This Had Oscar Buzz - 220 – The Lost City of Z (with Katey Rich)

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

It wouldn’t be Thanksgiving without a little tradition, so naturally Vanity Fair’s Katey Rich makes her annual return to us this week to discuss James Gray’s The Lost City of Z. The film had a long pre-production history, including promises of Brad Pitt in the lead, that long positioned it as the film that might … Continue reading "220 – The Lost City of Z (with Katey Rich)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. You strongly advise you to abort the mission. It's become far too dangerous. We must turn back. There is no turning back.

I stay here and struggle to provide for the children while you wander the jungle. You don't care about us? You don't even care about going home. I only care about your lost city. This search for Zed, I can no longer bear the cost. Hello, and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast constantly asking, where's Derinda? Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy.

I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my hidden treasure, Chris File. Hello, Chris. Oh, thank you. the garris are swarming this episode like a bunch of piranhas ready to I don't know tell us that we spoiled some movie that is coming out for them listen it's fine Chris are you ready to pronounce the final letter of the alphabet the way that crown loyalists do the queen's English the Queen's English indeed the Lost City of Zed I feel I grew a sizable beard for this episode I will be speaking only in Mumble. Perfect. Perfect tribute to Robert Pattinson, which we'll get into.

I want to introduce our guests before we get into anything, any material conversation about this movie, because she's the reason why we're talking about this movie. We have a four-time guest, Chris, on this episode. A Thanksgiving tradition like no other. This episode is coming out in Thanksgiving Week. She is the awards editor at Vanity Fair. She is the co-host of the Little Goldman podcast, our great friend, who I saw La City of Zed with way, way, way back in 20, I think we did see it in 2017. 2017, for sure.

Yeah. Katie Rich, welcome back to this. Hi. Hi. I should have said fighting in the war room because any time that any of us go on other podcasts, like David, or like is notorious for going on blank check and never mentioning that he has his own podcast. So I am not making that mistake because we are on the fighting in the war room network. So like really that's my shame as well. So, truly.

No homerism here. We love all of you over there. So Katie. Thanksgiving tradition. Unlike any other. I knew that if I made that reference, Joe Reed, Sportsy would understand. It's a master's reference. I get it.

Yeah. Thanksgiving. Everyone thinks of Thanksgiving and think of the master's obviously. Absolutely. 100%. Your fourth film. It wouldn't be Thanksgiving if people weren't fighting. though. That's true.

Wait a minute. I have a bone to pick. Is this just like secret stealth, like us as friends getting together? But like Joe and Katie being like, yeah, but we saw this movie. Well, here's the thing. What's funny is Katie and I saw this movie together and we also saw James Gray's new movie Armageddon Time together. We did.

I did not put that together. Yeah. We're James Gray friends now. Yeah. Yeah. Who did I see The Immigrant with? I don't have the first clue. Well, I miss because I miss Tiff the story.

year I missed my chance to see movies with Chris File as God intended. So we have to wait one more year. Toronto next year. Yep. How does The Lost City of Zed compare, Katie, to Pan or About Time or Money Monster? And Lord knows I love About Time, but I know that, like, this movie probably ranks quite a bit above those three for you. Yeah, I love going back over that.

Like, I chose Pan because it's a movie that I wanted to come and defend, and I feel like I couldn't quite defend the way that I thought it would. And then about time was kind of like, let's come in and fight about it. Money Monster was a real curveball, which I enjoyed immensely. But, yeah, Lossity of Z, which I'm going to have to get used to. I mean, I think it honestly happened because of your diabolical quiz, and I'm sure that we'll get to, where you're thinking about the interchangeable hunks of the mid-20s and you get to Charlie Hunnam really fast. Well, we did, yeah. Our podcast relationship started off with a bang with the Charlie Hunham or Garrett Headland quiz.

So it does feel a little bit full circle that we're back to Charlie. I know. We got to, yeah, we have a cycle to break for next year's Thanksgiving, I guess. For a lot of people. For a lot of people. For a lot of people. Right now. It's a good one.

Yeah, this, yeah, the Easter eggs really run deep on that. Yeah, La City of Zed looms very large. It's because, like, I knew that I had seen a movie at Bam with you, Joe. But this movie, and I'm sure we'll talk about it more, came out when my older son was about eight months old. And so all of my memories from that period are fuzzy to non-existent. And it's right before I left New York, which is like a whole other. set of things. So it's been a very specific touchstone in my memory for all of those things. And I had watched some of it in bits. It's on prime video, which I assume is how we all watched it. So it's very easy to just kind of pick back up. So I had watched in pieces, but I had not like sat down and watched it again since then. You know, it deserves its large looming place in my mind. So I'm really glad I got to go back to it. This movie being a 2017 movie and in some of the research, I sort of came across other 2017 movies. And I was reminded of Wonder Woman, which is another. movie that we saw together, which was like the last movie I saw with you before you moved away.

No, I had already moved because that was a fall movie. Yeah. No, it was, it was early summer. I had moved and I had came back really quickly after. Yeah. That's what it was. And I had just like, I hadn't even had time to miss you yet. And you were already back.

Yeah, and I was already back. I came back for David Ehrlich's wedding, mentioning him twice in a single podcast. Right. Yeah. And then we probably waited until good old Armageddon time. Or no, tar. We saw tar together. Yes.

What a time. Well, also, we did see, like, a sprinkling of TIF movies in between. Yes, that's true. You guys saw Nightmare Alley together, right? Yeah. I remember the group chat that night, and I was like, they got to see this movie. That was, you know, I was never a big baby about seeing a movie with a mask on,

but Nightmare Alley was a real time where I was like, I cannot wait to leave this room and claw this mask off my face. Like, I want to just die rather than sit in this aisle another second. And I have had, like, universally good experiences with the good people. at Film Society of Lincoln Center and the people who run the New York Film Festival, whoever was running the security check-in line at the Nightmare Alley screening hated me and was giving me such a hard time about like, did I get, like, one person had already scanned me and sent me through, and then I started moving, and he hadn't seen me go through.

So he was like, you got to come here. And I'm like, but she already got me. And I started like raising my voice with this person in front of like people in tuxedos. It was a very, very strange. Very, very strange. And then the movie you were doing it all for was Nightmare Alley. For Nightmare Alley, which I did not care for. So, yeah.

I mean, who would expect a Kirsty Alley biopic to be any good? Speaking of the good people of Film Society of Lincoln Center, we're talking about a New York Film Festival world premiere. It's true. Yes, 2016. The era of New York Film Festival world premieres that has passed now, they don't really seem to care about getting the world premieres as much. Although I will say this year's New York Film Festival was like pretty stacked, but you're

right, like without having to sort of worry about what was going to be a premiere or not, they still got, you know, movies that I wasn't able to see at Toronto. They still got, you know, like white noise and Armageddon Time. Well, they had she said until. Those were their two big explosives. Yes. Yes. But I still have yet to see. Their opening night, centerpiece, and closing night were all from other festivals, which is, yeah, but as what you were saying, Chris, that they don't seem to care as much about having exclusive. But the thing that I was trying to figure out looking into this episode was like, it was closing night at New York Film Festival. When that was announced, did we know it was already going to be a spring movie?

Like, it sort of seemed like we did. It didn't have distribution when it was announced because I don't think Amazon picked this movie up until it was either right before. it premiered or right after it premiered. Huh, okay. Yeah. So, like, at that point, it seems like it's unlikely that it's going to be in the fall. Well, and I think also... Before New York.

It was also one of those movies where you saw it and you were like, this is going to take some, like, some work to get people. Because, like, it's a movie that's like, I think it's very good. Katie, I know you love it. Chris, I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on it as well. but like I think even with the people who love it there was a recognition that like this is the thinker you know what I mean this is going to this is going to be one that maybe you have to really work with a little bit and it didn't really have people sort of streaming out with like very concise uh you know ways to sum up the movie in its appeal and how it would appeal to someone like an Oscar voter which is a classic James Gray problem as I'm sure we'll talk about yeah right well Well, I mean, it also is one of those like pre-production Oscar-Buzz type of movies that we've talked about before in the past because obviously Brad Pitt was originally attached to this movie for quite some time before it was ultimately Charlie Hunnam, who I will get into it. I think he's fantastic in this movie.

This was the first movie after, this was the first James Gray movie since Little Odessa that didn't have Joaquin Phoenix Phoenix. as it's star. So this was sort of like a step outside of that comfort zone for him as well. Do you think there was, was Joaquin ever supposed to star in this? I cannot imagine that movie. So maybe James Gray knew well enough that that was not a good idea. Well, part of me was like, maybe like James had some hard feelings about what happened

on the two lovers press tour, but then he like cast him as the lead in the immigrant, which happened a good deal later than all of that. So like, if there were hard feelings, they did not affect that movie's casting. Tell the gary's about the two lovers press tour because that is only even a vague thing in my mind. Oh my God. Are we doing this detour already? Let's do this.

Let's do this detour already. This is the I'm still here, Joaquin Phoenix rack career press tour. Okay, yeah. So you, one little piece of information. I thought you meant there was like drama between them specifically. I think the whole time that was unfolding, everyone kept looking at James Gray to be like,

what the fuck is going on? He's hijacking your movies. So I've never seen the documentary I'm still here, but I am in it as far as I know because I was doing roundtable interviews for two lovers when that movie came out and Joaquin Phoenix was there and Casey Affleck was there with the camera filming the whole damn thing and then like interviewed us afterwards about like why do you feel like this is a joke like why don't you believe in this career is happening and I like Casey Affleck now and it took a long time I held it and like many people don't and I don't know why I do maybe that's a whole sidebar but anyway yeah so never saw the movie but love two lovers the whole idea of that movie of I'm still here really there was nothing

in that premise that made me want to and like I took a long time to like Joaquin Phoenix like it was generally like come on come on

was kind of a sea change for me although I also went back and I watched Gladiator and he was the thing that I liked best about watching Gladiator back again he's really good in Gladiator But he's somebody who I always found very self-indulgent, very self-serious, the whole thing about, like, you know, anybody who gets on a high horse about like awards or bullshit and whatever, and then yet shows up to every single award show or whatever, like, I'm always going to be a little bit annoyed. He always felt very hammy to me. I didn't really like him in The Master and all this sort of stuff. So, like, the prospect of I'm still here was like, oh, this is all the worst things about this self-indulgent action.

actor. I just have absolutely no. And the idea that also, and like, I wasn't, I didn't really get James Gray, maybe until this movie, too. There's still a lot of movies that I haven't seen, but like, the yards. I was like, okay, whatever. But I still felt very bad for James Gray, but, like, he's got this movie. He obviously put a lot of effort to it into it. His movies need all of the promotional help that they can get because they struggle to find audiences beyond sort of like this small band of very loyal critics who really love him. And to have that press tour sort of hijacked in this really sort of like look at me kind of way.

Look at me, but not about the movie entirely. Yep. That really turned me off in general. Yeah. Not to delve too deep into my past as a journalist in New York who was doing press days all the time, but one of the first like big interviews I ever did was with James Gray because I was working at this magazine called Film Journal International, which is for film distributors, so it's sent to movie theater owners.

And so they would do cover stories and they would get great access because they had this direct line to distributors. And so we did a cover story on We Own the Night, which I think came out in 2007. Someone can fact check me on this. And so I go and watch We Own the Night in a like screening room in the Sony screening room all by myself. And then immediately after get on the phone with James Gray in like a Sony Publiss's office. And I was 24. I had like no business doing what I was doing. And he was so nice to me and so lovely to talk to.

And I think that made me a fan forever. And I think his movies are great too. But, like, it was such a good experience for someone who knew nothing that I have, I have treasured it. I had that same experience with David Lowry, where, and of course, like, I didn't really start interviewing people as part of my job until, like, well later. So it's not like I was like this, like, young inexperienced person. I was inexperienced with the job of, like, interviewing, you know, people. Well, you were a sensible adult, which gave you an advantage of me. I was a sensible adult.

And I did. It's not like I, you know, I love. liked David Lowry's movies up until that point anyway, but he was so lovely to talk to. Would you interview him for? For, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, Redford, Redford. Pete's Dragon. Oh, Pete's Dragon. Oh, um.

Oh, oh, the old man in the gun. Oh, man in the gun. Thank you. Oh, great movie. Great movie. That's, that would be a good one for this show. And he was just like, he was really friendly. He knew, because of course, the whole objective of that interview was, Redford had said

the thing about how this was my last movie. and then wouldn't talk about it. And he knew, David Lowry knew, that I needed to ask about that. And I think a lot of other directors would get sort of sniffy about that and whatever and just be like, you know, sort of Stonewall in a very kind of perturbed way. And I think he knew that I needed to ask that question. And he knew that he wasn't going to be able to give, you know, a juicy answer. But he still was able to sort of like talk about it in a way that like was going to give me some. something to write about and he was also just like a really cool guy so like i i totally know what

that experience is like like it really does earn you uh earn that person like a good deal of leeway that's the payola they don't talk about among right you just like if you're nice to us that's all we need to succeed it's true like just treat us like people and we'll root for you forever yeah exactly exactly so we're probably farther along into this episode than we think so we should Do the fans like the digressions? Like, are we not? God, I hope so. I don't know why they're so listening if they want us to stick on a clear.

That's true. What a horrible realization if I found out that they hated the digressions. My God. They're skipping, skipping, skipping. It's that one Simpsons episode where Mo wants to clean up the bar and Carl's like, but Mo, the dank, you're not going to get rid of the dank, are you? That's how I feel about the diversions. All right.

So we should probably do the 60-second plot description at this point, and then it'll allow us to get into the meat and potatoes of this movie, which we like. So, Katie, have you come prepared? No, I totally forgot. This was my job until we were already recording. Very good. I feel like I can do it, though. All right. We're going to be talking about the Lost City of Zed, directed and written by James Gray, starring Charlie Hunnam, not Garrett Headland.

