This Had Oscar Buzz - 183 – Margaret (with Patrick Vaill)

Episode Date: February 28, 2022

#TeamMargaret, your day is here! This week, we are joined by actor Patrick Vaill to discuss the contentious backstory and reemergence story that is Kenneth Lonergan’s Margaret. Originally filmed in 2005, the film follows Anna Paquin as Lisa Cohen, a New York City teenager who witnesses a horrific accident and her search for restitution when she … Continue reading "183 – Margaret (with Patrick Vaill)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I just need to talk to somebody who doesn't completely misunderstand who I am or what's going on inside me. I feel like you and I used to relate to each other really well. I feel so bad about what happened, and I'm trying so hard to do something about it. The worlds of one would leave me a lie, and yet you will weep, and know why.

It is Marguerette, you mourn for. Hello, and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that doesn't trust those blog, one bit. Every week on this had Oscar buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my short-skirted prep schooler, Chris Fyle. Hello, Chris. I apologize for my use of Strident. I'm sorry that I use the word wrong, but you know what I mean. Please, please continue to beat my podcast.

house house. What a tart you are, Chris Foyle. We have, this movie has been sort of in the wings for us for a while for a discussion. Even before, and we'll invite our special guest in in the second, but even before our guest this week kind of claimed it, we've been excited to eventually do this movie because there is so much to talk about. All right, this is my question for you before we do anything, Chris.

Okay. How long did it take you to stop feeling pretentious for calling it Marguerite? I mean, that's the title of the movie. Because my answer is, I'll let you know when it happens. That is the title of the movie. If it's supposed to just be Margaret and not Marguerite, blame Matthew Broderick for his correct line reading. I am a Rust Belt Boy, and whenever I say Marguerette, it feels like, Like, I feel very Barthalona about it.

You know what I mean? It's just, it feels like a little... Your natural inclination is to call the movie Maggie. Peggy. I call this movie Peggy. Which is actually one of the, like, one of the cuts of the movie was dubbed the Peggy Cut. And I'm now just realizing why that is because Peggy is. Okay, by who, though?

Because Lonrigan's like, don't look at me. Right. Oh, I mean, the grand mysteries of the many different cuts of this movie. We'll talk about it. I'll be interested to see what cuts we all watched because there were definitely two of them that are available to rent on Amazon. And very exciting to get into this movie. There's a billion things to talk about, and I don't want to get any further down the road without inviting in our guest who requested this movie especially. And the second that he did, I was like, well, this has to happen immediately because that's exactly the exact right choice.

We have with us actor, film enthusiast, drama desk nominee, which I think this is the first time we've had a drama desk nominee on our podcast, Chris, but we'll double check to make sure if you saw. Noted drama desk nominee, Katie Rich. Right, exactly. Katie, quit hiding your drama desk nomination next time you're on. We'll talk about it. Hot Judd from Hot Oklahoma on Broadway. It is our good friend. Patrick Vale. Welcome, Patrick. What a thrill. I'm so, so happy to be here. Thank you very, very much for having me. This is like a really, yeah, I'm completely, completely thrilled to be talking about this movie with you both today. You are consistently one of my favorite people to talk movies with because I feel like we share a very similar wavelength when it comes to Oscar movies and

sort of the Oscars as a whole. This was a thing we, you know, bonded over very early. And I feel like this is a perfect marriage of a podcast and podcast subject for you. Because holy mackerel, the story of Marguerette is... Absolutely, just as epic as the film and as winding. So we'll get to your Oscars origin story soon enough. But I do, while we're talking about Marguerette, why was it, that this was the movie that when I said,

what would you like to cover for us, that this was the one that jumped to mind? Well, so it was always sort of, you know, for I think many people that when it was still sort of hidden and not able to be seen, it was sort of everybody's white whale, right? And it was like, what is this movie? What's this movie called Margaret?

You know, because we hadn't heard Matthew Broderick pronounced it correctly for us. Exactly, exactly. And so it was this thing. And then, you know, it is very inextricably linked to actually to my Oscar's origin story, really because of its star Anna Pac-Wan, who I think is just tremendous in this movie. And it's one of this like, holy hell, like, have you seen her in this? Like, can you have you seen what she can freaking do? and um and so i really just always thought like what if what if this had had just a very clean

peaceful birth and had been given to us as the rightful follow-up to you can count on me from this like exciting new film director and what if it had just had a peaceful coming to us all and it seems almost like the same kind of tragedy that the film depicts It's this sort of, you know, if you win, you still lose kind of thing, that it's this beautiful sort of sad, but ultimately, like, I don't know, maybe life-affirming story of like, but like the movie and also the movie's release. So, yeah, it felt kind of just something I feel like I would love to talk about this movie for hours and hours and hours. So I was sort of like, well, this would be a great choice. yeah I think Chris when I mentioned this to you that this was Patrick's choice I think you were quite pleased oh I was like yep done when can we do that that's that's perfect um it's I definitely want to talk about when we get into the movie I'm so glad you brought it up Patrick the just the idea of what would the what would it have been like for this movie had it had you know its original intended birth um Even if that meant that there was still some, like, delays, but there weren't all the lawsuits, you know, and it got a normal release.

I'll be excited to talk about that. But, like, as far as talking about this movie for hours, my one thing about doing this movie is, like, will the, and I felt this with things like hustlers and, you know, other movies that we are really passionate about and love is like, it would take so much to do, like, I'm almost nervous to talk about. this movie because I know I'm going to like get on the other side of this recording and be like, oh, God, why didn't I bring this up? There's just so much to talk about that. A single episode feels like it'll never be sufficient. Oh, God. Yeah. No, I have like this list of things that are like really just the list of while I was watching the movie. Just being like, oh, I want to talk about this, which obviously is none of that is like important enough to actually even speak about. But it's just things that little things that you love about this movie that like keep sort of popping up.

And you say, oh, God, look at that and look at that. And, oh, it's just so freaking good. So which cut did we watch to prepare for this? Or did some of us do both? I tried to do both. I ran out of time. But I did the extended cut. I watched the three plus hour directors cut.

I did both. I did the three plus hour directors cut. And then I did the theatrical release to sort of actually sort of see which, you know, what it's like to have all the stuff taken. away. And, you know, it's not as fun to have it taken away. I'm glad that we have that perspective, so we'll be able to, because I'm watching this, and this is only the second time that I saw the movie, and the

first time actually that I've seen the three-hour cut. The only time I'd ever seen it was when it was theatrically released at the end of 2011, and that was the two-and-a-half hour cut, so I'm watching this movie, and I'm just... So you're one of the, like, five people that saw this, and its original run. I had, yeah, like, the absolute privilege of living in New York City. And it wasn't during its initial release because it was sort of... Oh, they put it back.

Oh, yeah. It snuck, they snuck it into theaters, like really legitimately. All of a sudden, I remember being on Twitter one day and somebody, and I can't for the life mean to remember who it was, but was just like, did we know that Margaret got released, sorry, Marguerette, got released into theaters, like, last weekend? Like, it was one of those things where somebody just sort of, like, must have noticed it on whatever theaters It was a very intentionally selected date

Which of course we'll get into the whole like Mishigas of it finally actually getting into theaters But like it was September 30th of that year As New York Film Festival is going on I believe after you know Venice tell your eye Toronto and it of course doesn't go to any of those festivals I mean like it was ideal kind of burying ground for this type of movie that like I do ultimately think it was kind of

intentionally you know it was released within a way to like not get people to see it but also I think they were probably still licking some wounds or afraid that it would not go over well or be treated as a disaster they would rather it just be ignored quietly put away yeah oh I think it was at cinema village too which is sort of like not absolutely particularly trafficked theater, you know. And when it went back into theaters in December, when finally the grassroots campaign sort of pressured them to release it again into theaters, it was back at Cinema Village, too. So it wasn't like it was, and like, love Cinema Village and, you know, very happy for all

of those, you know, West Village movie theaters, small little West Village movie theaters. But I remember seeing it, it wasn't on New Year's Day, but it was like shortly thereafter, like right after New Year's. And it was only in that theater for a few weeks. and, but I felt very fortunate that I was, you know, living in New York City and was able to see that. And the ideal way to see this movie, though, is to exit onto a city street completely alone into the bitter cold. Right, yeah. So we saw it in ideal circumstances.

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this is the, the New Yorkiness of this movie, I remember watching it again, I was, I remembered why I have this sort of odd feeling when I walk past that fairway on Broadway on the upper one side and I'm just like oh right like this is why like this is why I always sort of like stare down that fairway a little bit it's because it's right there at the bus crash scene in this film oh yeah it's amazing there's an interview with Lonergan

where he talks about how specific they were with the geography of New York in this movie that he really didn't want them you know like turning on to 74th Street and then turning a corner and suddenly they're in Greenwich Village. And it's so, it really gives this movie, this sort of unspoken texture that you just, it feels very, very, very alive in this way because of that. Which is why it would drive me crazy and not to like be the annoying like New York centric person, but like this is a New Yorkcentric movie, so I feel justified. Yeah.

But it would annoy me when I would read a review and they would be like their apartment on the Upper East Side and I'm like, listen, buddy. Like this is an upper west side movie. through and through, like, I don't want to hear about your upper east side. Like, Lincoln Center is coursing through the veins of this movie. Like, what are you talking about? It's a nuanced thing, but it is very specific to, like, Lisa's mindset in this movie and that, like, she's living in the most bustling city in the world, but she only exists

in a very small part of it. Like, keeping it kind of isolated to a few neighborhoods, basically, really, kind of gives you this sense of her world being incredibly small, but she exists in a very full world to the point where when she's like going to Jeannie Berlin's house, which might just be in a, like, a subway stop away or two, it feels like, you know, she's an adult going on some journey outside of her normal bubble or, you know. Oh, yeah. And then when she goes to Bay Ridge to see Ruffalo and like that's the one that's the one it's just like this might as well be in like Kansas as far as it's so far well there's a point there's a shot where there's a few shots of

this where you see sort of Lisa walking down at City Street and you should sort of like disappears into the crowd this very sort of I always think of it as the Natalie Portman and closer shot even though like I know it's like it goes beyond that but that's the one I think of and canonically it's referred to as the Tutsi shot but like the Tutsi shot yes and she's in Midtown and they show the 51st street sign and I'm like well that's fairly far south for Lisa like she's really far afield of her preferred environs like she's a 70 fifth street lady as far as I'm concerned but yeah it's the New Yorkiness of this movie really obviously appeals to me I've talked about this on the podcast before I am in a very upper west side portion of my life right now I watch

only murders in the building and sigh deeply, knowing that I would absolutely risk being murdered in my apartment if I could live in one of those places. Same deal with single white female, I would absolutely let Jennifer Jason Lee murder me on most occasions, but especially if I could live in one of those fancy apartment buildings. Oh, 100%. Wait, so Patrick, you alluded to it when you were talking about Marguerette, but your Oscar's origin story, we ask this of all of our first-time guests. And I'm sure we've, you know, discussed this over, you know, drinks on frigid bar, outdoor bar setups before. But share with us again, what is your, what would you consider your Oscars origin story? Oh, yeah. Okay.

So, you know, I think like most people, I sort of like was going along with my life, not knowing they existed until I did. And I guess it would have been the 94 Oscars for the 93 movie year. Anna Pac-Win was nominated for Best Supporting Actress for the Piano, and my parents, my wonderful parents who think that, you know, art is important and kids should see kids succeeding in art where, like, you can stay up because there's a young girl being nominated for something called an Oscar, and, you know, she's a little, she's your sister's age, and, you know, you can stay up with your sister, and you can watch and see, maybe she'll win, you never know. And, you know, I sort of sat and was watching and sort of probably was just confused, being like,

Who are all these people? What's going on? And then she won. And she's, you know, with all these other people are standing and sort of cheering this, like, little adorable girl who gets up. And in her little, like, blue dress with that little hat and her braid. A little hat. Oh, my God. I mean, that is, that's one of those things that I will put on YouTube.

Like, if you ever, like, need to turn your day around. It's just, like, adorable little Anna Pacquine just frozen up there and breathing. just heathing and going. I will say it right now, if somebody out there wants to do Anna Pacquen Oscars outfit for Halloween one year. I've wanted to do it. Oh, my God. You will be my favorite person

in the entire world if you can do that. That is genius. Because she looks like unlike, you know, oftentimes, you know, when like a kid goes to an award ceremony, they're sort of tarted up to look like a sort of small adult. But here was this like actual child struggling to lift this huge statue and sort of

has this adorable little rehearsed speech in her New Zealand accent where she thanks somebody named Beanie for taking care of her and off she goes and I was like oh and you know little I think I must have been like eight I was like what is what was that

what and then my parents are like go to bed and the next year I was sort of very very pointedly not paying attention to the Oscars because I was the Forrest Gump here. And I felt like somewhat betrayed by that film because my, well, for a sort of strange reason, which is my parents, you know, woke me and my sister up on a Saturday. I probably said, we're going to go to the movies. We're going to go and see a movie called Forrest Gump. And I was like a kid who was really into Oz. Like, I really liked The Wizard of Oz and I liked

all the books and I read the books and I loved Return to Oz. And I thought that you were saying you were, I was a gooped for a second because I thought you were saying, I was the time. I was the child who was into the HBO prison drama Oz. Yeah. Could you imagine? Well, God. No, but so I was really into like the Wizard of Oz. And in the Oz books, there is a creature called a gump, which is like a kind of moose slash donkey.

