This Had Oscar Buzz - 261 – Hereditary

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

Happy Halloween, listeners! Naturally, this week we are returning to the shallow well of horror films that made it into the Oscar hunt with a recent highly debated and lauded terrifier. In 2018, Ari Aster made his feature debut at Sundance with Hereditary, the story of a family invaded from within by a demon worshipping cult. … Continue reading "261 – Hereditary"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melan Hack, Millen Hack and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh. She wasn't altogether there. At the end. I don't like this.

Dad, I don't like this. What's happening? Don't you ever raise your voice in me? I am your mother. Mom, what's happening? Make it stop. Make it stop. I just don't want to put any more stress on my family.

Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast flashing side butt and hip. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are. here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with my king of hell. Chris File. Hello, Chris. Joe, I'm very sorry for the sacrifice that I have made for us. It will all be worth it in the end. You will understand. How many times have you seen hereditary now that you're counting this latest one? Maybe like, uh, this was probably my third or fourth watch. It's either my third or fourth watch myself

Every time I see it I learn more about the plot Which I like Like I get a little bit more of a little inkling About what's going on I don't know if I was just more Attuned If I could get visual information

Better Pre-pandemic But Were you more confused? Yeah, no, no, no No, no I feel like When this movie came out

Everyone was like I don't get it what the hell was going on? I was like, it's all right there. You just pay attention. Oh, I got it. Did you not get to read that whole letter in the 10 seconds that it was on screen?

Because it's all right there. It's the whole plot. The movie opens with an obituary. The grandmother is the main character. She kind of is the main character. No, she's the main character. She's the orchestrator of all of this. But there are details you pick up with subsequent viewings

that make the whole thing richer. I understood, like, the thing. I got the whole payment thing. But, like, I remember how, to explain to people that the explanation for everything is in that letter or the note or whatever to her daughter. That she finds in the book. Yeah. Yeah. Like you align that with the pictures of what's happening with her and Aunt Dowd throwing a coin party. And it's like, you never throw me a coin party, Chris. You call yourself my friend. And yet you have never in your life thrown me a coin party

where people just sort of drop coins on my face. Well, Joe, the thing is, if we're going to have a coin party, it's a huge commitment because you are essentially committing to have children and to, like, raise children who would have children? Whose children would then host the King of Hell? I get it, I get it. Until you have a male in the family. Right.

Because payment needs a male host. Right. Payment, by the way, is very... I'm not throwing you a coin. coin party because neither of us want to have children so fine i would have to accept and not be mad at you for changing your mind i want you i want to have a coin party without having children the same way i want to have a wedding reception without getting married yeah you want to pull the carrie bradshaw i do getting married to herself i don't having a coin party to yourself i do not sympathize or align with carrie bradshaw on

But the idea of why should just the people who decide to get married get free shit from their friends to help furnish their home, I very much align with. So I am... That's a Miranda thing to say. Why? To be the pragmatic aspect of it rather than Carrie just being the like, I deserve things because I'm pretty? Like, yeah. No, no. That's not what... Okay, fine.

We can't get into a sex-in-a-city conversation. In the hereditary episode? I'll throw you a coin party if you want to have a coin party. Where are you registered at this coin party? Oh, God. Where does one register for a coin party? You register at that store. The Denver Mint.

I'm registered at the Denver Mint, and I would like 50 cent pieces and dimes. Those are my preferred coins. So, sacca joeia dollars, hit me up. If you have a saccageoia, please, we'd been through this in previous parties. You have to get those converted ahead of time for the party. It does not work if you are trying to get your progeny to be the host for a demon. Thank you. That's a good... Get those coins converted. I will also accept tunis though and just go across the border and convert them into American currency. I understand why people get frustrated

by this movie in terms of not understanding what's going on. Because, like, I think Ariaster wants an obsessive audience that pays so much attention. It's the same thing with Midsomar, too. And I think that's why I kind of like those two of his movies. I think Mitzamar is much more straightforward, though. Or not straightforward. Hereditary is straightforward. The thing with hereditary is, though, is, like, you're expected to know.

And, like, I think you can make it through this movie and just sort of like get the general gist and you're good like at some point it's just like Tony Collette's cutting her head off like of course she is but it's like the like what is the like weird laser light thing that passes through people or like

what does the clucking entail like I truly ritual I think they're rich rituals in some way and there also it's just like oh that's payment shit you know I mean, it's just like, if you don't understand something, it's probably Payman, up to his tricks.

Payman's up to his tricks, just like God's up to his tricks at the holidays. Shout out to Matt Rogers in his new album. Okay. I'm excited to talk about this movie. I'm very excited to talk about this movie. Yeah. It's our annual spooky season entry. We tend to try and do...

We decided this is an annual thing. Yeah. Well, and picking through and finding a movie. that is both legitimately scary and also legitimately had some kind of awards buzz is tricky. And so we like to

answer that challenge. And this definitely counts for both of them. I also feel like for as much as it's going to be annoying, Chris, I want to commit ourselves to having the elevated horror conversation finally in this episode. Gird your

loins. We're removed enough from the conversation being annoying. I think it's somewhat taken for granted. But I think to talk about this movie, you have to have that conversation. You have to. Especially for our purposes of this podcast,

I think we are the most obligated to talk about the elevated horror thing. Because like that's sort of what people are talking about. When people who are annoyed about movies like putting on airs or whatever, I think people are talking about, oh, you want your movie to get an Oscar

nomination. And we'll talk about it. Um, but I genuinely, I love this movie. So I'm, I'm really excited to sort of get into the ins and outs of it. And I think you enjoy this movie, right? I enjoy this movie quite a bit. I, I will say, wow, I think you've soured on Ari this year because of Bo. I, I am so happy that he got that movie out of his system. Um, I, what I was going to, what I'll say is while I am quite pro on this movie, I absolutely understand anybody's opinion thoughts on this movie across the spectrum. Okay. I will rely on you to, to provide that to me because I kind of, I, I was trying to cast around earlier and I don't think I gave people enough time to respond to me.

I do want to understand what it is about Ari Aster that make some people like just hate him. You know what I mean? Like beyond just the fact that like, oh, that movie didn't work for me, whatever, whatever. It's the same thing with I don't understand the people who are like me jerk anti A24. Like I don't get it.

I don't know what kind of impulse is. I think that is just a symptom of being too online because in a way they can also say. seem like a two online marketing, you know, a house, aside from a production studio. I'm just so happy that an indie studio knows well enough to market itself well so that it doesn't fucking die. You know what I mean?

And it still might die. 824 still might end up either selling itself or, like, redefining itself into oblivion with this new, I didn't freak out as much when they had the thing about 824 is going to start. what was the what was the actual wording they're looking for i don't even think the words ip were used it was i yeah but but that was the that was the interpretation somewhat of the gist but like people took it to mean they're going to be making superhero movies which i mean and i don't think they kind of did make a superhero movie with everything everywhere all at once

it plays like one but like that's not sure but like but that's sort of what i'm talking about if they're going to do that they're going to do it their way and like everything everywhere all at once for a superhero movie is not the thing that people hate about superhero movies, right? You know what I mean? It's like, I think people expecting them to all of a sudden become just another cookie cutter, same old, same old, are maybe people catastrophizing a little bit too much. The thing is, they do make a range of movies. They do.

You look at their movies this year alone. Like, they, you know, lost however much money they did on. Bo is afraid. but they're also releasing Zone of Interest. They're also releasing Past Live. They do make a range of

product unlike a lot of other places anymore. So that I think is commendable. I also think it's commendable regardless what anyone thinks about any of these movies. They can make an uncut gems and it makes $50 million at the box office.

They can make hereditary and it makes $50 million at the box office. They make ladies. it makes that money. So it's like there's a range in like the success of their movies but like some of their this was their highest grossing movie

at the time and like I think their financial success whereas like we shouldn't be like money matters but like it is significant. Yeah we should be like money monster George Clooney's show on money months. Look at

824's 2023 though and this is sort of just like it's partial but Like, Kelly Reichardt's showing up. Ari Aster's boy, but was afraid. Nicole Hollifson,ers, you hurt my feelings. Celine's songs past lives. Oh, the horror movie talked to me that I still haven't seen. That you hated.

Dix the musical, which just came out, which you just saw. Redacted. Priscilla upcoming, all Dirt Roads Tastes of Salt, upcoming. scenario upcoming, zone of interest, upcoming, Iron Claw upcoming. That's a fucking interesting year. At the very least, that's an interesting and varied year. So you're incredibly right. You've got comedies in there and dramas and horror and, like, talky indie stuff and more, like, aesthetically concentrated indie stuff, like a Sophia Coppola movie.

You've got Autour stuff. you've got international stuff you've got you know and even in terms of just like release stuff the fact that they you know some of these went the festival route and some of these went you know sundance to a spring opening

and like whatever their confidence in the Iron Claw to open it on December 22nd without putting it through the festivals I'm crossing my fingers that that's the right thing to do and I'm crossing my fingers that it means something because you know how much I love Sean Durkin and Sean Durkin doing a movie

about the von eric family of professional wrestlers is like so pointed toward me you know what i mean that like i will be very disappointed like a sean durkin movie i will say it didn't but that made me more interested because i'm like i i really don't think he would have not made a sean durkin movie so like it's there it's going to be there right yeah it's it's lurking and i don't know i'm excited all right loop it back to hereditary and what you were saying in terms of the reception of this movie While I would say I understand all responses to this movie across the spectrum, I get it. I also feel like, across the spectrum, this is also a movie that everyone is annoying about in the way that, like, what you were saying, too, that it's just like, people hate this movie so much. And then there's those people who loved this movie were loved it too much for this movie.

And everyone's annoying about this movie. but it's also a movie I like. I'm so much more I lend so much more leeway to people being annoying about a thing that they genuinely loved. Whereas it's something

It's not true because when it's a pop girlie it annoys you. Yeah, but I don't think I don't always think that that's genuine. I think a lot of that is performative. Okay, okay.

I do. I do. I'm sorry. No, no, I believe you, I believe you. But also, music and movies are two separate things to me. I'm not, I'm, you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I love movies. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Movies are a different thing. And then you're right, there are, there are certain people who are annoying in their love of certain movies. But I do feel like that always comes across to me as not genuine and performative. And with hereditary, I don't know. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe I'm just like writing it a permission slip because I liked it so much. But, It's also sometimes, like, because of course we're going to talk about Tony Collette and Tony Collette's performance in this movie, there's a certain way that, like, people who, like, scream from the rooftops about this performance. Yeah. Make it just about screaming. Yes. And I think there's a lot of other layers to this performance.

Yes. I agree with that. I agree with that. And I think, you know, there's something about her performance in this movie that, like, this is a performance. who just like gets it and gets what this is supposed to be and yeah uh just the levels of it the lack of reality that this is supposed to be like generally takes place inside a dollhouse the whole thing takes place inside a dollhouse yeah it is uh i don't know this is it's the skinamer ink universe if this movie takes place inside the skinner ink universe it's more opera than it

is realistic drama. The thing that I talked about, about the things that you get out of this movie seeing it a third or fourth time or whatever, this viewing, her performance in particular, took on a very specific flavor where I really locked into the infantile nature of Annie as a character. I'm like, she's so immature.

She's such a child in the way she... Along with Alex Wolf, too. Well, that's the thing. And especially when the two of them are interacting together, she's such a child in the way that she, like, will go back and forth with him or like, you know what I mean? And they'll just sort of like, we're in the way where she's like, she'll be like, the thing where she builds the diorama of Charlie's death location. And Gabriel Byrne walks in and he's like, what the fuck? And she's like, what? This is a neutral P-O-V.

It's just how it happened. And it's like you are being a child about this. You are trying, you know what I mean? And the argument, the one that everybody clips and I've seen at least one drag queen lip sync to, where she's talking about, I'm your mother, that whole thing. And the funniest line in that is when she goes, and all I get is that fucking face on your face. And like, that's something that a child would say. You know what I mean? It's like, it's somebody who doesn't know, like,

has enough of a vocabulary to come up with a better word than that fucking face on your face. Every time, on this rewatch, every time that Alex Wolf cried and he did that, like, literal, like, 18-month-old cry. Yes. Sobs on his father's shoulder. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where it's just like, you look at, like, a niece or nephew, and you are like, you are fake crying right now. He does that. And it's so funny. That's the thing about this. We're going to talk about Alex Wolfe.

We're going to talk about Alex Wolf later on. I genuinely think it's one of the best performances of that year, and there was no way he was getting even close to anything of, like, a nomination. And it's too bad, because he fucking rules in this movie. What was striking to me, aside from that and the comedy of their childishness in this movie, with Annie on this watch is how she has everything completely wrong

at all times. And she's like, I'm the only one who can fix this. I know what's going on. I figured it out. She says that. But she doesn't know what's going on. She has it all wrong.

And as it progresses, she has it wrong in a way that she has been led down a path to believe something is right. So that basically the, you know, Coven can kill her. I'm watching the current season of American Horror Story for work, which is a very frustrating experience.

You don't say. Well, I am less of a knee-jerk hater of both American Horror Story and Ryan Murphy than most people, so like take this with, you know, all that due context. This season is particularly frustrating. I've been a fan of Emma Roberts in the past, and I don't want to be the person who, like, all of a sudden has decided that she's a bad actor because she's been revealed as a bad person with the whole thing with... We knew all of that, too, is the thing. Did we? We did.

When? I remember, I remember when she got the domestic abuse charges against him. Oh, right, with Emin Peters. I forgot about that. I don't think I really looked into that that much. Oh, well, yes. And then there's the stuff with Angelica Ross, too, and that's... That's the thing that I'm talking about that, like, came out just as this season of American Horror Story was premiering.

So it's like, I have liked, I've loved Emma Roberts in the past on American Horror Story. I think she's really bad this season. I think Matt Zucre as her husband is really bad. I think, I know no one's going to believe me because people just want to, like, pop-timism Kim Kardashian into the Pantheon or whatever. But, like, Kim's awful. And so that's- Yeah, the clip I saw going around that one day of how she. She's like, you need to get a Gotham award, speaking of which we'll be talking about the Goths.

We will. I was like, I have very knee-jerk resistance when people are like, this was just made for the memes and such. When I saw that, I was like, no, this is the first thing that I have seen that this was made for me. There is a holistic, and I may end up writing about this, there's a holistic angle to the way that this season of American Horror Story talks about award season that I think is worth talking about because they are either being. incredibly silly and stupid, or they're being, like, very, like, harshly comedic about it. And it's one of the two, and I haven't quite decided. But anyway, all the stuff that's happening on the periphery of the season of American Horror Story is really good and funny.

