This Had Oscar Buzz - 260 – The Deep Blue Sea

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

A few weeks ago, we lost the great and greatly undervalued filmmaker Terence Davies, who listened have heard our love of on our previous episode for The House of Mirth. In 2011, Davies adapted the play The Deep Blue Sea for the screen, with Rachel Weisz taking the role of a post-WWII married woman devastated by a failed … Continue reading "260 – The Deep Blue Sea"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Millen Hacks and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh What people do in private is best left there I'm neither condoned nor condemn

Father, I came to you for advice You have a husband Your first loyalty is to him I won't consent to a divorce I intend to make it as difficult as possible for you. I never want to see you again. I love you so much. Hello and welcome to the This Head Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast furnishing an entire room in our house just for Kate Winslet.

Every week on This Head Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fy, and I'm here, as always, with my sweet Molly Malone, Joe Reed. Cackles and muscles. Cockles and muscles. What exactly is a cockle? I imagine something like a muscle, some sort of shelled. Some type of shellfish that we could get in, like, a lovely wine sauce.

It's probably British slang for something. Let's see. Cuckle. Cuckle. Gary's get out of us and tell us what a cockle is, and if we can have it with a nice wine sauce. It's a sheld. it looks sort of like a like a clam. I love

shelf. I don't love clams. Like, I'm never going to jump to clams, but I do love shellfish. I guess it most specifically resembles a scallop. So there we go. Oh, love scallis. So imagine Fabio saying, this is not top cockle,

this is top chef. It's my favorite Fabio quote from, this is not top scallop. This is top chef. Oh, Fabio. I know. Joe, we're here with a sad day. Not just because we're talking, obviously, about a very sad movie.

We had planned to do this episode. Anyway. Yeah. Before the news of Terrence Davies's unfortunate, untimely passing. Yeah. I was very, very sad. You were very sad. We found out in, like, in the middle of taking a break, recording our, um...

What would have been the episode that we were recording even, Kill Bill 2, I think. Or maybe it was right after we were done recording. It wasn't because I was doing the post-production, and I was like, oh, I was taking a break. I'm like, I came back and you were like, oh, Terran Stadies died. So, like, we were in the middle of recording. It was very sad, especially because he's always been a filmmaker who I was more aware of than, I still haven't watched all of his big ones, and, like, that'll be a project that I will have embark upon in the next year or so. But I was such a huge fan of benediction. And that one

really like, you know, that one really affected me. It does seem like the movie that unlocked his work for a lot of people, myself included. Yeah. Because I'd seen other films of his before then. But I think people connect to that. I mean, especially gay people connect to it. And like, he's had queer themes and, you know, other films of his, obviously the Long Day Club. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, Fran Hoffner in her, you know, uh, in Fran Mag, talking about his passing, uh, put it in a way that I was very moved by that, you know, she described being at arm's length with his work, but eventually having to realize it was her arm, not his. Sure. Sure. That makes sense. And that's maybe how I had initially felt about house of

Mirth, which I was probably too young for when I saw that in the theater. Sure. But also a quiet passion, which were the works that I had seen before Benediction of his. And I forget if I saw Long Day Closes before or after Benediction, but that's also one that really unlocked what he's doing with his work, too. And Long Day Closes is a much more, like, directly autobiographical work, you know. What is it about? I've never seen it.

But so for anybody listening who doesn't know about it? For anybody listening who has not seen The Long Day Closes, go and immediately watch that movie. You can watch it on Criterion Channel. It's under 90 minutes, so let me sell you that way. It's this very kind of poetic look at his just prepubescent youth. Terrence Davies' father died when he was young, and his father was, I, I guess, you know, not a great guy, right?

Not great. Yeah. And he describes the time between his father's death and puberty, basically as the happiest time of his life. And this is a character that we understand to be a stand-in for Davies on the precipice of that, realizing his love of cinema, growing up in Liverpool, and also the first. the first signs of queer awareness in himself, in a way that, you know, memories kind of flow

in and out of each other in this very cathartic, poetic way that is incredibly moving, that I think, you know, if you were also a young queer person, you know, the scenes that deal with that will have a lot of resonance for you. Well, I thought, too, with, you know, that Benedictian being his... his final movie, and Benedictian having such a sort of forthright, if, you know, complicated view of queerness and gay relationships and whatever. And from my understanding, at least, and again, I am no Terence Davies scholar, that he had a fairly complicated relationship with gay relationships in his own life, that he was

out, of course, but that he never, I don't, I believe he had, he had said that he had never really had a long-term gay relationship. He only ever had really one long-term relationship with anybody, and it was with a woman for a brief time, and he sort of absented himself. A period of intentionate celibacy as well. Absented himself from sort of a sense of community, which is why I thought Benediction is so, feels like even more interesting as a movie that really deals very intricately with queer community at a time when that wouldn't have seemed to have been possible. And I don't know, it just seems like an incredibly interesting person.

I certainly was obviously, you know, aware and appreciative of him before his death, but I definitely feel like he's going to be one of those people who I learn even more about. I'm, you know, looking forward to seeing the long day closes, end of time in the city, which was his documentary about Liverpool. one I have to catch up to, and I'll catch up too soon. We'll be talking about New York film critics, but they gave that, you know, their nonfiction prize, and that's one of the few, like, significant prizes that was ever given to his work, which is, you know, one of the things in recent weeks since his passing that, you know, people have talked about that, you know, it's not just that, you know, he wasn't awarded much during his career, but also not recognized. And it's like, he definitely has the type of point of view and career that it's like you do actually rely on critics and awards bodies to help contextualize and, you know, recognize someone who isn't doing anything in the mainstream. Right.

And I think the movie we'll be talking about today is a great example of one that even though a lot of his films, were adapted from other works or were, you know, in the case of benediction or quiet passion, directly about another writer or another creator, but they remained incredibly personal. Yeah. I think in the way that you described benediction as a, you know, perhaps reflection on, you know, his feelings as an outsider, perhaps a, conscientious one or you know living life intentionally in that way i think a quiet passion is very much the same too that's a movie that i'm especially eager to revisit now but knowing more about his life and his point of view and you know the way that he's been open about this i mean

read any terence davies interview and try to not fall in love with the man um and you know any interview you read with him, you come away with some type of knowledge about who he is. And I think he is so, you know, tried to say hard on his sleeve, but, you know, was very open about his experience and his view of the world and how he infused that into his work and how his work reflected it, even if it wasn't so directly autobiographical as something like long take closes or distant voices to lives. Well, even something like, and we'll get into it with Deep Blue Sea, where it's something, I definitely feel like I connected more to it this time watching it than I did when I initially saw it. I think the first time I saw it, I really respected it. I really was impressed by the performances, but I think this one, I think I, it may be more locked into what Davies is trying to do with the way he's telling the story, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. So. Yeah, yeah.

And, like, even though this is adapted from a play, I'd be fascinated to see how close of an adaptation it is because it feels so distinctly his and, you know, the way that flashback is used, not montage, but, like, you know, the flowing in and out of memory. Yes. You know, it's not a Terrence Davies movie if a room full of people aren't singing a song together. Right. And you get that twice in this movie and Chewings. incredible effect, yeah. And I mean, like, that's half the runtime of distant voices still lives, basically. Just exquisite. And the way that he can rend emotion out of that. But also, I think this movie's a great example of how he uses that to contextualize the people that he's

depicting in terms of whether it's the time that they live, collective communal trauma, because, you know, this is a movie about a woman so devastated by love that she becomes suicidal, basically. But it's also, you know, repositions this story in a way that I bet is his own and is not from the play. That's like, this is a woman who has been through the trauma of it's World War II, right? Because you have the Molly Malone scene where everybody's in the underground. Right, during the Blitz. Yeah. And I just think he does that in a really delicate way.

The movie closes on this, you know, shot of this devastated portion of London, that this London of 1950 is still incredibly sort of pockmarked with the remnants of damage from the Blitz, from World War II, these soldiers who come back. It's an interesting take. We'll talk about it when we talk about Tom Hiddleston. It's an interesting take on a character who is sort of forever changed by the war, but it's not quite the same where it's like, oh, he's haunted by everything as he's seen. He cries in the corner and whatever. It's this guy who was never more alive than when he was risking death as a Royal Air Force pilot. And so can't quite, you know, life back at home can't quite match the the hymn that he was back then. Yeah. It's an interesting take on that, too. And that, I imagine, comes from Radigan's play.

But Davies certainly puts some focus on it. And he's so effective at doing it. I mean, Benedictian is very, you know, everything that we've said about how it talks about queer community in a way that does feel incredibly contemporary. Yes. But he's also. positioning that in a way that it's like you have to think of what is the unique trauma of that gay community that survived World War I and how that also would have interacted with their gayness and you have Siegfried Sassoon incredibly played by Jack Loudon as this central character who's like well it's absolute it's absurd it's offensive to me that I lived in

all of these other people didn't, and how that affects his interaction with queer friendship, but also romantic partners. Well, and his queerness also frees him up to be able to speak about this generation of men

with a more sort of open affection than other poets who may have seen the need to be more reserved. He has such a just a love for some of these men specifically, like some of the ones who he knew and was, you know, quite close with who

went out. And I think him being able to access that part of his emotions, you know, made him a more suitable poet for that generation and for that particular circumstance. Yeah. I could talk about that movie forever. We'll do that movie at some point, and I will just It'll be four hours long. Honestly, honestly. We'll have multiple guests. It'll be great. We will both separately cry. Yeah, seriously. I will try to not get emotional today talking about Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies. Just what a wonderful man. Yeah. Who really made movies that I think are emotional. You call a movie an emotional movie. and I think you have a certain type of expectation, but I think he made emotional movies in a very unique way

where it's like he's expressing how he feels in the world through these movies and, you know, you get a real insight into a person of how they might feel isolated in their emotional experience of the world, how, you know,

expressing the nuance and tantal, of those emotions in a way that I find very profound, but also one-of-a-kind as a filmmaker. You know, you can see Davies's influence in other films, but I don't think anybody makes movies quite the way that he did. Yeah. And like the Long Day closes, which is like you talk about all these movies that are autobiographical, but also about the power of the cinema. And, you know, cinema as memory. And I don't think anybody has made a movie like that that does all of those things. That's as strong and as powerful as that movie.

