This Had Oscar Buzz - 207 – Life Itself (with Billy Ray Brewton)

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

We don’t know if we’re equipped to episode this much, but here we are. A bomb so fiery, we brought host of The Incinerator podcast host Billy Ray Brewton to help us unpack it all: 2018′s Life Itself. From This Is Us’ Dan Fogelman, the film assembles a large ensemble including Oscar Isaac, Olivia Wilde, … Continue reading "207 – Life Itself (with Billy Ray Brewton)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. The heroes and villains of our stories are actually just day players in a much bigger movie. But I was naked dressed in my...

I want to live a big, great, fantastical life. Let's get married. We've been dating less than a year. I know. And I feel like I've shown incredible restraint waiting this long. I love you, but I may not be equipped to be loved this much. Hello, and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that is definitely not Peggy Lee, but we might be Barbara Cook. Every week on the set of Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here. to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle. I am here, as always, with my unreliable narrator, Joe Reed. I'm a trickster. Much like life, I fool you and lead you in wrong directions and such and so on. We will get into it, but not our first horrible bus. I wrote that down.

I said, here we meet again, unexpected bus acts. This is kind of surprise bus accident at the movie. And again. Yeah. This movie really, really goes for it. Is this the definitive person gets run over by a bus movie? Well, here's what I'm thinking, watching this. And I don't want to get too far into it before we introduce our guests.

But I will just say that Dan Fogelman vastly overestimates the amount of conversations that people have in a city where they are walking backwards into a street without looking anywhere. Like, I feel like those conversations never got interesting until they, until the person having the conversation started walking backwards into the street. And I don't quite know what kind of conversational style that is, but it's not one I'm very much used to. I am very utilitarian when I cross the street. I'm not like whatever, like, you know, I try to look both ways. I live on the edge a little bit. No, no, no. But, like, you know what I mean?

Like, I'm a person. I have awareness of my surroundings. I try not to. human and not an alien. Heedlessly back into traffic, like I'm some kind of psychotic tour guide or something like that. So, yeah. We'll get into the psychosis, but you're right. We have a guest to bring in.

Yes. You know him as, or listeners know him as the host of the Incinerator podcast, which we both then on, talking about our beloved focus features. Billy Ray Bruton's here. Oh, hi. So that's why I'm here. Okay, cool. We tricked you.

This was not a movie that you stamped your claim in as soon as we met you, but we tricked you into getting on this bus. All of your life, all the choices that everybody around you has made in their lives has led to this moment of you being on this podcast talking about this movie. Hey, I'm just glad to be here talking about my favorite doc about Roger Ebert. Oh, God. Really glad. Oh, we've made a terrible mistake.

Oh, no. We could do an episode on the Ebert Life itself. That was cruelly snubbed for an Oscar. Can I just claim all movies called Life Itself from now until the end of time? Yes, that's your niche. That is your niche on this podcast now. Yes, yes, yes. I like to be specific with what I bring to the table.

Very good. All right, yes. The Bus, though. The Bus. Okay, definitive person gets hit by a bus cinema. Life itself, Marguerette, obviously, the aforementioned Marguerette. Final Destination Final Destination

Don't forget Mean Girls kind of Meet Joe Black Well that's not a bus No right That's a car Not a bus But a car

It would be funnier It was a bus Because he does the whole flip I do think it I do think it falls into the subgenre that I like to call Negligent Bus Trauma Yes

Definitely true Yes Definitely true Mean Girls is a fake out Which I always Sort of misremember Well, no, because Regina does get hit by something to put her in that little halo. Well, I think the line is, and then she died, just kidding, or something like that.

So she gets hit by the bus, but she doesn't die. But then the sophomore plastics or whatever at the very end, that's also a fake out. That's a fake out. You know that because you've seen that on every other episode leading into drag radio. You know what Mean Girls has? An unreliable narrator, as we note in the end of that movie. Okay. Listen, if you're listening to Olivia Wilde, every movie has an unreliable narrator because life is an unreliable narrator.

So it takes, I will say, some degree of confidence for a movie and for a screenwriter to write a college thesis level conceit into their film and then within the story, make it. a college thesis. Like that feels some kind of like it's either potato potato you say confidence I say psychosis This is what I mean I think it's a thin line in life Chris sometimes

Between the two You know why it's a thin line in life Because life isn't unreliable We'll be coming back to that I think a lot today It's like it's like thrift store Charlie Kaufman They're trying real Yeah it's it's they're searching for that same

level of complication and profundity that Kaufman is searching for, except they took the wrong bus. Also, Kaufman overtly, I think, is a bit of a misanthrope, whereas this movie plays as if it has sort of a warm and open heart towards humanity, but delights in endlessly putting them through horrors and misfortunes and paces. and tragedies and whatnot, and it is the Saw movie, basically. It's in the jigsaw cinematic universe.

Not not. This film trucks in the kind of nihilism that you only see in films like that, where this is, it's not torture porn. It's, I mean, it kind of is, it's just emotional torture porn. Yeah, I think that's right. And so, yeah, when you say that it's in the same universe as the Saw movies, I can get, I can get on board with that because there are a lot of these characters that I would like to see strapped to some sort of weird jaw device.

Yeah, at some points in the movie, not to be awful, but I'm like, where's the bus? Can we bring the bus back again at certain points in this movie? It's very few characters who get out of this movie without some kind of tragic end, honestly. So, like, the bus she comes for us all in this movie. There's cancer, multiple forms of cancer, suicide. And it's not just what I think is sadistic about this movie. It's not just like the individual person's death is awful, but like other people's are, like, trauma that's inflicted on other people.

Like, he has to watch Olivia Wilde get hit by the bus. He shoots himself in front of his therapist in a session. That's a whole discussion right there. Yeah. There's a, we'll, we're going to have a lot to, to chew on with this movie. I will say for as much as I feel like this is a movie that kind of got swiftly, uh, kicked into the ground and buried, uh, not long after people first saw it, but, I think there will be at least a lot to talk about in this episode.

So good for us. Certainly, certainly. But we have some things to get into before we get so deep into the movie. Namely, we have our guests here. Billy Ray. Welcome. Once again, we were on your podcast. Incinerating the films of focus features.

Talk about trauma visited upon us that we had to incinerate so many of our beloved favorite movies. Yeah. The whole reason that podcast was created was to inflict as much trauma as possible that like life itself will hopefully become intergenerational and

pass down. Yeah. That's all I can hope for. What gave you the idea to do a listing podcast in that particularly brutalist fashion? Well, I mean, I think we're all, you know,

you were all screen drafts people here and I was true you know I've been doing screen drafts since the early days and I love love you are I will say one of the more take no prisoners screen drafts presences I have I have listened to on that podcast you know I like to think you know I don't I don't go on podcast to make friends I go on podcast to stir up some shit and but I love competition podcasts and I was like well shit I was like well fuck you clay you kind of came up with the perfect format then i was like wait a minute screen drafts is so regimented and so regulated like what if i made something that was literally just it had so many rules that it basically there were no rules and so i'm also a big fan

there are so many rules i know and i'm also a big film spotting fan and they do this thing every year they do film spotting madness and they utilize the quote unquote incinerator so it was like well i'm going to take my two favorite film cast film podcast steal from both of them an adequate amount and then pretend like it's this brand new thing that no one's ever thought of. I will say the one thing that I found surprisingly freeing about that format when we were on it was

all but one of those movies are going to be incinerated. So it does feel like shoot your guns in the air kind of thing of just like, I'm just going to go all out and whatever because by the end of this thing everything's going to burn except for one thing and we managed to get

we got Eternal Sunshine to the top story. spot, right? Not to spoil listeners who want to go listen to it. You should listen to it anyway. We had such a good time. So I think I was happy with the outcome and chaos reigned everywhere else, and that was very fun. Yeah, that was the right number one film for that list. It doesn't always happen where you get the right film up top, which is the nature of the beast. But that was an episode where I felt like there was the right film, the right place. Everything else besides that is just madness. But that made a lot of sense. Yeah. So,

Well, but that's not how we met you. We met you through screen drafts because we did the queer Oscars with you, I think. And you laid your claim into this movie, like, immediately. I did. Okay, so tell us, I think, buses aside, tell us why. Well, so this was a film that when it was released initially, I avoided Like the Plague. And I avoided it because I am one of those people who ever since the, very first, it started airing,

have thought that This Is Us was one of the worst pieces of garbage TV shows that ever existed. I was not on the This Is Us train. I'm so, I'm Parenthood Loyal, yo. And so when I see a movie that feels like, or a series

that feels like parenthood light, I just wasn't getting behind that. And so I was already like, oh God, more Dan Fogelman. Like, I cannot do this. So I avoided it like the plague Until one day our screen drafts own Clay Keller was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, this movie is wild and you need to see it. And so I was like, fine, okay.

And I begrudgingly saw it after getting pressure from Clay for a while. And within the first 20 minutes, I was like, is this the most glorious thing that has ever been created? And then eventually I was like, no, obviously it's not. it's absolute garbage but in one of the most like what the fuck like you kind of can't believe it as it's happening it really does kind of beggar belief as you're watching it i would say it's the first 45 minutes of the movie and then when it gets really boring then it's like why am i still here yes yes yes it is it is it is it is like all of the it's like it's so convoluted and complicated it's it's It's like they tip the dominoes at the beginning, but all the dominoes just, like, land in a big pile.

So there's nothing pretty about the way the dominoes go. And, but that first 45 minutes, I just, I could just watch that on repeat and never get bored and never get bored. Well, and again, there's something about the off-putting confidence of a movie that steps forward in the way that this movie does, where in the first 15 minutes, this movie tries, like, four different things. that Fogelman seems to fully believe are very audacious and maybe would be in the hands of a better filmmaker, but are just one on top of the other, so incredibly obnoxious, manages to make Oscar Isaac somebody who you deeply cannot stand. Oh, God. And then, and it's just all so front-loaded.

And then by the time it gets to the point where the movie. settles down, which is essentially when, like, Olivia Cook comes into the play, right? That's sort of when the movie is like, and here we are. And by that time, you're just so beat up as a viewer by what you've seen. And it's, and again, there is some kind of demented confidence in that, but it's the kind of confidence of, like, somebody who walks into a party who's, like, very loud and is sort of, you know, makes their presence felt and maybe, like, yell something across the room and says something. that's, like, slightly offensive, but not so much that you could, like, make a federal case about it or whatever. So you're calling Dan Fogelman a frat, bro. A little bit, where he walks in and you just sort of look to your friend and you're just like, that guy sucks. Like, that guy sucks. And I don't want to, like, make aspersions about Dan Fogelman as a person, like, whatever.

Like, very well may be, like, a fantastic person. But the persona of this film, I think, is so obnoxious. Well, I mean, like, you call it confidence, and I don't feel like when I watch this movie, I don't feel like I'm watching somebody who's confident in making some leaps. I feel like I'm watching someone who's delusional in making some leaps that are just like bizarre. I mean, we've seen bad movies like this before. We've talked about bad movies like this before. But it's the pedigree of people involved in this movie and like involved at like the minute level where like Annette Bennett, shows up to smoke and have Oscar Isaac curl like awful things that are including shooting himself and like Antonio Pandaris is in this movie Gene Smart is in a scene of this movie

This is the other thing This movie completely misapprehends what people who go to movies for actresses as I raise my hand will feel like about a movie that Miss, like... Gills all of its actresses. Well, or just like completely, you know,

declines to make good use of Annette Benning and Gene Smart in a movie like this. And you're just like, God damn you. Well, but I think the thing I'm getting at is that it's like, a lot of people had to just be like, yeah, this is fine. Yeah. Sure. Like that, and I mean, this is also at a weird time for Amazon too,

which we'll talk about the Amazon of, this whole movie. Yeah. In that, like, they're kind of greenlighting some crazy stuff to the point that I'm like, Annette is the last of it. We will never see Amazon doing a movie like Annette ever again. I hope you soaked it up while you could. Yeah.

