This Had Oscar Buzz - 268 – Shattered Glass (with Richard Lawson!)

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Hayden Christensen arrived seemingly out of nowhere to land the role of pre-Vader Anakin Skywalker, becoming one of Hollywood’s hottest stars overnight and largely untested as a screen presence. After a respected turn in Life As A House(see previous episode!), the Attack of the Clones reviews soured audiences on this brand new star. The very next year, he … Continue reading "268 – Shattered Glass (with Richard Lawson!)"

Oh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melon Hack, Millen Hack and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh. Was that true? This wasn't an isolated incident. He ended us fiction after fiction, and we printed them all as fact.

What you're telling me is impossible. If you were a stranger to you, you'd dig and you'd bury it. Wait, there is one thing in the story that checks out. What's that? There does appear to be a state in the union named Nevada. Hayden Christensen. You're my editor. You're supposed to support me.

Peter Sarsgaard. This thing blows. There isn't going to be a magazine anymore. I didn't do anything wrong. You saw my notes. Everything was in there. They're going to have all this too. I didn't do anything wrong.

I really wish you'd stop saying that. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast ready to drop everything in 30 seconds flat if we feel the heat coming around the corner. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with my big bad bionic boy, Chris Fyle. Hello, Chris. I want a lifetime subscription to Playboy. I want to go to Disneyland. I want Claire

Foy to remake this movie just to hear her say Big Bad Bionic Boy. You're just a bunch of big bad bionic boys playing with your Balsall. I'm excited to talk about this movie, Chris. love this movie. This is one we've had in our back pocket forever. I'm sure we've said it a bunch of times on the podcast that like, oh, we got to do that at some point. It's always fun to go back to 03, which was our original main mini series. That's true. This was one we threw, if I remember correctly, to the listener's choice episode. I think you're right. What won that listener's choice? I might have gotten second place or something. What was the listener's choice winner that year in 2003? Oh boy, let me find it. We did the missing?

We did the human stain, didn't we? Yes, we did do the human stain. Human stain might have won the listeners' choice, as demented as that sounds. The winner was in the cut. Right. Oh, you know what? Champion's in the cut. That's a good choice, listeners.

That's a very good choice. Good May miniseries. That was fun. Somebody who has also participated in a past May miniseries of ours when we did the films of Naomi Watts is our guest this. week. I deeply, deeply requested him personally to be our guest for Shattered Glass for reasons. I know we joke about this movie, but also the fact that he is the film and TV critic at Vanity Fair, the publication that did the article by Buzz Bissinger that this movie is based on.

You know him from our episodes on Evening, Diana and the Medler, film critic extraordinaire, Richard Loss and welcome back to this at Oscar Buzz. Are you mad at me? It's the line of the movie. It's so good. It's repeated so many times and it communicates everything about this whole thing. You really know that like you get the whole sense of how this happened and what the atmosphere was like and like journalism in the sort of tech, the beginning of these sort of tech boom times. and what an interesting time.

I'm very, I'm very given to 90s nostalgia at all times. And this is one of the few things where it's like, it's 90s nostalgia, but you look back and it's just like, oh, this is bad. This is like, internet times were bad. Like that Yahoo splash page just made me depressed looking at it. And then you look at this sort of like era of the New Republic and you're, like, oh, God, like, this is all so, like, poisoned on so many levels. Yeah. I mean, you watch this movie, you know, with the hindsight of, however, you know, two plus decades. And you're like, oh, this is a tragedy on a much bigger scale because none of these people know what's coming.

Right. Yeah. Right. You know, like, this is the last moment of like something resembling what it always had been. And then everything falls off a cliff like the next month. Well, and it's so funny that like the virtuous ones in this and like and rightly so I would say are well we'll get we'll talk about the chuck lane thing which like I think this is an a minus movie that gets bumped down to a B plus because of one scene and it's the one where they all applaud chuck at the end where I'm just like well this just strikes such a false note um but the virtuous ones in this are the Forbes digital ones and yet like what's the thing that's going to end up like completely destroying the integrity of journalism and information and whatever it's digital uh

you know, digital journalism. And so I'm like, that's ironic. The print publishers in this are the, are the Goliaths. And digital is the little, you know, underdog David. And you're like, oh, that's not going to be the case for much longer. Right. Exactly. But also in, in watching the movie, I've got, as I often do, especially for a movie that I've already seen before, I've got the Wikipedia page open. And I'm like following down little rabbit holes, right, of like various characters because they're all real people and so it's like Marty Perrette's and Michael Kelly and Chuck

Lane and whatever and you follow all of these different rabbit holes down past the New Republic and the Atlantic Monthly and all this sort of stuff and it's just like the one common theme for all of these was like vociferously supported the war in Iraq vociferously supported the war in Iraq was a standout supporter

of American intervention in Iraq and just like oh God like it's such a poison pill at the center of all this and obviously that's not the only issue that, you know, that's not the only stain on various journalists' careers from that point. But I was like, oh, it's so, like, it's so very hard to find heroes in this story. And much as I think sometimes in the movie would like you to find some heroes in the story, but it was just like, Chuck Lane is now like a regular contributor on Fox News. Fox News.

And all this stuff. And Michael Kelly, who had just died, but was just, just like a very raw, raw supporter of the war, as was Marty Perrette's and all these things. Marty Perretz, who they don't mention in the movie that the proximate reason for him firing Michael Kelly was that Michael Kelly was going in on Al Gore and Gore was a friend of Peretz's. Like, these rabbit holes led me down to like Chris Hughes kinds of places. So, like, I really went Far afield as I was watching this movie last night. I don't know if I was the only one who... Well, I think one of the interesting things. specifically about this movie is like the moment in time that it's capturing as you were describing in terms of what would be coming with digital media.

But this is also a movie that maybe even if it's about a person and their deceptions that maybe five years later they wouldn't have been able to get away with because of the proliferation of things like a Google search, which, you know, the journalist that Steve Zon plays in the movie does. you know, find out some of the stuff. He gets his Yahoo on, yep. Yeah, he gets his Yahoo on. Please insert an audio clip of the early days, yeah. Sure, of course. I will find that, yeah. The, that, you know, he's able to find that

information, or lack of information, I should say, that, you know, glass wouldn't have been able to get away with these just outright fabrications and lies. yeah very shortly after he's caught richard you're sort of my uh one of my touchstones for right whenever i like i'm like oh i should know what this writer is known for or like this sort of new york sort of literary anything new york literary or um you know stuff from that corner of the media world from before i moved to new york you're one of my go-toes because i'm like you at the very least seem to have like an operational knowledge of that um were was something like

because you're of course you know several years younger than i am and i was barely out of high school when this thing happened at the at the new republic i was vaguely aware of the new republic as like a magazine i didn't know quite the like whole like you know in-flight magazine of air force one and stuff like that but like to what degree were you sort of like plugged into any of this kind of stuff. I wasn't aware of this story until I think I saw this movie because I was aware of the Atlantic and the New Yorker and other magazines because my parents had subscriptions, but they never had a subscription to the New Republic. So it was not really one that was like on my

radar. But I think by the time I saw this movie, I knew that that was, it's a big deal that had happened there, you know, because it was very respected in a certain way. And you see when Steve's on talks about it, he's like, you know, and that sort of cohort where they're like, oh, they're really excited to knock them off their high horse, you know? Right. And I think that that's what, partly what makes this story so interesting is it's like, it would be interesting if it happened anywhere. It could be, you know, the Cleveland Plain dealer or the Boston Globe or whatever, and that would be big enough. But because it's this kind of publication that really prided itself on its sort of lofty positioning.

Yeah. It makes it that much juicier. And I just don't know if a similar thing, I guess if it were to happen at the New York or now, that would be the, that would be the comparison. Right. Because, like, well, they had the Jason Blair thing at the Times. Yeah, and Joan Aller too. Yeah.

But the Times was almost too big to, like, there was something not quite niche about the New Republic, but there was something a little bespoke maybe about the New Republic. Yeah. where it felt very, um, like fussy a little bit maybe and a little, um, well, it was exclusive in a way that, like, it's hard to get a job at the New York Times, but they have a lot of reporters, you know, where something like this. I mean, like, I'm not saying that she would ever do this, but like, it's if it's like Gia Tolentino got caught, you know, making stuff up, like, because Glass was this young phenom, like, I don't know that that kind of celebrity

as a reporter is really possible in today's ecosystem, but also at something as big as the time. Certainly not to the degree that it was. I know that, like, we who work in media have our own little sort of circle of people that we know about and are sort of like notable, notable, noted within our circles, but it doesn't really extend too far from that. I should confess, I've never seen any of the movies I've reviewed. Except for the ones that Disney paid you for. Well, yeah, but that's separate. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the other thing. Well, when we get into this, I do want to talk about the fact-checking of it all. And my fact-checking experience at places like Vanity Fair and Vulture, which is what, you know, has me so not incredulous, but just sort of like gobsmacked about how something like this could happen.

But before we get into sort of the nuts and bolts of the movie, one of the things that we're so interested to talk about this movie is like, I think we all agree that this is like the Hayden Christensen performance to sort of hang your hat on among all of them. We talked about him. It's the go-to when people say, what happened to him? And you always say, I don't know. And he was so good in Shutter class. That's the thing. We've talked about my life as a house. And I appreciated his performance in that.

But that's, you know, he's a teenager in that and he's sort of, you know, it's one of those things where people like, God, I hate that guy. And I'm like, well, he's playing a bratty teenager. Like it's, you know, you're not really supposed to love that guy. We'll talk about the EW It List, obviously. I do want to do that very soon. But in his interview, I was really struck because I guess maybe I didn't put two and two together or I forgot, you know, as his career has gone on. He was 19 when he was cast in Star Wars. It's 19 years old. That's so young. Yep. Which would like, yeah, he's like, he's still probably like what you would consider like in your prime right now. You know what I mean?

Like as, uh, as an actual. He's appropriately cast in this movie because all of these people were in their early mid-20s. So, uh, Chris, you referenced the EW. It list, which as soon as we reached out to, to Richard to, uh, to talk about this, immediately the touchstone, uh, we came to was. the 2000 Entertainment Weekly It List issue from summer 2000, where Hayden Christensen's on the cover, and I think all of us, I was 19 at the time, and I was, you know, entranced by this gorgeous Canadian, gorgeous Vancouverite on the cover.

This was his reveal, right? Like, this was the first bit of press that they had done kind of announcing, oh, we found our young Darth Vader, right? I think so, yes. And I remember... It certainly was the first time I remember seeing him, because I didn't watch that TV show. This was like the summer before my senior year of high school.

And I remember that coming in the mail and being like, oh, I've seen the most beautiful human being that's ever existed. Like, I was like so into him in this way that, you know, was maybe one of my last, like, huge celebrity fixations, I think. Yeah. as somebody who has maintained huge celebrity's fixations throughout my life, it definitely was one very much of that moment. And it's just like it's just like it's this adorable smile on this sort of, you know, unpresupposing guy. And then he uses that to such an advantage in,

in shattered glass, which we'll definitely get into. The one quote I did write down from the article in EW that accompanied that cover. Well, two things. One of which is that he wanted to go to Harvard on a tennis scholarship, which I find both like eyebrow raising but also adorable. The tennis part, I'm just like, oh, he's the tennis boy. But also it's like. Well, and it didn't not make me think of Felicity Huffman a little bit too, where it was just like, at what point did they, you know, abandon the plan to, you know, get him a fraudulent scholarship to Harvard? Oh, I thought you made, because Felicity Huffman, you know, know, was originally supposed to play Anakin Skywalker. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But then she had been great.

I would have been, those prequels would have had an entirely different, different trajectory. And because she didn't do it, William H. Macy did not get to build a swimming pool in the backyard until Desperate Housewives came along. The thing about, you know,

this specific cover, because this is one of the, and mentioning it as like the reveal to the world of Hayden Christensen. Though, I mean, I think the announcement existed before this cover, but it is his first press. And as you read that interview and the quotes that they pull from him, it's very clear that he's not media trained at that point, too. Because his quotes are like, I like my mom.

He sounds, you know, I don't want to say boring, but like he doesn't know how to josh up some of his quotes, et cetera. But it adds to this level of, you know, both of you mentioning this is like celebrity. crushville in this cover, it adds to kind of the mystique that he's this handsome guy pulled absolutely out of nowhere. Yeah. And now he's on cover. He was on some Fox family show called Higher Ground that I didn't watch, that I wasn't quite sure whether it was like a seventh heaven kind of thing with like religious undertones

or something. I'm not entirely sure. But he also played a drug addict apparently. Well, his, right, his character was, but like, I, you know, the way that like drug addict and I'm using air quotes on like family shows where it's just like they caught him with a joint in his bedroom and it was

very serious. Have you ever seen the weed episode of 7th Heaven? No, I was never a seventh heaven watcher regularly. It's a classic. I mean the big dramatic thing is toward the end of the episode, the mom, the wife of the minister confederally

confesses that she tried weed one time and it's like a big deal. Like he, like the husband is like really disappointed in her. It's so funny the way sometimes when you watch television devolve that way because of course like one of the sitcoms that I remember watching as a little kid like with my family was family ties on NBC. And that show was completely predicated on the idea that these parents were these like, you know, not even reformed hippies, but just sort of like hippies who got older and had kids and had like the unfortunate fate of having this like Reaganite kid but like their whole thing was that they were like you know former like pot smoking you know hippies

and whatever and then all of a sudden you know uh all this time later and and you get it walked back the the one uh teenage weed moment that i remember on the tv that i watched was when tiffany amburtheson replaced shannon doherty as the sort of um lead brunette on beverly hills 90210 and she arrives and of course her whole thing was uh she was like the new bad girl and at the very end of her first episode after she's sort of like playing the nice girl new in town and whatever and she goes into a room and she like holds out her little box and rolls a joint and calls her friend back in buffalo because she was the girl who came to town from buffalo and called her friend and was just like these guys are a whole bunch of squares and she's smoking her joint and the music could not be more like you know that like errant spelling like guitar twang or whatever and i remember on seventh heaven when they sent Jessica Beale's character away, when set Jessica Beal, like, you know, wanted to do other things. And her character, like, got into some bad stuff and they sent her away where to Buffalo? So, like, that was the place where bad girls both came from and went to on teen television,

which I thought was amazing. Joe. And you were the original of that show. You were the original Buffalo bad girl. Joe, Valerie calls her friend, who we later meet on the show. Yes. And she calls them, She calls them all avocado heads. Yes. Yes. And the friend was played by the girl from Clueless. The Redhead from Clueless. What's her name?

Oh, you. Who couldn't have balls flying at her face. Oh. Elisa Donovan. Is that her name? Maybe. Anyway. God.

Tiffany Embertheson, 9902, and O, was everything to me for a while. I loved her so much. Okay. I wanted to get. So, of course, Richard and I talking about the CW issue, and I'm like, well, I have to get it. And so I went on eBay and acquired it and immediately sent Chris and Richard a scan of the cover and then a scan of Jennifer Ely from one of the pages inside. And then, so this is probably going to be a little bit

of a longer episode because we are going to do a little bit of a dive into the Entertainment Weekly 2000 It List because 2000, the summer. of 2000, culture was just in a real different place. And I wrote down 8 billion things. I don't know about you guys, but, um... It made me really feel like

Y2K was real, but the reset was cultural, not, you know, scientific. Right. You know, Y2K happened and culture shifted. It really did. Very true. The It issue in particular of EW is sort of triggering for me

because a couple years before this, I want to say it was 98, Cameron Diaz was on the cover. Sure. And I brought, because it was a double issue. It was really exciting. I brought it with me to, I went to sleepaway tennis camp for a week in Western Massachusetts. Oh, my God. And I fucked Hayden Christensen. No. No. And so I was reading it at breakfast. And this mean kid walked by and saw me reading like a girly magazine or whatever. Like not, like I wasn't reading sports. Something about, it wasn't about guns and football. And he was like, hey, so you like that magazine? I was like, yeah, yeah. And he saw that Cameron Diaz is on the cover.

