This Had Oscar Buzz - 269 – Eyes Wide Shut

Episode Date: December 25, 2023

Listeners have been asking for this episode for years and today, Santa is bringing it to you! Happy Holidays, it’s time for Eyes Wide Shut! In 1999, the film was hotly anticipated for many reasons: it starred Hollywood’s most famous couple, it was the final film of master of masters Stanley Kubrick, its very long … Continue reading "269 – Eyes Wide Shut"

Oh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melan Hack, Millen Hack and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Poop I have seen one or two things in my life but never, never anything like this Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that couldn't have even happened here on Sunday because we're closed on Sundays.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Vile, Merry Christmas, and I am here, as always, with my horny Hungarian Joe Reed. So horny. Okay. That scene... So Geminiere. Yes, but also the scene with the two of them where they first meet, where he first meets Nicole Kidman's character.

And, like, I get that she's also, like, several champains into the evening. But, like, it's the most... And I'm pretty sure this is intentional. Or it's just sort of a sign of, like, Nicole Kidman breaking down under Kubrick's, you know, insane multiple takes or whatever. Neither one of them are behaving, like, actual human beings, where they're just like, she's so, like, her method of flirting is, like, flirt like you've read it in a manual or whatever, where she's just like, oh, I don't know. Like, well, she's all, like, very, like, demonstrative or whatever. And he's coming up with like these most sort of like leering commons or whatever. And I'm like, this is all incredibly awkward and over-gestured and everything.

And that was my main takeaway from that scene this time. In fairness to her wooziness, I mean, she probably has an ocular migraine from all of the festive seasonal lighting. Oh, I have thoughts about the seasonal lighting. Appropriately. Yeah. Also, the Hungarian probably would be maybe 40% as sexy in, like, natural lighting. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. You know, there's just a whole overcast vibe happening. The lighting in that, in that particular party with, like, the bright white, it's the only place where you see white Christmas lights, because every other place where you see Christmas lights, they are multicolored Christmas lights. And that's very, it's one of my favorite details of the movie is that, like, this, these sort of, like, opulent, rich spaces either have no Christmas lights. Christmas lights and it's very like, you know, the Fidelio party or whatever, where it's just like,

you know, torches and whatnot. Or it's these like blinding white Christmas lights and everything else are these like very warm, you know, rainbow-colored lights in dark spaces that look very pretty and very sort of, you know, inviting. The Fidelio party being lit by, as you mentioned, torches, body heat, and embers from the doorway to the gateway to hell. Um, if gays, if circuit gays had better taste, there would be a monthly warehouse party somewhere called Fidelio. Like, it is really surprising to me. Not surprising to me, but like, it's not surprising that circuit gays don't have better taste. But like, we'll talk about the whole Fidelio thing. Yeah. It couldn't be less sexy intentionally so. But you mentioned that the Hungarian, who doesn't have a name, we're just going to call him the Hungarian. And, Nicole Kidman's character are not behaving like normal human beings to which I say, welcome to people

in a Stanley Kubrick movie. Well, yeah, welcome to this entire Stanley Kubrick. Welcome to this specific Stanley Kubrick movie. The only conceivable human being is also a monster, and that's the Sidney Pollock character, who like Sidney Pollock, I think, is incapable of not just being Sidney Pollock. So it's like, he's a conceivable human because it's like, well, yeah, that's Sidney Pollock. It does make it all the more upsetting when it's just like, Sydney Pollock, like, almost killed this girl with the speedball, and now she's like nearly dead in his bathroom, and he just, like, had sex with her. I'm like, Sydney Pollock, you've disappointed me. Not the director of the firm. My God.

Talk about the firm, honey. I don't know. There's only, I would say, maybe three sexy things in this movie, and not to get too far ahead of ourselves. But the three sexy things are Kidman's monologue about how she's just horny for this guy she saw. Yeah. The end of the movie where she's like, well, we could go have sex. Right. And then Sidney Pollock's suspender.

Oh, God. Unfortunately, given the context of the movie. I did enjoy the fact that there was, like, one gay male coupling at the sex party, which, like, when we get into the Fidelio talk, I have thoughts on that. But that was at least nice that they got to dance. As did the culture at the time, as did everyone in the culture, whether they had seen the movie or not, before the movie was released, after it was released. We should also mention that we are now officially the last podcast to do an episode on IceWy's wide shut. We are. We kept pushing it off and kept pushing it off. We every, now every single podcast that has ever talked about movies and maybe even a lot of podcasts that don't talk about

movies primarily have done episodes at Ice Wide Shut. Blank Check has done one. I imagine the big picture has done like 12 by now. It always... The definitive one came out this year with Karina Longworth's, you must remember this, which actually was two episodes. Right. It's come up on screen drafts a whole bunch they've done you know podcast like it's 99 has has done their episode on so like we are now the last horse out of the barn we are the final i'm not going by our listeners especially at christmas time here we are on christmas day and i am probably the one of the two of us who have dragged my feet on this the most because i never quite know what to say about this movie i've i've my opinion on it has definitely

evolved. I was definitely one of those sort of Cretans who, at all of, you know, 19 years old, saw that movie and was, and was like, that sucked. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I watched that and it was, I was the very typical person who was sold a bill of goods on this movie where I was expecting, it's not like, I mean, part of me, I guess was, like, I'm going to, I'm expecting the movie that, you mustn't remember this, talked about this a lot about like, they sold this movie essentially on like, go watch the most, famous couple in the world, fuck on screen. And I guess I was sort of, but like, I think the thing that I was more expecting was a movie about a shadowy cabal running a sex party and then like him getting to the bottom of it. And of course, that's not what the movie is about at all. That's, you know, a pretense or a pretext more than anything. It's like the act one finale. There's a whole other hour after that happens. Well, there's a whole other hour before he even hears about this party where he even goes to see Todd Field perform at that little club. So it's like it is in the grand scheme of things

very thematically important, but like plot wise, it is a much smaller part of the movie. And I was really sort of thrown and let down by that. And as I've watched this movie, I've watched this movie maybe four times over the course of my lifetime, maybe five. I've certainly learned to appreciate it more and to see sort of what Kubrick is doing and appreciate it for the some of its parts, I still have never gotten to the sort of all-consuming enthusiasm for this movie that a lot of people have. And as such, I'm not really super thrilled to have to put that on wax, essentially, and just sort of like, you know, for all time lay down my appreciative, but sort of my heart's not in it, thoughts on a movie that a lot of people

really, really genuinely love. And, like, not only love, but, like, defend. in this very sort of like fierce way because it had been so misunderstood. Because of the immediate reaction after the movie was released, which like we'll talk about some of that and the build up to this movie. Yeah. This is a very definitively mismarketed or maybe foolishly marketed movie, I should say. This is not a movie that should have basically, basically be like a mystery box movie. We've talked about movies that I'm like, they present.

They're presented to audiences like a mystery box movie. Like, what is this object we're about to discover? And you can understand the appeal, especially for a filmmaker, to be like, to withhold information about what audiences are going to see. We talked a lot about this one back in our 100th episode on Mother and how this can really, really backfire for a movie like this. I mean, eyes wide shut wasn't even screened for press until days before it opened. wide, which is a horrible idea. You know, the press doesn't even have any time whatsoever to really kind of sit and reflect on it. They can only have an immediate reaction.

Of all the weird movies to have ever opened it, Cannes, it's wild that this one didn't. Because this one, because even if it had a bad reaction, then you chalk that reaction up to, like, well, it's Cannes. You know what I mean? Well, but, yeah, I mean, I don't think Kubrick had any relationship with Cannes. In his lifetime, too, that it would have played there. I don't think it eventually played Venice after it had already opened, but like in an out-of-competition kind of, you know, vanity slot. And I think this is why you see in a lot of the reviews from the time that they're in reviews of the film, where they're supposed to be critiquing the film, they go so far into the context. in which the movie was launched, because, like, everybody's talking about the censorship of the Fidelio sequence, and they're talking, like, it's hard to not find one that's talking about the production of the movie, which was incredibly well publicized and kind of hounded for, you know, the length of the filming.

Not to defend mismarketing and not to defend sort of the kind of leering gaze that went in. into this movie, I think on a couple levels, if I'm Warner Brothers, and my choices are to sell a psychosexually ponderous movie about a man who continually doesn't have sex throughout this movie, or I have the most famous couple in the world making out naked in front of a mirror, like, I know how I'm going to sell this movie. Do you know what I mean? Like, I can't entirely blame Warner Brothers for selling the movie this way. And I also can't entirely blame the press for lingering on what was a Guinness World Record long movie shoot, you know what I mean, where the director died. Some of that was all inflated and misreported as well. Corina Longworth

goes into a lot of detail there, if I remember correctly from those episodes. So it's like there was an unfair treatment of this movie in the press as it was being filmed. But as far as the marketing is concerned, to my understanding, it was a lot more in Kubrick's court, not to doubt a Asmanola kind of side-eyes genius. But a lot of Warner executives didn't have, because Kubrick is Kubrick. and he has the level of control, they hadn't seen the movie until he was done with it and then died.

Or, like, they saw a version of it shortly before he was done with it. So they didn't really know what they were marketing either. I mean, I think all of this creates this kind of perfect storm for a movie to be wildly misinterpreted

and not prime the audience for what they're going to see in a way that makes them actively hostile towards this. This is a movie that got a D-minus cinema score. I'm not surprised. Here's the other thing is like, this is a moot. This is not a movie that is intent on giving you what you want. Like, it's, he knows what he's doing with this movie. He knows how he is

sort of presenting sex in this movie as this kind of centerpiece. But like, it's also just like repeated scenes of, again, Tom Cruise, who he cast for a reason, you know what I mean? 100%. And, you know, going on this sort of like Odyssey through the city where he, you know, once again, repeatedly doesn't have sex, you know what I mean? Like, this is, like, that's the whole point of the movie.

So it's like, but like, not to be like is emasculated, but like his version of masculine sexuality or like his horny brain is like actively dismantled in every single scene of this movie, um, in a way that's so entwined with Tom Cruise's star persona and our perception of Tom Cruise and his hangups. Like, this movie, I think almost remains more fascinating today as a Tom Cruise document than a Stanley Kubrick one. Yes. Um, because, also because it's like, watch this movie in Vanilla Sky back to back sometime and like, watch, watch your perceptions of Tom Cruise really go for a rollercoaster. Yeah.

