This Had Oscar Buzz - 177 – Secretary

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

After a few minor roles in American indies, Maggie Gyllenhaal broke out in a big way with Sundance hit Secretary in 2002. The story of a young woman who copes with her mental health issues while entering a BDSM relationship with her boss (played by James Spader), Secretary was praised for its dark wit and daring, and immediately put … Continue reading "177 – Secretary"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. If you need any more typing, I could come back later. Thank you, Ms. Holloway.

Good night. Come into my office. Finally. This isn't just about typos. It's your behavior. What about my behavior? It's very bad. I'm very fond of you.

I'm your secretary. If we can fully experience pain, we can live a more meaningful life. He's the best. Made in something sexual. There are other ways to show your feelings. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast sending the bottom-ey's emoji to Eli Wallach. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy.

I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my redacted, redacted, redacted, redacted. Chris File, hello, Chris. I couldn't find a way to make it thematic to this movie without making it thoroughly disgusting. I mean, it still could be. Listeners, what were those three redacteds? Comment below. Yeah, this is a, this is a difficult movie to talk about without getting fully into some real intimate topics. Listen, listeners, if you have us playing on like a sound system while your children wander the house, maybe, maybe put some headphones in for this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. this could be one maybe if you're listening in the car on like a long trip with the kids or

whatever just like just go back and listen to hustlers again hustlers will be much more wholesome I think than the uh than our secretary episode not that we're going to like really like get into like the nitty gritty but like there's you know I mean I mean we're not like a sex shaming here at all but like no yeah this is uh I okay maybe we need to keep a tally listeners can keep a tally for the amount of times we say spank and all of Of its, not derivatives, but like all that. Anytime though we say Spank. Yeah.

I had not seen Secretary before watching this in the 20-some years since it premiered. It was always a movie that was sort of on my list. There was no particular reason why I avoided this movie. This is just like one of those movies that can't see everything. And so I was excited to finally get the chance and the excuse to see it. to talk about it with you, and I had assumed that, like, obviously Chris has seen Secretary, because, like, you've seen, I think, just onbalance more movies than I have. But you haven't.

This is the first time. No, this is my first time, too. I think this is one of the ones that slipped through the cracks that, because I was in high school when this movie came out, and, like, this one, when I'm like, I want to see Secretary, I think I got a firm, no. And then I just, like, never watched it in college. And I've, it's been super available lately. like it's always on and off

HBO Max it seems like but um and I've wanted to watch this but ever since we watch this since we've done this podcast this is one of those movies that I'm like well I can't watch this until we finally do an episode on it but here we are

yeah here we are here we are with Maggie Gyllenhaal in the Oscar race for a very different reason that's right yeah we wanted to talk about this because it was a nice little tie-in to the fact that Maggie Gyllenhaal is very much in the Oscar race with The Lost Daughter. I think at this point, we're kind of expecting a screenplay nomination for Maggie and for the Lost

Daughter to show up maybe in a few other categories, but seems to be sort of scrambling on the outskirts of stuff like Best Picture and Best Director. Yeah, I think people are underestimating its chances getting nominated in Best Picture. So do you feel like it does have a strong chance. I mean, being that there is exactly 10 that will happen, I think like there's a number of movies that have more chance than, you know, maybe people are thinking about. But like, this is a movie that keeps coming up again and again. I think because, you know, Maggie kind of has this triumphant directorial debut that's getting really embraced. I do think it has a decent shot. And it did get a Golden Globe nomination for Best

picture, right? Yes, but like, I feel like even more so. It's like, you know, it's an asterix. What does that mean this year? What does that mean this year? But, like, I think anecdotally, the way that this movie is continually being talked about, I think the way that, like, in terms of a contender for Netflix and how Netflix was maybe a little unprepared for it to be one of their strongest chances outside of

Power of the Dog is really interesting. What's funny is I feel like now I'm seeing a lot more polarization, perhaps. I've seen some people being like Lost Daughters like the best movie of the year or like one of like the top five movies of the year. I'm seeing also other people being like, why is Netflix pushing the Lost Daughter at the expense of something like passing? And I'm, I just feel like people are sort of like going to their camps a little bit. I mean, the thing is what I think people are. are underestimating, like, I look at that Critics' Choice best picture lineup, and I'm like, huh, okay.

Wait, seeing movies that I wouldn't expect to be there, but because of, like, preferential ballots and such, like, you have to look and see, like, where are the passion votes for some movies right now, and I think The Lost Daughter is a movie that is going to have a sizable amount of passion votes behind it. That it could be a best picture nominee. Just to, because you mentioned the critics' choice, best picture nominees. So that, I just pulled it up just so our listeners can be on the same page with us. That list is Belfast, Coda, Don't Look Up, Dune, King Richard, licorish pizza, Nightmare Alley,

The Power of the Dog, Tick, Tick, Boom, and West Side Story. Of those, I feel like, don't look up, got that nomination, and got those votes before the sort of the critical masses weighed in quite negatively on that show, or on that film. So I think that one is, if you're going to talk about, like, what from this lineup might miss at the Oscars, that one. And then I could just be very wrong. You like Nightmare Alley more than I do. So, like, maybe I just am clouded by the fact that they didn't care for it. And maybe the Academy will see something with production values like that and a director who they very recently gave Best Director and Best Picture

and will be more amenable to something like that. I could see, though, Nightmare Alley getting left off. And we do forget the fact that, and I know another movie that you and I feel very differently on, is being the Ricardo's, but like I really feel

like the Academy is going to go for that. Beyond the fact that I like it, beyond the fact that I like it, I think that's a best picture nominee. So now, we're talking about maybe one-ish slot. I also don't know if Tick-Tick Boom is going to make it. Yeah, TikTok Boom is not going to be a best picture nominee.

Even though I think it maybe should be. I mean, Coda is a giant question mark. I think Coda is making it. I think Cota is going to be a nominee. I think it's getting more and more towards... It's getting way more attention as, like, the season has gone on. Like, it has more attention now than when it first showed up in Apple and in theaters. Which is a big indicator.

I think that's what needed to happen for that movie. So I think all the things that need to happen, It also now has a solid contender for an acting nomination, which it maybe didn't six months ago. So I think Coda, I would give a much better chance than things like Don't Look Up, Nightmarelli, Tick, Boom, that kind of a thing. But these are the movies that Lost Daughter is kind of in competition with to try and crack this. I guess Spencer is also part of that group, but I don't see Spencer as getting a Best Picture number. No. No, no, no, no. I think people were way over. I feel like we talked about this in our mailbag, but, like, people from the jump with Spencer were underestimating how strange that movie is and how that would go over with the Academy. Again, it's the same trajectory as Jackie. It's really funny. Like, it's almost to a note the same trajectory as Jackie is, like, monumentally better than Spencer.

I don't know if I would say the word. monumentally, but I would agree that Jackie is better. I think they are the same kind of divisive, though. In fact, I think Jackie might be stranger. I think Spencer is a more straightforwardly told movie. I feel like, I kind of feel like the opposite is true. I feel like the people who hated Jackie and were like, why is this movie so weird? I felt like that's the movie I watched when I watched Spencer.

Granted, I like Spencer just fine, but like, I was like, well, this is a strange one. I thought Spencer was full of things that I really liked, and I really didn't, and I was really confused by, and sometimes it felt almost like embarrassingly yearning for like poetic, you know, moments. And sometimes it had something that really landed with me. And it's a really, it's a grab bag of a movie, which I will take over something that I find a little bit more flatly okay. But it's also not the, not. not a great recipe for, you know, getting nominated for awards and things like that. So anyway, I want to take this back to something you said because we can also bring it back to Maggie Gyllenhaal and The Lost Daughter a little bit. Yes. You kind of were like, I don't think she's going to be a best director thing, which I think that's what the Globe nomination is not Best Picture.

She got a director nomination. So she got a lone director nomination at the Globes? That's so rare. That's so funny. Right. She pulled a David Lynch. But I think that's true. I didn't pay too much attention to the Globe nominations.

