This Had Oscar Buzz - 230 – Stage Beauty

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

Longtime listeners will know that a special space in our podcast lore is reserved for our first six timer, Claire Danes. This week, we return to her work in the opulent and forgotten Stage Beauty. The film cast Danes as a stage dresser who longs to be an actress in a time when women weren’t … Continue reading "230 – Stage Beauty"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. By law, no woman was permitted to act. It's illegal.

I just wanted to do what you do. What we want are surprises. Exactly. I think it might be fun to see women on the stage. She might just splash things up a bit. Permission to perform is hereby granted. A woman playing. A woman, what's the trick in that?

I just wanted to act. I have worked half my life to do what I do. What teacher did you learn from? I had no teacher. But then I had less need of. training. I have taken nothing that belonged to you. You wear my clothes, you play my part, you live my life, and you've taken nothing.

Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast getting into some real grown woman shit. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died

and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with the first lady of the stage, Joe Thank you. I appreciate that. I... First Lady, as in, you are the premier, preeminent actress, not the premier as in first female identifying person to take the stage. I'm first lady of the stage in very much the way that Carlotta is first lady of the stage in Phantom of the Opera. Oh, yes, yes. I am merely a Tenardier in search.

of what's the other character in Le Miz Oh that's the wrong musical Yeah you're throwing in Tenardier here I don't understand what you're doing to me Oh rest in peace phantom of the opera I'm not going to get to see you before you close So is it now really closing again?

I think it's for real closing in maybe April That's a bummer Oh Andre and Furman I am an Andre I am a hair Andre I'm not hair, Andre. Jesus, it's early. We're recording this early because we are both very busy people.

Yes, yes. With a lot going on. Phantom of the Opera, not the movie we're here to talk about because Phantom of the Opera has multiple Oscar nominations. However, we will get into it. This very year, in fact, right?

It was 2004, yes. Yes, the very same year that we're talking about and we're talking about the same globe's comedy races as stage beauty. Yes, indeed. A movie that we've been like, we should talk about stage beauty, we should talk about stage beauty.

Had you seen it before? I had not seen it before. Oh, very interesting. Had you seen it before? I had, I saw it in theaters. This was my, during my great heyday of the college, the theater in North Buffalo that I would go to before my job at the college library. And so like 2002 through two,

2005 or six-ish was like, that was the golden age of that. So this was right, like 2004, I remember a lot very, very vividly. This was like, it was this and Huckabees and, oh, God, Kinsey. That October-November window, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. What a great time. Of 2004. What a time to be alive.

What a time to be supporting independent cinema that looks like very expensive independent cinema. Yes. The age of expensive independent cinema is... 2004, specifically. Yeah, it's interesting. This was a Tribeca Films production, which... Which is why it played the Tribeca... It premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival, which, you know, Tribeca Film, that's why Robert De Niro is listed as a producer credit. As a producer, right, Robert De Niro and Jane Rosenthal.

Would this have been, like, the first or second? Tribeca Film Festival, right? Because it started right after 9-11. It started an 0-2. So it would have been the third. Wow. So it started like right because I remember it being like a thing that De Niro and Rosenthal had started as a

sort of like bring people back to the city sort of revitalized downtown kind of a thing. And so the third one, that's interesting. Tribeca has grown into something so super wild when I've looked at you know, especially the

You know, everybody had to get creative during the pandemic, but it really feels like Tribeca is all over the city in, like, different locations doing outdoor screenings, indoor screenings. Yeah. They've never been able to settle on a central hub that they like. When I first covered it, it was at the now closing Chelsea Theater on 23rd Street for the most part. And then they moved most of the screenings to, the Battery Park cinema, which is sort of located inside a hotel, which I really like, but it is quite out of the way of sort of the hustle and bustle of everything else. Was this your secret New York cinema that you would always go to and profess that it was never crowded, but you would never tell anyone which one you would go to? Okay. Yes. That was Regal Battery Park. Um, and- You wouldn't reveal your secrets? It was kind of an open secret because like, anybody who went there sort of, like, knew, and it was only a matter of, like,

were you willing to put in the, you know, the legwork to go there? Because it's, like, I mean, like, it's right by the World Trade Center, so the trains all go there, but then you have to, like, cross the West Side Highway to get to the other side and the battery park to get to it. I think I stayed in this hotel as, like, a teen. Yeah? It was a nice hotel. Because I remember staying in a hotel that had a movie theater in the basement.

Oh, this is a movie theater like upstairs, though. So maybe you're thinking of a different hotel. There is a movie theater, though, that maybe fits that bell that is sort of in that Tribeca area. No, I can't think of it. Anyway, so this was your first time seeing it. So I'm seeing it with, you know, almost 20 years removed. And I remember at the time being positive on the movie, but really knocked out by the Billy Crudeup performance. And in retrospect, I was sort of worried that, like, was I really into that performance

because he's like the most beautiful a person has ever looked in their entire life in this movie? And I'm watching it again. Spending most of the movie in various disrobed. His, but it's his face in this movie. And like, so watching it again, I'm like, well, he's still the most beautiful person I've ever seen in a movie. But the performance is what I remember it being. it's a really, really phenomenal, fantastic performance in a movie that this time frustrated me more than it did the first time around. And I'm wondering what your experience with it was.

It's interesting to hear you say that you were more frustrated on this watch than your initial watch, because this was my initial watch, and I actually had a really good time with this movie. I thought it was really fun. I think it, like, I think it dances between some really, really good observation. while also being a little bit blunted in its understanding of things like gender and where the audience's sympathies should be directed, or at least like where these characters should be allowed to find their fulfillment. You know what I mean? The fact that this movie ends where it ends annoys me more now than it did then. Well, see, I, I mean, I very much was watching it through the, like, gays of, or through the lens of I'm watching a 20-year-old movie that if this movie was made today, it would probably be more interesting. But I think even for 20 years ago, it's still pretty interesting. You know, Billy Crutup is a probably bisexual character who is also obviously, obviously, you know, going through a certain type of gender, not discovery, but like, journey in terms of like.

The whole movie is about what performing different gender roles does for him and like, and allows him to express about himself. And what certain gender roles when he's performing them, he feels limited by. Yes, yeah. Which I find way more interesting than a lot of, especially at, as mainstream as this movie would be, a lot of mainstream movies of this era would have done. And, like, that I was kind of surprised by. I was expecting mostly a fluffy, you know, costume drama. And it's not that.

And I do think it's actually very satisfying on those regards. But my thing is, I have no problem sort of accepting the conception of this character as bisexual, more so than I would have back in 2004, when I was just like, well, he's gay. I think just because a character is bisexual doesn't obligate you then to pair him up with the female lead by the end of the movie. I don't think, like, that doesn't, it still doesn't track for me, that that's where this movie was leading. The thing that I like at the end of the movie is when, because they have been playing those games of, you know, who's the man now? Are you, are you the man who's the woman?

I love that scene. I have to say, I love that scene. scene. And the fact that the movie ends and she says, she asks him, well, which one are you now? And he says, I don't know. And the movie is happy to leave it there. That feels pretty progressive to me for 2004. So like that part I like, for sure. It's the, I just, I don't, even after that scene in the bed where they're sort of rolling around and who's the man and who's the woman, I still don't see that as being pretext for a romantic union at the end of this movie, rather than just sort of like... You just want them to be friends who fuck? Kind of, like, a bisexual guy and this girl who's sort of figuring out what, you know, her acting style is going to be. And, like, that almost feels like an acting exercise more than, like, a romantic thing, right?

Where they're playing power games. Sure. Yes. I agree. Yeah. So, and I wish the movie could have... It's a romance because we're watching a movie, and it has to be a romance. That's, yes, yes. So it's like, that's an annoyance. I think part of the first half of this movie, I was kind of... kind of in a defensive crouch being like, oh, God, I hope this movie isn't like crypto-turf. Well, crypto-turphy in a way, where it's like, you know, men should not be dressing as, I remember it being more feminist in that like the, and I remember it being more, less complicated in the idea that the Claire Dane's character is getting to act now because it is the feminist sort of arc.

to the world that women now get to take their rightful place as women, and men, you know, are no longer usurping women's roles and, you know, that kind of thing. And I was like, it's England. And the one doing the gaslighting, gatekeeping, girl bossing, is Billy Crudeup in drag? Well, yeah. And just sort of like, now everything that happens in England with regards to gender, I'm very crouching, defensive about turfy shit. So, like, and it didn't, like, it stayed on the right side of that as far as.

I thought, at least. So I was happy about that. It doesn't, she's a more complicated character than I remembered, where, like, the, the movie allows her to have to learn things. She just doesn't come, like, prepackaged as a perfect actress to the stage, and the movie invests in having them learn from each other in bouncing off male and female roles. Right, right, right. It's a lot more muddled.

as with regard to gender in a good way. Like, in a, you know, it's not very black and white. It would also be a very different movie if she was this prolific or like prodigious talent without having a stage experience. And the movie, I think, is smarter and more interesting and gives her something to do that makes the movie have more longevity. I say have more longevity, but this isn't exactly a movie that's like, stamped on the culture.

