This Had Oscar Buzz - 180 – Birth

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

We’re finally talking about one of our most requested films, Johnathan Glazer’s 2004 sophomore feature Birth. Starring Nicole Kidman as a woman grappling with a young boy’s assertion that he is her reincarnated dead husband, the film was initially controversial and critically maligned upon release, even with stunning work from composer Alexandre Desplat and cinematographer Harris … Continue reading "180 – Birth"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. I understand that this is going to sound crazy. I've met somebody who seems to be Sean.

And why do understand that that 10-year-old boy told you he was your late husband, Sean? He said, it's me, Sean. What am I supposed to think? He's back. What do you want? You'll be making a big mistake if you marry Joseph. There's a boy this tall who wants. to marry my fiance. You're hurting me.

Don't bother me again. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that's crying through our old age makeup as we play the violin. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris File, and I'm here, as always, with my reincarnation.

Dead Husband, Joe Reed. I am Sean. That's it. That's all I got for you. I am Sean. You're hurting me. Yes. Finally we're doing this movie. I feel like we've been sort of keeping this in the hip pocket for a while.

Always high on list of listener requests. Yes. This beloved... It's a great movie. This beloved movie that got 38% on Rotten Tomatoes. 38% on Rotten Tomatoes has to... to be in, like, I would say the lowest 10% of Rotten Tomato scores we've ever done on a movie. Probably. We've done some pretty bad ones. We've done some in the teens and such, but yeah.

Yeah, but I was still so shocked by that 38%. Me too. Partly because, like, people can put a review on Rotten Tomatoes whenever they want. And this is a movie that's gotten through enough of a reassessment. The thing about the reassessment of this movie, I can't just tell if it's a thing that it's like gay people are on board with this movie now, because it does feel, the resurgence reassessment of this movie does still feel niche. And I think that's somewhat due to the like intermittent availability of this movie. Maybe. I have a lot of thoughts on this matter. And, and, you know, we'll get into them as, we go along. But I think it's niche. The reassessment is niche because the movie is niche. I feel like in my experience, I feel like everybody who has re-evaluated this movie sort of loves it now. It's surprising to me that in the ensuing 17, 18 years, Jesus.

Is that right? Nearly 20. Nearly 20. that sort of reassessment and maybe like anniversary reviews and such like that wouldn't have bumped it up a lot. I was surprised that I was not able to find a whole lot of like 15 year anniversary pieces, 10 year anniversary pieces of birth because literally everybody I know seems to want to fall over themselves to talk about how this movie was not properly evaluated in its time and it deserves a reappreciation and reassessment. My thing with birth is I didn't get it the first time I saw it, and that was sort of whatever. That was kind of in line with the way that it was being mostly received at the time, even though I was in definitely like Oscar circles and like very sort of like ardently Kidman devoted circles,

and there were definitely people who were sort of loudly being like, it's great, it's not, you know, people are being too hard on it but there wasn't even at that time this like it's a secret masterpiece and that drumbeat because i wasn't uh do it i was lurking on message boards not posting because i i'm not patting myself to back on the back to be like i am an ogy birth fan but uh i'm an ogy birth fan i think and i don't even think it's necessarily people who sort of came around on it i think it's just people didn't see it right away and people didn't see it for years. And so I, it got reduced down to the more controversial talking point, which I think a lot of the people that were outraged are people who didn't

actually see the movie. Sure, sure, sure. And so as this kind of, all of a sudden, I was like, oh, it's five years after this movie. And now everybody, I know, I've never had a conversation with anybody who's seen this movie and not over the top, absolutely. loved it. And every single time, I was just like, am I a stupid person? Like, I genuinely, like, I generally sort of shamefully maybe pride myself on having some sense of taste and discernment when it comes to movies. And when it comes to something like this, because the reaction, the reassessment in the reaction to birth was one of those people didn't. get it at the time. People didn't understand what Glazer was going for with this movie. People

were too sort of dull to appreciate what it was going for. And I was like, yeah, I guess me. And so as, like, again, I've never, ever, ever talked to anybody about this movie who didn't love it. And like people whose intelligence I respect, people whose taste I respect. And I've seen it a couple of times since then, and it still sort of evades me. I think I have arrived at a point now where I'm like, it's a terribly interesting movie. It's a really incredibly interesting movie that does not, and that leaves me in a place that I feel like is not the place that everybody else is left with at the end of the movie. And it doesn't, I'm just not thrilled by it. I'm not moved by it. I'm not, I'm seeing these sort of like... Do you say the same for Nicole's performance?

I think it's, I mean, I love Nicole Kidman. I, it's a very good Nicole Kidman performance. It's not the best one I've ever seen. It's good. It's very good. She, that's seen in the... I think most days I would say it's the best Nicole. Yeah. See, and that's, I'm, I'm just not, I'm just not there. Which again, makes me sound like a hater, but I'm not. I think I, it's an incredibly impressive performance. I think, I don't know, I walk out of this movie and I'm just like, I wish I could feel what everybody else is feeling. And I want to, I have no reason to believe that everybody isn't like on the level about it, about how much they love it and about how great it is and how perfect it is.

But like, I will read these reviews on, you know, people talk about it on Twitter or on letterbox or whatever and talking about just like, this is this like fantastic encapsulation of grief and whatever and I'm just like that's not what I get out of this movie What I get out of this movie It's not necessarily what I get out of it either But I especially on this rewatch

I was struck in a couple ways By like what I think the movie is on about And because Glazer and I think Kidman Are fairly outspoken That it's kind of about the nature of love which I think people fall down the wrong kind of rabbit hole with this movie. And to them, you know, it's kind of this low-hanging fruit of, well, the nature of love is it stays with you and it makes you willing to, you know, believe circumstances despite reality. And I think in rereading some of the negative reviews about this movie, I think people get kind of lost down this rabbit hole.

of like mysticism or like kind of a spookiness like uh with the movie and i think like this is not a movie that holds your hand through you know what it thinks it's about and i think it's a movie that's you know but that's not what i want i don't want i don't want a movie that's going to hold my hand through this i like the fact that it doesn't and i don't want the dumber version of this movie. I feel like that's sort of how I feel like I'm being put, the box I'm put into when I say that I have never connected with this movie is like, oh, well, you just want, you know, the dumber version of this movie that'll hold your hand through it. And it's just like, that's not. No, it just, it doesn't click for you. Like, I mean, on a certain level, I do think this is a

wavelength movie. So it's like, I think, you know, and this isn't like to snub my nose at you or anybody else who just doesn't groove with this movie, but like, the thing about a wavelength movie is if you're not on the wavelength, you're just not on the wave. This is sort of, this is kind of exactly what I said about licorice pizza, where I was just like, it's a vibes movie that I don't vibe with whatsoever. And so what am I, what am I supposed to do about that? Like, there's really nothing I can do about that. And I think in licorice pizza, I can sort of nitpick a lot of little flaws in it that, um, sort of add up to a lot. And this one, and in birth, less so. I think, again, I think it's incredibly interesting.

I think the shots and the scenes are really good. I think the performances are really skillful. There are a couple moments that kind of delight me, most of them involving Lauren Bacall. I want to sort of get on to the other end of the plot description, though, just so I can kind of get into what I think the movie is doing and what I think the movie is saying, because I'm interested to hear how far apart we are

on what we think the movie is doing and saying. I would love to absolutely get into that. Yeah, so do you just want to get into the plot description? I'm guessing this is a movie that a lot of our listeners have seen, given our demographic of people who listen to us and the fandom for this movie. But guys, we are talking about 2004's birth, directed by Jonathan Glazer, written, by Glazer, Milo Attica, and Jean-Claude Carrier, who I did not realize was one of the screenwriters' very kind of prolific career, including movies like The Discrete Charm of the bourgeoisie, which I think, you know, definitely his contribution to this movie probably,

you know, gives it its... It definitely feels very French, this movie, even though it is not in any way French. It has a... In a way that, like, this is perhaps a movie you're not supposed to take things literally. Right. At almost any turn. Starring the one and only Nicole Kidman,

we will get into it. The aforementioned Lauren Bacall, Cameron Bright, Danny Houston, the very underrated Anne Hache, Peter Stormare, Alison Elliott, Arliss Howard, Ted Levine, and Kara Seymour.

Always think of it. of her and you've got mail. Thank you. I'm having my eggs harvested. It's a great scene. It's a great lion delivery. And getting those eggs harvested. Birth World premiered in competition at the 2004 Venice Film Festival and then opened Halloween weekend. It's not a horror movie at times, though, is the thing. If this was released today, you would have some idiot saying it's elevated horror. I mean, I might be one of those idiots. Like, there are, are times when I'm watching this movie and being like it has the aesthetics of a horror

movie. It is employing the aesthetics of a horror movie. Well, the symphony scene is something out of hereditary. Like, it's... Yeah. There are, like, there are, there are, you know, the way that Displas score is utilized at times feels like it's sort of, you know, taking the back road around to, to a horror movie. I can't wait to talk about the De Plaas score. Oh, it's very good. It's, as again, as all of the elements of this movie are, it's very good. It again, it confounds me why I don't love this movie, because it really feels like, and I, and I don't know, it's one of my great flaws in failings. And, and we're going to pick myself apart. I would not call it a flaw in failing. We're going to get into it. And who knows, you could come out

the other side feeling differently about the movie. Who knows? Could I? Who knows? But Joe, are you ready for your 60 second plot description of birth? I think the soonest we've ever gotten to a plot description. Yeah. I mean, I just want to get into talking about the movie. I feel like I sometimes I feel weird about like I think I get too sort of headstrong about talking about the specifics of a movie and I get ahead of myself. So I want to I want to be orderly in this one. All right. Then if you are ready, your 60 second plot description of the motion picture birth starts now. Right.

