This Had Oscar Buzz - 184 – Rumor Has It

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

This week, we’re looking at the less fondly remembered half of Shirley MacLaine’s 2005 buzzed grandmothers (after praising In Her Shoes in a previous episode) with Rumor Has It. Starring an immediately post-Friends Jennifer Aniston as a woman who believes her grandmother was the inspiration The Graduate’s Mrs. Robinson, the film assembled a prestigious cast for its conceptual take … Continue reading "184 – Rumor Has It"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Mel and Heck. Grandma? I told you never to call me that in public. Did mom slip with someone before married dad? Bo Burroughs.

Who? Mom like Bo Burroughs. You seduced him, and then she ran off with him a week before the wedding. Isn't that man? I don't believe everything you see in the movies. Get me a copy of the graduate. It's my family, Jeff. We are the Robinsons.

Why has no one ever told me about this? Most of all, you have to hide it from the kids, cuckoo-cook. You're Mrs. Robinson. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast trying to find the perfect cowboy hat for our horse riding vacation. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my Mr. Robinson, Joe Reed. I have always said that Jesus loves me more than I will know.

So that fits. No. That fits. Hey, you started it. You started it with this Mr. Robinson business. You know, it works. It does. Well, works better than this movie.

It works better than the movie we're going to talk about. Oh, boy. Boy, oh, boy. You know what's so funny about this movie is... Everything. Well, yes. Unintentional. Except, I was going to say, except for how it's supposed to be.

I remember very vividly the buzz leading up to this movie. There was a lot of expectation on it for a lot of different reasons, all of which will sort of delve into, and then everybody saw it, and everybody was just like, well, no. And it's kind of gotten worse and worse in my memory, and also sort of more and more disposable, because there's just no reason to ever really talk about this movie. And so watching this for the podcast and researching it and discovering what a fraught production history it had that I kind of had no idea of.

I was really surprised that nobody really talks about it anymore because, like, all of the- I always thought that it was a Rob Reiner movie. I didn't know. It seems like it would be. And I guess that's maybe why he was sort of the no-brainer choice to sort of take it over when it was taken away from Ted Griffin. but Mr. Sutton Foster. Mr. Sutton Foster, among like many other things. So like Ted Griffin's one of those names who you just sort of like know from several different contexts,

one of them being this small little TV show he did for FX called Terriers that lasted one season that was so good. And like everybody who watched it like really, really sort of loved it and kind of rode for it, but it wasn't a lot of people who watched it. So it only lasted one season. And that was kind of his last thing that everybody liked, because after that he wrote Tower Heist, well, after that Tower Heist came out, he had co-written, and that was a really big disappointment. And he hasn't really done anything hugely of note since then. Tower Heist, the original controversial day-and-date movie. Okay, remind me what the controversy was there, because, like, there's so many things with, like, Rat Ratrampare movies that were problematic back then.

I think there were other problematic things, but that was, like, the first movie that tried to be, like, we're going to put this on VOD for 50 bucks during the holidays or something, or whenever that movie came out, they were going to try to. try it. It was the holidays. I'm pretty sure it was a December movie. And it got scrapped and November. Ultimately you know, no one really saw that movie and it was bad. That was around the time, was that

around the time that Brett Ratner was going to produce the Oscars and Eddie Murphy was going to host and he said that rehearsals for fags and they fired him. Is that the, was that it would have had to have been in time. I thought it was after Tower Heist, but maybe I'm wrong. A Tower Heist

is just the movie that I remember for them like the first big budget movie that they tried to do. Yes, this was. And it may not have even been day and date. It may have been like two weeks after the release was supposed to happen. The American release for Tower Heist was November 4th, 2011.

Brett Ratner resigned as producer of the Oscars on November 8th, 2011. So it was definitely that one, because that was the whole Eddie Murphy of it all. He was going to Eddie Murphy was going to host because that was his, you know, most recent director, and which that controversy, 2011 seems like a long time ago for that controversy and also like too long ago. Like, it's one of those things that doesn't really

fit in the timeline at all in terms of, because I also think that that gets conflated with the Kevin Hart Oscar. Uh-huh. The take-backsy thing where... Which is like, it feels like the Eddie Murphy hosting, like, controversy fallout thing was the beginning of people really not wanting to host the Oscars. Yes. Yes. That was when I think people first started grumbling that hosting the Oscars

was too much more trouble than it's worth. You're going to get canceled. You're going to whatever. To which I had always said, like, well, unless you have been on the record as saying rehearsals for fags, like I'm not sure what you're so worried about. Like, what exactly Jesus Christ?

Like this whole thing, if Brett Ratner can get canceled, what of anybody else? It's like, that's not really the logic that I think makes a whole lot of sense. Well, I do think that some of that gets overblown in terms of the whole Oscar hosting thing because it does feel like they're getting these people too late. Like, if you want Tom Holland to host the Oscars, you can't ask him two months before the Oscars. These are people who have like their schedules written out two years in advance. This was always the Billy Crystal thing where he was like, if I'm going to host the Oscars,

it's going to take like six months out of my life. So, you know, that becomes a thing that you really have to decide to commit to pretty early on. And yeah, all of a sudden now, because the Oscars seem to be in this constant state of flux in terms of what kind of show they want to produce. And we just had in the last week these announcements that these eight categories are now going to be presented off of the main telecast, and they're going to pre-record the red carpet, which is seriously the dumbest thing. Pre-record the red carpet and then hand out the awards in a pre-recorded manner

so that they can then sort of sprinkle them through the, I guess, ad bumpers through the show, which is... Everything's going to leak early. Everything's going to leak early. If your whole idea is that we want to get more people to watch the show, congratulations, you've got everybody to get all their information now on Twitter. Even the red carpets are going to leak early if they're trying to pre-record the red carpet. All of red carpet stuff's going to recreate...

Do you think Getty image? is going to, like, comply with your weird little embargo. Like, come on. They're shooting themselves in the foot because they're going to piss off enough people that, like, too late in the game, they're going to try to put things back on the ceremony, and it's going to be a mess. Yeah, it's going to be a total mess. I feel really bad at this point for Regina Hall and Wanda Sykes and Amy Schumer,

who now have to become the sort of flashpoint for an Oscar ceremony that is poised to seemingly have nobody like it now. Like, everybody is coming from a different angle of being sort of pre-disappointed by this. And I feel bad that the three of them are going to have to bear the brunt of that. And it's just stupid. It's just dumb. Did you hear, by the way, the other thing? This is the, I'm crossing my podcast streams.

Oh, no. Another thing. What now? Oh, no. Not your stories. Not one of your stories. No, I'm crossing the podcast streams from my Vue podcast. I talked about this briefly, about how it came out that

Whoopi Goldberg was in serious contention to host this year until she made her remark on the view about how the Holocaust wasn't about race and was suspended for two weeks. I mean, well, they probably did the right thing to both plug on that. Oh, definitely. But it's one of those, I mean, it was one of those things to solo host or to... To solo host, apparently, yes. Okay. They had offered it to, the word is that they had offered it to Steve Martin, Martin Short, and

Selena Gomez, which would have been a really kind of cool idea. And they... And I thought I heard it was Steve Martin and Martin Short that said no. Well, somebody said they couldn't schedule it. Like, again, because it's so late in the game, like, I'm surprised trying to wrangle three hosts. You know,

this is why we ended up with three hosts who don't really have a whole lot of relationship to one another, because the idea of trying to wrangle schedules for people who were, you know, for a specific three people, would have been very, very difficult. But anyway, so the what-ifs of this Oscar ceremony are already going to be probably better than what we end up getting. But I had for years been like,

bring Whoopi back, bring Whoopi back. She's an underrated Oscar host. She's better than you remember. And to find out that that was in the works, and then she shot herself in the foot by making the most unnecessary comment. Like, again, somebody who watches the view for a living, watching that segment like she really like it was a full on interjection kind of non sequitur

and I was just like why why did you say that so stupid anyway do we have any other Oscar rumors to talk about besides who is

possibly unvaccinated oh I mean that's the biggest of them all right I guess trying to figure out who this policy

but a lot of the people that some people have thrown around I mean, of the names, it's like, I don't understand the difference that the Academy is doing of if you are a nominee, you have to be vaccinated. But if you're a presenter or a performer, you don't. So, like, what's the difference? Like, those people are all interacting. Right.