Sienna Miller, not anyone else, Robert Pattinson, Tom Holland, Angus McFadden, Edward Ashley, Ian McDermid, is how I'm going to choose to pronounce that person's name who's been in the most popular movies of all time, and I still don't quite know how to pronounce his last name. Forgive me, your emperorship. Clive Francis, Pedro Coelho, Harry Melling, who shows up as the priciest little shit you've ever seen. What a thrill that was, realizing that was Harry Melling. I, like, looked it up, because I couldn't remember his name and I was like, he was in Buster Scruggs. Yep. Who was in, like, I went down that rabbit hole and I was very satisfied. Yep. Really fantastic.

All right. Premiered at the New York Film Festival on October 15th, 2016, then was released in limited release way, way later on April 14th, 2017, at which point, Katie and I saw it at BAM and not too many other people saw it, unfortunately. Katie, I have my stopwatch at the ready. would you like to take a crack at a 60-second plot description of the two-hour-and-twenty-something minutes, last city of Z. Decades spanning. I will do my best. All right. And begin. Okay, Percy Fawcett is this medium-level British aristocrat. It's the beginning of the 20th century. His father has sullied the family name. He wants to be an explorer.

And his wife, Nina, played the ICNA Miller, supports him. So he's sent off to Bolivia where there's a bunch of rubber plantations to draw maps. And he's assisted by Koston, played by Robert Pattinson. But what they discover over the course of the map, in the Bolivian jungle is what might be a city. He discovers pottery, but then there's a jaguar, so they have to leave. He comes back to England, and he's trying to convince people that there's an advanced civilization in the Amazon. Nobody wants to believe him, but there's this one guy who's got a lot of money to fund the trip. So they go back to Bolivia with this guy who sucks at it and ruins their whole trip, and they never make it there. So he comes back home, again, pissed off.

He's going to go back. But then World War I breaks out, so he goes to war, gets blinded, comes back, is dreaming of going back to Amazonia. So he gets it together to go one more time with his teenage-ish. son, played by Tom Holland, who he drags into the jungle. They try to find Zed, and they are dragged off by some natives. Maybe we don't know what really happened. And then Sienna Miller walks off into a jungle because that's where her heart will be forever because her sudden husband are there.

Boom, 59.9. Katie Rich mailed it. Which major characters did I leave out? It's a great ending. Let's talk about that first. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's a really great ending.

We can talk about the ending first? Let's do it. Let's talk about the ending first. That's where you left us. the best work Sienna Miller's ever done in her entire career Agreed I will say

She's so good in this movie And just a really haunting way of Like you said Like just walking off into the jungle Because she won't be able to She won't be able to leave that behind She's at a point where she feels She's been convinced

Or maybe she's convincing herself That somebody had news from the Amazon That they saw Her husband and son living with the natives there, and he gave this person the stopwatch that he told the Geographic Society person, whose name I can't remember, not important, that if he sent this watch back, that means that he found the city he was looking for, and maybe has decided not to return. And so this is the little shred of hope that she's going to hold on to that allows her to

believe that her husband and her son are alive. And it's so, so, so good. And in a movie that's so much about sort of holding this vision of something in your head that you are striving for and that is sort of keeping you giving your life this purpose, that it's a great note to leave on. The sort of the benefits of that and also the hell of that sort of at the same time, Right. The delusion. Yeah. Yeah.

And like the movie hasn't, it's been very realistic for most of the movie, but right before that you get kind of Percy and his son like hiding off to their desk and he imagines himself like sitting in the corner of a dark room where it was like the, you know, christening party for his son or whatever. But you're still not prepared for that complete jump into fantasy of her walking away. Yeah. And as I said, I saw this when my oldest child was so young. And I immediately clocked it then as being like, this is what motherhood is.

is where you are where your child is no matter what. Like you were going to be walking into that jungle. And like the fact that I collected then when I had like a baby as opposed like a child who like goes to school every day

is kind of amazing. But it's still just hit so hard. It's incredible like. Yeah. And James Gray does this. I was talking to Jordan Hoffman. Has Jordan been on this show already? He hasn't.

We've got to get him on this. No, you got to get him on this. But we were talking about Armageddon time and how James Gray movies often end with just this knockout shot. Like the end of the immigrant is really famous. And Armaged Time.

has like a pretty good one. But I don't think anything tops this movie for like final image. Well, and also like for a movie that could very, like for a story that could very easily have been, even in a very good version of it, been about this sort of male experience of obsession and striving for glory and, you know, sort of making a name for. for yourself among your peers and whatnot, and yet to not only make a space for the wife character, who very easily could have been this, you know, throwaway role, not to just make space for it, but for by the end to have her sort of unlock this perspective on the

way it ends is pretty cool, I feel like. Good writing. It's not even like she's like the, oh, well, you know, women, they had minds of their own back then, too. And she's not this, like, anachronistic, like, I'm a woman in charge. She's not a very good aeronaut. Is that what you're saying? She's not a very...

That is movie I still haven't seen, but I'm guessing that's the vibe. Because, like, she's very aware of what the world is. Like, she knows what her job is. It's not like she's being like, I don't get... It's not fair that I can't come, but she has this one moment where she's like, I think I could come. She, like, says it in this, like, total quiet with her husband. And he has just been talking about how, like, well, we could be enlightened and see how there could be a society in the jungle, but he cannot be that enlightened.

He's not capable of it. And it just says so much. And her personality is so vivid throughout the entire thing, where you do want to, like, root for her to succeed, but she doesn't think it'll happen. And you don't think it will, but that's not the point. It's like just her being a person, not like what she can accomplish within the society. Yeah. This is a movie where I think it's coming at a really interesting crossroads for almost all of its cast, right?

This was kind of the first movie for a lot of people where they saw it and were like, oh, Charlie Hunnam's actually good. And which is interesting because for me, I was always coming from it as somebody who had watched the Judd-Apato series Undeclared on TV for one season. And he's actually really funny on that show. And they've never really, his career has never asked him to be funny again. but for a while there it was just like just be handsome and like undeclared also asked him to be handsome so like they were really you know he was walking at chewing up at the same time um but i think for a while he was sort of i mean that's why we played the hymbo game right where like he was chalked up as just this pretty face who you would throw into a movie and not really give a whole lot of interesting things to do and then as a result people were like well he sucks and i feel like this movie for the people who bothered to see it and who appreciated it, it felt like a

come around moment for a lot of people. Yeah, I really didn't know that much about him before. I haven't honestly seen that much he's done since then. He was in the original British queerest folk is the other thing. Yeah, that in terms of an anarchy I knew were like the things that people knew him from. I guess

I'm looking at his I ADB, which you told us not to, which I'm curious about why. Well, we've already done Hanam. I need, I need, I need, I need, some of this. But yeah, he's in Pacific Rim, which I know I saw. I don't remember. Yeah. Is he the lead in Pacific Rim? He is. Like the non-Andress Elba lead? He's. Him and

Rinko Kikuchi are like co- whatever Kyjujokies. Well, I don't think anyone's that good in Pacific Rim. So like, again, it's like not his fault. But also, I forgot he was in the true history of the Kelly Gang, which was another movie that would be really fun to talk about on the show

in terms of its cast. And I don't remember him being in it, but I think he's better in it than a lot of other things. He shows up, he's a villain, right? Chris, am I wrong? Is he a villain? His character name is Sergeant O'Neill, so I'm guessing he's one of the British guys. I feel like, I don't remember much of that movie. That's not Nicholas Holt. I think George Mackay has to, like, kill him at some point. But, like, don't quote him on it. Yeah, he seems like he would be, yeah. Because it's all, like, rebel Australians against the British. Like, why

would he be a good guy in that movie? Right. But he also, he did the two Deltora movies in a row, because it was Pacific Rim, and then he's also in Crimson Peak, which like. Right. Which is a nothing role. He's not bad in it, but, like, everybody in Crimson Peak is at an 11, and he's at, like, a sensible eight. And, like... He is tasked with being at a sensible, like, five. Right. And, meanwhile, like, Jessica Chastain is just, like, spinning off into space.

Giving full black narcissists. Love that movie. And then even after Lost City of Zed, he's in, like, King Arthur Legend of the Sword, which is, like, never going to do anything for anybody. Nobody saw the Papillon remake that he did. with, wasn't Garrett Headland also in that? Am I crazy? Can they do that? Oh, no, but it's Romi Malik is the other guy and the popular remake.

Like immediately pre-Oskar Romantic. Oh, you know what? It's a million little pieces that it's him and Aaron Taylor Johnson both in that same movie. That's what it was, which again, nobody saw this. That movie was fully at a TIF that we were all at, and no one saw it. No, no one saw it there. He's on an Apple TV Plus series right now called Shantaram. Here's the thing.

You could say that phrase he or she is on an Apple TV plus series right now about anybody. And I'd have to believe you because. Latvia Spencer is on a multi-season episode. And she plays a podcaster. Yes. She plays a podcaster. It's like murder she wrote with podcasting. She's like a podcaster like crime solver.

We should be watching this. I should be because Kate Hudson is in the first season of that show. So, like, I absolutely should be watching that show. The Charlie Henning Show seems less promising. Yes, it does. It sure does. But, yeah, he's, you know, starred on a TV show in this year of 2022, and here we are not watching it. And he's filming a Zach Snyder movie right now, which...

Okay. You know what? God bless. I really did not care for Army of the Dead. And so I'm... This is a... This takes place in space. It's called Rebel Moon.

it's him and Sophia Butella who I at least hope they'll let dance again because that's basically the only time I find Sophia Betella intriguing is in something like Climax where she's dancing. We are a Sophia Butella Stan podcast. Wow, I did not know that's about this podcast.

Chris is a Sophia Boutel stand. I am a first 25 minutes of climax stand more than anything. Well, Joe, Jenna Malone is in that movie, so speaking of stands, you must. You have I must. I must. That's actually that's a good cast. Corey Stoll's in that movie. Jaime Hansu's in that movie. Why not?

Yeah, sure. Anthony Hopkins as the voice of a sentient battle robot, as I'm reading here on Wikipedia, which like, honestly, that's where we're at with Anthony Hopkins right now. Can I make a real leap back into our previous conversation, speaking of digressions? Do you know what I wanted to float this theory?

Do you think that you came around on Joaquin Phoenix because he was stuck announcing Anthony Hopkins as the winner of best actor? And we all felt for him in that moment. because there was no winning and we're like, you know what, Lachene, fine.

You had to get out of there. I think I had come around by then. I also, I will say, I kind of low-key, for as much as I hated Joker, I kind of low-key liked his Oscar speech. I thought it was a pretty good Oscar speech. He doesn't want you to eat meat, Joe.

What else does he need to say? A mother in her calf. That's right. Okay, fine. Maybe I didn't love the Oscars speech that much. You're reminding me of things that I'd like rolled my eyes at. I thought she were going to say, as much as I hated Joker, I'm excited for Joker, Joker, but did you? I mean, of course, like, you can't not be intrigued. Chris is not intrigued.

You can't even, like, I don't know if it's going to be good. Chris wants to hibernate for a full year. Oh, I will, I will see. Folia d. Yeah, I am, I'm into it. I'm sorry. I am but a human. I can only, I can only take so much external stimuli before.

Where Lady Gaga goes, I will follow. I call it Zet, the ultimate piece of the human puzzle. Hey, Garies, we are once again taking a break from our weekly episode to talk to you about the Vulture Movie Fantasy League, which at this point, by the time you are reading this, the doors have been locked, the bar has been lowered. Joe's standing in front of the camera with a microphone giving you the update. I'm standing in the background with one of those spinning cardboard things. that just says update, update, update, update in Flushing Lane. Yes. Yes. So we hope you've all gotten your roster set and that we are all in for the ride for the rest of Oscar season. But because now, rosters are set, we can share with you what our rosters are, which is very exciting. I've been very excited to talk about this on

the podcast. Chris, you shared your roster with me when you made it weeks ago. And I, you know, know, looked at it and assessed it, but I didn't memorize it. So why don't you refresh my memory and, of course, illuminate our listeners. All right. My, obviously winning roster, because what's the point of competition if you're not going to talk trash? My winning roster. Yes. Is the banshees of Inneshaeran? Yes. Tar. Bardo, Till, corsage, the inspection, Saint-Omer, and Fire of Love. I think this is a really good roster. I think there are Oscar possibilities in pretty much all of these in some category or another.

And you stayed pretty much at the middle to high middle level in terms of price tags. Your highest priced entry is TAR, which is a $25 film. And then Banshees of In the Sharon, which is a 20, which I also picked, and we'll get into that, where I feel like, as somebody who devised these price structures, I look back and I'm like, I probably undervalued Banshees of and a Sharon, because first of all, everybody who I've talked to... Depends on how much box office is going to matter. I picked my roster not even thinking about box office. I think that was basically a decision that you had to make whether you thought,

and whether you thought the big box office movies like Top Gun and Wakanda. and, well, Top Gun's not going to earn you box office. Wakanda and Avatar are going to cross over enough into awards to make them worthwhile. There are a few, we'll talk about this on a future one. There are a few box office movies that I think are going to be good value picks that I don't think were like too super highly, that weren't going to cost you very much. Like, I think, I want to dance with somebody was a $5 movie. there is a chance that that draws a lot of people to theaters over Christmas weekend and into the new year.

I can never remember the name of the Disney movie that I just saw, Strange World. Which is another $5 movie that I think could pay off. It could be the type of thing that, you know, it may not get the points for being like number one at the box office or something, but over the long haul could make a box office tally that does get you a lot of points. And could end up on the animated feature shortlist. You know what I mean? Right. There is, like, that possibility is out there.

But anyway, I wanted to drill into Bardo for a second because I just recently saw that, and I know that you are a fan. You picked this sight and seen. You hadn't seen the movie when you picked this. So we'll talk about, I imagine as award season goes on, we'll talk about Bardo. I ended up liking it a good bit better than I expected to. I thought I would really sort of be struggling to get through. And it's like, it's...