And it's a very sort of gentle figure that lives in a forest. And so I got really excited because I thought, you know, oh my goodness, we're going to go see a movie. It's about a gump that lives in the forest. And I was feeling like, you thought that forest. Gump was going to be the original Gregory McGuire. Exactly. I thought, oh, wow, we're going to go and see an Oz movie. I can't wait.

And then the movie starts and there's that feather and I'm like, oh, goodness. You know, and then it lands and there's Tom Hanks and I spent the, like, the first half of the movie being like, well, he'll probably, you know, end up going to Oz. Any minute now. Any minute now. It's going to happen. And

then it never did. So I was very, very upset by that movie. And so didn't watch the Oscars. That year, needless to say. But then the following year was like the year where I was rooting for babe and sense and sensibility, which I loved. But it was also the year of, I don't know if y'all remember the costume parade that they did. Oh, do I? Where they had the models coming out.

And they're like, here's Tyson Beckford modeling clothes from 12 monkeys. And he's like in a space suit. And Kate Moss comes out from sense of sensibility. And it was so, and it was so above and beyond anything my meager mind could grasp as to what was going on in my television. But all I knew is that whatever that was, I wanted it again. And I wanted it like injected into my veins because it was insane. And the pageantry and it was so grand. And then all these very, very important looking people.

these movies that I had seen in a theater were being celebrated on my television, and it was very, very wild. And then, I guess the next year would have been English patient in Fargo, where my parents somehow thought it was, like, totally cool for me and my sister to watch Fargo at that age. So that's amazing. I was, like, rooting real hard for Fargo. And, like, needless to say, I was, like, crushed that the English patient happened. And then, you know, the next year was Titanic, which I think for everybody, that was when I saw Titanic and then, you know, understarted, I had started reading Entertainment Weekly and especially saving the fall movie preview.

And so I had all these things I was looking forward to. And that was when I suddenly said, well, okay, so Titanic is obviously, everybody's saying this is going to be like this big Oscar play. But what about everything else? What else is there going to be? And that's when I started sort of becoming obsessed. with the Times art section and sort of staring at these movie ads and being like, what, what's that?

And like, oh, look, this studio has a different font in their theater listings than this one. Like, that kind of, like, real, like, deep nerd stuff. And so I said, you grew up in New York City, right? So you were able to, like, go and see these kind of artsy Oscar movies. Totally. And, you know, whenever they opened, rather than me waiting for, like, April. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a completely wild. And like my, so I made a list. I sort of wrote it on like a piece of, you know, spiral notebook paper of like the things I wanted to see. And my parents were like, Jesus, I don't have time to like go. So they were like, well, we'll drop you off. And my dad dropped me off on like a Saturday morning at the Lincoln Plaza cinema, my beloved Lincoln Plaza. And I watched the apostle by myself at 11 in the morning. and that's my favorite thing

I've ever heard in my entire lift at what age? Did you watch The Apostle? That's fantastic. I mean, I must have been, I was like 12 or 11 or 12. Just dropped off and I was like so thrilled to, first of all,

beat by myself in a movie theater, which meant I could get popcorn and not share it. But it also means that you are an adult. Yes. And you're also at Lincoln Plaza. So you're with like some like real stone called adults. You are amongst of years. yeah and like soup you're like not only are you an adult but you're aged and um right it was so then like

my dad picks me up and he's like how was the movie and i was like oh really great you know thinking i felt like such a freaking grown up and then he you know we take and like have lunch and he went and drop me off i think it like the sutton place theater some theater that's no longer there um where i watched kundon oh my god all by myself and like talk about not knowing what the hell was happening but being like, wow, just like, damn, Scorsese. Like, I didn't know who Martin Scorsese was at that time. Sure, no. I knew who Philip Glass was.

So that was my, I was my pretentious little child. So I was like, what, God, Glass did the school. I would have thrived as a precocious little New York City child. I have to say, like, I really would have. Oh, yeah, you do. Definitely would have. It was amazing. And so, like, you know, in that year, I ended up seeing pretty much, like, everything.

So then I got to be that little asshole kid. watching the Oscars who's like, oh, I think this one's going to win. But, you know, Julie Christie's really great in Afterglow. And just like total little dickhead. And so, yeah, that was sort of, and then it was, you know, I was a gone from there. The most popular kid in school talking to the other kids about Afterglow. Oh, I mean, I definitely came in when we had to do like, you know, reports at my school, like in front of like the whole upper school. And I'm like in eighth grade and I'm like mortified and I like, you know, hate everyone and everything. And I went in and was terrified of speaking in public in front of all these people. So what I did was I just did a weekend box office

report and I just rattled off the numbers like you wouldn't believe. And all these kids were like, well, you really know your stuff. And that was my big sort of like, you know, middle school success was like that. But yeah. So then it was sort of from there on out, I was pretty much a goner every year. And then, you know, the hours very much was another big stepping stone in terms of my, like, love of actresses. It's what we like to hear. Yeah. You're kissing up to us now and we appreciate it. Thank you.

That was, yeah, it was a huge one. And, like, that was also a big one in terms of, like, my deciding, you know, my deciding secretly that I think I wanted to be an actor. And. Sure. But then, because seeing, yeah, I had, like, you know, Nicole Kidman had had so that sort of fantastic run. of like Mon Rouge, the other's, birthday girl. And I was like, wow, whatever. If she can do that, then, like, this is worth actually doing.

And do you ever imagine, and it's got to be true, that there was somebody, some either critic or some opinion have her back then who was like, you know what the real best Nicole Kidman performance of this stretch is, it's birthday girl? Like, who was the, like, contrarian of contrarians, who was just like, you're all, you're all, you know, up a creek about this. It's Birthday Girl. That's the one. That's the Armand White opinion.

I mean, listen, I was that asshole. I was like, you guys really need to see Birthday Girl. You're really sleeping on Birthday Girl. I was so amazed because I was like, the first third of the movie, she doesn't speak. The second third, she speaks Russian, and then the third she speaks English with a Russian accent. Who else could do that? Probably a lot of people. But, like, you know, I was like, you know, she was, yeah, I was so completely into her.

All right, this is my favorite Oscar's origin story of the mall. Again, the more I imagine the life I never had as a little twerpy New York City movie boy, I saw. In our fantasy repertory theater, we will on your birthday program a double feature of the Apostle and Kundun. Yes. Just for you. Oh, my God. I mean, what a day that was. That was also always the fun of it.

It was like programming sort of things to see, to get to. pair things together. So I think I did, like, wag the dog in as good as it gets in one day. And, you know, a bug's life and ants. Like, Jesus. Oh, really? Just like keeping it on theme. Yeah. You really, well, to, like, judge the differences between the two of them and really get into the finer points of a, of, exactly, you know. Insect life. Yes. All right. Patrick, um, take a, take a sip of water, compose yourself. We are going to move into the 60-second plot description in a second. And I want you to sort of get your vocal rest for a minute or two and really be ready.

We were talking about this off mic before we started recording, and I said the plot description for Margaret could be either 20 seconds or 10 minutes, because it is, depending on how you want to sort of like generalize or not everything that's happened. Either nothing happens in this movie or everything happens in this movie. It's very like what happens in a meadow at dusk and I heart hook. That's nothing, everything. God, one of the great underrated scenes in all of cinema. We're talking about socialism.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about not covering every square inch of populated America with houses and strip malls until you can't even remember what happens when you stand in a meadow at dusk. What happens in the meadow at dusk? Nothing. Nothing. Everything. It's beautiful.

When we were going through this sort of Jean Smartisance, Not that she ever went away, but whatever. The Gene Smart summer that we were going through last year, and everybody, all of a sudden, everybody was on the bandwagon. And I would mention every once in a while just to sort of like find out who the real ones were. I'm just like, well, obviously I heart Huckabees. And the real ones would come back and be like, yes, absolutely. Because it's one perfect scene, you're the Hitler.

It's just one of the great line readings in her career. and I love her so much. All right, so we are this week talking about, if you've made it this far into the podcast and don't know, we're talking about Marguerette. I'm here to tell you. We're talking about Marguerite, written and directed by Kenneth Launergan,

meant to be released in 2006, was released in 2011, and we'll definitely get into that, starring Deep Breath, Anna Pacquine, J. Smith, Cameron, Jeannie Berlin, Mark Ruffalo, Matt Damon, Jean-Rano, Matthew Broderick, Allison Janney, John Gallagher Jr., Kieran Culkin, Rosemary DeWitt, Olivia Thurlby, God, this was the era of Olivia Thirlby being in everything. This movie, the original release of this movie, and when it was released, like, the Olivia Thurlby era existed in between that. It had begun and kind of ended. I know she's still working and everything like that, but, like, truly the golden age of Olivia Thurlby was within that span. Kenneth Onergan is in this movie himself. Sarah Steele, Michael Ely, who,

am I forgetting. There's, there's eight bigillion people in this movie. Oh, my God, Josh Hamilton. It depends on which cut of the movie you've watched. Right. Also true. Also true. It premiered, as we said, sort of snuck into theaters on September 20th, 2011, was re-released a few months

later after an online campaign. Hashtag Team Margaret. Patrick, I've got my little stopwatch out. You've got 60 seconds on the clock. Are you ready to talk about Margaret? Yeah, why not? All right.

Your time starts now. Okay, picture it. New York City post 9-11. A teenage girl named Lisa Cohen lives on the Upper West Side with her actress mother and little brother where she also goes to high school. Her father lives in L.A. and is planning to take her and her brother on a horseback riding trip in New Mexico. And Lisa decides she simply must have a cowboy hat for this.

She can't find one. But suddenly, as she walks down Broadway, she spots a cowboy hat on the driver of the M-104 bus and decide to playfully chase him down, trying to get his attention so she can ask him where he got it. he's waving back and they're both smiling in the sort of game and they're so caught up that they don't see the light change to red he barrels through it running headlong into alice and janny pushing a shopping cart from fairway lisa screams and cradles janny's head in her lap as she dies horribly lisa is traumatized and caught up in the drama and tells the police that the light was green and that everything was an accident but later her conscience catches up to her her She tries with the help of Janney's friend Emily to bring about a wrongful death long suit against the MTA and surprisingly pulls it off. They want a huge settlement, but everything is soured by her learning that prevailing doesn't mean you've changed anything one bit.

She goes to the opera with her mother and with the city and music around her releases into a kind of maturity and understanding of real loss and hugs her mother. Holy shit time. Perfect timing. Patrick, I have to tell you, when you ventured into the horseback riding trip with her dad, I was like, oh, he's fucked. Like, he's done for it. There's no way. When it was 30 seconds and Alice and Janney was still alive in your story, I was like, oh, no, there's no way. There's absolutely no way. That was impressive. You really brought that in. I'm not going to ask if you rehearsed for this at all because I don't want to get into your process. I will say I had the thing that I really wanted to, I mean, to talk about, but I felt, you know what, cut for time was the centerpiece.

seen with Ruffalo, but, you know, we'll get into it. Okay. No, we, let's jump ahead because that, half of my notes are about that scene. When she goes to Bay Ridge and she shows up on Ruffalo's doorstep with the, first of all, because it changes the entire movie, right? Where all of a sudden, him not giving her what she wanted out of that moment, not even knowing, I don't even think she knew what she wanted out of that moment, but her being sort of dissatisfied. she definitely wanted him to, like, be as righteous and, like, motivated by doing the right thing as she thinks she is.

I think he just wanted, she wanted him to, to honor her feelings about this. Everything in this movie is about she wanting everybody to honor her feelings. But the fact that he is mean to her in that moment and then she decides, well, now this guy must pay is the sort of linchpin of the movie. But also, I spent, and I rewounded and I watched the scene again because I needed to actually watch the scene because I found myself just looking at Rosemary Dwit's face throughout that entire scene, which is absolutely a rollercoaster ride of watching it because she is just absolutely fixated like a hawk on Lisa during that entire scene. Because first of all, she thinks this girl has been fucking her husband. Like that's absolutely concluded on her face. Yeah. It was just like, why are you showing up on our doorstep? What are you going to tell us? What fresh hell have you decided to invite in Pumice family? And she doesn't want to go inside the house because like she doesn't want them to have a private conversation. And then once she realizes what Lisa's doing, she's sort of puzzled by it. And like, but doesn't like her face doesn't soften one bit. But it's just sort of just like, why are you here? What is going on? And for like a moment, she sort of looks like she feels pity for her. But then it like, like, Like, ultimately, it comes down just like, you know, he's, what does she say?

Like, he, like, he's really messed up about this or something like that, right? Like, he's, he's taking this really hard and, like, wanting her to understand what Ruffalo's going through. But, like, she's brilliant in that scene. Holy shit. It's amazing. And also, and, like, the whole thing of, like, let her use the bathroom. Like, that, this sort of weird sort of, what is her? Yeah, why don't you want to let her use the bathroom, you weird out?

It's so amazing. And these screaming children behind her. And then, you know, like, and then when she, you know, they actually do go outside to talk. And then Rosemary DeWitt comes back out sort of being like, I need to check on this. It's so, yeah, she's incredible. I love that you zero in on Rosemary DeWitt first because this is exactly the type of movie that it is. That it's like these, when I say minor, like, somebody will come into the movie for two minutes and then leave and you never see them again. But like, that actor is still keeping the performance of their life.