Unless they're seating these people in separate areas and, you know, putting up plexiglass. Yeah, you're telling me Van Morrison is just going to show up to sing and then leave. Oh, I mean, I believe that Van Morrison is going to perform from, like, the rooftop of. the, you know, Roosevelt Hotel or whatever, and so, I mean, the what, the way they've been going with musical performances lately, where they sort of are, I would not be surprised if one or more of them are pre-recorded like they were last year. And so I know, like, Van Morrison's the most vile of the anti-vaxers and the one is sort of because, the most open, yeah. But, like, I don't think he's going to be the one who's going to be, like, mingling with other

people like it's this you know whichever one of last year's four winners which was like they that was a weird little blind item it's just like one of last year's winners is unvaccinated it's like try and guess who so and anthony hopkins didn't show up when he won so i kind of don't expect him to show up now just to present something so now it's like narrowed down to and uh i don't really expect uh eugenian to be there either if there are any kind of COVID concerns and travel restrictions and risks and anything like that. So we basically narrowed it down to Francis McDormid or Daniel Kalulia, like, flip a coin trying to figure it up.

Well, and everybody trying to say that Francis McDormand is definitely vaccinated because she participated in New York Film Festival, like, okay, that, like, I, I don't know. We, like, there's rumors about other people who participated in film festivals that are rumored to not be vaccinated. So I'm less convinced about Francis McDormons than other people. I don't know if I'm convinced in any way about Francis McDormand, but I don't think it's out of the question that she would be vaccinated, nor do I think it's out of the question that Daniel Calumia wouldn't be,

just because he's younger. So I don't really, I don't know. I don't know where to go with it. All of a sudden now, we are, but Jennifer Aniston's running around Pasadena trying to confirm or deny stories that we have heard in the ether. Serious rumors. Yes. I don't know what you're talking about.

We're here to talk about the Adele music video for Rumor House. I was sort of expecting you to open with like, you know, a line from the Adel song. Yeah. Like saying that I'm here as always with Bless His Soul, he's got his head in the clouds, Joe Reed. Yeah, basically. Basically, that's what I was expecting. Yes. Yeah.

Listen, I am new, not New Year or New Me, but, Maybe I'm turning a leaf. You were the one who started with some song lyrics earlier. So, like, we'll change hats, you know. It's true. It's true. Me and my boomer references, bringing Mrs. Robinson into this whole discussion. We're here to talk about the most bat-shit movie we've talked about in a while.

A movie that, like, could absolutely avoid, you know, making the audience think of incest, says, you know what, no. Let's try to bring some comedy out of potential incest. Let's also then bring it up again later on in the movie as a conversation. After we've already let it go. After we've settled that issue and settled it away, it's one of, I mean, we'll talk about it as we go along, but it's one of those movies that, sometimes you see a movie that, like, there was a good idea here, and it kind of got bungled in the execution. I agree, though.

I wonder if we think it's the same idea that is interesting about this. I don't think there's a good idea at the center of this. I think there's a very, very bad idea at the center of this that has on its margins. Every once in a while I'll see, like, there's a line in there that I'm like, oh, I like that line, maybe use it in a better movie.

The thing at the end, where she and Ruffalo get back together, and she says, I don't need I don't need to be with you, but I want to be with you. I'm like, that's a good line, in a better romance. like I would that would be a really kind of effective line the I think there's some thematic stuff that's interesting too for like the idea that her character is like I'm so different from my family I don't feel connected to my family yes surely there's some other like family that's my real fan like

there that's an interesting idea especially for like a movie that was released Christmas day you know when like people talked about knives out was the movie that people saw to get away from their, like, super conservative families. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. You're right. That's an interesting kind of concept. I just think the central nugget of this, which is...

What if the graduate? What if the graduate was real? But also, even that is, like, that wouldn't be so bad. What if the graduate is real? So, therefore, I am going to follow down... I, Jennifer Aniston, I'm going to follow down the rabbit hole of my family's sorted history, and... Meet this person who, in my mind, I have built up as maybe this guy is my father.

And then the second you find out that he's, the second that he tells you, essentially, that he couldn't be, that switch flips. Because of testicular trauma. Right. Blunt testicular trauma. That she fall, like, that she tumbles into bed with him. Like, the whole thing falls apart incredibly quickly. You have set your audience up to loathe this central romantic dallions you have in your movie because you've set the audience up with the expectation for so long that maybe he's her dad. So, like, I can't imagine anybody watching this movie and being like, oh, I hope they hook up.

Like, I hope these two, like, get together. Like, no. If they get away with anything, which I think they get away with nothing. But, like, if there's even the inkling of people giving it a moment's thought it's because they cast Kevin Costner. Like, maybe not in 2005 when this movie came out, but maybe in like 1995 or like 1990. If you said to

you know, an audience who was attracted to men, if you thought for a second Kevin Costner was your father, but then it proved to not be true, would you still then consider having sex with him? There might be a lot of people that would say,

yes, he, he, He had a time as a hunky actor. Chris, don't bring family dick into this whole thing. Like, I really don't... Oh, no. Sir, how dare you? I did do that. The interesting thing is this movie...

Well, this movie comes in the same year as better movies for a few of its co-stars. Kevin Costner, this is the same year that he did the upside of anger, which is, I think, his last great role. We, 1,000% still need to do that. I think we've been saying we need to do that movie since the beginning of time. It's not a bit where we keep saying we're going to do it and not doing it. It's not Matt Damon on Jimmy Kimmel or whatever. We are going to do it at some point. But also this is the same year's movie we have covered before, which is Shirley McLean in her shoes.

And it's interesting to put her, her characters have situationally kind of a lot of similarities. They're both grandmothers to grandmothers of two granddaughters who are the central, one of whom is the central focus of the movie in this case. case, who have a daughter who has since passed away and remain in kind of a, this one, it's less of a contentious relationship with the son-in-law, but they don't seem, there's a little bit of like an arm's-like thing there between them. And in this case, she is, well, she's kind of, she's not really horny grandma. She's just sort of like, uh, salty, sophisticated, don't call me grandma, I told you to never say that word around me, kind of a person.

She has a punchline about putting on a pot of bourbon. Yes. Whereas in her shoes, she's more of a Florida retirement home, you know, good-hearted, kind, you know, less... The hardship edges are for your benefit, not for an audience laugh line. Right, right. in her, and I think we all universally like in her, she's better. Lord knows I love a Shirley MacLean performance no matter what, but she's, the movie lets

her down, but I also don't necessarily think she's, it's not like this is this great, sort of like, she is, but it's not like, I'm not, I'm not putting this on a list of like great performances and bad movies or anything like that. So nobody's good in this movie is the problem. I feel bad for kind of everybody. Aniston's character is a terrible written character. character. Ruffalo is its C, although Ruffalo has a couple good moments, actually. There's moments where I was like, he added that line. He like ad-libbed some stuff to make it

seem like more fun or make it seem like he and Aniston have chemistry, which I really don't think they do. No, not at all. Not at all. But he has some life to him. There's the moment in the bathroom when she's telling him the whole story. The airplane bathroom? No. No, not that one. We'll get there. no, where she's explaining to him that she's sort of surmised that her family are the Robinsons. And how did I never, how did I never know about this before? And he just very tossed off goes, well, most of all, you have to hide it from the kids, cuckoochoo. And then McLean, like, opens the door into him, which is sort of slapsticky. But I'm like, that's good line delivery on Ruffalo's part. Like, but I feel bad for him. I feel bad for Jenkins

in this movie, although Jenkins is on a vibe that I generally like, which is sort of affably clueless, Dad. Mina Suvari is kind of at sea in this movie. You can see a better movie would have made her more sort of central to Aniston's character instead of kind of springing her on the movie last minute. Right. It's just not very good. And we find out in researching the movie, there are reasons why it's not good.