This is also a Tom Cruise that we, I believe we will never have again. No. Because it's, you had this magnolia in the same year, and to a lesser degree, Vanilla Sky. I mean, Vanilla Sky was him reuniting with Cameron Crow. It's a strange movie. It's a movie that's interested in. It's a more, Cruz's screen persona. As vanity more so than as a sexual being.

Like, even by Vanilla Sky, I think he had decided, I'm not. Like, my, that version of myself as an actor is gone. He's not taking risks as an actor with that movie, too. It's a strange movie, but, like, on that level, it's not risky. It's not him looking inward in really any substantive way, I would argue. Watching Eyes Wide Shut and Magnolia coming out back to back in 1999 really is a sort of, like, burn the fields and salt the earth of Tom Cruise as a sexual being. where, like, eyes wide shut dismantles it, and then Magnolia really curdles it. You know what I mean?

Because in Magnolia, his whole presence as a sexual being is this, like, dominant male, you know, art of the pickup kind of a person. But it really is just, like, virulent misogyny that is, like, barely concealed, if it is even concealed. All because Daddy didn't love me, you know? Right. And so all of a sudden, after that, it sort of becomes impossible to, no pun intended, to view Tom Cruise through a anything, a lens is anything other than a sexless action star. The thing that makes me gasp every time is when he gets gay bashed by... That's the funniest goddamn scene. It is really funny, but it also works in.

dandum because it is a sexual thing, this, like, gaggle of straight men who, like, multiple time throw gay epithets at him. But the thing that I forget every time I watch it and makes me gasp every time is they make fun of his height. And, like, you know Stanley Kubrick knew what he was doing. 100%. 100%. Who was, like, 5'8. Yep. He was always, and like, the stories were always that sort person, but like by Hollywood standards, the thing is always like, well, Tom, you know, Tom's height, Tom's height, you know, whether or not that actually bothers him as a person. Yeah, it was a very famous sensitivity of his where like it was known. It's not always known, you know, what sort of hangups and sensitivities actors are, but like people knew even then that Tom Cruise was

sensitive about his height as a leading man as a very short leading man. It was, it was like snagletooth, he took care of that. height couldn't, couldn't, couldn't, figure that one out. Couldn't figure out a way around that one. I am, like, this is our, what, 12th, 13th, Kidman movie. So, like, I think we'll probably... We've done more Kidman movies than Merrill Street. Yeah. And, yeah, we've done more Kidman movies than anybody.

So I think we'll probably end up delving more severely into crews in this, although to get it out of the way, Kidman's incredible. And this was... I think this was the, I think after to die for, and because nobody really watched the portrait of a lady, I think she needed this second movie to sort of like really cement that like she had the goods, you know what I mean? You could also credit Portrait of a Lady, too. Because like those, those feel, while those are great performances, it does feel like it's setting the stage for this. And I mean, they started filming. this movie in 1996. So you could maybe attach those movies. Right. But I'm...

To those movies more than you could later. But you watch her performance in this movie. And it feels like the start of something. It feels like the start of something major. And it was because she, I mean, in the interim of this movie's filming, which like, she's not as in nearly as much of this movie as Cruz, but like things like practical magic come out in the interim. But after this movie's release, there's not.

Nothing until Moulin Rouge and the others when she skyrockets, and, like, she gets the appreciation for those movies. She doesn't get bad reviews for this movie. I mean, most of even the negative reviews, I think, have positive things to say about her. But it does feel like, as far as awards go, they really miss the mark in not recognizing her, even for a movie that wasn't as well liked at the time. I suppose we should get to table setting before we just delfts. right the hell in before we go on an Odyssey

through London quote's New York City by that we mean Pinewood Studios backlot

it's it's also mostly the same street if not like just a bunch of similar-looking streets it's

it's interesting to and it's a lot of those scenes are set in the West Village, where there are actually streets where you can see the ends, like both ends of the street in the same sort of two-shot, which like is generally pretty rare. New York has a lot of very sort of like long avenues and sort of long across streets that you

don't really ever see the end to. And like Greenwich Village really is the exception where it's like you can be on a street with a bunch of shops where like, you know, Greenwich Avenue is on one. side on one end and seventh avenues on the other or something like that um it is a bit greenwich village by way of amsterdam in oh yes oh yes like it's and there is lights don't help that right there is there is fabulous so i shouldn't say that like it's a majority but there's an essential sort of falseness to it and and yeah that's mostly because kubrick didn't want to leave england and it was a lot cheaper to make that movie and

England. Sidney Pollack has talked about how jealous he was that Kubrick was able to make, you know, to shoot for a year and a half and have the budget only be about what it would take to film for 20 days somewhere in the United States or something like that. It sounds like during some of the shooting, it really was also a very minimal crew to or portions of it. Yeah. Yeah. Before we do the table setting, would you like to take a minute to talk about our wonderful Patreon? Yes, I would, in fact.

This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance is our $5 a month Patreon bonus podcast. It will allow you access to two bonus episodes of this Head Oscar Buzz per month, one of which will be us covering a film that we would love to cover on the main flagship, but we have so much integrity that we can't cover anything on the flagship show that has any kind of Oscar nominations whatsoever. So we'll cover on the Patreon a movie like The Mirror Has Two Faces, which only had two Oscar nominations, but in general still was an Oscar letdown. We've also covered movies like Australia with our friend Katie Rich.

we talked about the Lovely Bones, which was a patron voted entry. That was a very fun one. We talked about Pleasantville. We talked about nine. The other episode every month is a more format breaking, where we a little bit go off the regular format of our episodes. We'll talk about things like old awards shows, like the 1996 MTV Movie Awards. We'll do a discussion about the awards race, which is going to, which is up already now, yes, as we record this, and certainly as you listen to this, you can go listen to our thoughts on the current Oscar race, which is really, really heating up as we talk about this. We'll talk about, um, uh, Hollywood reporter actress roundtables or, you know, Chris going to Magic Mike Live. There's a whole lot of interesting little directions. I think we're going to take those excursion episodes. as we go ahead. So as you roll on into the new year,

if you want to give yourself the Christmas gift, the holiday gift that keeps on giving, $5 a month will get you a whole lot. Plus we have call-in episodes. We've got a whole ass hotline where people can call in and we're sort of posting little mini-response episodes during the week.

So you'll get all of that as well. You'll be able to vote in patron polls. And we've got a lot of... We should do another poll. We should. We should. We've got a lot of little ideas. We had a whole little brainstorming session the other day about what to bring in 2024. So there's really fun stuff. You'll want to get in on that. And it's a really fun time. The other thing that I find underrated is we don't really have forums and Twitter has proved to be an ever less ideal place to talk about things.

And, like, the comments on our patron posts. Almost as if Twitter is a platform that is bleeding subscribers. But I'm really enjoying reading the comments on our patron post. Everybody's got some really good little additional thoughts. And it's a fun and friendly place. And we are very proud of our Gary's for that. And we love hearing from you. Yes, exactly.

So join us, won't you? And sign up for this at Oscar Buzz. Turbio brilliance, you can go to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Fabulous. Yeah. Joe. Yeah. This week on Christmas.

Yeah. Who knows if anybody's actually listening on Christmas? May we be your distraction? Yeah, this is coming out on actual Christmas Day, huh? Oh, wow. There we go. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. If you need the distraction from Crazy Family, we're here for you. If we are going to play this for the whole family, like after gifts have been opened. You know what? Sit down with the whole family, kids, grandparents, all of them. All of them. Eyes wide shut. Why not?

I remember when this movie came out, I should say. I was not allowed to see the movie. I was too young. Did you ask to go see this movie and we're denied? Yes. Amazing. I love that. I probably would have been like that was amazing.

because I was like just discovering Cooper. I discovered Kubrick through his death, I should say. Sure. I was like, wait, who is this? Who is this guy? I should, I guess I should see these movies and watched a letterboxed 2001 on a 12-inch TV that had a VCR in it, in the little box unit. Yeah. Not the ideal way to see that movie.

I'm trying to think of like what my, what my Stanley Kubrick awareness was, certainly by that time, by the time Eyes White Shuck comes out in 99, I'd have already read The Shining, which means I would have watched The Shining, so I would have seen that. The Simpsons had done multiple Dr. Strangelove jokes, you know, so I was sort of aware of that. Plus, my dad really liked Dr. Strangelove, too. spaceballs did that 2001 joke where they went to plaid remember the one where the spaceship flies past them and it's whatever so like all the sort of like jokes but also i remember in junior high um full metal jacket had come out several years like a few years before full metal jacket comes out in 87 i'm in junior high around like 92 do-ish. But for whatever reason, a handful of the, like, cooler boys got really into quoting

Full Metal Jacket because they had watched it and they were like, yeah, which was like the whole thing. Imagine Teenage Boys misunderstanding that movie. So I was aware of that, but I didn't see Full Metal Jacket until maybe only even, like, within the last 10 years did I see Full Metal Jacket for the first time. I mean, my concept of full metal jacket when I was younger was basically the training first third of the movie, and then everything else was kind of wiped out of my brain. And even still, when I rewatch that movie, it's like, oh, I don't remember much of this. And metal jacket, which was, you know, 12 years before eyes wide shut, it was the last, you know, 12 year gap between movies, which is a huge part of the anticipation behind.

eyes wide shut. Yeah. And, like, eyes wide shut was kind of an Oscar disappointment. There's a ton of Vietnam movies, I think, even still in the culture, you know, it's... Oh, full metal jacket, you mean, was an Oscar disappointment. Yes, definitely. Yes, yes. It's just an adapted screenplay nominee.

Right. But, you know, I think even still today, it gets compared or, like, stacked alongside Platoon, because Platoon is best picture Oscar winner. I think that movie... was the year before it, yeah. Miles better movie than Platoon, even though... I've never seen Platoon, interestingly enough. At some point, I will.

It's a Best Picture Winner. I'm going to want to see it, but yeah. Right. It's a much better movie than Platoon, much better movie than, like, most of the Vietnam movies of that time. Yeah. So it's like, you know, Oscar kind of got sick of those movies a little bit.

