This Had Oscar Buzz - 245 – Dolores Claiborne (with Louis Peitzman!)

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

In the small hall of Oscar-endorsed horror films, the centerpiece must be Kathy Bates brilliant and terrifying win for Best Actress in Misery. A few years after that win, Bates returned to Stephen King territory (though you can debate how much of a horror story it is) with Dolores Claiborne, the mystery of whether or not a … Continue reading "245 – Dolores Claiborne (with Louis Peitzman!)"

Uh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that! We want to talk to Marilyn Hacks. I'm from Canada. I'm from Canada water. You don't have at this, aren't you, Ms. Claibor? People do have a tendency to take some bad falls when you're around.

Come up! Mommy! What did you do to him, Mommy? Why can't you believe my mother? Because she's done it before. You don't believe me, do you? Selina. Get in the house right now.

I am in the house. Academy Award winner Cassie Bates. Jennifer Jason Lee. An accident, Dolores. can be an unhappy woman's best friend. Oh! Oh! Delores! Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast, constantly embarking upon a very rigid search. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as Always with my high-riding bitch. Chris File. Hello, Chris. You dirty bird. You dirty bird. Wrong Kathy. Wrong Kathy performance.

Wrong Kathy Stephen King performance. Yes. Well, exactly. We'll be talking about that one plenty. Welcome to our horror in July portion of the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast. Is it horror or is it a women's picture, though? I ask you this question. It's both, and it's also, like, it sort of goes from, like, melodrama to kind of a TV movie.

There's a whole lot of genres at play. I don't want to get too far into discussing this qualitatively without bringing in our guest, though, because there's plenty to talk about, and I don't want any of it to go to waste. We have a special guest with us for the first time on this head Oscar buzz, which is always a very exciting process. aspect. He is a culture writer. He hosted a Stephen King podcast called King of the Dark. Also, if you listen to the screendress podcast, you'll have seen him or you have heard him a few times recently and probably soon into the future. Welcome Lewis Pitesman to this head Oscar buzz. Hooray, hooray, hooray. Thank you. Those hoorays were so deep and sincere that I really you feel heartily well-downed.

I just finished doing a long freelance piece on Wes Anderson movies, so like everything I say is deadpan, but it's none the less sincere. That will definitely fuck you up. No, so, Lewis, I reached out to you. I was very adamant that we have you on the podcast to talk about Dolores Claiborne, for one, because of the Stephen King connection. For two, because we just wanted to have you on. But also, and I, Chris can vouch for this, because I said this several times, I'm like, we need to have Lewis on to talk about Dolores Claiborne for the 4th of July episode.

And I was steadfast in that. And I'm watching the movie yesterday. And I'm like, well, where's all the stuff about the 4th of July? Because I was certain that I knew that it happens on the, the pivotal events happened on the eclipse. But I thought the eclipse was happening on the 4th of July. I thought that was like baked in. And what I realized then was that I was conflating Dolores Claiborne, with the Martina McBride song Independence Day,

which is also, which is a song about a woman who's being abused by her husband, who fights back, and I believe sets the house on fire. Yes, she does, and I guarantee you there's definitely like some version of this on YouTube that's, like, footage from Dolores Claiborne, but that song. If there is it, if it's not there, it should be.

Somebody do that now. Very pivotal in my family because, constant misunderstanding of lyrics happened and there's always a joke in my family that that song is instead of Daddy left the proof on her cheek scary, sad somebody, I think it was my sister

thought the lyrics where Daddy left himself in the sink because he's a drunk long story. Again, Joe St. George and Martina McBride's wayward Daddy have similarities. I don't know Martina very well may have been speaking in character. I don't know.

All I know about that song, because I'm not a very big country music fan, but, like, Carrie Underwood performed that song 1,200 times on her season of American Idol. Like, that was her, like, go-to, like, genuinely multiple times. And good for her.

I was going to say save it for this had CMA buzz, but that probably did win some CMA award. I sure it did. Yeah, it would be uneligible for us. It was Carrie Underwood's version of Kimberly Locke doing somewhere over the rainbow. 100%. Yes.

Wait, so anyway, so, Lewis, I basically requested this movie for you. So talk to me about this movie, your general sort of feelings when I was like, hey, Lewis, come talk to us about DeLewars Clayburn. What was your reaction beyond what you told me? Well, I didn't know it was a seasonal pick because I wasn't aware of the Fourth of July connection that existed in your head. But I, I, I'm always excited to talk about Dolores Claiborne, which I've spoken about on at least one other podcasts, but maybe two. I've been on a lot of Stephen King podcasts, including the one that I did for Barnes & Noble, that they scrubbed from the internet because Barnes and Noble.

And, yeah, I don't know, Dolores Claiborne is a movie that I didn't see until college and then became very important. to me because we had a stuffed bear that we named Dolores Claybear and that that for some reason was like a very important

part of my college experience and Dolores Claybear formerly Dolores St. Roj that's very good we named the bear and then I hadn't seen the movie so then we watched it

and the roommate who had named the bear like forgot that not to spoil things that we'll talk about. The movie has, like, very upsetting child sexual abuse in it. And so you were kind of all watching it. Like, it has a lot of, like, as you said, like TV movie vibes at parts, and it's very watchable.

And then it's, like, suddenly extremely upsetting. And it kind of, like, tainted the whole Dolores Clay Bear thing. But anyway, I still stand by the movie and the stuffed animal. Stand by that stuff animal. When I did The King Podcast, it was like. like kind of insane. We recorded two episodes. We did two episodes a week and we read the full books for them, which when you're

doing a Stephen King podcast is like a wild undertaking. Yeah. The books are not short, usually. We would do like the stand and then something else for one week. It was like very, yeah. And there's, I can, I'll complain like separately off, off Mike. But, um, but Dolores Claiborne. Yeah.

So I read it and then watched it again, um, which was great. I think when you read the book, there's a lot to kind of think about the adaptation of it all. Because it's all, like, stream of consciousness. It's all, it's all a monologue, yeah. And so, like, instead of, instead of her, like, I guess, giving really long speeches to Jennifer Jason Lee and, like, flashing back, she's just, like, doing that in her kind of confession, talking about it's all one long monologue in dialect. That's Jody Comer's next, Tony. I was going to say, adapt this for the stage, please. And I also, I also did a ranking of every Stephen King adaptation for BuzzFeed when I was working there.

Another, like, ridiculous project that no one should ever do because they are, there's some, like, amazing movies. And there are some that are so shockingly bad. I did everything that was, like, a completed, like, movie or mini-series or TV movie, like, anything that wasn't, like, an open-ended series. I did. Which at some point, it becomes. it, like, really starts proliferating because, like, for a while there, I feel like it was at least, you could at least get your mind around, these are the Stephen King adaptation. Then there are some sort of, like, smaller movies, like, The Mangler or whatever that existed

and didn't really, like, make. But, like, once you reach a certain point and you get to, like, all the, like, those cable shows that you, like, had no idea were, like, what was the sci-fi channel show that was forever, that, uh... Bag of Bones? No, well, that one, too. Um, no, but the one with, um, uh, my friend's wrestler husband. Oh, like the ongoing series?

Haven. Was it called? Haven, yeah. Yeah. So I didn't, yes, I didn't do Haven because Haven was an ongoing series. Yeah. Thank God. I didn't do that.

I didn't do the Dead Zone TV show. Right, right, right. I didn't do like, but I did, I didn't do that because it wasn't based on a king work. Oh, right. It was based on the Lars von Trich. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I didn't do anything that he adapted.

No sequels unless they were based on a king, short story or novel um anyway i'm luckily i ended that podcast not podcast that was a ranking i ended the ranking before uh leasy's story oh we've talked about lecy's story we've talked about lecy's story oh i've talked with you about lecy story off offline many many a time yeah yeah it's um anyway i i got off track obviously um but delorses claiborne always a pleasure to revisit um you know in any context but especially when i have a reason to so chris did it fall in your ranking yeah yes super good question that I should have before I came here I would put this very high I think it was I think it was on the higher side my number one was

misery I do think that Kathy Bates is like you know the finest Stephen King actor in her three performances she has a cameo on the stand miniseries oh she does she's the talk show host that's right yeah I think that I think it's just those three yeah you know I I mean, like, you can't really argue with, like, misery or Dolores Claiborne. I mean, I'm sure someone can. It was definitely high. It was definitely high. And I actually watched this movie for that ranking when I was in Maine.

And I was, like, staying by myself in a little Maine town. It's, it's exactly what you'd expect was my experience of Maine. That's nice. But it was a fun movie to watch there. It's a very made movie. Like, you know, most even King adaptations are. But I think because Little Tall Island is like, a very distinctive kind of like on the water Stephen King location, which I believe is only

in one other. It's only otherwise in Storm of the Century, which was the original screenplay he did and he wrote for the ABC miniseries that I, yes, I've, I re it's all, it exists all or mostly all on YouTube. I don't know if it's streaming anywhere, but I like stumbled upon it on YouTube and just like watched the majority of it one day. And it's an interesting. It has the same problems that all of those Mick Garris directed ABC miniseries.

Which is so many of them. The Stand and the Langoliers and the Shining, the TV version of The Shining, which everybody really hated and I only, like, I kind of stick up for in certain little nooks and crannies. So do you like when the hedge animals, some of the worst CGI ever put on television? It's such a horrible CGI. No, here's the thing that I say about the Shining minisies. series. And this sort of goes into, we're going to have a lot of tangents in this episode, listeners. I'm just going to tell you right now. There's just going to be a lot of them, and we're just going to have to put up with them. The whole thing where Stanley Kubrick adapts the Shining in 1980, does his Stanley Kubrick thing, kind of looks down upon the source material and is like, I'm going to take from this what I want. I'm going to create this stunning and terrifying and, like, incredibly accomplished movie that every, everybody loves, and Stephen King hates, for reasons that I can't really hold against him. Because, like, it's his baby, you know what I mean? Like, he's the one who wrote the novel,

and then Stanley Kubrick sort of, like, changes the whole thing. And then Stephen King spends, like, two decades being, like, grumble, grumble, grumble. He ruined my book. And eventually this TV miniseries comes out, which is cheaper and chinsier. And it's Stephen Weber instead of Jack Nicholson. And, like, I think Rebecca DeMorne is actually. really good but um she is good hotel that it's inspired by right i think that's right or at least partially there are like so many hotels involved in like the inspiration of the shining or like they all hold festivals every year and they're all they're all they're all like we are the real overlook but i think the thing about the the the shining miniseries is i'm glad that something

exists that tells that story uh on so that he can backtrack and be like you know the movie's good well it's it also like it's they're too two separate things. And, like, there are thematic things that King does with the way that the Shining ends in terms of, like, I don't know, in terms of the Jack Torrance character, that, like, and because the Jack Torrance character was so tied up with him, because it was so tied up with his own alcoholism and his own substance abuse and his feelings of guilt about being a father while, you know, dealing with all that, that, like, I'm glad that he got to get that out at his system at least. But here's the thing, not that I'm going on a tangent, is that

Stephen King is wrong about the Shining. Stephen King is wrong about the character of Jack Torrance. And I feel like... In what way? Explain. In the way of like him, his problem being in part that Jack Nicholson is too crazy and scary from the beginning and that like the story is about the ghost of the hotel slash alcoholism infecting this character until he becomes like the scary violent man.