Yeah. I can't wait to watch it. I will certainly text to hear what you think. I hope I haven't oversold it for you or anyone listening. But what an incredible movie. Yeah. All right. This is also a really great movie, too.

This is maybe... I'm excited to talk. about this movie. This is a very good one. It's interesting because this is one of the ones where I didn't get to see this in theaters, but my perception of the response at the time was like, woof, depressing was what everybody was saying. And, you know, it's about a suicidal woman, but I think, you know, spend a whole day with the suicidal woman. You have to, you have to, you have to, um, yeah, be able to, uh, understand the other. layers of what he's doing here, too, because it's like, this probably is one of his more, you know,

rending movies to watch. Listen. I would say the hardest to watch a sunset song because that movie from the jump is brutal. Yeah. But, you know. People said similar things about the hours, though, about that it's depressing, that it's slow, that it's, you know, whatever, the weeks. And so I'm learning to sort of.

have my guard up about those reactions to such films. We have unique patience. We do. We do. Should I talk about the Patreon? And then we can get into... Yes. Let's take a brief moment to remind our listeners of what else we've got going on.

Yeah. This had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance is what we have going on. It's our $5 a month Patreon bonus episode delivery system. You'll get two bonus episodes per month from Chris and Me. That for the low, low cost of $5 and what kind of episodes will you be getting, you ask? Well, one of those episodes every month will be what we're calling exceptions, which are films that fit the general vibe of a this had Oscar buzz movie, big expectations, fell short of those expectations, but still maybe managed to eke out a couple of Oscar. nominations in the end. So along those lines, we've already had episodes about nine and Pleasantville. Rob Marshall's nine, I should say, not the cartoon future steampunk. I feel like there was a steampunk angle

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We will be happy to welcome you. into the fold. We're having a good time. And at this point, you got a bunch of episodes waiting for you to binge through. That's the thing. Peter out, you know, holidays are coming. You need something to listen to on a long drive or on an evening where your family's driving you crazy. That's true. The holidays are coming. Get ready. We got you. Yeah. Yeah. That long Amtrak back home for Thanksgiving before you have a very pieces of April style weekend. I'm not. not trying to curse any of our listeners, but flight delays... Oh, God.

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All right. All right, Chris, back to the deep blue sea. I've been limbering up getting ready to do a 60-second plot description, which is a deceptively difficult task because it's like, oh, oh, this movie takes place in today. There's a lot of context. I think that's exactly the right word. I think there's a lot of railroad track that has to be laid down talking about this movie. But we'll see how I do. You spend more time building the foundation of the house than the house itself. Well, it's better than the other way around. Because...

Let's get into it, though, so we can get into the movie. We can get more into Terrence Davies' work. we can get into Rachel Weiss's performance. Yes. Listeners, we are here talking about the Deep Blue Sea, written and directed by the one and only Terrence Davies based on the Terrence Radigan play, starring the one and only Rachel Weiss, Tom Hiddleston, Simon Russell Beale,

Harry Haddon Patton, and Anne Mitchell. The movie had a world premiere at TIF 2011, opened in the UK that fall but didn't open in the U.S., until March 15th, 2012, Mr. Joseph Reed. Yes. Are you ready with a 60-second plot description? Yes, I am. All right, then your 60-second plot description of the Deep Blue Sea starts now.

Rachel Vices Hester, a London woman in 1950, who was married to the good but dispassionate high-court judge, Sir William, played by Simon Russell Beale, only she left him to be with the gorgeous young Royal Air Force pilot, Freddie, played by Tom Hiddleston, and Tom Hiddleston's incredible smile, and Tom Hiddleston's stunning exposed to him. Freddie left the best of himself back in the war, though, and within several months of their whirlwind romance, Hester becomes all too aware that while her marriage sister William left her devoid of passion, her relationship with Freddie, leaves her all too often neglected, not to mention financially insecure. Here's where I should mention that the whole movie takes place on the day that Hester's decided to kill herself, a task at which she fails, but which provides the jumping off point for all these gorgeously filmed flashbacks. Freddie finds out about the suicide attempt and absolutely flips his lid in no small part to Hester's suicide note, in which she essentially says, seriously, don't think that I killed myself just because you forgot my birth. day, which makes him think she definitely tried to kill herself because he forgot her birthday and he's furious at her. By the end of this sad gray London day, Freddie tells Hester that he's accepted a job as a test pilot in Brazil and he's leaving her.

They spend one last night together and then he leaves, and while you think he's just going to, you think she's just going to get right back to the business of gassing herself to death, Hester instead lights a fire and stares out her window into whatever is coming next to the end. Eight seconds over. Baba! All right. That's good for me.

That's good for me. Did I leave anything out? I guess I suppose the landlady at Freddy's apartment who is caring for her ailing husband who is so awesome in her like short scenes. The scene in the underground is such a, like, midpoint showcase. Yes. That, you know, how do you incorporate that in? Exactly.

I don't really know how you incorporate the, you know, flashbacks or memory. into the plot, but, like, they are so significant to the experience of watching this movie. Before we talk about the plot, can we talk about the way this movie is filmed in, and the sort of, I guess it's exposure. By that, you mean gorgeously? Well, yes, gorgeously, but, like, that I think it's set to a, I don't know cameras. I wish I did, guys, like, honestly. But you know what I mean? Where, like, it's a little overexposed, maybe, or something where things feel, everything feels like, everything feels like.

It's in this sort of haze of, and I imagine it's, you know, this sort of gassy, you know what I mean, gassy hazey. The movie was shot by Florian Hofmeister, who was just nominated last year for Tar. There we go. But I don't know. You are maybe smarter than me about that, but how would you categorize? It's sort of misty. Like, things sort of look a little misty always and a little... The aesthetics of this movie are the type of thing.

that somebody too eager to maybe not get this movie would roll their eyes at that is actually incredibly effective to be slipperiness of this movie's relationship to the past and the present. It sometimes looks like you're looking at this movie through a sort of shallow pool, shallow tide pool or something like that, that you're sort of looking into the memories. of it, right? And even the stuff that takes place in, like, the current day, this day that she tried to kill herself. It all feels, I think you're right, slippery and sort of, it's not dreamlike. It's not that. But it's like, like life through a veil a little bit. You know what I mean? Like a fog. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a little bit. I think it's beautiful. I think it's beautifully

filmed. And a really wonderful showcase for these three, especially, I think all those side characters, Harry Hunt Patton and Anne Mitchell and whatnot are all very good, but I think these three central performances of Rachel Weiss, Tom Hiddleston, Simon Russell Beale are so incredible. I was really struck on this rewatch by how much I actually love Simon Russell Beale's performance in this movie. This is probably... Him and Benediction, too, because he's in that and he has like two scenes where he's spectacular and it's like you'll want one more scene with the guy, but loves...

People, I think most, he's, you know, also, I believe, a theater actor, but... He's a major theater actor is the thing. He's like... Yes, and I think as far as film goes, the most praise he's gotten is for Death of Stalin, a movie that I think is... Tremendous in. Fine, but, like, he does get a real showcase of that movie. I love that movie, and I think he's tremendous. He's great, yeah.

The thing about Simon Russell Beale, this was definitely the first movie I sort of noticed him in, and I was like, oh, I wonder how many movies I sort of ignored him in. And he hadn't made very many movies before this. He was really very much a theater actor. He was very, he worked a lot with Sam Mendez when Sam Mendez was very major in London theater. He's essentially always doing something at the National Theater. He got a Tony Award recently for, was it the Lehman Trilogy? or was it

was the Lehman Trilogy, right? Um, I for anything COVID era or like just before, just after with Tony's is a soup to me. Yeah,

let's see, hold on. Tony Awards, yes, he won in 2022, best actor in a play for the Lehman trilogy, so there is that.

Great actor. Also an openly gay actor. Openly gay, we love. But yeah, so the D. Blue Sea, 2011 is when he sort of starts appearing in movies. He had been in Orlando. He had been in the Kenneth Branagh Hamlet. And then he hadn't really done major movies for a very long time. And then the Deep Blue Sea and My Week with Maryland in the same year. He's the Baker's father in Into the Woods, which I totally did not make note of when I saw Into the Woods. He's in another Rachel Weiss movie. in 2017, my cousin Rachel,

the one that was directed by Roger Michelle, one of the sort of last Roger Michelle movies. That was the same year he did the death of Stalin. That all actually, though,

happens after he does a couple seasons on Penny Dreadful. Did you ever watch Penny Dreadful? I know I've asked you this before. I didn't, but I want to catch up to it. He's Mr. Lyle in Penny Dreadful. He's great. He's so good.

He has since been in Mary Queen of Scots and Operation Finale and of course, Benediction. I loved, loved, loved him last year in the outfit, which was the Mark Rylent's movie where... Oh, yeah, he's great in that.

He's the bad guy. He's the Chicago gangster in this... And the second he steps on screen, and I did not know he was going to be in this movie, he sort of like steps through the door in this very, like, auspicious entrance. and I almost like hooted and hollered out loud because I was so, so, so happy that he was there.

I genuinely love this guy. This year, 2023, he is in a movie, has this come out yet? It was a Cannes, Firebrand. This was, oh, this was the movie about... No, it doesn't have U.S. distribution. This was the movie about Catherine Parr, this played at Cannes.

This was Alicia Vekander, Jude Law, Jude Law is Henry VIII. I'm so... I know it did not... I don't think it got very good reviews. It did not. Everybody said it was pretty boring, but when they described Jude Law in this movie, how he's like... How am I not going to see this?

How am I not? Yeah. How am I not? You know what I mean? So, I'm kind of excited for that one. Okay, so, but yeah, so leave it to me to lead with Simon Russell Biel, but I just had to say, because I genuinely do adore that man and... He's wonderful in this movie. Yes.

Apparently he's going to be in House of the Dragon, season two. Okay, I'm into that. I got to watch that show anyway. I won't be watching him in that, but, you know. I've got to watch it anyway, so good for me. More for me. That's great. How did you feel about Hiddleston in this?

Well, we'll lead up to Rachel Weiss. We'll sort of walk up the ladder. Okay, so we've talked about Hittleston. Maybe, I mean, the most we talked about Hittleston is way, way back in the podcast, the early episodes when we had Eric Command on. It's only our second Hittleston episode, yeah. I saw the light. Yep.

