This Had Oscar Buzz - 178 – October Sky (with Esther Zuckerman)

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Moving along from Maggie Gyllenhaal’s breakthrough last week, this week we are dis cussing her brother Jake’s! Senior Entertainment writer for Thrillist Esther Zuckerman joins us to talk about middle school classroom mainstay and union-agnostic true story, 1999′s October Sky. The film starred Jake Gyllenhaal as Homer Hickham Jr., as young West Virginian who bucked the … Continue reading "178 – October Sky (with Esther Zuckerman)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get down in a night. Sputnik over the other night. Anywhere in the world, someone could look up and see exactly what I saw. To everyone else, it was just a light in the sky. Let them have outer space. We got rock and roll.

But to Homer Hickham, it was the future. Sputnik is a milestone in history. And just maybe a way out. College scholarships were winning a science fair? I'm going to build a rocket. You better take an interest in your own town. Just don't blow yourself up. Now, and should we get behind something?

What do you want to know about Rockets? Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that truly appreciates James Spader's erotic era. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz will be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my favorite Rocket Boy, Chris File. Hello, Chris. A Rocket Boy on the way to becoming a Rocket Man.

I'm excited to talk about the Rocket Boys. Did you know that Rocket Boy is an anagram for October Sky? I did not know about that. Do you know how they got that anagram? No, I didn't. It was from one of those, like, Windows 95. Like, you put it in a phrase, and then it mixes it up. Get out of here.

It came up Rocket Boys one time. Is there anything Windows 95 could not do for us? I don't know. I mean, we are a podcast that was inspired by the Mays screen. Saver? Do you remember the maze screensaver? I do. I remember I probably had experience with all of those screen savers at one time or another. I was very

much into like constantly changing the screensavers to like reflect my mood at the time. So yeah. I don't know how to segue from Windows 95 and to our guest but like I'm just going to stumble bum on through it because I'm very excited to welcome our guest for this episode. We will be talking about October Sky. And

at the request of our special guest this week, She is the senior entertainment writer at Thrill List, formerly of The Atlantic Wire, where she and I worked together and had such a wonderful time. She's also the author of the upcoming book Beyond the Best Dressed about Oscar fashions that is going to be available on February 1st. Esther Zuckerman, welcome to this had Oscar was. Yay, I'm so excited. I'm very excited. I've been wanting to join you guys for a while, and I'm very excited to talk about this movie, which is, like, bizarrely formative for me.

I love that. As soon as you said that this was formative for you, I was just like, well, now we have to talk about it because, like, those are the best conversations. We're definitely all of a generation that we watched this in some, like, school setting, right? Like, this was wheeled in on a TV for us. I was already in college by then, so I wouldn't have been, but it does seem like a perfect wheeled in. I feel like this is a perfect wheel it in. And even if it doesn't have anything to do with what you're talking about in class, just like on a day. where the teacher just wants to show a movie. And I was a third generation, but I actually saw this in theaters. Amazing. Yeah.

I'm pretty sure I did too. I was trying to think of what my awareness of who was in the movie at the time would have been because obviously this is pre-Donnie Darko by a couple of years. So like I didn't like, I guess if you would have said, oh, Jake Gyllenhaal was the son in City Slickers, I would have been like, oh, yeah. But like it didn't really have any recognition. for me. I knew who Laura Dern was because, of course, Jurassic Park, and also because I, as a weird little Oscar boy was like, oh, right, Best Actress nominee for Rambling Rose

for Laura Dern, of course. And then Chris Cooper, as I want to sort of talk about later on, this was kind of a breakthrough year for him. He had been in like Lone Star and certain other things, but this was the same year as American Beauty. So this felt like a big, you know, but American Beauty wouldn't be for another several months. So October Sky just sort of was sold on its premise, I feel like, which is like a cool, a cool thing because it was very like obviously nostalgic and, you know, these like fresh-faced high schoolers, you know, making rockets and stuff like that. So I imagine it had a lot of appeal for you. If you were in junior high, high school, how young, how young are we talking? I was nine. So I was a,

I was a very small child. I actually saw this movie originally because My dad is poker buddies with Louis Colick who wrote the movie. So I'm pretty sure we saw it. We might have even gone to some sort of screening of it, but it was definitely a movie that I think my parents felt like, oh, we can take a nine-year-old to see this because there's like going to be absolutely like nothing really offensive in it at all. Right.

PG. Yeah, totally. Because I was thinking about this Oscar year and I was like, I did not see like most of the movies, except for randomly, Cider House Rules. Randomly, my parents took me to see the Cider House Rules when I was 9 years old. I don't know why. That's fantastic. Like, a lot of questions were asked, I believe, after seeing that movie.

I imagine so, yes. You saw the Cider House Rules, but not the Sixth Sense? Yeah, well, I was a scared kid. So I was, like, I was so scared of the Sixth Sense. But, like, I saw the Cider House Rules, but, like, I obviously did not see, like, Girl Interrupted or American Beauty when I was nine years old. But so I saw this movie and I got, I just remember it being like one of the first times. Like, maybe not one of the first times, but I just was obsessed with it afterwards.

And I, shortly after, like, I had an assignment that was like, read a biography and then do a presentation. And so I read Rocket Boys, the book it was based on. And I did a presentation dressed up as Homer Hickham, which I'm pretty sure just meant like flannel and like some makeup like I'd been in like a coal mind. Plad shirt and slacks. Yeah. Right. But I just remember it being like this moment of like a movie that for whatever reason, I don't know if it was like young Jake Gyllenhaal was so cute.

I was so inspired as like a little kid. But it was just like, oh, I have to like, I'm going to. throw myself into this and this will be like a cool, like a cool biography for my project than no one else is doing, which was very true. I love that. I love that. So what did you go through then a little bit of like a like a science or engineering phase? Or was it just like I'm going to express myself by dressing up as Jake Gillen. No, yeah. It wasn't like I was never like a science. I like, that's actually not true. Like I was sort of a science like when I was very young and I didn't realize the science had to do with like math.

which this movie covers. I did go through like a bit of a science phase, but I was never like, oh my God, I like want to be an astronaut or whatever. Sure, of course, right. The movie really did it for me. Maybe it was like the period piece on it.

And actually now that I'm like remembering the release date because it was released in February, I was eight. I was not nine yet. So I was, I was eight years old. It reminds me when I was a lot younger, I was really into TV shows and movies about lawyers,

which like they're everywhere, right? And so for a while there, I remember my parents- You were a few good men-pilled is why. 100% true. And so I remember every once in a while, like an adult would be, you know, I would be talking about some movie that I liked about lawyers, whatever. An adult would be like, which do you want to be a lawyer when you grew up? And I would be like, yeah.

And then finally I got old enough and I realized that like, oh, I don't want to be a lawyer. I want to be a lawyer on TV. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I want to be a lawyer in a movie. And then finally I realized this is like, oh, no, I just want to like, I want to work. somewhere within television and movies. Like, that's, that's what it is. That's what it, that's, that's, that's the attraction.

So, because the more you learn as you get older, especially when you start looking into, like, colleges and stuff like that, and you're just looking to just like, oh, studying law is a lot of drudgery. Yeah, it's sort of like the science stuff. It's like, oh, there's math involved? I want to make Jack Nicholson admit he ordered the code red. Like, that's the fun part. Yeah.

That's the, like, yeah, okay, all right, I got it. I feel like this movie, though, makes sense as, like, one of those early obsessions, Esther? Because, like, if you're people like us, like, of course, I think you're going to have a relationship to this movie if you're, like, around our age group. Because it feels very much like one of those movies that's, like, a bridge to adult things and, like, adult movies that, like, I think a lot of people around this time can relate to this movie being one. of those. A hundred percent. It was definitely a movie that I saw. Like, obviously, as I, like, my parents took me to see, like, a lot of adult things, like, at various points. The cider house rules for some reason. Um, it is one of them. Yeah. But, like, it definitely felt like, okay, like, I'm a grown up seeing this movie. Like, this is a movie, like, it's a period piece. It's serious. It's not, like,

pandering to kids at all. So I think that was, like, I think that did have. a big part of one of the reasons that, like, when I saw it the first time, I was, like, obsessed with it. Well, it's also about kids wanting to be taken seriously by adults to something, too. And, like, God, I totally related to that kind of a thing when I was a kid. It was just, like, I was always the kid who wanted to have, like, grown-up conversations at family parties and stuff like that. So, and I always liked the relatives who, like, treated me like a grown-up, like, who

would, like, not, you know, sort of talk down to me. So, yeah, that definitely related. So then from this point, were you sort of like, all right, I'm locked in on Jill and Hall then. Like, this is one of my guys. It was so, like, my interest in this movie, I'm realizing now, like, when I saw it for the first time, was really disconnected from, like, who was in it or anything. I mean, I was eight, like, and I definitely did have, like, interests in celebrities at the time. Like I definitely, I was going to say, you know, we talk like not to jump ahead, but like you were like you were asking me earlier about like we were when we were talking about this episode like the Oscar origin story. Like I remember like my first time really and I actually write about this in my book, which is that like my first time sort of like thinking about the Oscars was the day after the 98 but took place in 99.

So probably so we're just around this time in this movie. movie was coming out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oscars, like, I remember in, like, the computer lab at school with a pen and paper, like, drawing Gwyneth's pink dress. Oh, wow. Amazing. Like, just being absolutely obsessed with that dress, which is so, like, fairy tale, pretty pink type of thing.

Right, right. I'm a girl that contained multitudes. I loved the pretty pink dress, and I also dressed up in flannel for this project. But, like, so I don't. definitely, like, had an awareness of celebrity, but I think, like, Jill and Hall for me didn't click later. I think, because, like, after this, I was, when, like, Donnie Darko came out, I was, like, as I said, I was a real scaredy kid, and that seemed too scary for me. Sure, of course.

So, like, I try to, like, I, it wasn't, like, Dylan Hall or anything like that. There was just something about, it was, I think it was, like, the, what you were talking about before, like the adult feeling, the inspirational feeling. Yeah, totally. Really, really, that was what really sort of, like, spoke to me. So, first of all, I love that for your Oscars origin story, too, like that. 98 Oscars, I feel like, is one of the ones that kind of recurs when we talk to people about Oscars.

