This Had Oscar Buzz - 267 – Heat (with Roxana Hadadi!) (Patreon Selects)

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

This week, our first film selected by one of our sponsor-tier Patreon subscribers arrives, and we brought back Vulture’s Roxana Hadadi to celebrate. In 1995, audiences were hyped to finally see an onscreen showdown between Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro in Michael Mann’s Heat. But what promised to be a standard actioner on paper (on top … Continue reading "267 – Heat (with Roxana Hadadi!) (Patreon Selects)"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Maryland Hack and friends. Dick Pooh. From the godfather to scent of a woman. From Raging Bull to Goodfellas. Assume they got our phones. Assume they got our houses.

Assume they got us. Their performances have created a legacy of landmark films. I want full surveillance. It's 24 hours. Round o'clock. We never close. seven days a week. Now, for the first time, America's two most electrifying actors collide. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast shaking our ass in grief over our dead horse.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I am here as always with my counterpart from the other side of the arbitrary social divide that is cop and criminal, Chris Fyle. Hello, Chris. I'm really upset. I am mad that I didn't get you screaming, that I have a great ass. Well, I should have, actually, now that you mentioned that. All right, we're bringing in our guest right now because I need to have our guest's opinion when I say this. We have with us. Of course, we are doing Michael Mann's Heat, so we had to bring in. There was nobody else we could have with us. Returning for the first time since our mud episode, Vultures, TV critic, and all-around

pop culture commenter the great Roxana Hadati. Welcome, Roxanna. Thank you guys so much. You know, the introduction you gave me before, like, the TV critic stuff, it also could have been Bilga, Abiri. Fair.

Bilga loves heat so much, like, the most. Shout out to Bilga. Bilga is sort of pop culture's preeminent heat commentator. Michael Man. But also, yes, exactly. My thing with the she's got a great-ass scene, beyond everything else, beyond the fact that Al Pacino has said later that he played the characters if he had a coke problem, which like, obviously, beyond the fact that Chris right now has a background of bug-eyed Al Pacino in the middle of shouting that is he starts to say, he starts to say because she's got a big ass, right?

Like you can see him stop saying it. And to me, I'm like, that's sweet of Al Pacino to think of Ashley Judd in that moment and be like, I'm not trying to say she has a big ass. She just has a great ass. And like, this was the 90s. This was the 90s when big ass was not, you know, valued in our culture the ways that it can be today when I have called quite controversially with Chris File. I've called Barry Keogan and Saltburn a fat ass short king because I do. think he has a fat ass in that movie. Like, parentheses, complimentary. And Chris is trying to tell me that Barry, Barry's ass in Saltburn was not everything that I made it out to be.

Does Barry Keogun have a big ass in that movie, or does he just know how to move his hips? That's all I have to say about this. I don't remember it being particularly big. I mean, I remember what happened. Obviously. It's a shapely bum, but it's not, you know. Yeah, it's shapely.

I don't think it's big. Maybe it's just in the sliding scale of Hollywood leading men. You know what I mean? Who's got like a real like juicy ass? Like can we name some people? Because I'm trying to think. I mean, I was promised Harvey Gienn.

Well, Harvey Gien, sure, sure. Yeah. Chris Evans has like a real like like shapely is probably how I would describe that. Like that's the sweatpants scene when he's like hitting the heavy bag or whatever. Like that's good one. There's stuff back there. There's stuff back. There's somebody, like, right on the tip of my tongue, and I'm going to not meant to be literal.

And I have to think about this important essential question. While we are, though, I'm glad we're on the subject of saltburn, though, because you have written perhaps the definitive article on saltburn as far as I am concerned by talking about Jacob Alluredy's eyebrow piercing. When I previously in this podcast, I have talked to Chris about how my ideal sort of. hot guy fantasy from my like teens and early 20s was a guy who had an eyebrow piercing and one of those small little thin hoops in the gay ear. You know, the, and so like Jacob Allorty in Saltburn, I think Emerald Fennell had like found a way to access my own personal subconscious. And so I want to, I want to have you sort of hold court a little bit on your feelings

about Jacob Allorty's eyebrow piercing. I, well, thank you so much for this incredible praise. Of course. The eyebrow piercing is so good because I think it does tap into your brain of like a certain kind of hot male figure, which I don't know if that figure really works like in 2023. But that's why the 2006 choice is so perfect because like all of us were all like old. And we all remember the 2006 feeling of seeing a guy with an eyebrow piercing. You were like, oh, my goodness, he's like sassy and like a little bit edgy and like, will he kiss me? Did I ever tell, Chris, have I ever told the story on this podcast of the one class I took in college where I, on the very first day, I sat next to this really cute boy whose hair was dyed like fire engine red and had an eyebrow piercing.

And I intentionally sat next to him because, like, I was still, and this is still like, I'm in college, but I'm not out yet. And I was probably around that time where I was like, oh, I need to like seek out vectors to, like, force me out of the closet, even if I was like unconsciously doing it. So I sat next to this boy and we became like, it wasn't a class with a lab, but we were like project, we were partners on like whatever projects that class would have you do because we were sitting next right next to each other. And so we were friendly and we were doing projects and whatnot. And I even think, like, we, like, he, like came to my house to do a project one time or whatever. And then at some point during the semester, I found out he was dating a girl. And I was so crushed. And I was one of those things where it's just like, first of all, like, bummer.

But also, like, my intuition was so off. And, like, that was when I first, like, really was getting, like, oh, my, like, these, these superficial indicators are not all they are cracked up to be. And just because a boy looks different, doesn't mean. that he's necessarily queer. I do think eyebrow piercing, especially in the aughts and mid-aughts, does read as possible bisexual? Yes, I agree. I mean, it probably was not out of the question, but I was certainly not in any space,

confidence-wise, to be testing those waters, unfortunately. Right, to be like, hey, have you considered? Have you ever considered? I couldn't help but wondering when I looked at your eyebrow piercing. Did I love him? Was I in love with them? Who can say? Who could say?

But yeah, the movie, like, largely, I think plot-wise does not work. But all those little details, like the eyebrow piercing and, like, the ominous butler, like, those are all fun. And I think do. But that's like the bizarre, I don't know. That's like the bizarre balance of this movie where it's like, I don't think your messaging does anything that you want it to do. I think as a message movie, I think you're right that it doesn't do anything. I think Saltburn is an incredibly fun movie, and I will keep it in my heart that way. It's a movie that's like a mid-aughts Tumblr board.

100%. Even though its song and movie choices violate the time space continuum, and I will stand by that. All of those songs are from 2008. Zambi Jalan has an Emerald Fennell Voodoo doll now. I swear, he watched that movie and is like he keeps putting out a hit on her. I think it was Kyle Turner that said it was straight camp that thinks it's gay. That's maybe true. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with that. If you have your character, like, slurping up come from a bathroom drain, like, you're not not queer. You know what I mean? Like, there is, you know, there's something going on there. There's something going on there. But, yeah, it made me, I mean, Priscilla is what made me think, like, oh, Jacob

Allorty, like, doesn't suck because I'd only seen him in euphoria in which he's playing a bad character, but he's also playing him badly. I don't watch Euphoria. I have no business watching Euphoria. No, it's purely a professional thing that I... Even though that's the only way you can have a hit movie these days is to cast somebody from Euphoria. Yeah, pretty much. But in this and Priscilla, Jacob Allorty, good. Yeah. Okay. Moving on to our next

pre-heat topic, Roxanna. This also comes from the Vulture Slack that we were talking about. before we started recording. People on the Vulture Slack didn't know. This is, okay, pre, like, fair warning listeners. I'm about to obnoxiously talk about promotional swag that we get at the end of the year. Now, not all of us get it and not all of us get everything. That's true.

Some of us get things that others don't. Some of us, like, it's a very kind of like, who knows what mailing list you're on. Right. Netflix's. We're not out here, you know, constantly post. We're not people on this podcast who are constantly posting. photos of all of our swag. Right.

Do not yell at us. You are not allowed to keep the swag. There is like a limit of swag that you can keep. Interesting. As a freelancer, I keep it all. I don't keep it all, actually, because there's a thing. And our friend Jordan Hoffman has written about this before, about the promotional swag that Netflix used to send out exclusively were these like fantastically huge and heavy

and cumbersome coffee table books. Yeah. Beautiful. But like, what am I going to do with all these coffee table books? Like, at past, like, once they start accumulating, I donated them. Like, I should, I don't know if I should say this. I donated them all to my local libraries. Like, don't tell Netflix, I guess. But I guess now people at my local. It's better than reselling them on eBay, which I see them being resold on eBay all the time. And at the same time, it's like, if you are a victim of our industry and you need to flip a coffee table book you got for free for $200. more power to you actually. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Absolutely. But so Netflix this year, I've only gotten one coffee table book so far. I got a Rustin coffee table book. They've been like diversifying their swag, which is really fun. One of the things, the Nyad box was my favorite. You got like a really nice water bottle. But then you also got this large sort of cloth, big microfiber cloth

with the figure of a swimming person and Nyad written on it. And so in our, group chat. Me and Chris and Katie Rich, we were sort of puzzling over this. And I think Chris was the one who was like, I think it's a towel. And the rest of us were sort of unsure. And then my friend Matthew Rodriguez, who has also previously been on the show, was like, no, I talked to my partner. It's definitely a towel. It's one of the, it's like this like incredibly absorbent towel that like professional swimmers use. And so, Roxanna, you on the Vulture Slack were the only person who had that intel. because people on the vulture slack thought it was tapestry, which, who could blame them. Yeah. It does kind of look like a wall hanging. I must be 100% honest. I opened it. And I was like, what is this?

A tapestry? And then my partner who actually like exercises and like takes care of his body, he was like, it's clearly a towel. I don't know if it's clearly a towel, but it is a towel. It is most definitely a towel. And I've been using it. I will be using it as a flag and I will be waving it during Pride season. I've been using it as a towel after I shower, and I will tell you, it is very absorbent, and it dries incredibly quickly. So, like, I have been fully Nyad towel-pilled at this point, so I'm into it.

Thank you, Netflix. I just think it's so funny that all of us were like, what other piece of swag has puzzled us this much? That's the real question. It's true. There's an answer. More conversation piece swag choices, studios. Like, send us more things that, like, require a group conversation to figure out what they are. How many film critics does it take to figure out the mystery?

What a channel is! All of us were like, what do we do, hang it? Like, I'm so glad. I'm so glad we are getting into these topics on the podcast. This is essential. Essential. All right. Roxanna, as I say.

at the beginning of this podcast. To me, you were the only choice, and I know Chris gruses me on that, to talk about heat. You are the person who I, Bilga Berry, absolutely, but of the people I, like, chat with semi-regularly in DMs and whatnot, you are my go-to for, like, Michael Mann fans. And, like, when I sort of, like, good-naturedly, sometimes sort of, like, roll my eyes at Michael Mann fans,

I have to be like, Roxanna, I really like Roxanne. So like... It's a movie that like other movies we have recently done, even ones that we like, it is a movie that there is a high capacity

for movies, for people to be annoying about it online. Yeah, that's fair. And we had to have you on because you're not annoying about it. Oh, thank you so much. Well, and it's one of those things where it's like,

I don't want to be like, I don't want to be like setting a trap where it's like me and Chris who like, are not really Michael Mann fans and sort of like think a lot of his movies can be overrated. I didn't want to like lure you in here and then be like, defend your movie. But I'm really curious to see this movie through your eyes because watching it again this time, there are definitely things I really like about it.

And I easily see what so many people see in this movie, especially I imagine any aspiring filmmaker looks at this movie and they're so wide-eyed and impressed at how he pulled a lot of these scenes off. that like of course but like there is a poetry to this movie that sort of escapes me and a masculineness to this movie that I cannot deny turns me off and in a way it's like and I don't want to think of myself as somebody who's being like it's oh boys I don't want to see it you know what I mean like that kind of thing like I don't want to I feel like that's a little I don't want to be that simplistic and so I'm eager to talk about this movie in a dialogue with somebody who can maybe pull out some of my more nuanced opinions other than just like

boys like the movie, which is reductive and wrong. But like, why, but you have the fact that like we asked you to. Why is heat such a big one for you broadly? Man, this is like a lot of lead up to think about. I know. I'm sorry. It's okay. It gave me time to prepare an answer, which is like a two-part answer.

And the first part of this answer is, like, you are 100% correct that I think it is, like, perceived not wrongly as, like, a movie for boys. And we sort of talked about this with mud, right? Like, what my partner has discussed is my taste in films, which is just guys being dudes. Right. So, like, there is, like, a certain level of just, like, masculine stuff happening. There's the big shootout. There's, like, a car chase. There's a discussion of, like, what men do for their family.

Like, there's all that stuff, right? Yeah. And I, like, I naturally just respond to all that stuff. I, maybe I, I don't know, maybe I just prefer men. I don't know, whatever. But I think... My preferred is movies about women being unknowable to themselves. So maybe that's, like, a totally different coin.

Yeah. Entirely. And each of us have our own, like, weird, like, little microgenres. But something that I respond to... with man's films in particular is I really like his portrait of people who are obsessed with something, like obsessed with something larger than themselves that they can sort of bury themselves in. And it's about like simultaneously the erasure of self in this like larger calling, whether that is crime, whether that is.

is containing crime, whatever. So it's simultaneously about, like, losing yourself in that. And yet also holding on to this, like, fierce individuality and this idea that, like, only you can exist. Like, these forces outside of you can exist, and you can lose yourself in them, and you can be caught in this, like, deathmatch between, like, you and your nemesis.

But at the end of the day, the only person you can rely on is yourself. And I'm just, like, really drawn, I think, to those two disparate ideas, which is, like, you're losing yourself in something that is bigger than you, but you're also desperately trying to hold on to what makes you, you. So I just, there's something about that balance, which I think man does in, like, all of his movies, which I really respond to. And I also think, and I've, like, said this jokingly on Twitter, but I actually believe it. I think he's probably like our most romantic older male director. Yeah. I think he is genuinely like very interested in what men and women say and don't say to each other.

And like the way that relationships can both be, again, extremely like obsessive and like sensual and romantic and also unable. to sustain those forces and sort of like tearing each other apart. So there's a lot of like, I think his movies are all just about like the friction of trying to understand who you are when at the same time you're devoting your life to something that is larger than you. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think that was my favorite stuff about Ferrari.