And, like, fully fascinating that you can fully unpack. And I just think, not to say the trite thing, but I think it speaks to the movie we're talking about that, like, you could almost pick up any extraneous detail or performance. And, like, that just gets the ball kind of rolling in unpacking this movie. Oh, yeah. Well, and it's not an extraneous performance, but, like, I also wrote down, I was like, Alice and Janney deserved to be a straight Oscar for this movie. Holy shit. Amazing. How to,

like, talk about one scene, like, that she can make a moment in that scene funny. She has a laugh line in that scene. Right. It's unbearable. That scene is unbearable,

but then she still gets a laugh. And, I mean, she's playing a woman. And then the horror of it too, obviously, where like when she says, um,

are my eyes open? I can't see. Like, that is just like a just icy chill just like spikes through your heart it's crazy and that's like that amazing pacing of that of just then everybody freezes in this sort of sweet like little girl way that pack one says they're open it's oh that scene is also uh uh striking to me in it's i mean the movie's so dense that you don't really think about like the delay and the timing but like the movie does feel like a time capsule when you watch it and i think at the time it felt

it because you know culture had changed so much what's I'm always struck by rewatching that scene in particular is no one has a cell phone out recording it um right and like in the time from the from the movie filming to release that would have changed entirely yeah it's true but that scene is just unreal the the blood spatter when they try to do the tourniquet every time so stomach churning because it's so shocking and it's like

it's the type of gruesomeness that you don't expect to see in a movie like this Right But I also think it's Well the movie never shows her full body like you see it pans

past the leg so like you know Yeah you see her detached leg Yeah but you don't see Like a jump scare Right Oh my I mean Because you think she's trapped under the bus and then it keeps panning that and then oh that two second shot of the bus squashing her cart

oof yes yes and and the movie needs that scene to be as harrowing as it is to sort of fuel the engine of the rest of the movie or else you're not going to like you're never on board with lisa certainly throughout the rest of this movie but to understand understand why this has fucked her up so much and and to just sort of like it needs to it needs to hit the audience like a ton of bricks to justify this gargantuan movie because if and especially because it's not a 9-11 metaphor exactly it's a movie about sort of post 9-11 New York but it's not like but I can get into a read of it as like kind of a grand nine it's not a about 9-11, but like post-9-11 America and where we saw ourselves, or how we actually were in the world versus how we saw ourselves, especially like that scene, the brutality of it, like, is kind of necessary to kind of fuel that metaphor, too, on top of fueling the character arc.

Well, it's that thing of before this moment and after this moment, right? Before this moment and after that moment, nothing, you're, you can't see the world the same way again. You can't exist in the world the same way again after it. You're sort of fundamentally changed for a thing that didn't happen to you. You were a bystander for it, but you, there's, the fact that you're a bystander, but you're also implicated in it in a way that you couldn't possibly, you're, you're blameless, but not. You know what I mean? It's that kind of a thing and also then you're powerless to do anything about it and yet your attempts to do something about it just like feel like they are being more intrusive and obtrusive

about this kind of thing than you ever want them to be. I don't know, it's just like it's, it's fascinating to sort of like dig into those layers, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And the sort of subjectivity of it all that basically this thing happens that's a tragedy for this very specific person, and yet Lisa is somebody who internalizes it as her own tragedy. And then at her climax, she screams that I killed her is sort of this amazing, like, is that what you think you did? Is that what you think happened? And that we can't, this sort of very, very post-9-11 New York that like you didn't know

really, you couldn't know what anybody else was feeling, but you knew they were feeling a lot. Yeah. Well, and I mean, just like, I guess no point in going any further without just talking about Anna Paquan's performance here, because obviously, and up until this point, I thought it was interesting that she's in, I think, kind of the two great about 9-11 movies that aren't specifically about 9-11, because she's also in 25th hour. And I think of, and playing sort of, in 25th hour, she's the sort of side character. simplified version of this, where she's still this sort of like, she's the, you know, tempterous student, right? Who's having, she's having an affair with

Philip Seymour Hoffman or they're just flirting. I can't, I can never remember how far. I believe they have sex in the club. Right. But it's that same thing of just like, you know, hot to trot student kind of a thing, right? And she was kind of in that era where she was, I mean,

almost famous. She played one of the Band-Aids. She's in this kind of like young she's the one that says what if we do flower the kid right yeah right yes yeah yeah she's so good in that movie god damn she's so good in that movie um and so she's in this movie and then in the interim from when it's filmed and when it comes

out she gets cast in true blood which is also obviously an incredibly like sexually charged show sort of you know soup to nuts and so to speak and um so So this movie sort of kind of epitomizes, and she also, in 2000, she joined the X-Men series, which is sort of her big mainstream. That's sort of before True Blood, that's sort of the thing that everybody knew her for. But this is a really, it's fascinating to imagine that for five, six years, there was this titan of a performance that she had kind of locked away in a, roar and nobody had been able to see it. I think I just, I find that so fascinating. That's like all of that

time. I'm not sure if she's really given a major interview talking about the movie. She's maybe like talked about it obliquely while you know, promoting other projects. But like, I want someone I mean, maybe it should be one of us. I need an

interview with Hannah Pacquin specifically about this performance because like, yeah, what did it feel like to just like I mean, she's, she's, She's a professional. I'm sure she's not like, you know, whatever about it. But like, what did it feel like to give this like level of performance and just like the world doesn't see it for years? And then when the world does see it, you know, almost no one sees it.

Well, in the story, even when the world saw it was, you know, the release of it, the lawsuit of it, all of that stuff. And her performance, well, people who, everybody who saw the movie sort of walked away, being so impressed with it. And yet even still, it's overshadowed by the controversies of that movie, which is too bad. Well, and it's in this really interesting moment of, like, real creativity for her, too, because I believe it was shot for, like, you know, a month and a half in the middle of the shoot for the third X-Men films. So she, like, takes a break from X-Men to go and scream at Mark Ruffalo. And, like, and she had just- Just hang out with Jeannie Berlin for a week.

like calling her strident and like just sort of like throwing her entire every bit of her guts is like all over this movie and you know she had squid in the whale and she'd also been doing this like she'd been doing a bunch of theater and which I guess actually was sort of how she ended up getting this role was that she did squid in the whales the other one squid in the whales the other hot student role I knew there was a third one there in there somewhere but it really was like she was almost like a type of casting thing for her. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Well, and she played, she made her like off-Broadway debut in this play called The Glory of Living by Rebecca Gilman, where she plays a young sort of like child bride to this guy who she ends up being the one who like lures little girls in for her husband to abuse. And then she murders them and buries the bodies. Carla Famolka story. Holy shit. It's crazy. There was a real life, There was a real-life Canadian couple that that... Oh, it might have been that. Probably.

There's a Law & Order episode about the Melon Pompeo plays the woman. Oh, I mean, yeah. Anyway. And she got... I mean, I remember when this happened, it was like in 2002, oddly enough, directed by Philip Seymour Hoffman. And I remember reading, like, in the arts section, this, like, review from Ben Brantley that was like, this is the greatest performance ever.

And she was in this, like, an amazing moment. And then Marguerette seems sort of like the pinnacle of it. It's an amazing run. Well, and it's funny because she wins the Oscar when she's a kid. And like the history of sort of Oscar winning kid performances and their subsequent careers, it's like no shade to Tatum O'Neill who like has been through enough and she doesn't need my bullshit. But like it's not like Tatum O'Neill sort of blossomed into like this great actress of her era, right, or anything like that. And you look at Anna Pac-Wan's sort of immediate post the piano stuff. And it's Flyaway Holmes really the only big thing.

And she doesn't really emerge again. She's in Amistad, which I totally don't remember. Her being A is Queen Isabella in Amistad. So she must be just like at the game. It's got to be. And then, oh, and she's in Hurley-Burley, which I imagine is another, it's got to be another. Playing the Cynthia next role, probably. Yeah, she plays basically what is, she's a care package that's delivered to.

Right. Yes. So again, highly, right. So she doesn't really emerge after Fly Away Home. And it's funny that it's only Fly Away Home 96 and like Hurley Burley 98. So it's not really that much time for him going from, you know, kid to this. And obviously the sexualizing of her and Hurley burly isn't the point. It's supposed to be problematic. It's supposed to be uncomfortable. I remember I was such a pretentious little asshole. I remember being like, I want to see Hurley Burley. Why? I don't know. I hadn't seen the play, but I knew it was based on a play. And I knew it was like, you know, this sort of acclaimed playwright and, gosh, this cast. And I remember watching it. And I was 18 at the time.

So it's not like I was too young to understand it. But I've, you know, as I've said before, like I was, whatever ages I was when I was younger, I was a young. I was a young 18. I was a young 16. I was a young, whatever. And so I remember being like, I thought I would really love this movie. And I don't.

And it's kind of like, it's not sitting well with me. I'm sort of like, I'm the colat scola meme, right? Where it's just like, something wasn't quite right about that. I was sort of nonplussed by that movie. And I remember that felt like

almost like an early cautionary tale of just like, just because you think this indie movie that seems very cool, is going to be, you know, your ticket to feeling very, you know, special for liking this cool indie movie. Like, they don't always work out. And, and nobody ever talks about that movie, like, ever. You know, it's Sean Penn and Robin Wright and... And Meg Ryan, right?

Meg Ryan. Meg Ryan, Spacey, of course. Like, Sean Penn, Kevin Spacey, I can't imagine why that movie didn't sit well. One of the movie. I don't want to get into the, like, how. this movie would have been received in a vacuum just yet until we talk about the production history and we're still kind of talking about the movie.

But I do feel like the unfortunate thing of like this movie's history is that it didn't really get a chance to platform Anna Pacquin in the way that it might have. Yeah, that's sort of what I was getting to. And like she seems to be someone who wants to take a, you know, more like chill career. Because even like

during True Blood, like, you know, she got magazine covers and such, but like she wasn't, you know, hopping off like crazy, you know, it was like almost like a surprise for her. And I think she wants to have this more chill career, which you win an Oscar as a child, you know, what

what's your other choice. But, um, I don't know. Like, it feels like, if this could have moved the needle for anybody, if it, this movie didn't come. with so much baggage it would have been her because she's giving this like momentous like best of the decade style performance that yeah she it's amazing because like she she's playing a teenager has to be like one of the most authentic teenagers you have ever

seen in that it's like disarmingly so yeah disarmingly so and that like the movie is never trying to she's our protagonist but like and we begin Because the movie is very intelligent, we can get on an empathic level with her. But, like, it's a very, like, I don't want to use a word, like, abrasive. But, you know, there's... You're not wrong, though. There's a stickness to it. There's a holiness to it that's incredibly authentic about teenagers in a way that, like, you know,

we don't see it in movies because we just don't tell those type of stories about teenagers. But also, like, it is unpleasant. And I can't really wrap my... my head around how she can kind of get on those rhythms and like understand Lisa so well where it's like Lisa could just be pissed off because it could be you know teenage hormones it could be you know that thing two weeks ago that pissed Lisa off and now she's still brewing about it but like it's such it's such a real performance not to sound again tried about it but like there's a certain level of reality.

But I also think there's this like almost metatextual thing where the metaphor of the movie really comes alive in the performance but it never feels academic. Lisa always feels like a person even if she is representative of this idea that like

America is the world's teenager, right? Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the, The other thing is it can be very hard on film and television to get across the idea that somebody is incredibly self-centered or self-obsessed because the act of watching a television show about someone or a film about someone is you are centering that person, right? So it's just like sometimes I'll be watching something.

I'm thinking of Buffy the Vampires specifically because I'm watching an episode for this other podcast and there was this whole moment where everybody just sort of like turns on Buffy for being too self-centered and I think the everybody, the viewership sort of like were aghast at that with like, how can you say that?

It's just like, yeah, it's hard to be like, why are you so self-centered on this show that has your name in it and we're watching you because of you, you know what I mean? So it's hard to like dramatize that. Well, but one of the movie's mission too is that like, it is. about a teenager who is going through that process of the first time they really realize that the world is not themselves and like their feelings and how traumatizing that is

actually for somebody who particularly aside from going through a traumatic thing like Lisa goes through that process is traumatic but I also think it's nonlinear that's not an ABC thing well it's This thing where Jeannie Berlin says, it's not that you care more. It's that you care more easily. And she has that dressing down of her where she's right before she calls her strident. That scene is unreal. But this sort of thing that Pacquin does in her performance where she has this sort of ungainly physical life in it, where she's kind of almost lurching and she has this emphatic way that she listens to people as Lisa.

It's so off-putting. It's so wonderfully off-putting. And it, like, centers Lisa when it's actually about somebody else. That is this gorgeous marriage of, like, this physical life with text that's actually sort of combating that. It's, she's, she plays a teenager as so infuriating. And then as those scenes where she becomes like a runaway train and she just, you start to see her emotional life churning up and the tears start moving and the, and she picks

up her speed. and you as the viewer are sucked into her feelings because you're like, oh, God, this poor little girl. Yeah. And it's a complete masterpiece in terms of her work. It's like wild. Well, and the other thing is when I was sort of talking about that self-centeredness of it, and it's in concert with the way that Lonergan has decided to film this movie, where how do you dramatize somebody being so sort of malignantly self-centered? And it's, you show the rest of the world.

So much of the interestingness of this movie, the sort of, I, it feels very, you know, European for, and maybe I sound like a dull person for saying that. But like, in the way that it sort of like pushes back and, and widens the scope, you can hear other, so many in these scenes, you hear other people's conversation sort of like be louder than the one that we're watching. And it's all to emphasize the fact that it's more pronounced than the extended cut to. Very much so. Yeah. And I think, and I think that's why the extended cut. is more effective because what seems disjointed in the two and a half hour cut, which was why for people, like, that movie was released and like a lot of people really liked it, but a lot of people really thought it was a mess and really thought it was, you know, fascinating in parts, but ultimately didn't cohere and didn't come together. And I think unless you see that sort of extended cut where you really get the full scope of what Lonergan's doing, where it is just her perspective gets so like swall, it, it, it, it, it, it, fights for space with everything else that's going on around her, right?

