This Had Oscar Buzz - 203 – Martha Marcy May Marlene

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

One of the major stories out of 2011′s Sundance Film Festival was the arrival of Elizabeth Olsen, a new actress who just happened to be the younger sibling of the Olsen twins. In Sean Durkin’s debut Martha Marcy May Marlene, Olsen stars as a young woman who escapes a cult and copes with her fractured … Continue reading "203 – Martha Marcy May Marlene"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. What happened to you? You're a teacher and a leader, Marcy.

Now, prove it. Shoot it. They're living animals. So shoot Max then. Go ahead. I know who I am. I am a teacher and a leader. You just never let me be that.

I don't think she should stay with us anymore. We can't ignore the fact that her behavior is insane. I'm her only family. We have to leave. We all have to leave. What happened? I don't know. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast,

The Thinks It's Vodka Clock Clock. Every week on this head Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here as always with my teacher. and leader, Joe Reed. I'm a teacher, I'm a leader, I'm a facilitator,

I'm a, I always think that she says she's a thinker, but like, isn't that a line from something else? It might be. I wonder if that's, if that quote is in the, in the IMDB quotes. Let me look that up real quick. She certainly does, you know, I'm a teacher and a leader,

you just never let me be that, but now I am. A teacher and a leader? I mean, that feels like, I mean, I like that line because, for a lot of reasons, but it also feels like, you know, cult vocab. You know, how like you, the telltale sign for a cult is there. They use very specific words for things. They have, you know, that's, who was I talking to about this recently? I think I was just talking to my sister about one of the nexium docs or whatever.

And it's just like, yeah. One of the 15 nexium docs. Right. And it's just like, it's that thing of like, how do you know you're in a cult without having realized that you're in a cult? And it's just like, yeah, you use like very specific vocab words for things that, that, you know, for very simple things, whatever. I don't know, where everybody uses the same verbiage. If you've ever worked in retail, it's very similar. Like when I was watching The Vow, I was like, this is a lot like, you know, retail development skill, like.

It's 15 pieces of flair. It's like sashes, right? Like, that's, that's basically it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I would fall into this cult. Life is a cult. Okay, I always... There's no gay people in this cult. This is the thing. I always say, I always worry. My thing about Goop is that I watch Goop and I'm like, oh, I'm much more susceptible to cults than I thought I would be. But it's not this. It's not the Martha Marcy and Marlene cult, which, doesn't seem to offer me anything. It offers manual labor, and no creature comforts, and no television seemingly, and, like, group sleeping dynamics. It's just, like, no sexual autonomy. There's nothing. Orgies are like, that doesn't seem nice.

There's nothing where I watch this, and I'm like, that's how they'd get me. Like, maybe Brady Corby, but, like, even that, like, not really. I don't know. Okay, we're going to be asking this. question about a few people in this movie. Is it Corbe or Corbett? I used to say Corbett, and now I've been lured over to feeling like if he was not born with the name Corbe, at some point he decided to, he's like, he feels like the kind of person who's like, it's Corbe. Like, let's pronounce him Corby. I don't know. I've actually never heard it pronounced. How I would maybe be drawn into

this cult. Is it Dezia or Dizia? Dizia, I'm pretty sure. I would probably follow Maria Dizia into a cult. Yeah, she's fantastic. She's so good. We'll talk about her later on, but this was a... We'll talk about the whole, like, ecosystem of, like, the people involved in this movie and how it branches out into, like, other movies, like, movies we could talk about and, like, movies that, like, I don't know.

The Sean Durkin thing, like, there's also, like, in the Venn diagram, there's an Antonio Campos relation. of course, there's like it brings you into Brady Corby or Brady Corbett, and it's, what is it about these movies that they're constantly fascinated about putting Maria Dizia in violent situation? Yeah. Wait, what else are you thinking of when you say that? I mean, not directly in Christine, but like...

Sure. Voxlux kind of famously opens with her getting shot, basically in the face. Oh, is she the teacher in that classroom? She's the teacher in Vox Lux. I forgot about that. Yeah. She really does show up in kind of everything. She was, speaking of Antonio Campos, he directed most of the episodes, if not all of them, of the staircase.

And she played the other non-Rosmarie DeWitt sister in the staircase. We haven't really unhashed the staircase together. How did you end up on that? I loved it. I thought it was fantastic. I was, it started to lose me for a second. I still think it probably would have worked better as a five-episode series and not. It was eight, right? Eight episode series?

Yeah, yeah. I think once, unfortunately, I tweeted this and I stand by it, even though it sounds insane, it's the only thing I've ever watched where I'm like, we probably could have used a lot less, Julia Pinoche, through no fault of her own, but I think progressing the story to the point where her character enters into it, I don't necessarily need it, and yet, here's what I will also say. I think the series as a whole pivots, or not pivots

exactly, but like exists both as a crime drama and a family drama. And I was surprised at how much by the end of it it landed for me as a family drama. As a family drama, I think it's better than the rest of it. And that's why

you cast like Sophie Turner. You know what I mean? Like it was sort of a joke at the beginning of like, why is Sophie Turner in this nothing role or whatever? And by the end you're just like, I came around to the fact that like, oh, okay, this is about in part, like the destruction of

this family, this sort of cobbled together family, and whether it was a house built on sand this whole time and yada, yada. And it's just also like Colin Firth is phenomenal. Like Colin Firth is phenomenal. Yeah, he really is fantastic. I'm fine

settling on the show. I liked it significantly less while like I was engaged the whole time it was one of those things that I'm halfway through I'm like I'm not going to know until I'm on the other side of this if I think it's good or not yeah I I'm fine settling on it being a vessel for what I think are some really incredible performances but like not a satisfying or um all that remarkable series on its own like everybody is uniformly great. I think Tony Colette is doing things that maybe only she can do. Yes.

And they are very lucky that she said yes to kind of all of the bat-shit things that she is tasked to do, including all of those death sequences. Yes. And having her ass eaten on screen by Colin Firth. Because when it was in the close-up, I was like, obviously, that's a stand-in, but I guess Colin Firth is going for it. And then they pulled back to show the whole thing. And I was like, committed performers. Yeah.

Adore them for that. Also, it was insane how many bats were living in that attic. I will never get over that scene where she chases them all out of the attic. And you're just like, there were... And then Tony Colette rises from, like, a squat and says, I am Batman. Essentially, there were like hundreds of bats in that attic. I will never get over it. I will never be able to stop thinking about it.

She shows up in the... the next episode with a utility belts. She's, like, grappling onto the top of, like, town hall. I'm not in a position usually to say fuck Robert Pattinson, but fuck Robert Pattinson, Tony Collette is our new Batman. That's, I will not rest until we get that now. I am your mother and also Batman. That's her, that's her big line. But yeah, I really did like the staircase. I also have a lot less squeamishness than seemingly a lot of people do about the true crime genre. I kind of, it doesn't bother me.

I know a lot of people feel like they're sort of are taking these kind of moral imperative stands against it or whatever, and it's bad for the world and whatever. I could give a shit. Honestly, I feel like landscapers did that better than the staircase did, and I know nobody watched landscapes. I didn't watch landscapers. And, like, I ultimately feel like the staircase just, like, approaches that topic and then kind of backs off of it. Yeah. And, like, I kind of wish that it was all that. Like, at a certain point, like, it says all that it has to say about that, and then there's three more episodes.

Yeah, I think that was maybe my one problem with it, is that it did feel at times, like, it had run out of momentum. him, and I think it's somewhat it regains it by the end, but there is, um, there is definitely a point around episode six, I think, where I'm like, why are we still, why are, why are we still showing? Like, why is the show still happening? So, um, but yeah, I really liked it. The, the Antonio Campos of it all with relation to Sean Durkin is that he's in that sort of, not exactly collective, well, sort of. It's called, um, borderline films. And it's, It's Sean Durkin, Antonio Campus, and then Josh Mond, who directed that movie James White with Chris Abbott, who is also briefly... And he produced a bunch of these movies that we've mentioned already, including Martha Marcy May and Marlene, which we're here to talk about.

They're all producers on each other's movies. They all went to... They share a lot of the same actors, so it's like, clearly there's a vibe that, like, a lot of these performers are attracted to, and they're all kind of interested. in the same things. They all went to NYU together. They're all Tish graduates, which I know like flips a lot of people's switches or whatever and makes them angry at these people unnecessarily. I think they're, I mean, I don't have a ton to say about Josh Modg, mostly because

they never saw James White, and that's still the only feature he directed. I've seen most of Antonio Campos' movies. The one that I haven't seen is after school, which is their first one that they all sort of worked on together, which I tried to watch, and I like won't go to in depth of this movie, because it's a movie we could eventually talk about. I tried to do Christine on my flight. Oh, Christine's not an airplane movie? No, I got a half hour into it, and I was like, I don't think so, guys.

I watched, like, what did I watch on my car? Have you never seen it before? A first time watched it. Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. And that's why I was like, I can throw this on it on a plane. Turns out, nope. No, no, no, not a plane movie. After school is interesting.

I'd never seen that movie, but I watched. I read a plot synopsis of it and then I watched the trailer and of course you kind of can't talk about it now because it's Ezra Miller in the lead role Isra Miller being violent

Yeah Yes Well It's like a school shooting movie It's not It's a It's a These two girls

overdose by It's a drug overdose With drugs that are tainted with rat poison And and Ezra Miller plays a character who comes upon them and essentially like sits down with them and watches them die.

And so clearly this was like the role that got Ezra Miller, the we need to talk about Kevin role, which is the same year as Martha Marcy May and Marlene actually. A movie that we will now never be able to do. Yeah, yes. Even though they are not part of the conversation of that movie. When you talk about that movie, I mean, I realize some people like their performance in that movie. movie. I think they give a very good performance in that movie. Everything else, notwithstanding, I am not in a position to talk about Ezra Miller's psychological state or crimes they may have

committed. But, like, I think it's a tremendous performance in that movie. And that movie doesn't succeed. As good as much as Tildes-Witten is the show there, I think that movie doesn't succeed if that role is not played very, very well. But the thing about after-school was it had a ton, seemingly, just from watching the trailer, and I know this is not, you know, you can't glean anything for real off of a trailer. But just from the look of it feels like it's borrowing a lot from Michael Hanukkah and a lot from that sort of mid-2000s, mid-auts, Gus Van Sant, period, elephant specifically. And that feels like, I don't know if you can necessarily find those influences specifically in Martha Marcy and Marlene, but it definitely

feels like a thing that has influenced sort of the three of these guys going forward. I don't know. It's an interesting trio in that they don't really get talked about a lot. And it's because Antonio Campos aside, the other two haven't really directed that many movies. Between them, they've only directed three movies. Mond and Durbin. You and I were people who loved and were incredibly excited for The Nest when it was happening during the pandemic. And that's his second feature. There's a whole decade. there. And, like, Sean Durkin had done some TV. He'd had proposed projects that didn't happen. Like, I think he was one of many people attached to do a Janus Joplin biopic. Oh, I don't think I realized that.