Yes. I still haven't seen Ferrari, but go on. Ferrari. I want to hear your thoughts on Ferrari. Oh, okay. We'll get into it. We'll get into it. I'm very with you on this, even though I can run hot and cold on Michael Mann. And like, that's, I think some of the, I think all of that is the best stuff about heat and the poetry of the movie. I think my holdout on heat is just the plot. Like, I love all of that, but I need it, like, to hinge around more interesting plot machin.

which is like I realize that that's half of the that's half of missing the boat on heat is like if you're interested in the plot of heat yeah you're not really signing up for the sort of archetypal thing of like the bank heist as like yeah like I just wish don't you think he made it the archetype that it is now in that genre of cinema like hugely like yes like it is a a sort of pillar of that genre but even going into the movie I think there is some sort of cowboy ideal of a bank heist in terms of like Pacino had already been in, you know, this iconic bank heist movie and Dog Day Afternoon and stuff like that. And there is, I think, an acknowledgement in the movie, even if sort of just, you know, unspokenly, that this is this sort of great, you know, one of the great types of movies for, especially like movies. for dudes, right? Like, movies about dudes being dudes. And it's just like, and it's this, you know, it's the bank job. You know what I mean? Like, you don't really have to explain it more than that. It's just like, why are we doing this?

Because that's like reasons. You know what I mean? Like, there are no. No, quite literally, this is a movie about, well, we have to do this because reasons. Like, this is who I am. The last job. I don't, you know, like, I think that it is playing with a lot of those, like, cliches. but I think it is doing it in a way

that at least makes me think about like okay this is going to get like too revealing for myself but like as a person I am prone to wondering like what the fuck are we living for like what is any of this for and so I try to like transfer

that like listlessness and aimlessness into like a larger thematic belief system that makes me think like surely what we do is valid because it is serving a larger purpose. So I feel like I personally am always battling my own inner loneliness. And maybe it's too far of a reach to say that I think this film is about men who like choose to be lonely and then realize that that loneliness is empty and they need more, but then also realize that their actions have inhibited them from ever having more, that's the shit that like, no, that's exactly what this movie is about, though. I don't think that that's like, no, I don't think that's the stuff of this movie. Yeah. I mean, because this is a movie

that's like about dudes, but it's like dudes, a dudes being dudes, but the dudes are sitting around being like, man, it sucks to be a dude. Like, yeah. And I think that's why, like, as much of my man is like the guy's guy, I do think in a lot of ways that is not entirely a correct reading of the fact that I think that he is like interrogating masculinity all the time, like all of his films. And I think he is really interested in that moment where a cold, closed off male figure who is told that he can only succeed with that kind of persona, realize, that it's bullshit and falls in love. Like, all of his movies sort of have that moment.

And, like, Miami Vice has that, like, collateral has that. Last of the Mohicans has that. And Black Hat has that. So I just, I think he's really fascinated in, like, the choice that you have to make between, like, living for yourself and living for the idea of yourself. And I think those are, like, different things. And he's always trying to navigate. the space between them.

So, yeah, it's definitely like dude shit. I just think it's like, you know, like when people say that like, when people say that like, den of thieves is as good as heat, I'm like, please fucking leave. Or like the town,

which very much copies, like, the bank heist. Like, I just think, I just think a heat is far more, like, internally minded. Like, the heist is incredibly important.

But I feel like, The heist is, like, very secondary to what this movie is doing with the central, like, romantic relationships. The thing that you said that sort of that I responded to most is this idea of the individual sort of making the space for himself amid what he has to do. Because my favorite Michael Mann movies are probably The Insider and Ali, which sort of makes me a cliche because they're his two Oscar movies. You know what I mean? I don't think that's cliched. No, I think I honestly think that's different from what most people are saying. And the thing about the insider is, is that Russell Crow has to be, has to act as an individual, right?

He cannot act as, like, even with 60 minutes or whatever, that, like, trying to provide him with cover or trying to provide him with some sort of a safety net, ultimately, he has to make the decision to act completely alone to take on. this, like, massively huge and, you know, a near-unbreakable corporate villain. And he, like, so it's then the choice. And I think the movie is sort of asking what does it require of a person to make that individual choice? 100%. And I think when you were describing, you know, I believe that's exactly. And Ali is a little bit different. Ali is, and I, I, now I'm, I don't think I'm wrong when I say this, but like, correct me if I am.

Ali is his only real movie about a real person, right? I think that's, I think primarily, right? What's that? Oh, public enemies. Yeah, good point. Although God help me if I can remember a single thing about public enemies at this point. I think public enemies is better than we all remember, but I think it's difficult to get past the Johnny Depp of it all. Probably.

The bank-high stuff is, I think at least the bank stuff, I've, Heist stuff is more interesting to me in public enemies than it is in heat. He is almost like, I want him to just allow all of these characters to be who they are and allow him to go full, like, Shakespearean tragedy, Greek theater with this movie where everybody is talking about their feelings. And I feel like it's kind of rootless in the actual action of it. And like, I watch this movie and I almost want no-Bankai stuff. And I just want them all talking about being how they hate their lives and they hate the corner that they've backed themselves into.

But don't you think that's the decision scene where they have to decide and you get the great size more, the action is the juice? Like, I feel like that scene is like exactly that where they're all talking about like why they're doing this. But no, that's, I mean, like, that's the stuff in this movie that I love and I do really gloss on to and that I think is great. I just, I wish I cared more about what was actually happening in the story. But to sort of finish my thing on Ali, like, very briefly is, no, no, you can't. That seems to me like the only kind of biopic that man could possibly do, which is a person who has no peer. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Could not help, but act as an individual. Because first of all, he's in an individual sport. But second of all, Muhammad Ali had no, had. no peer, had no collective way he could act. So he is acting as an individual amid the sporting, you know, the sport of boxing, the sporting culture in general, the American culture in general, the American government and like all that sort of stuff. And so that to me also sort of tracks with this idea of how does one person, you know, make their decisions to, you know, act within this structure.

I love your read of Ali because it makes me so curious what you think about Ferrari when you see it. Oh, interesting. Oh, right. Ferrari, of course, is a jail person. Yeah. Because Ferrari, Chris, would you agree that Ferrari is sort of like playing with the same, like Ferrari as a singular figure within like post-war Italy and like the pressures economically, socially and personally that he has?

What do you think, Chris? we need your take yeah 100% um that was kind of i mean the the marriage stuff was my favorite stuff about Ferrari imagine the scenes with penelope Cruz were my favorite thing of that movie um she's terrific she's it's this is what would happen if we saw penelope Cruz give her lady macbeth give her harper pit we would get this performance um uh yes i i think of his filmography it is maybe close it's it's probably somewhere between ali and public enemies um yeah all right i would say just in terms of aesthetics of like what the character dynamic is a lot of what chow described like you were just saying roxana is it in terms of like they're both also sport movies yeah so there's that but again

like singular sport movies right like you're entirely in charge of like your own death to a certain point, because it's not a team, really. Like, they race as a team, but they're really racing individually. You're in a box. Yeah. They're in a box. You're contained. You're trapped, basically.

Fuck, Ferrari's so good. Okay. Anyway. Roxanna, we're going to have you deliver the 60-second plot description for Heat, but before you do, so you can take a second and maybe collect your thoughts while Chris, I'm going to ask you to promote our Patreon turbulent brilliance for a minute. What is the number one reason that brought us here? Listeners, if you don't know about our Patreon, we haven't hyped it as much because much to our surprise,

our sponsor level, we call them our Sugar Daddy's, basically immediately sold out. And if you, we currently, as of recording, have two slots that opened up. If you want to sign up at that level, we very, very much appreciate you. But because our sugar daddies have consecutively for three months been at that tier, they got to pick an episode on the main feed. And the first response that we got was from James telling us we are doing heat. So this is a fun way for those listeners to have some control over the show. James, we thank you.

We celebrate you. James wants to share his Oscar origin story Which any of these episodes that we do It'll be a little bit of fun Where you can hear from our listeners And their Oscar origin story Like we usually have with first-time guests James talked a little bit

About coming from an evangelical background And movies being the source to connect with family Here's what James says I don't have one single Oscar ceremony It's more of a slow build from 97 to 99. James, relatable. I wanted to watch the

1997 Oscars, but I didn't even see Titanic until after it won best picture. I watched the 1998 Oscars where I had more of the movies and learned more about how the Oscars work. I can make fun of the time

interpretive dance score performances, but I also love them. James, absolute same. 1999 was the first year I saw nearly everything and was, shall we say, conversant, even though I was still a

high school student in Ohio. James, get at me where you were in Ohio. 1997 was my year, and that's when I became a film person for life. I don't know that I have anything else to say about the 1999 Oscars other than it was the best year for film in my lifetime, and they still managed to get them all wrong. Yeah. James, me, maybe agree with you. But James, thank you for giving us heat to talk about today. Yes, thank you, James. We have course had to bring Roxana on because all of the reasons we've discussed. But once again, join us at This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. That is our Patreon. You can join for $5 a month or if there are slots open at the sponsor level, you can do so as well. And what do you get

when you're over there, Joe? We get two regular episodes every month. On the first of the month, you're going to get exceptions. Movies that follow the This Had Oscar Buzz rubric of disappointment and high expectations, but I managed to get an Oscar nomination or two. Most recently, this month, we have an episode on The Mirror has two faces. I've also done movies like Australia, The Lovely Bones, Pleasantville, and Nine. And then on the 15th of the month, you're getting what we call an excursion, which is detour and deep dive into this had Oscar buzz ephemera. We've talked about my experience at Magic Mike Live, the greatest night of my life. Recapped the 1996 MTV Movie Awards, which we can kind of sort of talk about in this episode.

We did a recap of Hollywood Reporter's Actress Roundtable from 2016, and then we're peppering in some random call-in episodes where our patrons can call in, ask us a question, and we will answer it. So sign up for this at Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance over at patreon.com slash this ad awesome. I will also say if you are a member of the Patreon, check out the comments on each of the episodes that we post there because there's some good conversation. And also, I just today posted an update in our Mirror Has Two Faces thread about, I found out where they filmed the, where her apartment building is in the movie and where they filmed those insane end credits where Barbara Streisand and Jeff Bridges are dancing. and humping each other, I'm just going to say it, on the streets of New York City. So I managed to find the address of the place, and I also found a fantastic New York Times article that talks about the tumult that Barbara and her crew brought to the Upper West Side in 1996. So definitely worth the price of admission to chat with us in the comments on the Patreon. That article is definitely one of the things Ms. Streisand leans to, like, kind of nods to in the audiobook.

She's like, people talked about how we didn't talk to the neighborhood, but we did. It wasn't that big of a deal. Something like that. It's an amazing article. Worth fork and over $5 just to chat about it. To go and talk about it with the rest of our patron. Exactly. Exactly.

All right. So we are talking about heat in this episode from 1995, directed by Michael Mann. Written by Michael Mann. We'll talk about the TV movie origins of this and whatnot. starring Al Pacino and Robert De Niro. We will definitely talk about the historic nature of that pairing. Also, Val Kilmer, Ashley Judd, Ashley Judd's lip liner in one scene, which I thought was very important. So good.

I love that this movie puts a blonde people together so much that it has to make one of them a blonde people. Trust me, I'm going to talk about that. John Voigt, John Voigt's Mullet, Tom Seismore, Diane Vennora, Amy Brennaman's accent. Natalie Portman, Michael T. Williamson, West Studi, Ted Levine, William Fickner, Dennis Haysbert, Tom Noonan, a weasily little sliver of Jeremy Piven. There are a few other cameo-ing actors. Oh, my God, Hank Azaria. I totally forgot. God, Hank Azaria. Hank Azaria not being ready for the, she's got a great-ass moment. Henry Rollins and his big ass neck. Oh, we got to talk about Henry Rollins. That was my letterbox review of this. It's like, this is like, this is a

a cinema classic of the Al Pacino beats the shit out of Henry Rollins genre, which was a wild time. A wild time. Just a wild time had by all. This premiered, opened wide on December 15th, 1995. It

finished, I'm trying to remember this off the top of my head. It finished in third place. The movie that opened number one that weekend was shit. Jamanshee, baby. Thank you. Wow. Fantastic. Imagine going to the movies and like just like punting your kids into the theater to see Jumanji and then like you're going to go see heat like that so funny because those two movies like I mean I guess that was the 90s but like they don't even it's something about them like I can't even hold them both in my mind like they

I deeply wanted you to go with the other way read this whole box office top 10 I'm about to give you whiplash we talked a little bit about in our I think it was our mirror has two faces episode on the Patreon how my thing sometimes is like I love looking at old like there's whole Twitter accounts or used to be of like they would just post newspaper ads from multiplexes and my my thought experiment is okay I can get a double feature this day what am I watching this is what I want to do it's very difficult on this box on this top 10 because here it is Jumanji okay toy story shut up heat okay father of the bride part two wow Sabrina the Sabrina remake GoldenEye the American president

Casino Ace Ventura when nature calls and then money train Dang Talk about whiplash but an impossible like two to pick At the same time Yeah

That'll take you all day Yeah You'd spend like You wouldn't see the sun If after the heat and casino double feature. You just like go before dawn and leave after sunset. Yep. As far as like when we have the Oscar conversation, put a button in Casino because

I feel like there's a little bit of these two movies canceling each other out. But we'll talk about it. I think I think you're right. Yeah. Roxanna, I do have my stopwatch out. We're going to challenge you for a 60 second plot description with the caveat that like if you've, anybody who's listened to us knows that, like, we routinely do go over. So, like, do not worry about that. But do your best. We're all counting on you. And let me know when you're ready. Okay, I'm ready. All right. Begin. So he is a movie about two sides of, like, the cop criminal divide. So there's, like, a team of, like, felons, convicts turned, like bank robbers, heist guys who are led by Robert

De Niro's Neil McCauley. Everyone in this crew is incredibly hot and they just like do crimes and like are hot. And then on the other side of it are the LAPD detectives. Oh my God, led by Al Pacino's Vincent Hanna and everyone on his team is also hot. West Studi is there. He's hot. And the two sides are like locked in this like big eternal battle of like existential dilemmas and sadness and loneliness but really there's like a bank heist and they're on opposite side of the bank heist and then they face off in a diner and that's very important as well and then they face off at the airport which is a great way to end a film and I think I'm almost out of time so that's my plot description hot men being sad boom only seven seconds over well done that is

quite a feat I would also argue much to what I was already saying the plot kind of doesn't matter with heat. It's just the rhythms of this existential purgatory that all of these men are basically in. And the women that surround them as far as like these poor unhappy women. Oh man. Oh, man. I want to do them all in like their own separate sections. So but before before we get to that, you mentioned obviously, obviously, the De Niro Pacino face off in the diner and we'll get to like that scene. I know I keep saying we'll get to it. Trust me, we will get to all of these things.

I know sometimes. I know sometimes I say we'll get to it and then we forget to. But like, I promise. We will. We will. But like, so there are two diners of note in this. Plus whatever kind of establishment De Niro and Amy Brennaman meet in, which is like, is it a bookstore cafe or is that two separate places?

Because we see them in the bookstore. I think it's the bookstore cafe. Shout out to Borders, which used to have. Yes. Yes. So besides that, there are two diner scenes, the one where Pacino and De Niro meet in. But there's also a place that actually shows up a couple of times. And I think it's the same place that the Mulholland Drive diner scene takes place in.

