This Had Oscar Buzz - 175 – Hustlers

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

This is an episode about control. We’ve tallied up the votes for our Listeners’ Choice episode and in a landslide victory, 2019′s Hustlers emerged quite victorious. One of our favorite films of 2019, the film (based on Jessica Pressler’s expose in The Cut) stars Constance Wu and Jennifer Lopez as two exotic dancers who team up to … Continue reading "175 – Hustlers"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. These Wall Street guys, you see what we did to this country? They stole from everybody.

Hardworking people lost everything. And not one of these douchebags went to jail. The game is rigged, and it does not reward people who play by the rules. It's like robbing the bank, except you get the keys. Are you in? These are my coworkers. Jobs, please. What if somebody calls the cops?

And says what? I spent $5,000 at a strip club send help. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that wants Judy Dench to screw Ian McKellen's courage to the sticking place. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I am here, as always, with my Hustler at Scores. Chris File, hello, Chris.

I, too, get more comfortable when wet. Oh, my God. Remind. Specifically salt water. Nope, we're keeping it. Specifically salt water. Salt water specifically, I believe, is the line. Yes, God.

I, watching that again last night, I literally wrote down, I was like, Swamona happens 25 minutes into this movie. Like, I genuinely, like, it's so, it hits the ground so running. By the first 25 minutes, we've gotten, uh, J-Lo getting introduced, doing a, a poll routine to Fiona Apple, then get in my fur, and then, like, in Swamona, all within the first 25 minutes. Like, this movie does not make you wait for it. Breakneck pace. Breakneck pace, exactly. I think by that time, Lizzo's already done a little bit

of a flute thing. Cardi has yanked Constance Wu by the hair. Like, a lot happens in the early goings of this movie. It's giving. It's giving. It's giving and it's giving and it's giving. It continues to give, too. Like, there's so much that's happening that, like, I I suspected the first time that we saw this movie that I'm like, this is a movie that I'm going to revisit and notice new things every single time I watch it. Yes, absolutely. And it totally does that. And like certain emotional beats still hit me hard every single time I watch it.

But like one thing I note, like a line that I caught this time that I'd never notice is that first training session where Cardi B eventually shows up, where Ramona is showing Destiny like tricks on the pole and like different types of movies. and she's trying to get her to do this thing where she's basically perpendicular to the pole. Yes. And she tells her to, like, she's like, you almost put your thumb up your butt.

You know how to do that. You got to thumb your butt up there. Like, yeah, yes. Yeah, you know how to do that. It's so great. Like, there's eight billion things to talk about here and we will try and get to everything. One of them being, though, is

Cardi B should be cast in more things, just because I want to, like, I want to see what's there. I want to see what's there. I mean, I love Cardi, period. But, like, it never is lost on me how, like, you know, I mean, this movie has a lot of cameos or, like, very brief roles. And, like, everybody, like, shows up and gives 1,000 percent to this movie. But, like, even some of those cameos, it's just, like, show up and be fun. Cardi, like, runs away with it in the, like, maybe four minutes of screen time.

I was going to say, she doesn't get asked to do a lot. in essentially three scenes, basically. No, three and a half. Her pulling Constance's hair is, like, that's not much. But, like, in the limited screen time, she has, she manages to be, I love it, by the way, that we're, like, leading our hustler's discussion with Cardi. Like, okay. I mean, hustlers began with Cardi because we're going to talk about the phenomenal trailer,

which had a Cardi song in it. That's true. But she manages to be really. natural and yet sell some punchlines and is not overly effortful. It does not really feel like she's trying to

make a joke or trying to act. It's really impressive in a way that like I'm so intrigued. I don't know how much is there, but I want to find out. I want somebody to help me find out. It was the smartest thing in the world to cast her in this movie because like she has experience

in some of these clubs too. So it's like this movie is really great at establishing like the ecosystem of it and in very short order but like populating it with all this life and like my favorite cardi moment in this movie that is just like to me one of the funniest moments is you have the montage which i believe is set to give me more and it's like that's where you see like Lizzo do two seconds of a routine you see as a few of the other dancers who have just been in like kind of the background getting a moment to show the scene so it's like a montage of what it looks like in a night and then you cut to Cardi who

who's, like, cussing out of bouncing. That's my favorite part, too. She has the one line. It's so funny. Where she's just like... Everybody has a job in here. The bouncers, the house, not everybody, but two. All you do is get your fucking dick sucked by the new bitch.

You're fucking idiots. Get the fucking stings. She's talking about how this guy does nothing but let the new girl suck his dick. And she's just, like, fucking idiots. Like, she just, like, totally, like, transitions with, like, fucking idiots don't know what they're doing. Like, it's so great. She's wonderful. This is, you know, an A-plus cast.

We're absolutely going to get into, we're going to try and give every member of the main cast of this movie they're due because they deserve it. This was a movie that deeply would have deserved a SAG ensemble nomination. And I think when we get into talking about why this movie missed out on Oscar, I think one of the big missed opportunities is that, you know, and we can quibble about the strategy of it. But at some point, the Oscar strategy for this movie was,

all on the J-Lo performance. And they really, there was no sense that this movie was being pushed as a movie. And I do wonder if that might have helped things along if voters weren't being asked to essentially make an exception for J-Lo. Because, like, tacitly, the campaign for this movie without saying it was like,

maybe the movie's not your cup of tea, but you got to admit J-Lo's great. And that's, for people who the movie might not have been their cup of tea, that's not wrong. You know what I mean? Like, that's still the correct way to go. But, like, this is a movie that deserved to get respect on its own merits for its writing, for its

direction, for its ensemble cast, for its craft accomplishments, like, top to bottom, this movie should have at least—I'm not saying this movie deserved, like, 13 Oscar nominations, although catch me on a good day and maybe I would— You know what I mean? Catch me on a good day, and I will also agree with that. But this movie deserved to be considered. deeper, I think, than the

than just the awards narrative of this movie too because I think there was like a critical you know the people who got this movie and got what is special about this movie

and what is smart about this movie in my recollection and in my experience in the moment were basically women and gay men and do we have to do everything for the rest of you

do we really have Exactly. And it's like you see a lot of, I think, you know, mainstream, especially straight male critics who are just like, yeah, entertaining movie, blah, blah, blah, blah, but not willing to really think about the emotional core of the movie, you know, the deeper, like, kind of satirization of the market crash and how, you know, this kind of reflects a certain type of blue collar worker. And, you know, people were unwilling to even. considerate, I think, on a critical level in how it achieves those things. And it's like, you have, you know, homosexuals like you and I loudly beating the drum for this movie and, you know, a few others. We are getting ahead of ourselves as we do. I swear to God, Chris, every time, every week we do this, I'm like, I should do better at just like letting us ease into an episode and maybe just like, you know. If there was ever a movie, we were just going to charge out of the gate, though. We really just like, we really

never seem to be able to stop just like jumping headlong into a discussion, partly because the two of us are pretty scrupulous about not discussing a movie before we get on the podcast. So I think by the time we're on here, we're just like, blah, like I have so much to say. You know, weirdly we

didn't because like, I figured would just be like talking about this movie all week because like the thing is we're doing an episode on a movie that we probably bring up in conversation to each other at least once a So I want to do a little bit of two-tiered table setting, one of which being, I want to talk about the time in which this movie came out. But first of all, I would like you to talk about how this is our listener's choice winner.

Like, thank you fans. Thank you listeners. Thanks, guys. I think as soon as votes started coming in for this, it was like, oh, it's obviously going to be no competition hustlers. just like last year when we did this and made the listeners' choice open season basically for all of our listeners to pick what we're doing. Last year, the same thing happened with widows.

We did end up not even doing a poll on this one because it was such a blowaway type of thing and it was so obvious that people want us to talk about this movie. But talk about a little bit about what were some of the other movies that at least got like multiple votes or a little bit of a concentrated attention. runner-up was Kenneth Lonergan's Marguerette, fret not Marguerette fans, we have plans. We do.

Jordan Peel's Us showed up quite a bit. That'll be a fun one to talk about, I think, in the fuchs. Yes, movies with a lot of big followings. I think the most, like, core, this had Oscar buzz, like, title that, you know, got the best in the rankings was actually Amelia in terms of like quintessential this is what we do here I noticed that yeah so we may have to go back to Hillary Swank in the new year we are we are going back to the house of swank yes we will definitely do that lots to ponder into the new year it's always good to get a little window into the enthusiasms of our listeners this was I mean we would have done the shipping news

eventually but like to that was one of the things that I loved about when we eventually to the shipping news was just like, I knew how many of y'all were out there, like, secretly pining for this, like, notoriously bad movie that yet is so intriguing to all of us. So this is a good, it's market research more than anything, and we like that. And this is certainly an episode that's been long in the making, because we've done this since, we've talked about, this podcast has been going longer than Hustlers has been with us. So it's like we had the whole class of, a 2019 episode that

yeah, basically I think I spent the whole time anytime you mentioned Hustlers, me being like, I don't want to talk about it. Right, we gotta, we gotta wait. I also feel like from the minute that this movie got blanked at the Oscar's Oscar nominations, our listeners were like, so when you eventually get to the Hustlers episode

because, like, yes, it was like you know us well, it was always coming. And now that our self-imposed year, one-year moratorium on not talking, about movies from within the same from the last Oscar year we are now clear of it so that's the other thing I want to talk about though Chris is this movie world premiered at the Toronto Film Festival in 2019 so the fall of 2019 it is my it is my declaration to you

that no period in time feels more remote from from where we are now than late 2019. Like fourth quarter 2019. Right before the pandemic. It feels like... It feels like it was a billion years ago. Everything that happened in that, it's not that I don't remember what happened in there, but every

sort of cultural happening that went down in that little window is refracted in time in a way that like I either feel like it just happened or it happened a billion years ago. And I think with Hustlers, it's like oh, Hustlers is all

always been with us. We've always had this movie. We've been discussing it for decades, and it is a part of our canon. And it just, the fact that that was the last time that you and I saw each other in person, our good friend, Katie Rich, recent guest, recent and future guest, and Money Monstrous herself, Katie Rich, was in town last week to do some work stuff and see some awards movies, and I got to hang out with her. And we had dinner, and it very nice. And we literally at one point was just like, when was the last time we saw each other in person? And we were trying to figure it out because the last time she was in New York before the pandemic, I didn't see her because how could I have known that it would have been the last

time that I could see friends from out of town for such a long time? And we realized it was also the TIF 2019. So, like, truly, for a lot of people, that was probably the last time I saw them in person. It's really my Toronto friends. That is true. And again, it's just like, and that contributes to it too, because you and I communicate every day. We are on this podcast every week. So it's, I don't know, the timing of it is just like, Hustlers seems like it happened forever ago. And yet sometimes it seems like you and I saw each other just yesterday because we are, you know, so constantly in communication. So it's just like this weird time vortex and nexus.

And yet I will also say, hustlers at. tiff 2019 and tiff 2019 was a really good one i like almost everything i saw but that screening was so much fucking fun that room was like vibing with that movie it wasn't just us sometimes you and i will see stuff at tiff that just you and i feel like we are like operating at a higher level than the audience the gloria bell screening i feel like that glory bell exactly um but hustlers that whole room was on our level like everybody was i remember the miss you mind when it comes back again over the end credits, there was a palpable sense of just like joy and exuberance

and appreciation for the movie. And it was so much fun. You can just feel it in the audience, even without like, it's not like there was a sing-along or a dance-along or anything like that, but just like you felt the room-vibing. And it was so special. I remember when Destiny and Ramona are reunited to the sounds of Club Can't Handle Me. and I start crying and you look over at me like, are you crying?