This, I think what most attracts me to this film in particular is I am fascinated by filmmakers who they have these very quick sort of instantaneous successes. which then affords them the ability to do whatever they want to do. And this is one of those who are like, and this is what you chose. And like this was definitely a case of his success wrote a check that his talent could not cash. And I think of something like malignant from last year

where it's like James I'm on top of the world. You know, and let me be clear, before I say that, I love malignant. But so like I think about that movie, like he's on top of the world after a fast and furious movie. in the Conjuring films. What does he make? He makes a wild fucking insane movie that works.

And this is... That is a movie with confidence, too, I will say. Yes. That is a movie that I would say is made with confidence. I mean, I don't know what... I mean, I saw it, but I don't know that Danny Collins was received so well that it should have given him this kind of confidence. We have thoughts on Danny Collins, I will say.

We love Danny Collins. We'll get into it. We did an episode on Danny Collins, had no idea. yeah, what we would think of it when we watched it. And then we both kind of somewhat sheepishly came to the recording and I'm like, I kind of loved that movie. It's a good,

it's not a bad movie. I really like it. It's also insane too. Yes. Like I've mentioned several times, the movie is sponsored by the Hilton Honors membership. It reminds me of the scene and what's love got to do with it when she

runs in and asks for help from the noble Ramada Inn manager. My name is Tina Turner. If you do not sound drop that, I will be so mad. I'm Tina Turner. My husband and I just saw how to fight. I'm supposed to open at the academy tonight. I have 36 cents on a mobile car.

But if you would give me a room, I swear, I will pay you back. No, no, no, that won't be necessary. My name is Turner, I'd be honored, really. We'll take care of you. Thank you. Nick, let's get Ms. Turner a room. My name is Tina Turner.

I've had a fight with my husband. I don't have any money. Do you have a room that I could use for the night? And then just to pause, Ms. Turner would be an honor. The noble Ramon. One of the greatest scenes in all of cinema. When I did that trivia round, Chris, several months ago

on clerks in the movies, I should have included that character. That would have been a good one. I mean, that noble Ramada end manager saves Ms. Turner's life. Okay, the thing you're saying about, like, him cashing a check and his talent couldn't do it,

what's interesting about, well, like, fascinating and, like, you know, it is like watching not a bus crash, but a car crash, of kind of, when this movie happens, like this is us kind of burned like bright and huge and like dropped off started to drop off as soon as this movie happens right to the point that like the final season just aired no one watched it no one cared and like it got one emmy nomination Joe or none I will say though yes it got one with a huge campaign behind it the trajectory of this is us is interesting because in terms of it's like pop culture cachet. Yes, it did drop off around the time that you said so. But, like, it was an

Emmy, serious Emmy contender in terms of nominations up until its penultimate season. And it was widely considered to be a major contender this year. Like, that campaign went all out. They were, I got so many emails about Mandy Moore this season for This Is Us. Like, they really, really were going hard. Like, their cast members were in the press all the time talking about how much Mandy more deserved an Emmy nomination and like they were really really going for it and and much like shows that like modern family before it and whatever were like shows that sort of become unstuck from the cultural conversation but still go on for like several seasons the Emmys tend to sometimes have a longer tail with them and then just drop off unexpectedly like you kind of can't

predict when the Emmys will like totally be done with a show and this is us it was this last year where they were just like, yeah, we've got mother fish to fry. But even up until like two years or a year ago or two years ago, like Chris Sullivan was getting nominated and, you know, it was getting outstanding drama nominations. It's kind of amazing. But the ratings were dropping off at the same time, too. Yeah. Certainly they were not.

This was a show that got a lot of attention early because it was the rare network show that was getting really strong ratings. And as a sort of family drama, as opposed to like a Dick Wolf. you know, Chicago Sanitation Department kind of, you know what I mean? Like, whatever show. And I think there was a lot of, every once in a while when a show like that pops, people get

very, very hopeful that like network TV is back, baby, like that kind of a thing. And I'm less optimistic about Abbott Elementary this year, as much as I love that show. I mean, I think it's different for sitcoms. I think also ABC does a good job of sort of nurturing its sitcoms in that

way. Blackish managed to go for quite a long while and I'm I'm hopeful that for Abbott Elementary I think I think with dramas it's different especially when a drama like this is us where the hook of it was so much you won't believe how they're going to make you cry this week like that was big in the marketing whatever like this show is going to like punch you in your feels and you're going to whatever and I think Abbott Elementary isn't that flashy and so I I think a show like that can manage to sort of keep going. Like they haven't even, I mean, not to like totally like detour us, but like Abbott

Elementary still hasn't gotten to the point yet that I do think they may get to where like they have the big romantic hook. Yeah. Like they're sort of inching towards that with Quinta Brunson and Tyler James Williams characters. But like they haven't even gotten to that part yet. And that's sort of when a sitcom is at this sort of crucial juncture. I hope they throw a curveball at that plot line. plotline because I don't want it to be Jim and Pam.

That's not every sitcom needs to have a romance, guys. Like, it really doesn't. Just let Janelle James do whatever the hell she wants to do. Billy Ray, this is also your first time on our show, and we always like to get a little background on our first time guests, and we call it our Oscar origin story. So tell us either if there was a movie that got you interested in the Oscars the first time you recognized the Oscar.

as an entity, or, you know, what got you either first noticing or interested in the Oscars? Well, that would be the same people who got me into pretty much all film, which would be Siskel and Ebert. I was an enormous Siskel and Ebert fan when I was a kid. It used to come on Sunday nights at 1030 on our station out of Chattanooga. And so I would stay up, which that was late for me when I was, you know, five and six years old. but I would stay up every Sunday until 10.30. I would watch Siskel and Iber, and that gave me, and I would be writing down films that I needed to see if they were at the video store,

and every year they would do if we picked the winners episode, where they would sort of give out their own Academy Awards to a degree. And I was just obsessed with that, and that's what got me into the Oscars, you know, right off the bat. And I think my first Oscars was one of those Billy Crystal, one of the Billy Crystal Oscars who I still think is the best host ever. Um, and, uh, yeah, that, that, that kind of set me, but, you know, like I said, it not only set me on, like, a path of loving the Oscars and being obsessed with the Oscars, but they're really the ones who got me into film in general. So, yeah, I think that's a great answer. I, a lot of that resonates with me as well. I definitely remember them being a big gateway as they were, like, quite a number of people, I think, in our generation. Were we? Um, just a great gateway for people who were, like, how else was I? supposed to know about a lot of those movies like truly you know there was no there was no internet

to speak of really at the time there was no that's how it was and even especially when they would talk about movies that you didn't see advertised on TV a lot you know what I mean there were always those like handful of movies that got all of the TV commercials and whatever and then towards the end of the episodes they would get into sort of smaller stuff a lot of stuff would be from Europe or whatever or Asia and smaller indie stuff. And that was the stuff that really fascinated me. I remember, oh, shoot, what was it? Oh, the Renee Zellweger movie, A Price Above Ruby's.

I remember them talking about, and I remember being like, oh, like, I know who René Zellweger is, because I think that came out just around the time that Jerry McGuire had come out, and either the same year or the year before. Yes. I think maybe that's. So maybe I only knew her from Empire Records at the time. Maybe it's a year after. But anyway, I remember that stuck out in my mind for whatever reason

because that was not a movie that got TV commercials, but they were talking about it. So they kind of put it in my mind. I've still never seen that movie. I should maybe see that. My big touchstone in terms of films to them was one false move, the Carl Franklin film. That was one that they both really, really championed.

I knew nothing about it. Because apart from them, the only way I got really news, I also subscribe to like premiere movie line magazine like all of those rags and like so I would get most of my info from there or from them and I remember hearing about one false move for the first time and even at that point when I was guessed like 10 years old I was already a big Bill Paxton fan and so it was just like oh hell I've got to see this movie as soon as it's available nice nice excellent well I'm very excited to be able to talk about this movie I'm so glad you're on to talk about it with us Chris should we get it Let's get into the 60-second plot description. Let's, you know, like a bus, turning a corner. We're going to do the 60-second plot description. Just as a reminder, we are here to talk about life itself. Not to talk about life.

We're talking about the movie life itself. Written and directed by one, Dan Fogelman, starring Oscar Isaac, Olivia Wild, Olivia Cook. That should be illegal. You cannot put Olivia Wild, not Olivia Cook together in a movie. Alex Monter. Mandy Batinkin, Laia Costa, Sergio Paris, Manchetta, Antonio Banderas, Gene Smart, Annette Benning, and Samuel L. Jackson, as himself, for some reason, Dan Vogelman, finger quotes, reasons,

and various MTA buses. The movie premiered as a TIF Gala on, like, the second night of the festival. We'll definitely talk about that, yeah. Opened wide, September 21st, 2018. Billy Ray, as our guest, you get tasked with doing the 60-second plot description. Are you ready? I'm ready. I don't think I'll need 60 seconds.

Okay. All right. Then your 60-second plot description for life itself starts now. In this remake of Kenneth Lonergan's Margaret, two intergenerational bloodlines from across the globe fall in and out of love and trauma until they finally make the perfect interracial couple. It's a very goofy, very dysfunctional family tree, and the plot fall. and slams into more than a few branches on the way down. It's easy to blaze Samuel L. Jackson, so why don't we?

In 20 seconds, that's life itself. Wow. Short and sweet, like life itself. I mean, basically, you saved us, you could have saved us all two hours of Dan Fogelman's scribblings.

I mean, scribblings is a apt word for it, because it feels like it was written like a lunatic tick in a cell just scribbling on with blood on the wall. I was going to say it's like a serial killer's like greeting cards or something like if

if you know Jeffrey Dahmer wrote a Mother's Day card that is life itself. Oh this was made by someone with multiple personalities. Like I imagine that Dan Fogelman is writing this like you know on an on an

olive farm on the beautiful Spanish son slamming into his shoulders and then he hears like but wait a second what about the buses he's like oh god what do i do about the buses and and of course it shows without saying that obviously this film was funded by mTA to some degree i mean mTA our bus drivers are or mta's yeah chief competitor or something like that like it was funded by tesla or something like that so distrust in public I do remember thinking when this, when this film came, when I, when I finally got around to seeing this film and I was thinking back to the time that it came out, it was like, you know, MTA has featured so much in this, you would have think they would have given them more bus ads in Los Angeles. Because I never did I see life and self plastered on a bus anywhere.

So I don't know what ever. And then you saw the movie and you're like, oh, I get it. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, there's a lot that MTA probably doesn't want to be associated with in this film. it's not just like the death and dismemberment in this movie because it's also just the things that come out of people's mouths like people noted this when the first trailer came out the one thing about the trailer was like oh here comes an Oscar movie and at the time I was like y'all are falling for this hook line and sinker because this looks like garbage and like even in the trailer the lines that Oscar Isaac says like the thing he says to Olivia Wilde of like Um, like, I'm not going to go on a date with you because the first time I go on a date with you that sets my whole life, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I'm never going to be away from you for a single day. And it's like, well, that's something a murderer would say, you need to get a restraining order against this man. He's, you are going to come home and he's going to be wearing your roommate's face. It's, every word out of his mouth is psychotic in this movie. Yeah, I will say, however. However, you are not the only person to look askance at that trailer.