I'm like pretty sure. Okay. It might be. Get at me, listeners, if you know. I tried to look in the IMDB trivia, but like, no surprise, all of the IMD. DB trivia is like people used to think that De Niro and Pacino weren't in the same room when they filmed this and yada yada, you know, like all

this stuff like, yes. These are all the like real life like bank robberies that were inspired by the heat shootout. We want to know the diner. That's the important. I want to know not the diner with the big scene. The diner that they

hustle Wayne grow out of at the beginning and then there's a scene towards the end where they're also back at that diner in the daytime. Joe, you're ignoring, you're forgetting the most important part of that first diner scene, which is Tom Seismore. She stares down that one guy. It's hot. Extremely hot mood.

Honestly, the best moment of Tom Seismore's career. That guy looks up from his paper and he's like, what's going on over there after De Niro slams Wayne Gross head down on the table. And Seismore is like, mind your business. Yeah. It's great. You had a lot of problems. Yes. Great work in this film.

Tom was the one who was in. relationship with Heidi Flies, right? I believe so. Yes. IRL. Yeah. Sometimes I get Tom Sisemore and Michael Mann's sort of personal lives confused. Not Michael Mann.

Michael Madsen. Sorry. Sorry, Michael Madsen. I was like, Joe. No. Sorry. You know who Michael Mann, though, looks like as I watched a couple of interviews. Michael Mann and Stephen Botchko look similar enough that I'm like, sometimes I'll see a

flash of one and I'll think of it. And they're sort of like, those are interesting milieus to sort of paper over each other, the NYPD blue of it all. Yeah. What are you putting in the check? I just dropped it in the chat, according to IMDB, so major caveat. It is a restaurant called Kate Mantalini, and it is

the only location that it is credited to on IMDB, so... That's the one for the De Niro. I'm pretty sure that's the one for the De Niro Pacino scene, so yes. So it's not the other one. So it's not the one that I think is Winkies in

Malholland Drive. Listen, I'll figure it out. As I sometimes do, I'll figure it out after the podcast and I'll tweet about it. I mean, I very much would go on like an L.A. Diner's from Movies tour. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. There should be bus tours for that. Yeah.

I don't want to go to famous people's houses. Yeah. No, I don't care about that. I want famous diners and I want my typical diner order at everyone, which is Rubin, Onion, Rains, blueberry pie with ice cream. Mine is turkey club, no tomato, but with cheese. Okay. French fries unless they're crinkle cut, I don't love, like, crinkle cut or like two. Like, they need to be sort of like thin and crispy, like fries.

And then if they have lemon meringue pie, I'm getting lemon meringue pie. Like, that is, that's the biggie. If not, I'll just get a milkshake and no actual dessert. Sorry, my food. order makes me think makes it look like I'm a five year old I'm getting a ham and cheese omelet and I'm getting grits just sugar and bottomless coffee that sounds good why would that be a five year old is a five year old drinking bottomless cock well I mean I probably was um the uh no it's just like I don't know I just feel like get eggs at a diner

yeah oh yeah okay you keep a breakfast all right I do that at Denny's if I met Denny's at I'm getting moons over my hammy. That's just like, that's what's happening. I want anything that was on a flat top because, like, I don't have a flat top at home, right? That's a good point. So it's definitely like a reubant, something that needs to be, like, crisp or, like, a huge stack of pancakes because pancakes are impossible for me to do at home. I just suck at it. But if I'm at a diner in Buffalo, I might do hot dogs because I'm very regional, specific about hot dogs.

and there is a local brand here that is like the only hot dog I will really accept. And I might do, although Buffalo has that thing where they do like that Texas-style hot sauce that is that like hot brown gravy. I don't like that. Almost everybody around here likes that on their hot dogs at a diner. I don't. Give me some ketchup and relish. Are these split and put on the flat top so they get like really crispy? When they're on a flat top, yes.

Sometimes they come out of like the steamer like. drawer, you know what I mean? And they're like boiled hot dogs and like the buns are really steamed and it's like they do that at the Bills. They used to do that at least at the Bills football game. I hope they still do. This is really, um, not helping how hungry I am, but I really know into both both of your beautiful brain. All right. I do want to talk a little bit about like start at the very beginning about like the origin of this movie because Michael Mann, um, wanted to make this story since essentially forever

and the movie is like technically credited to based on the screenplay for LA Takedown which was a TV movie that he had been working on and that like but he's talked about how also like Mulholland Drive was supposed to be a series right yeah but he's talked about how like the script for he was like pulled out of uh or no that like the script for LA Takedown

was pulled out of of the script that he had for heat. But so, like, the, the, the heat script sort of existed first. And then he parceled L.A. takedown out of it. I think, I think that's how he put it. I watched a, uh, interview of him, uh, from Tiff from a few years ago. Um, but it's, it's, um, he had like embedded himself with a police detective to, like, research for some film or another that he was doing.

And that's where he got the story about a cop who sort of has this like sit down meeting with a criminal. And they like that whole scene like actually happened to this cop. I think the guy's name was actually like McCauley or whatever. So there was a real life inspiration for that. I think that happened in Chicago. And so man has always been sort of working on this. But he had 180 page draft of heat. And after he made thief, he rewrote it and was trying to shop it around.

He wanted Walter Hill to make it. And eventually, at some point, somebody was just like, no, like, you should make this. Like, I love these stories about these directors who, like, have to be told to, like, make their own passion project. Yeah, essentially. And so L.A. Takedown was a TV movie from 19. 1889. Wait, I want to see who starred in it now because I always don't let. Oh, Michael Rooker was in it. Michael Rooker was. I want to say that Bilga, of course, wrote about this last year. And he says, uh, the incident is taken from a real life event that man had learned about from Chuck Adamson, a retired Chicago police investigator and later screenwriter and producer who sometime in the 1960s ran into a man he was investigating Neil McCauley and not knowing what to do took him out for. coffee. So, yeah. So it's like, it feels like that idea then spun into this larger film endeavor. Looking at the cast list, the two main stars are actors named Scott Plank and Alex

MacArthur, of whom I am not familiar. Michael Rooker apparently played Hannah's second in command, who I guess in the movie is West Studi, maybe. Okay. Okay. Zander Berkeley, who was in the 1995 Heat as, what's his name, Ralph, who's having the affair with Pacino's wife, he played Wayne Groh in the TV movie. So that's interesting. And also, to the surprise of no one, Daniel Baldwin, was in the TV movie because, like, if I said to you, they made a TV movie of the story behind Heat in the 1980s, you would say, well, yes, Daniel Baldwin was probably an end of you like, yeah, of course.

He had to be. I mean, why not? Yeah. So obviously the big hook for this, I watched the trailer, and of course the trailer was very much like trumpeting this. This was the long-awaited first big screen pairing for Al Pacino and Robert De Niro, two actors who basically owned the 1970s. And were, I think I looked at the list,

and I think there were only two or three. years in the 1970s where neither one of them was nominated for an Oscar. I think it's like genuinely like once from like 72 to 81, I think there's like maybe two years that's that neither one of them are nominated for an Oscar. And then Pacino sort of has a famously fallow period in the 1980s and makes a comeback in the early 90s, wins the Oscar for scent of a woman, is in movies like Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, and Frankie and Johnny. And so he's kind of on this career upswing at this point. And then De Niro didn't have that like dip point until his dip sort of comes almost immediately after heat.

And when he sort of starts attaining that reputation for like, oh God, like De Niro will take any kind of role or whatever. When was Ronan? 99, 98. Okay. So I guess, yeah. So I guess, yeah, it stays solid through that. It's really the, I think it's really like the post-analyze this sort of thing. Like, analyze this is good.

But, like, I think that sort of like tips the scales to, remember he did that horror movie with Dakota Fanning? Oh my God, Vagely. Is that what it was called? Godsend. I can't remember the total of it. Something like that. But, like, that. And he also did Star Dust?

So it was like he was taking risks. Right. Yeah. Sure. 80% of the risks were like yikes. Yeah. Well, I'm like, I think immediately after he, he does the fan, which is a Tony Scott movie, which is probably one of the least like fondly remembered Tony Scott. He's talked about Tony Scott.

Yeah. Like Tony Scott is definitely a filmmaker who, whose career has, has been. evaluated and reevaluated and re-evaluated. And like, there's a lot of sort of a second more appreciative look at Tony Scott's filmography. And even in that, nobody really is like, you know, we should watch the fan again. It's just like, no, nobody really wants to watch the fan. Just forget that one existed. But then De Niro would also do things like he would be a priest in sleepers. He would be the doctor in Marvin's room. He would be, like, these really sort of like. The quorum, great expectations. Right. Small roles in things or like, and then like the real disasters.

It's like Rocky and Bullwinkle and 15 minutes with Edward Burns. He eventually... Showtime, baby. Right, showtime. Who is he within that? Is it Eddie Murphy? Eddie Murphy. Yeah. God Send is a movie that he did with Rebecca Romaine. The one I'm thinking of is called Hide and Seek.

Hide and seek. Which was a psychological thriller. Wait, De Niro turned down a role in The Departed? What was his role going to be in The Departed? Nicholson? Maybe? Or maybe like a Martin Shee?

One of the Martin Sheen, maybe? I could see that. Okay. I mean, I think Martin Sheen is the more correct choice for Roe for DeParto. Maybe that's why he turned it down. Yeah, I can't even imagine. It could not have been Nicholson, right? maybe not I mean maybe on paper you also wouldn't think Nicholson for that role but then

Nicholson is just like I'm gonna be fucking crazy if we're talking about a role on cocaine like yeah yeah yeah it was literally written with cocaine and then 2008 they do the second De Niro Pacino movie which is Righteous Kill which to me if I'm Michael Mann I like file an injunction to make that movie not happen because it's like It's not like it makes heat worse, but it makes heat even infinitesimally less special, and like that kind of sucks. Like, I think after heat, you almost want to be like you're not allowed to be in a movie together after this. Like, this has to stay like this. Because one of the things about the Pacino De Niro pairing in heat that I think kind of worked against it in the moment in terms of like its popular initial popular reception is the scene.

is a little bit underwhelming. And I don't really even say that as a negative but like it's not like not qualitatively. But like

people are showing up for fireworks Not really what that seems. That's sort of what I mean. The fact that like people would for years talk about like they're not even in the same shot together like that kind of thing.

And like people didn't really appreciate what a the like the person wrong Joe. Right. Right. Like the precision of shooting it like you know over each other's shoulders.

They're giving each other the physicality. I think people were expecting like De Niro, Pacino, like, you know, helmets in a football promo or whatever, like colliding and whatever. And I think to that degree, people, there was, I remember, an undercurrent of like, oh, I guess that's all there is. That's all there's to it. It's just the one scene and then like the end or whatever. But like, and but I think the movie's better for. that. I think the movie feels, you know, tighter and more sort of the tension to me is much more, is much better for that scene being as, quote unquote, underwhelming, you know. Are you saying that the scene is better because they show up and the vibes are off?

No, I mean, I. Please, Chris. Go ahead. No, no, no, no. I want to know. Tell me. I was just going to say, I mean, I think. it's almost like I think the mainstream the way that they would want that is not necessarily the artist they want to be and like you described at least De Niro's fallow period I think it's also true for Pacino as well after this

and you know it's kind of like for the last of a moment where they actually get to do something that's a little bit more daring, a little more unexpected and you know in terms of like honing human behavior and human psychology on screen, you know, it's a lot more delicate and interesting than they would go on to do. And I don't know. I mean, Heat is definitely a movie for a certain vibe and perspective. And you can see how, especially if you're promoting it as some showdown between two of the greatest living actors that people would be disappointed. And you know, you're releasing it at the holiday season. Maybe not the time to put out your deeply introspective three-hour tone poem. That's the most perfect time to release those, though.

How dare you? But it's so funny because it's like when we talk about like showdown, I'm like, as an acting, as an acting showdown, this scene fucking rips, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Both of them are doing like such layered menace. but they understand each other, but they're not going to pull on each other in this fucking diner.

Like, I think what works so much for this scene for me is that they're both professionals. And that's ultimately what this scene is about, right? It's about, like, the personal, professional divide and, like, how the two of them can respect each other for both being great at their jobs, and yet they're diametrically opposed to each other's existence. So it's interesting.

Was it promoted? Was it mispromoted? Like, we've talked before about how, like, drive was mispromoted as, like, a Fast and the Furious movie and that people were mad when that also was, like, Ryan Gosling being sad. Like, how did that? Well, I also think, like, as most movies were and probably continued to be, it was promoted to teenage boys, right? And I think that audience is going in expecting probably, if not exclusively teenage boys, then, like, teenage boys and people who have remained teenage boys well as. into their 20s and 30s and that kind of thing. So even back then, because it's so funny

because I think of that as like the marvelization of cinema. Because like I didn't really go to movies like as a teenager or like as a child. So I don't remember what the marketing was like. So like it's so surprising to me to hear that even at that point it was like we gotta get the what like the 14 to 19 year old boy.

I mean I guess if you're talking about it in terms of like how we talk about movies today, It's like the Rotten Tomatoes Critics and Audience Score divides. I mean, I was probably too young to be reading reviews and such at this time, but I remember hearing from largely men and teenage boy like, eh, heat's not that good and stuff like that. But like this movie got great reviews at its time.

And even if you like, again, compare it to Casino, this was definitely more of a financial success than even that movie was. It's a pretty good money. For a movie that's almost three hours long to make sense, 60 million domestic in 95. Like, that's really good. Like, that's the thing, though, to sort of encapsulate the way this movie was marketed, though, you look at in the trailer, and then even you look at the poster. And the poster is, you would think from any objective viewpoint now, you would think who's on the poster for heat?

And you would be like, Pacino and De Niro, maybe in counterpoint, maybe, and whatever. And you look at the poster, and it's Pacino and De Niro, and who's right in the middle of them, it's Val, like a little teeny Val Kilmer. And he's also mentioned, it's like, Al Pacino, Robert De Niro, Val Kilmer, Heat. And it's because it was the same year as Batman Forever. And it was like five months after Batman Forever. And I think that was, oh, look at it. With the poster on it, yeah. Oh, my God.

And I think that was, like, Val Kilmer is a huge part of the marketing, more even, like, outsize of what his character is in the movie. And it's because of Batman Forever and because they really wanted to sort of like, rope in that section of the audience. I didn't even realize that. That's so interesting. It's absolutely bat shit. It's wild that those movies, I know, I didn't mean to do it. I didn't mean to do it. Wild that those movies were shot simultaneously. He was shooting Batman as, he was shooting Batman as they were doing pre-production for heat. And he like, he was like reading his heat script like while he's shooting Batman. Batman or whatnot. Can you imagine, was this, and this was one of the Joel Schumacher Batman's? The first Joel Schumacher Batman. Okay. I love the idea that Val was in. What do you read it? Yeah, yeah. Um, honey, that movie sounds crazy. Um, so RIP, Joel. R-IP, Joel.