The third act is the hardest to get through. There's two specific sequences back to back that feel like a big ask of the audience to put those back to back once you're already past the two-hour mark. But overall, I really like the movie. It worked about one scene on, one scene off, kind of for me, at a pretty, like, consistent level of, like, one sequence was, like, really, really tremendous and I was very captivated by it, and the whole thing looks gorgeous, even when it is being annoying to me. You know who I loved in that movie was the guy who played the talk show host,

who gives him a hard time, and then they also have the scene on the rooftop. He had Jude Law in contagion energy that I really, really enjoyed. But so where do you expect Bardo to earn you points. I mean, I've kind of, a lot of people have talked about Glass Onion. Like, it's probably Netflix's top priority play, and I've wondered if it's Bartow for a while. I'm saying it should be. I don't know if it will be. But you're not alone in saying a lot of that. Um, uh, Bardo is something that I actually see probably being a best director nominee. I could see this being a movie that, uh, shows up on Oscar nomination morning and surprises people, with five or six nominations

and that it goes beyond the international feature category. Sure. I'm not sure if it'll win the international feature category, but I think especially with the Netflix machine behind it, I do think that this is going to be a movie that does better than people are probably expecting it to. And obviously, like, there are the signs there already that the industry maybe appreciates it more than festival audiences have.

Right. Obviously, not a movie that's going to yield, me any box office points, but... Right, right. I don't know. I'm somewhat bullish, you could say. So, as I said, I share, I think the only one that we share... No, Fire of Love I also picked, which I think we both expect that to be...

It's tough to, like, predict the documentary category because they often go very much their own way, but I do feel like that is a strong, would-be contender, and I've thought that way For a low dollar pick, too. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, and it's like, who knows, that could be a winner in documentary. We don't know at this point. I don't think there's any... I think it has a good chance.

Yeah, especially if, as you believe, Laura Poitras having already won for Citizen 4 makes her less of a likely contender for all the beauty in the bloodshed. There's a whole lot of history there where they just do not nominate people who have already won. We'll see how that goes. So, as I said to you, we share banshees-a-Sharon, and we'll get to that in a second. My other picks are everything everywhere all at once, which was a $45 valuation, which was my sort of, like, big swing. I wanted to get one of the two top contenders that I think could win Best Picture.

At this point, I don't think it's only two movies that can win Best Picture, but I think the two most likely at this point are everything everywhere all at once and the Fabal I'm not ruling out other movies jumping up there, but I think everything everywhere all at once has the potential to be nominated in a lot of categories and to show up throughout awards season. Especially as a lot of these late season movies seem to really disappoint people, like she said in Babylon, or at least the first blush with Babylon and first responses, you know, a lot of people seem to be underwhelmed. I could see both of those movies still getting Best Picture nominations, but it's seeming less. and less likely that they're going to be like the winning juggernaut movie. I also picked Banshees of and a Sharon. I think, as I said,

there's a chance I undervalued that when I came up with the evaluations for this. And like, trust me when I say, I did not value these movies with an eye towards me picking my team. I can't win this thing. So like this, me picking a team is literally for like editorial shits and giggles

at this point. But so many people that I know of sent me their rosters and had Banshees of In a Sharon on it, and at $20 for a movie that will very likely get three acting nominations, outside chance for four acting nominations, and is also a best picture. And it's a Best Picture Dark Horse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, yeah, because of the spread of it, I think that that is, that has the potential to be the highest value, uh, draft pick. Yeah. Among all of the options. However, if ever,

everybody recognized that and made it their pick, then maybe not. It could be a wash. Maybe it's a wash. Yeah, it could be a wash because everybody picked it. The other $20 valuations, just to give you a sense, were Glass Onion, a Knives Out Mystery, which maybe a little overvalued at 20, unless they really do make that Netflix's Oscar contender. And then Triangle of Sadness, which I think does have some juice in it. Like, you could get some good mileage out of Triangle of Sadness. There is good potential that feels like a movie whose, like, star has faded somewhat as the season has gone on, but it is a movie with the potential to come back, I think.

Could have picture director nomination potential and sporting actress, screenplay, yeah. My fingers are crossed so hard. My other picks were, I kind of went heavy on the animation category, and we'll see how that turns out. I picked Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio, which has thus far gotten good word of mouth. It's still very early yet, but it's gotten good word of mouth from what I've heard. And then turning red, which I do feel like will be a nominee, maybe not a winner. And then I also picked Lyle Lyle Crocodile as a flyer one dollar pick solely because I do feel like there is a better than outside chance that that gets a best original song nomination. solely because you knew that talking about our actual teams would happen on the episode that we are having Katie Rich as a guest and, you know, Katie noted Laya Lio Crocodile.

Katie Rich is the media's champion of Lyle Lyle Crocodile, and we love her for it. My other sort of low dollar picks were living because I do feel like Bill Nye is a strong contender for a Best Actor nomination. I think that is a potential best-pick shirt nomination, too, just because of Sony classics history. Here's what I will say. My initial reaction to that is, you're insane, but, like, I've undervalued, I've underrated this movie all season, so, like, who knows? Like, I could be completely wrong.

I think it's just very small and quiet, and... Especially as the Sun has now moved to a qualifying release. Sure. I think Living is the movie that they're going to be pushing. Sure. I just don't feel like... It's not like there's a Sony Pictures Classics nominee every year. Sure, absolutely, which is why you're not wrong to call me crazy about this.

However, there are a lot of, you know, surface-level parallels that they've had a lot of success with. Sure, yeah. I mentioned Fire of Love, and then my eighth movie, which I don't feel great about as an awards play, is Devotion, which could get, like, a nomination here or there. It was cheap enough, it was affordable enough. I shouldn't say cheap that has a value judgment on it. It was affordable enough for me that I thought what little box office it picks up. And like, there's a chance it makes a good, modest box office. There's a lot of people talking about Jonathan Majors in that movie, too.

Best actor being what it is, you know, it might just take that movie being in it and he's finding it culminated. But like, yeah, devotion has the potential to be a modest little hit. And then if so, then it's a good value. pick for me. So I like my roster. It's going to depend very heavily on the top. I very much strategically went for what in fantasy football is known as a Stars and Scrubs approach, where you pick, especially if you're doing an auction, which is essentially what this format mirrors is an auction format where you're paying higher prices for bigger things, that like I basically picked two that I think are going to get me 90% of my points, and then

and six movies that I think will, like, produce enough value that will augment those top two movies. But it's going to depend very heavily. I think you have a little bit, you have a much more balanced roster where you're going to be able to get more points from the middle of your roster than I will. Well, but my stars, I think, are pretty, I think, reliable that there's going to be prizes there. I will be interested to see ultimately how well tar are. does. Because TAR does seem like the classic critics will love it more than Oscar voters will love it. The question is how much? How big that disparity will be? Is any group going to go for it for Best Picture? Is anybody going to give Best Director to Todd Field, et cetera?

I think the critics groups will show up for TAR. I think there is a chance that when the Oscar votes come around and it gets like four nominations and everybody freaks out, I wouldn't be super surprised. Right. I mean, I also have Till, too. I kind of have a feeling that not only critics, but Oscar could show up for that movie. If you look at a lot of these specialty release movies, like, it's box office is beating all of them.

Yeah. Like, it's compared to things like banshees and tar, it's a box office hit. I think Danielle Deadweiler is pretty well, nothing is locked at this point, but she's pretty well in position for a nomination for Best Actress, and that's going to get you far throughout awards season. So those are our rosters. We will be back next week to talk about the first batch of awards nominations and how those have affected. The Indy Spirit Awards, as you listen to this, depending on how soon in the week you listen to this, they may have already presented. But tune in to our episode next week. We'll talk about how people did with their

how movies did at the Indy Spirit Awards. And yeah, so I'm just going to remind you, but even though we are past the point of you being able to sign up for the Poole, or for the Fantasy League, that you can win, first place wins a TCL 55-inch 5-series smart Roku TV. Second place wins a stream bar plus wireless base bundle. You can go to moviegame.vulture.com, where scores will be. be posted starting, I believe, the end of this week. And if you have signed up for the movie league, you are getting a newsletter written by me. And I will be posting scores in that as well. So, uh, enjoy. We are off to the races, Chris, as they say, with the Vulture movie game. And now, enjoy your regularly scheduled Lost City of Zet. I call it Zet.

Okay, Charlie Hunnam, though. Yes. I'm not sure. I mean, like, he's tasked with being handsome leading man in a lot of scripts that are not as interesting as this. Yeah. That ask far less of him than this. But, like, I don't know where he goes from this movie. And yet, like, this movie makes such a strong case for him as a leading man.

It's almost like if this would have been the first time that he had. had the opportunity to do this type of vibe, he might have gotten better roles instead of the opposite. Well, it's also, like, not a good time for our hunks, like, of, you know, for the Garrett Headlands, Charlie Hunnam's of the world. Like, Charlie Hunnam is over 40 now. Like, he's British. He's not in the Channing Tatum spot because only Channing Tatum can be in the

Channing Tatum spot. And he's not a Marvel character yet. Actually, it's kind of weird that hasn't happened yet, honestly. Kind of is, yes. But, yeah, like, what else is there? What are the things we wish he was doing that he's not? Like an Apple TV Plus series sounds like exactly what he should be doing. But, you know, we know how that goes.

Yes. It's tough to say, like, Sons of Anarchy was a weirdly, became a really good fit for him, even though, like, I was so dubious that that would be the case. And yet, he's very easily overshadowed by the other people who are on that show, right? Ron Perlman's a bigger presence on that show, Katie Seagall, all that sort of stuff. stuff. And the thing about Lost City of Zed is that James Gray is willing to give him a lot of space and a lot of room in this movie to develop this character. He doesn't really crowd him out. He trusts him with, you know, sort of quiet moments and quiet scenes. And yet also will give him a big sort of like fiery speech in front of the, geographical society and all that and I don't see a whole lot of other people giving him that leeway and his other stuff so yeah because as much of it is this like huge period epic

it's also I mean I think if you probably asked James Gray to talk about this movie he would probably tell you it's more of a character study type of movie and in that way it serves Charlie Hunham a lot better than the type of, like, epics and large-scale macho movies he's been in. For, like, for all of the sort of, you know, driven, purposeful stuff that his character sort of goes through in this movie, the stuff with him and Sienna Miller is just as compelling. Like, that is a really, really interesting marriage on the screen. And I think that impresses me even more, maybe.

Yeah, I don't want to be rude to Charlie Hunnam because I think he's good in this movie. But I think a lot of it is the, like, that's the koolishab effect where, like, you edit, you show something and then you cut to somebody else. And, like, I think James Gray is leading you to think about this movie to look at someone's face and to see what's developing in their thoughts. And, like, he is capable of it, like, but I don't know that it's, like, such stunning work of acting is that, like, his performance is working well with what the movie is, is telling you. But I agree with you about their marriage. And I think that's interesting because that's, like, real chemistry between them. It is. And that's good writing, but, like, also the...

And no shade against Sienna Miller, but, like, that doesn't always happen with her... Great chemistry between two of our great faceless actors. Right. Well, like... Listen, living with someone you love is sometimes lonelier than living alone. Than living alone. What is the rest of that? If the person you're in love with...

Is it in love with you? Yeah. All right. I knew I knew kind of a hot tin roof was going to come up. I knew it. The thing about Sienna Miller, well, Chris brings up the... the sort of most salient point that, you know, I don't want to dance around for too much longer

because, like, she is, the thing about Sienna-Miller face blindness, I sort of, you know, it's real. It is one of those things where you would like to feel like it is, it's overblown and people are being mean, and it's just sort of like people being bitchy about Sienna-Miller. And yet, I've experienced Sienna-Miller face blindness. I have, you know, I've gone through it,

and it is, it's a thing. So for the quiz that I've come up with For this particular iteration We've gone through Charlie Hunnam or Garrett Headland And the battle By the way, they're in the same They're in Triple Frontier I just wanted people are going to be screaming at their

I knew they were in something together Yep Shout out David Sims, the one person who rides for that movie So it's so hard Um Second time around we did Ben Wishaw and Donald Gleason and the Battle of the

Whispy, dreamy, British lads. Then last time we did Jack O'Connell and Josh O'Connor and the sort of similarly named also UK-centric performers. In this case, I wanted to step out of this a little bit. I knew we were going to do last. City of Zed because Katie, you suggested it, and I

associate that movie with you so strongly, my experience of watching that movie. I knew I had to do a Sienna Miller quiz, and the question then was who to pair Sienna Miller with, who spiritually really fits

this sort of like Sienna Miller or who? And so I think I wrestled with it for quite a while, and finally, this idea of Sienna Miller face blindness really settled in. And what I decided to do was we are going to play a game of Sienna Miller or anyone else.

And so the game is going to be, I am going to give you the name of a character and a description of who they are in what movie. And you're going to tell me, was this role played by Sienna Miller or anyone else? That'll be for one point. And then for a second bonus point, if you can name who that. anyone else is, you'll get a second point. So there are points to be had. And I will be keeping.

We were just saying, like, in another movie, it would have been just the wife. I feel like we're in for so many of those. Katie, you have intuited very correctly in this case. By the way, I am rocking a pen that is just leaking ink all over me. Whatever. Oh, no. I feel like I'm a college professor in a movie about somebody who has, like,

one of those offices with just, like, manuscripts sort of stack. Yeah. Oh, you are a Charlie Kaufman character. I'm Nicole Kidman's Virginia Woolf, in point of fact. I have the ink-stained fingers is what's going on there. All right. So, Katie, you are a guest. You're going to take our first crack at Sienna Miller or anyone else.

Are you ready? Yeah, I guess so. All right. As Edie Sedgwick, one of Andy Warhol's many muses in Factory Girl. I'm pretty sure that is Sienna Miller. That is indeed Sienna Miller. One point for you. Chris, as Nancy.

wife to murdered Olympic wrestler Dave Schultz in Foxcatcher. That is Sienna Miller. It's not fair not to give me the Foxcatcher question. My personal brand depends on it. All right. This is back to Katie. As Teresa, a woman who copes with the loss of her mother via hallucinogenics in Woodshok. Oh, my God.