So Nicole Kidman's husband is named Sean. He goes for a run in Central Park. He drops dead. Ten years later, she's getting engaged somewhat reluctantly to a character played by Danny Houston. And shortly after their engagement party, a young boy shows up at her mother's birthday party and declares himself as the reincarnated Sean, and he's in love with Anna, and he wants to be with her. And nobody believes him at first, and she, Kidman sort of wants to send him away. Anna is her name.

And sort of against her better judgment, she comes to realize she believes this, or she very much decides that she wants. to believe this. Oh, shit. Sorry, I wasn't tracking your time. That's fine. Am I done? Am I over? No, I was listening and getting lost. Sorry. Okay. Let's say you have 10 seconds. All right. And finally, by the time she comes around to it, he is revealed as a fraud because Anne Hache is a badass. And they can't be together. And then she has a breakdown on the beach at her taking wedding photos. It was about time that I got lost in one of your points. Sure. It's such a compelling movie. Yeah, I mean, you, you much like Anna at an opera became sort of lost in a reverie of your own emotions. So, yeah.

I think that this is a movie that, like, plot description doesn't necessarily speak. I mean, it does speak to the themes of the movie, but it's like, I don't know. I think everyone's behavior in this movie, you know, the way that they're interacting, acting tells a very different story, tells a deeper story. What do you mean by that? Because I'm interested in, I think you're right, but I want specifics, I guess. I guess to speak kind of grandly, and I'll get into the granular, like, behavioral things that get me on this track about this movie. I think that this movie isn't the grief, the, you.

you know, nature of love is a stand-in for something else. I think this movie is about the realization that there is no God. There is no afterlife. Spirituality is not real. And I think what you see in this movie, like, I think one of the most striking lines, one of the most, like, things that the movie hinges on is, who told me there was no Santa Claus? Yeah.

And he basically guesses who it is. Right. It's one thing that a lot of the critics, including Roger Ebert, who was very positive on the movie, got hung up on. They think that this third act is some hokum. They think that there's these incongruities to, even if you think that he was Sean, you know, there's evidence to say that he wasn't. And they think that, you know, if he wasn't Sean, there's these things that you just can't explain. Of course you can explain. This is a kid who's guessing.

Well, it's fascinating. And I think Ebert sort of does get to that in his review, which is, even after the movie explicitly tells you, no, he was faking it, no, he was putting this on, people don't want to accept that. People want it to be true. There's people in the movie. There's people in the audience who are going to want it to be true so their mind will allow it to be true because they want it to be. Which puts them in the same position that Anna is in, which I do love when a movie does that, when a movie manipulates it. audience into the same psychological position that its character is in. But it's not just Anna.

It's that scene where he correctly identifies who told her there wasn't a Santa Claus, where you can see it on the faces of people like Arlis Howard, where because this one thing, you know, happens to like, it's like the pinpoint of like, well, you can't explain this. So how can you explain that there would be no God? You know, it's, it's, there's a certain degree. where he is manipulating is not the right word, but because he can pick up on these cues

or he can find a way in from people's willingness to even entertain the idea that he might be the reincarnated Sean is a way in for him to read their gestures, whatever. Yeah. And I think it's important

that he is the age that he is, the age that he is, because even if he was two years older and he was a pubescent kid who had a little bit more life in the world, it would be really hard to separate that he, because he is doing something conscious. Yeah. But I think at that age, it's still subconscious. Whereas if he was, you know, a preteen or a teenager, it would be incredibly crazy. And I think the casualness of it, not just his age

where he is still at an age where he might believe in Santa Claus, that element of it. Do you think this whole ordeal was how he found out that Santa Claus wasn't real? Because he thought he was Sean. The movie is about finding out

Santa Claus isn't real. The movie is about finding out there is no afterlife. When Anna has this, like, complete breakdown at the end of the movie sure it's the idea that like whatever glimmer she was still holding on to her dead husband in her heart in her mind yeah he's gone and not only is he gone like the type of devastation that she's experiencing is the type of devastation not just when you lose someone but when your concept of the world and your concept of right

uh what you know there what type of spiritual existence there is in the world world, all of that is not true and that you have been a willing participant in a, you know, basically a philosophical lie, a fraud, a fraud. Yeah. And Jonathan Glazer specifically has, you know, said in interviews at the time, you know, he doesn't necessarily believe in an afterlife, but he wasn't saying it in the way that it's like, this is what the movie is about. This is just my interpretation of what the movie is ultimately about. Sure. And it's, you know, when you look at the actual behavior of these characters, they're all reverting into this kind of childlike state, you know, like, Anna as the way she communicates is

very like clipped and, you know, I've seen plenty of interpretation where it's like Anna is reverting to a childlike state. And like, we'll talk about the bathtub scene, but it's just like, what do you do with kids? You just throw them in a bathtub. That's literally what that scene is. It's not an erotic scene. No, not at all. Not at all.

It's literally just like two kids thrown into a bathtub. But it's also like her new fiancé, the fight that he basically has with this kid is like some shit out of a playground. I love that scene where he like pushes. He's kicking my, he pushes the piano into the doorway and then climbs over it. It's my favorite thing that. Danny Houston's ever done on film. And I also feel like, we'll get into that. Danny Houston's great in this.

And he's incredibly perfectly cast on when we'll sort of, we'll get into that. I like your interpretation of it. Mine is closer to yours than I thought it would be, but it's sort of a lateral away from it. And I don't, I hesitate to say that this is what I think the movie was about because I, I suspect it's not what the intention of the movie was about, but it's definitely the takeaway that I have. from it, and definitely after seeing it this time, I'm more sure of it than ever that this is sort of my take on the movie, which is, I don't think it's about how the afterlife isn't real. I think it's about how love isn't real. And, and ultimately, because this movie does not hang together psychologically, and I think that's intentional. I think there's the

psychology, you get it even at the end of the movie, where they basically just sort of throw up their hands and just like, I don't know why this happened. Like, it just sort of happened. This kid sort of, you know, decided that he was Sean and, and now he's cured or something? Like, who know? Like, psychologically, the fact that when Anna decides that she thinks that it's Sean, and I say decides because I do feel like it's an active decision, it does not seem to come from a place of, I, I knew Sean. I loved Sean. This is, I feel that this is Sean by the way that he speaks and by the way that he moves and acts. Anything that would psychologically indicate this person that she loved and married and lived with and was dedicated to. And that's not what happens. What happens is Anna decides that she's going to believe this. Because she wants to, because she's, you know, grieving, because she's not 10 years later fully over

this guy. And when she realizes that he was never Sean, when he sort of eventually says, I'm not Sean, the things that sort of fall away from her, and I think this is a big part of her sort of breakdown at the end of the movie, as I see it, is I wanted this to be true, so I made it true. And it's not because I could feel in this person, if I was thinking that I could feel in this person, this love that I had, this person that I knew, it wasn't because it ultimately ended up being a fraud, being a lie. So was all of this thing that I thought of as love and dedication and devotion to this person, just a projection from me onto this person who I decided all those years ago that I was in love with? Is love ultimately just a projection, just a thing you project onto other people? And ultimately, the only person in this movie who knows that he's not Sean from a psychological perspective is Anne Hache's character.

And even she sort of has the cheat of she knows it's not him because she knows about the letters. And she sort of has the inside track onto how he pulled off this fraud. But even still, it's mostly just that like she is the only one who sort of looks at him as just like, you're not Sean. I knew it the second I saw you. And this is the person who was having this like, you know, illicit affair. She's the adulterist. She's the, you know, she's the bad guy in that scenario.

And I think the movie, to me, I walk- She's so fucking good. She's so fucking good. We'll talk about it. Even that, I feel like, is this kind of reversion into playground interactions because she's like, you're not hers, you're mine. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're totally right about that. Even the sister also has a moment of just like, you're not Sean.

Stop talking about this. Like, we're not doing this and, you know, sort of stamping her foot down. But I don't know. I just like, that's what I walk away from this is that it. It's, it totally, which is, again, why I think it's fascinating that you talked about, like, is it just that we know a lot of queer people who, like, who, you know, who are really into Nicole Kidman, really into birth? But I think it does sort of take this idea of this, like, this is heteronormative love. This is what we have accepted as these very sort of normal notions of romantic notions of love and love that survives beyond death. And ultimately, it's just, ultimately, to me, I walk away from it.