I think that Shakespeare and Love, saving Private Ryan sort of face-off was big. And I think it makes total sense to me that, like, Winif Paltrow, especially, especially in that, like you said, that, like, beautiful princess pink dress, like, would have jumped out at you that young, you know what I mean? Because it's just like, it's very easy to read that narrative even when you're a kid of just like, oh, she's like the beautiful princess who's getting, you know, everything she ever wanted. Like, that was the storyline. Because now I'm looking at like the Jake, like Jakes, which I'm sure we'll get into later.

And it's like for me as a kid, like sort of in that era, like he didn't really click for me again. until Brokeback Mountain. Like, I was aware of him, but it was, like, stuff like, you know, I definitely had not seen lovely and amazing or the good girl, like, you know, and, you know, again, even though I was, like, older at that point, the day after tomorrow still scared me. Well, those wolves, my God. Yeah. But, like, then, but then Brokeback Mountain was, like, the next time I was like, okay,

like, this is somebody I'm paying attention to. Totally. he's somebody who definitely had like phases of breakout like and even he's his is a really interesting career actually to think about because it's we've sort of conceptualized him differently at different stages of his career a hundred percent like and now we're sort of in this kind of uh post oakja stage where it's just like he'll show up on like the the um john milani and the sack lunch bunch and just be like a really like weirdo he's like a fun music yes but it also feels like he's like starting now again to like swing back into like I want to be like an action star type of thing like or right like because it's like he has that he has this year he has that like Michael Bay movie ambulance ambulance what if you know not just you know what if there was an ambulance one of the movies of the year ambulance what if there was an ambulance, but like, you know, he see, and there was something else that was announced

too that seemed like, oh, you're just like, you're going hard into this like sort of like much, like one, like circling back into like, from weirdo to like macho. Because even when he was in, uh, the Spider-Man movie, he was sort of playing a sort of like weirdo Jake Gyllenhaal phase version of, you know, a character from that movie. I mean, he was so good. Like, it was. Oh, he was great. It was so good because it was like, you know, when he makes that turn in that movie and gives that big speech, it's like, oh, you're just being a weirdo again, I'm amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that he's sort of revisiting action star phase because that was, if you could say that there was any phase of his career that was a bit of a failure, it was that.

It was Prince of Persia, you know, almost when he was almost Spider-Man. And that's sort of just like he never really got, like, even day after tomorrow, which is this big sort of action epic, the reviews, which were mostly negative, even though I think there's a streak of appreciation for that movie that I like because, like, I enjoy that movie. But there was a lot of just like, well, Jake Gyllenhaal can't really carry a movie like this. Well, because he's still in this, like, awkward growing stage where he's, like, you know, playing a lot of, like, pseudo-creepy fuck boys to older actresses. Yes, totally. Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking a lot about, like, his watching October Sky, how he, I mean,

he's such a baby in this movie. I know. That little haircut, too. I was just like, that's the, like, that's the little boy haircut. Right now. And my nephew is six years old. But I will say, like, he is such a baby in this movie. But, like, I was kind of struck by the performance.

rewatching it in that like it is kind of this distillation of like what his screen presence is when he's not being a weirdo and he's even at this young age an incredibly watchable actor in this kind of straightforward drama I guess I actually kept thinking about Brokeback Mountain too possibly because of the accent yeah yeah that like there's a lot there is that there is sort of like an element where you can trace that again and it's really weird sorry I have to call Okay, I'm back. No, I totally agree with it. And also, the fact that this movie was the same year as Varsity Blues, which I thought about because there's so many of these scenes that kind of walk up to the doorstep of him telling Chris Cooper his dad. I don't want your life. I don't want your life. And I was just like, and it's just like the comparison. Come on's your life.

It's not mine. Playing football at West Canaan may have been the opportunity of your lifetime. But I don't want your life. of how good Gyllenhaal is playing that kind of angle versus how I mean, not to like shit on James Vanderbeek like he's been through enough, but like

Vanderbeek's not, you know, winning any, you know, awards for his performance in varsity blues. I don't think that's being too controversial to say that. But yeah, I did want him to say it in this. I did want him to tell Chris Cooper I don't want your life. I don't want your life in the minds, diet.

Should we get into the plot description then? Well, before we do, I do want to talk to Esther about her book really quickly because I don't want to get too far down the road before we get to address it because I'm very excited for this book, Esther, Beyond the Best Dressed. Tell us all about it. Yeah, so it is a sort of cultural history of Oscar fashion. I think you get a lot of sort of Oscar fashion retrospectives that are just sort of boil down into like, these are the best outfits and these are the worst outfits, you know. And this is sort of, it's illustrated. It's a series of essays that illustrations by Montana Forbes are actually, absolutely gorgeous. But in each sort of essay, I'm looking at like what the person wore, what the woman wore mostly, and how it, you know, basically like the statement it makes in the sort of socio-political context of Hollywood.

So this idea that, like, when people boil down, like, red carpet, red carpet fashion can say a lot, like, basically. The idea that, you know, this is the most basic example, but obviously, you know, you have to include, like, Bjork, for instance. She's always at the front of my mind when I think of Oscar Fashions. Yes, totally. And this idea that it was so immediately sort of cast off as like, well, that's ridiculous, that's bad. Like, everyone's making jokes about it. Like, they're making jokes at the literal ceremony when it takes place. Like, it's already, you know, the same ceremony.

It's already worked into the sort of routines of the hosts. But, like, the idea that sort of, this idea that sort of came about, like, when she was there, that she wasn't in on the joke, which she absolutely was. Like, you read anything with her. And she knew what she was doing. She knew what sort of. And it's like, and it's the weird sort of dichotomy of the fact that she was wearing this dress. for, like, being nominated for the song from Dancer in the Dark,

which is, like, the most depressing movie ever made. Right. And then she doesn't even take it off to sing the song, to sing this, like, dirge. Yes. So, sort of, like, looking at things in that context, like, you know, even, I actually have two examples from the 1999 Oscars, which is this year, the 2000 ceremony. Right. And one is Angelina Jolie, because I sort of talk about, like. Of course.

Yeah, and I sort of, the Angelina Jolie chapter is sort of about two, two phases of Angelina Jolie, one in 2000 and one in, when she comes out sort of like in this mortisha Adams gown and the other in 2012, which was the famous leg dress. The leg, of course. And how you can sort of like look at this changing idea of her own celebrity through these two outfits, like she comes off, like she's so sort of like life and loose in the 2000. in episode like dress and obviously it's the kiss and all of these things and then over time you see this part this celebrity that was once sort of seen as unexpected who like wouldn't you know you can't

predict what she's going to say she's a wild card turns into the most sort of like stiff manicured like you do not get near me untouchable celebrity by 2012 when she's sort of stepping out in that dress and it's all in like the outfit is all pose. which, like, is exactly what she is. She's, like, a statue. She's, like, a, you know, a goddess. It's kind of insane to think of the sort of that version of Angelina Jolie, the sort of very statuesque.

Yeah. And also just sort of, like, United Nations ambassador, Angelina Jolie, with the 99-year. I know it wasn't that red carpet where she and Billy Bob Thornton had the whole, like, we fucked in the car when we got here. But that was the same kind of general. It's the file of blood. I mean, it's like, you know, she, you know, when she's before, when she married Johnny Lee Miller and they wore, like, their t-shirts with blood on, like, with written in blood on it.

And it's like, she's this, and it's the kiss. Like, the thing with her brother, obviously, you know, that was the dominant narrative after that Oscar ceremony, which is basically, like, is she, like, having an ancestralous relationship with her brother. Right. And, you know. And it fit the roles that she was taking at the time, too. Right? Where it's like Girl Interrupted and Gia and all these sort of like, she was the wild child. Girl Interrupted is like exactly who you think.

Like, I mean, it's a great performance, obviously. Yes. But like, it's also, that movie plays into such a narrative of like who this person was at that time. Like, you think of her as like unstable, like, which, you know, you thought of her as that character a little bit. So then when she comes out on the red carpet, you're like, oh, well, this makes sense, you know. Well, and then it's like, it's like. Is red carpet then just an extension of her performance of celebrity? Yeah, well, I think that's fascinating.

Yeah. And I think you get into that, like, earlier, like, I talk about how, you know, a lot of early red carpet dresses were, you know, from the studio, from the studios in the studio era, from, like, the studio's costume designers. So, like, they literally were, like, extensions of the characters, like, Audrey Hepburn's Roman Holiday Wind dress was a dress. there's a lot of controversy over who actually designed it because it's like credited to chivanshi but like also edith head um so there is just like fight sort of over it but like it was sort of this like element of it was from what we understand like a dress that was like from the movie that then was altered for the purposes of the for of the award ceremony and there's a lot that that feels like

a lot about character and how you want to portray. And then obviously the other 99, 2000 outfits that I talk about is actually in the context of the Gwyneth chapter because I talk about Tray Parker and Matt Stone on that red carpet. Oh, right. God, that's right. Yeah. Who came in the J-Lo dress and then the J-Lo Versace from the Grammys and then in the and then in the. the Gwyneth dress, the pink Ralph Lauren. So, and the fact that, like...

And Mark Shaman goes with them in, like, a pimp costume, right? Yes. Oh, I forgot that part. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they have since admitted that they were, like, completely high. Like, they were on ass. Of course.

Yeah. But, like... But the fact that this, you know, the fact that Gwyneth's dress, which was, like, already sort of, you know, as I said, for like, an eight-year-old girl, I was like, holy shit, this is the most amazing thing I've ever. seen in my life. But, like, she was already being made fun of, like, both immediately at the Oscars, obviously, like, the crocodile tears question and all of that. And, um, and then, like, the very next year, like, someone comes on the red carpet just, like, immediately, like, making fun of her look. Um, and how sort of fucked up that. Yeah. Yes. Well, that always, I mean, whatever, Trey Parker and Metstone have their own, you know, thing, obviously. And a lot of their

vibe is very much like, you're stupid for caring about things. And I, even at the time, I remember just being like, there was kind of like a little bit of just like a let them live kind of a thing. Just like, let, you know, let J-Lo and Gwyneth get their attention. It felt like very sort of like bratty of just sort of just like stop paying attention to these, you know. Right. And I mean, they were like, do we even go to the ceremony?