It was so funny that morning because the morning of the Golden Globe nominations, everybody in the same breath was like, this doesn't matter. And yet we were all talking about it. Because how do you turn that switch off? You know what I mean? We were still talking about who got nominated and who didn't get nominated. nominated and whatever. And we were keeping this, you're right, by the way, it did not get a best picture nomination. It did get Best Director. That's so weird. That feels like not a very

Golden Globes thing. But anyway, we were still talking about it. It's so, it's so strange. The tone in the last year, when we had all decided seemingly collectively that we were done with the golden globes and we didn't need the golden globes there was this tone of just like finally we are free of the golden globes and we never have to talk about this sham of an awards and everybody was talking like they were being fucking held hostage by the hollywood foreign press because they had a TV show and now that they don't have a TV show and nobody's showing up talking about it and all those people kept still fucking talking about it so it's just like I I'm sorry now that the gun is like is this like some old like phantom Stockholm syndrome or something like that like it was I I will it's

going to take me a while to stop being sort of feel like a lot of people were being, if not hypocritical, like a little bit performative about the golden games. Rubbernecking on a car crash. Something like that. I think it's wild to me that, and I know that there were underlying conditions and the field was ripe for a takedown of this show, right? but it's weird to me that the proximate cause came from snubs that happened in the Golden Globe's television awards, which don't fucking matter. Like, so don't fucking matter. And every year I would try to tell people, stop complaining about snubs in the Golden Globe's

television categories, there is no such thing. They are just, they are random and weird and, like, bonus content on a DVD. Like, the actual thing that matters is the movie awards for as much. as it's a weird thing that they do matter, inasmuch as the Golden Globes made a difference they did with movie awards, whether we thought it shouldn't have been or not. But I don't know. We've talked about this. I'm going to go to the fucking movie. My stance on this is firmly the table was set against the Golden Globes because the stars didn't want to do it anymore and they were in a position to say no, no more, and that's why it's over. I don't

entirely disagree with you. But I think when you say the stars didn't want to do it anymore, I think that's, I don't think that's true for everybody. I think if you look at this year, I think somebody like Rachel Ziegler would very much like to be doing the Golden Globes this year. Somebody like Anthony Ramos, somebody like Alana Hame, like people who are like on the, like, would very much like an Oscar nomination because of what it will do for their career. and also maybe they just won an Oscar nomination because who wouldn't. Right. They're not going to be able to get the benefit that the Golden Globes would offer them

by getting the nominations that they got. Certain off-ramps on this freeway are no longer options on your route to X, Y, Z. And I think one of those people is Maggie Gyllenhaal. Like, I think it would matter to an Oscar voter to have watched the Golden Globes and to see her name mentioned in the same recitation as Jane Campion, and Steven Spielberg and didn't even lose. You know what I mean? Well, this is what I was going to say about, like, you'd mentioned earlier that you don't

think she's going to really be in the director conversation. I think people are... I think that's what I'm hearing. I'm not maybe... Yes, I'm not pinning this on you because I've heard this a lot. And I think that I don't want to go so far as to say that's naive, but I think it is very interesting that people are overlooking the type of consideration that, that are given a lot of actors turned directors in Hollywood.

And, like, some of those people have made good movies, bad movies, and gotten Oscar nominations for it. But, like, even though, like, Lost Starter's not going to be on my top 10 or anything, but, like, it is a distinct directorial vision. And I do think the fact that Maggie Gyllenhaal is famous for being an actress, she's an Oscar nominated actress, and makes this movie, people are treating it like it's out of left field for her to make this movie

and it's successful and people like it that's what's keeping the movie in the conversation. So I do actually think that there's a chance for her to get a director nomination. I think because

something like De Neville Nove getting a best director nomination looking more likely is probably limiting that. But like, of course the director's branch loves rewarding actor-turned-directors. I do think this is a year

where we're looking at a lot of academy faves being in positions that could end up acing her out. So Spielberg, obviously, huge academy fave. Denny Villeneuve is coming off of, well, not coming off of, I guess, because there was Blade Runner in between, but he's a former Oscar

nominee, and he is directing the kind of movie that lately has got directors nominated, something big, something massive, something... If there's some contingent in the Academy, like we saw with people having hesitancy to Roma and continually doing so, if they're wanting to reward something that is a theatrical experience or, like, intended. And that he actually, yeah, and he actually, like, vocally, yeah, he vocally advocated for films and theaters, which I think,

yes. But, like, Paul Thomas Anderson is a huge academy fave. Jane Campion is a former nominee and best director. And obviously, I don't, I don't think any of us think Campion is in any way vulnerable. Brana is not only directing a movie that is playing very well with Academy audiences, but like is also an old Academy fave of like your. And it's just, it's a lot of competition. I'm not saying she's guaranteed to get nominated. I think that she deserves more consideration. Not just for like what she pulls off with the movie, but because of Oscar history. Like, it feels like she's getting brushed aside for something that, you know, like Kenneth Branagh is being, you know, taken for granted about, you know, like. I get that.

I get that. Um, and, you know, I love Maggie Gyllenhaal. I like, I want all the success for her. But so let's, let's steer back then into secretary, which was the movie that put her on the map. There were some people who knew who she was, obviously. Um, before that, after we get through the plot. description. We'll sort of, we'll give you the, we'll go through the Maggie Gillen Hall story. Um, but this was undoubtedly the movie that broke her out into the realm of serious actress who we need to,

you know, pay attention to like next generation, Sundance sensation kind of a thing. And she doesn't make the best, she's, she's her film's only real chance for an Oscar nomination that year. in Best Actress, she sort of lingers on the outskirts of what ends up being a pretty solid six people for five spots race. And she's in like seventh. And so she's there. She's in the conversation that whole year. But at some point, she was sort of relegated to that like also a possibility, you know, paragraph that's like Maggie Gyllenhaal will talk about Isabel Hubert and the piano teacher that year was sort of in that same paragraph. And the way that these movies are in somewhat of a dialogue together is very fascinating to me.

So we've got a lot of interesting things to talk about. So let's get to it. First, Chris, I am going to task you with a 60-second plot description of our fair movie secretary. Good movie. Pulling up my stopwatch, but before we do, I'm going to give the rundown. We are talking about the 2002 film secretary, directed by Stephen Chainberg, written by Aaron Cressida-Wilson. We'll get into it. This is our weirdly third Aaron Cresceda-Wilson movie that we've been talking about. Based on the short story of the same name by Mary Gateskill, starring Maggie Gyllenhaal, James Spader, Jeremy Davies, Leslie Ann Warren, Stephen McCattie, Patrick Backow, Amy Locaine, Queen Amy Locane of, if you remember,

Cry Baby and or the first season of Melrose Place. Jessica Tuck is also in this movie. If you are a soap opera fan, Jessica Tuck is the name you maybe know. This movie premiered at the Sundance Film Festival on January 11, 2002. It also then, several months later, played the Toronto Film Festival on September 6th, 2002, before opening and limited release on September 20th, 2002. Chris, I've got my stopwatch ready. Cool.

Are you ready to give a 60-second description? of the film secretary are you going to uh punish me if i don't get okay see this is what i was worried about chris this is the temptation that we're both going to get into throughout this episode all right um listen you don't know i'm gonna i'm gonna oh that that's that's the tension is that i don't know what's okay okay all right all right and begin all right secretary opens on lee a young woman who's getting released from an institution and returning to her contentious family she has lots of issues with self-harm. Despite having no skills, she applies to be a secretary for a lawyer named Mr. Gray. Gray hires her and quickly proves to be very cold and demanding, but her submissive response

to his demands turns him on and his dominance turns her on, and they both realize that the other is turned on. But Gray discovers that she self-harmes and demands that she never do so again. And then they start a more overtly BDSM kind of arrangement with Gray as the Dom and Lee is the up. Gray's has like really uncomfortable with the amount of vulnerability he starts showing her so he forces himself to end the arrangement and he fires

Lee who's devastated and then agrees to marry this dweeb that she's been dating but then she shows up in her wedding dress and Lee professes her love for him and then he agrees to, she agrees to attest and then he forces her to wear the dress for sitting for a while but then he returns

and then they he tenderly cares for her and they live happily ever after in spank trimony You've long gone past time But I wanted to hear I wanted to hear you finish it Yes I'm glad you we got to

Got to the word spank trimony Though I would have hated to have cut you off Before that point Yeah What a sweet movie What of what? What a sweet movie It's very tender ultimately

Okay Not to like reduce this to like Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Down but like where were you on secretary Thumbs Up Thumbs Up? Oh thumbs up Interesting I don't know if I would necessarily say

I was thumbs up on this movie. It's a dated movie, I think, like, there's this weird undercurrent I wasn't expecting that's, like, very sundancy. It's very sundancy. It's very sundancy. It, like, gets to the edge of being, like, quirky and quaint, but I don't think fully goes there. So when we say something like Sundancey, though, I think it's probably valuable to sort of describe what we're saying, because I don't know.

necessarily if we're maybe even saying the same thing. And I think when people describe something as being very Sundance, there are a few things that I think they're maybe talking about. I, the Sundanciness that I find in this movie is a lot of, especially early 2000 Sundance or late 98, this reminded me a little bit of this was a movie that felt like it had seen the opposite of sex. And this was a movie that had seen like a lot of those sort of like, um, Like, late 90s, John Waters movies. I thought you were going to say that this was a movie that seemed like a Miranda July movie.