It's just like love doesn't exist, loves a projection, loves a thing that you project onto somebody else. And when you decide you want to project it onto somebody to a totally different person, this same exact love, you can because it's like a movie projector. And you can move it from this wall to this wall. And I think one thing that, you know, regardless of how you interpret this movie, that is incredibly important, is this idea of making an intentional choice to believe something. because, I mean, like, for my interpretation of it, and, like, especially considering where Glazer is coming from, it's, you know, ultimately it's saying you have to make a conscious decision to believe in an afterlife. You have to make a conscious decision to believe in a god or any of that. And part of this, like, reversion into childhood for all of these characters, I think, is ultimately, like, well, why is this movie called birth instead of death? Because it's, this reversion into a childlike state, you know, this, where you are naturally prone to, you know, believe in, you know, something engineering everything and not, you know, things just happening the way they are. Even at the beginning when, you know, Danny Houston's giving his speech at the engagement party. And he says this like, really kind of like telling on himself thing that he doesn't realize where he says, you know, a year ago I asked her to marry me and she said no. And then a month. ago, I asked her again, and she said no, and I'm here to tell you that I finally got

a yes. And you're watching this, and you're just sort of just like kind of laughing at him for not realizing what a chump it makes him seem like. But also, again, to me, it underlines the idea that, like, what we think of as love is mostly a decision to be in love, a decision to decide that you are going to enter into this state, you know, that is love. And she's entering into, it's fascinating to me that their big reconciliation scene at the end of the movie comes in a boardroom where it is essentially a decision. It's also the scene where she says the wildest shit where it's just like, I'm blameless. You can't blame me for doing it. Anyone would have done it. You can't blame me for doing what I did. And I think that's wild. It's the

only time I can imagine ever siding with Danny Houston again. Nicole Kidman in a scenario ever where I was just like, you absolute fucking lunatic, the balls on you to walk into this guy's office or whatever, to walk up to this guy and just be like, hey, listen, anybody would have gotten in that bath with that kid. I don't know what you, you can't blame me. And I just thought that was very funny. But one thing I want to push back on you about is the idea that Anne Heish is the one person kind of standing. ending against this because I do think Lauren Bacall is part of it. And that's

one of the reasons why the I never liked Sean. That made me laugh so hard because it literally is a two second scene. They cut to it. She goes, I never liked Sean and then they cut away. A lesser movie would cut that moment entirely. You're right. It's two seconds long. She's just like almost

throws the line away. But it's so important because like it really to me and like my interpretation of what the movie is really underlines the fact that she is not a believer. Oh, no. I agree with that. I almost don't care if you were, Sean, because I don't like you if you are. Like, yeah. Oh, I love, the degree to which she hates that kid is so pure and so wonderful. I also love... She's the type of atheist that's like, if God exists, I don't want a part of any part of it. I love how much this movie does not require you to

sympathize with this kid at all. This movie is like, yeah, I bet you hate this. kid, I kind of hate this kid too. And apparently the movie was initially going to be, from his perspective, he was going to be the protagonist, and they overhauled it like weeks before it started.

I could not imagine a more different movie than one. Like, everything is different about the movie if it's coming from his perspective. I can't imagine overhauling this movie before they made it. Because, like, just on a craft level, yeah. This is a very imposing

movie in that like everything seems so intentional like even if you don't get it I don't think you can really argue that this movie is just like fucking around like every shot every cut feels like you know an immense amount of thought has gone into it like I don't know there's something to the way like certainly not the visual style of it but there is something a little hitchcockian about this movie that like sure oh yeah all of the narrative pieces go into this kind of very dark psychological study that, you know...

Yes. It just doesn't seem like the type of thing that they're like, you know what, let's correct course on this and, you know, have to come up with whole other shots and locations. It's just, it's absolutely, it's a complete 180 psychologically from, from what the movie that we get. It's so important to us that we don't know, we don't have. any kind of in to this character.

It's so, it's so crucial. And I think that's why a lot of people who don't like this movie to the extent that they didn't like it in 2004, I think they get hung up because of that, because we don't really have an in with this character, because it just, like, if you're not engaging with it on, like, not to be shitty, but, like, if you're not engaging with it on the level that you and I are right now in this discussion, and I think the fans of the movie are, you're just going to be like, oh, it's this like mystic child who like seems like this spiritual being, you know, like you're just going to, I don't blame people.

Because the movie doesn't hold your hand. I think it's very easy to fall into that trap with this movie. I don't blame people for following that path either because the movie does set up this idea of, I don't blame people for wanting to follow the plot thread because it's just like this movie does set itself up with a very intriguing plot point of, what's going on here and you and I don't I wouldn't like it if the movie was so hostile to the idea of wanting to find out and I don't think the movie is necessarily hostile to the idea of wanting to find out what's going on I don't think it's particularly interested in like that's not what it's most interested in and so I don't blame people for watching the movie and just being like oh I guess this thing that I cared about is not ultimately what the movie cares about and here is where we part ways you and Jonathan Glazer and me And that's fine. I don't necessarily, I don't think it makes the movie bad, but I also, I don't blame an audience for being like, well, fuck my drag, essentially, just walking out of there. And it's like, okay.

I think ultimately, whatever the intention is behind the movie or whatever your interpretation of the movie is, the end point is a pretty harsh, like, audience distancing. Are you talking about the scene on the beach? or where it leaves off with them. I'm just saying where you're going to come out the other side of this thing, whatever you think the movie is ultimately about. Like, it's not, you're not going to think something warm and cozy at the end of this movie. No. No. No.

So, like, yeah, I'm with you in that, like, you know, if this is just not your cup of tea, I understand. What I don't understand, I mean, like, what I don't have patience for are the people at the time that thought that this was some type of pedophile. I mean, that seems a very, like, a very juvenile way of, of reacting to this movie. Like, I mean, like, you watch, you watch that scene and, like, it's so... There's nothing titillating about that. There's nothing scandalous.

There's nothing exploitive about that at all, at all. No, I mean, it's shit you could see in a Home Alone movie in terms of, like, what are you actually, like, what is visually on screen. But also, like, when they're together, it's so obviously shot with... body doubles and green screen, like a spliced image. Right, if that's your concern, if your concern is that Cameron Bright is being exploited in the making of this movie, then that... You haven't seen the movie. Right, right, yeah.

He really is a uniquely off-putting cinematic presence. Can we say that? Can we say that about Cameron Bright, almost 20 years later? I do believe that he has had a tortured history, so we don't, you know, we don't want to... I'm not piling up. God, I'm just saying... Talk shit about it. But he does have a unique present.

It works for this movie. I don't think it works against this movie. I think it works for this movie. Right, right. Well, no, because there was also this movie God Send, which I think is an Antichrist movie. He was in the Butterfly Effect. But, like, he was kind of became quintessential for, like, creepy kid.

He's in a movie. I talk about a lot that hardly anybody has seen, I think, called Running Scared, which is Paul Walker and Vera Farminga, and it's one of those... Paul Walker, like, goes down on Vera Farminga, right? Yes, that is one thing from this. They are a, they're married, and Cameron Bright plays their neighbor, this sort of, like, kid of a Russian immigrant neighbor who's, like, part of, like, if not part of the Russian mob, just like a street thug part of some sort of gang or whatever and the father gets killed or or something terrible happens to him and the kid saw

something and so now the mob is after the kid and it becomes this sort of like winding long dark night of the soul for Paul Walker who's got to protect this kid and he runs a foul of a mob and it's sort of this like the city like hyper violent right hyper violent but also like the city becomes this like sort of we're talking about Hannah when we were in our Chesel Beach episode about how like in Hannah all of a sudden that movie becomes like a fun house mirror Alice in Wonderland kind of thing

of just like this environment isn't real this thing that we're sort of moving through and in Running Scared like the city becomes a dark cartoon nightmare of like black light imagery

and dark corners and everything is really heightened And at one point, Cameron Bright gets seemingly, we think, rescued by this couple played by Elizabeth Mitchell and Bruce Altman, who literally, like, out of a Hansel and Gretel fairy tale story, become this, like, nightmare child abductors who, like, lock him in a cage in their home among all the other children that they've abducted. It's a wild fucking movie. Who is this movie for? It's so good. It's so, like, I caught it on cable one night, on, like, HBO. or Showtime or something like that late one night.

And I was like, what is this movie? I think I maybe remember hearing about it a little bit, but what's going on? And I caught it early enough that I was like, I'll watch it. And I was could not, like, even if I was tired, I wasn't going to be able to fall asleep because I was so, like, locked into this movie. It was really amazing.

And so now I will, like, evangelize this movie to any and all who will listen. But Cameron Bright, again, plays this kind of, affectless kid who you know Paul Walker is projecting onto the fact that he's like I gotta protect this kid because he reminds me of my kid. I don't think it harms this movie that he

like his cinematic vibe is creepy kid. But like I do wonder if it you know was maybe a little bit more of a cypher kid instead of creepy kid if people... But he brings that vibe into he's in the one X-Men movie he's sort of like that. He's in the Twilight movies and he's kind of like that even though he's a bit older in that.

Like, it's just sort of a vibe. Yeah. All right. I want to talk about Anne Hache now. This is our first... Anne Hache is great in this movie. This is our first Anne Hache movie, although I'm positive I have advanced my opinion before

that she is one of the five best actresses of my lifetime. Like, she's so talented. And she's, you know, screw loose, and she's a kook, and she's got... you know, obviously, like, I don't want to make light of the fact that, like, she's got problems. She's had, she's been upfront, you know, at times in her life about the fact that she's got problems. But she's also just a real kind of a live wire of a person. And I love that about her.

But I also just feel like if we treated her on the level as we do all these other sort of, like, great actresses that we have, I think more people would realize just what an insane amount of talent she has and how incredibly just skillful she is at playing. The type of actress who can just show up in a movie like this and you know that something is a miss. She's both a personality actress and a skill actress. And sometimes you usually get one or the other, right? You get an actor or actress who is just so charismatic on the screen.