such a mess. Yeah. And we'll get into that probably after the plot description. But there's a lot more, there was a lot more mess behind the scenes of this movie than we realized at the time. Or than I realized at the time. There were like articles about it and whatnot, but yeah. Well, I want to talk about it further because like I was surprised and maybe it's that I forgot. But like, there wasn't an air of when this movie was released that it was tainted or anything. There wasn't, which is surprising because, again, like, there's a New York Times article at the time that is like Ted Griffin just got fired. Yeah, it was like right after, I'll read some excerpts from it once we're on the other side of the plot description because it's surprising

how candid there were, like, there were like anonymous sources, but like people were, you know, tell and tales out of school and whatnot. And the fact that the Times was comfortable running with the story makes it feel like there was, I feel like Ted Griffin was on the wrong side of people with some significant clout in the industry who were all sort of getting together and sort of telling their side of the story, which is interesting. Although I did find an interview where he talks a little bit about it. He doesn't really get specific, but between that Times article and what he says, I think I was able to sort of piece together what I assume was the deal and we'll talk about it. Okay. Well, let's

get into the plot description then so that we can get into it. Once again, we are here to talk about rumor has it, directed by one Rob Reiner, written, and I guess in part directed by Ted Griffin.

I imagine none of his directed footage is in the final movie. From what I understood, they basically started over. Well, I mean, he recast a bunch of people. Yeah, yes. Starring Jennifer Aniston, Kevin Costner, Mark Ruffalo, Shirley MacLean, Richard Jenkins, Christopher MacDonald, Kathy Bates, in a

caftan, and Mimosa, George Hamilton, as George Hamilton, Minasuvari, and Mike Vogel, the movie opened wide Christmas Day of 2005. It sure did. We'll talk about that, too. Mr. Robinson hyphenate Reed. Yes. Are you ready to give a 60-second plot description? Sure.

Why not? I'll go with it. Yes. All right. Your 60-second plot description for rumor has it starts now. All right, Jennifer Anderson is Sarah. She's flying to Pasadena with her fiancé, Jeff. She's sort of got a little bit of cold feet, obviously, about marrying him, and he's starting to get a little concerned. She's going to Pasadena for her sister's wedding. Her sister is a lot more into the idea of getting married. Her grandmother is Shirley MacLean. She finds out through a series of sort of convoluted whatever that her late mother and

this dalliance that she had before she got married were the basis for the novel that the graduate was based on. So Sarah goes digging into finding this guy whose name is Bo Burroughs. He's played by Kevin Costner. She initially thinks he's her dad. And then she finds out that he had blunt testicular trauma so he couldn't be her dad. So instead she tumbles into bed with him that night in San Francisco. She has a whole weekend with him. Her fiancé finds out there's a whole problem. Everybody goes back to Pasadena. The sister is having a crisis about going to Belize for her honeymoon. And Sarah finally works out that she's in love with Ruffalo and she wants to marry him and Bo Burroughs goes away and flies up plane somewhere, I guess, as rich people do.

I don't know. I don't think I left out anything too particularly important. I think the movie definitely tries really hard to be like, but it's Kevin Costner. He takes her in a plane that he flies. You would have sex with him, right? The problem with this movie at its core is you don't really want to see her with him. You don't really necessarily want to see her with Ruffalo either. There's no chemistry there. And if there's some chemistry with her and Costner, situationally, you're sort of repulsed by it. And most of these situations in a movie, I'm like, well, I just want this woman to maybe, like, be alone for a while and understand herself and, like, and just, you know, be okay with her. But even in this movie, I'm like, I don't

necessarily care about Sarah. I don't necessarily care about Jennifer Aniston's character enough to- Yeah, she's probably making a bad decision no matter what because she seems like kind of a mess and not an interesting one it's just like she seems like she'd be a chore to know in real life like honestly she does i kind of normally i'm not my sympathies in these situations very rarely go to the guy in this situation but i kind of am like run and don't look back mark ruffalo like there's also nothing wrong with that though like if it's a well-written character it can still make for a good romantic comedy. Totally.

Sally and when Harry met Sally is a chore to know in real life. Julia Roberts in my best friend's wedding is a chore to know in real life. But that's part of what makes their character arcs interesting. Like all she really has to do in this movie is have one conversation with her sister. Yes. And I guess a conversation with her dad. She has to like listen to her dad be like, no, your mom loved me and chose me. And it's like, okay.

yes um and i think ultimately because rhiner is brought in as a director you have those sort of rom-com expectations because of the what harry met sally of it all and there is that promise of this sort of difficult not necessarily flighty but just sort of like doesn't know what she wants the female main character and making her somebody who you want to see end up with the guy at the end. And this movie doesn't do that. It's ultimately not a Rob Reiner movie at all. And it was interesting sort of looking at his filmography and being like, oh, this was probably one of his, like, around the time when he was, like, stopped making good movies. And then I'm looking at his

filmography, and I'm like, his last good movie might be the American President in 1995. Like, I know James Woods, James Woods got the Oscar nomination for Ghosts of Mississippi, and so that movie wasn't necessarily a disaster or anything. But, like, it's not like anybody in 2022

is being like, I should watch Ghost of Mississippi. Like, nobody has ever heard that. It was seen as a disappointment at the time because I think it had higher expectations. Because, like, that's still in the afterglow. of a few good men. Totally. Totally.

It's less than like a decade removed from that. Well, I mean, his 80s were kind of this uninterrupted string of hits, where it's like, this is Spinal Tap 84, the Sheriffing, 85, which was like, you know, this small little rom-com, but it was like, fine. Stand By Me, 86, huge, huge hit. Princess Bride 87, Enduring Classic. When Harry Met Sally, Enduring Classic. Misery Enduring Classic.

Kathy Bates wins the Oscar. A few good men basically turned me into the monster you see here today. North is then the disaster, but almost like... Famous disaster. Famous disaster, but you would have to be, you can't get that kind

of disaster unless you're a director who has come off of like a decade of uninterrupted hits, right? And then rebounds from that disaster the very next year with the American president, which is a cable TV staple, like that is a you're flipping the channels and you find the american president like settle in

you're you're there you'll be watching at least a half an hour of the american president exactly exactly catch it in passing such a charming movie and then the the cliff she she drops out from under where it's goes to mississippi 96 the story of us 99 the most anonymous uh major release love story well i'd say the most anonymous, but like, get ready for the next 20 years. The next one. Alex and Emma, 2003. Kate Hudson, a brunette, Kate Hudson, which is just, that's a bad idea in general.

And Luke Wilson. Based on the poster, that's a movie about Kate Hudson and Luke Wilson staring at the moon. What is the central rom-com concept of Alex and Emma? I'll let you know the second I see it. I will absolutely

text you and let you know. Rumor has it is the next one after that. And then the bucket list, which is also a movie we have covered on this podcast before, is 07. Canonically, a great movie because it made the National Border Review Top 10, so I don't know what we're talking about. And then it's after the bucket list. And we must have talked about this when we did that podcast. Because, like, we did the bucket list a while ago.