And if we do go, like, well, we're going to like say fuck you to the ceremony. But then even since then they've admitted, which I write about in the book, like, how hard it was, like, how, you know, challenging it was to create these looks, to recreate these looks. Yeah. Sort of like, yeah, like, this isn't easy. Right, right. Exactly.

Well, I super can't wait to read the book, Esther, February 1st, as we mentioned before. So very, very exciting. And we will tweet out a link for listeners to pre-order it, and it will also be on our Tumblr. Thank you. Excellent. All right. So let's jump back into the move. We're going to have you do a 60-second plot description in a second, but first I'm going to sort of run down the specifics of the movie we're talking about today.

It's October Sky, directed by Joe Johnston. I definitely want to get into the Joe Johnston of it all because he's a really fascinating filmmaker and sort of just paging through his filmography and listening to like a couple of interviews with him talking about this movie and sort of the context of his career. It's really, really interesting. written by Louis Kolic starring Jake Gyllenhaal, Chris Cooper, Laura Dern, Chris Owen, William Lee Scott, Chad Lindberg, Natalie. It premiered on February 19th, 1999. Probably I would guess like a month before those Shakespeare and Love Oscars, actually, because they think they were still in March at the time. I also feel like that was the first Sunday Oscars, or one of the first Sunday Oscars.

I think it might have been the first, where they moved. It moved it from Mondays to Sundays. Oh. Which it's wild to think about, like, for so many years, like the biggest TV event of the year that wasn't the Super Bowl, was just on a Monday night. Just wild. Okay, so Esther, I have a minute on my little phone here. I'm winging this, so let's see if I can do it. Oh, I love it.

Love it when people wing it. I much respect. All right. So 60 seconds to describe the plot of October Sky. your time starts now. Okay. So Jake Gyllenhaal plays Homer Hickham Jr., who is the son of a coal miner, played by Chris Cooper in West Virginia. He wants to get out of this town, but he can't get a football scholarship, which in the 50s is basically, like, the only way out of the town.

Then he sees Sputnik flying across the sky, and he decides, I'm going to build rockets. So he and his friends join up with another friend who's like the nerdy kid at school and risk. social isolation and start building rockets and obviously his dad his dad is not happy with his rocket building but his kindly teacher played by Laura Dern Miss Riley is encouraging to him to go to the science fair and become an engineer and there's all sorts of conflict including a strike at the mine and but he succeeds and goes to the science fair and gets to go to college and becomes a NASA engineer. And time, very good.

Well, well spaced out there, Esther. Great. Good job. As I texted to Chris last night, the one question I have about October Sky is, where were the lesbians and gays who support the minors in this town? Like there were in Pride, my favorite movie about minors. Well, so the other thing that I was also going to say that I thought about when watching this movie is it is.

basically, I know this is real life and this other movie was not real life and he came out afterwards, but it is basically the same plot as Billy Elliott. Yeah, I was going to say that too. My question is, where are the pre-teen boys learning ballet? Yeah, exactly. It is the same plot as Billy Elliott. It is just sub-rockets for ballet. Yep, yep, yep, exactly.

And the other thing is that the other difference is that Chris Cooper's character, John Hickham, is management. at the mine, so he's not supporting the strikers. I thought that was very interesting. This movie is also maybe anti-union. You couldn't have made this movie in England because miners, strikes and mining unions are such a flashpoint of that country's sort of modern history. Yeah. And it's interesting that you could, the movie like October Sky can sort of tiptoe past

the union issues in this without an audience sort of turning on it, which... I mean, it is weird that it's... it's like basically the plot in the like basically it's like his dad ends the strike to help his son and that's like the big that's the big sort of emotional gesture and you're not like just like and and that's his like turn I mean so I guess it's it's not anti-union so much as it's just like not really getting into it. It's not specifically pro union. It's sort of like yeah. It dodges any pro or negative union sentiment because it's a movie about kids and it assumes kids don't understand. understand what unions are. Yeah.

But it also, like, literally shows, like, dead and broken body is being pulled out of this mine or whatever. So, like, you are definitely seeing things, like, just like, oh, wow, like, these workers could use some protections. Like, I, like, you can definitely draw the line to why these. Yeah, poor Peter Parker's, uh, landlord dies in the mine. I was, oh, my God. When I came across him, I was like, oh, my God, it's Peter Parker's landlord.

He wants the rent. He wants the rent. He wants to rent from Peter Parker. And then I had this, like, weird brain moment, too, because it's like, obviously Jake has this, like, weird connection to Spider-Man and the fact that, like, he was almost in a Spider-Man movie. And then, you know, and then he was in a Spider-Man movie. And so my brain sort of broke for a minute. I was like, wait, well, do they work together again? I was like, no, he was just Spider-Man.

October Sky is in the multiverse. Yes, absolutely. Oh, my God. That's so funny. So I want to sort of back up to Joe Johnson for his first. second, as I was mentioning. This is his best-reviewed movie, if you look at this on Rotten Tomatoes. It's a 91% are on Rotten Tomatoes. And, you know, caveat, Rotten Tomatoes, problematic. Not a true barometer, yada, yada, yada, yada. But relative to everything else, he makes this

movie after a really interesting sort of stretch for him because he, his career is sort of fascinating. Every time our friends that our friends at Blank Check, well, every once in a while sort of mentioned sort of a stray thought that they might do a series on Joe Johnston. And after looking at this filmography, I'm just like, well, they kind of have to because it's a really fascinating career. And I really,

next time it's up for a bracket vote or whatever, I'm definitely throwing my support, because he gets his start as a effects guy for George Lucas in this original Star Wars trilogy. He's the guy who designed the

Boba Fett look, like costume? Yeah, there was actually a really interesting interview with him, Pegged to Book of Boba Fett, that I think Dave Ithcrofted in The New York Times where he was like, yeah, I would have never taken off the helmet, which like obviously the new show is doing all the time. Sure, of course, yeah. Well, and it's funny because then you look at The Rocketeer, which was his second movie. And like, obviously you can draw the line from the Boba Fett costume to The Rocketeers look

pretty clearly. his first, though, feature film is Honey I Shrunk the Kids, which I had no idea. I had no idea that that was a Joe Johnson movie. And, like, what a... Talk about a movie that, like, when I was nine years old, I was super into. And that movie was a big deal. Talk about a movie that I was super scaredy cat about, because that is a terrifying movie. That big giant ant, but it was so friendly.

Two of Joe Johnston's movies, pre-October Sky, I did see. but, like, I fully associate with being just, like, absolutely terrified of because the other one is Jumanji, which is also a scary movie. Well, yes, absolutely. Honey I Shrunk the Kids also, every once in a while on Twitter, like some Gen Xer will circulate a photo of the older brother from the neighbor older brother from Honey I Shrunk the Kids and just like, oh, right, that was like absolutely one of my very first, like, gay crushes when I was way too young to know what was going on. um was that guy um but so that's a big success that movie and then the rocketeer isn't both of those movies were on the disney channel constantly by the way both of them i will always like jennifer connolly saying the rockahoo is like burned into my brain somehow because of the rocketeer um and but that one was got like okay reviews but like kind of was a bomb financially relative to

what they wanted to be and then he directs The Pagemaster, which I've never seen, but is like this notoriously bad, half live action, half animated, probably mostly animated movie. You really got to catch up to that weird movie, buddy. Is it worth seeing? I loved it as a kid. Yeah. It is bizarre. I feel like that's probably one of those movies that I liked as a kid where it was like settling in, like, oh, this kid likes the weird movies.

It's like bad as a McCuller. Culkin vehicle. Sure. But, like, for that mid-90s range of kids movies, it's fascinating. You should watch it. And it's like 68 minutes or something

crazy. I mean, it's worth checking out, just for the curiosity of it alone. Joe Johnston kind of disowns it. He talks about how he was only brought in to essentially direct the live action portions of it. He says that his cut was... Which is not very much.

Was totally usurped by the producers. He kind of, you know, I've listened to interviews with him where he, you know, sort of holds the producers of that movie in contempt. And he's like, I barely read the script and I only came in to work on, you know, a week's worth of work. And they changed everything. And I should have, you know, complained to the union and yada, yeah. Is this also basically what happened with Nutcracker in the Four Realms? I mean, kind of in that, like, he was called in late to fill in. Yeah. Yeah. In that case, it was for a loss of Hulstrom.

I do love Nutcracker in the Four Realms, though, in my own way. What a wonderful movie. The Pagemaster and Nutcracker in the Four realms are very, very aligned, I would say. Oh, that makes a lot of sense, actually. He rebounds from the Pagemaster with Jumanji, which is a $100 million movie, although it's interesting to think of at the time, like, at the time the reviews were not good. At the time, it was sort of kind of disregarded by critics, which is interesting because it has such a great reputation now among the people who sort of grew up watching it. I love

Jumanji. I love thinking about Jumanji. And it's sort of now, because it spawned all these sort of like later on sequels and remakes and whatnot, it's sort of hard to remember that that movie was kind of brushed off as just sort of like a Robin Williams cash grab with too much computer generated, whatever. But like I love Jumanji. And it makes perfect sense as a Joe Johnson movie because it's very much like adventure, you know. Terrifying. Almost like an adventure serial kind of thing. Yes, yes.

Also, kind of scary. The monkeys and that were terrifying. Also, the fact that, like, at any moment, like your nice little calm house could erupt into feral violence. Yes. October Sky, four years after Jumanji, it's his next movie, he had been in talks to make a Hulk movie in that time

and it sort of fell through and the Hulk movie interestingly enough the producer on that was going to be Mark Platt and so Joe Johnston talks about how he was sort of not super enthused about directing

the Hulk movie but wanted to sort of help develop it somehow and then he gets the script for October Sky he totally falls in love with it. It's called Rocket Boys at that point and he has to sort of like break the news to Mark Platt that he's not doing this Hulk movie anymore and he's going to do October Sky

and Mark Platt channeled all that rage and said I'm going to turn my son into the biggest star on Broadway and so he makes October Sky he says it's his favorite movie of all the ones he's directed and you can you can see the sort of care that he puts into this where it's very much a sort of like lovingly crafted

it's not like his personal story obviously it's a true story whatever and Joe Johnston doesn't really have a career that has sort of like you know this is my personal sort of like baby but this is the sort of most human size of all of his movies

and it's really lovely like I really enjoyed watching it again I hadn't seen it in forever and I had forgotten a lot about it it's just a really cute movie like I think it's really well done This is so weird that I love... Oh, sorry.