Oh, I don't know if I necessarily saw that, but now that you say that, I figured when you didn't like this, I was like, that's why Joe doesn't like it. I came around to it more than I was going to. It really put itself behind the eight ball with me. I really did not. I, this is not the kind of movie that I do super well with, where it, it sort of front loads these kind of taboo subjects and to me asks for a lot of credit just for being about what it's about. And to me, the way that it framed her self-harm at the beginning and then

kind of connected that to the BDSM later on in the movie. And to me, like the revelation when she pulls out her box and it's sort of, you have these, like, harsh close-ups on, like, all of the, all of her cutting instruments. And it felt a little like, oh, like, we're going to, we're breaking taboos. Now we're going to be, you know, showing somebody going through, and she's cutting herself. And it felt a little, um, glib on that subject. It's definitely dated. I'm not sure, if I agree on the whole like self-awareness about the taboo on a certain level I feel like the movie's kind of offhand

about some of its taboo things as much as like this kind of dark comedy in the early 2000s would be yeah I mean again I sort of go back to the fact that like this just I just I don't do super well with these movies where

I'm gonna have a very hard time articulating myself I think with this movie because ultimately what I don't want to do is see this movie and just be like well that was unpleasant to watch and so I didn't watch I didn't like it and of course with a dark comedy like this there is a challenge inherent in the movie of we are going to make you fall in love with this sort of unpleasant love between this guy who, like, makes this woman piss herself at his

desk in her wedding dress to show her devotion to him. And for us at the end to be like, guys, that's real love, you know, kind of thing. But I think it's, there's more going on than that. But like, okay, do you, are you saying? That's why I'm saying I don't want to, I don't want to reduce it. Right, right, right. And yet, I do feel like there is a, there is a part of, of this film, as it is written and directed, that puts a lot of onus on that. Okay. Are you saying you also think, like, the darker subject matter is handled inappropriately or, like, disrespectfully? No, I don't know if I would say that.

I don't, especially... Because I had a complicated relationship with that, where I'm, like, sitting with it, and I'm like, okay, but... On a certain level, is it being irresponsible with some of the, like, self-harm stuff? And I'm not sure that I think it is. That's where I came the closest. Certainly not by, like, a 2002 standard. I think maybe, like, this movie wouldn't, like, 100% fly today and, like, could do some stuff better. But, like, it just feels to me a little, again, proud of itself.

and, like, for being, for talking about this girl cutting herself in this darkly comedic tone. And I feel like you've got to do that really well. I think you've got to do that really precisely. And I think Maggie Gyllenhaal is doing an incredible job with that. But the tone... Yeah, the movie has the performance to thank, I think, for a lot of what it does. pull off but I don't know and again I am you know very willing to let other people sort of speak from experience and maybe people who have more of an experience in like mental health fields or

you know have experience with with some of the issues that get talked about in the movie maybe they see the movie and it's refreshing for them for it to feel a little less heavy handed or whatever. And I'm absolutely willing to allow for that. This is why, again, I don't do super well with a movie like this because I generally don't want to make proclamations about things like this was a movie about a subject matter that made me uncomfortable, more so the self-harm than the dom-sub stuff. The Dom-sub stuff. Like, I'm a person living in 2021. Well, the Dom-sub stuff, I think it pulls off really well and does, like, I don't want to say, humanized to suggest that like you know but like it could very easily be like this you know

spectacle like dehumanizing like well it does begin that way i think the fact that it starts with her a flash forward to her you know in with the the bar along her arms and like carrying the the letter like it knows that you're going to be shocked right and then it's just like let's you know, now we'll rewind and explain how this came to be. And so there is, I think the movie is depending on a level of shock in their audience. And I think that's the sun-danciness that I keep coming back to is, you know, bet you didn't think you would be watching this on a, you know, Sunday afternoon in the mountains. And, um, I don't know. There was a little, I do think that the BDSM, like, relationship, it does a good job of like,

talking on a human level about how that relationship, a relationship such as that could be fulfilling, you know, all parts involved, um, everybody on a consent level with the arrangement. And it'd be a fulfilling relationship for somebody. Um, in a way that didn't feel instructive. Like, I didn't feel like, you know, not to say like, it felt like it didn't feel like it didn't feel like it. an issue movie where it was like, you know, people who like this can be people too. No, I didn't feel like it was like that, but it did, you know, paint a good picture of how that can work for the good of someone. I also think I end up liking this movie a lot more if any of the other characters who are not Maggie Gillen Hall and James Spader are written with any kind of depth or interesting. I don't know how you waste Leslie and Warren in a movie, but it's a real bummer that that character just really amounts to nothing. They have, she's got these sisters, and her father is an alcoholic, and even Jeremy

Davies, I think, comes the closest to being an actual character. Well, it's Jeremy Davies. Because he's Jeremy Davies. But I think that this is a movie that really underwrites all of its other characters to the detriment of the movie, because even though this is mostly a two-hander, I think if you're going to be that sort of shallow in all these other characters, then don't introduce them. She didn't need sisters.

I think it should either be more of a two-hander or the other characters should be written better. Right, exactly. That's exactly my thing. And so that kind of soured me a little bit on it. And I didn't hate this movie. I think by the end it was a stronger movie than I was waiting for it. But I think the fact that this movie boiled down to Maggie Gyllenhaal's performance as a contender and nothing else as a contender felt right to me. Right, because, like, I do think so much of the success of the movie is placed on her shoulder.

I do also think Spader is really good in this movie, too. I mean, like, it's a spader we're very familiar with. It's like, it makes complete sense that James Spader was cast in this role. Like, it outright, you know, recalls Crash at one point. The shot where, you know, he can see her, like, Band-Aids on the back of her leg is very much the Rosanna-Arquette vagina leg shot in Crash. I didn't think about that, but you are. entirely right. It's funny to think of,

we don't think of James Spader in this mode anymore, and weirdly, I feel like Secretary was kind of the bookend of this sort of version of James Spader. It's interesting, he didn't make very many movies at all after this one, like between Secretary and then Lincoln, which is 10 years later, he only makes four movies and you have not heard of a single one of them. They're titles like Shadow of Fear, Alien Hunter, Eyewitness.

These are like direct to cable movies, direct to video movies. And I think he ended up doing a lot of television after this, which like, you know, good for him. But Secretary comes at the end of an era where people do kind of forget this like post less than zero, post Pretty and Pink era, where James Spader was doing a lot of, like, erotic thriller stuff. And, or these sort of, like, dark roles. And, like, Sex Lives and Videotape is obviously the most prominent when you talk about, like, indie film. Like, it's such an important movie in the history of indie film. But, like, there's stuff, like, Bad Influence, the Curtis Hansen movie, Bad Influence, where he's,

sort of on the again, he is one of the great blockbuster video video cover actors of all time. Yeah, where he's like making out with somebody on the cover. Bad influence, he's sort of like embracing this woman in a backless

garment. White Palace, the movie he's in with Susan Sarandon where like the famously like burned into my brain from Blockbuster video is the video cover where he's like kissing her decoletage and she She's sort of like, excuse me, and she's sort of head back in ecstasy.

Never has experienced anything more pleasurable than, you know, James Spader kissing her sternum. Right. There's a video box cover of a movie called Dream Lover with him and Manchin Amic from Twin Peaks. And then, as you mentioned, Crash is... Masterpiece. masterpiece of this exact kind of movie, though. It's like, it takes the idea of an erotic thriller and it's just like, but what about also automobile crashes? What about what about deep

wounds, you know, and that kind of all went away in the 2000s and secretary was almost like a career achievement award for James Bader. We're being like to cap this era of your career where you just did so many of these erotic thrillers, we are going to have you. you play, like, we're going to have your age be kind of important in this movie. He's not playing an old man, but I think the age difference between him and Maggie Gyllenhaal is a significant part of this movie. And it's also wild to me that he's Mr. Gray, which I don't think 50 Shades of gray is an homage to that because 50 Shades of Grey is about fucking Twilight.

So it's kind of a crazy coincidence. But definitely she, like, watched Secretary on Twiard on, on, not on twilight she definitely watched it on like showtime or the sundance channel but i feel like it was a subconscious thing at best because i don't think i don't think in any of the stuff we heard about 50 shades of gray that that series started as outright narrative theft like she does not have new ideas it right what i'm saying is a better movie about bdSM relationships than anything in 50 shades of gray i don't disagree with you although 50 shades of gray at least gives you supporting characters who are off the chain.

Like, at least, like, what 50 Shades does with Marsha Gay-Harden is what I wanted a little bit for Leslie and Warren, just that kind of consideration. Right, right, right, right. So what you're saying is Secretary needed Rita ORA? I mean, every movie kind of needs Rita O'R, but yes, yes. How old would have Rita O'R even been in 2002? Oh, no. Just, like, school-age, Rita O'R just, like, sort of, like, traipsing through a scene and just

sort of, like, totally unbothered. And just like, who is that little girl? She will one day grow up to be Rita Orra. And you're like, who? And you're like, exactly. It's like a cute little girl wandering through a scene that's like, I actually have a really big hit in Japan. And just like, who?

And she's like, never mind. She's like, I meant Croatia. So, all right, let's get the Aaron Cressida-Wilson stuff out of the way. because this is weirdly our third movie that is written by Aaron Cressid Wilson. She, based on the movies that we have covered, that she has written, and she's a real interesting, it's interesting that she gets, you know, she's got a whole bunch of movies, like, on the way, which is funny to me, because her last two... And they're like Disney movies.

Her last two screenplay credits. Well, Disney movies and then also the indecent proposal remake. Which is never going to happen. I mean, I feel like Indecent Proposal is a movie that is frozen in time and probably should stay there, but like should be revisited constantly. Like we should never ever forget the era of Indecent Proposal because as we've talked about, I'm sure I've talked about this on this podcast before. Just what a wild-ass movie that was. I think part of the appeal of Indecent Proposal is that by today's standards, you're just like, he only offers them a million dollars. and I'm just like, exactly, that's what's amazing about it, is you go back now, and it's just like for one million dollars, which is like, well, that's not a lot of money, but you're like, but, you know, I'm a real person.