And he kind of like, needlingly was like, oh, she's hot, right? And I was like, oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Anyway, so he kind of made fun of me about it like subtly for a little bit. And then later that day, we were playing capture the flag. And I was spacing out as always. And he yelled from across the field because some kid was getting past me.

He goes, yo, entertainment weekly, like wake up or something. and like and I was like so mortifying and so the it issue um does have some slightly negative connotations for me um but no I'm glad we're working past this in real time it was very good it was it quickly became a classic issue they don't they only did it for a few years I feel like I know it wasn't as enduring as their their movie previews or anything like that um a few are the ones that jumped out to me and like feel free to like jump in with your own as I go about this, but Greg Berlante supporting the soon-to-premise, or I guess it had been at Sundance, the Broken Hearts Club, which is of that genre of middle-to-lower-brow gay rom-coms of the

Outs, Broken Hearts Club has always been my favorite. So I don't know. Have you, I know Richard you've seen it. Have you seen it, Chris? Yes, not in a long time. It's, you know, as all of those movies are flawed and dated and but like there is a sort of purity to those kinds of movies too where it's just like we're just you know going to hit this sort of like mid level of rom-com and i do miss those um jason biggs and mina suvari are there promoting their upcoming amy heckerling movie loser yeah loser which first of all the the backhand of this line that begins this blurb

which is after a seemingly bottomless pool of tepidly talented teens these two have emerged as the most likely to have careers after 30 which incorrect

I believe Entertainment Weekly I forget if it was Glyberman or Schwartzbaum that they gave it an F review. Oh loser was very very poorly reviewed I remember that yes I think it was yeah and I think they put it on their worst of the year Well, what's so funny is that, like, they talk about, like, these, like, tepidly talented teens or whatever that, like, and of course, who were some of their co-stars in these movies that they were coming from is, like, Natasha Leone was in, you know, American Pie, and who, I'm trying to remember the other people in Loser. I know Tom Sadowski was one of the people in Loser. That's the one that I sort of remember.

Greg Kinnear is like the adult professor. Yes, yes. But that's such an odd movie. Okay. Wait. Because it's like, Biggs is sort of the, right, he's the titular loser and the sort of, oh, so it's, oh God, it is Zach Orth, who in every movie I see Zach Orth in. He's just like the most annoying person. Jimmy Simpson and Tom Sadowski. So like at like worst, Jimmy Simpson and Tom Sadowski have better and longer lasting careers. And West Bentley, too, you know, Survari's co-star in American Beauty. Like, he's. obviously had some time out in the woods, but he's back now in a way. Yeah, totally. Wait, I'm sending you the EW photo of the three friends of Jason Biggs and this. I'm going to send it in the chat.

We'll put it in the notes when we put this up because it is emblematic of that era. Like, I don't even know what this is supposed to communicate, right? Like, that's maybe worth... This is us recording this podcast right now. They're all dressed like aliens from a boy band planet. Like the fifth element, if the fifth element was like just about... It's heterosexual party monster. Heterosexual party monster.

They've listened to the first prodigy album a lot of times. Yeah. Right. The other... They're extras in a Len music video. Another line that I had to write down because it did make me cringe out of my body was when they uh jamie fox who was like that's a good call calling jamie fox when he was like just on that w b sitcom and was just about to star in any given sunday like that's a decent like

call your shot kind of a moment but it begins with when did this in living color alum and wb sitcom star go from being our favorite street flavored wacky comedian to being our great black hope who yeah i want my skeleton to escape my body when i read some Really bad. And it's just crazy that I, I, you know, as a teenager, this magazine was a holy text for me. The Bible. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I would, I probably didn't bat an eyelash at that. And that's embarrassing. Right. Right. It is. It is. The blurb about Tony Collette references a movie. I love when they reference movies that never get made that never got made because it's like so fascinating. It references a movie that Bill Condon was going to direct and Tony Collette would co-star with Glenn Close. called Queen Bess. And so I'm like, I have to find out what this movie was about. And so I found a daily news article from 1999 when Sigourney Weaver was attached to the role, not Glenn Close.

And it was about this woman named Bess, I think it's Meyerson from like the 1940s, 50, 60, something like that, who was the first Jewish Miss America who went on to become a politician, the most powerful woman in New York political circles before allegations of influence peddling forced her to resign as the city's commissioner of cultural affairs in 1980. So I would have enjoyed this movie. And maybe that's the great Glenn Close Oscar that never happened. I was just going to say, that was it. That was it. Sliding doors. There is an alternate universe where it's happened. I was more fascinated by the things that did happen, the like kind of hiding in plain sight projects right in the, that are in this issue. On the same page, you have Sophia Coppola and

Mike White mentioning future projects. Sophia Coppola saying the person she most wants to work with is Bill Murray. Yep, yep. And saying she wants to do something that's just really indulgent to get her out of her system. Curious if that energy is towards Marie Antoinette. But then in the Mike White one, there's a prod, he mentions a project that's about a Mary Poppins meets Willie Wonka, which has to be School of Rock. Wow. Yeah. I can see that.

I can see a lot of that. That's what. So at that point, Mike White was promoting Chuck and Buck, I guess. Yes. Yeah. Because all of this issue is secretly promotions for various projects from the year 2000. Yeah. The Penelope Cruz blurb, I remember when I talk about, when we would do our episode on like all the pretty horses or whatever, and I talked about how Penelope Cruz was being sort of foisted.

it upon American culture as like, this is your next new big sort of foreign import. This is probably the thing that I'm thinking of because I remember reading this and then being like, she's the greatest Spanish language actress in the world and she's going to be in like three movies coming up and they're all going to be great. It's woman on top and all the pretty horses. And I think she was already cast in Blow by that point. By the way, speaking of Blow, how many people did you notice talk about when they're like, who would you like to work with, they all say Johnny Depp. It was a very, like, I want to work

with Johnny Depp point. Johnny Depp and Scorsese. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because both Tony, Colette and Penelope Cruz do say Scorsese. I also like that Penelope Cruz said that to get herself ready for scenes, she listens to she said, like, some like very aggressive music. She's like, either Mahler or

Marilyn Manson or Jeff Buckley. I'm like... Tar-coded. Or just, like, could not think of three more disparate... Moller, Marilynne, and Jeff Buckley is... Tar. It's true. Penelope Cruz as Tar, much, you know, wouldn't replace Cape Blanchet for the world, but like Penelope Cruz as Tar would have been very funny. I'm very curious about the excerpt that they have from Almost Famous, I read every word and was just sort of like

sighed contentedly. What a wonderful scene. The scene with Patrick Fuggett and Philip Seymour Hoffman. Did any, either of you note the thing in the blurb on Marla Sokol off, who played the office manager on the practice at that time. That would she had a big famous fan? Yeah, yeah. Angelina Jolie at the Golden Globes told her that she watches the practice. I was like, Angelina, we could have been talking about the practice this whole time, you and me. We could have been friends.

But how famous was Angelina then? Because I guess had Girl Interrupted happened? It had. Yes, but just. She had just won. And she had won a Golden Globe the year before for that TV movie, George Wallace, the Gary Sinise movie, where he played. Southern politician, George Wallace. Did she win that before her Gia?

Yes. It was George Wallace for supporting, then Gia for lead, and then Girl Interrupted. I think it was like three consecutive Golden Globes. Let's not forget her breakthrough win at National Border Review for playing by heart. That's a good point. But I love any of those stories where like big movie stars admit to watching sort of like, I mean, the practice was kind of high. Because it won an Emmy for Best Series, but it was still like a network legal, you know, procedural or whatever. God, I did either of you watch the practice? I watched, I watched, I was obsessed with that show. Never. I read so much about it because E.W. covered it like crazy.

That's probably why I watched it. But I never, because I was only allowed, um, to watch prime time television one night a week. And that was, um, me, my mom and my sister watching 902 and O. Um, I think at some point when I was in high school, my parents just, sort of decided to let me watch whatever I wanted. And that was probably just like my senior year. And that was right around the time that the practice was getting popular. So that probably makes a lot of sense. Eventually, my parents were unable to fight the force that was the WB. Right. And that, like, Buffy and Dawson's Creek and other things were just like, I just needed

to watch them. And I think they understood that, like, there was no stopping me from doing that. Speaking of the thing about the WB was that coincided with, like, my sibling and I all getting our own TVs for our bedroom. So it's like I'm watching these things on a 12-inch, you know, box TV. Yeah. And my sister and I, I remember, we were not allowed to watch Dawson's Creek, but we still snuck into, like, a bedroom and watched it together with the volume all

the way down, you know, six inches away from the screen so we could hear it. My parents were very much opposed to letting us have TVs in our bedroom. and I shared a bedroom with my brother until, I can't remember what year of high school I was in, but eventually my brother and I wanted our own bedrooms. And so my brother moved his bedroom into our finished basement. Our finished basement became his bedroom. But before that, it would be like negotiating with my brother and my sister over what we would watch on television. So there was a lot of like compromise, which is why like my sister and I teamed up and we would watch 902 and O.

And like, and I think eventually Melrose Place, although my sister was definitely too young to watch Melrose Place. Maybe that was just me who watched Melrose Place. But anyway, and then when my brother moved into the basement, that's when I, that's when my parents allowed me to put one of the TVs in my bedroom. And that's when they were just like, you know what, we're not going to fight this anymore. Just like, you're a senior watch whatever you want. And that was when I really like, that was when this beast was unleashed. My parents would never have let me have a TV in my bedroom, and yet they let me have a computer with internet access in my bedroom, which where you can find other kinds of films. Fight the real enemy. Well, actually, in those days, it was still images. Right. So the next one that I wrote down was there was a blur about Sarah Jessica Parker and Darren Starr, because just sex in the city was already a big thing. I wrote down the quote from Sarah Jessica that said, I keep the word grace programmed into my cell phone display.

it reminds me to be good to people, which is a tremendous quote. I didn't watch Sex in the City until it was at least a few seasons in. And even then, I was like, I was not as fervent a viewer, but I know that, like, you two both were. So, like, were you watching, like, sneaking Sex in the City earlier? Did you come to that show later? That was a college thing for me. Yeah. Yeah, I was later to it, and I was old enough that I didn't really have to sneak it.

And, like, that was something that my other sister basically imprinted upon me, like, you know, sharing culture with me. Yeah. Richard, would you watch that, like, with college friends? Was that, like, a group viewing thing? Uh-huh. Yep. Yeah. My, I think the season five, so the one that was after 9-11, that aired when I was a sophomore, I think, in college.

Yeah. And we would go to an off-campus apartment and watch it. It was on during the summer. And that's what it was. It was on during the summer and friends kept the apartment between school years. So it was kind of like a hangout spot for kids who were local or stayed local. And then the final season aired my junior year when I lived in an off-capist apartment with me, a girlfriend and five straight guys. Oh, wow.

And one of the straight guys' girlfriends, she really liked it. And me and my friend, the three of us, liked it. And by the end of that season, all of the straight boys were like gathered around the TV on Sunday night. It's dying to know what happened with, you know, the Russian or big or whatever. It was really cute. I love it. Yeah. That's great.

That's great. I remember I would always read about these things. And it was always before I got to college about like when Melrose place got very popular. And they would talk about like people in common rooms on dorm floors all like watching them in the com, all like watching Melrose place in the common room. And like that never happened in my dorm. And I was always a little bit mad that I got cheated out of like that experience. So like there wasn't any one show that like everybody decided. They all had to watch together, but, you know, sometimes real life isn't as fun.

The dorm room group watch that I had, and I never ended up really loving the show, so I kind of stopped going, was Desperate Housewives. Oh, I could see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. One time I had at an off-campus apartment, and this is a true story, we had a group watch of Bellamy's Frisky Summer 2. Oh, my God, amazing. And I was like, what is it?

Summer 2 was influential, I feel like, for me as well. So that's so funny. There was a few ads that I made note of. I did not send you every ad, even though I could have, because like every time I see like a Newport Cigrat ad in a glossy magazine, I get so nostalgic. But there was a full-page ad for Josh Dumel on all my children. ABC had this ad campaign that was these like big full-page posters of like mostly yellow background and like they're sort of their big soap stars, and it would be like this very sort of like stark, you know, lettering and whatever. And Josh Dumel played Leo DePray on all my children who was a sort of like a young, rich sort of like quasi aristocrat who was raised in Europe and his mother was awful. And

he was the hottest guy on all my children. And so they very much like, he sort of like shot up immediately to be like one of the big um new stars on that show but then when i went to work at abc daytime all of these old one sheets from this ad campaign which at that point had been like years in the past were just still there and you could and because when i worked at abc daytime in new york it was literally it was kind of a ghost town floor it was only like a small handful of us most of the uh people we worked with were in la and so daytime at that point was sort of this ever-shrinking, you know, circle of talent and employees. So we had, there was just a room full of posters. And you had your pick of anything. And I remember, like, going through

and I was just like, it was like a kid in a candy store moment of just like going through all these old one sheets of all these like people from the soaps that I really loved. And so I had like this big like Susan Lucci poster in my office and, and all these other things. It was, it was incredible. If I wasn't working for a completely dying industry, that would have genuinely been such a great job for me. But, um, alas. I wrote down a couple of the ones. They had this losing it and getting it back chart that did not say that it was written by Jim Mullen, but it really had that like mean, snarky tone of a Jim Mullen where like bashing on Jennifer Love Hewitt and Nev Campbell because the teen horror.

trend was apparently dying out, which, like, I don't think so. I think teen horror kept going for a little bit more. Bashing Nicholas Cage, bashing Tommy Lee Jones, and I can't remember what Tommy Lee Jones would have done at the time to, like, make it safe to sort of rag on his career. But like, Space Cowboys. He still had several Oscar nominations to come, folks. Like, that was, uh, the meanest one was about Rosie O'Donnell, predictably, because people have felt free to be mean about Rosie O'Donnell for,

ever and the quote was can't the straight talk queen be the don't talk queen once in a while that's when I wrote down okay is this Jim Mullen because like that was I don't know shut up um they didn't like teen pop they didn't like Gwyneth and Ben which fine um A&E's biography caught astray in this list for some reason merchant ivory because they had just done the golden bowl I want to say it was a low point for merchant ivory and then David Kelly, because the bloom was a little bit coming off of that rose when he was like having eight billion shows. One of the ones that was getting it back that I wrote down was Charlie Sheen, where they're like, hey, everybody, Charlie Sheen's fine, he's on Spin City, nothing to worry about here. And I don't know. I thought that was interesting. What else did you guys note from this issue?