No, I was going to say because we're like talking about Joe Johnson, and I feel like Joe Johnson is probably the reason that they didn't position this movie better because it was February release. It's not the type of thing that they're rushing to get out, like the movie would have been finished

last minute, so you could have easily conceived them, you know, putting it out at the end of the previous year to do kind of an awards run or like holding it for the fall, but I feel like the type of affection that grew

for this movie was a more organic thing and then, like, we're still in the Blockbuster era, so it's like, I feel like this is also a prime, like, movie that people made their second or third choice at Blockbuster. And that's how a lot of people saw it. But

yeah, it just seems like the type of thing that, like, any awards credit that it got, it got organically, and because people liked the movie, but the movie wasn't positioned that way or expected to be as good as it was because of, you know, the critical reception of his earlier work or, like, what his earlier work was. Yeah, he wasn't expected to be an Oscar guy. Like, this was not, that's not what Universal sort of had in mind for this movie.

They wanted to be a sort of first quarter family movie. Yeah, and that's so interesting, too, because I was just thinking, like, I thought I had rewatching it, and I hadn't seen it in a really long time. is like if this movie were made today, like it would be positioned as an Oscar movie because I think like only like true stories like this really only get made largely or it's either an Oscar movie or like borderline faith based like there's no like middle ground for I think like stories like that these days. And like this I don't know like this is so weird to think and say out loud, but it's like, if this movie were made today, it would be bad. Like, and I have nothing to back that up, but I just feel like, well, it would be bad because

it would all, that would always be like in the fabric of what the movie is supposed to be. Right. It would either be like overly inspirational and mockish and sort of like really. And I think like it does such a good job of sort of hitting all those notes without beating you over the head with them. And I think, so it would either be that or would be like almost too self-conscious and like winky and like trying to be like funny in a way that this like doesn't go overboard. Like it's just like a very, it's a very just like well done straight down the middle movie, which I just don't think we have any room for anymore, which is upsetting. There's an earnestness to this kind of movie from the 90s that like is earnest. But like

when we talk about earnest now, it's, like, overly, like, wrought earnestness, whereas, like, this is just, like, very simple, straightforward, um, and, like, effective. It's also nostalgic without hitting you over the head with that. Like, it is, it sort of is set in this sort of bygone era, and without being, like, I feel like these days, those kind of movies are almost kitsy with how they are adding period detail to things, and you almost sort of, and I, you know, I don't hate stranger things. Like, I have complicated feelings about stranger things. But, like, anytime you see a movie with, like, it's four young boys who are friends who are

doing something in an older time, and it's just like, oh, they're going to do the stranger things thing, but they were just going to really, like, heavily, you know, make, like, press their thumbs on the scales of nostalgia and things like that. I will say, I think, like, Joe Johnston does this really well throughout his work, because even thinking about, like, Captain America, the first adventure. which is like almost an underrated Marvel movie at this point in time, but is so good. But it, like, does a really good job of sort of, like, getting into, like, the 40s nostalgia without overdoing it. It's, it's, like, he does a really good job at it, at that.

No, totally. I think that's right. He's, he, he does period detail in a way that feels very cared for without feeling showy. Yeah. And, and in Captain America. it's really fun. Obviously, you really get the sense that he got that movie because of The Rocketeer

where it's just like that kind of like they don't make movies like that anymore and he brought that energy to Captain America and it's very distinct The First Avengers is very distinct sort of because of that when people always talk about sort of the Marvel machine and whatever and I

can quibble with that to one degree or another but that's definitely a movie that stands out and I think Joe Johnson is a really big part of that reason. My observation while re-watching the movie in terms of like the period detail and like that 90s earnestness thing was that we need to return to the era when every other movie had a yakety yack needle drops in this movie were very evocative.

There was like the like you can't have a movie set in this time period and not have smoke. It's in your eyes. Like it's like it's it's the law. there was a lot of like there's a dance there's a school dance and that's going to have all the sort of

you know sort of soul hits of the time and yeah it's a good if this movie were made 10 even five years before it was I bet you it soundtrack would have sold really well yeah because it's a good soundtrack

movie I did want to mention a couple other sort of post October Sky Joe Johnson movies really quickly he did Jurassic Park 3 which has a very sort of I feel like Perfect. The most insane, like, credit to Joe Johnston for putting that a talking dinosaur in a in a Jurassic Park movie.

I feel like on a long enough timeline, people like Jurassic Park 3 more and more. Yeah. Shout out to my colleague and friend Emma Stefanski, who has written a ode to Jurassic Park 3 for us a thrillist, so. I mean, there's a lot to recommend it with that movie for sure. And also, Laura Dern shows up at the end to be in her second Joe Johnson movie. He does Hidalgo, a movie that I have not seen, but I always feel like, I fascinated that there was a Vigo Mortensen movie where he plays a cowboy, horse wrangler. What's his deal in Hidalgo?

I don't even. Yeah, and it takes place in, like, the Middle East. I was very, like, I don't think I ever saw it. this movie, but I was really hype for it in, like, a post-return of the King Vigo obsession. I feel like also this trailer was before every movie I saw for, like, a good solid movie. Yeah. I feel like that trailer played forever. I see Hidalgo?

I have not, but I feel like it fits in perfectly with your movies that only exist as titles, even though it's not some, like, crazy title, but it's not a convoluted long title, but it's not a things to do in Denver when you're dead. But, like, you can throw in Hidalgo there. That's true. He directs the Wolfman in 2010. That's another one where he jumps onto that project pretty much at the last minute. That movie was originally going to be directed by Mark Romantic, which I'm kind of fascinated at the what could have been about that movie.

The Wolfman, I genuinely think, is not a good movie. It's interesting that that's, of all of Joe Johnston's movies that have been reclaimed by history, that one has not. And I think there's probably a good reason for that. we remember it for Kate Blanchett reacting to it when she's reading the nominees at the Oscars that year for makeup and she says gross

and it did look gross it did look gross it's gross that's an interesting Oscar red carpet look though Esther that sort of pink pinkish purple thing

with the cutout yes if you recall yes I do recall what ear was that again well Wolfman was It was 2010, 2010, yes. It was 2010, yes.

So that was the Anne Hathaway James Franco hosted. Oh, you. Disaster. The best thing about that Oscars was Kate Blanchett's dress. Yeah. Yeah, it's Jivanchi. It is Jivanchi. Yeah, it's beautiful.

It looks like the cutout, it almost looks like a mirror mirror on the wall kind of like thing where you're just like, like, it's in that sort of shape. Yeah. I love that dress. It will materialize at any point. Yes, exactly, exactly. And then we've talked about Captain America and, of course, beloved Nutcracker in the Four Realms. So, yeah, an incredibly really interesting filmography.

And October Sky, again, as I said, he sort of talks about being very sort of dear to him. It was a Critics Choice Awards winner for Best Family Film. And this was back, this was the early days of the Critics' Choice. Very early critics choice. They didn't do nominees. It was just, they were like the National Border Review or whatever. They would just have a list of winners. And I'm trying to, they went for American Beauty for Best Picture that year, as did the Oscars.

I'm trying to pick out any kind of like interesting choices they made are sort of off. Well, their best song was Music of My Heart from Music of the Heart. So, you know, they recognized Diane Warren, even if once again the Oscars didn't. not um i feel like we've done a what if the oscars had a best picture 10 lineup before and what they because they do have a top 10 in critics choice this year i feel like it is very close to what ours we said it would probably be minus toy story two is not nominated there so read it off chris read off their top 10 that year as you said their winner was american beauty they also have being john malcovitch magnolia man on the moon cider house rules the green

Green Mile, The Insider, The Sixth Sense, talented Mr. Ripley, and Three Kings. So it's the five movies that would eventually get the Best Picture nominated at the Oscars, plus Malcovich, which had gotten the director nomination for Spike Jones. Magnolia, Man on the Moon, Ripley, and Three Kings. Yeah, that seems, that seems very... I would probably sub Toy Story 2 and Toy Story 2 for like Three Kings. and then Man on the Moon would probably be, like, election? Maybe, because election did get that screenplay nomination that year.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good list. 99 sort of is kind of notorious at the Oscars for being this, like, great year for movies, and kind of a dubious best picture lineup because of the cider house rules and the Green Mile in particular. And also because American Beauty has a very complicated legacy as a best picture winner, a movie I still haven't rewatched in years and I'm still kind of I've now, I'm sort of now shifting from afraid to rewatch it again to kind of interested to rewatch it again because I almost perversely want to make a case for it, but I want to see, I want to see

where it lands with me now because it feels like the worm has turned on it so heavily because of eight billion things about it. Yeah, I rewatched it, I think, in 2000. 15 maybe for like an anniversary piece where like I did a piece that was like when I was at EW that was like doesn't hold up. Yeah. But that was also pre-spacy's so it's like there's another there's another layer of you could not pick a worse spacey movie to watch in the context of his whole deal.