Where there's this whole big city that is existing while she is having this little personal tempest, right? Where she's just like everything is like the most important thing. And the movie doesn't ever discount her because, again, it shows you that harrowing bus crash. Like you never are able to be like, well, she's really making a lot about this. But you also question why she isn't able to see that all of these people around her are also going. She never sees what her mother's going through until the very end.

That's what the catharsis of the very end of the movie is. They finally sort of like see each other, right? She never fully gives Jeannie Berlin's character the primacy of letting her take the lead in everything that they're doing, trying to, you know, get justice for what's going on. Like, God, all of those scenes where they're on the conference calls with the family in Arizona. And every single time Lisa just sort of like barrels over and takes over that conversation, it's so viscerally uncomfortable for me because I was just like, just, like, it's not about you. But anyway, so I feel like Lonergan, it's just a wonderful decision.

that he makes to film it in that way and dramatize this thing that feels maybe difficult to dramatize and it really comes across really well. I read this interview with him in The New Yorker where he talked about that exact thing that you're talking about where he said that usually what he looks interested in is that usually

when you see a character go on a journey and a story, you only see them in relationship to the story. Right. So you get a little bit, taste of what their life is like and then the big event happens and then you follow them through that event but his idea with this movie was well what if the event happens and then we keep everything else that we've already been seeing in terms of the setup going at the same pace and with the same amount of focus and so you kind of actually have lisa in a weird way like wandering into

other people's frames and making it all about her yeah and you get a richer understanding of that character because the canvas is so big and because it's not just about the bus crash. It's also about her bringing that bus crash into all of these other things and her abortion and like all of that. I mean, that scene is excruciating. Did you know I had an abortion last week? It cost $400. That's all the mention it gets in the theatrical cut. So it's kind of odd in the theatrical cut when she says that to Matt Damon, which is a whole other. like can of worms for the movie you don't see any of the process you don't see her fight with her mom when she is when she tells her mom it could be one of a number of men yeah uh you just

see her saying do you guys know i had an abortion last week so it plays incredibly strangely and at that point we're already like invested in lisa's emotions but also highly skeptical of anything that comes out of her mouth. It could be, in that version of the movie, it could be a lie for her to get a reaction. And it reflects how flailing she is at the moment. Or it could just as easily be true as not true, which, like, pulls off this really interesting effect in the movie,

um, in that version of it at least. But it's so similar to me to the, to the Ruffalo scene, too, because it's another one where she just sort of charges into this scene. She has, in her mind, I think, a reaction she wants to pull out of Matt Damon, right? She wants to make him uncomfortable. She wants to sort of put him on the spot. She doesn't get out of his reaction what she wants. And so then she has to completely, like, change course and change tactic.

And it's so, it's fascinating to watch that because you almost want to just be like, what did you want out of it? What were you looking for out of this exactly? And to watch her sort of be stymied, kind of in that way by, I can't remember her, the actress's name, but she was in Marevistown. She was the one friend who was angry at Kate Winslet in Marevies Town. But sort of her presence there. Not Julianne Nicholson. No, the one whose daughter had been missing at the beginning of the show who Kate was never able to find her, remember. And then she was, like, she was pissed at Kate.

I can't remember her name. Anyway, but I think sort of her presence in that scene, almost sort of like Rosemary DeWitts, kind of changes the alchemy of it a little bit. But, oh, I wanted to ask, because I can't remember whether this scene was in the theatrical or not, but the play rehearsal scene where. It's not in the theatrical one. It's not. Okay, I didn't think so. But the drama scene with Sarah Steele. Oh, yes, but yeah, where she and Sarah Steele sort of have the tearful sort of like, I'm sorry, I wasn't there for you after the thing that happened with the league.

But also the fact that like, what is her name, Angie, who was in the argument with Lisa in class about the war and about Afghanistan and Iraq or whatever, that she's just like, I don't feel like I'm a part of this at all. And I know that like from a tech perspective, we really don't feel valued in all this. Oh, yeah. Just the omnidirectional kind of self-centeredness of everybody, and the way that, like, this drama teacher is encouraging them all to sort of indulge in those sort of... And just, like, sitting there with a smile on his face through all of this. So it's like, this whole exercise is about fueling something for him, too. So it's like making these kids do this is a self-serving act for this teacher, director, whoever.

Well, and you wonder, you're just like, oh, how are these self-centered little monsters created? And it's just like, oh, right, this kind of thing. Yeah. Well, and also, like, it sort of underlines the fact that this movie is such a great theater movie, too. Like, it has in the depiction of J. Smith Cameron and, like, her life and how rich and texture that is. And also sort of, sort of, like, very nicely actually uneventful. Like, it's a job. That's where she goes to work every night.

And she's very invested in it and everything. But it's a job. And then, but then to have also the fact that Anna Pacquins, like, running the soundboard is perfect. in every single way that she's controlling everyone's volume. And then to have this hilarious sort of, I'm sorry, scene is so spectacularly great because it's not condescending to these people. It's just depicting it honestly, which makes it even funnier. Well, that's why all of the classroom scenes to me are sort of like that, too,

where it's just like it's both, it's irritating to actually sit through because it's just like it's teenagers being their most sort of, I mean, you've mentioned strident, but like it's their most sort of like certain of their own, like you give a teenager a little bit of knowledge about the world and all of a sudden they know everything about it. And they're just sort of like just screaming at each other. And then it's also the scene where they're talking about Shakespeare, about King Lear and that one curly-haired kid where he's just like, why isn't it about the fact that the gods are, you know, don't regard us all as flies? And I think I'm right.

And Broderick is finally just like, it's not what it's about. That's not what Shakespeare intended. And just like the absolute frustration. It's just not. There are scholars. And he's just like, what, like nine people in France in the 17th century? Shut up. Just shut up.

And then he like goes back to sipping his orange juice. I have that written down on my pad of paper of is this an unofficial sequel to election that this is actually Mr. McAllister. 100%. Now teaching at the Upper West. school. All right, we're at the hour mark. We really should talk about the production controversy of this. Chris, do you want to sort of walk us through what exactly happened here? Yes. After I bring up one note, and I am not trying to Cinemisins this movie, I have to talk about this. Because I... Oh, yes, you do. The thing that I was caught up on, like, I love that

this movie has an incredibly fluid relationship to time. By the end of the movie, I think a lot less time has passed than it feels like it has, which feels, you know, right for a movie about a teenager. But

in regards to, like, this being a theater movie, I do have some questions because how long is Jay Smith's Cameron off-Broadway play in previews? Because the day of the accident is when Jean Renaud meets J. Smith, Cameron, and is like, I've seen this twice

already. Okay, it's in previews. And then, like, some time passes. And then Lisa and her mom have a fight. And her mom's like, the opening is in two weeks. And I'm like, the preview run of this whatever play is longer than most off-Broadway production. It's clearly the play from clouds of Sils Maria, right? That they're in, like, clearly... It's just boardrooms, and I don't know what it is. Adapted for American audiences by, like, Daniel Sullivan. What is the great Broadway play about boardrooms that all of a sudden, all of these

other fictionalized plays are being set there? I can't think of one single, you know, famous play that was set in the sort of corporate set in it, and that's the name of the play. Right, yeah, that's, I love that it's called, like, controversy, and there's an ad for it on the subway when Anna Pacman's going into the subway and it's like a picture of J. Smith Cameron with like a red background. It's so great. It does feel like it's supposed to be some kind of like, like, Neil Lebutte kind of a thing, right? Like controversy feels like the name of a of a Neil Lebutte play. Yeah, that it's sort of, it definitely has that feel of like

office, like sexual politics because there's that like sort of icy blonde woman next to Josh Hamilton. Yeah, clearly Josh Hamilton's playing a son of a bitch. I don't know. We don't see enough about him but like you know that like come on Josh Hamilton's not playing a nice guy in that yeah exactly but yeah that play seems bad yes it does but I do actually kind of love how like you mentioned it is like just it's just a job for her but like what's interesting in terms of like this movie's relationship to like your experience in relation to other people is like she has a job that like strangers in it elevators we'll just talk to her about and like they seem to know and are more interested in it than

she is and yeah i i i think that's interesting for her character because we do get a little bit of it in a different way to what we are experiencing with lisa yeah there's also that great scene on the rooftop where she j smith cameron and john rano are talking about how uh ever since the review came out and the review was positive and now the audiences that had been sort of middling on it, now are giving them this great standing ovation at the end. And she's just like, she's talking about it. She's like, it's kind of annoying when all of a sudden you, you know, you can't really trust your audience's reaction.

And he's sort of pushing back and just like, why wouldn't you just be happy about it? And she's like, no, a lot of actors think this way. And Patrick, as an actor, I would like to know the veracity of that. Is that a phenomenon you've ever noticed? And does it make you think less of your audiences? oh well it definitely definitely happens and i'll tell you one you know one time the way it can really happen and be really that's when you do start really judging them is i remember doing a show that was in previews and it was doing really well people loved people were very sort of like

this is crazy and really fun and having a great time and then it got a times review that was not good and then all of a sudden everybody was sort of like arms folded, the audiences were arms folded and, like, it was just this kind of chill coming from the audience. Yeah, just being like, okay, we have tickets for this dud, you know. And then, you know, sometimes they'd be won over by the end because it was like, it actually did please crowds very often. But like, yeah, yeah, it's a really strange thing. I mean, I can't, I guess it's unavoidable and I don't really like, yeah. I always think about, I think in fact, I maybe even talked about it on this podcast before, the, the Andrea Martin in Pippen of it

all, where at one point, it was remarked in either the times or in one of the reviews or something about that, about how the audience erupted into spontaneous standing ovation after Andrea Martin's big trapeze number, which, for the record, was astounding and was really fantastic and, like, fully well deserved. But then every time thereafter, after this spontaneous standing ovation, now all of the subsequent crowds did it every single time. And I'm like, and it's not that it's not deserved, but it also feels like this kind of manufactured spontaneity, which I find deeply annoying because it's just like, just have your own authentic experience. I got, I felt that way a little bit when there were like the rowdy cat screenings, where the very first one where people were just like, everybody spontaneously sang along to Mr. Mistophilies and just like, and then everybody else seemed like they were chasing their own.

little moment with that. And it's just like, I get it. I get the, we all want to have fun with this. And I do too. But it also feels like it's a little bit of like, you know, have your, get your own, you know, moment of spontaneous joy. Like to quit cribbing off the student next to you kind of a thing. 100%. I mean, yeah, I think I feel the same way. And I mean, the other like quick sidebar that like about reviews and things, that's seen where Anna Paquin is reading her the review. and she stumbles over the word bravura and she's like bra and j smith cammin goes bravura like it's so good if there's any word that she knows and has been waiting for it's brie yeah it's so fantastic j smith cameron in this movie we got to say we got to take a moment incredible so good

in my view of this movie it should have gotten three supporting actress nominations it should gotten Jeannie Berlin, Alice and Janney, and J. Smith, Cameron. Like, that's... In a very strong year for supporting actors, I was sort of looking at my own sort of list the other day. I was like, where did I put everybody? And, like, I already, like, my ballot that year was already sort of crowded, and it's none of the Oscar nominees. No shade to, like, you know, any of the women who were nominated that year.

I mean, this is the same year as young adult. Like, this is very filled with, this year is very filled with female performances that I am, like, justice for X. My ballot is Carrie Mulligan and Shame. The three women from Marguerette are in my top. I did sort of a top six. Carrie Mulligan and Shame. Amy Ryan and Win-Win

is up there. Roseburn and Bridesmaids, which again, like, McCarthy is nominated for Bridesmaids, and there is nothing I don't like about that performance. I love it. But like Roseburn's even better, I think. And the one that nobody's ever really has seen is

Degmaro Domenchic in this movie called higher ground that Vera Farminga started and also directed. And it was the first time I had ever really noticed, Degmara Domenchik in it, who also, Chris and I have enthused about this year for her performance in The Lost Daughter, because she freaking rules in that. She's so scary. Every word out of her mouth is innocuous, but she will kill you. She will murder you on that beach.

Yeah. And then again, and like I said, it's Jeannie Berlin, J. Smith Cameron, Alice and Janie. it's and also Sarah Paulson for Martha Marcy May Marlene which was another movie we got to do that we at some point we got to cover that to this list I I mean my ballot would be something like that but I would also throw in Colette Wolfe in young adult yep um which another great brief performance yep but that movie doesn't work if she doesn't give the exact performance absolutely that she does in that scene absolutely um I do think it's a good transition point to talk about like that whole line of, well, suddenly the audiences are, you know, giving standing ovations, et cetera.

Oh, yeah. In terms of, like, the production history and eventually talking about how we think it would be received because, like, I remember when this was coming. Like, everybody was like, oh, this was released two weeks ago and we didn't notice. And, like, I was somebody who kind of hounded the production history of this movie for years because, like, you were saying earlier, Patrick, it was like, this movie is just, like, lingering around, like, the white, shark for everybody, and it's partly because there was like two set photos of it, one of which is like Matt Damon and Anapak when having coffee

in a coffee shop, and the other one was like a paparazzi photo of her covered in a blanket, and her face is bloody. So it's like, what the hell is Kenneth Launergan up to in this movie? And like, we don't know, and there was some reporting, and I tried

to weigh back machine it to like get specifics, but like there was some, like, there was some, like, like, you know, leaked information of like, what is this movie about? Why is it taking so long? It's all in the edit. Apparently, it's running over three hours, et cetera, blah, blah.