Yeah. People saw that just generally as a... disappointment. I think it's safe to say it's one of the weakest Kubrick movies, with the exception of, like, I haven't seen some of the earlier ones, even though I know that they're like, on criterion and such, but I know Kubrick hated those movies, so I don't feel so compelled to watch, like, his first two features. I'd never seen Spartacus, but I was like pretty sure I had heard that Kubrick had directed it. And so that was my winning question to win the,

like, for all the Marbles' Trivial Pursuit game in high school. And it was easily one of my most proud accomplishments in high school. And for many reasons, it's one of the least interesting Kubrick movies. For many reasons, yeah. Because it's one of the least Kubrick Kubrick movies. Right. I mean, like, it kind of

set his methodology for his career because, like, that was not his movie. It was a studio movie. Yeah. You know, but, like, that doing that movie probably helped him get Lolita made, but then Lolita is also

a very informative movie for the rest of his career and I think informative for eyes wide shut as well because of the limitations dealing with such controversial material you know when they made that movie it's kind of it's so wild that it kind of exists um even though it's not the closest adaptation you've ever seen in your life um yeah so yeah yeah listeners we're here talking about Stanley Kubrick and eyes Wide shut, written and directed by the master, Mr. Kubrick. Also written by Frederick Raphael, who would later go on to write a heavily, what would you say, you know, criticized and given a certain lack of authenticity memoir about his experience working with Kubrick that, you know, many people said was bullshit.

All based on the novella, Trom Novell by Arthur Schnitzler, which is what translates to dream story, I believe. Sure. That fits. What Ice White Shut is starring Mr. Thomas Cruz, Ms. Nicole Kidman, Sidney Pollock, Todd Field, we'll get into it. How do you pronounce Radezzerberchia's name? I think it's... My apology? Serbedgia?

Yes. Uh, you know, the guy who played a lot of, like, Russian spies and movies in the 90s. He looks like a vampire, yes, yes. He looks like he should be wearing a floor length, um, coat made of actual bear skin that he killed with his bare hands, but also... He always looks like he was the hottest vampire 15 years ago. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Vanessa Shaw, Lili Sobieski, Marie Richardson, horny Hungarian, Sky DeMont, Horny Allen coming.

Horny Allen coming is my favorite, yeah. And the voice of Kate Blanchett. Okay, remind me which masked woman Kate Blanchett is voicing. The one who's like, You have to get out of here. The first one. The one who saves his life.

It wasn't that Australian of an accent. No, she puts on an American dialect for it. Willikers, mister. You gotta get out of here. You have to get out of here. You're in danger. The first one who comes. up to him and yeah.

Can't imagine, no, it's not, it's, it's, it's all her. I realize you can't, when she takes off her underwear, it seems like maybe this is a different woman, no, it's her. No, but the one, wait, the one who volunteers to, volunteers his tribute. Oh, the volunteer is, that's not the actual woman from the first scene where she overdoses, even though that's that character? No, that character, that's not her. It's that character.

But Kate Blanchett voices her Gotcha, okay Did not catch that This only recently, like semi-recently came out Or maybe it was known And then we completely forgot about it And never talked about it for 15 years. Yeah

The movie opened wide, Giant Neon Sign L-O-L. Yeah July 16th, 1999. Summer movie season. This movie opened the same weekend as Muppets in Space. Had American Pie already opened by this point?

Was American Pie already like in theaters? I think no. Could you see the wide spectrum of American sexuality in one day and see American Pie and Eyes White Shed? Janet Bazelin in her review of this movie calls it the Summer of the Dirty Joke. Let me pull up this box office again. I just remembered that Muppets in Space opened the same weekend, because I was like, well, you know, kind of the same movie.

I've never seen Muppets in space. You know what? Those Muppets, they sure were in space. Way to do that space. But, I mean, everyone is an alien and a sock puppet in this movie. Soppocket. Can't even tell a joke without ruining it. Slop bucket.

Yes, American Pie was number two at the box office, the weekend that this opened at number one. Yeah. And then plummeted. That is a, that is a, that's a weekend right there. You know, I mean, Maslin calls it the summer of the dirty joke. I almost feel like eyes wide shut is uniquely unprepared to open in this market to this audience because like this does feel somewhat like a resetting of summer movie season. Because summer movie, like, you know, ever since Jaws, you know, summer movies were a thing and like summer blockbusters were whatever.

But this feels like a unique IP summer, partly because of Star Wars episode one. But you also have things like The Spy Who Shagged Me, South Park, you know, American Pie. Really kind of investing audiences in, you know, known property. Oh, I see known property stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. well and before that even you had sort of the established will smith well will smith had another had another one wild west which was reexisting IP and also a bomb but well not a bomb because that movie made like a hundred million dollars it was just a it was a horrible movie but here's the hill i'm going to die on

with wild wild west better title song than men and black i agree okay i agree we as a culture all have to agree. Gary's, if you do not agree, I'm sorry, you've been voted off the island. Speaking of our, you mentioned our call-ins when talking about our Patreon. How shocking is it to you that we have not gotten any survivor questions? Yeah, that is surprising. Considering how often we detour. Do the Gary's not watch Survivor? I imagine some of them do. It's gotten so the popularity has really rebounded. We, we, we, we do. We, We are... Survivor, Gary's get at us. Anyway, we're talking about Eyes Wide Shed.

Not Survivor. We're recording this right before the finale. Eyes Wide Shut is in its own way, a game of Survivor. Survivor is the ultimate Fidelio party. No. I can't go down that road. I can't go down that road. Not with Austin and Jake on my mind.

I can't. I can't go down that road. Oh, then we should just, you know, take the other avenue. fork in the road. Joe, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description of eyes wide shut? As I look at the dense paragraphs that I prepared in front of me, no, but we'll give it a go. You know, Stanley Kubrick was not limited to 60 seconds either, so I think it's fine. Yeah, here's my 100 takes worth of my eyes wide shut plot description. What if this entire episode was 100 takes of you giving a 60-second plot description of this movie.

I would also get divorced soon after because I would get married just to get divorced, just to have a major life breakdown. Forced from Riala? Yeah, yes. Divorced from my mind. I would, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Yes, yeah. All right, your 60-second plot description of Eyes Wide

Shut starts now. We open on Nicole Kidman's butt. We never see Tom Cruise's. Why? Because, cowardice. Anyway, Tom and Nicole, amid the dying embers of their marriage, play Bill and Alice Harford, a doctor in his wife who tend a fancy Christmas party thrown by Victor of wealthy friend of theirs. At the party, Alice flirts with a Hungarian playboy while Bill helps Victor with a naked woman he was having sex with in his bathroom, who's overdosed.

The next night after getting stoned, Alice begins to prod at Bill about whether other women want to fuck him. And she gets really pissed when he rejects the idea of being a jealous husband because she'd never cheat on him to retaliate. Alice tells a story of a hot young naval officer from their vacation to Cape Cod, who she fantasized about fucking and running away with this makes Bill lose his mind and go off on an odyssey through fake New York, sometimes trying to have an affair, but mostly just wishing he wanted to have an affair. He finds out from his piano playing friend Todd Field about this secret sex party with the password Fidelio and Bill goes there

in a taxi and scams his way into the party which is full of people in rooms and Venetian masks holding rituals with naked women before breaking out into an orgy. Bill, despite his mask is singled out easily and seems like they're going to either kill him or run a train on him, but this masked lady volunteers to take his place and he leaves. The next day he traces his steps to try and piece together

what happened the night before, ultimately arriving at Victor's Place, who tells him it was all mostly theater, but also to cut it out with the questions already. And by this point, Bill is so traumatized by all this creepy sexuality that he breaks down in tears with Alice and tells her everything. The next day, Alice is like, well, now that we've gotten that out of her system, we can move on and stay married, but first we really got to fuck.

13 seconds over. What a great job. Well done. I didn't stumble over my words, so that helps a lot. I'm not a person who has very good vocal training. I don't do any of those. Midwest Mushmouth. Trip of the tongue and past the lips or whatever, all those little vocal mouth exercise.

sizes. You also kind of, you know, reduced all of his, like, dark soul of the night. I knew I couldn't go into episodes, which it's like... I knew I couldn't go into every single one of, like, the costume shop and Alan coming and, and, you know, because like that way ends in a 12 minute plot description. So you sort of have to sort of like hand wave your way through that, but like, we'll definitely get into all of that stuff in our discussion because all of those things. The episodic nature of this movie is maybe my favorite thing about it, and I like all these little vignettes.

I do find myself still, and maybe this is by design, I guess, mostly dissatisfied by all of the Fidelio stuff. And I find it to be, okay, let's have this conversation now. I find this movie to be heterosexual to its detriment. I was going to say, I mean, like, I don't think it's to its detriment. I think this is a deeply heterosexual movie. It's the most heterosexual movie. It's the most heterosexual movie. That is absolutely correct.

A little bit of gay perspective would have gone a long way for the characters in this movie, but also for the people who wrote and directed this movie. I mean, like, I think a little bit of, like, generational perspective could go a long way because I watched this movie and I'm like, if it wasn't so well made, if the performances weren't so strong, if the craft of it wasn't so. entrancing. I know I sound like a pull-quote horror right here, but if it wasn't for that

and like this wasn't like so precise. Yeah. I would almost think it's Passé. This movie is 30 years after Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice. Yes. Which like, don't let me go off on a tangent about that movie. You know I love that movie. Yeah. That it's just like, we're still here. We're still here.

And to Kubrick's defense, I guess, they haven't. They haven't. Yes. I do think that this movie has an interesting relationship to pornography and, like, the proliferation of pornography. Well, sex work in general. Sex work in general, I would say. Sure, sure, sure, sure. But in relation to like, where were we at Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice?

And where are we at with eyes wide shut, you know, terms of heterosexual, you know, nuclear unit sexuality and specifically male sexuality. Because maybe it does say that for heterosexual women, things have evolved because, you know, Nicole Kidman's character, she is able to say, I had this just like total fugue state of sexual fantasy where I couldn't get this guy off my mind. And of course, nothing happened. But like, She was so horny for this guy She saw in passing and couldn't forget about it And she's able to talk about it

But for him It's just like You look at the presentations of sexuality in this movie And it's so I would argue unerotic And like if there's eroticism To this movie It's like

Scary eroticism Like Yeah I can't imagine being very turned on by this movie And like even the parts of the movie that I do think are parts where we are supposed to feel like there is an erotic charge, them making out in front of the mirror, or when he goes and sees Vanessa Shaw's roommate the next day, and they come very close to making out before she's like, sit down, I need to tell you about Vanessa Shaw's diagnosis. But I think that's at least meant to depict an erotic charge in that, and whether it's Tom Cruise's complete lack of ability to sell that kind of vibe on a screen or whether like too much has happened in the movie by that point that just like we, our boners have gone bye, bye forever. It doesn't

It just It's hard No pun intended To To really get into That kind of a vibe With the movie by that point You know what I mean?