It's not, fuck you money. Right, exactly, yeah, yes. So it's part of the appeal of just like the, what would you do? Anyway, her last two screenplay credits, or major screenplay credits, at least, as I'm looking at her on Wikipedia, are movies that we have covered and not in a complimentary fashion. And she did the script for men, women, and children. I want to see if these were solo screenplay credits or not. Men, women, and children, she is credited along with Jason Reitman for that screenplay. And then The Girl on the Train, she is the lone screenplay credit on that, based on the novel, obviously.

But not good movies. This is definitely, without question, the best movie of hers that we've done. Definitely not the last movie of hers that we will do. You're guaranteeing the listeners that we're going to do for an imaginary portrait of Dion Arbus. We've talked about fur for a long time, and I have never seen it. Nor have I. Wow. All right, another one, another first time for us.

She also, I should mention the Adam Agoyan movie Chloe, the sex thriller with Julianne Moore and Liam Neeson and Amanda Seifred. The levels of which, that is the ultimate. movie is such is it good or do I just want people like is it good or did I just

enjoy watching it and want other people Oh it is enjoyable trash but it is soggy It's trash yes Wet trash bag

condensation of a movie I've said on this podcast before that when I win the lottery and do my dream of opening a movie

theater that I operate as a loss for the rest of my life I will be co-programming Chloe and Greta together forever.

Like there will be just one screen that just like every day shows a double feature of Chloe and then Greta. I actually think the movies you should program together are Chloe and Brian De Palma's passion. Please tell me you've seen it. Uh, yes. That movie is...

The three of them. The three of them together. Because they're all one-word titles. I like the idea that Chloe and Greta are both one-word titles that are women's names. And they should exist in the same world. Like, it's the same, it's the same Vancouver, even though, even though Greta is like Vancouver as New York. Wait, what if when I opened a movie theater, it's like four screens, and one room is the Vancouver room, and one room is the Toronto room.

You know what I mean? Just like, and that's what gets played in there is, and it's like, and inside you sort of have like Vancouver, Kutra Mountain, whatever. And then you have an Atlanta that's like, you know, Marvel movies and, you know, so that we can, you know, make money. And then one is just like Los Angeles as a character. And it's just like, okay, all right, fine. People love Los Angeles as a character. That's fine. But so, yeah, this film is based off of a short story.

So again, this is not sort of something, an original. Aaron Cressid Wilson, but like, there is a, the kind of connective tissue between secretary and Chloe, and we can't really speak to fur because we haven't seen it, but what we do know of fur is that there is this like unusual sexual attraction, right? Whereas Nicole Kidman. I thought there was like weird sex scenes in that movie. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's just like he's like Robert Donny Jr. is, you know, covered in fur and she's attracted to that. And so yeah, like I think there is, the early part of her career is very sort of like

quirky sex movie thing. And then she just, in these last couple with men, women, and children, girl on the train, that kind of goes away and in place of it is badness? I'm like, I feel like, what's the through line

between those two movies? Except it's just like they're just bad. So yeah, what does she have coming up? I want to see. She's got something, like I said, the forever in production, Indecent Proposal. Who do you want cast in an indecent proposal remake? Well, I need to actually see the original. I can't give, like, I'm pretty sure this is not my original idea that I'm sort of gloming on. I think my friend Slade Somer told this to me, and it's been embedded in my head for years,

that, like, an indecent proposal remake should be a gay remake. And that's the sort of intrigue of it, is that it's, is that like everyone's gay? Or it's just like, you and a heterosexual couple will have sex with me, straight man. That is one angle to it. Or it's just a full, like, I guess it's two very different movies, right? If it's a gay man with money who wants to pay a woman. a million dollars to let him sleep with her I can't wait for the

take cycle exactly it would burn the take cycle down and in that way I would be living but there's also the version of it where it's you know older gay man and a younger gay couple but I think that movie just ends with a threesome minute's a 30 minute short because it's just like it's just like bingo bango it's just like yes we'll take

that money and we will both have sex with you and what I think that the the conflict in a gay indecent proposal would be is the guy offers the couple a million dollars to have sex with just one of you. And the conflict then is the two of them spend the entire movie getting resentful of each other over why it can't be the both of them and which one is it going to be. And then, and that's your, that's your conflict. Again, can't wait for the take cycle.

I feel like maybe indecent proposal remake is just like gender swapped, right? Yes. Oh, yes. I'm pretty sure that is the, when they announced the idea of a remake that it would be gender swapped, which like, that's me... I feel like that is basically just forgotten Renee Zellweger television vehicle. What if? Yes. Yes. Yes. But she was stellar on that show, so... Yes. I think, again, this is why I think indecent proposal ultimately shouldn't be remade, because I think the sexual apolitical. of it are so in the 90s and and putting it into the 2020s, even with a heterosexual indecent proposal, it is just, the solution is just, we'll just have a threesome in this movie's over.

Like this is, that's just the end of it. And I think there is a, or it's like, you know, having an open marriage is not the most threatening. Right. This is what I mean. Sort of the taboos of the early 90s are what make that movie. Yeah. Yes. Anyway, um, let's not get too far down the line before we... Let's have our Maggie Gyllenhaal talk. She's so good in this movie. It's one of the more, like, incredibly well-deserved breakthrough performances where it's just like, yeah, well, obviously, like, obviously this made her into, you know, something.

And I'm trying to think of, like, where she was at this point, because, like, she had done... She had been in some movies. Cecil B. Demented. Right. Which is actually a more prominent role than I'd expected when I'd watched that movie this year. Well, and the story of her and Jake, obviously, is their parents are writer, filmmaker, right? Their mother's a screenwriter and their father was a director, I believe, was the parentage of them. Naomi Throneur Gillenhall and Stephen Gillenhall.

Stephen Gillenhall directed, among other things, that movie A Dangerous Woman with Deborah Winger. which actually... One of them did Losing Isaiah, right? He did, I'm pretty sure. And I wonder if... Yeah, and Naomi did the screenplay for that. So it was a very sort of like Charles Shire, Nancy Myers, Division of Duties.

Yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, losing Isaiah, a movie that we could probably do. It's one of those things where I don't remember specific Oscar Buzz, but, like, probably it did. I totally watched that movie as a child. What a weird movie to watch. as a child. I mean, especially, like, melodramas and stuff, I'm like, I probably shouldn't have watched

that movie, but my parents were watching it, and I watched it, too. Right. Maggie also, by the way, appears in a dangerous woman, so both Maggie and Jake are in that movie. You're right, Cecil B. Demented comes in 2000. She has a role in that. That's a John Waters movie. And then Donnie Darko becomes this cult hit for her brother for Jake. Yeah, I feel like listeners are like, she was in Donnie Darko.

the year before, and people forget that Donnie Darko took time to take on. It was a slow burn. And also, and like, she plays his sister and Donnie Darko, but mostly, and she's actually really good, that one scene at the dinner table where they're sort of snipping

and fighting in a very sort of teenager way. I'm voting for Dukakis. That's an amazing line, and also how exactly does one suck a fuck is also a great line from that scene. But she's mostly, I think when Donnie Darko

becomes what it becomes, she's kind of an item on the things you may not have known about Donny Darko. And it's like, this plot thing, this plot thing, this plot thing, also like the girl who plays Donnie's sister is Jake Gyllenhaal's real-life sister. That same year in 2001, she was in a movie we have covered on this when we had

the illustrious Bowen Yang as our guest riding in cars with boys. She is the, she's Britney Murphy's grown-up daughter, who, ends up in a relationship with Drew Barrymore's grown-up son. And so she's sort of in the outskirts of that. And then, so she was like, Secretary broke her through, like at Sundance in very early 2002. So Donnie Darko, right, had not become the phenomenon that had become yet. It

had released very quietly in fall of 2001. And riding in cars with boys was a disappointment. So Secretary was definitely the thing that broke her out. And she also then, in 2002, Which I think the other movies that she's in in 2002, like, contributed to, like, a lot of the critics prizes that she's getting, even though they're not combined together, but it's just, like, the feeling of an actor having a moment, you know? Right. They weren't awarding her for being in 40 Days and 40 Nights. The Josh Hartnett can't have sex. Cut the poster for 40 days and 40 nights is so true. We're dancing around so much Shannon Sossaman talk.

That's a good point. How can we bring up Shannon Sossaman in every episode moving forward? Wait, the plot, I don't even know who Maggie even plays in that movie. Shannon Sossaman is the lead love interest of 40 Days 49, right? She is. No, you're absolutely right. But the plot of that movie is that Josh Hartnett through like reasons, weird rom-com reasons, makes a vow that he's not going to have sex or jerk off for the 40 Days of Lent. And so the poster of this movie is...

The original no, not November. Yes, exactly. That's exactly what it is, November plus. He's lying on his back, like, at the bottom of the poster, like, hands behind his head, sort of like in recline, looking up. And the title of the movie and the credit block are in one sort of like slender, like skyscraper formation going right up from his crotch. It's literally just like the title and the credit block are this giant boner of his on the poster. It's so juvenile. Charming.