When like Jack Torrance already broke his son's arm and like is. a scary mean drunk and I think that he like hides it well yeah but I feel like I always had a hard time with that because I read it again and I was like this guy is like not a chill person and I don't think that like I mean Stephen Weber also is like not a very chill person to me just has like a little bit of a vibe sure but um I do feel like that complaint about the Kubrick shining is not fair I but his other thing is that the movie is like too cold which I think is like fine if you want to argue that the movie is completely its own thing and succeeds incredibly well on its own merits that's the i just wanted i just wanted to say he was wrong

about his own creation because you know Stephen king is also not in the position to really kind of i mean it's not just that the movie's its own thing and the book is his own thing it's like they're kind of diametrically opposed because like Stephen king for i think for the most part is a very literal artist like his version of the story is like yes ghosts essentially infect the man and create violence. Whereas, like, what Kubrick creates is, like, there is some open room for interpretation of whether or not this is all happening in reality that this man is an addict lapses and becomes violent or were ghosts there or not.

And that's part of what's so powerful of the movie. I just feel a little bad because, like, it really is, like, a hopeless task of being, like, the only person to argue against a movie that everybody loves and everybody thinks is brilliant and an artist that everybody agrees is like one of the greatest ever and to and to what's that I said Mick Garris is that and to argue from the position of like you know as like Stephen King cannot make a movie like you know Stanley Kubrick can but by that same token Stanley Kubrick couldn't write a book as good as the shining you know what mean and like I feel like people sort of brush past the second part like they're two artists on

completely different missions and yeah I and I think that but it's interesting because Stephen King has always been a very visual writer and you know his books feel like movies and that's but that's why they're adapted constantly and he's obviously been involved in so many adaptations of his work that it just it invites the comparison it invites the kind of like, you know, uh, debate over whether it's an accurate or like a fair adaptation or if it's better than the book or, you know, whatever it is. Um, and obviously, you know, I think he was a fan of Dolores Claiborne. It probably still is. He's obviously with us and still talks about movies constantly on Twitter. Um, but I believe he's a fan of Dolores Claybourne. I mean, I would say like

the movie that we're at least talking about today is one of the best books and certainly one of the best movies. It's what it's definitely one of the best adaptations. Chris, I don't know if we've ever talked about Stephen King on the podcast before and I kind of don't know what I read a shit ton of Stephen King as a teenager. I was going to say talk talk to remember being among my favorite. Give me your history with Stephen King because Stephen King sort of famously for me and when I say famously I mean a thing that I know is that's how I started that's how I got into reading as a sort of tweenager. I went through a period and sort of what you would call, middle school, my elementary school was K through 8, so we didn't really

have middle school. But like during those years, and I kind of really didn't like to read. And I was having trouble making the transition from, like, kid stuff to like reading grown-up books. And my dad had a bunch of Stephen King around the house. And so the one day, I, like a crazy person, picked up the unabridged and expanded version of the stand, which is like 1,100 pages. And I don't read grown-up books, but I will read this doorstop. And that was the first, like, book meant for adults that I ever read. And I was, I went through, like, a crazy Stephen King phase for the next, like, three or four years where I just read all his older stuff. So, like, yeah, there is at least, there's at least gay shit in the stand, although it is, um, it's violent.

It is gay rape, which it's then the least in a lot of Stephen King books, including the, yeah, I mean, anyway, we can talk about that separately. But, yeah, he has a problem with homicidal psychopaths who are a little gay. So, Chris, what were your faves as a teen reading? This misery, I also spent an entire summer reading The Stand. I mean, I also like the books that are like the short story books that are, you know, divided into pieces. Yeah. Is different seasons the one that has hearts in Atlantis? No, Hearts in Atlantis is the one that has Hearts and Atlantis.

Oh, Hearts and Atlantis has Hearts in Atlanta. Different Seasons is the one with the body, which is Stand By Me. That's the one that has Opt Pupil and Stand By Me. Yes, and Shawshank, I believe. Shoshank? Yeah, yeah. I read The Green Mile, which liked at the time, don't think I would devote the time to reading that book now. That's when I was really getting into it.

And I worked, that was when I was working at the Public Library was when the Green Mile was getting released serially. so that was that was interesting time and like bag of bones I think was new around that time and what a weird book oh yeah like that era that was sort of like the late when when he was getting a little past his prime I would say there are still like very good books after that I loved wasn't bag of bones post accident I think it was right before no I think it was because everything every post accident is like wild yeah like you know some of it's good to my if it's terrible, it's all just like Was Desperation one of the last ones before the accident or was it one of the first ones after the accident? I think it was one of the last ones before. That was earlier 90s because they adapted that. That was the

twin novel with the Bachman. The regulators. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot. I love. And the the audio book, which is how I think that was how I read Desperation the first time. I think I've read it twice was the audio book. I was on vacation. And I got the

the audio cassettes out of the library and I listen to it and that audio book was narrated by Kathy Bates. So I always hear the desperation when I think about that book, I hear it in Kathy Bates's voice because she does the voices and it's a whole thing. I was going to say my first Stephen King book was actually Carrie because I remember reading it in the fifth grade and like my teacher pulling me aside and being like, this is a book for grownups, but I think you can handle it. And like, someone's a pleasure to be mortified because at that point I was gaining some self-awareness and I was just fully retreating and like not wanting to be seen.

I, you know, I was not willing to be perceived. But also feeling like, oh, okay, she just gave me a compliment. I'm a grown-up now. One last thing, Lewis, before we get into your Oscar's origin story, is before we brought you in, Chris sort of. had a little bit of a reaction when I called this a horror film. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Because, like, it is an interesting genre mix in this movie. And would you, would you, because I know you are, you're a go-to person for me for, like,

the screen movies and Stephen King's stuff, but also, like, generally horror. So, like, where would you fall on that? I mean, I'm usually pretty generous with what I call horror. and I would, you know, I think it's totally reasonable to label this as horror. I don't know that it really falls into that category. And, you know, I think there's definitely horrific elements. There are like, but I think it like,

the scenes of horror, I think, stand out because that's not what the bulk of the movie is. Right. So those scenes stand out. I mean, I think that like the book to me was a very conscious, you know, I ended up reading a ton of Stephen King for that podcast. And when I got to Dolores Claiborne, it was like such a departure, not only because it was like the best female character he'd written up to that point. But I think because it just felt like it was very much playing in a different genre, which obviously he'd done before that. But I think, you know, I think it stands out for a reason.

If it's not the reteaming of Kathy Bates and Stephen King, it probably doesn't register as horror for me as I think about it. like, uh, and I, I imagine it's just sort of, that's my entry into this is because it's like, well, there is, there is that, that, that scene when she's, when, when Jennifer Jason Lee is like looking in the mirror and it's like the back of her head. That's a horror. That is a, that's a, that's a very, you know, a very obvious horror scene. So, you know, horror adjacent. So, uh, for a first time guest, Lewis, we want to ask you, um, about your Oscars, origin story. You're a, you know, a comic book guy and a buffiner and all that. So, like, I don't need to explain origin story for you. But what, where do you come into the Oscars sort of

culturally? Um, my origin story, I mean, my earliest memories, my parents used to have an Oscar party every year. So, like, that was like the first, like, social thing I remember doing. You and Carina Longworth had parents who threw Oscar parties. Every year, they threw an Oscar party and a New Year's Eve party. And the Oscar party was always much better. Although, you know, I think the Oscar party, it's different when you're in L.A. Because they end so much earlier. Like, whenever I try to do social Oscar stuff now, I'm, like, extremely tired because it's way too late.

Or even watching the Tony's was, you know, it just goes too late. Yeah. No, I mean, it was like a big part of my upbringing. And, yeah, I don't know. That was, I definitely, like, watched the Oscars long before I'd seen any of the movies nominated for Oscars. Sure. And it was always a deli catered affair. Sure.

So those are my associations with the Oscars. Were your parents, like, invested in certain movies winning or not winning? I don't know. I don't think so I think it was just an excuse to like I mean it was like L.A so people I don't know they weren't like with industry people but like people close enough to

to be to care my dad like is a you know both of them like see everything and care about movies but I don't remember them ever like I don't remember them ever being like super excited for any one movie to win I do remember them being appalled about broke back losing

because they're allies. Yes. So that's what I remember. But like, I don't, you know, I don't know where their heads were in the 90s. I don't know what they were like, you know, up in arms about. They love Billy Crystal, so that's really kind of... Well, that feels like a generational totem. Generational, Jewish.

It's just kind of like, that's really what you're there for is to see what Billy Crystal's going to sing. Well, I mean, yeah, weren't we all? All right, Lewis, we've dithered around for long enough. we're going to get into the mean potatoes of Dolores Claiborne. And before we do, we're going to have you deliver a 60-second plot description of the movie, just so as soon as I pull out my little stopwatch. But first, I'm going to run down the particulars for our listeners. We are talking about Dolores Claiborne, the 1995 film directed by Taylor Hackford,

written by Tony Gilroy, interestingly enough, based on the novel by Stephen King, starring Kathy Bates, Jennifer Jason Lee, David Stratharne, Christopher Plummer, Judy Parfit, John C. Riley, Alan Muth, Eric Bogogian, and Eric Bogosian. Did you notice that? He gets the and credit in this thing. That's a generous and credit, I feel like, in this for Successions Bernie Sanders, the analog, Eric Begotian. And Bob Gunton, who I should say, Chris, is already a five-timer without me noticing. He's gotten to five on our spreadsheet. So the next Bob Gunton movie, we're going to do a quiz. Is Bob Gunton the only person on the planet who has played both Sweeney Todd and Juan Perron? Wait, is that true? Yes. I didn't realize he was a big theater guy.