I was trying to remember, and I didn't have time to look it up. But I forget if he was the Nina Arianda, Janice Joplin, or if he was the Amy Adams, Janice Joplin. It would make sense just, on a superficial level that he would have been the Nina Arianda one, because so many of the performers in these movies seem to be pulled from New York theater performers.

Maria Dizia being one. Cynthia Nixon and James White being one. Honestly, give us the Maria Dizia Janice Joplin. For real. Although I think Nina Ariana would also destroy it. And also sort of like New York theater in that

early 2010s period. Like, it feels like very, very sort of, but I also, I think of that collective, I think Campos's stuff because he's done more projects than everybody else, the tone and the success sort of varies. Obviously, his most recent film is The Devil all the time, which is a mess that does have some interesting bits in it, but only because I think when you throw that many things at the wall, certain things are going to turn out okay anyway. Christine, I think, is very, very good and daring.

Simon Killer feels pretentious a little. But Simon Killer is his first feature, right? No, after school is his first feature, but Simon Killer was the one that followed that up. I still feel like Sean Durkin, of the three of them, feels like the most elegant of the three in terms of filmmaking style. And certainly, I think the progression from Martha Marcy to The Nest bears that out. I think The Nest is an incredibly assured piece of directing. I said when I saw that movie at the time, between that and Martha Marcy May Marlene, I was like, if Sean Durkan ever decides to make an actual horror movie, it's going to be on

because the way that he sort of weaves horror elements into two movies that are ultimately not horror is real interesting and real good. Yeah, the Nest, which is a haunted house movie with no ghosts. Yeah, yeah. The ghost is capitalism. Yes. Um, honestly. Like, and I just think he's incredibly talented for only having made two movies, and, uh, they just announced something. The Zach Efron, um, like, it sounds very fox catcher, which, which like Foxcatcher seems like a movie Sean Durkin could have made. Zechafron is attached to it. Oh, it's the Von Erick family.

It's the wrestling movie, yes. Which, knowing wrestling as I do, that story of that family is sort of infamous, this dynasty of wrestlers from the South who almost all of the sons in this family met untimely, sad, untimely ends to one degree or another. so it's an incredibly rich and ultimately tragic story and it's not

you know it's once again Sean Durkin not doing an actual horror movie so whatever I guess I'll have to keep waiting for that one but I'm real

real interested to see where that goes but I mean we've laid a pretty firm foundation of like what these movies are we should get into Martha Marcy Mae Marlene

we should So I might make you just do the plot description now. Let's not go crazy on these listeners and do another 45 minutes in. Listeners, Gary's, we are here to talk about Martha Marcy May Marlene, written and directed by Sean Durkin, starring a breakthrough. We haven't even mentioned her name yet. I know. Elizabeth Olson, the incredible John Hawks, Sarah Paulson, Hugh Dancy, Brady Corbett Corbett. Maria Dizia,

Dizia, Christopher Abbott, Julia Garner, and Louisa Krauss. The movie opened in limited release on October 21st, 2011, after debuting of the Sundance Film Festival, playing Cannes and Toronto as well. Yes.

Mr. Joe Reed. Sure. Are you ready to give? I actually think this is going to be kind of difficult because there's an A plot and a B plot, happening simultaneously? Yes.

I kind of want to talk about them as A plots and B plots and see which you think is the A plot of the B plot. Yeah. Okay. But for Martha Marcy and A. Marlene, are you ready for your 60-second plot description? Yes.

All right, then your time starts now. All right, Elizabeth Olsen plays Martha, who as we begin our tale, is running away from a commune slash cult where she's been living for several years. She calls her sister Lucy to come pick her up, even though she doesn't know where she is, and she returns to stay with Lucy

and her capitalist twad of a husband named Ted. Through flashbacks, we see moments of Martha's life in the cult where she was given the name Marcy May by the leader Patrick, who has sex with the female cult members, often forcibly, and we see him rape Martha early on. As she becomes more indoctrinated, she falls in line with the cult's practices, even going so far as to drug another young woman

so that Patrick can rape her and indoctrinate her in the cult. When the cult starts home invasions, and they murder a man is when Martha finally realizes she needs to escape. Meanwhile, she's having a terrible time with her sister, from whom she was estranged even before she joined the cult. Martha's lost all sense of proper socialization. She's paranoid that the cult members are out to get her. She's traumatized.

She kind of hates her bougie sister and the aforementioned twat of a husband. When things finally get too out of control, Lucy pays for Martha to go to a psychiatric treatment center. But on the way, Martha still thinks the cult is following her and won't ever let her go. Under the 60 seconds, congratulations, sir. You did an incredible job. I left a lot of detail out. There's a lot of detail in this that actually is what sort of makes it. movie that you kind of marinate in

not just the vibe of the movie but in God this is going to be so hard to get through this episode without saying trauma so much. I know it's true that. The trauma that she's gone through and the disorientation that she experiences both within the cult and then once she leaves

it as well the type of hard wiring of her brain that has been altered. Well she's what, she's 22 when she escapes I believe that was at least in the in the Wikipedia description. I don't know if they,

I couldn't remember whether they said that explicitly in the movie or not, but, and you get the sense that she'd been in the cults for several years. So at, like,

when we see her, sort of in the earliest flashbacks, she's not like a high schooler, but like, I would believe she's probably like 18, 19 years old when she sort of joins this cult. It feels like she was in it

for around three years, just sort of by, you know, how the flashbacks kind of, And, like, as the cult is beginning to grow, but, like, as you see time pass, you can see they're not really adding new people to it. They're just, like, their own little commune. Well, Julia Garner is the one sort of... Who's added, right? So that we can see that Martha eventually plays a role in the abuse that's happening. I wanted to avoid the term grooming just because it's become so, you know, hot button these days.

But that's, like, classic, like, cult grooming practices, right? Where she's, you know, she's making her feel good about it. And she gives her the drugged, you know, whatever, wheat grass, disgusting smoothie thing. Yeah. And we see also this, like, chain of abuse, right? Because who's the one who's helping her crush the pills into the smoothie? It's Maria Dizia's character. Maria Dizia, who is the...

Who kills the guy eventually. Right, but who is also the mother of the baby that when Elizabeth Olson is going through the house and just like, oh, this is the baby. And Julia Garner feels like very unsure about whether she wants to like take care of this baby. And she's like, I don't have to like watch the baby, right? And she's like, no, you'll find other ways to fit in or whatever. But it feels like we're getting a sense of this kind of ecosystem, but also this chain of command, almost. We're like, you know, Maria Dizia helped indoctrinate Martha.

And then Martha is now helping indoctrinate Julia Garner. I almost said Kelly Garner. God, whatever happened to Kelly Garner, remember that actress? Aw. She was in Lars and the Real Girl, among other things. She's got in Larson the Real Girl. She is. But anyway, you get the sense that Julia Garner, if, you know, the cult keeps going and she sticks around in it long enough that she'll eventually, you know, indoctrinate somebody else into it, and it goes on and on and on.

And obviously, this feels like, I read somewhere that Dirkin made the active choice to not get too far. into the cult's belief system or, like, goals. Do you know what I mean? You don't really get a sense of the sort of bigger picture. It's not like we see a ton of scenes of John Hawks' character pontificating greatly. We get, it's a lot sort of smaller moments of control. And we get a little sense of, like, what he appeals to in these women, which is, don't you think the world is bullshit?

haven't your, you know, parents failed you, don't you feel a lack of love in your life, a lack of belonging, or whatever, all these ways that he gets to them. But this isn't really a movie about a cult. Right. Which makes sense in the title. The title isn't, you know, Patrick's... It's the different fractures of her identity that happen by the experience of being in a cult, because Martha's her birth name, Marcy May is the name that the cult leader gives her, and Marlene is the like front facing persona when it's like a code word it's it's like a code name they all answer the phone all these women answer the phone saying their name is marlene so that they can't be identified if like whatever investigators come a calling or somebody's parents come calling or

whatever right right um I mean this is a movie that I kind of loved from the jump it was interesting. What movie did you mention earlier about a trailer? This movie has a very, very like, at the time, kind of coming out of nowhere, very kind of

bracing trailer because it's just that call. I don't remember it specifically. That's interesting. It's the call. It basically hinges on the call that Martha makes when she escapes to her sister, and like, which not only kind of announces this movie,

as, like, not a horror movie, but about, uh, some pretty scary shit. Um, and also kind of announces Elizabeth Olson as this, like, huge breakthrough performance because, like, the movie hinges on her, but, like, the trailer itself does. Yeah. Um, in kind of like an announcement way of, like, here's this performer we're going to be talking about. Yeah. Um, I don't know where I was going with that, but, um, I love this movie very early on.

I feel like as I've aged with it I have a little bit more like snags mostly to do with like I was saying that A plot and B plot of it in that I think I think the movie thinks that

the recovery, the escape is the A plot and is treating the cult stuff like it's the B plot but I think the opposite is actually true because you get kind of a climax, and maybe this is part of the point. I just, I question how effective it is.

The cult plot of the movie has, like, climax resolution, et cetera, because, like, the climax of that story is when they kill that guy, and then we know she escapes. And the, there is less resolution and less, like, forward momentum. with the other story and like you get that an incredible final shot that still scares the fucking shit out of me how fast that car advances on them yeah yeah um and like obviously what that the final feeling you're supposed to be left with is even if that's not the cult finally finding her and coming to get her she'll never know peace now exactly she'll never be able to find peace and i think the movie

like that's a simplistic idea but the movie does it so effectively and, like, viscerally in a way that, like, scares the shit out of you. Especially because it comes right off of she goes swimming and there's that guy watching her. Which is so creepy. And if you pay attention in the final shot, I think they used the same actor of the guy that was watching her. Because when you get in the car, he gets in the car. He's wearing a white shirt and the guy that was watching her was wearing a white shirt. And it looks conceivably like it could be the same guy.

And, of course, you're also meant to question because of the way. the movie's been structured so far, is, is that interaction even real, like, you know, has she been built up to, does she have so much paranoia built up in her that, like, not only will she not know, like, peace because of what she's gone through, but, like, will she even be able to trust that, like, what she's feeling, what she's seeing, right, what she's sensing in her environment around her is real or, like, yeah, well. imagination. And sort of to your point about what's the A plot and what's the B plot, I think there's also a way to view this movie as A and B plots, the distinction between them becomes so fuzzy in her head that there maybe is not a separation or as much of a separation between them as we would traditionally think. I think so much of the movie becomes about, and I think one of the, Roger Ebert mostly really likes this movie. I think he gave it three, and a half out of four stars.