I hate how much it makes me laugh every time I see it because it's so dumb. She's also in adaptation, which is the best of the movies that she's in in 2002. She's playing Donald Kaufman's girlfriend in that one. And she's sort of very much on board. I feel like, as I recall, I haven't seen adaptation in a while. Isn't she basically playing finger quotes Maggie Gyllenhaal in that? Like, she is, like, doesn't she play, like, an actress? She plays an actress.

She has, like, an actual, like, character. She's not, like, some people in that movie do play themselves, right? Doesn't Catherine Keener play herself in that movie? Quite possibly. It's been a while since I've seen it, but I do love that movie. Yeah. I just remember her from the scene where he's explaining the plot of his movie about how there's a, there's a car chase with somebody on horseback, and, like, technology versus horse.

What a great movie. And then she's also in another Charlie Kaufman scripted movie. She's in Confessions of a Dangerous Mind. Although, as with everybody in that movie, like, it's Sam Rockwell. Like, George Clooney plays the, like, whatever, the CIA guy. And then everybody else is some degree of, like, cameo plus in that movie, where, like, Julia Roberts shows up and she's got a role for, like, a second. I guess Drew Barrymore as his love interest. Julie Roberts is also a love interest, but she's like the spy against him, and I think he has to kill her.

I really got to see that movie again. It is having a anniversary year this year. Maybe I should watch it and make the case, which feels more and more may be true that Confessions of a Dangerous Mind is the best George Clooney directed movie. I think that's probably going to be true. I mean, Good Night and Good Luck is a solid movie. Like, that is, I think just because it's such a meat and potatoes Oscar player that I think maybe we underrate it a little bit. But, like, certainly those are the two good George Clooney movies. Good Night and Good Luck is a movie that, like, when it comes up in conversation, I always ask myself,

what is the narrative arc of that movie and truly for the life of me I cannot remember? I mean, yes. I just remember that as, like, kind of a vibes movie. It is. I mean, it captures a certain tone and mood. There's plot with McCarthy. McCarthy's going after, you know, what the hell? What the hell is the guy's name? Edward Armourow.

Edward Armourow, thank you. And, of course, it's all basically about our George W. Bush outrage. Yes, yes, very much so. But, yeah, that movie I maybe owe a rewatch as well. This episode is giving me a lot of things from early, 2000s that I want to rewatch again. But so the thing that I want to talk about about Maggie Gyllenhaal that's so interesting is she has this incredible breakthrough year, like actresses like Jessica Chastain, let's say, have had, or Julianne Moore had in the late 90s. And those

actresses go on from those to sort of ever-increasing higher profile, major roles, lead roles, Oscar nominations, whatever. And Maggie Gyllenhaal's career does not really go that way. She stays in a kind of middle range of indies. Every once in a while, she'll get a lead in an indie like Sherry Baby, where she gets a Golden Globe nomination for. Or Mona Lisa Smile or World Trade Center. Well, but those are, I think, kind of different things. We're like, Mona Lisa Smile, it's a bigger movie, but she's, like, fourth lead.

And World Trade Center, it's a, I had ambitions to be a bigger movie. And she's, you know, love interest. She's Michael Pena's Agrieved wife, yes. Yes. She's the love interest in stranger than fiction. She, I think the sort of- He gets blown up in the dark night.

Well, right, that's the thing. It's like, the dark night. She replaces Katie Holmes. And, like, the dark night is, like, the most high profile. If you've, like, that's the movie that you're regular person. If you show them a photo of Maggie Gyllenhaal, that's the movie they'll recognize her from. But she ends up excelling in these sort of smaller movies like Sherry Baby. She's so good in happy endings, which.

kind of nobody besides our weird little, like, circle of gay Oscar folk, like, watched, actually. She's great in that movie. She sings multiple Billy Joel songs. That's the thing. If you want to see Maggie Gillen Hall singing multiple Billy Joel songs, run, don't walk to happy endings. Also, you'll get to see Jesse Bradford in his underwear. It's a whole time. And really good Lisa Kudrow. Then 2009, the same year, by the way, that she is, maybe my, I have a lot of favorite supporting performances in a way we go, but she is a fucking scream in a way we go playing this like college professor hippie mom refuses to use a stroller, you know, practice his family bed.

I feel like I'm pushing him away. And she becomes this like complete monster through just like the course of 10 minutes of film. Like she's not in that movie very much, but she makes such an impression. She's so funny. That's the same year she's in Crazy Heart and gets this incredibly improbable, I would say, Oscar nomination that kind of came out of nowhere and then it kind of did but like it is while that is an Oscar nomination that is incredibly like because it's the only one she has it's just like well that's a bummer like she deserves better than a nomination for this but she campaigned very specifically because that was a late breaking movie and it was always seen as the Jeff Bridges play but like in the window where Oscar voting was actually happening is when she really hit the pavement of, like, doing Q&As, doing interviews, doing, you know, the parties that are FYC parties, but we're not allowed to say that it's an FYC party.

Right, right. And then again, though, she, you know, pivots off of the Oscar nomination there, and you would think, well, thankless role, weird, you know, that this is her Oscar nomination, but she got it so what is that going to do for her career and the answer to that is not really much she still basically has the same career that she had before that she stars opposite viola davis and woke back down in a movie that i find to be fine but like it really got like it really stepped into the charter schools versus teachers unions yeah people who like basically called that movie propaganda exactly exactly like it really got so slammed for its, you know, advocating charter schools and you're, you know, your anti-teachers and whatever. And it's just like, y'all, it's just a movie. It's just a, you know, but I, before that happened. It's just a movie that no one saw. That's the other things. Like, nobody saw that movie. Except for me, I did, I remember see that in the theater. So I guess I was part of the

problem there. Sorry, teachers. And then it's just like, she's, you know, thankless role. in White House down. A good movie, but, like, you know. Actually, I don't know about Thankless. I think she has, she's got a couple of moments in that one. She's one of those ones where it's just like, did she get to hit a guy? Yeah, I think she's, doesn't she get, like, revealed?

If Maggie Gyllenhaal punches a guy, I will finally watch this movie. That'll be the thing to get me to watch it. When you talk about her, like, post-Oscar nomination roles, two that jump out to me. And I don't know if they're the same for you, because I don't know if you've necessarily seen both of these. The television miniseries, honorable woman, where she's, frick, she rules. It's my favorite thing she's ever done as an

actress. She's so incredibly good in it. She's, it capitalizes on one kind of attribute of hers that's really good, where she has this like instant gravitas to her, where she can really, she commands, I think that plays into a lot of why she makes a ton of sense as a director is, it's so funny to me that people would be like, weird, Maggie Jelenhall's directing movies, just like, no, that makes total sense to me. Yeah, I've always thought that made sense. So much of her screen presence is this kind of just like absolute instant gravitas. She's a baroness in London and gets caught up in all of this kind of international intrigue.

It's an incredible miniseries. I'm pretty sure it was BBC America, but you can find it somewhere. It's on HBO Max now because I've been meaning to watch it. Oh. Who has the time? And then, speaking of Sundance, then. She has another Sundance hit in 2018 with the kindergarten teacher, which capitalizes, I think, on the other more like secretary side of Maggie Gyllenhaal, which is a woman who is way weirder than you would think she would be on the surface. And in the kindergarten teacher, it's dealt with in this very sort of like empathetic way. She projects a lot onto this gifted kid. And then she just sort of like she takes it too far.

She ends up, you know, abducting this child because she sort of mentally becomes obsessed with this idea of this kid as basically her sort of, you know, salvation. And she's super unsettling, but like really, really fantastic. She's fantastic in that movie. That movie was like the C tier for Netflix's. awards play that year. So, like, that thing got buried. Yes. 2018, was that also the year they buried the Catherine Hahn, Tamara Jenkins movie?

Yes, and that was even, like, their B tier of stuff. Private life or private lives? Private life, right? Private life. Yeah. This is also when Maggie Gyllenhaal is doing the deuce, which I have not seen. I haven't finished because, like, Like, nobody was excited about that show.

But, like, if there's anything to be excited about on the Duce, Maggie Gyllenhauls rules on that show. I feel like the Duce got a little bit of a group of support for, I think there was a while there where people were like, you're missing out. People were, the line was like, look, I know why you're not watching the Duce. Right. But maybe you should. But you're missing out on a great Maggie performance. Yes, exactly, exactly. And then she did a bunch of, in all of this time, she did a bunch of theater stuff.

She was on, I believe that production of the real thing was on Broadway, right, in 2014? Does not ring a bell, but possible. I'm pretty sure. Let me see, 2014 production. Yeah, Ewan McGregor, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Josh Hamilton, who played her husband in Away We Go, and Cynthia Nixon in the real thing. Which I've never seen. I've never seen any... Cynthia Nixon, who was in the original production when she was a teenager.