And I'm like, fuck you, yes. No, it absolutely one of like those very electric screenings. And like we didn't even see the first screening. We weren't there at the premiere. But it was just like, I don't, that felt like one of like in my minds of like when you're there on the ground like the, the like where the buzz is just had a complete fever pitch while the festival is going on and we're the crazies who stay through the whole damn festival too so it's like hustlers also opened at the end of the festival so it's like we're still riding high on it and then like we're hearing from all these people who are going and seeing it opening weekend right and like freaking out and it's just like yeah it's almost like the uh theatrical and festival release of hustlers, it was like our Usher showing up at

a club, and it's the last nice thing. That's true. She does say that specifically, just like that last great night. There are, in a movie full of great line readings, just like A-plus, fantastic line readings. Easily my favorite

is Lizzo with her, nothing but pasties on, essentially, and bottoms. Bitch, motherfucking usher is here. Running into the back and go in Bitch, motherfuckin' usher is here. Usher, bitch! It gets out of there.

It kills me dead every single time I see it. It's so good. We're going to loop back to this because we can't get into it this early in the episode, but there is a, like, all-timer line reading that we have to talk about the time. The moment in the movie where I thought I was going to be on the floor screaming for this movie. All right. Like literal rolling in the odds, but we'll come back to it. We are at our traditional almost 20 minutes into the episode point where we should probably get to a plot description.

You are delivering the plot description this week, and I'm very excited to hear how you sum this one up in a minute. We're talking about the 2019 movie Hustlers this week, you guys. Our Listeners Choice episode, thank you listeners. Directed by Lorraine Scafaria, written by Lorraine Scafaria, based on the New York Magazine article, The Hustlers, it scores by Jessica Pressler, played in this film by Julia Stiles, of course. We'll get into it. Starring Constance Wu, Jennifer Lopez, Kiki Palmer, Lily Reinhardt, Julia Stiles, as mentioned. Oscar winner Mercedes Ruel, Cardi B.

I love that this movie is with Mercedes Ruel and Cardi B, one of the most fantastic with ands in film. Top three with and. Yep, 100%. Yiching Ho, Lizzo, Trace Lissette, Madeline Brewer, Stephen Boyer, and, you introducing Usher as himself. I know he's been in movies before. I'm just making a joke.

Yeah. How dare you disrespect the faculty? Or, what should call it? Freddie Prince Jr. She's all that. Yeah, he's the DJ and she's all that. Yeah, I know. He's the one who secretly choreographs that whole fucking thing that everybody talks about all that.

That everybody learns how to do the Rockefeller Skank routine. Yes, fantastic. That was a trivia question, one of my trivias, right? who did the song that they danced to at the end of She's All That, I believe, right? I'm sure you got it. Anyway. Yeah, premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival on September 7th, 2019. It opened wide one week later on September 13th, 2019.

Chris, I'm going to pull up a little phone, a little stopwatch. Give me a second. You'd think I'd be prepared for it this one time, but I'm not. Okay, so I'm going to hit start. You're going to have one minute. Are you ready? I am. And go.

Okay, we're introduced to Dorothy. She is a dancer in New York City. She works at a strip club where we will meet several other different characters. She goes by the name of Destiny. She kind of struggles with it at first, but then she meets Ramona, played by Jennifer Lopez, who is like runs the place. She is amazing. She climbs into her fur, and then they have a unique bond immediately taking care of each other,

but also giving each other tips. Then we slash forward several years, and we realize that Destiny is being interviewed by this reporter, so it tells us that shit definitely goes down. Eventually, they form a bond with a bunch of other girls in the club, but then the market crash happens. Meanwhile, Destiny goes and has a child. The man, Lee, or they split up, anyway, she's a single mom trying to make it back into the clubs to make money, but it's hard to make money then. She meets Ramona. Ramona's been doing a sting where they're basically luring men into the clubs, drugging them, and then racking up their credit cards. Of course,

Obviously, that goes sour, Ramona and Destiny split off his friends, and then they all avoid jail sentences because... That's time. I don't want to say victimless crime. I kind of want to, like, mention that this is one of the things that people had against the movie. It's like they're drugging people and stealing their money. It wasn't easy to reconcile. People wanted more of a... Criminals they could more easily root for in this movie.

me. Right. And I have a lot of thoughts about that. And I also do too. And I think partly, it's a great piece of adaptation because the movie handles it very well in terms of like, talking about how none of these guys want to come forward because they have their own shame, which I, about like, these women, you know, drugging them in a strip club and, you know, racking up their credit cards and profiting off of it. Yeah. The men have their own shame of that happening to them being in that situation, which I think is very linked to, you know, the type of mindset that, you know, prevented people from taking this movie seriously because it's about, you know, happenings in a strip club. I am really reticent. Sorry, finish your thought. No, I was just going to say, in terms of the morality of the movie, I think the movie, handles it really, really well that these are, these women are, you know, making a bad decision. They're doing something wrong. Yes.

But understanding the type of systemic issues, especially after the market crash, and just what it's like for blue collar workers, the type of decisions that they are forced to make. And, you know, who ultimately suffers for those. choices because of course there are certain men that are depicted in this movie that do you know suffer in a way they made yeah they're trying to target men yeah who aren't going to worry about where that $10,000 went but there's a few that they you know yeah get reckless with well and if you if you read Jessica Pressler's article um and it does come across in the movie so I don't think you need to read the article to understand the movie I don't think that's one of those situations. But if you read Jessica Pressler's article,

a lot of the, she really front-loads it with the idea that, like, the hook of this story is, both that the, you know, these women came up with a scheme to get rich off of the, the guys coming into the strip clubs, but also the fact that so many of these victims were kind of objectively unsympathetic, were objectively, she talks about how the, Women talk about the guys in the strip, in the strip club. Sometimes they prefer them to be the worst of the worst, right? The, you know, disrespectful and gross and, you know, rich and, you know, doing bad things with their money because it made it more satisfying to sort of drain them of their checking accounts,

of their, you know, and make them, you know, make them spend all this money on them, rather than the sort of the sad sacks who didn't have enough money, as much money, but who they could sort of string along a little bit, that there is a sense in this movie that it is, I think it would be disingenuous of anybody to deny the fact that there is some satisfaction in watching some of these guys, the worst of these guys, get taken for a ride.

And I think what's interesting about the movie and the way that Scafaria handles it is she rides you down that slippery slope so gradually that by the time, you get to the stuff where they are, you know, where guys are getting, you know, going to the hospital or getting, like, really seriously, adversely drugged, or when you get to the Stephen Boyer character, who is somebody who could not afford to be taken for a ride in the same way that some of these other guys did. And he's got a family and he's got a kid and he's got, you know, a life. He loses his job because they use his corporate card. Right. And so, but by that point, you've gone, you've gone down the slippery slope that you're sort of in it with, these women. And it's interesting to me that, and this was not, I don't think this was widespread. And I don't think it's as clear cut as, you know, all, you know, all male critics reacted to it

in such a way. I think there were, you know, plenty of male critics who took this movie for what it was. But I think with a certain segment or with a certain number of people who, it's about like, who am I identifying with in this movie? And if your identification is with like, oh, what if I was one of these people who wasn't that bad of a guy but I still got taken for a ride how awful would that be rather than

and I think for people like say us or for a woman who's watching the movie you're not automatically going to go there you know what I mean when you place yourself in this story you're not placing yourself in that in Stephen Boyer's shoes you're placing yourself

maybe in Constance Wu's shoes and not you know I don't know from stripping you know what I mean Scafara doesn't, you know, create some empathy for especially, you know, some of these guys, too, because, like, that's what this movie is. Like, this movie is a movie that has incredible amount of compassion for its characters, but that's, I think, the thing that made me so, like, vocivorously angry. Whenever I saw people being like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah. A, first of all, a movie doesn't need to be moral to do what.

it needs to do. Second of all, it's just like, I feel like if you are leaning towards the empathy of the other people, I feel like you didn't want, of these men, I don't feel like you watched the fucking movie. Also, where is this compassion for the people who Tony Soprano, you know, takes out back? You know what I mean? Like, you're able to watch those shows and those movies and understand that these are people doing a bad thing and not get hung up on the fact.

that, oh, but those poor victims. I don't think the movie is sufficiently sympathetic to the victims. And it's just like, the movie's not about them. But this is also specifically a movie about how these characters are led to those decisions who are led to doing criminal acts because, like, that's what the system has kind of nudged them to do in order to survive. Like, there's ample room for different types of exploitation. and like we saw like you know it's a very specific industry and I think the movie like paints the industry very well in terms of like getting us to understand how it functions and how it was affected by the market crash you know and like and then ultimately what it means for the characters too well I don't need to feel like I'm going to vote for Ramona for president but when when she gives that that monologue to

Dorothy about, you know, look at what these guys did to the country. Look at the, you know, pension funds that they rated. Look at the regular people who they bankrupted. And not a single one of them went to jail. And of course, this is a refrain we've heard a lot in the last decade, but it doesn't make it any less true. And it's like, tell me you're not on her side in that. Like, honestly, tell me that you don't feel like, because her thing is... This whole country is a strip club. Right. Her thing isn't necessarily like, I don't think she's trying to be like we are, you know, making a political statement or we are making, you know, a stand for the little guy. What she's saying is, don't ask me to feel sorry for these guys.

And ultimately, that's a very morally complicated statement, but it's hard to not sympathize with her a little bit, you know? Well, and it makes the kind of, not just the morality, but like the political, the, a lot of the layers of this movie, way more interesting than like a, a movie. movie teaching us a lesson. And like even that final monologue from Ramona, I feel like is the only time in the movie that it's explicitly kind of drawing a financial parallel or, you know, a sociopolitical parallel, like making it literal in this movie. And I think because of that and it saves it for the very end of the movie, it can get away with it. It's almost like I, because it's produced by Adam McKay. And apparently they'd, you know, because Loreen Skavaria, for her own script, you know, had to really fight to be in the director's chair, too. And it's like you can imagine the Adam McKay version of this movie where like every scene is that scene, you know, telling us what to, how to interpret this story because we couldn't possibly be smart enough to do it ourselves. Well, and the other thing is you get that one scene, but all around that is,

it's, this, this ecosystem is being described for you anyway, whether you realize it or not. And the fact that, like, who are these people who can afford to drop $100,000 in a night at a strip club? Like, it's nothing to, you know, to treat these women as if they are something, you know, that they can just sort of just, like, throw money on a table for and whatever. And, like, what kind of money must you be making to do that? What kind of regard for that money? Do you know what I mean? Just like at some point when it's, when it's something you can just sort of throw down on a night, the obscenity of that wealth. You know what I mean?

The absolute obscenity of acquiring that wealth and what you have to do. And it's, again, it's just, and this is all wrapped up in a super fucking fun movie where, again, Lizzo says, usher bitch like you know what i mean it's just like this is not a treatise this is not a homework assignment but it is and this is why it got compared to magic mike i think in a lot of ways was in this you know beautiful candy shell of this story about a group of strippers who like hatch a plan which like just that log line enough i'm in you know what i mean group of strippers hatch a plan boom there's my money but within that there is commentary there is context there is you know all this sort of stuff and it's really it's really

fascinatingly done but you you opened the door a bit to the production history of the movie which i think is really interesting because this article the jessica pressler article and i'm looking it up right now because i don't want to get it wrong uh was published well now i'm looking at the article and it doesn't have a date stamp on it so thank you very much new york magazine Web 15. Thank you. Articles published in 2015, almost immediately, Will Ferrell and Adam McKay's production company is looking to turn it into a movie. And you're right. Adam McKay is one of the people who might want to direct it. They also, at one point, were looking at Martin Scorsese, who ended up passing on it. And it's interesting to me, because in the last, I mean, Scorsese's

had a long Oscar history dating back to, you know, taxi driver in the 70s and whatnot. But especially lately, he's been pretty reliably Oscar intensive, right? He's, you know, Hugo gets a bunch of nominations. Wolf of Wall Street gets a bunch of nominations, the Irishman. He's not winning Best Picture, but like he's a pretty reliable bet to get a Best Picture nomination, as is, as of late, Adam McKay with the Big Short and Vice, and now all of a sudden don't look up as getting all of this Oscar buzz. I wouldn't count on it. Well, we'll see.