I feel like we did that at the very beginning of the pandemic. I think that's right. But he's actually directed an incredible amount of movies and none of, which have you seen? I must have said at the time that past guest of the podcast Rob Shear and I did see, and so it goes in a theater,

stoned off our asses because that was probably the only way we were going to do that. I remember virtually nothing about it other than the fact that it starred Michael Douglas and Diane Keaton, but he did a movie called Flipt in 2010. That is

according to the poster, about two people sitting on a tree branch. He did something called the magic of Belle Isle with Morgan Freeman. And so it goes, like I said, with Diane Keaton and Michael Douglas. Something called being Charlie with Nick Robinson

and Common. All right. LBJ, which played Tiff, I remember the one year, and I had this fleeting, chaotic thought of like, should I see LBJ? Should I see the Rob Reiner movie? And then literally, like, looked at IMDB and looked at the, like, litany of past

Rob Reiner movies from the teens, and I was just like, well, no, I shouldn't. Like, that's a terrible idea. Woody Harrelson as Lyndon Johnson in that. And then his most recent film that he directed, and starred in, by the way, was called Shock and Aw. And it was about the U.S. journalists fighting to get to the truth in the lead-up to the American invasion of Iraq in 2003, starring Woody Harrelson, Rob Reiner, James Marsden, and Tommy Lee Jones.

And again, if anybody saw that movie, much less in a theater, even if you saw it wherever, I would be fascinated, but have a lot of questions. I would have a lot of questions for you. I'm sure some of our listeners' dads have seen it. I mean, it does sort of seem like that thing. You know, I've set up my parents on my Netflix in the last few years. It took them a while. They are creatures of habit. They are, you know, cable TV people.

We just are now weaning them onto YouTube TV. They just cut the cord, and we're in the transition period, and we're all going to get through it, and we're all going to be fine. But they're just now sort of getting into kind of delving into Netflix. I've sort of created a profile for them and keep adding things onto whatever. And you create what they're watching? My recommendations for my parents have always been a hilarious funhouse carnival of thwarted expectations. they never like what I think they're going to like and they end up liking things that I never

thought they would like. It's so strange. But so they don't really like they're not plugged into the same things that I'm plugged into so like what do they care if nobody's heard of this movie, shock and awe? It's there, it's in front of them, they read the description,

they're interested in it, they click, they watch it. And so everyone's going back and talking to my parents about what they watch on TV is this. Did they often mention things to you that you have truly never heard of? Yes, but then it's stuff that I've definitely heard of and would have, like, my mom was talking to me about watching the entirety of the night before, the Riz Ahmed HBO miniseries. I didn't even watch all of the night before. That I would never have recommended it.

And then I said after, I was like, did you like it? And she was like, well, it was horribly violent. I'm like, yeah, it was. And I wouldn't have kind of pegged that for you. This sort of is part and parcel of the thing I said a few weeks ago about how my dad was telling me how much, I don't know if I would say how much he loved the lobster, but he watched all of the lobster and was intrigued by it, for sure. My mom watched all of the Tony Collette Merritt Weaver miniser miniseries on Netflix.

Which is supposed to be great. It was called Unbelievable. It was fantastic. But it's about like a rape investigation. Like that's not, I mean, I wouldn't have thought that my mom would go for something that grim. So. Don't you think our parents are a little more desensitized to things like that, though, because they watch, like, nothing but Law and Order SVU?

That's my dad. My mom, though, watches nothing but, like, MSNBC, which is, like, desensitization in a different way. So... All my mom watches is, like, law and order and truly every costume drama the BBC has ever produced, because she'll send me things like, have you heard of this? It was really wonderful. And I'm like, no. what is it? And I look it up, and it's just like

two sisters in a bonnet. My parents together will watch PBS stuff like, um, uh, oh,

what's the one? It's all these like sort of like, what small English town solving mysteries or whatever. And then also like call the midwife or whatever, which I guess is pretty, you know, harrowing and whatnot.

Um, but, uh, like last tango in Halifax and stuff like that. And, uh, But even in that, I'm just like, oh, so you obviously watch like Granchester. And they're like, no, we don't like Granchester.

I'm like, well, then I don't know. I genuinely don't. Like, whatever. Like, watch what you want and come talk to me about it later. I don't know. So I'm sure. They just probably have to come on things themselves. They don't really, like, seek something out on a recommendation.

It just has to be sitting in front of them. And yes. And yet sometimes, like, remember when we saw Truth at Tiff and I'm like, my parents are going to fucking love this movie. Well, that I was writing about. I didn't see truth with you. I was in the Tiff then. Oh, okay.

Well, then when I saw a truth at Tiff, that was my dominant, that's the thing I basically, that was my review of that movie is just like my parents are going to love it. And it turned out that they did. So, okay. That one worked. Anyway, what was I talking about? Rob Reiner. Rob Reiner's mom and dad movies, essentially.

Okay, but I feel like Rob Reiner, except for the past, you know, 20 years, obviously. But, like, that core early group of Rob Reiner movie, like I'm sure I said this during our bucket list episode but like Rob Reiner probably does deserve more credit for those movies I know that a lot of people like relay those down to the screenplay or like spinal tap you know Christopher Gist is the one that gets the credit for those for that movie but you know like he did shepherd in some really just like kind of unclockwiseable movies um but at the same time I think why he doesn't is because, like, a lot of those movies are very different.

Even the comedies are not the same type of movie. So, like, he does have this kind of anonymous directorial vibe. Well, it is, as you sort of mentioned it, it's the fact that he tends to direct movies by screenwriters with very signature styles and filmographies. We're like, this is Spinal Tap is very Christopher Guest. William Goldman doesn't necessarily have like a writerly signature, but like he's so, he's a famous screenwriter and he, you know, the fact that he wrote the screenplays for the Princess Bride and Misery, you feel like there are, you know, strong, a strong hand of the writer in those. Obviously, misery and Stand By Me are both Stephen King adaptations and like that becomes sort of the signature of that, a few good men. and the American president are both sork and scripts.

That's a very heavy signature when Harry met Sally is Nora Ephron, like a genre unto herself. So, yeah, it becomes less the Rob Reiner stamp than it is the writer of those movies, which sort of then brings us to the Ted Griffin of it all, with rumor has it. So how familiar were you with Ted Griffin as a writer before coming to this movie? The thing is, like, I didn't have any name recognition to him, but then when you look at his actual film credits, and it's kind of really varied because, like, there's other bombs in there, like Ravenus, which I know has its fans now, but was a huge failure on release. But then you also have these massive hits like Ocean's 11, and Soderberg was apparently an EP on this movie and was part. of Ted Griffin's firing.

And then Matchstick Men, which is Ridley Scott. I'd love to talk about that movie. Rumor has it. He writes one, or co-writes, I guess, one episode of The Shield. And then, which I think puts him enough in the FX pipeline, that they let him to create Terriers, which is this very kind of shaggy, San Diego, public private eyes, rather, Donald Logue and Michael Raymond James play them. And it's as much about sort of like their friendship as they ends up, you know, they're solving little cases. It's sort

of quasi-procedural, but also there's at least one sort of overarching case that they keep trying to sort of pick away at. And it's very vibesy. It was very kind of laid back and fun. And it was just one of those shows that, again, nobody watched it, but the people who were really, really sad that it got canceled. And, oh, and he also wrote, co-wrote Killers, which was the Ashton Coucher Catherine Hegel movie, which I've not seen, so I can't really speak to. I haven't either.

That, but I think it was like one of those, I critically received very poorly, but like middling box office, it was a summer release, right? Yeah, I don't think it bombed, but it wasn't a hit. So there's this interview, a sort of three-part interview on YouTube with him

from some sort of thing or another and sort of, which is where I got a little bit of the tidbits about rumor has it from him, but he talks about how the writer friends that he sort of is friends with and kind of

bounces ideas off each other and they read each other's work and, you know, give each other helpful critique and that kind of stuff. It's him. Scott Frank, who wrote the out-of-sight script, also annoyed everybody at the Emmys this past year by talking a lot about the Queen's Gambit. Everybody got so mad at somebody for accepting

an award apparently. You can even see his cast members, though, behind him, like, looking at each other, like, what the fuck? Yes. Okay. Like, yes. I got a little bit annoyed where it was just like, what are you watching an award show for then? Like, let people

fucking accept awards. Let people go on and on. Like, no, I want to see crazy people at award shows. too so like whatever so anyway uh scott frank and then richard legravinace who among other things um was a

co-writer on well wrote the mirror has two faces the movie you and katie and i all watch separately have been losing our minds about all like it's been our like comfort throughout the past week and a half um i want to look up his filmography really quickly though just because like i think he's one of those elephants wrote water for elephants was a really wild like writer directorial career. I'm pretty sure. P.S. I love you, the last five years.