He's really not someone who, has ever registered for me in the way that he registers for other people but you know when this movie debuted it's obviously his big year and I've forgotten how much he was in at once It's an insane year 2011 for Tom Huddleston. But the thing about Hiddleston, with the exception of

Night Manager, is his career has been so consumed by Marvel there hasn't been many other things that he's been in where he's not playing local so that's probably why, but I do think he's very good in this. He's in less of the movie than you think he'll be.

2011, that is true, but like you look at his 2011, and if we count this as like a 2011 debut at least, if you were at the festivals or you lived in England, it's the deep blue sea, it's Warhorse, which I think he's tremendous in, and there is a shot of him that, to me, unlocks the whole movie, and it's just his face, but like, it really is. is a breathtaking face when you look at that shot of him in Warhorse. That was the one, were we talking about this?

Was I listening to this on another podcast where, I think I was listening to it on another podcast or somewhere, where they talked about... It's very possible that we've had whatever conversation you're about to launch us into because you love War Horse, you defend War Horse. Yeah, but this is something I learned recently where that Spielberg in directing Hiddleston for that scene, where essentially it's their riding into battle, and it's... it's a tight, sort of like it moves in right on his face as he's, and it was something to the effect of Spielberg telling him, oh shit, I'm going to get it wrong, so I don't want to that, but essentially Spielberg directing him to essentially just like, when the shot begins, you're this age, and when the shot ends, you're a different, you've, you've aged, like, significantly, something like that. Oh, my God, I'm going to get it wrong. I'm so mad. but it's it's a it really like it pinpoints how important that shot is to the rest of that movie

um he's also in midnight in paris this year a movie that i don't like but i love him in it he plays scott fitzgerald i think he's great and then i literally purely by accident chris uh thor was on television the first thor was on television yesterday and so i watched it it's it's of the of You know, I'm a Marvel fan, but, like, of the Marvel movies, it's never really one I really revisit, partially because Thor's beard. You don't like the Thor movies. I like the Thor movies, actually. I don't like the Tycho Waititi movies. So, it's that.

But, like, the first two, like, Thor is a character I really like. Thor, the Dark World, I really defend. But the thing about watching the first one is I was, I was really reminded how much I walked out of that movie and was, like, Tom Hiddleston's a fucking star. Like, he genuinely pops off through that movie so, so well. And the very next year, they make him the main villain of the Avengers, which is, like, the biggest movie, you know, at that point. And it was sort of off to the races. But, like, he does, for, I take your point in that, like, his career has been sort of swallowed up by Loki.

That's not not true. But he does manage to do movies like Only Lovers Left Alive and Crimson Peak. Love that movie. Love that movie. He's not what I'm walking away from that movie talking about, though. Only Lovers Left Alive? Personally. I'm talking about him and Tilda.

It's not like I'm not talking, you know what I mean? It's like, it's not like I'm only talking about Tilda. Listen, Hiddleston definitely put himself out there as an actor who will get naked for a movie. It works for him. You mentioned his hips in this movie. That shot of the two of them from above where it's just like they're not exposed, but you see every, like, non-verb, Botan part of their body. And it's just like side butt and side boobs and hips and legs. And it's so sexy. Exquisite. Terrence Davies for a man who I'm not sure if there's other sex scenes in his

other work. There's, there might be nudity in Neon Bible, if I remember correctly. I've only seen that movie once. But like, and for his own complicated, you know, relationship with sex that he's talked about. Yeah. The man can shoot a sex scene. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're right to mention the Knight Manager, which was a great mini-series. I don't know where it would be available, if it's available, but he's great. Hugh Lorry is great.

Olivia Coleman is great. Tom Hollander fucking rules. He's such a bitch in that movie. Elizabeth Debicki is great. It's a John La Curey adaptation. And I will say for as much as I think the cooling of Marvel over the last few years has a been justified and warranted. I think the projects have seen a general, if not outright downturn, like a loss of a center over the last few years in a way that has been very noticeable. I will say

that Loki, the show, has thus far been an exception to that. I think Loki sort of stands on its own very well, surprisingly enough. And good for him, I think he is a big part. that reason. He was also in a mini-series last year that I didn't see, but I wonder, I don't think you did either, but I called the Essex serpent with him and Claire

Daines. Do you remember hearing about this? I did not. It was an Apple TV Plus, which is probably why. But I did remember hearing some people talking about it and saying that it was good. It's him, Claire Dane's, Frank Delaine, Klamas, Posey.

It's an interesting cast. I will Probably not catch up to it. Freed from Christopher Nolan's tenant where her sole job is to explain. She is basically Jeremy Strong in Serenity. She might as well have been named the rules. Yeah. But she's also the one who's just like, don't worry about it. It's fine.

No, she's literally like, don't think about it. Feel it. And it's like, okay. That's good advice, Clamaz. Got it, Nolan. Thank you. All right, everybody. Put down that Tom Hiddleston, you have.

in your hand i don't know what would somebody what would somebody have to uh of the many time stop grabbing his side thigh his beautiful side thigh absolutely is everybody put your tom hitleston side thighs down knives this is knives down utensils down uh uh knives are out i don't know okay okay anyway padma padma in front of all of the chefs today your challenge is you have have to cook Tom Hiddleston, three ways. You will have full access to our pantry provided by the Glad family of products. All right, anyway, we are taking a break to talk about the Vulture Movie Fantasy League, which is ramping up. As you are listening to this, we are either on the eve of Gotham Award nominations or they've just happened,

depending on when in your week you settle down to this podcast. but we'll have some sweet, sweet awards points. I kind of have no way of guessing what the Gothams will go for, but, like, I imagine past lives is going to do quite well, right? Like, I feel like the, like, in terms of the indie awards this year, I feel like that's a pretty big one. Being that it is somewhat the East Coast contingent of independent film, typically. Yeah.

A-24 stands to do decently. well as they often do there. You think the East Coast bias has an A-24 bias, whereas the West Coast indie bias is more towards... They are a New York City company. They are a New York City company. This is true. Anyway, it's a fool's errand. Not that they don't do well at the

Independent Spirit Awards, but... Right. Anyway, regardless, I'll be interested to see what they go for, especially because the two big-time awards contenders at the moment, well, the three of them actually, are all studio stuff, right? Killers of the Flower Moon and Oppenheim

and Barbie. So the... Also, as you're listening, you're probably... Anybody who drafted Killers of the Flower Moon is racking in their Killers at the Flower Moon dollars, and yet they're not getting those number one... Well, so this is what I wanted to talk about, Chris,

because you sort of... You gave me my inspiration for my newsletter topic last week when you talked about... When you mentioned your prediction that the ERA's tour would end up being the highest grossing movie from now through the end of the year. And I was like, huh,

I hadn't really thought of it that way. I am famously bad at this, at this, at box office stuff. I feel like you have a better sense of, I think you have to keep closer tabs on the way movies are tracking. And you always, I feel like in our chats, you're always one who's just like, well, such and such is going to make such and such because that's how it's tracking. And I'm like, I didn't read that. I do pay attention to tracking. Tracking is not an infallible, especially in recent years, is that. not an infallible resource. However, it's a good general guide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think

that Taylor Swift has a good shot at achieving that. Well, particularly because a lot of the big sort of tent pole style movies that are waiting between now and the end of the year are dealing with sort of trends that are going in the wrong direction for what they be they superhero movies or animated movies. A lot of unknowable, like, unknowable X-Factors, which I think is like Wonka has like $8 billion unknowable X-Factors, as does something like Five Nights at Freddy's, which before talking to you, I had no idea that that was like...

Tracking to be like a $50 million over. Right. And then you have something like The Hunger Games, which is like, we have no idea how The Hunger Games is going to perform without Jennifer Lawrence. we've never seen that before. So, like, I want to go through it sort of, like, step by step, but I want, you, we sort of entered this with Killers of the Flower Moon.

What do you think awaits for this movie, box office-wise? Because it is a long movie, and long movies tend to have that, like, cap on how much money they can make anyway. And, like, because they have fewer showtimes during the day. And in this sort of post-pandemic world, I'm always nervous for, like, anuteur director's first post-pandemic movie where, like, we could find out that, like, people have just, like, decided to stop seeing a certain kind of movie after the pandemic. You know what I mean? Sure, sure, sure.

Well, it is worth noting that Martin Scorsese's highest grossing movie still remains at The Departed at something, like, I think, $132 million. Right, that and Shutter Island are sort of, like, the two tip-to-neck. I think Shutter Island is, like, 128. Something like that. Killers of the Flower Moon, I don't think that it's opening box. office weekend is going to tell its full life, especially, I think, with the length of that movie and the, you know, what the rest of the season looks like, the intense love for that

movie. And I think probably still a lot of discussion points that are going to be happening about that movie, now that people have seen it. I worry about that. That movie has legs, I think. I've been seeing troubling signs that there is discourse waiting for this movie, and I don't love that. I think the movie answers the discourse, so I think there is more so interesting discussion to be had about movies, how things are told, I think, I don't think it's to this movie's detriment, but there is conversation to be had, and I don't think that this is a movie that just, you know, sits there on the screen and is great. I think this is a movie that will get people talking. After two weeks of watching social media digest the situation in Israel and Palestine,

are you really confident that people are up to handling the finer nuances of what Martin Scorsese is doing in Kratos of the Flower Moon? Are you willing to advance that? I am overly optimistic. Maybe I am less and less online anymore. Good for you. Yes. I don't know.

I think that this is a movie that people will continue to talk. about for a while, and I think this movie has potential legs. As far as I hope so. I don't think that the end of its life is its first week. The pessimist in me has a voice in the back of my head saying there is no such thing as legs at the box office anymore, that theatrical windows have gotten

shorter and shorter, that nothing, that the Oscars matter, things like awards and Oscars matter less for box office, and I worry that like after four weeks of like performing okay, that they're just going to be like, well, you'll be on streaming next week, and we'll try and recoup that way. And I would also add that four of the five top grossing Scorsese movies are all Leonardo DiCaprio movies. Okay. That's a good data point.