The Michelle Williams blurb was interesting. So good. Because she's doing an off-Broadway play, and she's interested in indie film. And, you know, her next up is just season four of Dawson's Creek. But it's like, oh, so even in 2000, it was visible if you were paying attention. Michelle Williams was like plotting a different course than her Dawson's co-stars were. Yep, yep. The off-Broadway play she was doing was Tracy Letts' Killer Joe, too, which was mind-blowing that she had done that show.

Yeah. She would have replaced Sarah Paulson, I believe, because Sarah Paulson, I think, was the original. Oh, wow. Juno Temple of the off-Broadway production. Oh, that's interesting. What else? Anything else that you guys jotted down? Oh, I think it's remarkable that there's a whole section for theater.

Yeah. Yes. Like, that would not happen today. I was going to say, like, I always talk about how my touchstone point for theater before I moved to New York was the Rosie O'Donnell show because she would have all the performances. But I underrate how much the fact that, like, EW would cover theater. And that's how I would hear about things like three days of rain or the blue room or all of these sort of, like, you know, I guess more dramatic things. Jeffrey Wright and all of these up and coming theater people. And that definitely-

They were giving a double photo shoot spread to Kenneth Lonergan and Mark Ruffalo in the year 2000. It's like a little festival darlings, you know, it's just... That's the other thing is you've got so many of these ones were people coming off of Sundance Buzz because it was like Karen Kusama for a girl fight was shouted out. I can't remember what other ones. Oh my God. Also, the double page spread on the girls of Popular.

Like that was a show that I came to later after that show had been canceled. But like the Leslie Grossman and St. Tammy Lynn Michaels of it all. Absolutely incredible. I'm looking, I wrote down a bunch of the names of folks. First of all, Tom Green gets It Cancer Boy, which like... Right. Okay.

I guess like... You know, he made a schick out of getting testicular cancer, but also calling him it Cancer Boy is a little... Yes. It's a little much. I was going to say the double page spread for vitamin C. Okay. The music stuff in this issue.

is a real moment in time. Vitamin C gets a double spread. Rough riders. Nelly Furtado gets a little small blurb where she talks about how she likes dirt or something and wants to work with Eminem. I guarantee you Eminem has been on, or like one of them has like been on a track for one another. Actually got with Timberland or whatever, I guarantee you. Macy Gray talking about how she likes to eat starch at 4 a.m.

And then it makes her depressed and inspired to write depressing songs. I love my secret. Back to the theater stuff, blurbs on Susan Stroman and Moises Kaufman, like those fairly astute. Heather Headley, that was great. Claudia Shear, I don't remember. I think I was sort of browsing by that point. Was she somebody who was like kind of a big deal or no?

Because like that was a name that I don't remember. And she had like a pretty big photo. Yeah, I don't, I think she had just. had these two hot shows, you know, and then kind of didn't. She wrote the book for the Tuck Everlasting Musical years later that didn't really do much. Oh, boy. Sure. It was funny seeing Kelsey Grammer in there for Macbeth because that... Oh my God, yes. I'm fairly certain that tried out in Boston, where I grew up. And I remember, even then I didn't watch Frazier. I knew that he was famous because I'd seen him on Cheers, I guess, or whatever. But like, he was like,

step was savaged like people hated it oh yeah that wasn't part of the it list that was like their theater review that week oh that was that oh that was not part of the it list oh i see that was not part of the at list well it's in that issue but i mean it's just fascinating because like i think i heard about people hating it like on the top 40 radio station like one of the djays was talking about it and it's like what on earth like oh wow different time they also had an entry on eliza dishku who was like i was obsessed with her at this point like this was right after after her season on Buffy, she had just been in, she was in Bring It On that year. That was like my peak, like, absolutely, like, who did not tell me anything about Eliza Dushku?

I loved her so much. I also thought it was interesting that they had the blurb on Travis, which was like this moment where, like, music was about to sort of turn the corner away from that kind of late 90s limp biscuit sort of, you know, era. Boy rock bands. Right, and like the rock bands would sort of move into this, you know, Travis and Postal Service and more sort of... But we also didn't realize that Coldplay was about to eat Travis' lunch, though. Because especially that first Coldplay album, it was like Travis maximalism.

See, I love when you can talk about that kind of shit, because, like, I have no vocabulary for stuff like that. So that kind of shit fascinates me. I was also surprised that like Zadie Smith was as far back as that You know what I mean? That that was and again I am a dummy when it comes to

She's so young she was like 24 in this magazine Yeah They also kind of look down their nose at her a little bit Like she's it literary debutante Oh yeah well there's a lot of like Age and Gender stuff with a lot of these things I did look up that mini series Because of course like again I'm a dummy I don't know

I literally first heard of Zadie Smith probably seven years ago. But maybe longer than that. Maybe like 10 years ago, but still. That mini-series on her book that they mentioned on White Teeth, I looked it up. And like, it was an interesting cast, James McAvoy's in that. Oh, wait, no, I can't remember who else. But I don't know.

Interesting. Yeah. So, y'all, if eBay has stray copies of this one, I think I got the last. copy that this particular seller was selling, but the 2000-EW It List is a time machine. Yeah. And you only paid $6,000 for it. I know. I know.

Well, you know, the person who sold it to me deserves to be wealthy. So there we go. Well, you can now frame the photo of Hayden Kirstensen's midsection as he suggestively raises his shirt. It's true. Which, like, that is the, that is like hot guy EW photo spread. They're always reaching into their shirt to suggestively scratch their chest and show off a hint of happy trail. On the power ranking of fake innocuous gestures that, that intentionally display, like, that show skin, it's the, I'm going to make a movement that will raise my t-shirt thing, that, that, will either, you know, reveal, like you said, like a happy trail or a, like a tattoo, you know what I mean?

That, like, there's a hint of tattoo somewhere, has sort of evolved into the gay selfie pose where I'm, like, scratching the back of my head. So my armpit is, is visible that has been adopted by your, you're sort of Paul Meskels and Chris Evanses and stuff like that through the years. It's arm behind the head is, it's the number one. But then the sort of like, oh, oops, I'm lifting my shirt by accident while turning and laughing. Like, that's, that's like the kind of peak of that, of that form. That feels like a Ross Lynch move or something like that. Sure. I'm sure he's made that move.

But I always wonder, like, are the photographers telling, they probably are. Right. Right. Well, well, it's to me, I always think of like the evolution of reality TV where years and go, and when the, John was in more of it in its infancy. You probably had to do a lot more coaching for those people. And now it's like, you look at like Real Housewives now. And like Kyle Richards is fully like producing her own divorce storyline.

And like you can't tell me that like they have to give her much prodding or much coaching at this point to just sort of like she knows her angles. She knows what she's got to, you know, say and who she's got to maneuver. Like she's essentially just like creating like heroes and villains of her own story at this point. it is repulsive but also like kind of instructive as to what's going on and I feel like that's probably the thing with as you get people who are more and more sort of like media trained and media savvy which I feel like the TikTok generation just feels like that's their defining quality is being like incredibly unsettlingly media ready and I bet you that that kind of thing just sort of becomes oh I've seen other.

people make this, you know, do this in a photo. I'm going to do this in a photo. That's why why did every, you know, why has every gay guy taking a selfie known how to like find their light or like smile with their eyes? It's like, oh, you watched all of America's next top model. You know what I mean? Like that's just sort of like it's been ingrained. Gay guys on Instagram, always putting tarantulas on their faces. Always. If I see one more goddamn tarantula on some guy's face, like Jesus Christ. If I see one more person, in a coffin for life. Stop walking around on wet runways, guys.

It's no longer, it's no longer original. We're sick of your Skechers SpawnCon. All right. Before we get finally at long last, maybe an hour into this episode, we're going to get in a shattering glass. But Chris, do perhaps quickly talk about why people should join our Patreon if they haven't.

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this coming I think it'll already be up by the time this episode is up but yes something like that yeah sign up for this had Oscar Buzz turbulent brilliance it's patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz all right I'm going to deliver the 60 second plot description

this week Richard have a seat I find it too stressful it's fun so I've that was the one diva thing in my writer in my contract for this appearing on this. That's

you know what? Honestly All those. It's honestly less demanding than all of the red gummy bears that she was going to say. Yeah. Thank you for sending those over. I do appreciate it. Yeah. The Fiji water was really easy. Right. Good. So Chris, why don't you tee me up with the boilerplate

and then you can time me on 60 seconds? Listeners, we're here talking about shattered glass written and directed by Billy Ray. We'll get into it based on Buzz Bissinger's article shattered glass published in Vanity Fair in 1998.

Motion picture stars, the aforementioned Hayden Christensen, Peter Sarsgaard, with Steve Zon, no, and. There wasn't Ann, the Ann comes so much sooner. It's Anne-Hancazaria, and then they do a bunch of credit blocks, and then it's with Steve Zon. It's a really weird

one. Okay, I miss that, but that is deeply strange. It is. It is. Yes. Rosario Dawson, Chloe 78, Melanie Linsky, and Hank Azaria. I guess I should have said and Hank Azaria much sooner. The movie played

both Tell Your Ride in Toronto in 2003 and then opened in its limited release on Halloween 2003. Appropriately opening on Halloween because there is a jump scare in this where you see Jonathan Tate and a co-by line with Stephen Glass

that literally made me so startled. Joseph, are you ready to give a 60-second plot? description on chattered class? I mean, sure, let's do it. All right, then your 60-second plot description starts now. Okay, so what happened to my friend Stephen Glass, who I know personally was really unfair? He was a 24-year-old associate editor at the New Republic, and he pitched and wrote the coolest stories, like the one where he attended CPAC with a bunch of young Republicans who got fucked up and assaulted a stripper, or the one where the child hacker

got the tech company he infiltrated to pay him a king's ransom. Stephen's stories were incredible, and then this dorkist from Forbes Digital, which didn't even have a print magazine started, or he wasn't even in the print magazine of forums, he started digging around in the hacker article and found out that a bunch of names and phone numbers didn't check out. Maybe there was no record of the tech company juked by Kronix ever existing,

even though I know for sure it does because I was there with Stephen at the hacker convention. So Stephen's editor, Chuck Lane, was being a real cock about it, probably because Chuck replaced the TNR editor. Everybody loved Michael Kelly, who I also knew because I was also a writer at the New Republic. So Chuck is just refusing to support Stephen like a good editor should as instead digging around into Stephen's notes

and expressing doubt about the facts and descriptions being so mean to Stephen, who was almost going to kill himself, at least that's what Stephen told me when he called me on the phone several times. I can give you his number. I have it written down on a piece of paper here somewhere. Can I get back? I can get back to you when I find it. It's fine. Anyway, Chuck fired Stephen all because he fabricated 27 articles, either entirely or partially. And the following Monday at work, we all gave Chuck a standing ovation and cheered and lifted him up on her shoulders and chanted his name because we realized over the weekend that you did the right thing. And it was incredible to be there in the room like I was. Too bad

Stephen couldn't be here. I'll call. Too bad Stephen couldn't be there. I'll have him call you. you and tell you all about it. His voice might sound weird. I know he's had a cold lately, but he can't. He can back up everything I have told you, okay? All right. Is that fine? Are you mad at me?

30 seconds over. But well worth it. The first, probably not last time that you do a 60 second plot description as Chloe 70. Okay. The Chloe 7e and Melanie Linsky of it all. And also the, the twink who gets killed in the bathroom in, in Final Destination

who plays the one who really idolizes Stephen and has Stephen sort of like edit his piece and whatever. The whole atmosphere of this magazine, this like, again, one of the most influential,

powerful magazines in American political culture is this like barely postgraduate children's play room where, like, they're all play-acting as journalists. Like, that's sort of the, that's the depiction that I get in this movie, and I find it endlessly fascinating. Yeah.

I mean, I, when I, I, like, worked at a media company in my, you know, early mid-20s, and, like, and most of us were pretty young. Right. And, but we were, you know, we were, we were the snarky bloggers. I was going to say, that was sort of your thing. Yeah. We, but, like, but I. I think I was sort of dimly aware that there were people my age or a little older who were kind of, you know, hanging out together outside of work, going, getting drunk, all that stuff. But we're also at something that was legitimate. Like, I had a friend of a friend who worked at New York Magazine or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. I find the depiction in the movie accurate in a lot of ways to, you know, some, you know, some vaguely my experience. And also sort of like horrifying because it's like it was, it was, it's.

It's a fun place to be in that way, but it's also a really risky and sort of fraught at the same time. And I think the movie captures that pretty well. Well, and the thing about, if I may mention Gawker by name, is that sort of Gawker's thing was, like the New Republic, I imagine, was one of these places that this whole idea of like the sort of self-important access dependent. cozying up to certain politicians for reasons. And, you know, one of the sort of things that Gawker was looking to puncture and, you know, sort of take some of the stuffing out of in a way. Oh, fully, fully. I mean, the New Republic was not like, no, actually, it wasn't as powerful at that point. No, they weren't, but also they were targeted because of all the Andrew Sullivan years and the sort of race and stuff that they did. And right. Yeah. And,

You know, that magazine had a stain on it for much, I think, more pervasive reasons than the Stephen Glass affair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's all depicted incredibly well in the movie in that, like, you don't, I don't think you need to have worked within a newsroom or sort of for a magazine like this to be able to understand the way that clicks and sort of personal loyalties and personal. sort of, you know, you like people better than others when you work at a workplace, and you are more apt to side with them in a disagreement, and you are more apt to give them leeway and stuff like that. And so I think that's probably a thing that a lot of people watching this can relate to from one end of it or another, and to watch this thing sort of play out at this place that purports to have and should have sort of a higher standard

of operating when it comes to, you know, writing things that are they are purporting as the truth and watching these very sort of juvenile. Again, I go back to the scenes that, like, Chloe Seveny editing Melanie Linsky's article and talking about like, well, you should just stay within what you're good at and, you know, you're not good. And Melanie Linsky's like, you know, people don't want policy. stuff. They want, you know, flash and fun and humor and whatever. And Chloe 70 is like, you don't write funny. And it's just all, it all does seem like they are playing the part of

an editor or a journalist colleague in a way that I find, like, I think the air quotes around a lot of, I think there's a lot of Chloe 70 performance, many Chloe 70 performances that sort of have air quotes around it. And I think that makes her kind of perfect casting for something like. this. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think what the movie does in, in its psychology is so interesting in that, like, if you don't have imposter syndrome in this particular industry, then you're a sociopath. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, like, Stephen kind of plays at the imposter syndrome thing, but is kind of a sociopath, actually. And I think that the sort of heartbreak of that, either way, it's like, you know, of realizing your colleague is miserable because they don't think they belong there or they're not miserable because they're crazy, you know, like. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and even this like all the parts in the pitch meetings where he'll like, you know, put on this amazing performance for a pitch and get the whole room sort of wrapped up in it. And then he'll end it with this like, oh, but it's probably. Oh, I don't know. I'll probably kill it. I don't think I'm going to write about it. And I like, I like, I like the fact that you see some of the reactions where it's like, you can tell that like he does this all the time and some of the people are like kind of over it. Like Chuck is certainly, you know, over it. And. And this sort of false modesty and false, like, whatever, it also makes me think about, like, I kind of, after this movie, after this viewing especially, I kind of wanted to go and seek out and read all of these pieces, because I wonder, like, certainly you can see why somebody would want to read, you know, something like the CPAC piece about, you know, this sort of, like, bad behavior going on at the, at the, uh, this conservative conference or whatever, or I guess the hacker thing, the hacker thing is, you know, I imagine that in 1998, the idea of hackers was like so exotic and whatever. Yeah, totally.