Yep. Um, I want to talk about Val, though, in this movie. Val Kilmer. Val is my male physical ideal in this movie. In this movie, he's the most beautiful. He's the most beautiful I've ever seen him in his entire career the hair is so you've never he never did this hair again this sort of like flowy blonde hair he and ashley judd together this is why sort of my my little like bitchy gay review of heat is like give me the movie with just mal Kilmer and Ashley Judd because like I want to see I don't know you need to watch more of that relationship oh is that is it about them that's heat too no way yeah Oh, fuck.

Like, them finding their way back to each other? Divergence. Well, not necessarily finding their way back to each other, but you get the backstory of their relationship. And how they met, what she was doing, how he, like, saves her. It's very hot. I think they're both so good in this movie. I think he, in any scene where it's him talking with De Niro, that's so funny that, like, they barely have scenes together. It's the most telling scenes about their relationship.

are their individual scenes with De Niro, when he's talking to De Niro about her, and when he, when De Niro goes to her and tells her to give Chris one more chance to stop seeing, and he's being very menacing and he's like, it's not very nice to her, but he tells her to give Chris one more chance. And it's so funny that like, not funny, but like, that's how this movie builds intimacy is when you get to that point later in the shootout where Chris gets shot and it's interestingly like parallel. to Ted Levine. Ted Levine gets shot, killed. And Pacino sort of has to take a break from the shootout to check on him. And so that's sort of paralleled with Chris getting shot and Neil De Niro having to go basically rescue him. And that doesn't really make a ton of sense if you don't get those scenes earlier. And it's handled so economically. This is one of the sort of my favorite things about the script is, you know after that Ashley Judd scene that, like, oh, he really cares about Chris in a way that sort of belies his sort of like, you know, nothing in your life that you can't drop at the drop of the hat when the heat's coming around.

It's Chris. It's like he does. Like, that's the thing. And it's not Amy Brennaman, which I don't, I don't like that relationship and I don't buy that relationship. That's maybe my least favorite thing about the own movie. I don't think you're supposed to necessarily buy it, though. Right. Probably true. Yeah. But like the relationship, the one that he drops everything for is Chris is Val Kilmer. I love that, but I love that that's how they set it up. They set it up through the scene with him and Ashley Judd, with De Niro and Ashley Judd. I think Ashley Judd is incredible in like very, very, very limited work. I think she and Diane Vanora are both like really stand out. So good. And it's not super well served by the script, I think, too. No.

No. I mean, I think I love Michael, obviously. But I do think that Michael's women in this movie read a little harpish, but at the same time, I read them as believably harpy. You know what I mean? Like, I think they're like a little bit limited and their dialogue is like a little bit eh.

But I also totally understand that she's like, as Hannah's wife Like on the one hand When she, okay, so let's just talk about the specific scene When she's like, I made dinner Because I didn't know you were coming home Like I made chicken

And it's like, look, he was out on the streets Okay, like your chicken doesn't matter Well, and she just married this guy that week You know what I mean? Like you know this, you've known this about this guy But at the same time I'm like Oh, but like you made dinner for him That's so nice.

Well, and like And she's... There's an element to the female characters too That like these men are all playing archetypes so they're archetypes too they are the they are the women of shakespeare yeah they have to be they're the lady macbeth's waiting for macbeth to return home yeah well and i love that in back-to-back years diane venora did this and then william shakespeare's romeo plus juliet yeah man capulet and it's just like great in it yes she is chris chris uh it's the most wonderful time of the year and

I don't just mean that I have my Christmas decorations up and a candle burning that Johnny Mathis singing in the background. Genuinely, yes. It's also the period in the Vulture Movie Fantasy League where the awards points start coming in. I have been somewhat unsubtle when I write the newsletter every week of being like, yeah, yeah, box office, whatever, jerk off motion. But like, here come the awards points to be the real thing. And thank goodness, because if it was still. still just the era of box office points, there wouldn't be many points to go around.

Well, more so than I kind of expected with the Taylor Swift's and Five Nights at Freddy's of it all. And you know what I mean? And like even Hunger Games songbirds and snakes have been performing better. For when this is going, for when this little insert is dropping, I who drafted Boy in the Heron is getting those sweet number one bonus points. Is it not going to be number one this weekend? It's going to be number one this weekend. Get the fuck out of here. What happened to Beyonce? One weekend run under, Beyonce.

Wow. Just a drop. SMH. Not a good time to release a movie. I didn't realize when I, when I've been talking about like, well, yeah, like, Renaissance got announced after the league started. I didn't realize that, like, Renaissance got announced two days after we locked lineups. Right.

For the fantasy league. Like, it genuinely just missed. The two weekends after the Thanksgiving. weekend are notoriously bad times to release a movie, too. So I think it has something to do with that. Oh, okay. And like concert movies, like, we're making excuses for Beyonce. It's fun. Yeah, but like the reality is concert movies are not huge box office draws generally. And when they are, they are, they appeal to teens and kids, you know, like. The Taylor thing is an anomaly is one of those weird Taylor Swift anomalies that happen. Um, but any,

Anyway, good for Boy in the Heron. I'm glad about that. I haven't even, you are much more up on the tracking than I am. I will check tomorrow when it comes time to enter in those points, but that's very cool. So by the time you are listening to this, our leaderboard will have probably changed some with the new box office points. So good for all of you, Boy in the Heron drafters for that. In the meantime, Chris, we can talk about the awards points that rolled in this week for the National Border of Review and the Independent Spirit Awards. two awards bodies that offer us a lot of points in a lot of different areas. I like the fact that the Independent Spirit Awards nominated first, so let's talk about them. I think a lot of these movies are movies that are maybe not going to pick up points as consistently through the season. So I was glad that right now we got a chance to give Eileen some points, let's say. Eileen got a lot of good nominations. William Oldroyd was nominated for Best Director. Anne Hathaway and Marin, Ireland were nominated for supporting performance?

I've recently found out it's Marin. Oh, like the county. Marin, Ireland. Thank you. Anne Hathaway and Marin, Ireland, and best supporting performance. Really, really great for that. Super deserved. Very happy about that.

Alder Roads taste of salt. Also, Marin, Ireland is in Birth Rebirth, which got some point. Yeah, she fucking is. We know I like that movie. Some of my favorite nominations, birth rebirth, unfortunately, I did not add it to the fantasy league, mostly because I didn't expect something like this, and maybe that's a lesson for me going forward. That Judy Reyes nomination is so funny.

The Judy Reyes nomination. Okay, so top five favorite nominations, individual nominations at Indy Spirits, go. Both of the Eileen acting nominations, Judy Reyes. I loved Erica Alexander getting nominated. for American fiction. I have trumpeted that before. We want nothing but success for her. We love her, even though I'm like, that's not a great written role. I don't care. I think she's so winning in that performance. I think she's really wonderful. I love birth-rebirth in screenplay. Like, I think that's a really...

It's so rarely do horror movies get recognized for their screenplays. So, like, I really love that. I know you are super happy about... all these nominations for a thousand and one. Yes. That's really good. I was really happy to see Kokomo City show up in Best Documentary Feature. Tell me about Kokomo City. Kokomo City is, we probably talked about it in our Sundance episode. I thought it was the best doc that I saw at that Sundance.

And still, it's at the top of my list of docs for the year, directed by D. Smith. What's it about? to a lot of black trans sex workers. Fantastic. The vibe of this movie for, like, what many might call, like, a Talking Head documentary, there's so much style to this movie. It felt like something from, like, the 90s MTV era. It just felt, like, as far as pure filmmaking goes,

when, you know, we watch a lot of boring documentaries. Sure, sure. There is actual, like, style and substance. sense to the filmmaking of this movie that I found really wonderful. Great. I'm also happy to see Ben Washaw get a supporting nomination for passages. For as much as we all rightly praise Franz Ruggowski's lead performance, I'm glad that Washaw isn't getting fully forgotten this award season.

So there is that. Also, what a rad best director lineup, though. Andrew Hay, Todd Haynes, William Oldroyd, Iris Saks, Celine Song. Like, that's... It's a good director lineup. I've been saying that the indie spirits, traditionally, even for movies that haven't been as, you know, that sometimes get forgotten, three of their favorites are Todd Haynes, Iris Sacks, and Kelly Rikart. And what wins the Robert Altman Prize? Kelly Rikart's showing up, which, so it's like, they did still show up for their, three of their faves.

Also, can we say underrated year for queer filmmakers when you've got. a director lineup that has Andrew Hay, Todd Haynes. Is it Hay or Hi? Am I pronouncing it wrong this whole time? I feel like I've heard a million different pronunciations of his name. Andrew Hay, Todd Haynes, Iris Axe, are three of our best. So that's pretty awesome. I love that.

Moving over to the National Border Review, they followed suit from the New York film critics and gave their best film award to Killers of the Flower Moon, which gives that movie some real momentum. I still am not quite ready to put that as a even momentary, momentary, where am I, Camara, momentary favorite for Best Picture. But, like, I am more and more confident, and certainly with the Lily Gladstone of it all, that it's not going to Irishman its way to zero awards. The fact that Scorsese has gone zero for ten twice at the Oscars in his career,

is very wild to think about that he's done that with gangs of New York and the Irishman, but I don't feel like it's going to be an O-Fer year for Killers of the Flower Moon. Right. Good for that. And then do you want to list off our top 10 films of the year

as according to the National Board of Review? Along with Killers of the Flower Moon, you have Barbie, Boy and the Harron. Really cool to see that show up in a best film lineup, just saying, Ferrari. the holdovers. The Iron Claw. They're going in for the Iron Claw. I still haven't seen the Iron Claw and I'm going to cheer it until the moment. If it ever disappoints me, I'll be so sad. But unless it does, I'm going to be cheering it no matter what. I see it this week. I'm very excited. Maestro, Oppenheimer, past lives and poor things. So a lot of expected movies. There's no bucket list on this. You know what I mean? go away. Yeah, there's not really a booger in this list. Right, right, which I like. Okay, you mentioned the boy in the heron showing up on the list.

At what point are you going to be prepared to sound the alarm for the boy in the heron could end up as a best picture nominee? I don't know. Maybe if, because Disney owns G-K kids, right? Disney owns G-kits, right? Who's distributing it in the U.S. I, if not owns, then has a relationship with, I would imagine at the very least, right? Right, right. I don't know. I mean, it would be really, really cool to see. I think that that movie is, it's a, even by Miyazaki standards, I think it's a strange movie for Oscar. It is.

But it would be really cool. It's getting the kind of placement that other movies, and sometimes... Sometimes it's just about striking, like, placing something in the right conversation, conversational light, you know what I mean? And who knows? I'm just saying, like, I'm, but the thing that I like to think about, though, is what would need to happen for us to start thinking, start assuming that it's a possibility? Because it's not like it's going to show up on, I mean, I guess if it shows up in the PGA top 10, right? that's maybe the point yes

would it show up in the PGA top 10 is it is there a is there is it like the Writers Guild I don't think that they honor they might not honor animated I forget but they are honor animated separately

I believe right right right so that's the thing is we might not know until Oscar nomination day that it's it's even because like the Golden Globes doesn't allow animated movies in their best film lineups and SAG wouldn't have it as

an ensemble nominee, you know what I mean? So it's one of those things where we won't know till we know, which I think is kind of interesting. Yeah. Acting awards, Paul Giamatti wins for the holdovers, his first big major prize of the year.

Lily Gladstone repeats after New York film critics as best actress. My man, Mark Ruffalo, gets supporting actor for poor things. I'm so thrilled about that. I think he's... Haven't seen it yet.

So fucking hysterical. I won't overhype it anymore then, but oh, I think he's so funny. And also repeating from New York film critics, Dave I enjoy Randolph won supporting actress. Exactly. I think she is solidly, solidly on track for a nomination. And could win. I don't know what's going to happen in supporting actress.

I see it. I'd be so happy. Nothing out. Also, breakthrough performance. I was so happy, Tiana Taylor, 1001. re-watch that movie this week. I still think it's one of the performances of the year. Do we think there's an outside shot for her and best actress?

I do, kind of. I mean, it's one of those things that, like, it needs a lot of conversation around it. But, like, she keeps showing up where she should show up, you know. We should probably put a pin in some of these conversations and save it for our award season check-in that we're doing for the Patreon. Yes, yes, yes, yes. We'll be doing that on the Patreon very, very soon. But more sort of NBR specific, the fact that they do spread so much love. We got 10 independent films that also got nominations, All Dirt Roads, Taste of Salt, All of Us Strangers, Blackberry, Earth Mama, which also had some good nominations at the Indy Spirits. Flora and Son, the Persian version, Scrapper, Shower for Showing Up, Theater Camp, which also had some nominations at the Independent Spirit Awards and grumble, grumble.

And a thousand and one, a thousand one's doing very well this award season. for. I will say. Here's what I'll say without getting too much into the weeds that is conversation we should be saving for our Patreon Awards catch up, et cetera, state of the race, whatever we want to call it. In recent years, National Board of Review, as far as their four acting wins, not including the breakthrough one, obviously, that aligns with Oscar, one of those performances isn't getting nominated, we could presume, based on recent history with National Board of Review. Okay.

And at this point, I think it's Paul Giamatti. We need to have this conversation. You are much... Everybody needs to be, everybody needs to be on alert if we don't want this to happen again, where Paul Giamatti gets blanked for great performance in an Alexander Payne movie. That's true. We need to have this conversation so that it doesn't happen. We'll have more of this conversation.

Of the four that they awarded, I think the most likely at this point of not getting nominated is Paul Giamani. I don't know, man. I just don't know who else is there an actor to overtake, but we'll have, you know, more of a conversation about it. I think Paul Giamani could as easily not be nominated as he could win. I don't see it. I don't see it from this vantage point, but I have been wrong before, so who knows, we'll see. Um... I don't know.

All right. Here's my thing. So NBR Icon Award goes to Bradley Cooper for Maestro. We have already seen, did I send you that screen grab of all the weirdo bullshity prizes that the Gotham's handed out after their like awards. Wait, I got to find it where it was like. Yes, because they gave an award to Barbie. They gave an award to. Gotham Awards.

Visionary icon and creator tribute to air. icon and creator tribute for social justice to Rustin, icon and creator tribute for innovation to Ferrari, historical icon and creator tribute, Killers of the Flower Moon, global icon and creator tribute to Barbie, and cultural icon and creator tribute to Maestro. The Santa Barbara Film Festivalness of all of that has...

Right, yes. It is the New York Santa Barbara Film Festival Awards. 100%. And I say this liking the guy. But with that, the fact that the Gotham's made a point to give something bullshitty to Maestro and then NBR with their icon award, which is like the gold standard in bullshity awards to Bradley Cooper, do we, I think it's one of two things. I think either there is a groundswell for Bradley Cooper that may end up emerging in a best actor campaign that might actually happen, like might actually get him close to a win, or Netflix is working really hard to make sure that, like, even though the voters are not voting for Maestro, that they're getting it in somewhere. Having not seen the movie, I still think it's the latter. I got a screener the other day because I'm going to go see it in a theater this weekend.