I have no idea. I'm going to guess not Sienna Miller. It is not Sienna Miller. Do you want to take a crack at who that might be? Who could it be? You know, I was looking her up because of another scene. Hang on, no, I'm going to say that because it might be spoilery. Let's say, Sadie Frost.

Just go back to my tabloid controversy. Can I take the steel? I'm not going to do steal points, but just for... For posterity? Yes. It is Kirsten Dunst. It is recent first time Oscar-Ramine. That's the Ror-Dartre movie.

It is the Rodarte movie. Yes, indeed. All right. I'm one of like three people who have seen that not great movie. Chris, for you, as Strawberry Fields, an MI6 agent who was seduced by James Bond in Quantum of Solace. That is not Sienna Miller. That is not Sienna. Want to take a guess who it is?

It's Oga Curlienko. It's not. I'm taking the steal. That's Gemma Arterton. That is Gemma Archerton. Much more of a Sienna-Miller dupe. Should I give points for steals? Should I do that?

Nah. All right. Nah. Okay. Back to Katie. As Emily, the love interest to John Cusack's Edgar Allan Poe in The Raven. Oh, my God. I've heard people make jokes about this so much.

I don't think that's Santa Miller. It is not Sienna Miller. You get a point. Want to guess who? Oh, God. What's the name of the girl who's in Sucker Punch? I feel like it's her. Her name is Emily.

No, her name might not be Emily. There is an Emily in Sucker Punch. Yeah. Vanessa Hudgens. I don't know. You're thinking of Emily Browning, but it's not Emily Browning. Chris, do you have a guess at this, just for fun? I thought Vera Farmingo was in that movie.

She might be in that movie, but this role is Alice Eve. Alice Eve. Chris, to you, as Christy, a young woman with a credible claim on the vineyard that Russell Crow means to inherit in a good year. That is not Sienna. That is anyone else. It is Mary and Co. No, Marianne Cotillard is a different role in that movie. Isn't it a French lady, though?

It is not. It's Abby Cornish. Oh, Abby. Katie, as Dr. Grace Hart, one of the love interests for one of a pair of detectives played by Will Ferrell and John C. Riley in Holmes and Watson. Oh, Jesus. I don't think that's Santa Miller. It is not Sienna Miller.

Okay. Any idea? It's Rebecca Hall, right? Well, Katie should have gotten the chance to get it. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I just jumped her. Is it really Rebecca Hall? It's really Rebecca Hall.

Wow. Thanks, Chris. Sorry. I get the point. I'll take it. All right. It's my fault for just jumping right in. All right.

I can't believe Rebecca Hall had to take that role in like 2019 whenever that came out. Good Lord. Yeah. All right. Chris, this is back to you. Sorry, one second. Yes. As Tammy, Daniel Craig's love interest in layer cake.

That is Sienna Miller. That is Sienna Miller. Point to you. It is five to four, Katie. All right. Katie, as Simone, a prostitute and love interest for Ryan Reynolds in Mississippi Grind. Oh, geez. I think that is Sienna Miller?

That is Sienna Miller. Oh, wow. Katie. All right. Chris, as Jan, the pregnant wife of Jason Clemson. Clark's Mountain Climber in Everest. That is not Sienna Miller. It is not. Who is it?

Is that Kira Knightley? It is Kira Knightley. There we go. That movie's not half-bad. She's the only actress I know in that movie. Not half-bad movie. I think she is the only actress in that movie. Katie, to you, as Francesca, feminist author and the love interest of the title character in Kassanova.

Oh. I think that is Sienna Miller. It is Sienna Miller. All right. All right. You guys are very good. this. Chris, as Lisa, a young woman who wakes up in a bathtub full of ice with a kidney missing in Urban Legends Final Cut. Oh, wow. I'm going to guess that is not Sienna Miller. It is not Sienna Miller. Any idea?

Like, is it also Alice Eve? It is not. It feels like it may be Alessie, but it is not. Right. Katie, do you have any? idea. We haven't guessed Haley Atwell yet, and I feel like she's coming, so I'm going to hear her. It is not Haley Atwell. It is Jacinda Barrett. No. Our friend of Susinda Barrett. Katie, this is

for you, as Joan, the third wife of Ray Crock and the founder. I don't think that's Deanna Miller. It is not any idea who. Is that Haley Atwell? It is not Haley Atwell. That is, Chris, any idea? I know Laura

insurance in that movie, but I don't know who else is in that movie. There's Linda Cardalini, who I thought was Sienna Miller and Foxcatcher, famously. All right. Is she also, isn't she also in Foxcatcher, Linda Cardlini? No, what am I thinking of? Nope, you're thinking of the Avengers movies. Obviously. Katie, this is, no, wait.

Chris, this is to Chris, right? Yeah. Yeah. All right. As Elsa, the mother of a young German ace of Butterfield in the boy in the striped pajamas. no that is not sienna miller it's not who is it that is bera farmedia that is bera farmedia good work katy as victoria the woman who loses her man to a star made human in stardust she is in stardust i think that's sienna miller that is you're right correct that is sienna miller

okay chris as jean wife to the world's worst golfer mark rylance in the phantom of the open That is not Sienna Miller. It's not. Who is it? It is Sally Hawkins. What is this movie? I got to see the Phantom of the Open. All right. Katie, as the Baroness, a villainous

Cobra operative in G.I. Joe, the Rise of Cobra. That is, Sienna Miller. Sure is. I've seen that one. Unfortunately, not a very good performance or movie. Oh, wow. Chris, as Ava, an actress who aggressively seeks the rights to adapt the title characters enigmatic yet dubious story in J.T. Leroy.

That is not Sienna Miller. Correct. Who is it? That's Laura Dern. No. Laura Dern is the one who fakes being J.T. Leroy. Is it Kristen Stewart? I saw that movie at that tip. Is the person? Is the person who pretends to be J.T. Leroy? This is Diane Krueger. Diane. Right.

Who plays essentially Asia Argento in that movie. Yes. Katie, this is for you. As Daphne, Jonah Hill's girlfriend and get him to the Greek. Oh. It's not Sienna Miller. It's not. Who is it?

Emily Blunt. It's Elizabeth Moss. No. Lizzie Moss. Chris. Chris, as Charlotte, the single mother love interest for Tom Hiddleston and High Rise. That is Sienna. That is Sienna Miller.

good. All right. We've got two more apiece. So into this last couple rounds of questions, Katie has 11. Chris has 13. Oh, yikes. All right. So Katie, as Melody, the ludicrously young woman who ends up married to Larry David in Woody Allen's Whatever Works. That is not Santa Miller. Yes. That is Evan Rachel Wood. That is Evan Rachel Wood. Katie ties it up. I've seen that one. Chris, as Kay, the longtime girlfriend of Matthew McConaughey's gold procurer in gold. That is not Sienna Miller. All right.

Who is it? Bryce Dallas Howard. Yes, it's Bryce Dallas Howard. Wow. Katie, your last question. Has Collette the lawyer for a mentally ill Helen Abottom Carter in 55 steps? I've never heard of that movie. I know who this is.

I'm going to say it's not. I know the answer. I'm going to say it's not Sienna Miller. It's not Sienna Miller. Any guesses? Going back to my friend Haley Atwell one more time, I don't think it's her. It's not Haley Atwell. Chris, who is it?

It's Hillary Swank. It's Hillary Swing. All right, Chris, you have mathematically secured the game, but you get the last question anyway. As Frankie, a narcotics cop, partnered with Chattowick Bozeman in 21 Bridges. That is Sienna Miller. It is Sienna Miller. Chris, you win 16 to 14. Wow.

Well, well played. I watched that cat on a hot tin roof clip enough to know. Katie, it is insane that I didn't pick any Haley Atwell roles. You're absolutely right. I know. I was just like going through like British actresses around 40 and she popped up for me. Chris, you have a better working knowledge of Sienna Miller's filmography than I was prepared for. You were really on that ball.

I guess I was more prepared for that than I was as well. The face blindness is maybe. overrated when it comes to, for the both of you actually, you both pretty much nailed all the Sienna Miller rolls. I definitely thought she was in London Fields, that movie that got delayed a bazillion times, but I guess that was Amber Hurd

who... Oh, sure. I feel like Sienna-Miller's the person, I think, is always in all of those, like, rock and roll. She is in layer cake, but like, what was that Beban-Kedron movie? I think it was Bebon-Kadrond. It was like hippie, hippie shake or something. Yes, yeah, that movie got

delayed forever to ever come out? I think it did in the UK, maybe, but not here in the States. I think it's on her IMDB page. It's quite the career, I will say. She's been in a lot of movies for somebody who was sort of like the joke is that like nobody really. And like, I feel like, what you call it? American sniper felt like a turning point where it was such a big hit and she's in

such a prominent role and that everybody who saw that was like, I guess I I remember her being in that, but mostly I remember the fake baby in her arms. Yep. Yeah. Can I talk about a Santa Meller movie, though, that I think no one has ever seen, but she deserved, like, that would make you believe in her? Yes. I think I know what this movie is. This movie, American Woman?

She got, okay. Have you seen this movie? No one has seen this movie. I haven't seen it, but I do remember around the time of Mayor of Easttown because the director of that movie is the creator of Mary of Easttown. The writer of that movie. Jake Scott's son of Ridley is a director of it. Weirdly. Yeah, Brad Inglesby wrote.

Like those of us who saw American women knew Mayor of East Town would be major. Yes. Well, the thing is like, American Woman is not really a good movie. But Brad Inglesby takes like all of the good parts of American Woman. It's like, I'm going to make it a murder mystery show and make it a hit. And it made, like, Kate Winslet does not, like, doesn't have like stolen valor from Sienna Miller. Like she is still Kate Winslet.

But Sienna is really good at American woman. I know. What a caveat. Santa Miller is doing a lot of the same stuff. she's playing like a surprisingly old grandmother and she's like raising this kid and she's like in that exact same house with like the stairs where you like walk in the door

and the stairs go up and the stairs go down Is Amy Madigan the Jean Smart in that movie? Amy Madigan is the Jean Smart in that movie. Amazing. And Christina Hendricks is the Julian Nicholson in some way. She's like the sister-in-law. It's like a slightly different story but like her teenage daughter goes missing

so like there's like a murder mystery element. But yeah, I'm not going to like tell people to go run and see that movie because it's not very good. But CNN Miller is really good in it. I interviewed her for it. And, like, ever since, like, she really went for it. And, like, should she have started a movie called American Woman?

I don't know. It's not a great title for a movie anyway, but, like, it bums me out that she really did the work in that. And then Mary of Easttown goes and, like, gets all the glory. That was the title that Kyle Richards chose for the TV show about her mother's life that she made that got Kathy Hilton all angry at her in the first place. I just feel like no one should use that title. I mean, like, directed by, like, again, Jake Scott's son of Ridley, like, should he? be directing that movie? I don't know. Yeah, I do remember, though, that getting

good reviews. She is currently, according to IMDB, making, she's in the new Kevin Costner directed Western. Of course, on a long enough timeline, Kevin Costner will make another Western. Horizon, is that what that is? Horizon. It's her, our friend, Sam

Worthington, who is being forced back into all of our consciousness now that this can't be facial blindness. them. Truly, right? It's the two facial blindness people all at once. It's Sienna and Sam Worthington. It's going to be like Annihilation, where it's the two sort of like glass-faced

entities, staring at each other and mirroring each other's movements. Yeah. Gen. Malone also. Annihilation, but it's Sam Worthington and Sienna Miller and cowboy hats. That's another one, though. Again, like, this, like, whatever, post-Civil War

Western, and you cast Um, Sienna Miller, who is, was born in New York City, but is English, right? Yeah, very, very distinctly English, I think. Sam Worthington is us, no, he's English. I always want to say he's Australian, but no, he's Australian. Well, he was born in England. See, this is why we were, click on their thing. Yes, yes, he was born.

And Nicole Kidman is Hawaiian. Yeah, well, also that, yes, okay. Yeah, he moved to Australia when he was six months old, so, you know. Jamie Campbell Bauer. also English Like, and then you get into like Your American... But Luke Wilson's in there, you know.

Luke Wilson, Thomas Aden, Texas. Jenam alone, Michael Rooker, sure. But like, your top three Beyond Kevin Costner stars in this very, very American genre. Whatever. Like, it's dumb to complain about that kind of thing

because like, you know, Benedict Cumberbatch can star in, you know, Power of the Dog and play. Sure, and be really good. You know, good. But whatever. It's just, it's just, interesting to me. I need to find a

Sam Worthington movie to do on this show so I can ride to his defense because they've always It's really it's hard His career has not really gone that direction What's the one where he's on he's A Fugitive and he's on the ledge of a building and he's like yelling down At a cop down on the ledge

That one didn't have Oscar Buzz but we could just lie I guess we could Yeah Wait he's in Everest We're going to He's in Everest That's it. We're doing Everest next time. I think we might have to do Everest. I think we might have to. That's a good cast, though. Jason Clark, Jake Gyllenhaal, Josh Brolin, John Hawks, Robin Wright, Emily Watson, uh, Kira Knightley, Sam Worthington, Martin Henderson. Talk about also face blindness. Like, Debicki's in that movie? I don't know. She's in that movie. She plays Everest. And directed by, uh, Baltasar Kormakor, like the European, like, Schlock talkout tour who everyone loves that was a movie I saw that was I have such a soft spot for movies

that I see based purely on convenience I literally I had the afternoon off I was walking in the on the upper west side I walked past the Lincoln Square theater and I was like I should see a movie what's playing right now and it was Everest and I was like okay and it was fine honestly it was just very fine and I'll take it you know honestly it was a nice place to sit for a couple hours and sometimes that's all you need um yeah all right well we've already then locked you in for i'm so i love it love it when a plane comes together the quiz will be everest or k2 and it'll just be shops of mouth did you say Vanessa Kirby because Vanessa Kirby's also in that movie wait is she yes according to IMDP and Mia goth Jesus Christ

I did not go down that far yeah you're totally right and Robin Wright plays someone in Peach Weathers. Gail Weathers, meteorologist's sister. Peach Weathers. Fantastic. Robin Wright does not, Robin Wright, like it's 20 years ago.