But it's interesting to think about like the ways that these kinds of, these kinds of pieces would be disseminated these days. Whereas like the piece, I don't know if they talk about it as much in the movie, but it's sort of referenced visually where he goes to that kind of political chotchke. bizarre where it's all the like the buttons and the bumper stickers and all the weird slogan stuff and whatever it's like that's a daily show piece you know now that's a Samantha B piece or what or was even like you know 10 years ago or whatever and you know the CPAC stuff would be if not straight up on Twitter would be you know of the moment reporting like you wouldn't get this like magazine story I mean we're later and that's where the ego comes in here where it's like this was a time and sort of the end of the time when magazines like this who yes did not have huge readership I mean they were probably having their lunch eaten by People magazine or whatever but like right they were influential and influential in a way that they basically kind of selected and then shaped the narratives that would sort of define the present tense you know like like this is what culture is and you know

there's an ego to that where you're like, I have to kind of, you know, I have to bring this knowledge to the masses. Um, and then, you know, just a few years later, oh, everyone's everywhere. Social media. Like now everyone is aware of everything if they want to be. And, um, and this is kind of one of those last moments, um, when you could have that kind of swagger of like, let me tell you what's going on behind these closed doors that you have, you know, that you'll never, you know, be on the other side of. And now it kind of feels like we're everywhere all the time. I almost never lean in this way, but in the, I wouldn't trade Shattered Glass the movie as it was, but like I wouldn't not be fascinated in a miniseries version of something like this that would sort of push the viewer, the scope of it outwards a little, just because you do think about that when Richard, you mentioned about the influence of it and the fact that like in 1998 that there was this conflict between Marty Peretz and Michael Kelly about Al Gore. and the sort of the shaping, the way the media narrative shaped Al Gore.

Remember during that, I don't know how much you remember the 2000 campaign before it became the mess after the election were like the shaping of Al Gore, the candidate and like the ways where he tried to like become more fun or personable because the knock against Al Gore was that he was boring. Yeah. Was this like you watched them turn this person into this sort of multiple personality. you never knew what that was that was the one where the DNC were like he kissed his wife so aggressively and it was chalked up to this sort of like media training of like no people need to think that you are like a flesh and blood person with emotions so like really plant one on your wife um and you can see we're like if the big conflict between the you know the the the owner and the and the editor or whatever the publisher and the editor was about gore like that's went a long way towards shaping that campaign all the stuff with like the lead up to the Iraq war the fact that the new republic was so heavily in favor of the war that's shaping world events that's shaping like the national conversation and it is interesting so much of uh what allowed glass to get away with all of this is this kind of cult

of personality within the microcosm of right a single editorial staff. And I don't think like a more global perspective helps shattered glass, helps Billy Ray's shattered glass. But I would kind of kill for a version of this story that also like pulls in a more national or global perspective for what the New Republic was doing at the time. Well, because the dynamics are so interesting in the story like the center central story of this is so fascinating that like you really could branch off in all of those directions. However, I would still argue that. Part of what makes this movie so good is its leanness, you know? Like, there's, there's room in a bunch of different directions where, you know, it could go deeper and go longer.

But because this is like a 90-minute movie, it's... Oh, right. I just think it's, you know, it makes it kind of a banger. Yes, I like that. I like the, the leanness of it, for sure. Yeah. but it doesn't feel like it's necessarily you know underdeveloping anything

I think we still you know it gives Hayden Christensen a lot of room to play with in terms of psychology of this character but then we still get so much information even I think for an audience that has no I wouldn't say media literacy

but like knowledge of how these institutions work right Richard, do you think such a limited series that I'm proposing would just end up being the newsroom? Well, it would certainly run that risk. I mean, I think that also there would be a tendency now to make some sort of, like, and this is a metaphor for fake news. You know, whatever. Like, I just wouldn't want that sort of, I wouldn't want them to sort of argue or stress its relevance, you know?

Right. Because it just is, in this film, it's such a contained interesting story that obviously has. you know, broader, more global, you know, implications or whatever for the magazine, for culture. But, like, I like that this movie is not very fuss about looking kind of up from, from its little, you know, view on this world. Like, I think that, um, that I think, because it's a, it's a character study. You know, that's ultimately sort of what the movie is. I mean, it's a workplace drama and a character study and I think works really well. It is kind of wild, though, to think about if this movie, you know, with some other young up and coming out, like,

if it was Timmy shallomay, right? Yeah. Like, he would get an Oscar nomination. Like, it's because I, but I think 20 years ago, we were sort of spoiled for choice. And a movie like this that is now would be on top 10 list, you know, it would be like a big movie. Back then, it could just fly under the radar, get a scattered critics, things, and Spirit Award stuff. And that's it. And that to me is one of the biggest time capsule aspects of the movie.

Yeah. Because there were so many more movies like this at the time, you know, these small. independent things, you know, that are now, which is, it's just kind of a straightforward movie. I think the comparison there that I'm immediately drawn to is like, it's not Timothy Chalamee playing this character. It's somebody who is coming off of a really, really maligned performance that is like this. That's the big thing. I don't even know if I have an immediate comparison to it because it's such, he's thrust into such a

world stage. Yeah. it goes very badly and then immediately he basically turns in this performance and well life as a house has already happened too right yes life of the house was a one yeah yeah yeah so that goes decently well he gets like a sag nomination but then star wars happens right after that and it like takes all of the completely eclipsing any any goodwill that had already been placed there and it's like what's his name if what's his name from friday Night Lights shit, what was his name? Taylor Kish. Taylor Kitch. After his like three terror like battleship and John Carter and all of that, you know,

basically like, you know, destroys his, his ambitions as a leading man. And then all of a sudden it's just like then I don't think, I don't think he's right for that part. But you know what I mean? That kind of level of sort of career devastation to come back. And it's not just that Hayden Christensen had this maligned thing in a big movie. it was that it was the big Star Wars movie that was supposed to be correcting the record from

the... Phantom Menace. Thank you. Which I know now has gotten a kind of revisit and younger people like it because it was the movie they grew up with or whatever. I mean, all the trilogy, the prequel films have been reassessed, but at the time, they were reviled and like by kind of the mass culture.

And like, so that Hayden Christensen not only turned in what a performance people didn't like in the second Star Wars movie, but that it was not the cure-all to the disastrous first one. He was just like, there was no way for him to get come out clean, you know? And so great, okay, cool. He does a really well-regarded indie, you know, in between those two calamities or whatever.

But then kept limping along. I mean, he got the lead of a Doug Lyman action movie in 2008. I know. Oh, Jumper. And then it was it. That was it. back to Star Wars, you know, 20 years later. Yeah.

But it's just like, there's no analog to him because there's, that's, he's the only one who did that, you know? Put that CEO from Juke to Mycronics in Palo Alto on hold for a second. We need to talk very seriously about the Vulture Movie Fantasy League. Or not that seriously, lightheartedly. Let's have a, a frank and open and enthusiastic discussion about the Valtrow Fantasy League. enthusiastic being the key word. Joe, I want to celebrate you in this moment. As a Wonka Poptomist, congratulations. Wanka had a great opening weekend.

I still have to see it. I'm like, the last few weeks, I've been so totally, I have not only like TV shit I have to watch for the end of the year, but I also am already behind on our Scorsese project. Somehow, I ended up behind. You and Katie were both very good students and got very much ahead. I am still, as of this recording, I've only just finished the 80s, so I still have all of the 90s, all of the Otts, and all of the 20s 10th year and Goodfellas on deck. It's mostly rewatches for me, but I've been having a really fruitful time watching all of these movies in order. I think it's been really instructive in terms of like following his evolution, and it's just like a really fun project, and I really don't want to have to stray to like,

just, like, watch the ones I haven't watched and then, like, catch up on the, you know, to prioritize them outside of chronological order. We continue to hype our upcoming appearance on screen drafts, talking about Sasey. It's going to be fun. I'm also trying to watch as many, you know, previously released year-end movies. So, like, stuff that I have on, you know, streaming platforms to watch and whatever. Anyway, the upshot is... My weekly obligation to remind you, you still have to watch a thousand and one.

I will, it's absolutely near the top of my list. I will absolutely watch a thousand and one. But like getting out, getting out to the theater has been a challenge for me, which is too bad because it's like, I want to see Wonka. I want to see, um, even stuff like, I want to see Godzilla minus one. I want to see, uh, Napoleon. I want to see God, even like, I guess I don't want to see the Hunger Games movie. But like, I just feel like there was a, there were a few weeks back there where it's like,

I could have gotten out to the theater and, like, been a little bit more of a completest about the November movies. And as we head into December, I'm just falling behind, falling behind, falling behind. But anyway, points are rolling in. Not falling behind is Wonka. I was very glad that my optimism about that movie's box office chances and my, I will say, I was less certain that the critics would be on board with Wanka, but I was hearing whispers for a while that Wanka might be good. And it seems like the majority of critics agree with that notion. Again, I haven't seen it.

So, like, the gag of all gags would be if I end up not liking Wanka. Because it would be really funny. Not funny in the way that, like, I want to like a movie. So, like, I'm not, certainly, you know, would not love that if that was the occasion. But, like, you got to catch it this week before you're about to be bombarded. Well, and it's, yes. I agree, but like, this week, as we record this, is the week leading up to Christmas. And let me just tell you, my dance card is not lacking for shit I have to do in terms of getting ready for Christmas.

Okay, fancy. Okay, popular. Not even that. It's just like wrap the rest of my Christmas presents and buy the last couple stragglers of my Christmas present and like learn how to bake the Starbucks cranberry bars for their, for, you know, all this sort of stuff. And it's like, there's just, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on in the movie Fantasy League because we also have Golden Globes points just came in. Critics Choice points came in. Joe, what do you think point-wise from those two awards really, if you drafted X movie, you came ahead this week? So the points deluge that we've gotten from the Golden Globes and from,

from the critic's choice, I think reflect what in general has been the sort of established hierarchy at the top of award season now, which is there are four movies that really like came out of those two with points, you know, spilling out of their pockets. They've got so many. And that's, um, in generally this order, um, Barbie, Killers of the Flower Moon, Oppenheimer, and then poor things. So, like, those four movies are at the top. They are getting the most nominations. They're getting the most points. If you have found a way to get even two of those movies on your roster, you're looking good. If you've found a way to get three of those movies on your roster, you're looking real good. I'm not sure there is a way that you could have gotten four

of those movies on your roster and still made an eight-person, eight-film roster. I don't think the math works out for that. But I think in general, the people who have say, Barbie and Killers of the Flower Moon and Poor Things, you're looking good. If you have Oppenheimer and Killers of the Flower Moon and Poor Things, I think that also works out math-wise. You're looking good. And then you have this second tier of movies that are amassing points in a way that are really rewarding their buyers. So that's Maestro and May December and the Holdovers. and stuff like that.

And then you get into the stuff that made a bunch of money, box office-wise, that are still looking strong, which is Ares Tor and Hunker Games and Five Nights at Freddy's. And then The Killers of the Flower Moon, as well as it's doing an award season,

it also has like a nice chunk of box office points behind it. So Killers of the Flower Moon is turning out to be a really, really, you know, a really good buy. And so... I would also add to, this and it was one that I was worried

about because I drafted it and I was like I don't know if I'm going to get these points but on top of Los Angeles film critics, zone of interest I think had a decently good week. It did. It definitely did. That's up there. Anatomy of a fall I think also is

up there. I sort of I think next the newsletter I'm going to try and sort of collate the top total scoring movies but I think in general you're looking at all of those movies

that I mentioned oh god past lives by the way is a really very well a lot of points a lot of points for past lives American fiction is moving up that list of Anatomy of the Fall is moving up that list somehow Maestro despite having kind of a soft

start to the season and didn't really do very well during the critics awards Maestro is sort of a establishing itself as one of the, you know, 10 or 12 movies that is in this conversation is up for a bunch of these awards. So, good for that. But as weird as it sounds, has not really had its launch yet because it arrives on Netflix this week. So I feel like if this coming week is quiet for Maestro in terms of public discussion, et cetera, it might not be looking great for Maestro.

We will see. And yet... It's still very quiet around my stroke. I mean, the thing about Netflix is, like, May December had a noisy launch. Yeah. But, like, Nyad did not. Rustin did not. The killer did not.

Even though I think people, movie people, you know what I mean? Like, people in our circle were really interested in the killer. I think that's a very good movie. I'm surprised that leave the world... Maybe leave the world behind as a slow burn. And, like, it's... They're not pushing it for a war. They're just kind of letting it be...

But in terms of even just, like, chatter, in terms of, like, people talking about it, I haven't really noticed that many... There's a scene in that movie where... I don't want to spoil it. There's a scene in that movie with Julia Roberts and Mahershal Ali that I would have expected to have been memed by now.

Oh. And not to be, like, memes are the be-all and end-all of, like, what's popular. But, like, or at least, like, nobody... I've seen nobody talk about it. And it's just, like, as soon as I saw that, I'm like, I'm going to watch this scene 20 more times because it's so fun. But, like, even the Netflix main account was meming May December, and are they not

meaming, leave the world behind? And I think Leave the World Behind has a potential because, like, it's real watchable. Like, my mom and my sister were watching it in between breaks for making cookies yesterday. So, like, it's a, like, it's a crowd pleaser. And, um, but anyway, uh, what I'm saying is, like, in terms of, like, the Netflix conversation matrix it is sort of a mystery what what that'll spit out for maestro whether maestro has a hook or two in it that will get people talking about it do you know what i mean yeah anyway all right

back to box office wonka uh almost 40 million on its opening weekend which is really good that's in the general area of what hunger games ballad of songbirds and snakes opened to and then And that one, as of its fifth week, is almost at 150 million. So you're going to expect to get those number one box office points for the weekend for Wonka. You'll clear 50 million by next week. You'll clear 100 million by the end of the year, I would imagine. And it's going to be a good payoff if you drafted Wonka. And awards-wise, like Timmy got a Golden Globe nomination.

you know what I mean? Like I could see this getting a costume nomination. Like success breeds, success can breed awards attention in that just like people want to get on board in some way. And so could very likely be, especially with the shortlist coming this week, could be shortlisted among the song contenders. Right. It is a musical much as the advertisements want to deny that fact.

Song contenders score maybe costumes, production design, that kind of thing. so we'll see yeah that could be a shortlist Oscar shortlists come out on the 21st which will be an interesting it'll be I'm interested to see what movies show up and get those shortlist points but don't end up getting nominated like I think if we had shortlist points last year nope would have done a little bit better because I think you've been on a personal mission to make my brain explode by thinking that little mermaid is coming Little Mermaid's going to get a nomination, is what I'm going to say. Whether it's for a song, if they're going to nominate that wild-ass, the scuttlebutt song,

which do not put it past the song nominators. Like, they have done weird or shit. It's one of those things where I keep reminding people, just because you thought an element of the movie was really bad does not mean that it won't. get Oscar nominated for that really bad element. We've had the conversation about visual effects being kind of slim this year. And The Little Mermaid, for as much as the buzz was bad, made money. And that's worth remembering, too.