Nobody remembers this movie, unfortunately. Then if she was, you know, the kind of more simplistic, obvious thing that I think a movie today might do, where it's like, she's this incredible actress and she is the best there has ever been and she is limited by the time she was born. And it's like, she's limited by the time she's born, but it's also that she's limited in her opportunity to learn, grow as an artist. she just wants it at the time. And I don't know. That surprised me too because I was expecting the kind of simplistic, you know, type of easy sell down the middle, like, you go girl type of story. And it's like, it isn't not necessarily that, but I think it allowed for her character to do,

to have a more interesting arc. I still think he is head and shoulders above everything else in this movie. I think the crude-up performance is one of his best, one of the best of that year. And we'll get into later my sort of my best of 2004 list because I want to talk about that. But I think it's an incredible performance. I think it's really wonderful to watch him. What a great role for it. And it's like he, he now.

has sort of graduated to being our premier smarmy dickhead kind of and he plays those rules really well you know what I mean and to various degrees whether it's spotlight or the morning show or whatever and this is just a very very different role than pretty much anything he's ever done in the rest of his career although I haven't seen everything that he's done

on stage well we should talk a little bit about his stage career too because like yeah it's also interesting that he's taking this role too and doing so well in this role because it's like this is before he really becomes like a I mean he's always been on the stage but like before he got his Tony he had his first Tony nomination at this point right right um yeah he sort of became for a while there far more renowned for his stage work than uh his screen work that was sort of his

like in between time. I've only seen them in one thing. I saw them in the revival of Arcadia that they did around maybe 2011. I don't know. I was going to say you didn't see all 11 hours of the coast of Utopia? No, the Coast of Utopia was around the time that I had first moved to the city. And I didn't really get into the swing of seeing like a lot of things on Broadway for a few years. So I did not see the coast of Utopia.

Now looking back, I'm like, you know, it sounds arduous, but also sounds very interesting in the cast of that. It's tremendous. Worth it. But he was really good. He was in Arcadia with who was in that. Bell Powley was in that one. And Grace Gummer and he had been in the original production of Arcadia, I thought. And now as an adult, he was playing this other role.

I think that's right. Wait, wait, I want to, I'm, I'm, I'm, oh, Margaret Collin, who was in Independence Day, who was Jeff Goldblum's estranged wife and Independence Day, and is also in Three Men and a Baby. She was in that, Danny's estranged sister. Yeah, uh, no, Colin, like, C-O-L-L-A-N, not Collins. Um, wait, I want to, I want to find, uh, who was in this cast, though, so hold on a second, because it's going to bug me otherwise. Come on, Internet Broadway database, load quicker.

Can we talk about Internet Broadway database? Sure, thank you for staying so rudimentary Internet Broadway Database. You are a reference source and you know it. The second Amazon gets a hold of you, you will be so ugly and useless, just like happened with IMDB, just like happened with Box Office Mojo. Stay in your lo-fi form, Internet Broadway database. and if you want lo-fi internet off-Broadway database, we salute you. 100%. I was right that it was 2011.

It was Billy crude up Margaret Collin. I forgot Raoul Asparza, of all people, who was a great played... Speaking of beloved bisexuals. 100%. Grace Gummer, I remember Bell Pauley, which was like... That was like introducing Bell Pauley. That was before she was in... Oh, what's the...

Diary of a Teenage Girl. Thank you. Dari of Teenage. Girl, the Mario Hellen movie, and then Tom Riley, who played Septimus Hodge, who was really, really great. I walked away with that being a very, very big Tom Riley fan. Anyway, good production of Arcadia, but that's the only time I had ever seen Billy Crudeup on stage, and he is kind of one of my favorite actors, sort of like low-key, one of my favorite

actors, and I had seen him on stage in the Pillow Man, who was taking their children to see the Pillow Man, my father. Yeah. Good production. Michael Stoolbarg, the first time I ever saw Michael Stoolberg. There you go. Playing, yeah, that's why we don't produce The Pillow Man anymore. Why?

See, I only know of the fact of the Pillow Man. I don't know what that story is. It's very vague about this character's cognitive situation. but Michael Stolberg played it to the full R-sler, to quote, Tropic Thunder. This was Martin McDonough's big breakthrough? It was his first thing? I believe for Broadway, but the cripple of Inishman had been in New York before.

I see. I just forget if that was on Broadway or not. Okay. Very interesting. Jalcovannic is in that production, and Jeff Goldblum is also in that production. Joe Govonik was very good. Nice. All right, well, I don't want to get too far into stage beauty before we do the plot, I guess,

because, like, odds are our listeners, if you're listening to this, you may have, may not have seen this. I will say, I watched this movie on the Roku channel, good commercials for free. I watched it on a crummy library DVD. There you go. This is a good, this is a good movie, though. It should be more well-known than it is Richard Eyre, of course, would go on to make movies that people pay more attention to. better queer cinema with Notes on a scandal. Yes. We should also, eager to talk about our TIF screening of Alleluia, which is the list. Oh, yeah. I was like, are we going to have to get into that again? We can't too much because it hasn't come out yet, and there is a spoiler aspect. Yeah, well, spoiler. Spoiler alert. Listeners, we are here to talk about stage beauty, not as I proposed it to Joe, the, uh,

RuPaul Star Booty sequel, Stage Booty. Listen, for a while there in this movie, there is one scene at least where Stage Booty kind of applies. Listen, Stage Booty is constantly on the table in this movie. Like, if this was made by a hornier director, there would be a lot more stage booty. Yeah. As it is, there's a tantalizing amount of stage reading. I mean, Ben Chaplin's balls. We'll get into it. You did text me just Ben Chaplin's balls. Basically, that was the text that was it that I got from Chris Weil. It's not a Saturday afternoon. Ben Chaplin's balls. And I knew what he was talking about. Thank God. Or else we would have had a very interesting conversation. We'll get into it. We'll get into it. Once again, we're here talking about stage beauty directed by Richard Air, written by Jeffrey. Hatcher, based on his play, complete female stage beauty, starring our favorite, our

original patron saint, Claire Daines. We'll get into that. It's been a minute for us with Claire, I will say. It's been a minute for us with Claire. It has been quite a minute. Put her on the shelf for a little bit. New listeners won't understand, but we got, Claire Daines is the reason we have the six-timers club, right?

She was our first, shockingly. Yes. And, well, not maybe shockingly. but we kind of stumbled into it, this conversation where we're like, is Claire Daines, the queen of our show? We've talked about her a lot, and we are 50 episodes in. Well, our last one that we did with Claire Daines, though, was me and Orson-Wells, which was episode 122, and this is episode 2.30. So, like, it's been a minute since we've visited Claire. How many has she hit now?

Is this, like... Eight. She's eight, yes. She hit that six, though, very quickly. Very quickly. Six in our first 89 episodes, which is like a pretty good clip. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, starring Claire Dane's. Billy Crude Up, we're going to get into that. Tom Wilkinson, Rupert, Rupert, Hugh Bonneville, my boyfriend, Hugh Bonneville, Zoe Tapper, Richard Griffith, Ben Chapplin, Alice Eve, and Tom Hollander. I did not make note of Tom Hollander in this movie, and I've seen it not twice. is the man that does the portrait of her that's like if we're going to make you a star

you have to show your boo I was looking I was I guess doing making notes or looking at other things or whatever well he also weirdly has a less ostentatious wig than anybody else in the movie but it does have a full Rachel bang right I do like that Rupert Everett in this movie when he takes off his wig it's full Deanna Dunnigan in August H. You know, where it's just sort of struggling wisps, yeah. Yeah, Zoe Tapper runs in and screams, I'm running things now. Basically, honestly, that's kind of the plot. That should be my whole description.

Zoe Tapper runs in and says, I'm running things now. That's, yeah, that's the restoration for you. The movie premiered at the Tribeca Festival in May of 2004, became a TIF Gala. the same year, 2004, and it opened limited in October 8th, 2004. Joe, you are tasked to give a 60-second plot description this week. Are you ready? Sure. All right, then your 60-second plot description of stage beauty starts now.

It's the restoration era, baby, and the greatest actor of viewing the stage is Ned Kinniston, who plays all the female parts in the great works of theater, because only men are allowed by law to perform on the stage. He's currently playing Desdemona to manored perfection, and life is pretty good. He's basking in the praise of critics, upper crust groupies alike and bottoming for the Duke of Buckingham. Ah, but the winds have changed due blow. Women like his dresser Mariah are starting to act in unsanctioned barroom performances. And when King Charles's mistress, Nell Gwyn, gets a bee-up or bustle about wanting

to act herself, the king makes a decree that not only can act on stage, but women only can now play female roles. Ned's life turns to shit pretty quickly. He can no longer act in the parts of the thrill of soul. He gets beaten up by the aristocrats who once flattered him. The Duke of Buckingham has dumped him to go marry a woman, and now Mariah is the toast of the town, even though she's not really that good at acting yet. One night, Mariah pulls Ned out of Flop House, where he's performing a degrading mercen act and takes him home, where they almost have sex while he's also just kind of teaching her what being verse is. Anyway, while Ned's old company is called upon to perform Othello for the king, Ned has begged

to come back and teach Mariah how to play Desdemona, and the two of them together kind of help her invent naturalistic acting, while Ned finally learns how to play a male role at the same time, which is a triumph in blackface, which is never not uncomfortable, and then it all ends with them kissing, which I guess is a by triumph, but definitely a bummer for Mary Louise Parker, the end. All right, eight seconds over time, you got Mary Louise Parker in there. we will get into it, we'll get into it, we sure will. Triumph of Blackface, yes, that is the worst thing about this movie.

