why don't I do that? Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress and try and guess the top four titles

that IMDB says they're most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice over performance, or non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints.

That is the IMDB game. Jordane is our guest. You get to choose both if you want to give or guess first and who you want to give and guess from. I want to guess first. Okay. Would you like to receive your, IMDB person from me or Joe?

You. Okay. So I am giving to you, which means you will give to Joe and Joe will give to me. You are guessing first. Someone who also won a yoga award I have selected for you in this year, a very notorious bomb, a win that we could not argue with for worst for an actor, for Battlefield Earth, John Travolta. Oh, boy.

So the known for for John Travolta. Okay. Wow, I should be able to do this, but I don't know if I can. What a weird man. Okay. Hairspray? No, no hairspray. See, the thing about hairspray is we've talked about it as one of those movies

where everyone on the poster has it in their known for, and the marquee name on the hairspray poster does not have it in his known for. Wow. That's fascinating. Okay. Saturday Night Fever. Saturday Night Fever, correct, his first Oscar nomination. God, he's been in so many movies and I'm just Like, what is he known for? Big movies, too. Grease? Grease, correct.

Okay, so Greece, Saturday Night Fever. These are at least the only 70s ones. I'll give you that little push along. Okay. Pulp Fiction? Pulp Fiction, correct. So you have one left and you only have one wrong. guess. Okay.

Could I have a clue? Sure. I'll just give you the year. It's 1995, so the year after Pulp Fiction. And we've done an episode on this. Yeah, we have. Okay. The year after Pulp Fiction. It's our only other Harvey Kytel movie, even though he's only in it as a cameo as himself. Oh, he does?

cameo as himself in this movie. Um, is it Get Shorty? It's Get Shorty. Well done. Ah, okay. Good job. We kind of liked Get Shorty, didn't you? Yeah, I remember liking Get Shorty.

Yeah. Oh, that's actually a pretty good known for. Yeah. I was worried that there's going to be like, I don't know, like Michael or Phenomena. Look who's talking. Yeah. I mean, that was a big movie. All righty.

So now you get to get to Joe. Sure, yeah. Since he's been on my mind lately, Tim Roth. Tim Roth. Okay. Is Pulp Fiction one of his as well? Pulp Fiction is one of them. Okay. Yeah, you got it. Okay. All right. His only Oscar nomination is Rob Roy, so I'm going to say Rob Roy. Yes. Okay.

Reservoir dogs? No. Okay. Tim Roth. Well, I just saw him in dark water, but it's probably not going to be dark water, which is too bad. Playing the only good lawyer, dark water. All right. What else, Tim Roth?

Oh, is it like Rosencranton, Gildenstern or dead? No. No. Okay. All right. So you get years now. yeah the years are 2001 and 2015 oh god 2015 what has he been in lately 2001 has got to be no I was going to guess Planet of the Apes but that's 2000 I think

no that's no is it oh did I get it oh okay you got it yeah he chose being in Planet of the Apes over being Professor Snape in the Harry Potter movies get out of here Oh, wow. That is a fateful choice. Oh, my God. 2015 is a movie that I forgot that he was even in, which is great for me, because I would like to forget literally everything about this movie. Yeah, me too. 2015, we want to forget it. Is he in Trumbo?

No, but I would also like to forget everything about that movie. What other 2015 movies do we want to forget? Is he in the Danish girl? No, but it is an Oscar winner. It is an Oscar winner. Yeah, it's an Oscar winner by, you know, a director that he's worked with before. Oh, Hateful Eighth. Yes.

There we go. I totally forgot he was in that, too. Yeah, okay. He's on the poster, too. So it's not like he's some Tarantino-y came. Maybe he dies first. I don't know. I don't remember.

What did I just? Oh, I just saw it the harder they fall. And I'm like, this is what I wanted the hateful eight to be. And I was happy that I saw it. So. I hate Westerns usually. And I at least had a good time at the harder they fall. Me too. I had a really good time. It's a great cast. All right. Joe, who do you have for me? I, for you, Chris. I, oh, okay. So I was going through the casts of other Jane Campion movies. And I stumbled upon the portrait of a lady. And in that cast is somebody... Huge cast. Huge cast.