Yes, yes. It's a Tom Stopper play. I have not seen it, but it is pretty well regarded, I feel like, among his stuff, particularly. She was in, obviously, she was in a Three Sisters, because, like, it feels like destined by the universe that Maggie Gillen Hall would have performed in a Three Sisters production. Ditto with, she was in an Uncle Vanya, both of the. he's a classic stage company and oh one of the things we should have said at the very beginning

because before Secretary, before Donnie Darko, she was in a production of Closer playing the the role that Alice. Alice. Yes. Opposite Rebecca de Mornay

as Anna in... Oh wow. This was in Berkeley Rep in 2000. So, yeah. Maggie Gyllenhaal, Rebecca DeMorne, this does not say he or who played the male roles. But, like, imagine being able to say that into, you know, that just this random production of Closer in 2000 that you saw Maggie Jillen Hall and Rebecca DeMorne. That's pretty rad.

This is how I am now increasingly able to brag on the fact that I saw Bring It on the musical on Broadway, which star-Irana DeBose. Ariana DeBose and Adrian Warren. and I'm just like, that's, that's, that get, that brag gets better and better every year. I said if we can get, uh, Taylor Louderman to come back to evil and get an Emmy, uh, for that role as the social media influencer on evil, I was like, it'll be a real triple crown if we could get, you know, uh, more and more, more and more alums of bringing home the musical should be able to reap awards and let me brag on them a little bit more.

So, yeah, Maggie Gyllenhaal's career is, I think, I don't know if I like a Maggie Gillenhall career that goes bigger than what it has been. Well, going bigger for her is directing now. That's what I mean. I'm glad that that's the direction that's the way. I think her career is going to become even more fascinating, especially if she's making movies like The Lost Daughter. Like, I'm, it was the type of debut movie that I'm incredibly excited to.

to see whatever the next thing is because it could conceivably be anything. Anything we would actually want to see because it's not like Maggie Gyllenhaal is going to go and make a Marvel movie. No. Like a lot of other breakthrough directors. Maggie Gillenhall is going to keep

making a movie out of like the novel that she read last year that fascinated her. And that's what I want. Yes. That works. That works for me. So, 2002, though, her performance in secretary

is like, again, super lauded, comes out of Sundance. It's not the Sundance sensation, but it was highly regarded. And so it ends up... Got an originality prize when they still gave those out. I love that, by the way. The Sundance originality prize. I mean, like, is this movie all that original, though? Even for 2000, I would say maybe that's not the word you're looking for, but I understand the sentiment.

that you are trying to achieve. It's more like an audacity prize, probably. I think that's probably right. Because it's not the audacity of, like, the sex that's on screen, but that it's ultimately, you know, one that is very tender in this type of thing. That's actually ultimately a very sweet movie. It's the kind of thing that, like, I know, I believe the Spirit Awards do this, and I also think the NBR does this as well,

this sort of like freedom of expression award, which is just essentially like a film about a subject matter that we think is kind of outrageous, right? Well, a National Board of Review is now basically like the other documentary we didn't give a prize to. Right. Right. Did NBR give anything to the Lost Daughter this year? I would believe that they did, but let me look that up. It's got to be in their like top 10. I would imagine so. All right. Let's see. Lost Daughter does not show up on NBR's page at all, which is wild. Oh, right, because Netflix didn't do very well with them. Yeah.

Although Don't Look Up did end up on their top ten list. Unwell. Super weird. Still haven't seen it. I can't say for sure. I cannot say that I think you will like it. Everything that I've seen where people are just like, it's so long and it's so unbearable and it's so smug, and I'm just like...

I kind of feel like it's actually going to make you angry. I mean, I bet it will. If nothing else, to waste a big starry ensemble like that is going to piss me off. I will say Jennifer Lawrence has a recurring joke that worked for me. I mean, you know, I want Jennifer Lawrence to be back on top. I don't know why this was the movie. And now all of a sudden, somebody said on Twitter recently, is just like, is Adam McKay just going to become the new David O. Russell for Jennifer Lawrence?

And I'm like, maybe that wouldn't be so great. Maybe she can, I don't know. Again, Maggie Gyllenhaal should be the new David O. Russell for Jennifer Lawrence. I would watch that movie. I would absolutely watch that movie. All right. So let's talk about specifically, though, the 2002 Best Actives Race, because we, again, she's super acclaimed for secretary. It's the Definitely seventh place. I was going to say this is one of those years where we always talk about what years would we want to see the vote totals and whatnot. This year, I don't think there's any doubt how the vote totals went. The five nominees in Best Actress in 2002 end up being Nicole Kidman in The Hours, Julianne Moore in Far from Heaven, Salma Hayek and Frida, Diane Lane in Unfaithful, and Renee Zell Weger in Chicago.

Kidman ends up winning the Oscar after it seemed for. a little bit like Julianne, well, the critics prizes, so let's sort of like go chrono. Early in the season, it felt like it was Julianne Moore, and then as like it was getting after the Oscar nominations happened and like Far From Heaven was a

movie that like, you know, it was clear the divide between the way the Academy liked that movie and the way critics like that movie felt like Julianne Moore was not going to win for that. Also, during the Critics Awards phase, I think everybody kind of expected Julianne Moore was going to sweep

and who ends up winning New York Film Critics and National Society of Film Critics is Diane Lane, which I think then sort of maybe puts a little bit of a dent into Julianne Moore's inevitability. And then the fact that I think... But also seals that nomination for Diane Lane as well. Well, and that was a thing that I remember being among Oscar prognosticators that year. And it was a big point of contention because a lot of people were like, you're lying to yourselves about Diane Lane. She was an early season.

Her movie was early in the season. It has no other Oscar tendrils to it. Like, Unfaithful was not being campaigned in any other categories. It's, you know... That's also the type of nomination that I think people always underestimate that it's like, this is somebody who has worked with everyone in the industry and they are going to get voted for. That's like an Octavia Spencer. It's a Damien Boshy.

year. Who is it this year that people are like, I don't know about that person. I'm like, they've worked with everybody. They're getting nominated. And it's like their, why am I blanking on this? But there is somebody like that this year. Yeah. All right. Wait. We're going to, I'll mention if it, if it comes back to me. I think, I think it will. But yeah, I think you're right. I think people underestimate just how thrilled people were at the time that Diane Lane finally got this role that really let her shine and let her get all this great respect. And so she and Julianne Moore are sort of sharing the critical adulation. Nicole Kidman in The Hours sort of somewhat quickly, once people saw that movie, kind of rose to the top of the heap

in terms of what was going to get nominated for that movie. Because there was a while there where people thought she might be contending and supporting. And ultimately, because of, I think largely because of the fact that Julianne Moore had a lead campaign for another movie, the decision was made to campaign Julian Moore in supporting for the hours and then campaign Nicole and Merrill in lead for that movie. And a lot of people thought that they would both get nominated and that either Salma Hayek or Diane Lane would sort of fall by the wayside. Because once Chicago became the frontrunner, Renee was sort of, you know, solid gold for a nomination for that. Well, and when she won SAG, too, it... Yes. Oh, by that time, for sure. In terms of the win.

By that time, it was, like, definite. But, go ahead. The weird, like, I don't even know what the, like, Venn diagram of, like, how, because Julianne Moore had two, but Meryl also had two that season. And, like, the way that that all played into who was campaigned. Oh, two movies. Yes, sorry. I think we were talking about critics' prizes. Yes.

Oh, no, no, no, no. way that that played into who was campaigned in each category, who eventually got certain nominations, and who it benefited ultimately, I think, in the win. Because, like, you could just, like, throw all those dice in another cup, shake it up, and it would roll out a different way. Right. There's a way you view adaptation where Merrill is a co-lead in adaptation. There is a way that you could fudge any one of the hours women into supporting, even though I, strongly of the opinion that they're all leads and this is this is partly why like category confusion conversations drive me crazy is like people want to act like it's so horrible now when it's like I remember people going off and like counting the amount of screen time that each one have and people being outlandish because Nicole Kidman has like clearly the least screen time of the three and like it's just like calm down it's so funny that you that you hate the conversation for that reason why I love the conversation for that reason, because I do feel like you can go back into any year and you can...

Well, that was when it was more fun. Like, now it's not fun, and it's just the most annoying conversation. I have fun. When I'm talking about it, it's fun. So, um... When I talk about it, it's okay. When I do it, it's good. Um, but so I think Merrill in the hours ends up being odd man. for a lot of reasons. Probably sixth place. Not even probably. Like, definitely sixth place. We've talked about this ad nauseum.

I think she gives the best performance in the hours. I don't think that's a slate on anybody else. It's my favorite Meryl Street performance of all time. It's a bummer that she got left out, but like she still got the adaptation nomination and supporting. So like, it was fine. I'm sure she was fine. Nicole ends up winning the Oscar.