They jump off of the screen and they're a sort of. star and their magnetism will pull you through any role that they're in, and that is valuable and great, and I love that. And then there are other actors who show up and they work, right? And they burrow their way into a character, and they find their little niches and crevices and whatnot, and they captivate you in that way. And I honestly feel like she's one of the few people who does both. She has such a natural charisma and a natural sort of magnetism to her, and yet she's so good at burrowing into these roles and these sort of, and she's always almost, for a very sliver, small sliver of time, she was playing leads, right? Her six days, seven nights psycho remake

Return to Paradise era, where she got a little bit of time to play some leads. But usually she's playing supporting characters. This role reminded me, again, sorry to be the, you know, the fool who got horror vibes from this, but like it reminded me of her role, and I know you did last summer a little bit, where all of a sudden... I always forget she's in. I know what you did last summer. One of the best parts of I know what you did last summer is all of a sudden she shows up. And you know, in this movie, you get her at the very beginning. And she's always hanging out in the back of your head about, like, we got to figure out

why Ann Hayes was burying that box in the park, right? Like, what's happening there? And so by the time she shows up again, you were like, I knew it. I knew she was going to be important to what's happening in this movie. And I literally jotted down, by the time she's in that scene, I said, can you imagine anything more terrifying than Anne Hache knowing exactly what a little liar you are? And it's just like, the way she looks through this kid when she shows up at that door, it's so exciting. That was the part where I was kind of like pumping my fist and just being like get his ass. It was great.

Well, there's the scene where you like think that she's going to like punch this kid in the lobby of this apartment building. and then another family comes in and it's like they break apart and she's like, hi, hi, how's it going? Yeah, have a good day. But yeah, you really do think she's going to beat the shit out of this kid. I love her so much in this movie.

She's so great. She's spectacular. Her career at that point, this was sort of a, if not exactly a rebirth, no pun intended. This was post Ellen DeGeneres, post, call me crazy.

That was the title of her memoir where right before 9-11, I remember, there was a lot of sort of tabloid-y news stuff about, you know, Celestia and, you know, all of the, you know, kind of wild stuff that came out. We need to write a potentially insensitive, like, what was going on in celebrity culture around 9-11? I always want to because it's Anne H. Celesteia. It's Chandra Levy. Remember the Washington Indy? turn who had gone missing and there was that whole like that was like i always it's glitter i mean glitter is technically after yes yes there was a whole yeah everything that we were talking about we immediately stopped talking about but so after that after the allen breakup and the celestia thing um she was a little she was kind of nuclear right where you know she wasn't really getting cast and things i remember she had been on everwood when was she on everwood it was like it was around this

time actually 2004 to 2005 she had like a guest run on everwood as a love interest for treat williams character and i really liked her and um and so around the time of no i'm getting things mixed up sorry because of one of the the that initial run of of fame for her was the donnie brasco volcano wag the dog six day seven nights psycho remake like that whole thing and that was 97-98. And that was when she was, like, on the cusp of, she wasn't in the supporting actress conversation for things like Wag the Dog and Donny Brasco, but she wasn't not. Like, I think she got a critics prize for Donny Brasco. At least, I think, National Board of Review. So, like, ultimately, by the time it things got, like, got to, like, Golden Globes and Sags and

Oscar, she wasn't really in that, uh, uh, in that realm anymore. But, like, she was on the outskirts of that conversation. That was very exciting. And so this 2004 is this kind of, like, second wave of her. Where it's just like she gets a, she's in that movie, John Q with Denzel Washington. She's in birth. She's in, like I said, she's on Everwood. She was on nip tuck for a short little stint there.

She was on Allie McBeal for a short little stint there. So she never questioned. quite recaptured that feeling of late 90s, like, oh, she's going to be a thing. And whenever you would see her then in the, like, 2000s and onward, it would always be a little bit of a, like, when you see, like, when Ali Sheedy would show up sort of later in her career, and you'd be like, oh, remember her kind of a thing. She can still bring it, but you're not going to see her more than like once every couple of years in a movie. which is a super bummer because, again, she's so talented. She's so incredibly wildly talented. We love Anne Hesh.

And again, of course, as I must bring up, she is one of my top five, and that's probably even underselling it. Great soap opera to movie success stories of my entire life. She was like, when I first, first ever started watching soaps with, like, my grandma when I was a kid, she played twins on another world and I was actually talking about this on Twitter recently because I've gotten into one of my weird Twitter binges is I've been watching like old, old, old episodes of another world that are on YouTube just to sort of like wind down and do nothing and you know play games on my phone or whatever and she played twins on another world where of course one was the good one and one was the wild one right

And so they differentiated this by Vicky, who was the wild one, wore, they literally decked her out in neon, orange and green and pinks and sort of just like just the actual like Nerf football colored like neon that she would be wearing. And that was Vicky and Marley, who was the good one, would be in literal beige, just like actual tope. You know what I mean? Just like could not just like bland as you please. and the original banger sisters pretty much exactly and like vicky would like hop from man to man and she you know maybe lied about who fathered her baby and she's sort of like you know cause in trouble and and defying her mother that was the other thing is marley the good one grew up thinking her mother was her sister Donna was her mother and they were sisters and

they were in a very wealthy family and they had stables and whatever and then it was discovered when Vicky came to town. Who's this other person who looks exactly like Marley? Well, Donna had Vicky and Marley as a young girl who got pregnant by the stable boy, and then her father, her rich, wealthy father made her give away. They gave away the one twin and told her she died, and the other one she raised as her sister. And so Vicky comes to town and it all blows up and whatever, and it's terribly exciting and whatever.

And Anne Hache won an Emmy Award, I'm pretty sure, won a daytime Emmy Award for this, and then immediately left to, like, greener pastures. And I think that was when she got, no, because walking and talking isn't until the late 90s, and she left another world in the early 90s. But anyway, she's so good in walking and talking. She's so, that's just the thing is she's never bad. She's never, she's not. Todd Field licks her armpit, right?

Or does something with her armpit? Yes, I'm pretty sure. Yeah. The 90s were very armpit-y because there's also flirting with disaster. Also that. Walking and Talking, one of the great movies. She and Catherine Keener play one of the great best friend pairs ever. Anyway, I could go on and on all day about Anne Hache.

One of my favorite, I got to interview her at Tiff the one year, and I was just her and her and Sandra O together. And it was my favorite experience ever. It was just so wonderful. And they were so fun together. And, yeah, anyway. For that movie where they like fight? Yes. Yeah, cat fight.

What was the movie called? Cat Fight. It's called Cat Fight. It's called Cat Fight, yes. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Which I thought was pretty interesting. A lot of people didn't like it, but I thought it was pretty interesting.

Interesting time for Lauren Bacall because she's also coming off doing Dogville with Nicole Kidman. Well, and Dogville was released in the States in 2004, right? It was a canon, 03. Yeah, she's terrifying in Dogville, as is a lot of, as are a lot of people. She's not even the scary role in Dogville, but, like, she's so, everybody is so insidiously. threatening. Paddy's the overtly scary one. But like everybody in Dogville is like low-key scary, which I kind of, which is, you know, why you love Dogville. She's so, uh, dry. She's so dry in this movie. It's really amazing. Every line reading has this sort of just like, just

absolute, like sandpaper quality to it in the best way or is just like she is going to, This is why I call her the non-believer. This is why she is perfectly cast in this role. There is not, you cannot budge this woman. She is holding firm. She rules the room. And it's like, the time that you feel that she has lost the room is that scene I was talking about the Santa Claus scene where it's just like, I don't think it even really

cuts to her that much or it doesn't feel like it does. And it's like everybody else is kind of, if not wowed, everybody else is at least. opening to the idea that this child could be shot. There's also the scene. There's also the scene almost towards the end of the... It's after, I think, I've never liked Sean, right? Where it's where Allison Elliott's character has the baby, and Kidman's in the hospital sort of looking at...

Maybe that's Sean. And she just... And Bacall sort of like sidles up next to her playing her mother and just goes, maybe that's Sean. And it's so dry and so cutting. and I And so mean Yeah

And it's also like Maybe that's a sign that there's a god But it's so mocking It's so like dryly mocking It's so great It's just like hey As only Lauren Bacall can do We who love

Actresses being shady I think we as a culture have forgotten What Lauren Bacall said At the press conference for this in Venice Because someone's like Asking Nicole a question and Nicole, a question, and they're like, so you're a living legend, blah, blah, blah.

And Lauren Bacall pipes in and says, no, she's a beginner. I've never heard of that. That's fantastic. Good for her. I mean, like, I couldn't find video. I'm going to still keep trying to find it to be like, is she joshing or is she actually offended that someone called Nicole Kidman a legend in front of her?

I don't even know if it's necessarily offense so much as just like quiet amusement that somebody would, you know, say something like that to Nicole Kidman with Lauren McCall in the room. Like that's without at least being like without a nod, without a nod down the table towards the actual living legend to take nothing away from Nicole. But people did leap on it because like this is also kind of how I want to transition into talking about Nicole because people did lead on this like, you know, you. you know, and probably read into it as even shadier than it was meant because, like, the turnaround from Nicole Kidman winning her Oscar to people, if not just being sick of her, but people, like, wanting to turn her into box office poison, happened very, very quickly. Yeah, I think it was less the former and more the latter. I think definitely people wanted to push this idea that her movies were busts, were all busts, because it wasn't, it was, the art house ones didn't make any more. money. And of course, like, dog villain birth and fur are never going to make any money, so whatever. But the, she would then do, she would do the sort of one for me, one for them thing. She had a hard time balancing. Her one for thems were bad. She is suddenly the number one actress in Hollywood that everybody is approaching. Because, like, this is the first movie post Stepford Wives, too. And, like, you want to talk about, like, prying open that Pandora's box with a fucking crowbar. She's Deptford Wives and Bewitched, and there was this run of, and then later Golden Compass 2, where it's just like, she never managed to master the one for them part of it. And so the ones for her sort of then became more glaring for the fact when they would be, you know, really low box office or really weird.