But I had just seen a movie with this actress a couple or maybe a week ago. I'm doing my spooky season watching. And the one title that I came across on Paramount is a movie called Whoever Slew Auntie Rue, which is a post-whatever happened to Baby Jane movie where it's just like actress, like, middle-aged. to older actress who's like kind of gone crazy and she lives in a mansion and like she kind of kidnaps these two kids because her daughter had died and she's got like her mind's all messed up but uh that was the great shelly winters was in that movie and uh had no regrets watching that go check it out on paramount plus if you can but chris give me the known for for shelly winters

Shelly Quinters. Okay, so she has multiple Oscars, but I don't think the Diary of Aunt Frank is on there, and why can't I remember her other Oscar? I'm going to say the Poseidon Adventure, though. Yes, the Poseidon Adventure is correct. Okay. Don't think Portrait of a Lady is going to be on there, because to be honest, I forgot she was in Portrait of a Lady.

Same. Well, she's in a Kubrick movie. Is Lolita on there? Yes, Lolita. Very good. I feel like Kubrick's probably a director that when we get into some of these actors, they're going to show up. Okay. Is The Diary of Am Frank on there?

No, incorrect. Did she win for that? She did. That's one or two Oscars. Yep. Well, shit. What other Shelley Winter's movies? one of them is a banger

Yes Like one of my favorites Like I just bought it on Criterion Yes Ooh is that Night of the Hunter Night of the Hunter Yes Hell yeah

Fucking amazing That's a great spooky season watch Not because it's like Ghosts and stuff But that movie is Terrifying Robert Mitchon is very scary Yep

Ooh wait No she is in Pete's Dragon I'm gonna guess Pete's Dragon She is, but that's not one of the known for. So your year for your missing one is 1965. I'm also just going to tell you it's the other movie she won an Oscar for. Okay. It's a generic title.

It has Sidney Poitier. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You basically got it. It's a patch of blue. Yes. I need to see that movie. She is blind, I believe, in that movie.

Of course, because, I mean, how else are you going to, you know, be with the black man in 1960? Oh, this sounds offensive. This is an Oscar when I haven't seen, but wow, that's the fucking plot of the movie. Yeah, she's a blind white girl who falls in love with the black man. Oh, boy. Jesus Christ. Not real. This is not a real movie.

Oh, we got to love it. We got to love it. It's basically, like, the same plot as, like, mask. Oh, boy. No. I'm going to watch this for spooky season because this is some scary, dumb shit. Oh. So stupid, it's scary.

Well, well done, Chris. Good job. Thank you. Thank you. Guys, that's our episode. Just as a reminder, all month, we are taking your response. both for our mailbag episode and an upcoming listeners' choice episode. So, guys, reach out to us for the movie you want us to do for your listeners' choice.

Only one ballot for listeners, no movies after the year 2019, because we like to have some distance. And then for the mailbag, also send us your questions you want us to answer on the mailbag episode. Try to steer clear of questions like, when will you do this movie? like, asking us to name, like, the one example that represents blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You can ask questions on the current Oscar season, previous Oscar seasons, we love actor and actress questions, anything you guys want us to talk about. Once again, you can tweet at us those listeners choice ballots and your mailback questions at had underscore Oscar underscore buzz, or you can email us at Had Oscar Buzz at Gmail. But that is our episode. If you guys want more of this Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out our Tumblr.

at this had oscarbuzz.tumbler.com. And also, once again, our Twitter is had underscore Oscar underscore buzz. Jordane, this was so much fun. Cannot wait to have you back again. Thank you for coming back on. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. It's always a pleasure having you.

We love you. But tell our listeners where they can find more of you. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Judy Squirrels. and you can find my writing all over the place. Amazing. Joe, where can they find more of you? Sure, I'm on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D.

I'm on letterboxed as Joe Reed, read spelled the same way. And I am on Twitter and letterbox at Krispy File. That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievious for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher,

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by writing us a nice review. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back for next week for more buzz. To satisfy It's good Oh Oh

Oh Yeah