I think he was the Sweeney in the first revival that no one ever talks about. Oh, wow. Who was Mrs. Lovin and that one? That's a great question. I have to look it up While I'm having Lewis do a plot description Well now I'm just thinking about that production of Sweetie Todd But I can I can do a plot

Now that we've distracted you The film premiered on March 24th, 1995 Interestingly enough, the Friday before the Oscars of that year That was back when the Oscars were still on a Monday night And also when the Oscars were still in late March So not a 4th of July release then No No it somehow premiered out of

of season on March 24th, 1995. We'll talk on the other side of this about, like, how much Oscar buzz this movie actually had and whether I just want to talk about Dolores Claymore. But, Lewis, I have my stopwatch ready. If you are ready for a 60-second plot description, we can start. Okay, let me know when to start. All right, and go. Dolores Claiborne is a domestic servant who is accused of murder after she's found

holding a rolling pin over the bloody body of her employer, Vera Donovan. Dolores, a strange daughter, Selina, heads back to her childhood home of Little Tallinn. island where she hasn't been for 15 years. They haven't spoken since then because Selena believes that Dolores killed her father, Joe St. George. Dolores keeps flashing back to different moments of her life. We learned that even though Vera was a hard bitch, she and Dolores bonded and Dolores cared for her after a debilitating stroke. Vera had actually tried to kill herself and was begging Dolores to finish the job before she died from her injuries. We also learned that Joe was an abusive monster and that Dolores has been stashing away money so that she and Selena could escape him.

In the past, when Dolores discovers that Joe has been sexually abusing their daughter and stole all the money she'd saved, she tells Vera, who points. out that an accident can be an unhappy woman's best friend. Dolores uses the distraction of a total solar eclipse to lure Joe into an abandoned well where he dies. In the presence, Selena remembers what her father did to her and forgets Dolores and manages to get her off the hook for Vera's death, maybe a little too cleanly. Boom, with five seconds to spare, Lewis Pitesman, very good.

It was like barely intelligible, but it was there. No, it's good. I've been much more motor-muffs and rather than rather than a long time. Well done. So lots to get into just in terms of the plot of the this movie. But let's, I guess we should start with the screenplay adaptation, because as Chris mentioned, uh, this was a pretty significant overhaul from the structure of the book. And also there are things like in the book, Dolores has three kids. And in this one, it's paired down to one because

that's all you really need. You know, the two kids are like beyond extraneous, uh, in the story anyway. Drag them. Um, but and then, and, and in sort of fleshing things out, like them kids. Um, So, Lewis, you re-read the novel in preparation for this podcast. I did not. Oh, okay. When you said you reread it, I didn't know when you reread it. No, no, no, no. I read it for that podcast I did years ago.

Yes, yes, I did, like, look things up to, you know, refresh my memory. Is Selena a character who was back in Little Tall in the book or no? I don't believe, they're not, they're also not, they're not as strange in the way that they are in the movie. And that's one of the, the biggest change of the movie is kind of like focusing more on that relationship, which is not really the point of the novel, which is more just Dolores kind of like excavating her memories. Right. To explain why she didn't kill this woman, but also how she did kill her husband. Yes. So the Jennifer Jason Lee character is fleshed out.

The Christopher Plummer character, if he exists as that name in the book, he's certainly not this like, vengeful figure from Dolores' past come back to try and nail her to the cross again the way he is in this. Christopher Plummer in a movie where everybody at some point or another is sort of over the top in a way that I think ultimately works. Christopher Plummer

is delicioso in this. He really just sort of like tears into this role. It's really second only kind of to Judy Parfit who is a wonder in this thing. The book does have that great um like reveal about vera though that the movie does not have which is that she like um she george and martha her kids yes her kids are dead and she like yes she pretends they're alive and they're and she talks

about them the whole time and it's like they've actually they died in the car accident years ago right and that they and that that uh dolores didn't even know and she assumed that the money was going to go the money and the money and the will was going to go to them and that's a big part of the reason why she's so shocked that uh that she's inheriting this money yes The book and the movie both make reference to the fact that Vera arranged to have her husband killed in the car accident. That monologue she gives where she goes, husbands die every day and leave their wives their money. Sometimes they're coming home from their mistress's house. It's so good.

The brakes go out in their car. She's so good. So Tony Gilroy at this point hasn't made. the transition into being a director, but he was a, like, real prolific screenwriter up until this point anyway. And I think it's a really, like, I think the book is great too, but I think it's, obviously, you couldn't adapt the book directly as a movie because it's just so limited. And I think it's a really smart adaptation. It's not, yeah, it definitely expands on what the book has in it.

But I do think that it's like, it's tonally not that far from it. And some of the lines are directly lifted in a way that you can't normally. I mean, just because the book is written in Dolores's voice. Oh, and Stephen King indulges that a lot in his books, where he like, he'll phonetically spell out. Like, there's so many that main accent with, like, gory and, and, uh, I know the books are littered with, like, all the, all the main people just being like, yeah. um and so like that to me anytime that kind of stuff makes its way into the movies i'm like oh yeah that's that's stephen king for you but i do think a lot of i think a lot of those lines

that are like so iconic in the movie are directly from the book i'd have to double check on like all of them but i believe so that that all those uh all the great ones um i like that the the poster uses the sometimes an accident can be an unhappy woman's best friend which is obviously like a great line but we all like it should be the line about you know being a bitch sometimes being a bitch is all the woman has to hold on to they could have put it on the poster but they should have it's like the point of the movie um it's so i want to run down tony gilroy's uh screenwriting credits very briefly because it's a really interesting and a lot of these were i imagine rewrites like he's the sole credited screenwriter on dolores claiborne

but, like, he's a credited screenwriter on The Devil's Advocate, which I imagine was a movie that probably went through a few rounds of rewrite. Same with Armageddon, which he is one of, hold on. Probably no less than 17 screenwriting. Actually, it's only three, but one of them is J.J. Abrams. It's Tony Gilroy, J.J. Abrams, and Jonathan Hensley. And I imagine those are three different passes at this screenplay. Well, he's credited as adaptation by.

So is that like, he just took a, yeah, okay. So that was a late pass? His first screenplay credit is the cutting edge, though, which just makes me absolutely adore him. And that is a sole credited screenwriter. So that's all him. He's the man who wrote topick, and that's good enough for me. But like proof of life, the born identity, the born supremacy.

And then his directorial debut is, the proof of life, by the way, is another Taylor Hackford movie. so clearly Gilroy and Hackford will eventually do Proof of Life but Michael Clayton is the big one in 2007 where he writes and directs and gets an Oscar nomination and I love that movie so so much

and I also love Duplicity which is a movie that bombed at the box office and kind of killed Clive Owen's career as a leading man like at some point the studios were just like we're just not giving Clive Owen leading roles anymore

and it's a bummer because it was like, well, children of men didn't make any money and duplicity didn't make any money. And it's just like, yeah, but they were all so fucking good. Do you know what Clive Owen was in, Joe? What's that? Do you know what Clive Owen was in? Leesie's story? Lecy's story.

He sure fucking was. Oh, God. Christ almighty. As was Jennifer Jason Lee. So, yeah. Chris, where do you come down on the adaptation? I mean, I think all of the you know changes

to make it cinematic make complete sense to me like I don't think that any of them are bad decisions I think that there might be some pacing issues that I can't tell if I feel like that's at fault of the screenplay or Taylor Hackford's direction

but I mean all of these decisions make complete sense and this is still a very like propulsive movie for the most part and you know even though we're not told all of this in monologue we still get really uh into dolores's head um yeah it's implied that she is monologuing a lot though like she's like sitting down to the table yeah talking to her daughter for like i don't know

an hour you'll get a long flashback segment and then they'll come back and you'll realize by something that selina has said like oh dolores has just been telling her this this is her yeah yeah he found these like screenwriting tricks to keep the interiority of what you know is essentially all mostly memory right right there is a pacing thing that I didn't really I didn't think about it until watching it this time and I think it's smart that like it's basically halfway through the movie when you see how Vera actually died so that's not really like the big reveal and then you kind of like the climax being seeing how Joe died but then like it sort of hinges on, like, the last actual reveal is, like, the sexual abuse, which, like, we don't

actually, I feel like by that point, kind of assume happened. Like, there's no reason why that would be. I just feel like it's a weird. The movie kind of leads to that big moment. Well, and it's supposed to be that, well, this is Selena finally remembering. Right. But I think, but it plays as a shock to the audience that this is, like, a reveal to us. And it's like, yeah.

And at that point, we don't, we don't necessarily need that information. I think because the movie is juggling these two mysteries, essentially, we get, they kind of oscillate back and forth between the two of them, and we get pieces and pieces to where both of them kind of become predictable. Yeah. In the way that the story is structured, it's like it releases information to us that we kind of already know or have figured out. And maybe that's also just because this is a two-hour-plus movie that maybe doesn't need to be. but yeah I mean like structurally it all makes sense to me it's just maybe imperfect they're still good so no yeah I get that and I think at the very least allows for Kathy Bates and Jennifer Jason Lee to sort of take center stage with this which is basically what you want out of this movie and Taylor Hackford's an interesting angle on this Mr. Helen Mirren himself

who is a director who I think people are always surprised at the movies that he's directed sort of throughout his career where it's like he directed an officer and a gentleman which was like he was a DGA nominee for that he directed against all odds he directed White Knights which if that's not when he met Helen Mirren like certainly she stars she's one of the stars in that white Knights is of course the cinematic excuse for the Phil Collins Marilyn Martin's song to be nominated for an Oscar what the hell's the title of that Chris you know it

Separate lives No that's separate lives Against All odds is against all odds Separate lives Which is one of my favorite Very hammy 80s Oscar

That's not nominees After Dolores Claiborne It's a real interesting run Devil's Advocate Proof Life Again both of those with Tony Gilroy

And then gets Best Picture and best director nominations for Ray, which is his last sort of big movie. Like, Love Ranch barely showed up. Parker,

the Jason Statham, Jennifer Lopez movie. Like, there's a Jason Statham, Jennifer Lopez movie that nobody has seen. Nobody talks about. Like, it's crazy to me. Directed by Taylor Hackerard, yeah. And then that De Niro movie,

The Comedian, which also nobody saw. So, like, it's wild the cliff he falls off of directly after his biggest, you know, professional accomplishment with Ray. He makes some interesting choices in Dolores Claiborne, and a lot of them are very obvious choices. I think you think of things like the color filters on like the chilly present versus the, you know, the sunny sort of warm, warm filtered past, right? Like winter versus summer and that whole kind of thing. but, like, things like a character sort of turning and seeing someone from the past, and then all of a sudden you're in a different timeline.

I have some conflicted feelings about this, because you kind of feel like you're pushing it in the direction of calling some of that stuff corny, whereas, like, I feel like I can't decide or figure out or deduce if the movie is just, like, begging to become this, like, Douglas CERC women's I don't think you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong. Or he's pushing it in that direction. And I think it's a brilliant choice or like that's what this material kind of is.