Didn't make that much money, but it made $100 million. Relative to other things in the Disney portfolio this year, the Little Mermaid is one of their highlights. So, yes. elsewhere on the box office for this past weekend poor things I want to mention which expanded to 82 theaters and ended up with on the weekend

1.2 million for a total now of 2.2 million cumulative and on only 82 theaters to be 9th in the top 10 and to be doing that strong I think is a great sign for poor things could be looking at one of those sort of like sleeper indie successes which is I love that could be the knives out thing of this is the movie that all of the you know

20 to 35 year olds go see to get away from their family yep yep yep totally um wish continues to limp although that's over 50 million now Napoleon is also over 50 million now so those movies get bonuses I don't know if the marvels are going to make it to 100 million. They're going to have to keep that thing in theaters for a long time if they want to get that. My theory of that very thing did not come to fruition. Yeah. And yeah, it's

didn't know that it would happen this soon, but here we are with a Marvel movie that failed to make 100 million. I do think they're going to leg out 100 million for trolls band together, which is currently at 88. It still was in the box office top five this week. It's been pretty much consistently outperforming

wish, which I watched wish this week. Ooh, boy. Oof. Oof. Big oof. Big old oof. All right.

American fiction opened in limited, as did the zone of interest, but they were both in fewer than ten theaters. So the story on those ones is not written yet. But, you know, it's so you do like, oh, good per screen average. But like, per screen average for a movie that's only on seven screens or four screens that, like, you used to mean more pre-COVID. And now you'd. You just don't know if that's, if that momentum's going to hold.

Yep, yep. Yeah, so let's take a look at the standings for the Vulture Fantasy League. The leaderboard has gone through a lot of upheaval in the last week because of just the onslaught of different points from the globes and the, and the critics' choice. And so we have a number one film, as I'm looking at it, by the time you listen to this, the box office points will be added to this. And so I don't know if that'll change anything, but possibly. Team Barbie Ting's is tied for first place with Rob's Flicks. So we have a tie in first place, which I find amazing.

These two rosters are identical. So these two teams will be in lockstep with each other throughout award season. So that'll be interesting. I want to point out. Yes. Yes. Not a podcast team. I want to talk about our garries.

Let's talk about our gary's league. Y'all are doing so well in this game. Teresa May December is in sixth place total. But also John Wick for Oscar is in 10th place. We have two Garies in the top 10. Fuck, yeah. Like, genuinely, oh, I'm proud of you, Gary's. Very good.

Yeah, two top ten teams, two of them. Two of them. We are the league with two top ten teams. We are better than all the other leagues. Sorry to say it. but we are. Any names you want to shout out in terms of fun team names from the upper echelons of the Gary's League? One that I have never seen before. Listen, we are not a podcast that condones violence, but team name, kill the AMPTP, not the Flower Moon. We salute you. I appreciate team Velvet Gold Mind.

Her mind is killing it. Past lives. all of us strange Barbies has the feel of a lot of trivia team names. There's always one trivia team that if you're in a bar league that goes week after week after week, there's always one team that keeps adding on a new element to their team name every week. It becomes, you know, all of us strangers on a train to Busan. I don't know where you go from there. But you know what I mean? Just like every week, it gets a new little element. That's sort of what that team name reminds me of. Team the eldest boy.

Happy to see that Kendall didn't jump into the river and decided to play the movie fantasy game instead. I am not doing as well as any of these teams, but I do have to point out, as you started to mention, the podcast league. I am number four among them. I am just saying. Chris, where are you, what movie's success is going to push you to the top of the podcast

league? What is going to make this happen for you? When the shortlist points come in, that's where I'm hoping I can get some Priscilla points. I did pick Priscilla. That seems to be one of the ones that's not going to pay off for me. It feels like you've got a lot of upside. You've got Barbie upside. You've got poor things upside. You've got American fiction upside. Boy in the Heron, Zone of Interest. A lot of stuff. A lot of stuff. Katie Rich, by the way, is just behind you in the standings by a mere 21 points.

So Katie... I'm looking back at her like Silkwood and a rear view. She's coming to get me. Katie's going to get those poor things box office points. So that's a few. So that knocks you down a little bit. And... Or wait, do you also have poor things?

I have poor things. Yes, you do. Okay. So she makes up nothing on you. she's waiting for those Oppenheimer points to kind of blow you out of the water is what's happening there Those 80 for Brady's movies for grownups points

Make it happen y'all And then just behind Okay look at this like Friends of the podcast section Whereas you are ahead of Katie Who's ahead of Griffin Newman Who's ahead of Clay Keller This is

It's all happening It's all happening here Meanwhile Right behind Clay Keller is the person I think is going to win the podcast draft, which is Rebecca Ford from Little Gold Men. Very true. I am no longer at the bottom of the podcasters league standings. I am only in the bottom seven. One, two, three, four. Yes. I'm in the bottom seven. And you know what?

Poised for a comeback is my team, which is called the Owls of Gohuler. We'll see. I'm having a very Owls of Gohul, Autumn, as you all know if you are a listener of the podcast. All right, Chris, that's our update. Oscar shortlists coming on the 21st, and then things go silent until January, and we all need a break, I think. So, January we'll be collecting, obviously, box office points throughout the holidays. But no more awards, anything after the shortlists until January. But the Golden Globes will be upon us before we know it. So there's all of that.

Very exciting. Any last words before we jump back into the shattered. glass of it all. Let's just let's get back to the episode. All right. It's such a good performance, though, in Shattered Glass, because like you mentioned that it's a character study, but it's a character study from the outside in. You don't really, because there is, I don't know if there is anything inside. You know what I mean? Like, it's, you know, it's, it's really good writing for the movie, too, because the way that it's, the way that it starts, we think we've seen this structure before. It's him talking to the classroom. It allows it to be this kind of voiceover narration thing that

we think we know what we're seeing. And then as we get to learn this character and by the end, you realize, oh, this whole classroom thing is a representation of how this character sees himself. It's not really happening. And we think we're on his side from the beginning of the movie. And then progressively, we learn, oh, we really maybe haven't seen this character's internal thoughts at all. you know, by the end we realized we're kept at an arm's distance, uh, throughout the whole time. And I think Christensen really threads that line incredibly well. Yeah. He, he lets, he charms you and then, um, lets you be creeped out by him, you know, like, and I think that's, there's not a lot of ego in there, even though there's a lot sort of

swirling around his character in the movie about like, like, you know, it's implied he's very pretty and, you know, people are sort of charmed by him in that way. There's kind of a homoerotic thing in a couple scenes. I was going to bring it up. The scene where he talks about how the guy's tongue ended up in his mouth somehow. It's like, yeah, funny how that happens. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I think that's an interesting dynamic in the movie. I mean, I think the other thing that I related to is that when I was in my early 20s,

I also had fantasies that Caroline Goodall was giving me compliments. Real. Those scenes are so interesting, too, with the class. Like, it's one of those, like, it's a backdoor, you know, frame narration, obviously. And, like, God, like, the one girl who's, like, writing these, like, very pretty cursive notes. And I paused it to see if they were, like, you know, Mrs. Stephen Glass or whatever. And it's not that, but it's still like, it's writing all these sort of like his, like, serious credits or whatever. But with this, like, curly, almost curlicue penmanship of this, you know, that you would imagine writing and she writes a little star or whatever.

And it's like, you can tell she's sort of infatuated with him. But with the, when Caroline Goodall is. sort of reading his freelance credits, which also took me a second to adjust myself to the idea because I've worked at so many places that wouldn't let me freelance. And it's so funny to imagine that he's like at the New Republic while like openly freelancing for like all of the New Republic. And openly talking about it with co-workers. Yes. Yes. And like direct competitors like the New Yorker and whatever. But his credits being and she sort of like she puts a little bit of extra emphasis on like for George

magazine for Rolling Stone and whatever and George remember George magazine but I think that's part of it. This is that's the thing that makes it such a time capsule is the George magazine of it all. But it's but that's what I mean is that late 90s where it was like George or like

Tina Brown's talk or whatever and and even the way Rolling Stone would cover politics. It was this idea that like well you couldn't just cover politics you had to sort of sensational it in this way. Obviously, like, sensationalized journalism didn't get invented in the 90s, obviously. But there was a particular flavor of Clinton era flashy, like, chic journalism. I think that's the thing. It wasn't just like flashy, but there was a there was a sheikness to like George and talk and and even something. And I think that it's something that like the New Republic kind of like arc towards in a way that was probably not great. And that's probably what enables something. like Stephen Glass, who was delivering those kind of chic, you know, pieces that, you know, people would talk about and were, you know, so, you know, so amazing and so unlike what everybody else was able to pitch.

Yeah. And these people became really famous, you know, in their, in their little sphere anyway, you know, on the sort of, you know, a cella corridor between Boston and Washington, D.C. Like, but that's a pretty powerful corridor, you know. And there are still. people in journalism who have that sort of sway. But there aren't very many. And there's certainly there, I don't know any young people, you know, 40 and below who are aspiring to anything remotely like what was happening in the 90s because it's just not possible, you know. Right. Right. Well, and that's what gives you a little bit of nostalgia for it, too, is like not just the product, but the economy of it. The fact that multiple magazines like that were able to, you know, coexist in sort of, at least for a very brief moment, thrive. And it was, you know, I guess it was trendy.

You know what I mean? Like, that was trendy at the time. As much as for as much realism and cold waters, I can splash on myself, I will never not be nostalgic for the 90s. It's just like, I'm, you know, whatever. I was a teenager. Well, it's when everything we liked was doing pretty well, you know? Yeah.

And now everything we like is failing. Well, that's what I mean. It's like if I'm growing up, if I was a teenager now, would I even like consider going into any kind of creative field or would I just like be like drawn to something else? Because right now everything that I loved, not everything, but like so many of the things that I loved about these creative fields are, seems so much more blunted and stunted now. I don't know. I feel like theater would have still led me to New York. But I think I would have been spending so much time with screens rather than reading EW or other magazines. I don't know.

Maybe I'd be in California. I don't, I don't. But like, look, there are still young people applying to work at VF and other magazines. Like, they're still out there. I just, it's just not like we don't have. Yeah. The path is a lot more circuitous than it used to be, I think. Yeah.

I want to go, I want to sort of divert into Billy Ray for a second because a really interesting career as a right. This is his directorial debut in this, but he had written screenplays for Color of Night, the sort of notorious Bruce Willis movie, Color of Night. He did write the screenplay to my beloved disaster movie, Volcano. I don't know if he contributed the line, The Coast is Toast for the people who were doing the marketing for the movie, but regardless, he was also the art director for the really fabulous promo shoot of photos with all of the

Anne Hage, Tommy Lee Jones poses. I hope so. Wrote the script for Hearts War, which is another co-wrote with Terry George, actually, another Bruce Willis movie, Bruce Willis and Colin Farrell.

Then Shattered Glass happens. Then Breach, which is his next directorial effort, like, gets good reviews. I remember breach being like, you know, it's a pretty good movie, that breach with Ryan Philippi and Chris Cooper. I rewatched it recently.

It's a good, it's a tight little movie. Like, it really, it, it feels like he should still be making things like that. And I don't really understand why he isn't, but. Yeah, this is actually weirdly our third Billy Ray movie because, uh, he wrote the screenplay for state of play, which we covered. And he directed his third directorial effort was secret in their eyes, which is not a good movie, but that is where he and Nicole Kidman worked together. And that is how he ended up writing the AMC ad that Nicole Kidman starred in that has, you know, taken over culture, whatever, which like, it's so funny to think about like, oh, yeah, I guess somebody did, like, write that. And it was like, you know, uh, but it, I mean, he, offed acclaimed writer Billy Ray. He, he wrote it. I mean, it's, it's adapted from Chaucer, but. Well, no, what he did was he had to dig up these stone tablets from the ground where, uh, in gold etchings were.

these words that have existed since time began. It's the 11th through 20th Commandments. Right. Yeah. He had to climb a mountain and go into a cave and answer three riddles and then finally was given to him this stone tablet that said

Heartbreak feels good in a place like this. He's mentioned that like the two lines, the two best lines of dialogue I've ever written are Heartbreak feels good in a place like this and I'm a captain now from Captain Phillips and it's like that, I mean, A lot of writers would be lucky to have one line that gets remembered as well as that.

So to have two, that's pretty good. He wrote the screenplay for the screenplay adaptation for the first version of the Hunger Games, which is why he probably never has to do much of anything ever again. I imagine that probably paid pretty well. And lately it's been not great movies. The 2019 triple feature of Gemini Man, Terminator, Dark Fate, and Richard Jewel is probably not wondering right home again, right home about so much. And then most recently, on his IMDB, I am seeing he wrote and directed and executive produced The Comey Rule, which was one of those things where I was like, not unless you put a gun to my face. Will I like, well I, because also that was, wouldn't that come out in September of 2020 when like, like,

Like, my anxiety over the upcoming election was at a fever peak. I both thought I was going to die at any moment of COVID. And also that like this, you know, horrible, looming election was going to go so poorly. I'm sure at that point I was at like high postal service anxiety. Remember when they were like, the postal service won't be able to deliver your votes on time? Remember when we couldn't get stamp? Remember? Remember all of that? So like I remember, I literally, I had such of this reaction.

No, we were buying stamps to save the USP. I was like, you cannot make me watch this movie that's going to make me re-experience the 2016 election. Like, fuck you for even thinking about it. Absolutely not. Yeah, I wrote a review of the Comey rule that was basically like kind of premised. It was kind of gimmicky where it was like, I suppose if you wanted to, if something was wrong with you and you wanted to watch, you know, blah, blah, but like. Right. Yeah, because it's just, but I don't know.

It's funny because he also did that show, the last tycoon, Billy Ray did. that was like... I watched some of that. It was an Amazon pilot. Would have the competition, you know, to like... Yeah. You'd put the pilots out. But it is kind of weird to me, given his track record, which is pretty solid for, you know, any screenwriter, really.

Why doesn't he have a sort of like Taylor Sheridan kind of thing happening? Like, where... Like, shouldn't he be developing, like, boy shows for, like, I don't know, some random cable. Like, I don't know. In the better sliding doors universe than the one that we're in right now, he is the Taylor Sheridan. And he's the one who has like four shows on TV or something like that. He has like 15 legal shows all interconnected to each other on Paramountas. Right. Totally. I would love that.

It's as a directorial debut, it's a strong one. I'm kind of surprised. It got nominated for four independent spirit awards, but one of them wasn't best first feature, which, although did it get best feature? So I guess, yeah, that sort of. Yeah, I think if you get a feature nomination, they, I think that's right. As they probably should make you not first feature. future is eligible. Luce's to Lost in Translation. But also not a nomination for Hayden Christensen. I cannot understand it in the season because it's all of these like huge macho performances. He's also a young star and it's like a miracle to get somewhat a male actor in their

20s nominated in the lead category. Certainly back then. It's like I feel like the tides are turning a little bit in that, in that direction. and Timmy being a, you know, driving force in that... Or Harvager of Doom. But even if Indy Spirits didn't nominate him, I think speaks less about how about the quality of the performance and more so. It wouldn't have been cool to nominate Hayden Christensen, basically. That's the thing that I think is kind of unfortunate is that he's so good in the movie.

I don't really know what other young actor from that time could really pull off exactly what is required for the way the role's written but him being in it also I think probably harmed the movie because people were like what you think I'm going to go see the awful

Anakin Skywalker in some little indie movie no you know like it was that yeah like if it had been someone else who hadn't had that high profile thing I think maybe the movie would have fared better awards wise Well, and it's also, when you talk about it in the context of awards, so much of awards is this sort of managing an element of surprise.