Like, yes, I think Merrill is absolutely in sixth place. And those six were, that was, that was the field for, from, like, the fall onward. And so, as we said, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Isabel Huper, and, like, kind of that was it hanging around the, like, I would even say with those, with the, like, critical recognition, Isabel Luper was probably 20th place. Like, first of all, distribution for that movie, it would have come out. out stateside in, like, January or February of O2, but, like, also, you pair this movie, you pair the piano teacher up with secretary, and it's like, yeah, by comparison, of course,

secretary is going to get a little bit more, uh, embraced because it's the sweeter movie, but also, like, the piano teacher had no distribution. Like, here's what I will say, though. Um, I think by the time you get to talking about who, who was seventh or eighth in the balloting, you're talking about pockets of fervor within a larger group that's too big for that pocket to make a difference. But I think the fact that Huper was runner-up to Julianne Moore at Los Angeles Film Critics,

which Los Angeles Film Critics are the one critical organization that there's no overlap with Oscar voting, but there is a little bit of the waters that they are sampling from are adjacent to the waters that the academy, you know what I mean? Like the conversation that goes on in Los Angeles and the enthusiasms that happen in Los Angeles around Oscar time are more... Yeah, I mean, like, I understand what you're saying, but like, you know, you know how I feel about her as a performer, you know how I feel about that performance and that

movie, but like, even so, like, I mean, like, probably Catherine Zeta Jones got more best actress bids than she did. This whole, like, I think probably, like, there's at least one person in that sixth to tenth place of these performances we've talked about that could have been put in either. That, like, Julie and Moore probably was there. Let's play a little bit of a game then. Okay. And I'm just going to run down the list. So you say, Captain Zeta Jones in Chicago, who ends up winning, supporting, you're saying she probably got more votes for best actress than Isabelle Huper.

Yes. Golden Globe nominee in musical or comedy, Goldie Hawn for the Banger Sisters. Do you think she got more votes than Isabella Pair? Possibly, but like that was a forgotten movie at that point? It was. Nia Vardalos, also a Golden Globe nominee for my Big Fat Greek Wedding. Do you think she got more nominees got more votes than Isabella Bear? Yes.

Kate Blanchett for the Tomtick Vermevie Heaven, which was sort of on long lists of predicted nominees early in that season, and then nobody saw that movie. But she did shave her head for it. So do you think she got more votes than Isabella Pear? No. Sigourney Weaver in the post-9-11 movie The Guys. Do you think she got more votes than Isabella Pair? No, because if nobody saw Heaven, nobody saw the guys.

Yes, exactly. Jennifer Aniston and The Good Girl, who got a little bit of a chatter for a while. Definitely got more votes than Isabella Pair. I would say she was probably eighth or ninth. If not one of these people that could have been lead or supporting. So you've got Isabelle in around 10th, 11th, 12th place, let's say. Probably lower. I mean, there's got to be other things.

But, like, I just don't think that the Academy votes for that movie. They just, it's too much for that. I mean, you're not wrong. You're not wrong in that account. But I would just say that she was. And they weren't ready to embrace who pair either. When we're talking about the conversation, she was the one who was showing up as like runner runner up at major critics awards.

And I mean, she. won in can and like had a moment from that but like a year almost like two years after a two years from when the nom or a year and a half from when the nominations happened understood understood but i'm just saying that like she was i think this is one of the cases where i'm willing to like stamp my foot down and say no the academy is not that cool listen chris file very cool academy voters not cool we have uh we've we've we've figured it out um what else do we want to talk about like the i am the mother marcos with sunglasses that's cool um this movie 4.1 million domestic box office for secretary is actually not bad for the kind of movie that's pretty great because i mean this is an early lion's gate movie which i was also like i did i looked back into it and i was like well wait was it also that like Lionsgate really wasn't an Oscar player, and that's not true. Like, they'd done gods and monsters.

They'd had international features nominated. They'd, you know. Yeah. They were... This is when they were edgy before, like, pre-Hunger games, turning them into basically a major studio. This feels like American Psycho-era Lionsgate, right? The early 2000s, right, edgy, you know, a little bit daring.

And obviously, like, American Psycho doesn't get any Oscar nominations either, but that was also on, you know, certain top 10 lists that year. And, yeah, what else about this movie? It was a Spirit Award nominee for... Spirit Award winner. Spirit Award winner, right, for screenplay. Let me bring that up one. First screenplay. Best first screenplay.

I love that. We talked about in our mailbag episode, the fact that I would like the awesome. to maybe borrow a little bit from the spirits in terms of a best first feature category. I also like that the spirits do best for screenplay. That is, again, it's a way of just honoring more movies, and first screenplay allows you to honor smaller movies. That's an interesting field. You look at Aaron Cresta Wilson beats out hysterical blindness, which ends up being an HBO movie.

It was the Mira Nair movie with a good movie. Is Jenna Rollins in that movie, right? Doesn't Jenner Rollins play her mother? Umah, Jenna Rollins, and Juliette Lewis. And Ben Gazzara also in it. Yeah, Generalins and Ben Gazzar. Probably haven't seen it since 2002, but I remember really liking it. Right.

It ended up going directly to HBO, but because it had played film festivals, it was eligible for a Spirit Award. Igby goes down. It was a nominee for Burstere's screenplay. Neil Berger, who ended up doing the Paul Giamati movie, The Illusionist, the other magician movie from 2006, that is not the prestige. got a nomination for his movie interview with The Assassin. And then the one I probably would have voted for, Heather Juergensen and Jennifer Westfeld's screenplay for Kissing Jessica Stein.

I probably would have voted for it, too. You talk about microgenres that speak directly to me. We've talked about this a little bit before, but like the Jennifer Westfeldt, New York City indie rom-com genre is like, that's friends with money. That's what I like. No, not friends with kids. Sorry, friends with money is Hollif Center. Right. Yes, friends with kids.

Although Jennifer Westfeld always feels like a sort of parallel universe cousin to Nicole Hall of Center in certain ways. But yeah, kissing Jessica Stein, Iron Abbey, friends with kids. We talked about it when we talked about Prime, because I feel like the best version of Prime would have been closer to a Jennifer Westfeld movie than anything else. but I love kissing Jessica Stein. I should watch it again soon just to get... Tova Feldschu, sensational. Also, Jennifer Westfeld's best friend in that movie is played by Jackie Hoffman,

which is a fantastic... A very pregnant Jackie Hoffman, if I'm correct. That is a movie set in New York City before I moved there that always weirdly makes me feel nostalgic for a New York City that I never actually lived in, which is exactly the vibe of those

movies that I love. What else did... It was a Best Feature Nominy at Indy Spirits, too, which, like... Speaking of Nicole Hollif Center, all nominated alongside Lovely and Amazing. The Good Girl, Far From Heaven Wins. Far from Heaven won a lot at the Spirits. Also, one best female lead, opposite Maggie Gyllenhaal's nomination. Female lead, one supporting male, one director, one best feature. Yeah, who else was in?

Oh, there was also a movie called Tully that is not obviously the show at least there on Tully, starring Julianne Nicholson that was Best Feature Nominy at the Spirits. But yeah, very strong best female lead category that year. Like, really incredibly strong, actually. It reminds me that Catherine Kina for Lovely and Amazing was also on the outer, outer, outer outskirts of that best actress conversation. Like... Catherine Keener definitely got more votes than a new pair. Okay. Julian Moore, as we said, won that for Far From Heaven.

Maggie Jelen Hall for Secretary nominated. Catherine Keener for lovely and amazing. Jennifer Anderson, of course, for The Good Girl. I feel like that was the apex of her awards campaign that year was this nomination. Because she didn't get a Globe nomination in musical or comedy. I think they pushed it as a drama? I mean, it's probably the right call to do that, but also... that drama was pretty pretty stacked that year that was that was you had you know kidman and

streep in the hours frieda is there diane lane is there like it's we didn't talk about uh salma probably because when we've talked about this actress race we've talked about her before i feel yeah she campaign really really hard very hard and probably was not even fifth place in the final voting i would say that's probably oh no yes uh i think that's probably right no she put that movie on her back and and hit the road with it and who's probably responsible for not only her nomination but for the wins that it ends up getting like that's that's that's a that's your free to that's your samohyak Oscar right there fifth nominee that year at the spirits was parker posy for the rebecca miller movie personal velocity personal velocity colon three portraits where again

poster of this movie is Her, it's Farooza, Balk, right? Uh-huh, and Kira Sedgwick. Kyrsedwick, thank you. I was trying to picture it in my head. I'm just like, who are the three women on this? Okay. What else did Secretary get at that, Spirits?

Just those three. Just those three. Oh, okay, so not bad. Not a bad showing for that. Anything else we want to say about Secretary before we sort of move into the IMDB game? Secretary is an MTV Award nominee. Give it to me.

Maggie was nominated for Breakthrough Female Performance. I'm going to give you the rest of these nominees because it's like, you know, this lineup of six women, they're my inside-out emotions. They are the six four-trance of my brain. They are, okay, so Maggie Jelen Holland's secretary. Neovar Dallos for my Big Fat Greek wedding, which you would not think MTV would go for, but I'm very happy that they did. Yeah.

Kate Bosworth and Blue Crush. Wow. I'm going to qualify what I just said. Kate Bosworth is not a quadrant of my brain, but Kate Bosworth in Blue Crush. I was going to say, girl surfer movie, like, I can see that as a quadrant of your brain. Yeah. Eve and Barbershop. Wow.

Amazing. Beyonce in Goldmember. Uh-huh. And the winner, this feels, this feels, I think, unfair. but, I mean, she's nominated against a singer, so I guess it counts. It's Jennifer Garner for Daredevil. That was a big, MTV was big, big into Daredevil that year. The thing about that is like, but she'd had alias.