No, I'm not saying I was the only one. I'm just saying that's a little bit of recasting history there. I think a lot of people looked at that trailer and were like, ooh. I was just saying, I did it. But I saw a lot of people being like, oh, Oscar movie. And it's like, okay. All I remember from that trailer is like, oh, Mandy Patinkin and Gene Smart. That's all I remember from that trailer in a positive way.

I love that idea. The thing about the... the premiere of that movie though because that trailer does drop and at the very least you do have the feeling of oh they're going for it with this movie like they definitely want prestige they want something very uh sort of you know awards friendly out of this movie and it sets itself for a tiff premiere and we were both at that one chris did you see it at that tiff or did you Hell no, because this is our, the thing is, and I haven't, like, we haven't mentioned this like in a while, but there's certain movies that after we had started doing this podcast, it's like, I'm not watching that. A, because I don't want to watch that. But B, because I'm like, I'm not watching that twice. Because we're going to have to do it eventually. So this premiered on, I want to say, this first Saturday night of the festival. It was the first Saturday or the first Friday.

I think it was the first, I think it was the first, I think it was the first Saturday. because I think I remember seeing it at the P&I on the Sunday because so it premieres at this gala and the people that I knew who saw it there, who covered it and who came out of there, the tweets coming out of there were a lot. There was just like, people were like, you got to see this for yourselves. I can't believe. By the third person I saw who compared it to collateral beauty, I remember saying to somebody and it might have been you or I was like, well, I got to see it. And I was at that point covering the festival for my previous job, which was focused on streaming platforms. And because it was the Amazon angle, I'm like, well, now I definitely have to go see this and write about it. And so I actually went back and read your piece because the headline is something like 10 things that definitely happen in life itself. It literally just became like a laundry list of like these things actually happened in this. movie because it was just so unbelievable at that point. But

I remember being like, well, if people are comparing this to collateral beauty, I got to go see it. So I went and saw the P&I. And then it's just like, yeah, like, I get it. I get that comparison because it is that same level of like prestige, but also like

bonkers and not good. And I think collateral beauty is definitely more fun because fewer people get killed. Don't turn is the good name of my precious collateral beauty. Oh, listen, collateral beauty is also a very bad movie. No, it's a disaster, but like it's a more unique disaster.

This is just a movie that's at 11. That's a disaster. Collateral beauty is like, broadcast it to the aliens. No one behaves like people behave in that movie. Plus, you get to kind of play along with collateral beauty and try and guess what the next plot twist is going to be. And like, that's kind of fun too. And this movie, like we said, gets boring at a certain point.

But, no, that premiere, I remember that premiere. And, like, the, the tweets that were coming out of it and, like, yes, festival tweets get annoying at a certain point. But, like, it had the air of exasperation that, like, people were just waiting to get out of that building as soon as possible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was very funny. Billy Ray, were you following this, like, when the movie premiered? Or, like, had you already written it off? written it off, but I still always follow

generally the bigger festivals just to see what's coming out, because I'm generally always programming for festivals of my own. And I remember that film premiering and Twitter just exploding with the kind of zeal that you only get from these kind of

epically bad movies. Because sometimes, you know, sometimes Twitter will be like, ah, this film sucks. But this was one where people were taking an active relish, relishing in how bad it was. And Yeah. I remember one of the very first tweets that I ever saw about this film, which we've already

mentioned about this film during this discussion already, which is essentially this film is just trying to be Margaret. It is trying to take, it is trying to take this one traumatic incident and then span it and turn it into this big, complicated, and it just, like, Kenneth Launergan can get away with that. Dan Fogelman, me, yib-da-da-da. Yeah. Well, he also does that fairly aggravating thing where he takes these kind of painfully verbose and like overly neurotic and self-aware characters who live in, you know, New York City

and they are going for a postgraduate degree and they're incredibly well-versed in like film and music discussions and we'll get into the Pulp Fiction and Bob Dylan. Cameron Crow, but unhinged Cameron Crow. But then what he does also that I find especially aggravating is, because I will be the first in line to forgive a lot of movies that dabble in that pond, because at least I can find some of those things enjoyable to watch. I can enjoy a Whit Stillman. I can enjoy a Cameron Crow. What Fogelman does that I find so aggravating is then he decides, but now I'm going to contrast all that with the. the realness of this olive field in Spain and the sort of salt of the earth,

you know, this man works on the land. And this is, you know, now we're going to get into some real life. And to make everybody be like, you know, really makes you think. Because the movie does pivot when it goes to Spain, right? And yes. And I think that's deeply. And I think that's kind of when it gets really boring. And I think Fulgman really thinks like he's getting deep.

deep at that point. Well, it's a thing that you're saying because, like, it gets super boring, so it's like it's easier to zone out in those parts, but it's just as egregious because it's like you're saying where it's like, look at these salt of the earth people in another country. And it's like, that's just as bad and offensive, Dan Fogelman. Yeah. I will say, I think Bandaris is good in this movie, as good as he can be. Right. He's, he's pretty good. I will say, though, he plays it a bit to, he plays it a bit too much like he's in the godfather which is

like he is being like no one is taking this movie more seriously than Antonio Banderas like he is all in. The movie's also asking him to like sit there and mug and be like wise middle aged man right? Oh he's a silver fox in this like it's like I'm going to be the silver fox and basically

basically his whole character exists to just cuckled another man as much as possible right also it's worth noting that Antonio Banderas's beard and Mandy Patinkin's beard in this movie are sort of moving across space and time towards each other to meld into like the er beard and it's just at some point you're waiting for the sort of singularity to happen and both of those beards to meet and they're saying you want

them to kill or else like the universe would implode it's headwig in the angry inch it's origin of love we're just trying to get those beards together that's right one fits into the other perfectly how do you find my other half is it he or she I mean, that narration could fit just as easily with life and stuff than anything else. I'd rather that than all this shit about unreliable narrators.

Okay, but the second, people don't really talk about the second half of the movie, as we've illustrated it, it's very boring, but it's also doing something that's like kind of annoying, but it, like, it makes the movie so bifurcated in that, like, it's trying to teach its own

lesson. Like, the first half of the movie you have, we didn't even discuss much of Olivia Wilde's character but like we gotta loop back to it at some point but that's the whole like unreliable narrator thing and like this is doing a different version of the unreliable narrator because it's like the whole portion of this story is supposed to be

like the people that you think are bad or ill intended might actually be the good people and the people that you think are the good people they might be just like misguided because it's Antonio Bandaris having an affair with Laia Costa who

I wanted to root for Laia Costa in this movie Because did you guys ever see that movie Victoria? Oh yeah, years again. It's all shot in a little shake. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's great.

I had issues with that movie mostly in like the one takeness of it, but she's great in that movie. Yeah, I liked her a lot, yeah. So I was rooting for her in this movie, but it's like she just very quickly becomes like a woman dying of cancer for several decades.

And it's like, you know, it's that type of model and closer to the type of thing. Well, she also is a character who, like, essentially bounces between the whims of these sort of proud and selfish men, right? Like, what is, what is her actual agency as her husband and the Antonio Banderas character kind of vie for her affections? And she just sort of blows with the wind. Well, she gets to die from cancer. That's her agency. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the movie's version of her agency is her saying to one man, I'll never love you as much as I loved him.

Yeah, that's about it. But it also gets confusing because Olivia Cook, who is supposed to be Oscar Isaac and Olivia Wilde's daughter, sees... When it's trying to pull these two stories together, the child in Spain ends up becoming her husband. Yes, the child in Spain. He's mainly on the plane. We understand. In the plane, in the plane. But in tying those two stories together, we see he was on the bus that her mother died on?

Yeah, the bus that killed her mother. He was the one, he was the, he was the Lisa Cohen. The bus driver. That distracted the bus driver that killed her mother. And in Dan Fogelman, diseased mind he's like fate and then the rest of us are just looking at it and just be like this is horrible what a terrible coincidence to have to and then they have to be with each other and know this information for the rest of their lives and like and dan fulkeman's like

is doesn't that tell you something about like the the way of the universe and you're like god i hope not it tells you no more it tells you no more than if they discovered into their relationship that they were like distant brother and sister or something it's the same sort of thing they're both traumatic and horrible like it's i didn't understand how it all happened until like the movie was over though because you see her before it goes into his story you see her see a vision of him as a little boy on the bus but then when we see his story we see that he was on the bus when it hits Olivia Wild, and then when he actually meets Olivia Cook, he's there as an adult and turning a corner. So it could not be rendered more confusingly in a way that thinks it's very smart, but is instead just like confusing.

And then I wonder if, I wonder if, this is just me playing devil's advocate here, I wonder if there is another better movie than this, by the way. Well, yeah, I'm thinking, like, what if they rearranged this movie in a different way? I wonder if it would have hit differently, because as of it right now, they open this movie with like 30 minutes of, we gotcha, in varying degrees. And a lot of that seems like it's not first act material. It seems like it's being put in a place where it doesn't belong. And that's why it feels so stilted, as fun as it may be. I'm just wondering if there's a way where you start out in the fucking olive fields, or you're, you start out in Spain, and you find a way to weave this story together in a different

sort of way that might make it work better. Well, it would at least give the story room to breathe without having this sort of oppressive feeling of the filmmaker talking to you and telling you how to interpret everything you're seeing as being very important and very, you know, as part of a thesis. Like the filmmaker laying out his thesis in, you know, in the form of a character speaking her thesis. Again, I find that that character being Samuel L. Jackson as Samuel L. Jackson.

No, I mostly mean like Olivia Wilde talking about her goddamn college thesis, but also Samuel L. Jackson as Samuel L. Jackson. Never, ever, ever. Is it acceptable in a movie for a character to barge into a house saying, I've got my thesis like she does in this movie?

And like, then expound upon what her thesis is going to be. By the way, no way she got higher than a C-minus on this thesis. Well, they even say in the movie, and then they blame it on her professor being a sexually harassing creep, if you recall, where they're literally- Right, and not because her thesis is garb. They, like, write a permission slip for that.

Like, oh, my God, that was so frustrating to me. And that very much mirrored. Who's, like, writing a book report, but never reads a book. Like, aren't she supposed to have, like, you know, a bibliography and such in a thesis? And, I mean, I wouldn't know. And after, though, this movie comes out, and the negative reviews have. happen, Dan Fogelman goes into, at the very least, there was a IndiWire article. He goes Aronovsky on it.

Do not be smirch. I'm telling you. I know. I love Mother, but like, we did an episode on Mother. I think Aronovsky was not entirely in the right about Mother, but more in the right about mother than people want to give him credit for. It's all I'm going to say. I mean, yes, but he should have just let it go and like say his piece once, but he kept

saying his piece and kept saying his piece. But what Fogelman did. has come out and like in the way that it was a little different and that people were like so explain this fiasco you've just made well and he was like male film critics don't like romance wait is that basically what he said he was like i think male film critics are not comfortable with emotion in films this is what he was saying and so first of all that's the dumbest possible thing to say because you are begging every female film critic who didn't like your movie to loudly remind people that they did not like your movie. And a lot of the prominent reviews for this movie were written by women. Yes, yes. That I remember at the time, because I remember a lot of the female film critics who responded to that comment and were like, actually, here's my review. And by the way, emotion is not the problem with this movie.