Which is why I think Kidman's whole monologue About how she got horny for this guy While being very sexy Is also so dismantling For the movie Because it feels like actual horniness and like I also say that you know the the punchline of the movie which is so funny

but also like the idea of like we're going to go fuck later is way hotter than any of this very sterile overt sexuality which is why I bring up like the pornography angle to this movie because like the Fidelio sequence even censored or unscensurate. which, like, I don't really think the censored version is all that available now. I watched it last night. It's on Apple movies. That's the Apple version? The one where they just have people standing in front of everyone fucking. Yes. Oh, okay. I was not happy about it.

Oh, okay. Not that I, like, needed to see, like, I can watch. No, but it's for, we'll talk about the same. Yeah, it's annoying to me that that's the version that's available when you rent it online. Why is that on Apple? That's wild. I don't know. I wonder if they just have a scan of the VHS. or something, because I think the VHS was the censored version, if I remember correctly. But the thing about the Fidelio sequence is, like, it's not sexy.

It's just like, here's a naked lady. And is that supposed to be enough for this character? I mean, yeah. My thing, though, about the heterosexuality of it all, I can't even say it. I'm so opposed to it. I can't even say it, Chris. No, but, like, it's, part of it is that the whole movie is predicated on the idea that this heterosexual man, this incredibly attractive, like, canonically attractive, they talk about it so much in the movie, about he's like, this incredibly handsome doctor is so completely thrown, not by the idea that his wife had an affair or a one-night stand or anything, but that his wife fantasized one-tized one time. time about a man. And it's not even, it's funny because she mentions that she fantasized about

having sex with him and leaving her family. But you can tell the thing that bothers him is that she fantasized about having sex with him because the nightmarish, weird blue tinted visions that he has are not of her leaving him, but are of her being actually like pleasureed by this man. So like that's the part that throws him. The idea of his wife having a fantasy about another man so throws him that like for two solid days, he loses his goddamn mom. and nearly gets himself killed by a secret society of either like masters of the universe who will kill to protect their secrets or really overinvested theater people who are just like putting on a little panto of of you know sexuality or whatever either one of the

he saw a sleep no more when it was still in workshop it was that one guy has a sleep no more sleep no more mask um yeah he saw the a very early view of sleep no more that was his his harrowing event. He loved sleep no more, but when it was at the public. Right. But it's also the fact that like, so that's an incredibly heterosexual perspective, but it's also like pervasive throughout this movie, this idea of sex as a taboo and of sex as a thing that is inherently sort of, especially like anonymous sex is something that is a, a, a distraction from emotion or a a symptom of a sort of like psychological deficiency or like there's just an incredibly limited and straight view of like a muse he's chasing like it's a

wisp in the air that you that that the idea of sex even like the most like basic sex for pleasure in this movie is supposed to be about power displays or a about, you know what I mean? Just like, it's the idea that only at the very end does she introduce this idea, maybe this is what is intentional then. Only by the end does she introduce this idea of sex for pleasure. And even that is more just like, and now we need to have sex to prove that we're both beyond, you know, this entire ordeal that we've sort of put each other through.

And it's so, it's so, wait, it's just so, it's not strange to me because obviously like this is not a surprise that... Are you telling me this movie is normal? Are you telling me that this movie is not strange? I know. But it's not strange that this would be the straight perspective on this kind of thing, especially even in like the 90s. But like the Clinton era was like the way we as sort of like mainstream society viewed sex

was a very fraught time. But Kubrick, who you have this expectation of, who is a, if not more forward thinker, but is at least, like, you know, he's, he's, you know, an artist. This is the last movie he's ever made. So, like, he's an artist who's, you know, been around a while. And you would, it's a surprisingly. He'd wanted to make this movie a long time. It's a surprisingly limited take on sex, is what I will say.

I would strongly argue that the movie agrees with you and that this whole, whole odyssey that he goes on is absolutely ridiculous and futile and is emblematic of what is useless about heterosexual male sexuality. I would argue that the movie is kind of about that, intentionally so. You know, I mean, every kind of episode of this movie, if we're calling them that, is all about dismantling some different type of nuance in this man's sexual hangups or sexual obsession that, I mean, it's also a movie that kind of ends on a joke. Right.

So I don't really see it as on his side or taking him all that seriously, even though the movie thinks it's talking about something serious. But I still feel like the lesson. if it's trying to impart any lessons, there is still a kind of accepted view of of, you know, this world of anonymous sex. Like, he wanders into a sex party and it's so unerotic and yada, yada, yada,

but like, it never seems to consider, I don't know, I'm not going to turn this whole thing into, like, justice for sex party. Stanley Kubrick, like, you know, pasting that on his gravestone or something like that. But yeah, like, there's, there's, there are blinkers to, this movie, because this movie is so focused on a straight view of sexuality, I think any time that it tries to make a claim towards a more evolved view of sexuality, it doesn't maybe know just how blinkered it remains. where I think this movie is trying, this movie knows that it knows more than Cruz. This movie knows that it's making fun of him and that it is, you know, that he ultimately is the person who needs to be taught a thing or two and needs to, like, learn a thing or two or whatever, right? And I think it maybe bothers me a little bit that Kubrick or the writer or sort of like the film as a sort of like, you know, external construct, thinks,

that it's more evolved that like by placing itself as in opposition to the masculine mind yeah that like you're not you're not quite as outside of this as you think you are a little bit do you know what i mean that like yeah i get what you're saying i get what you're saying and i i hear you and i see you you don't just want it to unpack his brain you want an alternative presented i want a little bit of an acknowledgement of the fact that even, like, for as much as he steps outside of the realm of normal society, by going to this, you know, scary sex mansion or whatever, that even beyond that there exists a world that is like even less sort of bottled up about sexuality, that that, that a sex party doesn't have to be like a druid ritual sacrifice. Do you know what I mean?

Or visiting a sex worker. Or visiting a sex worker doesn't have to be this like fraught, life-changing, whatever, or like any number of these things. You know what I mean? Well, and like, I think he's talking about a male sexuality that thinks that all of that is some type of, you know, you know, trophy, basically. But like I hear you in saying that it doesn't offer anything else. And I don't know if the actual N-C... And the only queer perspective in this movie is, like, love-strivate. Ruck Allen coming, who is, like, very, like, he's, like, he's so, he's such a weird, like, innocent in the way that he flirts with, with Cruz that I almost feel like, give that man, like, a little bit of adult sexuality and just have him, like, flirt with him like a grown-up, and, like, maybe that solves a little bit of my problem.

It feels like the first actual flirtation in the movie. Yeah. Which, yeah. The way Vanessa Shaw approaches him is so funny to me. Where she's just like... In her like Muckluck and Pan Am uniform. Right. It does look like she's just stepped off of the runway somewhere, modeling like the new line for like...

Ball winter Pan Am collection. Yeah, like United Airlines, Winter Sheik or like Alaska Airlines. That's their new stewardess uniform or something. Yeah. Fashion Week. Right. But it's just like, I guess that's like, and I, nothing that happens in this movie feels like is out of the real world. Anyway, so maybe I'm bringing a little bit too much into, but just like...

The idea that, like, people are just, like, walking off of the street and, like, propositioning him for sex is... Well, it's a dream. It's a dream. I know. It's a dream. How much of this is real? How much of this is perception? How much of this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. But even, like, the Vanessa Shaw costuming, it's like, it's his idea of what a sex worker looks like. She looks like a flight attendant for the Jetsons in... Yeah. Soviet Russia. Yeah. Like, that's what a... It does make me laugh, speaking of Todd Field and Kate Blanchett,

that people got so mad at even the slightest suggestion that Tar might have a dream-life, dream logic, dream logic aspect to it. That was just... And yet people are very, very accepting of this read-on eyes wide shut that, like, the whole thing could be a dream. Well, I don't know. People... There were... There was a dumb contingent towards... tar where it's just like you don't realize that this is a the movie is intentionally from a very

limited perspective what are you talking like that's what the movie is like i thought it was an interesting little line of discussion i don't mean to say that that's the definitive aspect but like i don't understand the like militant resistance to even talking about it along those lines like people were really really like upset that one person was like maybe tar is a dream at the end we don't know and like people like no shut up and i'm like okay like well I also think this, like, kind, there were a lot of critics, Ebert included, who say that the ending of the movie felt kind of regressive and easy, and like, they're just standing in the middle of F.A.O. Schwartz,

talking about dreams and dreams and dreams and dreams, and we're going to be together and blah, blah, blah, blah. While their child gets abducted by the sticky bandits or whatever. Exactly. That kid is gone. That child, focus on your kid. Like, they're horrible parents. Benjamin Button-looking-ass daughter. She looks like El Fanning and Benjamin Button. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That kid has swallowed a Kinex.

There's a giant Kinex display on her own. There is a Lego lodged in her throat and nobody is saving her. That's funny. Can I also... She's swan diving off the balcony into a display of 700 teddy bears. I love the magic. I don't think that the way this movie ends. I, the way that it does end, I think, uh, with, you know, exacerbates the, what am I trying to say?

I think, I think the ending of this movie makes, is not going to dissuade you from having the perspective you have on the movie. I like the ending. I like the way it ends. I actually like, I'm, I'm happy with that. I want, before we get off of this last two things. Because there are, I say that Alan Cumming is the only bit of queerness in the movie. There are three bits of queerness in the movie. The people dancing at the sex party, the two men dancing at the sex party, and also two women dance at the sex party.