But he doesn't have the goods to get it there or that's not really his style because it's like it's almost there. It's not quite. But look at the screen grab that Lewis has behind him on the Zoom. This is a solar eclipse show. So just keep that in mind. But it's the solar eclipse happening. But it's the eclipse within. It's the shot with Dolores staring down into the well, and the, you know, rapidly eclipsing sun is behind her, and the sky is this, like, these, the colors are, are not, like, even for eclipse colors.

They're just, like, incredibly vivid and, and not quite real. Everything is just this side of surreal. And that's where I think your thing about, like, I didn't want to say Douglas Cirque, because I thought you might slap me from, from several states away, Chris. but like no that's sort of I mean like I think that's kind of what I don't know like I feel like it's so close to getting there and there's something that's holding it back yeah what makes me feel like it's almost accidental that that's where Taylor Hackford ends up except for the fact that like look at the subject matter though it's like this is very melodrama heavy subject matter this is you mentioned woman's picture right like she's just this you know you read some of the original reviews like especially Owen Glyberman my name as a review for it. Like, he is always like, uh, these movies of the week, these trashy subject matter where it's like, you say that about

any movie that's about a woman. Sure. And suddenly it's movie of the week territory to these assholes. And like, it's all such, um, uh, you know, it's like, it's also derogatory

towards a movie of the week. Um, right. Which we don't really have those anymore, but like, contextually it's like issue movies finger quotes and like this is a pretty harrowing movie about domestic abuse and childhood sexual abuse and apparently that's just like a trite topic to like some of these guys I'm going to bring this up as with the full knowledge that we are three cisgender men talking about this movie which was written by cisgender man adapted by a cisgender man and directed by cisgender man

would have been interesting to have a woman in some level of the creative hierarchy in this movie somewhere right like am I the only person who sort of thought of that I know and I was thinking about the Stephen King of it all because when you read this

and you read Gerald's game which are obviously I wanted to bring that up yeah thank you. He was very much trying to course current and trying to, like, give women interiority in a way that he had never really managed to do. And I think, I think, like, the word that I use when I'm talking about Stephen King's female characters, like, Dolores Claiborne on is, like, well-intentioned. There's, like, definitely, like, an attempt being made here, but he doesn't quite get there. And there are always kind of things holding him back and not to be reductive about it.

Like, I think part of it probably is a gender thing. And Stephen King also is just, like, generationally and where he's from and his background. he kind of always get stumbled a little bit. And I think the movie, um, actually deepens the characters and obviously makes Selena an actual character, but it still can't quite get there. Sure. Um, so it, it, it's, um, the thing that I like in terms of, uh, those characters, though is that like the movie, the opening the movie and kind of the first half an hour is

like how it, they're super unlikable and they're, and they're cold and they're kind of unpleasant in a way that I would love to see, I don't know, like, I, they obviously soften, especially like Dolores and learning more about her, but I kind of just like that they are being hard bitches and that it's like called out and that it's very much an intentional choice. All three major or main female characters in this movie say the same line about being a bitch is the only thing a woman has to watch. Which is why I'm using the word bitch in a, in a celebratory way in quoting the movie. that's right um being a hard bitch and being a cold bitch obviously is something to celebrate one thing

you made me remember uh because uh you mentioned the connection of this of dolores claiborne and gerald's game and i want to talk about that in a second but stephen king also wrote a book in the 90s that i actually never read called rose matter which i remember there being talk of kathy bates being in an adaptation of that as well that i believe was going to be an hbo movie and it never came to pass. Do you remember anything about that one, Lewis? Does that... I remember that I didn't read it.

But it was, it was discussed. It was like very, he was very deliberately trying to, like, include women in his writing. And, like, I think that Dolores Claiborne and Gerald's game are, like, his most overtly feminist novels, flaws and all. Like, they very much are, you know, and they're obviously both about abuse. child sexual abuse and eclipses but they're

you know that's like Stephen King feminism so Gerald's game not the eclipses part but the eclipse is just you know nothing that happens

well he always has connective tissue through all of his stories this however is connected to Little Shop of Horrors because the day of the eclipse when Dolores

lets her husband dies the day that Audrey 2 arrives in a city somewhere else in the United States yeah So I believe Dolores Claiborne and Gerald's Game were both published in the same year, or if not the same year, like within a year of each other, like very close together. He does this every once in a while where he'll twin novels. I mentioned desperation and the regulators, even though that was technically a Richard Bachman student in him.

But Gerald's Game was somewhat recently adapted. I think it was like 2017, 2018 by Mike Flanagan, before Mike Flanagan did the, Dr. Sleep. But after he had done, what's the one with Karen Gillen? Oculus. Yeah, Oculus. Hush, which I actually really liked,

which was a Netflix movie with John Gallagher Jr. I believe a movie that no longer exists on Netflix. Oh, is it not on Netflix anymore? I might be wrong. I might be wrong. I think at some point I thought it was going to be removed from Netflix, but I actually can't keep track. Gerald's game is still there because I went and I watched the

Yes, I watched it on Netflix. You just watched the de-gloving scene. You didn't watch any of the... I actually came in right after the de-gloving scene because I wanted to see the thing with the monster, the scary necro-necropheliac. You didn't watch the part where she literally connects with Dolores.

No, well, I watched that part. I think I skipped around the de Gloving. That's what I did. Okay. So the thing of... Oh, so in the Gerald's game, was it a movie or a miniseries? There is a sequence where she, like, psychically connects with Dolores Claiborne.

Yeah, it's the same as in the book where she, when she's like... It's a little bit more pronounced in the book, but yes. She sees herself at the bottom of the well looking up at Dolores, but she doesn't know who Dolores is. Right. And, like, Mike Flanagan, his whole thing, which obviously Dr. Sleep, is the same way where he adapts Stephen King, but also, like, adapts the movies. And so, like, visually, the eclipse in Gerald's game looks a lot like the eclipse in Dolores Claiborne. And then when she's describing Dolores, she's actually describing the book cover of Dolores Claybourne of the red dress. But, yes.

So there's a very direct connection, which is also in the book, that, like, these two, because it's also, you know, I mean, in Gerald's game, what's her name? Now I can't think of it. Jessie. Jesse. Yeah, she was sexually abused by her father while watching the eclipse. While watching the eclipse. So then she's like psychically linked to Dolores to, I guess, Joe somehow. She's seeing from the bottom of the well where he's, you know, dying.

But yes, there's some sort of psychic connection. Yeah. That she, Jesse, after she suffers this abuse sort of disassociates and and sees Dolores. At the same time that Dolores, while she is waiting for, Joe to essentially die at the bottom of the well, Dolores sees this little girl who she doesn't know and like neither one of them ever met each other after the fact it's just this sort of like psychic connection that exists between

these two books and if you'd only ever read one and not the other you probably would like give it a little bit of thought and then like not really because it doesn't really, it's a hanging thread but like not much of anything but it connects the two stories and understandably Tony Gilroy and Taylor Hackford take that part out of the movie because it doesn't really

there's nothing there's no film for it to correspond to. But they do leave in the Shawshank mention which I like which I was like we really could have had that 90s Stephen King Cinematic Universe if they had just leaned in we were so close

and yeah Flanagan coming later includes that part So, but yeah, it's always been a really interesting Easter egg connection between those two. Oh, what was the next thing I wanted to bring up to? Eh, I lost it. Chris, think of something. We haven't brought up David Strathairn.

Tell the listeners the text you sent me as you were watching. I sent it to books. I was like, I got this text, too, because I definitely recall that text. Jesus. All right, Chris. There is a moment in the movie where clearly when they have, you know, digitized the movie and made it a higher image quality for streaming, you can see through the fabric of his underwear as he's like shoving his ass at the camera. And I was like, wow, Strathairn really posted hole in this movie. But like, I had the same thought watching it.

I was like, I don't remember his full. It's full butt hole being in this movie. It's not just crack. It's not, it's definitely, I'm just, I mean, Chris is not wrong, it's all I'm saying. Release the butthole cut of Dolores Claybourne. Is that what you're saying? Like, we need the whole, uh,

the thing about Strath-Aren in this movie, though. Listeners know I love David Strath-Aren. Listeners know, I think David Strath-Aren is so hot. I think he's the weakness of this movie. I think it's not his best work. I will say. It's not his best work. And maybe it's because to do this level of monstrousness that's very, very broad,

even though he's doing obviously horrible things in the movie. He's just maybe not right for that character. He's not right for this, what the movie is asking him to do, where it's asking him to go. The movie isn't exactly... It's very snarly and... The movie isn't exactly asking for subtlety. Yeah. But, but I think that, well, no, but I think that, like, one of the hard things about that is that, like, obviously, like, you know, a child is going to feel protective of their parent. But the idea that Selena would be so, it would have such a hard time believing that her father was abusive. You know, sexual abuse aside, he was abusive to Dolores. And, like, she can't, she only remembers Dolores hitting him when she smashed a glass on his head. Um, so it's a little bit harder to swallow that when you kind of see this. person who is only allowed to play those moments of like yeah you know he suddenly becomes really

angry and violent uh to believe that he would be someone you'd be like i can't imagine him hurting anyone well even when he's like being sweet to her before we in the early parts of the movie before we know the the the depths of his uh his monstrousness even those parts it's like i don't know like i'm sure every like you know little kid loves their you know love their parent when they're being nominally sweet. But, like, it's not like he's, like, this great dad that, like, we find out eventually is, like, all been a lie. He's just sort of, he's slovenly, and he's, you know, just sort of sits on his lounge chair,

or his armchair with a beer and watches the socks or whatever, and it's just like, okay, like. Well, like many Stephen King Fathers, he is an alcoholic. Well, so there's also that. Yeah. All right, we're going to talk about Jennifer Jason Lee for a moment, who at this same year, she's in that movie, Georgia, where she plays the sort of hard-living, very difficult rocker chick. I just watched this for the first time. Oh, what did you think? I think watching this at the same, watching these two movies at the same time, while I think she is very, very good in Dolores Claiborne,

It really puts the Dolores Claiborne performance at a disadvantage because she is so good in Georgia. It is not only shocking that she didn't get the nomination for Georgia, but that they still gave it to Mayor Winningham, who... Is the nicer character? It is the nicer character, and probably one of those situations where it's like everyone had worked with her and they're happy to see her do well, but, like, there's not as much for her to do except for Slay hard times. I feel like that's why she got that Oscar nomination. It was also a much less competitive category. I've tweeted about this before, though, but I just want to run down the list of the competition for Best Actress in 1995,

which I made the joke on Twitter that, like, gay slash movie Twitter would not have survived the 1995 Best Actress Race because, like, genuinely, your winner that year is Susan Sarandon for Dead Man Walking. She had been nominated three times in four years. She was, you know, incredibly, that Oscar was a long time. coming, nominated against Meryl Streep for the Bridges of Madison County, Elizabeth Shue for

leaving Las Vegas, which was this big, like, comeback movie, but also, like, even when Elizabeth Shue was starring in things like Adventures and Babesitting, nobody thought that she had this kind of dramatic performance in her, so it was this, like, Revelation performance as well. Emma Thompson for