We're still in the early stages. I mean, yeah, we'll see. But, like, ooh. People who know better than me are calling it a lock for a nomination. And so if I, if that doesn't happen, blame them, not me. But what I'm saying is these two guys who like, maybe there's a version of hustlers that gets made by one of them that gets nominated for Best Picture in 2019 because of that cachet. And there's, you know,

eight billion different wormholes in that argument because Scorsese also has the Irishman that year, so what does he make and what does he not make? Whatever. What I'm saying is there's a version of this movie that gets made by one of them that is maybe more Oscar palatable because of their track record and standing in the academy. And it's maybe more familiar to a movie we've seen before.

Well, right. So, yeah. And so what I'm saying is I will happily sacrifice that. I will happily have hustlers with zero Oscar nominations and be the better movie. And be the Larene Scafaria version of this movie. Because I think that's important. And again, I'm just, you know, dumb me watching the Oscars. Obviously, Jennifer Lopez might feel differently about the, you know, the benefit of getting an Oscar nomination.

There may be a win. But maybe Jennifer Lopez doesn't end up starring in that movie, you know, otherwise. I don't know. I don't know. It's, you know, it's a lot of what if. scenarios. But I'm glad we got the movie that we got, regardless of what happened on Oscar nomination morning for it. Yeah. Well, because, I don't know, Lorraine Scafari, which is like, also because of the Will Ferrell Adam McKay producing partnership of this, we also just got like

one of the best succession episodes that she directed the Too Much Birthday. and the poor boys, sad birthday party. Good Lordy. Basically Magic Mountain on MDMA. What was that fucking treehouse? Only cool people are allowed in here. She blew that shit out of the water. That episode is incredible that she directed.

One of the things in that episode that reminded me a little bit about hustlers is Barry Schneiderman, the woman that Kendall hires at the beginning of the season to, essentially do his media strategy, the one who he says, I just want cool tweets, the one who it's her in Comfrey, I know everybody was talking about Comfrey, but, yeah, who at one point just sort of has this look on her face that she's just like, I'm planning this guy's, I'm running this guy's, this idiot's birthday, like, this is what I have to do, this is the job that I have. And it made me think of, you know, hustlers in a way of just like, Latering to the whims of these people with way too much money must really, like, do some shit to your brain. Like, do some shit to your psyche.

Absolutely. And, yeah, fantastic episode. Lorraine Scafaria is a really fascinating talent in Hollywood. And I really love talking about her, in part because at the very beginning, the very first movie of hers I saw was, seeking a friend for the end of the world. She had been a writer for, was she a co-writer for Nick and Norris Infinite Playlist, I imagine? No, she's at sole screen play credit for Nick and Norris Infinite Playlist, which I did really like. I didn't love seeking a friend for the end of the world. I don't know about you. Where were you at when you saw that? I mean, like, it's kind of doing a bunch of different things. Like, Steve Correll and Kira Knightley kind of have this odd chemistry. that's not satisfying, but maybe isn't supposed to be. It's, like, it's definitely, like, kind of trying to do some ambitious things in terms of, like, I don't want to say likeability. That just sounds so cheap, but undermining the type of, like, relationship dynamics screen chemistry in a movie like this, because it's basically a romantic comedy, but it's also kind of science.

fiction because it's literally about the end of the world um it doesn't ever come together for me until the very end and then i find the very end like pretty emotionally affected so i give it yeah and the the things that are like imperfect about it by the end feel intentional sure sure you know it's certainly imperfect about that relationship on screen and how it they're written um i don't think it fully works but it is a movie that I'm, like, fascinated by in terms of her filmography, because, like, her three movies couldn't be more different when you actually, like, sit and talk about them? Totally. So, yeah, her middle...

The second, however, hopefully we will do some day. The medler I see at Tiff in 2015, and it was one of... It was so unheralded, and nobody was talking about it, and at that point, I think even by that point, people were annoyed with Susan Sarandon because of the Bernie versus Hillary stuff. as we've said before on mic she has always been a jerk like that that whole thing was not new right and doing that type of thing since the 90s right and also like i don't give a shit you know what i mean it's just like ultimately whatever y'all are for real free to give a shit i don't if in 2021 people are still pointing towards susan sarandon in all of the shit that went down yeah please move on

readjust your focus. Yes. But so there was no light on that movie. I basically saw that movie because I had a, you know, opening in my schedule. And of course, I'm a, you know, lifelong Susan Sarandon fan. And I also really loved Rose Byrne. And so, of course, I'm going to go see this movie. And it felt like I was one of the few people who did see that movie at that festival. And I liked it, but it's absolutely a movie that really blossomed for me. on rewatch and on just like the more I thought about it in my head. And it really- You have a spiritual kinship to it because Susan goes to the movies at the grove. Susan Sarandon in that movie, her character, based on Lorraine Scafari's own mother, this is definitely her most personal project of the three movies that she's directed, is the only person in real life or fiction who loves the Grove more than I do. and it's every time I go there now that I've seen that movie I sort of mentally sort of like put myself in her in her position and it's just like I imagine myself as having my like Marnie and the meddler fantasy like that's sort of my day that I'm having and I ultimately it's one of my best days and that was a movie that appreciation for that movie was a real slow burn our friend and former guest Richard Lawson named it his

best movie of 2016 and I remember that like that was not a movie that was showing up on top 10 lists that wasn't like that was not a mainstant top 10 lists and I remember being so delighted that that was Richard's number one movie because it was just like I love a top 10 list that as somebody who myself like I tinker with my top tens all the time I'm very studious about it I'm very much trying to have a list that is really indicative of my passions for that year. And I love a list that really feels like that movie was his number one because he loved it the best. And be damned Oscar campaigns or other people having another top 10 list or like, you know, importance or anything like that. It's just like, nope, that was his number one. And it is a movie that has absolutely grown in my heart over the years. And every time I watch it, I just feel so delighted. It is. It was part of that kind of microgenre of of grandma movies, sort of actress of a certain age movies.

The movie, Lily Tomlin and Grandma. Literally the movie Grandma. Blytheiner in... I'll see you in my dreams. Love that movie. Yes. It is... There was another one. What was the other one?

There was another one. I'm not going to think of it right now. Well, I mean, I guess it's the year after... It did... The year after Philomena. Right. And it did feel like Sam Elliott wasn't all of them. In the meddler, Sam Elliott is played by J.K. Simmons, essentially.

That's very true. I guarantee you that much like hustlers, the meddler is the type of movie that you hear the logline for it and you have a mental idea in your head. But, like, Loreen Skavaria does explore those concepts with a lot more emotional depth than both the movies have been giving credit for, but also. So then I think, you know, people who want to reduce it down to sad old lady movie or stripper movie would ever think are going to be in those movies. What if you just, when you said saddled lady movie or stripper movie, I was like, what if they were both the same movie? What if it was a saddled lady stripper movie? Well, I mean, in this movie, you got poor Mercedes rule stuck instead of taking care of the girls backstage. age, she eventually is just serving red bulls to people.

What a sad, what a sad little commentary. Like the disdain on her face when she's like another red bull for you. If ever in my life, I have Mercedes Rule come into a room where I'm getting changed and bring a chocolate cake. I will know that I have done my life right. What a moment. What a moment. The Mercedes Rule brought Cardi B a slice of cake in a movie, and we all need to be thankful for that. with Mercedes Rule and

Cardi B. Yeah, that's what it was and a chocolate and a good-looking chocolate cake too. God damn it. All right. We are 45 minutes into this episode. We need to get to Jennifer Lopez. We really do. We'd heard,

I mean, like, people started to see because of like interviews and such, we'd heard the buildup. This was after the trailer had premiered, but people start to see it, like maybe a month before, Tiff and we had heard that there was a shot of Jennifer Lopez on the top of a roof that would like blow your mind and like did we not we did not know that it would also be the cherry on top of a sequence that like blows the roof off the place she shows up enters the movie with a dance routine set to none other than Fiona Apple's criminal which was Jennifer Lopez's idea for a song.

One of, like, I don't care what movies you like or what genres you're into, that is a top five all-time entrance, character entrance in a movie ever. That is absolutely, she's giving stardom, she's giving, you know, icon, and performs this, like, incredibly physically demanding routine. The camera does not leave the stage. That's what I love about how Skafaria films that scene. She doesn't, there's no cuts to the other guys and watching other people react to her. But there are cuts to destiny.

And Destiny, the second Destiny sees her, she falls in love with her. And that's what it is. It's a courtship almost. Yeah. Well, Destiny's already been set up really well so far in terms of getting our empathy, too. And it's like, we fall in love with Ramona at the same exact moment that Destiny does. And that is, I think, one of the best things about that scene. If you ever want to do, like, a video essay on, like, what the term gays, G-A-Z-E means in film, that scene.

That scene especially. Who is, who's perspective do we see and whose don't we see? And I love that. Yeah, that whole scene is from the perspective of destiny. And I love that you called out that we don't really have these cutaways to the men in the audience. I feel like it's also a sequence that, like, in very short order is like one upping itself. The first of which is like when that needle drop hits,

we're like, what the fuck? And then she comes out and like is in that outfit is basically naked and we have the destiny stuff layered in there. The whole sequence ends. She has that amazing line of doesn't money make you feel horny. And then cut to her smoking on the roof in the New York City skyline in a giant fur. Before we get to that though, I want to just shout out the art direction of the stripping scene, the way, just the sheer amounts of money that is on that stage, which I think is so crucial to it.

How can she walk on it? How is she not slipping and falling and dying? And again, it's so much money. This is through Dorothy's perspective, Destiny's perspective. So, like, of course, like, in her mind, like, that's, it's how do you not pay attention to the money as well, right? It is literally, it is thick on the stage like you are walking through half a foot of snow, right? And, like, that's the degree to which, like, there is just cascading money around. There's more than she could possibly.

She, like, Ramona walks off of the stage clutching a giant pile of money to her chest. And it's not a tenth of the money that's on the stage still. Like, it's so much money. But then, yes, so then we're up on the roof. It's Ramona in her fur. she's giving young Deuteronomy, it's very, like, she's resplendent, she's sort of like, she's lounging. And again, one of the great lines in this movie, which is Clim in My Fur, which is, that's your thesis of the movie. That's your thesis.

It is a jungle cat, right? It is a luring predator, right, who says to a, uh, a, a, a luring predator, right, who says to, uh, a, a, a, a, a, a, a luring predator, right? who says to a little cub, come in, you know, climb in my fur, and we'll do this. We'll do this together. Well, it's a flip side to those images of destiny watching her. Because, like, in that moment, we get, you know, we are following in love with her with destiny. But then in this climb in my fur moment, she's also, like, inviting the audience in to, like, fall in love with her. And then, of course, it's like, it becomes this moment that's incredibly affectionate.

that, you know, of course, kicks off their relationship together. But like... It's also, and it gives you a little hint of almost like behind the scenes practicality, which is the glamour of these strippers, the glamour of J-Lo, as she's like just the perfection of her body and her, you know, musculature and the way she can move around on that stage. And then in that next scene, it acknowledges the fact that it must be fucking cold as shit if you are up on that roof with just whatever you're stripping in. So it's just like, yeah, come into my fur because otherwise you will freeze.