The giant nearly broke my toe with that fucking swag box because the book slides out of its holder and like way too easily. And the book is a thousand pounds. Do I watch the screener, or do I try and wait for when I'm in New York at the end of the month and could possibly see it in a theater? It'll be on Netflix by then, so I don't think you're seeing it in a theater. I think that's probably true. Although it is playing it more than just like the one that's playing at like IFC Center in a couple other places.

So, like, I think you're probably right that I probably won't. But then, like, at worst case scenario, then I just, like, see my stro on my screener when I get home. Like, do I wait? Or do I just, like, am I impatient? And do I just, like, watch it now? I mean, I don't see. I don't think, maybe you see it now and you like it enough to spend time to go see it. My worry is that I see it now on a screener and I don't like it as much as I would like it if I saw it on a big screen.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't give it. It's due. My thing as a person of not seeing Maestro experience is that the first time that I got excited for it was seeing a screen cap of Bradley Cooper as like a poppered out Leonard Bernstein drunk and sweaty was the first time that made me excited to see this movie. So you have never been excited for this one at all? Nothing had, even when the first teaser came out, I was like, it looks beautiful, but I haven't. been like, what is this movie until I saw? Okay.

Bradley Cooper as old age makeup, open shirt, sweaty, on Poppers and Coke with like a solo cup in his hand. Now I'm very curious about seeing this movie. All right. I hear you. I hear you. All right. To be determined, see what I decide with Maestro.

Anything else you want to say about box office? Beyonce did top box office with Renaissance, and nobody gets those points. But Hunger Games is holding up better than other sort of fatigue-laden franchise movies at this point. I just watched it last night. Not a good movie. In the context of all your other Hunger Games watching, where did it land? Probably second to worst. To the last one.

Yeah, the last one's pretty bad in use. list, but... Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Tom Lice has slim, shady, rich boy. I don't know if it's for me. I will say all our benediction boys are showing up in other things, because

what's his face who plays the real bitch? You know, the guy who plays Sigfried's real bitchy friend who, like, is the one who comes... No. No, the one who, as an adult, sort of reunites with him at the end. is in that awful Carrie Grant miniseries that Britbox is airing with Jason Isaacs as Carrie Grant called Archie.

It was not very good, but he plays the young... I don't want that. I don't want that. He plays the young Carrie Grant. It's based on Diane Cannon's memoir, and it is executive produced by Diane Cannon and Jennifer Grant, who is her daughter with Carrie Grant. Sure. Half of it is about his, like, three-year marriage to Diane Cannon. It's like, while also trying to, like, present the, like, the real Carrie Grant, who was, like, the person beyond the manufactured, you know, the Hollywood persona.

And it's like, you can do one thing. You can either give me the tell-all about this three-year marriage later in life to Carrie to Diane Cannon from the perspective of Diane Cannon. or you can give me the like the real story behind Carrie Grant that starts decades before y'all ever met and goes all the way back to England and has a complicated relationship with his mother and it glosses over decades of his career to like bookend it with this the Diane Cannon stuff and I'm just like what are we actually doing here and like I'm not here to like throw shade on Diane Cannon I love her as an oh of course of course but like if I want the Carrie Grant story. Like, there's, there's, there is unavoidable agenda in what I'm watching and it feels like it. You really feel like you're watching somebody making their case for like, here is why I was a good wife to carry Grant. And here's why you want the great husband. And I'm like, okay, I don't want this story. We don't need that. We need more of the Rock Hudson documentary where the one guy was like, I want, I tried to. I said exactly that in my review on prime time.

That was me doing the PG-13 version of that part of it. It was a fantastic moment in cinema. Speaking of which, it should have won the NBR keenly phrased award of outstanding achievement in stunt artistry, which John Wick 4 won, but just as a title of a category, I think we need to be thinking about this in our superlatives. Yeah, we are working on a, for another tease to, a reason to join the Patreon in the new year before the Oscars, we are working on end of year awards where we are only going to do the outlier, hyper-specific awards like best grown-up for grown-ups. Yes, exactly, exactly. Best ensemble from SAG, best NBR icon award, all of that sort of stuff. Freedom of expression.

Freedom of expression. Best first feature. There was no Freedom of Expression Award this year. I know. It was blank. It was literally like blank on some of those. They could have just given it to Rustin. What are they doing slash not doing?

Maybe they had Rustin and somebody was like, I don't want to give it to Rustin. They like nixed it off. Not a good movie, unfortunately. Give it to poor things for women slang. I don't know. That is a best performance. in stunting is Emma Stone stunting on those hose.

Stunt Artistry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For Emma Stone stunting on all those hose and poor things. All right. I think that's it for our update. Listen, go to vulture.com slash movies dash league, and you can check out the latest version of the leaderboard. You can take a look at, you can filter by league and see whatever league you're in.

At this point, I'm going to bring up the All of Us Gary's League. so we can throw the appropriate amounts of flowers on Velvet Goldmind, which is currently 17th overall and number one in the All of Us Gary's League. Fucking hell yeah. We have three rosters from All of Us Garys are in the top 15 as I look at the leaderboard right now. Hell yeah. Go Garys. Y'all are killing it.

I'm very happy. Velvet Gold Mind has on their roster, American fiction, Killers of the Flower Moon, Taylor Swift, the Ares Tour, The Hunger Games, The Ballad of Song, Birds and Snakes, Asteroid City, which is currently at a big old goose egg in award season. It's going to be one of the most embarrassing things about this award season in years. And we'll be able to do an episode on it sooner than you think. all of us strangers past lives and poor things. That is a strong roster that is only going to get stronger when as award season moves on through. So we'll see how it goes.

Chris, just FYI, Raghowski, Crop Top, Stan is still in second place. To do the quick loving of the Gary's League team names, Charisa May, December, I salute you. That's great. It's not bad. Yeah, we're going to spotlight a different name every week, and Charisa May December is pretty good. All right, listeners, back to your regularly scheduled heat. You can feel it coming around the corner, and enjoy the rest of our episode.

wait can we go back to Ashley because yes your point of like lady Macbeth waiting like the hand signal like it's just oh the hand signal so good yeah yeah yeah it's great it's so good because this thing that was his vice right like the gambling vice that was his problem is what she uses to tell him to go like it's just fuck it's just so like meticulously constructed so that you understand to your point, Joe, like, these very economically provided to elements of these characters, but they are given, like, such impressive meaning by how he, like, rearranges them in each interaction. And he cuts his hair at the very end so that he can go right off and film The Saint, like, right after this. So it's perfect. I was going to say, because he had to go back to the back game. What a time for Val. What a time for Val. Well, he was so, it was, this was his, all right, the thing I wrote down in the outline was

we need to make a visit to Val Kilmer's Awards tab on IMDB because it is... How much MTV is there? I feel like it's going to be a lot. It's the biggest portion. The two biggest chunks

of his awards tab are MTV and the Razies, unfortunately. So he is a... Well, at this point, he's hot off of playing the world's hottest tuberculosis patient in Tombstone.

Well, this is what I want to talk about. So he's a five-time nominee at the MTV Movie Awards. This was before they added TV and bastardized it. He was nominated for Best Male Performance in The Doors. He loses to... Who the fuck did he lose to? Hold on. I'm finding it.

Probably Arnold Schwarzenegger. I was going to say, probably Schwarzenegger. Yes, Schwarzenegger and Terminator 2. Yes, perfect. So funny. He's nominated for Best Male Performance in Tombstone in 1994. He's so good in Tombstone. But he's also nominated for Most Desirable Mail for Tombstone, which is

fucking hilarious. The world's hottest tuberculosis patient, I'm telling you. That's literally, what does he die of in that movie? Tuberculosis. It is tuberculosis. Oh, there you go. Yes. He like, no, he doesn't like die of, he doesn't get shot.

He doesn't get whatever. Like, he's, that man is coughing up blood for 65% of that movie. And everybody who was watching MTV at that time was just like, sign me up, get me more of that guy. And that's how, like, that's how hot of a movie star he was. And that's why he got Batman because, like, everybody fucking loved him. And then his. only other post-Batman. He's nominated again for Desirable Mail for both Batman Forever and Heat, a dual nomination, which is correct.

It's not on the broadcast. We recap this episode over on the Patreon. Brad Pitt wins for seven is not there, which is probably why it's not on the Broadway. Brad Pitt winning for seven, I'm going to say is correct, because, like, there would not be a bad year in the 90s to give Brad Pitt most desirable mail for literally anything. That's true. But I also feel like, like, Brad in that movie is hot because he's Brad. I don't think the movie does anything to accentuate his hotness. You know what I mean?

Well, I will bring up the Janine Garofalo caveat, which is the police badge on the necklace sometimes, like it's the necklace of it. Not the police of it, but the necklace of it. The necklace of it. The only thing I'll say about heat is that there is a moment where he and Neil go out to deal with the fact that they're going to be sold like the fake bonds and Chris has taken like the sniper position and there's a moment where he like rolls into the frame and he's just doing like I don't know just like a role like an army role and like the hottest thing I've ever seen

about to also endorse this nomination for Val Kilmer potentially over Brad Pitt's win in the category you're you're placing it on the jewelry show what is Batman? if not, like, over-accessorized. He has a belt full of jewelry. Well, but here's the Gatling gun is jewelry. Here's the other thing about Val Kilmer. It's a pendant. Is because Batman wears the cowl, the most important physical feature on Batman is what his lips, because that's the part of him that you can see.

And that is why Val Kilmer was perfect casting for Batman forever, because Val Kilmer's lips were gifted to him. by a nymph by the Greek, you know, an island of whatever. Very pillowy, very luxurious. They're very good lips. And that's why George Clooney was an insane choice to play Batman, because as all the good features that George Clooney has, he doesn't really have really good lips. I would want, like, George's voice, which vows lips as Batman. That, I think, works. We've cracked the code.

That's why Robert Pattinson has more of an open cowl, because what do you cast Robert Pattinson for? The jaw line. The jaw line. The jaw line in those fucking cheekbones. Yep, exactly. Goth Batman. Yeah, got Batman hot. The rest of this most desirable male lineup is a little more deranged.

Keanu Reeves for a walk in the clouds, which, you know, Keanu Reeves, yes, walking the clouds. Kiano's a little bit of like a Brad Pitt, though. I don't think there's a bad year in the 90s to nominate Keanu for that other. It's more just he was Keanu Reeves than that movie. Yeah. Antonio Benderas for Desperado. And, oh boy, Mel Gibson for Braveheart. The MTV Movie Awards were all over.

The most desirable? Mel Gibson is a former people sexiest man alive. Like Mel Gibson, like the sex symbolness of Mel Gibson in the 90s, as deranged as it is in retrospect, like was a thing. Was definitely a thing. I believe that more for people than for everyone. MTV, which I believe it's like a younger demo. The MTV movie awards. Imagine all the teens coming out of that movie and being like, he was so hot.

Yeah, I worry about all of their relationships with their fathers. Like, that's not bad. Yeah. The first desirable male of that year, which this movie was nominated for other things, Bill Pullman and While You Were Sleeping. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Scene where he rips the butt out of his jeans. Yeah, that's important.

It's a good point. He's very attractive in that. So Val was also nominated at the Saturn Awards this year for Best Supporting Actor. He loses again to Brad Pitt, this time for 12 Monkeys. Brad was also an Oscar nominated for that one. Other nominees in this category at the Saturn's, Harvey Keitel and Quentin Tarantino, and from Dusk till Dawn. I think that movie rules, but I think nominating Quentin Tarantino for an acting award should be grounds to get you brought up on a involuntary committal or something.

No, absolutely deranged behavior. Tim Roth and Rob Roy, who was also an Oscar nominated that year. And then Christopher Walken in The Prophecy, a movie that I haven't seen since that year. I remember thinking that, like, that was one of those ones where I was a teen, and I'm like, ooh, the prophecy, that looks like really creepy. And, like, I very few movies I recall being let down by as a teenager, because I tend to just, like, everything was awesome. And that one, I was like, hmm, okay.

Didn't Christopher Walken do, like, three of those movies? Yeah, I think there was a lot of them, right? Speaking of, like, De Niro getting a reputation for agreeing to everything, like, Christopher Walken will do a movie. Like, that is, Christopher Walken will work. I like Brad Pitt a lot in 12 Monkeys. I would have liked for Val to have gotten something in this award season. Yeah.

But it's one of those things where it's like, we talk about Brad in the 90s, And it is just like banger after banger after banger. Oh, yeah. Like, especially at this point where he's like, I'm going to start doing weirder stuff. And it's like, all right, dude. Like, let's keep going. Like, I'm into this.

And the stuff that was more typical was getting like worse. Like seven years in Tibet and meet Joe Black were not getting the good reviews. And the good stuff was like 12 monkeys. And like even like when he did like snatch in 2000 and stuff like that, people were really into that. Snatch good, though. Snatch good. You and I are going to defend Legends of the Fall any given day. One of these days I will defend Legends of Fall.

Brad Pitt and Legends of the Fall is what I always say of the most beautiful a man has ever looked in history. No, for you, it's Brad Pitt on the cover of Rolling Stone. Well, sure. I guess in a movie. In movement. He's very beautiful in movement in that movie. I can't remember who. If you're the person who made this observation with me, get at me in our comments.

But there's the moment in Legends of the Fall. where he tips his cap to Julia Ormond, and, like, it had been raining or it had been, like, whatever. The water. The water sort of splashes off the cap. And I'm like, that moment right there. That's the most beautiful I've ever seen anybody look at it. Because the splash, it's like. Same.

Splush. Yeah. All of us. All of us are like, you know what? Everyone in the audience. Who among us? So I guess this can be our entry into, oh, yeah, before we get off Val, the Razies. First of all, I will never.

Boo Razis. The Razis suck. Yes. The Razzie's nominated him three times for worst either supporting actor or actor, all of them after Heat. He got nominated for Worst Supporting Actor for the Island of Dr. Moreau, which is a very razzy thing to do of like, let's take the troubled production and pile on. Worst actor for The Saint, which like, I'm not going to be here to tell you that The Saint is a good movie because the Saint isn't a good movie. Horrible movie. You don't need to pick up that.

I feel like the Saint is enjoyable. Is it not? Yeah. He's committing. I had a decent enough time watching it. Yeah. We're supporting actor in Alexander. I disagree if only that like, if I'm enjoying myself in Alexander, like, odds are it's because of like something that Val did in that movie.