And I think a role like Stephen Glass and a performance like that coming from a younger actor who was beloved going into it would have gotten a lot more flashy of a reception because people would be like, you wouldn't believe what a, what an untrustworthy, if this is. like DeCaprio or like a lot you know what or not DeCaprio in 2003 but you know what I mean like late 90s decaprio or whatever and people being like you wouldn't believe what a you know weasily little liar uh of a performance that he's able to give whereas at that point nobody really liked hayden christensen so we watched this movie and even though he's very good people were like oh yeah I didn't like hayden christensen going in and I don't like this cat this character coming out so I'm not as you know surprised by this and And, you know, I think in many ways that's, you know, not a terribly sophisticated way of looking at a performance, but I do think it's probably the way... The way people actually do. Yeah, or just sort of like a way the knee-jerk respond to something. I guess my question. Do you think he's good in anything else? I haven't watched any of the Star Wars series past, like, and or is the only Star Wars series that I've watched.

So I haven't watched him sort of back on television. Yeah. I mean, because, like, I also feel like he hasn't gotten an opportunity again, like this role. Yeah. Yeah. I, he was in Factory Girl. Do I remember anything about him in Factory Girl? Oh, he plays War.

I've never seen that movie. He plays Warhol in that movie, right? I believe so. Give me a second. Maybe we eventually need to do Factory Girl then. He doesn't play Warhol. Who plays Warhol in Factory Girl? Guy Pearce plays Warhol.

He is. Hayden Christensen plays the sort of like the thin gloss on Bob Dylan. um in that movie we should do factory girl actually that's a good point we should do that one um other performances he was in a segment of seana miller yeah sienna miller playing edie cedric yeah um he's in a segment of new york i love you that was directed by jang wen uh him and andy garcia and rachel bilsen so were he and rachel bilsen an item after jumpers That why maybe they were? Yes.

They were for years. They were together. Oh, interesting. They might still be together? Wow. Wait, let's see. Rachel Bilsen, and he were married from 2007 until 2017. Not bad for a Hollywood marriage, actually.

Let's see. More recently, he was in above the title with Adrian Brody in a 2014 film called American Heist. that was directed by a Russian filmmaker. He was in a movie called First Kill with Bruce Willis that has a... He's on the poster with Bruce Willis, holding the gun, so there's that. Yeah, no, like, you know, nothing. There is a movie that I've been called Little Italy that he's in, that it's a rom-com.

It came out not that long ago. that's cute um but oh i know this from the poster because it has like a horrid poster right he's like 37 when the movie came out i think and he's kind of playing 23 and it's it's a little it's a little because he's like he's like the young like the grown-up son of the pizza shop owning family and like trying to figure out what he's going to do with his life and it's like he's 37 guys like i don't know but anyway that that movie might be coming up like later, so just hint to find him to be gay. Great.

Are we all prepared to, as a group in unison, say, give Hayden Christensen another chance at a real movie role again? Yes. I saw something online that was like, oh, Hayden Christensen's back because he's doing the two Star Wars shows, whatever. And it's like, okay, if that's what it takes to get him another cool, well done indie, great. Yeah.

That's fine. Yeah. That works. I never realized. This is the first time I'm actually realizing that Asoka is a shattered glass reunion for Hayden Christensen and Rosario Dawson. Wow. Rosario Dawson's in like three scenes of this movie and is so much fun in all of them when

she's... You never know when surprised Rosario Dawson's going to sidling up to Steve Zahn being like, don't you want to share your byline with me? Like, I kind of love that scene. I like the alternative version of a of a newsroom that that presents where that one's a little bit more sort of openly competitive. And but they're working sort of functionally together, whereas everything at the New Republic is so chummy, but also in a way that that is poisonous to the job that they're doing. Well, yeah.

So it shows that like, you know, if you're, you know, hungry underdog, whatever, you might, you might be a little bit more on, you know, on the spot in terms of like noticing when something is awry, you know. Well, okay. So this is where we're going to talk about that then, because like, I understand that in 1990s. internet search capability was again like we all saw that Yahoo splash page like we all we all had horrible flashbacks to you know early computing and whatever but if this guy from Forbes Digital was able to make like a couple phone calls and know and find out pretty quickly that this was bullshit like what was the fact checking like they mentioned when they have this one little moment where Christensen talking to that classroom is like, there's one, you know, fatal flaw in the, in the, you know, Michael Kelly fact checking system or whatever. And it's, if it's a story that is pretty much dependent on the authors, you know, watching it happen, then your only source is the notes. And so essentially being like, you know, some of these

stories, the only person that they had to rely on was Stephen Glass. And like, this is where I'm going to bring up the the handful of times I've I've been fact-checked by Vanity Fair and Vulture when I'm doing sort of any kind of piece that has any kind of factual element to it where like

I'm doing, I'll do like an Oscars nominations facts and figures piece for VF, like the morning of Oscar nominations and I'll spend the bulk of that day with the VF fact-checker who was like, you wrote that like this is the third person to have been nominated three years in a row in whatever and it's like how what's your source on that and all the time I'm like well my sources that I know

it you know what I mean or like my source is that I like they're like how did you arrive at this figure and I'm like I went through Wikipedia and like I went through like the list of best picture winners and like tallied them up by hand and and sometimes I've given my VF's fact checkers spreadsheets that I'm yes and sometimes I'll like I'll like be on like you can use the spreadsheet to find out if I'm lying I'll DMKD or whatever and do like a little bit of like I'm a dumb little writer grumble and just be like can't they just like take my word for it I know like I know about this shit and she's just like they're very good and they're at their job and like and I'm like yeah but like I spent the whole day looking this shit up on Wikipedia like or looking I say Wikipedia and I always like Blanche was like you're not supposed to say that but like whatever like going through records right going through and it's like you know of Oscar winners and I'm like They're not going to do that. I'm like, yeah, they will. Like, they'll spend all day doing the exact same research that I did and following my footsteps and making sure that it's right.

And it's remarkable in a way that's like, sometimes I don't even appreciate because sometimes I'm just like, oh, my God, I already wrote the thing. Just one of them on the website. I'm the opposite. I love when I'm writing something that I get to work with a fact checker. I ultimately, I ultimately, like in the moment I'm a baby about it. But, like, ultimately, I'm so grateful for the work that they do. But so I come around to something like Shattered Glass and I look at these Stephen Glass stories and I'm like, what the fuck was going on there? Like, you know, it's crazy to me.

I don't know. Yeah. Well, and it's also just like it, it's a certain type and era of journalism too where it's like he's essentially writing what amounts to edit. tutorials, right? If all that he would be, you know, scrutinized about is his personal notes, then to what extent is this reporting, you know, like, I don't know. Well, I think there's also the, somewhat of an implication that, like, these stories were so good. They were so juicy. Handwaves through. Of the moment that, like, no one wanted to pause to kind of question it because, like, that road, that breaks the spell, you know? Right. So we're going to. Right. And also the personal. relationship was so much, though, that he would be like, are you mad at me?

Right. You know, making himself into this little puppy dog that, you know, could flirt with everybody, everybody loved and such that personal dynamics also ultimately impacted the way that his work was assessed within a working. Because at least as depicted in this movie, he's not like this, like, very talented charlatan, right? Like the website that he makes for jukeed micronics looks fake as hell. The business cards look incredibly fake.

The, you know, the voicemail messages and whatever. Like, it does not take very much prodding to get to the idea that, oh, there are like big major problems in this. So it's not like he was this like, you know, Frank Abagnall, you know, great con man or something like that, where it's just people wanted. it to be true. People wanted him to be this, you know, incredibly, you know, this myth of the wonderkind is so seductive to people because you want adjacency to that. And

yeah. But anyway, yes, God bless the fact checkers for saving all of our bacon at one time or another. Sometimes it's a little annoying. It is. I fully admit, and it mostly is just for me, my, I'm an, I am absolutely the person who is just like, and I'm done print. And you know what I mean? And you're like, wait, I wrote something for the magazine recently about like the best picture race. It's for like our awards issue. And yeah, I wrote that the anatomy of a fall press screening at Toronto was like really, like busy and there were, you know, a line around the block, whatever. Yeah. And the fact checker was like, I can't find any confirmation that there was a line around the block.

Do you have, like, can you confirm that in some way? I'm like, just, it's a term of art. Take it out. Whatever, I mean, like, my thing about loving it is I, you know, I can be flowery and, you know, free flowing in my own mind, tangential as I normally am. And that process helps me be so much more specific. And I need that leap. Totally. I get that. Yep. And that's part of why I love it.

Revisiting the Independent Spirit Awards, though, because I want to walk up to the SARS Guard of it all, which we should definitely talk about. So four total Indie Spirit nominations, Best Feature loses to Lost in Translation. The other nominees that year were American Splendor, Jim Sheridan's in America, and Raising Victor Vargas. It also loses Best Screenplay to Sophia Coppola for Lost and Transliction.

Translation, American Splendor nominated there as well for Sherry Springer-Burman and Robert Polcini. Christopher Guest, Eugene Levy, were sort of the standard bearers for the Mighty Wind screenplay with the acknowledgement that, you know, all the cast members in improvising had a hand in the writing of that movie. And then Peter Hedges nominated for the screenplay for Pieces of April. A movie I don't like. Um, which... A movie I would sit down and watch immediately right now and have no complaints about watching it, but it is an actively bad movie. I don't think it looks good as the other thing, though.

It's that era of like... Ugly digital. Yeah. Digital filmmaking where it's like those movies aged three days and they all look like shit now. Like, they're unwatchably ugly. Where do you come down on pieces of April, Richard? I don't think I've ever talked to you about that movie. I think it was one of those things.

I was like, oh, that lady is good, but the rest of the movie's annoying. Yeah. You know. I've become such a Katie Holmes pop-timist recently in recent years or whatever that, like, I think it's watching like old Dawson's Creeks or whatever, where I watched an old Dawson's Creek for an article I wrote recently, where it's the one where she and, where Joey and Pacey get locked inside the Kmart towards the end. It was like, like, one of the last episodes. It was when they were like, oh, shit, the series finale is coming in like five episodes. We got to get Joey and Pacey back together. And they hadn't been together for like two seasons.

So like, what are we going to do? Well, we're going to lock them in a Kmart until they like rekindle their love or whatever. And there is, you know, for as much as, you know, she's not Meryl Streep or whatever. But like, there is absolutely a quality to Katie Holmes where you're just like, of course they're going to put her in as many movies as possible. Like, of course she's going to be in that. Somebody hasn't gotten her. I mean, like, and she's doing stuff, like, directing now, which is, like, it's cool and such, but, like, we don't really hear about those movies. But she feels like the kind of performer that, like, just hasn't been paired with a director who gets her in exactly the way that...

I am kind of excited for, like, are we eventually going to get, like, the Katie Holmes project that, like, makes it happen? I don't think so... You might not ever, but it might happen. I don't think it's interesting. I'd like it. I think she's so uninterested in, like, being a public figure, but still wanting to be a creative person, that it just feels like she might be avoiding that. Like, she dated Jamie Fox for years, and we barely heard about it. Those are kind of my favorite Hollywood relationships where you're just like, wait, what?

And for how long? Yep. Also, lost cinematography to, okay, this is interesting. So Declan Quinn wins for In America. Harris Savitas is nominated for Elephant, M. David Mullen for a movie called North Fork, and then Derek C. in France is nominated for a movie called Quatro Noza, also known as Streets of Legend, which I went and looked at the trailer for this movie, and it looks like a student film project, but like high school students. It just looks like a bunch of high school kids went and filmed as they were doing road races. And... It won the cinematography prize at Sundance that year because it was filmed during real road races. So I think it was one of those things where it was just like the narrative was like,

you got to see this movie where like, I can't believe this actually like got filmed without anybody dying. You know what I mean? It was one of those things. And then you look at that and you think about how Derek Cien-France filmed the thing with the motorbike in the gyroscope or whatever in places. Beyond the Pines. And you're just like, oh, okay. So, like, this is kind of a thing that you were doing for a while. And it almost killed Sean Bond. Right. I'm saying. So it's just like this is maybe like, you know, a trend with you or whatever. But I was so fascinated watching this trailer of like, this thing looks like, this looks fake. This looks like not an actual movie. And I guarantee you it was just sort of like I like the, the, you know, word of mouth or whatever around like, can you believe like somebody actually filmed real road races and it actually like. you know, survived to make it to a screen, essentially, and what an odd beginning.

It's not, like, first of all, this is not referenced at all on his Wikipedia page whatsoever. Like, this is not part of the Derek St. in France narrative. I don't think, I think it's probably best forgotten by everybody. But the Independent Spirit Awards have, you know, cemented it in time. Cemented it in time. That's exactly it. History. And then the fourth nomination. Shatterglass shot by Mandy.

Walker, which I wouldn't be nominating this for any cinematography prizes, but Mandy Walker. I do love Mandy Walker. And Michael Dana did the score, too. Like, there's some good professionals working on this. And then the fourth nomination for Shattered Glass was for Peter Sarsgaard's performance. Loses the Indy Spirit to Jiamen-Hansu for In America, who would go on to get an Oscar nomination. Other nominees were Judah Friedlander, an American in Splendor, Troy Garrity, in Soldiers Girl, and Alessandro Navola in Laurel Canyon. And so... One of the hottest performances.

Alessandra Navola? In Laurel Canyon, yes. My God. Oh, yeah. I like Alessander Navola. I think he's a good actor. Yeah. So Peter Sarsgaard was sort of like the one element that could have gotten Shattered Glass and Oscar nomination. He was Golden Globe nominated as well, loses to Tim Robbins there. That was an odd Golden Globes lineup where it's Robin's Albans, Alec Baldwin, Ken Watanabe, who would all go on to get Oscar nominations. And then it's one of those years where the voting was so close that they nominated six. And so it was SARS-Guard, Albert Finney for Big Fish, William H. Macy for Seabiscuit.

And then, like I said, Peter Sarzgard. So I remember thinking at the time, oh, SARS-Guard's probably going to get nominated. The critics really loved him. he got a National Society of Film Critics Award. He won Boston Society of Film Critics. He was, I believe, runner up at least a few of those other ones. He won a few regionals. He was in a supporting actress year that was kind of Tim Robbins and everybody else.

Like, Tim Robbins was sort of slotted in as the frontrunner, and that was sort of set it and forget it for most of that season. Even though I don't like that performance. It's a horrid performance. I really hate that performance. it's also really funny that like the narrative like oh tim robbins he's due right yeah and like at the time sure but he like barely works anymore i feel like and it's just like it's like a weird era to be like we really cared about tim robins having an oscar 20 years we could have yeah if he didn't get the oscar that year we at our vantage point now in 2023 would be totally fine like that would not be an issue um i for whatever reason i read that book and i think it was i think did Mystic River premiere at Cannes that year. Yeah. And so I remember hearing, reading about the movie, and I had just started this job, my first big post-college job, and I would sort of take lunch, take my lunch, at odd hours at my desk, so I got brought a book with me to work eventually and just sort of like read this book on my lunch hours because this was, uh, oh two.