It's so fucking cold, right? So it's just like, it's a little bit of acknowledgement of like, yes, we're giving you the fantasy, but we are also acknowledging the reality. We are acknowledging. Well, it's one of those things that, like, is unexpected. And one of the things that I find very moving when I watch the movie still is that, like, as Lorraine Scafaria is building this world, she is constantly, like, underscoring that these are people who ultimately take care of each other and are working in an

industry like I've I'd seen people call like this like blue collar workers and I think that that's what it is like it made me really think of like when I was still working at the retail industry cursed times but like yeah when you are at that part of the economic food chain professionally, even in incredibly, like, tense or, like, uncomfortable situations. Like, I'm, you know, not, like, I have awful men at a strip club experience. But, like, people do take care of each other in ways that, like, are not front-facing to the public. Right. And, like, it's just one of the, I think, it's one of the things that sets.

this movie aside that it doesn't really get the credit for and why this movie is so good is how it kind of establishes the emotional stakes and like the emotional support systems you know when you're at the end of the economic food chain you know or like towards the back end of the economic food chain you know what i love about this movie one of the many things that i love about this movie is you'll get a bunch of scenes where it's like romona and destiny or when it's later and it's, you know, Kiki Palmer and Lily Reinhard and all of them sort of going shopping, right? And they're shopping for these expensive shoes and coats and bags and whatnot. And you'll get these like moments of like getting a little bit of like hesitation

or side eye from the clerks there or whatever, but you don't get that like, and you know, no shade against either pretty woman or Julia Roberts, but you don't get that like big mistake huge scene. It's just like Jennifer Lopez is just like, what are you looking at? Ring it up. And they're like, that's it. That's all you need. And that's all you need is this acknowledgement that just like these women, even with all

of this money, are, you know, facing an uphill climb towards respect. And you don't need to have, you know, a big monologue breakdown in the middle of a store demanding that respect. It's literally just like Jennifer Lopez being like, take my fucking card. Like, you know, and it's, it's great. It's so great. But let's, so, so Jennifer Lopez, by. this point because you're right that there was some advanced buzz after the trailer came up

but even when i remember when the trailer first came out and i was not alone so i'm not trying to claim credit here but i literally saw that trailer and i was like jennifer lopez and it's going to win an oscar and i was like and i said it and i was like i don't know how true this is going to be but if it happens i want to be here on the ground floor and i remember being like it was even from that trailer you just looked at it and it was just like this is this is a star you know performance. And what then you did was you took a second and you were just like, wait a second, the timing in this could not be more perfect, right? Because by that point, we were 20 years into the Jennifer Lopez experience of Jennifer Lopez being a famous celebrity.

25-ish. Well, 1997 was Selena, right? So I feel like we, I'm safe to say, like, before that yes, in living color, and yes, like, whatever. But, like, 1997 is Selena. 20, you know, 2019 is. So it's just like, yeah, a little bit over 20 years. And it comes onto the scene with Selena in 97 and then gets the Golden Globe nomination for that. Follows that up with Out of Sight, which she gets phenomenal reviews in a movie that was, like, well reviewed anyway. It was like seen, it was, it took a little bit of like a slow burn just, but only mostly because I don't think it made a lot of money

at the box office, if I could be mistaken, but like, it did not take long for, like, Jennifer Lopez was getting Best in Show reviews from that one, from that movie. And all of a sudden, back to back, we have this, like, she's one of the most exciting young, new actresses in Hollywood. And then the very next year, she pivots to a music career that, from her perspective, does seem like that much of a pivot that was always something that she you know had in her mind right to be this sort of she was a singer and a dancer and an actress kind of a thing and but that pivot to a pop career at a moment where pop was huge like was really cresting this was brittany and back street and sink and christina like this was the era and yet it was a real

bullet train to the type of respect that you are getting as an actress, now you have surrendered that because you have decided to throw your lot in with Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera and, you know, Brian LaTrell and whatnot.

Like, you're now here. You're in this box. And so an incredibly, like, no matter how successful, it was almost like an inverse, right? The more successful she became as a pop star, the less respect she would as an actress.

Well, and her biggest movie roles, too, were, like, romantic comedies, the type of thing that people love to, especially in the early 2000s, you know, like, those movies were kind of sneered at, even when they made a bunch of money. Right. And, like, I'm of two minds, because, like, I'm not going to get up here and tell you that the wedding planner and, well, all right, this is an, like, this is a, like, this is a exercise of this like era of Jennifer Lopez rom-coms what are the good what are where how do you rank them what are like what are your picks of of that era I mean I guess this is a little bit this is maybe a few years down the road of the era we're talking about but like what one am I picking out of the pile to put on first monster-in-law yeah same that's the same um And I feel like I can't, with a straight face, be like, justice for the wedding planner,

justice for maid in Manhattan, justice for the backup plan. You know what I mean? Just like... However, maybe not justice for, but don't read the plot synopsis, get a few of your friends drunk, and everybody watch second act. Oh, like, oh, and I mean, late stage J-Lo is almost like a different thing. But I'm like, from like, 2000 to 2010. like that decade, right, which is like essentially the decade that took Jennifer Lopez from

out-of-sight acclaim to the backup plan sort of bargain basement, you know, as a movie star, right? And in that, she's also making movies like Angel Eyes and Gile, like a notoriously, like, notoriously bad movie in Gile, even stuff where she's like trying to get a little bit of respect, like an unfinished Life, which we talked about on this podcast, El Cantante in Bordertown, where it's like her and Mark Anthony, and she's producing things, and it all sort of falls flat. I will forever stick up for enough, of course. Enough is a... What a good time.

Cool movie. Like, I really like that movie. But, like, this is a decade that, you know, again, the pop success goes up and the respect within the film community and the quality of, I would say, it's fair to say her movie is goes down and so that that we forget though that she is the star of the cell we have to mention we have to mention we have to mention the cell which but like that's not really a role that serves her but like she wears some iconic iko ishioka costume so like and again but again because that's 2000 like the rest of the decade kind of swallows that up too

even you know for yeah you're not really thinking like oh well jennifer lopez is at least in like cool projects like the cell. Like by the end of that decade, you're not really thinking that anymore. So then the 2010s is a really kind of odd decade for her where she's, it feels like she's figuring out what's my next act, no pun intended, going to be, right? Am I going to be an American Idol judge? Am I going to be mostly a producer? She starts producing a lot of things at this stage. Um, you know, what's my singing career going to look like? Am I going to do Spanish language stuff? She tries some of that. Am I going to be more of a, like, uh, EDM voice, you know, in, in more like, like, overtly dance.

Dance music. What, like, what is, what are, what, am I, am I just a voice in, in animated stuff? You know what I mean? She had done stuff like that. And, um, and the movie roles were sort of fewer and far between. She's in, you know, what to expect what you're expecting. And nobody likes that. She's in the boy next door, which I fucking love and is a good fucking time in a movie.

but, like, is not a very well-expected movie. That's a get drunk with your friends movie. That movie is crazy. But, like, those are the movies she's making is, like, you've got to watch this movie and have a good fucking cocktail in your hand when you do it, Lila and Eve, second act, boy next door, right? Like, that's, those are the movies she's making. And so by the end of that decade, I think the Jennifer Lopez that we knew,

both as an actress and a pop star, was a little bit in the rear view, And there's a little bit of nostalgia there of, wait a second. And there's, again, a thing that we tend to do a lot in culture now is we'll reappraise things from not that long ago, right? We'll reappraise, you know, we'll give something a reappraisal that's only maybe five years old. And I think by that point, a lot of people were looking at Jennifer Lopez and being like, did we really appreciate what she was giving us as a star? As a like, you know, when we're when we're a little bit of distance away from Benefer, which we'll talk about that, and when we've got some distance from Gile and when we've got some distance from even, you know, her time on American Idol and whatnot. And it's like, what did we have in Jennifer Lopez and what could we still have in Jennifer Lopez? And so then Hustlers comes along at this, like, beautiful moment where Jennifer Lopez is turning 50.

And she still got it. And I mean that in like eight billion different contexts, right? She still got it talent-wise, physically, hustle, no pun intended. You know what I mean? And all of a sudden now, we're entering into this new decade of Jennifer Lopez. And I think the pump was primed for not only big successes, but the culture to be really, like, welcoming. of J-Lo's fucking back.

And Hustlers comes along and, like, delivers on that in a way that I think exceeded a lot of our expectations, which were already a little trending upwards, if you know what I mean. I mean, the whole, like, star persona, too. Like, it's an incredibly, just to talk about her, like, star persona in this role, like, if you followed her for a long time, it's an incredibly rewarding watch because it's just like, she's never been more correctly cast she's like you can tell that she knows that and that she's like really running with it and like you know finding these character nuances that like some of the movies like the boy next door are not the type of things where she's given the opportunity to do that in a long time so it's like on top of the movie being very good it's very rewarding to see this type of star performance that we don't get very often well and it's also a thing that capitalizes um on, again, a reappraisal of all of the things, or at least a lot of the things that we kind of,

and when I say we, I mean the culture, I'm not necessarily meaning you and me, kind of bagged on her for, where it's she had gotten a reputation as being a diva, and in hustlers, she's a fucking boss. She had gotten, like, think about how much ink, like, her butt got in those early days of just, like, you know, redefining the, you know, body image.

image stuff and just like so much focus on her curves and her butt and hustlers is just like the grammy's dress created google images right right like all of that and and and she was a sensation for it but we also you know the culture kind of mocked her for that and in hustlers it celebrates that in such a huge way and it lets her own that it gives her ownership of that and um a lot of like the tabloid stuff with her you know from her relationship with puffy to her relationship with ben affleck and in this movie, this movie is just like, yeah, you try taking your eyes off of her, essentially, right? You know what I mean? It's just like, of course we've been paying attention to her this whole time.

Wouldn't you, like, look at her. You can't, like, she's magnetic. And so Hustlers really allows her to own all of that narrative all at once. And so it's not only this, like, great performance, it's a perfect movie star moment, but it's also, it's a culmination of two decades of stardom, all in this world. one performance. It is a perfect cultural moment. I can't, like, you couldn't have crafted it any better. I mean. Right. So, which is, which then I think leads into a little bit of my, not a little bit, probably a lot of, my annoyance in ultimately the fact that she doesn't end up

getting an Oscar nomination. Because if you look at, and again, I don't, I really don't want to play like if this were a man card because like it gets really reductive but the ingredients that she has going into the Oscar campaign of 2019 where not only is it a great performance that critics loved it is the sort of it's the narrative that it puts on her career is impeccable like it's like we talk about how Oscar really loves sort of career narratives where you are you know, you're cresting and you're giving your, you've reached this like culmination point of your career. Oscar tends to love that. It is, there's physical accomplishment stuff. Oscar loves when an actor will put themselves through a physical ringer for a role. And like,

look at all that. Like, she didn't just like show up on that poll in a day. Like, she worked for that. She trained for that. There were, you know, videos and interviews about how hard she did work to graphed it. She's like, we're going to do this so that they can see my face so that they know that it's me. They know it's not a body double. They know, and I mean, and that's again, and it's part of the text of the movie when, you know, when destiny is just like, what if I don't have the muscles to do that? And she's just like, every woman has the muscles to do that. Like she's, and it's just like, and it makes you focus on the fact that like the muscular control and power to be able to do what is, you know, in many ways thought of it's just like, you know, oh, it's a girl on a pole, you know, whatever. It's like. It's like. Like, it's tossed off. And yet it's like, no, this is like, this is dancing. And her career is a dancer. Like, all of this stuff, even the fact that she was campaigning and supporting.

And I'm like, there have been, like, I wouldn't necessarily call it category fraud, but like you could make the case for her as a co-lead in this movie. Like you, like, her and supporting, this is like a really significant supporting role. So there's even like the whiff of category fraud, which tends to help in, in these situations. And the fact that none of it. Especially if you are a large name. Like, yeah. I mean, that same year, right?

was, you know, and no shade at all to Tom Hanks in a beautiful day in the neighborhood, but, like, that certainly helped him get that Oscar nomination, right? And so... I mean, I think that's a supporting performance, too, but... But he's a big name, you know what I mean, in a supporting category. So, all of these things tend to be ingredients that would go into a really a bulletproof Oscar campaign. And the fact that it didn't, beyond the fact that...

that it's such a great performance from a great movie at a celebrity who I, you know, really love is a fucking bummer. Yeah. See, this was, I think, our initial hesitation when the nomination didn't happen is like, we don't necessarily want to talk this movie because, like, it's such a bummer.

It has, like, the entire right formula for success. Yeah. But, like, ultimately, at the end of the day, it seems like one of those movies where we're going to back ourselves into an, argument that is basically the Oscars aren't cool enough to nominate this. And that's, I do

actually think it's a little true about this movie, but it's not just the Academy's fault. It was like the way that this movie was talked about. Like, it was, like, this movie wasn't given enough credit for even its success. Right. Like, and like Jennifer Lopez

wasn't given enough credit for this movie's success too because this movie made $100 million at a time where everybody wants to complain that movies for adults, that, like, granted, this isn't entirely original. It's from an article, but, like, it's not IP. Right. And, like, nobody wanted to give this movie any credit.