But I think when the release actually happened, like, there weren't that many initial reviews. And people were dismissive. And I think people were dismissive because they knew the production history of it. Like, the immediate response. wasn't, you know, this masterpiece has been buried. The immediate response is this is a troubled production. This movie is tainted in somehow, in some way. And that's where you get these people that are initially, like, seeing that theatrical

cut and be like, oh, well, it's a mess, you know. Right. Which, and again, like, there is, I think there is something to that where the theatrical cut does feel like it's not, especially when you compare it to the director's cut. It does feel like there is not the fullness of a vision there, right? It's not going to all the places, though I do feel all the places that, like, clearly Lonergan wants to go and, like, having some of those full plot threads, but then also just, like, the kind of way that some scenes breathe, the scoundscape of the movie is not the same.

Right. So just to sort of like bullet point it through this process. So the movies filmed in 2005, Fox Searchlight, planning to release it, I imagine, in 2006. But Lonnergan can't decide on a cut for it that he is comfortable with. There was a mandate at the studio level that the movie come in at a certain runtime. and he was not able to come up with a cut that he was satisfied with that would fit that runtime. And this sort of went on for years, like 2006 passes, nothing.

2007, 2008, ultimately. And partly it's not just searchlight. It's also the financier, this producer, who sticks kind of even to the contractual obligation of Lonergan in this running time more than seemingly the studio does because what eventually happens is Lonergan turns in a cut that he's not happy with,

etc. to the studio in 0809 something like that. And this producer is still like fighting against this cut of the movie. And basically it seems like this guy is the reason that they are

are all these lawsuits because Searchlight sues him. He countersues and sues Lonnergan as well. And basically once these lawsuits happen, the movie can't be released until that's basically resolved. By the time that it does get to theaters,

the lawsuits are still ongoing, but they come to some type of agreement. In that time, Martin Scorsese becomes a, involved and he makes a cut of the movie and tell the schumacher huh and tellmus schumacher yes they they come up with a cut of the movie supervised or at least in you know interaction with lonergan and it's somewhere between the theatrical and the extended version uh in terms of length and they were going to take this to toronto it would have been the world premiere of the movie and then this producer stopped that from happening. There's a lot of confusion that people think that the theatrical cut is the Scorsese cut, and I think that's how there were some miscommunications in the reporting of the movie initially,

but the theatrical cut is assembled by Lonergan. He's just not happy with it. And then this extended cut, he's happier with it, but it's not complete. Like there's, like you can tell that there's moments that are like standing. an audio, it's not like fully sound mixed, you know, some of it doesn't even look like it's color corrected.

On top of, like, it's in a low deaf release. Like, it only exists. You can stream it, but, like, physically, it only ever has been released on the DVD. Criterion Channel, I'm curious about the streaming life

of this movie because I know when it was on Criterion Channel, they were only showing the extended cut. I don't know what the HBO Max one was. I think that was the theatrical, because I remember it used to sort of constantly be showing on HBO. It would be like you'd turn on HBO or HBO 2, and you'd see like, you know, Anapak when screaming at June Berlin.

That's fascinating. Yeah. Well, and so the thing about the producer, too, this Gary Gilbert, who fellow sportsie is listening to this. He is, along with his brother, co-owners of the Cleveland Cavaliers basketball team, which sort of famously, his brother more than him, got the flag for this, but kind of, uh, sort of not ran LeBron James out of town the first time, but certainly like created the environment that LeBron James would want to leave that team for eventually the Miami Heat, which was a very

sort of like a controversial moment. And Dan Gilbert, the brother of this guy, Gary Gilbert sort of caught a lot of public flack and deservedly so for running his superstar out of town. And then after LeBron James left, he sort of bad-mouthed him in the press and whatever. And these guys just seem like a bunch of schmucks.

And also part of his contract with Lonergan as a financier apparently had a stipulation that he would finance Margaret and then basically had Lonergan on loan to

to do rewrites or polishes on one of his projects. And then once they settled this court or settled this in court with Gary Gilbert, one of the stipulations, I believe, is that Launergan has to pay him up to $50,000 of his salary from any studio writing project he has, I guess, indefinitely. Lonnergan has not had a studio writing assignment since them. And to that, I say, good on you, Kenny. Manchester by the sea doesn't count for that. No, Manchester by the Sea was produced independently and then bought by Amazon. Was produced independently and bought.

Oh, right. That's right. I can't, of course it's Amazon. For some reason, I was just like, that's another searchlight. Because it does feel like a searchlight. Yeah, because there was the one before Manchester came along, there was the one article I was reading there where there was like, if Kenneth Lonergan just wants to keep.

writing plays for the rest of his life. He doesn't have to pay this guy a red cent. And, well, I'm glad to learn that he wasn't getting paid. When you as a producer are coming across, when you allow Scott Rudin to look like the good guy in a relative situation, it's not a really great position to be in. If you're Gary Gilbert. The producers on this movie, Rudin was a producer, also producers on this movie, were Sidney Pollock and Anthony McGillow, both of whom had died by the time this movie had made it into theaters, which Like, you talk about, like, the span of when, you know, this movie was made to when this movie was released. It also, this sort of having nothing to do with the production history of it all.

And I do want to jump back into that because, like, the what-if of that is really interesting. But pursuant to the J. Smith-Camron thing, the fact that there are so many succession cast members on this is really fantastic. J. Smith, Cameron, Kieran Culkin, they don't share a scene. can't see if the crackling sexual chemistry that exists now existed back then. Jeannie Berlin, obviously, has also been on a few episodes of Succession. I dearly wish more, because I love her character so much. Yeah, but anyway, she just, like, showed up and didn't speak. Well, she was in season two in that one episode where Tom gets transferred to the news

division, and she's sort of the boss of their news division. And she kind of, like, you know, tells them where to go, which is a really fantastic scene. Um, uh, Sid Peach. Also, what a name her character in succession. Sid Peach. Fucking hell, I love it so much. Um, it's also fascinating to me. We didn't really talk about Jeannie Berlin's performance, but since you bring her up, it is fascinating to me because she's Elaine May's daughter.

Right. And like, when you read what Kenneth Lonergan went through with this movie, it sounds like a lot of the shit Elaine May had to deal with. Oh, yeah. And that then Elaine May played his mother in the Waverly Gallery on Broadway. Yep. Oh, right. I didn't even make that connection. Yeah. I didn't even make that connection. That's so funny. I did make the Kieran Culkin connection because he was in the production of this is our youth.

This is our youth. This is our youth. Well, Pac-Win did it in London with Jake Gyllenhaal and, oh, dear, Hayden Christensen. And that was also why she got cast. or how she got this job was that Lonnery and saw her do it and he was at the beginning stages of writing Marguerette and he was like, well, she's actually really right for Lisa and she sort of then became who he was sort of writing for.

That's fantastic. The one that I saw was Kieran Culkin, Michael Serra, and then, oh, what's her name? Oh, Tavi Givinson. Tavi Gavinson was the role that Anna Packman had played. And so she wasn't the best. I thought Kieran was quite good, actually. He was my favorite part of it.

Interesting show, though. So back to the production. This producer is the reason why it was so tumultuous. Because even at a certain point, it doesn't sound like Searchlight was always happy with Lonnergan and, you know, just wanted a cut of the movie. Sure. Because at some point, they were ready to release it. Yeah, they signed off on a cut, I think, in 2008, right? I think Fox Searchlight is smart enough to know that, like, I would love to know what kind of return Gary Gilbert was expecting to get on this movie.

Right. Even in the best of circumstances, how much movie is the best version, the most commercial version of Marguerette going to make, honestly. Like, this is the thing. And I feel like Searchlight ultimately probably was just like, yeah, you know what? Like, we know the economy at work here, right? We know the relative scale of these. movies. You're not going to be making millions and millions of dollars off of this movie no matter what. I know you can count on me. I don't remember what scale of success that was, but that was

a decidedly indie triumph that, like, yeah, it got awards and it got, you know, a boost from being an Oscar-nominated movie. But I don't know what version of Marguerette you could watch and be like, yeah, we can make some money off of this. Like, which sort of leads me to to my sort of my hypothetical situation, which is, say this movie comes out in 06 or 07 or 08, sometime, you know, in that span, it plays Toronto. It is either a two and a half hour or a three hour cut, whatever, however, that would shake out in terms of what this movie was. I think this movie takes a long time for people to come around to it. its greatness.

I agree. No matter what. I mean, I think if you look at it in a vacuum of if this was released on time, even if it was released as the best version of this movie, I mean, what Lonergan is kind of after is not, you know, necessarily the most audience friendly type of thing. And like, it requires, you have to be kind of a rigorous audience member for this movie. Watching this in the midst of a midst of a. a Toronto film festival where you're watching

three other movies that day, there's no way you're going to be... Are you just in a theatrical release, you know, like, I think audiences aren't necessarily prepared for, like, movies like this. Certainly not on the scale that, like, Searchlight would have launched it at. And

I think also Lonergan coming off of, you can count on me, would really... Well, that's the other thing is... I would factor into people's expectations of what this is supposed to be. I think because like, go ahead. The earliest that this movie could have come out would have been six years after you can count on me. So like even the earliest version of this movie, you would have six years of expectation for what's the next Kenneth Lonergan movie.

There's no way that that wouldn't have led to a whole lot of like, oh, disappointing sophomore effort from Kenneth Lonergan. I wonder though, like what if it had premiered at New York instead of Toronto, what would that have done? And, like, what I don't, I could see it, though, being something that the critics got some critics got behind, like New York film critics or something like that. I think if you release it early enough in the year where you have several months for the critics to, like, National Society of Film Critics decide to be a little contrarian about things, sort of throw an interesting one.

And they're like, because one of the articles that I read about this was that the hopes for a release with the team Margaret hashtag was let critics see this movie because like for as much as Searchlight was like listen we you know we released this into theaters

critics were able to see it in September when we released it but like it really was snuck out there and the team at like one of the busiest times for critics like when they would have screened that movie critics would have already especially in like New York and

L.A. That's when critics would have been screening, you know, stuff for New York Festival. Yeah. Right. And so the idea for this hashtag Team Marguerette thing that happened on Twitter, which was, again, people, this movie got snuck out into a release at the end of September. A lot of people didn't realize it. And it was like there and gone. And by the time people had sort of realized that certain critics who saw it then were like, this is really something special. Not all. of them but like enough of them that as the weeks went on people were like well now i wish i'd been able to see this movie now could they send screeners so that we could maybe vote for it and maybe we could you know make this into maybe anna pacquin can get astray you know best actress citation from some out of the way critics group or something like that some some way that would allow critics to sort of build a drumbeat for this movie and so that's where this hashtag and also a change.org petition

was created to kind of build up this impetus for Fox Searchlight to re-release the movie. It wasn't even about the director's cut. That was beside the point. It was get this movie back into theaters so that critics can see it

and audiences can see it and so that there can be some sort of insurgency for this movie. That ultimately never happened. I mean, even forget a director cut at this point because at this point this is the only cut of the movie that we know that exists because Lonergan wasn't

doing really press for it at the time partly because he couldn't it was still in litigation and by the time they actually get an interview with him and I was trying to find this but like it looks like some of these have been like scrubbed from the internet I remember

him saying in an interview I can't talk about certain things still you know he can talk obliquely about the movie and such but like we don't even know that there's like other cuts of it at that point. Yeah, I think the cut, that's the long cut

we didn't know about until the Blu-ray because it wasn't even on like the actual DVD. It was like only on the Blu-ray can you see this extended cut that then became like oh, you've got to see that or you haven't seen the movie. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So before we get into I feel like

there's still plenty of things to talk about this movie. We could do a four-hour podcast on this movie. But before we get any further, I do want to mention that this is our sixth Alice and Janney movie

that we've done on this podcast, which, a momentous occasion, to be sure, we commemorate the sixth time we have covered a film by a certain, featuring a certain actor, with a six,

six-timers sort of memorialization and I give usually just Chris a quiz on the six movies that we have covered and Patrick since you are our guest for this momentous episode we would of course like to invite you to join in and you and Chris can both participate in this quiz and you can hell yeah go up against each other head to see if you can beat me yeah all right so I have enough questions I have an even number of questions so I should be able to go to you guys can take turns if one of you misses the other one can steal and so if you have something to jot down just so you have the titles in front of you the six alison janey movies that we have covered on this podcast have been the ice storm angley's the ice storm the girl

on the train uh alison jane of course playing the police detective mr mrs police woman we gave you all the clues to the girl on the train uh hair Spray playing what's Penny Pinkleton's mom's name? Verna? Is it? Prudy? Prudy.

Thank you. She looks like a Verna. Nurse Betty. She was working on the soap opera in Nurse Betty. The Way Way Back. God, she's so funny in the Way Way Back. I love her so much. Randy,

Vacation Neighbor in the Way Way Back. And then, of course, Marguerette. So, six movies. One of the answers to these questions will be one or more of these movies. Patrick, as our guest, we are going to invite you to go first. Okay. So for you, and I'm going to keep score. All right.

Let me just write down your little means here. Patrick, Chris. All right. Question one. For Patrick, which of those six films is the longest? Well, this is a tough one. I'm going to guess Marguerette. In any version of Marguerette, yes, the Marguerette is the longest one.

Chris, up to you, which is the shortest. Is it, how long is Nurse Betty? Is it the way, way back? It's the way way back at 103 minutes. Nurse Betty is close, I think one of the other ones is also, like there are a few of them within a few minutes of each other, but the way, way back is the shortest at 103. All right. Patrick, which was the lowest rated on Rotten Tomatoes?