But his one snag with it was he thought that the sort of gotcha editing where you think that you're still in one timeline and you're in the other. He thought it was a little too slick. I don't know if I necessarily agree with that because I feel like I think that's the story. The story is that her, she's not, she may have escaped. physically this place, but she has not escaped this place in her mind, and it's bleeding into her life after the fact, and it's hampering her from maybe rebuilding a connection with her sister, although there's a way to look at this to be very dubious as to whether that

was ever a possibility to begin with. Maybe that connection was severed long before she even enjoying the cult. But anyway, I feel like that kind of trixie editing feels like the point rather than an embellishment, if that makes sense. No, I think it's the point, too. I think it's just that there's moments where it is better deployed than others. And sometimes it feels a little like, like, there's a shot where she's in one storyline, she's standing she's getting ready to stand up and then in the other story you see her like fully stand up and it's it's things like that where you're maybe telegraphing what you're doing to the point that it distracts you from what you're actually doing maybe sure but like there are times in this movie where it is really actually disorienting that like you can't tell i felt that with the scene where you see her like

pee herself when she's sleeping. Yeah. On this rewatch, because I was like, I actually can't remember which storyline this is in right now. Right, right, right. But, no, I do like this movie. I think that

some of, and of course it is it is the point, but like, as I've rewatched it, I it's maybe that I thought there was more there with the sister stuff with the you dancey stuff.

Yeah. And now I'm like, that chunk of the movie isn't as satisfying as I would like it to be. But it is still. Yeah. I still think this is a really good movie. Oh, yeah. I think it's fantastic. Yeah.

We're fans of this movie. I'm going to propose that we kind of put a pin in the Elizabeth Olson and save that kind of for last, just because that's what brings us into the Oscar conversation more than the others. I want to talk about Sarah Paulson. And there's a lot to talk about with his best actress, right? Right. Well, I want to get to the rest of the cast then because, and start with Sarah Paulson as Lucy, the sister, because this is a really interesting sort of a juncture in her career. Because 2011, this movie comes out. It's also the first, that's the year that the first season of American Horror Story comes out. And that she's in three episodes of that. She's a guest star only. But then that becomes kind of. the main spoke of her career, even though she's definitely, she continues to be in other things, but like the American Horror Story slash American Crime Story, the Ryan Murphy of it all becomes so much- Well, and this is the American Horror Story before we knew that the whole

plan was to make it an anthology series. Like people thought that they were watching Connie Britain be in some role that was intended to be forever, right? I don't even remember who Sarah Paulson was that season. She was the psychic that. Jessica Lang sort of consults towards the end. I think maybe after Jessica Lang's daughter is killed. But she's a psychic and she ends up, I think she ends up laying some groundwork for the sort of the jump to whatever the next season, whatever connection there was to the next season. Because the next season was asylum and she's essentially one of the leads. She and Lang and Evan Peters are sort of three leads of that season. And that's sort of when she becomes the centerpiece of Ryan Murphy's sort of television empire. But before that, she was a classic character actress in film and television who would show up in a bunch of things. And it was one of those, she's one of those performers who were

like, once you learned who her name was, you had already seen her probably in a dozen and things. The very first thing I remember seeing her in, and it wasn't even a show that I watched, but CBS had this show called American Gothic in the mid-90s. That was this kind of X-Files-ish, sort of supernatural

I don't think I've ever heard of this show. It was in, it only lasted one season. It was her, Lucas Black, right around the time of Slingblade and Gary Cole were in this. But I remember that all sounds fully feasible. The ads for it, I saw a ton, especially watching, because you watch NFL football around September on a network, and you get all of that shows like, here's what all the new shows

are, whatever. And it was this really creepy trailer for this show. And Sarah Paulson played this like teenage girl who kept in the trailer, the little bit you got on TV, she kept saying someone's at the door. And I remember, like, that was, American Gothic. This fall on CBS contains some violent scenes. This, like, that was kind of the hook of the trailer. And so years later, when I would see her and other things, it was like, oh my God, she's the American Gothic girl. But she was in a show called Jack and Jill on the WB that also starred Amanda Pete and Jamie Presley and Simon Rex and Ivan Sergei, the guy from the opposite of sex, if you recall. This was this like, you know,

like relationship drama on the WB. She was in, I'm trying to like pick out the like highlights because she really doesn't. The first time I ever saw her, which like sounds kind of like, a basic answer. But she's incredible. And every time I watch this movie, I'm just like, she's amazing. Perfect. Down with Love. Of course. That was the first time I knew her as a name. Like, that was 2003. By that point, she had been in, like, brief roles in the other sister and what women want. And she had been on, obviously, Jack and Jill and American Gothic. And then right after, maybe not right after, but within a couple years after her being in Down with Love,

which, like, that's a featured part. Where, like, she's Zell Weggar's best friend, co-worker, something, right? Yes, editor. Yes. She's constantly smoking. She is so funny. Her love story is opposite David Hyde Pierce.

Right. At that time, no, I mean, nobody knew Sarah Paulson, so it's like, can you be closeted if nobody knows who you are? Right, this lesbian woman and this gay man and this storyline. Watching that movie now, it's even funnier than it was to begin with. Well, so you know, I watch clips from the Merrill Streep A-FI gala often, right? The Tracy Ellman story, the Nora Ephron story, whatever. I recently found the whole thing uploaded to YouTube.

It's since been taken down. It's bullshit. Um, so I watched the whole thing one day. I probably should have been working and doing other things, but I definitely watched the entirety of the Meryl Streep AFI gala. And it was from 2004. And you know this because Jim Carrey is the quasi-MC who like, um, talks about having just worked with her on Lemini Snicket. So, and she still also- She moved the shit out of him, right? She really, yes, she was so, like, looked at him so adoringly. And he, after he kind of, He does his, like, you know, anticky stuff in the crowd or whatever. But you can tell he also really reveres her and kind of seeks her approval in a way that, like, I found very endearing. She also has the Manchurian candidate haircut. Remember that era of Merrill were like, she showed up to all those award shows for like Angels in America and collected all those awards with the short brown Manchurian candidate haircut. But anyway, so this is 04.

So this is only a year after Down with Love. And in that audience, as Diane Keaton's date is Sarah Paulson. And I watched that and I was like, oh. And I had forgotten that I had heard, I don't even know if it was ever like on Front Street, but I remember hearing through like back channels that like Sarah Paulson before she dated Holland Taylor dated Diane Keaton, which. Am I wrong in remembrance? Remembering that she dated Sorkin and Studio 60 was partly based on their relationship?

No. So Sarah Paulson in Studio 60 played the role that was widely understood to be based on Kristen Chenoweth, who did date Aaron Sorkin. And that relationship in that storyline in the show where it's Sarah Paulson and Matthew Perry is widely recognized to be based on the Kristen Chenoweth, Aaron Sorkin relationship, who has. had dated actually before Kristen Chenoweth appears on as a regular character on the West Wing, because by that time, Sorkin had left that show. But Studio 60, Studio 60 is so full, because it does feature a character who is so very obviously based on himself, like Christine Lottie at one point plays a character who is very, very, very obviously based on Maureen Dowd, who also Sorkin dated and had. had sort of feelings about.

So, like, there was so much, whatever, I can't get into the studio 60 of it. But anyway, yes, that was, I don't, yeah, there was no, there was no former dating relationship between Paulson, but that was the connection there. I also believe in this early period pre-Ryan Murphy, Sarah Paulson was also still kind of regularly doing theater. I'm not sure when, like, she kind of stopped. You know Sarah Paulson was the original She was in the original production of Killer Joe

And she played the Juno Temple role Which is just like, boo! Well, she was also... My brain is short-circuiting. Hold on a second, because she was also in a production of the Glass Menagerie. You know how like every two years or whatever, they'll revive the Glass Menager? I think you mean two months. Yes, exactly.

So it was in 2005. she was in a production of the Glass Menagerie playing Laura Wingfield opposite Jessica Lang, who was Amanda. So like pre-saging their American Horror Story stuff. Josh Lucas played Jim. Is Jim the Gentleman Collar? Is that what that role is? Anyway. And then Christian Slater as Tom, which is kind of wildcasting.

But anyway, yes. was in that. She was in Killer Joe. She was in a production of Crimes of the Heart. And now I want to see... That tracks. Who was in this one with her. Crimes of the Heart, interestingly enough. Um... Uh, blah, blah, blah, blah. Hold on, hold on. Now I'm going to have to look this up on on IBDB. The vastly underrated IBDB, which is just like... It's like old school box office mojo. It just gives you what you're looking.

for. Yes. It's not all fancy and ugly, like IMTB is now. Okay, get this. 2007, a Williamstown Theatre Festival production of Crimes of the Heart, directed by Kathleen Turner, starring, among others, Sarah Paulson, Lily Raib, and then Callie Rocha, who was on in Buffy and also briefly on Grace Anatomy, that moved to the roundabout theater off Broadway. Doesn't say what role she played, whether she played the same role that Diane Keaton played in the film or not. Anyway, so she was... Did Tara Paulson also play a Nell in Steele Magnolia somewhere?

Maybe. Am I just fan casting that? I don't know. That I don't know for sure, but would be amazing. So, obviously, the American Horror Story thing kind of jolts her up, she wins, you know, and the Ryan Murphy thing in general, joltz her up, she wins Emmy Awards, she's nominated for a bunch, she levels up in terms of casting, she's in 12 years a slave, she's in Carol, she rules. in Carol. She's so good. My God. Carol is like the last time that I feel like we've had Sarah Paulson, like, ripped from the clutches of Ryan Murphy. We want her back. Like, Carol is almost on the same level as Martha. I think she's better in Carol, but I think she's great in Martha Marcy May Marlene. But it is the kind of same type of Sarah Paulson performance in that, like, she's better than she is even called to be. and sells the kind of real-life stakes of what's going on and, like, complicates it with a certain level of nuance, too. Like, I think she's really great in this movie,

especially when she's playing the, like, the, like, kind of one foot on either side of the door or whatever the metaphor is, of, like, really trying to help and understand and be supportive and push forward her sister, but also being a normal human being who is, like, incredibly frustrated with what a fucking asshole her sister is.

I go back and forth a lot in this movie as to which one I sympathize with because on some level, I look at Lucy and you feel bad because she doesn't know how to help her sister, and the frustration that she feels, feels natural, that you would be confronted with somebody who is behaving the way Martha is behaving. And you're like, yeah, and she's like totally invaded your life, and that would be

annoying. And yet, I also look at her character. And I'm like, you are handling this so poorly. You have sort of jumped headlong into, there's that very early scene where she picks her up, she brings her home, she's just taken, Martha's just taken a shower. and Martha says she doesn't really, she's not interested in like having dinner or whatever, she just wants to sleep and Lucy says get a good night's sleep tonight and you'll be as good as new tomorrow

and that feels like a distillation of Lucy's character in general which is, I want you to be better. She has it very poorly at the beginning and she's like trying to put Martha in these sun dresses and she just like called you from the middle of fucking nowhere and you're like

well you appear to be fine so I guess it's fine She wants her to be better and feels like she can just sort of, like, say it and be so. But she also, she keeps saying what happened to you, but she doesn't ever really probe it. I don't, you get the sense that she doesn't really want to know the gory details of what happened. And because of that, she gets, she has this expectation that Martha just like, just stop acting crazy and things will be fine. And that really frustrates me. I think Lucy thinks early on in the movie the what happened to you is like a bad breakup, a drug bender, something like that because it seems like that's what the foundation of a lot of their struggles are.