I like that. All right. I think especially this is a movie. We talk about older audiences that are just like not going to the movies anymore, but I do think that this will get that audience out of the house and go see the movie. Sure. But you do not exactly. You're going to necessarily go. Right.

You're very much as am I expecting Taylor Swift to take top space at the box office once again. That's, at least as of recording on Friday night, right now, this conversation we are having, she is looking to definitely take the... It does not surprise me. So talk to me about Five Nights of Freddy's. I think I was not aware of. I don't know video games from shit. So like...

I'm not super aware of it either. I think it's less video game, more online game that has a super cult following. I make no difference or distinction. $50 million for opening week. Yeah, which is like kind of amazing. Even though I also, I was talking to, maybe it might have been you about this at TIF. I just remember like ascending the escalator being like, five nights at Freddy's. That trailer looks weird.

I'm into the idea of like a haunted Chucky Cheese. And then whether it was you or whoever I was talking to, it was just like, yeah, but the creator of that like is a hardcore Trump supporter or whatever. And it's like, God damn it. So. But I guess. the movie doesn't have anything to do with this person. And I don't know whether like the concept of a haunted Chuckie Cheese is inherently MAGA in any way. So like maybe I think we're fine. I think

I don't know. I don't know. I'm interested. I hope Josh Hutcherson, I like the irony of Josh Hutcherson having a big box office hit in the same vicinity as this Hunger Games cash in movie. Where he's playing like a dad. I mean, five nights of Freddy's could open bigger than this Hunger Game. movie. That's maybe the biggest. That and Wanka, I think, are the two biggest question marks. But before we get to Hunger Games, I want to talk about the Marvels, which is tracking

very low. Like, the advanced word on this, and whether this is Marvel trying to, like, lower expectations or whatever, it's looking to track pretty low, which is too bad because it's not like I liked Captain Marvel as very much, but that trailer looked fun. I like the idea of this sort of like triple team-up, you know, superheroes thing. I am in general a fan of Marvel who has not been, you know, I've not been blind to the sort of downturn and quality of the last, many of last sort of movies, although I say that the last Guardians of the Galaxy movie was the only one I really loved.

So maybe don't go by me. But I'll be bummed if the Marvels is the movie that sort of like bears the brunt of like the worst ever opening. Like, it's tracking worse than Eternals or Quantum Mania at this point, which is, I don't know, too bad. Granted, Quantum Mania opened more than $100 million, so. Right, but, but, like, relative, but, like, success in this arena is measured, you know, relatively. Yeah, it immediately died after that.

Yeah. You know, there's been some interesting things that have, that have been pointed out in regards to the Marvel's tracking, aside from the fact that, like, They really haven't begun the promotional campaign for that movie, especially in the way that Marvel movies usually do. The promotional campaign for their movies start, like, three months in advance. I think one thing that I haven't seen pointed out is, like, I do think that this maybe is the first real test of the TV shows in terms of consciousness.

Because, like... Because Tiana Paris and what's her face from... Yeah, of this threesome, two of those characters are ones. that are introduced through the TV shows and not through the movies. Right, right. So that's an interesting question mark. Indeed. And I imagine it doesn't really bode well because I'm dubious as to how many people watched.

Certainly, Ms. Marvel. A lot of people were paying attention to Wanda Vision. But I'm not sure how much Monica was, you know, prominent in that. I liked her very much on that show. But anyway. I do love Tiana Paris, though I did not watch Wanda Vision. WandaVision was good. I think of all that,

I know, knowing your MCU resistance, I still feel like that show would have had the best chance to have hooked you. But regardless, I've learned to pick my battles with you. Hunger Games,

Ballot of Songbirds and Snakes. Yeah, Ballot of Songbirds and Snakes. I'm not rooting for this movie to fail. I just don't know why people would be excited about seeing this. and I'm willing to be proven wrong and maybe people are just like were much more into the Hunger Games

than I thought maybe like the concept is kind of bulletproof but like without Jennifer Lawrence I don't know I don't know I also I've been revisiting the movies I have one left to go what are your thoughts

what is the I don't want to go back to this world for more like it's interesting to re-watched these movies that we cared a lot about at the time. But, like, with diminishing returns. Like, by the end of Mockingjay Part 2, I feel like enthusiasm had really severely waned. Well, because that series ended as the Force Awakens was opening. Yeah.

So, like, as the Force Awakens kind of, like, ate everything's lunch, it really ate that finale's lunch. Also, that third book came out, if not after the first Hunger Games, movie came out, like, around that time. And, like, people didn't like the book either. You know what I mean? Like, people, I don't know. I don't know. So, I don't know. Maybe people are into what, what Twink Snow is doing, what Rachel Ziegler is doing, like, I don't know. Quink Snow, who previously, if we haven't invoked it on this episode enough, the episode that this is being dropped into, I have only seen in Benediction, but he is wonderful in Benediction, but he's also very, very gay. Who is he in Benediction? Is he the bitchy one? I mean, the bitchy one is Jeremy Irvine.

No, no, no, no, no. I mean like the fun bitchy one. I too believe. But, uh, I'm bad at recognizing. Well, it's because he has bleach blonde curly hair in, uh, the ballot of what the fuck and also that. Um, and he's like, you know, period specific brunette. Right. In benediction. Can I say, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but like, I do depend on Wikipedia for refreshing my memory on plot descriptions. There is no plot description

section for benediction right now. And there's a lot of characters in benediction. And sometimes I need to go and remind myself which Brit played whom. And Wikipedia is not helping me. So what I'm saying is... He and Jack Loudon collectively break each other's hearts. Okay.

That's sort of... In the third act of them. Okay. That's sort of who I was thinking. Okay. Yeah, he was wonderful in that movie. Maybe I'm going to have to see the ballot of fuck nuts and whatnot.

not. I suppose. I also don't like Rachel Ziegler, but that's a conversation for another day. Anyway, um... Listen, the internet is very mean to that young woman. This is my thing. We can't talk about it. Literally, I am going on like my third or fourth project of like... We can't get it to it. I can't side against this girl who's like the enemy of like the worst people in the world or whatever. I just think she's like an annoying zoomer. And like that's sort of like she's like gen z in a way that annoys me um but that's not the same as being like stage door manor esk in i don't mind like i don't i usually don't mind that vibe i usually don't mind that vibe with her and annoys me but i'm not like she shouldn't play snow white because snow white is

canonically aryan or whatever like fuck off so exactly all right last couple movies and then we'll get out of here speaking of snow white disney's wish okay which is just beginning its promotional campaign I will say, you mentioned the downturn in the box office. People don't talk about this part as much. Like, Disney and Pixar are, like, floundering at the box office these days. Elemental, which, like, it was a big deal that, like, it opened so badly. Nobody really talked about that movie did, like, a five-time multiplier in terms of its box office. It made $150 million, which, like, for a movie that opened under 30, that's actually really good.

that movie had legs. I think it's just that their movies stick around in theaters for a long time, but they're not these like box office behemoths post-pandemic right out of the gate. Because Disney conditioned their audience to be able to wait

for Disney Plus, like a bunch of fucking world. Yeah, and at this point, like, they might still wait for Disney Plus, but I think because they've, you know, their contracts or whatever, keep them in physical theaters, people eventually don't have things

to take their kids to see and they do catch up to these movies but like Elemental is also awful and wish... I haven't seen Elemental yet I've talked to a few people and they were like wow you really hated that I was like yeah it's really it's the bargain bin of the bargain bid

for Pixar for me I've seen people sort of like come around the other end of it recently and be like this movie is not as bad as people were saying so like that's interesting to me What I will say is, yes, all of the people are different elements, and it's this really crunchy metaphor for racism. Yes. But because everybody is elements, there is a whole, like, race of people that are gas people in the movie.

They are all farts. Like, there's a whole group of people in Elemental that are fart people. And what race are they coded? I don't. I don't really think it's that. It's just like it's so overly broad of a race. I would feel very bad if they were like, you know, French are fart people or something like that. It's so crunchy. I mean, like, granted, I say that it's crunchy, but it's more so, like, the metaphor is meant for, like, under 10 years old. Sure.

I am not the intended audience for Elton. Can I also mention, though, while we're on the topic of animation, though, the other anime, made-in movie that I mentioned in my article is migration, which is the one about like the ducks flying south or whatever, and Aquafina is a tough talking pigeon that they encounter in New York City or whatever. But like migration is an illumination animation project, which is essentially like minions. Think minions when you think illumination, right? And now Mario. Well, I was going to say, they're the only ones who are like exceeding expectations at the box office in the animation realm, right? Pixar's

floundering. Disney is floundering. And, like, Super Mario Brothers and fucking Minions Rise of Gru are, like, two, like, genuine animated hits of the post-pandemic era. So I wouldn't be shocked if migration does maybe better than we're thinking, even though it's just a movie about a bunch of ducks. All right. Last thing, we talked about it a little bit last time. Wonka. What? What's this movie going to be? I want you and I, but, both to make a claim and be like, is Wonka going to be a bomb or a hit? Listen, Wonka is a hit for me using the little mini clip from the trailer of Timmy Shalame saying, here we go, Mama.

Here we go, Mama. Here we go, Mama. Yeah. It looks like something I will not see. Oh, I'm definitely seeing this. I'm definitely seeing it. Timmy looks so weird, man I'm into it

I'm a fan I'm sorry I'm a Timmy Chalamay fan It very well could make money I don't think that The rest of the Christmas window is very interesting Aquaman I think is equally primed To do

Well as bad as the MCU movies have gone The DC movies have done worse Somehow However The original The first Aquaman Also have that patina of failure in advance, and it did very well.

I think the color purple has potential to surprise, even though early word on it is not. Talk about a genre that has been flopping at the movies. Musicals have just been tanking. But when you think of musicals in the Christmas window, they do have long legs and make money. But when... Well, when you're not cats. I was going to say, like, when was the last time that that was true? Like, Le Miz?

Le Miz did it. Dreamgirls did it. It's a different world. You know what I mean? It's a different world now. I don't know. We will see. I was so burned on in the Heights bombing that, like, I have no more faith in anything anymore.