Robin Wright does not look like a peach, I will say. No. Amazing. All right. Back to Lost City of Zad. We're backing up, back, back, back, back and up. We got to talk about Pattinson in this movie, who enters this movie.

pretty much exactly the same way he enters Tenet, which is he's just sort of there to help the main character, and he's been there in the scene for like a couple of minutes. And the main character's like, why are you here? What are you doing? Yeah, exactly. It's perfect. That's such a good point. This feels like a turning point movie for him kind of too. I want to look into his filmography to like, he had been in things post-Twilight, but like before this...

like he was doing his like David Cronenberg like tiny movies that nobody saw like as Twilight was wrapping up yeah so the last twilight comes out in 2012 but but no but like queen of the desert life um childhood of a leader like this comes out the same year's good time so like that's I think the one to punch everyone's like oh we're paying attention to him because like really like look at his I and to be it's not until like the like high life is 2018 did anyone see that the Lighthouse in 2019 feels like the first one. Like enough people saw weird-bearded Robert Pattinson. So this is certainly an important stepping stone on that path.

His breakout from Twilight, I want to sort of like track it because like, remember me, fake 9-11, not fake 9-11, secret 9-11 movie, is in the midst of the Twilights, as is water. Water for elephants. Water for elephants. Which is a movie that we've done in this podcast without you, and yet it feels spiritually like we did it with you. We talked about it on fighting in the war room. We did a like 10 years later flashback episode where we talked about movies we had talked about on the podcast in 2011.

And I think I had listened to it not long before we had done our episode. So like it felt spiritually like you were there. I have watched it recently and like I'm the only person on Earth who has. So I don't know what I've talked about it. And then Cosmopolis comes out right around the time or the same year as Twilight Breaking Dawn Part 2. And then from there it's he does the rover with David Mishot, which. did not appeal to me in the least. It's just, and I

like Animal Kingdom a lot, but like, I don't love westerns. It's sort of a dystopian Western at that, and I wasn't into Pattinson at that point. I didn't like Cosmopolis at all. And there wasn't really a ton of reason.

Like, I like Guy Pearce. I like Scoot McNary a lot, but I didn't really know that then. The most conceivable movie that Scoot McNamey would be... Are we talking about face blindness and not talking about Scoop McNary, who I'll never recognize from movie to movie? I feel like... But face blindness with a character actor can be seen as a virtue, right?

Yeah, that's true. You disappear into roles and whatnot. I think it's face blindness with somebody who was taking a lead or a featured, you know, love interest or whatever. Maps to the Star is another movie that I did not care for, another Cronenberg pair up that I didn't care for. He has so little to do in that movie, too. Yeah.

Did either one of us, any one of the three of us see Queen of the Desert, the Werner-Hurtzog? No, but I kind of feel like you need to do it on this show. I mean, Kidman and Pattinson, like, we kind of do have to, right? And Pattinson's playing Lawrence of Arabia. Like, it's crazy. Yeah. That movie, like, was the type of thing that prognosticators were paying attention to, and then the movie just, like, never got released.

Yeah. Well, and then, like, so he's working kind of exclusively with really interesting directors, right? David Mischaud, David Cronenberg, Werner Herzog, he works with Anton Corbyn for Life, a movie that, again, I don't know, single person. With Daneahan playing James Dean, I have seen that movie, and I don't remember why. Oh, interesting. I just shared you guys a picture of Rupert Pattinson in Queen of the Desert holding two baby lions. I got to look at it. I'll put it on the Tumblr.

Oh, my God. Looking like very. Just sort of staring at him kind of. And he just looks like confused about why he's there and why he's playing his lions. He does. She also does. The two lion cubs also look confused. Like just just there's a lot of confusion happening.

I don't know why it's happening. Wait, so what is the story about James Dean that is being told in Anton Corbyn's life? It's about the story of that photo of James Dean in Times Square, like where he has like his jacket collar pulled up. Sure, sure, sure, sure. I don't remember. Oh, you. You know, I interviewed the costume designer of the Woman King recently, and she worked on that movie, and that is why it, like, resurfaced in my brain. I remember nothing else about seeing that.

Oh, this was the movie that Taylor Cole mentioned to me, because we were, when we talked about, Melissa Leo is Laura Plotris and the Snowden episode, and about Oscar winners, and we sort of cast about for other suggestions, which, yes, I remember that I forgot to mention that Gary Oldman played Mank, even though I had it in my notes in front of my face, and I didn't mention it. And of course there were others. And even though Joe is a noted Mank. Love Mank, but like Faye Dunn away as John Crawford, and there were a lot of ones. We did, like, we did not purport to have the definitive list. We did ask everybody to contribute, so thank you everybody. We did have a pretty gay list, but like that. But Ben Kingsley plays Jack Warner in life, and so that's another one to throw in the file.

Since I imagine Jack Warner won an Oscar for something or other. So anyway, back to Pattinson. and he works with, oh, God, a Brady Corby movie, the childhood of a leader, which I didn't see. And he's, like, specifically Hitler or just, like, a fascist, like, leader? I don't think it's specifically Hitler. I've seen that movie, and I don't remember, but. But that's sort of what it's about, right?

It's like it's about, like, the childhood of somebody who grows up to be a fascist dictator. Like, isn't that the deal? Essentially, yeah. Jack Warner won an Oscar for My Fair Lady. What's that? Jack Warner won an Oscar for My Fair Lady. my fair lady just you know closing that loop um and then since lost city of zed um good time you mentioned with the safeties who had just made heaven knows what and were sort of riding high from that uh claire denie

in high life robert eggers after uh the witch with the lighthouse um obviously nolan with tenant i fucking love him in tenet so much he's so good in tenant a human scarf uh just a wonderful anthropomorphized linen just a wonderful man in that movie i loved him and then he's filming, again, according to Wikipedia, which who knows how often they mention the update things, he's filming the new Bong Joon movie, Mickey 7, which

super excited about that with Stephen Young and Tony Colette and Mark Ruffalo and Naomi Aki. Like, that's a fucking cast. Well, yeah, I mean, any Bong Joon movie is... Biggest movie of next one. But I think that's a big reason why. I think this is also how Nicole Kidman

went from being Tom Cruz's wife who's maybe not respected for being an actress to sort of what she became is she made it a point to work with really, really interesting directors, even if the projects weren't super commercial. And I think that gains a lot of respect. If you are somebody who is coming from a place of not being really respected for your craft, is people will follow you down that road, especially people like us and sort of in our circles who then sort of bring that enthusiasm

to the people. Yeah. And it's been like overstated but like Kristen Stewart really does follow the same path. Totally. The both of them did. Yeah. It feels like he went a little more hardcore into it and like I don't know if that's actually true. Well she yeah I think Kristen Stewart

He probably did darker material than she did ultimately I think. Yeah. Yeah. But she still worked with you know, all sorts of Like, she starts in Seabourg and J.T. Leroy and Right, right. But they're also like

Charlie's Angels and that kind of stuff, right? So, um, well, now isn't, I mean, where do we land in Pattinson's Batman? Like, do we feel like that was a good use of this actor we love? I like Pattinson in Batman. I don't like the Batman. I think that's, uh, I don't know why that movie was made. And I think it's a waste of Colin Farrell and I know I'm in the minority on that, but I really don't. It's

gonna take forever for that sequel to happen and by then nobody's gonna care about that world. Yeah. Interesting. But I like that movie and I liked him in it. I think he has maybe the least to do as Batman and Bruce Wayne.

How dare you? He stares at so many things quizzically and puzzledly and he doesn't know what to make of them. No, it's Jeffrey Wright who has the least to do with this. He just keeps having to say out loud what he's looking at and ask a question and then about genuinely 40% of that movie.

I like that movie, but I got very tired of that. But I like Pattinson. I like Pattinson as sort of, you know, emo is is an overused term and not always like accurately applied. But like that sort of, you know, moody younger Batman who was just like, you know, why are you the way you are? Like it's, I think he's very good. I liked everything Greg Frazier brought to that movie. Sure. Yeah.

I like that movie fine. I didn't, I mean, like, we certainly needed another dark Batman. Like, that's exactly what we... But if he's making the Batman and then making a Bongchen home movie, like, you're doing great, Pattinson. Like, you're doing what you need to do. I have no, I have no qualms with, even like the devil all the time, which everybody hated. And he is... Have you seen that movie?

Oh, yeah. I haven't seen it. Yeah. I question the taste... I'm very Nina Garcia about this movie. I question the taste level of this movie. But he's entertaining going off of the rails in that movie. He's so over the top and the accent's insane.

Man, you know who's in, holy, I'm looking at Devil all the time, IMDB. Oh, everybody's in that one. Tom Holland's in that movie also. Harry Melling is in that movie also. And also Banks Repetta, Star of Armageddon Time. There's just James Gray all over, devil all the time. Dang. Well, Antonio Campos picked up the phone and called him James Gray and was like, how should I cast my movie?

I guess so. So let's bring it back, though, to Patinson in Las City, which is not a role that has a ton of, like, meat on the bone in terms of, like, if you read that script, and you are Robert Pattinson, and you are the star of one of the big sort of franchises of the aughts, right? And this movie isn't going to, even if this movie is a hit, you're not going to be the one who's going to benefit from that. It is really, really a supporting role. You are very much a supportive character. And yet, I love that Patinson was like, yeah, I want to do that. And he brings so much to that role. And he's so much fun to watch at all times in this movie.

Just saying like, you know what I mean? Just sort of like saying whatever. He's a really interesting foil to Percy Fawcett too, because he is really smart. He knows what he's doing. But he doesn't have the curiosity that Fawcett does. Like that moment where they get to the waterfall and he kind of has this like, big outburst of like you know we're the first ones to ever be here and you're like come on white guy like you're not and like faucet's the one who recognizes that but he's not right but then at the end

he's the one who's like I got a wife and kid now I'm not going back there like he can't see what faucet can but then he kind of knows when to pull back when it's most important I think that scene as kind of this not necessarily a scoundrel but sort of like he doesn't seem to have his shit together at the beginning of this movie he's sort of like you know lolling around in like the bowels of this ship, and he's so scruffy, and he's so, you know... Drunk. Right, exactly. And then you're right.

So, like, the passage of time through the maturation of this aide-de-camp character. And I do find, like, the parallels between his character and that and his character in Tenet, where it's just, like, he forms such a bond with the main character that we live. And obviously, it's much more pronounced in Tenet because, like, the movie, like, Tenet kind of, like, ends on the bond between those two characters, right? Like, that's the emotional, for as much as, like, him and the romance. And, you know, that's sort of how it ends, ends. But that, the, the, the, the bromance there, for lack of a better term, really.

That's what's most important. Oh, just, just so good. So, um, I think there are two sides of the way. Whereas this kind of dispenses of it far more abruptly than I think you expect it to. But you still feel, because, and it also. sort of transfers the then to him and his son right where like it's first and his son is the big relationship uh on the expeditions at the end but um but when he shows up in the trenches in world war one it's like we should talk about just that make more photography just like so glad he's

there like it's such a warm presence and he's the one person like as soon as he comes out of when he comes to and his eyes are all bandaged uh after the chlorine gas or whatever and he asks specifically about Pattinson's character and when she's like he made it through unharmed, you're just like yeah, you're so happy I love too that like that scene he comes out, he comes to

he thought he had died. He's got the bandages over his eyes but his eyes will recover and Sienna Miller's there and she's sort of telling him about everything and she's there and the sons are there and his eyes are damaged but they'll turn and all these people who he fought with had died and yet like the one thing that gets him to start weeping is when the doctor's like you may never you might

never be able to go back to the Amazon again and like that's this you know very telling moment of you know what really devastates him is this loss of this dream of his this sort of motivating animating, you know, dream of his. Yeah. I mean, I think we should talk about the, like, colonialism, like, white man in the jungle aspects of this movie. Oh, yeah. I mean, we're also in this high period of everyone talking about Armageddon time and, like, how it handles, like, relationships between white, black people, which, like, I don't want to get too bogged down in. But I just think it's a really interesting way to look at, like, white Europeans, like, adventures in other parts of the world and how catastrophic, catastrophically they have ended.

And it's not, it's about someone who, like, on the whole, like, didn't do as much damage as, like, other people. But I think it's just really careful not to be like, look at how enlightened he was to recognize that there could be a society there. Which reminds me actually a lot of Armagedon time. And I know that that has been received a bit divisively. But I think I like the way that Gray sort of steps back from that and says, yes, this character could be seen as, like one of the good ones am I making quote marks with my fingers for anybody who's only listening and yet that isn't sufficient you know what I mean that like and the movie is aware of that and and the characters that we're watching we can still sort of find them complex and their

and their motivations interesting and complex without having to like grind the gears for a moment of moralization. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. This is kind of all at the root of why James Gray has not really taken a massive hold in the culture. Because like the things that he's doing, I mean, I haven't seen Armaged in time yet. I'll see it in a few days. But in the rest of his movies, he's doing things that are far more delicate and nuanced. And sometimes I think even in the case of this movie, outright avoiding those types of, of easy reduction things that make, you know, movies easier to talk about or rally around or, you know, reduce down to a single talking point. Yeah.