I love Deborah Monk and Julie White getting to have, like, an entire scene where they just sort of, like, info dump, but, like, in a really interesting way. Wow. But you really just said in, like, 10 words or less, something that might actually get me watch this is what I'm saying but this is this is the classic Ryan Murphy thing but regardless so the thing that I was going to say that pulls it into hereditary is uh Hallie Pfeiffer is writing this season rather than Ryan Murphy they've they got one writer to write every single episode and the whole thing is based on a book so it's a really sort of I think not great a mishmash of Ryan Murphy influences

and also like a primary source and also somebody else adapting that primary source there's a lot of like, what's going on here? Whose voice are we listening to? But there's such a strong and unsubtle believe women theme to the season because the whole thing is like, it's like a Rosemary's baby riff. She's pregnant and nobody believes her when she says somebody is following her. And nobody believes her when she says somebody like, you know, did this procedure on her that made her lose the baby.

And then she thinks she's still pregnant and nobody believes her then. And it turns out she is. And so the whole thing is very like, all capital. believe women. This show is about how you should believe women. Sure, sure, sure. Hereditary is a movie about the opposite. Hereditary is a movie about you should not

believe this woman because everything she says is wrong at all times. If we're talking about theme, this is where I get on my soapbox and like, it's like, well, if Chris thinks this movie is about this, of course Chris loves this movie. This movie

is about the toxicity of the nuclear unit and the suburban family unit because this is a movie that in metaphorical terms says your entire life is planned out for you there is nothing you can do to stop what your life is going to be because generations before you have decided what your life is

and that's what your life is just going to be you can't avoid it and... It is. That is what this movie is saying. And he has said that. Ariaster has said that. That essentially it's like, this is a horror movie about a sacrifice being told from the POV of the sacrificial lambs. And there's just like, there's absolutely, if they weren't, if they weren't going to get Payman into Peter one way, they would have done it another way, right? They tried to get Annie's brother when he was a kid, and that didn't work. So then, like, they tried to get it to Peter, but she wouldn't let her mother near Peter when Peter was a kid. so like plan B was Charlie and that was imperfect but whatever and they decided no we're going to try and figure out a way now to get payment from Charlie into Peter and it was just going to happen one way or another there was really nothing any of them could do to stop it and you're right like that is that interpretation of this is a suburban home I mean affluent suburban in they live it's said in like Utah or something they live so far from everywhere else the when

Pete when Peter has to like drive away from the party to drive Charlie to the hospital and he makes that like turn off of this like dust road where this house like where the fuck was this house party in the middle of the goddamn desert and yet his family lives in the middle of the woods where also there is like nowhere around them there is but like mountain desert woods sure but like I don't I don't think it's suburbs it's more just like they live in a universe where no other houses kind of exist. Look, the only other houses you ever see her when she goes to, to, um, what's Ann Dow's, Joan, when she goes to Joan's house. You know, when you, like, step outside of the house in Beetlejuice and it's just the desert and there's a sandworm. Yes. That's where they live. They live that in a real world version. 100%. 100%. And it's also, like, you mentioned, like, it's all set in a dollhouse. Like, it truly is. Like, her children and her grand, or her child, I guess. We only see one of her children. Her child and her grandchildren

are her little dolls to play house with. And, you know, it's the idea that... And yet she doesn't seem to... I mean, this becomes text later on in the movie. She doesn't seem to want them. She doesn't seem to want... Even Charlie, who, like, she loses her mind when Charlie dies. And she's like, she's so angry at Charlie all the time

when Charlie's alive. She gets mad when she leaves the house. She gets mad when she has a chocolate bar. She tries to, like, force her to go to this, high school party where she knows there's going to be, like, drinking or whatever, why the fuck would she want Charlie to go there other than to get her out of the house so she can be alone to do her little miniatures or whatever? Like, she's kind of a... I don't want to say like she's an awful mother because, like, that's a rubric that I don't think needs to apply

to a movie like this. But, like, she's clearly somebody who, like, does not need her, need or particularly seem to want her children around her to make her happy. She even says at one point that her mother made her have children. Which it's like, How, like, truly physically, how is that possible? I don't know about your screening of this movie, but I remember so vividly, and I'm almost certain I saw a press screening of this movie. First, my very first screening was a press screening. When she says, I never wanted to have you, and she then claps her hand over her mouth as soon as she says it, like, I can't believe that escaped my mouth or whatever. That was the biggest laugh line of the entire movie, because it's so funny, the way she just, like, blurts it out like that.

And it's so blunt, but it's like, it's the thing we're all sort of thinking. I saw it, I saw it in a press screening, and then I went back and saw it. When I went back and saw it with, like, a paying audience that was mostly empty, it was a lot of older people, I mean, I saw it in a matinee, maybe that's what it was. Are you sure this wasn't a cult of pavement worshippers? You know, now that you mention it, they were all naked and just, like, standing around the perimeter of the screening room? Staring at you and smiling for some reason? That's the worst one.

When did horror movies just decide that the scariest thing in the world is just a naked guy? Like, I don't know, but like it works in this movie. Like, it's not, to me, it's not the nudity. Well, it is. They're like smiling. They're smiling. But it's also this idea. And there have been things written recently about like after Barbarian and after, what was the Mnite Channel?

It follows. There's a naked guy and it follows. It follows the visit. the M. Night Shyamla movie, The Visit. All of these movies have the sort of like the horror of the elderly, especially female body, but also like male body.

But in this movie in particular, it's just that like people are just at the periphery when you didn't realize. Like there are shots in this movie. There's a naked guy in the woods in one of the establishing shots of the house.

There's so, it's not just one. Chris, go back and look at that shot again. Pull and like, it's almost like looking at a magic eye painting and let your eyes unfocus. They're everywhere in that shot. There's a shot when he goes up into the attic towards the end. Before anybody jumps out at him, there's like a naked person in the background of a shot. There are people like, it's like the, it's also like the fact that that was the other great thing about the first time I saw this movie was the shot of Tony Collette on the ceiling. Yes, the same story.

First of all, the naked guy in the woods, I was the only one who saw. because I full, like, gasp, and people were like, what? I was like, there's a naked guy. Yes. But the shot of Tony Colette in the corner, the waves that went through... Yes, it's great. Like, a crowd of 20 people. I saw it, like, first, and people, you know, like, you know, when you're paying attention

in a horror movie and people just jump because you jump and they don't know why we're jumping. And then there would be, like, another person saw it, and then another, and then another person's It was, yeah. Hello, my darling children, who I would never harm in any way. We interrupt. Louie, oh, Louie, Louie, can you draw something? Louis, will you show us that you're a ghost? Louis, Louis, will you bring me some coins?

The way Ann Dow says Louis is not unrelated to the way she says Hulu, so truly, uh... Louis, bring me some coins. Bring me good familiars. Um, okay. We interrupt this, uh, this hereditary discussion to talk to you about the Vulture movie Fantasy League, which at this point is swinging like a, like a satanic meeting up in the treehouse to crown payment. We are rocking and rolling.

There's a lot of points on the board. There are multiple box office hits. That's true. Marty's got a hit. Uh, uh, Taylor's got a hit. we're rocking and rolling. Freddy's got a hit. You know.

Are those numbers? I haven't looked at those numbers. It's five nights at Freddy is doing well, despite its awful rate, awful. A wild opening, like 75 million plus. Whoa. Well, that will offset the fact that I've seen nobody give it more than one star. I know. I was going to bring up the letterbox logs.

I'm like, no one likes this movie. People hate this movie. Granted, I've, I mean, like, apparently the target audience for this movie is, is like, not just like Gen Z, but like 18-year-olds. So I don't follow many of them on Letterbox because I would feel like a creep if I did. Deliver me. Is this or is this not also available on Peacock like right now? It is.

It is. Which was the plan initially, like when they struck the deal for the movie. Like, this is just one of those things that it's like sometimes there's these lingering movies that. And, you know, once it's in a contract, a contract that she signed maybe years ago, it's like, you know, get it out of it. But, yes. And apparently, it's not, the analysis I was reading on Deadline Don't Kill Me was, that's more expected to, like, hurt second weekend than first weekend. Because everybody that's like the diehards for it are going to go and show up to the theater. It's a good opening.

And then, like, Jesus. You and I, who didn't really know what the hell this thing. was, you know, two months ago. I'm literally like, I'd like to see it because I have nostalgia for Chucky Cheese. Like, could not be more of an old. That's fine. We had a knockoff Chucky Cheese called Major Magics that we would go to. That was essentially the same thing. Animatronic animals in a band, video arcade, ski ball, which is exactly what I flocked to, and that was fine by me. So good for that. All right. So Vulture Movie Fantasy League, we got, like Chris said, we got some box office stuff. We got some, uh, uh, sorry, one second. I'm looking at the wrong thing.

Vulture Movie Fantasy League. We got some box office numbers. We got some Gotham Awards, rewards numbers. So it's kind of hitting all quadrants at this point, or at least most of them. So box office this weekend, Killers of the Flower Moon opened up to 23 million, which is pretty good for a three and a half hour movie directed straight for adults about making you feel bad. And that's not about making you feel bad, but like if I'm going to be glib about it. It's about complicity. It is. It's so good. I just saw it. So I just saw it. So I I'm kind of writing on a high of Killers of the Flower Moon. Obviously, finished second to the Ares Tour, which picked up another 30 or so million last week,

pushed it north of the $100 million threshold, so it got that bonus, and it's a points bonanza. Eras, as of last week's newsletter, had gotten 229 points total. But Killers of the Flower Moon is off to a very good start. and considering that it's also going to be a major player in award season, anybody who drafted that movie is probably feeling very good and feeling like... I thought you had some good perspective about its points tally in the newsletter last. Comparing it to what the Irishman did, I went through and I did a little exercise if you subscribe to the movie Fantasy League newsletter. I went through and I tallied up all the points that the Irishman did,

would have accumulated had the Fantasy League been in this particular point structure back then. And that's a movie that did not have any box office because it was Netflix. So just awards wise. And with the caveat that the Irishman got blanked at the Oscars, like did not win a single Academy Award, it still would have pulled you 950 points. So like... It's conceivable that, you know, it would have had a higher buy-in, you know, I think the buy-in for Flower Moon would be similar to what the Irishman would have had that year. Right. So I think if you're, had I drafted Killers of the Flower Moon, one of my worries would have been is, oh, is this just going to crater at the box office like the last couple big Spielbergs have? And that didn't happen. So like, that's hurdle one, because there is the only real way to keep this movie out of, I think, the best picture lineup is if it attracts the same. stench of failure and it has now cleared that hurdle. That is not going to happen for

Killers of the Flower Moon. So we are, all systems go, I think, for a Best Picture nomination and we'll see where it goes from there. This point, with some things I haven't seen, obviously, you've seen more than I have. I hope it wins. It's very good. We'll save conversation about the movie, though, because we may be talking about it in one hour Patreon call-ins. Anyway, That's true. All right. And also, we'll end up talking about this a lot throughout the rest of Oscar season. Yeah, we're going to have a lot to say, but I also think, you know, people will continue to have a lot of things to say about this movie.

So the other big points getter this week was through the Gotham Awards. So a lot of the smaller movies, this is, this was a good day for a lot of $5 buys. If you bought all of us strangers or 1,000 or passages, all of those movies would have only, cost you $5, and they got pretty good points return already. You're already well on your way to getting some good return for those movies. So the Gotham's split up their best feature category between domestic feature and international feature, but for international feature, they count UK stuff. So like all of us strangers is a international feature. Also counting for international feature are poor things and anatomy of a fall and the zone of interest. And also,

a movie called Totem that I don't know if I had heard of but I believe that was a Berlin movie the indicator that it was going to be the Mexican submission I believe it's the Mexican submission it ended up being

one of the sneak previews at Telluride this year Oh, okay and then in regular best feature you have past lives and passages Kelly Reichert's showing up which was a nice economical $2 buy so if you bought showing up

for $2, you got a whopping 30 points already off of that, which is some really good point per dollar. 1,001, as I mentioned, the Sundance Champion shows up here. And reality, which I thought was an HBO

movie, but I guess the Gotham's... It was, but it was independently produced before HBO bought it. It premiered at Berlin, and I believe also played South by, but HBO snatched it up. Yeah. So, okay. Well, I guess top line notes, all of us strangers picks up the most nominations.

It gets 50 points on the day. So, like, all of us strangers is kind of the big winner. But, like, past lives in 1001, each get you 40 points. Zone of interest got you 35. Showing up in passages got you 30. So there's a lot of good stuff here. It was a good day for my team. All about one of my drafts earned some points that day.

Is that what was your only non-point score? Boring the Heron. Oh, sure, which is going to do fine for you. It's going to do fine. I need to bring up the thing I was pissy about, which was... Which also is why all but one of... Because this movie is in my team. So they nominated 10 performances in lead and 10 performances in supporting.

And some really good ones are in there. For as baffling as I found, Origin, I thought Angenu Ellis was great. So I'm glad that she got nominated. Some contenders are up there, Andrew Scott, for all of us. Strangers. Greta Lee for past lives. Jeffrey Wright for American fiction. Kaylee Spaney for Priscilla. You also got Tiana Taylor for a thousand and one. Okay. Here's what I'm saying to you, Chris. This is maybe bad discourse. This is maybe me indulging in bad discourse, but I'm just going to say it anyway. There's every opportunity for people in Hollywood to start

the same exact kind of grassroots campaign for Tiana Taylor that they did for Andrea to Riseboro. I meet. That's all I'll say. Listen, we are a very, very pro Tiana Taylor podcast here. I hope all listeners, if we haven't banged the drum for this movie enough in

recent episodes and Batrion episodes. At this point, I cannot remember where we're talking about things. It might even be episodes that are in the future because these past two weekends have just been a marathon. Anyway, go watch a thousand and one on Amazon Prime.

But if the same people that, you know, grassroots the Andrea Riceboro nomination also want to support another movie that is not getting the kind of infrastructure to get nominations, find your screener of 1001 and maybe get to work on that. I also love that showing up got as many nominations as it did because that's a good movie. Should have gotten more. I would have loved a Hong Chow nomination in supporting because I love her and that. All right. So on to the supporting nominations, which Juliet Benosh and The Taste of Things Shout out. Apparently, it's a supporting

performance. Shout out George from Minneapolis who got at us on our on our mailbag line. Some interesting and good ones. Love a Rachel McAdams nomination for Are You There? God, it's me, Margaret. Charles Melton for May December,

awesome. Divine Joy Randolph and the holdovers, awesome. Claire Foy and all the strangers. Very good. We are going to have that conversation that I promised. Once you see that movie, we're going to have a conversation about it. Penelope Cruz and Ferrari, which I find a little funny. Because everybody I talk to is like, I'm like, Penelope Cruz and Ferrari, is that a real thing? And they're like, no.