Yeah. And then I think there's a certain point where she realized, no, something bad might have happened to you. But she doesn't want to know it. You're acting like the asshole you have always acted like. Yeah. But you are also acting not normal in a way that. that's putting up a lot of red flags. And I do think, you're right that, like,

Lucy is more appropriate, I think, in the back half of the movie, because it's, like, she's trying to grapple with something happened to her sister and her bad behavior is, like, something that I need to help take care of. But, like, at the same time, Martha is also being the asshole she's always been in saying things like, you're going to be a horrible mother. Well, but Vitt also feels like, self-fulfilling prophecy, confirmation bias stuff happening, where Lucy expects Martha to be that. Like Lucy, as you said, in her head, this was Martha going and like fucking off with a boyfriend and doing drugs and whatever.

And now she's come back. And I think Lucy sort of looks at her as this fuck up who has, you know, fucked it up one time too many. she's got to come back. And from Martha's perspective, and I don't think Martha's necessarily wrong, she sees a lot of condescension in Lucy and a lot of judgment. And obviously, this all goes back to their relationship from before Martha ever left. And I think that combined with the fact that Hugh Dancy's character, Hugh Dancy's so good in this, but he plays such a dick. like he's a dick but like you can kind of understand where he's coming from sometimes where it's like he i mean he is very very quick to call out martha's bad behavior that may have absolutely

nothing to do with the fact that with her experience within a cult right um but like you also have to understand like he's a loving supportive spouse who like has probably had to listen to his spouse sob over her sister and hear all of the bad shit that her sister has done to her. And, you know, he's still an asshole. But, like, I think the, I think the foundation of all those things are there in Hugh Dancy's performance. Well, you also get that scene at the dinner table where she kind of goes off on him for being a capitalist, you know, fuck boy or whatever and, and says that, you know, there are ways to live that are not, that do not revolve around money and possessions, which is one of those things to say that is both true and untrue at the same

time. It's one of those things where it's just like that, you know, feels privileged in a way, but it also feels like a thing that maybe has more truth in it than you want to admit that you could, you know, where she essentially is like you could live, you know, if you want to just fuck off and go to France, you could. You know what I mean? It would not be, you know, the comfortable life that you are used to, but you could. And... Well, this is what I think the movie does really well in terms of Martha's psyche is that that's

that right there is one of those moments where it's like someone is communicating something that might have an actual truth to it, but there's also a darker side of like, well, where is it coming from? Or sometimes it works in the opposite direction. Like that example right there, it's like, yeah, it's true. And it's like, this is this yuppie guy who we maybe in the audience don't like. So it's like we could maybe see how that is very true about him. But we know the reason Martha is saying this is because it's been indoctrined into her brain within a very specific toxic like context.

But it also feels to me like it's another occasion of you almost can't separate past and present with Martha. Is this something that Martha used to maybe think about and what's helped draw her to this cult? Is this a thing where, like, she maybe had a kernel of this idea that the cult managed to, like, sharpen and weaponize within her, this feeling? And you don't know. And I think that not knowing makes it really makes you feel for her all the more, where it's just like, oh, there is no, where you end and this cult begins feels very, very, very. It makes you have, like you're saying, even more compassion for Martha, but I think also the way that Dirkin is positioning it, it also builds this sense of uneasiness that you have through the whole movie of like, I don't know, it's rooting you in her brain and that's why it's like so uneasy. That's why it feels like, you know, the boogeyman could jump out at any minute in this movie and why, like, like you mentioned at the top of the, uh, recording that like jerkin is doing like horror adjacent type of things or like chasing kind of horror vibes like thank god this movie came out before like elevated horror discourse because

kill me now um but yeah like all it it this movie is such an interesting tangle because like you can kind of like it's all feeding into the vibes it's all feeding into the performance and like the character study in a way that it's like, it's always interesting to like go back and rewatch this movie and also to talk about. But like, I think it's also a lot of what makes it not an Oscar movie. Sure. Yes. I want to talk about the rest of the cast. This obviously was, it's interesting. The twinning in many ways of this movie in Winter's Bone is very interesting Because it is the very next... There's two reasons why I think this movie had Oscar buzz, and one of them is Winter's Bone.

Yes. Well, it premieres at the very next Sundance after Winter's Bone. And I remember when Winter's Bone premiered very, very specifically. I obviously was not in that Sundance. I've never been to Sundance. But I remember very specifically, the word coming out of Sundance wasn't only that, like, Winter's Bone, a movie to watch or whatever. It was very specifically, Winter's Bone, Jennifer Lawrence is a star. she will be nominated for the Oscar for this.

And it was like, it was definite. And so John Hawks is in that movie was a much less likely Oscar nominee from Winter's Bone, but he, you know, the people who loved that movie really pushed for that nomination. He gets a nomination. It is a, God, you talk about Sarah Paulson as the classic character actress, even more so. John Hawks, both of them were in Deadwood, by the way. Both of those two were in Deadwood. John Hawks was the face that you saw in a billion things, right?

He's in, you know, I can't even, you know, he's in Miami Vice. He's in identity. He's in, obviously, Deadwood. He's in 8 billion TV shows. He has this very sort of, like, notable, you know, weathered kind of face to him. And he finally makes good, and he gets this Oscar nomination, which feels like the least likely thing to have ever happened to this guy. And it happens. And then the very next year, he is playing this sort of featured supporting role in another movie that announces a brand-new actress to be reckoned with.

And it really felt like- Coming out of Sundance, winning a big prize. Winter's Bone Redo, where it's just like, oh, another young actress comes out of nowhere with kind of an even better story because she's Mary Kate and Ashley Olson's, you know, bonus Jonah's sister. and looking back from our perspective now, it makes sense that Jennifer Lawrence was nominated for Winter's Bone and Elizabeth Olson wasn't for Martha Marcy and Marlene because Winter's Bone is a much more accessible movie than this one is. I could put my mom in front of Winter's Bone. I could not put my mom in front of this movie.

Exactly. But the narrative coming out of Sundance felt exactly the same. Was that your experience of it as well? No, 1,000 percent. Like, beyond the presence of John Hawks, these are two movies that could not be more different, I feel like. I mean, they're both small, but, like, Winter's Bone is even smaller than this movie. They could not be more different, yet they were treated or received by the media, at least, identically. Yeah.

And, like, I don't think that's how Searchlight pushed this movie. like in the mold of Winter's Bone like I think they presented the movie as it was to audiences it's not like you know audiences were deceived but like people like us who maybe were expecting something like that

you know I could understand them being disappointed or thinking that it doesn't measure up to the potential of something like Winter's Bone because they're so different this is an alienating movie this is you know it's an upsetting movie whereas I think Winter's

bone, even though there's a lot of darkness there, it's ultimately, if not a crowd pleaser, you know, like, it ends. It feels like it stays within a format that people know, you know what I mean? And they can be satisfied with where it goes. I think that's right. It's not a downer. I think that's right. It's downer circumstances, but, like, the, you know, the arc, the resolution of that

movie is not. I think Hawks is tremendous, though, in Martha Marcy. John Hawks, there's more we could talk about, well, I guess we can't do the sessions, but, like, John Hawks has this three-year run of Sundance movies, Winter's Bone, Martha Marcy May Marlene, and then The Sessions, which went through 19 title changes. Right. Coming the sessions. It was the surrogate, right?

Initially, when it played at Sundance, I think it was called the surrogate. Yeah. Yeah. Because she was a sex surrogate. and then it became six sessions, and then it became the session, whatever. Conceivably was sixth place for Best Actor that year. I don't think he was that close for Martha Marcy May Marlene. No, he wasn't.

I actually forgot, when you go back and you look at this award season, like, he really did not get... No, he didn't. And it's weird because, like, he was so beloved for Winter's Bone and was like a success story that you would think he would almost have. a better shot than Elizabeth Olson would. But it didn't turn out that. Of the three performances, like, no question, this one, I think,

is the best of them. He's, it's almost this impossible part because he has to do, he has to achieve or present a million different things. He has to be so terrifying. He has to be alluring. You have to understand why people

would be drawn to him, but he also has to be, you know, terrifying. And he is like kind of sexy. He is like, you know. And like, you watch John Hawks in an interview and he's like this nice guy. Yes. And even in something like Winter's Bone, he's not somebody you would think of to play a cult leader. Yet at the same time, he delivers this performance that you're like, well, this is perfect. This is perfect casting. Yeah. He's, you know, maybe the only person who could play this role in this way where it's like he could drive someone to violence he could drive someone to degrade themselves he but like you know he's so captivating

and so terrifying in this movie without like doing anything particularly scary or like dominating right you know yeah um i think he's tremendous i think Hugh Dancy is very good, again, playing a role that you're supposed to kind of bristle against, at least to some degree. He, at this point in his career, was actually kind of, he had been in a bunch of things. And often as a, you know, an incredibly charming, you know, character, he's in a bunch of these movies actually that I haven't seen, so I'm not entirely sure. I imagine his character in Ella Enchanted is Prince Charmott. So he's either the prince that she ends up with or the prince who's bad for her. And I could see either of those two things being true.

He's a dual role. It's like Lapida in us. Here's something you can talk to me about. He's in Basic Instinct 2. I am telling you we need revival screenings of Basic Instinct 2. It is the midnight movie that everyone is sleeping on that movie is fucking crazy. Who is he in that? Do you remember at all?

Well, he's not the male lead. No, that's David Morrissey. I don't think that he even has a sex scene, if I remember correctly. He's like eighth build or something like that. So maybe he's not like super, super, super pertinent. But anyway. Basic Instinct 2 is nuts. And like that movie is absolute garbage.

So like it deserved the like critical. reception that it received, but at the same time, like, go back and read those reviews. It is the most, like, appalling sexism that, like, the movie doesn't deserve because Sharon Stone, I think knows what movies she's in, and she's at least, you know, showing up to work to be in that movie. Right. But, like, it's a bad movie. Um, he's in, uh, he's the one boy who's a member of the Jane Austen book club. He is the evening. Let's not forget anything. Yes, he's the alcoholic brother slash closeted gay character in Evening Closeted, right? Yes. Yes. Because he dies for his love of Patrick Wilson, as we all will. Yes, as we all will at some point in our lives.

He's the third wheel in the mother's son, bad sex triangle in Savage Grace. I know he's the love interest to Ila Fisher in Confessions of a Shopaholic, the PJ Hogan movie, because I definitely saw that movie. And then also in 2009, he's in that movie Adam, which feels like the first time that somebody is sort of crafting an indie movie around him that felt like it had at least small-scale hopes for. That was another Fox Searchlight movie That had small-scale hopes for an awards push for him Well, because of what it is, he's I believe he's playing an autistic character I think his character has Asperger's.

I think specifically Asperger, yeah, yeah, yeah. With, like, a romantic relationship with Rose Byrne. Yes. You know, it's the movie that you think it is. What's interesting about his career is, In 2011, he's in Martha Marcy May Marlene and Our Idiot Brother. He doesn't show up again in a feature film in any major way until late night in 2019, because he takes a total complete detour into television, where he's on the Big C.

He is obviously one of the lead. He plays Will Graham and Hannibal. He's awesome on that show. So good. Matt's Mickelson's the lead attraction and so many of the side characters. And, like, Jillian Anderson is so incredible in Hannibal. But, like, Hugh Dancy. Hannibal has no business being as good as it is.