And West Side Story. It's also a musical. They don't want you to know that, but it is. West Side Story also opened in the Christmas window, and that didn't do it. So, all right, all right. This is a long 20-minute conversation. conversation about box office. How's everybody doing it on your box office? We're giving it all out of our system

because here's, I cannot wait until I can talk about awards points instead of box office points because that's the thing I'm good at. This is why I wanted to talk to you about this, though. The point is... We also didn't mention Beyonce. There should be box office points. Well, because Beyonce is not available for the pool,

so not our problem. Yeah, not our problem. She announced too late. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Beyonce. If you wanted to be part of the pool, you should have announced earlier, and that's all there is to it. She's going to win the documentary Oscar. Stop it. No one's going to get those points.

No. Concert movies don't win documentary Oscars. They don't. Foolishness. Fulishness. All right. If you want to go play the Vulture Movies Fantasy League and see how your box office points are doing for your various movies. Go to vulture.com slash movies dash league.

You can check out and see how your team is doing, how your friends are doing. You can filter by league. If you're in the All of Us Gary's League, you can see. I want to go see who. not all of us gays, our rival league of five people. The current leader, as I am looking at this, and this will probably change by the time you're listening to it because we'll have updated with the new weekend. But team Nicole Kidman's divorce photos, which God bless you. Great team name. Great team name. Is currently riding those points from Exorcist Believer and

Taylor Swift and the creator. So, and Nicole Kidman's divorce photos. has Killers of the Flower Moon, so it'll be getting even more box office points. So shout out. Shout out to you for your current lead in the All of Us. Gary's Pool. There's a bunch of people who are currently 27 points behind Nicole Kidman's divorce photos, sorry, Nicole Kidman's divorce photos, where she is celebrating Nicole Kidman's divorce papers.

So congratulations to you, and we hope for you. your continued success. Chris, what else do we have to say about our Garry's? Apologies to anybody who, well, not apologies. This is just your bad, you just have bad luck. If you drafted the bike riders, it's been indefinitely moved. We're going to assume that means 2024 at the point. Well, they're sort of holding out, the longer we go without an agreement between Sag Aftera and the studios, the more likely it is that the bike riders will move to 2024. Also, it did not make an impression when it premiered at Venice. Yeah, I don't think you're getting awards points anyways. It premiered at Telluride. Okay. Um, listen, we both love Jeff

Nichols. We are, I'm excited to see this movie regardless, but I don't think it's, uh, it's going to make an impression award season wise. So 2024, if you, if you drafted the bike rider, you might not have had a whole lot of success anyway. So I guess, feel okay about it that way. Also, before we stop, shout out Clay Keller, former guest and our good friend, who is currently in the co-lead on the podcast, in the podcasters league, currently with his team tied with Andrew Juppen of We Hate Movies. So go Clay. We love friends of the show doing well in the movie Fantasy League. All right. Anything else to say before we send our listeners back into the waiting embrace.

of uh of rachel vice and the cold uh supportive financially supportive uh presence of of simon russell beale all right let's do it all right you leave the discussion on rachel vice because she's she's obviously the one who gets the most attention from this movie she gets a new york film critic circle prize she's in the oscar conversation although we'll talk about Yeah. First and foremost, I was so shocked that we've done so few Rachel Weiss movies. It's only two, right? Well, hold on.

So we should definitely talk about her career. Yes, we should. I mean, we just talked about Lovely Bones over on the Patreon. Right. So it makes it seem like it's more. It makes it seem like it's even more because there's really not a lot of movies. Those don't count towards six-timers, though. Right.

And I genuinely couldn't remember if we talked about light between oceans or not. Not yet. Not yet. But we have to. We have to. Sure, sure. We've always talked about talking about other sunshine. Which we also should do at some point, other sunshine.

Yeah, just to say that we've set that movie. I will say, before we get into her filmography, I just did want to sort of stray mention. All three of these leads all come from, if not outright, posh. beginnings, but, like, Rachel Weiss and Tom Hiddleston both went to Cambridge, and Tom Hittleston went to, like, Eaton as a young child and sort of, like, went to all these sort of, like, boarding school prep schools. Simon Russell Beale's father was the Surgeon General in the British Armed Forces, like he was born in Malaysia. Like, he's sort of, from that. Rachel Vise's parents were both immigrants from Hungary and Austria, but when she came to England, sort of, you know, grew up in

London, was a model at a young age, went to Cambridge. So, like, it's interesting that they all sort of are in these kind of somewhat similar kind of posh circles before this movie. Anyway, go on. We talked about her on our My Blueberry Night. episode. Right. Which, if I remember her performance in that movie, is kind of goofy. Not my fave. Not my favorite. Um, she's, uh, she's going for it. She's an actress who, I remember, it took me a while to sort of put her in the realm of great actress versus like, oh, she's like someone who was in chain reaction and the mummy. You know what I mean? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I sort of chalked her up as sort of just like a, a, uh, a, a, I think she's one of our greats. I think she is, but it took me a while to sort of, like, click my mind into that realm for her.

And it was probably not until enemy at the gates, maybe, that it did it for me. Really? Maybe. Enemy at the gates? I never saw Stealing Beauty. I never saw... I never saw that either.

I never saw other sunshine. What would it have been for you that would have unlocked it for you? Aside from the... I mean, I did love that mummy movie when it came out and loved her, but I don't think I really thought of her, aside from the mummy and how fun she is in that movie. She's one of the love interests in About a Boy. Yeah, she's great in that. Shortly after that.

Yeah. I actually saw the shape of things in theaters. Me too. Me too. Both of us, you know, contributed to what is probably that movie's maybe $50,000 box office gross. If it's any more than that. How dare you? It's $826,000.

I'd say, I'd look into whether that's worldwide or domestic, but I can't imagine they opened this thing anywhere with the United States. I mean. Yeah, I definitely saw it in theaters. After that point, you know, she's in kind of the... B-tier thrillers, like confidence and runaway jury. Runaway jury, though. They have her going toe-to-to-to with Gene Hackman a lot in that movie. Like, that's not an easy assignment.

Like, she kind of holds up to some... Right, right. And I loved her in Constantine. I mean, Constantine. Constantine, for a movie that's not very satisfying, still rules? Rules. I think it rules. And maybe 50% of that is due to Tilda Swinton.

I think she's great, but I also think Keanu's great. I think, I mean, I think fucking Gavin Rostell's great in that movie. Like, what a great cast. I love that movie so much. Francis Lawrence's best moment in film, Constantine. Constantine is the year also of her Oscar win for the Constant Gardner. She wins that Oscar in a very competitive, I would say, competitive year. I think the batting average of that supporting actress line up is high.

But she wins everything. You know what I mean? Like, it's a very competitive year, but she ends up, like sweeping the table once. And I think that's because that was a very well-regarded movie generally. Yeah. I think it's a very good movie. She got out early. Amy Adams also got out early.

Yep. And it's a big role. It's a big, it's a prominent role. You know what I mean? Like it's Yeah. Yeah. She's up against like Michelle Williams in Brokeback Mountain, Francis McDormand in North Country, which are both like a lot smaller roles. Catherine Keener and Capote, also a smaller role. So it really was kind of like her and Amy Adams

Did she miss SAG or something Because she was campaigned as lead there Maybe Maybe I feel like that's a thing I just can't remember where I'll look it up You keep talking about Rachel

She's incredible in that movie A movie that I think otherwise Is somewhat forgotten Except for her performance And I think that's the moment When we all kind of really realized What she could do but then she kind of doesn't get to make good on that for somewhat of a while.

Her next movie is The Fountain, where she obviously meets and marries Darren Aronofsky, then goes on to the not well-liked Wongarwai movie, My Blueberry Nights, and in the same year, she's the love interest in Fred Clause. Ouch. She did win the SAG Award for supporting that year. she was not moved into her. I remember there was talk of her being on the borderline. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a, I would, I think that's fine to be in supporting for that role. She's so, I think it's more to her credit and the performances credit that she was discussed in that way because she's so commanding when she is on screen in that movie. Yeah. I think Ray, I think Ray Fines was kind of slated that. year and not being in the lead actor conversation. But that's a me. She also has, she's one of the love interests and definitely maybe the kind of forgotten Ryan Johnson movie, The Brothers

Bloom. Although I stick up for the Brothers Bloom. It's been forever since I've seen it, but I should watch that. I remember really loving her in it. Her and Ruffalo and Adrian Brody, I thought made a great trio. The one I haven't seen is Agora. The Amanabar Alejandro Aminabar movie Yeah Where she plays Egyptian

Ancient Egyptian Scientist Mathematician Hypatia Hypatia Maybe we'll do that movie eventually We should Because it definitely did have

A degree of Oscar buzz It was also one of those movies That felt like It was one of those movies That had the Oscar buzz Until people saw it Well it was like On the release

calendar for like two years too like and then it got sort of like quietly kicked out the back door and then yeah yeah exactly I remember she had some buzz for the whistleblower for a second there too like very briefly right? Well because that's also along with Agora it was

you know she has her Oscar and here she is in her lead role finally now that she's you know won her Oscar I don't I think that movie had somewhat of a mixed reception, if I remember correctly. Yeah, that kind of dampened it.

That could be. It's interesting to place the deep blue sea as sort of, this feels a little bit like a, I don't know why it would be, but like a turning point where it went from, when is Rachel Weiss going to get her opportunities to like, she keeps getting so many opportunities after this. Because like, after the deep blue sea, she's in like big blockbusters. like The Born Legacy, she's in Yorgos movies and, what's his name, the Italian guy, Sorrentino movies, and she's in...

Even for the ones that aren't well received, like, Oz the Great and Powerful is terrible, and nobody remembers that movie whatsoever. That movie made a lot of money. She's working with Sam Ramey. She fought for that role. She's in, like, it was, she's in a lot of advertisements, you know what I mean? Like, it's a high profile movie, even if, you know, I feel like it's a profile raiser even though it doesn't really succeed creatively, right? Yeah.

So there's that. 2015, as I mentioned, she's in the lobster for Lanthamos. She's in youth for Sorrentino. She ends up being in a bunch of costume dramas like The Light Between Oceans and my cousin, Rachel.

She's in Sebastian Lelio's disobedience, which rules and she rules in it. And maybe Rachel McAdams rules even more. You know what I mean? Like everybody in that movie is really, really good. Alessandro Navola's really good in that movie. As a character who, a lesser movie, I think, wouldn't ask you to

give him any sympathy or empathy. We've got to do disobedience, too. That's a great. That's a great movie. The Mercy was another one of those movies. that felt like it was coming out for about two straight years. That was the, um, uh, this was another balloon movie, was it? No. Balloons.