So I don't know. And then the thing that sort of burned my britches, which was they nominated Ryan Gosling for Barbie. Now listen, Barbie rules. Ryan Gosling rules. Ryan Gosling as can in Barbie rules. What the fuck are the Gotham's for if they're nominating Barbie? Take it up with the nomination jury for this category. No. No. I'm taking it up with you right now, who always defends the Gothams when I complain about the Gotham's.

I can't defend the decision to allow studio movies in there. Is this not them being as Craven as the Critics' Choice always are? I mean, as Covents' Choice, I don't know. I think if this is not celebrating independent it filmed, they really need to be firm in what their identity is supposed to be rather than... You can't even say New York taste because their juries aren't all New York critics. Right. So... At this point, they're just another group sort of like yammering for attention.

They took away the budget cap so that they could, you know, do something like this this year. And it's like, are you just trying to hop on to this Barbie Awards train that like Barbie's going to get nominated everywhere and you want into? do. It looks so desperate. It looks so pick me. Like, I hate to use, I hate to, I hate that term. But, like, it does sort of seem that way, right? It's like, oh, I hope Ryan Gosling shows up. But, like, can I mean, the strike's not going to be settled by the end of November. I don't enjoy this Ryan Gosling nomination from the Gothams. Let me be clear.

But I do, I do always like the Gothams because they do support a lot of these things like we've mentioned that may not even show up at indie spirits, you know, like... Okay, you always, you and I are a very interesting opposite ends, because whenever I say that very thing about the Independent Spirit Awards, you're like, but you can buy your way into it, and you can vote for whatever. But, like, indie spirits are inarguably a larger award show than the Goths are. But the Gothams do end up showing up for these, like, movies that, you know, even Indy Spirit doesn't end up nominating, which Indy Spirit is a jury nomination process, though I don't

think they really publish what their jury is. And then, yes, you can buy your way into voting for those awards. But the Indy Spirits will also end up nominating some things that the Gothams didn't. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's given to. It's given to. This is why I think, you know, it's better. It gets all of these movies more attention. It gives us an opportunity to say, hey, go watch a thousand and one. And who knows if a thousand and one will get a best feature nomination at Indy Spirits, you know? I hope so. But, like, there's also a lot of indie spirits favorites this year, some of which are nominated by the Gothams, like Kelly Reichart, Iris Sacks. But, like, Gotham's always,

they'll do something, like, throw a screenplay nomination at R-A, R-M-N, which is a great movie. And, like, that's cool. But all of the press coverage on this was about the Gosling nomination. And it's not like, I'm not going to wag my finger at anybody who did that, because, of course that's what they talked about. That's why the Gotham's nominated him. Like, that was the whole point to begin with. So, like, what good are your awards if they're just going to get swallowed up by the biggest movie of the year? I mean, I also think, my other thing is, like, Ryan Gosling isn't going to show up to these awards. Well, nobody is. At this point, the strike is still probably going to be going on. Because the Gothams are obnoxiously

early in the awards season. So for me, it might, that's why I would. wouldn't throw a vote around it because, like, the advocacy is a powerful thing, because it will put more eyes on something like a thousand and one or passages, you know? Think of, there's so many supporting performances in actual indies this year that could have gotten a nomination there. And it's just, Hong Chao, any of it, like, so many, so many. And it's, it's just, it's a bummer. It's a bummer.

Also, I mean, like, Ferrari is an independent movie in the way that Cloud Atlas is an independent movie. Sure, right. Also that. This is a movie with a massive budget. Also that was like independently financed. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I, that's not, that's not apples to orange because like, you know, Cloud Atlas eventually was distributed by Warner Brothers and like neon. It's not Warner Brothers even though they're amazing. Right. Right. And like they clone Tyrone as Netflix. And Netflix is also like sort of, as is like May December, I guess. So, um.

I mean, technically speaking, I, don't, I do think that Lionsgate produced, are you there? God, it's me, Margaret. I could be wrong. So, like, even that's not an independent production. But, like, then if you get into, well, is Lionsgate part of the studios? Or is Lionsgate, you know what I mean? Like, Lionsgate's kind of a tweeter. I do believe that they are part of the AMPTP, but they're just not considered a major studio anymore. Okay. I could be wrong there. Um, but, uh, anyway. All right. So, I love the Gotham's. Yeah, I know you do. Some of these nominations are weird.

They are. All right. One last thing, we did, I did say last week that we would talk about the leaderboard in the All of Us Gary's League, the Gary's specific part of the movie fantasy league. And now I'm pulling up the leaderboard. Nicole Kidman's divorce photos. You have been dethroned. We apologize. Sorry about your luck.

Your time will come again. Oh yeah, like these scores are going to fluctuate wildly. I would argue you really don't want to be ahead in this race. That's not a uniform rule for like years moving forward, but this year I don't think you want to be leading this early. Maybe not this early. Certainly not before Oppenheimer's gotten any awards points because they do feel like that's going to loom large.

All right, but anyway, congratulations. At this point goes to Team Slacker Millionaire, who with 478 points, is leading the All of Us Gary's League. Their roster, Kills of the Flower Moon, obviously, very big. And Taylor Swift, the Ares Tour, so they're cleaning up in box office. They've got poor things, which only got one nomination at the Gotham's, which is kind of interesting in international feature. But anyway, Priscilla showing up, so they got those nice, sweet showing. up points past lives also did well at the Gotham's zone of interest also did well at the Gotham's and then Paw Patrol the Mighty movie which was our very first box office champion of

this season so everything on slacker millionaires roster has gotten points in some way or another which is how you do it in the early part of the season to get your spot on the top of the list So also Ranked number 18 in the entire game We love seeing a Gary that highly ranked I'm looking at some of the other team names We shouted out last week Nicole Kinman's divorce photos love it

Benny Softie must be stopped A person after my own heart Honestly God bless God bless Let's see The eldest boy We love it

The Kendall Roy is officially a Gary. We always knew he would be. Sandra Huler-Eris Tor. I like that one. It's just going to be two hours and 45 minutes of her performing the greatest love of all. All right. But anyway, thanks to all the Garys who are participating, there's a ton of you. We are by far the biggest sub-league in the, and that does not mean.

in the We are a league of subs. I'm just saying we are by far the biggest mini league within the Vulture Movie Fantasy League. So Gary's out there, be proud, and we are showing up huge. So cannot thank you guys enough for that. That's pretty awesome. Anything else to say before we head on back to spooky payment? Team name, the Julia Ormond incident. I see you.

Fuck you. I love you. I love that. How dare you? Oh, my God. That's perfect. Are you kidding me? That's absolutely perfect. We'll shout out some more. Thank you for making that your team name. We'll shout out some more names as the season goes on. This will be very fun at Julio Hermann incident. All right, have fun with hereditary kiddos. We'll see you next week. Okay, we got to do the plot description because like we're a good half hour into this episode. And we're just like picking apart this whole movie at some point. This is going to be a wild one, you guys. Just just FYI. All right, I've got my stopwatch out. Chris, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description of the movie Hereditary? Joe is going to rain gold coins down while I stumble through a plot description of this movie. I, who am not a linear thinker, and this movie doesn't really reward linear thought.

This is going to be interesting. All right, we're going to be talking about the 2018 film Hereditary, written and directed by Ari Aster, starring Tony Colette, Alex Wolf, Gabriel Byrne, Ann Dowd, Millie Shapiro, a bunch of naked people. It premiered, world premiered on January 21st, 2018 at the Sundance Film Festival. It played South by Southwest, subsequent to that, and then opened in wide release on June 8th, 2018. Finished, I believe, it was in third place on the same weekend that Oceans 8 opened. But it ended up, like, doing pretty well for, especially for, it was like, it's, It either still is or was for a while A24's top box office success.

It was the top one. I forget if uncut gems past it, but obviously everything everywhere passed it. Right. Yeah, everything everywhere surpassed pretty much everything. All right, Chris, I've got my stop, watch out. 60 seconds to recap the plot of Hereditary. Are you ready? Sure.

And go. All right, so we open on the movie and we learned that the matriarch of a family has died. Her daughter, Annie, has a nuclear unit at home. Her husband is Gabriel Burns. She has her typical son, Peter, who has a crush on a girl, and then Charlie, the daughter who's awkward, a loner, et cetera. She does, like, taxidermy art. It's really weird.

Anyway, she eventually forces Peter to take Charlie to a party, and she has an allergic reaction and in the rush to get her to a hospital. She is decapitated by a pole. She has her head out the window. This creates a major schism in the family when it already was because of the death of the grandmother. Annie's been going to these, like, group therapy things, and then she meets Ann Dowd and is like, Ann Dowd's like, I'm grieving to come over. We're going to have a seance.

She has a seance, and it's actually working, and she, like, gets her son to show up. And then Annie's been freaking out, and then she's like, oh, I know how we're going to bring Charlie back. We're going to talk to her in a seance. and then a bunch of crazy shit starts happening, including nightmares for the whole family. More and more signs happen that Peter is kind of being possessed. Annie thinks that she can stop all of this. Meanwhile, the, like, possession keeps taking hold.

Gabriel Byrne goes on fire. And then she seemingly wants to attack and kill her son, Peter. They go into the attic, and she is there dismembering herself. and then he escapes, but then goes into the family treehouse, and his body is now taken over by the demon god, Payman, the end, Hail Payman. Hail Payman! 45 seconds over the allotted minute. I knew you were...

You could get into the particulars of all of the nightmarish things that happened, but really it's just an increasing possession coming down. Charlie was still alive at the 30-second mark. of your summary. So I was like... Table setting is important. When you got into the girl

that Peter had a crush on, I'm like, oh, he's done for it. This is... This is doomed. Okay, but okay, so even in your... Not to be like... I'm not going to... It actually happened.

We know this. It's fine. So Peter gets possessed because he jumps out of the attic window and maybe either like dies or like is unconscious for long enough

for Payman to, like you see it. You see it almost like a weird little like Tinkerbell effect where that like that sort of white laser light concentrates comes over him and just sort of has this like glowy orb that like settles into him. And it's like oh okay. Peter's gone.

Yeah. Peter's gone. Payman's there. And then from the moment he like gets up and ascends into the clubhouse he's payment. The other thing that I learned from reading sort of like supplemental, like, interviews and whatever, which, like, makes sense, and it's not something I didn't believe was true, but, like, I didn't really think about it this way, is that, like, Charlie apparently has been Payman since, like, birth. That, like, there's never really been a Charlie. Charlie's been, like, inhabited by Payman her entire life. That's

why... Well, when Peter is Payman, they say that they've corrected his female body. Yes. and the grandmother even told Charlie and the grandmother was close to Charlie that she wished that Charlie was a boy so like Charlie was supposed to be payment so no Peter so here's my best my best from the POV of what's her name Lee

the mother the Ellen Lee Queen Lee her so Ellen Queen of Queens. Our queen of coins. She was part of this cult from before the time she had children. She has a son and a daughter. She worships Payman. Payman, a very gender essentialist, king of hell, we should say, only wants a male host because, whatever, boys rule and girls drool. Because this takes place in the suburbs. It doesn't take place in the suburbs. He is the demon king of the dog. The suburbs. So Lee tries to, like, essentially, like, prep her son for inhabitation by payment.

Annie later, or in the movie, describes this as her brother was schizophrenic, and he killed himself. And in his suicide note, he blamed his mother for trying to put people in him, put things in him. Yes. And so then we can sort of interpret that, like, oh, she was trying to. trying to inhabit him with Payment. So that didn't work. Payman didn't want to be a girl,

so Payman didn't, so Lee didn't try to inhabit Annie with Payman. Annie has Peter, Annie has this very fraught relationship with her mother. Gabriel Byrne is like, no, I'm putting my foot down. Your mother is not allowed near Peter.

So with the mother not allowed near Peter, she wasn't able to like work her little tricks or whatever on Peter. And then when Annie has Charlie, That's when she relents and lets her mother back into her life. And her mother essentially, like, takes over the raising of Charlie. And by that point, the cult is like, we're not getting any younger here. We haven't gotten these wealthy coin deposits that Payman's going to give us if we don't make something happen.

So they're like, we'll just let Payman inhabit Charlie. And so Payman somewhat, I imagine, reluctantly inhabits Charlie. That's why Charlie's such a weirdo. That's why Charlie's decapitating birds and sewing birdheads onto other things. That's why she's always clucking. The clucking is like a, you know, a whatever, a receptor. And so finally, the Coven is like, Payman's not happy with us. We're not getting wealthy.

We're not, you know, getting good familiars or whatever, the thing that Ann Dow says at the end. So let's give Payman the kind of host that he wants. We want this to be a boy. Let's engineer this death of this child, which you can tell. by, like, the sigil on the telephone pole, which is, like, visible as you pass by the telephone pole, that, like, they engineer essentially Charlie getting beheaded, which is, like, pause for a second and just like, I'm not quite sure. That's a, that's a chain of events that happened real specifically between, like. They put the nuts and the brownie recipe. Well, but it wasn't the nuts. It was the teen chopping the nuts and then cutting the cake with the same knife that they chopped the nuts. Like, that's how. So, like, it's an intricate, whatever, but, like, we'll give the Coven credit. They got, so, like, they got Charlie dead, and then Payman is out on the lamb and, like, laser lighting around all the place.

And finally, can only inhabit the host when the host is essentially, like, debilitated or, like, depleted in some way. And so they, like, run Peter around ragged long enough to, like, have him inhabited by Payman, the end. I think how that goes. I love that you brought. the same energy to explaining all of the background of what is happening in this movie that you do explaining the career of an actress. Well, I was going to say a soap opera storyline, too. Or a soap opera storyline or, you know, the awards trajectory of a director's career.

Listen, Payman deserves to have his story told. All this to be said, I know that there are some listeners that just heard all of that and their minds are blown, just because I've had enough conversations about this movie that people don't even understand that the grandmother was in a coven. Sure. All the, what, I understand that it frustrates people that all of this information is obscured, but hiding in plain sight. It is hiding in plain sight. You can get it, like, you just have to sit with it for a while, you know what I mean?

You have to be an intensely, uh, you have to, A, beyond the movie's wavelength. Yeah. And you have to kind of submit to it in a way, but you also have to be a very, very attentive viewer. And I think your attentiveness to this movie depends on how much you enjoy what it's doing. But also, you can enjoy this movie without knowing all of those intricate details, right? You can enjoy this movie knowing just like, oh, the grandmother was into some weird occult shit. There's a demon.