Like it really is like I guess billionaire boys club which I did watch and write about like right in the wake of that when it they like snuck it on to vod that year but like even that one he's not being like sexually creepy in that beyond like inference or whatever um yeah and we didn't get a spacey christmas video this year maybe we're entering a new era god bless tiptoed past that graveyard didn't we yeah um the other sort of major awards attention that October Sky got, because it really wasn't much. As Chris, you said, it sort of forged its own path, kind of, and had a very genuinely, almost like grassroots support,

was the Writers Guild. Sorry, I'm just trying to bring this up. It was a Writers Guild nominee for Best Adapted Screenplay. Alongside, I'm pretty sure everything else... It's the Oscar lineup with the exception of the... green mile. The, uh, October sky has the green miles slot. I was going to say, so the other nominees were election actually wins the WG award that year, which is awesome. Like, that's good for, good for the Writers Guild on that one. That election did get the Oscar nomination, but it lost to

John Irving for the Sider House rules. Um, the insider is nominated that year and also the talented Mr. Ripley. And I think it's just, it's one of those things where I don't know if you look at October Sky and think that's a particularly like the writing on that is so impressive. But I think it's one of those things where it's just like we really liked this movie and we want to find a way to acknowledge it within our own purview. And the writers are just like, yeah, like we really liked it. And well, and the Writers Guild always has like weird eligibility things and like you could, I'm not sure if Frank Deribon is not in the Writers Guild.

I would be curious to, like, go back and see that. And that's why he's not nominated, but like... Yeah. I was sort of paging through, uh, WGA nominations versus the Oscars sort of from like the 90s on forward. And you get, the, the lineups are a lot more different these days than they were. Like, for the 90s, you would get like four to five or even five of five match, match up, uh, for those. And I wonder if the eligibility rules became more stringent through the years or whether, you know, you had just more filmmakers opting out of the union or whatever. Like, who knows what the, but it does, it does feel like the, the lineups definitely matched a lot more than they do now.

Yeah, I think there's also, like, interesting, as the Oscars have gotten more global. I think that also gets involved with the Writers Guild because like there's weird eligibility for people who are not from America and then yeah also like and then you get people like stuff like yeah where it's like like Tarantino I think like never gets a writer's guild. Tarantino famously I think has never joined the Writers Guild. Yeah. That's sort of one of his screenplays are all written on cocktail napkins from together by

You know. But I sort of, I jotted down a list of sort of WGA nominees who were outliers for the Oscars. This isn't, the list that I had put in our document here isn't comprehensive of all of the WGA nominees that didn't get nominated at the Oscars. But these are more for like the films that like were kind of outside of the Oscar conversation entirely or in part. So one of these I lot, like I sort of, you know, It's so many of these on this list that you put here Which obviously we should probably read out, I guess, because people can't see it But our movies...

Yeah, call out some of your faves from this. Yeah, I mean, like the birdcage, obviously something that like I would, you know, is definitely one of my favorite screenplays of all time But never strikes me as sort of like an awesome clueless, same thing, like, you know. I love that Clueless got a WGA. I love that Clueless. I love that Mean Girl has got a WGA not. I love, you know, Pest and Show, I think is interesting, because, like, how much of that movie is, like, written versus improvised, but...

I remember that being kind of a conversation that year, because it was always sort of on the, like, long lists of predictions, and that was basically the issue there. It was just, like, will voters recognize this as a traditionally written script? But, like, well, and they kept, in the Christopher Guest movies, they kept trying to, like, push for that. So they, like, when you're reading interviews, use, they get way more pedantic in terms of how those movies are like made like assembled, like what is scripted, what is improvised, like how much

character description there is because I think they want people to understand it in terms of a screenplay specifically because those movies kept getting more and more awards buzzed. But also like, WGA, oh sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to like the station agent, you know, an adult, you know, they're definitely Please give is probably my favorite on there.

They're definitely friendlier to comedies, which, like, Apatow shows up a couple of times. He got nominated for the 40-year-old Virgin and knocked up. Tom McCarthy, you mentioned the station agent. Also, Win-W-W-G-A nomination, which, like, that rules. I love that movie. They also, like, they do make some bad choices separate from Oscar, and it's more, like, populace where they're nominating things like Deadpool. Right. They've gotten friendlier to the sort of action blockbuster recently with like Guardians of the Galaxy and Deadpool. Lone Survivor, I think, is an odd choice for a

screenplay nomination. I think the screenplay for a lone survivor is just like bones crunching. Right. Exactly. It's all sound effects. Like, it's all bracketed. Gunshots. Yeah. Helicopter gunshot. I love that eighth grade won a few years ago. Like that was, and that was again, pretty sure a year that was like riddled with ineligibility issues or whatever but still but no because both of the oscar screenplay winners are nominated that year both green book and um black clansmen are nominated and don't win it's a real there there are definitely like eligibility things there like i think the favorite was not eligible if i remember correctly but it's a weird writer's guild year in that like i think it also because green book didn't win in eighth grade one and eighth grade wasn't an oscar nominee and it it was like one of

those things that made some of us who were really on the anti-green book train feel like see it's not as strong as people say that yeah yeah yeah we had so much hope so many moments of hope in that oscar campaign of like it's not it didn't get a best director nomination it's not going to win best picture and oh god and it was also that the adapted screenplay that one was can you ever forgive me which was like, finally, it wins something. Yeah. WGA also a lot friendlier, too. Well, eighth grade is a good example of that, too,

of just sort of, like, high school movies and movies about, like, young people, obviously, Book Smart was nominated a few years ago. Perks of Being a Wallflower was a nominee. We mentioned mean girls. We mentioned clueless. And these are just things that the Oscars tend to shun in a way that is annoying about, like, you know,

I love the Oscars, but, like, that's one of the things about the Oscars. that's annoying is they don't seem to that group of voters their snobbiness sort of turns up their nose at movies like that which is a bummer I think even if you don't love

all of those movies I think that's you know it's a genre of movie that has greatness in it and it's a bummer when it doesn't get recognized I did what I wanted to mention I love you Philip Morris because like that's just a really strange it's wild to me that that was a nominee

I don't like that movie. And it's still just like, I almost like tip my hat to WG anyway because it's just like way to go totally off the map of what was in the conversation that year. Just crazy. I did that movie for the Bad Romance podcast and it was like, thank God I won't have to.

I will never do an episode on it for this because I don't want to watch that movie again. That movie had such a weird awards trajectory because it didn't come out until almost like two years after it premiered at its Sundance. Oh, yeah. It's very strange. Yeah.

Yeah. But anyway, good on the WGA for being, you know, off the beaten path and stuff like that. So October Sky, and Three Kings, I think, is the other one from 99 that sort of stand out. Three Kings had a lot of Oscar buzz at the beginning of that season, and the critics loved it. And then for whatever reason, it's interesting that, like, this was before the Oscars realized that they loved George Clooney. And I think Three Kings is a movie that- And David O'Ressel, right. And if this movie comes out, you know, 10 years later, 10 years after it does, I bet you it's a whole other story. Because it's, it's easy, you could easily see Oscar voters going for it. It's not like there's anything about Three Kings that is particularly Oscar unfriendly. Yeah. It's interesting. There was already the reports of like George Clooney punching David O. Russell.

like that wasn't something we found out later. Like that we knew that it was troubled. Always a good time remembering the stories about George Clooney punching out David O'Russon. Yeah, what else? What else do we want to talk about Chris and the guys?

Can we talk about Laura Dern in this movie? Please, let's. Because like, I feel like this isn't the type of performance that's going to probably even, like we mentioned earlier, if October Sky came out now, it would be a major Oscar movie but still that performance

probably isn't going to get an Oscar nomination but what I do think and I'm surprised that I never feel like this got talked about when Laura Dern became such a huge deal in recent years and like I think she became as big as she did and so like openly

beloved and we were ready to be like yes we're giving Laura Dern her moment is because like people in like our generations like sure we talked about Jurassic Park being like a part of like our nostalgia and our emotional like response to seeing laura durn but i think that this was some of it too when she's playing in movies like this where she's you know supportive teacher encouraging warm female presence that like that really like embeds itself

in your psyche when you're young and when you see this actress show up right and like what's fascinating oh sorry go ahead esther i was going to say like it's also fascinating like i didn't remember this because I did have a vivid memory of her. But like it's a, it is a really supporting role. Like she doesn't really, it's not like the teacher watching over their shoulders like at every minute. Like she sort of gives them a book. She supports them and then she gets cancer and it's like very sad. But it's just like it's not, um, it's not as and it's even, but like I mean, and this is another thing that I really like about the movie that like even when she does get cancer, like it plays it like very much underplays it. I mean, there's a beautiful shot for like watching the final rocket that they like shoot up looking out the window. That was the moment where like the tear jumps to my high.

A hundred percent. That is such like a beautiful moment and that's the moment that like same same. That's like when I started to cry. But it is like a very small. It's almost like a very small role. And I think like it's it is so interesting for her at this point in time. Like I, you know, the fact that like she had. hadn't made a movie since Citizen Ruth, but like, was it such like, but like previous, like, you know, a couple years before was in the like Ellen episode and like has a yeah moment there. It's, it's a fascinating sort of corner of her career because, yeah, she's like, Citizen Ruth is such a like classic indie sort of launching pad kind of a role, right? And it's, you know, we talked about sort of election doing similar things. for Reese Witherspoon in 99. And so her star did kind of jump, but like she did a lot of, not even a lot of TV,

but like the stuff she was doing at this point, she was in, like you said, she was in the Allen episode, the big famous coming out episode. She was in a TV movie about Ruby Ridge. She was the sort of narrator voiceover in that movie Bastard Out of Carolina, which is listed as a feature film,

but I'm pretty sure that was like, showtime or something like that. And then she was in that TV movie The Baby Dance with Stockard Channing, which I only know of because I remember old like Golden Globe Awards clips or whatever

where she and Stockard were nominated for the baby dance and it's just an odd. But that's another one where she's playing this like single mother who's you know Stockert Channing's going to adopt her baby and you know kind of very you could see where she

got cast in that from Citizen Ruth. But yeah, this is her first real feature film in, you know, what is it? Citizen Ruth is 96. So yeah, three years. And then even the 2000s are an odd decade for her. It really doesn't sort of start coming together for her until almost the end of that decade, where it really did feel like for a while you had to be like, we're missing out on Laura Dern here. You know what I mean? She's putting these... Say thank you to David Lynch and his cow for Inland Empire.