Oh, but I think they, I mean, in defining it specifically as breakthrough into a movie career. I guess. Which like, I mean, because that's also acting. Sure, I guess, but I mean, that's also how you get Beyoncé and Eve, but yeah. But that's singing. Sure. I'm just saying, I'm not going to get you a little petulant here, but you are. Anyway, what a cool lineup.

Secretary, I definitely liked it more than you, but I think talking about it, I think maybe what I was most taken with is the performance. but, like, the movie itself hinges so much on the performance. I think, like, the tone of it is captured in her performance, this, like, darkly comedic, actual, like, psychological darkness, plus, like, the, like, ultimately tender aspects of it, of that, like, these are two characters who don't, you know, understand how to communicate and don't receive what they need from the outside world find each other on the same wavelength and it's like ultimately

wholesome and you know whatever but it is maybe just more the two performances than the movie it's a very dated movie like dated in a way that's still watchable but you're like oh yeah this is from 20 years ago yeah this this shocked people 20 years ago in a way that I don't think it would nowadays. But yeah. We're literally, I'm watching the movie and I'm thinking of just like, you know what I liked this better in is that Netflix movie, or that Netflix show bonding with Brendan Scannell,

which is like bonding won't crack my like top 35 comedies of, you know, the year. But there's also 8 billion TV shows. I liked it maybe better in this kind of twisted year. PN movie called Dogs Don't Wear Pants that I watched at Tiff one year. That's like actual BDSM with a dominatrix and such, and it's also like kind of a dark comedy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I shouldn't be so backhanded about bonding. Bonding is actually a really good little comedy. It's just very... No one watched it. It's small and no one watched it and I really liked it. Anyway. Do you want to do the IMDB game? Yeah, guys. We end.

every episode with the IMDB game where we challenge each other to guess the top four titles that IMDB says that an actor or actress is most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. And if it takes a really long time, I'm going to Benjo over this desk and give him a spanking.

Again, again, this is why I redacted words earlier. This is what I was afraid of. It's a vibe now. It's in the room. There's a weird vibe in the room now. The vibe in the room is I intentionally wanted to make you uncomfortable. You wanted to throw me off before the IMDB game, so now I'm off my game. Oh, you're not off your game.

It'll be fine. And you know what? Then why don't I guess first then? oh all right telling me what to do Chris just bossing me around in this whole you will

you will give me the I can't I can't do it wait we have to talk about very quickly just back up the scene where she has to call him on the phone

and he has to give her permission what to eat oh the peas the four individual peas is a great touch like that is that's a good piece of business right there

it's so and as much ice cream as she wanted And the looks on the rest of her family's face, again, undeveloped characters all, but like the sort of looks of horror and disgust, as they're like, they don't know what her deal is, but like, why are you just eating four peas, you weirdo freak? Like, that was, I enjoyed that. Anyway. But she's so happy. I'm not saying they were right.

I'm just saying that their reactions to it was funny to me. Who do you have for me? well we've talked about her actually a few times already on this episode because she was part of the sort of greater best actress conversation in 2002 somehow we've never done her for the IMDB game and so I'm going to give you Jennifer Aniston oh okay so well Jennifer Aniston I do think well how much TV is on there oh my god I'm so sorry one television show Sorry, sorry. It's friends. Yes. Okay.

If it was the morning show... I kind of expected it to be two television shows, and for the morning show to be one of them. But, yes, it is not. Is Friends With Money on there? It is not. Then The Good Girl has to be. Yes, the Good Girl is. Friends with Money, as we have decided on our episode about that, our favorite Jennifer Aniston film performance.

Absolutely. No question. Yes. So fantastic. One of her bad comedies, at least, is on there. And I think We're the Millers showed up for something else, so I'm going to say We're the Millers. You are good at this game. Yes, we're the Millers.

Okay. Well, there's a lot of comedies like that, though, and I don't think that's the only one, so I'm going to say horrible bosses. I would have absolutely guessed horrible bosses. It is not horrible bosses. So that's your second strike. Your missing year is 2014. Oh, that's cake. Yes.

Yes, it is. I should have guessed cake because there's probably a lot of like... I think it's wild. She was nominated for a lot of stuff. I'm telling you, like the awards matter and the known for. Cake showing up over, I'm just going to like give the list of things. things that I think over movies that made money like bruce almighty made a bajillion dollars office space she is like hugely well known for and has like been around forever um uh people have forgotten about

office space marley and me um the breakup even um horrible bossers i'm surprised was not there mother's day i mean honestly i sure mother's day um i mean dumplin my god dumplings Dumplin. Who could forget Dumplin? Who could forget Dunplin? All right. Hit me with yours. All right. For you, another actress who was definitely not in the best actress conversation probably got

less votes than Isabella Lu Per. Oh, no. But she was an MTV Female Breakthrough Performance nominee. For you, I have chosen Kate Bosworth. Oh, I thought you were going to say, Nea Verdalas. No, Neovar Dulles definitely got more nominations than... Okay. Blue Crush is definitely one of Kate Bosworth.

Blue Crush is one of them. All right. Well, now the, now the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Superman returns. Superman returns. Thought that might take you a minute to get there. Our worst lowest lane, uh, altino shade. Okay. Kate Bosworth, now it starts getting to be, how many Kate Bosworth movies can I remember?

Because, like, you know what's crowding her out in my brain, and it's not. this is not an answer, is Still Alice. You know who we never talk about when we're like, you know, Still Alice is great. And it has a lot of great performances. You never mentioned Kate Bosworth. Poor Kate Bosworth. She's fine in the movie. Yeah, she's not bad.

She has a couple of moments. She's better than, like, Hunter Parrish. Oh, I think Hunter Parrish is good in that movie. I like Hunter Parrish. Okay. Who plays Kate Bosworth's husband and Still Alice? Is that anybody? There's just some, like...

It's conceivably John Krasinski, but it's not John Krasinski. No, John Krasinski is, uh, is, uh, is, is, is Hunter Parish's brother-in-law in a different movie, is, uh, is, uh, it's complicated. Um, all right, back to Kate Bosworth. I feel like there is definitely, oh, God, oh, God, is it beyond the sea? No, not beyond the sea. Oh, good. I'm glad for her there.

She plays Sandra D. opposite of a, particularly ghoulish, Kevin Spacey, and that is saying something and beyond the sea. So is that one strike? That is one strike. You have two right guesses, one wrong guess, two remaining titles. All right.

She had another one around the time of Blue Crush, I think, where it was like youth appealing movie. Um, oh, was she in that movie with Jessica Alba and Scott Kahn and they're like, maybe I'm just thinking of surfing.

Maybe I'm getting surfing confused. Where there's like a treasure. That's into the blue. She's not in that. Right. That's what I was, it's because it was also blue. All right. I'm just going to guess still Alice and you're going to give me years.

It is not still Alice. You are very correct about that, though. What if it was? That would be kind of great. That would be kind of great. Your years are 2004 and 2008. All right. 2008, you've mentioned a co-star that is also in this movie.

I've never put two and two that she has been with this actor a billion times. Spacey? Yes. Oh, no. 2008? 2008. Kind of surprise hit movie. Uh-oh.

Well, Casino Jack was. It was 2010. Oh, is that that card counter movie? Is he in that? Do you have a title for me? Is it 21? 21. Right.

God. All right. 2000. I'm pretty sure Spacey's in that. Hold on. Yeah, Spacey's in that movie. All right. 2004.

She is first build, but you might not guess that based off of the title of the movie. Oh, the title is the name of another person in the movie? Yes. Oh, another character in the movie, obviously. Kind of a famously titled after a character movie. The Black Dahlia? No. Not that kind of famous.

Like, this is a very goofy title for a movie that has the character's name in it. Oh, so it's not just like Vera Drake. It's like... Yes, Kate Bosworth's Vera Drake. So it's like, whatever happened to blah, blah, blah. Yes. Oh, for comedy? Yes.

Not like saving Silverman. No, but you're on the right level of what tier of comedy we're talking about. Oh, it's win a date with Tad Hamilton. Win a date with Tad Hamilton. There we go. I got there. All right. That was fun. Honestly, good for Kate Bosworth. She's the lead in that movie, huh?

She's the one who's winning a date with Tad Hamilton. I guess. I mean, it's Josh DeMell and Tofer Grace. It makes sense that she would have been billed higher than them. Josh DeMell, one of the great was so hot on a soap opera that they had to give him a movie career stories of my lifetime. Like, truly, he was on all my children, and he was just so hot. And they were like, well, he's too handsome to keep out of the movies. So we're going to give him a movie career. And we were all very happy that they did. All right, that is our episode. Thank you, listeners, for joining us.

Actually, welcome to 2022. You'll be listening to this one in the new year. Hey. If you want more of this had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.tumler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find you in your stuff? You can find me on Twitter and Letterbox at Chris the file.

That is F-E-I-L. Yay, I am on Twitter at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D, letterboxed as Joe Reed, read also spelled R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievious for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, or wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility, so write down something very nice about us and then dog-walk it across the room. that is all for this week but we hope we'll be back next week for more about it. Thank you.

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