There's a demon. Gabriel Byrne is like a therapist. Right. There's some kind of a demon that wants in on this family. And ultimately, like, and Ann Dowd, like, kind of does lay it out by then. She's like, hey, your payment. She calls him Charlie, by the way, at the end, which I think is, like, very interesting. She's like, your payment, you're the king of hell.

You're going to give us wealth and good familiars. Everyone here is naked, but me. I love that Ann Dowd is like, fellas, no. Ari, I'm sorry. I'm an Emmy winner. I'm not doing that. Let's talk for a minute about Antowden. Let's.

And out is so, okay, in a 2018 world, and out is so perfectly cast in this movie. Yes. Ariaster knew exactly what he was doing, putting her in this movie. And now I am tired of seeing her in these roles. Oh, interesting. By the time that I got to Exorcist Believer,

I was like, this is the laziest cast. Five years later, it's the laziest casting decision. Let's look at Ann Dowd's career trajectory. Things that I saw her in. She's absolutely, she's a Margo Martindale in this way, and the two of them are friends, and that makes a ton of sense. But she's absolutely one of those people who you go back and like, oh, you're there in Lorenzozozo and Philadelphia. And Garden State, I actually do remember her. She's Natalie Portman's mom, I believe, in Garden State.

she's in The Forgotten, she's in the Manchurian candidate, right? Yada, yada, yada, yada. All up until, she's in the informant, all up until compliance in 2012, which is when all of us, you know, awards freaks are made aware of her. And this is not even getting into like the eight bazillion different law and orders and X-5, like her television filmography is kind of amazing, because it's every, like, prestige procedural you've ever heard of, like, law and order multiple times, Chicago Hope, Providence, the X-Files, judging Amy, NYPD Blue, freaks and geeks,

third watch. E.R. Was she on ER? Touched by an angel. How was she not on ER is what I'm asking myself? She wasn't ever on ER, as far as I can tell from this list, which is kind of amazing. The Days and Knights of Molly Dodd. The Division. The Education of Max Bickford. only aired like four episodes, and she's on three of them. Like, that's kind of amazing. House, of course. She plays a mother superior on House.

How many different roles of these were nuns? Wait a second. She's a nun on that. She was a nun. She was a nun. She was a nun on Louis. She's a doctor in some of these. She's credited as a nurse in some of these.

But she's like consummate. like she's a it's the octavia spencer story right you know what i mean it's the margot martindale story so anyway compliance happens which we gotta do at this point we really do her character is she's a manager at a uh uh fast food place right yes and she gets a call from these essentially like awful pranksters who are trying to see how far they can push Pretending to be, like, investigators or something. Right. And trying to see how much they can get her to essentially, like, abuse this employee of theirs. She's incredible in it.

She mounts her own campaign for Best Supporting Actress because Magnolia Pictures doesn't have the money to do it themselves. Would love to see how close she got to a nomination in 2012 for supporting actress. but that like ups her profile enough that like then subsequent to that she's getting bigger roles she gets cast in the leftovers as patty levin who you know that's a you know now or a sudden we're getting into like the and dowd role right she's a cult she's a cult's leader ish on the leftovers she is a like evil functionary of the fascist regime on the the handmaid's tale. She wins an Emmy. She thanks Hulu. They're wonderful people there. What's the line? At Hulu. They do such wonderful work at Hulu. Hulu. Yeah, that's right. She says it like You-Hoo. It's Hulu. Yeah, she does Hulu. Like that. She's like, she's singing it.

What national treasure. Then what other roles are sort of like that? Hereditary is another big one. Collateral beauty, she's sort of like. Collateral beauty. She's like the paid investigator in collateral. beauty. He gets like run around town. We can't. We'll do it sooner or later.

But yeah, you're right. She's, this does feel like more and more like the Andowd role, where it's like more more sinister than she seems. She sort of comes across as the like, oh, you think she's this mild manner just like a middle to late aged woman. But like by this point, nobody's fooled by that because it's And out. you see her and your alarm bells go off and it's just like watch out well and she's not she's not evil in uh exorcist but like i guess to be clear about what my frustration is yeah it does feel like she's getting more and more typecast but as that typecast is taking root it feels like she's more and more boxed in and asked to be this like kindly soft spoken thoughtful looking at you with my chin slightly up I am out you watched you watch the leftovers right

no I should I think you would love the leftovers I think I would love the leftovers I just never watched it her character in that is interesting because like she gets to be she's like really I've seen the jiffs she's savage well like for the first whole season she doesn't speak of course because none of the guilty remnants speak. Right. And then she's, her character, without spoiling anything, sort of like takes a turn. And she's incredibly vocal in that second season. And so, yeah, you've seen the, we're all going to fucking die.

Let's go fucking die. Let's go fucking die. See, this is just what I want. I just want her, I want to see her as often as we already do, but give in more variety. Give her more variety. I agree. I do think she's incredible, though, in Hereditary. She's so funny. She's so fucking funny. She's so funny. Like, so unexpectedly funny. The seance scene is so funny. The degree to which Tony Colette is losing her shit,

and it's just like a warm, fuzzy, happy moment for Ann Dow. Well, and it's like, it's that, it's that exactly. It's, it's Ann Dowd being like, well, and first of all, how much of this, I mean, I guess it's real or like, whatever, It's like Payman, like, helping her play a trick or whatever. But however she's playing it, she's like, my darling grandson, can you write something for me? You're, that's, you did such a good job. And meanwhile, Tony Collette has this, like, rictus, like, a mask of death on her face, just being like, ugh. And then Tony Collette's finally, Tony Collette is finally just like, we need to stop.

And Ann Dow just goes, what? Like that? She's just like, like, what are you talking about? We're not stopping. It's so funny. Maybe the first scene of the movie. Well, no. I mean, there's Charlie's death, which requires Tony Colette to wail on screen for five minutes.

I really hope that she, you know, has... The way that whole thing is depicted, because first of all, the trailer for this, I only ever watched after I saw the movie. I remember, I literally... People talk about this. I literally did it. I remember walking out of, of theater one time when they started to play the hereditary trailer and, like, waited two minutes and then went back in so that I wouldn't see the hereditary trailer. I just looked away because I knew there wasn't, like, dialogue-heavy stuff.

The Sundance reactions were, like, try to go in knowing as little as possible, but then they were like, now here's all my thoughts on hereditary, and I was like, no, I don't want to, and I really, really, really wanted to try as much as possible to know very, very little going in. The TV spots were kind of unavoidable. And from the TV spots, I sort of got the impression, and I think this was the intent, that like something's wrong about Charlie, which by the way is correct. Like the TV spots are being honest. Like Charlie is possessed by the demon, but you expect that like it's going to be this sort of like, you know, the omen style, whatever, like evil child. something's up with this kid. And so the death of Charlie, as early in this movie as it comes,

is a genuine shock. But that whole way that it's filmed from the second they're in the car where she's like clawing at her throat and like writhing and whatever and she's choking to death. And you're scared for her and you're scared for Peter because it's going to be, you know it's going to be Peter's fault. Peter was just getting high. He went to this party and then like left his sister downstairs because she was too much of a hassle. and you know, like, you've already established that, like, his mother is a pitiless woman who will absolutely, like, never forgive him if something happens. So you're afraid for him for that. And then she sticks her head out the window, and you're like, you're so nervous.

You still don't think they're going to kill her. But you're just like, oh, my God, oh, my God. This is so tense. This is so tense. And then he swears. And then the shot of it where you do, like, I've never, when my friend and I, uh, we're younger, the one Halloween, you know that, like, the first Halloween where you're too old to trick-or-treat, so instead you decide to watch scary movies, and, like, we went and saw scary

movies, we sent his sister out to go get candy for us, to, like, get extra, like, trick-or-treat candy to bring it back for us. But we wouldn't go out trick-or-treating because we were too old and mature for that. So instead we stayed in. Oh, too mature. Too mature. You weren't too cool. You were too mature. We were trying to be too cool, but we were not cool. We watch misery. And so one of the things you do when you're a teenager to combat being legitimately scared in a thing is you either laugh at a scary movie or you, like, deconstruct it. And I remember, like, we slow-mo replayed the part where she hobbles him in misery, where you can watch the, like, the foot go to the side. And we also slow-mo replayed the part where she shotgun blasts Richard Farnsworth to death,

or, like, from behind, and you see the, like, explosion of his chest out through. So we, like, we slow-mo replayed that. We also slow-mo replayed the decapitation, the David Warner decapitation in the Omen. Oh, when his head is just, like, laterally twirling around. Yeah. So I remember doing both of those. I haven't done that with Hereditary because I'm not. out an adult and, like, I can just surrender myself to being scared by a thing without having

to, like, slow-mo replay it. But I imagine the slow-mo replay of Charlie getting decapitated and hereditary is fucking wild as shit. Because, like, he cuts away just too late for you to not know exactly what happened. And then you're just there on Peter's face. And it's horrifying. And it's sad. And you're so scared for him and you're so heartbroken for him. And you're so heartbroken for him. And you're just like, and then he drives away. And you're just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, don't do that. It's so much worse if you do that. And then he goes home. And then he goes to bed. And then that shot of him in the morning where you're fixed on his face and you hear Annie being like, I'm going to go out and like whatever. And you know what's coming. And the waiting to hear her react to it and not sure whether they're going to cut to her, like cut to garage or whether and he just keeps it on Peter's face and you hear her screaming and it's so it like goes continuously and then you get to the shot of her later on that day where she's just

like has been screaming crying all day and saying I don't want to live I just want to die it crawls through your body like the actual physical reaction of it is really really something else and that's filmmaking that's acting that's you know sound design so it's all of it. It's an incredible, incredible sequence. So at that point, then, Annie's off the reservation, and Peter is traumatized, and poor Gabriel Byrne is trying in vain to hold her together. Or Gabriel Byrne is doing his Gabriel Byrne things. Stop it. Just like yelling at them both at all times. Just like stop saying the most awful

things to each other. And like, he's so irrelevant to what's happening. I saw some people at the time complaining that, like, what is this character? What does he have to do? It's purposeful that he's irrelevant to what's happening and irrelevant to the movie. He can't do anything. Because he's also not a biological member of the family, which, like, is a thing. It's all about bloodlines, yes. In these, like, archaic, you must have children, you must bring descendants upon the family.

That is just like, well, you. you matter less because you're not of the family if you marry into it. Like, that is a thing in suburban culture. That is awful. I love you returning to this point again and again. This is fantastic. This is my brain when I watch this movie. But like, so then we start to get to the whole like Annie's.

And the other thing is now you're just sort of, you're waiting for the other shoe to drop, as is Peter. So we are kind of at this point, we see Annie more. But I think emotionally, we are never not with Peter for the rest of the movie because we were with him at this most horrific moment of his life. So, like, at all times, we are waiting for her to blow up at him as is he. And that's what gives us this dinner table moment where they're all, like, eating in silence and everything he does or, like, the small talk he tries to, like, make or whatever, she's sort of reacting in this just like, oh, like, I guess. This is one thing I was really struck on this rewatch that the time between Charlie's death and this dinner scene is not as long as you think it is. It's just that the time between those scenes are, it feels so arduous and painful and walking on eggshells and terrifying. And so as this scene goes on, she's reacting, again, so childishly to literally,

everything he says, she's got some sort of reaction. And finally, it's almost as if the roles are reversed, sort of, except Peter's never not also a child. But he's just like, he's essentially just like, do you have something to say? And she's like, no, why would I have anything to say? I don't have anything to say. He's like, because it sounds like you have something to say. And she's like, would you like me to say something? And she's, and finally, he says the most honest thing, which is just like, or do you want me? She's essentially just like, do you want, he's like, why don't you like unburden yourself and she's you know like do you want me to unburden you essentially and he's like yeah finally whatever you want to say just say it this like waiting for you to like

you know essentially blow up at me is the worst possible thing just say it and then she he finally is just like just fucking say it and that gives her the excuse to just be like don't you ever swear at me you little shit and uh you killed your sister and i can't i And she tries to, like, wrap it up in this, like, I know you're hurting, and I know this is bad. And I understand. But also, you killed your sister. And there's nothing I can do to make you feel better about that. And I wish I could, but you did what you did.

And you haven't ever taken responsibility for it, which, like, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Just like, and yet also, she's also not entirely wrong where it's like he just sort of drove home and left her. body, and it's a trauma response, but like, he drove home with her body in the car and left her to be discovered by them. So it's just like... To be devoured by ants. Well, also that, well, that's the other thing. There's also the lion's roar of this whole monologue of where she, the, like, the most histrionic thing she says is that, like, nobody admits to what they've done. Nobody ever takes, yeah,

nobody ever... It takes responsibility for what they've done. And it's all, like, it feels, you know, that this is the, this is the peak of this monologue. It's everything she's unloading into him is also her unloading the position that she is in in this family, the position she was put in by her mother. Her mother, right. And what is expected of her as a woman in a family unit. Right, right. And then, so like, not to like, I know we don't. normally go like chronologically through a plot, but I think there's so much that happens

in this movie. It goes on, like, she goes to the support group. She meets Joan. Joan Lake and Grace, she adds herself into her life. You can also see Ann Dowd in the earlier scene with her back to the camera, I think. And the, at the wake, at the funeral or whatever? No, in the first time that she goes to the support group, she has the monologue all about her mother and brother, et cetera. I'm always looking for her. I think she's there. I think she's the one who approaches the casket, who, like, touches the dead body's hands of the casket. We don't really see who does that, but I think that's Joan. I think that's supposed to be Joan.

Let's go, Joan. That was originally about Ann Dowd's character in Hereditary. That was Lala Re singing, Let's Go, Joan. Now that's going to be in my head for the rest of this time. Anyway, so you also see the part. I love, like, this is a very rewarding movie for, like, you. Easter eggs, I guess, is what you would call them. But, like, the part...

I know, but, like, you know, it's the easiest way for me to communicate what it is. The part where, like, you see somebody put a flyer in the mail slot of the house, where it's, like, go see a medium or whatever. And these, like, early attempts to just, like, get Annie to, like... But that also feeds into the plot, right? It was, like, they tried to get her to, like, go see a medium of her own accord. And when that didn't work, they sent Ann Dow to, like, run. into her in the parking lot of the Costco or whatever and um to be like i know what you're going through i've been there myself let's be friends and then so annie like fucking flips out by that point and it's

like comes uh comes home sets up this little like seance test is acting absolutely bananas with her husband and her son is like i know you just got to trust me we're gonna do this you got to we there's no time to explain and like she's acting and art galleries hounding her being fake, supportive of her grief and being like, but yeah, so when you're gonna do this show, we would love to know. We'd love to see how far you've progressed or whatever. She's doing weird passive aggressive dioramas like the crime scene from Charlie's death. She scares the shit out of Peter when she does the seance and she becomes momentarily possessed by Charlie, who is Payman.