One of the great Oscar campaigns, David Lynch on a lawn with a cow, with a sign for Laura Dern for Inland Empire. Yeah. Yeah, and it's so interesting even like before, you know, even pre-October Sky, the fact that she's like this indie

you know, queen from the, from her like association with Lynch. But also And then, you know, Jurassic Park is sort of like diverges from that, making her this big, like putting her in a blockbuster, but then people not really knowing, quite knowing what to do with that, like with that and with her. And so like finding roles for her like this, which is sort of like, you know, gives her some nice moments, but not really like a real chance to shine. It's always fascinating to me that Jurassic Park being like the biggest movie of that year in terms of like just cultural dominance, right? And it was the big movie of the summer and all that. And yet the career trajectories that move out of that, the one that really gets the boost is Jeff Goldblum. Like Jeff Goldblum is the one who becomes momentarily kind of a blockbuster leading man from Jurassic Park. Like, not. Not really, like, Sam Neal goes and makes more Sam Neal movies, and Laura Dern sort of continues this kind of slow burn of her, of a career.

And, I mean, Samuel L. Jackson, I guess you could, but, like, Samuel L. Jackson wasn't, like, launching from Jurassic Park. Yeah. That's more just, like, you look back and it's just like, oh, right, he's the guy whose arm drops on Laura Dern's shoulder. It's a small asterisk, but I would say, like, Joseph Mazzello becomes, like, the go-to kid actor, right? For a little bit, yeah, yeah.

And then sort of shows up in the social network many years later, and you're just like, that kid, right? He's not the one who plays Peter Thiel in social network, is he? No, he's one of the, he's like one of their dudes, like, in love. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's like, I can't remember. I can't remember the names either. But it's like, who cares? Yeah. All right.

I was just going to say, that would be an odd, like, just to have that on your IMDB, just played Peter Thiel in a Best Picture nominated movie and it's stuck on you for the rest of your career. No, that would be a great... He's Dustin Moscovich.

I'm Joseph Mosello and I'm an actor. Yeah, he's Dustin Moskowitz. He's like one of the guys in college of them. Right. What did you say, Chris? I was saying it would be a great footnote in those like, I'm Joseph Mosello and I'm an actor at the Sauer Woods.

And don't forget he was in... Was chased by D. dinosaurs and played Peter Thiel. He was in a Bohemian Rhapsody. Oh, yeah. That's true. What an interesting career for that kid. Yeah.

Yeah, I love Laura Dern in October Sky. I think, Chris, it's exactly right. She's sort of that, like, perfectly, you know, the kind teacher is a great archetype for when you're watching a movie, when you're that age, when you're sort of young. And then it, like, activates, like, when, you know, she has this moment, like, we have this emotional connection that I don't think we, like, quite put words to for who this actress is. And she couldn't be doing something

more different, but, like, that's part of why we get so invested in it. This is also the year of Chris Cooper playing stern dads in movies, obviously. That's, that's not the total, that's not the sum total of his role in American Beauty. There's, God, that's another problematic aspect of the American Beauty. It's like, it's so funny. Oh, God, I forgot about that. That whole movie unlocks his character by him being, like, gay attracted to Kevin Spacey. Oh, God. American Beauty.

What am I going to do with you? Chris Cooper's trajectory is so fascinating in the past, like, 25 years. Stern dads to outsider weirdos to elder soft boy. That's true. I love the elder soft boy era of Chris Cooper. But I still feel like there's still. like sort of stern dad thrown in there. We got like a beautiful

day in the neighborhood is like pretty stern dad. That's true. That's a good point. Well even even like little women the like the elder soft boy comes from the expectation that he's going to be stern dad. Like that's the swerve in little women

is you expect him to be you know gruff and mean and then it turns out he's just like sweet and and sad and I love him in that movie. I should have been, I would have Oscar nominated him for a little one. That's what I. Yeah, he's so good.

What are other some recent ones? August Ossage County, he's even, like, that's a movie full of, like, hardened, like, bastard people. And he has a little bit of a, he sort of compares more softly to Streep's character, I guess, in that, where he's just like, you know, like, God, like, he just sort of, like, is shocked by her in so much. of that movie. A movie that asks us to believe that Chris Cooper could be Benedict Cumberbatch's dad. And yet, a plausible,

no, he's too old to be, well, how old is Bronco Henry? If Bronco Henry was, was cast in that, are you saying, could Chris Cooper be Bronco Henry?

That's my question. I'm not saying he could, but I'm wondering whether that's a possibility. In the Bronco Henry origin story, like, who do we cast in the Bronco Henry? Well, we'd have to go back in time for Chris Cooper. But wouldn't we assume that, like, Bronco Henry is, like, the same age difference between, like, Phil Burbank and Bronco Henry as, like, Phil Burbank and, like, Peter and Cody McKee? Yes. So what age range are we talking? Like, 50s? I mean, I think Benedict Cumberbatch is older than we think he is.

It's 45. And Cody's... So someone who's 60. Yeah. Okay. Or 65. But yeah, the Bronco Henry spin-off movie, he's going to be like younger Bronco Henry. So, like, we would have to see him at a younger age.

Make it happen, Jane. Get your cinematic universe at last. The Bronco Henry Cinematic Universe. Yeah, Chris Cooper rules. Only three years prior to his Oscar at this point in October. guy. Still one of the, I don't think it's crazy that he won the Oscar for Adaptation, and I certainly feel like it was like a deserved performance, but it's just kind of wild that he went from

just being sort of like a character actor's character actor, and then gets this like one incredibly quirky role in a movie that in any other year you would think, you would see adaptation and you would be like, good movie, but that's way too weird for the Academy. But because the Academy had already latched themselves onto Spike Jones and Charlie Kaufman with being John Malkovich, it was sort of like ushered into the conversation and sort of given consideration. But like, it's weird to think of adaptation in a vacuum and be like, oh, yeah, like Oscar voters were on board for the ride that that movie. I guess because it's about the process of making movies, I guess that appeals to them. but I mean it probably softens the edges of weirdness for that movie but also you have to figure it's only a few years removed from American Beauty

when there's still a positive sentiment and I think at the time there was because I remember even in like award season interviews Annette Benning being like I don't understand why no one's paying attention to the performance Chris Cooper gives in this movie I feel like there had to have been some lingering sentiment of we maybe missed an opportunity to recognize this actor in the movie we loved. I mean, like, the

supporting actor lineup is very good for 2000, but it is almost surprising that he didn't make it in for, given like, the overwhelming love for American Beauty sort of like all over the place. He was, I should mention, he was a SAG nominee

though, that year for American Beauty. Like that was, he was kind of the outlier at those SAG nominations where, and now I want to look up and see who he displaced. Give me a second. It was him instead of Jude Law,

actually. It was the Oscar lineup. It was Kane, Haley, Joel Osment, Michael Clark Duncan, Tom Cruise, and then it was Cooper in American Beauty instead of Jude Law and Talented Mr. Ripley at the SAGs that year. I mean, I feel like the Michael Kane performance is just like such a sleepy performance in that movie. I haven't seen it

in a really long time, but, you know, He does the, like, whole princes of New England thing and, like, wins people over. But I do feel like that's sort of like. I was very fond of that movie at the time and I haven't revisited it in a while. And I probably should. But, yeah, that was, I think that the, the kind of cool kids were all on Tom Cruise's side for Magnolia and that one. And looking back, that was the, like, that was the opportunity to give Tom Cruise an Oscar. and it's hard to see that kind of thing happening again.

I have recently, like, rewatched Magnolia, and, like, he is so fucking good. Oh, he's astounded. He's really good. It's incredible. It's such a perfect use of him. Like, yeah, it is sort of sad that, like, that isn't, like, his Oscar with the fucking ponytail. I imagine people have written about that, too, about how much his character in that movie sort of

is a canary in a coal mine for like men in the 21st century. It's the PUA thing entirely, the pick of artist thing. I mean, it is that. But it's like online getting sort of like magnified now. It's so creepy. It's really, yeah.

It's so on point that I almost am surprised that it hasn't gotten the cultural cachet of like the red pill has from the Matrix where it's like a bunch of, people totally misreading the context of it and claiming it as their own, even though it's not meant to be. Like, because it is so, maybe it's that, maybe it is just too well done that you can't look it in the eye without feeling implicated by it or something.

But, uh, yeah. It's the type of performance that we're never going to get from Tom Cruise again, which is kind of like the added. That's sort of my thing. Yes. Yeah. And, I mean, I think in a year where. It didn't, because even after Tom Cruise won the globe for it, it didn't feel locked up.

And because there's like, it was such a competitive supporting actor year. And like a competitive supporting actor year were like almost all of the supporting actor players are in like best picture potential movies. If Magnolia was like a best picture player, he might have won. But I think it's more so like it's the type of performance that if it's a less competitive year, he would have steamrolled well and he won the golden globe and that was sort of at a moment where i remember there was an era there where the golden globes would in their supporting categories they would match with oscar on one of them and not match with them on the other and that was sort of like how it was like brad pitt would win for 12 monkeys but not at the Oscars and edward norton

for a while like the like comedy lead actors would not be nominated, like Jim Carrey twice, George Clooney. Yep, yep. And Cruz won, and then, like, Kate Hudson and almost famous is another one, where it's just like they would give it to, like, in many cases, like, the starrier, you know, a person, and then the Oscars would be a little snobier about it. And Michael Kane, and Michael Kane had already won, was the other thing. He had won for Hannah and her sisters, even though he wasn't there to accept the award that

year. I remember during the, when he was winning awards for cider house rules, I think at one of him, he said, you know, I'm glad I'm here to accept this one, because when I got the last one, I was making Jaws 3D. And, um, uh, he was, he gave some really good speeches at year. I remember when he won the Oscar, he sort of took a moment to say something nice about all four of his fellow nominees. And the thing he said to Tom Cruise, he was just like, uh, you should be thankful you didn't win this. Do you know what supporting actors get paid? which I thought was very cute and funny. So he was very charming for that.