We're like, who feel very tokenized to me, but whatever. Get your thing. Alan Cumming. Well, that's how gay people have sex. We just dance. The depiction of the homophobes in this movie is so agro and out of control that I'm just like. Well, it's Christmas time, Joe. It's during Santa Con.

that's fair they were all going to like the costume shop to pick up their santa costumes they were going to the rainbow costume shop um uh but it's and like homophobia exists to this day i too have been called a faggot out on the street like it happens but like this particular vision of this where they're just like you know uh hip check this guy into a car and then spend a full two minutes out of their only life that god is going to give them like finding eight billion ways to just be like exit and no entrance man like friend of dorothy i got dumps bigger than you first of all whichever one of them calls him a friend of dorothy that man is homosexual i'm saying it does not know what that i'm saying they find like eight billion different ways to just be like all right mary and all this sort of stuff and it's like good lord work queen yeah essentially they're like halfway they're halfway to being the library challenge in track race, where it's just like those cliffhangers, please, like that kind of thing. That's very, but again, it just sort of like adds to the picture of like it really is the most heterosexual movie I have ever seen in my entire life.

Truly. Fidelio, let me in. I want to talk about this year's, this week's update for the Vulture Movie Fantasy League. Do I have the right password? You're supposed to be like... Me December, you are in grave danger. Okay, do we actually think that's the case? I think May December is in danger of not getting major nominations until it gets them.

I fooled me a million times on having my hopes for a Todd Haynes film getting... You are... I've never seen you this braced for disaster as you are. You're bracing for Barbie snobber. to kick in. Bracing for Barbie Samarie, bracing for Todd Haynes. You are.

You're bracing for all of it. This sink is braced this year, and the sink is your worries about the Oscars. So the big update for the Vulture League this week is the Oscar shortlists were released in several categories, including documentary feature,

international feature, makeup and hairstyling, original score, original song, all the short films, which doesn't, don't apply to this. Although, I will say, if we had included, like, the Almodivar as a short film in our fantasy league, it would have a bunch of points by now. A sound, sound and visual effects. Whenever that short comes up in conversation, I just like, nobody wants to talk about that they didn't like it. Homer Simpson back into... Nobody wants to talk about that they didn't like it.

Nobody... It's the worst thing he's ever made. I've not talked to a single person who's liked it, so... I mean, like, I guess... Yeah. It's so weird to me that it's this short that advances, and it wasn't the Tilda Swinton one, which is so much better.

Well, yeah, there you go. Which of the Wes Anderson's made it into live action short? The longest one, the wonderful story of Henry... Henry Sugar. Yeah. Okay. I hope he gets it. I hope he gets nominated for that.

It's not my favorite of the four, and it... I still haven't seen any of them, but that'll be a... So weird that his Oscar is a short Oscar. Did he win for screenplay for Grand Budapest? He did not, right? Or maybe he did. No, I don't think he's ever won for screenplay? I don't think so.

It would have been boyhood otherwise, so I think he did win that. No, in 2014, it was Birdman won... original. Oh. And what would have one adapted? Oh, imitation game. Imitation game and Birdman were the screenplay winners thing. Right, right.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. It'll be weird if his Oscars for a short film. It will be, but honestly, he's a quirky filmmaker. Give him a quirky Oscar. I'm fine with that. It's going to have Netflix money behind it, too. Yeah, yeah.

So if you're talking about the big winners, points-wise, from the short lists, A lot of them were the ones you would imagine. Barbie got five, three of them in original song. Everything was worth five points. So 25 points to Barbie for that. Killers of the Flower and Moon got four. A bunch of movies got three. Zone of Interest got three.

Napoleon. Oppenheimer, poor things. Color purple. Spider-Man across the Spider-verse. All got three. Do you wonder if Paulian is the widows of this year's shortlists where it shows up on a bunch of shortlists and convinces people, it will get an Oscar nomination somewhere.

I think it's more likely that Napoleon will versus widows, but I could see Napoleon getting none of those. I think Napoleon is getting one Oscar nomination, whether that comes from a sound or what were the three it showed up in on the shortlist? If I had to put my money down saying Napoleon will get one of those nominations, I would say visual effects. Because visual effects is so we? So let's look at visual effects now that you mentioned that. Okay, so the shortlist is The Creator, Godzilla minus one, Guardians of the Galaxy

Volume 3, Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, Mission Impossible, Dead Reckoning Part 1, Napoleon, Poor Things, Rebel Moon, Society of the Snow, Spider-Man Across the Spider-verse. So just in terms of like which of these movies have the sheen of success to them, I think that helps a lot. So in those ones you're looking at Poor Things Society of the Snow We'll talk about Society of the Snow in a second

Across the Spiderverse Um Honestly Guardians 3 because it's like the one good Marvel piece of news all year Was that movie? Which surprisingly did not make the makeup

shortlist after the first two guardians were fully nominated for makeup. Yeah. Makeup was odd this year because they also didn't shortlist Barbie. And, like, the whole character drew on her fucking face. Like, that's a whole, like, makeup as character.

Well, let's make up and hairstiling, too. Like, all of those Barbies were in wigs, you know. Yeah. So, and I think Godzilla minus one has the air of success right now, too. I hope it happened. Because, you know, that's, we can keep our fingers crossed because that would be a really cool nomination. I had a lot of fun at that movie. I think it would deserve it.

It would really deserve it. and maybe deserve to win in this category. I haven't seen The Creator yet. That's the one when we did our catch-up. Everyone was like, The Creator's going to win. The Creator's going to win, and we didn't even mention The Creator. Well, because The Creator was such a bomb at the box office. Imagine forgetting the movie The Creator.

Allison Wilmore really liked it, and I've wanted to see it just on that recommendation alone. I'm going to catch up to it. It is on Hulu now. I will say, speaking on Godzilla Minus 1 and Society of the Snow, in my defense, I thought Society of the Snow was going to go to next year. And Godzilla minus one was just not on my radar. So neither one of those two movies were draftable in the Fantasy League. So those end up getting nominations. Blame me. At least, at least Alquite on the Western Front was in the Fantasy League last year, even though it was only priced for like a couple of dollars because I did not see

it coming. I will say here and now, on the record, on this podcast. Yes. If Rebel Moon and Indiana Jones are not nominated for visual effects. I don't think they will be. I am willing to be a completest again this year because Free Guy broke me. I was like, not doing it. I can't do it.

Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny is not the kind of movie to break a vow on. Like, it's fine. It's not the worst thing I've ever seen. Like, honest to God. I'm not watching Rebel Moon, period.

I might just out of, like, pure curiosity, but, like, I am also, like, I tend to be sci-fi curious in that way where it's just like a sci-fi, like, a sci-fi, like, wannabe Star Wars sort of space epic, I'm at least curious to see it, so. I imagine, if I were to guess visual effects nominees from this five right now, I think this is kind of hard. I would guess poor things, Godzilla, Guardians 3 The Creator And I want to see Society of the Snow So I know what kind of visual effects are in there But

Maybe Spider-Man Either Spider-Man or Society of the Snow For Fifth is what I would say The other Spider-verse movie Was shortlisted in this category And didn't get nominated So I'm not I'm not so bullish on that happening

Though Yeah I mean, Cubo and the Two Strings was, you know, it did use a lot of computer animation on top of stop motion, which is how I think it got in there. But, like, that is an interesting precedent. I, the thing about visual effects is they used to do those presentations where it's like all of the shortlisted. Would like showcase their wares? Would do like a showcase. And it was apparently like semi-public that like people could just go to it.

but like you had to know it was happening and it wasn't super advertised or anything. Interesting. And, you know, when you have these odd nominations that show up like, what was it, Deepwater Horizon or something? Sure, yeah. That for the average person seems like a head scratcher,

you go and you look at the reporting of those presentations and it's like, this team gave a really incredible presentation, they are totally a sleeper for a nomination, and then they happen. Those aren't public anymore, and I think the way they do the presentation has somewhat changed, probably because of the Zoom of it all. Sure. I don't know if they're actual in-person presentations anymore, but I know that the average person can't just go to them anymore. But that, I think, would be especially useful this year because I do think this is a really hard category. It's a really hard category to peg. It's totally true.

I would say the creator, Napoleon, I haven't seen poor things yet, but if you have confidence on it, I'll go with that. And I would say society of us know. It's the only one of these movies that's going to be a Best Picture nominee. So I feel like that momentum will carry it, even though it's not like big action visual effects. But like the movie is the the surreality of that movie, I think will have enough opportunities. It's not like a ton of like, you know, what you would normally think of as like nominating. VFX and this kind of stuff, but... My fifth slot would go to Indiana Jones. It's possible. Indiana Jones movies tend to get nominated, but they were all previously to this. They were all Spielberg movies, so...

I want to talk about Society of the Snow. I did think it was going to go to 2024 for some reason, because it was such a late, like, breaker for Netflix. It was the Venice Closer, too, so it's not... That made it seem like it was not feel? Yes, yes. It gets shortlisted four times,

and already the momentum for this, I think, had been building up a little bit in terms of like, oh, this is going to maybe be a thing. It was Spain's selection for international feature. It did make the shortlist for international feature. I do feel like it's got some momentum there. International feature is interesting, because the one that's been winning all the critics prizes

is anatomy of a fall, and that is not available. on this list. She's submitted the Taste of Things, which I think still has a really great chance at winning. Taste of Things is Francis. So, like, the ones that jump out on this list to me, and you've seen all of these movies. So you are a great... Yes, I've seen all 15 of the shortlisted films. I have a piece that is currently not out, but will be coming out with The Daily Beast.

Yes. When that piece comes out, Gary's run, don't walk. I'm very excited for that to come out. But anyway, so you're a good piece. person to talk to my sense of what is most likely here. Zone of interest, taste of things, fallen leaves, I feel like those three are like pretty solid, and then some sort of mish-mash of society of the snow, perfect days, Yo Capitano from Italy

Maybe four daughters Doing the documentary and international double-feetch thing That's not the movie that I would have predicted to That and the Ukraine Doc 20 Days in Maripole Both of them are shortlisted there I would have expected The Mother of All Lies To show up in both from Morocco Maybe that's just because I thought it was a much better movie

than those movies? That one is shortlisted in international, but not in documentary. No, it's shortlisted in documentary, not international. I'm looking at it as shortlisted international. Oh, okay. Wait, maybe I just, maybe I was wrong. Yes, correct. It's international, not documentary. Never mind. Yeah.

So I know you are a big cheerleader for Mexico's entry, which is Totem. Do you think that has a good, do you think it's going to be nominated? um if they watch it and what is it about uh it's it's a family drama told through you could kind of say multiple perspectives the movie i've kind of been comparing it to is rachel getting married oh well it's a family drama where centered somewhat around uh one of the young girls in the family her father is uh terminally ill and they are throwing a basically life celebration for him, the best of this lineup, my favorite in this entire lineup. You have also been telling me for a year that I need to watch Iceland's Godland, because that's going to be nominated? As soon as I saw Iceland submitted that. I saw that back in Toronto in 2022.