Right, right. It was, and it was also just very sort of like, you know, butt hurt, whatever. And, like, I never think that filmmakers are under any obligation to, you know be happy about your criticism but the response to that is pretty much always keep it to yourself grumble to your loved ones do not take it to the press there is no winning that game especially when it's reductive things like men don't like emotion yeah yeah yeah yeah also tell us you've never met a gay man without telling us you've never met a gay man that's yeah also that yeah people um men don't men don't like emotion there's something

else that men don't like either and that is this movie this movie it brings it brings everybody together men didn't like it exactly people didn't like it exactly people didn't like it it really does you know who does bring people together Oscar Isaac Oscar Isaac men love it women love it everybody loves it you know who it's uh it's the Diana Ross Mahogany joke well you know so here's the thing so this movie had some some cards stacked against it from the get-go because I'm am not the world's biggest Oscar Isaac fan. I think he is

fine. I think he is fine. And I don't say fine in the, he's fine. I was going to say, I was going to be like, oh, I think he's fine. I'd say he's fine. Like, he's a fine actor. I've never seen him in any film where I was like, oh,

this is the next generation, everybody. That said, the only thing that I could, anyone who knows me knows that I have a virulent disdain for Olivia Wilde as an actress. I have never been a fan of hers ever since, like, I was an O.C. nut. I couldn't stand her character in the O.C.

And that colored her for the rest of her career with me. And every time I see her in something, it makes me physically ill. And so, director is a totally different thing. Like, you know, totally... Well, I mean, you know, we're a month out of... Don't worry, darling, I know. ...directorial effort, which is absolutely no rumors surrounding it. I find myself, no fights going on there.

I find myself pre-scrambling a defense for her a little bit, and maybe I'm wrong to do so. But it does feel like there is a amber herding of Olivia Wilde happening in the rumor mill that I don't like the tone of because it feels like a lot of overly invested Harry Styles fans and also people who are very, very too much. invested in the cuckleding of Jason Sedakis which like I could give a shit about I don't know there's something

Go ahead No no no That's basically where I'm at It's just like None of that feels to me like proper justification And it's all like Dumas was fun for like two weeks

But now Des Mois is bad Like the culture around it is bad it's very Perez Hilton in that it's like all gossip, no reported, substantiated stuff, and like, none of this means anything. The Lawrence Pugh doesn't want to post anything. It's fans with axes to grind.

This is my thing with Jumwa. It's fans with axes to grind. Like, I don't need it. I'm sorry. I don't need it. As an actress, though, Olivia Wild. Billy Ray, I can't say that I share the full sentiment that you have because I've liked something like drinking

buddies. However, this movie, made me fully get it why people really don't like her as an actor. Because I mean, like, she gets the worst of it. I do... There are some things that Oscar Isaac has to say that I'm like, I think it's a miracle

that you were able to say that line with any type of conviction. But, like, her whole character, her whole ethos is just, like, so impossible. And I think it's probably going to pull out all of the unlikable qualities

of whatever performer is going to play the role that she plays. It's just a lot. I feel like for her role in this film, she really studied Gwyneth Paltrow in Proof. And she thought, how can I make this character, this character as unlikable as possible? And I think Gwitowice is great in Proof, by the way,

but that character is not remitting to be a likable character per se. But I feel like that was Olivia Wilde's inspiration. And part of me is like, what had this movie been made 20 years ago with Winif Paltrow in that role? Okay, but the thing about this movie, like, if you say, if it had been made 20 years ago,

it feels kind of dated in that way and that, like, we've talked about movies that have, like, learned all the wrong lessons from interconnectedness in movies from the 90s, you know, to where it becomes, like, crash, where it's just like, isn't it fucking crazy putting these two people together after whatever? And it's like, no,

Oh, it's just bad. Yeah. That was one of my, like, major thoughts that I'm like, Dan Fockelman could have feasibly written this script 20 years ago in a dorm room somewhere. I mean, we haven't even mentioned the obsession that this movie has with Time Out of Mind, the Bob Dylan. Oh, God. That was how I appreciated it because it went into Grammy's trivia.

And I was like, ooh, the movie has trivia and awards trivia at that. Let's walk up to that, though, because here's what I will say about the Olivia Wild thing, just to close that loop, is I obviously don't think she's good in this movie, but I feel like I can't imagine hanging up anything on any of the actors in this movie, because, like, I do love Oscar Isaac, and I think this movie made me hate Oscar Isaac, just the sight of him. And I was like, so the writing is clearly working against both of these characters. I think they are both written so obnoxiously, just the most obnoxious couple I've ever seen. And then everything, like all the ephemeral around them, just like going to the party and not just dressed like Vincent Vega and Mia Wallace from Pulp Fiction, but like quoting multiple lines of dialogue from the movie to each other. and like doing the dance and all of this is just like, get over yourself. If the movie was self-aware at all, it would be knowing that it's about the most annoying people at that party. That's the thing.

And it's the same thing with the Bob Dylan stuff. By this point in 2018, the people who talk to you about, and again, I have nothing against Bob Dylan. He is as talented and as influential as his reputation is. Like, I'm not here to be like, you know who sucks Bob Dylan? Like, I'm not that guy. But what I will say is the cliche of the person being like, I'm going to sit down with you and I'm going to talk to you about Bob Dylan for six straight hours has been like well and truly established and how this movie feels like it's going to get away with making its central romantic heroin that obnoxious person about Bob Dylan. And I think he also, Fogelman, thinks he's doing something clever by making that character a woman rather than a man. and that's not that novel to me.

I was just shocked, shocked that a movie decided that it was going to be that overtly, like, I'm going to just bore you to tears about time out of mind. I imagine that there were at least 100 instances when he was writing the script where he stopped and said, oh, that's clever, Dan. Yeah. I also imagine that as he was writing the script, he was listening to Time Out of Mind. the whole time. Like, it's very much like we get it. This is a writer trying to

put in a music reference that they so clearly love. And it, I mean, by the time the movie is done, you have heard Make You Feel My Love a million times. I know. It couldn't

be kind of a more cliche song choice, and it's like... Well, especially because by that point, the Adele version of it had become like the star Starbucks song of choice for every TV show. That song is everywhere. The one thing I will say and the one thing I always say to people

when the song, Make You Feel My Love, comes into a discussion. The best version of this song that nobody ever really ever talks about was on Joan Osborne's, I believe, second album, a follow-up to... Everybody feels like she only had that one album. But she had an album called Righteous Love, and she has a cover of that song, and it's gorgeous and wonderful. Can you go into a six-minute monologue about Joan Osborne, please? Like, she's your...

I love Joan Osborne. I'll go into a six-minute monologue about Garth Brooks, who sings the definitive version of that song. You guys are just baiting me trying to say that the Leah Michelle from Glee version is the one of that you know of. There's a million versions of them, but we've heard all of those versions,

and we've heard all of those versions a thousand times. And it's like... I want to hear the Beanie Feldstein version. Maybe it'll be added to the Marely Woo Role of a movie that will never be released. That will never happen, ever. I mean, apparently they filmed the first sequence already. Have they not recast Blake Jenner yet?

He's not on the IMPD. He just got in some sort of bad headline. There was just some bad headline about him recently, I feel like. He got in some other skirmish or whatever. I don't know. poor Richard Linkletter honestly like Richard Linkletter innocent he does not deserve this

this trauma I don't know wait what I wanted to say also though about time out of mind and about awards ephemera is that Grammy Awards was a real interesting Grammy Awards so he wins

I was going to say I was going to ask you guys if you could name the record and song award winner of that year but if you did the research, Joe. Unfortunately, I've got, I already pulled it up before we started recording, so I know it, but Billy Ray, you can guess. You'll never get it.

I'll never get it. Same song, one record and song of the year. This was 1998. 1998. I don't know that I'm going to be able to. 1998, hold on. Inescapable. So pulling from the music of largely 1997.

mombo number five no but that would be amazing what is it okay how about I read you some of the other nominees in a record of the year Paula Cole's where of all the cowboys gone which was also nominated for song of the year Paul Cole was a

album of the year nominee and one best new artist but didn't win the other big categories other record of the year nominees are Every Day is a Winding Road by Cheryl Crow the timeless Mbop by Hansen.

I believe I Can Fly, which was also a Song of the Year nominee by I have a thought. And the other song of the year nominees were How Do I Live by Leanne Rhymes and also Trisha Yearwood. Trisha Yearwood Hive. Written by.

Written by. Now I'm going to Ryan Warren. I think I do know what it is now. And it's out of, I want to say, it's sunny came home. It is Sonny Came Home by Sean Colvin. Listen, it's Sunny Came Home.

Sunny came home. Sunny came home with a mission. Yes. Sunny came home with... I haven't thought about that song. in 24 years. So, but the other, the tidbit about that Grammys was song of the year award gets presented. First of all, nobody expected Sean Colvin to win.

She was kind of like the one that everybody kind of overlooked. Most people were predicting like Cheryl Crow to win record of the year and for basically anybody else, Diane Warren to win Song of the Year or even R. Kelly. And so Sean Colvin wins both of those. Song of the Year is presented by Erica Badu and Wyclef Jean, and they announced the winner, Sean Colvin and it's a big surprise. And then by the time they get to Sean Colvin and her co-songwriter get to the stage, old dirty bastard has stormed the stage and is going on his monologue about Wu-Tang is for the children. And, you know, Puffy's cool, but Wu-Tang is for, Wu-Tang forever.

Oh, I forgot about Wu-Tang is for the children. I went and bought me an outfit today that costed a lot of money today. You know what I mean? Because I figured that Wu-Tang was going to win. I don't know how y'all see it. But when it comes to the children, Wu-Tang is for the children. We teach the children. You know what I mean?

Puffy is good, but Wu-Tang is the best. Okay? I want y'all to know that. This is ODB and I love you all. And this was also the Grammys where Dylan's performing on stage and the guy jumps up on the stage and writes SoyBomb on his chest and starts dancing around. That is the soy bomb year.

That's the soy bomb year. I forgot all about that. One more thing about that, Grammys, aside from ODB and Soybomb, this thing that I just, as I'm scrolling through the list of awards and presenters, the winner of best rap solo performance that year was, yes, Will Smith for Men in Black, that award was presented by Vanessa Williams and, you guessed it, Chris Rock. Wow. Fun facts for all.

Wild. So that's when that whole thing started. You're not a long history. A long, long history. Yeah. So anyway, I thought that was an interesting little tidbit of the 40th annual Grammy Awards. Let's pop back into like the Dan Fogelman of it all for a second, though. Because like this was his follow up to my.

my beloved Danny Collins. But up until then, he had... Your beloved Danny Collins. Our precious child, Danny Collins. That's true. I guess our shared custody baby, Danny Collins. He had done a lot of screenwriting up until then. We have already covered on this podcast, Crazy Stupid Love, another movie that we did not care for, I will say.

Certainly not at least. Oh, wow. Are you a fan? Are you a fan of Crazy Stupid Love? I am a fan. I mean, the charms of that movie are charming, but it's also another movie where everyone is an alien. I think that's a movie, as I recall, when we covered it, I think I must have mentioned the stark drop-off for me from when it's Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone, who I think are delightful and lovely and magnetic and attractive and wonderful in that movie, and then like everything else that happens in that movie, which I really don't care for. the Marissa Tomé of it all.

Ryan Gosling's body in that movie is a work of art. Oh, truly, truly. Ryan Gonzal, referring to his penis as a schvans, had to be an ad lib. That's amazing. Fulleman's writing credits. There's a bunch of animation on there.

Cars, Cars 2, bolts, tangled. I imagine with the vagaries of the way animation works. Some of these are solo screenplay credits. He's got the solo screenplay credit on Tangled. He's got, well, he's one of like eight billion screenwriters on cars, which like makes sense for cars.