100%. And it fully is. It was so good. I loved it so much. He was in that really disappointing Hulu series, The Path, also about a cult, with Aaron Paul, that I remember having to cover in my capacity at Decider. He was on Homeland for a while. He was on the Good Fight for a little bit. He kind of just sort of mostly did TV. He also did theater because he was in two plays that I saw him in that were really, really good.

The one off-Broadway production called The Pride, which was a gay story with him and Ben Washaw, and also Andrea Reisborough was in it. I loved that play. And then he's the male lead. He's the counterpart to Nina Arianda in. Venus and Fur, which, like, she's the show there. She wins the Tony, but, like, he either took over for whoever played that role off Broadway, or it was the other way around, and I can't remember. He was the one I saw, but give me one second, and I'll figure this out. Yeah, I forgot.

Because it wasn't it someone else who was famous? It was. It was West Bentley off Broadway, and then it was Hugh Dancy on Broadway. way. And I thought Hugh Dancy was great. Obviously, like, again, Nina Arianda's the reason she's the show there. But anyway, she's the show. I thought he was, I think he's great in Martha Marcy. This supporting cast, though, you made a point of you wanted to really get into it because it really goes deep. We've already talked about it as like the, the ecosystem of these like directors and producers who all work together. But like, it has Brady Corp.

in there. Christopher Abbott. Brady Corbe, the same year as Melancholia, by the way. That's true. It's so interesting to watch it and see, like, the two of them on screen together, but also their babies in this. Yeah. I mean, Brady Corbe had already been a baby in 13, but... But Christopher Abbott, this was the year before Girls.

I believe Girls is 2012, right? Probably. I think that's right. That sounds, you know, spiritually right. But in terms of, like, who has maybe the higher profile as an actor now, it's probably Christopher Abbott because he still acts. Yeah. What?

Brady Corbe was in Force Major, right? I feel like that's the last time I've seen a performance of his. Well, was Force Major before or after when he shows up briefly in while we're young? I mean, maybe that's roughly the same time. It might be around the same time. But anyway, yeah, now he's a filmmaker, obviously, directed Vox Lux, a future. This had Oscar Buzz selection at some point, Vox Lux. A guarantee.

Yeah. Christopher Abbott is an interesting actor. I brace myself for if there are ever stories, because it just seems feasible. James White, however, like, James White is, like, James White is, like bummer town, but if you can ever like stomach it, he's really great. I hated him in Gerard Carmichael's

movie, though I understand why other people loved him in that. I did not like that movie, but I thought he was by far the best part of it. That for me, yeah, I didn't like the movie either, unfortunately. Like, I appreciated what it was going for. But his performance really

graded on me in a way that, like, I'm like, Christopher Abbott is really from like the ankles up, usually. with a performance, and that felt very put on to me. Interesting. No, I thought he was tremendous on that. Like you mentioned, it's a lot of these New York theater actors. Like, Louisa Krause, who is a gay icon just for her brief performance in young adult.

Wait, who is she in young adult? She's the hotel check-in lady. Yes. Oh, shit. I totally forgot about that. I mean, like, she's mostly done theater, including the flick. I was going to say, that's what I know her the best from is the Annie Baker play the flick. She's really, really good in that. She was also on a season of The Girlfriend Experience, not the one with Riley Keo, but I believe... The first one?

No, Riley Keio was the first one. Had there been more? Yeah, there were like three of them. The one that I reviewed was... Oh, shit. Now I'm going to forget who. It's Carmen the Jogo. It was one of the second season was like two stories that I don't think ever really

connected. It was Carmen Ojogo and oh, I love her. What's her name? Oh, my God. Anyway, I'm going to totally forget it. Give me a second. Oh, no, it was Season three was Carmen Ojogo. Season two was Louisa Krause and then Anna Friel is also in that season. But I guess it was behind the camera that I interviewed Amy Simons. Amy Simets did was showrunner, I believe, for the second season, also in the first.

Amy Simons was a really good interview for that. That was a show that I wouldn't have watched it if I wasn't covering it professionally. I ended up really liking it. And then when I didn't have to cover it anymore, I kind of didn't go back for the third season, even though, oh, no, I did because I remember watching the Karminajogo stuff. Anyway, whatever, whatever. better good show but within this TV landscape of like so many things probably wouldn't have been something I would have sought out anyway louisa krause very briefly in martha marcy but very good and then maria dizzia around this no martha marcy is the year after she gets that surprise tony nomination for the sarah rule play in the next room the vibrator play which i saw which was Laura Benanti and Michael Cerveris, Michael Serveris, who gets naked in that play,

or got naked in that play. Really? Oh, yeah. I don't think I ever heard that. I was in, like, the second row, and it was like right in front of me. Anyway. Oh, there you go.

He plays, it's the same, remember that Maggie Gyllenhaal movie about, like, the invention of the viroreder. Hysteria starring Hugh Dancy. Oh, interesting. Yes. It's essentially the same story. Michael Cerveris plays the

doctor who essentially invents the vibrator as a therapeutic tool for women who are being diagnosed with things like hysteria. Maria Dizia plays the main patient who gets, who is benefited by this therapy, essentially. And she has at least, at least one tremendous scene where she just sort of, you know, like experiences the benefits of it. She's really, really phenomenally good. It was a very, very well-earned Tony nomination for her. And she wasn't really a name at that point. She kind of came out of nowhere. So after that, anytime she was in anything, I was like Leonardo DiCaprio pointing to the screen, you know, there's Marie Dizia. Yeah, tremendous, tremendous cast. We should talk about Elizabeth Olson at long last.

At long last, Elizabeth Olson. a fucking performance like she didn't have time to really prepare for it which like I almost think helps the performance because it is very like instinctual

you can like see her as a performer kind of mining the confusion and feeling in a way that like isn't mannered in a way that I feel like it very easily could have become that and kind of sank the movie.

Yeah. And, like, I'm not, I'm, I feel like, because Martha is a thorny character, Martha, aside from what has happened to her, is an asshole. Yeah. I feel like it's more effective to see a performer we haven't seen before than, like, say, even like, a Jennifer Lawrence who delivered a, Winter's Bone beforehand. If we have a preconceived notion of this woman before we meet her, it, like, kills half of the mystery of the movie. So it's like, it's, watching this performance is a real, like, stars aligning type of thing that, like, of course it's the type of breakthrough that you'd be so excited about. Well, it's also, I mean,

you mentioned the Jennifer Lawrence of it, which, like, Winter's Bone was unquestionably the breakthrough, and it was the first time almost anybody had seen her. But she had been, in other things. And she was in... Including the Burning Plain where she plays young Charlize Varen and won the young actor prize at Venice. So it's like people knew who

her name was familiar. But this is a legitimate debut performance. She had a she literally is credited as Girl in Carr in the 1990 TV movie How the West was fun, which was her sister's Mary Kate and Ashley. It was

an Olson Twins movie, right? So she's like Literally, it's her only credit before Martha Marcy May and Marlene. Now, that and Silent House premiere. So it's hard to tell how do you credit which is the debut performance. I don't know which of them she filmed first. Obviously, in terms of what gets released in the United States, like in a proper release, Martha Marcy May and Marlene comes out first. So that's the one that is.

And obviously, it's the one I would rather. She's great in Silent House. We talked about it on screen drafts when we did the. F. Cinema scores. I did not like that movie. You guys all seem to like it a little bit better than I did. I'm not a fit. I mean, like, especially the like final sequence of that movie, I think, derails it a little bit. But she's great in it. And it's kind of, it's an amazing kind of won two punch to have it two things at the same Sundance that she's, you know, obviously she, did she win a prize at Sundance or was that just Durkan? Just Durkan won for, because let me. you look up who actually won the acting prize that year? Keep talking, though, while I do that.

Yeah, so the Elizabeth Olson career from Martha Marcy May Marlene, because there was obviously Oscar buzz around this performance, and we'll get to that, I think she was on a lot of people's radar for, like, you know, it's going to happen for her at some point. And then the projects following, this up were not really on target. She was in the Josh Radner movie Liberal Arts that he was the one everybody hated from how I met your mother. So nobody was ready to receive that. It got bad reviews. I never saw it. She's in Kill Your Darling's, which is an interesting movie that did not catch on. And she is, you know, a support. performance in that, obviously, to Radcliffe and Dane Dahan and all that.

She's in the terrible... Acting winner, this Sundance was Felicity Jones for, like, Crazy, which also got the grand prize. Right, which also, speaking of Jennifer Lawrence, Jennifer Lawrence is the third wheel in that movie, if I'm not... Like crazy. Yeah. Poor, sad Anton Yelchin thoughts now creep into my brain.

Even though I didn't really like Crazy very much, but I... it's hard not to have some affection for Anton Yeltsin movies especially where he's like the lead of the movie Exactly Elizabeth Olson is in the terrible old boy remake

That Spike Lee directed That was just Ill-considered let's say And then the year after that She makes her first appearance In the Marvel universe In a post-credit scene In Captain America the Winter Soldier

where she's Wanda Maximoff. Now, obviously, I don't want to get into it too much because you hate the Marvel movies, and I don't. I don't hate them. Christopher. I don't hate them. There's movies in the MCU that I enjoy. I am just exhausted.

Okay, fine. Just exhausted. I love her as Wanda. I think she's one of my favorite characters in those movies. She's sort of, she went from being, like, I remember one time at my old job I said at one point where somebody was like

who are your favorite MCU characters and I was like somebody and Wanda and they all looked at me like I had three heads and they're like Wanda because at that point

she was I think it was she had only been in like Age of Ultron and Civil War it hadn't like reached the like Infinity War and game where she has this

great romance with vision it's not a controversial opinion everyone loves her now I was right listen I am not one to hesitate to take credit I, history has proven me correct on that front. No, she's in Age of Ultron.

I can't, I emotionally support you in this, but I can't, I haven't watched Wanda Vision, haven't seen Dr. That's fine. The thing about what I connected to her, though, was like in the middle of something like Age of Ultron, which is a movie that, like, was one of the early, like, Marvel's kind of losing it that I'd stick up for. I love Age of Ultron. I think it's way, way better than people give it credit for. And she has this, like, really small, not really small, but, like, relatively small, but crucial arc in it where she sort of makes the active decision to be a superhero, essentially, and has a couple really good scenes with actually Jeremy Renner, who I know, speaking of, like, people nobody want to get on board with, but I think the two of them and their weird little connection that is so.

So, like, backburner, back burner, back burner, back burner, and that series, I think is really, really good. And part of the reason why multiverse of madness irked me, I don't necessarily, like, whatever, she's the bad guy in that movie, that's fine. That's the way some character arcs go. I don't need her to survive just because I love her. But I walked out of that movie and being like, and I understand the limitations of like you can't get cast members, you know, for your movie, whatever. This is the problem with a series with 50 some odd characters is you can't get them all, even though what you're essentially having, have built is superhero General Hospital. And General Hospital has 20 main cast characters with like 20 more recurring characters, right? I mean, this is your connection to the MCU, is that it is a soap opera.