She and Peter's nightmares are kind of infecting each other. We in the audience have these sequences where we might be seeing one of their nightmares and then it becomes the other person's nightmare. There's nightmares within nightmares. She follows the trail of ants to his room and she sees his face covered entirely with ants. The biggest scare in the movie beyond, like the scare of seeing Tony Collette in the corner her ceiling isn't quite a jump scare because first of all, there's no music cue for it. But also, it's like, the scene allows you to find her at your own pace.

What's scary about the scene is realizing that she's been there the whole time. That she's been there the whole time and then all of a sudden she can levitate. Like, that's a new one. Yeah. But the part where Peter is having the nightmare and he thinks he sees Charlie in the corner and Then the hand comes from the window and, like, grabs his face. And, like, watching that a second time and knowing that that was probably just, like, a cult member, like, reaching through the window and trying to grab his face and, like, because, like, they're constantly trying to, like, get him possessed. It's not just that they were, like, waiting for this moment for when it happens.

They've been trying to get him possessed the whole time. So, like, Joan, like, yelling these incantations at him from across the street of his high school where she's literally trying to. to expel the Peter of him from his body so that Payman can inhabit him. But, like, the part where the hand grabs him is just, like, one of the cult members from outside his window, because they're constantly outside that house. Just, like, grabbing his face and trying to, like, subdue him is so fucking scary. And it's scarier the second time. I had a pick earlier for what I thought the scariest image in the movie was besides Tony Colette

on the ceiling. Oh, no, the scariest one to me is. and I think it's even in the trailer, is when she's on, it's at the end of the movie when she's like banging her head on the attic door. Repeatedly, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

So fucking in fact. Because once again, we have violated the laws of gravity where she is just like absolutely upside down and can like cling to the ceiling and then be able to possess the force and speed with which to bang her head on the ceiling as much as she is. It's so terrifying.

It's absolutely terrifying. We need to transition at the hour mark of this thing into the Oscar conversation, the awards conversation. My question to you to kick this off is sort of in a couple different parts, one of which is, for as much as Tony Collette showed up through the precursor season, and we'll talk about she got a Critics Choice nomination, she won the Gotham Award, she was nominated for the Independent Spirit. One of the, oh, I forgot to, I was going to email you about this earlier, and I totally forgot that I wanted us to take on the, uh, the task of trying to rank what we think the votes were one to ten in the actress race this year in 2018. Oh, hold on. Let me pull up my spreadsheet. Oh, yeah. Why don't you talk about, talk, give the Patreon spiel while I jot these things down. Listen, listeners, uh, first of all, happy Halloween. What tricks are we putting in, uh, your little, uh, your little. plastic pumpkin-headed basket, go over to the Patreon and find out. For $5 a month, you're going to get two bonus episodes, first of which we like to call

exceptions. Those happen on the first of the month. So in a few days, or maybe even today, if you're listening to this episode, a few days after it's dropped, we've got episodes, movies that fit the, this had Oscar Buzz rubric, but actually ended up getting Oscar nominations. We kicked it off with the motion picture nine. Rob Marshall's nine. We've got things like Pleasantville,

Lovely Bones, which was selected by all of our patrons, as our first listener's choice over on the Patreon. And in a few days, we're going to have our first ever guest on the Patreon, and who else should that person be? But Katie Rich, we'll be talking about Baz Luhrman's, Australia. And then the second episode that we have every month, they drop on the 15th, we call those excursions, It's kind of deep dives into things we obsess about here on this had Oscar buzz.

We'll talk about EW movie preview issues. We'll recap old award shows. We do like the aforementioned Mailbag episode. We also have episodes of my experience going to Magic Mike Live. Spoiler alert. The Night of My Life. We do actress roundtables. We have a great one up about the 2016 Actress Roundtables.

table. Check us out. This had Oscar buzz, turbulent brilliance over at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Okay. Good timing. I have jotted down 15 names from the precursor, although I haven't checked BAFTA, but what was BAFTA that year? Do you have that? Bafta that year. Olivia Coleman wins. The other nominees were Glenn Close for the Wife, Lady Gaga for a Star is born, Melissa McCarthy for can you ever forgive me and viola davis for widows okay so i have 16 names uh with viola davis for widows okay so these are people who got either bafta independent spirit i didn't include michel fifer for where is kira from gotham awards because like we can only go so far but it's somewhat of a miracle than that movie even got to the gothams so glen close lady gala

Aparicio, Olivia Coleman, and Melissa McCarthy were all the Oscar nominees. So those are your one through five. Then we have Emily Blunt for Mary Poppins Returns, Regina Hall for Support the Girls, Elsie Fisher for 8th grade, Helena Howard for Madeline's Madeline, Carrie Mulligan for Wildlife, Tony Collette for Hereditary, Charlize Theron for Tully, Nicole Kidman for Destroyer, Rosamund Pike for a Private War, Constance Wu for Crazy Rich Asians, and Viola Davis for widows. These are all the people that got either an Oscar, Globe, SAG, BAFTA, Critics' Choice, or Independent Spirit nominations.

Right. Of these, I want to fill out who the next five in the Oscar voters tally, we think, were. Okay. I think we can probably remove Helena Howard. Definitely. For Oscar, yes. That is an incredible performance. One of these days, I literally was thinking.

as I was watching, I watched the trailer for Madeline's Madeline after I saw her name in this. I want to watch that movie with you and sort of experience it through your appreciation of it because I didn't get the fuss and I would kind of like to get the fuss. It's definitely a wavelength movie. If you're not on the wavelength of the movie, I think that's exactly how people will respond to that movie. I think we can throw out Rosamond Pike in a private war. Probably that movie was kind of a non-entity for that season, unfortunately. Do you think we can throw out Constance Wu for Crazy Rich Asians?

Maybe not for a 10. I don't know. That movie was interesting. Well, we'll see. We'll see. What do you think, Charlie's there on for Tully? Throw her out or no? Maybe. Okay. I'm also thinking of people who maybe never showed up on that list, like Joanna Kooli. for Cold War. Oh, who you think might have been top ten? Maybe. I mean, maybe she would be something like tenth, but I don't think she's someone we could rule out. Okay. So I'll lay out the case for each of them. Emily Blunt got a SAG nomination, a not a BAFTA, because the BAFTAs have very complicated feelings I think about Mary Poppins historically and in general. I think the Brits have this like love-hate relationship.

with that. Regina Hall got the New York Film Critics Circle Prize. Elsie Fisher, 8th grade is a screenplay nomination at the Oscars. So, like, I think that makes her somebody to consider. What about Carrie Mulligan

for Wildlife? Do we think she was a possible top ten? I would love to think so. She's tremendous in that movie. We've talked about... We haven't done an episode on that movie, but we talked about it. We're both fans. Right. A movie we saw together. Um, IFC is not great at campaigning, but, I mean, at that point, she's already an Oscar nominee. I wouldn't rule her out.

Okay. I think it's probably at this point easier to go 6 through 10th. Yeah, that's what I'm, well, that's why I'm just sort of like, I'm going through all these people and like, we're trying to figure out who the 6th through 10 is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I just like, I think there are cases. That's why I'm trying to like eliminate some so that we come down to like a, you know, know, we can have some sort of easy debate on this. Nicole Kidman and Destroyer is Nicole Kidman. And I think for a while there, the buzz was there for her. So I don't know how much it faded by the time the Oscar voters voted. Viola Davis for Widows, who like the BAFTA nomination probably says something.

Yeah. I think if you're a BAFTA nominee, I think you are probably somewhere in the 6th through 10. Does Viola Davis have more BAFTA nominations than Oscar nominations? She's got, what, four Oscar nominations? Does she have four? Doubt, fences, the help, Ma Rainey. Four Oscar nominations. She has four BAFTA nominations, but for different movies.

She was not BAFTA nominated for Ma Rainey or Doubt. Interesting. So it's what, Widows and... Woman King. Viola Davis, my Woman King. Right. That's right. Of course. Of course. How could I forget? Okay. So I feel like I think I have a sense of who I think the 6th through 10 were. And you can maybe come up with your own. Mine, I think were, if I were to pick five more to fill out that top 10. I would say Emily Blunt for Mary Poppins returns, Viola Davis for widows, Elsie Fisher for 8th grade, Tony Colette for Hereditary, and Nicole Kidman for Destroyer in some order. Oh, okay. So I...

Maybe not exactly in that order, but I think of those five are probably your sixth through ten. Emily Blunt is sixth. Okay. For sure. I think so. Viola Davis is seventh. Okay. Eighth is Nicole Kidman.

You think so? Yes. All right. This is when it gets tricky. I feel like ninth is... Well, I guess... 9th and 10th, I would be willing to believe Carrie Mulligan

and Elsie Fisher, I guess. So you don't think Tony Collette was in the top 10? I don't. Okay. I don't. The amount of campaigning that A-24 did for this movie, they did, like, events... They did a lot. For this movie, not late in the season, when campaigning is, like, really happening.

Maybe. I will say, and this is maybe being too anecdotal, but like I got invited to a campaign event and I never get invited to campaign event. So I feel like that at least gives a sense that like they were really, they were really trying for her. And this was like early December, maybe November. Like it was like into award season. This wasn't like the spring summer. So they were definitely trying with her. I also just don't know who I would like. I guess. Yes, Carrie Mulligan, I could see finishing around there. I also could maybe see Regina Hall, but, like... I don't think the Academy watched that movie, though. Which movie? She's amazing. I'm so happy she won New York critics, but... Oh, support the girls. Support the girls.

Sure. But I also don't necessarily think I could see them seeing Destroyer. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I think my main point is, beyond the fact that, that, like, this is a rich year for Best Actress. I think 2018 is a very underrated movie year.

When we talk about, like, the great movie years or whatever, I maybe think we need to start talking about 2018. And I think because Green Book and Bohemian Rhapsody dominated the Oscar conversation late that we want to sort of write off that year, but in terms of like, this is the historical thing is a lot of great movie years are bad Oscar years. This is what I'm saying. So, like, I also think we talk a lot about 2019 as being a great year that it kind of overshadowed. Because parasite wins.

But that's the thing is I think if you look at, like, the aggregate strength of the full field, I think 2018 beats 2019. And 2018 is like, there's some real, for real bangers in that year. I think that that is. And I wonder if the fact that the pandemic happened only two years after that has like, truncated our ability to, you know, look back on those few years pre-pandemic and evaluate them. But, like, I'm going to maybe start the project of let's start talking about 2018, the way we talk about 2007 or maybe 1999 is going to have its own little sort of place. But I think 2007, 2001, you know what I mean? Those, like, really good recent movie years, I think maybe 2018.

It gets overshadowed by 2017 and 2019 being so good. Another person we didn't mention in this potential lineup is also Catherine Hahn for private life. Oh, who I don't think would have made the top 10, but you're right. She deserves place in here. That's probably why we were talking about this, the actress race. That would have been a recent, that's probably why you remember us talking about this. But anyway, I just think it's notable that. And none of the precursor awards that Tony Colette was getting nominated for had any kind of overlap with Oscar voters, right?

They were all like Critics' Choice, Independent Spirit, Gotham Awards. But I think the fact that she's showing up to them, by the way, Glenn Close is in all of those lineups, which is like, sucks. I mean, like, that she was like, what the fuck does Glenn Close need to have? And I know the wife was an independent movie, but like, why does Glenn Close need to show up on the independent Spirit Awards list or the Gotham Awards list. Like. Everybody was trying to get her a win. But nobody liked that movie.

Nobody liked that movie. Like, nominating somebody for a movie you don't like is something for Oscar voters to do or for Golden Globe voters for do. This is maybe something I said quite a bit in the year of our Lord. In the year of our payment, 20 years. Do you recall me saying otherwise? No, I remember, I remember me just being very mean and empathic. You were very meaning emphatic, and that's fine.

I just think when it comes to, I think my grand theory about award season is that every award needs to behave like itself and stop trying to be other things. And I think that's my thing where what, that's why I hate the Critics' Choice so much is that, by the way, the Critics' Choice in 2018 nominated seven people and gave out two winners. that is a craven organization that has no sense of pride and no sense of its own self, right? The critic's choice want to be the Oscars so bad, and that's why I have no respect for them. But like the Gotham Awards, as annoying as I find the Gotham Awards, they are their own thing and they have their own identity. The Independent Spirit Awards, for as much as we are annoyed by them, have an ideal for themselves that they don't always live up to, but they at least have that ideal for themselves. The BAFTAs used to have more of an identity, and now they are kind of a little bit more beholden to the Oscars. This is why I have never hated the Golden Globes as much as other people hate the Golden Globes.

Because they're their own freak show. They're their own freak show. And in recent years, they're even more of a freak show than they were. They are less beholden to the Oscars than they've ever been. The Air and Taylor Johnson's The... Totally. you're Rosamund Pike for I care a lot for, you know what I mean?

Like all that sort of weird shit. This is my thing is I need award season to be as heterogeneous as possible. And when the Independent Spirit Awards and when the Gotham Awards start nominating Glenn Close for the wife, even though it like letter of the law

fits underneath their rubric, it annoys me, especially because their other nominations are exactly what they should be doing with Helena Howard and Regina Hall and Elsie Fisher, you know what I mean? Like, those are the nominations that you should be. Michelle Pfeiffer for Where's Kira is a bug nuts nomination because not a single human being

saw that movie. I saw a movie in a theater. How dare you? Is it good? Was it good? I liked it. Okay. I can see why it was a tough sell.

I'm glad it got nominated. We're going to be talking about in a little bit, although I don't know when the, you guys will probably not be listening to it for a while. But when we do our Patreon episode on the 1996 MTV Movie Awards, that's what I'm talking about is the MTV Movie Awards used to have a very strong identity for themselves

and am I sounding like a crazy person sort of like ranting at a cloud or do you understand what I'm saying do you understand what I'm saying? No and also I think part of the idea of precursors chasing the Oscars

essentially or not that's not the right word precursors trying to predict the Oscars essentially in what they're voting for. It also gets into the thing of like the season gets boring, it gets predictable. Yes.