However, it... This could have been about any other, any Shakespeare play, and they chose to make it Othello, which is like... Genuinely take a shot every time I say just a moment in this movie. You need to have the scene where he's trying to kill her. I guess that's like, that, like, that, yes, I guess you do maybe need to have it be a fellow, but like, goo, I'm, like, pulling at my collar. they do they do kind of poke fun at the historical truth of it too because you have that scene

where tom wilkinson who at the beginning of the movie is the actor playing othello and the basically stage door they had stage doors back then or the movie says they did uh they're going up to this guy and they're like are you an actor too and tom wilkinson is like yes i played othello and they're like, we don't recognize you. And it's supposed to be like, look how awful all of that was and look how stupid. I was trying to figure out, because in this movie that is very much about women finally getting to play the roles of women in things, to have actors in Blackface playing the role of Othello, I guess maybe is like, I guess the idea is like that's commentary in and of itself. and I wonder like I think in 2023 that's maybe not sufficient no I mean it should feel like that's more inherent that the movie is gesturing towards that you know that black actors weren't playing black roles or you know anyone non-white was not playing a non-white role but yeah it doesn't feel like the movie gestures towards that or maybe it just trusts its audience maybe I'm being too hard on it maybe this is a movie that just sort of trust itself

audience to sort of look at that and be like yeah look how fucked up things were in other ways um and maybe i'm not giving the audience enough credit but i was i also am like there is i allow for the possibility that i have been poisoned by discourse irrevocably and i watch something like this and i'm like no people are going to be weird but it's also right there in what the movie's doing so i don't know if you're wrong to question that because it's like well you're unpacking this but you're not really even making a comment about this. Sure, sure. I mean, I think it kind of is with that joke,

but maybe it's not enough. Good movie. Otherwise, I like this movie. Yeah. It is a good movie. For as much as I was, as I said, I think more frustrated by it, I the good parts of it sort of

elevate it. And I don't want to be sort of unnecessarily again, sort of like, worried about how people would take the gender aspects of this. Because it is an interesting tale. I think Richard Eyre tends to gravitate. He didn't write this, obviously, but he tends to gravitate towards thornier stories, right? Even sometimes when they aren't there, which we'll talk about alaulia later, where... Alalooia is an attempt to make some, to kind of crunchily make.

something more thorny that it is. And it does not work. And it doesn't work. I don't think. I remember sitting next to you and I involuntarily went, oh, no. And I think I was probably making that same note in my notebook as I was watching it because it's just like, because you almost can't believe, again, we're not going to get into spoilers because this is a very new movie.

If you go and see Richard Ayers, Alleluia, Starring. 80% of the movie is fully watchable and kind of lovely. And fine. And nice. And it was very late in the festival, and we're like, we're going to go see a nice British comedy about nice people and working at a palliative care center. And it takes a very hard left turn towards the end of that movie. At the final five minutes. That the movie, the rest of the movie, just cannot support the weight of the turn.

It's like a, you know when you can almost like, you can tell. tell that a truck is making a turn that is too tight for it to make. And you're like, you're going to have to back up. And then the truck overturns, and then the bed of the truck cracks open when it hits the pavement and fruit goes everywhere, making this. That is, hallelujah, yes. Go see it. Yeah.

Judy Dench, we don't know how much longer we're going to have Judy Dench and, you know. I know. Judy, was it you that said Judy Deng, this movie said, Mama, let's research. Judy Dens learns how to use an iPad, guys. She does. She becomes an investigative journalist. Yeah. Well, first of all, I said that because at TIF, I showed you.

I could not stop saying it just to make you. Well, because you were like, where does Mama Let's Research come from? And so I showed you the Gina Rodriguez tweet that inspired the Mama Let's Research. Is it Gina Rodriguez or Michelle Rodriguez? No, it's Gina Rodriguez. Jane the Virgin. Why did I think that it was Michelle? I don't know.

It's funny or Michelle? You lost your mind when you read that tweet. And then for the rest of the entire Fortnite, you made Mama Less research jokes about literally everything. It was great. Truly everything. It was like you had a shiny new toy and you were just going to play with it the entire time that we were there. It was great. Richard Eyre.

Yes, Richard Eyre. Richard Eyre, who was. spent a decade as the artistic director of the National Theater and that's like how he got his name. He had done some TV movies and such beforehand and I believe one or two movies that I don't think are that available.

Iris was the big like movie breakthrough for him in 2000? 2001. 2001. That's right. Three acting nominations wins for Jim Broadbent who also has Muon Rouge that year. Probably I think

Hugh Bonneville, to me, is the best performance in that movie. You do love a Hugh Bonneville, and he's also in this movie. He's so cute in that movie. He's playing Samuel Pepys in this one. He's so handsome. But, like, the only one of that ensemble between Judy Dedge, Kate Winslet, and Broadbent. That doesn't get a nomination. Jim Broadbent is playing the same character, but older and gets an Oscar.

Well, because they nominate Broadbent and supporting and not lead, even though, and I'm of the mind that, like, Broadbent and Mulan Rouge is, is the performance that you nominate for him. I still probably give the Oscar to Ian McKellen, both because I loved Ian McKellen in that role as Gandalf, but also I think Ian McKellen should have an Oscar. And by that point, he hadn't won for Gods and Monsters. So, like, I feel like that was the time to give him an award, and we missed it, unfortunately.

You know how I feel about Lord of the Rings, but I might be swayed to giving it to McCollin just because he doesn't have an Oscar, and it's shameful. It's too bad. This is a good cast in this movie, though. I think everybody's sort of working. Even like Tom Wilkinson, who like doesn't really get an arc as much, but like every scene he's in, he's doing good work,

and he's interesting to watch. And he's like, his line readings are really good. A lot of the actors in this movie just showed up for like a week and then had some fun and did a good job. I actually really liked Rupert Everett in this movie, too. Rupert Everett. Everett, who gets to, you know, wear some fun wigs. Rupert Everett never seems like he's going off of a script in this movie.

He just seems like he shows up on set and sort of like, give me the gist of like what I'm doing in this character and then just sort of like talks. And he definitely seems like he's sort of going his own way in this movie, but it's very fun to watch. The shot of the movie, that's him and his mistress, he is in drag, she is in drag. And truly it's like Mia. who? I will say the scene where she convinces him to make the decree that only women may play

women's roles by a persuasive blowjob is filmed in the silliest possible way. Like, that's when I was just like, maybe we're testing the boundaries of tone in this movie. We're like, it's so slapsticky. It's so, like, you almost hear, like, you know when, like, you hear, like, honking bassoons in a soundtrack where, like, things. are like being like, want, want, want, blah, and it's just like silly, silly, silly, goofy, goofy, silly. And like, that seemed to be the tone of that scene.

And it didn't really translate for the rest of the movie. Okay, maybe, maybe I was burdened by what my expectations of what this would be. And maybe my expectation was somewhat unfair. But I was expecting stuffy out of this movie. And every time it gave me silly like that, I appreciated it because it's not what I expected. And would I imagine a lot of audience members that did see this movie, how few of them there were, got out of this movie. The parts that I like the best were when it breaks out of stuffy and gets into kind of shockingly, emotionally trenchant stuff, which again goes back to the crude-up stuff. Like all these sort of scenes where he's talking about, it's not that he can't play the male roles, it's that he's so, he finds them so.

empty of whatever playing women gives him in terms of being able to, he talks about it in a way that the other characters kind of roll their eyes at, where he's like, there's no artistry in playing a man. There's no other level there. The only interesting male role I've ever played is when he played Rosalind, where he was a man playing a woman, playing a man. And he's like, he's trying to explain like the layers to people. And they're all looking at each other like this asshole. But, like, I love those scenes, too, because it felt like the movie becoming one of the more interesting movies about an artist that I've seen in a while. Yes. Because, you know, usually. It's a really interesting movie about the craft of acting, actually. Uh-huh. Yeah. But also, like, the perspective of an artist, too, because, like, you know, we see his other people, like, you said, kind of throwing their eyes at him.