Or Jennifer Lopez and Constance Wu for being the star of this movie and getting it to the finish line from an independent distributor. Yep. That's the other thing is Anna Perna essentially bails on this movie halfway through because they were going through their own problems. STX ends up distributing it. And, I mean, I guess no shade to SDX, they are not... I mean, they have more Oscar success and have gotten closer than, like, Bleaker Street has. Sure. So it's like, it's not like, it's impossible, but, like, they're not entirely fluid.

STX has had movies with promise before that they hadn't been able to do much with. I think it's, you know, I think a more savvy, uh, destroy. maybe is able to get Jessica Chastain something for Molly's game, I think. Even something like The Upside, which like nobody really, nobody really loved that movie in our circles, but like there have been other movies. They could have made money. Well, didn't that movie make money? It did make money.

That's the thing. It made a lot of money. And it was based on a, you know, something that had gotten, that had existed within sort of the Oscar sphere. And ultimately, like, they weren't able to mount a campaign. for it. So, but I think a lot, a big part of the problem is, as I said before, the rest of the movie gets discarded in the campaign and it's just a Jennifer Lopez campaign. And as we've seen with the Oscars through the years, and especially lately, now that we're in the top

10 era, it's very hard to get an acting nomination if your movie is not in the best picture discussion. Basically, the nomination tally every year, basically allots for one or two such people. And, like, that's basically it. If your movie is not, at least in, like, the top 12 discussion,

you're not going to get an acting nomination. It's just like we're... It's really wild that, like, this movie really didn't even generate much adapted screenplay conversation, which I'm like, you're right to say that, like, part of the reason

why Jennifer Lopez probably didn't get it ultimately is because they were only talking about her performance and only her performance was getting pushed. But, like, they could have gotten that adapted screenplay nomination, you know, and, like, to help bolster it. But, like, that was one particular... I mean, like, I... Not to be one of those people that just reduces

a female directed thing to the screenplay, which we're going to see again this year with Maggie Gyllenhaal, I think. But, like, that would have been an easy... get well and it's things like and like it's just net there was never an effort put in costumes art direction like things like that like their photography editing exactly and so that being said the jennifer lopez campaign also kind of does everything right first of all she was like a fantastic presence on the campaign trail like that was i want if there was a hall of fame for junkets like the hustlers junket belongs in the hall of fame that was

just I can picture the sort of was this kind of like this like pleather burgundy beret she was wearing during that one junket of course we all remember Chris before this episode started I was like do you have the video of so wait a minute actresses so wait a minute actresses I literally was like

do you have the actresses actresses video and you knew exactly what I was talking about thank you my god I was so nervous and she was such a trooper and so amazing I feel like we bonded in that moment I was like, I had a respect for you. Yeah. After that, that was like, I was like, yes, we can do this movie. So, wait a minute, actresses.

When Yabby, when Yabbe acted like Yabby fighting, y'all be really fighting? Well, there's a way to do it. Yeah, you have to do it real, but you also have to be careful. I was like, it's on my phone. Cardi B, listening to them talking, listening to Jennifer Lopez and Constant, we were talking about a scene where their characters were fighting and having a physical altercation in the movie. And Constance got bonked on the face for. reel with a phone and so cardy expressed her incredulity that you know that are you really

fighting when y'all fight when y'all fight and are you really fighting it was so good i love her so much constant jumping in well yeah it's great um perfection fantastic fantastic fantastic my favorite pop culture moment yes fantastic campaign work by jonifer lopez also she had lined up already had lined up the super bowl halftime show her and shakira one of the great like Maybe my favorite Super Bowl halftime show of this, like, pop divas on the halftime show era, like, I know the danger I walk in when I don't rank Beyonce as number one in something. But, like, this is, this to me was better than Beyonce was better than Madonna, was better than Katie Perry, was better than all of them. It was absolutely my favorite. And it should have come.

Like, I think it was, I think that Super Bowl was like the night before the Oscar nominations. It absolutely was because there was a lot of like hand-wringing by us who were rooting for her to being like, oh shit, will her, you know, preparing and rehearsing for the Super Bowl, prevent her from campaigning? And I don't think she really started the rehearsals until after, like, nominations or close or something like that. Yeah, she did not seem particularly absent from any of the campaign. And, um, but it like, it should have been. And I mean, she's nominated by all the major precursors. That's the thing is all of them. Not just like the Globes and Sags, but like Globes, Sag, Critics Choice, Independent Spirit Awards. She wins the Los Angeles Film Critics Award for Best Supporting Actress. She's the runner-up to Laura Dern at the National Society of Film Critics. She's like, this is the resume of, she got a Movies for Grownups nomination. I mean, you know how much we love that. This is the resume of an eventual nominee. And yet, I remember us all being really scared. and ultimately justifiably so I think part of it was when she didn't win the globe because we all thought like if she has a chance in the season she's gonna win the globe because like we know they're star fuckery they've nominated her before like it felt like the chance for her to be able to have a speech on TV and like you know here's the other thing make a moment of that and I just want to like get this on the record and then we can be past it because I've gotten I know exactly where I've gotten this not in this argument

a whole lot. And I think it's one of my kind of frustrations in sort of being, talking about the Oscars on the realm of Twitter that we talk it in, which is, you know, we're at the nexus of movie Twitter and gay Twitter, I think you and I. And the way that especially gay Twitter will turn things into heroes and villains so easily. And Laura Dern in Marriage Story became the villain then of that season after decade plus of being kind of the darling of, you know, actress Twitter, right? And a lot of like, you basically

proved your bona fides by like knowing enough like Laura Dern rolls, which was annoying in and of itself. But like to me... It's also... Okay, keep going. To me, and I know maybe we disagree on this,

that is a performance that is if it's not my own personal number one it's close enough to it it is in no way to me a substandard performance it is in no way like this is a comedic performance how often do we talk about

that like that the Oscars don't recognize comedy I know marriage story isn't necessarily a as much of a comedy but she is the comedy presence in that movie like she is giving you like that is not that is not a it's not even a dromedy performance like all she is giving you in that movie

is comedy even when she's giving you her big sort of like... Her weird ass tea right you know the like the woman orders a salad and it's funny not a rap dress uh yeah the like bandage dress that she wears decor right yeah she's funny in the movie

I think it's all it's not just the the homosexual urge to turn things into heroes and villains it's also the homosexual urge to resent you doing exactly what we love you doing because it's like

it was also people wanted to turn her into a villain because they thought that it was just for not a client again which like I disagree it's not it's not but like people wanted to play like they were sick of it also people

like that movie was sort of teed up for Twitter ridicule in a way that was really annoying obviously like, Scarlett Johansson is not everybody's favorite actress on Twitter. Like, she is not, like, she's Dunk City, kind of, you know, and basically anything she does. And I'm not going to get into a conversation about whether that is right or wrong. But the way that marriage story was kind of broken down into bite-sized memes by people who hadn't seen the movie

and then decided that they were going to make grand statements about the quality of the movie because they saw one scene of an argument with no context around it really, boiled my blood. And it's like, this is the exact dumbest way to, like, ingest culture is by stripping it of all contexts. And I know part of that is Netflix's fault for getting cutesy with Twitter and deciding that they were going to make a meme out of their movie about divorce, but did not serve that movie well. Sometimes I do think people mistake memes for disrespect. Sometimes it's just that, like, of course, it's all bandwackening. But, like, sometimes memes start out of

passionate obsession and I think that that gets misinterpreted sometimes that memes start out of inherent disrespect. I'll grant you that but what I will also say is the memeification of say the scene where the argument scene with the two of them right

that then led to people being like and people say this is a good movie and this is a Best Picture nominee like garbage and it's just like have you like you haven't seen the movie you haven't seen right like it's just memes are not movies you know what I mean like this is it's it's makes me mad I mean it's also the same it's also the same you don't know what you're talking about type of thing of people who are like you hear these stories of like press and certain critics like trying to get people to watch hustlers and they just roll their eyes at it or sneer at it in a way that it's like that you know yes anyway that's my reductiveness is a score Um, so, yeah. So, Laura Dern was always going to win, though. I think because of the positioning that, like, she was in, she was having a moment. I don't think there was a chance that she was going to ultimately lose that Oscar. And I get the resentment that Laura Dern was able to ride a wave of career achievement, and Jennifer Lopez wasn't. Like, that bums me out, too. I, it would, it would be a different story if Jennifer,

Lopez had at least gotten nominated. I know a lot of people would have still been pissed on Oscar night and would have been like, you know, fuck this white lady. But ultimately, to me, I mean, you know how I feel with the Oscars, right? We're ultimately, for me, who wins is way, way, way less important than who gets nominated. I am that dork. Right. It's an honor to be nominated. I agree. The nomination is what, like, enshrines you in history. And I think one of the things I kind of, not to get too highfalutin or whatever with our dumb little podcast, but one of the things that I really love about our podcast is that we like, when we talk about movies we like on this podcast, we, it's a little bit of just like, don't forget that like this was part of the conversation too. This was part of, you know, the greater sort of scope. Because I think one of the things that I love the Oscars for, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be into the Oscars if it didn't have the benefit of sort of, you know, the, the, the yearbook aspect of it, the kind of this was what was, at least part of what we were talking about this year. And this was part of what was important this year. And what annoys me is

when a movie doesn't get included in that, or a movie that I don't think should get included so much, gets, you know, overrepresented in that way. And to me, the nomination is the thing. And so so much would be different if she had just been nominated, because I think that's justice and that is only correct. And that, you know, you know, you know, I don't like bagging on Kathy Bates, but that Kathy Bates nomination sucks. It's too bad.

It is... I'm sorry. I hate that movie. I think she's bad in it, and I don't want to have to say on the record that Kathy Bates is bad in something. I would have liked to have just move on from Richard Jule, but it is the footnote.

Yes. So the Oscar nominees for supporting actress that year ends up matching the Golden Globes exactly, right? I believe It was Dern No, sorry Annette Benning got a Golden Globe nomination

and Jennifer Lopez, right So it was Bates though And I don't think Florence Pugh did I think what I was thinking of is that Bates was also at the Globes and then everybody forgot about her

and then she like comes like sneaking back in at the very end and gets the Oscar nomination right because the Oscar field for that category Laura Dern obviously wins Scarlett Johans gets nominated in supporting for Jojo Rabbit the same year she got nominated in lead for Marriage

Story. I think she's actually great in both of those. I don't know if I'd have nominated her for Jojo Rabbit, but I think she's really good in that movie. Florence Pew rules in a little women, as far as I'm concerned. Spectacular. I just re-watched it recently. She is amazing. We didn't really like, people just loved her and I think like she's hot at the moment, like same year's midsamar. Yeah. So it's like she's having a moment. So of course that nomination happened. But, like, nobody ever really talked about that she got an Oscar nomination for a mostly comedic performance. Well, and again, a lot of what I loved about Little Women and the way that Greta Gerwig adapted that book is how it front burnered Amy in certain parts. And so Florence Pugh really had to deliver for that movie to turn out as well as it did.

And she really does. Like, that is absolutely—I get the Midsomar Stuff. I loved her in Midsomar, too. I would have nominated her both times that year. But, like, she absolutely deserved that little. She probably gets my vote to win of all of them, much as I, again, love Laura Dern and marriage story. Laura Dern's probably my number two that year.

I think I would have voted for Florence. And then... Are you saying that Jennifer Lopez is on your lead ballot? What's happening here? Oh, I mean among these five. Oh, among the actual numbers. Like, of everybody, no, of everybody, Jennifer Lopez is my winner. And then you get Margo Robbie and Bombshire.

a movie that I kind of sort of waved through was like well it's okay. It's not great, but it's like it's okay. I know, I don't think I have huge issues. Yeah, I don't even think it's okay anymore. Like, I think it's just like it's it's a missed opportunity. It's weirdly conceived.