You know, because I think we even had a question that we didn't get to on the mailbag that was like, why do precursors all end up being the Oscar winner? Well, it's because these awards bodies think, well, this person's getting an Oscar, so we should vote for them to look more serious or something rather than vote for who you want to go for. It's group think. It's like it's things that are maybe not even

always happening on a conscious level. But like, I think on a conscious level it's maybe up to these people to like push back against that more than they do. Right, right. To go down the path. But also you do have to think some of these groups are large awards bodies

and it can be. be hard to create consensus. Laws of large numbers definitely play in more than we, more than we admit, and we should probably say that. That, like, in larger and larger groups, you are going to have results that are less and less interesting because you're just going to sort of, like, revert to the middle.

And that's the way it goes. And, like, Tony Colette in Hereditary is a perfect example of a performance that is hard to gather consensus around, as much as it may seem not to be the case with gay men on the internet. it is an extreme performance in an extreme movie yeah that is but here's the thing that i like about it though is that in this context is it's not pandering there are sometimes when like gay people on twitter and i know i understand that like i am too often responding to that and and pushing back against that when it's not really a thing. But this is our community and we can exist in that

milieu if we want to. It's too often that the performances that get responded to there feel, if not consciously pandering, unconsciously pandering to that sensibility, right? And I don't think there is anything about either Hereditary or Tony Collette's performance in Hereditary that feel like they are pandering to that sensibility at all. I feel like it's pandering. It's pandering to nothing, but Ariasters sensibility. I think Lady Gaga and House of... Like, Lady Gaga and House of Gucci is absolutely pandering to that sensibility. Sometimes you do that so well that I have no choice but to give it up, and that's exactly

where I am with Lady Gaga in... Well, actually, no, I have complicated feelings about Lady Gaga and House of Gucci. We can't get into it. We'll do that in a Patreon episode at some point. In an exception. But do you know what I mean, though, about like... that there are certain times we're just like,

well, of course you love that. Like, that person essentially like gift-wrapped that performance exactly to your, like, you know, little sensibilities. I don't know.

You know what I mean? Tony Colette is kind of almost a mascot for that kind of taste, though. It's like, obviously appreciated actress with a large body of work,

but very easy to, you know, know, describe her in a way that makes her seem like an underdog or an underserved performer, which I think is all true. But these are things that we, as part of the gay cultural machine and, uh, here's an example I will give you. Prison system. Uh, we tend to, you know, make those like religious figures.

years, you know, where it's like undervalued greatness. Laura Dern in Big Little Lies is pandering to that sensibility. Laura Dern in marriage story isn't. And that's why there was a backlash against Laura Dern in marriage story where, and part of that, a lot of that had to do with Jennifer Lopez. But do you know what I mean? I think some of that subconsciously probably had to do with the fact that. that it was a heterosexual male's story, largely, in marriage story.

Maybe. But also, I love both of those performances. Well, I like both of those performances. I much prefer the one in marriage story. But I think there is something to the idea of there is something sort of intentionally over the top in the Big Little Lies performance that she's giving that feels a little pandering to... Especially season two.

I think, like, I feel that way a little bit with some, a lot of the stuff that Jennifer Coolidge does these days. Do you know what I mean? Where it's like, you're pitching this exactly to the audience that's going to, you know, that's going to receive it that way. And, like, you know, work, I guess. But, like, also, I don't know. This is why I don't love Catherine O'Hara in Schitt's Creek. Oh, that's, you know what? honestly, for as much as I do like Schitt's Creek a lot, and I am on the side of defending

that show against its backlash, but like, I don't think you're wrong there, exactly. Have we done the Tony Collette conversation before? No, let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. Muriel's Wedding, I think, is the place to start. I know she had been in, like, things in Australia before then. But, like, Muriel's wedding sort of comes on, like, a, you know, a shot from across the globe, which is sort of essentially what it was.

She kind of takes America by storm with that movie. It's a huge indie sensation. She gets a Golden Globe nomination for it. She gained, like, 40 pounds for the role, but also, like, that was the first thing a lot of people saw her in. So, like, her subsequent roles, or at least, like, the things she's being offered for are sort of, like, all fit that kind of, um you know uh type that character type yes um her role in emma the next year uh she's in clock watchers with lisa kudrow and alana youbeck and parker posey is the fourth one in that yeah um the next the next thing that really like stands out to me on her filmography is she plays mandy slade

in velvet goldmine todd haines velvet goldmine which I can acknowledge that it's probably not Todd Haynes' best work, but it's definitely my favorite. Like, it's absolutely the one that I hold deepest in my heart. Great movie. The man has never made a bad movie. Every time people make the joke about somebody, like, inhales on a cigarette and says, like, I haven't heard that name in 20 years. She's the one I'm thinking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's always, like, that's my touchstone for that exact kind of thing. and she's like her in like the corner of this club smoking her cigarette and just being like I haven't heard she's the best performance in the movie she's immense in that movie and I think a lot of people give very good performances in that many in that movie but I absolutely agree the next year after that she gets her only Oscar nomination to date which is kind of amazing in the sixth sense I remember which at the time felt like a surprise nomination and like she was writing the coattails of the movie doing well with Oscar, but now the way that people talk about that movie, and like, a lot of

people are like, yes, it's the one scene, the car scene, basically, but like, it's, she's great in that whole movie. She's great in the whole movie, but, like, if there are, like, Oscar nominations that happen for one scene, it's, like, one of the best, because that scene is incredible. Just, I think what she's actually tasked to do and what she actually brings to it as a performer with the type of choices that she makes that are very Tony Colette choices. Yeah. And how authentic it feels.

She's bringing this real, believable human emotion to these unbelievable circumstances. Yes. It's incredible. So by the time I had seen the Sixth Sense, I'd seen it in the theaters, obviously. I had not seen Velvet Goldmine by this point. I had only ever seen her in Muriel's Wedding and Emma. And so I remember watching the trailers for The Sixth Sense, and she's in the trailers for it, absolutely did not clock her as Tony Collette from Muriel's wedding. Like she looks, and it's so funny because it's not like she has this like huge transformation, but like the dark hair, the fingernails, the accent, all of this stuff.

You know, she's only like 27 when she makes that movie, which is like insane to think of. She's probably 26. That movie comes out when she's 27. She's probably 26 years old when she makes that. which is amazing because, like, that is not the demeanor or performance of a 26-year-old person. You know what I mean? Like, that is somebody who has kind of been through it. And she's so tremendously good.

In a very strong best-supporting actress field, I think she deserves, she probably deserved to win that year. She follows that up with a kind of divisive performance in Shaft, in the John Singleton Shaft. I need to re-watch that because I definitely saw that in theaters with my dad, and I remember absolutely nothing. Yeah, I don't remember very much about it either. Great. Jeffrey Wright's awesome in everything. I mean, when is it? I know.

Her next major film, she's in 2002, she's in both about a boy and The Hours. We've talked about her in The Hours enough. If you've never heard Chris Fyle give his performance as Tony Collette playing Kitty in The Hours, you truly have not lived. Like, that is... We did this for... During... You know, when people were just, like, doing script readings on Zoom, during the pandemic, we did that for Joe's birthday. All of my friends gathered on the same Zoom, reading through the hours, acting out the different parts, was maybe one of the best things that ever happened.

I remember Joe being like, now listen, I know that you're going to want something good. I know. I know. I know. I have a lot of people being really... I did cast it, like a casting director. So, just let me... Like, giving me the full sell of, like,

please be amenable. And I was like, no, it's fine. I want Tony Colette and I want, like, Mrs. Latch or something. I will say, the reviews that came in immediately after were raves upon raves for Chris's kitty and truly well-deserved. I'm a character actress. What can I say?

Truly. You know what movie I've never seen still is Japanese story? It's not good. She's good in it. I've heard great things about her performance. She's good, but I do think that the movie is a little ridiculous. Okay. I understand why some people are taken with it, and partly just because she's great.

Yeah. All right. 2004, Connie and Carla. Chris, you have the floor. Modern masterpiece. All right. Listen, Neovardalos, I'm sure you're not listening, but if you're listening, thank you for everything you have given us to the culture, not only your trilogy, but also Connie and

Carla. Your trilogy. I love, Kanye and Carla is very funny, I will say, worth the watch. If you have not seen Connie and Carla, a very funny movie, worth the watch. 2005, she makes In Hershey's. We've done an episode on it. Go back and listen to our In Hershey's episode. Tremendous.

She's fantastic and is somehow. my third favorite performance in the movie. Do you know what I mean? Like that she can be that good and I still like am even more boldover by Cameron Diaz and Shirley MacLean. So like, um, but she's fantastic. The next year she's in Little Miss Sunshine, uh, which for a movie where a lot of different cast members got a lot of, um, attention for that. She did get a Golden Globe nomination for that. And I think she's really fantastic in that movie. I also need to rewatch. Um, she's in, the night listener, she's sort of part of the twist in the night listener. The night listener is essentially like a, it was based on, it was written by Armistead Muppen, it was based on his novel,

right? But it also like is kind of like a, um, J.T. Leroy-esque, like, um, you know, fabricated, uh, fabricated child kind of story. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, It's kind of interesting. She's in The Dead Girl, which is a movie that, like, I remember. I know I saw The Dead Girl, but I don't really remember very much about it, and I should watch it again. Indie Spirit nominee. Indie Spirit nominee. She's an evening in 2007.

We've done an episode of that. What if there was an evening? What if there was an evening? What's the next big one that I can see? She's kind of like, well, oh. This is when United States of Terror starts to take over. And she's in these, like, small comments. She does a lot of, like, small comedies that not...

You never watched United States of Terror, right? No, I need to loop back because I... I would love to be able to talk to you about that show, because it's really... It's of its time. It's not always great, but I always loved it, if that makes sense. And, like, I have such deep affection for it. As a Diablo Cody devotee,

it is embarrassing that I have not seen that, considering I have seen the Diablo Cody directorial debut with Julian Huff that no one else has seen? I did not see that. I admit, I did not see it. That show went for three seasons, two seasons, how many seasons?

I believe it was three seasons, yeah. To only 36 episodes, you could blow through it quickly. I think she's tremendous in it. She wins a Emmy award for it. It was one of those why we give it Emmys to comedies that aren't comedies kind of a thing that, like, People, other people always seem to care about a lot more than I do, which isn't to say

I never care about it, but it's not when I love something as much as I love Tony Collette. Like, it's a dromedy, you know, dromedies exist. They are not a perfect fit in either category, and we're just going to have to be adults about it and live with it. Certainly she's great enough in it that I'm happy she won an award for it. A lot of people are like, oh, so it's like, you know, that it was essentially like awards bait that she's playing multiple personalities and whatever, and it's just like, to each their own.

She sort of comes back into movies through supporting roles. She's, you know, a supporting role in Hitchcock. I love her in enough said in essentially like the best friend role to Julia Louis Dreyfus. I think she's really fantastic in that. Would love to see her back in another Hall of Center at some point. she's in Tammy in such a weird role in Tammy where she's like the person that Tammy's husband is having the affair with or whatever and it's like that's such an oddly shaped movie that I still have some weird affection for mostly because of some of the performances

in it but what a weird movie that was um miss you already have you ever seen I was about to ask you if you have seen it because it's weird that I haven't seen it. Yeah. But I have... You should see it. I think it's good. I think she's good.

I think Drew is good. I think it's a very touching movie. It's sort of a tier... It's like a, you know, intentional tear-jurker. But I found it very charming. The same year as Crampus, which is a movie that I enjoy. Crapus does feel like in many ways to be like a precursor to like getting people ready for Tony Colette in the horror milieu, right?

Yeah. like, easing people into what hereditary would end up being. What else is even happening? She's in Fun Mom Dinner, which was sort of like the, what was that movie with Milakunis and Kristen Bell and Catherine Hahn? Bad moms. It was sort of like, you know, the Sundance version of bad moms. I never saw it.

Did you ever see it? I do love Bridget Everett. Do you, like. I love Bridget Everett. I love Richard Everett so much. I struggled so much with the whole idea of getting my hopes up for somebody somewhere as an Emmy contender, even though I know that, like, that was never going to happen. And I was being that kind of annoying person that I don't like, who's like,

this is such bullshit that this specific, super small thing that I love didn't get nominated. And it's like, I think there was just a lot of optimism for it, because that is a show that has a mask. more and more respect and more and more audience as it has continued to go on. I think it's a miracle that it has a season three coming, and I can't wait. All right, so then we get to Hereditary in 2018. Since Hereditary, she's been in Velvet Buzzsaw, which is such a weird movie. I loved her in Knives Out. Her every facial expression in Knives Out is an absolute gift to the world.

Her immaculate performance is Gwyneth Paltrow. She is so good. She was in the movie, the first movie I saw in the theater after COVID, which was Dream Horse, a movie that asks the question of, what if Tony Colette fell in love with a horse? Just on the poster. I love, I, the movie is whatever most, but what I loved about Dream Horse was just tweeting about Dream Horse. Of course. Also, by the way, the movie is called Dream Horse. The horse in the movie Dream Horse is named Dream Horse.

Dream. So it is like... It sure fucking is. It is. The horse is named Dream, but the movie is Dream Horse. It's a Dream Horse. It's a Dream Horse. Not Dream, comma, a horse.

Nope. Dream, colon, a horse story. Next is I'm thinking of ending things, which... What did you think of this movie and her performance in it? Wasn't as high on her performance in the movie. But you liked the movie better than I did, right? Or no? I feel like I waffle on that movie.

movie as I'm watching it, but I do ultimately come out on the positive side of that movie, especially for Jesse Buckley and Jesse Plymonds. I'm thinking of ending things in Bowes Afraid have such similarities to each other that I'm fascinated that you like one and don't like the other. I guess I can see how they can be categorized together, but... You don't think they have very similar vibes? They make, like, I feel like they, they make me feel very similar things. Although it's funny because I like Bo as Afraid better than I'm thinking of anything. So I'm like the exact same but opposite. I think there's something mysterious about I'm thinking of ending things that invites you in in a way that Bo is afraid just feels like...

I don't feel that way. Interesting. It just feels like it's just screaming everything out and there's not really anything for me to interact with. and I think Bo is afraid I think Bo is afraid is more interested in entertaining you even a little bit I think I'm thinking of ending things is very much opposed to entertaining you

at all points But I do think it has some things It wants you to think about Whereas I don't know what Bo's Afraid Yeah Has even going for it than that I could agree with that I could agree with that

Like I am interested in seeing Boas Afraid a second time I kind of am too, though I can't... I think I might love it even more. Out of my day for that. But, like, maybe I'll watch that on Christmas Day. What if I watch that on Christmas Day? You can watch it for a hundred.