No. This was, uh, but this was like an explorer movie, right? Sailor. It's a sailing movie. Sorry, it's not balloons, it's sailing. Um, it's her and Colin Firth. It's the guy who directed the theory of everything. Oh, great.

From a Scott Z. Burns script and like, nobody saw it. Like, it just, I genuinely, I genuinely don't even know. Died at Tribeca or something. Kind of, like, maybe not even that. I don't even remember, like, what exactly the release strategy was for it. It just sort of, like, felt it like it was on a shelf forever. But anyway, the mercy.

So there was that. And then the favorite is, like, hey, remember who can act the shit out of a role? Rachel fucking Vice. And... It feels like Rachel Weiss gets. It's to tap into finally the rascally side of herself that we love in, like, interviews. Well, she was great on the press tour for the favorite. Obviously, that's my beloved T.H.R. roundtable where she bewitches Catherine Hahn, body, and soul, just by sort of existing.

And Catherine Hahn is, like, fiddling with her hair and touching Rachel's hand. And it's so, it's incredible. It's so great. At this point, she's now married to Daniel Craig and has given delectable quotes where I think somebody was asking coyly somewhat about their sex life or what it's like to be such a beautiful couple or something. And she's like, well, we didn't marry each other to play chess. Just an incredible wit. I should also mention that this upcoming, whenever they actually happen, Emmy Awards are null and void of merit because Rachel Weiss was not nominated for her role as twin gynecologists in The Dead Ringers remake. Which even I still have to finish. I think that's the thing. I think people didn't watch the show. I think that's probably true. And I will say, as somebody who like I looked at,

that, I was like, that looks dark and depressing. I maybe don't want to watch it. I watched it for work. It's so worth it. She's so good. Jennifer Ely is so terrifying. Love Jennifer Ely. Sean Dirkin and Karen Kusama, each direct

episodes that are amazingly visually dark and, like, I know some people were like it was literally too dark. I couldn't see anything. And I'm like, I sympathize, I suppose. But like, there is something genuinely like portal to hell about the episodes, especially that Dirkin and Karen Kusama do. It's, it's dreadful in like, you know what I mean, in like it, in that it is full of dread. And I think it's

tremendous television. It's one of those things where it's just like, if you are going to bother to do the, we're making a five-part movie, you know what I mean? It's like, at least make it look like a movie and like dead ringers has like visual language to spare it's so so good honestly maybe I'll finish it for my spooky season watching it would be worth it it would definitely be worth it uh we'll talk about our spooky season watching next week um mine has been derailed because I agreed to a second screen draft but you don't have a lot to watch for that second screen I know I know but I've also announced we can't talk about I've also been out of town like I I really, like, I will do more things to derail my spooky season watching.

It's too bad because, like, I always have the best laid plans, and now I'm, like, hopelessly behind. This is a good year for what, like, people have put on streaming. It is. All the stuff for spooky season. It is. Back to Rachel, of her upcoming projects that I really hope this is happening, IMDB listed as in production, so maybe it has an interim agreement. She's reuniting with Colin Farrell for a movie called,

Love Child that is supposed to be somewhat based on Oedipus or Todd Salon's. Okay. I will get loud and annoying for this movie if it does happen. Imagine, yes. Because them being reunited, Todd Salon's being back. Them reunited from the lobster, we should say, but yes. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Her lobster performance, I think, is incredible just on narration alone. I think it's my favorite movie narration. I totally forgot that she narrates that movie. She narrates it like she just smoked two pack of cigarettes, was in an auto accident, and, you know, somebody's hounding her for money. Sure. She sounds so done with the human race.

Well, that is kind of her vibe now. You know what I mean? She's, she's, I mean, I shouldn't say it. Like, I do think she's able to play a wise. variety of characters. So, like, I really, there's nothing that really, like, sort of nails her down, but, like, there is a sort of withering quality to the way she addresses people in a lot of movies these days that I genuinely love, this sort of, like, you know, the favorite or, oh, what are, like, my cousin Rachel, she's sort of like that, and...

It does seem like Lathemos uniquely understands what makes her special in... in her own way, for lack of a more trite phrase, that I just really hope that they continue to work together. So let's talk about her performance in the deep lucy, though, because it's hard. I feel like this is a difficult character to... You have to really convey a lot of conflicting emotions, sort of all at once,

especially because the bulk of this is happening on a single day where she's so despondent that she's going to kill herself, but she also has to have these, like, demonstrably strong feelings towards both of these men in her life, right? You know what I mean? Yeah. And there are so many...

These relationships that are more complicated than we would maybe reduce them to, or we expect them to be at the start of the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the estranged husband thing, how many of those movies have we seen? But actually her relationship and the terms that they both seem to agree on

while still needing each other in this really weird way that they accept is something that I... There's that scene out on the sidewalk, where after all the sort of cards are out on the table, it's later on in this day.

And she's remarkably sort of blunt and upfront with him about why she left him, why Freddie, you know, what's going on there, And the movie, and I, you know, the play, you know, this was a Radigan's play, obviously, doesn't take the easy road with him and make him this sort of sneering, you know, I will have you destroyed kind of person. He's just sort of, he's still in love with her.

He says, you know what I mean? And it's sad. It's, you know, it's very sad. she also gets these like incredible sort of dead on shots that hold her face as she's remembering something or confronting something and I imagine those must be terrifying to film where it's just sort of just like it's so close on your face every little every little thought that you have risks betraying this scene do you know what I mean because it's all. sort of shows in your face. Also, just the kind of naked demand that you as a performer be interesting.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. But she kills it. She's so good. She's incredible. I mean, in that way, her ability to convey all of these conflicting things sometimes wordlessly makes her a bit of the ideal

Terence Davies performer. Yeah, that makes sense. Especially for like material like this, where it's like, it's not like it's incredibly wordy. She doesn't really get a lot of text to help her, you know, sell where this character is at. Right, right. Talk a little bit. It's a brief movie. It's like a 90 minute movie. You wouldn't think so, but it is. Talk about the scene where she and Sir William, Lord William, what's Simon Russell Biel, go very, visit his mother in the country.

Oh, my God. His awful mother. She just like looks for every opportunity to cut her down to size. Every single comment. Every single thing she says is intended to wound Hester. And, you know,

Rachel Weiss plays it in a way that like it does wound her deeply and we realize not only this character, you know, taking all of these hits, basically. but the realization coming over her that the two of them are never going to be able to work together because of this type of situation, you know, how fatal it is to her, the fatal realization that her marriage will never work because of, you know, this relationship

and this dynamic, you know? Well, that he, like, doesn't stand up for her to his mother, that he will always sort of defer to her. And, oh, yeah. And that's when she, like, goes upstairs and, like, calls up Freddy and, like, gets, like, caught. Like, you know, I think there's a, there's a big part of her that does not care to hide this anymore, that she's on the phone. And she says, oh, darling, I'll meet you, whatever. And her back is to Simon Russell Beale, but, like, the door's open.

It's not like, you know, she's doing very much to hide this phone call. As much as Davies movies, you know, contain multitudes. in that there is no, like, quintessential Davies scene, but, like, the element of brutality in his movies, I think he makes very brutal movies in that, like, it's never violence, it's never, uh, sometimes, you know, horrific things happen to his characters, but brutal in the way of, like, the way we can be so, like, emotionally as people devastated to our, core by something, whether it's an interaction, whether it's something that happens in the world or to us, like the way that that pain can feel so personal and internal, Davies captures that in every single one of his movies in a way that just like will knock you sideways. And that scene was very true to that, I felt. Because it's like we've all been that character where it's just like, we're so cut down to size by this person who, you know, destroys us so easily. Right.

So the movie comes out in the United States in March. We sort of fast forward to the fall. We're in award season. And the main contenders are sort of shaping up to be... Once we get through Toronto, Jennifer Lawrence is on the map for Silver Lining's playbook for sure. I can't remember when Jessica Chastain started to like accumulate buzz, But, like, that was happening.

That movie was a question mark until, I don't think it screened until, like, Thanksgiving time. But then it was immediate, like, heading. It was one of my very first press screenings that I ever saw was, uh, was zero dark 30. Amor was taking from Cannes throughout the season to, you know, really have this cumulative effect. But, you know, there was always whispers for Emmanuel Riva. And Beast of the Southern Wild was a Sundance movie. There was a long time during that season where people thought both Emmanuel Riva and Kavanaugh-Wallis would miss because Kovangene-Wallis because she's a kid and Emmanuel Riva because she's not American and she was not really able to campaign as much. Right, yeah.

So it's kind of a wild, wide-open year. And so into this year, Rachel Weiss manages to grab the New York film critic's circle. Prize for Best Actress, which she beats out the runners-up at New York Film Critic Circle that year were the three, you know, main suspects for the Oscar race, right? Jessica Chastain and Zero Dark 30, which had won film and director at that New York Film Critic Circle. So, like, clearly she was a big contender for actress as well, Jennifer Lawrence, and then Emmanuel Riva. it'd be, I'd love to talk to somebody who was in the room and just be like, was this A, we couldn't decide between Chastain and Lawrence, so Vice was A, you know. Was this a reaction to the many raised eyebrows when they awarded Meryl Streep the prize the year before for the Iron Lady? Maybe. Um, but however it, you know, shook out. Good for, uh, good for Rachel Weiss, a very,

a deserving win, I would say, that year. This is a category that for the New York Film Critics Circle, you know, they like to make a choice. They like to whether give someone a real leg up in the race like they did for whites or, you know, they really want to... Endorsement matters to this group. Yeah. Recent winners of this category include Regina Hops.

Hall for Support the Girls, Lupita Nongo for us, Sidney Flanagan for Never, Rarely, Sometimes, Always. And once again, in a choice, Stephanie Germanada for House of Gucci. I love that. They also have seemingly, in recent years, become more aware of kind of spreading the wealth that if we're going to give a movie a prize here, we're not going to so much, which was not the case in 2012. Like I said, Zero Dark 31 Picture and Director.