But, yeah, so Cooper did have his little moment there as a SAG nominee. But in general, American Beauty, I remember even there was more, it seemed like there was more talk of, like, West Bentley and American Beauty than there was of Chris Cooper at the time, which is interesting to think of in retrospect, especially because so much of what becomes cringy about American Beauty that isn't problematic is about like West Bentley and the paper or the plastic bag and what I was going to say he did he did like communicate the most beautiful thing he's ever seen oh man I am I'm just going to have to I'm going to do it I'm going to jump in I'm going to watch American Beauty again it's going to happen West Bentley and American Beauty just grew up to be a shitty John Wilson

basically just like filming random things you know it's I think that my dog, this is so off topic, but like literally, sometimes I'm like walking my dog down the street and the other day she got distracted by a plastic bag and I was like, Daisy, is that the most beautiful thing you've ever seen in your whole life? And then your dog was just like, stop comparing me to that movie. How dare you? She was like, please. One of the other things I sort of jotted down because I was trying to, you know, put October Sky in context. This was a universal picture. film and I wanted to see what their awards sort of roster was that year. Their big success was

the hurricane, which feels supposed to be like a, it was originally positioned as like a best picture frontrunner. Well, and it was, I believe at the Golden Globes, it was like picture. I think Norman Jewison got a best director nomination and Denzel won the best actor award there. And there was a lot of talk that he was going to win the Oscar. And that was going to be his second and Oscar, sort of the narrative that eventually did come to fruition with Training Day. And a lot of what happened with the hurricane was this sort of negative press cycle about Ruben Carter and about, does the movie sort of gloss over his character, his crimes or whatever?

There were like, I think there were like relatives of the victims and yada, yada, yada. And there was just a lot of noise that I don't think. had any sort of real substance to it, but I think the noise kind of turned people off a little bit. And ultimately, Spacey ends up winning. Interestingly enough, they went for the less problematic choice of Kevin Spacey in American Beauty that year. And Denzel would wait a few more years. But yeah, the hurricane feels like an Oscar success that probably still fell short of what Universal wanted it to be that year. Um, there are other movies, Chris, you mentioned Jim Carrey won the globe for Man on the Moon and fell short of an Oscar nomination again for the second year in a row, uh, this year.

Uh, and then there were like the story of us, which was like a big old flopperuny, um, which I saw, I remember at the time. I don't know why I was so interested in seeing the story of us. Um, I guess I was very into, I guess I was into Michelle Pfeiffer at the time, but like, it's Bruce Willis, right? It's Bruce Willis and Michelle Fife. Bruce Willis, Michelle Pfeiffer, divorce movie. Right. Like, what? It's such a weird pairing to think of them. I don't know. It's such an odd casting.

That's what I'm just going to say. Bruce Willis and Michelle Pfeiffer do not project as a married couple to me. I don't know. Well, it's this weird era of Bruce Willis' serious leading man that, like, the Sharmelon movies work. But everything else. Yeah, 99. The highs and lows of 99 for Bruce Willis, The Sixth Sense and also the story of us.

And then, of course, Chris, the movie that we desperately wish we could do for this podcast, but cannot because it got a cinematography nomination, Snow Falling on Cedars, another movie that exists as a title. Have never seen it. Have never seen it. From what I understand, it features a lot of snow falling on Cedars. What? Yeah.

Ethan Hawk, I guess, right, though? Yeah. It's supposed to be a snooze. Yeah, it's supposed to be a snooze. Wow. Sorry. Ethan Hawke plays Ishmael Chambers, and Reeve Carney, aka Broadway, Spider-Man, plays young Ishmael Chambers. Okay, Reeve Carney as a young Ethan Hawk is not the craziest thing I've ever heard. No, but I just didn't realize Reeve Carney was like...

Was in things that long ago. Yeah. Yeah. A baby he must have been. My God, he's like, God, that's crazy. Broadway Spider-Man indeed All I have to say about Reeve Carney is when he showed up as Tom Ford in House of Gucci

I laughed in the theater and nobody understood why I was laughing It was amazing, what a moment I also love, I said this on Twitter I was being a bitch, I loved that day that Tom Ford released that statement about how House of Gucci wasn't very realistic or whatever and I'm just like, of all the fucking people

first of all, Tom Ford, director of nocturnal animals, that, like, you come across so well in that movie. Like, they literally, like, put a halo on your head as, like, the savior of the Gucci brand. And they cast you as, like, the prettiest boy in the world. Like, my God. Yeah, and also sort of, like, a historically cast it. And, like, I mean, he what, he did say, but, like, the timeline is all missed up. So it, like, is, like, more flattering to Tom Ford, I'm pretty sure.

Yes. Also, um, he didn't. It was a, it was. Not just a statement. It was an article in Grading Carter's airmail. I also just love the idea of walking out of House of Gucci and being like, it wasn't very realistic. Like, okay.

That's what you got out of House of Gucci, huh? Like, well done. Congratulations. God. All right. Good job, Tom Ford. All right. Anything else that we want to talk about October Sky before we move into.

Things like the IMTB game. For me, I think we've covered it. I really, I really wanted to get my Billy Elliott theory out there. I really wanted to get my theory. I really wanted to get my theory that this would be a bad movie if it was made in 2020 or whatever. I couldn't for the life of me figure out who the mom sounded like, but she sounded like somebody else who was familiar to me.

That like whatever, like, whatever version of the accent she was doing, I was just like, this sounds so familiar to me. And I can't place it. Because I definitely have not seen that actress in other things. So, like, I don't think it was that. But, yeah, I don't know. I will say I also, it's just, like, there's something that I really like to, like, rewatching that movie that also, there's so much that's done so subtly, like,

including, as I mentioned, the cancer storyline with Ms. Riley, Laura Dern's character. But even, like, the sort of, like, little romances that Jake Gyllenhaal's character, Homer Hickham have, like, it's not that, like, oh, he's got some, like, great romance with a girl that's like gonna shape his life. It's like he's got cute little, he's got like cute little flirtations and he like clearly fits with like one of the girls at the end, but it's not really like

a major plot point. He's just like he's into the girls and like, but that's not like a big deal. It's just like, no, the rockets are a big deal. He likes Dorothy. She's nice. Yeah. Yeah, I did have that sort of thought too. It was just like a lesser movie would have felt the obligation to sort of put in a obligatory romantic subplot and have him like have to like fight off the jock boyfriend or whatever.

Yeah, fight off the jock boyfriend or like she'd be like, I believe in you, you can build a rocket type of thing. And it's like, no, it's just like there in the background. And that's like very nice. Like that it's just not. So many of those details are just sort of like threaded in where it's like sort of just like painting the fabric of this kid's life without like hitting you over the head with it. He's just a boy standing in front of a rocket asking it to shoot straight up in the air. in this movie. That's all he's doing. I also, okay, the one moment, and not to be like whatever cinema sins about it

because I think it's fine, but I love the part where, you know, they get in trouble because they're blamed for starting the forest fire, even though it wasn't their fault. And they decide they're going to give up on rockets forever. And to do this, they take a Maltov cocktail and throw it at their little shed.

And I'm like, boys, you could have just like kicked it over or something. Like, first of all, you got in trouble for starting an unnecessary fire. And now you're throwing Molotov cocktails into nature? Like, what are we doing here? I laughed so much of that. I thought about that, too.

I was like, uh, this is more fire. Yes. Like, what you don't need now is more fire that is like way less controllable because you've done it with like a giant jug of moonshine or whatever the fuck. Like that was amazing. Um, I also liked the scene where they go and they steal a piece of train track for their, for the metal that they need. And then they realized that, like, after they've done that, like, oh, right, we could derail a full train and sort of have to panic and try to get the train to stop and it changes tracks and whatnot.

It's fine. Yeah. The other thing that just, like, plot way is sort of similar to the whole thing with the girls that I liked is that, like, they don't really, like, they don't pretend that, like, maybe they're not going to win the science fair, you know? Right. Like, there's no, like, both the, like, local and the sort of, and the state, the countywide or whatever, the second one is. Like, they don't pretend it's like, like, yeah, there's a slight, like, that his stuff gets stolen and he has to, like, you know, he, the guys help him rebuild the nozzle or whatever. Right. But there's no real, like, they know that, like, you're watching a movie about this guy.

He's going to win the science. Like, they don't belabor at the point where you're like, he, oh, no. like it's just like yeah he does it it's like more about the emotional sort of like journey of getting there than it is about like are they actually going to win right there isn't like the like well funded kids from the charleston high school or whatever that like are there and like we can't beat them look at them they have all the resources and yeah yeah exactly yeah um no that was wonderful and again it saves the the moment for like that like those looks of awe and the people are watching the rocket go up and like that's yeah exactly that's the moment

Yeah. Good movie. Thank you, Esther, for choosing this movie. This is a good one. I was glad we talked about it. Yeah, me too. All right. Do we want to play the IMDB game, Chris? Sure. Every week, we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just says. becomes a free for all of hints. Love that. That's the IMDB game.

That's the IMDB game. All right. So Esther, as our guest, we are going to give you the option for do you want to guess first or do you want to give first? And then also, who do you want to guess or give from? So I'll give because I'm a coward. All right. And also because I had like a reasoning, which is like a self-promotional reasoning. I love it.

For choosing, because I was, like, looking through your list of people you'd done. And I was, like, who do I write about in my book that you guys have not done? So I picked Sharon Stone because you guys sort of shockingly have not done her. It's surprising. So do you want to have me or Chris guess? I would like, Joe, I want you to guess. All right. So I will guess from Esther, then I'll give to Chris and then Chris will give to you.

Okay. All right. Cool. Okay. So Sharon Stone, I'm going to guess that basic instinct has to be one of them. Yeah. All right. I'm going to guess casino.

Mm-hmm. All right. Now here's where it gets difficult. Okay. Part of me feels like one of either Catwoman or Basic Instinct 2 is going to be on there, but I don't want to guess either one. But, like, I'm holding it, I'm holding it in reserve because I feel like the fates are strange.

Can I give, like, hints, like, if people are on the right or wrong direction or no? You can if you want to be, like, normal, like, we'll... Like, don't hold on to those. Like, you're good. Okay. All right. Good. Oh, and also, none of them are television or none of them are animated voices, right?

No. Okay. I'm going to guess then. sliver? Yes. Ha-ha! All right. Okay, so one more. Sharon Stone.

All right. I'm going to guess total recall. No. No. Okay. All right. I'm going to... Do I do another one of her, like, 96 thrillers?