My beau is afraid day. Good. All right, anyway, I think she's completely wasted in Nightmare Alley. I didn't see Mafia Mama. I'm not uninterested. It's supposed to be horrible. I'm not uninterested in checking it out, but it is supposed to be horrible. Yeah, that's a movie that I,

will watch, and when I watch it, I don't care if it's bad. I just think I won't. Very, very excited, though also nervous for her being in Bong Joon Ho's Mickey 17 next year. Why are we nervous? It's a lot to live up to. Because of her being, because of the roles that she's taken in things like Nightmare Alley, I am nervous that she is not going to be served by whatever role she is in in this movie. This is true. I've not read the novel that it's based on. I trust Fong Junho more than that, but...

But I also trust Guillermo del Toro, and, you know what I mean? It's not like... We know almost nothing about Mickey 17, but, like, the vibes that I get is a little more... And because it is an ensemble movie with Robert Pattinson at the head of it... I know. I should read this book. Thinking of Snowpiercer, in a way, I think we should... do Snowpiercer.

Before this movie comes out, I think that's a good idea. Yeah. The cast is incredible, though. It's Robert Pattinson, Stephen Young, Naomi Acky, Tony Collette, Mark Ruffalo. Yeah. Maw. Cannot wait. Perfect.

You think of Snowpiercer and you're like, Octavia Spencer is given nothing to do in that movie. I know. I know. I know. We love Tony Col. She's also in. She's also currently filming. or at least recently was filming,

a new Clint Eastwood movie called Juror No. 2, where Nicholas Holt, the premise is, according to Wikipedia, a juror serving on a murder trial realizes he is at fault for the victim's death. Interesting. Will I be able to understand this movie if I have not seen The Juror,

starring Alec Baldwin into me more, since it's juror. Nicholas Holt plays the titular juror number two. Tony Colette, Zoe Deutsch, Kiefer, Sutherland, Leslie Bibb, are the other people. I will say this. There are Clint Eastwood movies that sometimes seem like it's just Clint Eastwood, like, noodling around with some weird, you know, notion that crossed his mind or whatever. You're The Mules, Your Cry Machos or whatever. And then there are some that are plottier, and I'm like,

I'm a little bit interested. I know that sometimes plottier means, oh, what's the Kathy Bates Oscar nomination? Richard Jewell. Richard Jewell. Richard Jewell is very plodian, that didn't turn out very well. So, like, I guess there's probably more reason to dread this than not dread this, but I don't know.

I'm kind of into the idea. Is that crazy? We shall see. We shall indeed see. All right. We love Tony Colette. We do. I think the closest she ever got to a second nomination was about a boy.

I think that's probably correct. I think she was probably in that like sixth or seventh spot for supporting actress in O2. Yeah. Right? Like who were the other ones? I guess Susan Sarandon and Igby was sort of floating around there. Cameron Diaz and Gangs of New York, they gave it the old college try, trying for that to happen.

I think Tony was probably up there. I think that movie was very well liked. I think she's so good in that movie. She has a way of playing characters who very much resist the idea of the audience having too much sympathy for them. Do you know what I mean? And I think that was an early example of that,

where you could very easily have played that role to just be like, oh, she's the, like, she's the sweet but frazzled mom, and she's, you know, in a bad spot. And she is all of those things. But, like, there are moments in that movie where she's just like, really, you can understand where, I mean, speaking of Nicholas Holt, oh, my God, juror number two is a, is a reunion. It's an about a boy reunion. It's an about a boy reunion. I didn't even think about that immediately.

Holy shit. but you can see where Nicholas Holt's character and about a boy has real struggles with her being his mom and she needs him too much sometimes and she expects things from him and she's just quite good and that I think that's probably right I do think hereditary I do feel like she was probably

in ninth or tenth place for hereditary but that's you and I can intelligent people can disagree on that and what do you think your favorite your actual favorite Tony Collette performances. I think it's Velvet Gold Mine? Yeah, it's either Velvet Gold Mine or Muriel for me. I mean, Muriel, it's just how often does she get a full lead to dominate a movie in that way?

Even Hereditary, she has to somewhat share it with Alex Wolfe, I would argue. Yes. Although I put Alex Wolf as a supporting actor, and I know I got pushed back from a bunch of other people. I would still say he's supporting, but, like... A lot of people slotted him when they were doing their own awards. They slotted him as lead. Listen, neither of them are with the protagonist of the story. The protagonist is Queen Lee.

But, I mean, like, yeah, I think he's a supporting performance, too. Did you see that Kathleen Shelfont is the person who is uncredited, but appears as Ellen Lee? What? I literally, watching it again, this time. It doesn't really look like her. And I don't know whether that is like erroneous information. I don't know. I would like somebody to like investigate. I read that in like a couple different spots, though. And either that's like misinformation that struck out there, but it really does not look like her. So like I don't know what's going on. Hold please. All right, I'm going to

hold. While you look that up, I'm going to try and come up with my top five Tony Collette performances. I think it's her You think it's Kathleen Shelfont? I'm seeing multiple things that are crediting her with the performance, so it's not just someone... But maybe it's everybody coming from the same bad information. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know.

Kathleen Shalfant, get back at us. Tweet us at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Yeah. If you have cell access from the island that makes you old. or the beach that makes you old. Wait, she was in that? She's in old! As who?

I think she... Is she one of the scientists? I think so. Is this a Lena Olin? Is she older Vicky Creeps? No, I think she is like Vicki Creeps's mom or something. Hold on, looking up old. We've got so many tangents.

I love an episode with a lot of tangents. This is going to be a long episode. episode, especially after we put in the movie game insert. I know. Kathleen Chalfant, Kathleen Chalfant, Kathleen Chalfant, Kathleen Chalfant. Agnes, Charles's mother. Who's Charles? Charles is Rufus Sewell.

Does Rufus Sewell have a flashback to his mother? No, she, oh, is Kathleen Chalfant the first one who dies on old? No, she's, oh. Maybe. I don't remember anything about old Hold on I gotta see old again Except for like Abby Lee turns into a spider

She's there with it She is yes she absolutely She dies like right there Like immediately Wow I love Kathleen Shelfont I should remember more About her performance in old

I need to see old again What a good movie Let's talk about Arioster Okay let's Some people really okay, this is going to be where we're going to get into our elevated horror conversation, because I do feel like the reason why a lot of people hate him is because I think they place a lot of their feelings about elevated horror onto him.

I don't know, though. I think people also place a lot of their feelings of like, he makes these extreme movies, and I think people who, people project onto him this idea of like, well, this is what you think you are as a great filmmaker is just being loud or something. I think people project these airs of pretentiousness onto him that I don't understand because I don't think Hereditary is a pretentious movie. I don't think it's, if you're talking, if you're annoyed with the idea of like A-24 horror or like movies that are more creepy than horrific or that are more vibes than actual

like blood and guts or whatever. Or movies that make you work a little. little bit to figure out what's going on. Sure, but I, I, there's, there's a, there's a, there's a streak of inferiority complex that I don't love in this sort of anti-A-24 horror, anti-elevated horror, anti-Ariester thing, where it feels like people are being like, you think you're smarter than me or whatever, and it's just like, it's such a bad look. And it's partly, it's also because I don't see where these,

two things are incompatible, where we can't have horror that is more bloody and visceral and gross and sort of like base, you know what I mean? It's just like appealing to our more basic instincts or whatever. I don't see why that's incompatible with horror that is more psychological or emotional. I know everybody's very hair-trigger about trauma, you know what I mean as, but I also don't think, the interesting thing about hereditary is this is not a movie. People gave it like the, oh, it's another horror movie about drama. It's not a metaphor movie. It is not a metaphor movie. This is not a metaphor for grief. Grief happens in this movie, but like grief exists on the same plane of reality as what is happening in this movie. What is happening in this movie is not a metaphor for anything beyond a cult wants to bring a, you know, the king of hell back to earth. Like, this is not that. It's, Midsomar, if you want to say Midsomar is a metaphor for grief, sure, yes, I will grant you that. I also resent this, like, putting things into a box of whether you want to say

it's pretension or, like, I resent it on both sides that, like, there might be some looking down, that, like, something like scream isn't a serious movie. Or I also resent, like... the idea that, I don't know, hereditary is annoying because its ideas are obscure in the film itself. Like, I don't know. I hate the elevated horror conversation because it's like there have always been horror movies with more on its mind than just scaring you.

What is the brood? David Cronenberg's The Brood. What is that, if not like, an extended horror metaphor? You know what I mean? Right. That's a movie that wears its metaphor on its sleeve or whatever. That doesn't mean that movie isn't good horror. That movie's great horror.

Right. I mean, the Exorcist is pinned as like the scariest movie ever made, right? But like, what is that movie, if not a reaction to everything happening culturally in America the decade before it? I understand the idea that like a term like elevated horror is very much a marketing term. And what it exists for is it's a dog whistle for people who think they don't like horror because they don't, like, it's too scary for them. And so then you can say like. People who want to say, oh, but you should take this horror movie seriously. See, okay.

I think that. But I think that's, I don't think that's the right interpretation of it. I think that's the inferiority complex talking. I think what it exists for is, is it exists so that people. people who are squeamish about blood, are squeamish about gore, and are scaredy cats, that you can say, this is the kind of horror movie that you might like anyway, because it's offering you something a little bit different. I think it's hilarious if you get people to get into the theater and see hereditary with that promise, because like you're going to scar people.

Or even better, Midsamar. But I think people want to, and I think A24, which is a very marketing savvy studio and distributor who, like, who, like, say what you will, they care for making sure that their movies get the biggest audience possible. And I think if to do that, they want to handhold certain portions of their audience that are resistant to seeing something that is too horrific. I don't mind that. I understand where, like, nobody likes to, like, feel like they're buying into a marketing, you know, narrative or whatever. So then you look at something like elevated horror and you, like, make the jerk off motion or whatever.

But I don't, I don't like the interpretation that this is meant to communicate that, like, oh, this is like smarter horror or this is, you know what I mean? And I think that's where a lot of the backlash comes from is people being like, so you're saying, I do think it's funny that it's people being like, So you're saying the blob isn't smart, and it's just like, you like a movie called the blob. Like, maybe just own the fact that, like, you don't need to care about whether people think you're smart or not for liking. Or it's like, are you saying that Friday the 13th is stupid? Yeah, those movies are stupid, but I love them anyway, I don't care. Right, right. I'm not putting them in a box of smart and stupid to enjoy it.

Like, I mean, those, you know, that's maybe a bad existence. for what I'm talking about, but like... No, but... I suppose Scream is like the ultimate example, because that is a very well-made, very smart, very well-performed movie. But Scream is a movie also that marketed itself as the smart person's horror movie,

because it, like, it talked about the rules of horror movies. So, like, kind of what are we... What are we doing? I just, I guess I also don't buy into the idea. I've never bought into the idea that elevated horror is something that exists because it's always like the idea of what is

elevated horror is like it's a horror movie with something more on its mind than blood-guet- whatever you want though, but there are, I think if you tell me this movie falls under the umbrella of elevated horror

I can kind of I can imagine what kind of a movie we're talking about where it's like heavily psychological something like Jacob's Ladder, right? You know what I mean? Which like there was not a term for elevated horror back then. But that was like psychological horror

as opposed to a slasher, as opposed to what was the one with the girl was going to get married and Adrian Brody was there and they all tried to kill her. Ready or not. Ready or not is an elevated horror, right?

You know what I mean? Like ready or not is a slasher. And I think a lot of people sort of like carried the banner for that movie. We're like, this is what we're talking about. We don't need elevated horror. It's like maybe both can exist. And maybe it's just a way of describing what shape and form a movie takes versus the other.

And maybe I don't mind that. Maybe you also have to look at the term as a reaction from the previous stages of like, what was popular horror, you know, in terms of horror movies? Right. Because, like, ahead of, like, the elevated... I'm, like, breaking my fingers, I'm scare quotes, scare quotes. Yeah. Before the, like, elevated horror movement, like, what was the widespread horror trend? And it's, like, torture.

Found footage movies. It's, like, I guess, some traditional horror movies, like the Conjuring. The major trend was... Torture porn. Torture porn. Yeah. Yeah. and before that was like WB sort of teen horror was before that and before that was a little bit of like a wise ass scream like revisionist slash well I would even put scream in the in the like teen horror sort of bucket because it sort of kicked that off yeah but before that was kind of your later stage it was when like franchises like Friday the 13th and nightmare at elm street and Halloween were all puttering through their like late stages and before that was your 80s slash

You know what I mean? So it's like, it's, you're right, it's all, everything does seem to be a little bit of a reaction to the thing that came before it. And I'm sure that like we are already in the, you know, people are reacting against, you know, elevate horror. Maybe that's just sort of the way it's going to go. But I, I've never had as much of a problem with that term as other people seem to have. And I don't know.

I guess to pull, if we're talking about horror as a genre and to pull it into like talking about Ariaster, he said he's not, he doesn't see himself as a horror filmmaker. And as his, like, the projects he wants to make next, they're not horror movies. Like, he categorizes Bowes Afraid as a comedy. I feel like Midsamar to me is a comedy. And Hereditary is very funny. But, like... His quote, though, about Hereditary, though, he says,

the film is a horror film. I think when you watch a lot of the press for Hereditary, I think there was, you can always get a sense of like what the talking points are a little bit, what has been sort of, and I think everybody involved was very careful to be like, no, it is a horror movie. Don't let me tell you it's not. But he said this film is a horror film. It's unabashedly one. But as I was pitching it, I was pitching it, I was describing it as a family tragedy that curdles into a nightmare. And that is what the movie is. Like, does describe the movie, I think, fairly well, and that, like, it's this

very dark family tragedy that becomes something so terrifying and scary. And I do think this is a very... This is not a movie, like, I know I pick on this movie too much, but what was the

the Cresha director's follow-up? It comes at night. It comes at night. Where it was, that was all just, like, dread and vibes that ultimately had no payoff, and it made me so mad. That, I think, is a tragedy masquerading with horror tropes. I wouldn't even go.

But I think there is a trend of sometimes where it's like it's all buildup. I think for as much as I didn't hate Skinnamarink, I didn't love Skinner, I was kind of in the middle, but I think one of the things that people hated of it was just like it was all buildup and then no payoff. And the payoff is in like these like little sort of like you really have to be like paying attention to the margins and like listening like really closely to like whispers and whatnot. The payoff of Skinnamar rink is after you've watched the movie and you're like laying in bed at night and you're like, can I just go to sleep please? I can't be staring into the corners of my room. Try trying a nephew who's the age of having all of those like weird little Fisher Price toys and whatever like just lying around.

in your home. I think that Skinnamarink has some legitimately terrifying images in it. I agree with that. That's why I like it as much as I do. I don't love it, but I like it a lot. But I think hereditary is not that. Hereditary pays its shit off. Like, Hereditary delivers the goods.