So it was like, it wasn't quite, I guess you could. There was internet to be read on whatever, but like, whatever, I brought a book. Um, and so I bought Mystic River, the novel, the Dennis Lohane novel. And so I read the book. And so I remember having read the book before I eventually saw the movie and being like, no, he's doing this all wrong. Like it's absolutely like not that's not how and whatever like people play. It's all like bug eye. It's way too big. It's way to whisper yelling. Like they're so, it's so indicate and and I don't like it. Um, but he swept to that year. And, but yeah, I definitely. thought Sarsgaard was getting nominated. It's so funny to look at the Hand Film Festival that Mystic River was at. I'm just imagining being there and being like, oh, did you see the brown bunny this morning? Oh, no, I was at Dogville. Are you going to Gus Van Tands Elephant later?

No, I'm seeing Mystic River. It's just like, it's so nuts. What a fun time. What won the palm that year? Elephant did. Oh, right. Elephant did win the palm, yeah. Like me and Kyle Buchanan talking about swimming pool and nothing else for the whole festival.

Wait, Richard, what was your first can? What won the pond the first time you went to Cam? That was 2014. And I want to say it was a Ken Loach movie that won. Oh, sure. Was that idea, Daniel Blake? Maybe I'm wrong about that. Hold on. Let me look.

I'm looking now. I should remember this. Oh, excuse me, no. It was a Ceylon. It was winter sleep. Right. Okay. Yeah.

Got it. Yeah. there was a Mike Lee movie there, no, a Ken Loach movie there, I believe. But yeah, it was good. It was like the Clouds of Silver Maria was there. Remember the Homesman? The Homesman with Hillary Swank? How could we forget?

She's pretty good in that movie, I think. Yeah, she is. Oh, In Zavriot Lund's mommy was there. That was exciting. Anyway. That was the first year I went to TIF. That's so funny. Like, your first Cannes was my first TIF that same year.

Like, imagine being in Canon seeing Shrek 2 in main competition. I do that so often, Richard, I go to, like, festivals that I would have, like, I all the time look up the TIF the year that I graduated college and they're like, I should have just like gone to Toronto and tried to like, you know, get tickets by hook or by crook or whatever and just see a few movies and just sort of like be around there. And like, if I had been a little bit more, you know, ballsy of a person, I probably would have. And what an experience that would have been, you know, in the summer of, in the fall of, oh two to see whatever. Wait, now I want to look that up again because, like, what would have my TIF experience have been in? Oh, we were talking about this before you joined the call where this is also the era, because this was a TIF gala, the era of TIF where it's like all spread across town and you got to like leave your coffee date early because, oh, you've got to get across town to see Danny Decker. Right. Right. I've got to go to the, what was the one that I saw Eden at in 2014? Shit. It was like the bluer. The bluer. The bluer, yeah. Oh, boy.

Okay. So, yeah. So, all right. I'll fast forward to 2003 because, so I'm there. Your gala's in 03 are stuff like the company. Robert Altman's the company. aforementioned Danny Jack Chair Girl with a pearl earring which was one of the Lionsgate movies that kind of elbowed shattered glass out of the way in terms of their attention

the human stain as we've talked about in the cut another movie we talked about wait which one is Mambo Italiano that's the is that the one where it's like our son is gay

like is that the one or maybe not I don't know Um, matchstick men. The second gay rom-com about a gay Italian after the original Super Mario Brothers movies. Veronica Garan, perfect Tiff movie Veronica Garan, School of Rock. It's an interesting festival. I think, but like, I'm like, what would?

It is about being gay Mabo Italiano. And it was the, Luke Kirby is the star. And Luke Kirby is also in Shad of class. I was going to say, I almost said, yeah, I almost said Luke Kirby. And then I was like, wait, that's wrong. But no, I guess I'm right. I like to think that because of my feelings for Hayden Christensen, that I would have taken the time to go see his little indie movie at Toronto, but I just don't know if that's true. Like, I don't know if it would have registered for me, but I think about that.

I'm like, I can't like look at this list and like lie to myself that I would have like perfect taste. So like what would have been like, I would have absolutely seen pieces of April at that one because I would have been like, especially like Patricia Clarkson pilled at that point after far from heaven. or I would have seen the human stain I 100% would have seen the human stain I would have been at that Princess of Wales or wherever the fuck it was you know per me like you know I would have been seated

Wonderland I would have been like yep I'm totally going to see Wonderland where Val Kilmer plays porn star John Holmes like yes I will How wild that love actually played this festival just not a movie you would ever imagine at a festival festival even Toronto Yeah, no, you're totally right.

And, like, I guess I would have seen Elephant because Elephant would have had Can Buzz by then. So, yes, I would have known to do that. Plus, like, Gus Van Sant, I would have, you know, that's a director I knew. But, like, I'm not seeing, like, the Michael Hanukkah movie that year, probably. Like, that is probably not something that's going to be on my radar. Or what I have, like, you know, had the guts to see, like, high tension. Alexandra Ahas high tension at that one, probably not, which I know that's like a divisive movie for a lot of people, but probably would have been a wild scene at, at Midnight Madness.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I would have seen probably some crap. I would have been all over Veronica. Not Veronica Garron's not crap, but like Veronica Garan's not great. But I would have been all over that movie. Absolutely. Well, if you want to see one journalism movie at Tiff, you're going to see the one with Kate Blanchett, not the one with Anakin Skywalker. That's right.

But I also would have, like, I would have seen in the cut. Like, that would have been a cool movie to see at a festival and watch the, like, reactions to that sort of, like, filter around. Like, that would have been interesting. Oh. I saw, like, the temptation to sort of, like, mentally rewrite my 20s is so strong sometimes. And it's like, oh, like, I could have been, you know, finding ways to go and, you know, infiltrate myself into all these sort of corners of cinema. That would have been very interesting. Meanwhile, this movie comes out and it starts my crush on Peter Sarsgaard almost instantly before the, like, basically me getting completely sent to the heavens.

by his performance in Kinsey as far as crushed up. Of course. I'm trying to think if I would have noticed him in anything before this. Boys don't cry. That's true. This is the other thing about him in awards,

especially opposite Hayden Christensen. And it's like, it's a dynamic given their dynamic in the movie that I think is also really interesting is he is an element of boys don't cry. It doesn't really get, there's no awards. And with Chloe 70 in that movie too.

That's really, I never made that connection. Just the second. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a completely different character and performance for him. Well, as it turns out, I would have seen a bunch of movies with him. I just never, I didn't know him by name. You know what I mean? Like, I'd seen Dead Man Walking. I had seen The Man in the Iron Mask. I had seen Boys Don't Cry. And yet I get to, uh, shattered glass. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is my first time sort of like, oh, this is a Peter Sarsgaard performance. right he was in that movie desert blue that i always heard like was always curious about that i never saw but that was right uh that was an early kate hudson movie it was kate hudson christina ritchie caclack um brend sexton the third who i was very familiar with because of empire records i watched so much empire records back then um but it was one of those just like you know

the teens growing up in a desert town and and whatever i should show you that out at some point, see what that was about. SARS-Gard is theoretically in the Oscar race this year, again, for supporting actor with memory, which Richard, I know you like quite a bit. I think the catch-up entertainment of it all means that will not be, his Oscar run will not be a real thing for this movie. Yeah, I mean, it was a big deal that he won at Venice. It's a good movie.

I put it on my best of the ear list. It's just because it's really well-acted. But now the Chastain got a Spirit Award nomination for it, and Sarsgaard didn't. I'm wondering if maybe, like, if there's any momentum for that movie, if it suddenly shifted to, to, she's more famous than he is at this point, right? Yeah. Oh, definitely. She has an Oscar, and he doesn't even have a nomination to his song. As the poster will tell you, he is Vulpey Cup best actor winner emblazoned on the poster for memory.

The thing is, though, is, like, best actress is so. I think, very crowded this year. I think it would be tough for somebody like Chastain. Although, this is what I said all that year that she won. I was just like, well, Chastain will probably get nominated. And that'll be good for her. Oh, I'm on record on Little Gold Men for months, including like right before the Oscars being like, for Chastain, the nomination is the win. Always.

Absolutely. And then she won. Same, same, same. Yeah. Yeah. That was a weird kind of slow steamroll of the season where it was just. Like, no one ever really made up their mind on what to really kind of support. I mean, that she ends up winning all of these things that it's this trajectory from being, like,

no one really knows who the frontrunner is to it ultimately being, like, she's kind of the winner that just happens because it happens, you know? Yeah. immediately after Shattered Glass is the big sort of like boom period for Peter Sarsgaard, right? Where it's like Garden State, Kinsey, even flight plan, you know what I mean? Where it's just like it's, you know, it's a big role for him, Jarhead, rendition, sure, why not? Gives me an excuse to put the rendition sound drop in here, so that'll be fun. And then at some point, I think the sort of like the acclaimed performances are a little bit more spread out.

Do you know what I mean? I think he's great in something like an education. I think he's great in, I honestly think he's great in Blue Jasmine, experimenter, which was a movie that like nobody saw. I haven't seen that movie. He's Stanley Milgram, the sort of, like, the, the, the, the psychology experiments or whatever. I saw that with Griffin Newman, former guest of the show, Griffin Newman. Yeah. He's had a weird career recently, like, to the extent that, I don't mean this mainly exactly, but, like, when he shows up in The Batman, I was like, oh, is this like, did he just, like, audition for this, like, a normal actor?

Like, you know what I mean? Like, it kind of felt like it was just, like, work, you know? Well, and, like, even when he's, like, he's in The Lost Daughter. But it's like, at that point, everybody's like, oh, well, his wife cast him in The Lost Daughter, you know what I mean? Yeah, because she has a front row seat to how hot the man is, and all he really does is have sex with Jesse Buckley in that movie. Yeah, yeah.

I like Peter Sarsgaard as an actor. I know I would love for him to get, and I don't think it's a, I don't think it's one of those things where it's like, oh, those days are past. Like, I do feel like he's one of those actors that could pull down, you know, a really juicy sort of supporting performance in something at some point and really, you know, I would like to believe that his performance in memory and like the, that like half narrative that's kind of going around about him in that movie will lead to something like that. I don't have faith that it'll be. I think people just had to remember, speaking of memory. They had to be like, oh, right, SARS Guard. We should be casting him. What have he been, we kind of dropped the ball on that, you know? Yeah. He's been. He's been. a bunch of, like, TV miniseries. He was in the Looming Tower. He was in Dope Sick.

I didn't watch Dope Sick, but he was in that. He was in a season of the killing. He was in that Wormwood miniseries, that what's his name? Errol Morris. Did you ever see that? That was like documentary, but

with also recreations, that was like a really interesting way of combining a docudrama that was about the LSD experiments and whatever. And he was very good in that. And I think we all, of course, remember him as he's essentially the lead in the slap, the, uh, the American remake of the slap. So, um, obviously, which I have maybe, uh, called for us to do an excursion on in our patria. He's in, David E. Kelly is remaking

presumed innocent, the Harrison Ford movie, presumed innocent from the 80s. Um, with Jake Gyllenhaal, so the cast is really good. Jake Jelinehall, Ruth Nega, Bill Camp and Elizabeth Marvel together. We've talked about them as a package deal. Renata Reinsov from the worst person in the world. Peter Sarsgaard, Lily Raib. Who else is in this? Oh, my God.

Noma, Jumazweni, who was in well, she was just in Only Murders in the Building this year, but she was in that Nicole Kidman, Hugh Grant, HBO series that everybody kind of hated and I really kind of liked. the undoing where she's like great in that she's going to be in this she's the judge in this which she was also Hermione Granger on Broadway right she was also Hermione on Broadway in Harry Potter and the cursed child I'm all in on this I know that like remaking movies into miniseries is a dumb way of remaking movies because it just sort of the god the fatal attraction remake was so fucking bad the sorry Joshua Jackson sorry Lizzie Kaplan poor Lizzie cap But it was so bad. And in that way, I'm not really, I shouldn't be excited, but, like, I am excited.

I can be a sucker for David E. Kelly. And I love this cast. So, I don't know. It's probably bad, right? I'm probably setting myself up for a fall, right? I don't have any anticipation for it, though, that cast is very enticing. It's really enticing, right? Jake Gyllenhaan, Rithnega?

Like, come on. Sure. All right. Um, I guess that'll be this year, this coming year. I got to start turning the page at some point and start looking towards building out my, uh, uh, spreadsheets for 2024. We're getting there. We're getting closer. I know.

It's, uh, it's a lot to think about it. And yet the season is nowhere near over. Briefly, because we are sort of running long, but I wrote down a list of sort of journalism movies at the Oscars and stuff like that. And I kind of thought there would be more of them. If you look through like, this was just me going through the best picture list. And I, you find that, like, Oscar voters are much more attuned to things like war dramas and biographies and, you know, that journalism dramas are a little bit of more of a niche for them. But I think there's some really good ones if you look back through your all the president's men's. and broadcast news and The Insider

and Good Night and Good Luck and Spotlight and the Post and stuff like that. Like, that's a bunch of really good movies. I am probably the biggest fan of The Post that I know I really, really loved that movie to the point where I'm like, literally looking at this list and like, I shouldn't watch The Post at some point again. Like, I shouldn't do that.

I mean, I remember seeing The Post at, like, the first, it was like one of the last movies left to see that season. and it was the first screening and it was like a nighttime thing and everyone was really excited and I walked out of that and I was like well that's winning every single Oscar and then it like had a really hard time making money and winning anything it was very surprising two nominations it got best picture and best actress and that was it and like that's one of those quirks of the top 10 best picture era that I don't that's I generally am in favor of a top 10 best picture list just because it gives shine to more movies and like these days we sort of need that more than ever but it's does create those things where it's like it is sort of a false best picture nomination when it's like well if you only got one other nomination like they didn't really like you that much you know what I mean so like right people just needed to fill out their list yeah right and that's sort of that I do find a little bit annoying um was spot when spotlight one was they were they doing tiered ballots back then yes the preferential I think so that's

how that movie won it because it was number two on a lot of people's like no like that's that's That would be my way. Right. Because you got the Revenant people and the Mad Max people. And everyone appreciated Spotlight, you know. So it was the consensus pick in that way. It was not necessarily the favorite by any, you know. There was that thing going around when the Mad Max, the Furiosa trailer came out where some, I'll say, dummy, did that sort of very easy tweet of like, you're telling me that Mad Max lost best picture to Spotlight.

And it was one of those like, why do we care about what the Oscars think? They're always dumb and wrong. And it's like, and I was so encouraged by so many people being like, Spotlight's great, bro. Like, what are you talking about? I'm like, fuck yeah, it is. Like, I love Mad Max Fury Road too as much as anybody. But like, we don't need to. There was a lot.

That was the tone of like, we don't need to be dumping on Spotlight. Spotlight's a good movie. No, there are, there are genuine Oscar villains and Spotlight is by no means one of those, you know. Exactly, exactly. Mad Max could have lost Best Picture to the Revenant, which like I was one of the few people that was pro on the Revenant. it felt like, but the Revenant doesn't need a best picture. Right. Yeah, I agree. I'm going through my notes.

I wrote down the part where Steve Zon's editor at Forbes Digital comes to him with the Hack Heaven story, and it's like, why didn't you get this story? And it's like, that to me, like a shiver came down my spine where it's like, I hate, that's maybe the least favorite thing about the kind of work that I do is any time. And to me, it's never been that blatant. It's never been that, like, why didn't you do this? But, like, any time that somebody, like, posted, like, this was a really good article that this other publication did. And there's always that, like, implied, implied, why didn't you write this?