Or is there something... more sort of modern and kooky um i'm gonna say oh wait what was that movie called shoot um where it's her and stalone what is that called is that assassins no it's not It's not assassins. Okay. So what's the year that I'm missing? Because that's two stories. It's 1995.

Oh, okay. So the same year as Casino, she did, is it the Flintstones? No. She's not actually in the Flintstones. Halliberry plays a character named Sharon Stone in the Flintstones. Thank you. 95. Can I give you a hint?

Yes. Yeah, give me a hand. Um, I was just going to, like, it's a, it is a lesser work from like a pretty significant director. Um, but not like a, like a sort of a genre director. Oh, okay. Um. But it's not the genre that this director is mostly no. is mostly known for.

So he's sort of stepping out of, uh... Yeah. All right. Stepping out of a genre that most people don't make movies of. Okay. So it's like, uh, is it like a horror director doing non-horror? Yeah. Uh-huh.

Oh, oh, no. I was going to say, um, she didn't end up starring in, uh, uh, I don't wait, that was Madonna anyway. I'm thinking of, uh, of music. the heart and that's 99 um horror director stepping out of horror um so it's not horror so it's not the diabolique remake remake no it's not horror it's not horror i feel like i should be getting this by now and i'm not i don't know it's a weird movie is it it's not west craven though right No.

95. Is she the lead or is she like? She's the lead. And I think, and she actually really wanted to make this movie. Like, this was like a big push for her. It's not the one where she's on death row, is it? No. Excuse me.

She really wanted to make this movie. It's a horror director. Carpenter? No. It's got a crazy. Can I list some of the cast? Yes, do so. Gina Hackman, Russell Crow.

Oh, Quick in the Dead! Quick in the Dead! I'm stupid. Of course it's that. That's a good one. I'm glad that's on her IMDB game. That's a weird movie. I like that movie.

Quick in the Dead. Good for her. Yeah. All right. That was a good choice. Good job, Buster. All right, Chris, for you, I jumped into the Joe Johnson filmography, and I picked somebody from Jurassic Park 3,

who I don't always think of. as being in this movie, and then I'll watch the movie, and I'm pleasantly surprised that he's in it. It is Alessandro Navola. Ah, the wonderful vocals from Laurel Canyon. However, I'm guessing Laurel Canyon is not in there. However, this is incredibly difficult. It's a tough one, I will say. This is a challenge.

I'm just going to say it, Laurel Canyon. Not Laurel Canyon. strike one one of his best um yeah he's really good in that face off yes i always forget he's in face off so good job sensational uh what's his what's the troy's brother's name pollux his his name is paulx troy absolutely sure why not soft boy of the troy family i would say also yeah i also always remember him from junebug but a junebug is definitely not there Um, what did we just talk about him in a most violent year, but he's not, that's not there. Right? I feel like none of these are there. Oh, I know, I know, the neon demon.

Good guess, because that has showed up for somebody before, but no. So that is strike two. So your remaining years are 2013, 2017, and 2021. 2021. Yes. Something that. Oh, the Sopranos movie, Many States of Newark. Yes, correct. Many States of Newark. Wow.

I know. It's surprising that it's already there and is known for. Yeah. 2013 and what? 2017. 2013. Let me make sure that the 2017 was actually released in 2017, but yeah. Okay.

2013, is it an Oscar movie? Yes. Is he like one of the billion people in 12 years of slave? No, but go along the lines of one of a billion people in. Yeah. He's in a movie with a lot of people. It's American Hustle. It's American Hustle, yes.

Is the 2017 movie? 2017 movie did not actually get released until 2018, I'm pretty sure. So it's not an Oscar movie. No. but it's either like international or premiered at a festival in 2017 then. Yes. Yep. You may have seen it at a festival, actually.

I saw it at a festival in 2017. You may have. I can't remember whether you saw it or not. I definitely did. What did I see in a festival in 2017 that didn't get released until the next year? He's kind of unrecognizable in it. It took me a while to realize that that's who he was. was that's who this person was. Oh, he's really good in this movie. It's disobedience. It is. Yes. He is very good in that movie. Yes. Rachel Weiss and, and Rachel McAdams in disobedience. Yes. Yeah, it took me a while into that movie. Is that the one Esther that you would have had trouble? No, I honestly would have had trouble with face off. Okay, that's the one for me too. I would have been like that. Yeah, like, for some reason, like I have just very distinctive memory. Like, like when I think of him, I really think of him in that movie.

And I'm on his I am DVD page, but I can't remember the name. What's that guy? He has a movie at Sundance this year. It's the martial arts movie. Oh, Art of Self defense. Art of Self defense. But like that and like, but the more recent things, like I do think of him as like an American hustle, disobedience, and obviously many scenes of Newark. I feel like many Saints of Newark.

I feel like many Saints of Newark is just like his biggest role like ever maybe. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And he's the one on the poster of that, right? Yeah. He's the sort of like, he's the focal points. I don't know if you guys saw it.

It's like he's the lead of that movie, very expressly, like. Yes. What a handsome face on that one. My gosh. Good singing voice too. Yes. All right. So Chris, you are going to quiz Esther.

Okay. I'm very stressed. I play with him a lot by myself, but I'm like so bad at it. I went through many different teams, some of them in connection to, the actors in this movie but like 99 is kind of a weird like teen and preteen Oscar year but I went with a more obvious one

I went with Thorough Birch Thorough Birch okay American Beauty American Beauty correct I'm Now and then No I guess that too

Ghost World Ghost World correct I Oh man Thorough Birch Um Why is like my brain struggling for like

Baby Thora Birch It is a pretty You're missing a pretty iconic one But we don't really talk about it for Thorough Birch Something iconic that we don't talk about for Thora Birch People talk about this movie every year Every year Oh um

Kat, um, I, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, I, uh, I, uh, I, uh, I'm, I almost at Halloween town, but it's not that. It is, um, it's the same fucking thing. I, uh, Sarah, Jessica Parker and Kathy and Kathy and Jamie and all of them. And I would normally say you have it, but this is a movie. You have to say. I know, focus, focus, focus, focus. It's focus focus. Oh, my God. Focus focus. Focus focus. Very good. Okay. The fourth one.

There's one more movie, but you haven't guessed another wrong answer yet. Oh, so I have to guess another wrong answer in order to get the hints. Thorough Birch, Thorough Birch. Honestly, I may just give it to you because there's not a whole lot of movies. I mean, like I can tell you right now, monkey trouble. is not one of them. Okay. Yeah, I need something for here

because I'm just, like, coming up a complete blank. I'll give it to you. It's 1992. So it's the year before Hocus Pocus. And I'll say she's a kid. And I'll say she's playing the daughter of an iconic character. It's playing the daughter of an iconic character. Or maybe more appropriately, a formerly iconic character.

Like, this is, they've tried to keep. this character being, you know, a character we care about and we don't. Yeah, it's one of those characters they keep rebooting in, like, different movies and, in one case, a TV show. Is it like, um, a Jack Ryan movie? A movie that you've probably forgotten was directed by Kenneth Branagh. It is a Jack Ryan movie. It's a Jack Ryan movie. Yeah.

Um, oh, my God. From 1992. So, I'm trying to remember which are the Jack Rye movies. I get all these, I get those dudes confused. Um, it's not like, Summerville fears. That's not a Jack Rye movie, is it? It is. I think it is, but that's the Affleck one.

That's the Affleck one. This is one of the Harrison Ford ones. This is one of the Harrison Ford ones. Um, oh my God. It's kind of generic. It's like, it's super generic. That's the problem with. Jack Ryan, you can't place anything of them?

Yeah, I like, no, I, like, I also, like, haven't seen these movies. Like, I have not seen the Jack Ryan movies. Like, I'm just going to come out and, like, I'm not going to see it. I, like, but it's like, they all have titles that are like that, that are just like, Oh, Cold War, I'm scared. Basically, yeah, this one's, I mean, I say we, I, I say, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's Patriot games. Patriot games. Yeah, I would have never gotten that.

I would never pulled that. my ass. Like, I got close. I got Jack Ryan. Yes. But I got to find that sound clip from Can You Ever Forgive Me, where she's trashing Tom Clancy. I hear they got Tom Clancy $3 million to write some more red-baiting propaganda. Lee, my morning has been long enough already. He's a fraud.

What's your point? He's drinking sherry at your party. No self-respecting writer would drink sherry. Oh, Lord. Yeah. Yeah, I have never seen, I have never seen, no, I have seen a Jack Ryan movie. I saw the Chris Prime Jack Ryan movie. The Kenneth Branagh one.

That's the Kenneth Branagh one. Yes. Amazing. Oh, yeah, and he's in it, too. Did he direct that? He directed that. And he's also in it doing like a crazy Russian accent. Yes.

Of course. Classic. Of course he is. Yes. Classic Brana. Good job. Well done. Good IMDB games all around, I will say.

Yeah, that was fun. This was fun. Yeah, this was good. Thank you, Esther. Once again, for joining us for this really fantastic episode. I'll say to our listeners, if you want more, This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz.

Esther, one more time, tell our listeners about where they can find you online, where they can go pre-order your book that is out in February, and all of the necessary information. You can follow me on Twitter at Easy Rights, like writing on paper, or on the internet. You can read my writing at Thrillist, and you can buy my book, Beyond the Best Dressed, great for Oscar lovers. And also, thank you to Joe immensely for his amazing collection of past Oscar ceremonies, which were it's very helpful writing this book. You can find it sort of anywhere you buy your book store. you buy your books.

Indy, Amazon, Barnes & Noble. You can find it runningpress.com. We'll have everywhere where you can buy it. Excellent. Also, shout out to friend of this had Oscar Buzz, Nick Davis, who was the person who transferred his VHSs of the Oscar ceremonies to me and gave them to me so that I can distribute them to my friends as needed. Love you, Nick.

All right, Chris, where can the listeners find you and your stuff? You can find me on Twitter and Letterbox at Chris V File. That's F-E-I-L. Excellent. I am on Twitter at Joe Reed. I'm also on letterboxed. Both cases, it's Joe Reed, spelled R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and

Gavin Miebius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So climb on out of the coal mine and write something nice about us, won't you? That is all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week. for more buzz. Bye.

Bye. Thank you.