He also had a, must have been uncredited. But I remember Julia Roberts thanks him in her acceptance speech for Aaron Brockovich. And even though Susanna Grant wrote that script, I think he must have had some sort of hand in it because she thanked him. Mirror has two faces, The Horse Whisperer, Living Out Loud, which he also directed. Fantasy Dream Sequence with Holly Hunter. Yes. I like that movie a lot. That was going around on Twitter this week for whatever reason.

Really? The choreographed dance moment from that. I'm less and less online, so I must have missed that. But it's fabulous. The Hillary Swank Double, which he wrote and directed, Freedom Writers and, P.S. I Love You. Uncredited Unconviction. Yes, Water for Elephants. Oh, my God, my beloved, beautiful creatures.

supernatural teen romance beautiful creatures still gotta see beautiful creatures and then he directed the film adaptation of the last five years which I also saw at Toronto so like interesting like but my point was in bringing up those writers was it's this sort of class

of professional writers who like yes sometimes direct their own stuff but are mostly just kind of lifers in this Hollywood pipeline of script writing and sometimes there are writers who we think of is these sort of like writer directors, everything's a passion project, P.T. Anderson and Wes Anderson and like stuff where like they are their own brand. And then there are these writers who feel more punch-clocky, which is not to devalue their work

at all. But in... No, I mean, Ted Levine gave us the script for Oceans 11. And so I think in a Hollywood economy that is sort of squeezing. out that middle class, you'll see sort of like less and less of this. But Ted Griffin writing the screenplay solo, I'm pretty sure, has a solo screenplay credit for Oceans 11. And that's like, I mean, our, you know, friends at blank check talk about like the guarantor movie, like the movie that's sort of like, you know, gets you the next several phases of your career sort of like nails it down. Like that's it for him. And so rumor has it is kind of

the passion project for him he's originally from pasadena this is not like his story but there is even something i think in his life about someone in his family knew people who it was said was were sort of like part of the inspiration for it's not not like one story like in this but i think you can see the where he would have like gotten this idea for this movie from uh that's why there's so much like only in pasadena stuff about this movie yeah like it it it You can definitely, it feels like they brought in some uncredited writers to, like, make it just more rom-comy. But it definitely feels like Rob Reiner is ushering in someone else's vision, but like none of what their actual vision is. Well, they wouldn't have had time to rewrite it because Ted Griffin had shot three weeks worth of film and then they brought in Rob Reiner.

So unless they wanted to throw the whole thing in to turn around and lose all the stars that they had, they basically had to go with Griffin's script mostly as it was. But it feels like people just trying their best to make it work. And like I would have a hard time believing that they didn't like tweak some stuff on set. Sure. But there was only probably so much that could get overhauled because they had to just like. Right. Right. Like they weren't like doing plot changes or things like that. You know, like you have, you know, you have like sets secured and like vacation secured. et cetera, blah, blah, blah, but it does feel like it's a compromised type of comedic take

in that the movie wants to be about like Pasadena culture and like a whole vibe that it's in the hands of a director who doesn't really have a handful on creating that, you know, it's more about the lore of the graduate, and it's more about this kind of absurd, unbuyable, you know, concept. Yeah. So I brought up this Times article from August of 2004. So the byline on this, oh, it's Ann Thompson. That's interesting. Oh, fascinating.

Yes. So New York Times article, August 25, 2004, reports that on the August 6th, Warner Brothers booted Ted Griffin as director of his original story inspired by the 1967 movie The Graduate goes on to talk about how rare that is to actually remove

a director midstream after they've started filming. He was as I said three weeks into filming. They were able to keep the stars of the movie, which at that point were Aniston, McLean, Kevin Costner. They recast Charlie Hunnam

with Mike Vogel. they recast Leslie and Warren with Kathy Bates. They recast, I'm not sure who Greta Skokke was supposed to be, but she was also... Maybe the sister? No, because Mina Suvari was one of the ones that the event got kept. Christopher McDonald was also a recast. He was originally played by somebody named Tony Bill. So whatever this, like, dinner that she goes to with Beau Burroughs, with reshot.

I imagine so, yes. Well, from what I understand, pretty much everything had been reshot. Let me find the part where they talk about that. But so there was a lot of speculation at the time about what exactly was the problem. He had fired Ed Lachman as cinematographer previous to Griffin had fired Ed Lachman, which was a warning sign. Griffin being a first-time director, this Ann Thompson's article sort of mentions that, like, Ed Lachman was known kind of as a first-time director whisperer.

He had done the cinematography for the Virgin Suicides and Sophia Coppola. And apparently he was sort of known for being the cinematographer you hire for a first-time director to sort of like help them, you know, get the ropes of it, essentially. And Griffin had fired him. There were initial rumors that it was Costner who had a problem with him. and that that was the reason, and then that got debunked because Kossner hadn't started filming his scenes yet, and apparently also had, like, lent... Because those characters that got replaced are all scenes with him. Well, I imagine that there were some delays, and I think those delays then made maybe some people unavailable or something.

I'm not sure. But apparently that was the story, and that Kossner had essentially. like lent out his house for Ted Griffin to stay in for a little bit after the fact so like that kind of shot that down there were speculation that it was Shirley McLean who had the problem and then Shirley McLean went on the record and was just like

I had no problem with him she was like you know these kind of things happened but like I don't have any negative feelings about him so it did seem like some of that Jennifer Aniston apparently was like dissatisfied with the look

of the film or something and how it was going on. And the other side of it was... Well, the movie as it stands now looks like shit. Yes. Yes. Exactly. But so apparently another thing was... So Soderberg is producer on this. And this was after Oceans 11, obviously. And then so apparently, after they made Oceans 11, what here was Oceans 12? Was Oceans 12, 2004? Maybe.

So apparently they had wanted Griffin to do the script for Oceans 12. He at that point was in some degree of development on Rumor Hazett. Rumor Hazett's the project that he cares about. And he essentially is just like, I don't want to do Oceans 12, I want to do this one. And so there was rumored to be some that that sort of like drove something of a wedge between him and Soderberg. and that Soderberg was the one who, like, did the firing. Like Soderberg was the one who, like, called Griffin into his office and fired him. And then so from this interview that I saw with Ted Griffin after the fact,

although it seemed like it wasn't too long after the movie, but he sort of, he doesn't really talk in specifics, but he talks about how there was a degree of protection for him that he thought was there on the film that wasn't there. And that seemed to me to be referring to Soderberg. And so later in this conversation, the interviewer is like, you know, maybe if, you know, sometimes you want to have a director, he's, because they're all talking in abstracts. And the guy was like, well, maybe if Ridley Scott, who you had worked with on Matchstick Man had been a producer on the movie, he would have looked out for you. And Ted Griffin goes, well, that's kind of what I thought the situation was on this movie.

but it was with a different director. And then he leaves it at that. He never says Soderberg, but like, I mean, at that point, process of elimination, it's not Antonia Bird. You know what I mean? Well, but my thing is I thought, to my understanding, the movie was so behind schedule. That was a big one. That was a few weeks. That is Soderberg's a producer, and like a movie goes that off the rails as soon as it starts filming, basically.

Yeah. That makes sense that he fired. him. And it's not, you know, you've been backstabbed. It's that, you know, you couldn't get the fucking movie together. I don't know. But anyway, this article's linked- Does the New York Times piece describe the filming as like that behind schedule? It does. It describes the filming as being quickly, sort of quickly behind schedule within just a few weeks. And but also, again, describes this rumored tension between Soderberg. and Griffin because of Oceans 12 and also rumored not necessarily tension with Jennifer Aniston, but that Jennifer Anderson was not reportedly not happy with how things were going.