Sense and Sensibility, which has the added hook of her writing the screenplay adaptation. She wins the Oscar for the screenplay. Sharon Stone, for Casino, who won the Golden Globe, beat Susan Sarandon for the Golden Globe that year, also was another, like, the narrative on Sharon Stone

was, you know, going back to basic instinct, and she had been so disrespected for that performance, and so the nomination for Casino was a long time coming. And then not nominated for Oscar, you have Nicole Kidman for To Die For, who won the Comedy Golden Globe, Jennifer Jason Lee for Georgia, who won the New York

Film Critics at Best Actress Prize. Annette Benning for the American President was a Globe nominee, Julianne Moore for Todd Haynes is Safe who was an independent spirit nominee Tony Colette for Muriel's wedding which was like a big sort of import sensation

got a Golden Globe nomination Julie Delpy for Before Sunrise was probably never like seriously in the conversation but she's so good in that movie and that movie's so good Alicia Silverstone and Clueless which like a different year there's maybe some MTV generation drumbeat for that performance Angela Bassett and waiting to exhale which like

Spike Lee justifiably raised Holy Hell after those nominations came out that there were no black nominees and that waiting to exhale was completely outside of that conversation. I also threw in Parker Posey for Party Girl because she was like an indie sensation that year.

It's just from the contenders to the outsiders to everywhere in between, you could come up with a killer top five in any you know in any combination of that list it's really incredible and jennifer jason lee was if not considered like sixth place was like probably one of her and kidman were probably the two who were like closest to uh getting that nomination and i remember after the fact people the critics being like

Jennifer Jason Lee got robbed, and she had just previously been robbed for Mrs. Parker in the Vicious Circle, and then before that, for Miami Blues, and she was this, like, great actress of her generation who kept not getting nominated. And now her only nomination is for that horrible movie from Quentin Territfully, yeah. But the thing about her in Dolores Claiborne is, Georgia aside, I think it's a really strong performance. I think it's, I think it comes into its own in that final scene where she has that monologue where she makes her mother's case to Christopher Plummer. And the beginning of the movie has, I love a movie that like a 90s movie that really like lays out all the stereotypical

like 90s totems of whatever character we're portraying. In this case, it's the New York City single girl who like is on pills and smokes all the time and only wears black and is fucking her boss and yeah like this whole thing like there is just oceans of stereotype to to selina but i think she's great i don't know louis what did you think of jennifer jasonly i think she's great too although i will say that i think that last scene is like maybe my least favorite part of the movie um because of how it wraps things up kind of bizarrely I don't think she's bad in that scene

Bizarrely how wait I want to hear it bizarrely how It's very like I mean that's I think the most Like kind of TV movie of it all Sure it's just like she comes in with a speech And they're like you know Christopher Plummer who by that point has become such a like You know Dog with a Bone about

Getting Dolores Claybourne in prison is like You know gonna let it go because of Jennifer Jason Lee's impassioned speech Which was a good speech which was a good speech. It's just a little bit. It's like silly in a way that I don't love where I think a lot of the movie is silly in a way that I do love.

Sure, sure. I think I'm a sucker for a courtroom monologue, and that's like, it's not in a courtroom, but it's mostly a courtroom monologue. It's a courtroom monologue. It's a courtroom monologue. I mean, like, I think it, at the same time, like, you know, legally I don't think they had a great case, right?

No. That's circumstantial evidence and, you know, but whatever. I think no jury would convict. Kathy Bates. There's also a point in the movie, speaking of legally, there's a point in the movie where Dolores and Selena are made aware of the will and told that she's the beneficiary

of $1.6 million. And as they're walking away from this, you know, meeting with Plummer and Jonsie Riley, Jennifer Jason Lee is like, well, you can afford a lawyer now, so I'm going to go back to the city. And I'm like, do you not know how probate works? Because like, genuinely, like,

she doesn't just get this much. money now. Like, she's being tried for murder. Right, when you're, when you're, right, when you're, like, accused of killing Yeah, you're not getting that money. You don't just, like, get that $1.6 million. It's like, can I take an advance out of this, like, ill-gotten inheritance to pay for the lawyer?

You know what, it's, it's, it's, it's main. There's a murder tax. It's a very cozy state. They probably would let you just kind of borrow what you need. Right, right, right. Um, I will say the art direction and the sort of, like, the depiction of this, like, even for a Stephen King Main Town, this is like desolate. This is like

all, like, the only motel closed up five years ago and this house that like she has to move back into after she has to leave Vera Donovan's house, is this like I would have maybe believed all of that if this was made during like a recession.

Well, when was the early 90s recession? But it also depends on time of year, right? Because there are so many main towns that are like very lively. In the summer. In the summer and then are like completely dead, you know, outside of that. And Vera only lives in that house until she moves there full time.

Right. When her husband dies, like, she had only lived there in the summer. Yeah. So I do think that, like, there are main towns that are not, like, depressingly desolate in the same way, but that are quite empty when it's not, like, tourist season. Interesting that you say that she lived there in the summer and that the 4th of July happens in the summer. And yet we're all getting on my case.

I don't think you're, I don't think you're wrong when it's a summery movie. I think it's a very, it's a warm film. There are obviously very many warm tones. See the sun quite a bit. They are outside. I think if it is a very sunny movie. Even when the sun is covered by the moon, that's how eclipses work, right?

Or is it the Earth, I'm a terrible astronomy. Is it like, is it the Earth? Depends on the type of eclipse. The solar eclipse is when the moon passes in front of the sun. The lunar eclipse is when the sun passes between, the sun the earth passes between the sun obviously I know where things are aligned in the in the you ever I'm not an idiot I clearly knew that

oh I am I need to what I what I will say is that when I was watching this I looked up because there is a solar a total solar eclipse happening next year I know it's gonna hit Buffalo and it's the it's the last one until 2044 so I did look up we're not seeing that next one where I could well let's be optimistic but I did I did look where I could stay so

Dolores Claiborne Come to Buffalo. We're supposed to be able to get like a perfect view of it. Everybody's invited. By everybody I mean YouTube. I will.

I will go up to Buffalo. You should. Okay. We'll discuss later. We'll commit a murder. We're going to kill David Strathair. I do appreciate that. Delors Claiborne makes the clips

look more fun because you're going to kill a horrible person. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas I watch this and then I watch Gerald's game where the eclipse is like. Less fun. Really not fun at all. But yeah. I like this version.

The filter that Mike Flanagan uses for the eclipse in Gerald's game is the fake blood from scream, you know, when Skeet Ulrich is like, ooh, corn syrup or whatever. He just pours that over the lens of the camera. It's like the scene in the shining where the elevator blood comes off and it splashes in front of the camera and it's like red. Like that is the filter that Mike Flanagan puts on for the eclipse. And you know what it works for me. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm not saying it was.

I'm not saying it was a bad choice, but it's like it's the reddest of reds. Can we talk about Kathy? We haven't really talked about Kathy. Okay, this is why this movie had Oscar buzz in my mind. It's because it's Kathy. I think this is a performance that goes

fully toe to toe with any of those long list of names that we gave. I feel like she is absolutely elevating this movie at just about any point I think I mean

I'm not gonna like go to the hyperbole of it's as good as her other Stephen King performance that that won her an Oscar but I think it's pretty damn close

they're really distinct and interesting roles too yeah Lewis what do you feel like how do you feel about the about Kathy Bates the Kathy of it all yeah I mean she's

she's fantastic. I think what I was talking about earlier about how unlikable they are at the beginning, I find to be, it's such an, I mean,

obviously you kind of get like the inverse of Annie Wilkes where she seems like extremely pleasant, maybe a little bit creepy to start, and then it's like terrifying. Yeah. And violent.

Whereas Dolores seems like someone who probably would kill her employer. And then, and then like you get these flashbacks where it's a different, you know, it's a warmer color scheme.

and she's smiling, and even though she's in this horrible marriage, like, is finding joy and her daughter. Yeah, I think that it's, it is really good. I think it is really distinctive, as you said. I don't, I mean, I don't know. You'll have to tell me from your area of expertise, like, if there would have been, like, a lack of interest in giving Kathy Bates nomination for a second Stephen King adaptation years apart. There's something to misery as an Oscar-winning movie that feels like it's not quite like you get this once and that's it, but like there's a lightning-in-a-bottle aspect to it because it really isn't for as much as I jotted down Stephen King's sort of Oscar's history leading up to Dolores Claiborne, where Carrie is 1976, Sissy Spaceick, it's the best actress nomination, she loses to fade. done away for network. Piper Lorry is also nominated in supporting actress. Stand by Me, I had forgotten about this entirely of a stand by me as an adapted screenplay nominee in its year,

lost to a room with the view. And then Kathy Bates wins Best Actress in 1990 for Misery. And then in 94, the Shawshank Redemption gets seven nominations. But the nature of the Kathy Bates role, that she is an unadulterated horror movie villain. It is a genre that the Oscars, even when they dabble in, need it to be like really artistic usually and I think you know Kerry being a you know Brian De Palma very stylish movie very sort of like 70s stylish that kind of thing and the fact that I think Kathy Bates sort of rides to that that best actress win in part because misery is a really popular you know commercial hit and also sort of a cultural hit and that like that you know that movie was sort of on the tip of everybody's tongue, and it's a populist win, and I think then

Dolores Claiborne comes along five years later, and we're talking about this on this podcast, mostly because one would imagine that Kathy Bates doing another Stephen King adaptation, five years after her Oscar win, that at least some people would have been like, let's keep an eye on that, maybe you never know. But I do feel like sometimes Oscar voters are like, well, we let you have one. and and you know for a genre that is a little bit outside of their preference realm that sometimes they're just like yeah we're not going to do that again i'm trying to think of like other i think there's two things kind of holding that back one she's at two very different stages of her career with either of these movies with misery like yes all of those things that you mentioned were in her favor but she was also an incredibly respected theater actress who struggled to break into films too too. Yeah. And like she talked about that point in her career too, but she'd been on the stage for things like Frankie and Johnny. She'd been on the stage. She didn't get the Frankie and Johnny movie. Right. Nightmother. And, you know, that's what she has leading into misery. Leading into Dolores Claiborne, you know, she's already an Oscar winner. She's doing movies now. And, you know, it's. It's kind of like you said, not just that you only get one, but it's just, it's, you know, do people end up rooting for Kathy Bates maybe when she feels like less of an underdog than she felt before?