And I do feel like that's how you engage with it. And I love that about it. And a lot of people like those movies in spite of it. And a lot of people find the interconnectedness of it a problem, whereas I'm like, no, that's where it's most like soap opera. And that's why I love it. And so part of my problem with Multiverse of Madness is I was like, guys, like, Wanda has friends. Like, Wanda

was part of the Avengers for a while. Wanda has, like, a, like, closeness with Hawkeye and with certain other people. I'm like, where were all these people while she's, like, spiraling into madness and becoming, like, the biggest villain in the world, and it's only

fucking... Fucking fake friends. Doctor Strange who, like, barely knew her. The fucking Avengers. They're fucking fake friends. Their friendship is for shit. Exactly. So, and... Fuck the Avengers. They're bad friends. And obviously, that's not my problem with Sam Ramey. I think Sam Ramey directs that movie incredibly well.

I also don't even think it's necessarily my problem with the movie because I understand that it's an unrealistic thing that within this movie, that is a Dr. Strange movie, that you have to then pull in Jeremy Renner and Anthony Mackie and Don Chil. You know what I mean? All these other people. All those characters are in that movie? No, that's what I mean. What I'm saying is my own little heart.

being like, where were Wanda's fellow Avengers to help her out in this? Well, they weren't in it because you can't cast all those other people in that movie. I understand that. I'm not a crazy person. But it is ultimately sad for me walking out of that movie and being like, oh, ultimately Wanda wasn't the priority that I wanted her to be. And that's why I think they turned her into sad lady. And what I loved about Wanda Vision was like, oh, she is the priority for this show. And I think that's maybe the misstep that the larger Marvel universe took with that, which was they made her so popular by Wanda Vision being such a popular and well-done show that a lot of people really bristled.

It's a problem for that movie. That all of a sudden you have this movie where your antagonist is so much more popular than your protagonist in a lot of circles that, like, a lot of people are just going to be upset out of that. Whatever. That's my little Marvel corner, and I'm glad that thank you for indulging me. I mean, the upside of your love for Wanda is that, like... She's a huge star now.

She is, and her TV show is the only Marvel TV show that anyone gives a shit about. Like, no one talks about those other shows. Well... I mean, maybe Moon Night a little bit, but like... People are going to follow Oscar Isaac. But any... But your point is not... It definitely is by far the most mainstream appealing of...

It's the one that broke out of... the sort of you can't call Marvel a niche, but you know what I mean, that like people who like weren't watching other Marvel series. People that watched that show and got enthusiastic about the show, there was no, at least from the outside,

it didn't seem like there was a sense of obligation in watching it. Whereas all the other shows, including Loki, it seemed like people were watching it because they felt obligated to. I think that's a perception that you probably have

as somebody who feels that way about those things. I think, I think there are, you know, plenty of people who watch those movies because those shows because they like them. But, like, I get what you're saying to a degree. Regardless, sort of filtering out the Marvel movies. And, like, she has in her last 10 years mostly made Marvel movies in the last, say, like, eight years. Since Winter Soldier in 2014, the balance of Marvel movies versus non-Varvel movies is really lopsided. And I would say there's two other performances that I really want to talk about in terms of, I think she's an incredible performer.

The second one is Ingrid Goes West, which is a movie that I have problems with, but she, I think, is the best thing about the movie. She's so good in that movie. She's so good. She's so funny. My favorite thing about Ingrid Goes West is I think it's smarter about what social media is and does that it gets credit. it for. And I think part of the reason why a lot of people bristled against it is that it was too real. It was a little too real. And her character embodies that. Yes, I agree. Yes, it is. Yet, though, I think her performance, like, she's ostensibly the villain of the movie. She's playing this influencer who is like, you know, taking photos of her avocado toast before now we've decided. it's not cool anymore, but, like, is ahead of the curve. Right, right.

Right. And it's all obviously a front. It's all obviously a straw house. But, like, again, like, I was saying Martha could be somebody who the performance ends up being mannered. Like, she could play this character in Ingrid Goes West, like, full villain. She could play it, like, and she doesn't. She plays that character as. what she is, which is the living embodiment of FOMO slash, like, I'll never be this person. You know, the villainy of her isn't in her actions. It's what she represents to Ingrid, which is this unattainable ideal that is completely unconcerned with her, you know what I mean? That is ultimately, like, does not care about her. And the sort of the violence inherent.

in that. Yeah. Yeah. I should go and rewatch that movie. What's the other performance? Better shot. Just general, like, I hate using the word content, but just content provider. Oh, is she a good Instagrammer?

Was she on Hot Ones and was incredible? Oh, she was on Hot Ones and was incredible. She also, her VF lie detector test. Like, she is, yes, you're right. I think she is in the upper echel. of people who can provide great, like, memorable, psychotic videos of that type. Totally. I also should mention even though I didn't watch the show, and I don't believe you did

either, probably because it was on Facebook Watch, but she was on that show, sorry for your loss. Everybody I talked to who saw that was like, she's incredible. Kelly Marie Tran was also on that show and Jovan Adepo. But, yeah, it was not very widely watched, but pretty much every single person who watched it was like, she's phenomenal. So I'm interested to see where this goes. She's in an upcoming HBO series, the other Candy Montgomery show that isn't the Jessica Beale candy called Love and Death. That is, I believe, a David E. Kelly production.

that is coming later this year, and what movies does she actually have lined up? Now that she's, I don't think we've seen the last of her, honestly, in the MCU. I think people who are like, finally, she's free of it, are a little... Why, wait, did she die? Yeah, I mean, more or less. Her character is vanquished at the end of Multiverse of Madness, and there is a way to read that as being sort of the end of a thing, but, like, there are any number of ways that she can come back.

But yeah, she doesn't have any movies lined up for the future yet. But I think I think we can all agree that we are excited to see what is next for her. I think she's incredibly talented. I think she's incredibly talented. And ultimately, I think she kind of had no chance in this best actress race. I think at some point, yes. I think early on in the year, I think she was on everybody. long list of possibilities because of the Sundance thing, because of the winter's bone

memories that everybody had. And she does get notices, right? She's a nominee at critics' choice. She's a nominee among the Chicago film critics. She gets their most promising performer. She has a, she gets a Gotham Award nomination. She gets obviously an independent Spirit Award nomination. Who does she lose that to? Hold on one second. Michelle Williams, the Oscar nominee. Right, that was the thing, is all of the Independent Spirit Award winners that year, Jean de Jardin for the artist,

Michelle Williams for My Week with Marilyn, Christopher Plummer for beginners, and then, even though she wasn't Oscar nominated, Shalene Woodley for the Descendants, who was essentially sixth place in that Oscar race. Martha Marcy also lost Best First Feature at the Indy Spirits to March and Call, which was like the indie success Oscar nomination that year.

Yeah, which Martha Marcy May Marlene is a much better movie than, I mean, I don't like Margin' call, but I think it's... 100%. Like, and throughout the season, too, like a lot of best, like critics' best first feature prizes, we're going to Margin Call for this and like, I understand, but like, and like, we're not anti-JC. Shandor on this podcast. We love a most violent year, but I don't remember Jack's shit about Margin Call. was the era of the Independent Spirit Awards, and I know you and I are a little bit on different wavelengths with the Indies Spirits, but I, this was an era where you wish you could go through the nominees with a comb and comb out all of the major Oscar contenders there, because I do still feel like, I think they've gotten back to a place where they are nominating

by and large, interesting and out of the way performances and films. They did a good job last year. And it's gotten a little bit away from this era where so many of the nominees and most of the winners are all the big Oscar contenders. But you go through this indie spirit list in 2011 and you can pick out some really interesting ones. Take out the artists, take out beginners, take out the descendants. Those are all the ones that got Oscar nominations. And you still get... Take out my week with Maryland. Oh, for sure. It's not an independent movie. No, come on.

Take Out Midnight in Paris. I love that they were the only ones who got Corey Stoll recognition from Midnight in Paris. But like, take out Midnight in Paris. Like Woody Allen movies are not indie movies in any, you know, real context in any way that matters. I like that, like, Woody Harrelson's nominated for Rampart here. There's some nominations for Take Shelter, even if that's not like my favorite. favorite movie, but, like, I like that Drive, even though Drive is even pushing it in terms of, like, what's major and what's not,

but, like, nobody else was recognizing Drive, so I'm glad that they did. This was the year of the, this was kind of the Brit Marling breakthrough, again, speaking of topics where, like, you and I disagree. The nominations... I haven't seen the movies. I don't know. This was... I just love teasing that you love her so much. I do. This was the year of Another Earth.

which is not my favorite of the Brit Marling Uvra, but the next year was Sound of My Voice, which was the one that I really really fell for. Both of them debuted at this Sundance, though. Yes, that's right. Anyway, and then Elizabeth Olson gets nominated at the Critics Choice Awards, which, like, for as much as I

continue to shit on the Critics Choice Awards and will continue to do so without apology, this was a year where the Critics' Choice Awards, Best Actress lineup was so much better than the Oscar lineup. It was even considering the fact that they both nominated Merrill for the Iron Lady. And they couldn't get away from that. But, like, Critics Choice nominates Merrill, Michelle Williams for My Week with Marilyn and Viola Davis, who also got Oscar nominations. But the other ones that they added into the mix, Elizabeth Olson for Martha Marcy,

Tilda Swinton for we need to talk about Kevin and Charlize Theron for a young adult Which like Two of those three should have made the Oscar lineup Three of those three actually Because you take out either Merrill or Michelle Williams And you've got plenty of room for I mean I ultimately think Rooney Morrow would be there

If they had seen A Girl with a Dragon tattoo at that point Because it arrived late I'm looking through to see if it got any It did get an editing nomination, but like the type of thing that like the maybe small percentage of the BFCA that saw it probably all nominated that movie for editing. Yeah. Whereas if it had been more widely seen, I bet that she would be there. I think the same for SAG.

Yeah. That's such a huge role. I do think that in terms of like breakthrough performer lead actress, like Rooney Mara stole probably any. heat that Elizabeth Olson might have had in that regard. I think that's probably true. I think that's probably true. And it was such a huge movie. That like movie about, uh, rapists, perverts and Nazis made a hundred million dollars. But it did not, it still was seen as a failure, though. Right. Which is, uh, bizarre. I mean, because it's huge and expensive. Like they wouldn't let her do. Did you see, was it in? Remember how I talked about how I was browsing through the Sony emails the

other day for no reason. Was it within the Sony emails that came out that like, or was it in a separate news story more recently? I can't remember where I read it. This thing where Rooney Mara, like, emailed, it must have been, because it was an email to Amy Pascal, where she was like, so any word on doing another girl with a dragon tattoo movie? I would certainly love to do it.

She basically is essentially like, so Amy, how are you doing? I'd love to do another girl with a dragon tattoo movie. Don't know if you want to. My phone lines open. If you ever were interested, I definitely want to do it. And I definitely want to do it. And goodbye. And never happens. And I feel I felt bad. Like, you know. I felt bad for her too. She kept like a bunch of piercings that she got for that movie. She doesn't seem like the kind of person who like lays herself out on the line for anything. If you've ever seen her speak in any context, it feels like if she was going to take the, you know, initiative. to proactively be like, hey, I'm interested in doing this. She must have really, really, really wanted it. Or, I mean, she just really, really wanted an answer because you're not going to be like, hey, give me an answer. You're going to be like, hey, I really want to do this.