I remember. That was the movie of the 2022 can that I kept seeing people be like, why wasn't this in Maine competition? Why wasn't this in Maine competition? Ever since I saw that they submitted it, I was like, at the bare minimum, it's making the short list. And I think it's a sleeper to get nominated. Okay.

So if you had to pick five as a guess right now. I would say the taste of things. Teachers Lounge, Godland, and how many do I have left? Two more. Perfect days and society of the snow. So I am somewhat predicting a zone of indifference. A zone of interest snub. That's interesting.

Zone of interest getting a best picture nomination but not international feature would be funny. I don't think out. Showing up in score and sound here, I think shows a certain amount of strength. But it just feels like that movie is going to disappoint in some way. I don't think that's out of the question. Like the idea of it getting a best picture nomination but not international feature feels like, feels plausible in a way. that, like, more plausible. I also want to note that Bhutan is shortlisted again after they had a yak-in-the-classroom.

So don't underestimate the monk in the gun in that regard. That is a movie that I do think has the potential because it does really kind of appeal to Academy Taste. As does the Armenian movie, Americazzi, it is so close to life as beautiful that I was like, we've seen this movie. well okay so maybe that transitions into my last question before we move on to other categories um what's the one movie from this list of international features that if it does get nominated you're going to be like god damn it what's the booger i don't think fallen leaves is a booger i think it's fine but i the outright love for it really does escape me i think everybody that's voting on this category will see it because it's 80 minutes long maybe that makes people feel like it's a little slighter. I mean, Americotsie is the absolute worst of them. There's a performance in Monk in the Gun that I do think is one of the worst performances, but by a non-actor.

Is it by a yak? No, it's by a white guy who wants to buy, you know, war guns. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, so those two and the Promised Land are my least favorite of the category. Okay. Society of the Snow also shortlisted in makeup and hairstyling, original score, and we said visual effects already. So let's talk about makeup and hairstyling. We've got Bo as Afraid, Ferrari, Golda.

Golda is sitting right there waiting to get a nomination that is going to make me have to see one more movie I haven't seen. I'm going to have to go and see Golda. Killers of the Flower Moon, Last Voyage of the Demeter, which. I haven't seen Last Voyage of Demeter yet, but I do kind of want to, so I'm... Dracula, Boten film. Maestro, Napoleon,

Oppenheimer, Poor Things, and then, as I said, Society of the Snow. I do think the Colda's going to get nominated. It's very... Goulda, Meestro, Oppenheimer, poor things, and society of the snow. What's that? It's going to be Golda, Meestro,

Oppenheimer, Poor Things, and Society of the Snow. That is a confident statement right there. I have no reason to doubt you, but... If one of them falls out, it's probably Ferrari. What are we... Oh, it's old age... It's old age makeup on Oppenheimer.

Like, yeah, that's a good point. Bow's afraid, frankly, a movie I don't like, but would deserve a nomination here, but it won't happen. It absolutely does. I mean, it is also old age makeup, but...

Yeah. It's a lot of... A lot of types of makeup on a lot of types of things, including, like, wound makeup. All right. What else did we say? Original score for another possibility for Society of the Snow. They didn't list, once again, they don't list the composers, so they are not sitting here in front of me.

The color purple showing up is fascinating that it was eligible, considering it's an existing song score from a Broadway musical. So there must be enough original score there made just for the movie. You talk about your bracing for Barbie Snobbery and Todd. Haynes disappointment. I am embracing for the bottom to fall out of this color purple thing, because every, it's not like I haven't heard any good things about it, but like there's so much bad buzz from people I know who have seen it already, and I know like a lot of people who have seen it already. I'm one of those psychos who looks at like how things have sold locally. Yeah. I mean, color purple is already selling.

out shows on Christmas Day. But I just mean, like, qualitatively. So do you feel like if it makes enough money that it's going to, that that success will help buoy it past maybe middling rating? Not showing up for AFI, not getting a best musical nomination at the Globes. Right. I mean, I kind of what's going on with this movie? I do.

I mean, I guess the history is not really for the late breaking movie that does show up in an Oscar Best Picture 10 to be like a box office success. Yeah. You know, it's more something international, you know, that ran a smart campaign usually by Sony's, Sony Classics. Right, right. That's why I think the Teacher's Lounge is getting nominated because like all of the Sony Classics initiative and effort is going to be behind getting that movie nominated.

Yeah. I think they also have Sheda, which is the Australian entry and I think is a much better movie than the teacher's lounge. Sadly, that was not shortlisted. So the ones we've seen show up in a lot of these precursors for score. Robbie Robertson for Killers of the Flower Moon. Mika Levi for... Zone of interest.

The zone of interest. Oppenheimer, of course, is very sort of score-forward in that way. I don't know. if, I mean, Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny is John Williams. We've all gone broke underestimating John Williams before, so I would advise against it. Something like the holdovers feels like it could show up here, though. Or, um, American has been in the holdovers showing up there. It's like, that's, I think, definitely a sign that there's, those will show up in best picture. Oh, definitely. I think Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse has shown up in a lot of

precursors for score. I think that's a definite possibility. That campaign is really galvanized behind the music in the movie. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Really hoping that Boy and the Heron gets nominated here. I'm not holding out hope, but... Boy in the Heron... I would love to see it. I think is doing well. I think I see good things for it. You know what I mean? I see positives. I'm just going to pour a couple out here for um the scores for asteroid city and the killer both of which and monster like and monster monster monster monster was rioichi sacamoto's final score before passing away um and it's the best thing about the movie yeah um all right we're already going long i didn't think it would be

shortlisted but should have been we're already going long and we haven't hit the most important category which is original song yeah okay so by the rules diane warren's getting nominated again Diane Warren is the songwriter for the song from Flaming Hot, the story of the invention of Flaming Hot Cheetos, for a song called The Fire Inside. I cannot wait to listen to this song. But other notes from this, there are two shortlisted movies from the movie Flora and Son, which is available on Apple TV Plus. That's the new John Carney movie starring. Is it Eve Hewson, who's Bono's daughter? I believe so. And Joseph Gordon-Levitt. of it, yeah. John Carney movies get nominated in this category, unless you're the best, one of them, which is the best song, at least, I think, which is from Sing Street, did not like it. Three from Barbie, the three that we have mentioned, Dance the Night, I'm Just Ken, and What Was I Made for,

two from the Color Purple, which once again, you know, who knows what's going to happen, where that's going to shake out. one for American Symphony. We should say the Netflix documentary, American Symphony, the John Batiste documentary, got shortlisted a bunch of times, once in score, once in song here. I think that's, and once in documentary feature. It's going to win documentary. Yeah, I think that's people have been saying that. I don't care for the movie, but it's going to win.

Asteroid City does get shortlisted here, although I wouldn't expect it to get a nomination for a year. Rightful winner. What else? Hunger Games is on here. Killers of the Flower Moon. has a song shortlisted here that I would keep an eye on, I would say. I think every once in a while you get that, like, you know, not poppy. Like, it's not a song that would probably exist on its own.

You know what I mean? A song that is, like, very, very dependent on the film and yet would get nominated. Lenny Kravitz is going to get nominated for Rustin, too. I was just about to say, I'm keeping a wary eye on Lenny Kravitz's song from Rustin. So... Nothing to, the craziest one on there is the fire inside from Flaming Hot. That's the one movie that jumps out to you. And like, the song shortlist used to be Chaka Block with like weirdo documentaries you've

never heard from, some sort of Jay Ralph song from a, from something. It helps that there's multiple movies taking up multiple slots. It does. But this is the most like mainstreamy original song shortlist in a while that really is only Diane Warren that is holding it up for a movie that you're like, really? So it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. The craziest version of this lineup is like, Flaming Hot, Flaming Hot, two Flora and Sons, a, you know, A Hunger Games, and like one Barbie. You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. Yeah, past lives. Yeah,

I would rule out the chance that there is just one Barbie song nominated. I wouldn't either, Yeah. We know that only two can be. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, you won't get all three, but you'll get either one or two. I would say I'd be shocked if it was none, but stranger things have happened. Okay.

Back to the orgy. Okay. Yes, we've talked about this long enough. Enjoy your holiday break. We'll be back with more about the Vulture Fantasy League in the new year. Back to your org. Congratulations to Theresa May December for leading to Gary's League still. Yes.

I want to spotlight. team name Pigeon Doctor. Thank you for supporting showing up. Oh, Pigeon Doctor. Yeah. Pigein Doctor, you did not draft showing up. But thank you for at least stumping for it. I love that.

All right. Until later. Back to your orgy. Bye. All right. We should talk about other aspects of this movie, though, because there are so many of them. what is your what is your take on

the Fidelio party you know what I mean like uncensored like and and the sort of space it occupies within the greater concept of the movie that it really is a much more limited part of the movie than most people were expected it really every time I watch it I'm like this really kind of is a freak

show I think more of the ritual part of the sequence than the actual sex? The ritual part of the sequence. It exists, but it's not what I think about when I think about that sequence, you know? And yet, if I'm going to this party, right? If I'm, if this is my, like, little getaway

where I get to go to this, like, fancy masked orgy, why do I want to be in the room where they have the big circle of, like, ceremony? Like, that to me, I'm just, like, tapping my watch being, like, y'all like let's get a move on i think behind the crowd what we don't see in the audience is that's where the catering table is that's where the snacks are that's behind there there's the bar that's where you get your cocktail right right um there is a overlook hotel new year's eve man in a bear costume going down on a tuxedoed reveler aspect to that whole party too that i feel like is a

little bit of a Kubrick through line that I appreciate, where like, oh, right, like, Kubrick just like, when Stanley Kubrick does decide to delve into the realm of the sexual. I mean, that whole Christmas party at the beginning of the movie looks like it's in the overlooked ballroom. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It does.