And he, he's not just, like, getting. at his experience of gender in that monologue in that scene. But he's also getting at, you know, where he's coming from as an artist at the same time. And it's so that I thought was interesting. And that's where it gets to the point where I'm like, yes, you're right about Crudip's performance. He is tremendous in this movie. It really is just like unlike anything. And by this point in his career, he had done Jesus' son and almost famous in the same year. And I probably would have nominated him for Oscar for both. I think he's on my list for both of this. I need to watch Jesus' son. It's on Tobe. I don't know if it's aged as well. I haven't seen it since the

beginning. It might seem like a little bit of like a tedious like drug addict movie now from now's perspective. But at the time I was really blown away by him. And his performance as Russell and almost famous has only grown for me. Every time I watch that movie, I'm more and more impressed by him specifically. And so by this time I had already, I was already kind of in the bag for him. And this just gives you a whole other level to what he can do. Like, genuinely, if you have not seen this movie and you're listening to this, watch it for his performance alone. Because if you feel like you know everything there is to appreciate about Billy Crudeup, he really does give you something in this movie that he doesn't give in anything else that he's done

in his career. And it's really fascinating at the very least. But yeah, he just really pulls you in to this could have very easily been a silly movie about a man who plays female roles who can't handle

that a woman is finally asserting yourself as in female roles and he could have very easily been a unsympathetic character

with no interiority and this the story, the screenplay obviously and the play obviously does not take that perspective. But I think also a lot of it is that performance.

The performance really does invest in Ned as an emotional, like somebody who's, you know, feelings and emotions deserve to be taken seriously beyond just the silliness of it. And he also does play the comedy of it. He plays, like his mannerisms as Nistamona are very funny. The scene at the beginning of the movie. When he's still in. full drag, and he has those two

women with him who are like, you know, having their own like, we see it in terms of like women who are fawning over David Bowie, over Prince, etc. Harry Styles. It's basically that, and

he is in this carriage with them, and it is like a funny sex scene where he's pulling their hands consensually. into his dress, and it's like, it's shot in a way where it's like the dress, inside the dress is a cavern, so it's like, they're grabbing Billy Crudup's penis, but it's shot in a way where it's like, they're fingering him. It's very funny. Yeah. There's also the scene,

even before that, when he's that first performance of the Desdemona death scene, where he gets the standing ovation from the audience, much to Tom Wilkinson's, annoyance because like Tom Wilkinson's trying to or there's somebody else who's trying to make the cast member who quits because their exit is ruined by the Desdemona standing ovation.

So at some point Crudeup who's dead on stage sort of like opens his eye and like puts a finger up to the audience from his death position as Desdemona to tell them to like oh we have like one more scene to go and then when they quiet down his like wrist goes like this

and is like continue like that and it's so incredibly like you have my permission go ahead it's great it's it's really great what did we think of claire danes in this movie i think she's great i mean it's it's not anything we haven't seen her do before but i was interested in like preparing for this episode it was originally supposed to be kate winslet which i was i think you change that character to Claire Daines and it completely changes what the dynamic of it is, especially because it's this movie that, you know, and this is not at all a dig against Claire Daines, but it is, she is supposed to be playing an actress who isn't great yet. Yes. And has to play that arc. I don't

know if we buy that as much from Kate Winslet, even in 2004. Except I think in 2004, Kate Winslet is a stronger actress, so maybe she could play that. You know what I mean? Like, maybe she makes us believe that. Sure, but, like, the audience kind of brings their own baggage to movies, and, like, sometimes it works brilliantly, like, and intentionally in movies like Black Swan. I just, I think Claire Danes is a more interesting choice for that, too. I think in this stage of her career, I think she's still figuring her instrument out a little bit. Obviously, I thought she was brilliant in my so-called life. The degree to which that one season of my so-called life imprinted itself on me is not to be

underestimated. Like, that show really fascinated me in a way, and it wasn't just sort of like, oh, I feel spoken to as a teenager. It, like, fascinated me on an artistic level. And then she moves into, obviously, like, She's in Home for the Holidays and How to Make an American Quilet and to Jillian. But then Romeo and Juliet is her first starring role in a film. And she's tremendous, and that movie is tremendous.

But there is a degree to which, short of, like, Nicole Kidman in, like, Moulon Rouge. Like, sometimes if you're in a Baz Luhrmann movie, you are in service to the Bazelerman of it all. And I think in the role of Juliet especially, where she's tremendous. tremendous, but she's not really called upon to do a great range of things in that role. Do you know what I mean? And then from there, it's like smaller roles again, you turn in the Rainmaker and Polish wedding. She stars again in Brokedown Palace, which I definitely saw, but I don't really remember a ton about, except for the trailer, weirdly. Like the trailer kind of imprinted on me a lot, where she slams her palm into the jail cell.

we didn't do it. She sacrifices herself so that Kate Beckinsale can leave and go make those Underworld movies. Okay. And then even like, you know, 2002, she's an Igby goes down. She's in the hours, of course,

playing Merrill's daughter in the hours and is great in that, but it's like it's, you know, three lines or whatever. Terminator Three Rise of the Machines doesn't really call upon her to do too much. So, like, stage beauty is kind of a leveling up in terms of what it's asking her to sort of pull off. And obviously, shop girls the next year.

And I don't know, her career is still evolving by this point. I really don't think it's till she gets things like Temple Grandin and Homeland that we really feel like we've gotten the full range of her. And now, of course, she can be in something like Fleischman is in trouble, which is a small role. I really want to talk about Fleischman with you. Oh, man. I think she's tremendous in that show. She is. She really is. Everybody is. I think all three principles, her and Lizzie Kaplan and Jesse Eisenberg are all really great in that show. Claire Dane's gets the spotlight. Well, Lizzie Kaplan also gets a spotlight episode.

I saw some people complaining that, you know, the idea, I don't know why Fleischman is the show that's making people feel this way. but I've seen several people now complain that they're tired of this trope of a TV show where a character gets their own episode. I don't understand why people are... It's the exact structure of the book. Well, also... It's the exact

structure of the book. That's television. Like, television is episodic. And if you have a show that is telling one long story, I want episodes that are contained like that. I want something.

that feels more episodic. I think that's maybe a disconnect that I have with people who are making that complaint. I think sometimes Twitter encourages people to be very good at recognizing a trope and very bad at evaluating what that trope means. And I'm sure there are, like, critics who also maybe take issue with this

and are wrestling with it more studiously. But I think Twitter especially, trains people to recognize tropes and then like antibodies in the human bloodstream attack that trope, right? And it's like just like just recognizing something as a trope doesn't make it bad. Just because you can see like, oh, this show is doing

what all these other shows are doing doesn't mean that all of that is bad. I also disagree with categorically saying, well, this is the Claire Dane's episode because in the overall structure of it, You abandoned Toby Fleischman for, that's what it is. Like, I feel like it's more successful in the book than it is in the show because maybe the season needed to be an episode or two episodes even shorter to get to that point.

Because my memory of the book, at least, was Toby's story ends earlier. And maybe for the portion of the book that you have, you're spending more. time with Rachel and with the Lizzie Kaplan character. I haven't read the book because, of course, I don't know how to read. I really loved the show. I really thought the show was tremendous. And it came so far at the end of the year that, like, I watched it after I had made my best ofs.

So I kind of wanted to go back and re-edit. But, like, that's on Hulu for releasing a show that late. When you know you're releasing-Hulu-FX on Hulu-FX. I watched it on Hulu It's a Hulu show But like I love that they released Episodically weekly You know one at a time

But if you're going to do that You got to start a month or a little I maybe should have given myself the room Because like some shows Absolutely need the room To like breathe I also kind of feel like the traders Would be taking off even more

If it had room to breathe It's insane that they released that show all at once It's very dumb But, Fleischman, for me personally, and speaking as neither a parent or a woman, the Lizzie Kaplan arc, and I'd read the book. The Lizzie Kaplan arc spoke to me so, there's a moment in... It fucked me up, man. I should not have watched it all at once. Like, it...

The moment, and of course, I'm watching this movie... Getting me at where I'm at. I watched this movie mere weeks after moving out of New York City in a thing that, like, I'm still very emotional about. And watching her, like, she's back in the city. She's standing in front of IFC Center. And, like, it flashes back to the marquee that was playing when she was young and living in the city. Pretty sure the IFC Center was not the IFC Center when Virgin Cic is released. Well, it was because it was the marquee changes and it was the Waverly theater back then.

But it was IFC Center when I first moved to the city, right? And it just devastated me. Because that whole idea of just, like, reconciling with the fact that, like, this is who I was and this isn't who I am anymore. And I'm just like, fuck, God damn it. And it's, and it's like these very specific, like, she's sitting in a park when she sees Claire Danes, she's sitting in a park that I was sitting with in my sister, with my sister, like, the last month that I lived in the city. And, oh, God, killed me. Absolutely killed me. Such a good show.

Go watch it. Everybody go watch it. After a while, you watch Stage Beauty. Great show. If you are in your mid-30s or early 40s, watch it with a seatbelt. But I think, but I got to that point by saying that, like, I think 2004 Claire Daines is still evolving. And there are moments in this movie where she's not quite there for me yet. I mean, I don't know. I think that there is something to her as an actress that she had, in spades that we complain constantly that no actor

today really has and I guess we're talking about actors who are 30 years old not you know actors that are 40 like she is but like she still has it she can do that type of thing and that's the ability to have chemistry with the people

she shares a fucking scene with because like that's what makes this movie watchable that's what makes uh like her character arc interesting, makes us invest in her character arc, is that she is a conceivable person. I just think that Claire Daines is someone who can, like, play a character arc, not, like, isolated to her own, like, part of the, you know, the thing that makes us think that nobody has chemistry anymore is, like, you watch these performances and even good performances, doesn't feel like they're playing off of their scene partner. They're not, you know, developing a relationship between those two characters with the person they're sharing the scene with. And, like, it might sound trite, but that is an actual skill, and she does it.