He co-wrote Bolt with Chris Williams. So then after Crazy Stupid Love, it feels like he's a little bit of a hot commodity screenwriting-wise. He writes the screenplay for the gills. guilt trip, the Seth Rogen, Barbara Streisand movie, the guilt trip that I've still somehow never seen. Can't wait until we do an episode on the guilt trip? We really do need to do that, I will say. Billy Ray, have you seen the guilt trip? Oh, yes. Feelings on it? It's Barbara. It's Barbara. It is Barbara. It's pretty generic. I felt,

I fell as let down as I did with, like, Monster-in-law. Oh, no. I will say I'm kind of a cheerleader for Monster-in-Law in a few ways. I get, like, it's junk food, but to me, it's, like, it's, it's very enjoyable. It's your favorite Dorito flavor. Kind of, of that, of that genre of beleaguered J-Lo rom-coms that sort of earned her this, like, terrible reputation as a bad actress, the, your wedding planners, your, um, what was that one with Alex O'Loughlin, the backup plan? Breakup plan.

Is that? Backup plan. Yeah. Of all of those movies, Monster in Law is my favorite. Um, perhaps- The best thing about it is, is it. It got Jane Fonda back into the business. That's the thing. That's the thing.

It's, if for no other reason that it's notable for that. Fogleman also wrote the screenplay for Last Vegas, a movie that I've never seen, but, like, comes up a lot in, like, trivia context, just because it's a movie that stars four Oscar winners. Four? Five Oscar winners? No, who's the non-five Oscar winners, right? Yes, because it's Michael Douglas, Robert De Niro, Morgan, Freeman, Kevin Klein, and then Mary Steenbergin is one of their love interests. Again, I have not seen the movie, so I don't know who's.

Billy Ray, have you seen it? The finest cinematic genre, three to five old guys hang out somewhere. That genre has been, like, ever expanding, it seems like. Every week I see a new old person inadventing. but this feels like the like the the best pedigreed of all of them last Vegas I think that's her and you've got john turtletob directing too and he's not the best director but certainly not a slouch it's also a catchy title whereas a lot of those movies are like going in style you know they just don't they don't have the catchy title so it looks like steenbergen's character uh is with michael douglas's character by the end of that movie. Okay, good for them. And then, yeah, he's a producer on Me and Earl and the Dying Girl, but he did not

write or direct that one. And then it was Danny Collins in 2015. He has not directed a film since life itself. Surprise. I wonder if he has anything on the old IMDB in the hopper, but

let me look really quickly. I mean, I assume that That movie probably just sapped his will to live. I mean, it's saps. The reception probably did. Yeah. No, there's nothing in the announced section of his IMDB. So he's executive producing, one of the executive producers on only murders in the building.

Although that never really feels like it is, it is sold as a Dan Fogelman joint. It doesn't really have those kind of trappings. It's such a mean-spirited show, too, in the best way, but in a way that doesn't feel like Dan Fogel. man you know i was just sitting here thinking that if i were if this were four years ago and i was writing a review for life itself and i was thinking about a headline i think my headline would be this is ugh i wonder if there was that headline because that's good if no one did that they missed out that's true that's true yeah um apparently he's a screenwriter

I don't know if that's true so he seems to have had some sort of involvement in the whenever the upcoming Indiana Jones movie Oh no The Indiana Jones movie no one wants

And I don't know Well I don't know Some of us want it They're going to kill that poor old man Making that movie That well yeah they might kill him making the movie that's fair Harrison Ford needs to just

hasn't he deserved a break just like just like just leave him alone let it fly his planes Blade Runner 2049 was great I will I cannot bemoan old Harrison Ford

of the last decade because it did give us Blade Runner 249 I'm glad he came back for that one I love that movie it also gave us I think the underrated Age of Adeline. You know what? I haven't seen it.

You're not wrong. We're all living in the Age of Adeline now, so, you know, act accordingly. I don't know. We're also living in the Age of the Jetsons, because the other day, Josephson was born, apparently. Yes. So, yeah, I don't know how we can sort of, it's tough to kind of sum up Fogelman as a, creative force because he does have these sort of two very prominent projects in life itself and this is us and then like I know there are like people who really loved

when he did like Gallivant that like completely atypical as to you know compared to the other stuff musical medieval fantasy series that ABC ran for like half a season It was pretty fun. I'd always seemed like a show that I should have watched. And then I think by the time I was going to watch it, it was like, well, it's been canceled. So I never did. He also created that show Pitch, which was the baseball series on Fox about the female, I think it was like the first woman to play in Major League Baseball. yeah yeah how do you know like an episode of um yeah i don't know he's a tough one to sort of

get a handle on because it does feel like so much of his creative life force is out there in this is us and life itself and you look at it and you're just like not for me at least i do i know a lot of people really like this is us and i don't want to negate their experience if you liked that show, I celebrate you, but not... No, I will negate, I will gladly negate their experience. There's a better show out there called Parenthood. Go watch that instead. Parenthood was great. I really, really loved it. And that was another one where I was skeptical at the beginning. It's a TV series adaptation of a movie. And I'm

always like, are we scraping the bottom of the barrel here? What's going on? and Peter Krause's character on 6 Feet Under was my least favorite by quite a large margin so I think I was holding a little bit of a lingering resentment from that with, you know, I don't want to go watch, you know, Peter Krause as the lead of anything. And, but I sort of overcame that and started watching that show towards the end of its first season.

And it really was, you know, one of the really good ones while it was on the air. I really liked that show. I think that's Jason Kato. I'm a big fan of Jason Taylor. Me too. Absolutely. Me too. I've yet to be disappointed with his work, so. Yeah. No, I think that's right.

We've talked a little bit. Billy Ray, you are not the biggest Oscar Isaac fan. This was his sort of first big post-Po Damarin, after the debut as Poe Damarin, at least. So his star level had risen quite a bit from where it had been at the sort of ex machina. What was his most known for movie before he was cast in Star Wars?

Like, what did they cast him off of, I wonder? I mean, as far as the lead? Oh, Lewin Davis. That makes sense, yeah. Yeah, and... I always forget that I like that I like Lewin Davis a lot less than a lot of people do.

A most violent year or two was another lead role, but a lot of it was smaller character stuff, like drive. ex Machina where he I go into the white space when I picture him dancing with his open shirt. I do love him in Ex Machina.

He's so, I think that's a genuinely fantastic performance. I think he should have been nominated for an Oscar for that. If X Machina could win an Oscar in the visual effects category, clearly voters were watching that movie. He should have been nominated for a supporting actor. I thought he was quite, quite good in that. Yeah, it's an interesting character, or it's an interesting arc for his career.

I'm interested to see where it goes now that he's past Star Wars, now that seemingly Moon Knight was just a one-season miniseries. And thus far, I don't think we've heard anything about him being sort of... The character dies, right? I thought I heard of... I don't know. I didn't watch it. I'm a Marvel fan in general. I was not hooked on that show, and I kind of left it alone.

But he's attached, apparently, to do a Metal Gear Solid movie. Hope that's not real. He's also apparently... I bet it is. Sorry, go ahead, Billy Ray. No, I just say, I bet it is real. I mean, if Chris Pines doing a Dungeons and Dragons movie, Oscar Isaac's going to do a Metal Gear Solid. There's also this Barry Levinson project.

And like, Barry Levinson has been sort of off the grid and if the grid is making movies that matter to anyone for a while, no shade against Barry Levinson. Unless you're Al Pacino and you're on HBO. Right. That is true. That is true. His TV stuff has still been applicable. I'm mostly thinking of stuff like I still am so mad. I saw The Humbling at my first TIF.

But anyway, he's making a movie. about the making of the godfather because apparently the offer couldn't be the only one. But Isaac's cast as Francis Ford Coppola, I don't hate that casting, honestly. Like, I can see it. That's interesting, yeah.

And Jake Gyllenhaal is playing Robert Evans. And I will say, Matthew Good is Robert Evans in The Offer was absolutely the best thing about that show by like a mile. And that feels like, we were talking on Twitter a little bit with some people today about how, I think it was with Clay, actually, about how I find movies where Jake Gyllenhaal is supposed to be playing tough guys a lot less interesting than movies where he's playing either soft or weird characters.

And like, Jake Gyllenhaal is Robert Evans piques my interest, I will say. That sounds very fun for him. I really feel like he will dig into that with zeal and zest. It's very leaven sense association with this project that... Yes, I agree. makes me do that. I want to see Jillen Hall go like Oakja Unhinged on that thing. I always want to see Jillen Hall go Oakja Unhinged.

I want to qualify this that like I want to see Oakja Unhinged. I don't really need to see any more Nightcrawler unhinged. I think we get it. Yeah. We got it. I think you and I are in agreement on Nightcrawler, Chris, that I appreciate why people liked him in that movie so much, it was... Agreed. I always thought that was a little over-hyped a little bit.

Well, he, I mean, that Crawler is one of those movies. And I haven't seen it, and probably since it first came out, but I remember when I watched it, thinking, like, this is one of those films that I never need to see again. Right. But I enjoy it. Like, there are things that I really like at it. I think Renee Russo is fabulous in it. Tremendous.

Tremendous. Yeah. But I don't need to see this again, because, you know. he's such an unlikable character. Well, I mean, if I ever watch it again, it would just be to sort of like Google-eyed stare at Riz Ahmed, who might be the most gorgeous human on the play. Riz Ahmed's great in that movie, too. I think there's a difference between Jillon Hall playing that kind of

off his rocker, unhinged thing as a lead versus a supporting role in Okja, where like, I feel like if Okja was just that character, I wouldn't be able to deal with that. And I think there's something about Nightcrawler where that performance starts to feel a little less skillful for being as centralized as it is. It also, I don't think it has, like, the depth of something like American Psycho, which I think is a fair analog to it in that, like, Nightcrawler is a movie that you kind of get everything you're going to get from it on First Blush, I think, and I'm sure that there's people who will tell me that I'm wrong, but, like, you know.

Yeah, I am inclined to agree with you for that. I would like to see Oscar Isaac go a little crazy. Or you know what? Just dance again. Just dance again, Oscar. Take on your shirt and dance. Honestly, yes. I mean, what did we think of the card counter?

I loved it. I thought he was great in that. He's incredible. Yeah. That was the first performance of his where I genuinely was like, okay, now I can kind of see it. Like that was honestly for me, that was the breakthrough performance where I was like, okay, I get what it is that makes you, you now. The card counter currently on HBO Max along with maybe nothing else by the time this air. Oh, God.

Definitely not Moonshot. We're recording this on the day that the HBO, I mean, I can say we're recording this on the day that the HBO Max news broke. And by the time this comes out, there could be several more days where that could be applicable. It could be my last episode because I could be shipped off to battle with HBO Max because they've removed, let them all talk. I might be war-bound. I mean, there's part of me that feels like they made this bed when they decided to go all in on direct-to-streaming with Warner Brothers stuff, but I don't know.

A lot of good things are becoming collateral damage to this decision, and I don't love it. Collateral damage? Is that what you said? The Arnold Schwarzenegger vehicle? Somebody pull up HBO Max. See if it's on HBO Max. From collateral beauty to collateral damage, we've run the gamut. We really, we truly have, yeah.

Chris, you wanted to talk about- The Collateral trilogy. Well, no, wait, it's collateral, collateral, damage, collateral beauty. Yes. Right, because like collateral, and then, like, collateral damage is like the Empire strikes back. It's the low point. Everybody feels defeated. Everything's dark.

And then like- Contateral beauty literally has Ewox in it. Right, exactly. Collateral beauty is hope for future. And, yes, everything. Gritty reboot the collateral. My God. Stupid.