She loved making these really challenging and weird and odd movies with different autos, and that's why we love her. And ultimately, in the long run... And that's where her best work come from. That's the thing is ultimately in the long run, I don't care if Stepford Wives is bad and got terrible reviews and whatever. I cannot watch Sepford Wives. It's a real easy solution for me. And same thing with Bewitched.

But this is also, like, the dynamic that contributed to Nicole Kidman, long-standing Nicole Kidman fans being among the most butt-hurt, including the two of us. Yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. Which is why I am living Sugar Cain style for this run of success she's having with being the Ricardo's because... Honey, Miss Nicole Kidman is here

and I am living for it. That's Sugar Cain. Exactly. Okay, but see, here's the thing. You can... I kind of jockeyed with this in my mind this morning of if Nicole Kidman has found the best balance between the two

now that she has become like prestige television actress. That's her version of the one for them almost and that is the version of the one for them, one for me now but she's not working the way that she used

to at least with these kind of daring attours. She's always said that she is director driven and I definitely think and she's talked about this in interviews that working specifically with Kubrick unlocked a lot of things for her and Gus Van Santan. But

I don't, I think there's just less and less of that. Well, she's about to do another really classic Nicole Kidman Autour movie with Robert Eggers with the Northman. So is that

going to be that though? Because her role's going to be small. It does look like she still gets to kind of be glamorous and it's within this huge ensemble. Whereas, like, when I think of her attour movies... You're thinking of a Nicole Kidman... She's still the Marquis Center.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that. Well, and... I mean, you're not wrong there, I guess. But, like, the Beguiled wasn't that long ago, and she was the lead of that movie, even though there was a big ensemble there. How to Talk to Girls at Parties was not that long ago.

And, like, she's maybe not the lead, but she's very, very highly featured in that movie. Uh, killing of a sacred deer. Like, this is... I get what you're saying, whereas, on the heels of Goldfinch bombshell prom, and I know you don't like being the Ricardo's, but I will at least grant you the fact that, like...

I like her at being the... Aaron Sorkin is not the kind of auteur we would think of, when we think of, like, the Nicole's boys, essentially, with the, you know, the Lars von Treers and Kubricks of the world and that kind of a thing. So I do get that. I think her career is ever evolving,

and I like that about her. And I think that you're mentioning of her, recent TV stuff is important in telling because there she's, you know, big little lies, top of the lake, even the undoing, and I know a lot of people really didn't like the undoing, and I know a lot of people didn't like Nine Perfect Strangers. I ended up liking both of those things, and I think she's very good in the undoing, and I think she's not the thing I would recommend for people with Nine Perfect Strangers. So, like, neither one of those are going to be in her, like, top 10 career flashbacks.

you know, at the end of the day. I mean, most, what I think is true about those things is like when Nicole does the populace thing, 75% of the time it's not going to be good. And those fall. But I think if you would, if I would trade, like, if your version in 2020 of Stepford Wives and Bewitched is the undoing and I'm perfect strangers, I think she's leveled up in that way. Right, right. Because it's, it's, well, because more people watch.

That's what I mean. more people are watching them. The undoing was very popular. For as much as people we know, sort of turned up their nose at it by the end, like, the undoing was very popular. And big little lies, I think people underestimate how great it was that that, especially in that first season, was so good as it was, was as good as it was, and it was as as popular as it was. That is a show that very easily could have been overlooked and we could say justice for big little lies and whatever. And it was, you know, so great. I don't know. Like, I think, I sometimes sort of step back and think about how great that first season was. And I think, like,

oh, we haven't, we, you know, it got eight bajillion awards and she won an Emmy and whatnot. Well, it's so rare that something at that level is that good, too. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Where it's like, it's so starry. It's, you know. Exactly. Exactly. For what it is, it is produced with a budget. Yeah. Arguably, I think she's probably never been more popular, just like in the wider sense, people who, you know, maybe turned her nose at her, whether it was doing things like Stapford Wise or this during 2004, definitely are on board with Nicole Kippman. And that's why I think she's winning this year. Yeah, I'm still not entirely convinced that Olivia Coleman can't take it.

But at this point, I think it's one of the two. I think we're just at that time where people are banding about a bunch of ideas. I don't see Olivia Coleman winning. If Olivia Coleman wins SAG, sure. Because she did not win SAG for the favorite. So it's like it's very possible that that voting body could be like, well, we haven't given it to her. But I still think it's going to be Nicole. I almost want to bet, but I don't want to bet against Nicole.

So, I'm... Listen, with Don't Look Up Rising, I am... Merrill's still not getting nominated, bitch. I'm now considering more that Merrill might have. No, it's not. If I win that bet, I cannot, I will not comfortably accept that money and I will donate it to some type of charity. Don't look up could end up getting nine Academy Award nominations. And because at the very, you know, at the one who is showing up weirdly on long lists and such is Kate Blanchett.

who is maybe worse than Meryl in that movie? No. Yeah, you're right. Because I think at least what Kate Blanchett is doing in that movie is a cohesive character. It's so obnoxious, though. I think she actually lands jokes, whereas Meryl, I don't know if she's one joke. Merrill's really at C in that movie. Kate, you're right.

There's intention in Kate. I don't like what she's doing. I think she's, I would rather she not be doing the thing that she's doing in that movie. she's funny with Tyler Perry they have a really good screen chemistry together I guess I guess there's things that I'm like

I hate the like serious minded Adam McKay movies I think they are bad for different reasons but also the same reason which is Adam McKay thinks everyone is so fucking stupid about things that we're not necessarily stupid about but I do think Don't Look Up is the most

successful of those three Oh, yeah, we disagree there. I think it's a big step down when you talk about the big short versus the other ones. Like, yeah. In terms of, like, a constructed movie, Adam McKay thinks he's making a fucking Oliver Stone movie, and I think it's embarrassing at some points, but, you know. The things I like and don't look up are, you know, Jennifer Lawrence, for the most part, and certain things that are sort of offshoots of Jennifer Lawrence.

I also think her recurrence. bit is legit. My version of Cape Lanchet in that movie is Jonah Hill. I think Jonah Hill is playing an incredibly obnoxious and off-putting character, but I think he's doing exactly the thing he should be doing. Yeah, I guess we do really disagree. All right. Mark Rylance, I think, is the worst performance in the movie. Yeah, I'll let you have that. Um, anyway, uh, do you agree with me that Nicole? You're, you're saying you think it could be Olivia Coleman. I think it could be Olivia Coleman. I don't think I, I'm not, I'm not, I think it's, I think it's going to be a race between the two of them.

I do. I think Kristen Stewart will get nominated. Again, we're still underestimating Gaga. People got really, honestly, I shouldn't count out Lady Gaga because everything. She's going to revenant her way to an Oscar because all of this shit about Patricia, who's not dead. Her spirit sending flies after her. Like, and I'm like, it's Lady Gaga not know that Patricia Regiani is. not dead and that she's alive.

I know that she's not intentionally doing a performance art of an Oscar campaign, and yet what she's doing is indistinguishable. It's indistinguishable. That's the thing about Lady Gaga is ultimately does intent matter, because what she's doing is indistinguishable from a performance art piece of what she's doing. And that's the way it is, has been in her career all the time. And it's no more apparent than what she's doing this year with. I am performing the art of...

Prop drinks. ...of campaigning for an Oscar. And it is riveting. Absolutely riveting at every turn. I love it so much. This is what makes me think she doesn't necessarily... She's willing to take the risk because she doesn't really want it. I don't think that in a Star is born was she performing an Oscar campaign.

I do think it in that. I don't... I mean, she was... She was performing... She was performing... people in a room talking point was... She was performing a different kind of thing. She was performing enjune.

She was like the Venice thing on the boat with whatever. Like, I do think 100 people in the room. She's performing... She's performing... High art serious actor. She was performing a girl discovered on a street corner by an autort. You know what I mean? Like, that's what she was performing.

And this year, she is performing, you're not wrong about the Revenant. Like, she's performing intense commitment. She's performing Daniel Day Lewis. She's giving you, she's giving you my left foot. She's giving you Leo and the Revenant. She's like, that is what she is performing. She is, it's, uh, it's realness in a different way. And I think if she gets nominated a third time, she'll be performing a different flavor of that.

Maybe she'll be performing, you know, a career achievement or, or whatever. But like, it's always something. And it's always, as I say, so entertaining. And so even if I don't think she actually, I actually don't think she's that good in House of Gucci. Although I do think... I jive with the people who are like, she's completely dead behind the eyes, and I'm like...

She's still giving me... As I say with Jared Leto as well, they're giving me what I wanted when I walked into that movie. And I wish the rest of the movie were on their level more often. But I still... If she wins Best Actress, I am going to, like, arch a confused eyebrow and yet

I shouldn't underestimate it because she has been The speech is going to be so good I really hope that like Lady Gaga could not be here tonight to accept her award for her Please welcome to the stage Joe Calderon

I'm not ruling it out I rule out nothing at this point Yeah Yeah amazing I do I am wavering a little bit That being the Ricardo's could be A Best Picture nominee but I think that's because the tenor around that movie is all centered kind of around Nicole Kidman.