And you see it in things like this. You see it in things like Fleischman. And, you know, I mean, I think she's known for other things, but, like. You see it in, like, the hours. I mean, not to bring up the hours unnecessarily, but, like, she and Merrill have one scene together. All it is, I looked around the three. room, I thought. I'm giving a party. All I want to do

is give a party. And? I know why he does it. He does it deliberately. Oh, is this Richard? Of course. And that mother-daughter relationship is completely believable. Exactly. It's exactly right. So, yeah, you make a good point

for sure. And I think in something like this, which is like romantic comedy, a jibes. to, I think today we see that that's not so easy to do. So this is probably our good excuse to go into the tabloidiness of the tabloid angle of this movie, which is sort of... You're saying we should discuss why it seems like they have such good chemistry in this movie. We should. We talked about this before.

One of our favorite bits of tabloid remembrance. Yes. the affair that they had on the set of this movie. 2003, this movie is being filmed. At the time, Billy Crudeup is dating, long-term dating, Mary Louise Parker. I think they had been dating for something like 10 years or whatever. Just a very long time. Maybe not quite that long, but like a long time.

She is seven months pregnant with their child, and he leaves her to go be with Claire Daines, who they had gotten together on the set of Stage Beauty. Now, Claire Daines had, like, later on, like, she didn't talk about it for, like, ever. Actually, none of them really did. The closest to it was Crude Up made a statement at one point being, like, essentially just, like, leave us alone. This is a private matter. This, you know, there's an infant involved in this, like, all this sort of stuff, just like, you know, it's none of your business, essentially.

A few years later, Claire Daines had said that. This was, I thought that she'd made a comment after they were. dating because this is while she's been with Hugh Dancy that she made this. Right. But so like as reporters are asking like are you and Claire Danes, are you and Billy Crude Up together? And she's essentially

like, no, we've been friends for a very long time. It's just a very long friendship. And then when the relationship finally went public, she has spoken about, and like after the fact, right, after the fact that like she's now with Hugh Dancy and whatever and like the Billy Crudeup relationship is in the past,

she's talked about how she's like I was just in love with this guy and I think the one statement is just like I had to pursue that which is like an odd statement because like I'm sure you did but like also like I can imagine somebody like Mary Louise Parker doesn't really I thought she made some comment of being like I was very young and didn't have this tool set the mental tool set basically to you know prevent things from happening and then Mary Louise Parker doesn't really mention it ever otherwise than a sort of

sideways reference in this book that she wrote, which was like letters to men. The concept of this book was like letters to various men who I've interacted with. And the letter was to the cab driver who she freaked out on the one day

as she's trying to get to like a gyno appointment and he's taking the wrong route and she freaked out on this cab driver and she basically writes a letter of like, I'm very sorry. And this was sort of what I was going through at the time was I had been left and I was pregnant. And that's sort of like the most she's ever really addressed that. This was while she was starring on the West Wing.

She had already filmed Angels in America because I'm pretty sure she's pregnant when she wins Golden Globe for Angels in America, which is at the end of 2003. If I'm getting it right. She won two Golden Globes. She won one Golden Globe for Angels in America, and then she won another one for weeds a few years later. But I think the one she won for Angels in America is the one where she goes up and she says that... The bet with her friend to thank her son for her boots.

Janelle Maloney from the West Wing, who was also just in the Leisure Seeker, who she says, Janelle Maloney said she'd give me $100 if I thanked my son for how good my boobs look in this dress. And Janelle Maloney just told me She would pay me $1,000 if I thanked my newborn son For my boobs looking so good in this dress Get out of your checkbook

William Atticus Parker Thank you so much from your mother Yeah Because she was I think she must have just had the baby then And that's what it was She had just recently had the baby And I love

I love Mary Louise Parker in general. This was like the era of my like most intense love for Mary Louise Parker where it's like Angels in America, West Wing, two of my favorite characters she's ever done. I'm so into everything she's doing. But also by this point, I was also so over the moon about Billy Crutup as an actor from almost famous and from whatever. And so my joke for all those years was just like, well, I'm staying friends with both of them. And like we're navigating through the unpleasantness. And I've refused to take a side from one to the other, even though objectively, him leaving her for another woman while she's seven months pregnant is some dastardly bastard bullshit.

Like, that is objectively really bad. And it has been the work of my lifetime to remain a Billy Crudup fan through all of this. But I really do think he's such a tremendous actor. I mean, recent years, because of course this is shit that also happened 20 years ago, but in recent years he makes it pretty easy. think he gave the performance of his career in 20th century women. He's so good in that. Which of course no one noticed. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think he's a tremendous actor. And, you know, I don't like to go down the road of figuring out the worst thing every actor who I love has done or said. And because then all of a sudden, like, you're bereft of any art to enjoy. You know what I mean? At some point, you have to accept the personal foibles of people. Well, so long as they are, except, you know what I mean?

So long as, you know, it's not so beyond the pale. Here's what I'll propose about Billy Crudup. Yeah. He is the first man of this podcast because not only do we love Mary Louise Parker, not only do we love Claire Danes. We also love honor and respect Naomi Watts, who is his romantic partner. That's true. I love when he just shows up on.

on her Instagram. He is just the first gentleman of this podcast. Yeah. If Naomi Watts and Claire Danes are sort of our first ladies, yeah, you're right. He is the first gentleman. Is he fun? I don't follow any celebrities on Instagram. Like at some point, if you have-

Naomi Watts is fun on Instagram. It's like Debbie Allen and like, that's kind of it is who I follow on Instagram. Other than like mid-tier, like, reality people sometimes where it's like, sometimes it's fun. But even that, I'm like, it's a very limited- I had to break myself of following people from the circle because I'm like this is not oh see yeah I don't get I can't get into that trap it's too much and certainly like actors I don't want to be disillusioned I think that there are chances that somebody will

be delightful on social media but the chance that I will like lose my spark for loving somebody because they're weird on social media is weird in a bad way weird in a good way is fine or too much you know uh Laura Dern saying she's at the festival the film festival like that's good stuff like we like that um yeah so much love and honor to mary louise parker i'm glad you made it through a rough air of your of your life i can't imagine she's ever seen stage beauty and she probably shouldn't um but we're all doing well now listen mary louise has a few tony awards billy's got his several tony's she's got her emmy she's a bunch of emmys yeah everybody's Wait, has she ever done a book on tape?

Is she one letter shy of an Egot? Mary Louise has never won an Oscar. Right, but is that the one that she's shy of? Does she have a Grammy? Oh, I would be surprised, but hold on a second. I'll look this up. I would listen to an audiobook read by Mary Louise Parker, but come to think of it, she doesn't really have an audiobook.

Well, she did have that memoir, though, of the letters, so maybe she was... Hold on. Awards. Her, I, look up Maria Louise Parker right now and look at her IMDB photo, which I'm pretty sure was that Golden Globes were. She said her boobs looked great. Yeah, I think I know exactly the photo that you're talking about. She's so beautiful. Like, honest to God, I love her so much.

All right, Grammy. No Grammy Awards. She's a Gemini Award winner for her performance in the 2007 TV movie The Robber Bride, which I think was based on a Handmaid's Tale. Who's the Handmaid's Tale? Margaret Atwood. Gary's, we got to do some rehab on Mary Louise Parker on IMDB.

Her known for... Wait. Everybody, please go to the Fried Green Tomatoes page and click on Mary Louise Parker. We got to hack this SEO. Yeah, it's a bad known for it. It's weeds, both red movies, and RIPD. It's wrong.

No one saw RIPD. It's deeply wrong. Yeah, I don't like it. Why is Angels in America not on there? Why is Fried Green Tomatoes not on there? It's wrong. It's a bummer, and it's bad. The client should be on there, if anything, more so than the Red Movies.

I know, like, I know her greatest work is often on stage, but, like, boys on the side. Saved. What the hell else? But yeah, fried green tomatoes at the very least It needs to be on there. God. Portrait of a lady, even. Why not?

Sure. She's on the poster for Grand Canyon, for Christ's sake. Just like throw around there. Have you seen Grand Canyon? I don't remember. There's like that era of cast in movies that I'm like, I don't, nobody talks about these things. Are they good?

I either saw Grand Canyon or saw the trailer enough times that I think I saw Grand Canyon. And I can't decide which is which. But anyway. So let's talk a little bit like the Globes and such, because I think part of the reason why stage beauty, aside from being vaguely Shakespeare and love-like in, you know, the five years after that movie, a lot of this, the, like, reason why we can talk about this on the podcast is because it crewed up, at least, was heavily predicted for Globes' comedy and was not. ultimately. So read us off the nominations for Golden Globe. Well, Jamie Fox wins for Ray. They ran that movie as a musical, which don't know why more movies like Ray don't do this, because Ray has like nine million musical sequences. Of course, it's a musical. Yeah.