Chris, you wanted to talk about Amazon Studios in 2018 and the year it had. So this is the first year. Amazon had gotten into the theatrical business. We've talked about it before with movies like Love and Friendship, the Great Love and Friendship. This is the first year that they started doing their own theatrical distribution. And they have since done a lot less because it didn't. very well for them. This was their first movie, I believe, that went out. This is at least the first year. Life itself is the widest Amazon Studios release ever, and it made only $4 million

total. The other movies that they released this year, also in the awards race were Beautiful Boy. I'm sure we will eventually do an episode on Beautiful Boy. Susperia, we have done an episode on Spiria and Cold War, which was like, at the end of the year, their kind of surprise awards play, because they get that director nomination for Polikowski. Probably, I will say, with the exception of Amazon's Oscar success with Manchester by the sea, Cold War is the other real feather in Amazon's cap when it comes to the Oscars. They worked hard to get that nomination, several nominations actually for Cold War, but specifically the director nomination.

I would throw the big sick in there as well. I think you're right. I think that's right. Yes, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But the Big Sick, I believe, was a partnership with Roadside, at least in terms of the theatrical release. It's with Lionsgate.

So Roadside did Manchester. Roadside was with Manchester by the city. Yes. I mean, they were very close to a Best Picture nomination with the Big Sick. Oh, yeah. But, like, people talking about. about how Amazon is not great at running Emmy campaigns outside of Maisel

but like they haven't had much Oscar success either and kind of when they some of their biggest successes are in all of their partnerships with people but I do think that Cold War performance was I wonder how much further they could have taken it if they'd had more time

it's not a movie I particularly like but well I think I would say that I think life itself, I think, is 50% of what I would call the decline of Amazon Studios like Oscar hopefulness. I would say the second part of that was the equally ill-advised the Goldfinch. Yes. Yes, which was a partnership with Warner Brothers. Yes, which was also the other film that it was like, oh, this was going to be a big Oscar movie, blah, blah, blah. Have y'all covered the goldfinch yet? Not yet. I keep pushing for it, and Chris keeps pushing us away.

I cannot watch that movie again. And I love the book. I love the book. It's a head scratcher. I didn't hate it as much as everybody hated it. I definitely don't think it's a very good movie, but I feel like there are parts of it that I like, one of which Chris takes a huge exception to. Huge exception. I do like Finn Wolfhard in that movie.

But anyway, we will talk about it in our eventual Goldfinch episode. Yeah, I think, I mean, we've talked about Amazon kind of a lot on this podcast, which is no surprise since they've got a lot of misses. They've got a, I'm trying to think of what they've got coming up next. Catherine called Bertie is playing at Tiff, which is a co-production. Probably not an awards thing, but they are doing a theatrical release. Right. I mean, there probably won't be much more Amazon now that they bought MGM and MGM not only has you know,

their output that like United Artists is doing. Right. But there's also, they've rebooted Orion, which looks to be their more like smaller awardsy movies. Like they'll be releasing Till, I believe they're releasing

women talking. So they've also got that delightful, which I actually think it is delightful, that delightful gay Harry styles movie coming out. That's what I was going to say. This is like, it seems like it could be the last officially Amazon Studios movie

which that movie just kind of looks like wallpaper to me but I'm excited to see this film I've seen this film I can say that it is much better than wallpaper okay all right much better than wallpaper that makes me I've spoken to someone else who has seen it and

I shan't speak for them and then of course this week they're dropping 13 lives Well, I wanted to mention that because, like, Chris, you mentioned the United Artists of it all. And, like, United Artists is actually having a really, like, interesting renaissance lately. Fascinating, Ron. Their lineup this year is fascinating. And even last year with, like, House of Gucci and whatnot.

And 13 Lives, though, which is a Ron Howard movie that is based on true events that was in, a, what I thought was fairly compelling documentary last year that I'm still kind of surprised did not make the Oscar nominee list. I know, Chris, you feel differently. I mean, I like the movie less, but I think the documentary, the reason why that movie wasn't nominated is because it was made by the people who had already won, and like, that branch has a history of, even if you have another successful, lauded documentary, if you won, they're not going to nominate you again.

The rescue, which was made by the people who did Free So. Low. Yeah. 13 Lives, though, it is shocking to me how little promotion I've seen for this movie and how little discussion. This movie, again, I want to get away from using the phrase doesn't exist because I think we've overused it. But, like, truly, 13 Lives is, doesn't exist to a shocking degree. Like, I was, I did not really believe in this as a Oscar prospect. I always did bring it up in the conversations just because I feel like.

Like, it's, you know, it's a Ron Howard movie. It is, it has a lot of the ingredients. Well, there were reports of it having, like, these, it had test screenings that performed, like, through the roof, like, MGM's best test screening ever or whatever. And that they moved it from a spring release to November, which, like, when that, when those reports came out, it was like, oh, we know what this means. They're going to push this movie, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. and then for them to basically fully retreat from, I believe, United Artists to Amazon and, like, basically dump it. It apparently has a theatrical release, but is also...

I'm sure it's getting some kind of theatrical release. The theatrical release was this past weekend. I mean, it's like here, and I get Amazon movies and theaters here, so... Yeah, and then it drops on the fifth. So, like, it got one week of theatrical. It played in Seattle. here in a couple of places. I, of course, didn't get out to see it in the theaters. But, I mean, I thought the same thing. This is, this is a film that's been on my radar for a while

now in terms of, like, Oscars for 2022. And then I literally was just scrolling online one day, and I saw this, there was a trailer ad for 13 lives coming August 5th, and I was like, what? Like, I mean, it's just rare that a Ron Howard film gets dropped like this. It's also not a very good trailer. I remember when I watched the trailer, and I was like, there is no forward momentum to this. Like, I don't understand what the, like, what the thrust of this trailer is. And, like, again, it's an incredibly compelling true story that has Colin Farrell and Vigo Mortensen in it, among other people. Like, you've got some ingredients in here, and I thought that trailer was just so flat to me.

Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm going to be watching it at home, but it's not going to get my movie theme. dollar dollars yeah it's supposed to be like two and a half hours long yeah that's the other thing also like maybe is part of the reason why they're not taking it to theaters but also i feel like you know and i feel like sometimes ron howard gets a little too too dumped on as a as an artist i think he's had uh more you know more high points than people are willing to give him credit for he's not the director that i would go to for something where you feel like a lot of that story

is going to depend on the kind of claustrophobic environs of, you know, this flooding cave and whatnot. I don't think... You want the green grass version of that movie. Yes, actually, that's a very good... That's a very good name to drop there. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. What else do you want to talk about here, Chris?

There's so much to get into. Amazon also had Peterloo that year and then, like, pushed it on. Didn't do anything with it. For Peterloo. Peterloo is another movie we could talk about it. Peterloo needs a reassessment because it's a good movie and it kind of got dogged on. I really liked that movie.

The rumors that it got rejected by Cannes, I think, kind of tainted that movie, whether or not that's true. But, like, it's a good movie. It's not a bad movie. It's a good movie. Yeah, I would say, I would say it's definitely not a bad movie. I don't know that I've ever seen a Mike Lee film that I do. don't enjoy frankly. Right. Right. I mean, like, even like lesser Mike Lee is better than most

of the garbage out there. And, um, you know, this was totally Cannes loss. Yeah. Well, and it's also, like, I think part of the ho-hum reception and like even the buildup to that movie is like people like talked themselves into what they thought a Mike Lee movie was and this not being it made them not want to see it, kind of? And I don't necessarily get that. Do we want to talk about the blacklist, Chris? This was a blacklist script from 2016. 2016.

What else? This seems like a blacklist. It does kind of. Like, no, again, no shade intended. The blacklist is one of those things where I think for a while there was some kind of, people treated the blacklist like a little bit of a clearinghouse. for like, well, if it was a blacklist script. And now I feel like we've all sort of settled into this, you know, realization that, like,

the blacklist runs the gamut between great movies and terrible movies and kind of everything in between. And if you look at... And sometimes by the time that the blacklist is actually published, some of the movies that are on there are already in production, too. Right. Right. But so the 2016 Blacklist is an interesting one to get into because I really do feel like, again,

you know, runs the gamut from bad edging. The Cory Finley movie script by Mike Makowski eventually ends up on HBO to many a chagrin because by the, my thing with indie movies going to TV these days, especially ones that I think are good enough to get awards pushes and that maybe 15 years ago could have gotten, say, Hugh Jackman a push and. Best Actor for Bad Education. Say, good luck to you, Leo Grand, getting a best actress push for Emma Thompson, is a lot of people are really like, well, they can win Emmys instead of Oscars, and what's the difference, and blah, blah, and they're not going to win Emmys. That doesn't ever materialize. They're not going to win Emmys because we are living in the golden age of miniseries right now, and nothing, made for TV movies can't compete with those. They're not buzzy enough. They don't exist in the popular imagination.

way that miniseries do and you looked at it you know emma thompson by the time the emmy nominations come out next year is going to be less than an afterthought and it's a shame and it's a crime because like that is a performance that deserve to get an art house platform release and then a good faith insurgent campaign at the end of the year where she either makes it and we cheer like when charlotte rambling got nominated for 45 years where she doesn't get it and we all scream bloody murder and we hiss at awards voters for like saving mr banks the thing i think part of that is because like with like

all of the blurred lines between streaming and tv what it does for an actual made for tv movie where there's not an episodic structure to it is that even even if it's subconscious people view it as well it's not good enough for it to have been in theaters and people still think of that as like some emblem of quality but at the same time these stream

streaming platforms are trying to build up a sense of quality in like, we've talked about this before, where like my thing with the searchlight Hulu thing is like, it's a branding thing. They're trying to, you know, build the Hulu brand to be like, well, quality stuff is here. Yeah, we haven't really shaken out to the new normal yet. And maybe we're just going through growing pains and we will eventually arrive at an equilibrium again, but we're not there yet. And I think there are a movie like Bad Education is one of the ones that kind of gets, you know, lost in the shuffle there. And the tale with Laura Dern.

Yes, great, great example, Billy Ray. Like, you know, HBO sold it as like when they bought it, they were like, this is a subject matter that people are going to feel more comfortable watching at home. But then when they actually released it on HBO, they didn't promote it. Yeah. And if there was ever, I mean, that would have been an easy nomination for Laura Dern. in that film. Yeah. Also, I think that's such a fallacy, too, this idea that, like, this type of story is easier to

absorb watching it at home. No, it's not, because the second you feel uncomfortable with something, you have the option of changing the channel or looking at your phone or whatever. Like, there is... Which is an easier thing to do than to leave a theater. Sometimes when I praise a movie theater, it sounds like I am praising a jail cell, but it does give, like, it does sort of lock you in there. for at least a little bit, it makes the barrier for turning away and diverting your attention

a lot higher. You either have to be a rude asshole or you have to be willing to get up out of your seat and walk out. And I think... And lose your money. And lose your money. Right. And that sense of captivity a little bit does encourage the viewer to take more chances. And I think, so I think that the exact opposite would have been true for the tale. I think an art house theater is the only place you want to debut that movie. All of this to say in summation that life itself should have just been dumped

onto the Amazon platform, rather than being their widest fucking release they've ever done. Other 2016 blacklist movies will sort of go through these a little bit quicker. Hotel Artemis, which is weird, but I'm kind of glad that I saw it,

the Jody Foster movie. I only know of that movie as the surly production photo of Jody Foster looking skeptically. Sure. I-Tanya, a big Oscar success there. So again, we're running the gamut, right? Hotel Artemis didn't come to much. I-Tanya

was a huge Oscar success. Late night, which was a big Sundance kind of moment for Mindy Kaling and aforementioned Emma Thompson. The Post, my beloved Spielberg,

movie, The Post, that I am a writer die for. That was a script by Liz Hanna and Josh Singer. Roman J. Israel Esquire, a movie. Chris, I know you and I. That is the Dan Gilroy movie that I go to bat for is Roman J. Israel Esquire.