Yeah. Alexander has larger problems than Val. But that's a similar to the island of Dr. Moreau, right? This big project that flopped and had problems and whatever. The thing that makes me. me angriest about the Razzies is, just earlier this year, in January or February, whatever, of this year, they nominated Val Kilmer for their Razzie Redeemer Award, which is their condescending little, like, oh, now you've done a thing that we like, so we're going to say, like, good for you

for, like, finally doing something good. And they did it for his documentary about his, like, failing health and whatnot, which is, like, doubly gross. And so, like, genuinely, fuck. you to the Razzie's for that. In general, I hate the Redeemer Award. I'm like, at least stand behind. Your attempt to be nice only reveals how you suck Razies. There we go. But, like, to make it about the documentary, I'm like,

fuck off. Like, genuinely fuck off. It's also very funny, because it's like, do you think they saw that they got nominated for Razis? And they're like, wow, my career is really taken. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It gives a shit. Like,

being honest with yourself. Especially now, because, like, it's one thing to talk about the Razzie's in, like, the 90s when it's, it actually got attention. And now they're, they're nominating, like, Kim Kardashian for movies that don't exist, things like that. I want to sort of broach the subject, though, of why ultimately Heat doesn't get nominated for any Oscars, because this was not a poorly received movie. The critics, like, Rotten Tomatoes being an imperfect, you know, model.

as it is. But like, the critics were genuine, generally positive on balance. The box office, as we said, especially for 1995 and for a movie that was, you know, three hours long, 67.4 million domestic is kind of great. I think ultimately, if we're going to have the conversation of why the Oscars didn't go for it, we maybe need to begin with that the expectations, We're so high for the movie that finally brings together, Pacino and De Niro. And I think it's hard to, I don't, like, I don't think it's hard to build a campaign for either one of those actors in this, but De Niro and Pacino are giving such very different performances. De Niro is very low key. Pacino is very high key.

And I think it's sort of like, it slummoxed awards voters long enough, and it was so late in the year that they were just like. like, literally whatever, we'll just nominate the guy from the postman. Like, Harvey Weinstein's telling us to do something and we'll just listen to him for, you know, once or whatever. And that's all I, that's maybe the best I have because, like, it's not like it. We've talked about Chris, how in the 90s, the Oscars felt more willing to nominate craft nominees outside of the realm of best picture, right? So. Right. And it's like, why is Elliot Goldenthall not nominated for this movie?

why doesn't it have a cinematography nomination? Why doesn't it have a sound nomination? It was nominated by the Sound Guild for sound mixing. Like, the Oscars love sound effects editing nominations for shootouts. Like, they love gun sound effects.

They nominate that shit all the time. And so... Also, Warner Brothers had, like, nothing else. That's the other thing. nomination is for Merrill Streep and Bridges of Madison County. That's the thing. Like, nothing else.

I think, I mean, that's Merrill's best performance to stand by it. Um, uh, I think everything you need to know about why Heath has zero Oscar nominations is if you look at what this best picture lineup is. They are not interested at this point in, I mean, I guess darker material, for lack of a better word, but like they're not interested in the three-hour philosophical movie about masculinity. Like when your darkest movie is the best picture winner and it's brave heart. right you know which is like toxically you know

ultimately is a movie that presents as uplift or is like crowd pleaser etc but the rest of the struggle right struggle right struggle in like a mainstream a digestible

large scale war way Oscars love war like they don't care about like other type of struggle they are not interested what heat serves, which is War of the Soul. Yeah. The rest of the best picture lineup

is Babe. Everybody loves Babe. Okay, yeah. Babe does rule. It's so sad that man died. Apollo 13. Yeah, America. And Sense and Sensibility, great movie. Yeah, like, there are very good movies in that lineup.

Yeah. But you're right. And even the darker stuff that does get nominated in some of the other categories, something like Dead Man Walking has the uplift of this sort of like triumph over capital punishment in that like, you know, Sarandon's character is this sort of, you know, wonderfully warm and, you know, the kind nun who's the sort of the sort of the sort of the dark, dark, dark movie is leaving Las Vegas. Well, leaving Las Vegas, I suppose, too. But like even leaving Las Vegas has like, I would argue, some

phony uplift of like but Elizabeth Shoe is going to go and blah blah blah blah Sure sure sure It's not a movie that's as gritty as I think it thinks it is I haven't seen it since back then So I couldn't speak to it

It's been so long I just I feel like There's no surprise to me That the only or the first Michael Mann nominations are for the insider Like it doesn't surprise me at all Because that feels like the most digestible to the academy version of what man is doing in everything. But it fits there like, we love social justicey, progressivism, whistleblower type shit.

You know? I'm less surprised. Sorry, finish your thought. No, no, please. I was going to say, I'm less surprised that he didn't show up in the major categories. But as I said, like, the fact that, like, their cinematography category that year only has two of the major Oscar nominees. It's got Braveheart, which wins for John Toll, and Sense and Sensibility is nominated. But then they nominate Batman Forever for cinematography. Yes.

Okay, I'm going to stand by that. That movie looks fucking crazy. I know people like make fun of the aesthetic of that movie, but, like, go back and watch that movie and be like, how did they shoot this? How did they get this lighting? Okay. I wonder if it also got... Batman Forever, by the way, gets like four nominations in total, three nominations. It's kind of amazing.

But anyway, other nominees, Emmanuel Labeschi's very first nominations for a little princess that year. And then Shanghai Triad is nominated, which, like, is obviously the Zhangye movie, which is, again, like, Oscar's stepping out of its, of its boundaries a little bit, although they would always sort of nominate foreign language stuff in the 90s and 80s for craft categories. But to me, it's like I do feel like there's a world in which he deserved consideration there or in film editing, which nominates Crimson Tide, a great movie. But like, it's wild to me that Crimson Tide and Seven, and I definitely support the nomination for Seven.

I think Seven is an incredibly edited film. but like those two movies can get in there along with Apollo 13 and Babe and Braveheart for film editing and not consider something like heat in terms of like the sound categories again they nominate Batman Forever they nominate Crimson Tide they nominate Waterworld which is like this is how you know this is how you know that the sound the Oscars love the sound they love in sound mixing they love anything that incorporates water. And so, like, that's how you know is because they nominated Waterworld. And there's just so many ways in which they could have, and like, who knows, maybe Heat finishes a close sixth in some of those categories. We'll never know, unless you let us into the vault at the Academy Museum. Wouldn't you love that publicity? But Heat doesn't show up with any of the other, like, industry awards either. It's only the sound. I'm skeptical about that. But Joe, you mention all these categories and you don't mention that this is one of the years of two original

score categories. How was Elliot Goldenthal's incredible score for this movie that I feel like if there's a motion to be had in this movie, at least 50% of that is owed to Elliot Goldenthal. And I also feel like this is a score that has been essentially copied and mimicked and homaged in like other movie scores for the past three decades. since this movie is coming. Chris, they had to nominate the score for Il Postino, which gets the win that year. They had to nominate James Horner, God bless and God, you know.

Listen, I stand up for Apollo 13, even though I maybe just diminished it five minutes ago. But you don't need to nominate that and Braveheart in the same year, like for James Warner, much as I loved James Horner. Oh, but I think that, no, you don't nominate the Braveheart score because James Horner score for Apollo 13. You don't need to nominate John Williams for Nixon. John Williams can, like, John Williams, who's already nominated in the other category for Sabrina in the comedy score category. Like, John Williams was doing fine. John Williams was nominated in the song category because he gets credited to the original song that got nominated. Is there, like, a conspiracy theory where we just think that, like, they didn't vibe with it?

Yes. I think that's probably it. Like, I think that's what you ultimately have to chalk it up to is just, like, it was not their thing. And sometimes movies that we think, this is sort of why. this podcast exists a little bit is like sometimes we just have to get to the bottom of like what was the problem here what was the disconnect what was going on and ultimately sometimes it's just like it was just not their thing not enough voters thought it was their thing it's funny to me that it's such a los angeles movie but it doesn't seem to appeal to like

like the la you know you talk about like movies that like talk about like the magic of Hollywood are always such like catnip to Oscar voters. But this is a movie that is sort of like, it's the most L.A. movie, but in the least expected way. He talked about how he filmed it in locations that didn't get filmed at very often.

I love that he films it at like L.A.X, but it's in like the field behind L.A.X, like that kind of thing. And all of that feels exactly like something like collateral to me. Or it's like parts of L.A. that I do not. the subway yeah like the certain the like certain parts of like these cities i think most people

watching them who are from those cities would be like oh i don't know like is that is that like part of where we are and it's like michael man wants to show you the like forgotten underground ignored this is going to be an odd comparison to make but i had that thought while i was watching past lives was Celine's song picks some really interesting locations to film in New York City that you don't always, it's not like the same old, same old stuff there. And I really appreciate that. And I'm excited to watch that one again for that very reason. Wait, I want to dig into my little notebook of notes because I know that like my notes on this are all weird. Ashley Judd's lip liner. Oh, Tom Noonan's beard in this movie is. It's so good. I love Tom Noonan and almost

everything. 90s dirtbag Tom Noonan because I'm also, of course, thinking of last action hero. Like Tom Noonan, who now it's like you see Tom Noonan and it's like, oh, Tom Noonan. But in the 90s it's like, ugh, that guy.

It's fucking weird. You know what? But the other thing that I love about this movie, and sorry, this is like jumping ahead of my own point. What I love about Tom Noon is that he is like a grimy off-the-grid hacker, right? Yeah. But it's probably like the best person.

in this movie in terms of, like, he just seems like a good guy. Nobody seems like a good guy in this movie. Like, he seems like a good guy. He and West Dutie should just, like, they should have their own little diner conversation where it's just like, we're just a couple of good guys. Yes. But to further say, everyone should read a heat too. Kelso has like a sizable role in heat.

No shit. Oh, you're going to make me read heat too, Roxanna. That's going to be your accomplishment. Okay. It's very good. What do you think the chances are that that gets made into an idea? Adam Driver talked about this. on the, I believe it was at Venice.

He was like, yeah, let's go. Let's just make it. Let's just do it. I think if Ferrari does well, he'll make it. I think if it doesn't. We haven't talked about this. Adam Driver made a Michael Mann movie. What were your thoughts?

You're Adam Driver, who you on this podcast were like, I wish he would work less. And he made a Michael Man movie. Where did you come down? I thought that he was very good. He good. I'm glad. I thought he was very good. I was like, I was very over.

it with like House of Gucci and I was like a little bit over at a driver. I didn't like him in House of Gucci either. Didn't like him in House of Gucci at all. Also just didn't like House of Gucci. Didn't think Gaga was good. Didn't like it. I wanted more out of that movie. I am famously Pro Letto in that movie. Pro Leto was giving me what I wanted out of that movie, which was Insanity. Yeah. Which was Luigi's Mansion. It's essentially, I mean, like, I've seen the Dateline episode and I don't think it does more than the Dateline episode when it should. But yes, Adam Driver, very good, believable to me, playing older than his age, exceptional with Penelope. Him and Penelope, Chris, are so, like, that's a fucking marriage, you know, like, that is.

My issue with that movie is the scenes that I cared about and the scenes that I didn't care about, there was such an ocean between them. But the scenes that I did care about were those marriage scenes because, Penelope is so wonderful. They are great together. I wouldn't have guessed that they would have that type of chemistry. I think there's some, it was shocked. I mean, okay, I mean, again, we are not bragging here. I watched it on the screener that came in the neon book.

And I really question if the version that they put on those discs is the finished, polished version because the visual effects look so bad as to be like, this is a problem with the movie. I'm going to wait and see if I can see it in a theater. I saw it in a theater and I, in a Dolby, and I do not recall thinking that. There is like one climactic sequence where like I don't think the CGI was amazing, but I don't think it was bad. So maybe it like- I thought it was really bad. So maybe the transfer is not great or I don't know. I haven't watched it on the screen here yet.

I don't know. That's unfortunate. Yeah. I think there's a... It takes a while for that movie to get cooking, too. I think I'm going to like it the more that I sit with it, but there were stretches of the movie. I was pretty bored. And I mean...

Do you not care about the racing part, or do you not care about the Shalene part? I would have cared more about the Shaline part if Shaline was better in the movie. I think Shailene should not have done an accent. She basically doesn't. I think if she weren't doing the accent, the performance would be better. I didn't think it was bad, but I felt like more, and a certain amount of her energy was going to maintain this accent that did not need to be maintained. Right, right. The racing stuff I actually liked, and I thought the filming of it was incredible, like, some of it is just literally them latching a camera onto a,

race car, but it looks thrilling. There's there, there, there's, there's, we're just stretches of it that I thought were just a little boring. Can I say, speaking of accents that served to alienate me from a movie, I want to get back to the Amy Brennaman of it all because, oh boy, let's do it. Yes. You mentioned, you mentioned, I mentioned that that relationship doesn't work for me, her

and De Niro. First of all, the fact that she's named E-D, but like E-D-W-E-A-D-Y, I don't, I don't approve of that. I don't buy her accent. But you mentioned that there's a degree to which that relationship isn't supposed to work. And I don't disagree. So expound upon that. I think that it becomes very clear that Neil, despite what he says, wants out of the life.

And I think that he is drawn to her complete unaware. of what he does. And so I think there is like a genuine, like, interest in each other. But I think that, like, he is making her into a lifeline and to, like, a second chance at finding himself. So, like, the relationship is not really about her, right? It's, like, what she represents for him. Which is why we find it a little puzzling that the camera is on her so much when he

ultimately doesn't go back into the car with her. You know what I mean? That like it keeps cutting back to her. I think she believes the relationship. Right. I don't think we're meant to believe that he has fully invested though.

Right. I just think processing that moment through us looking at her is maybe not the best way of pro. You know what I mean? It's just like I ultimately am like at that moment I'm just like, God, don't go back into that car.

Like it's better for, it's better for every. And maybe that is what I'm supposed to be thinking anyway. There scenes together feel almost never about her. And it's like, which just forces the character to feel like the character just exists for him. And I think aside from like the thing you're talking about, um, in terms of, you know, she's representing this last shot at another life. I think it's also, she, it makes the character feel functional, but their whole relationship also serves to be the opposite of Al Pacino,

who is like a monster, not really a monster, but like he behaves. Like he's on cocaine and he's, you know, the loose canon and can't communicate with these women who actually need him, whereas De Niro gets to be more gentle with this person who just came into his life. And it's supposed to be, you know, not what we expect those characters to be. I think that's fair. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, she's serving this purpose to make this character still be the opposite of Pacino's character. Yeah. I also don't, but like, what does she actually do? Yeah. Right. Right. All I was going to say is I think a lot about the scene where, like, she finds out what he does, and she's, like, running away from him.