Oh, I mean, I hope it's the girl on the train. It is the girl on the train, 44% on Rotten Tomatoes. That's too high. Alison Janney's six-timers is like a remarkably well-reviewed six-timers. Like, Ray Way Back is the only really poorly reviewed one of the bunch, so good for Allison on this. Chris, which was the highest rated on Rot Tomatoes. I'm going to say because of, like, how it's skewed by the 90s, it's the ice storm. It's not the ice storm.

Patrick, you can steal. Oh, snap. I'm going to say hairspray. It is hairspray at 91% on tomatoes. All right, so Patrick with the steel is up three to one. after the first four questions. All right. So Patrick, then, this question is back to you

because you did steal. Which film made the most money worldwide? Well, oh. I'm going to say hairspray. Hairspray, $203.5 million worldwide. What did Chris? Oh, let me bring that up. Hold on a second.

The Girl on the Train worldwide, 173.2 million. I can't imagine anything else approaches that. Yes. All right. Chris, which film made the least money worldwide? Marguerette, baby. Marguerette, baby. 623,000 in change for Marguerette.

All right. Patrick, back to you. Which of these films has a score by Danny Elfman? Oh, Girl on the Train. Yes, the Girl on the Train. Very good. All right. Chris, which two films played the Cannes Film Festival?

The Ice Storm. Yes. And Nurse Betty. And Nurse Betty, correct. Very good. All right. Patrick, which one film played the Sundance Film Festival? okay oh the way way back the way way back very good all right currently patrick with six chris with three uh chris this is your question which film won an aARP movies for grownups award

the way way back the way back won for best comedy it was also nominated for uh steve carrell and alison janey both got supporting nominations but yes the way way back so point for chris Patrick, which film won a BAFTA? Oh, oh. Uh-oh. Is it? Okay, hold on. It better not fucking beat the girl on the train. God damn.

The Ice Storm. The Ice Storm is correct. Yes. Best supporting actress for Sigourney Weaver, the Ice Storm. Hell yeah. Chris, which film was released on the same weekend as Soul Food. Oh, that has to be the ice storm.

That is the ice storm. Very good. All right. So, there we go. All right. Patrick, which film was released on the same weekend as the Lone Ranger? The most problematic film in history. Oh, God. As it turns out. Oh, no. Oh, geez.

Oh, yeah, I think, is it hairspray? It is not Hairsbury. Chris, can you steal? It is the way, way back. It is the way way back. Very good. Chris is back in the game. And now, Chris, this is your question.

Besides Allison Janie herself, which is the only film to not star an Oscar winner for acting? Ooh, no, I almost not the wrong thing. It is the ice storm. It is not the ice storm. Kevin Claw. is an Oscar. Kevin Klein is an Oscar winner.

Oh, duh. Patrick, can you steal? Repeat the question. Besides Alice and Janney herself, which is the only film not to star an Oscar winner for acting. Not to star an Oscar winner for acting. Oh, hold up. This is actually, I think you might have been a little tricky here. Is it hairspray?

It's not. Hairspray. Hairspray stars Christopher Walking. So no points for anybody. The answer is the girl on the train. Yeah, I got it late. Of course. Zellweger and Freeman, Renee Zellweger and Morgan Freeman are both Oscar

winners in Nurse Betty. Sam Rockwell in the way way back is an Oscar winner and of course Anna Peckwin in Marguerette. So no points for anybody. So, Chris, that was your question, right? To start? Yep. All right, Patrick. Which two movies

features stars of the movie face-off. Okay, well, one is hairspray. One is hairspray, John Travolta, yes. Nurse Betty. Incorrect. All right, since he got half of it, Chris, you can get a half a point of a steal. Okay, it's the ice storm. It's Joan Allen. It's Joan Allen in the ice storm. So get plus point five. All right. So now, Chris, is your question, which two movies feature stars of Little Miss Sunshine?

The Way Way Back. Way Back, which has two, actually, Steve Carell and Tony Cowell. Yes, it does. And, ooh, say, Abigail Breslin, Paul Dano, Tony Collette, Greg Kinnear. Oh, Nurse Betty, Greg Kinnear. Nurse Betty, Greg Kinnear. Very good. All right.

So, currently, Patrick with seven, Chris with seven and a half, and we only have a few more questions to go. Patrick, which movies feature, which one movie features two stars of Romy and Michelle's high school reunion, and which are the two stars? Okay. Okay. Dear God, I mean, are we going with, okay. Oh, Jesus Christ. So it's just one movie. So you just have to pick the movie that has anybody from Romeo and Michelle's high school union in it. Well, I'm trying to like re-team people from Romeo and Michelle's House reunion. So I'm like, is Cameron Mannheim one of them? Or is it Alan coming? It's not Marisorvino because she's not in any of these. and it's not Kudrow.

Is it Garofalo? Oh, damn it. I'm just going to guess the way, way back. It's not the way way back. Chris, can you steal? I can. It's the girl on the train, and it's Justin Thoreau and Lisa Kudrow.

Exactly right. Lisa Kudrow is another girl on the train in the girl on the train, who knows the secret of the deviled eggs. And Justin Thoreau is in Romeo and Michelle as the mysterious smoking cowboy, yeah. All right, point for Chris. Chris, this is your question. Which movie has Mark Platt as accredited producer?

Hairspray. No, incorrect. Pats of Green's Steel. You know what? I'm just, I'm going to say Nurse Betty. It is not Nurse Betty. No points for anybody. He's a credited producer on the girl on the train.

Jesus All right Patrick Your last question Which film is rated PG For language Some Suggestive Content And Momentary Teen Smoking

Well that's hairspray That is hairspray Very good Point for Patrick Teens smoking Which film is rated R for strong language sexuality

Some drug use And disturbing images Nurse Betty incorrect that is Marguerette oh sorry I was going to give Patrick a chance to steal oh shoot that's all right I think he technically won though actually no but I'm going to come up with another question so hold on a second because Patrick

as of right now is half a point behind and I want to give him a chance to win while you're looking one of the things that I'd love about Marguerette is the teen smoking speaking of teen smoking I love that like scene where they're all out there and like Lisa is talking about whatever, and they're just pretending to be jaded high schoolers. Lisa smokes a lot in the movie. She smokes a lot and like, right?

And like, and Kieran Culkin in her own house. All right. For Patrick. Uh-oh. Hold on a second. Please. All right. For Patrick, which are the two.

movies based on novels. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Well, it's not hairspray, and it's... Oh, girl on the train and the way, way back. It is... Girl on the train, yes, not the way, way back. So, Chris, you can also get a half point for a steal. It's the ice storm.

Oh, right. It's the ice storm and the girl on the train. All right. So, final scores. Patrick with eight, Chris with nine. Chris ekes it out by a point. I'm proud of both of you, though. Very good job on the awesome, Janie. Good game. Good game. Good game. Good game. Good sportsmanship. That's what I like to see. Good game. I can get behind these kind of sports. All right. What else do we want to talk about on this? I feel like there's still so much. Jeannie Berlin actually got a little bit of, she was the one who sort of got the late-breaking critics awards stuff that, like, I think they'd wanted for Anna Pac-win in the movie as a whole. It was ultimately pretty late in the game. She was a runner-up, though, at the National Society of Film Critics, and I need to look up who she was runner-up to because they don't have it in front of me, so hold on a second.

But that feels like very National Society of Film Games, right, to be the ones. Well, they're a late-breaking critics group, too. They're the last ones. Yeah, they're the last big ones to do it. I mean, Marguerette mostly did well in, like, critics polls versus critics awards, partly because they got those screeners so late. The Boston Society went behind Marguerette really well. They didn't give it a win, but it got four bids from them.

Yeah. National Society of Film Critics. Sorry, go ahead, Patrick. Oh, just that it did almost like better with Best of the Decade than Best of the Year stuff. We'll definitely get into that in a second because, yes, that was, and I think that's speaks to the fact that this is a it's a little bit of a slow burn movie. This was a movie that was never going to

really, you know, be in, be received the way that you want it to be sort of right away. Jeannie Berlin was runner-up, along with Shailene Woodley for the Descendants, were both runners-up in supporting actress. The winner at the National Society of Film Critics was Jessica Chastain. This was her

big breakthrough year where she was in everything. She wins for the Tree of Life, take shelter, and the help. Which I don't even think was all of the movies that she was in that year. She was in quite a few. National Society is pretty good that year. They gave supporting actor to Albert Brooks and Drive. I thought he was quite good in that. Kirsten Dunst gets best actress for Melancholia. That was her big prize that year. And Brad Pitt won best actor for Moneyball and the Tree of Life. It's always

interesting to me. Kirsten Dunst wins best actress for Melancholia, right? Which is like the triumph for cinnophiles everywhere right she's the she's the thinking person's choice for best actress not like those dull Oscars who don't know what they're talking about

and yet Merrill for the Iron Lady is right there as a runner-up you know what I mean so it's just like it's the dichotomy of all of this right where you can't feel to it's you're really tempted to drive a narrative there right where it's like the smarty smart snobs

of the national society versus the dumb babies of the Oscars. And it's like, but they like, they were both there. They were both there sort of hand in hand. God, I always think that's very funny. If Anna Pacquine had made it into the Golden Globes that year, she could have been in Merrill's litany of actresses' names. She could have been.

What about? How would she have pronounced that name? Pequin or something. She would have called her Annie. Annie Packard. And she would have said Margaret. She would have called the movie Margaret. In Margaret.

No, she would have said Margaret Pac-Win. Oh. Or just Annie Pac-Win as Margaret. Yes. Once again, in all of that speech, my favorite part is still her calling Tilda Switten Gilda. It's still the funniest time. Also, there's a crazy thing that happens where she says,

thank you to the people of Britain for letting me trample your history, and the camera cuts to Madonna. I forgot about that Truly, see, this is again This is what we lose when we lose the Golden Globes We lose stuff like this We'll never have it again, it'll never happen Fantastic

Yeah, Boston Society of Film Critics I want to bring that up to Chris, since you mentioned it because Marguerette shows up in a few places there So Runner up in Ensemble cast which, okay, I'm already plotting. Runner up an ensemble cast, which first of all, this movie is runner up to nothing when it comes to ensemble cast. This movie is a champion loses to carnage.

I mean, it's such a... What? Oh, no. Carnage. I mean, it's definitely not a runner up to carnage where everyone in that movie is bad. But I mean, like, I could understand, you know, people not rallying around it as an ensemble because it does. almost feel like a star vehicle because in fact that is on at an 11 on every scene.

Yeah. But to lose to carnage, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, uh, runner up in best film to the artist, uh, Hugo and margaret are the two runners up that year, which again, just a, a triple feature that movie, I dare you. I dare you. I dare you. to have people in the same day watch the artist and Hugo and Margaret and just see what Madnesses. See what happens. I'd love to see it.

Social Experiment. All right. Screenplay, it ends up as a runner up to Aaron Sorkin and Steven Zalian for Moneyball. People really love Moneyball. People like to pry and pretend that Aaron Sorkin didn't write Moneyball because they like Moneyball and they don't want

to give Aaron Sorkin credit for anything that they like. But Margaret is runner up there and then the fourth one oh genie berlin again runner up to Melissa McCarthy for bridesmaids which I think you're a winner either way going there um Boston society is always sort of willing to go off the beaten path they kind of announce not long after New York and L.A. and maybe sometimes they're even in between New York and L.A., but they have they always have some good awards I like Boston, good on your Boston.

What else? What else do we want to talk about? There's still, I feel like we've only scratched the surface. Just the, just the, the, you can count on me of it all, right? The fact that, like, Ruffalo is in this, too, which almost feels like, it's too big of a role to feel like a favor, but it's too small of a role to feel like it matches the stature of his sort of star persona at this point, right? Yeah. Although he's in that weird moment where he's at that time, I think the movies that came out for him that year were, like, just like, just like. heaven and um yeah uh 13 going on 30 he was sort of there was that weird two years where he did

like a strange number of romantic comedies that he was he was the most forgettable or zodiac oh yeah it's right before zodiac uh he was the most forgettable one in rumor has it a movie that is generally pretty forgettable like nobody remembers that he's sort of the he's the cuck of that movie right he's the one where uh jennifer aniston's engaged to him and she runs off with Kevin Costner for Pete's sake. What an odd movie that is. We can cover that one, right?

Chris, that didn't get a weird score nomination or anything like that. I think that's wrapped up in the Shirley McLean kind of resurgence. Oh, totally. That's the same year. Which I feel like we did well in her shoes episode. Oh, definitely. But I feel like, you know, always

good to keep some things in the role here. I feel like. And then Lonergan had that stray nomination, co-nomination for writing, Gangs of New York, which I have no idea where in that writing and rewriting process he came in, because it's three nominated screenwriters for that, I'm pretty sure. It was Jay Cox is one of them, and hold on, there's one other person, I'm pretty sure. Is it like Eric Roth or Steve Zalian? It very well, it's Steve Zalian.

Actually, yes. It's, uh, yeah. Jay Cox with the story by credit. And then Lonergan and Zalian both have screenplay credits. I can't imagine they were working together on it. So it's got to be, right. But that's probably where the Scorsese connection comes in because like Scorsese went to bat for this movie, which we should also mention when he did that

edit of the movie. It was in the middle of post-production on Hugo. On Hugo, right. Well, and Hugo was secret screening at, sorry, go ahead, Patrick. Oh, it's just that he had seen an early cut, that he declared a masterpiece. He was like, this movie's a masterpiece needs to be seen. Well, and Hugo that year had screened at New York Film Festival as the secret screening, but it screened unfinished.