So that article is linked to off of the rumor has at Wikipedia page. If anybody wants to go and check that out, that's pretty illuminating. Again, for an article written while that was going on. And in the times, like, sometimes you would almost, like, you'd expect to see it in, like, you know, deadline or even like one of the trade papers or something like that but the fact that it was in

the times was interesting to me but anyway so Reiner gets brought on and we get the movie that we get which is really bad so I mean like yeah for a lot of the reasons that we've also said it's also just like I don't understand these people signing on for it can you think of other examples of that are like, it feels like more something we do now, that it's borrowing on the nostalgia of some cultural flashpoint. I almost feel like, I wonder if Ted Griffin's vision for this

was less, you know, centered fully on, like, the graduate than it is, you know, Pasadena. But, like, it goes really hard on the graduate in a way that's not satisfying, you know, It doesn't really do, I think maybe aside from Shirley McLean's performance, and I do think she's good in the movie, it doesn't really actually do anything with that of the graduate. It certainly doesn't try to borrow its visual style. It doesn't, you know. Right, right.

Its references are really just down to those three relationships at the center of it, but not really what that movie was satirizing. Well, and even at the beginning of the movie, where. it sort of talks about this little piece of history, and then you get these moments where people around town are gossiping about it, and like, who could it be? And, you know, I heard it was such and such, but such and such didn't have a daughter, and the one woman was just like, yeah, but she had a homosexual son, all these sort of, like, gossipy society ladies in Pasadena society. And, yeah, that all felt like decently winky, but it also felt like it was setting up a story that was going to be as much about the kind of, you know, the rumor of it all, right?

The Pasadena of it all, because it made it all seem very important. And that ultimately all gets back, Bernard, for this focus on this romance between Aniston and Costner, and maybe that's what got changed or got, like, you know, more of a spotlight on it, because it's hard to imagine that anybody thought that there was going to be, that the audience would be invested in that couple. And yet the language of the movie is putting us all in that space where either we're rooting for them or else what are we watching? Why are we spending so much time in San Francisco? Right.

a little like, you know, cliffside brunch or whatever. And so the balance of it is all off. On top of it's just icky. It's just icky. It's super icky. Yeah. We spend as much time with them together as we spent with the idea in our heads that this man could be her father. So it's like you can't just, even with an actor that,

Many people find very attractive. You can't just wipe that from the audience's mind. Right. It doesn't work that way. You can't wipe it from the audience's mind. And because you can't do that, then we also then look at her character and be like, how can you wipe that out of your mind so quickly? Like, I can't forget that this was a thing.

Why can you switch gears so quickly, isn't it? And the fact that, again, they bring it up again, like a half hour later into the movie where she meets his son and all of a sudden thinks that he was lying about the blunt testicular whatever and he actually And then she has to again explain it to her sister that she's like, no, I didn't that's not what this, like it's

it's not as funny as the movie thinks it is. No, no. And, uh, yeah. There's also this sort of like long anticipated confrontation between Shirley McLean and Kevin Costner that isn't as good as the movie needs it to be

and I just, I just I struggle to find I just struggle to find out what the ideal version of this movie was supposed to be. Like, what's the best case scenario of this movie? Because, like, I just think it's so flawed at its center. Right. I don't know what's appealing, especially to these actors about it,

unless there is, unless, like, unless you went even further with that stuff about the graduate. And it, like, truly was, like, this kind of. of riff or tribute to this, like, you know, legendary movie that, like, you know, defined a generation or whatever. Right. But I don't know. And it almost made me think about Reiner within a certain context of, like, was Reiner for a period chasing, like, Mike Nichols? Because Mike Nichols is a director who could do a lot of different things and a lot of different genre. And I think we maybe talk about him.

more more in touch with what he's doing today than we might have you know 20 years ago 30 years ago but I don't know he was a director who could do a lot of things and of course the graduate is the movie that he won his director Oscar for

yes yep Nichols is another director though who was not as the authorial voice didn't come from the scripts right where he could sort of he could direct a movie and not have it feel like, oh, this is a Mike Nichols story, right? Like, Working Girl.

Right, like he does Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, which is like one of the greatest place of all time, and yet the movie still feels like it's Mike Nichols' voice coming through as much as Albies. And I think he's more successful than Reiner in that regard, in that he's able to take these stories that are like adaptations of plays or books or, Like, he did his own Sorkin script at one point, although I guess the less said about Charlie Wilson's war, maybe the better. But you look at his, you know, catch-22 based on a novel, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf based on a play? He also worked with Nora Ephron.

With Nora Ephron, a couple of times. Less successful. Less successful, but I think they had a stronger creative partnership, maybe. Not that necessarily, like, Ephron and Reiner didn't, but, like, she stayed close to him. Postcards from The Edge is Carrie Fisher's story, right? The Birdcage is obviously a remake of La Cajafol. Primary Colors is very famously based on a book. Closer is based on a play.

Angels in America is also one of the, like, most notorious greatest plays ever written, but it feels as much Mike Nichols as it does, Tony Kushner's. Right, right. Yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at, is that Nichols, I think, is more successful at keeping his signature on something that has primarily as its signature a story that is not his. And so, which is not to discredit Rob Reiner and his best stuff, but like, I mean, it's no, saying you're not as good as Mike Nichols is no slight on anybody because very few people meet that standard. God, I love Mike Nichols so much. I have this eternal project where I want to watch all of the Mike Nichols movies that I haven't watched. And I sort of get back to it and fits and starts.

And it's only really a small handful of things at this point. I, in the last couple of years, saw Carnal Knowledge in Biloxi Blues for the first time. I am forever on the precipice of finally watching Wolf. It hasn't happened yet, but it will. Wolf is wild. what is what is what is bizarre to me is Wolf is not one of the movies well that Mike Nichols made while addicted to drugs

right um right um what a what a weird movie yeah I did I posted a clip last week on Twitter of just because I came across it of Shirley McLean in Postcards from the Edge the famous uh my skirt twirled up it twirled up Remember my 17th birthday party when you lifted your skirt up in front of all those people?

I did not lift my skirt. It twirled up! You only remember the bad stuff, don't you? What about the big band that I got to play at that party? Do you remember that? No! You only remember that my skirt accidentally twirled up! And you weren't wearing any underwear.

Well! And just sort of my continuing bafflement, that Meryl got nominated for that in Best Actors, and rightly so. But the fact that Shirley MacLean, as a former Oscar winner, playing Debbie Reynolds, essentially, in this well-received movie, in this very sort of spotlight role, doesn't get nominated for Best Supporting Actress. Do we know how Debbie Reynolds felt about that movie and performance, though? I mean, I thought that they were friends. I thought that she was friends with McLean. No, maybe not.

I mean, it would make sense. They all, they sort of all traveled in similar circles, right? Weren't they also? Remember that TV movie that they made where Debbie Reynolds and Elizabeth Taylor finally co-starred in something? And it was called, and it was written by Carrie Fisher. It was called These Old Broads. Hold on a second. Let me look this up.

Because I want to say McLean might have been one of them. It was like Joan Collins, Elizabeth Taylor, Debbie Reynolds, and give me a second. These Old Broads, 2001 made for television movie. yes, Debbie Reynolds, Elizabeth Taylor, Joan Collins, Shirley MacLean. So, yeah, they were all sort of in the same kind of, you know, circles, essentially. But yeah, that, to me, that Shirley Maclean snub for postcards from The Edge will never make sense. But anyway. I wonder if people, I just wonder if people felt in the way that, you know, Merrill's performance feels

more removed from Carrie Fisher herself, but it's also Carrie Fisher authoring it if it felt, you know, maybe a little untouchable. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Like, people were afraid of slighting Debbie Reynolds. I feel like in the ecosystem, though, Shirley McLean had more juice than Debbie Reynolds at that point. So...