She runs up a hill. Yeah. Yeah. And he's, like, chasing her. up the hill with like the L.A. skyline in the background. That to me is so much of like what we're meant to perceive by that relationship, which is like he's trying

to run away from his past and like run toward her and capture her. But like it's not, it's not going to fix you, right? Right. Okay, so here's the question. So like, who is the, like, are any of these relationships good? Like, I feel like Ashley and Chris, like I feel like

they're absolutely. I believe in Ashley and Chris. I really do. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I want the best for them. Yeah, I think that's the one. I mean, it's certainly painting circumstances that makes it because of who they, these men are, but also the circumstances that they are in. It makes all of these relationships impossible to be good, you know, not just because of what they do, but also their own philosophies,

their own inabilities to communicate or change. Tom Seismore's wife seems very happy because Tom Seismore is in it because the heat is the juice. Tom Seismore is not looking for more, right? Like he's like fulfilled by what they do. More like Tom Size less. He's fine with it. Like there's nothing that he wants further and their relationship seems really good actually.

Tom Seismore's wife also seems like the most ported over from Goodfellas of any in this money. Oh, yeah. No, she's just like, she's accepting the jewels. Yeah. She loves them. Like, don't ask where he got them. It's like, ha, ha, ha. I also love that, like, that dinner is what kind of, like, cooks that crew, right? Because that's where they're able to make all of them. And it's like, that's the one, when again, it's like this, all this big talk about having no connections and like, whatever, it's like, what cooks them is family dinner, you know? When they all get out and then they all go out and have a meal together, like they are a regular group of friends. It's kind of amazing. I want to talk about the Natalie Portman scene where he walks in and she's in the bathtub and she's nearly killed herself, which I think, help me process this because the idea is, at least to me, that like this violence that he's been sort of pursuing and talking about, he has that moment in the coffee or in the diner scene with De Niro where he's like, if you're about to make. you know, some poor bastard's wife a widow, I'm going to take you down. And there's this talk of like that he's doing it to protect other people, which for one, A, is bullshit. And we know that because during the shootout scene, he takes the shot at Seismore while Seismore is holding the kid. And like so much of that big shootout scene, which I know is like the

bravura filmmaking, whatever, all of that, yes. But I become Marge Gunderson during that whole scene where I'm just like, and what's it all for for a little bit of money. You know what I mean? And it's a beautiful sunny day. Like that kind of a thing. I very much become And that, when it's just like, they are just like turning this section of Los Angeles into a war zone for ultimately for a little bit of money. And it's just like, and like Seismore's got this kid. And Pacino takes the shot. And I'm like, just by taking the shot, you are a fucking psychopath to me. And it's like, and so then you, you know, you get to the portman scene.

And it's just like, is it, is it supposed to be the thing where it's like it brings it home that like now this violence that has been sort of, you know. othered is supposed to come home, like hit him home, because I don't know if that's necessarily the point of it either. And I, I'm just curious to like, you as somebody who has seen this movie way more times than I have, where, what function, what does that do for this movie? What I didn't think it was so much about like, I mean, I suppose it is about the violence coming home because at this point, we have seen him. be at like the murder scene of like the 16 year old sex worker that Wayne Rout kills and like we

whose hair is different in the when they find did you did am I the only person who noticed that? No I think I think it's like very clearly they like used just a different yeah and that's to the part of I'm like is it just like are they finding is it like supposed to be two different characters I don't know I was a little bit I don't think so I thought it's

supposed to be the same character me too it's just like a weird continuity. I want to talk about Waingroe after we talk about this, though. Yeah, we'll talk about Wayne Groh. But I thought that it was meant to be more about like his relationship with his wife. Yeah. And I thought it was meant to be more about like what this neglect made flesh like kind of a thing. Yeah. But the thing is too that like it's neglect made flesh, yes. But she also, I've always thought about the choice of like, like, why does she choose to do it in a place where he would find her? Because that, to me, speaks less about neglect and more like, did she want to die?

Or was she leveraging that the only person is the one who could save her. He's the one who could save her. Yeah. So it's like, I think it's more one of those things about, like, the mess that they're all leaving behind, but that they are still people who are capable of being loved. Like, I think she does love him and, like, trusts him and, like, wants him, wants someone to care about her. And, like, the person that she wants to care about her is him and, like, what he represents in terms of, like, safety and, like, being protective of her. He's only back at the apartment when he is because they hit a dead end.

end in the case. And like, if they don't hit that dead end, he never makes it home and she dies. You know what I mean? And I, and that to me is interesting, too, because it's just like, it is kind of just dumb luck that he made it there in time. Because ultimately, his job is going to keep him isolated more often than not from his wife and his stepdaughter. And, and like, When the warning signs are there with that character? Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Every time we see that character, she's upset or isolated or, you know. Yeah. And who notices it, right?

I mean, like, the mom notices it. But we also see that, like, the mom has her own shit going on, right? Like, the marriage is going bad. Like, it's not. Like, she has tons of other shit to deal with. And I think about, like, him giving her a ride home. Like, there's something, like, human about that relationship, I think, to remind us that, like Hannah isn't an asshole.

And yes, he is in this job for like a certain degree of power. But I do think, like, I do believe him when he says, I don't want to allow you to make someone a widow. I do think he cares about people and we're meant to see him caring about her as a reflection of that. But yeah, then he takes the shot with Seismore. I think it's just meant to be like everybody here has dualities, right? Like, Neil will kill everyone, but he will put himself in danger to save Chris. Like, all of these people have characters who are, like, younger than them and maybe less entrenched in the life and more innocent than they are that they are willing to protect.

That's interesting, paralleling Chris and Natalie Portman. I didn't think about that, but that's, that's really, that's good. The other thing about watching Heat now at my age now and when I first watched it when I was a teenager is, is this idea of watching a shootout play out like that or like a police chase where I think when I watched it as I was younger, you just sort of you take it as a given that these shootouts are necessary to catch the bad guys. And then you watch it now and I'm always just like, just let him go. You know what I mean? Just like, what's the worst thing that happens about letting him go rather than like this fucking carnage and chaos that you bring by trying to nab him at the bank? Just like, you know, and that's, and I've, it's only really been in kind of like maybe the last five to 10 years that I've even like come around on that whole idea because you're just so you take it as such a given from watching television and movies and whatever growing up that just like, yeah, you have to have a shootout. with the bad guys or else they'll get away.

Like, and now you're just like, yeah, like live to fight, like live to catch him another day, man. Like, what the fuck are you doing putting all these people in danger? That feels so typical of the time though, right? And when they. Feels typical of now. It is. It is.

No, no, for sure, for sure. Yeah. I just mean also like, wasn't there the big thing where the people did copy heat and there was a gigantic shootout? There was a big shootout in Los Angeles. Then like, multiple people died. You would think at that point that the cops would be like, hey, we saw how he ended and we're not going to let that happen.

They're like, no, we need to kill him. Well, I remember for a while there, before Fox News really became like Fox News when it was still like the 90s and whatever. And the one thing that I really knew about Fox News was they would always show police chases. Like whenever there was a police chase happening somewhere, they would show it there. And so I would watch these police chases. And I remembered at some point, somebody like alluded to this idea that like, you know, some people say that, like, like, police should, that we should stop covering these and the police should stop engaging these chases because it, like, puts more people in danger.

And I remember being, like, sort of like, gobsmacked by that and we're like, oh, like, that's like, because you just, I don't know, we're all brainwashed. It makes so much sense, actually. We're all brainwashed when we grow up with all of this stuff. Jesus Christ. Okay. Look, man, we all grew up with the OJ chase. I think we all.

Yes. Like, and the French connection and like all of this, you know what I mean? It's just like the car chase. print that that left on a cannot be overstated. So, wangro is an incredible character. Like,

like, the movie, the movie kicks off with when, like, when he just like, when he just, like, boards this car seemingly, like, he almost plays like a goblin or something like that that sort of like,

visits, like a force of cosmic horror. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a horror character. Yes. 100%.

Wangro is, Wangro is Michael Man's Bob. from Twin Peak. Oh, my God. Write that article, Roxanna. Jesus Christ. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.

He is a supernatural being of evil who sort of like haunts, like infiltrates this, this crew. And essentially, like, he's Tony Todd in the Candyman a little bit, too. Or he's just like, he touches this job and everybody dies at some point. And except for Val Kilmer. Except for Chris. Yeah. But so, and every time the movie sort of checks on on him, he's also kind of Javier Bardem in No Country for Old Men a little bit. Who also is a force of cosmic horror.

Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And like when he, like, when he gets to Van Zant and all that sort of stuff. And then going into that actor's bio is wild. Kevin Gage, who plays in Bueh, A, was married for two years to Kelly Preston, had no idea. Oh, wow. Went to jail, was sentenced to 41 months in federal prison in 2003 for cultivating marijuana, which he said he was doing because he had stress or injuries and pain from a car crash in 1993, but also because his sister had cancer and his brother had MS, so he needed to cultivate this weed for, like, medicinal purposes for them.

And I respect that if it were remotely true. Right. I was going to say, I respect the hustle if nothing else. But yeah, like goes to prison for like three years. That's crazy. But was also before that was married to Kelly Preston in the 1980s. So like wild. But also just like looks like, again, just sort of looks like this person who like wandered in from the desert out of a hole from the center of the earth or something like that.

It's crazy. It's amazing. Once again, do you think he's like the primordial desert men in Twin Peaks the Return? You want to keep bringing up Twin Peaks? Then yes, I will absolutely keep agreeing with you. Yes, absolutely. The other actor who I didn't put in my lineup for actors is, well, tone loke shows up. And I'm like, I am the Tiffany Pollard. God bless the 90s for putting toneloak in movies.

But Bud Court as Dennis Haysberth's asshole manager at the, at the restaurant, like, God bless everything. We didn't talk about Henry, but Henry's great. I mean, the thing that I love about Wangro is that Wangro's scenes could be an entirely different movie, but they work again to emphasize that, like, Hannah and Neil have, like, codes of conduct, right? So, again, to your point, it furthers, like,

leave everything behind the 30 seconds as bullshit. Like, it's crap. Like, he doesn't actually live like that or believe that. The only person who really does live like that is Wangro and he's a monster. Yeah. And ultimately, that's the other thing is he's ultimately taken out by De Niro. And Pacino never realizes and may never realize that this is this serial killer that he's been, you know, hunting and tracking all these years, right? Interesting.

See, I think that he would because I think he would be obsessed with, knowing who this guy was? What happened? Yeah, like, why was Neil here? Okay. And he also feels totally like the kind of guy who would, like, run in Neil's bullets. See, to me, to me, he's a character who the next day, some other case is going to happen, and he's going to move, like, a shark, like, perpetually forward, and he's not going to look back.

I think that he is, like, changed by his altercation with Neil. Like, I still think that he is, like, a cop chasing. Absolutely, like, yes. but I also think that he is just somebody who would want to know everything about this man with whom he seemed to share like an actual elemental bond. And I'm not giving heat to spoilers, but like, sort of. Um, sorry, one second, one second, one second. I'm looking up this connection. Joe is putting a request into the library for heat too.

I need to know who reads the Heat 2 audiobook Because if it's not Someone from like third tier of this cat I need Heat 2 to be read by Ted Levine Ted Levine The greatest voice in cinema The man constantly sounds like Share with a sign infection

I love him so much I have it It sits on my death it is narrated by Peter Giles I'm seeing right here you can see all of all of the little pretty Los Angeles all the little like pages I folded over it's a good time there's a there's a moment where Chris is described as like a surfer bro with dead shark eyes and I'm like hot you're like talking my language all right Thank you. Thank you for describing my perfect man.

Danny Treo's death scene in this movie is so gnarly and sad, but like the way they have him looking like his head has been like made part of the floor. Like it's just like he looks like the guy in Casino who has his head in a vice. Yeah, it just looks like his head was flattened and it's all sort of like and then, but he it's one of those great like movie scenes where it's just like he does have enough. energy to get out all of the pertinent information that he needs. Everything you need to know. It's just like, I think it was Van Zant. And he's like Van Hu, and he's like, Van Zandt.

And it's just. Because he's loyal. And he needs to hold on to tell Neil. Oh. Yeah. But his whole body looks destroyed in that scene. Like that's also just like a disgusting, phenomenal makeup and like design achievement. Because I'm like, oh, your body.

Like, is melted? What is that? Putting all of these actors' careers into the context of 1995 is really funny. The fact that, like, this movie comes right in between the professional and beautiful girls for Natalie Portman. The fact that this movie comes, like, right around the time that, like, my only really, real knowledge of Henry Rollins was, like, showing up on MTV, like, MTV Live. or whatever, just, like, talking about stuff or whatever. Like, I never really listened to, like, his music or anything like that. He was just sort of this, like, really kind of, like, buff rocker guy who, like, took off

his shirt a lot. And I was just like, okay, $800. Like, I'm into that. But, wait, what was I? This is, like, this is Treo the year before from Dusk till Dawn, which I feel like was a big one for him. And then, oh, it's Michael T. Williamson the year after. Forrest Gump, which is, I think, just very funny.

Right? Like, kind of amazing. Mm-hmm. What a cast. What, like, genuinely, it's, this. It is shocking we did not hit a six-timers club on this episode. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Kind of amazing. If you were, I'm going to put this question out to the table and then maybe we can do last notes and then we'll do the IMDB game. If you were to be able to hand out one acting Oscar nomination for this cast, where does it go? Chris, you go first. God, that's hard. I mean, I don't know.

I am a big fan of De Niro in this mode. But saying De Niro of this whole cast feels so kind of, I don't want to feel lazy for saying De Niro. I don't think it's lazy because it's so good. Yeah, I mean that way too. So I'm just going to say De Niro. Mm-hmm. Roxanna, what about you? I mean, I would give it to De Niro if he did not already have it from Chris.

Thank you, Chris. I would give it to Val. We're spreading the wealth here. I really feel like Val is, like, genuinely very unexpected in this movie, and I think he does things with, like, how exhausted this character is of this life that are very impressive. I mean, obviously, like, you know, the scene with De Niro where he talks about how, like, for him, you know, like, what is it? For me, the sun rises and sets with her, man. God. Talk about swooning.

Yeah. Talk about, like, Roman. Like, that's beautiful. And obviously, like, we've talked about, like, they're goodbye. But, like, his face when she makes, like, the whole movement. Yeah. Like, so all of that, I just think Val is, like, really very. good. And I think as much as I have talked about how hot he is in this movie, because he is,

ultimately there is like an inner depth to this character that I do understand why he's on the poster because, yes, they needed to leverage like his Batman-ness. But I think he has like the most interiority. And that's because of how Val plays him. Yeah. Well, you both took my other two answers. So I'm just going to say, uh, I'll throw it to Ashley Judd. who I, it's very limited screen time in this movie. But I, this era also of Ashley Judd is, is incredible, this, you know, mid to late 90s. Love her in this. Any other last thoughts before we move into the IMDB game?

John Voigt, who we didn't talk about, is styled exactly like Colin Farrell is in Miami. Yes. Like the very same, yes. Carbon copy. You could say these are the same characters at. two different timelines. Miami Vice is also, is not only set in the past, but in a galaxy far, far away. That's Miami.