People, I mean, like, Javier Bardem getting the SAG nomination, I think is a big indicator, though. And I will keep saying if I was, I think I would agree with you more if I did not see that movie in a screening room packed with guild members who were falling off of the rafters enjoying that movie. I'm not saying it's not going to happen. I feel slightly less convicted about it because the conversation around that movie is all around her. And I ultimately think if it's not a Best Picture nominee, it might actually, like, you know, help steer voters who like that movie in her direction. So it's like, I don't think it would hurt her. Here's what I will say, and I said this to you and Katie in our group chat the other day, is of being the Ricardo's, the lost daughter, and House of Gucci, one of those three will be a Best Picture nominee. And if it's only one of them, I think that ends up being like a huge indicator of where voter sympathies will lie.

I think I agree with the logic of that, though I do think being the Ricardo's and lost daughter are in best picture at this point. Okay, so we can talk a little bit about this, because we haven't really brought this up, of people being kind of like, meh about, or outright, like, rolling their eyes at Nicole Kidman getting a second Oscar for this movie. Well, that's dumb because she deserves to have two Oscars by now. This is my whole thing with... But I mean, like, but this is why it's interesting to talk about this with birth, because I think what people want is they want her to have a second Oscar for something like... They want her to win an Oscar for something that they like and the dumb masses don't.

And that's never going to happen. As weird as Oscar was ever going to get with Nicole Kidman is Mulan Rouge, and that's a musical. Right. It's the weirdest musical ever made. It's a miracle that Oscar fell in love with that movie. Right. But... She's never going to get an Oscar for the thing that you love that makes you feel smarter than other people.

That's just not how it works. That's not why people love something like, Berth, Calm Down. I'm not even necessarily talking about birth, but... I don't think I'm wrong. I think a lot of people want their faves to win Oscars for things that flatter them as fans. Well, I mean, or things that are just like cool. Yeah. Like, I get it.

But, like, I don't think it's, you know. I think that's, I think, I think, I think cool is, is, is the right way to put it. And I think that's sort of what I'm saying is the thing about Nicole Kidman, though, is that, like, I think most of her best work comes from the more daring work. than the conventional Hollywood embrace thing. So it's like I do kind of get... But when we say daring, what we mean is... When we say daring, what is she risking? She's risking the disapproval of a sector of people.

She's risking not everybody getting it. That's not how I was using it. I would think like daring. She's doing something more Utre, something a little bit more outside the lines of conventionality. But when we say it's daring, though, what is the dare? what is, you're risking something when something is daring and what are, I don't know, what are you risking? I don't think it's about likeability. I think it's about, you know, taking a creative risk. I would say like something like birth where it's like the camera is on her for however many

minutes and it's just her face and she, her body is barely moving, but she has to convey this kind of seismic mental leap that this character is making. That's daring. Like, that's hard. That's like acting without a safety net, you know. She could have fallen flat on her face. You know, but like Nicole Kidman is that level of actor that she can be tasked with something that is that challenging and achieve it. And that's what I mean by daring. All right. I won't disagree.

This is why we defend, this is why we defend Julianne Moore's Oscar win as like a good Oscar win for her because like she has to convey, like, there's the stuff where in, uh, still Alice where, like, her physical capabilities are starting to degrade, but that's not what's so impressive about that performance. It's like her ability to communicate, you know, what she's losing. That's so impressive. And that's what's interesting about that. Right. But a lot of people didn't like that Julianne Moore won her Oscar for that because it was not something that, because it was something that could be interpreted as appealing to people's sentimentality. And people don't. We've, I think, eloquently argued why people are wrong about that. Right. And I agree with that. But what I'm saying is, I think, in the broader sort of, like, why are people resistant to the idea of winning her second Oscar for something like being the Ricardo's?

And it's, I think, the same impulse is people don't like the idea that their fave would win for something that is as base to be sentimental or appealing to people's sense of Hollywood nostalgia or, or appealing to, like, a lazy voting behavior. I mean, my thing of why I'm okay with it for this performance, that I think is a good performance in a movie that I don't think is good, is like it does feel like a movie star performance. And, like, she is a movie star. And it's also at this register that I tend to prefer Nicole Kidman, where it's like, she's using the lower register of her voice. she's excellent at playing an asshole, she's abrasive, I like when she gets to be that way. And usually you see it in something like Margo at the wedding or eyes wide shut and not this super conventional thing like being the Ricardo's. But like it's something I think is underappreciated about her as a performer that I did like how it was utilized in this movie.

And I think she's in that mode more often, maybe even more often than not, where she's in this mode where she risks unlikeability or she risks. where she risks sort of, you know, the audience not quite connecting with her on a, you know, on every level, you know, even something like rabbit hole, where she's playing this grieving mother. And so, of course, our sympathies would go to her automatically. And yet there are scenes with her in Eckhart where she's, it's, you know, her character is being incredibly difficult to fully get on board. Whether she pushing him away, what's going on. on, what's happening. And I think you see that through line in a lot of her performances and especially her best performances. You know, something like, you know, it applies to birth. It applies to Dogville. It applies to, I mean, I don't, I've lost my ability to, to put myself in the shoes of anybody else

when they're watching the hours. So, like, I can't really speak to whether that applies to the hours at all. to die for, obviously. We got a 20th anniversary this year of the hours and listen. Chris, can I tell you? I don't even know if I should, like, this is probably for an off podcast conversation. You can cut it out of the audio.

Whatever. Like, I'll keep it in. We're all friends here. The degree to which I am experiencing vapor lock when it comes to the fact that I know I should be thinking of the hours anniversary stuff to pitch to various freelance outlets. and I am just at a loss as to what that should be

because I feel so much pressure of just like it's your time, honey, like, I'm in the spotlight and it's just like... I don't know what it should be because, like, I'll just say it, I guess we're all friends here, is like, there's not a whole... I mean, there's a lot of straight male editors that you have to do pitching to.

And they don't fucking get it. like, they don't get why this movie connects with people. They think that it's just Oscar bait from 20 years ago. They don't see this movie as having the life that it has. And, like, that it just, it's, it's one of my frustrations about a lot of things that I would like to write about. And, like, I have no illusion that I will get to write about the hours this year. I also, it's the realization that, like, I need to pitch something that goes beyond nobody loves the hours as much as I love the hours. Like, it's got to be more than that.

So I've got to, like, I got to, I really got to sit myself down in, like, sensory deprivation where I, you know, I allow my mind to really explore the space of what I want to ultimately write about the hours. Because ultimately, it is a movie I love, and it is a movie I love evangelizing, but it also feels very, very much mine. Like, I, you know, I want it, I hold it close to me, as you know, which makes me a big old dork, but it is nonetheless true. It is my favorite movie. Anyway. Those of us who want to like, you know, get work talking about this movie, it's hard to, like, find a thing that doesn't come across his age.

If anybody wants to pay Chris and I to do a 10-part podcast series about the hours to commemorate its anniversary, get at us. Because we'll do it. Right now, we could hop off this call and start another call and we could do it right now. We could do it right now. Like, honestly, us and we'll do it, and we'll do it great, and people will love it. Anyway, back to birth. Who else can we talk about in this movie? I really like the cast. It's a really fantastic cast. Nicole Gibman got a Globe nomination. We should throw that out there, that it did, you know, stick out for a while. One of the more interesting Golden Globe sort of lineups in terms of how they filled out the actresses who didn't get Oscar nominations. The only Oscar nominee from 2004 who didn't get a Globe nomination was Catalina Sandino Marino.

otherwise swank won drama Benning won comedy Winslet was nominated in comedy for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind Benning won comedy for Being Julia I should say I shouldn't assume that people know remember that that was the year of being Julia We literally talked about that last episode

We did Kate Winslet nominated for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind Emelda Staunton which was her big like Judy Dench and Mrs. Brown style breakthrough into the states where all of a sudden people knew who now you know a Meldes Staunton's name in Vera Drake. And then the Globes in drama went with Scarlett Johansson in a love song for Bobby Long,

a movie we did 8 billion years ago, and I don't even remember what we said about it. Nicole in Birth, Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, Volume 2, her second consecutive Golden Globe nomination for that role. And then in comedy, another one we did, Ashley Judd and DeLovely. We've definitely talked about the O4 Globes a bunch. Emmy Rossum in Phantom of the Opera.

You know I have a soft spot for Emmy Rossum, but she is not particularly great as Christine in Phantom of the Opera. And then Renee Zellweger in Bridget Jones, The Edge of Reason. That movie was pretty maligned, right? Or am I wrong? Yes. Yes. I thought so.

That's the Bridget Jones sequel where she broke down palace style is in a prison in the South Pacific. Wait, what? yes no i did not know that she teaches all of her fellow prisoners no Madonna songs no bad man it's it's it's I had no idea that's what the plot of Bridget Jones the edge of reason was and it's not like this movie sequel that just like is doing like bad stuff like sex in the city too this is a plot line from the book oh they could have cut it out of the movie when adapting it and they kept it. That's amazing. So of...

Bridget Jones's baby is a great sequel, though. I will say that. Bridget Jones's baby makes up for edge of reason. I haven't seen neither Edge of Reason or Bridget Jones's baby,

but I believe you. Bridget Jones's baby has like 15 Ellie Golding needle drops. It's exactly what you think it is and it is delicious candy. I'm sad that Bridget Jones in jumping from 04 to

whatever, year Bridget Jones' baby was 15, 14, whenever. Sure. Missed the KT. Tunstall era. That is true. That's a bummer because she would have been perfect for it. Okay, so obviously... I mean, there really should be like a Natasha Bettingfield Jukebox musical.