And of course, I mean, who could forget where we all were when Free Guy finally made it from the blacklist to movie theaters. For as much as... That's the movie that broke me from being an Oscar completest.

For as much as all of the people who dumped on Tycho Waititi for Thor Love and Thunder, and I am not a fan of Thor Love and Thunder. But like, it's amazing to me that he escaped Free Guy unscathed, because he is so fucking obnoxious and Free Guy. I kind of can't take it. And I did watch that movie because I was an Oscar Completist and I had to, I'm a, I'm a loyal soldier when I do my rankings for all the Oscar movies. Well, you get paid.

I have not seen Free Guy, but I've been tempted to watch it a couple of times just for my boy, Steve Harrington. I do love him. And he's honestly, he's a charming cutie in that Joe Kiry. God love him. But yeah, not worth seeing Free Guy for his performance. I will say that. I'll just rewatch Spree. That'll tie me over.

That's actually a really fun movie. Wait, which one is Spree? Spree's the one that Joe Keri stars in. He plays this Uber driver who is, like, trying to, like, boost his social media. So he's, like, killing all these people in his Uber and, like, filming it. And, like, it's actually really good. And he's really, like, really given a great performance. Seeing the ads for that one, it reminded me a little bit of what was the Dave Franco, Emma Roberts movie?

Pulse. I really, really enjoyed that movie. That was a movie I saw in the theater. and had a very, very good time with. It made me think of Pulse. Yeah, Pulse was wild. Yeah. All right.

So that was the 2016 Blacklist. An interesting little list of movies. What else do we got, Chris? One tidbit. The day this premiered at TIF, the other premieres. This is like the most, this had Oscar Buzz Day in history, maybe. Yeah. Other titles that premiered on the same.

day at this TIF Festival. Widows, our beloved widows. Yes. I've done an episode on Widows. Ben is back. He's back. Who's that? That's Ben, and he is back. And he is back.

Backstreet's back, and so is Ben. The Frontrunner forgotten the day after it premiered the frontrunner. I keep thinking, and I keep forgetting to mention this to you, that we really do need to do the frontrunner soon. I've still not seen the frontrunner. We should do it.

year for Hugh Jackman, obviously. Yes, good point. Yes, we should. So, coming soon, the frontrunner. And the Sisters Brothers, a movie that I was like, I don't want to see this, and then I saw it, and I liked it. Nightcrawler reunion. Sisters Brothers Brothers. I love Sisters Brothers. That's one of my

probably favorite films of the last few years. It's a good movie. Yeah, I think it's a really underrated film. But yeah, all of those films premiering on the same day is sort of insane because, like you said, they were all films that had the noblest of expectations. Yep. And they all fell flat. Yep. Yeah.

Every single goddamn one of them. A kind of iffy tiff year, because this is also the year that Green Book wins. The People's Choice Award on its way to Best Picture. The thing about that TIF was, the biggest sensation there, at least in our experience, was not. not a TIF premiere. That was the Star is Born sort of coursing through everybody's veins after it premiered. It was a Venice premiere, right? Yes. Lady Gaga on the boat. Right. That's right. Of course. But that's the thing I most remember from 2018 Tiff is just like everybody could not wait to see Starsborn. And then that in Roma, but like Roma was playing I think

every day of a festival after it premiered. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. A couple of other things I'm sort of dipping into my notes here as I look at it. Obviously, we need to mention, especially for our purposes, this, for all of Dan Fogelman's sins in this movie, he does give Annette Benning a chance to, I don't know her, Natalie Portman in this movie, which, of course, Portman famously wins her Oscar for Black Swan over Annette Benning's acclaimed performance in The Kids Are All Right.

I did feel like maybe that was a little bit of catharsis for Annette that she got to say, I don't know who that is when he mentions Natalie Portman. What else, as I go through this? Unreliable narrator, hit by buses. Do we mention the buses?

I mean, I feel like we've been really negligent in discussing the buses. Listeners, take a shot. Go back. re-listen to the episode take a shot every time we mention the buses pickle your liver yeah like this guy's the guy who wrote the cars and so now he was like i want to ride about buses and i'm like well yeah that makes all the sense in the world you're upgrading next he's going to be riding about yachts then it's going to be like fucking space stations like dan fogleman knows where here's

career is oh can we talk about what i thought was the actual most objectionable uh part of the movie, which is, so young little Rodrigo grows up, becomes cute, starts dating around in New York City, starts dating, starts dating the most horrendous, objectionable,

Long Island white girl stereotype, like straw man, you know, caricature of a person in this film. And at some point, she, what we eventually find out through the worst twist in this movie, which was a twist predicated on an April Fool's joke, the lowest form of anything, as far as I'm concerned, an April Fool's joke. But before that, she says she's pregnant, she's being awful about it, it's going to ruin his life, he's sort of, it's dawning on him, how much this is going to be terrible, he's going to be anchored to this awful person, or, you know, or she's going to have to have an abortion.

and something is going to happen with this that is going to alter the course of his life forever. She's reaching that telltale street curb. She's backing into traffic, and he stops her from getting hit by a car, even though her getting killed by an oncoming bus would have been good for him. But the fact that he stops her is painted as this act of, like, true virtue and selflessness. And, like, what a good person, because he didn't allow it. this person. Earlier when I was saying there were points of the movie where I was like, where's the bus? Can we get another bus? But I'm just like, but the fact that the movie

tries to make it this like noble act that he didn't allow this terrible person, this person who was inconvenient to his life to get hit by a bus. And I'm just like, this movie is so fucked. Look, I'm a, I'm a childish idiot. So I just love the fact that her name is Sherry Dickstein. Sherry Dickstein. Oh, God. horrible caricature of a person. Oh, Sherry Dickstein, oh, Sherry Dick. Come back to the Five and Dime. Sherry Dickstein, Sherry Dickstein.

Can I also say, I don't, I'm going to compare this movie to a better movie, and it's not like this movie reminded me of it, but there are... Over the top? Not necessarily... Yes, it reminds me of over the top. No, especially watching the trailer,

I feel like there was parts of this movie that we're aspiring to, like, this movie wants in some ways what a way we go has in that kind of poetry of two self-involved, you know, people who, I don't want, I guess, like, not necessarily millennials, but you know what I mean? Sort of like self-involved young neurotic hip people looking for a way to imbue their lives with meaning or whatever. And a lot of people find a way we go very annoying. And I guess I understand it. But I really love that movie.

And away we go is the kind of movie that takes a lot of bullshittiness and still allows me to invest in it and enjoy it. And life itself would do well to reach that level of, you know, success that a way we go is. So what you're saying is is that life itself would be a lot better if Sam Mindy's had directed it. I mean, yes. Like, that is true. I know people, you know, kind of dump on San Mandi sometimes, but I think that's definitely a major. No, I think he's a great filmmaker. We'll see what we get of Empire of Light this year.

I'm excited for that movie. I just took a list of things that are said in this movie, that come out of character's mouths. God. As if these are things that are either acceptable for us as an audience to actually have to be subjected to hearing, And things that Dan Fogelman thinks are normal things that a normal person would say. Gay like Billy on the street, gay. God, I forgot about that. Homophobic. Thank you, Dan Fogelman.

An intensity usually reserved for stalkers is how a character is described. I'm Bob Dylan, you're not eat a dick. Actual line of dialogue that Dan Fulgeman thought was. smart to right i don't know if i'm equipped to be loved this much that was the big one that was the big line they thought was gonna be a normal person to say they wanted that to be the you complete me um you had me at hello like that was equipped equipped it just rolls off the tongue like it you had me at hello no catchy line from a movie is going to use the word equipped but it's also insane to say i don't know if i'm equipped to be loved this much

okay um selfishly speaking i'm so glad your parents are dead honestly at that point i stopped taking these notes and that was maybe 15 minutes in the movie jean smart kind of nails that line though i will say she kind of she serves on that listen if miss smart is going to do one thing she's going to nail a line even when it's in a bad script yeah be it a dan fogleman motion picture or a television series i do not care for it. I feel like I would be remiss not to quote a piece of dialogue that is delivered in this film. I'm going to try to do it with the most gravitas that I can. Give me a second here.

Which also features an unnecessary slur. I crave a happy life, Grandpa. I have an almost desperate craving for stability and happiness the way fat people crave chocolate or lost hikers crave rescue. I want to live a big, great. fantastical life, but I'm concerned that the tragedy that seems to follow me, the tragedy that birthed me will prevent that from ever happening. And I don't know if I can withstand another body blow like this. That's how people talk. That's how people talk. And what to slide in that. People say things like that. Way to shame some fat people in there too, Dan Fogel.

I mean. And then, and then after all that bullshit, once again, he writes himself a trap door into that, where it's like, but that's not what she really said. That's what she meant to say. What she really said was something else. It's like, stand by the courage of your horrendously overwritten convictions. Yep. That stupid scene where it's like, oh, but I'm going to do it again. Oh, but I'm going to do it again. And I'm going to do it again. And really all that these two people said to each other was like, hi, hi, hi, let's go get ice cream or whatever the fuck happens in that scene but it's all this like cleverly in your head person also and meanwhile mandy patinkin is acting the shit out of that scene to like no avail but like god bless him i wonder i have concerns if samuel l jackson

has ever understood what he was doing when he were when he were oh my god he thought he was in a chase commercial yeah i i still think he has if you were to say hey i loved what you did in life itself i have a feeling that 99% chance he'd be like, what's that? He has absolutely no idea what you mean. No, absolutely not. No clue. Right. And then you say, oh, you know, where you played yourself and his brain would probably just collapse

in on itself. He did his little bits of lines of dialogue and looked into the camera and said what's in your wallet. And Dan Fogelman said that's not in my script. My script is perfect. Say what's in the script. And he's like, cut it out? Cut it out, motherfucker. Exactly.

All right. Well, that's all I have to say about life itself. It looks like a Capital One commercial. I mean, it kind of is. Big ups to Capital One commercials. I've got a friend in a Capital One commercial right now that gets played like every, like, 50 times a day. I think it's probably like paying for the rest of his life. There are certain sporting events that I will watch where like every third ad is a Capital One ad.

Like they really do shell out for those big sporting events. So yeah, I get it. I understand. The last thing I would want to say, we've not brought. up that this whole plot is the elaborate novel, nonfiction novel,

whatever book from an author who is the grandchild of Olivia Wilde and Oscar Isaac, the child of Olivia Cook, and I forget that actress's name, I apologize. And it's just

so, like, Dan Fogelman thinks that her book is so good and it's like this book is a piece of shit it is like I don't know that that whole twist made me mad because most of the movie when like you hear her talking it's like who's this one yeah and we're supposed to care about her in like this final bit of the movie and it's like you can't introduce characters that we're supposed to have an emotional attachment to at the very end of your movie dan fogleman a lot of the reviews that I read yeah a lot of the reviews that I read yeah a lot of

the reviews that I read were dunking on the movie for imagining that decades into the future, there would still be physical bookstores that exist anywhere that anybody would be able to read an excerpt at, and I thought that was kind of funny. I mean, the real twist here would have been, the real twist would have been here is like at the end, it reveals the writer, and it's actually like VC Andrews, or Daniel Steele. Or it reveals the end of it, and she's,

actually doing her book reading on Zoom because it's happening during COVID. Yes. Right. That's the only thing this movie didn't have in it that it probably would have if it was made today was there would have been so much COVID tragedy in it. Oh, Mandy Patekin and Gene Smart would only be seen on Zoom.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Totally. Small favors. Should we move on to the IMDB game? Yeah. Oh.