You know what I mean? Like, why didn't, why haven't you written something as good as this? And it's just it. My anxiety levels when I, when that scene happened, it's just really spiked. I was like, oh, my God. The, that awful, you know, oh, I could have, I could have been. I could have written something that people liked, and now my editors. Are you mad at me?

Are you mad at me? I don't know. I don't know. You don't write funny. Rosario Dawson being like everything I'm working on is so dull is also another really good line because it's like even among the like people who are on the right side of things are also experiencing this thing. It was just like, I just want to do something exciting. I don't want to write about policy. the business card it's such a it is such a shitty scam the like the aOL email address on the business card all of that stuff um chloe 70's character would not let that georgetown shit go in a way i found very funny like she found a way to bring that up constantly where she was like maybe if you weren't going to law school all the time you would have been able to to figure this out better and just like oh my god with the fucking law school um

David the Twink intern gives up the Intel on Palo Alto accidentally. Oh, the end credits font. The, is that Courier? End credits font? Courier. Unreal. Unreal. Unreal touch to put on it.

What did you guys think? Final thoughts before we move into our game, but what did you guys think? It's a good movie. Good movie. I think the shifting media landscape makes this a increasingly more interesting movie, the older that it gets Yeah, I think it's For all of the reasons that we can spot like it's off to the casting director

I love I love who they assemble Put to be in this like it's a really I think it's and it's really fun to see you know Melanie Linsky or seven year or whatever like Melanie Linsky is so good at playing this kind of character Who's like the sort of the that imposter syndrome sort of coming out and her and just like Oh yeah incredible incredible

And again all of those things like all of those moments where it's that thing where you can tell that like other people like somebody in your office better than you and buy some weird transitive property don't like you more because they like this other person where this is like zero-sum game of loyalty and of appreciation that I found really interesting. Okay, I do want to talk about that. One last thing before we go is, did you? all react to the scene where they all applaud Chuck at the end the same way I did. I didn't believe it or buy it. And I think putting a scene there that I didn't buy to essentially applaud the good journalist when it's so much more of an institutional failure and like it's such a whiplash.

There's also an uphill climb to get everybody to believe that he deceived all of them. Yeah. That they all came around so quickly. Yeah. The fact of everybody in this boardroom clapping to the audience suggests, like, well, they always thought that he was full of shit and they finally took him down. That's what, that's where applause would come from in that moment. It doesn't make sense. They're still fucked.

They're having, they're about to have like the worst week of their entire lives. Like, I could understand being like a tip of the hat to Chuck and just be like, Chuck, you were right. whatever, and move on. But, like, they are still in the pits of hell in terms of what they are going to have to fight back from at this point. So, like, I don't get that at all. Yeah, I feel like they would be stunned into silence and be really embarrassed and scared about what was coming next. Yeah, I don't see them being like, like you said, Chris, like they all loved him, you know, like, or at least most of them, a lot of them did. And it's like, yeah, that comes, I know he wanted to do, oh, well, they're, they're clapping for Stephen and his fantasy. And then

they're clapping for the guy who took them down in real life. Okay, but that's, that little bit of cute symmetry is not worth kind of shifting reality like that. Yeah. Like Marty Perrette's clapping when he, in reality, probably like, steam is coming out of his ears for, you know, days on end because of what's about to happen to his magazine. Like, yeah, I don't buy it. I don't buy it.

I don't buy it. I don't buy it. Um, all right. Chris, why don't you take it? tell our listeners what the IMDB game is. So every week, we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for.

If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That is the IMDB game. Um, Richard, as our guest, we will give you first, crack at the IMDB game, you can either give your clue first or guess first, and you can set the order of the round robin. I will give first. Get it out of the way. And also, I feel like I didn't

choose well. But you guys have done a lot of people already. We have done a lot of people. So I mentioned Little Italy, the Hayden Christensen rom-com. His co-star in that is Emma Roberts. Okay. And I don't think you guys have done Emma Roberts. And so, Chris, I'm going to ask you to guess Emma Roberts's INDB4. Okay. How much TV is there? There is exactly zero TV.

Okay. Nancy Drew. New. Oh, okay. She was the Nancy Drew, right? I think so, yeah. I think so. I think that's right.

Scream 4. No. Wow. Okay. She's incredible in Scream 4. She really is. This is going to be really hard for me. So I'm struggling already.

What are my years now? Okay. Your years are 2006, 2011, 2013, and 2016. So 2006, she was pretty young. Yeah. That's like, that's before Scream 4. Yeah. It's around Nancy Drew time.

It would probably after. Nancy Drew. So it's got to be a teen thing or she's playing someone's kid. Yeah, yeah. It is, it is indeed a teen thing. Can I just give hints now or no? Sure. Oh, it is what I was thinking of.

Yeah. One of her co-stars is a musician who gay people love, but has not done a ton of stuff. Oh, okay. Oh, right. A woman that gay people love. okay but hasn't done a lot of movies in oh six or even a lot even a ton of music because something happened but yeah um oh um something that happened was unable to work for a long time right because of an injury of some kind nope uh more of like a a no business man oh went to jail

no no just like for a business like there was a contract problem kind of like kesh Oh, she mostly is known for, like, one song in particular. I think she has like a second hit, but I think it's mostly the one song. And was known just by a first name. Yeah, yeah, a mononym. Right. But would have been with Emma Roberts in a teen. They are two of the threesome at the center of the film.

They are playing the two humans. Yeah. Oh, it's aquamarine. It is aquamarine. With Jojo. Forgot that Emma Roberts is in Aquamarine. I saw Jojo in a rehearsal staged performance of a jawbreaker musical that I don't believe ever got made that included Diana de Garmo, Jojo, and Frankie Grande in the cast. And it was, it's the only time I've ever been invited.

Darren Stein was kind enough to invite me to witness that and it was like you're in like a Broadway rehearsal studio and just chairs are set up and they are just sort of performing the songs right there. It was a wild, wild scene, but it was really interesting. Okay, Chris. We can do this. We can do this. The next one, well, the 2011 one I'm going to say for last because I haven't seen it and whatever. We'll deal with that when we do with it. The The 2013 movie is a comedy starring an S&L person and a huge sitcom star turned dramatic TV actor now who won a Saga Award a few years ago. Oh, okay. So is that like Steve Carell?

Mm-mm-mm-mm. S&L. Saturday Night Live, not Dalycia. Yeah, but I was thinking of the comedy drama pipeline. Well. No, the co-star of the S&L person is the sitcom star turned dramatic. actor who won a SAG recently. Oh, okay.

But where you were thinking of that Steve Carell ended up is probably where you want to reside. Yes, yes, right. Right, because that's, I was thinking of morning show. Right, you are correct, keep thinking of morning show. Jennifer Aniston. Yeah. Jennifer, this is, oh, it's We're the Millers. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Um, yes, well, wasn't she in like a Nicholas Sparks movie, no? Mm-mm. Your next one is 2016, and it's kind of a techno thriller. Oh, is that also? We just had this. It's nerve, isn't it? Yeah, it's nerve. And then, okay, so 2011 is...

This title is familiar to me. I definitely never saw it. This is a round scream four. It is. So, and she's in like a certain version. vibe right now. It is very much a Sundance kind of movie. Yeah. I mean, it did premiere

at Sundance. Um, so it's an independent production. She's theoretically, like, in that Kristen Stewart was known for Twilight, she was in this moment of being like heir to Kristen Stewart

kind of she's There was a while there. Okay, this. Remember, this is not the movie, but she was also in a movie where it's her and the kid from United States of Tara are in a- What's that? No. Brie Larson.

Right, that's Emma Roberts in that movie, the one where they're in the mental hospital. Richard, do you remember that one? Oh, it's kind of a funny story. Yeah. So this movie, I think. is in that same general milieu. It's

drama comedy. It has a 19% on Rotten Tomato. Writer director whose name I don't recognize it's got a

bunch of like The lead of the movie was on a TV show after this shortly thereafter in which their co-star

gave one of the craziest TV performances of all time and one that I tweeted about extensively that is true like a decade

gay to go. And it's based on a famous movie. Yeah. And it's currently playing a doctor on television, I think. I think that the doctor's supposed to be, I think, pretty good, right? Yeah, I think so. I think that's right. Freddie Highmore?

Yeah. So it's a Freddie Highmore vehicle that you're trying to guess. Oh, they were like romantically paired in this movie. Yes. She's like the quirky, you know, he's the kind of like loner boy and she's the quirky girl who brings them out of a shell, I believe. I've not seen it. I'm just going to start reading cast members. I don't know if this will help you at all, but from the bottom up, uh, a little...

This does sound like some Sundance bullshit. Alicia Silverstone, Sam Robards, Elizabeth Riser, Rita Wilson, Anne Harada, Blair Underwood, Anne Dow. What is this movie? Marcus Carl Franklin. Michael Ungerano, Freddie Highmore, Emma Roberts. Sasha Spielberg, too. Sasha Spielberg.

Oh my God, yeah. Sorry, Sasha Spielberg. Wow. I feel like... I'm fully blanking. Yeah, no, I mean, this movie that barely exists. Okay. Joe, you're better at cluing. Joe, do you think I know what this movie is?

I think you know, I think you're probably in the same boat that I am, where you have heard the title, but you don't know. You've never seen it. So, okay, the title... I'm trying to visualize a poster, and I cannot visualize in 2011, a poster with Freddie Hyde. They're on the streets of New York. There's like a taxi cab, and it's all very fake. a brick wall, and then at the back end of a taxi cab, and a subway entrance, and they're both walking in opposite directions of each other. I've seen a million posters like this, so it's hard to...

Okay, so it's, it's a five-word title. I'm trying to think of, like, what title is similar to. It's like, hold on. I think there's... She's fully known for this movie. not scream. Right, absolutely, or any of the American horror stories, uh, or anything like that. I have no idea why it would be in her top four. It's so funny. So there have been a couple movies recently that have the same sort of, uh, opening clause of this, like the opening first

three words, one of which was, um, a movie where, uh, uh, what's his name, uh, Jesse Eisenberg learns how to fight at a at a dojo and another one The art of The art of Yeah

The art of Isn't there a movie The Art of Fitting In? It's not fitting in But you're in the parking lot And you're circling You're circling your space The art of

You're right to put a Jarend in there if someone asked how you were doing and you were doing the art of getting by there you go there we go yeah i know that as a that's exactly what i'm saying you know that as a title but i don't know if i've ever seen that poster but it's demented that that's on her known for no that's so funny you have to pick those movies when they show up in a known for like you have you have to pick that person for unknown for when you see it demented known for for emma roberts what in the world All right.

All right. So, Chris, you're giving to me. All right. So for you, I also chose a young actor in a Billy Ray film. I chose for you from the motion picture breach, Ryan Philippi. Oh, okay. No television. No television.

Cruel intention. Cruel intentions is correct. I know what you did last summer Incorrect 54 54 is correct Wow Famous

This had Oscar Buzz movie 54 Um Ryan Is Breach one of them? No incorrect So your years are 2001 and 2004 Gosford Park

Gossford Park, correct. Is the 0-1-0-4... Gosford Park shows up for everybody. It's true. In fact, I should have gotten it earlier for that reason alone. 0-4, Ryan Philippi. Oh, boy. That's much later than the way of the gun.

The 0-4 thing is a little confusing, no. I'll just say that. Oh, because... Oh, yes. O-4, you should be thinking not O-4. So it premiered at a festival in O-4, so it would have opened in, like, 0-5? Yes, yes. Crash.

Yep. Crash. Wow, okay. All right. Another Toronto thing. Very much so. That would have been the O-4 of it. Yeah, yeah.

All right. Richard, for you, I also went into Billy Ray's filmography. He was, as I mentioned, the screenwriter for the first Hunger Games movie, and one of the cast members in that was one Donald Sutherland. So I'm going to challenge you with Donald Sutherland. Oh, no. I'm going to be so bad at this. Is the Hunger Games in there? Yes, but not the Hunger Game.

So Mocking Jay Part 2? Yeah. Yeah. Not part two. Wait, is it not part? I've got to click on it. No, not part two, sorry. The Mockingjay Part 1.

Yes. Yes. That's, well, I guess I can't ask if there are more. Is catching fire in there? Yes, catching fire. That is wild that not the first and not the last. Right, right. So I got two non-hunger gamesies.

Yeah. Oh, boy. MASH. No. not match. So that's two strikes. So your years are 2005 and 1978. Oh, boy.

Um. 2005, I'm sure you've seen, and I think, I think you probably liked it, is my guess. Um, the lead actress was Oscar nominated. Okay. It's American? No. No. Oh, oh, the Julie Christie movie.

no no what am i thinking of you're thinking of away from her which would have been oh seven is that not that's uh gordon pinnichay oh right okay sorry yeah um he is in a movie with julie christie though right yes uh the one where they have maybe real sex what was that call look now yes don't look back don't look now not that's not on the known for but um is the 78 one the invasion of the body snatch yes it is the invasion of the body snatchers very good i watched that recently is the only reason I know. It's a good movie. I wanted to watch it this Halloween, and then I got distracted with other stuff that I had to watch. 05, it is wild to me that they decided to give him his honorary Oscar after this because he had never been nominated before, but they didn't nominate him for this movie.

I would have nominated him for this movie. Oh, so he's a significant role in it. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Oh, right. He plays Johnny Cash and walked along. He's amazing. This lead actress... and director paired up a few times. This was the first of, I want to say, three pairings of this lead actress and director. You and I sort of famously disagree, famously. I remember that you and I disagree on one of the three of these movies, that I really liked it, and you didn't care for it.

But this one, I think you like. It's an adaptation of a work of literature. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Wait, is he in Pride and Prejudice? He is in Pride and Prejudice. He's her father. Oh, he is. Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. We do disagree on Anna Karenina. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We do. And atonement or just anachronin.

I don't care for Atonement either. Yeah. Okay. I think you and I are on opposite ends of the Joe Wright divide. Yeah. I mean, I liked... Pan. A shirt. Pans, the soloist. Yeah. Oh, God. Okay. All right. What was the other one?

What? What's the Peter Dinklage? What's, Serenow, Serenow, there you go. Woman in the window. I won't say who, but when I was at Telleride, when the Serenot premiered, I ran into a well-known awards pundit. I will not say who. And they said, I don't know.

I think I just saw best picture. Get out. All right. As soon as we're done, you're telling us. I can imagine. I don't know if I can. All right. I can.

Richard, once again, for the first. fourth time. Thank you so, so much for joining us. You were my first choice for this episode, and it was really fun. So thank you. Thanks for having me. And thank you for scanning the magazine stuff. I mean, that's just a real trip. Oh, I mean, anytime we can walk down the EW memory lane, I am happy to do it. I will add it to my stack of eBayed EW issues that I have now. All right. Where can our listeners find you? And I'd read you. I know you're top 10 of the year as we are recording this.

Top 21, actually. Yes, that's right. That's right. It's a fantastic read. I haven't read all of it because I want to see all of the movies that are on it before. I read all those blurbs. I'm one of those weirdos. But always one that I look forward to more than any of the other ones.

And I would say that to you, even if I wasn't your friend. So. Well, thank you. Just take that compliment. That is on B.F.com. And yes, Blue Beetle is on the list. It is. joking.

I'm going to watch it only because it's on your list. I would likely skipped it. Sweet. But anyway, so vf.com and then I'm on Instagram at Rylos and I guess for now, Twitter slash X is the same. As they say in technological circles. All right. Listeners, that is our episode.

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