The big winding staircase that he has to go up. And there's also, this movie is so full of people in fancy tuxedos walking up to. to usually Tom Cruise and being like, sir, you're needed in the next room. Like, sir, the presence of your, your presence is requested over here. And it all sounds very like vaguely sinister. And all of that is sort of like carried off very well. I think this movie, this movie's relationship with sort of the naked female form is also interesting to me, where it's, there's a little bit of like,

huh, how about that? Look at all of that. And it's just sort of like, yeah, like, it's a naked body. You've all got stashes of Playboy. I would argue that Nicole Kidman's body is more sexualized. One million percent. The, like, not dehumanized, but like the non-human characters that are having sex on screen in this movie. Yes.

Like, that doesn't feel. Like, it's, you know, people- Yeah, the orgy is not sexy. It's, at all. But it- And it doesn't need to be. It's a difference between not being sexy and not being sexualized.

Like, yes. Yeah. It does feel more like the shining than it feels like watching people fuck, you know? Right. Whereas, like, the shots of Kidman's nudity feel much more erotic. You mentioned at the top of your 60-second plot, the, cowardice of her nudity opposite Tom Cruise not having any news. Not to like boil it

down to like base stuff or whatever, but like... Well, and it's very funny because like that shot in particular because it's this slow zoom in and like Cruz comes into the shot at the exact moment where we have no idea if he's wearing underwear or not. Right. Plausible deniability. There, I do think that there is not to, you know, be this person. But I do think that there is. an impact to the journey that this character goes on,

and we never see him naked, feels very honest. Sure. Well, no, like, in terms of, like, the way that it relates to the story, yes. He's afraid. He's, he afraid of sexuality, or is he so incredibly caught up in his own sort of male, illusion, this illusion of male control and male power that, I mean, I guess I'm answering my own question. Yes, like, her telling him this thing about the naval officer has made him completely impotent, right? Like, that's like, impotence as a metaphor, or things being a metaphor

for impotence in movies is like as old as movies itself. Like, male directors have always been making movies. We're like, what is that supposed to symbolize? And it's like, probably impotence. like, you know, call up Dr. Freud. Which doesn't help the feeling of this all being a little passe. But I also feel like, and it's the thing that I mentioned in my plot description was like, yes, it's about impotence, but it's also like it's a man who I think wants to want to have an affair more than he wants to have an affair. Like he wants to be the kind of person who can revenge fuck his way out of what, you know, you. he's feeling. And he's ultimately not. Part of, part of it is because he does seem like, you know, kind of a wife guy. You know what I mean? Kind of a, you know, but also I think he's just,

he's, it's funny that he takes up the position in their argument when she's high of where she's like, oh, millions of years of evolution. Men have to stick it in a. everything that moves and women are only interested in security. And he's like, yeah, mostly yes, that's right. Like, you're being, like, weird about it, but yes. And it's like, it's weird that he's willing to push the argument in that direction when it's like, you don't seem to be somebody who, like, falls underneath that rubric, right? He does not seem to be a kind of person who needs to stick it in everything that moves. He seems almost like a person who, enjoys that other people want to fuck him.

I think that's where he maybe, like, is being too much in denial in that argument. He's not being honest in that argument, and I think that's why. He's too afraid to admit that. He's too afraid to say to his wife that he does enjoy that. Right. Right. It's almost like at the end. Yeah.

When he breaks down his thoughts and does the, the gayest thing about this movie. that he enjoys attention that much yeah but when he breaks down and sobs to her and like i'll tell you everything and it's like well what are you gonna tell her that she doesn't already know the mask is on the bed she knows well but she doesn't of course that's a symbolic thing that like she knows everything that happened or didn't happen in this fantasy but like is it a confession of like i will tell you everything that's on my mind and say things like yes i do enjoy or like yeah well and you're sort of previous infidelity or something you're left to wonder well well the next thing we see is it's daylight you know what i mean like the sun is already

up and so like they've been talking about a lot of stuff and she's in you know she's crying and he's crying so like clearly a lot of shit came out in this conversation and yeah um yeah i mean obviously As a sort of psychological probe into this marriage, I think it's successful. But, like, that's why I like the vignette stuff, too, where he's, like, he keeps getting himself into these situations where he's just, if, like, either repulsed or nonplussed by the idea of having sex with another person. There's that woman whose father has died who, like, throws herself at him, a Greg's wife. who isn't Dharma in this situation, but her husband is Greg from Darma and Greg.

Jump scare Greg from Dharma and Greg. I know. I know. But like, so like, and that, like, any,

that attention from her sort of like turns him off. And the Vanessa Shaw scene, obviously, the Lili Sobieski part is sort of fraught with the complication of, this does feel like Kubrick being like, now on the subject of how, I directed Lolita. And now I will, like, bring this whole thing where it's like, at first it's comedic, and then when he revisits the costume shop the next day, it becomes really unsettling.

And you wonder if for a second that Bill is going to jump into sort of male savior mode there and be like, you know, no, I have to rescue this girl, which is like, that impulse is also very very much part of this whole, like, male sexual fantasy. The heterosexual male sexual psych being. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's all very, I get what he's going for, and in certain aspects, it's satisfying.

And in other aspects, I do get a little, like, oh, okay, like, yeah, I got it. And I hate being the person who's like, I liked it on an intellectual level, but it wasn't really feeling it. it but like I do kind of feel that way like there is something to a certain extent this is a like vibes wavelength movie that it's like you really have to get onto its wave length and it took a long time for I think widespread I also think you gotta want it to get on the vibe of this movie you got to want it a little bit and maybe on some level I'm like I could take really so um you have to wonder though like for people to have come around on this

movie, have things really change? Like, I was talking about, like, you know, the 30 years between this and Bob and Carol, the Dead analysis, like, has anything changed? And then this movie makes you feel like nothing did. But, like, if people can like it and talk about the themes of this movie more and get this movie more, has some of that change? Well, I think part of it is that change happens in a circle. that sort of moves forward, right?

But it's sort of spirals. So it's like, you know what I mean? We're like, it's a cycle, but every cycle sort of like nudges a little bit further forward. And so Bob and Carolyn Ted and Alice was at a very sort of like liberated part of the cycle. And then like, you know, you get into the 70s and it starts to curdle. And then the 80s sort of like swoops back. Conservative as hell. And then it's like by the time you get to the Clinton stuff, the Clinton era, it becomes so like.

sexuality becomes such a fraught thing. And you are, you know, dealing with things like, you know, sexual harassment becomes an actual, like, thing of conversation. And yet at the same time, liberals were sort of pushing back at the idea of certain ideas of sexual harassment because they wanted to defend Clinton. And so, like, culturally, we were at, if not like a complete ebb of that sort of progressive freedom of a Bob and Carolyn Ted and Alice. but we were at at least a very sort of uncomfort, like, discomfort position with sexual liberation. And then like, and it would sort of, and again, I think we're recording this the weekend that the Senate staffer sex video came out. And I'm like, how long it was going to take for this to come up. And it's like, so, and it makes you sort of like, okay, where are we at at this moment of, of, sexual liberation, comfort with sexuality, where this is a real eye-opener to the fact that

certain things that have become quasi-normalized in, I would say especially gay male culture in terms of like only fans culture and like alt Twitter feed culture and close friends, you know, Instagrams and whatnot. To get me,

to get me talking for a full hour, talk to me about the, the, the, the veil, the fake veil of privacy that people think they have on close friends is fascinating in the context of this whole thing. Like, it's, it's genuinely wild. But I think it makes me, it, you do sort of like step back and you're just like, where are we sort of like politically and culturally with our general comfort with sex, especially with like Gen Z coming up being like, you know, this more sex negative generation and then Republicans sort of banging down the gates waiting to like criminalize a whole bunch of things with like so it's like and yet like at the same time certainly some people feel free enough to get railed in the Senate you know a meeting room

and throw that up on their Instagram story and so it's a As far as movies are concerned, too, and I mean, you know, obviously Karina Longworth, fabulously, brilliantly, use this movie as kind of a linchpin as the end of sex in mainstream movies, you know, especially studio movies. Yeah. And, you know, that certainly hasn't changed. I mean, like, how often are, do you hear, well, not anymore because, like, we're talking about other things with these movies, but like the sexlessness of Marvel movies. I think that that's true. I remember when sort of that was the conclusion that Karina came to at the end of that series. And while I definitely think that's true, I also think it's worth mentioning that like everything in mainstream movies has narrowed because the product that is being put out as mainstream has narrowed.

But at the same time, independent movies are not as invisible as what they used to be. They are not as hard to come by as what they used to be. And so what we know of as independent movies are also pretty well available. And so you get something like, I'll just pull out a movie like All of Us Strangers, where that is an... That was the example I was going to use. That's an independent movie, but it's also, you don't have to, like, dig around to find it. It's going to be as part of the awards race. Andrew Scott's maybe going to get an...

Well, hopefully. Andrew Scott's going to hopefully get an Oscar nomination for it. And that is a movie that has visible come in it. And I've still heard people being like, well, you don't see any nudity in that movie. And it's like, where has this Overton window moved on sexuality? That this movie with visible come in it, that people are like dissatisfied that it's not showing enough. The other thing I would say is also in this time. And not to at all weighed into TV versus film discourse, but sex on TV was much more common.

but still in like mainstream TV what is sex in the city if not one of the most mainstream appreciated sex on networks like HBO and FX and whatever it's just like like sex on TV has definitely like that window has certainly moved

in terms of like what you can see on television now the clip I saw from fellow travelers on my timeline this week my dear my darling yeah that's like you have a television show where, like, that man's whole ass foot is in Jonathan Bailey's mouth. And, you know what?

Oh, I did not see. Oh, that was from like, that's maybe not for me. That was from the season premiere. But you know what I mean? It's just like, like, that's sort of where we're at now. So, like, it's tough for me to be like, well. But we're also talking, I mean, like, all the examples we just provided are showing not heterosexual sex. Like, where's the examples of that?

I think there's maybe even, I'm not going to say that. gay sex is more represented on TV and in film, but, like... The, you're right, the degree of explicitnesses. The sex scenes in Oppenheimer felt like, oh, I haven't seen this in a while. Yeah, yeah. Not to say that, like, there's anything revolutionary about the sex scenes in that movie, but, like, it felt somewhat uncommon. Yeah, you're not wrong.