Games. I like games. Joe, tell our listeners what the IMD game is. Yeah, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue, and if that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. I play this game a lot with my cinefile crew, so I am prepared. Nice.

Fantastic. We love to hear preparation in play. But Billy Ray, as our guest, you are in the position to say if you want to be a guesser or a giver first and who you're going to be guessing or giving to from, et cetera. I'll guess first. Okay. Who would you like to challenge you? Oh, um, you know what?

I feel like, I feel like today I want Joe to challenge me. All right. So then you will be giving to me and I will be giving to Joe. Perfect. All right. So, Billy Ray, we have mentioned in this podcast several times how much Chris and I really enjoyed the movie Danny Collins. That film stars the great Al Pacino. We've somehow never done Al Pacino for the IMDB game.

So. Go for it. it. Wow. Okay. Um, are they all theatrical releases? They are all theatrical releases. No television, no voice performance. Okay. Well, obviously the godfather. Correct. The godfather. I would say obviously dog day afternoon. Correct, dog day afternoon. Hmm. How many, how many wrong answers do I get? After two, yeah, after two, we give you. the years and then the clues come okay so i'll say scarface not scarface okay sirpico then serpico serpico yes serpico is there so that's three of four okay um

well now so this is a tough one so there's like three that are in my head there's once upon a time and i'm not giving you the answer right now but so there's once upon a time in hollywood but he has such a small role in that but i know people love that film what a picture There's sin of a woman, and then there's, and then there's also the one that I, the first one that I immediately jumped to is Dick Tracy, but I don't, I, I always feel like people, I love that film disproportionately more than other people. That said, so it was a really, it is a pretty popular film. I think I will say Dick Tracy. You are correct, it is Dick Tracy. Well done. I'll take that. I'll take that. Hey, good. Hey, good job, IMDB. I also love Dick Tracy, and when I pulled this up, I was like, I wonder if he'll get caught up on Dick Tracy. I'm kind of surprised that Godfather 2 is not there, just because that feels like the one that is... It's the franchise thing. Yeah. Also, send of a woman, because, again, IMDB does tend to honor Oscar success, but that is a strong IMDB for for Pacino. I've never seen Serpico. That's always been on my

list of movies that I need to see at some point Dick Tracy I always incorrectly remember as his other nomination the year that he won and it's not it's Glenn Gary Glenn Ross which he's also great in

but like Dick Tracy was I think the year before and it's like that's at the point where overdue Al Pacino was with Oscar that they almost gave him an Oscar for Dick Tracy there was actually Peschi won pretty much all of the precursors that year, and still there were people

being like, I think Pachino might win it because it's the career, you know, the career achievement. And that was, yeah, two years. He was probably second place. I feel like he won a Critics Award or something for that movie. I mean, he's so much fun in that movie. Like, honestly, he's, he's a trip. He's insanely good in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then in 92, when you mentioned, he's nominated for both son of a woman and Glenn Gary Glenn Ross. There were people who were like, that was back when, like, the received wisdom was, if you get nominated in both categories, you usually win and supporting because that was like the Jessica Lang thing. And I can't remember who else was the example of that. But a lot of people thought, well, they'll give it to Denzel and best actor. And then Pacino will win for Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. Which as much as a lot of people kind of dump on scent of a woman, even though I think that makes perfect sense as an Oscar winning performance. performance. It's so huge, but it's like, it really is just like Pacino going full Pacino. It would be weird if his Oscar was for Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, even though I think that's a good performance. Right? Probably a movie people talk about even less than Dick Tracy. Well, even when you do, though, like, he's not the, he's not in the top three of things I think of when I think of Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. Do you know what I mean? No, my brain. Or frankly, Dick Tracy, and Dick Tracy rules.

When I think of Glingery, Glyn Ross, the only thing I think of is Jack Lemon, who is giving like a God-level performance. Lemon's so good. I mean, when did the man not give a God-level performance? He is so good in that. Yeah, he is. And still, even now, it's like, it's just kinetic to watch him. And he inspired one of my favorite Side Simpsons characters, which is Gil.

Yeah. Good old Gil. Got that hot plate. All right. So Billy Ray, you are going to quiz. Chris. Okay, Chris. So the actor I'm quizzing you with was also in the beloved Danny Collins.

Jennifer Gardner. Oh, okay. How much TV? One. Alias. Correct. The question is, do I think Daredevil is there or do I think Electra is there? So I'm going to sandwich that for a minute.

And I'm going to say, Juno? Correct. Should have been nominated for an Oscar. Probably should have won the Oscar for that. She's that good. The whole hi-baby moment is just like, it's a beautiful steak. What a meal.

Okay. I'm going to guess that it's Electra. Incorrect. Okay. Daredevil. Correct. Okay. So I have one more, and I also have another wrong answer.

It's not that movie Butter, but I'm trying to think of lead roles that she's had. I don't think Catch and Release is there. Oh, is it 13 going on 30? It is. There we go. Boom. It's funny that you got to Butter and Catch and Release before you thought of 13 going on TV. I am who I am, Joe Reed.

Let me be. Also, if you. you've picked somebody from Danny Collins to give to me, I am going to hoot and holler. I wish I had. I wish I had. I went, uh, being myself, being the person that I am, I went a more convoluted route. Um, I was thinking a lot about Annette Benning in this movie and how she plays a psychiatrist. And I wondered if Annette Benning has ever had a psychiatrist in another movie, we have covered that movie. It was running with scissors. Her psychiatrist was played by Brian Cox.

Oh, okay. Brian Cox. One television. One television. It's got to be succession. Yes. Okay. I wish that I could do an impersonation of Shiv going, well, would you have the

super majority and that he just like gibberishes back at her? Well, no, because you need a super majority. No, because I mean the super majority. What a fantastic episode of television. I hope he was the Emmy. I do, too. I think Jeremy Strong is a very, very good actor, and I'm glad he won the Emmy two years ago, but I do want Brian Cox to have an Emmy for that role. I mean, the finest performance on television in the past season is Matthew McFadion in succession, but different category.

Yeah. Although if Kieran Culkin wins, I will not be sad because Kieran Culkin rules on that show. Anyway, all right, Brian Cox. The thing about Brian Cox with IMDB game is it's a lot of supporting roles. around the same level of prominence. And it's really hard to sift through and pick them. Which is why I'm going to go out on a limb and say that his one big acclaimed lead role that got like precursor awards, even though it's very small, is on there.

So I'm going to guess L-I-E. A movie I haven't seen, but no, it's incorrect. I mean, it's not a fun movie because it is about a pedophile, but he's very good in it. um baby paul dano yeah baby paul dano's right um okay so not lae all right so where are we going with brian cox then we are going for huh x2 x men united correct correct the best x men movie um what else do we I don't disagree. I don't disagree with that statement. Can we talk about how the poster for X2 on, that IMDB uses at least, doesn't have the title X2 in it, but this movie apparently came out on May or June 2nd, and the two from the date is in the middle of the X.

Well, that title got changed late in the game. Like, that was called, it was X-Men 2, and then it was just X-2, and the X-Men United part didn't get added to it until, like, very soon before it got released, as far as I remember. My favorite X-Men movie, X-Men United States of Terror. Or Leland. Tony Collette plays all the X-Men. Yes, that's... All right.

So I have two. Two movies, only one wrong guess. Okay. I'm just going to guess it because I love his performance in it so much, even though he's barely in it. Adaptation. Adaptation is correct. I partly picked this because I knew it would make you... Fuck, yes, he's so good.

He's just got one scene in that movie. Just fucking barking. Oh, my God, he's so good. God help you if you put voiceover in narration. He really could have yelled at Dan Fogelman, honestly. I mean, that's what Dan Fogelman needed. He needed Robert McKee's screenwrap. He sure did.

God, Dan Fogelman, tell us you haven't seen adaptation without telling us you haven't seen adaptation. All right. Last guess, I'm going to say 25th hour. Incorrect, though. That's a great guess and a great Brian Cox performance. Again, the fact that within the span of like two years, he was in 25th hour adaptation, X-Men United, The Ring, all within like 18 months of each other, even maybe less than that, is tremendous. What a run. What a run of great supporting performances.

You're missing one film in that run. Wait. And it's from the year 2004. Troy? Troy? That's insane. As Agamemnon in Troy. Wait, what's the one from that run I'm missing, Billy Ray?

That's what I... Oh, that was the one? Okay. A movie that Brian Cox has fully just cast in because he's like a bear. Like, why is he Agamemnon? Brian Cox and Brendan Gleason playing Big Gruff Mean Brothers in that movie is actually kind of amazing casting. There should be several movies where they play Big Gruff Mean Brothers.

That movie is cast pretty well, actually, because Brad Pitt, I think, is pretty perfectly cast, and Orlando Bloom is also perfectly cast. I think that's not a good movie, but, like, I would watch it if it was on TV right now. I fuck with Troy. I would watch Troy. It's a shame that, I mean, I would have expected maybe even Zodiac to make an appearance. He's also phenomenal in that movie. Yeah. But my, the one I love him in is the movie Red, where he actually has a lead role. It's the Lucky McKee movie with him and Tom Seismore. Oh, I've never seen. Yeah, they kill his dog. And he, goes apeshit.

And it's actually, I think it's actually a really, really good performance from him and a really cool movie. He's great. I love Brian Cox. God. He really is. Chris, the day that I informed you that Brian Cox was doing voiceover for McDonald's commercials and had been doing so for like two years and it was the first year ever.

I heard it for the first time. And his off-key, but-a-ba-ba-ba-ba is. It's iconic. Fuel that makes me get up. It's genuinely iconic. Brian Cox just talking about like... Six days of the week, when you steal a fry from your friend, they can say, hey, I paid for those. But on Free Fries Friday, they can't.

Free Frize Friday at McDonald's. Quarter pounder with cheese and like McNuggets or whatever, in the most disinterested tone, it's fantastic. He's the opposite. He's the antithesis of Bing Rames in the Arby's commercials. He was so excited. We have the meat. It's true. And Brian Cox is like, I don't give a shit if we have the meat.

It's great. Fantastic. All right. I think that is our episode. Billy Ray, this was a joy. Thank you so much for joining us. It was a treat. It was a treat.

Thank you for dealing with my internet issues. Oh, of course. I mean, we've had them ourselves. We have. If you want more this had Oscar about us, you can check out the Tumblr at this. head oscarbuzz.tottumbler.com. You should also follow us on Twitter and ad underscore Oscar underscore buzz.

Billy Ray, tell our listeners where they can find more of you if you wish to be found. Sure. I'm all over the socials at Billy Ray Bruton, or you can find me at Incinerator Pod, and you'll figure out something that I'm doing if you go to one of those places. And Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? Sure, Twitter and letterboxed, both at Joe Reed.

Reed spelled R-E-I-D. And I am also on Twitter, and letterbox at Chris Fee file. That's F.E. I.L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Medius for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So write us a nice review to make us feel your love. That's all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye.

blowing on your face and the whole world is all the keys I would offer you a warm embrace to make you feel my love when the evening shadows and the stars appear and there's no one there to dry your tears I could hold you for a million years to make you feel my love