I suppose that's true. Though, what is fascinating about Shirley McLean, because, like, when we're talking about rumor hazards, It's like as far as awards potential that it was seen for. I mean, a lot of it was Shirley McLean, but of course it's like the graduate as well. Yes, yes. What's fascinating about Shirley McLean, she hasn't been nominated since she won. Right, right, which is wild.

Well, the other thing about the Postcards from the Edge thing is it's the very next year after Steele Magnolias, where I would also argue that she probably would have deserved a supporting actress nomination. it makes a little more sense that it goes to Julia Roberts because she's the ascendant ingenue and like that makes sense within the Oscars tendencies right but like as somebody who has watched that movie a dozen or more times uh she's the one I'd nominate it goes like McLean Dukakis Parton in terms of the supporting roles field is obviously your lead McLean Dukakis Parton Roberts Hannah right oh I love Daryl Hannah, though. I don't not like

Daryl Hannah, but I can't rank her above any of the other four. I also just love that part. How do you rank them? I'm going to put you on the spot. No, that's impossible. You can't make me do that. I just did. You're going to hang me out to

dry? You're going to hang me out to dry with these listeners and put me on the mark? Like, come on. I can't. Okay, the one that I think is in last place, I just can't bring myself to say that it's last place. Because all of them are first place in my heart. Oh, you politician.

You absolutely politician. You cannot make me insert like a redacted sound in here. Like, you are quite simply. You cannot make me put Dolly Parton in last place for anything. All right, you said it. I mean, I was

going to call you a pig from hell, but at least you said it. You put yourself out there. Listen, I, listen. Everybody in that movie is great. That's why it's interesting to try and rank them because you're ranking best on best. Right. It is unwell and absurd

that Sally Field was not nominated for that movie. Anyway, you heard it here. Listeners Chris Fyle thinks Daryl Hannah is better than Dolly Parton, uh, canonically and... In that movie? There we go. In that movie. Nope. It's on... They are all exceptional.

Uh, the fact that... You cannot bring the masses to be mad at me. You are a pig from hell. Listen, I, I hope Dolly forgives me. It is best on best, like you said. Dolly funded the vaccine. That's right. We're all standing here

well and with full lung capacity because of Dolly Parton. The thing about Dolly and like all of the things that she does for like charity work and like for the vaccine, her answer to like people expect her to give some like

profound like answer and like she's always just like just a fundamentally good person. She's always just like well I thought it was the thing to do to help people and you know we just really need whatever so I was like well why don't I do this and it's just like you know like yeah it's great all right global treasure I can't believe we've got all these tangents in this episode about rumor has it I can't believe we don't want to talk about the movie the movie at hand here no no no we brought up Shirley McLean which is really the thing to talk about with Shirley McLean and I think you kind of talked about how the parallels between the movie the movie at hand here. I know no no no we brought up Shirley McLean which is really the thing to talk about how the parallels between this role and the one that, you know, got further in her shoes are actually really interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think that the dead daughter thing in both of them is really interesting and the fact that she's sort of maintaining this close relationship with closer to maybe one

a granddaughter than the other, which is really interesting. And I, do you get the sense in this movie that she has any time for Minasuvari's character whatsoever? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Oh, poor Minasurri. What is that character, though? No, nothing. It's a nothing of a character.

It's nothing to that family, because it's always, it's just like everybody's like, well, I guess she's getting married. Well, I guess she had a mental breakdown. Well, like, yeah. Did you, did her fiancé look familiar to you at all? Not at all. Okay. He was in that movie Latter Days. Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no, no. The gay Mormon explicit sex scene, whatever, not necessarily, I bet you by, if I watched it again today, by today's standards of what is allowed on television and in film, I would be like, well, this is nothing. But like at the time, yeah, back in that time, if there was any boot knocking whatsoever, it was considered explicit, like.

It was exactly, it was an oasis in the desert. It was also, it was from that early aughts era. In the desert of the Oregon Trail. Basically. Joseph Smith going to. It was in that early aughts era

of gay-themed rom-coms that would get these sort of cursory, small releases in theater. And... You were all terrible. Yes, but watchable.

Like, I would say in their... And again, this was, we were, desperate for anything we were really really you don't understand it these you people today who you know have all of these gay themed projects out there you don't understand how much we needed movies like all over the guy or um all right some of these like okay broken hearts club is not a good movie and it's yet a movie that i love and so what are we going to do about that i'm not sure um the edge of 17 the one with um oh lea delari is in it have you seen that one um yeah that's the one that takes place at cedar point that's not cedar point right exactly i think that's a really

good movie i really liked that movie so uh anyway that except i think it actually is filmed at cedar point but they can't like say cedar point right probably true anyway there's a charm to those movies. Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss, which is not a really good movie and not really my favorite of those, but like that's sort of that era, right? I ended up writing about a lot of those who know as at Decider, and I really, again, there's

a nostalgia for them, but it's also just like those movies were there for me when like there really were not anything to talk about, anything to sort of watch that... In that, like, rom-com vein.

Right. If you want, like, gay cinema and queer cinema. It's going to be a little bit more subversive. It's like Todd Haynes's poison at that time. Right. It's things like that. Sure. And if... But for comfort watching... If I think, I think... Not much. Yes. So, yes, we can admit that I was not cool enough at 21, 22, that age. I should have been a cooler gay guy. I wasn't. I've never been. So, yeah. Gregoracky stuff came later for me. Todd Haynes stuff came later. for me. I was a big old square and

I gravitated to basic stuff. So you got Miguel. By nature, that wasn't basic. It just wasn't good. Fine. Yes. I'm not disagreeing with you that it wasn't good. I still liked it. The first time I really

think I saw like a gay sex scene in like an upbeat movie was like Wet Hot American Summer. And that doesn't count because that's comedy. that's comedy gay sex I would argue that sex scene isn't played as a joke but that's the joke yeah the joke is that it's not played it like for for wet hot American summer for that genre of comedy where everything is so arch the joke the fact that it's not played as a joke is the joke sure anyway not that I disliked it like yeah it was hot watching Michael Ian Black and Bradley Cooper like fucking a shed even by implication But, yeah, anyway. Let's talk about...

We'll move on to the IMDB game. We should talk about Jennifer Aniston a little bit, because this comes off the heels of Friends ending. Yes. Friends Edited at 04? Yes. And I... It's not... This wasn't the first Post Friends movie.

The First Post Friends movie was also a disaster. It was derailed. Oh, God. Which was also, I believe, the first one. Einstein Co. Movie? DeRail's one of those movies, one of those movie titles that you feel like should be on a list of never use these titles in a movie because it too easily lends itself to this movie was a disaster headlines. Too easily lends itself to a bad headline when it has a poor opening box office. Exactly.

Exactly. Yes. What's the twist in that movie? The twist in that movie is that she's a villain, but like there's something else to it. I've never seen it. I forget. There's something that's kind of, like, stupid about it. I forget.

I mean, Vincent Cassell is in it, so I'm sure, like, the twist is that, like, he's hot. Like, that's sort of the point of every Vincent Cassell character. It's just, like, I'm a villain, but also you definitely want to fuck me. So, yeah. It was a bumpy post-friends run for Jennifer Aniston, but she, like, immediately turns around after this and does friends with money. Which we've talked about, and we both love, yes. And love her in it. Yes.

Yeah, she's great. Friends with Money is Our The Good Girl. I agree. Yes. All right. Which we haven't done The Good Girl. Maybe we'll eventually do it. The one thing I also wanted to talk about was this released on Christmas Day in 2005.

And even if this movie wasn't bad, it was going to have a hard time fighting for space because this was one of those. years where it was a very back-ended Oscar season even though the winner ended up being a movie that had been from technically the year before but like almost everything else broke back mountains a December movie Munich was a very late movie one of those like is Spielberg gonna be done with it on time kind of movies Munich releases the same weekend as rumor has it and on 532 screens outgross's rumor has it by like $600,000.