Down to the lensing of that movie when her character has to go through that horrible scene where she like has to flash her underwear at him. The camera ogles her in a way that I think is is, you know, just as dehumanizing.

And it's like, the movie doesn't even realize what it's fucking doing. It's not movies gross. Anyway, why are we talking about bombshell? Who in the past year has watched or thought about bombshell? Well, right. But again, this is what a nomination does. A nomination keeps, like, it enshrines you in that moment. And so I don't necessarily even think Margot Robbie is bad in that movie, but, like, that's a waste of a nomination to me.

Like, that is. Right. And should have been nominated for, I would say, once upon a time in Hollywood. would like I like she's on my right let me bring up my ballot but like yes she's definitely would have been in my top five for that I would also be willing to say that it's very possible that Jennifer Lopez wasn't even sixth and Nicole Kidman was for because like oh god yeah because it was having such a moment she got the SAG nomination yeah you're not wrong that's a bummer I mean a huge that's a real bummer

It sucks, but I would wager. Oh, man. All right. Let's see. Let me bring up mine. This was around when I was sort of moving my word doc of the best movies of the year and lists to excel. And I want to make sure that mine. No, mine was up to date.

So, right. So Jennifer Lopez was my winner that year. Dern nominated, Florence nominated Margo Robbie for Once Upon time in Hollywood, and then Cho Yo-Jong for Parasites, the mom, the mother of the wealthy She was my runner-up. I loved her. To Jennifer Lopez. So much in that.

But... Another brilliant comedy performance. Yeah. Also, like, there were some great, like, comedy performances were actually, because also, among my runners-up, Tony Colette in Knives Out, Divine Joy Randolph in Dolomite is my name. Yeah. Love her so much. There was some really good stuff.

So anyway, I also had Octavia Spencer in Luce. Sure, she's on my long list. Yep, absolutely. She is phenomenal in that movie that I have mixed-ish feelings about. I think it's a good movie. I don't love it as much as some people do. But, like, Octavia Spencer is, like, that's her, maybe her best performance. She's great.

I also had Agnastain in her smell on my long list. Abs so fucking Lutley. She's so good in that. Yep. But anyway, so, yeah, it. It's, who were, you mentioned that, uh, that, um, Nicole Kidman got the surprise SAG nomination. So that would have been at the expense of, uh, Florence P. So Florence gets the Oscar nomination after getting snubbed at the Globes and SAG, which is wild because I never thought she was in danger of not getting an Oscar nomination.

Exactly. Well, I think there was, SAG always has something. If somebody's not there, it's like they didn't have screenings or screeners in time. Right. for something because I don't think Little Women was nominated at all at set. It wasn't. It was not. Which is wild

because I saw a screening of that movie and you know I am not high up on the priority screening invites or whatever. So I saw that movie in like mid-December. In like early December. Like I saw it in plenty of time for all of this discussion is what I'm trying to say.

It's also that like in award seasons past we always talk about how easy it is to like, you know, woo the globes and the Hollywood foreign press association for a very specific nomination. But, like, there is some strategy to how people still show up at SAG, too. I mean, like, their nominations tend to prefer, like, movies that hurt a little earlier in the season, or at least ones that really, really target SAG for screenings. So, yeah, here's my...

Showing up for Q&As. Here's my hot take. And, you know, I love to throw bombs when the Golden Globes are involved. For as much as everybody wanted to shit on the Golden Globes, especially recently, about everything. But one of the things that got wrapped into there was they make bad nominations, right? And everything that they nominated sort of got called into question. And yet, I think there is not enough discussion about, like, maybe whipping the SAG nominations into shape too, because this does happen every year where an incredibly

worthy movie gets left off of it entirely because of things like, well, it's screened too late or whatever. And it's just like, ultimately, I don't care why. It's not serving these movies well, right? So, fix it. You know? Fix it, Steve. Fix it. Steve. Fix it. Because, like, I don't care. Like, Little Women is one of the best ensembles of the entire year. And the fact that it gets left out of the award show that honors best ensembles is dumb. Like, this happened to Beale Street in its year. This happened to Selma in its year. And it's just like, ultimately, like, at some point, this is going to keep happening if we don't

either change the voting window, which I think is ultimately, I think that's the biggest culprit here is in its quest to keep up with this weird arms race of, like, getting your nominations out earlier and earlier and earlier every year, SAG has sacrificed. you know, actually watching all of the movies of the year. And it's dumb. Well, I wonder, I should have pulled up my calendar to know when the nominations are because I bet that SAG is going to be really weird this year. But SAG, the thing about SAG is that I honestly don't think they're very influential unless

they are. Like, they tend to kind of fall in line with, like, frontrunner statuses. It's the one that is, like, overlapping more and more with the eventual Oscar winners. and part of that is the calendar. But, like, sometimes they can be very, not, like, influential, but they can, like, kind of clear a path for a movie or a contender. I wrote about this during this very year regarding Parasite. I was like Parasite is going to win Best Ensemble,

and that is going to be the, like, free way to it winning Best Picture. When we talk about the Screen Actors Guild Awards as an Oscar precursor, I think one of the ways, I think the way that it's most useful, to us in that it is an award in and of itself and I don't like to devalue it. Like winning a Extreme Actors Guild Award is a great honor for somebody.

It's adulation from their peers. It's arguably the most important award. I know they say that when the actors win at Sags and we don't believe them. But in many ways, it probably should be, right? It's the one that is only voted on by their peers. So, but... It also is the award season joke

that always is giving that I will like every tweet that I see of this, the, like, random, random, random statistical facts of bad shit that I was in. I'm Margo, Robbie, and I'm an actor. One of my favorite Oscar tradition. Always funny. But as an Oscar precursor, which we also, you know, look to it towards, I think what SAG is most useful for is being the canary in a coal mine in a couple different ways.

In one way in which, like, if SAG doesn't go for something and with the caveat that, like, and we can assume they saw it, that's, you know, that's a warning signal. If they really go for something that you wouldn't expect, Vigo Mortensen in the hippie movie, what the fuck was it called? Captain Jack, no, what was it called? Fantastic. Captain Fantastic. Thank you.

That nomination, where all of a sudden it's just like, oh, there's more enthusiasm for this. Because obviously the line is the biggest branch in the academy as actors. So SAG offers an indicator of what, if SAG is offering an indication of what the actors are going towards, Then there's overlap there. So you get some concrete, you know, indicators. But also, the SAG nominating body is huge. And it is also crucially not just LA-based. It is actors everywhere.

It's actually somebody who got a SAG card and then, like, went and moved back to Kansas City. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. Well, their nomination process is never the same, too. Right. So I think because their committee's changed. change, et cetera, et cetera, but because they are a larger voting body, too, this also makes them

more populist, which is how you get things like Taryn Egerton nominated for Rocket Man. And you say, well, what does populist have to do with the academy? But one of the underrated things are under sort of discussed things about the Oscar voting is, like, yes, we all assume that everything is being voted on by Barbara Streisand. You know what I mean? Like, that's sort of what we envision in our head when we think of an academy voter, right? Somebody sort of wealthy and fabulous and rich and cloistered and all this sort of stuff. But, like, every year we get reminded that, like, y'all, the sound designers vote on this, right? The, you know, the people who work in crafts categories who have more of a, you know, in general, meat and potatoes sort of taste in movies.

And that again and again comes up and you're just like, oh, right, the Academy isn't necessarily a slam dunk for whatever, like, gay auteur shit that we love. Like, sometimes they like a movie that likes why the Academy doesn't really like Todd Haynes. Right, right, exactly. So, and I think... Which, I mean, especially for a movie like hustlers, it's two things.

One is like, because the way that it was promoted handled the narrative around the movie itself never was elevated for people. It made like, it made

like Oscar snobbery for lack of a better word way more like it made this movie vulnerable to it because like the other thing is they are snobs and like if they just think it's a stripper movie then it's just

a stripper movie and I think ultimately snobbery was a big part of what did hustlers then because it got snobbery from both ends right it got high end snobbery of just like ultimately this is a popcorn movie about strippers and like we can maybe give Jennifer Lopez a little bit of consideration but mostly

were going to turn up our noses at it. And then it got the sort of more blue-collar snobbery of just like, I'm not watching this movie about, you know, is this a movie about strippers or is this a movie about, like, you know? People who want to enforce a moral code on the movie. Right, right, that, yes. So. There is also something which may me talk about in that, like,

Jennifer Lopez hasn't had a reputation for being liked, and some of it is all sourced back to this 98 movie, movie line interview that like she has like come out against previously in some of the things that she's quoted as saying when you read it it reads like she's having a phone call with someone else that is like a manager or someone that is a private conversation that like she wasn't media savvy enough at the time to like not say those things within earshot of a reporter but like she's dissing on other actors. She said she doesn't know any movies that Gwyneth Paltrow was in the year before Gwyneth Paltrow gets her Oscar.

And this interview was from pretty, or this was like out-of-sight era, right? Yes, because the interview is from 98. She says that she basically calls Salma Hayek a liar for saying that she was offered Selina. The thing she says about Cameron Diaz is that she's a lucky model who's been given a lot of opportunities. And, like, some of it doesn't always read, like, it's trying to be a dig. And some of it, I'm like, there's no way she said this to an interview, to an interviewer. Like, this is somebody's overhearing a phone call or something.

But also, I guess, like, have a little bit of awareness of, you know, who is in earshot when you're having a phone call and when you're, you know, it's funny that, like, either Jennifer Lopez's every phone call back then was that sort of dishy and vicious or, like, she picked a hell of a day to decide to run down everybody she didn't like among her peers um again it's from our perspective fucking delicious and a big reason why we love her but yeah i think her her she had gotten a reputation over the years of being and again we always talk about the line of like how much credence do we put in reputations for actresses and for women of being demanding and you know and divaish and not opinionate right exactly and it's like

Again, I'm sure there are people who have this reputation where it's probably more than a little deserved, right? Like, you could, like, I imagine that there are assholes out there, right? Especially if you have money and authority and whatever, like that can make you act like an asshole. But I think trying to parse how much of these reputations are deserved and how much of it are sour grapes or people who are not used to, you know, limited authority or yada, yada, yada. We are not going to not love any, like, Faye Dunaway little homosexual boy story. We're going to love that. And yet, on an individual level, were any one of us to be subjected to Faye Dunaway in person, we probably wouldn't like it very much. So, I get it.

It's not good. But, like, so long as somebody's not being abused, like, there's no reports of, like, Jennifer Lopez being, like, abusive to people. So it's, like, it's fine. Grain assault. grain of salt and like you know so long as nobody's being mistreated who cares we need divas again like make america diva again yeah no i get you don't not let's not don't do that to me um can we talk more about uh some of the rest of the cast in this movie because sure but i think but i just perhaps isn't oh good i just say before we close the book on on jennifer lopez though i do

want to talk about this current moment of where jennifer lopez is at now in her career because right now, like, she couldn't be more appreciated. I feel like this post-Oscar snub, we've gotten, obviously she performed at the inauguration. She ad-libbed, Let's Get Loud, into the National Anthem, which was, or was it America the Beautiful? One of the ones, I don't know, whatever it was, it didn't have Let's Get Loud in it, but now it does officially forever. One of the great moments of Glee cast version featuring Jennifer Lopez. what like the watching that live and being in as many group chats as I was in and just the reaction of that being just like she said what we were all just like plotsing it was fucking amazing and then perhaps even more improbably she and Ben Affleck seemingly and I say seemingly because again who the fuck knows what you know is real in celebrity world or whatever but like seemingly are back together just because they fucking felt like it and is great and good for them if nothing you know

i am not a ben afflick optimist but neither am i and i was very reticent about this whole reunion at the very beginning because i was like she's better than him blah blah blah blah blah blah but he seems to be getting his shit together if ben affleck optimism is going to give me a renewed wave of jennifer lopez appreciation i'm fully here for it and so yeah so i just want listen if ben aflapha Poptimism yields a last dual nomination for him. The Academy has to retroactively apologize to Jennifer Lopez. That is true. That is true.