And I don't know why I feel like I have to defend this movie. When you've had too much cake or something that it's like, oh, this isn't what I asked for. Maybe next talk. Halloween will do Midsomar, and we can talk about that, because that's a movie that I've thought about, probably a good deal less than I've thought about Hereditary. I've also only ever seen Midsomar one time. It's definitely my favorite of the three. I'm, and I'd love to dig into the why of that, why I maybe prefer. Maybe I don't. Maybe a second viewing of Midsomar, I would like it better. I will say my nitpicky thing about Midsomar is everybody was all like,

ooh, the director's cut of the movie. And I think that the director's cut is. is markedly not as good. Directors' cuts are not as good. I will say the only director's cut, I think I prefer the JFK director's cut. Well, Blade Rock. To, well, sure.

But, like, even, like, the almost famous director's cut, which is essentially just, like, more of this movie that I love. That I do want to see. I haven't seen that, and I do want to say that. I enjoy the bootleg cut of Almost Famous, but I do like the theatrical cut more. I will like them both, but I do like the theatrical cut more. It used to be for the Exorcist that

the most available like almost entirely the only available one was the recut that has a few extra like the spider walk thing is the thing that everybody wants so that's why that version is there but like that cut sucks

like not sucks it's still a great movie but like it adds the well guess what we're friends ending and it's it deflates the whole movie friendship cinema Chris friendship cinema all that Lee Cobb wants

in that movie is a friend to go to the movies with I love that character Who Among Us? But yeah Um All right

No like I think Midsamar is also the thing of like To figure out what's going on It's all there But it's obscured And I think that there's elements of that And the director's cut

Where it's just like It's spelling too much out for you Yeah It takes Half of what's special That movie away I have two, I know we're running long, but I have two things that I really do have to mention.

One of which is we haven't really talked about Alex Wolf enough in this. And I just want to ask your opinion of his performance in this movie, because I've talked about him a lot. Oh, I love his performance in this movie. That shot of him, there are so many, I literally did a little, like, laundry list of, like, all of the things in this movie that, like, just images of this movie that will never escape me. One of which is when he turns and looks and sees him his reflection and his reflection is just like smirking at him. The dopiest ass smile. Oh, I hate it so much, but I also love it. It's so good. You mentioned Tony Collette banging her head on the attic door, terrifying. Tony on the ceiling, amazing. The ants on Peter's face I mentioned, which is a callback

to the ants on Charlie's decapitated face. Every time Alex Wolf cries, it is hilarious. But also, I think, genuinely affecting. Like, I have such, I love his character so much. I'm so sad for him by the end. But also the way that he contorts his face in the later classroom scene, where he like, where he's essentially just like... It looks like he's having a stroke.

He's trying to, like, escape his skeleton. It's... I just think he's incredible. So he was nominated for the MTV. By this point, it was the MTV movie and television awards, Barf. Most frightened performance,

which used to be for a time most scared-ish-ship performance. The winner of that is Sandra Bullock for Birdbox, because that was such a huge hit. Also nominated were Rion Reese for the Halloween remake, Linda Cardalini for the Curse of La Loronia,

and Victoria Padretti for the Haunting of Hillhouse, which, for as much as I object to, including television in this at all, Victoria Padretti, like, that's what you would nominate her for, most frightened performance. I still think justice for Alex Wolfe, he should have won this.

100%. The most bullshity, though. Can we talk about how somehow Tony Collette did not win the Saturn Award for Best Actress? Of all the things

that she would have... Okay, I'm going to give you this lineup. Don't look it up because I'm going to read it to you. Okay. Is it as bad as the MTV one? There were seven nominees We've talked about the Saturn Awards. Saturn Awards are essentially supposed to be the science fiction and horror awards.

They've suffered mission creep like you would not believe. So Tony Colette doesn't win for hereditary. Bullshit. That is the most obvious choice for a best performance in a horror or sci-fi movie. Why would you not do that? Oh, well, because it was because those awards straddled years, Lupita Nyango was also eligible for us. So you'd say,

Because it straddles years. Guess who also didn't win? That's so stupid. Lupida Nyango for us. That's so stupid. Also nominated, well, maybe they decided to go campy because also nominated was who? Octavia Spencer for Ma.

Octavia Spencer doesn't win for Ma. Nor does Nicole Kidman for Destroyer or Bree Larson for Captain Marvel or somehow we're including Emily Blood for Mary Poppins returns also didn't win. A side by and horror. Great. You're going to be so mad at who wins.

It does fit sci-fi and horror. It is Jamie Lee Curtis for the first David Gordon Green Halloween. Have I radicalized you yet? I understand the logic of a Saturn voter in going that way. I just maybe need to move on. I don't see how you can see Tony Collette and Hereditary and Lupita Njango and us. and give it to anybody but either one, like one of them.

What the fuck? Saturn Awards, you're on notice. Even if you weren't before, you're on notice. All right. Anything else before we move into the IMDB game? You know what? Good movie.

Chris, all I wanted to say, finally, in our last note, I never wanted to be your mother. All right, let other listeners know about the IMDB. She should say that to all her gay fans screaming mother at her. I should say I did get to meet Tony Collette

after a screening, that campaign event that I talked about that I was invited to, it was a screening of hereditary and then a little like wine reception where everybody got to like crowd around Tony Collette. And she has a reputation for being extremely wonderful and lovely. She was extremely wonderful and lovely.

It was a lot of people around there So it wasn't like you had like one-on-one time with Tony Colette. And so everybody kind of like took turns asking their question. And it was a little bit like, oh, God, am I going to have to like, and I knew that like I couldn't get out of this whole thing without mentioning the hours because it's my favorite movie. And I felt, and so it was like the duty to me specifically. Well, and like it had gotten past me. I had sort of asked something about hereditary, which I don't remember. And it had gotten past to me.

And then I was like, oh, fuck, I can't not ask her about the hours. And so before she had, like, moved on to, like, a different group, I was just like, I just need to say, the hours is my favorite movie. I loved you so much in it. And she was already, I think, sort of like mentally moved on beyond our group. She was like, oh, thank you. And then, like, totally moved on. And I was just like, damn it, that didn't go the way I wanted it to. But anyway, so.

I'm sorry for that. Anyway, IMDB game. IMDB game, listeners, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actor. to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints and a surrounding group of naked cult members.

Amazing. Throwing points on you. Who doesn't love that? All right, Chris, would you like to give you? first or guess first? I feel like you've been guessing first a lot, so I'm going, no, you've been, I don't know. I'm going to, you're going to guess first. Okay, all right, what do you have?

So I did the Ari Aster thing, looking at Ari Aster filmmakers, who else to choose, but from this year's bow is Freid Joaquin Phoenix, your favorite, who we have some. not done? That's wild. That's wild. All right. I'm going to say, Joker. Uh, sorry, wrong tap.

Incorrect. Fuck. What a gift to me specifically. I'm going to say Gladiator. Gladiator is correct. Okay. Gladiator. God, it's so shocking.

Walk the line? Walk the line. Correct. Interesting. but not joker fascinating okay all right wakene a phoenix um okay i don't think beau is afraid's gonna be there i don't know it'd be such a joke on me if you were never really here. Is that the title of it? You are never really here? Yes. Right? Yeah. The, the, yeah. It would be such a joke on me if that was there.

It's not going to be something like early Joaquin, like to die for, inventing the Abbots or anything like that. The master. The master, correct. So what do I have? You have one wrong guess, and you have one more to go. One more to go. Okay. Okay. So. Mr.

Joaquin of Phoenix. Yeah, Mr. Joaquin, Phoenix. The village. Incorrect. So you're going to get your year, which is probably going to get you there. It's 2013. 2013.

Oh, it's her. Yes. Interesting. Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, her. Her. My two favorite performances by him. What a gift. What a gift to memes that was.

Ladies and gentlemen, her. My two favorite Joaquin performances are the two that you got last. Her and... The Master. And the Master. Interesting. That's an interesting, like, dichotomy of favorite Joaquins. That's not a bad...

I mean, it is... very odd that Joker is not there, but that I do think is a pretty decent known for him. I think my two favorite Joaquins are Gladiator and Signs, which also have an interesting dichotomy, like two very difficult. He's really good in signs. He gets to be funny. I do think he's a funny. He does. He does. I like him so much in that movie. All right, for you, I delved into that big mishmash of actresses who were contenders in 2018. We have never done the great New York Film Critic Circle Prize winner of that year, Regina Hall. Oh, wow.

Okay, so the question, a girl's trip is here. Yes. Good. The question is, how many scary movies are there? That is the question. That is the question. You didn't mention any TV, so that Showtime show that I feel like I would like, but nobody seemed to. I did, Black Monday.

I saw the first season of that, and I thought it was really. good, and then I kept meaning to keep watching, and it was a pandemic and whatever. I do wonder if Support the Girls is there, just for, like, SEO reasons. I'm going to say Support the Girls. Not Support the Girls. Fortunately not. Go watch it currently on Criterion Channel. She's so good.

So is Haley-Lie Richardson. Both of them on my ballot that year. Okay, I'll just say Scary Movie. Scary Movie, correct. Is Scary Movie 2 on there? Not Scary Movie 2. So that's your second strike. Your two years are 2006 and 2009.

Okay. So this is still like scary movie territory because like, did she stay on through 4? I am not the scary movie scholar that you might think I am. Is Scary Movie 2 the one that Cindy, this is Bone, Cindy, this is. This is a skeleton. See, this is where I come into a problem. I don't know. Perfect joke.

Cindy, this is bones. This is a skeleton. Okay. 0-6-09. She's not always in comedies. That's the hard thing. But, like, you don't remember her from non-comodies. But I have to believe that one of these isn't a comedy.

But 0-609. She's not really in any horror movies. Would you like me to start delivering hints? Sure. Well, you were on the right track when you said what the defining question of this was going to be. Are they comedies or not? One of them is. Okay, so one is and one isn't.

Yeah. Which one isn't? 09. 09. 09. But I think you gave up, you gave up too soon on a... Scary Movie 3? Not Scary Movie 3.

Scary movie 4. Scary movie 4. There you go. Scary movies, 1 and 4 are on this list. Okay, so, 09, it's a non-comedy. Right. It's a real meat and potatoes Thriller seemingly

I've never seen it It is from a name director But not like I don't know how good a sense of Autorship This director has So like a studio director Yeah

Like but like probably more of a sense of autorship Than we probably give him credit for Um Was this like a Tony Scott? It's not, but I think this guy makes Tony Scott-esque movies, not in the same way, but like, I think all of his movies, you could be like, oh, I could see Tony Scott have directed, having directed that. It's not like Gore Verbinski. This one particularly, I could be like, oh, I could have seen a Tony Scott version. Right, right, right.

It's, um, it's not Michael Bay. It's, um, because that's like. It may be rhymes. It may be rhymes. Rhymes Billy Ray No He does not make action movies

He makes like legal thrillers Right Um David Gray She was in the Babylon music video No but you're so close David No

David Slay Um No Gray So oh James Not James Gray Not James Gray Not James Gray

different vibe different gray yeah f gary gray f gary gray yes um it's probably the one movie of his

that is like the most anonymous but like I definitely remember it existing this would have been the one situated between be cool in o five and straight out of

Compton in 2015 yeah so it stars an Oscar winner and somebody who I don't think will ever be nominated for an Oscar because they're Regina played I would imagine the Oscar winner's wife it's not um

Is it, is it Denzel? It's not Denzel. Because he's been an, what was his F. Gary Gray movie? His F. Gary Gray movie was, F. Gary Gray, who directed Roman J. Israel? That is, um, oh my God. It's not F. Gary Gray. Okay. What is Denzel's F.Cray Gray movie? Will Smith?

It's not Will Smith. Jesus. So... Maybe F. Gary Gray's never directed Denzel Washington. That sounds insane. Didn't he direct, like, out of time? What year would that have been? Like, O3?

Let's see. No, he directed... Is this... No, out of time is Carl Franklin, I think. No, a man apart is Vin Diesel. Out of time is Carl Franklin. A man apart is Vin Diesel, not Denzel, Washington. He's maybe never directed Denzel Washington.

That's crazy. Weird. I should watch out of time. I've never seen it. Because I like Carl Franklin's movies. I do, too. All right, anyway, Oscar winner, an acting pariah, sort of. Not really.

That's too mean. That's too mean. No. No, I mean, these two people, it's two different people. An Oscar winner and he's not a pariah. he's just not a actor Oh, why did I think that this person who will never win an Oscar

you were saying was a woman? No. No, two male leads, two male leads. From 09. From 09. James Franco. No, no. This person hasn't done bad things.

He's just like not regarded as a very good actor. He's actually kind of having a weird like Liam Neeson-esque renaissance as if like, oh, you're just going to like make like dumb action movies now that's fun that would be Stallone no no lower profile than that

this person like tried to be in a musical in the a otts and it like went poorly Russell Crow no more poorly surprisingly really yeah who got like worse musical reviews than Russell

oh plus Russell Crow was not the odds someone in cats no aughts the aughts the odds the aughts the aughts who did that go poorly for although cats isn't not a bad avenue if you want to this person is in cats no Andrew Lode Weber

yeah Andrew Lode Weber in the odds oh Gerard Butler yes I do not know Gerard Butler movies that's why this taken so long yeah but I think that the all abiding citizen

fuck yes Good job. Jamie Fox. I have never seen that movie. How did you pull that? I would not have been able to pull that. I knew Gerard Butler and Jamie Fox were in it. Amazing.

Amazing. I've never seen it. All right. Well, you got your... Didn't know she was in that movie. She plays either his wife or his sister. They share the same last name. So I would imagine his wife.

His wife. All right. Well, there we have it. That's our episode, Chris. We've already gone too long. God. Hail Payman. This is probably going to be a close to three-hour episode. What the fucker? Okay. There's a little bit of airtime that we can cut out when we were...

We'll be fine. Our listeners love us. I don't know. If you want more this at Oscar Bush... I think a good portion of our listeners are going to see the running time hit their podcast feed for this movie and be very happy. I hope so. If you want more this at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this at oscarbuzz.tum.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. You should also, if you haven't already, hop on to our Patreon. This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. We'll have a time. Chris, where can the listeners find more of you?

Twitter and Letterbox at Chris V. File. That's F. E.I.L. You can find me on Twitter and Letterboxed at Joe Reed, Reed spelled R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Meevias, for their technical guidance and Taylor Cole for our theme song. Please remember, you can rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever else you get your podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility.

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