Jim Carrey for Eternal Sunshine and Spotless Mind. Perfect. Kevin Klein for Deloveli. Kevin Spacey for Beyond the Sea. Well, that's the one. And the non-Oscar nominated Paul Chi Amati for Sideways. That's a really strong category for the Golden Globes, music, learn comedy, honestly. With the exception of Kevin Spacey, who is actively horrifying and embarrassing, beyond the Kevin Spaceyness of it,

I think sometimes we now look back in like every Kevin Spacey performance is cringe and on some level that is true. Listeners, just go and Google a picture of Bobby Darren and come up with a list of actors you think would be appropriate to play Bobby Darren. He also plays the role from, like, age 20 to age 60 or whatever. It's just like he, like, how old was Bobby Darren when he...

Oh, no, he died early. Okay, but he plays the role from like age 20 to when he died, which was age 37, which was very early. But he's playing... It's an entirely too young role in general for Kevin Spacey at that point in his life. It's also a bad performance. It's a bad movie. It's like kind of a howler.

Almost, I watched it before the allegations came out. So, like, I was able to watch it and just have fun with the howlerness of it. But it's really bad. So, yeah, Billy Crude Up is my number one best actor performance of that entire year, full stop. So, like, he absolutely would have been on my list. I have, it's Crude Up, Jim Carrey, Giammati, Jeff Bridges for the Door and the Floor and Gail Garcia Bernal for bad education I think it's a very strong

2004 is a sneaky really good year for movies that we don't always recognize which like Eternal Sunshine is that year Huckabies is that year sideways Dogville is released

in the United States that year Kill Bill 2, Door in the Floor Bad Education Aviator Hero is released in the United States in 2004 Mean Girls is that year Dear Drake. Sean of the Dead, Tarnation, Maria Full of Grace. A lot of movies that were never going to be best picture contenders at the Oscars.

But that's why I think it's a sneaky good year where you really have to just peel back a layer or two. And it's just these really, really interesting movies that were doing really interesting things in the middle of that decade. Well, and Sideways kind of eats everyone's lunch that year because it's this small scrappy movie that like kind of took. all of the off the beaten path energy out of the room and it maybe took all of that energy to get it as far as it did

I mean like that's a movie that I think how much money did Sideways make I feel like it made like $80 million or something that's a little wild and it kind of sucks about it and like this is no dig against Sideways but like it doesn't have as much of an imprint in the culture and like it got all of that

you know it sucked all of that air out of the room and still didn't get nominated for the best thing about it, which is Paul Giamatti's performance. Right. Yes. I agree. And at the time even... I mean, maybe tied with Virginia Madsen's performance.

At the time, that snub was pretty significant and well known. And somewhat notorious that Giamani wasn't nominated. But I want to, like... So much so that it carries him through the entire Cinderella Man season. Yeah. I think he's great in that movie. But, like, when's Paul Giamani? bad.

Right. I need those Capital One commercials. I was going to say you hate those Capital One commercials. But like, I'm looking at the 2004 list of movies that I have, that I had seen that year. But like, Birth is that year. House of Flying Daggers is that year. Like the Life Aquatic is that year. Did you say Kill Bill 2?

What's that? Did you say Kill Bill 2? I said Kill Bill 2 before sunset. that collateral, which is not even a movie that I love, but is worth talking about in regards to that. Same with the Village. Eternal Sunshine, of course, like, the looms sort of high above all of them, saved is that year. Speaking of Mary Louise Parker, the Dawn of the Dead remake, that is still my favorite Zach Snyder movie is that year. Probably the only good Zach Snyder movie. Did I say Tarnation? Tarnation, one of my favorite

weird documentary movies. The Incredibles is that year. It's just a really, really, really fantastic year for movies that, like, when people talk about like the great years, 99 and 07 and whatnot, I always sort of say that 04 is slept on as a great movie. Or Spider-Man 2, like a little movie called Spider-Man 2. Another little movie called The Incredibles. Right, yeah, exactly.

That's exactly it. All this to say to, Million Dollar Baby's a good movie. You like it better than I do, but I don't think it's terrible. There are elements about it, like J. Barichelle, that are just like, oh, we're doing this. That's maybe one of my favorite parts of that movie is J. Baruchel. I love him. Everybody looks at you in their life. Like, the Margo Martindale stuff in that movie, I think, is very, very cringy. Like, I find it very hard to watch.

When I rewatched it, thinking going into it, that that that. portion was cringy. I found it less cringy than I remembered. All right, but anyway, yeah, we've talked about the Golden Globes. I think, like, I think Crude Up should have been

Oscar nominated. I fully understand why he wasn't. This movie was not on anybody's radar, but who was... This is also a year where the Globes' comedy races were being taken. A spot was being taken up by Phantom of the Opera, though Jared Butler was not nominated

for, you know, his actor. But Emmy Rossum was, right? But Emmy Rossum was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Globes who do really like Claire Danes didn't nominate her and... In the wake of Joel Schumacher's death and my sort of

boomeranging appreciation for the Phantom of the Opera, I'm tempted to go back every once in a while and watch that movie in full and if I was wrong about it. I watch scenes of it, and I still feel like, even just like the musical numbers, more often than not, are filmed in a way that I think is dumb and, like, and takes away things

that could be really good about it. I also think, like, Gerard Butler really is an albatross around that movie. But, like, there are things about that movie that do work, and I wonder if maybe... Patrick Wilson. Sure. I'm more thinking of like mini driver. I also think Emmy Rossum is pretty good for what you, like, she embodies that sort of like the ingenuness of Christine in a way that you want. And I think with a more dynamic phantom, that movie works a lot better. I also am just like more of a sucker for those songs. But like the masquerade number is staged, I think, really well. not to be like, let's have more age gap discourse, but the phantom should have been Antonio Banderas or it should have been Hugh Jackman or, you know.

Yeah. Well, Antonio Banderas has like performed those songs on stage and stuff like that and like a concert form and whatnot. It is almost surprising. I wonder what was going on. Maybe he was making an X-Men movie at that point, but like. Hugh Jackman? Why wasn't it Hugh Jackman?

I don't know if I love Hugh Jackman as the Phantom either, but like he's a better choice He'd be better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. This whole, like, chemistry type of thing that maybe Emmy Rossum would be better if she had, like, a better, hunkier phantom. I mean, Hugh Jackman, why not? It's not even hunkier.

It's, like, you, like, I think he does have to be older and more menacing, more credibly menacing. I think every time that, like, Gerard Butler tries to, like, sneer in that movie, it's just kind of laughable. Yeah, like, Gerard Butler's phantom. Like, the most menacing thing he's doing is, like, opening a door.

to wear some shit's going down. Right. Like, he's not ever going... He's not a threat to anybody. Yeah. Justice for the Phantom of the operates. It deserves better. All right.

What else about Stage Beauty did it get nominated for? It was a... It's a National Board of Review. I don't know what was going... This is one of the years that they do not only attend, but special recognition for excellence in filmmaking.

So this is before the independent top ten. but these are mostly independent movies that are in this lumping of 12 movies. So what is it? Read it off. All right. A home at the end of the world. Underrated this had Oscar buzz episode. Before sunset, great movie.

And during love, Joe Reed loves that. I do. Eternal Sunshine in the Spotless Mind. A movie called Facing Windows. I don't know. Garden State. Sigourney Weaver in imaginary heroes since O-Tar left.

Stage Beauty. The assassination of Richard Nixon, the door and the floor, the woodsman, and David Gordon Green's undertow. Undertoe, good movie. David Gordon's Green, undertow, the sequel to

David Gordon Green's cameltoe. Stop it. Stop that right now. Undertoe is a good movie. Remember when David Gordon Green made good movies? What's he remaking now that is going to buy?

The Exorcist, of course. We can talk about it, but, like, fundamentally, theoretically, I don't want to talk about it. He already fucked up the Halloween movies. He's going to fuck up one of the other greatest horror movies of all time. Oh, boy. The good that is coming out of it is Ellen Burstyn agreed to do the movie. But basically, Warner Brothers, I think it's Warner Brothers,

has to fund an acting scholarship in perpetuity. Go, Ellen. Very good. This is, it might be her last hurrah, good for her for, you know, making them, make some good come out of the whatever havoc he's going to reek over the exorcist. I love, speaking of the NBR, I'm sort of perusing this. They have their little Freedom of Expression Award, which is essentially like a movie that we couldn't put on any other lists, but like is about something important. The pairing of Fahrenheit 9-11 and the Passion of the Christ together for this. That's brilliantly NBR, because.

also that was such a major storyline of 2004, which was, on one hand, you have the people who like Fahrenheit 9-11. They hate George Bush. They're, you know, they listen to Air America, and they love Michael Moore. And on the other side, you have the people who love the passion of the Christ, devoutly religious, they love Mel Gibson and all of his prejudices, and they secretly blame the Jews for more things than they should blame the Jews for. And, which makes it sound like you should be blaming the Jews for anything, and you should, like, don't blame the Jews. Like, that's, if your sentence starts with, I blame the Jews for, just, like, stop that sentence. Like, don't, don't say that.