It would be kind of a troll to give him a nomination for that, but it wouldn't be necessarily undeserved because he is like, he's vibing with that movie in the way that movie wants him to vibe. But yeah, you're right. Ultimately, cosmically, that would feel unjust. Anyway, yes, let's talk about the other cast members because they deserve it. Constance Wu is sensational. She's really fantastic.

I think she is great. Yeah. Her scenes with Julia Stiles in particular. Closer or a runner-up to my best actress ballad. The slow burn she gives in the scenes with Julia Stiles when she's being interviewed and the way she's sort of, she's sort of stonewalling her for a while as she's narrating the story, which is a really interesting sort of needle to thread there. And watching that sort of facade melt, the more that Julia Stiles, who is playing,

I'm playing Jessica Pressler, but she's named Elizabeth something, rather, fictionalized version. Elizabeth Holmes, Julia Stiles starts, you know, selling Theranos. Actually, Julia Stiles would be a good Elizabeth. She would be. Am I crazy? No, you're not crazy. That would be fantastic. But the way that, like, the more that Julia Stiles mentions Ramona and uses that to sort of get Dorothy to reveal a little bit more is really kind of fascinating.

For scenes that could be tossed off as, like, you know, frame story, whatever, I think it works really, really well, actually. Julia Stiles actually gets some good bits in this movie. It's like when she does the double take, when Dorothy gives her the tea after hearing about the drugging. Yep, yep, that's great. But no, like, especially some of her, like, she gets to have, like, the big weeping monologue with Julia Steyer. But, like, I think some of the final beats of the movie are really interesting and complicated in terms of what we think destiny is, you know, in these relationships for. Because, like, there is this push and pull with her relationship with Ramona, especially after all this goes down. And she continues to, like, I roll about Ramona in some of these interviews and, like, calling her a liar and such, like, things like that.

And ultimately she still feels like compelled. She's asking her at the end of the movie. Like, what did she say about me? It's just, it's an interesting character dynamic that, like, you think it could be so easy for this movie to just, you've seen movies like this where it's like all the supporting characters around the protagonist are way more interesting. Right. Right. Right. And it's a personal detail that comes from the Jessica Pretzler.

original article that the woman that she is based on would like continue to contact Jessica Pressler and like talk to her like she's a friend and it's like painting her as this person really desperate to connect and well that's one of the great things about the movie is ultimately the the kind of you know found family kind of a thing which you know you know I am a sucker for. But just, yeah, the need that these characters have to not only just have somebody have their back, but to have

somebody feel familial to them is really fantastic and the best parts of the movie. Like, I love... Well, and I think one of the smart things Lorraine Scafaria does to position that, like, desperate need they have for each other, is that it also shows how the system

uses that against them and pits them against against each other and, like, creates these scenarios that are never going to allow their type of, like, union to exist in more than a short period of time. Right. Right. Like, um, let's talk about Kiki Palmer and Lily Reinhart, who, when they enter the movie. Oh, Kiki Palmer. It really kicks it up a notch when the two of them sort of create this foursome with, uh, with JLo and Constance. Kiki Palmer is a fucking star

Cannot wait for her to be a lead in Jordan Peel's next movie Kiki Palmer I love that like Kiki Palmer first came into any I think either of our appreciation with Akila and the B like years and years and years ago and we've seen you know sort of young stars kind of have that one big movie and then

not really anything comes of them I think I'm thinking of who was the the young woman in half Nelson who I thought was so good Sharika Epps. Sharika Epps. And it's just like. So good. But like, you know, and do we do we see as much of her? I obviously I know Adapiro-Douye like shows up in things. She was just in, um, uh, Falcon and the Winter Soldier and she's been, like, she's working. But ultimately, sometimes like these, these sort of, you know, young stars of these movies, you want this like great, you know, career for them.

And sometimes it's just like, well, where'd they go? And what I love about Kiki Palmer is, she just kept showing up. Like, she would go away for a little bit. And then it's just like, oh, she's in Scream Queens. She's great in Scream Queens. I love her. And it's just like, and then, you know, a little bit later, she'll, like, show up in something else. And this was, was this the movie, the press tour that she did, sorry to this man.

Was that what she was promoting for that? I think so, because it was Cheney, right? Yeah. I don't know who that is. It might have been, it might have been for Scream Queen. Queens, actually, but I don't know. But, like, no, because it was more recent than Scream Queens. It had to have been for this, then.

I'm sorry to this man. We've talked about this, I think, maybe briefly. It's just like, again, just a top 10, like, celebrity promotional moment ever. Just like the accidents, the little accidental moments that come up in these things. This is why we love the Hollywood Reporter roundtables, I think, so much, is these little moments of, like, revealing humanity. and just the phrasing it's not just that she couldn't recognize Dick Cheney which also is like a fun little dunk on Dick Cheney too

where she's just like he could be walking down the street and I wouldn't Dick Cheney you aren't shit Kiki Palmer doesn't know who the fuck you are fuck you Dick Cheney But because she didn't know who he was she could just have this grace and just be like sorry to this man

it's so good she has some of the best line readings in hustlers and they're not even like... We Love You, Gary is the funniest thing I've ever heard. And We Love You, Gary comes from this moment of like cross-talking cacophony, right? Because they're all panicked and nobody knows what's going on and everybody's doing whatever. And then above the din, you just hear Gaking Palmer going, we love you, Gary.

And everybody fell out. Like, it's... That was when I thought I was going to, like, fall on the floor. It's so great. If that's when that, this movie felt like a fucking rock concert. Yep. It was... Yep. Yep.

And maybe that was just the two of them. us you know causing a scene but um i mean her line readings are genius she's a brilliant like physical comedian that part where it's like she's in basically swimona uh a swimona bathing suit and these absurd heels and she has to like shuffle away oh from the the the er door yeah oh my god yes um it's great i love her she has my favorite costume in the movie too the like maw of trench coat when she gets picked up while visiting her boyfriend in jail. Yeah, truly fantastic. We've talked about Cardi.

We've given her her moment. Let's talk about Mercedes Rule playing the other iconic Ma in 2019 cinema. Love that she's called Ma. I don't think we realize she was in the movie until we. We were just like, we're sitting there, and then Mercedes Rule shows up, and I'm like, fucking Mercedes-Rull! Yeah. Her presence in this movie really contributes to the movie feeling like anything could happen at any time, and you will absolutely love it. It's true.

I just love that, like, her character exists in this, that she's like a backstage matron who is as much a part of the family as everyone else. Lily Reinhart gives her an iPhone 4S for Christmas This is iconic iPhone 3 cinema What did you think of the runner with Lily Reinhart Pukes involuntarily? I feel like that's maybe the one thing that I would have just like Maybe like one less moment of that Maybe I just don't like puking in movies, I don't know

I mean For a movie that doesn't have like those kind of level of jokes in it I'm fine with it to have like, you know, the puke joke in there I think, you know, she, I wouldn't say she's, like, the least developed character. I would. That movie, well, I mean, like, it might be a fair criticism. It feels like she's just, like, the saddest character, you know? Like, there's something about her presence that always feels like is drifting towards a certain type of tragedy.

Here's what I will say. And I am somebody who, um, it's not the. that I didn't want to keep watching Riverdale because, like, its insanity did appeal to me. There was just too much Riverdale, and ultimately, like, it got away from me. Between Hustlers and Riverdale,

I would like to see Lily Reinhardt cast as a lead in a comedy in some way. I think she can do it. I think she's got the stuff for it. She has the least to do here. I think the best stuff that she has is when she's, like, the

I mean, when they go fishing, as they call it. What would she be like the real when she's like reacting to this really like shitty guy and she's saying how gross she thinks he is but he's not listening? Can we talk yes that was fantastic but can we talk about

all of the repetition of my sisters are coming and then they'll cut to the shot of different configurations of the three of them but it's always Ramona at like the head of this flying V walking dramatically into a room all of those shots are in the trailer to tell you exactly what this movie is

God bless Lorraine Scafaria for not like I could see another director being like this is two like NFL football promo like that level of just like raw raw just like but like considering what they're doing that's why it's like perfect it's perfect and it's also like again know the experience that you're giving your audience you're already giving your audience this like very visceral like enthusiastic movie your audience wants a moment where you want to just be like fuck yeah like strut into this room it is every single time they did that i was such a fucking sucker for that it was so good all right um lizzo had her great line delivery of the usher thing ultimately again she's playing her flute i hope that lizzo has that in her contract forever that if she ever gets

cast in things it has to show off the fact that she can play the flute um love trace I set in this movie. She has a couple good moments talking about how her, they give that little cutaway to her boyfriend. She's the one with like the boyfriend who doesn't like that she's doing this to sort of like represent that angle of the article. It's our second Met Towley film we've talked about the year that this actress was in Hustlers and Cats. Wait, who are we talking about? She's like the bitchy mean cat. Oh, and who, oh, is she the short-haired? Yes, she's got the pixie in the movie. Oh, she was great. Yeah, she cut a good, She cut a good figure in that.

Madeline Brewer, who people know from The Handmaid's Tale, played the... Bitch, when Madeline Brewer shows up, run. If, like, Madeline Brewer shows up in a movie, things are about to go down. She is the chaos agent. Yep.

Also, I want to mention Stephen Boyer, who by this point was a Tony nominee for that one play with the puppets that I can't remember. Hand of God. Yes, thank you. But I mostly know, because I didn't see that show, but I mostly know from the NBC sitcom Trial and Error.

Did you ever watch Trial and Error? No. Oh, it was so good. Oh, it was so funny. Second season, Trial and Error, Kristen Chenowitz, shows up and gives a phenomenal performance throughout that entire season. Also, iconic post-30 Rock Sherry Shepherd television is Trial and Error, so I highly recommend it. I watched an entire season of that, like, on a flight from New York to Los Angeles, and I did not regret a thing. yeah it's a fantastic cast it's a fantastic movie i'm trying to like dig through my

my notes and see if there's anything that uh i want oh what we didn't mention we should have mentioned right up at the fucking front uh i wanted to say it too i was like this is a podcast about control because like okay yes we we've got to talk about the music in this movie because it's all so brilliant and it's like for a movie that has like so many needle drops It's usually the type of thing that we would think is so fucking annoying, especially, like, these days. And it's all, like, recognizable pop and R&B music. Yeah. Okay, first of all, starting the movie with This is a Story about Control is maybe the second time that they, like, Lorraine Skavari is really underlying, you know, the thematics that she does really elegantly elsewhere.

It's the first thing. It's the first thing you hear in the entire movie is this is a story about control. And it's like, and then it's, like, the song keeps playing and it's that whole, like, March 3. the stage. It's shown in this unbreak and shot. So it's like, it reminds us of movies like the wrestler or, you know, things where it's like physical like athlete movies.

And plus it's like the idea of just like this not like marching order, but like, and I don't want to be as gross as be like a march into a slaughterhouse, but like it, you know, it puts it in this kind of grueling context. And also though, like, again, not to make this entirely into like a recap of like our personal viewing of this movie but again

when that happened when that the like screen goes dark and all of a sudden it's this is a story about control you felt a charge go through that entire room where everybody was just like fucking we're we're already there like we're already on board with this oh so good well and um also miss you much is used brilliantly because it's like playing in the background of like after they've drugged the first guy and they pulled it off and they're kind of of euphoric, but then it's basically used as a curtain call. Yes. Which, like, more curtain calls in movies, absolutely, especially for this cast where it's, like, top to bottom, everybody is fucking delivering in this movie.

Like, so smart to have included that. I do not need another jukebox musical ever in the world. But if there is going to be a jukebox Janet Jackson musical, it should be the Hustler's Musical. Let's get Shoshana Bean that Tony. She would be an amazing Ramona in the Janet Jackson Jukebox musical of Hustlers. Also, I was going to say, I was just about to bring that up. Like, not only... It's like the most fucking euphoric thing.