But it's also, like, part of why this movie's far more interesting than, I don't know, even movies like it that Charlie Hunnam has been in. I think it's like, I imagine someone who has family who is, you know, native to the jungles of South America. Like, I can imagine seeing this being like, oh, you're treating our culture like at some, like. crazy weird exotic thing but i think it is treating these cultures that our protagonist has no way of understanding as people and you are seeing the way that their societies work but it's not like trying to get in their heads it's not trying to make them major characters it's like depicting this part of the world that he kind of had no business being in which is part of what happens like everyone around him is like you know we need to talk about murray and how he can't

handle the amazon oh we'll get to murray whether or not don't you worry about that um but it's just so it's like thoughtful in exactly the way that needs to be without getting bogged down and like how do I pay respect to the way that this works like I don't know now I feel like I'm like you know advocating for it's like tourism of swooping your movie down into something but it just it just tells its story and it like well it also about cultures meeting in a way that focuses on that and another stuff it also walks up to the line of what maybe another movie would do where he is the first expedition he goes to I believe it's a rubber plantation, right? And he sees that sort of like the Portuguese land baron there, who he's clearly disgusted by. He really, like, he can't stand this guy. He hates the, the practice of slavery that has

happening there, right? So, like, there is very much the opportunity for this movie then to be, he's one of the good ones, he doesn't like slavery, and that is why we are happy to have him as our protagonist or whatever. And it's

the movie still refuses to take any, like to stop taking a critical eye towards what the, you know, what he's bringing into the jungle in terms of just like white people's, you know, presence in the jungle. But also he leaves from that meeting with the Portuguese land baron with the guide, Tajul, the guide who will take him down the river, which again, in a lot of, lesser movie it becomes like they learn to communicate with each other and they get along and one supports the other and that is a representative of you know whatever you know it makes us feel good and whatever and in this movie he guides him down the river and then at one point they turn around and he has peace out he is gone yeah and and it is good that he has done that and and percy sort of you know the one person in their in their team is like he abandoned in us and he's like he got us he got us here he got us to where he needed to get us and he doesn't

need to be our you know mascot essentially for the any longer in the film that he needs to be it's it's a movie that allows itself to be complicated and to not have very you know easy moralization which i like well and i didn't write down his like speech to the top Holland at the very end where he's just like there are things in this world we cannot know and that is the point and like I think that's the attitude he has throughout the entire process which is probably not what most of the explorers of that era had but that's why he's the character we want to follow is that he's kind of there to figure out what he doesn't know and to go from there so okay let's talk about James Murray played by Angus McFadden who sucks so bad yeah but but who among us what would happen if you got put on a boat in the Amazon Joe Reed. Would you do any better than him? I wouldn't go.

This is the thing is this guy fancies himself, this great explorer. He's explored the Arctic and all this work. Did you know, by the way, the real life James Murray, I clicked on his Wikipedia link

and I read further, did you know, after all of this happened, and he gets, you know, sent back by Percy Fawcett, and they think he's dead, and he ends up back in England, and he wants to sue them for defamation because they,

they have ruined his good name or whatever and the historical society is like maybe not but after all of that happened the next year he went on an exhibition to the Arctic and their boat got stuck in the frigid Arctic waters

and he and a bunch of other people abandoned their captain with food the same way that whatever that happened and then they all died up in the Arctic. They mentioned that the movie don't they? Do they mention that? Someone read him the report being like there was a mutant aboard the boat.

Okay. Well, then, sorry, I missed that. No, I mean, like, that guy, well, like, because this is, I, I guess I knew at some point this is based on a book by the same guy who wrote Killers with a Flower Moon, which will be a movie next year. But I really need to read the book now because it does, like, those Wikipedia rabbit holes are, like, exactly where you want to go after this movie. The book also has, um, not auto-fictional, but, like, the author is essentially a character

in this nonfiction book too because there's a whole separate section dealing with the research of it just like there is in Killers of the Flower Man. Oh, interesting. Okay. But yeah, so Chris, you would not go to the Amazon, which is certainly the choice that I would make. But I just

just isn't like watching him being like, I was hungry, man. And I'm like, yeah. I would be really hot and hungry and not want to be there anymore. I get it, dude. I think of all the really good performances in the movie. Angus McFadgin is someone who I have never seen anyone talk about being so good in this movie. That's true.

And he is great in this movie as like just full, despicable, pathetic, like, an awful man. Yep. But. Because you know he's no good the minute. Like, you know it's not going to end well when he convinces. Right. Yeah. I also, like, Angus McFadion is like one of those guys that, like, you've seen in period pieces before. you've seen in what have you. He played Orson Wells and Cradle Will Rock lest we forget.

We could do an episode on that. We should, yeah. But, like, I don't think he'd ever really done anything quite like this where he's this type of, like, pathetic villain. Certainly,

Divine Secrets of the Yaya Sisterhood did not prepare him for what's going to happen. in the Amazon I love that this is our second Angus McFadden movie now because of that very good yeah just with Robert Pattinson

like the disgust that they both have for him like they are so united in their hatred for this guy it just helps build that bond even more yeah I love a glance that just communicates this fucking guy like I love I love an unspoken this fucking guy well he's obviously important

to like the historical record but the way that the movie like deals with British society the time. Like, it's really small, but, like, Fawcett's going on this mission because his father has ruined the family name. And, like, you see that in that fox hunt at the beginning, which could not have been easy to produce. Like, you know, I assume this movie didn't cost a fortune. And the fox hunt takes a lot. It was a stag hunt, right? Oh, yeah, you're right. A stag hunt. There's a horse that runs over a whole other horse. Five minutes into this movie. But, like, it tells you so much about, like, kind of the fake nonsense that these people are doing to

entertain themselves in this period and why someone would be like, I want to live real life. I just like, I love the way that it just keeps coming back to society and then you get Harry Melling at the Geographic Society and how much these people suck, but they're running the world. And Murray is such a distillation of all

of that. Well, and Murray sort of is that wolf and sheep's clothing, right? It's not even like, he doesn't have like sinister intentions. He's just an incredibly weak and vain, glorious man. But he also presents as like the one guy who believes Percy Fawcett, so he's going to join him on his shirt. And it just becomes revealed that, like, oh, you did this for your own personal glory, you, you know, you vain man.

That's great, though. This is absolutely a movie that could have been incredibly stodgy. And moments like that are really just like, there's such, there's a, there's a verve to this movie that that comes out in moments like that. Or in, again, the, you know, the scenes between people. Percy and Nina that don't have to be as, you know, charged with energy as they are. And it's much appreciated in a movie of this sort. Can we also talk about the photography in this? Darius Conji.

My God. Of all the ways that this should have found a way into the Oscar conversation. And I know that, like, the Oscars have gotten worse at seeking out movies that are outside the major. best picture conversation for Kraft Award achievement and like we're moving in the wrong direction on that unfortunately

but like this really should have made an exception for Darius Kanji and cinematography because it really is something else to look at yeah yeah and he's basically a James great guy now because he also shot Armageddon time I mean I get to the end with all those torches

and like I'm watching it on my like not great screen. I'm just like, oh, this is why movie theaters exist. Because like it looks, you can tell it looks good, but does it look the way that it's supposed to? I had my curtains fully shut. I like, I did everything that I could. This is a movie to lose a battle with the glare of a sun.

But like all those, even the scenes that are like in England at the beginning that are not even like the jungle scenes that are like lit totally by candlelight and just have this beautiful, like, glow to them, I don't know, the temperature in those scenes is very, I don't know, the sort of, the, it's not quite like decaying stateliness, but there's something communicated there. Oh, that's kind of the vibe, though. Kind of, right? Yeah, I mean, like, you think of the influences for this movie of, like, David Lean type of movies and, like, this is that, but, like, a rotting version of it or, like, something covered. in like ocean moss.

Yes. It's a very good way. It's the state rooms in the Titanic when they won't discover them. Well, I mean, like, as much as like the movie is a character study with like a less gilded point of view on these type of people that would like be

in David Lean movies, like I think you get that in the aesthetics of the movie too. Can we talk about, we've talked about 2017 and Amazon a ton on this. podcast in different contexts. We don't really have to like get too bogged down.

What have you guys covered from this year? I was trying to look back and figure out what the, are you just like, Oh, I meant from Amazon, but you're just talking about 2017 in general. Well, what are our Amazon's that we've talked about? Because I do feel like this is a subject we've returned to a few times. Because this is the Manchester by the sea year. That was 2016. 2016.

Okay. 2017 is the year that they go to the New York Film Festival and they're like, we have Wonderstruck and Last Flag Flying and Wonder Wheel and everybody's like, oh. None of which have we covered. So Lost City of Zed comes out when they have won Oscars for Manchester by the Sea very recently.

Like you would think they would have to release a movie and yet. I think we talked about this a lot in the Susperia and Life itself episodes, which are both 2018 but I think we sort of like just like walked down Amazon time. Yeah. Yeah. 2016, they're riding

so high from that Manchester by the C. Oscar, and they've beat Netflix to the punch. And then they have so much, I remember when I was at my old job, I think I did an article about like Amazon's 2017 is packed with auteur filmmakers and how lucky are we that we get a James Gray and we get a Gillian Robespierre movie in Landline and a new Mike White movie in Brad status, a new Todd Haynes movie, and Wonderstruck, a new link ladder movie, a new Woody Allen movie, which, you know, and it just felt like that was the streamer that had that year, at least, all the atoors. And even like they had, um, that movie that nobody saw the wall, the Doug Lyman directed movie, but it was like, it's Lyman, you know, everybody loves Doug Lyman. That is not Aaron Taylor Johnson. is that? Isn't it? I think it is Aaron Taylor Johnson. Is it Aaron Taylor Johnson? He seems like a

Do we have to play the game again, Chris? Do we have to go back? Do we have to do it again? Yes, it is Aaron Taylor Johnson. Oh, great. And that just like, and that move, that year, everything that they positioned for the end of the year flopping so hard. And I stick up for Wonderstruck, and we'll do Wonderstruck on this podcast at some point soon. And we'll both, I think, because Chris, you kind of like that movie, too. Yeah, I, while I will concede that it is my least favorite Todd Haynes movie, and I don't, I think it's his new strong movie. Todd Haynes has never made a bad movie.

Yeah. But I think it's just like, it was such a, across-the-board kind of a flop. And then they were not able to rebound in 2018 when they also had some pretty cool autours with, you know, Guadonino's Suspira. and what we thought was a really nice contender in Peterloo, Michaelese Peterloo, and they weren't able to make it happen beyond the fact that, like, as I've said before,

getting the nominations for Cold War that they were able to get was a real achievement that we really don't kind of talk about a lot. Kind of kicked off the trend, too, that, like, people now take it as, like, a thing. That there will be a best director from a foreign language film, Best director nominee from a foreign language film every year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so Lost City of Zed gets lost in that Amazon 2017 schedule.

The release in the spring kind of was the writing on the wall. I don't think anybody really expected it to be a presence in the awards conversation that year, which is too bad, and which is sort of like the James Gray thing. Like when I think Armageddon time has, is probably his most, well, let's back it up for a second. Because critics, I think, tried to make an Oscar case for The Immigrant, and it worked to the benefit of the Dardan movie, where Marion Cotillard gets the surprise best actress nomination, just not for the immigrant, which to me almost feels like, and maybe it's I'm projecting because I also felt that I was, being strong-armed into supporting Marion Cotillard for The Immigrant, but I liked two days one night.

What is it? Two days one night, yeah. Yeah. I liked that movie better, and I was glad that that was what she was nominated for. But I think the push for the immigrant was so much a reaction to Harvey Weinstein is trying to fuck with this movie, the way he's fucked with so many other movies in the past,

and let's not let him do that to a James Gray movie. So there was this, like, ground swell of support that felt very inside baseball, but, you know, a lot of things are inside baseball. But that felt like the closest that James Gray was going to get to Oscar contention until now, which Armageddon time has, there are some avenues available to it. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but, like, this is probably the most Oscar promise that he's had ever. Yeah, it's a distribution. reader that's backing him. It's coming out in the right season. Like, there are potentials in play. Yeah. And it's interesting that focus is giving it as strong a push as it is because they have tar. You know,

they've got their strongest contender in a long time. But they seem to have convinced James Gray to make a movie with them and they are, they're putting their muscle behind it admirably. Original screenplay is not that competitive. Supporting actors got some room to maneuver. Supporting actors all over the place. And like, I don't want to get too much into it because Chris, you haven't seen it yet. but, like, Hopkins is right in a sweet spot for what you would give. I think I mentioned it on here when we talked about New York Film Festival in that, like, there are similarities in the Hopkins character in this and the Judd Hirsch character

in Fableman's that I find very interesting. And if they both get nominated, it will be a very interesting sort of thematic thread. Anyone who had a Jewish grandfather will presumably be rejoicing if that happens. Yes. um what else do we want to talk about we didn't talk about tom holland we haven't sweet baby tommy tiny uh fake mustache baby tom holland i was so shocked to realize that he had played spider man already or he was about to no i guess yeah i don't think he had i guess no because i think civil war like the movie where he like first appears in that big airport fight scene was it already by then we all love a fight scene on the tarmac um yeah i don't

think his Spider-Man movie had come out yet. Right. Oh, God. His IMDB is such a crazy-ass mess. Civil War was probably right after this. Civil War is 2016 and in the spring. So this is the following year and then Spider-Man Homecoming comes out that summer. Right.

So everyone knows he's Spider-Man. Like he is like doing a mini version of the Robert Pattinson thing being like, I'm a franchise guy, but I'm in this too. But he's so good in this. Like he has to have that like big yelling at his dad scene. which can be so whiny teen and I think he pulls it off and then in the end when he's like trying to keep up

with his father and he's like so earnest and really lovely. It made me just want him to do his non-marval movies. Of the four main players in this movie, he was the one who had come

closest to an Oscar possibility, Oscar nomination possibility because they did push him for supporting actor for the impossible. He's really good.

good in the impossible. He's really good. He makes me cry in the impossible when he spots his brothers across that little straightaway there and he calls out to them and I fall two pieces at that moment. It's so good. You know I love sibling cinema and that is a triumph of sibling cinema. Katie, have you tried to watch that movie since you've done? No, God, I truly don't. Don't make her watch that movie? I don't think I can. I'm not making anybody. I'm just asking. I don't I'm just asking questions here. But, like, again, like, watching, like, this movie now with a kid who can do things, like, you want to share things in your life with your kid, and that's all Percy Fawcett's trying to do,

and it goes so badly, but, like, does it go badly? Like, is that where they're meant to be? Like, there's just, there's really beautiful stuff there. At what, at what age are you going to start getting the kids into... Lost City of Zed? Like, not specifically Lash City of Zad, but, like, sort of that kind of caliber. of like what's the what's the plan to ease them into more sort of like uh not grown up movies we've watched back to the future i took charlie to see avatar um which was a blast um so i feel

like there's like a i mean i watched like oklahoma and the music man when i was really little like my mom like i was just like the movies my mom liked so those movies that we like so i feel like yeah i want them to be aware that they're a stuff other than just like the Netflix garbage that they choose as much as possible. So like whenever I can get them to do that, I try. I feel like age 12 was around when I started watching movies that I remember watching like now, whereas like that's when I watched a few good men, that's when I watched the hand that rocks the cradle, that's when I watched, like, you know, that mixture of

movies that sometimes go over your head and sometimes you shouldn't be watching them because they are, you know, two are rated for you. but you find a way to watch them or whatever. Yeah. And I feel like that was around the time where that kind of started to happen, where I went from watching, like, kids' movies and renting, like, exclusively Looney Tunes videos at Video Factory to sort of moving into, then, like, watching movies. Yeah.