Lincoln won actor, supporting actress, screenplay. Zero Directory also wins cinematography, I should also mention. So, like, it was basically those two movies and, like, a smattering of other things for the Deep Blue Sea. McConaughey wins supporting actor that year for Magic Mike and Bernie together. It's interesting that it was... Well, I guess his other movies from the McConaissance were previous year, right? Killer Joe was 2011 and Mud was 2012 but they probably would have considered him a lead

Yeah, that's true, that's true. Maybe Mud was 2012 can and then came out in 23. Perhaps, perhaps. Go back to our mud episode. We can tell you there. Yes. So anyway, and interesting, I always love when the critics groups publish their runners-up. I think it's much more interesting. I know that New York film critic circle is one of those ones that tries to tell its members that they're not allowed to talk about anything that happens in the room and yada yada yada which to me it's like because a lot of this used to be reported etc but like and i get if you don't want to like talk about like the

arguments in the room where somebody is like jennifer lawrence doesn't deserve shit like that kind of thing but like yeah there are critics group that get all of their uh winners to show up too right but like mention your runners up it's fun it's nice it's more names that get nominated like you know what I mean? Like, I can understand somebody's like, oh, I feel raw that I came close but didn't get it, but like, I don't know. But it's a great call because her performance is absolutely incredible

and among her best. And, you know, it's, it not to, you know, keep belaboring the point, but it is a real injustice is not the word, but it sucks that the work of Davies

throughout his career didn't land, you know, recognition in this way often. You know, this is probably his most recognized movie in that way. Yeah, I think that's right. Well, Gillian Anderson also had some precursor action for the House of Mirth in a similar way, right? I thought it was less than you would imagine. Maybe. Let's pull up House of Mirth and see.

Bafta nominated it for Best British Film and Costume Design. Okay. So not even Bafta was into the Terrence Davies thing. That's too bad. No, no. I think the best British film nomination for this movie is the only nomination that he ever got. I might be wrong about that. Britain. Come on, Britain.

Gillian Anderson was one of the runner-ups for New York critics. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's it. Okay. So Rachel then also gets nominated for The Golden Globe that year does not win. This is a great nomination for sometimes the globes do a good thing and go their own way. Although look at this category, it's like the Globes give and the Globes take because also you get Helen Mirren for Hitchcock, which... Okay, but this race was really shaping up to be like Helen Mirren is seriously getting nominated for Hitchcock.

Well, remember there was that, like, three-year or five-year stretch where in many of those years, Helen Mirren was getting all the precursors and then would stop just short of an Oscar nomination. Trumbo was that way. She was Sag nominated and Bafton nominated for Hitchcock. Yeah, that's what I mean. So, like, it's interesting. The year of Trumbo... The big sudden snub this year, though, who Rachel Weiss was also nominated for The Globe with, is actually marrying Cotiard for Rust and Bone. She was right up in there until the very last minute, yep.

Including a Critics' Choice nomination. Yes. Who do we? Now, I guess it was just sort of a case where there were six people for five slots, and ultimately, whether it's Quivanginay Wallace or Naomi Watts for the Impossible, who nabbed the slot instead of Marion, you know, it's tough to say. Again, we'd love to look at those voting totals. But it does seem like...

Naomi Watts, the little train that just kept on chugging. all season, because that movie never really landed. I like that movie, and I like that performance. Yeah, it's a good movie. She's good in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. You looked up the other actresses who have played the role of Hester on stage and the stage play of the Deep Lucy. I think that's an interesting. It's a pretty formidable group. Peggy Ashcroft, Margaret Sullivan, Blythe Danner, and Helen

McCrory all played this role on the stage. Helen McCrory, who was also on Penny Dreadful, with Simon Russell Beale. So there we go. Peggy Ashcroft, an Oscar winner in her time for a passage to India. Margaret Sullivan, a nominee. Right. Blythe Danner never nominated, but, you know, we love her. We do love her.

Tony winner? She have a Tony? Let's see. She's definitely nominated for that one. Follies Revival. Oh, she was in Follies. Yeah. I believe it was the first Broadway revival of Follies.

Oh, fantastic. I don't think it did well. Awards and nominations. Follies was hard, man. She won the Tony Award for Best Featured actress in a play in 1970 for Butterflies are Free. She won, of course, we all remember the back-to-back Emmy Awards that she won for the Showtime series Huff. We all remember Huff.

Huff is Ted Danson? What's that? Huff is Hank Azaria. Becker is dancing. She won the Theater World Award in 1969 for a play called The Miser. She won a Saturn Award for Best Actress in 1976 for a science fiction movie called Future World. that I believe is a Westworld sequel. It is.

It's a Westworld sequel, starring Peter Fonda and Arthur Hill and Yule Brinner is still in this one. Yes, she won a Saturn Award for that. So what's the version of a BAFTA that's a Tony, a Saturn, an Emmy, and giving birth to Gwyneth Paltrow? That's a... A Beggs. There we go. Fafta, Emmy, Gwyneth, Saturn. Okay, there we go.

Blythe Danner are only Beggs, I can say. So, good for you, Blythe. Very good. We are going to be, we're going to look back and be like, what was that episode where we said that dumb thing about Blythe Danner winning something called the Beggs, and we're not going to be able to remember it because it's in our Deep Lucy episode that, like, she's so tangentially related to. This is how it happens, everybody.

This is how the soup is made. I want to loop back to the Davies filmography. I know we probably ran through this in our House of Mirth episode, but that would have been a while ago. It was a while ago, yeah. You know, given his passing, it's good to shout out his work as much as we can. Listeners should go and check it out because he is definitely an underseen and underappreciated filmmaker.

Sure. You know, if anything good can come from his sad passing, it's that people can, you know, come to know his work better. He originally made a series of shorts that has since been combined and considered a feature called his trilogy. But his debut feature is Distant Voices Still Lives, which got a ton of praise at the time. It's kind of this like tapestry of Liverpool life, you know, the half joke that I said earlier of like, you know, of people just singing in bars, that's a good chunk of that, making the joke of that movie, but like, it is a very exquisite movie. Even people like Goddard praise that movie. And Long Day Closes feels like such a natural extension of that movie. It almost feels like you could wrap them up together and it's like it just zeroes in on this one child. But it's, it's its own thing as well. And obviously, you know, quite autobiographical. And I feel like, you know, because he's on this trajectory, that was a Cannes Competition movie.

And then his follow-up to that really was so poorly well-received. It was the Neon Bible, which is an adaptation of like a Southern novel. So it's like he's also going from this very particular unique Liverpool life to doing an American set story. So I think people were ready to be skeptical about it. It's a movie that also is not completely successful in what it's doing. It's definitely his weakest movie, I think. But, like, there's good qualities there. And it has Jenna Rollins.

So who are we to complain? Right. But I do think it set his career off in a trajectory. It definitely took a lot of the wins out of the sales. And, you know, at that point where it's like, you know, you maybe take a creative leap when you're on an ascent and then you get knocked down a peg and the career doesn't ever, you know, gain that momentum back in the way of public excitement and reception, you know, after Neon Bible, he never plays Cannes competition again. And it's like, you look at these movies and it's like, why? Yeah, everything he makes after Neon Bible feels very much like it could have played a can. of time in the city, the, you know, Liverpool nonfiction film that he makes plays out of competition and can. But, like, Tiff really becomes his home with his next film, which is House of Mirth.

Because every film after that played Tiff, I believe. Including, I think the only one where it did world premiere at Tiff is a quiet passion, which played Berlin. He was never invited to Venice. But it's House of Merth in 2000. You have Of Time in the City in 2008, but Deep Blue C is his first fiction feature in over a decade. Then you have Sunset Song, which he had was a passion project. He'd been trying to make for years in 2015. Next year, it's a quiet passion.

The Emily Dickinson movie that is very good. Cynthia Nixon is very good, as Jennifer Ely is as well. And his final film, Benediction, which we've talked at length about. have. They're all very good. Yes, we should. Yes. Mostly available somewhere. House of Mirth used to be really hard to get your hands on. It's on Paramount Plus as a... I feel like when we did it, I like bought the DVD. I like have a DVD.

It was the hardest movie we ever had to get our hands on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so funny. Yeah. A fantastic filmmaker, I should say. You know what I mean? Like, it's just what else? What can you say? And somebody, you know, who is not in maybe the public consciousness the way that other of his contemporaries are and that he, you know, probably deserves to be, so. You can see how he's not mainstream, but I don't think he's doing anything. He's certainly, you watch two Terrence Davies movies and you can spot a Terrence Davy ism.

You know, you can kind of understand. at least where he's coming from in terms of cinematic style. Well, so the movies of his... But it's not that challenging to audiences, you know, where it's like, it's not, you know, like, maybe you won't fully get it, you know, what his perspective is from watching one movie, but it's not like, it's not baffling to anybody.

But I think the packaging for these movies make people think that they're going to be boring or that they're going to be slow or that they're going to be long. You know what I mean? And they're none of those things, actually. I think Benediction's his longest movie, and it's like two hours and 15 minutes.

And Benediction like hums along, as far as I'm concerned. But like, the House of Mirth, deep-loosey, like a quiet passion. Is Sunset Song also a period piece, I imagine? Yes. Yeah. So these are all of these movies that are like period pieces, costume dramas, and those movies have a,

such a reputation and it's just funny to me that Davies has never attained a reputation of somebody who does period piece costume drama with an especially with with you know a special urgency to it or a special like spark to it like he does those movies and they never feel like the same old same old even something like the house of mirth which is edith wharton edith wharton yes um or like a quiet passion. It's like, oh, come watch my Emily Dickinson biopic. And I know we have, we've had like a television show that's like Emily Dickinson, but it's like, cool Emily Dickinson. You know what I mean? Those, both Dickinson, a show I love and, uh, quiet passionate movie I love, uh, have, I think a similar point of view, but are so totally different in what they're doing in a way that I find very

interesting. Right. Um, but I just think, yeah, you're right. It's like he, on the surface of them, these are movies that I think were too easy for people to reduce as stuffy when they're far more interesting than the way these movies... And not in these, like, high-concept ostentatious ways, but just in execution, just in the way that he executes or his, you know, perspective that he puts on things. There's an immersiveness to, you know, the type of life he's to, you know, the type of life he's to the way memory and the passage of time is, I find it very absorbing as a viewer. And also, I mean, I think this is something that's really come into focus with his death for a lot of people who love his work, is that, you know, most of his work was adaptations or it's like the way that he does, you know, the poetry of Siegfried Sassoon or Emily Dickinson, you know, it feels as much like he's adapted.

their work as making a story about their life. As much as all of the, his work is sourced in something else, every single one of his movies is about him and his

view of the world. Yes. And like, not to be too reductive of it, but like the way we talk about like Scorsese, like all Scorsese movies are about Scorsese's view of the world. Wouldn't win. know, his experience, you know, we should be, sorry, I'm just doing the thing.