It's, rumor has it... I think Munich opened the week, like, this was a year that like Christmas was on a Sunday or Monday. Yes. And I think rumor has it opened on the Christmas day, whereas Munich had the full weekend to make money. I see. Well, regardless, rumor has it does not do very well. Other new movies... Rumor has it should make more on, you know, four times the amount of screens, though, right?

Yeah. like yes and a whole hour less in screen time yeah um this was a weird Christmas at the movies this was the second week of king Kong peter jackson's king Kong the third week of chronicles of narnia those two movies were still at the top of the charts uh fun with dick and jane which is a movie that nobody ever thinks about anymore uh was top five cheaper by the dozen was new that weekend also top five. I'm, it's fascinating to me that third week of Memoirs of a Geisha, that's still ranking high. I think that probably platformed though. Yes, because this was, it was expanded. It was expanding. Um, but like, Siriana at this point wasn't expanding. And, uh, it was in

its fifth week of release. And barely, rumor has it barely, Outgross is that, that weekend. So, I don't know. It's all wild. Brokeback Mountain had not yet expanded by this point. That's in the top 15. The producers platformed, that's interesting. With those refuse, it absolutely did.

Well, no. Which was like a mistake, a full mistake for that movie. Yeah, like that's surprising to me that it didn't just sort of open wide. that weekend. Anyway. Did it platform by like only playing the Ziegfeld for a week or something? Maybe. It's very possible. But even this, in its second week, it's only up to 975 screens.

Interesting. Interesting indeed. Anyway, but yeah, Munich was new that week. The Ringer, which was the Johnny Knoxville competes in the Special Olympics movie that like we all decided to not ever talk about because it was too awful. and yeah, Munich was new, rumor has it. Wolf Creek, I can't imagine you've seen Wolf Creek. I have seen Wolf Creek. It is scary and nasty and Australian and violent and kind of notoriously.

So I remember there was like a big sort of, I mean, not big, whatever, but like contained brouhaha about how violent that movie was. Well, that violent and released on Christmas. It's violent without the gore. Like, you feel like the emotional impact of that violence. I remember not really being scared by it, but, like, finding it disturbing. Yeah, it's very disturbing. It ultimately got lumped into the, like, hostile, like, torture porn type of thing, even though you really don't see gore.

Right, right. Yeah, exactly. Wait, I want to go through my notes one more time. We talked about Steve Sandbosk. Oh, Mike Vogel looks a whole mess in this movie, and yet I absolutely 100% would, and I don't want to take any questions about it at this time. Pasadena, yada, that George Hamilton joke is such a weird, it's such an odd Hollywood kind of a joke of like that.

That was the moment where I just wanted to scream at the TV, what the hell is this movie? Yes. Who is this movie for? Because Jennifer Anderson's like, there's that guy over there who looks like George Hamilton. Kemp Kossner's like, that is George Hamilton. But, like, why?

Why? also I think somewhat timely to what's going on there's a whole thing about Ruffalo trying to make small talk with Richard Jenkins about the Rams leaving Los Angeles because at this point the Rams were in St. Louis and of course now

the Rams are back in Los Angeles and our Super Bowl champions so we really have come full circle so good for Richard Jenkins's character in this movie he must be very happy right now that's all we need a like you know shock jock type, you know, chime or something to

drop us a sound clip whenever sports come up. No, I find it charming. You can even get sports on our podcast. All right. We are varied and diverse in terms of what we talk about. Let's go to IMDB game. You can mock me. You can mock me at another time. I'm not mocking you. I'm saying... You can other me for my taste in ephemera another time. I love you. I say it would love. Would you like to explain what the IMDB game is? Sure. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice only performance, or acting, sorry, or non-acting credits. We mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints.

Thus ever was the IMDB game. Fantastic. Are you going to give her guest first this week? I'll give first. All right. All right. So I, when I talked about how the last Rob Reiner directed movie that I saw in theaters was, and so it goes with stars. Michael Douglas and Diane Keaton, they have a romance.

It's a whole thing. We've somehow never done Diane Keaton on the IMD game. So I thought I would correct that. right now. So, Chris, do it. Annie Hall? Correct. Her Oscar win. Something's got to give. Something's got to give her last Oscar nomination. The first Wives Club?

No, even though it should be. Strike one. Oh, see, that made a lot of money and people still watch it. It was a big old hit. Interesting. There's going to be something bad on here. Book Club? No, even though that was her most recent hit. All right, two strikes. Your answers are 1975 and 2005.

2005 is Family Stone. Correct, the Family Stone. Okay, so 75 is before Annie Hall. Yes. So I'm guessing, well, no, wait, is... That's neither God. father. Right. Those were 72 and 74.

So it's got to be one of the other Woody Allens, but I don't know which one she's in. It's one I had never heard of. Oh, so it's not like sleeper? No. I mean, also, there are maybe

Woody Allen movies that I've never heard of that are well known, and I just sort of missed it. Right. Um, it's, it is, um, Sam? No. Okay. It's kind of, uh, pertinent to current events. Interesting.

I mean, is it pertinent to current events? Is there, uh, like, I don't know. It's obviously not the Oscars. It's not... Is it a war movie? Yeah. Great.

Is it Woody Allen? Yes. She won best actress at the Faroe Island Film Festival. Ah. Okay. Yeah. I really don't think I know... All right. It is a 1975 war comedy called Love and Death.

I know that only by title. I didn't realize that was before Annie Hall, though. Yeah, according to IMDB, it is 1975. I wonder if the release, whether that was a, because it was a Berlin Film Festival movie, but it looks like it released in New York City in June of 1975 as well. So there you go. There we go.

Yeah, that's a, that's an odd one. Three kind of somewhat predictable movies for Dan Keaton and then a really hard one. That's so weird. I wouldn't be surprised if that changes by the time that this episode airs. But it's even surprising that it would be that, like, top five, top six, you know what I mean? Right, right. I don't know. Maybe there was some piece about a post.

I don't know. Yeah. Um, okay, so for you, I went somewhat down the root of the graduate. Uh, this is all about like people, well, Richard Jenkins at least is someone married to a character from the graduate. So I went with someone married to someone from the graduate. And I have for you, Mel Brooks. Oh, boy. Now, all of these are everything that's.

on his known for he is on there for the acting credit okay so it's not anything that he's directed but is not in some of these he has directed but but there but it's not like uh dracula dead and loving it or something like that that it's not i'm pretty sure he's in dracula yeah that's true he's yeah usually he i loved that movie as a dumb is he in the producers i'm trying to think of like a melbrook's movie that he's not in well anyway whatever i guess i'm getting in the realm of making you confirm or deny things that might be on it. Yeah, before you've made a guess. All right.

So I'm going to say Blazing Saddles. Correct. I'm going to say History of the World Part 1. Yes. All right. I can't remember whether he's in Young Frankenstein. I can't remember whether he's in the producers.

He's probably in the producers and the small producers. Uh, which producers. Oh. Uh, 20005 producers. Correct. Uh, okay. All right. And then, for a perfect score,

Spaceballs. Oh, my God, you got a perfect score. Ah, right. All right. I haven't had one of those in a while. Spaceballs is so stupid. I should watch Spaceball. It's so funny.

I love space balls. It's so funny. It's so dumb. Dot Matrix is my calling card for every time anybody on drag race tries something in gold that doesn't work for me. Bag of Chips trying to dress as an Oscar in the UK versus the world, which was horrible. And why is your Oscar having shoulder accoutrements? So, like, of course I said she looked like Dot Matrix from Space.

baseballs because uh dot matrix actually has a poofy skirt and shoulder pads in that movie like you look like whatever anyway alas alas i think that is our episode i think so you guys want more this head oscarbuzz you can check out our tumbler at this head oscarbust dot tumbler dot com please also follow us on twitter at head underscore oscar underscore buzz joe where can the listeners find more of you twitter at joe Reed, read, read spelled R-E-I-D, letterboxed, Joe Reed, read-spelled the same way. And I am also on Twitter in the letterbox at Krispy File. That is

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