I think also just because it is such a strong best actress field, as I mentioned, that like there was really no call for people filling out ballots to reach back to March, to think of contenders, that there were already plenty of contenders. in the fall, you know, months in the latter half of the year that there really was no need to, you know, reach that far back. And even though I think it's an incredibly worthy performance, one of the things... Well, and there's also a long history

of, you know, critics groups, though Kathy Bates did get a mention from the Chicago critics for this movie and the Academy not recognizing this type of movie, not recognizing the women. Melodrama movie, you know, and pushing that into, like, its own, like, you know, something they maybe look down their nose at. Yeah.

There's a part in the book that I remember, and I haven't read this book since I was a teenager, genuinely, but I remember there's a part in the movie where Dolores talks about how Vera was very specific about the bed linens, about how she had to go down the hill, and hang them on the clotheslines down there because she wanted the south-southern breeze to blow through her linens. And Vera's yelling down, you know, Dolores, six pins, not five. And I remember in the book, Stephen King describes that kind of at length. This idea of in the winter months, she would go down, and the sheets would be steaming hot coming out of the washer. And they would, like, they talk about it in the movie a little bit.

They show her hands, and her hands are very, you know, worn, like, time-worn and worked very hard. But he lingers on it in the book quite a bit about how just this idea of, like, the incredibly hot sheets and the very cold weather just, like, ravaged her hands. And I remember thinking, like, that was a thing that the movie reminded me of in. And Kathy's performance in the present day scenes in the movie, it's like it's one big sort of calloused hand of a performance. You know what I mean? Like everything, it's on her face. It's in her posture.

It's in the way she like walks and it's in her, you know, she's got a colorful vocabulary even in the flashback scenes. But like in the present day, I did write down, what are you the grand high pooh-bah of upper butt crap? which is a Stephen King line, if I've ever heard one. But it's like her delivery of it is really, really something. Did I write down any of the other ones that she says about, I don't know. There's just like there's a lot of, oh, at one point, one of the characters,

I'm just sort of looking at my notes right now. I think it's Selena references Gene Harris. She makes like a passing reference to Gene Harris, who is, do you remember, remember the HBO TV movie, Mrs. Harris with Annette Benning, where she plays the woman who killed the Scarsdale Diet Doctor? Is this the one that Ellen Burstyn got an Emmy nomination for like eight seconds? For like eight seconds. Yes, yes. That's the one. So, and it reminded me that there's a Seinfeld episode that Raquel Welch is in, where the joke is that she's in the, She's in the stage musical called Scarsdale Surprise, which is a stage musical about the Scarsdale

Dr. Murder. And I'm like, this must have been like a huge, like true crimey thing in the early 90s that like nobody talks about anymore because like it's like it's referenced in all of these like odd little corners of pop culture that like there was the way it's referenced in Dolores Claiborne is just assumed that everybody like knows what she's talking about. And I was like, wait a second. I had to look it up. um i really enjoyed clear on that journey with you thank you to places that i could never have

uh that's that's what this podcast is for louis that's why we're here um i also wrote down the the the rolling pin from the opening scene where she's you know vera goes down the stairs and we're supposed to think that that dolores shoved her and then dolores is ransacking the kitchen for something and the kettles going off or whatever but she grabs this rolling pin to one assumes bludgeon this woman in the head to like put her out of her misery not to quote a film title um this rolling pin is made of pure marble and would probably have like put an entire hole in this woman's skull had she like actually she was a frail old lady a frail old woman and dolores like this rolling pin is like the biggest like just circumference wise just this like giant beast of a rolling pin of

solid white marble. And it's terrifying to imagine what if you want to if she wanted to get her like acute like on trial for murder probably a good way to do that would be having her bash in vera's face with a giant rolling pin. Like I am imagining in the courtroom like bring in the murder weapon and like three men are hauling this thing together because no one person can carry it. I know she's panicking but you she could just like put her hand over her mouth and nose. Uh huh. Perhaps. Well that's I mean that's Selena's sort of a, uh, sort of closing argument, too, right at the end. She's just like, you know, of all the ways she could have chosen to deftly get this money, she decides to, you know, throw this woman down a flight of stairs and broad daylight in front of the goddamn postoff, or a postal worker, and then ransack the kitchen for a rolling pin. That little busybody, too. What are you going into people's houses if you're the mailman? It's Maine.

It's Maine, and it's little, it's little tall island. and everyone's door is open and the town is dead. He has three people to see all day. What do you think Christopher Plummer does with his like days when he's not trying to get Dolores Claiborne thrown into prison? Well, he's in from out of town. They make mention of that at the beginning because he's on the phone with somebody and he's like, Oh, right. Okay.

He was just there before and he's back? Yes. Yes. He's back in town. He like has come in from out of town. That's how much he wants to nail Dolores. He's the summer investigator. Right.

Got it. But he also, his very first thing you see him, he complains about the town not having a fax machine. And like, the fax machine is such an important part of this movie. And it's like the 1999 of it all where Celine is like, give me the cover letter. She gets the fax of the thing. And she's like, give me the cover letter who sent this. And it reminded me that in that same year, this is the same year as the usual suspects, which like the twist of that movie hinges on. a slow-ariving fax of Kevin Spacey's face, like, sketched. And it arrives too late for them to know that he's a... The Kobayashi mug. In the 90s, we got a lot of, like, mileage out of slow technology. Yes. Slowly downloading picture or a disc, like, slowly, you know, getting information. Jurassic Park.

She's trying to boot up the Unix system or whatever, and it's, like, it's going so slow. It's very suspenseful. I mean, like, yeah. Yeah, I totally relate to that. Remember, like, looking at internet porn in, like, the late 90s? Of course. Trying to, like, close things out and everything was kind of frozen and slow. Harrowing.

Our sophomore year. So, in college, I went to college starting in 1998, which was just at the forefront of things like Napster and high-speed internet and whatever. and all of the on-campus townhouses, the dorms you had to go to the first four computer lab if you wanted to be on a computer. But then I think between freshman and sophomore year, all the dorms and then all the on-campus townhouses got wired for high-speed internet.

But obviously wireless didn't exist at the time, so you had to plug it in to the Ethernet port or whatever. And I was in a sort of like, It was technically an on-campus apartment, but it was not part of the favored townhouses. So, like, we had to arrange for things like our own telephone and our own utilities and whatnot. And so we had dial-up internet in this college apartment with four guys. And I have so many goddamn – I had – I just don't have any of this anymore. So many goddamn partially downloaded songs from, like, Napster and LimeWire and all the fucking thing.

Because any time... Giving yourself, giving your computer cancer so you can have bye, bye, bye, bye. Yeah, except it's bye-bye, because, like, by the third buy, somebody had, like, kicked us off of the Internet, so the download had stopped. But, yeah, slow technology of the 90s, the, of the many things that Gen Z will never understand, besides. human intimacy and a future is slow technology. I was going to say that we probably sound extremely old. And so instead of reflecting on

computer labs, I will just say that I never used a fax machine because we had a scanner when I was in high school. So I never had to fax anything. I did for a couple of my early jobs. I had to fax things to places. But we never had like a fax machine at home or anything like that. What an odd. Fax machines and Laserdiscs,

I feel like, are like, occupy the same sort of cultural space of just, like, a very brief time where they were, like, a thing. Fax machines were more important. But Laserdiscs, they still have a following,

if only because there are so many random titles that only exist on Laserdisc. Sure, sure, sure. People, you know, have their little collections. Yeah. If fax machines had hung around longer, they would have evolved

to a place where, like, you would have been able to watch streaming video on them. And, like, at some point, like, Xerox would be, like, making streaming television at this point. It was, like, the new Xerox show. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

No, I don't watch that show. It's on Xerox Plus, and I don't pay for it. I don't pay for Xerox Plus. Lewis, you brought us a game, and I'm interested to play. I thought it would be maybe hard, but then after talking to you both, I don't think that it will be. My game was Name the Stephen King adaptation Where I get a title

And you have to name the movie Based on that title Oh, okay So it's the ones where the novel or story title Aren't the same as what the movie was called Correct Oh, I love this I started off really easy

I like easy I like games that I can win I don't know who wants to go first Also like should I be keeping score I can keep score while you do this This is fine Okay, okay Okay, so...

Chris, you go first and I'll keep score. Yeah, and if I get it wrong, then Joe gets to... I can steal. Okay. Okay. The first one is the body. That's stand by me. Correct.

Correct. The second one, secret window, secret garden. Oh, it's one of the two. It's a half of it. It's secret window. Yes. Which I saw in theaters. It's a terrible movie.

Yeah. but okay that was the those were the easy ones to start okay um uh weeds uh weeds is I have hands also if you if you need hands uh I'm gonna pass and turn it over to I'm gonna need a hint because I have no idea if I give you a hand it's gonna reset to Chris yeah that's fine it's only fair yeah um it's I will say that it is uh some of

these are anthologies that contain adaptations of these stories. Right. Does that help at all? Oh, so like the film would be an anthology? Yes. Oh, is it Creep show? Yes.

Very good. Okay. Trucks. What'd you say? Trucks? Trucks is that maximum overdrive. It is. I would also accept the movie Trucks. Oh.

The TV movie adapted from trucks, which is like really why. and it has someone getting killed with a um like one of those little remote control cars get out of here hitting them in the head over and over again um it's like it's somehow like better but much worse than maximum overdrive okay um a movie directed by cocaine okay yes um uh cycle of the werewolf who's question that's yours oh that's my question um um um what was this oh god um because i I remember, like, the illustrations from Cycle the Werewolf, and it's changed to, the title is something super generic. Pass.

It's Silver Bullet, right? Yes. Silver Bullet. All right. I pull into the lead. Okay. A little bit of a trick question. I'll say now.

Low men in yellow coats. Oh. This is Hearts in Atlantic. yes yes okay the the story from the book hartin atlantis right yes which is a different story not related to the movie is that true wow that's funny uh okay these are like the really tricky ones and then i'll let you both go and see who wins but um the raft I'm trying I don't know

I don't know either you're going to have to throw it down It's another anthology Are these all films or some of these television? All films It's another anthology It can't be skeleton crew Because I also thought that that book was called skeleton crew

and the movie is called the Skelton Crew. It's... Is there a Skeleton Crew movie? There's Graveyard Shift. There's books based on parts of Skeleton Crew, yeah. What is, like, water-based? Yeah, I still have to turn it over to Joe. This wouldn't make any sense, but it's not the Twilight Zone movie, right?