Loach. We should be able to talk about someone like Terrence Davies in that way, because that's what his movies are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I wanted to bring up, we mentioned the Molly Malone sing-along in the tube, the London Underground during the Blitz. There's also, though, the You Belong to Me sing-along in the pub. that is, I think, equally gorgeous.

And that, to me, is where, like, that's where you sell the romance between Hester and Freddie and sort of the, like, this, it just seems like, oh, who wouldn't want this life of this sort of vibrant, deeply felt, you know, love that she has for him in this, you know, wonderful little setting. This like, idyllic English pub, a whole English pub full of like, you know, friendly faces all singing this, this lovely, gorgeous song and everybody's singing to their sweethearts. And, um,

I don't know. I just loved it. I loved it. You know what? Good movie. Good movie. All right. You know what? Special filmmaker. Yes, exactly. Well, we hope we did good tribute. And we can be, we'll be back. We'll be back for other Terrence Davies movies. A long way. 100%. All right.

Joseph, would you like to move on to the IMDB game by explaining to our lovely listeners? I would, in fact. Every week we have our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress, and we try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue.

And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints and a free-for-all of memories and lovely times had with old loves and whatnot. Indeed. My good sir, would you like to give or guess first? I'll give first. Whom's, do you have pot-up? So I mentioned the outfit, the movie that Simon Russell Biel plays in Chicago. gangster in he the the main character and protagonist of that film uh is a man played by mark rylance who i don't think we've ever done for this podcast in this game so why don't you

tackle mark rylance hmm no television no like theater filmed for you know right um My genuine question, the curiosity question, is the BFG is there, but I would be willing to bet that he's not credited as voice because it's mocap. Your face is defying nothing. So I'm going to say the BFG? The BFG, correct. Your assumption was correct. Bridge of Spies.

Bridge of Spies, correct, his Oscar win. I feel like the big short showed up for somebody and I have to take the opportunity to talk about how abysmal he is in that movie and I'm going to say the big short. Not the big short, not the big short, don't look up. I was going to say, I didn't think he was in the big short. Don't look up.

No, not don't look up. Strike one. Ready player one. Not ready player one, strike two. Wow. All right. Your remaining films are 2017 and 2020. Okay, so

the outfit wasn't the outfit was 2022 okay so what's his 2020 movie that is obviously forgotten

oh it's a trial of Chicago 7 where I am of the opinion that he should have been the supporting actor nominee out of that movie I thought he's so good in that movie I don't think I could pull out a single I know. You don't like that movie. Joe's a dummy. It's fine.

I didn't, I don't think you're stupid. I just don't remember that movie is what I'm saying. I remember no element of that movie. Okay. One more. Um, uh, I would never think that you're stupid. Um, 2017. 2017. What was he? I feel like he's in another. movie I don't like from 2017 because I don't like a lot of his screen performances. I do think you like this. Oh, how nice. I do. Maybe not like passionately, but I feel like you like this movie. Okay. So, I mean, he's really not in much that isn't released during awards season, so it has to be something like that. He does a lot of Spielberg now, but did Spielberg have a movie in 2017?

No, he had, Spielberg had the post, but he's not in the post. He has not in the post. Did Spielberg have two in 2017? Hmm. Rye Lance, he's always doing a thing and a voice, and it's all going together in a soup. What did you think of him in Bones and All? Besides the fact that he's playing the pedophile from family guy. I have less... We can talk about it whenever we do Bones and All.

Yeah, we got to do Bones and All. You know what? Anybody who wants to have a strong opinion about his performance in that movie, let them have it, is my idea, because, like, I don't know. Like, he's fine? Compared to how I usually have. hate him in movies for me to not have an opinion on him in a movie

is a win. I really thought he was headed to a Zellweger in Cold Mountain style nomination last year for that. So you're saying he'd think he's bad. But in a way that I found so watchable. You know what I mean? Right. Right. Yeah.

Is it like his performance in Bones and all? Is that why you asked this question? No. No, actually, this is not to just start throwing so many hints. This is a pretty restrained. This is like, you know, you get like restrained rilence. I think this is

kind of peak restrained rylance. Oh, okay. Ooh. Nothing that I was on the track of was like that. So, make sense that I maybe like this movie. Is it a British film? Mm-hmm. Very much so.

Oh, okay. Very much so. In 2017, that was probably Oscar season or Oscar nominated. Well, you're right and wrong about that. Oscar season, not nominated. Nope. Nominated, not Oscar season. Right.

Okay. So, what was nominated out of the fall that year? 2017. He's not in get out. He's not... I will say, I weirdly always forget this one. Oh, it's...

Dunkirk. It's Duncirk. You like Dunkirk, right? I'm not mistaken there, right? He's fine in Dunkirk. I do like Duncirk quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's stupid. I should have guessed that. You know, the reason I didn't is because I'm like, thinking of Rylance does a thing. Yeah. It is a little weird that Rye Lance wasn't nominated for Dunkirk. We're going to look back on that movie in years to come and be like, wait, one movie had Barry Keoggan and Tom Hardy and Jack Loudon and... I'm telling you. Who else?

Like, who are the... Harry Styles. Harry Styles. Killian Murphy, you know what I mean? Like, there's a world... One of the Finns. Finn Whitehead. I can still, I can't...

I'm not the person who's like, oh, handsome young British guys look the same. But I truly can't pick Finn Whitehead out of the lineup. Like, it's going to take a few... You can pin Finn Whitehead because he was on the post. Even still. Even still, it's tough. I don't know. But, like, the talent that is packed into this movie is of the, like, this, like, whole generation of, like, young British white boys is just very kind of funny to me. But, but, like, genuinely, there's a world in which in five years, Barry Keogan, Killian Murphy, Jack Loudon are all, like, Oscar winners for various things. Like, who the hell knows? Anyway, to go with Mark Rylance's Oscar. Well done. Thank you.

So for you, I went a very, very different route. The movie we are talking about today, The Deep Blue Sea, is in a constant search engine optimization battle with another film titled The Deep Blue Sea. That movie is a very silly horror film about sharks, who the headliner of the movie is none other than Mr. Thomas Jane. Thomas Jane, I was going to say, not Samuel L. Jackson. I think that one is... No television, so no hung.

I think that one is just deep blue sea, but yes. Yes. Rather than the... Correct. No definite article. Okay. So no hung, no arrested development guest appearance. No 61 where he's in a television movie where he plays Mickey Mantle.

What's that? Tom slash Thomas Jane. I'm going to say deep blue sea is one of them Correct Okay He had a weird little moment there He's in Boogie Nights for like half a second But it's like truly half a second

So I'm gonna put a pin in that There's definitely He's in the cocaine sequence right He's at Malina's house Yeah He's one of the people that Malina terrorizes Yes he's the one who like brings them there

Okay no He's like, there's definitely a movie or two where he's like one spoke of a love triangle or something like that. And I can't think of it now. Oh, is The Mist one of them? The Mist is one of them. Okay, so I'm missing two. All right. Tom Jane, Tom Jane.

Steve holds. Oh, come on. on Thomas Jane. Is he in like ghost ship? Or am I just conflating aquatic horror? I do not believe he is in ghost ship, but I will check. Is that a guess?

No, he's not in ghost ship. Boogie Knights. Boogie Knights is good. Really? Oh, wow. Okay. All right. I will say that Ghost Ship is not a guess because he is not in it.

Yeah. All right. Thomas Jane. Isn't he, is, he's in Wonderland, I think, right?

The John Holmes movie, that's a guess. Because if it's not that, well, it's incorrect. He, as a guess, it is incorrect.

I do not see him credited. Maybe I'm just conflating that with Boogie Nights as well. Uh, uh, Oh. Oh, he plays Mickey Mantle in 61. It's a sports thing.

Yes. I've never seen it. Yes. I will also give you the, I think the love triangle, even though it's not a love triangle that you're thinking of, and it's not in his known for, is the sweetest thing. I think that is probably true. A romantic comedy that I used to be obsessed with. That's the raunchy girls on the road romantic comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right. I'm going to burn again. Yes, and just say 61, even though that's not a... All right, then you're burning your guess. Your year is 1998. Okay. So right before Deep Lee... He is billed as Tom Jane.

Yeah. Is he a lead in this movie? Definitely not. Okay. 98. Is it like... Real question mark of who the lead of this movie really is. Okay.

Is it a movie I've seen? I think you've seen this. No, you've seen this. This is an incredible movie Oh, okay 98 What are my 98? Very, very big cast

Which is maybe why he's not coming out to you American American movie Big cast, but not like saving Private Ryan Definitely not saving Is it the thin red line? It's the thin red line I shouldn't have given you that

No, it would have been my next guest. It would have absolutely been my next guest anyway. In fact, it should have been my first guest because, of course, that makes a total lot of sense that he's in the Thedron line. Listeners, if he actually is one of the potential leads of that movie, don't yell at me. I don't remember anyone in that movie.

I just remember thinking that that's... I think your leads in that movie are Ben Chaplin and Jim Caviesel, I'm pretty sure. Well, it's definitely not Adrian Brody. It's definitely not Adrian Brody. Right, yeah. I always remember George Clooney in the movie because it's like Clooney His one scene is like at the very end of the movie

I know Nolte's in a good amount of the movie I don't know it's been so long it's been so long Catch me on the right day and I say it's the best Malik movie All right Yeah all right Well done, we did it We did it, it's done That is our episode if you want more This Head Oscar Buzz

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Yeah, letterboxed and Twitter at Joe Reed Reed spelled R-E-I-D. And I am also on Twitter and letterboxed at Krispy File. That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Meevis for their technical guidance, and Taylor Cole for our theme music.

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