And if you don't get an answer, then. Yeah. I also, before we get off of the Critics' Choice Awards, because I said something nice about them, so now I have to say something mean about them. They're 2011 best young actor-actress category. Bad. They listen.

So these are the nominees who I think are almost all really, really worthy. Whatever. I'm not going to say anything mean about Asa Butterfield for Hugo, because I tend to think he's a good actor and whatever. El Fanning for Super 8, very good. Ezra Miller, for we need to talk about Kevin. Everything else, as we said earlier, everything else you want to say about Ezra Miller,

was phenomenal, and that Sir Sharonin for Hanna, a tremendous performance in a tremendous movie, Shane Lee and Woodley for the Descendants, at the very least a good performance, and then they all get beat by the little kid from extremely loud and incredibly close. Get rid of this category. Get rid of the critics' choice. Just get out of here. Get out of here, critics' choice. Dicks. What else did we want to talk about before? we move on, because we're kind of a... I think this best actress lineup is kind of uncrackable

in terms of like sixth place was probably... I have a hard time saying that sixth place was Tilda. I think it was. Who else? Who else would it have been? I mean, I guess and Tilda gets Sag nominated, right?

And Golden Globe. I mean, Oscar was never going to go for that movie. Is the thing? Like, that movie is what it is. It's a Lynn Ramsey movie movie. I could see it being a movie that gets one Oscar nomination and it's for the performance. You know what I mean? Like she gets in on reputation. She's a former winner. Um, there was buzz behind it. There's a lot of, uh, movies that we could talk about just this best actress race. Like we've talked about it for melancholia. I mean, this is, is the what about, no, this is the what about pariah year because pariah is one of these movies. Yep. Marguerette. Young adult. We still haven't done young adult. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. What's my. Did we do this when we talked about Marguerette? Maybe what my top five was. I don't know.

We don't necessarily have to go into it every time. But anyway, it doesn't matter. My top two are Anna Pac-Win and Charlie's there, and they're the best performances of that decade. I mean, yeah, they're both really fantastic in that. I would have nominated Elizabeth Olson. I think, for as you, you're probably not wrong that that year would have been uncrackable. that field was probably uncrackable.

I think it's one of my least favorite best actress lineups of my lifetime. I don't like this Oscar year, period. Oh, I think it's a terrible Oscar year. I mean, this is partly why I have such, like, goodwill towards Rooney Maras. Like, on top of liking that performance, like, it's one of the best in the category. Like, I felt bad for Glenn Close this year, which, like, Albert Knobbs is a bad movie. and I don't like that performance, but, like, she shows up everywhere, but it was so clear that the vibe was, like, we're going to nominate you, but you are not getting this.

Yeah. Because the clear, like, the, the heat in that race came down to kind of a three-way race between Meryl Street, Bila Davis, and Michelle Williams, with, like, Michelle Williams clearly bringing up the rear there, but, like, it was always conceivable she could win for it. Yeah. And, like, Glenn Close was, like, solid fourth place, was never not going to get nominated. That Glenn Close nomination is one of those things where it's, like, not in a million years would I have ever nominated this, but I appreciate the hustle so much that I'm kind of glad that she made it happen, just because it's like, you know, sometimes we have to make our own luck in this life. And Glenn Close for Albert Knobbs definitely embodied that, I thought.

I do think we could have maybe saved ourselves a little bit of heartache and headache. if they had given it to her this year. But that I don't, that would have been such a crazy thing. For a movie that's so bad for a performance that on top of being problematic is like... Not good. Not good. Not good. Here's my five that year.

Charlie Staron and Anna Pacquine, yes. Elizabeth Olson, yes. I would have nominated Tilda for, we need to talk about Kevin. And then my winner that year, Juliet Benosh for Certified Copy, one of my favorite performances. She's also in my five. I have Kiki Dunst is in my five, and then maybe Tilda rounds it out. It's so, so, so good. So you don't nominate Elizabeth Olson then.

She's on the outside looking at it. I probably don't, but like, she's fighting with Tilda. Yeah, yeah. And none for Meryl Streep, the worst, one of the worst acting wins. It's so sad. Obviously, Meryl is my apex. She's my number one always. But it's a bummer that this is her third Oscar.

It really, really is. Albert Knobbs and Glenn Close in this category it's like you can say that that's a terrible movie you can say it's not a good performance but like Merrill is worse in a worse movie like yeah that movie's so bad it's really bad it is

I mean you're not wrong I can't believe the amount of people I mean like this is what goes to show you the like Weinstein Awards machine like of course like the thing that got Merrill her third Oscar was Weinstein unfortunately But it's like, she won the New York Critics Award for that fucking horrible performance. It's like everybody fell for it.

Like, not everybody. There was significant pushback pretty much throughout that year for that movie and that performance. I mean, but still, people kept falling for it. But here's the thing about that year is any of the wins, even the win that I wanted to happen, which is Viola Davis for the help, would have been, in retrospect, a stain on the Oscars and the career of the person who won it. I think the fact that Viola Davis is Oscar is for fences and not

the help is so much better. And yet, if her Oscar is going to be for fences, I still say it should have been for a lead for fences. I agree. I agree. But like... I agree. Yeah. And like, it made a situation where it was like, there is a zero percent chance that Viola Davis

loses. Yeah. Which, like, good for her. Yeah. And Viola Davis can still win another one, I believe. Yeah. Obviously, Martha Marcy and Marlene was not going to be a priority for Fox Searchlight in 2011. They had part of the reason why it got Oscar, the other reason of the two. Two Best Picture Contenders that year.

Yeah. Yeah. The Tree of Life. It's weird that this is a Searchlight movie, but like the fact that it was, especially in this era of Searchlight, gave it Oscar Buzz because of what their trajectory was. It's an interesting searchlight lineup, though. It's the Tree of Life and the Descendants both get Best Picture nominations. Marguerette's a whole story unto itself.

Shame is probably Fassbender for Shame and Tilda for we need to talk about Kevin are both in the same boat for me, which is probably sixth place, but how close did they actually get? Yeah. I think probably, like, Fesbender's so good in shame, but I get why he was not nominated. They also bought that very late because they bought it out of the fall festival season. I don't think it was originally their movie. And, like, they were pushing Clooney really hard for the descendants. Yes, they were.

Yeah, Clooney. Clooney was, if not favored to win, was at least in the winner conversation pretty much throughout that year. That was kind of a three-horse race between him and Dujardin and Pitt up until the end. I think even going into Oscar night there was people being like who's going to win, you know, it could be a toss-up. Because there was a lot of doubt that they would give

an Oscar to essentially somebody outside of the American movie-making system. Speaking of falling for it, the artist. Yeah, yeah. Listen, how dare you? The American acting career

of Jean-Dugardin has been a house of fire in the decade since he won that Oscar. He is funny and Wolf of Wall Street, I will say. And I don't think he's bad in the movie. No, he's not bad in the movie. I begrudge his win less than just that movie being like so frontrunner status in general. Yeah.

But I hate this Oscar year. I don't like it. It's a bad Oscar year. We've talked about it before. We'll probably talk about it again. All right. Anything else we want to bring up before we do? Oh, this was one actually thing.

I want it. And I'll make this very quick because we'll make this very quick because we'll. we are kind of long in the tooth in this episode. Sean Durkin, around the time of, I guess, this movie, maybe not, did a sight and sound list of his top 10 movies of all time. And I looked at the list, and it's an interesting list, and I wanted to bring it up with you because it has, I'm reading through it kind of in order,

and I'm like, oh, God, this is going to make Chris hate Sean Durkan, because there's one movie in here that you've talked about being like, I think this is a dumb movie. I hate the people are nostalgic for this movie. And then there's another movie, as I kept going down the list, I'm like, oh, no, wait, Chris is going to love him. So I wanted to see if we could just, like, get you to, like, play a little quick, little guessing game, and we'll, like, I'll give you heavy hints, so it won't take very long.

But, so this is Sean Durkins' top ten movies of all time for sight and sound. The one that I think you'll hate is a 80s movie that a lot of people are very nostalgic for, and yet a loud contingent of people are like, I never liked that movie, and like, here's why. I was about to say back to the future, because I do not get back to the future. No, it's not that. It's a kids movie. Kids movie.

Like a bunch of kids. Like the Goonies? Exactly the Goonies. It is exactly the Goonies. I don't hate the Goonies. I hate the Goonies culture. There is no Goonies culture. There is totally Goonies culture.

There was Goonies culture. Goonies culture does not exist anymore. Walk into a target. There is Goonies culture. The only culture I ever hear about Goonies is adult human beings my age or younger being like, I never liked the Goonies. I don't know anybody who likes that movie. All the straight people who think that the Goonies.

think that the Goonies is like one of three movies in the world are annoying. But like when I watch the Goonies, I have a good time. I like the Goonies. So it's like, I like the Goonies. I have no problem with that movie. People are annoying about that movie. All right. The one that I think you're going to love him for is like one of your like, I don't know.

I don't know necessarily what your top three movies of all time are, but it's probably close to there. I'm going to guess it's not the hours. No. Is it like, who's afraid of Virginia Woolf? No. It is, I will say, so looking at his top 10, the Goonies aside, and maybe one other movie aside, it's a lot of, this movie does, is the basic answer. This movie is from the 21st century, but almost everything else is like 60s and 70s, big autores with like a lot of psychological elements or like, um, I don't know, like, there's a lot of, again, like, psychological thrillers or just very, like, you can, you can feel that Sean Durkin aesthetic at play in a lot of these movies.

This one is from a European filmmaker with a European actress who you love more than almost... Isabel Perre? Yeah. The piano teacher. Yeah, it's the piano teacher. Yes. I fucking love that movie. It's not even my favorite Hanukkah, but it tracks that Sean Dorkin likes that movie.

So with the piano teacher as a rough guide stylistically, I'm going to read you the director. So he's got one Altman movie from the 70s. McCabe and Mrs. Miller. No. Colder. Nashville. No, more esoteric than that. Oh.

It's from the late 70s. um what else why am i blanking so right before pop-eye yeah i think so i think that's right more esoteric than macape i mean like macape is mainstream altman at this point but um it's again a sort of like psychological drama uh big on actresses oh three women three women three women is kind of secretly my favorite all this is why this is why this is why I wanted to do this. Okay, there's one Hitchcock movie that is not an obvious

choice for like a top ten list, but it's a very well-known Hitchcock movie. Shadow of it out. No, it's like if you like grabbed a person on the street and were like named two Hitchcock movies, it would be the second one. Psycho and Vertigo.

No. The birds. The birds. There's a Bertolucci movie on the list from the 70s. that feels very in line with three women and piano teacher maybe. Again, psychological. The conformist. The conformist. Yes.

Great movie. All right. There's a... The Spielberg movie on this list does not fit in stylistically with everything else, but it's a 70s Spielberg movie that rules. Jaws. Yeah. All right.