Stop that sentence. Do not speak for at least two years and start listening. Yeah. Just, like, just do a lot more listening. Anyway, but that was the divide in cultural America that year. And both of those movies made a shocking amount of money for what they were, which is essentially a slapped together daily show segment

and a horrifying and a snuff film. Yeah, exactly. And they both made bucket loads of money and that's where we were in 2004. It was quite a time. I should seal my husband's Passion of the Christ story. My

husband who was working at a movie theater at the time of Passion of the Christ coming out. And this is before digital projection, though, I mean, Digital projection existed, but not where, like, every screen is digitally projected. So because only so many number of prints were made for the movie, they would have simultaneous screens running the same print,

and the print would run from, like, one side of the building to the other. In the middle of this movie, like, as, you know, they have a theater full of church people, angry, not very nice church people, you know, packing houses for the past, of the Christ. Somebody goes up and accidentally walks through where the print is and it like crashes three or two or three theaters full of angry church people and they all en masse you know, a gazelle in the Lion King style mass out of the theater and into the lobby and start like yelling at teenage child who's just trying to sell people popcorn. Oh, no. Oh, God.

Maybe this is a case example, while digital projection is good, actually. Monsignor O'Connell was very, very angry that day. Right, right. I don't think it would be like Monsignor. It would be like Debbie Liu. Oh, I see. So it wasn't even like, I'm blaming my fellow Catholics. Jimmy Ray.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah, no, these were like Baptists. Church lady, Baptists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. What else is worth talking about in this NBR list?

Breakthrough Performance Actor, Tofer Grace for In Good Company and PS. Tofer Grace was good in those movies. I don't remember a goddamn thing about In Good Company, and I definitely saw that movie. We should do PS, maybe, even though our listeners would... We could do In Good Company. Absolutely no conception of what we're talking about. We would not probably struggle to find that movie. Probably, yeah.

The thing is, that's a Dylan Kidd movie. I think that's that director's name. And he directed Roger Dodger. Yes. And, like, if we're going to do a Dylan Kidd movie, we should be doing it. We should do Roger, Dodger. That would be a fun one to do, actually. There's some interesting stories in that one, for sure.

What else? What? I'm just looking at this NBR list. And that Benning and Being Julia, that was a moment in time for all of us. That was a real... We were trying. Listen, a lot of gay people, will yell at me that I need to rewatch

that movie and that it's good actually trademark time. I don't think it's bad, but like it's weird that like we made a big enough deal about that to get her an Oscar nomination for that. It's just weird. You know, right around the, well, not right around the corner, 15 years later,

20th century women would be right there and was paid dust. Yeah, exactly. I paid dust. It got a screenplay nomination. No, but that performance was paid dust in a way that it was too much too much for me to handle

you wrote down in the audience Shakespeare in Love similarities and that's something that I had also written down in my notes and I want to talk about that because obviously Shakespeare in Love covers some of the same ground with the Guineath-Paltrow character sort of going undercover as a man because she cannot

play the parts as a woman and this stage beauty sort of zeros in on that in a really kind of gnarly way and I get why Shakespeare and love is the more

successful movie both sort of like financially and awards wise but also like hangs together probably a little bit better than a movie but also like as a movie but it's grander you know what I mean like it's sort of like it's ambition

yeah it has a sweep to it that this movie is almost not interested in yeah yeah yeah yeah I agree with that. This is a Lionsgate movie. Lionsgate. Interesting year for Lionsgate, largely because, you know, they have this massive financial success in the aforementioned Fahrenheit 9-11. Yes.

Was this the year that, like, they kind of broke. I'm trying to remember, like, when I started becoming aware of Lionsgate. Maybe it was... Well, Lionsgate, this is like the beginning of the transition for Lionsgate, because Lionsgate, because Lions Gatesgate used to release more off-the-beaten path type of things ahead of, like, this, when they're making Fahrenheit 9-11 money and releasing more controversial movies. They, their breakthrough, I was just on almost major podcasts, go back and listen, discussing this movie. Yeah. Their breakthrough is really gods and monsters.

I see. Okay. With Oscar. There might be something before that, but like gods and monsters, you know, you can imagine if that was a year of a Best Picture 10. it would be a best picture nominee. Oh, it was almost a best picture nominee with just five. Like, it really was on the cusp that year. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the first time I never really noticed Lionsgate as a sort of burgeoning little film dork was American Psycho. I think that was the first time I remember. Well, because they, is American Psycho one of the movies? Because Lionsgate also was, they tended to pick up things that were dumped by Miramax because Disney said they couldn't release it. Like, I think Dogma was one of those. Yeah, well, yeah, Dogma was definitely originally intended to be a Miramax movie, for sure, because all his other ones were. Dogma movie I watched, again, very recently.

What a odd little creature that movie is, and I don't mean that entirely in a pejorative. Like, as with most of Kevin Smith's sort of, he made those, like, first four movies that are regarded as, like, his best. movies before things really started getting sad a little just like a little, a little sad. I think there's there's, I've talked about this before in relation to chasing Amy, but I think there is interest to be found

in those first four movies, and like he's going, he's making some swings in dogma and he's not connecting entirely, but like there's some interesting stuff going on in that movie, and it is to me really watchable, so even still. So good for good for dogma it's really weird

that Linda Fiorentino is the star of that movie though it's just really really strange that like she's only the star of like a very small handful of movies and one of them is dogma it's really weird

yeah um what else their big Oscar success this year though is Hotel Rwanda which also is a movie that you can very easily see in a best picture 10 it being a best picture nominee

oh 100% wait let's go let's do that then. What were the 2004 as a 10 best picture year? I like when we do this little exercise. Okay. The nominees were A Million Dollar Baby,

The Aviator, Finding Neverland, Ray, and Sideways. The lone director that year was Mike Lee for Vera Drake. That's one of your best picture.

I think that is. I think that's one. I think Hotel Rwanda absolutely is another. Mm-hmm. The Incredibles. I think the Incredibles, yes. Yep.

So that's three. So we're looking for two more. I would like it to be Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, and that did win. I think that's one. Original screenplay. So, like, that's in contention for those last two. Closer, I think, doesn't make it.

People were really caustic about that movie. so I'm going to agree with you. I think So I'm just going to read off movies that got other nominations. Kinsey. I think it could be the Motorcycle Diaries. Maybe the motorcycle diaries.

Maybe. It did get a screenplay nomination. One song. Right. It was kept in conversation. That movie did really well with, I believe, Indie Spirits and Basta. Do you feel like, because of the discourse that year, that they would have just nominated Fahrenheit 9-11 and The Passion of the Christ both?

No. You don't think so. I don't. You don't think those got close. Okay. No. Because there was buzz for both of those movies as Best Picture Contenders at the time. I do remember.

There was, Passion of the Christ did well, but I don't know if there was people stomping for Best Picture. Though, again, my whole sticking point about this is if you have a Best Picture 10, it changes the entire narrative of the race. So maybe. Right. That's sort of what I mean by in terms of like if that becomes a narrative that picks up steam. You also have stuff like a very long engagement, which gets like multiple crafts nominations. You get the C inside, which won foreign language film. Um, so you're saying, or I think we're both saying,

Vera Drake, Hotel Rwanda, the Incredibles, and Eternal Sunshine. And then your, that's four. Yeah, so your number 10 movie is what? Motorcycle Diaries. Is motorcycle diaries. All right. I think mine is, God, there's also House of Flying Daggers, who gets some nominations.

What are our screenplay? I mean, Trek 2 did well. Honestly. Spider-Man 2 is not a bad call either. Yes. Except that in 2004, I think the hurdle that superhero movies would have had to jump, they couldn't jump it yet. Maybe you're right about motorcycle diaries.

get the screenplay nomination. I think if I were to just like, well at other places, too, if I'm remembering correctly. In the interest of throwing in something as an alternate so that we both don't have the exact same list, I'm just going to say that they do Fahrenheit 9-11. I don't know. Because it's not eligible. Was it wasn't eligible for documentary feature? The rules at the time, he chose to make a best picture eligible instead of documentary. But then I don't, I think what ultimately happened is it was ruled ineligible because it aired on, like, PBS or something right before the election. I think it was ineligible for documentary feature, but not for Best Picture, maybe? Is that a thing that would have been possible?

I don't even know. I don't even know. So maybe it is just motorcycle diaries and, and, and we leave it at that. What an interesting. Maybe it's phantom. Maybe it is phantom, honestly. Like, maybe it is. Should we move on to the IMDB game?

Let's do it. All right, what? Explain it to. Explain it. Explain the game. All right, Mrs. Graham. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try and guess the top

four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles, release years as a clue, and if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That's the I&B game. My dude, are you giving or guessing first? I'll guess first. All right, so we talked about the great Fleischman is in Terrible, starring none other than Ms. Claire Danes, who you could argue is the titular Fleischman. Yeah. But the other titular Fleishman, who is in trouble.