It's like the universe opened up and was just like, all along, you didn't, maybe you didn't understand what the purpose of Usher having a hit song called Love in This Club was for all these years. And it was just like, oh, it needed to be. inserted into the timeline when it did so that by the time the movie called Hustlers happens we had already like we had already gotten the foundation laid for us and then this movie the song can like happen and it's just like oh right this is why this song has existed all this time I mean all the songs are like help really establish this as in a very specific like period piece way even though it's like you know 15 years or 10 years yeah uh

prior you know the movie functions as kind of a period piece and all of this music places you not just in a certain uh very like specific two to three year period but within like emotional setting within that period well even just like physical setting like these are the songs that of course we play like obviously club can't handle me as playing because like of course it is like Kelly rawon's motivation of course is playing yep exactly exactly Britney spears is give me more this is my shit right here this is the thing Jennifer Lopez saying this is my shit to a Britney Spears song, what finer pop excellence do you need? You know I love a scene, a moment where a song goes from diagetic to non-diagetic and like A plus version of that, but also, I am

somewhat reluctantly to say, because I know that like her fans are scary, I'm not always the biggest Britney person. And I will say that like, this movie is the only recorded instance of me

loving gimmee more but I love it so much in this movie just within the context of this it's so perfect it's absolutely like ideal I love it and like as I've mentioned the club can't handle me sequence yep makes me cry my only my only criticism also the fact that they used night moves at one point like the one like song that doesn't fit the vibe of the other uh the genre of the other songs, but all of a sudden they're just going to throw some Bob Seeger in there. Also, Royals, kind of too, but, like, Royals, that's the moment, like the, you know, time's movie. Right,

right, right, right. But, um, that they used a Big Sean's dance ass, but not the Nikki Minaj verse moment from that. Just makes me a little sad, is all I'm going to say. The, even, like, the, like, classical score that's used for some of,

uh, dance training sequences, the, like, final montage, uh, I think it's, the final montage, but there's a montage of like moments of Ramona and Dorothy together that's set to no other love that makes me cry to where it's just like, you know, these people can be incredibly important to you at, you know, a certain passage of your life and then shit gets complicated. How about it's like, but that's still perfect for that time, um, yeah, that you spent together.

How about the Frankie Valley needle drop that happens exactly. And they call her Dawn. Oh, my God. Madeline Brewer coming in to fuck shit up. But also just like coming off of, you know, the grandma telling the story, her little like Frankie Valley story. The Frankie Valley story, honey. That's such a fabulous scene. Hustlers is a Christmas movie.

I feel like we've all accepted this at this point. Yes. Dirty secret of this listener's choice episode is we were going to do this as our Christmas movie. I didn't know whether we wanted to say that. But yeah. Yes. Oh, okay. We'll cut it out if you didn't want me to say that.

it's a no it's it is iconic christmas programming and we should turn it into a tradition she wears a beige santa hat bitch it's so fabulous that's the thing it's like not nominating this thing for costumes is almost as much of an outrage as the jalo snub it's not as much but like it's up there it's just it's unconscionable it understands the moment when bandaged dresses were everywhere also like it created it like they went to the trouble of like creating garments for swamona like not only did we get the notion of it but like we got to see them and you know these are epaulettes that's french for little shoulders that's french for little shoulders what a great line all right we have been going at this for a while chris are there any last things you want to throw in before we do i mdb game

oh man that's a lot of pressure because I still feel like we only scratched the surface of this movie I know I love it so much this is like this is definitely like friendship cinema for me yeah this is like a movie that I tie to our friendship very daily yeah yeah this is a foundational block for sure I would pay any amount of money for the cheap necklace that Constance Wu wears that says sexy talk about 2006. Yeah. Yeah, it's great. It's fantastic. What a wonderful movie. We'll be talking about this movie for the rest of our lives. Honestly, this movie did not get any Oscar nominations,

but it did manage to become a cultural institution. And for that... And it made $100 million, and nobody was making any noise about a movie like this making that much money. In September. It opened in fucking September and did this type of business. And granted, like, maybe the September release was also part of the problem that it was so early in the season. And it wasn't like the type of movie that like Knives Out became where it's like, it's the counter programming during Christmas and Thanksgiving.

Right. You know, and maybe that could have kept it top of mind for. Yeah, I mean, ultimately. Oscar voters. You never know. Oh, this is the last thing I wanted to mention. and we don't have to spend too much time on it. But as I was going down the awards tab for hustlers

and the many things that Jennifer Lopez did win, one of them was she won the Razzie Redeemer Award for a previously razied actress who made good or something. It's such a barf moment of just like not only are the razis going to be like shitty when you're doing poorly. they're also going to like find a way to twist the knife when you're doing well to just be like remember you used to suck in our eyes so we're going to give you a redeem reward because like good job of like finally satisfying us like fuck you people oh it makes me i of all the things that they do that's the thing that makes me actually the angriest because it's just like like they can't even let people be good at things right just like fuck off like who the fuck are you like that's my whole thing with the razzus it's just like like, who the fuck are you? It's so dumb. Didn't even win it that year.

Eddie Murphy won it for Dolomite is my name. Which, like, again, just like, save it. Like, save your bullshit. Like, help Eddie Murphy get an actual Oscar nomination. That would have been helpful. That would have been good. Stupid. Anyway, Chris, do you want to tell our listeners what the rules for the IMDB game are?

Sure. The IMDB game. We end our episodes with it. We challenge each other to name the top four titles that IMDB says an actor or Actress is most known for, if any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. That's not enough. It just becomes a free-for-all-of-hint and slapping Gary on the cheek to wake him up and telling him that we love him.

That's right. All right, Chris, would you like to give or guess first? I'll give first today. All right. Let's hear it. All right, so for you, I went back knowing that Hustlers is a brilliant, brilliantly performed and observed ensemble directed by Larene Scafaria. I wanted to go back to one of her past performers. We talked about her debut feature Seeking a Friend for the End of the World, starring Miss Kira Knightley. Oh, have we not done Kira Knightley? Wow.

Apparently, we have not. All right. The first Pirates of the Caribbean Correct I'm going to momentarily put aside the other Pirates of the Caribbean Pride and Prejudice Correct

All right All right Atonement Correct Could this be yet another time That you get three right answers Before watching a perfect score Yeah

Well so my question is do they really love the Joe Wright stuff and give it also for Anna Karenina? Or is there something else that I'm missing? There's her other Oscar nomination for the imitation game, but that is supporting. What other ones that are possible for Kira? Like, it's not going to be like a dangerous method or anything like that. But, or like laggies, even though I do love her in laggies. I need to see laggies still.

Oh, it's good. It's, you know, it's a Chloe Grace Moretz movie that actually is good, because it's not about her. It's about Kira. I'm just going to say Anna Kerenina. Incorrect. All right. Damn it. All right.

What else? Is there another? Is she in another franchise that I'm just forgetting about? Oh, you know what I'm going to guess? Because it's weirdly, like, I do feel like it shows up. The Duchess. Incorrect. Damn it.

All right. Your year is 2014. Invitation game. I'm imitation game. Today we call them computers. Yes. Honor the man, honor the film, honor Kira Knightley's contribution to the film. All right.

Honor the man, honor the film is what we should have used in the hustlers campaign for Gary. Yes. Because they love Gary. They do. They love Gary. You should honor that man. All right. Sorry to that man.

All this cyclone. That's the true sorry to this man is about Gary. Gary. Yeah. That's what she went. They dropped him off at the hospital. I'm sorry to this man. Got to go.

All right. For you, hustlers, obviously, I mentioned it a little bit, makes me think of Magic Mike, two iconic movies about strippers that are about the economy, actually. And we've gotten some good news recently that Steven Soderberg is going to make another Magic Mike movie. Okay. But if it just goes to HBO Max, I'm sorry, but, like, he needs to be in fucking theaters. Like, I know.

How many people do you need to talk to about, like, how wild their theater experience was for the Magic Mikes? Like, just put it in theaters. Come on. I'm hoping that I don't wish ill for King Richard, a movie that I liked but didn't love. Um, but if that movie ends up having its, like, Oscar hopes and dreams. sort of scattered by the fact that its release turned it into a bomb when it shouldn't have been a bomb. Maybe they'll just stop with this stupid day-and-date shit after this cursed year is done. Well, they're supposed to, but I think because Soderberg's movies on HBO Max

are all set up to not be theatrical because no sudden move and let them all talk didn't have theatrical releases. But I'm just hoping that like things change. You know, I'm hoping. I'm hoping. Anyway, the star of that movie, once again, is going to be Channing Tatum. We love it. We love news that Channing Tatum is going to be back in movies. I'm not going to say that I spoke this into existence when I lamented recently on here, where is Channing Tatum? But I'm glad that we found him again.

He's out riding a bicycle that is too small for him and publicly flirting with Zoe Kravitz. Right, right. All right. So, but for you, Chris, I'm going to ask you to name the known for Channing Tatum. Well, Magic Mike has to be there. It is not What the fuck? Yep.

Does that mean I have to guess double XL? I don't think so because like no less people saw XXL. 21 Jump Street. Correct. Now do I guess 22 Jump Street? Wait, are there any voice performances? Nope. Okay, so none of those Lego movies.

Right. He voices Superman in the Lego movies. Didn't this show up for someone else? I'm going to guess the vow. No, but iconically, iconic Channing Tatum But Cinema, the vow. Truly, you can ask for a few better. All right, so that's your second strike. You are going to get your years.

Your years are 2013, 2014, and also 2014. If there's two 2014s, one of them has to be Foxcatcher. Correct, Foxcatcher. Foxcatcher, he's amazing, his best performance. Is one of those 22 Drumstreet then? The other 2014 is 22 Jump Street, correct. Yeah. So, one more.

So 2013. 2013. 2013 is right before Foxcatcher, obviously between the jump streets. Um Oh, another Sodaberg movie, Side Effects Uh, it is not side effects I will say he has five 2013 movies

Oh wow One of which is the cameo in Don John, but yes It's definitely not that Yeah, spoiler it's not Don John Yeah, not side effect Wait, Magic Mike was 2012 Correct Because it's the year before

McConaughey wins Is this when he did that damn G.I. Joe movie? Is that your guess? Yes. Yeah, no. Yes, 2013 was G.I. Joe retaliation, but it's not that. So you're down to two other Channing Tatum movies from 2013, one of which he plays Channing Tatum,

and one of which is the movie that I want from you. Movie where he plays Channing Tatum is This is the End. Correct. So what's the other, the fifth 2013 movie from Channing Tatum? I mean, is it something like White House Down? It is, in fact, exactly White House Down. Nobody saw White House Down. I did.

Is White House Down, like, on FX every day or something? It's of the two movies that were made that year, where the president had to be rescued by a hunk. It's the one I liked better. So, he's on the trailer in a, in a, in a, tank top in a in a in a sure in a dirty tank top it looks he looks great all right well done good job good imdb game that listeners after a one of our longer episodes in a while and and justifiably so that is our episode if you would like more this had oscar buzz you can check out the tumbler at

this had oscarbuzz dot tumbler.com you should also follow our twitter account at had underscore oscar underscore buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find you and your stuff? This is a Twitter account about control, control of what I tweet, and control of what I do on letterbox and Twitter at Chris V-File, F-E-I-L. Excellent. I'm on Twitter at Joe Reed. I'm also on letterboxed as Joe Reed, both of which the read is spelled R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get podcasts.

A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So if you've already written us something nice, we love you, Gary, if your name is Gary, or even if it's not. That's all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more both. make a play to make my love stay so what would an angel

say the devil wants to know what I'm recording and my levels also look good Hey Look at us How about that? We're very destiny in Ramona That

What about pariah? All right I will Janet Jackson, Velvet Rope, what about that? What about Miss You Much? We have to have so many. What about Sean Kingston? Stop it.

Wait, who is Dance Ass? Is that Big Sean? What about Big Sean on Dance Ass? God. So stupid.