You're not going to get this next one from, the director, but it's a Al Pacino movie from the 70s. Serpico. No. More... Dog Day Afternoon. No. Grimier. Panic in Needle Park. Panic in Needle Park.

Yes. Go off, Sean. Yeah, this is what I'm kind of saying. There's an Ingmar Bergman movie that fits very well, again, with the other movies on this list. Cries and Whispers. Nope. Persona. Persona. Yes.

then the piano teacher. A fairly obvious Roman Polansky movie, but of the two very obvious Polansky movies, it's the one that feels, it's the more psychological of the two of them. Repulsion. Oh, no, I was, I didn't even think about that one, but no, more Rosemary's Baby.

Rosemary's Baby, yes. I was thinking Chinatown and Rosemary's Baby, and Rosemary's Baby is the more psychological the two of them. All right, final one, a fairly, a very mainstream Stanley Kubrick movie. shining yes the shining it's an interesting top 10 list i feel like yeah it makes me like him yeah i don't know i really i think he's a real uh for somebody who's only made two movies he's a real interesting filmmaker we both loved the nest a lot and i i don't know i'm very i'll

eventually do the nest because we like it a lot we love kerry coon and jude law in it a lot and we'll have to talk about the 20-20 of it all, the pandemic of it all. Haven't we done a Pandy movie already, though? Maybe it's that we have reached, we'll have to go back. At this point, my brain is fried podcast-wise. We'll maybe have to go back because I think we're at the point where we- We did one. Listeners are screaming out of it.

We don't have it. It's because I'm looking at the spreadsheet and we don't even have it marked in the column of ones we've done from that year yet on the master list. It's Wild Mountain Time. Ah, yes, the Wild Mountain Thime. Yes. That was... That was a good episode. That was a great episode. I love talking about that movie.

I loved that. That was super fun. Not the movie. Insane-ass movie. All right. Before we get into the IMDB game, I just want to give a small mention to the Ugly as Hell QR Code posters that start Oh, yeah. Talk to me about this. I don't know what you're talking about. Really trying to, like, reach out to a young audience. Like, this was the moment when QR codes, like, kind of, they were beginning to happen because people were starting to have smartphones and such. But, like, they did a full-ass QR code on a white background, and that's the poster. And it's like Martha's face. They had one of John Hawks. And then it's like, they kind of morphed it into the same version of that, but it's an M instead of a QR code. And now, like, the accepted Martha Marcy poster is the one that's, like, two merging faces, like, whatever.

I never saw this version of the poster until I've just now looked at. Oh, really? No, never. This was the poster that I, like, saw it in theaters with. That is obnoxious. It's so ugly. It is the original COVID restaurant menu. It is so stupid.

But, like, QR codes in general, bad. Yes. Bad, bad, bad, bad. Like, I'm annoyed by them at restaurants when they're still there. They feel less accessible. They feel like they're forcing me to be on my phone when it's like, if I just want to go out, have a nice dinner. I always think about my... Maybe I don't want to be on my fucking phone.

I always think about my parents. My dad still cling into his flip phone, like, would just be... Listen, welcome to my world, friend. Like, I ask those questions constantly. one of these days it's just going to disintegrate one of these days it's just going to disintegrate in his hand and then he's going to have to upgrade but anyway yeah i always feel like well you're not going to be able to read menus anymore that's the last thing that's going to go all right uh i mdb game maybe yeah would you like to tell the listeners what the i mdb game is yeah at the end of every episode we do the imdb game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress

and try and guess the top four titles that i mdb says they're most known for if any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits. We mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That's the IMDB game. Would you like to give her guess first? I'll give first.

So we were talking about the borderline films trio of Josh Mond and Sean Durkin and Antonio Campos. And we talked at the beginning of this episode about the... staircase. One of the great comedic performances on television this year was given in the staircase by one, Ms. Parker Posey. She was Parker Posey saying

Riven and suckin and fucking is the funniest goddamn thing. It was that Tati Westbrook sucking dick and cock, except in like a southern accent. So yeah, we've never done Parker Posey, so

let me have it. scream three yes scream three house of yes unfortunately no even though she rules in that yeah yeah which christopher guest do i think is in there i think it's best in show incorrect all right two strikes your years are i don't think years are gonna help 1993 2004 and 2006 yeah years definitely don't help but 93 is curious is that um when was house of yes house of yes is like 95 97 i'm pretty sure damn okay um is it just a movie i wouldn't think of as 1993 maybe it's a movie by a major director uh it

is very meaningful to me, probably not to you. Oh. I don't know. You might like this movie, but, like, I love this movie. From 1993, from a major director. Yeah. So it's probably a small... Oh, is it, um, is it dazed and confused?

It's dazed and confused. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, dast and confused doesn't read as that early to me, but it's interesting. Yeah. She's so fucking good in dazed and confused. She's a monster.

I bet a lot of the cast of Dazed and Confused. It shows up on their known for, too. I should have thought of that. All right, 04 and 06. A 4 and 06. I'm going to give you a hint that, shockingly, and infuriatingly, there are no Christopher guest movies on this list. I mean, the thing about Parker Posey in those movies is, like, her highest billing in any

of them is probably Guffman. And she's, like, fourth or fifth billed, probably in that. movie. Right, and Guffman is like kind of underserved on the IMDB game, which is why I guess Best in Show, because it's been on other people's. Well, plus that's the one with like, she's the most prominent in that of the three of my god. Oh my God. This is bullshit. Is 2006 Superman Return? It sure is. Fuck off. Yep. Okay, so that means 04. It's going to be a, year after a mighty wind I will say

allow Superman returns to be your guide for this next one. Because it's a franchise movie. Is it an X-Men movie? No. She's in an X-Men movie, right? No. But it's a franchise. Yes. And it's like an action franchise. Yes. What the fuck is this? She shows up for like two scenes.

and something absurd. I don't know if it's that small of a role. It's the third movie of thus far three, although it is currently being revived, I think, is a movie. Oh, my God. All of these, all of Parker Posey's are like franchises. Yeah.

Okay. The third of a movie about to be revived, the third of a franchise about to be revived as a movie, action franchise. So it would have ended with this. Is this like a critically reviled third entry? No, I don't think so. It's not the most critically beloved of the entries,

but I do believe it was like a, I think it made the most money maybe of the three. Maybe not. Interesting that they stopped. Yeah, so maybe that's not the case. I remember this being like fairly well received, though. Okay. This was an installment where it added an actor.

to it, who felt like they were maybe going to try and siphon it off onto this person, although it would have made no sense. And it's not a DM of Jones, but that's an example of that. I mean, the franchise is named after the main character, so there's no way they were going to be able to siphon it off onto somebody else, actually, so I don't understand. Oh, okay. Oh, my God.

What is it then? I think she plays either the bad guy or one of the bad guys. Giving Superman Return. It's action, but it's also another genre mixed in. It's action comedy, right? Nope, no, no. Action horror? Yep.

It's not the mummy. The third mummy came out late. Nope. Action horror. It's not fan Helsing because they only made the one girl. The second installment of this trilogy was directed by somebody who would later go on to win an Oscar and Best Picture. Oh, it's Hellboy 3. It's not Hellboy.

Damn it. Well, no, he did multiple. It's Blade 3. Blade Trinity. Yes. It is Blade Trinity was not well received because... It wasn't? Wesley Snipes barely speaks in the movie because he showed up on...

Like, when he would show up on set, apparently, he refused to say his lines. I feel like I... So it's like a performance of, like, 75% reaction shots. Hold on a second. Let me look and see. I forgot she's in Blade Trinity. Yeah, she's, I think she's like the main bad guy vampire. Right, but they thought that they were going to spin it off with Ryan Reynolds and Jessica Beale. Okay, all right. So it made a little bit less than Blade 2, but more than Blade 1.

Oh my God, it's a 25% Rotten Tomatoes. I was totally wrong. remembering this movie I think it was because There's some stuff that's fun about it but like I like the Blade movies I actually I feel like Blade is the is never going to happen

I feel like people really like Herschel Ali for that years ago granted but I think it's like in production now I think it's like because he was yes because I believe I believe Mahershala's voice is in the post credit Stinger for Eternals

So I think it's like That would at least say that they are serious about making it No but I think it's like in production Hold on a second Pre-production Yeah okay I think it's I mean I think it's it's on the way Anyway

I think what I was remembering about Blade Trinity Was I think people liked Ryan Reynolds in it I remember that being like a boon to his career That was a movie that was like Ryan Reynolds got super like ripped because he was like Van Wilder before that and then he got like super ripped for the Amityville Horror remake and Blade Trinity

and then people were like oh well now he can be like in the X-Men you know what I mean like then they cast him in my least favorite actors oh absolutely but that was I believe that was the narrative there anyway sorry I totally misremembered the reception for Blade Trinity

that's okay I totally misremembered that she was even in it Wait, Natasha Leone is in Blaine Trinity and Triple H from the WWE. I totally... That movie's kind of... Did I ever see this movie? Like, I thought I did? Maybe I never saw it.

I thought I did. All right, anyway. Okay, so for you, we've talked a lot about Winter's Bone on this episode of the impact it had in the reception for this movie. So for you, I went in, surprisingly, we apparently haven't done her, Jennifer Lawrence. or as this year's best actor winner pronounced her in the very next year, Jennifer Lawrence. All right.

It's wild that this was like the year in between her first Oscar nomination and her win. You know what I mean, 2011? All right. Jennifer Lawrence, Silver Linings Playbook. Correct. American Hustle. Correct. I want to guess Joy, but I don't think it's Joy.

Um, the question is, how do we X-Men? How do we X-Men slash Hunger Games this? Because I, in the past, when Hunger Games has shown up, it has not been the first Hunger Games. I think because Catching Fire made so much more money. Isn't that like the highest earner of the four? I believe that's true. It's also the best of the four. I'm going to say Hunger Games Catching Fire.

Incorrect. Damn it. I'm going to say... X-Men... Days of Future Past. Incorrect. All right. I'm giving you your years.

2011, the year we're talking about in 2012. Is 11 X-Men first class? It is secret, like, heavy hitter in the IMTV game, X-Men First Class. I got too cute. I got too cute with Days of Future Pass. What's the other one? 2012. 2012 is...

The first Hunger Games? Was the first Hunger Games? Yes. Okay. Yeah. I got too cute. I chose this because X-Men First Class is on there. And I was like, really for her?

And then I was like, no, X-Men First Class shows up for a lot of. of people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. X-Men is good. I like that one. That's, like, the only X-Men movie I like. Get out of here. The thing I think you are, you got caught up on Catching Fire about is that Catching Fire

shows up for a lot of people who are not in the first one. Okay. All right. Catching Fire is good. Didn't I give you, like, Lynn Cohen one time? You would have. Oh, rest of peace, Lynn Cohen.

God, that feels like something that you would do, Lynn Cohen. I would do that. All right, good episode. Yeah, good episode, which is now over. If you want more this at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this at oscarbuzz.tomboz.com. You can also follow our Twitter at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Joe, tell our teachers and leaders where they can find more of you. Yeah, I'm on Twitter and letterboxed at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D.

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