It's not. But that's not a bad guess. Um, it is a 1987 movie Okay, so Anthology from 87. The year I was born. Oh,

it's, fuck, I'm gonna, once you say it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna know. I don't have it, so if you get it before I do,

you can jump in. Because it's, it's not creep show, but it's like, um, the movie sort of a cast. You're so, you were so close, Joe.

Really? Is it like Creep Show 2? It is Creep Show 2. Get out of here. All right. Fantastic. All right. I have one more.

Okay. I don't know who it's going to. We'll just throw it out. I've clinched the victory anyway. It's fine. Quitters Inc. Oh, fuck. Oh, shit.

Is this like in an office? This was one of his later short stories. relatively right is it uh what is it 1409 1408 1408 1408 is based on 1408 yeah okay it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not a later it's not oh okay the the movie came out in 85 oh well then definitely not quitter's ink is it also creep show it's not but you did say the title before cat's eye it is Oh, there we go. Okay, Cat's Live. Very good. I had harder ones, but I know that no one saw the movie Mercy, the 2014 film Mercy,

except me when I was doing that ranking. It's based on the short story, Grandma. I don't recommend it. Okay. That's a good game. That was a fun game. Thank you, Lewis. There aren't actually as many adaptations of the different titles as I thought. I was like, oh, there's going to be so many to choose from. A lot of them went to television. I will say at some point, a lot of them went to television. But mostly with the same title. That's true. is true. Your children of the corns even, which was a feature.

So many children of the children's of the corn. How many of those movies were made do we figure? Four and five. Oh, you mean the sequels? No, like eight. Yeah. Well, yes, there are like, yeah, they're like eight of them. But there are three Children of the Corn, like, there's two remakes of, at least two,

remakes of Children of the Corn. One came out like this year. But it was like a movie that had been sitting around for many years. And then there was the sci-fi remake, which is not available anywhere anymore, but I just remember it because there's this scene where they're having sex, and it's like Vietnam flashbacks, and it's a very, it's a lot of choices being made. So it's like Munich, the sex scene in Munich. Oh, God, not the sex scene in Munich. It's, yeah, I think it's definitely movie people would compare to Munich. Absolutely. This isn't so much a game, but it is maybe a

a poll I need each of you to, and give this some thought, decide what is the best Judy Parfit line delivery in this film? And like there's a lot of contenders and maybe not always the like

most obvious ones. I have mine. Might need you to make a super cut of every time she says the word bitch in this movie. That is true. Wait, so Lewis, you already have yours. Yeah, mine is husbands die every day, Dolores. Yeah, that's a really, Because she just, like, she's also, like, you idiot, like, how do you not realize that we have this option of killing our husbands?

Well, and it's also her, like, revealing after all these years. Sure, yeah, yeah. No, the whole scene is incredible. Chris, what is yours? I mean, I would say the one that ends up being the tagline on the poster, which I hope that she was paid, you know, some type of marketing honorarium or something for it. Because it's just so, like, savoring every syllable also with the intention of, like, Dolores. let me convince you to do... Well, give us the line.

I want to hear your delivery of it. Well, what's the exact wording? An accident, sometimes an accident can be a woman's best friend. An accident, Dolores, can be an unhappy woman's best friend. Her delivery of that is tremendous. That's probably mine.

Yes. On Letterbox, I pointed out, I think in my entire review is that I think it's unfair that, like, they repeat half of her best quote. I mean, we can argue over which is the best quote. But that you like, but that sometimes you have to be a high-writing bitch to survive is actually like maybe more important to the ethos of Dolores

Claiborne. Yes, 100%. And not the part that Dolores latches on to. I also will say for runners up, I would throw, don't you just love the Bossa Nova? A fantastic line. I found them in New York and I simply had to have them. I love that. She's so happy about the non-independence Day eclipse party. Also, it could have been close enough. It was probably like, Fourth of the July vibes. Also, not a happy line, but when she goes, has he fucked her? It's, I mean. It's quite good.

She's so tremendously good in this movie. I love her. She's had to have been a theater actress, right? Like her, everything about her sort of screened theater. I did look her up while I was watching this, and I now don't remember anything I learned. So I'm being extremely unhelpful. I learned that, I believe she's still. work.

Oh, she's, she's trained at Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, so, uh, okay, she hasn't actually done anything for like 10 years, but, um, or she was on, she's on, um, uh, call the midwife. Oh, yes, I think that's right. I think, yes, I don't watch that show even though I hear wonderful things about it, but, uh, this is also, Dolores Clayburn's a movie that I saw, you know, 15 years ago and didn't quite get that a lot of the actors were playing older because there are, uh, there's makeup to make them look older.

Uh-huh. So like, this is one of the things about Kathy Bates's performance is like we talk all the time about like or like, you know, in like triter conversations, especially in relationship to awards. It's like people who like have to play various ages, like get so much credit for doing that. But Kathy Bates in this movie, ages is so like minutely that you do believe that she is this 65 year old woman by the end of it. And it's like she does. Does it, she successfully does it in a way that actually is impressive, whereas, like, I don't know, Eddie Redmayne and what the fuck is, you know, pat it on the back for, you know, wearing some old age makeup. She plays Sister Monica Joan on Call the Midwife, I should say, so Tara Ariano doesn't yell at me. I'm sorry that I said, I thought she was still working, and she is. She's in that show. She also, I didn't realize this, was BAFTA nominated for supporting actress for a girl with a pearl earring, a movie I think Chris and I both. Both have recently said we remember nothing about, so shame on us for not remembering

Judy Parfit from that. But yeah, she's rather trained, so I can't fuck with that. Can we talk about Ellen Muth? Yes. Oh, she's, did you want, were you a dead like me person? I was. Okay, talk to us about Ellen Muth. I love Ellen Muth.

I mean, I think that like, and she, I was like looking at, you know, awards that DeLore Claiborne got, and I saw that she won supporting actress at the Tokyo International Film Festival. Get out of here. Fantastic. For Dolores Claiborne. She's young Selena. She's, um, it's hard watching her scenes because, like, it really

is like that. The scene where you find out that she's been, uh, abused is really, really, it's tough to watch, but she plays it very well. Also, she's very good. It's just, it's very, very upsetting. And I, I think after watching this and, and Gerald's game, they both cast very young actors to play these I mean they cast age appropriate actors to play these roles yeah yeah um and they both have scenes that are like go a little bit farther than I feel like they need to in depicting sexual assault of a child um it you don't really see anything it's just like

it's more than I it's still more than I feel like you need at that point as we yeah discussed um for something that we already as an audience believe happened right it's it's really disturbing but um she is really great and I I was trying to figure out like where Ellen youth has been because she did the movie for she did like the dead like me movie they that the tv it was showtime when was that yeah it was showtime yeah several years ago she's she's apparently retired dead like twitter dead like me dead like me was a show on showtime before showtime became a channel i needed to have so like i think it was around the same time as queer as folk which is why i uh there there's a lot of queer as

the US version that I never saw and I never Dead like me is what, it's Mandy Patinkin it's Jasmine Guy Jasmine Guy, it was Rebecca Gayhart but she has a very early exit for like reasons that we don't talk about Is that what she was like

I think it was her troubled period Beep beep crash crash Frum I think it was well it was there was definitely that whole period and she has the burn No she also has the burn Maybe we'll talk off Mike about this talking off Mike about Reck of Gay Heart's past. Okay.

But she was on Dead Like Me. And then who did they replace her with? Did they replace her with anybody? Someone whose name I can't remember. And there was that hot guy on it. Yeah, there was a hot guy. That's what I'm trying to remember. Is that his name?

Is that just like a, like, is that just me? Callum Blue, who was on. Okay, great. Oh, he was on another show that I watched. It didn't feel like a porn site I was making up. Callum Blue, yes. I was going to say it is either 2020's

Twink Pop Star or gay porn. We all watched our share of Cal and Blue videos back in the day. Anyway, Ellen Youth is great. It's basically the point there. Related. He was on that WB show related that only I ever watched, which

was Jennifer Esposito, Lizzie Kaplan, Kaley Sanchez, all playing sisters. And Tom Irwin from my so-called life was their dad. and he was dating Christine Eversal as a widower he was dating. Looking at the cast of shows in like the 90s and early 2000s, it's such a journey. It's like,

because they just don't exist anymore. They have no cultural footprint. Yeah. And no one remember, like they don't, they can't find them anywhere. And the cast are like the greatest fucking cast you can imagine. Yep.

It lasted one season and the theme song was by the Veronica's and I loved it very much is all I will say about related. Anything else to say about Dolores Claiborne before we, move it on along. Let me just check my notes. I know. That's what I'm going to do right now as well. Scarcely L Diet Doctor, Grand Hypoobov upper butt crack,

marble rolling pin. Did I confuse this with Martina McBride? Yes, I did. I did point out that Bob Gunton being in this makes it feel like those Stephen King repertory players. Because he had just been in Shoshank Redemption the year before. Right, to have him and Kathy Bates. And I do think, I mean, I do think, like I said, a Stephen King's Zomatic universe ahead of its time, but could have been a terrible thing we contended with in the 90s.

Yeah. But we did not get that far. Oh, Lewis, you mentioned lines. To close the earliest loop, though, Bob Gunton's, the Mrs. Lovett to Bob Gunton's Sweeney was Beth Fowler. Oh. From who was on Orange's the New Black? Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Lewis, you mentioned earlier lines in the movie that, like, you can almost picture on the page in the book. Like, they're so Stephen King. The one that I wrote down was where she's, Dolores is, yeah, sassing back at Christopher Plummer. And he had said, oh, I'm sorry. And she says, I bet the last time you were sorry was when you had to use the pay toilet and the string on your pet dime broke.

Which, like, try explaining that sentence to anybody. younger than 50? Like, I don't even, like, between pay toilets and pet dimes and, and I don't know, that's a Stephen King sentence right there. That's a very Stephen King sentence. Totally. I also made note of the fact that the 1990 best actress lineup, which Kathy Bates won, where she beat out Julia Roberts and Pretty Woman,

Angelica Houston and the Grifters, Joanne Woodward and Mr. and Mrs. Bridge, and Meryl Streep in Postcards from the Edge. All five of those women now are all Oscar winners. It's only one of four lineups since then, like only three Best Actress lineups since then, are also five Oscar winners, which is an interesting little statlet.

2001, which is Hallie Berry, Sissy Spacic, Renee Zell Weger, Nicole Kidman, and Judy Dench, 2006, which is Helen Mirren, Penelope Cruz, Merrill Streep, Kate Winslet, and Judy Dench, and then 08, which is the wildest one, which is Winslet, Angelina Jolie, Melissa Leo, Anne Hathaway, and Merrill Street. So anyway, I thought that was interesting. Nerd shit, nerd shit. That is fun.