It was around age 12. I feel like Jurassic Park is a big watershed we're waiting for. Like, when are they ready for Jurassic Park? Because that's such a, like, great kids love dinosaurs, but, like, they're not ready for Jurassic Park, so we'll, we're going to hold on to that one for a while. Do you watch, like, the sound of music around the holidays? No, we should. I have, we've watched Wizard of Oz.

Like, that one has been in the rotation, which I, like, honestly, like, we're really going on tangents, but, like, Charlie, who is six, like, he loves catching references to things. Like, if you, like, we watched E.T. E.T. is another good one that, like, is kind of grown up. Totally. That's definitely one I watched when I was a kid. Yeah.

I mean, it's like four kids, but it's sad. But so we saw something else. that included someone writing in front of a moon and like Charlie like got the reference I was like look if you watch Wizard of Oz you will catch references in everything you ever see like there is a Wizard of Oz reference so it's like giving him the skeleton key

of like 100 years of movies so I hope it's painting out we'll have to when I finally make my North Carolina trek and come visit we'll have to yeah we're gonna come and watch you'll probably be like the thing is like you can't make a kid sit down and watch the thing when they know that Netflix exists

It's not like we were kids We got four tapes So we're going to watch one of them So they'll just be like No fuck you I'm watching Ridley Jones or whatever it is My efforts to We would do that

We would This is probably dating us a little bit But we would go to the video store And we didn't own a VCR yet And we would rent You'd rent the VCR I remember And rent that experience

And my brother and I Would get to rent a video and my sister would rent a video and like the way my dad tells it at least like we would get like a GI Joe video cassette and she would get a gem in the holograms but we would all watch them together we would all watch gem in the hologram and then we would all watch GI Joe and then we would like my dad would lay a blanket on the floor in the living room and it would be sort of like indoor picnic and we'd have our popcorn our like jiffy pop popcorn and our snacks and then we would tuck her out and whatever and then my parents would watch whatever sort of like of the plentiful adult thrillers you know what I mean like there were so many movies for them to choose from or whatever and and I would always as the oldest try an angle to like stay up and watch whatever they were watching at like like I would have had any kind of like enjoyment of like Gene Hackman and Mary Elizabeth Master Antonio in class action you know what I mean but like what am I going to get out of that but like that was what the grownups were watching so that's what I wanted to watch. And I don't know. Just I think that being the Friday night special event in our family really wired my brain for the movies in a way that like I think that's that was a big thing that did it for me. Yeah. Was that.

Yeah. I just listened. I just watched. Uh, this is also unlocking in my brain. Arias, they're doing the adventures and movie going or whatever it's called on Criterion Channel. And he talked about Friday nights being movie nights. and, like, going to the video store

and, like, swapping videos and such like that. And that's already unlocked my brain because we were, like, a Friday night go to the video store type of family. I definitely have a photo of myself of, because we were, like, blankets on the floor family watching Beethoven or, like, whatever. Yeah.

And I was also the kid who, you'll see this in photos of me, as a child. I would like hold the VHS of the movie that I was watching like it was a stuffed animal. That's so cute. I love that. I have seen my children do such a thing. Because like DVDs to them are like a novelty.

They're like, oh, it's here. It's like a physical thing that exists. Yeah. We don't have that many in the collection's insane. But yeah, this is our radicalization stories. How we went down the dark hat that we're on. I want to wrap up a couple of sort of miscellaneous for La Citi-Zat.

But it won best film at the Faroe Island Film Festival, a thing that I wasn't really aware of until Bergman Island last year where the wonder of Farrow Island sort of came. Definitely makes you want to go there. It does. It really does make you want to go there. It's a real good... Ghost each other on the Bergman tour. Yeah. That would have been a fun year to go to the Faroe Island Film Festival. Among others, La Citi of Zed competed along with...

American Honey, which I loved. Hell or High Water, which I really loved. Jackie, Manchester by the Sea, Raw, which fucking rules. And, like, what a great change of pace film festival movie. If, like, you know, you're feeling a little draggy, maybe towards the end and you need something to sort of, like, jolt you. See the Cannibalism movie. Sing Street. God love it.

I love that movie so much. Talk about a movie that deserved to get one Oscar nomination. and that was for that song, and they flubbed that so bad. That was Weinstein's, right? Wasn't it another classic, like, movie The Weinstein didn't care about? Awful. And then the salesman, of course, was also that year. That's a real good line.

That's just, like, a lot of bangers in that one. What a great, 2016, 2017. We were talking about this on text the other day. I didn't bring it up as I was, because I was researching for Lost City of Zed, but I brought it up, like, what's the best, best picture year of the, of, since they expanded it. And I think 2017, all those movies are 2016 movies, which I think the, the 2016, 2017 years are really good. If 2016 didn't have Haxaw Ridge, yeah. Like, that anchors it down like a, like a stone.

But, and then 2017, I think, even as somebody who doesn't love Phantom Thread, but I can, like, I can, like, I can, admit that, like, that's a me thing, not a, not a, you know, Phantom Thread thing necessarily. What a great best picture year. And what I love about 2017 is you've got, like, Dunkirk and Get Out, which are these just, like, big-ass, populist hits. And then you've got, like, Phantom Threat and Lady Bird, which make $2 and, like, call me by your name, which is, like, run on the power of Tumblr, like, the variety. Shape of Water is such a weird winner out of that bunch, because it's, like, the most

forgotten. Every year that goes by. It goes with a new woman masturbating, and it won best pictures. Every year that goes by, it gets, it's, it stands out as such an odd and yet wonderful, I think, that they went so odd, but like, choice for best picture. The fact that, like, any given best picture year can have Guillermo del Toro, Luca Guadino, Joe Wright, Christopher Nolan, Jordan Peel, Greta Gerwig, Paul Thomas Anderson, Steven Spielberg, and Martin McDonough. Like, that is just incredible. What an incredible lineup of filmmakers. Yeah, that best director lineup might even be better than the best picture lineup because it's got, like, you know, all those people you mentioned.

Yeah, it's great. Well, this was my thing that I was saying to Joe before we got on Mike, rewatching this movie, I was like, how is this movie not in, like, my top 10 of that year? And it's like, oh, yeah, because that year is crazy. Yeah. It's definitely in my top 10 of that year. I think Lady Bird was my number one. But it was probably, it had to be my top five. Less of these, I'm going to try to find it.

Also that year, though, I had a lot of those movies that had called me by your name in Lady Bird and The Post and Get Out. But, like, I also had BPM on my top of my list that year. Oh, my God. We did that on Little Boynton, those are pride flashbacks, BPM. Oh, so good. We rewatch it. have it. What a genuinely great movie. My other stories was that year.

I loved... Personal Shopper. Sure. Yeah. Killing of Sacred Deer. Faces, Places. Florida Project was that year. Our recent episode, Beatriz A Dinner. Yep. Yep. I had Mother on my top ten list, and I stand by it.

Princess Sid was that year, which is an incredible movie. A Ghost Story. Speaking of David Lowry. Professor Marston. and the Wonder Women. What a great year. I really loved it. Girls trip. Anything we want to say

about Lost City of Zed before we move into the IMTP game? I'm glad. The whole thing with the Amazon ness of it all, like... By that, do you mean the studio or do you mean the rainforest?

Because for this movie, you could go either way. Of course, of course. I mean the studio. you know, it feels like Amazon being, like, prestige producer or distributor for, like, this level of movie feels like a blip that has passed and, like, it's not really, they have, like, this year. What do you sing about my policeman, Chris? I was going to say, this year, they have an international feature contender or two and a documentary. and my policeman and it's like that's it but like for a few years they were turning out a lot of stuff and a lot of stuff that maybe didn't do well or didn't have uh you know didn't make as much of a mark but like i really felt it rewatching this movie versus like when we've talked about things like love and friendship you know and such that like this is the type of movie that doesn't really otherwise get made even though this was produced independently and amazon bought it

That, like, they're already starting to, like, be hard to get your hands on, or you're, like, wondering where they're streaming and such. Like, I'm glad that this movie will just, like, exist in perpetuity on Amazon time for people to just catch up to it. You think that. There will be some way for it not to exist on Amazon. I don't trust those people anymore. It's crazy we haven't talked. I feel like I have a physical copy of it somehow. I don't know why I would have gotten.

I think it got a physical release. Because I'm pretty sure that season, they didn't send a screener. They sent me a DVD. Oh. Yes. I think that's how I got it too, that. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes. It's crazy me that James Gray keeps getting funny for movies. And we haven't talked about Ad Astra at all, which is the movie he made. Dead Astra. Dad Astra. I love that movie. I love that movie. I love that movie.

It got overtaken from him by, it was 20th century Fox, so Disney. what would like did he want to make the ending even bleaker somehow no i think they added action scenes basically or they forced him to add action scenes yeah but like that chase scene on the moon's pretty good so yeah i don't know i feel like the monkeys had to beg all him i don't know that's my guess because that's the that's the thing about that movie i'm like ad aster is incredible maybe not the monkey's scene but maybe not what that movie does to kimberley alice And yet you also get a surprise Natasha Leon as a space receptionist, essentially. Like, God love it.

Yeah, I just like, I don't know why he keeps getting huge budgets to make his movies. I hope it never stops. I mean, Armageddon time, obviously, is a lot more modest than Zed and Ad Astra. But God love James Gray for keeping his Sisyphus of prestige cinema. Someday, it'll hit. All right, Chris, do you want to explain to our listeners, what the IMDB game is. Absolutely.

Listeners, every episode, we end the episode with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles

release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints, and that is the IMD game. Yes, it is. Katie, as our guest, as you know, this being your fourth time, you get the choice to either guess first or give first and also which direction does this round around. I'm so bad at this when it comes to be my turn. I'm ready to give, so I will go. I will give to Chris. All right. Who do you guys? Okay, so I went down on the American Woman route because, as we know, I'm the only one of the personal life who has seen it. And I was thinking about Brad Engelsby and Mary of Easton. As I said, Christina Hendrix is the close confidant in American Woman, but I went with Julianne Nicholson.

Has she been on this game before? I don't think so. She seems like someone you guys would pick. Well, I can look. I'll look right now, but I don't think so. But if it's not ringing about for Chris, I guess that's the only thing that matters. So. Nope. Chris

We have not Julianne Nicholson How much TV? None So no mayor of East Town No mayor of East Town

Which is wild She won a whole Emmy for that For a whole ass Emmy For Well August Osage County Yes Everybody on the poster

Is She's I gotta zoom in on that poster I'm sure she's in there somewhere She sure is Oh she's trying to pick up Julian Roberts

There she is Best performance in that movie um she's really good in it yeah i agree i'm there's no way blonde is on there god blonde is on there wow how crazy is that no she's good and blonde despicable part of that movie i still haven't seen it i mean let it float away into the ether show it could be a future this had oscar buzz movie though yeah don't watch it at this point because we may have to do it i don't know why we want to do an episode on it but no but we don't know what we want to do an episode on it but no but we should do, yeah.

It's going to be the one when we do our class of 2022 that like everybody clamors about. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Wow, blonde is on there. Okay, so what else could be there for Julian Nicholson?

This is hard because she has like, she's not a face blind this person, but she is everywhere. And I'm so hung up on Mayor of East Town not being there. I know. She did another movie called Tully. Is the other Tully there? No, I did not know she'd done another movie called Tully. In 2000. Wow. Okay. It's one X.

Oh, boy, why can I not remember her in other movies? It's hard. She was in... Oh, goodness gracious. This will be me in a hot. second so and the movie she has been in our movies that you know about like they're not totally anonymous yeah yeah i mean it's not mayor of east town but there is some other type of like murder mystery movie that i feel like spiritually i'm remembering her for being in it's not a murder

but there is uh an assault there are there are crimes associated with both of the other movies that you're looking for that is true Oh, okay. Chris, don't click on this, but I want Katie to click on this and see, and see the image now that is in my head from one of them. Wait, you leaned into the word crimes. Please don't tell me she's in, like, Crimes of Grindlewold. No, but, God, isn't that the classic movie, you guess, when you can't figure out what someone's been in? Okay, so you got your years, which are 2015 and 2017.

Okay. Both of these are post-August Osage County. Yes. Crime-based, 2015-2017. Is one of these like a heist movie? Possibly the 2015 one is. I don't honestly remember it that well. I don't think so, though.

I don't think you would call it a heist movie, but if you told me there was a heist in it, I wouldn't be surprised. So it's like a crime movie? Is it like a mob movie? I've fully seen this movie, and I don't remember specifically. Is it like a C-tier mob movie? Not C-tier. It certainly had Oscar buzz. You could cover it on this podcast. Yes. So no nominations. No nominations.

2015. There's a lot of 2015 movie. Yeah. And there's a lot of people in this who... But the main guy is somebody we would really not want to talk about. Yeah. Oh, somebody. Okay. So Johnny Depp Black Mass. Yeah. It's Blackmas. Nicely doing. All right. 2017 would not be coverable on this podcast. Right, because it's Oscar nominated. Oscar winner. Okay, 2017. We're going back to 2017.

Not three billboards, not get out. She totally could have been in three billboards, though. Not Darkest Hour. Not. We did not mention this title as we were running down 2017. We didn't. But it does have an Oscar. Although another movie that Katie and I saw together.