That's also the Bridget Jones musical. Yes. You're not wrong at all. If they're not going to do a Natasha Bettingfield Jukebox musical that is The Hill, then yes, it should be that. So obviously you feel like Nicole Kimman and Birth should have been an Oscar nominee. Who do you bump out of that Oscar field to make room for her? I don't love that Oscar field.

I think it's a good one. I think I disagree with you. I think... No, no, you're right. I do like that Oscar field. But the answer is easy. And this performance is the reason why my mind tells me bad Oscar lineup. It's an epening.

Yeah, unfortunately, it is an happening. gay people have yelled at me to re-watch that movie. Really? Who? I've never heard of anybody who remembers being Julia in any way. That's so funny. I've had multiple gay people. You're wrong about being Julia. I'm like, I'm sure I... We all have our own experiences, man. I don't think it's a bad movie.

I don't think it's a bad performance. I just don't think it in any way rises to the level of Oscar nominee. And it's very funny that we all collectively decided that it would be because Hillary Swank needed to challenge it in there for overdue people. Yeah, I think Swank and Millind Dollar Baby is good. Probably not worthy of winning, but, like, Winslet and Eternal Sunshine probably gets my Oscar that year. But, yeah, I think Benning and Being Julia is the one that falls away. I think Amelda Stanton rules in Vera Drake.

I love Catalina Sandino-Marino and Maria Full of Grace. I think that's a great performance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to see who I have now. Give me half a second to pull up my little word document. Certainly safe to say that I would have Winslet and Kidman in there.

Let me see if I have some ancient doc that I haven't updated in a decade. O4 is one of my secretly awesome movie years that I feel like people don't talk about enough in that it was really kind of stacked with greatness. that you don't necessarily see when you look at the Oscar nominations that you're, even though I think those are largely pretty okay. Oscar nominee? I don't know. Like, Johnny Depp in Finding Neverland's a pretty bad nomination.

I don't know. They're okay. But, like, there was more going on in 2004 with things like I heart Huckabee's and Born Supremacy. And, uh, now I kind of look up. You know what's weird about that globe? lineup, though, because, like, clearly they're reaching for drama nominees, but they didn't nominate Julia Roberts for closer, which, like, people forget how she, I wouldn't say she got the brunt of negativity towards that movie, but, like, there were even people who

liked what Clive Owen and Natalie Portman were doing that would I roll Julia Roberts in the same breath, but she's quite good. I think she's great in it. In fact, as I'm looking at my nominees for this year, she's there. She's in my top five. It's, uh, Winslet, Sandina Marino, Imelda Staunton, Nicole Kidman for Dogville is my Nicole Kidman that year. And Julia Roberts for closer. I would be not at all upset with Nicole for birth. I think I was just sort of planting my flag that I was a, I was a dogville person rather than a birth person, which probably says a lot about me, um, that year. But yes. Um, loved Uma and Kill Bill

Volume 2 but by then I was like I'm a Kill Bill Volume 1 boy The person I have that you haven't mentioned is Julie Delpy before sunset Oh that's a good one That's a very cool nomination I like that a lot Yeah Before Sunset's another one of those movies

They know they got a screenplay nomination But like There was just a lot of really kind of cool things even down to like I know I like Sean of the Dead a lot more than you do, but like Sean of the Dead, bad education. That was the year that Hero made its way into American theaters. Tarnation, that documentary that I really loved. I know we've all, Primer's a weird one to talk about now because Shane Carruth is a terrible

person, but I loved Primer, and I think it was really fantastic. This was a big Fox searchlight year with Sideways and Huckabees, and obviously focus features had Eternal Sunshine and Spotless mind. It was a, it was a really interesting year. And it's a kind of a bummer to me when I look and see, like, Finding Neverland gets a Best Picture nomination. And I was just like, God damn it. There were so many good things that year. What are you doing, taking up a spot? I was going to say, this is a Fine Line release as Fine Line basically died. And they had, like, they never really, because they were like the, I guess, indie label for New Line, which itself was like kind of, For a while, it was indie.

This is post, you know, Lord of the Rings. Yeah. So, but, like, they fine line got, like, the Shine Best Picture nomination. But this year, they have, in terms of, like, a good Oscar lineup, but also, like, movies that people were talking about. They have American Splendor, Elephant, the Palm Door winner. Yeah. Maria Full of Grace. A Dirty Shame.

John Waters' final film. Vera Drake, Birth, and the Sea Inside. Well, American Splendor and Elephant were O'3 movies, but yes. Oh, O'3. Sorry, I was looking at the wrong dates, but yes, they have. Maria Full of Grace, Vera Drake, Sea and Side all had their Oscar moments. So, yeah, that was, you know, a decent way to go out. Fine Lion, again, is one of those sort of indie labels that I don't really think about anymore because they have gone away, but, like, they had a good, they had a good thing going

for a while. They, um, they were, and again, a lot of these were like co-production with New Line. There was like, the line between New Line and Fine Line was always kind of a little blurry sometimes, but, um, Hadwig, the Anniversary Party, these were Fine Line movies. A lot of the Fine Line movies have had, like, rights and availability issues, which is so interesting to me because I'm surprised, I'm surprised that some of these movies don't up more often on HBO Max, but, like, birth is always one that people want to see in the Criterion Collection because, like, even the rentable version of this movie looks kind of dingy, like, this movie needs a remaster, but...

I'm surprised that it hasn't gotten it, because it is such a fave of, you know, the criterion-type crowd. I mean, here's the thing. Even if a movie becomes, like, kind of a cult classic or a reassessed movie, like I was saying with all those straight male editors not to sound like I'm just talking talking points, but like it really is an uphill climb to get some movies a certain assessment. Because like if the cult surrounding a reassess movie or a new cult classic is a lot of queer people, they think it doesn't exist.

I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I feel like there's a good number of movies that are, you know, supported. It may not be one of those movies, but, like, young adult is one of those movies. Yeah. Can't tell you how many times I've pitched young adult, and people are like, no, this is not a thing. And I'm like, okay. That's silly. That's silly.

I want to go through the rest of this cast for a second, though, because I do think it's a really, really interesting cast kind of top to bottom. Every role I think is cast really well. Alison Elliott, who is one of those actors who I never recognized by their face, but when I see her name i'm like oh right from the wings of the dove like she was so um so good and she's like everybody kind of takes the backseat to helena and in the wings of the dove but um she got a little bit of awards attention i remember for that movie she BAFTA nominated i'm pretty sure uh she when she showed up in this movie my immediate thought was and maybe it's because of the Nicole rabbit hole thing but i was like 10 years from now this role would be played by tammy blanchard like that is

the Tammy Blanchard role in the movie. And I almost wanted to sort of like time machine it to the future and get there. But I like her. Arliss Howard is always going to be one of my faves. Longtime spouse of Deborah Winger. So great in, oh, what the hell was the, that AMC show about the codebreakers that now I'm going to forget the title of. Oh, it was so good. Anyway. Kara Seymour, who was sort of having a moment in the early 2000s. I feel like you mentioned... Thank you. I'm having my eggs hobby. You mentioned you've got Mel, but she's also in adaptation around that time and a few other things. But Rubicon, Rubicon is the Arliss Howard

show I was thinking of. Anyway... I've never heard of this television program. Oh, it was really good. James Badgedale is in it and Miranda Richardson is in it. Quite good. Quite good. It's very sort of like paranoid thriller, but super fantastic. Also, you watch Smash, yes? The guy

who plays Angelica Houston's husband in Smash, isn't it? He's sort of the... At some point, I always have to remind the world I still haven't seen Smash. That's wild to me, that you have not seen Smash. I know, I know. Not that, like, you need to be a complete person, although

arguable, but like, you just demographically, you fit the profile, is what I would say. I know I do. I know I do. Anyway, anyway, what else do we want to say about Burt? Burt. Burtz? It is the opposite of I Want to Move to New York movie. It's like the anti-New York movie to me. I want that apartment, though. I want that apartment she lives in with her mother. So bad.

Like, Duplex Upper West Side. I'm in very much. much in my Upper West Side moment, I realize that I just want to be a middle-aged rich person living on the Upper West Side, and I'm sorry, but I won't apologize for it. They keep cutting to this one shot, and I tweeted it today because I was like, where is this? Where it's like, the street sort of curves, and you can see there's like a highway, like an on-ramp to, I'm pretty sure the FDR, and there's like a roundabout. And it also, like, the park is like on the other side of the roundabout. So I'm like, is it like one of the corners of the park? I don't quite know. I kept trying to like place it geographically and it was kind of driving me crazy.

And I still don't quite know where it is. But I'll figure this out. I'll work on it. Maybe by the time this post. Two people that I really want to bring up that I think they do some of their very best work among amazing careers that like if we're talking about this in term of Oscar, when people talk about justice for birth, I feel, I personally feel very strongly, but like the two people, I think, get brought up a lot, aside from Nicole Kidman, are Alexandreplas score and Harris Savitas as the DP for this movie. Harris Savitas never got an Oscar nomination, right? Never got an Oscar nomination. Which is perverse. Just utterly perverse.

It's also why I'm like, this movie needs to be remastered because it's some of his best work. He, like, he was a fucking legend while he was here with us. And like, this movie needs to look better than it does in any available, current available form to honor his legacy. This movie is stunning. Birth has two shots that sort of, that I've seen

sort of video essays about the shot type. One of which is the one at the opera where it, you know, we've seen this in a few movies actually now. People sort of like... What more can you say about that shot that hasn't been said a million times? People coming to great and sometimes painful

realizations about themselves in their lives. while watching something often at the Metropolitan Opera House in New York City. You can see the fucking reflection of the stage in her eyeballs. It's her in this. I often think about Anna Pacquin in Marguerette, which feels like an echo of that scene. There are others. And then also, this movie has one of those great, often repeated, but I love it every time. And this one takes a different tone of it is a person walking down a crowd.