Thank you. All right. Should we play the IMDB? game. Chris. I'm terrified at this game. Now you'll be good. Chris,

read us the rules. All right, so every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for.

If any of those titles are television, voice only performances or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. I finally had this pulled up when it was my time to read it.

rather than stalling and filling time. You nailed that. That was so well done. It was very good. All right, Lewis, as our guest, you get the option of giving your clue first, guessing first, and then setting the order of the round robin, which direction we go. I think I want to guess first because I'm terrified of how it's going to go. Okay.

Who would you like to guess from? Myself or Chris? I'm just trying to get to me like nicer to do. me in terms of I will say I pulled up easier ones. Okay, I'll go with Chris. All right. So Chris will give to Lewis. Lewis will give to me and I

will get to Chris. All right. So, Miss Catherine Bates is a four-time Oscar nominee on her third nomination for About Schmidt. She lost to none other than the high priestess of the Casa Zeta Jones,

Miss Catherine Zeta Jones. The other Catherine, who perhaps was, or, well, Kathy Bates was confused when Sean Connery just said Catherine. But for you, I've chosen Catherine Ced the Jones. Great. Okay. And they're all movies and performances.

They're all movies, no voice performances. Well, Chicago. Chicago, correct. Mask of Zorro? Correct. Mask of Zorro? Nice, guess. And then there's this thing when I think of, like, an actor that I totally forget everything they've ever been in, which is why this game is so scary.

I'm trying to remember the movie she was in with Sean Connery. Is it entrapment? Is that the movie? Entrapment. Is that one of them? That is one of them. The character's name is gin. And traffic?

Louis Pieces. Bitesman, a guest with a perfect score. Well done. Okay, that was really, I feel like I'm... That was not easy. That's a, that's a decently challenging. Those were, I mean... It's not the hardest, but like, that's...

Mask of Zoro was not something I would have come up with. Those were the only four movies I could think of that she was in that moment. I could not tell you another. Just totally, like. Fantastic. Well done. Okay, well, I also went a Stephen King Brew, and I was obviously thinking about Shawshank And I don't think you've done Tim Robbins.

Here's what's very funny, Lewis, is Tim Robbins was also the one that I had picked out to give to Chris. So it's in front of me right now, unfortunately. I have a backup. I didn't see Sissy Spacec on your list. I don't think if we've done Sissy Spacey, it hasn't been for forever. Okay. Well, sticking with the Stephen King being my backup with Sissy Spac. Okay.

I'm going to say Carrie is probably one of them Yes I'm going to say Coal Miner's daughter is probably one of them Yes Now it's going to be

like weird shit Now it's going to be I feel like the help shows up on a lot of people So I'm going to say the help Correct Fuck Okay three

Uh oh are we getting Multiple perfect scores Okay Um This is a tough one though Um Because I don't think, I don't think there's any more old ones. Like, I guess it could be Badlands, but, like, I kind of doubt it.

All I can picture now is her big Southern Bufant in JFK, and I know it's not JFK. In the bedroom. You got all four. Yeah! Oh, boy. Well, now Chris, the pressure is on me. And I have the hardest one. Well, you've been able to ruminate on it for a minute or two because I did.

It's funny that Lewis and I picked the same person. Yes, I went into Shawshank Redemption, and we've never done Tim Robbins before. So, Chris, hit me with Tim Robbins. I can't get it wrong on the first guess. So I have to say Mystic River. Correct, Mystic River. Good. At least I didn't fall flat on my face.

They're all acting credits, correct? they're not right okay okay well here are right here's what i should say he's an actor in all of them one of them is on iMdb as producer interesting but he's in it so um that does no wait sorry i'm sorry i'm totally wrong he's not in it is a producer credit it's a non-acting credit i don't know why i miss that yeah well is it Dead Man Walking? It is Dead Man Walking. Okay, good.

I don't know why my brain was telling me that he was a small role in that movie. He is not. The player. Yes, three for three. Oh, my God. It's come down to this. You're going to murder me. There's no way you're getting this fourth one.

You're going to kill me. We're at 11 out of 11, and there is no earthly way you're going to make it 12. Listeners, cyber bully Joe Reed for this. I didn't know we'd be on a streak like this. It just seemed like an interesting one to me. I mean, in a way, that is a hint. It is. That's true. Do I think you would maybe, the next thing that was on my mind, do I think you think I don't know this?

Or is it really that weird? Because, I mean, I would know something like prediporte, but I wouldn't guess prediporte. The one I want to guess is Jacob's ladder. and I feel like that's sensible to be in a known for. I'm not even looking at the camera to see your face. I'm trying not to give any any either way. I think the cards may have to fall where they fall, and I just have to guess Jacob's ladder.

It's a good guess, but it's not Jacob's ladder. It's an admirable guess. It's probably one I would have guessed myself. Oh, so close to an all-perfect score episode. I know. Once again, listeners, Cyberbullly Joe Reid. Yeah, that's fine. I'll take that.

Bull Durham? No. All right. So two strikes. You get the year. The year is 1986. Okay. So this is, I think this is even before Bull Durham.

Wow. Yeah. Bull Durham, I think, is 88. Okay. So is it like, No, that's Dennis Quaid. Because Interspace is Dennis Quaid, right? Or is it also Tim Robbins?

Is it Interspace? No, Inner Space is Dennis Quaid, and I don't think Tim Robbins is in that. Oh, I think that's Dennis Quaid and Martin Short or something? It is the other guy. It's a very funny. It's a very funny movie, and Martin Short's very good. Meg Ryan is also an image. Well, I guess you're right, because I am not getting there.

He's third build in this. Is it Major League or something? No, he's not in both of those movies. It's kind, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a notorious 80s movie that has, like, resurfaced in the last decade or so because of a major trend in filmmaking today. Like, the major trend. Oh, so this is like IP. Yeah. Interestingly enough, yes, it is.

You wouldn't have thought of back in the day, because it, it's, it seems like such a one-off odd idea, but, um, yes oh so it like became a franchise no it's been sort of revived oddly in in the in has been wrapped up in the major cultural trend in films of today what is the major cultural trend in movies franchises and superheroes but specifically superheroes but specifically what kinds of superheroes Marvel yeah Oh, so this is, oh, what was the 80s Marvel movie? You would never have thought it back in the day. Like, Marvel wasn't even like a thing.

It's not a superhero. It's, right? Lewis, help me out here. I don't know. I don't know. I haven't seen it. I know. I haven't either.

But, like, I know about it. Is he like a cop? Is it a cop? No. For all I know, he could be playing a cop in this, but I don't think so. He's like, I imagine he's the romantic rival, is my guess? To a Marvel character. Yeah.

Who is not a superhero. No, no. I'm looking it up. I'm looking it up. I'm looking at up. Thank you. He's kind of a scoundrel in a... Is a superhero? Is he?

Okay. Is, this is considered a... superhero film. Sure. Okay. What the fuck? It's a comedy. Like, the movie is a comedy.

It's not like an action-adventure thing. But it is, like, centered around a character who it does not sound like is an iconic character. Right. Sort of defined by his non-iconicness a little bit. So he's some average dude? This character showed up in a Marvel movie about eight or so years ago and a post-credit scene and everybody was like what

and then has since popped up in like a couple more movies in like very small roles like what's the weirdest character from an 80s movie like weirdest title character from an 80s movie like the most stereotypically like how did

that movie ever get greenlit just one of the boys no like real cartoony, like real cartoonie. Now I'm starting to have a feeling I have seen this, but I just can't get there. It would shock me

if you did. It used to be on TV a bunch. Is it like blank man? Like, is man part of the time? Not man, but like... Boy. No. Guy. Different species. Is it Howard the Duck?

It's Howard the Duck is what it is. I hate this. I'm sorry. That was so much fun to lead you down that path, though. I don't remember him being in Howard the Duck. I think all my needs were accurate. He is the star who's not Leah Thompson in Howard of the Duck. But I actually can't get a clear read on whether or not Howard the Duck is a superhero.

I'm looking at the cast list on IMDB for Howard the Duck. And not only is Chip Zine in this movie, but is it Zine or Zine? How do we pronounce? Zion. Zion? Who was the voice of Howard the Duck, which I never realized. And then the, like, person puppeteering Howard the Duck is somebody named Tim Rose, whose IMDB photo is Admiral Akbar, which is, so it really just does give you the impression that

Admiral Akbar is just is. He also puppeteered Salacious B. Crum. Oh, sure. Who's the little little shit in Jabba's palace. He's always laughing at people. Yeah. Howard the Duck. Also starting Holly Robinson Pete. And, and speaking of, never mind, horrible connection. Oh, Jeffrey Jones. I really did not want to make that connection, and then it just came out.

Oh, boy. I have so many regrets. Chris, I'm so sorry we did that to you, but that was very fun to experience. Well, I'm going to be very mean to you. I know. I always get the retribution on the other end of it. It could have gone differently because if I had gone, with Joe, you might have gotten Howard the Duck. Yeah. No, I definitely wouldn't have. I guess it couldn't have gone. Right, because you had already, we would have chosen someone else.

Unless I, yeah, no. Yeah. So you were going to give me with a clear conscience, Howard the Duck. You were going to make me try and guess Howard the Duck. Bitch, you just gave me with a clear conscience, Howard the Duck. And you're giving me no end of shit for it. I don't think that I thought through, because to me, this game is just like inherently difficult because I cannot remember filmographies when I'm on the spot.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. I think I just didn't think about how difficult that way. I would have struggled every bit as you did, Chris. I will say that. All right, Lewis, thank you so much for joining us. We had such a very fun time talking about this movie. Come back soon. You and I need to do, you and I need to bully Clay Keller into letting him,

letting the both of us get on us screen drafts at some point because we talk about it enough. We talk about that show enough. We do talk about screen drafts a lot. Yeah. But just a tremendous time with you. We had such a good time. Where would you like to direct the listeners to places that they can experience more of the Lewis Pitesman phenomenal? Oh, God.

You can follow me on Twitter at Lewis Pitesman. Fantastic. And you should. And letterboxed is the same. Yeah, I'm so glad you're doing letterboxed stuff now. It's my only creative outlet, so it has become. You know, what I do, my little reviews of movies. Well, thank you.

Listeners, that is our episode. If you want more of ThisHad Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this hadoscarbuzz. com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz and our Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz. Lewis has already kindly told us where we can find him. Chris, where can the listeners find more of you? You can find me on Twitter and Letterbox at Chris V-File.

That's F-E-I-L. Yeah, and I'm on Twitter and Letterboxed. at Joe Reed, Reed-spelled REID. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievous for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify,

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but we hope you'll be back next week for more. Burn. Let freedom bring. Let the white does sing. Let the whole world know that today, today of a reckoning, let the weak be strong.