So when I read that part about how he took time away from Hugo post-production to edit Marguerette, I'm like, oh, I guess that's why it wasn't finished in time for New York. I mean, it could be because. What I know was unfinished about Hugo was a few of the visual effects shots, which is like, at that point, I mean, I don't pretend to know how fully how post-production works, but like, what is Scorsese doing at that point except, like, shepherding his vision. Signing off on things. Exactly. No, but the narrative of that is just funny to me because I like the idea that one last time Marguerette was fucking shit up on the Upper West Side. fucking shit up at Lincoln Center that

something was going to happen and it did not go as planned. It's that damn Lisa Cohen making it about her. God, Lisa Cohen as a film festival programmer would be a goddamn nightmare. What movies would Lisa Cohen even like?

Oh man. That's a great question. Everything. I mean, yeah. I love the scenes with her and Jay Smith Cameron where Jay Smith Cameron just starts like yelling at her And it's just like, this is how it sounds when you, I'm going to pretend to be you. And I'm going to react to you the way you react to me.

And it's just like, it's so immature. And yet it's just so perfect to watch somebody try and meet Lisa on her level in that way. It's fantastic. Oh, it's so good. And then she just loses her cool and just like, it's so fantastic. Launergan also, in his performance as her father in those scenes where he's on the phone with her, it's underrated performance in the movie. So good. So good.

Like, that's sort of the malignantly distant dad who is like never does anything outright villainous. And yet you're just like, God, you're such a problem. You're part of this problem. You're part of what's going on. You're part of what's wrong. Well, and his always asking, how is it like it's going on on the boyfriend front. And like, he has that horrible new wife who's just like, you know, always going on about meals. So much about the food for this cowboy vacation.

What does she say? She's like, ask her if there are any foods she won't eat because they need to pre-plan the meals or whatever, which is like 18 layers of passive aggression. The fact that she's having him funnel this request through him. Like, it's just the most stepmothery. She says that she like emails her or texts her or something or like try to call her at one point. And it's like, oh yeah, where it says like, you know, Annette's tried to call you like four times to ask you about this, but you haven't responded.

or something. Can I also say somehow in this movie Matt Damon looks younger than he did in Goodwill Hunting. I know. Matt Damon is the one that's most like, oh, this movie's a fucking time capsule,

isn't it? Oh man, those glasses. He looks so young. He looks so young. He looks so young. This is only a couple, or this is filmed only a few years before the informant. And I feel like that was like a real, like, indicative

few years from Matt Damon where he goes Because this would have been released If it was released in 06 That was the same year as What's he in in 06? Is he in the Good Shepherd? Is that like the Good Shepherd? Yeah, it's the Good Shepherd

I think he shot this like on a break from the Good Shepherd And he had just done just on born supremacy It's crazy. Right. But like he looks younger in this than he looks in born supremacy. He looks like a baby. Absolutely. He looks like an absolute child.

It's crazy. Yeah. Which actually wakes a little. It's like those scenes are, for me, the weirdest part of the movie, because it almost sometimes feels like a different kind of movie is jumping in. Like, it almost feels perfunctory that Lisa would sleep with a teacher in this very sort of, like, transgressive way, right? But it's filmed in a way that, like, indemnifies his character as much as possible without, obviously without, like, letting him off the hook. But, like, she's really the aggressor. he really, like, very much does not do, you know, he's not, he's not actively

pressuring her. He's very much intimidated by her. He's very much just like, and, and I'm not ever quite sure what to make of that. That's the most, like, this is a story about a young girl being written by a middle-aged man. Part of that. It is the closest thing I think the movie comes to feeling extraneous. I don't know how much we get out of that story elements. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think it's another example of Lisa sort of taking a situation that, and it's

entirely about her and her sort of her figure, her visualization of her own narrative. That she's like, and then I had sex with my teacher and then I had an abortion and it cost $400 and like that this kind of, when you. Jeannie Berlin says this is not an opera. Yes. It's this sort of yet another way in which Lisa is esk. Oh, my God. That entire scene is chock full, the argument scene with her and Jeannie Berlin, where they get to the end of it and Lisa goes, I can't remember the words exactly, but she's just like, I'm not making this all about myself.

I know that that's a thing that some people do, but I'm not doing it. Oh, yeah. And she says, it ends with her saying, why can't you just give me a break? And then it just, like, smash cuts to her sitting on Matt Damon's sofa saying, thank you for letting me come over. Oh, my God. It's just, it's so perfect. Everything about her is so perfect. We are all not supporting characters in the grand story that is your life or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. And then that whole thing about, like, you can't make fiction out of other people's lives. That's how people turn into Nazis. I'm not playing games. And don't look so outraged. You have every right to falsify your own life, but you have no right to falsify. anybody else's. It's what makes people into Nazis. And I'm sorry, but it's just a little bit suspicious

who you're making such a big fuss about this when you didn't even know her and you're going to be troubles with your own mother. Oh my God. Wow. But this is my life that we're talking about. Because it's my real friend who got killed, who I'm never going to see again, who I've known since I was 19 years old myself. And I don't want that sucked into some adolescent self-drama to say. I'm not fucking dramatizing anything. I was there and you weren't. And if I happen to express myself a little hyperbolicly, Emily, that's just the way I talk. I can't help it of my mother's an actress.

Why are you being so fucking strident? That's how, yes. Well, that's the extreme New Yorkiness of this character, this Jeannie Berlin character, that comes out in like little stuff like that about like, that's how people become Nazis. Or the dinner scene with Jean-Renaud where she's just like, So what should these Jew occupiers? do. And it's just like, you can tell like the temperature just goes from like just through the floor. And it's one of those things where you can see where this conversation is going and there's

no way to get out of it because she's exactly who she is. And he, Jean Renaud is exactly who he is. And you're like, I know where this is going. I've met people before. I understand like the absolute entrenchment of both of these people. It's really amazing to watch it just sort of happen. And to have Lisa be like, I didn't even want to bring this. Like, I don't want to have this argument again. I, as if she's been like, I've been through this at school. I've totally, like, exhausted this argument. I don't need to have it again because, you know, the argument at school was the, you know, the doll

Buckley debates of her life. But she doesn't see the difference in those two arguments between adults and between children. Absolutely not. Because they are two very different things. Yeah. With different baggage. I do think, like, for Jeannie Berlin, though, She's so ideally cast, especially because of that scene between her and Lisa, where Lisa's the whole strident thing.

Because, like, A, just the dynamics of it, the type of choices that Jeannie Berlin makes as an actor are just, like, so exactly what you need to do in that scene as, like, Anna Pacquine is basically, like, sweating tears at that point. Yeah. But I think it's also, that scene is one of, is like the only moment that really in Lonergan's script it is saying what the thesis of the whole thing is. And in the wrong actor's hands, it could, that scene could be so crunchy. Yeah. But like, Jeannie Berlin's, like, kind of naturalist outrage. Yeah. As a performer is so well aligned to prevent it from being that kind of didactic, narratively didactic scene.

Yeah. And everything she does is sort of so full, and it has, like, actually, the sort of whole thing going on underneath that she's, what she's sort of playing in that scene is to not express all of her grief while all Lisa's doing is trying to express her grief. And, like, that battle and her, like, saying, this is not how a grieve. grown-ups do this, not what you're doing. She's so good. Can I also say in a movie with perhaps the highest concentration of great performances by people with one or fewer lines, the two women staring daggers at J. Smith-Camron at the Jean-Rinot character's funeral is their memorial or whatever, wake, whatever they're at, are

phenomenal and perfect and tell a whole-ass story in like half a second. It's so good. It's so wonderful. Everything, so many small little things about this. I understand for a lot of people if it doesn't all coalesce for them,

even though ultimately it does for me. But like, just like the sum of its parts, all of the little, there's so many scenes in this movie that I could just like watch isolated from the other ones, you know, any number of the classroom scenes, any of the, you know, the Jeannie Berlin Lisa scenes, obviously the bus crashes like its own little opera in and of itself. The final scene, okay, let's talk about the final scene. And then maybe we can start to wrap up as we're

at the two-hour mark. A long episode for Marguerette, who would have got? Who would have thought? So, Chris, this is the second movie in the last, what, four that we've done to have a emotional climactic breakthrough at the Metropolitan Opera House. So they, and that's, it's Renee Fleming on stage, right? That's, uh, our first Renee Fleming. Five more to go for six-timer Renee Fleming. And it's, it's interesting the way that scene is lit. I've never been to the opera, so I don't know whether it's a different standard of,

house lights there where obviously we it almost feels like there is lighting on them specifically and sort of like I'm always amazed watching that scene and like how is everybody else not just sort of watching them go through this emotional catharsis where they like just start

like hugging each other and sort of like breaking down in the middle of this opera you do kind of see the woman next to them get a little uncomfortable it's true like some old lady would have like hissed at them and just be like we're watching the show. Somebody from the Lincoln Plaza crowd would have been like, you know, rustled a plastic bag and said, shut up, you know.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. As they're like unwrapping their little, you know, strawberry candy or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Just a phenomenal scene, though. Just a phenomenal, like, wordless. You can see exactly what's going on, the culmination of their entire story in this movie.

And yet a lot of it, you don't ever get the sense that, like, well, Lisa's solved it. just be she's had this breakthrough with this mom so like now it's all better and it's just like no this or even that it's conclusive for their relationship i buy that they have another like fight even if it's a small one on the cab ride home right but it is a moment where they see each other it is very much just like this this veil that had been between them of like being unable to see especially from lisa's end towards her mother being unable to see uh what they're going through And they really, you can watch that veil just sort of fall in between them.

It's really phenomenal. It's such unbelievable. Like, as Jay Smith Cameron starts to see that Pacquins having that reaction and then her having her reaction and reaction to the reaction and the reaction and everything and them just like building that and then to the hug, it's like very emotionally overwhelming. I love the idea that, and Jay Smith Cameron and Kenneth Lonergan had been married at this point since 2000, so they had been married quite a long while. But this idea that could, and she had been just sort of a knock-around actress, right?

She had been in, you know, small roles and things. I imagine she did a bunch of theater and, like, you know, small television stuff and guest-starring roles. I want to see how many law and orders she's been on. She's been on special victims unit, criminal intent, and mothership law and order. So that is the triple crown of television acting. Um, also one episode of homicide life on the street, which feels like, you know, that's the, that's the extra special one. That's the egot, I guess, of, uh, television acting is three law and orders and a homicide life on the street. Um, and apparently she was on guiding light. So like, that's truly like, it's the, the New York acting like entire universe is wrapped up and all of that, right? Guiding light was one of the soaps that, uh, filmed in Brooklyn back in the day when it was still on. But so I love this idea that he, as a writer-director, then is sort of giving her this, like, biggest platform she'd had. And then, of course, it sits on the shelf for five years.

But she's just so phenomenal in this movie. She's miraculous in it. I love her so much. Love her so much. All right. What else? I think I've gone. I literally was just looking at my notes.

I'm like, I really did address kind of everything. So if you guys have any closing notes before we move into IMD. I would like just there's it's such a small thing but I want to mention that that in that scene with Mark ruffalo on the porch outside that there is like one of the amazing phenomenons of like shooting outside in new york where suddenly wind starts happening and cloud shadow going over their faces and it's just like i don't know i don't know i just want to say like damn that scene is incredible and that that when that moment happens it's just like electrifying It's a great scene. It's a great, great scene. Yeah, good movie. Chris, what about you? I would just say, like, our relationship with this movie is probably not over, though maybe it is because, like, Lonergan is very clear that the extended cut is not his director's cut.

It's not complete. It's not, you know, and the technical stuff we mentioned with it, like, is still kind of snagging. But, like, I, you can imagine the actual definitive, like, directors cut coming eventually, especially, like, I read an interview with him where he, like, speaks kind of fondly of what Ridley Scott has done, uh, with his, like, constant re-editing of his movies. Blade Runner specifically, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, Lonnergan is eager and willing to, you know, put out a definitive version of this movie, but, like, knowing that this was a searchlight movie. so now essentially Disney owns the rights to it I do fear that like that could never happen slash you know this movie could fall away in some way

but like there's there's always hope that I think people expect Criterion could do something for it and once it showed up on the channel I think it kind of reinvigorated that but because Disney is basically kind of at the reins would they give them the rights to this movie to do it I don't know yeah I wish they would because yeah Yeah, Nico Muley, the composer of the film in an interview apparently alluded to a pot like that once there was a four-hour cut of this movie. Oh, I mean, I believe it.

I'd watch that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. I would add, just as I'm still staring at the J. Smith Cameron, the Wikipedia page, the law and order, the original mothership law and order, she has been on four times as different characters in four episodes, which icon, once again, you know, character, actress, icon. And she was also, though, she was on a nine-episode stint on True Blood in the second season of True Blood from, or I think it was the second season, 2010 to 2011. So, again, this entire time of a Marguerette reunion that we didn't know was a Marguerette reunion. Because it all happened in the interim before between the movie being filmed and being released. So it's just odd to have a movie with that much of a, you know, a.

negative space in its existence. It's so, it's wild. All right. This is also one of those movies, too, where it's like some of our listeners may not know the full backstory of this. And, like, sometimes I see people who, like, tweet things like,

you know, the Oscars are trash because they didn't give anything to Marguerette. And it's like, okay, you don't know anything of the context of this movie. Oh, because we had mentioned it, too. It did show up, as Patrick alluded to, on a bunch of Best of the Decade lists. It was slant magazines number 12 of the decade.