That movie is somewhat from space. I finally caught up to that movie for the first time. That, I feel like maybe that's the movie that people are more annoying about in terms of Michael Man movies, but I actually, I'm present. I'm right here. I'm not saying, you are not annoying. I, I kind of. loved the experience of Miami Vice if I didn't always think it was good.

The thing about Michael Mann is like, I'm sure listeners have, you know, think that I think one thing about Michael Mann, but like, I do like most of his movies that I've seen. And I have to take back the earlier statement of what my favorites are because I do have to shout out Thief, which is at least just as a visual experience, incredible. Man Hunter is also really, really great. Yeah. I still have a lot of catching up to do with Michael Mann. I think in general, though, I'm not super negative on any one Michael Man movie that I can really think.

Certainly it's not like a Ridley Scott thing where I'm just like, yes, he's done really good movies, but he's done like really bad movies too. It's like Michael Man is much more of a crap. Right, right. I do think there is, there still is, and I think probably inevitably maybe always going to be a little bit of alienation for me from the, the, the, the, and I say this with kindness, the cult of Michael Mann. But that's fine because, like, I, I'm the person who, like, just yesterday made another meme about the hours. So, like, I get it. We all have our own little niches. And I can't expect to connect to everybody else's tastes the way. I can't expect other people to connect to mine. So we are. Chris, something about Miami Vice. Go for it. Oh, go for it. Chris, do you feel like that ending is the same as the Ashley Val ending in heat?

I feel like it's the same kind of like romantic melancholy, which I always love when it does. I mean, I felt a little more swoony with Miami Vice, whereas like... There's something about that departure in heat where it's just like, just never was going to happen, man. Whereas, like, Miami Vice feels more overtly romantic to me. Yeah. I think they're grappling with the same idea. Yeah. About, like, relationships can't last in certain kinds of work, which I sort of respect.

well and the other thing about Miami Vice is that feels more like the how do I want to phrase this like the thematically the A theme whereas like the moment in heat is more like this is maybe the C theme and we've and we're going to get back to A and B that's fair that makes sense everything she gives in that scene when she's when she gives the gesture but all Also, when she says that that wasn't Chris down there, and then Michael T. Williamson says to check the car anyway. And the look on her face was just like, did I just like fuck this up? Is this just like, it's incredible acting. It's incredible acting. I love it. Okay. I feel like we talked about pretty much everything I would want to talk about. I think the only other thing that I would say is like the opening, the opening robbery is so good. And that turn, like the wangro turn when he kills the guards is just like, I remember the first time I saw it and I was like, oh, my God. And I still feel that every time. It is. Well, and you do, like, even knowing it's coming, you're just like, oh, like, don't fuck this up. And like, it really is. It's epic because it really does just like set.

It's that first domino that falls down. and it's perfect. It is like pretty perfect the way that they incorporate that character into that movie. Man, it's really good. Guys, I've just decided. He's really good. Joe, do you have any other last notes? Oh, my last note is, what do we think of the Moby song during the final showdown at L.A.X?

I'm going to divert and say, God, the Elliott-Goldenthal score is so, good. I am a big proponent of the 10-year trend where people would just like use Moby in movies. I love the beach and I love the failure of the beach. Joe, you're going to love Miami Vice then.

If you like Moby and movies, it's basically... That's so funny. All I ever hear about is the J.C. Lincoln Park thing, but like spiritually it feels correct. I feel like there has I feel like there might be but yes, strong Lincoln Park representation. Sure.

I love that Michael Mann loves Lincoln Park and Audio Slave, just like me for real, for real. And it's a good time. Audio Slave feels like a band who all of the members could have been in different Michael Man movies, the way that, like, Henry Rollins shows up in this. Like, at some point, I wouldn't be surprised if, like, Tom Morello had been, like, a lawyer in Black Hat or something like that. I would have seen that. RIP to Chris Cornell.

Because he did a little bit of acting. I could have seen him. God, talk about people who. who were beautiful in the 1990s, like Chris Cornell. Yeah. All right. Chris, do you want to read off the rules to the IMDB game? Put a man an eyeliner and an eyebrow ring and Joe is toast. I'm not beating those. I'm not beating those allegations.

No, they are. They are sticking. Yes, they are. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. That's not enough. It just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That is the IMDB game.

All right. Roxanna, as our guest, we are offering to you the choice for whether you want to present a challenge or accept a challenge first. and then you can set this little round-robin in whichever direction you want. So either you give a name to one of us or you guess from one of us. Okay. I will accept the challenge because I remember this being really hard but really fun and I did really badly, so I'm excited. So I will accept. And then does that mean that I then...

From me or from Chris. God damn it I'm looking in both of your eyes This is so hard Angelic eyes Oh my gosh I don't know Picking

Whoever you Have you have also picked Who would you rather give that to Okay Yeah that's an easier way to think about it Yeah Okay I will pick I will pick Joe

Okay so Chris will from? Okay. So I will challenge you. Okay. All right. Cool, cool, cool. And then you can challenge Chris and Chris can challenge me. Okay. So I ruminated on the existence of the Miami Vice movie. And then I thought, well, Miami Vice based on the television show that starred, among other people, the great Edward James Almost. And we've never done Edward James Almost on this. He has one television show and three movies. So can you pull off Edward James almost? Okay.

There are like three then immediately come to mind and then I don't know what the fourth one would be. Okay. But, okay, I would think, I would think Blade Runner? Correct. Blade Runner is one of them. Okay, okay. I would think... I would think Selena?

Yes, correct, two for two. Okay. And there's still a TV show. Yes, there's a TV show and a movie that are remaining. Okay, I remember. Okay, I think Dan and Deliver? Correct.

Three for three. All you need to do is guess the TV show that is on has known for. I mean, this is going to be very bad as a television critic, but I genuinely cannot. I have no idea. He's the lead of this show. So this tells me that you didn't watch the show because if you watched it, you would... I would have no memory.

If you haven't watched it, I think you would be able to think it. So he was the lead of it. It did not get like Emmy nominations, but critics loved it. Like, it was one of those, like, best shows that's not getting nominated for Emmys. It's genre. It was on... Well, his co-star got an Emmy nomination for it, right? Nope.

No, I don't believe so. She did. Nope, never, never. I mean, if it's genre... It was on cable, basic cable. Okay, okay, okay. But if it's genre and basic cable, then that tells me it's like a TNT or a TBS or like a sci-fi. And like the big one of those shows that I did not watch was Battlestar?

Battlestar Galactica, in fact, he is the lead of Battlestar Galactica. Why don't I remember Mary MacDonald is getting nominated for that show? I don't know. Maybe because people really wanted it, but she... You can double check it, but I'm pretty sure never. Or like the two big sci-fi shows that, like... Oh, the expanse.

I should watch at some point. I genuinely think you would really love Battlestar Galactica. Like, I think that's a show that I can see you really loving. I'm double-checking to make sure Mary MacDonald never got not... Oh, I love The Expans, too, but like I'm less confident in recommending that show to people because it does get like weirdo-shmurdo uh it goes a little off the rails um plus i never finished it i got to finish it at some point um i feel like that was like one of the only shows that like it had like a scandal but like it dealt with it right am i

remembering this correctly i don't remember the scandal for the expanse although god i thought that there was like a cast member who was doing like sexual harassment or like abuse things and they just, like, fired them immediately, I thought. I should also say that, like, many people feel like Battlestar Galactica also went off the rails in the last season, so, like, no promises, but it ends well. But what ends well these days? All right. So you all now quiz Chris.

Okay. So, so I go to this person's page. Yeah, just pick, yeah, yeah, whatever name you've selected, you give to Chris. Okay. This is hard. I'm going to go with my first suggestion for this, which was Kirsten Dunst. All right. Oh, fun.

Okay. I love this. Bring it on. Okay. Oh, that wasn't just a sentiment. That's a guess. Oh, yeah. Oh.

Oh, Kirsten. It is, that is incorrect. Oh, wow. Okay. That's surprising. That's going to throw me off. It is surprising. I was surprised by that as well.

but thank you joe i was like yeah okay i did think for a second you were just like bring it on man let's do it oh power of the dog did show up for somebody else so i'm gonna say power of the dog um chris that is also incorrect wow didn't it show up did it show for jesse plemmins joe somebody that's different than her okay um wow what are my ears then Are, I'm sorry. No, you give them the years of the four movies that are still remaining.

Okay. So you have two selections from 1994. Cool. You have one selection from 2002. And you have one selection from 2011. Okay. 2002 is Spider-Man. Correct.

One of the 94's is interview with a vampire. Correct. Colon, the Vampire Chronicles. So now you're at 50%. So another 1994 and a 2011. Is it Little Women? Correct. So you have...

Little Women, but not Jamanshi, is wild. It is a little wild. No Bring It On is a little wild. No Virgin suicides. No Marie Antoinette. Oh, my God. Come on. Yeah.

Yeah, okay, so 2011, which were we just talking about 2011, Joe? He might have been. Would you like a clue of some kind? Am I allowed to provide a clue, Joe? I think I can maybe get there. Okay. Oh, okay. So this is the year, at least Oscar year, this is the artist.

Yeah. Which, I don't think that's going to help me. Okay. doing award stuff, but what would she have been in that was like a sizable movie? Okay, go ahead and give me a clue. Okay. Her co-star in this is a very tall Swedish man who has a bunch of other Swedish siblings. Oh, okay.

So this, it's a, it's a Sars guard or Scarsguard. Is it too early to have been... It's not Wimbledon, is it? Because that's Paul Bettany. That's Paul Betteny. Wimbledon's way earlier. I will say this movie was on a recent IMDB game for somebody else, Chris, and you also took similarly longer than I expected time to guess it.

Time to get to it, okay. Joe, damn. Well, I know that Chris loves this movie, which is why it's always so funny to me that he can never remember it. Okay. But with a scar, oh, it's melancholyum. Yes.

There you go. Yes. Good job, Chris. Well done. Well done. All right. Yeah, it was on the Charlotte Rampling known for also.

And I remember you being like, who is it? And I'm like, she's mean in it. And you're like, I don't know. She's mean and everything. She could have, it would have been, she could have been Bachelorette if it were mean.

Oh, she's so good in Bachelorette. She's so good in Bachelorette. She's so good in Bachelorette. I love her in that, love that movie. Yeah. Um, okay. So for you, I went into the most desirable male lineup from that MTV movie awards. And I pulled for you, Mr. Kianu Reeves. Okay. Kianu. I don't know how we've never done Kianu. Probably because for a while there, it was probably like three Matrix movies. And so we didn't want to do something that was the monochrome in that way. But who was it? It was Regina Hall that you gave me. that it was like the scary movies were somewhat at random.

Yes. Is that a clue? So I'm going to guess the original Matrix. Yes. Speed. Correct. Speed is so fucking good.

Speaking of movies that were in the mid-90s in that way. I think I talk about speed the way people talk about heat where I'm just like, the scene where the bus hits the buggy full of cans

is my shootout in front of the bank. Like, genuinely, that is, that's the truest thing I've ever said about myself. Okay. I don't think it's going to be Bill and Ted, but I'm going to put a pin in that. John Wick? Incorrect. If it's a John Wick sequel, I'm going to be that.

Shocking, by the way. I'm shocked by that. Yeah, they're so popular. I finally started watching the John Wick movies this year. year. I've only watched the first two. I'm going to watch the other two because I wrote about the Continental. Wait, Roxanna, you and I talked about the Continental, right? Yeah, we had conversations about the Continental. What? Christopher Walken were you at conversation?

Oh, see? That's, you can't call something the Continental because it does make people think about Christopher Walken, yeah, if nothing else. Okay. Keanu. Oh, if only it was Bram Stoker's Dracula. That would be so funny. Is there a second Matrix? Is it the Matrix reloaded? Correct. Okay. Okay.

Okay. And then I'm going to say... You're close to a perfect. Oh, no, you guessed John Wick. You're not going to get a perfect. I will say, because of the occasion of us talking about Heat, I'm going to guess the devil's advocate. Also incorrect. Damn.

So... Is Al Pacino more animated? in Heat or The Devil's Advocate. They are very similar. They're very similar, but I think it's Devils Advocate. Joe, why don't you think about movies about guys being dudes? Oh, point break. It's from 1991.

Point break. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Good clip. Point break being on his known for is really fucking cool. Yes, it is. No John Wicks is shocking. It's shocking. It's shocking. They're Matrix Reloaded should be John Wick. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Matrix Reloaded is still my favorite. favorite of the Matrix sequels. It's the only one of the Matrix sequels I really like, but it's not really for Keanu. It's for the highway chase, I guess, more than anything. Yeah, the Highway Chase

fucking rules. Monica Belucci. I love, I love the sequels, but the sequel for me is Resurrections. That's the most recent one. Yeah, that's the most recent one. I'm definitely reloaded because I love everything about the Meravingian and, like, how disgusting he is. So disgusting. He's so fucking disgusting. And Monica Baluci being sewn into her fucking latex dress. Yes. Oh, my God. Like, talk about a costume award that should have happened.

Like, my goodness. Talk with Vincent Castle cheating on her. What's wrong with you, Vincent? I have so many questions. Was it with somebody famous or was it just like with like somebody? No, she was like 19. It was like with a 19-year-old model. And then he married her and then cheated on her and they got divorced.

So Vincent has a problem. Like, they're doing it differently in France. Not good. Roxanna, once again. A delight. A delight. The only person we could have talked to about this movie, but also come back anytime and talk to us about any movie. What a delight to be here.

If you get any other promotional swag that confuses us, we'll talk it over. We'll figure it out. Any other? Jacob Alorty wears anything that evokes. high school high school memories. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it.

I'm so glad that you had an Adam Driver performance in a movie that you really related to. Okay. Is there anything you want to point our listeners towards? Where can they read more from you? Where can they find you? What? You can find me at Vulture and you can find me on Twitter for now. I don't know how much longer I will be doing that.

to be the general. The general feeling. Yes. Twitter for now. Yeah. Twitter for now. But that's where you can find me. Thank you for finding me if you do. Read Roxanna on Vulture. Everything is really fantastic. Oh, what did you write really recently that I really loved? Shoot. I mean, read everything. There was something very recently, though, where I shit. Oh, it was the one about Rami. A really, really great piece about Rami. Thank you, Joe. God, my memory is. bad. We've been talking about this movie for so long. I can't think of anything. Anyway, that is our episode. Listeners, if you want more of this at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at Had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz, our Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz. And if you're not already signed up, find our Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. Chris, where should the listeners find you.

You can find me on socials at Chris V-File. That's F-E-I-L. I am on Blue Sky at Joe Reed, read-spelled R-E-I-D. I am also on letterboxed. Joe Reed, read-spelled the same way. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance,

Taylor Cole for our theme music. Please remember you can rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever else you get podcasts, a five-star review, in particular, really help us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So when you're done silently warning your boyfriend to get the hell out because the heats around the corner, say something nice about us. That is all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Thank you.