We seriously, we got to get a handle on all these Fleischmen's being in trouble. We got to get over on all these Fleischmen are in trouble. I don't know if you know this, but Fleischman is in trouble. Tonight, at 11, Fleischman is in trouble.

Who am I guessing for IMDBG? You're guessing Jesse Eisenberg. Have we never done Jesse Eisenberg? Okay. I think we have. but early. Early. Social Network. Social Network.

His Oscar nomination. His Oscar nomination. Now you see me? Incorrect. No, now you see me. Well, darn. Zombie land. Zombie land.

I thought you'd get hung up on that one. No, that was a very popular movie. But many people forget that the zombie lands happened. It's true. That's true. Jesse Eisenberg follows up social network with what films.

Oh, is one of them like the double? Incorrect, not the double. So you're getting your years. Your years are 2005 and 2016. 2005 and 2016. 2016 is, um... Huh. You didn't forget Zombie Land, but...

Oh, is it Zombie Land Double Tap? No, but I do think that people forgot that this happened, specifically that he happened at this. That he happened. Oh, it's, um, Batman versus Superman, Dawn of Justice? I was going to ask that, I was going to say you needed to give the, full title. But yes, he played Lex Luzer in that barely functioning movie.

Yeah. All right. So, 2005, so this is well before the social network. Is this the year of, no, Roger Dodger is 02. So this is after. Oh, sweet baby Jesse Eisenberg in 2002's Roger Dodger. The village, which he's barely in, is 04. 05, Jesse Eisenberg.

Is it like one of those like indie movies about like shitty prep school kids or something like that? It's not not that. Oh, God. Okay. Like I keep thinking Igby goes down, but obviously that's not him. This is better Igby goes down. Oh. And I like Igby goes down.

I haven't seen it in 20 years, but I would say that I like it. Oh, no. You're right. It's the squid in the whale. It's the squid in the whale. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Very, very good.

That's not a bad IMDB game for Jesse Eisenberg. No. But now you see me as surprising that it's not there. I don't know. Zombie Land is the makes more sense blockbuster there. Anyway. All right. Chris, for you, I picked one of the stars of Stage Beauty,

banking on the fact that you maybe wouldn't have investigated this person. Is it my boyfriend? No, it's the person whose balls you text. me about. It is Ben Chaplin. Oh, we didn't talk about Ben Chaplin's balls. There's a whole, like, steam, ancient steam room scene where he's just, like, sitting one leg up, and I was like,

the second he moves, you're going to be able to see his balls. Wait, can we talk about... The sex scene on stage that they have, on, like, the little, the mattress that they throw down on the stage after hours, where he says, and I quote, he tells him to put the wig on, I like to see a golden flow as I die in you.

Like, that is some dialogue right there. My favorite Cardi B lyrics. Oh, this, okay, wait, we're going to back up, because I didn't go through my notes before we did IMDB game. And I did want to ask you, on what challenge would Ned Kinniston go home on drag race? What would be Ned's downfall? Well, the thing is, well, I suppose you'd be playing female characters.

Obviously, the weakness is playing a male character. However, I don't know. I feel like this type of broad queen is not great at lip syncing. So I think you go home during the lips, either the rusical or the lip-sync Lollaparruza. Ned Kinnison would make such a fucking fuss over getting the role that, that he wanted in the Rousicle and would get it because everybody would be like, fine, fine. You know what? Right, right.

And then there's so much pressure on that person. If he doesn't get the role, that means that he wins. But if he does get the role, that means he's going home. Exactly. Because I think Ned would do well at the Snatch game. I think Ned would do well at the makeover because the movie obviously shows that, like, he can impart his skill set onto somebody else. Ned wouldn't make it to the makeover. The makeover is always towards the end of the season.

I know. Right. That's why I was just thinking. Where does he fall down? And ultimately, I do think it's the Rusicle. I think it is. All right, anyway, Ben Chaplin's balls. There is a steam room scene where he's just like sitting on a ledge in a towel with one leg propped up.

And I'm looking at this and I'm like, if they show his leg moving, it's going to show his balls. And even in a grainy DVD, I was like, I'm pretty sure that's his balls. And I text my friend Joe Reed and I continued watching the movie. me. Yes. Balls Update 23. Yes. All right. So you are going to guess. Ned Kornacki, or Kornacki is just like doing a whole visual

on when Ben Chaplin's leg is going to slightly lower and the towel is going to reveal his scrotum. Yeah. One more, one more batch of returns from Thigh County and we're going to get, yeah. All right, give me Ben Chaplin's known for.

We're receiving updates from Paraniga Paranium, Missouri. Just give me Ben Chaplin's known for. This is impossible. Paranium County actually does sound like a plausible county somewhere in, like... In Missouri, yeah. Is Lost Souls on there? No, but God love that you've been so F-cinema score-pilled,

you would guess Lost Souls first. But, like, when else was he a lead? This is going to be... impossible. I am not going to be nice to you next week. Going to pull something. Good luck. Ben Chaplin, I have Ben Chaplin facial blindness, which is, I'm sure, entirely relatable, especially for, like, executives in Hollywood. Yes.

Well, what's the movie that he co-stars with somebody who the facial blindness becomes a thing? Oh, Sienna. No. Ben Chaplin facial blindness coincided with a co-star of his who, like, everybody was like, they look exactly the same. Andrea Reisbrough.

Oh, he looks like that actor. Yeah. I don't know. Toby McGuire. I shouldn't be giving you hints this early, but, like, you are going to need them. No, this is a movie with, like, 8 billion actors in it. Somebody was, like, memorably cut out of it. Oh, thin red line.

Thin red line. Thin red line, everybody walked out of it and couldn't tell Ben Chaplin and Jim Caviesel apart. Right. Okay. I mean, that's the era of movie. I just need to guess movies from, like, that era. What was his breakthrough? Great question.

Most people saw, most people saw him it. Is it like inventing the Abbots? No, that's, that's Billy Crudeup. But doesn't that have a bunch of like white twinks from that era? Yeah, but it's like, yeah, but it's not him. Mainstream comedy where he's like the romantic lead, but like the female leads are the poster. The stars. He's like the middle of a lug of triangle and the female leads are the ones who are on the

the poster. He is technically also on the poster, but like much smaller. Oh, truth about cats and dogs. Truth about cats and dogs. He is on this poster getting dragged by the dog on roller skates. He has a phone sex scene with Janine Garoflo. He sure does. They're both just yanking it on the phone. All right. The other two, one of them, all right, with the other two, he's starring opposite fabulous Oscar-winning actresses in each of these other two movies. Okay. One, at least one of them has to be a costume drama. No, actually no. Wow.

In one of them, he's playing, like, The Cop. You know how movies will have, like, The Cop? The Star of this movie is also a cop, but, like, she's more interesting than that. It's not, like, Gothica. Is it taking lives? You're right around the same. Is it Angelina Jolie? It's not Angelina Jolie, but you're absolutely in the right genre.

It's not Gothica. It's... This movie is most known for... Murdered by numbers? What's it? No? Murder by numbers? No?

It is murder by numbers. Yes. Wow. Three whole twinks in that movie. Wait, who's the third? Wait, you're counting Ben Chapplin as a twink? And Ryan Gosling. Ben Chapplin's not a twink by that movie.

He's a... That's fair, but... He's a cop. No cops at the twink parade. All right. Your final... I have three. Your final one is kind of a tremendously popular Oscar-winning actress.

This movie of hers is one that I haven't seen, but like it comes up kind of a lot because it's in the middle of an incredibly sort of lush era for her. And this is sort of like the dissonant note. Oh, is it like full frontal? No, but you're right around the right time. Is it the right actress? Is it Julia Roberts? No. Tremendously popular actress around the 2002 era.

Yes. Popular. Had the actress already won her Oscar? Not quite yet. Is it Holly Berry? It is not Holly Berry. Okay. Is it Nicole Kidman? It is Nicole Kidman.

Oh, it's Birthday Girl. It's Birthday Girl. A movie I've still never seen. I can't remember if I've seen Birthday Girl. Written by The Brothers Butterworth, directed by Jess Butterworth. He's on the poster, so he's got to be like the... He's above the title. It's Nicole Kidman and Ben Chaplin above the title in Birthday Girl.

Yeah, he's like a lead in all of these movies. The one that he's probably lowest build for is... I think the thing is like he's the guy, and then like she's like the Russian... and mail order bride who fucks his life up or whatever, right? Like, that's the thing. Okay. Weird IMDB game. Weird one. Weird IMDB. I'm more than happy to move on from it. That was very cruel.

Thank you for your help. I believe that is our episode. If you want more, this had Oscar Buzz. You can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. You can also follow us on Twitter. It had underscore buzz. And on Instagram at this at Oscar Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? You can find me dying exquisitely on Twitter and letterboxed at Joe Reed, read-spelled, R-E-I-D. And you can find me on Twitter and letterbox at Chris V-File.

That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievious for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate like and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, wherever else you get your podcast. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So please tell us how great we made your boobs look with a nice review. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week with more buzz. Oh, yeah.