That's true. It got three Oscar nominations and one win. One win was the win for... Yes. Wouldn't have been for acting? No, it is acting. She's in it, Tanya. She's in I-Tanya.

I want you to click on that link that I put in the chat, Chris. And I want you to see Julianne Nicholson in full fur regalia in an I-tons. Is she Tanya's mother? Is that? She's Tanya's coach. Her coach. Yeah. I-Tanya got an editing nomination.

It sure did. I-Tanya not getting a best picture nomination probably happened by like the thinnest. Yeah, I'm just imagining us on Oscar Morning, seeing the editing nomination being like, okay, I guess this is happening. Well, because that's not a solid 10, right? Yeah, it's a nine. I feel like I've said it before that I-Tanya was next in line. Yeah. 100%.

100% it was. And in fact, the fact that call me by your name, God. nominated and that didn't it was probably like a real upset yeah well and i tanya was like an outside shot at getting like costume design nominations like they were pushing the costume team they were on the edge of getting like six or seven nominations i would say total it's where they didn't get in for screenplay when you think about it all right chris you're giving to me all right so i went into the james gray filmography and i went into i am sorry a movie you don't necessarily care for. The immigrant, somehow, we have not done, uh, along with his

eyeliner, Jeremy Renner. Along with his redacted that I won't say from a thing, a project that I won't even say, because I don't want to spoil anything. I get the joke. All right. Um, uh, Jeremy Renner. His app, run along with his app. A lot of eyeliner in the immigrants. No television. There's no television. What's his television? Well, the Hawkeye. Yeah, but those things aren't real. They don't show well to known force. Hawkeye's probably second to Wandavision in terms of the Marvel TV series that I liked the best.

Well, Haley Seinfeld's power. There you go. All right, so there's got to be, I would imagine there is an Avengers on there somewhere. And I'm going to say 2012's The Avengers. Correct. Okay. Whether there are any more, I'll put a pin in that. Oh, what's the title of that one?

The Born Legacy. Incorrect. Dang. The Temperime to takeover a franchise is so forgotten. Kems, Kems. Kems, not Stimms, Kems. What's the movie with Stimms? That's something else, too.

I know. That might be like a TV show, like the expanse or something. Um, Elizabeth Marvel, one scene of pure perfection in the Bourne Legacy, I will say. Oh, yes, I do agree with you there. Um, Jeremy Renner, Jeremy Renner, Jeremy Renner, the Hurt Locker. The Hurt Locker, correct. The Town. The Town, correct.

All right, both of its Oscar nominations. Renner, God, it'd be really funny if it was, like, tag. Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy. What else? I'm going to guess, I'm going to say Avengers end game. Incorrect to year. Oddly enough, 2017. Okay. 2017. We could cover that on that.

this podcast, but I would not want to. Also, a co-star with him in one of the incorrect guesses that you threw out. Very true. Oh. I'm not sure how helpful that is, though. So somebody who was in Avengers Endgame was also in this? Yes. Well, that does narrow it down to half of Hollywood instead of all in Hollywood. It's the kid from Iron Man Three.

His name is Ty Simpkins, but respect on his name. The writer-director of this is someone who I notably do not care for. And it has his own life. And we've talked about in recent episodes how I don't like this person. And it's currently thriving just to spike this file. Oh, it's, yes, it's Sicario, no, it's, but it's, but it's, um, no. But it's, uh, what is his name? It's that guy, though, right?

It's the guy who wrote Sicario. Maybe he wrote Sicario. Yes, he did. I didn't know that, actually. Yeah. Yes, he wrote. What the fuck is his name? We just talked about him like a second ago.

This is where my memory is going. I generally do think I'm going to get still Alist. I'll come and read Angels in America to you, sweetheart. What movie did he do in 2017? Because Hell or High Water was 20. Yeah, this is right after. Fuck. With Jeremy Renner.

We could do it on this podcast again. Oh, God. Why is this not coming to me? And the star of the other Marble show that you actually like, actually. Oh, oh, it's, oh, what is it called? It's the, um. There's no that. No, it's Wind River.

It's Wind River. It's River. Not Frozen River, the Mosulio one. which is where I get confused. Honestly, Jeremy Renner and Elizabeth Olson, and I've never seen Wind River, but I sound like a sap when I say this, but like Hawkeye and Scarlet Witch's friendship

in the Avengers movies is like one of my favorite things about the Avengers movies, and nobody else values it as much as I do, and it's kind of a bummer. It's the reason why I love, it's maybe the biggest reason why I love Avengers Age of Ultron so much more than everybody else, because it very much values their relationship.

Okay. That's everything, right? I got them all. Yeah. Wind River. What a weird thing to be on Jeremy Runners known for. It's really weird. All right.

Katie. Okay. I went back to James Gray's directorial debut, feature debut, Little Odessa, which is a movie I've not seen, but starred Tim Roth, among others. But one of the co-stars in that movie was one Moira Kelly. Oh, boy. So I'm going to ask what Moira Kelly is known for. she has one television show and one voice performance.

This may be a complete disaster for me because I'm sitting here being like Moira Kelly. I know I've seen her and stuff, but I don't, I truly don't know where to start. I just pulled it up and this known for is nuts. Joe, what have you done to me? I think this is getable. I can pick another one for you if you want, but I will say. It's totally getable, but like I didn't know that about the voice credit.

And now, really? Can I Google? I didn't know that. Can I Google her face? I'm just going to, like, I'm not going to look on IMDB. No, just look at, yes. I'm just going to, like, figure out who she is. Yes.

Oh, boy. I don't know, Joe. I don't know if I'm getting this. And I might have to ask for her redo. I'll give you, I'll give you, I thought Julianne Nicholson was too hard. All right. Morrill Kelly's pretty hard. James Graham.

All right. All right. Now I'm going to look up what the hell she's been in. She's on one tree hill. Never would have gotten that. She's Nala! She's the voice of Nala in the Lion King. She's...

She's... She's... She's... She's... You're not responding to Moira Kelly's name immediately with the cutting edge probably was the clue that you weren't going to be able to get that. Okay. All right.

That's fine. Was she on actual Twin Peaks or is she just in Firewaffe with me? She's just in Firewaffe with me. No, she's a recast of Lara Flynn, Goyle. Yeah, and I've seen Twin Peaks, but not that movie. Oh, she was on the West Wing. That's where... That's where the journey is coming in there.

Then she was exiled forever because of... nobody liked her character. I remember her now. Okay. Hold on. She's still working. She's in something called by Southern Family Christmas. Okay.

This is somebody who we did in one of our very earliest ones, but since Chris has opened the door for us to redo those ones, I'm going to pass it to as well. You are going to get one of the stars of Ad Astra, the aforementioned Ad Astra. Mr. Tommy Lee Jones of Lincoln, which we've been texting about all the time. Indeed, the very same. Well, I'm going to start with Lincoln. Correct. Okay.

Did I ask for a better one? I hope this is, if this is too easy, I mean, if you're really embarrassed, you're like, you're like, oh, this dummy couldn't get anything. I'm going to guess the fugitive. Correct. Okay. I'm going to guess men in black. No, surprisingly no.

Okay. Now it's getting more interesting. I'm not thinking of the movie he's in that I saw the trailer for before Titanic a million times, which I don't think is going to be on there. Is that U.S. Marshals? Oh, yes. But it's not Hard Rain, which is when I always were made and to take it forward because I think there's all these shots of them in the rain in U.S. Mars. Is he the guy in Hard Rain?

Hard Rain, I thought, was Morgan Freeman. No, I think it's like Morgan Freeman and Christian Slater. Or Gary Seney. It is Christian Slater. Yeah. But both of those trailers played before Titanic. But I probably, I'm going to guess U.S. Marshals. Incorrect, not U.S. Marshals.

So that's two strikes. So your missing years are 2007 and 2014. Oh, 2007 is in the Valley of Ella. It is not, in fact. Weird. He got an Oscar nomination for that. Oh, but it's no country for old men. It is no country for old.

And you say 2014. That's a big movie. He's so much of that movie. I'm going to go and make sure that this didn't get actually released in 2015, but it's listed as 2014. Hold on. I'm pretty sure it was, and I can't say why. That probably means it's not what I was going to guess, which was Hope Springs, the movie with the therapy movie in Merrill Street. I can't remember if that was.

I'm Hope Springs. Yes, it did get released in 2014 in the States as well. Yeah. Huh. It's not an Asthma, but it's something that would be, like, festivoli. It is, something that was festivoli. And it's not like the three burials of blah blah blah because that was weird. No, but follow that path down.

Did Tommy Lee Jones direct this movie? Okay. Perhaps. Tommy Lee Jones directed movie in 2014. Is it like a westerny kind of vibe? It is. Oh, is it the Homesman? The Homesman.

Another movie we've talked a lot about this. Have you never covered that movie? Jones. The Homesman. That's a good movie. Better than I thought it was going to be. I was not expecting to enjoy that movie at all when I saw it, and I liked it better than I thought.

That was such a end of Oscar season being like, am I ever going to get to this? I don't know why I got to it, but I liked it. In the great pantheon of just hilarious Hillary Swank character names to go along with Betty Ann Waters, second to Betty Ann Waters is her playing Mary B. Cuddy in The Homesman. Like, just perfect. I think Tomi Lee Jones just calls her Cuddy the entire time

as like a sign of respect. Can I say I... What's the picture is in Alaska Daily? I want to see if it's insane in that. There are billboards for Alaska Daily here in Durham. Wow. We never get billboards like that. I have no idea why.

Amazing. Yeah. I mean that... Eileen Fitzgerald. That's more norm core, I feel like, for Hillary. Yeah. My certain type of brain damage is that I, knew that that movie did open

in 2014 because I am positive. She was on the Hollywood Reporter Actress Roundtable for the Homesman. Wow. That makes sense. That makes sense. Let me listen, because I do have a Hollywood Reporter Actress Roundtable spreadsheet. Let me open the spreadsheet.

While you do, I just want to say for the listeners listening, if you were playing along, Moira Kelly is known for are the cutting edge Twin Peaks Firewalk with me, where she did play Donna Hayward recast from Larson Boyle. She was the voice of Nala and the Lion King, and she played Karen on the WB, the CW's One Tree Hill for eight bichillion areas.

See, I could have tortured myself over One Tree Hill and never. Well, One Tree Hill, I would have just said, was set in your neck of the woods and and filmed there, I would imagine. Dawson's Creek certainly was. Yes. Yeah, I think Wontry Hill was. I think I went to a Cephizet in Wilmington, and they had like a, like, Wentry Hill had just wrapped

and you could, like, see all the remnants of it. Lossity of Z, I finally found it. It was number four on my top 10 of 2017. What were your top three? Lady Bird, call me by your name, Dunkirk, LaCity of Z, and then get out. What a great top four. Yeah, then BPM was six. God, what a great year.

Oh, I put stronger as number 10. I don't know if I would stand by that. Stronger. I like stronger. Stronger was the boxing one or the 9-11? Or the Boston Marathon one? South Paul. What was the boxing one?

South Paul the boxing one? Yes. With Jay. Rachel McAdams. Yeah, I never saw that one. So Hillary Swank was on that Hollywood reporter, actress roundtable for the Homesmen, along with Amy Adams, but this is not the one where they talk about people like us. No, that's 20.

That was the second time that Hillary Swank and Amy Adams shared. Hollywood Reporter Act. Wait, what was Amy Adams on for 2014? Is that Big Eyes? Trouble with the curve? Trouble with the curve? Wow. Yeah, Big Eyes was 2015, and American Hustle was 2013, so sandwiched

in between those two was trouble with the curve. Let me look. Yeah, she would have been for Best Act. No, she's there for Big Eyes. Big Eyes is 2014. Oh, Big Guys is 2014. Okay, okay, all right. And yes, she did nothing in 2015. Okay. I came back with a rival. Worth the wait. Very much.

worth the weight. All right, Katie, once again, we just love having you back on here. I am delighted. It is like mashed potatoes and gravy and pumpkin pie. It is our favorite Thanksgiving tradition is having Katie on our podcast. Thank you so much for joining us and we will see you this time here next year. So about Everest, I guess. Yeah. Right around actual Thanksgiving, we have to plug this. We will be recording. The three of us are going on screen draft to talk about best picture follow-up films. Yeah. Which will be on screen drafts in December at some point.

So keep your ears peeled. If you wondered why we didn't talk about Lawrence of Arabia while talking about movies about white men venturing in places where they don't belong. Stay tuned. Yeah, we're trying to keep our opinions fresh on all of these things, which is why I wasn't able to talk about Mern-a-Loy on text with you guys last night, even though. Because in two separate threads with Joe, I was like, we can't. Talk to me about Myrna Loy.

We have a strong boy band for a couple more weeks. All right. Listeners, that's our episode. If you want more, This Had Oscar Buzz. You can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.tumbler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Katie Rich, where can the listeners, where of the plentiful places online can the listeners find you in your stuff? I'm on Twitter, which I guess is controversial now, but I'm on Twitter until something else happened.

I've been trampled into the dust. You can scrape me off of the ground and deposit me wherever else everybody ends up after this. I'll be in that basket with you. So I'm at Katie Rich, K-A-T-E-Y-R-I-C-H, and I'm on the Little Gold Men podcast at Vanity Fair and on Fighting in the War Room also. Fiting in the War Room. Which is where I do top tens. I had to go to Fighting in the Warroom.com to find my 2017 top 10.

Nice. What was your latest quarter quell at Fighting in the War? I always love this. I think it was a live show. Oh, which I Which I Watched all of, I think That you streamed it right?

Yeah, the live streamed Yeah It was really fun I was on that one And I was scoping out the cute listeners That you have Oh yeah We had such

Yeah, that one was really fun So hopefully we'll do that again soon All right Chris Where can the listeners When I do on your stuff You can find me on Twitter And Letterbox at Chris V file That's FIL

I am on Twitter and letterboxed At Joe Reed read-spelt, R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and the great Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievous for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility.

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that's no lie you never fail to satisfy it's no Thank you.