Indie Wire put it at number 41. K. Austin Collins at Vanity Fair put it as number 18. It was, it definitely is a movie whose reputation has grown and grown and grown. And it really sort of ensconced itself in the great movies of this, the last decade. and this century, really. So I imagine in, you know, another 20 years it will be thought of probably even more highly just because it's sort of built that way, right? It's built to be, it's not a timeless movie.

It's very much a time capsule movie, but I think the time capsuleness of it ages really well. Yeah. If that feels like a movie that's kind of built to be discovered. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, three-hour cut is available to rent on Amazon Prime. so, you know, it's $4 well spent, as far as I'm concerned. All right, let's move into the IMDB game. Chris, do you want to tell our listeners what the IMDB game is?

Absolutely. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other to get the top four titles that IMD says an actor or actress is most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints.

We do love a free-for-all-of-h hints. That's the MDB game. All right, Patrick, you are our guest. I imagine you've been waiting to play the IMDB game since you were a small child and you didn't even realize it. Small child watching Kundun in the theater and you were like, one day, I will play the IMDB game. All right, so as our guest, you get the choice of going first or last. And who you would like to either give or guess from. Oh, God. Okay.

I would like to go first because I'm very, very nervous. So I will go first to get it over with. All right. So who do you want to guess first then? You want to, you want to? Why don't I? I'd love to guess first if I'm. Okay.

From whom? Well, from, well, why don't I give to Chris? All right. So you give to Chris. Chris will give to me, and I'll start by giving to you. All right. Okay. So my choice, I mentioned that I saw this is our youth, a production of This Is Our Youth on Broadway several years ago, starring Marguerette, star Karen Culkin, and also Tavi Gevinson, and also Michael Sarah, who is who I am going to quiz you with for his known for.

No television or voiceover Okay So, Sarah, okay I'm going to try Okay, well, Juno Juno is correct That is one Okay, well that's good

Okay, well, that's good, okay, when there's that Um, um, oh, okay, um, okay, um What is that called? God damn it Uh, Scott Pilgrim versus the world correct two for two okay okay okay okay okay okay

I'm trying to remember like when I first was aware of him I think it probably was Juno right which was 2007 but he definitely oh no he's in that movie that like Loki really annoyed me

it's super bad super bad you are three for three are you kidding me okay wait what's um okay Michael Sarah there is a hint I want to give you for this last one

but because you are three for three I want you to I want this to remain pure for you okay okay all right I'm trying to like even think about like what he's um what okay so yeah

wait wait is it Gloria Bell oh god I wish it was It is not. It is not Gloria Bell. That is one strike. I will say, though, now that you have, now that one strike, this is a film that has a connection to you personally, sort of work that you have done. Oh, okay. I think I know what this is. Oh, God, I have to get this title right. Yes. It's actually sort of, the title is a journey. Oh, because, yes, right, because Dash and Lily, which is a television show that I was on, and then Nick and Nora, Nick and Nora's Infinite Playlist. Very good. Nick and Nora's Infinite Playlist based on the novel by David Levithen.

Hell yeah. Writer of Dash and Lily, a show, Patrick, even before we met, you know, I loved that show even when I didn't have to because my friend was on it. I really enjoyed it. Patrick, if our listeners don't know, played the, I would say, snarky strand bookstore clerk in Dash and Lily. Yeah, I think so. Judgy Gay? Are we going to call you the Judgy Gay, right? Like, you were casting aspersions.

Maybe. I mean, the thing that's funny is that, like, growing up in New York City, like, the Strand people really, really, like, the second I was like, oh, I have an audition to play somebody, like, who works at Strand. I had an immediate image in my mind of people where you say like, oh, do you have like this book? And they would just sort of sigh heavily at you and say like, oh, yeah, it's over there. I loved Dash and Lily so much. I'm so mad that it only got the first season

and it didn't get renewed for a second one. I will never not yell at Netflix for that. I watched that one in my first pandemic Christmas and was weeping at not being able to participate in New York City Christmas It's a great New York City show. Highly recommended. Me too. It was a delightful show.

All right. Patrick, so you went, you got all four with only one strike. Very good. Well done. Thank you. I was really, really nervous. All right. So now you will quiz Christopher Fyle.

Okay, so I went the succession route. Oh. And I have, for you, Chris Fyle, about Matthew McFadion. The finest performance on the past year of television. Just truly a brilliant, brilliant performance. And yes, there is one television. It has to be succession.

You are correct. Pride and Prejudice. Correct. Okay. Do I think there is going to be further... Joe Wright with Anna Karenina. I'm going to say yes. Anna Karenina.

Incorrect. Oh, my God, no. He's so good, though, in Anna Karenina. He is a scream. He's so good. Hmm. Okay, now I have to also think of other things that he's been in. And there's no more TV, right?

There's no more TV. Okay. What was he even in after? Pride and Prejudice. I feel like he was in some type of vampire movie probably. Oh, boy. Yeah, there's a couple. It's an interesting thing because he's like weirdly sort of can become very unrecognizable

very easily. Right, because you throw a mustache on the guy and he's suddenly a very different man. Totally. um oh god I don't I know he was in the Howard's end

miniseries but that's TV I'm maybe struggling to figure out other movies that he's in um oh boy this might be my first failure in a long time

and I hate that I uh might fail this on an actor that I love um what are other like period one of them got remade

in an American context I would say oh yeah hmm and it's kind of an ensemble comedy

I've never seen it but yeah I'm gonna directed by an American oh wait is he in the

American version is that what it is no no sorry anyway go on I'm just gonna throw out some things

that I know are wrong oh no no no no no he's amazing in this the assistant oh no incorrect he is amazing in the assistant though that that's like genius so no that's incorrect so damn uh two wrong guesses your years are 2007 and 2011 okay um so these are both post pride and prejudice uh one of them is a british movie that was remade in america ensemble did you say comedy yeah it does the original does have an american director though but yes right oh that's interesting yeah i don't know if that helps you any but uh and then the other one that you're missing is a kind of notorious adaptation of an oft adapted source material

notorious because it's bad or yeah yeah i got i'm pretty sure it got poor review i think it was yeah not met with it was kind of a it was a take it was a real uh uh stylistic take on this material ah uh uh was it like a robin hood it club like sort of similar van yeah you're not you're not far away from it it's also a a uh a director actress marriage right Patrick, I'm not wrong about that, right? A director-actress, marriage, right? The director and the star of it are one of the stars of it are married.

I believe. I believe so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that actress is, would kind of, you would expect her to appear in something like this, because she sort of only appears in things like this. In, like, medieval costume things, it sounds like if it's adjacent to Robin Hood. Things that maybe involve, you know, running and jumping. Yeah, the way... Oh, so it's like an action movie.

Like an action movie. Yeah. But it's like a Robin Hood. And based off of a very, very well-known book. Yes. Okay. Been adapted a few times in our lifetime, one of which famously had a

soundtrack song with three very famous singers. Three famous, like, female singers? No, three famous male singers who are all sort of famous like the three tenors.

Yeah, not quite tenors, but, like, probably around that same time that, like, the three tenors were, like, a thing culturally. We've talked about this song before. We've sort of, had some fun. Three men singing together.

Yeah. It's the only movie with three men singing together that we kind of gag over. Not because it's great, but it's because it's sort of ridiculous. Oh, okay. Wow. Wow. I have not bombed this hard in very long. No, I'm sorry.

Okay. So it's like medieval action. from a book that has been had several versions including one that had a song. Yes.

The director-actress marriage is one of those that like they're not like highly it's not one of those ones that it's like we think about this partnership as having created great art.

But it's it's sort of like Madonna and Guy Richie. is it they were already divorced by them it's not them but it's sort of like it's sort of low culture that has been like popular within its milieu but uh yeah action though yes decidedly action like kind of uh is it cape beck and sale and who she no but like it's the other it's the other pale it's close it's not cake beck and sale and the under underworld director it's the other ones it's the other two yeah but they make movies like the under

World movies. Yes. 100%. Yes. Including like a series that has had a lot of installments. Yeah. It's Milo Jovovich and the Resident Evil guy. Paul W. W. Anderson. Yes, yes. Still have no idea what this is. Okay. Obviously this movie like didn't hit my register or didn't make money or...

So she's like the lady in this, but the movie is about a number, a certain number of men. A specific number. A specific number of men, did they do a Three Musketeers movie? Yes. Fuck off. So now you understand why I was bringing up the earlier movie that had a song with three men. Oh, my God.

That's not just, who else is that besides Brian Adams? Rod Stewart and Sting. All for one, all for love. Hello. Hello. Absolutely not. Okay, so I still have another movie that is also, but this is the original and there was. There was an American remake, and this is from 2007, and it's a comedy, an ensemble comedy.

There is one American in the cast, though. There is. That's what sort of made me sort of raise an eyebrow, yes. Yeah. Can I get the American that's in the cast? Peter Dinklage. Yeah. Oh, it's death at a funeral. It is.

It is death at a funeral. Nor have I. Yeah. I did see it. I think. Wow. What did you think? Wow.

It was fun. Yeah. Ciotic known for. I have never done that poorly in a long time. Oh, my God. Well, I, if you will ever have me back, you can feel free to enjoy it. Okay. Like, just something.

Obviously, you're welcome back whenever. So, Joseph, for you. We are talking about Marguerette, a movie in which Kenneth Lonergan plays a father. So what did I pick for you, but a father in one of his other movies, Mr. Kyle Chandler. Oh, he's very good in Manchester by the sea. I just was watching screeners of the new television show that he's on that I don't know if I'm at liberty to talk about on air, but yeah. We'll leave it at that. Neat.

Any television for Kyle Chandler? There's no television. That's insane. No Friday Night Lights. Jesus, H. Oh, no, sorry, I was talking about bloodline. No, of course I was talking about it. All right.

Kyle Chandler, four films. No television. Is Manchester by the C, one of them? It is. All right. Is King Kong one? of them. How did you get King Kong? It's one of the few

Kyle Chandler movies that I think about. Oh, I don't think anybody thinks about him in that movie at all. I was like, he's going to get hung up on Ging Kong. Can we talk about? I don't think we unpacked this at the time of release. Kyle Chandler in Manchester

by the Sea plays Joe Chandler. No, I didn't know that. I didn't, I never clocked that. That's crazy. Oh. Wow. All right. I may be misremembering that he's in this movie, but I kind of don't think I am. Is he in Zero Dark 30?

He is in Zero Dark 30. Not on his... Is that one of them? Not on his known for. Okay. One strike. One strike. All right.

Kyle Chandler. The problem is, I'm going to start, I'm going to misconstrue Kyle Chandler dramatic film roles with John Ham dramatic film roles. I feel like part of me. wants to guess the town, but it's John Ham, who's in the town. Kyle Chandler is conceivably in the town. I was going to say,

it's not ruling out that Kyle Chandler is also in the town. He won't be there, like, the same way somebody is in Marguerette, just sort of want to... Right, right, right. Like Kristen Ritter is seen in a shop window. Saying she can't have the cowboy hat. That, oh my, all right, I was trying to figure out

where, because I saw Kristen Ritter's name in the cast list, and I was like, I did not see her. Like, I absolutely missed her in that, but, uh, all right. There was another actor in Margaret that I wanted to jot down and, um, I forgot to. It's filled with so many recognizable people. Yeah. It's more shocking who is not in Marguerette, especially, like, New York theater character actors. Like, why is Frank Wood not in this movie?

Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Um, okay. Kyle the Chan Chandler Wrong guess Two correct guesses

Two correct answers All right So there's got to be another like actiony thing That he's in Is it like This is wrong

But I'm going to guess the kingdom It is not the kingdom All right Your years are 2011 and 2012. He was in Marguerette, and I didn't know it. 2011 and 2012. All right.

Oh, wait. 2011 is Super 8, I'm pretty sure. It is Super 8. Another movie where he plays in. So 2012, a non-Zero Dark 30 movie that he was in in 2012. Okay. I don't remember him in this movie, but it is another movie. that is fully conceivable, that he is in it.

Was it an Oscar nominee in any way? It was an Oscar winner. Argo. It's Argo. That makes sense that he's an Argo. I don't remember him specifically in it, but that's part of the... That might have been me thinking he was in the town

as I was thinking of him in Argo. Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. There we go. What a ride, you guys. Two and a half hours of pure delight. Patrick Vell, literally, when I say come back anytime,

I truly mean it. Like, come back anytime. Start thinking about what the next movie you want to do with us is we very much will welcome you with open arms. This was really fantastic. We hope you had a good time. Oh, thank you so much. This was like the best time ever. It was just so much fun.

All right. Listeners, that is our episode. If you want more, this had Oscar Buzz. You can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar, Patrick. Let the listeners know what you would like them to seek out, if they would like to see more or hear more from you. Well, I am at Instagram at Patrick Vale, that's V-A-I-L-L, and on Twitter at Patrick underscore Vail, V-A-I-L, and to see me in something, stay tuned. There will be an announcement very soon.

perhaps some news along the way. All right, Chris, where... Yes, Chris, where can the listeners find you and your stuff? You can find me and my strident point of view on letterboxed and Twitter at Chris V-File. That's F-E-I-L. All right, and I am on Twitter at Joe Reed, Reed spelled R-E-I-D. I'm also on letterboxed as Joe Reed spelled the same way. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings,

for his fantastic artwork, and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility, so when you are exiting the fairway, please make sure you look both ways and then get home safely and write us a nice review. That is all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. You never fail

to satisfy Let's go Let's go You never fail to satisfy.