Street in Manhattan and they sort of are lost among the hubbub, but the camera sort of like keeps on them and you're sort of meant to feel a sense of kind of alienation of them going on. I've seen it referred to as the Tootsie shot because it's that shot and where they cut to Dorothy Michaels in costume for the first time. And you've seen it in Working Girl and elf and a bunch of movies. And I was sort of surprised and delighted to see it. crop up in here because this is a decidedly less delightful movie less sort of the tone is definitely a lot different than in Tutsi and working girl and

certainly elf but it's you mean to say birth is less of a common I'm gonna advance that notion I am a daring daring person but so this movie you're you're supposed to take something else away from that so yeah he's great I think about the shot where she appears with the cake and all those candles. Yes.

I think about like, where he's, where we know he's in the hallway of the apartment, but she doesn't because she's turned out the lights and sort of, we in the audience now know more than the characters do, and there's a sense of suspense in that because we know that when the lights turn on, he's just going to be there. And, uh, yeah,

I love that. The, the shot that like, we shouldn't have maybe dismissed the, uh, the stuff about the bathtub scene because, like, this isn't a movie, like this,

Movie does actually, like, go there and wants you to be uncomfortable and, like, is concerned with morality in a certain way. But the shot where it's very tight on her face and he reaches up and you see his hands and he has these very small hands touching her face in this romantic way that's, like, incredibly jarring and, like, just a very effective shot. Yeah, I agree. It's a... And then the score. a plos score, which was the first time that I ever remember taking note of the composer's name, and, like, I still think it's one of the best things he's done. Oh, absolutely.

I mean, the scene at the very beginning with the husband jogging through the park and then he drops dead at the end, with that sort of tuteling flute sort of like a woodwind score, is um it's great there's as many times in this movie the score seems to be doing the opposite of what the what what the story wants you to feel then and then sometimes it'll go with it sounds like very four seasons like spring or something but it's this snowy yeah it's it's really effective it's really good and it basically kind of launched him into this like highest echelon of respect among film composers basically all at once i don't remember Did he have any big major scores that got attention before this one?

There was one, but I think it was also this year, and I don't have my tab still open, so let me open that. But, like, yes, this is the time that he's, like, launching into suddenly doing six movies a year and such, and they're all, like, the big movies, you know. I also want to mention, of course, Jonathan Glazer, who's only at this point directed three feature films. We'll get his third, or fourth, this kind.

year, supposedly. What is it called? Do you remember? I forget the title. I believe such the circumstances are that, like, it's probably not the title. Oh, De Plau had also done Girl with a Pearl Earring before this. That's right. That's right. I do remember hearing some praise of that. But yeah, Jonathan Glazer directed Sexy Beast in 2000, birth in 2004. Nothing until Under the Skin in 2013, which is a really fascinating and wonderful movie. And then he's doing a adaptation of the Martin Amos novel, The Zone of Interest for A-24, or at least- shot in the village, Vowschwitz. Oh.

From what I understand, I don't believe it's being filmed in the grounds of the camps, but I believe it's shot in the village. Interesting. And then, of course, he's a guy who... Sorry, finish it. No, I was going to say, we can anticipate a heavy movie. Oh, for sure. He's a guy who came from music videos

I love any director Much as I love an actor who came from Soaps, I love a director who comes from the realm of music videos His big ones He did a bunch of stuff with Radiohead Including Karma Police, which is the one that I Remember most of all, but then

Also, he's a video of the year MTV Video Music Award winner for Jamiroquai's Virtual Insanity, which I think most people can sort of picture in their head the thing with the treadmill floors and all the furniture

sort of moving from one side to another. What a fun video. What a great little song. It was a nice little moment Jamiriqui had in the culture, I feel like, for a second. Birth. Birth. Incredible movie. That's like my version of

moaning Murph into, you know, the time space continuum is me going on. and on about birth. You, you, in a hospital bed, recovering from something or another and just going, birth, birth. Yeah. Now this sounds like a moor where she's just like constantly yelling hurts. Hurts. Oh, no. Once again, we've taken things to a darker place than we wanted to. In the birth episode, who could have predicted that? Yeah. Should we move on to the IMDB game then? Yes, let's. Would you like to explain the IMDB game?

Sure. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that is not enough, it becomes a free-for-all of hints. That's the IMD game.

Fantastic. Would you like to give or Gesper first? I think... Would you like to bury the letters in the ground, or would you like to unearth? Excellent choice. I'll give first. So I went the Nicole Kidman route. We talked earlier about the fact that the same year as birth was released, she also had the Stepford Wives, which was pretty much a flop. But one of her co-stars, I believe, plays her husband in this movie, is Matthew Broderick.

Ah, Mr. Sarah Jessica Parker. Indeed. Matthew Broderick coming off of the producers, the utter certainty that Matthew Broderick would be a draw for the Stepford Wives because of the producers. No, it's the other way around. Stepford Wives is the year before the producer. Oh, coming off of the producer's musical, like Broadway version.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. You're right, you're right, you're right, yes. Stepford Wives is way better. People just don't know how to have a good time. stuffford wives is not that bad I don't remember much about it at all beyond the fell like I remember what happens in it but like I don't remember the experience

of watching it I mean but by 2004 no no movies like these are being released is the problem because if it was released in the 90s it would have been fine it would have been fine the same exact movie in the 90s no one would have had a problem with

except for Faith Hill Faith Hill doesn't need to be in that movie anyway Matthew Broderick definitely not and the Steppard Wives is on there. I would say Ferris Bueller is. Correct. Ferris Bueller's day off. I would say election is. Correct. Election.

Now I'm wondering if any of the Lonergens are there. I wonder if Marguerette shows up for anybody. Maybe we'll find out soon. No, you can count on me as not in there, even though I do think he's billed above the title for that movie. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. is their voice work. No.

Okay, so no Simba. No Lion King. Yeah. Apparently everything the light touches is not his kingdom. Um, uh, probably some 80s stuff then when he is the, like, number one build star, like, like war games? War games. You are three for three. Okay. I think it's going to be a bunch of these, but not like, what was the Godfather spoof movie?

The freshman. The freshman's not there. Like, oh, no, no, no, no. I know what it is. It's the cable guy. It's what? The cable guy. It is not the cable guy. Sorry. It should be the cable guy. It's not the cable guy. One strike.

Okay. I don't think it's going to be like Biloxi Blues. Hmm. Is it? Is it the producers then? It's the producers. Oh, okay. You had your finger on it and you never, you never guessed it.

I was running out of things to remember that map. Broderick is in that I said, no, it's not that. Yeah. Yes. I honestly, I think that's a pretty well representative known for for Matthew Broderick. Sure. I think that's pretty good. Cable Guy, yes, could definitely be on there.

You can count on me. Talk about re-assessed movies. Cable guy is good. I think that, yeah, I think people really kind of came around to that one after a long, long time. But yes. So for you, we talked about Nicole King. Kidman being in somewhat of a little odd Golden Globe, Best Actress Drama lineup. For you, I have pulled, shockingly, we have not done this performer.

I think I know why we haven't. Because we used to avoid Marvel movies. I pulled Scarlett Johansson, nominated that year for a love song, for Bobby Long, probably our most forgotten episode that we've done. So you're, I remember things about that movie. If you're picking this, then I imagine there's not more than one Marvel movie there, Don't tell me if I'm wrong. I'm just going to guess that for the moment.

We, no, we used to just, like, not do Marvel people, period, because, like... Right, but the reason being that it's no fun to guess it if you're trying to guess for, you know, Avengers movies or whatever. I think part of the reason if she is no longer dominated by Marvel movies in her known for, It would be because she got Oscar nominated for Marriage Story and Jojo Rabbit, so I'm going to guess both of those. No. I will only take that as one guess because I should have told you there is a voice performance on here. It's just not actually credited as a voice performance, which is strange. Her. It's her.

It's just Samantha, not Samantha voice. So wait, so Marriage Story and Jojo Rabbit are both wrong? They're both wrong. Wow. All right. Those are two new. Oh, so I'm going to get... I'm going to count that just as...

No, those were two guesses. Those were two guesses. Give me my years. Okay. All right. Your years are 2003, 2003, 2001, and 2012. 2003, 2001, and 2012. 2001, I'm guessing, is Ghost World?

It is Ghost World. All right. Good for IMDB. 2003 is lost in translation. Yes. And what's the other year? 2012. The Avengers.

The event. Yes. All right. What a weird known for. It's an odd known for. It's definitely odd. It's definitely a little odd. I wouldn't have even predicted that the one Marvel movie that does show up would have been the Marvel movie that showed up.

I would because she's more featured in that one, I think, than she is in Ultron. And by the time you get to like end game or, uh, uh, and Infinity War is just a lot. It's too many people for her to show up. I feel like she's more visible, I guess, in the Avengers. I don't know. Plus it did make quite a bit of money. Anyway. True.

All right. Well done. That's our episode. If you guys want more, This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscopuzz.com. You should also follow us on Twitter at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Joe, where can listeners find more of you? Oh, I'm all sorts of places. You can find me on Twitter at Joe Reed,

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next week for more buzz. Bye. Oh Oh Yeah