There's, again, this is another one where I'm going to wait for you to see poor things. Which I've heard a lot about poor things. and Poor Things is also another Searchlight movie, but like Searchlight funded by Disney. I want somebody to write about Poor Things in Eyes Wide Shut as two separate sort of odysies through the world in search of sex movies that like, that do very different things. So I know what's coming. And come from very different perspectives. As I've mentioned to you a few times, my little trip to New York that I took earlier this fall where I saw in the span of three days, all of us strangers, May December, Saltburn, and Poor Things.

I was like... Could not have a more far-reaching diagram of sex. There's a real... It covers a whole lot of terrain in terms of, like, sex and cinema in 2023. It really is something. I saw the four real, like, sex-forward movies of the year. Not... I mean, I wouldn't say May December is sex-forward, but...

No, no, no, not sex-forward, but, like, four-word, but, like, four movies. these that sort of pushed Put, yeah, put sex on on front street Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, God, don't get the zoomers coming at me with a depiction as endorsement in terms of the May December conversation. You mean to tell me that people misinterpreted May December as soon as it was on Netflix? I am so surprised.

I will say. I'm so shocked. Can't believe it. I still feel like we were successful as a culture in shouting that down immediately, and I'm very proud of us. Anyway, not to like hairpin turn this or anything, but... Eyes Wide Shed is a Christmas movie.

We know that because every single scene has either Christmas lights or a decorated Christmas tree. And when I tell you that that is Joe Reed culture, it is very much Joe Reed culture. I want every scene in every movie. Just so you know, I bought you a giant Van Gogh art book this year.

I just like, it's, there there is something about this movie reminded me of Gremlins in that way where it's just like so many scenes in Gremlins are like dark room but colored Christmas lights and there is

something elementally pleasing about that where like it hits the serotonin distribution center in my head and it's very lovely and I love that I also love I mean what is Gremlins if not

about you know Gizmo's Dark Night of the Soul through his sexuality. Say that. Right, that. I also am like the last person in the world who's not sick of alternative Christmas movie culture. Like I still, I know people say die hard as a Christmas movie too often, but like I like when I can point out that a non-traditional movie is a Christmas movie. I watched Love the Coopers for the first time yesterday. Oh, talk about this, please.

That is hardly, it's not really, it feels like an alternative Christmas movie because it feels like people don't know that this movie exists. Right, but it's, it's about Christmas, though. I didn't know it was a Christmas movie until Matt Jacobs recently wrote about Timothy being in the movie. Yeah. Listen, Matt Jacobs always on the right side of history and knowing things ahead of time. Matt Jacobs has been genuinely, and I've said this to him, killing it on the freelance front this year. He has done, he's written so many cool pieces.

I'm really, really enjoying it. That's a writer worth following out there, y'all, our friend Matt. We love Matt. Love the Coopers is from the seventh layer of Christmas Hill. Everything in this movie is so deranged. I got to see it. It is like the family stones tethered, but it is the underworld tethered. It is

It's fucking weird It's the one in that abandoned school or whatever That's so funny What so wait So who I cannot leave the talent that agreed to be in this movie Five best performances in Love the Cooper's go Uh

Uh Marissa Tomey Nice You know what, honestly Timmy Oh, that's nice to hear I mean June Squib And is this after her It's got to be like after her nomination for Nebraska

She got cast in everything Like she was the hottest ticket in Hollywood This is her cashing in on her Oscar nomination That's so funny The dog that Steve Martin voices Sorry to spoil the ending for you When I realized at the end I was like This is narrated by the dog

I was like Why? Why? Why? Why is it narrated by the dog? Because I tell you, this is a Christmas Campbell Soup commercial at feature length from hell. Oh, no. Do I need one more? Yeah. Why not?

John Goodman, because we love him. Wait, did you throw in Diane Keaton at all? Diane Keaton's pretty bad in this movie. Is she really? Oh, no. Innocent, but not good. She is asked to be ridiculous in this movie. What is her Christmas? mischaracteristic.

Grief and yelling. Oh, like, she's like a widow? No, she, they have a child that passed away. Oh, God. And John Goodman's like, we should go on vacation. And she's like, no, I'm grieving. And he's like, but we could just go on vacation. It would be really nice.

And she's like, our child died. That is disturbing. All right, give me one second. I'm telling you, it's a Campbell Soup Christmas commercial. But, like, that to me. is, that's a good thing to me. Like, I like Campbell's. Oh, no.

Like, one of the worst movies I've ever seen, Brackett's complimentary. Like, I saw you put it as a one-star review on your... Because it's horrid. It's a bad movie, but I was entertained at every second. I mean, I do appreciate a movie like that. Like, I'm trying to think of what, I don't know. Anyway, all right, so with Eyes Wide Shut being an unconventional Christmas movie, I

was inspired to bring back our old friend the Alter Egos game. And our theme, Alter Egos is a game, dear listeners, if you are not familiar, where I quiz Chris, where I give him the names of three film characters, then Chris has to, in his head, or whatever, speaking it aloud,

identify who played those three roles, and then identify the film, that all three of those actors are in together. So, for example, if I said, let's see, I'm trying to think of, like, I should have like an example off the top of my head, but now I really don't. So for Eyes Whitechut,

if I said Lieutenant Daniel Caffey and Satine and, um, who's a third person, in this, and the emcee from Camaray. You can't pull stage. Sandy Frank, come on.

Oh, Sandy Frank's a good road. Okay, Lieutenant Daniel Caffey, Sotin, and Sandy Frank. That would be a few good men, Moulon Rouge, and Romeo and Michelle's high school reunion. No, but that's not the game. You have to identify the actors. Oh, but it's size white shut. Yes.

Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman, and Alan Cumming. Yes, and the movie there all together in his eyes wide shot. Okay. So, the theme for all these answers are Christmas movies, and they will be both traditional and untraditional Christmas movies. So they all have Christmas at some place within their film, whether it's for a scene or two or for the whole movie, but they are keyword Christmas movies, all right? Great. This is going to be fun. All right.

This is our holiday party. So, like, get a little too much eggnog and get a little, you know, little tipsy and then play this game with your friends, if you want. Okay. First, film. Your characters are Ray Kroc, Martin Weir, and Velma von Tussle. Velma von Tussle is Michelle Pfeiffer. This is definitely Batman Returns. Christmas movie that we...

We were just on podcast like it's 1992. Yes. To give us a listen. It was a very fun conversation. Work out who this. The other ones were for our fun and enjoyment. Say those names again? Ray Crock and Martin Weir.

Martin Weir is Danny DeVito's character in... What? Get Shorty. Get shorty, correct. Good episode. Good the sad Oscar buzz episode. Yes. Ray Crock is...

The founder of McDonald's. Oh. In the founder. Le Founder. Michael Key. Yes. All right. Next question.

Your characters are Tully, Diana Spencer, and Ingrid Thorburn. Tully is McKenzie Davis. Diana Spencer is Kristen Davis. This is happiest season. Kristen Stewart. Yes. This is happiest season.

Chris and Stuart. Sorry. Ingrid Thorburn? You did say Kristen Davis. Ingrid Thorburn is... Aubrey Plaza from Ingrid Goes West. Very good. Yes.

All right. Next one. Edward Nigma, Mary Sunshine, and Jenny Humphrey. Edward Nigma is Jim Carrey in Batman Forever. Mary Sunshine is Christine Baransky in Chicago. I don't know the other one, but we're talking about Dr. Seuss's How the Grinch Stole Christmas. Yes. Jenny Humphrey is...

Rod Howard's Dr. Seuss is How the Grinchstole. Jenny Humphrey is Taylor Momson on Gossip Girl. You know I throw in TV characters. every once in a while. So Taylor Momson as Cindy Lou Who. Yes, shout out to Martha Mayhewie, a POV character from Matt Rogers' Christmas album. All right. Next one.

Carrie Bradshaw, Erica Berry, and Regina Jor. Well, Carrie Bradshaw is Sarah Chesape Parker. Erica Berry is Diane Keaton from the First Wives Club? Not the First Wives Club. Something's got a gift. Something's got... Oh, yes, yes, yes. We're obviously talking about the Family Stone.

We are. What was the other character? Regina George. Oh, there you go. Rachel McAdams from Mean Girls. All right. Next one. Phyllis Schlafly, Erica Albright, and Nicole Wallace.

Um, Phyllis Schlaffley is... Merrill? I know this character name. It's not Merrill. It's not Merrill. Not Merrill. Second character name was what? Erica Albright.

Oh, this is the holiday. Phyllis Schlafly is... Not the holiday. It's not the holiday. Who did you think Erica Albright was? I don't know. You've used Erica Albright before. I maybe have.

I know this, but I don't know this. All right, I'll try another one. Phyllis Schlafly, Elizabeth Salander, Nicole Wallace. Oh, this is Carol. Yes. Because that is, that's Runei Mara. Yes, Erica Albright is Runei Mara's character in the social network. Got it, got it.

Phyllis Schlafly is truth. No, Phyllis Schlaffley is a real person. It was Kate Blanchett in Mrs. America, the miniseries Mrs. America, about the anti- homophobic. Equal rights, yes. And then Nicole Wallace, who, if you are not a view watcher or an MSNBC watcher, is also a real person. She was Sarah Paulson's character in game change, yes. All right, next one.

Nell Harper Lee, President James Whitmore, and Sandy Cohen. Nell Harper Lee is either Sandra Bullock or Catherine Keener. Correct. What were the next one? President James Whitmore. and Sandy Cohen. Okay. Sandy Cohen is very familiar.

What Christmas movie are either of these actresses in? I'm going to say that it's Sandra Bullock. It is Sandra Bullock. It's Sandra Bullock in while you were sleeping. President James Whitmore is Pullman in Independence Day. Yes, Sandy Cohen is Peter Gallagher on the O.C. All right, next one. Sherman Clump, Ray Stance, and Deirdra Bobirdra.

Sherman Clump is Eddie Murphy Yes Deirdra is like a Barbier star name What was the middle one? Ray Stance Dr. Ray Stance if you will Dr. Ray Stance

But like don't let the doctor through you He has multiple Christmas movies Yeah I think that's probably true This one is the one like Jesusy No this one is not Jesusy But there is one I think that is, like, vaguely religious. Maybe.

This one is definitely not. Um... What Christmas movie was he in? Shrek holiday? No. It's not animated. Deirdreau Bo Beardra, you definitely know. Fully.

But maybe have blocked it out for reasons. Reasons, yeah. Race dance is, like, a franchise character from a franchise, I think. you, like, are, uh, constitutionally opposed to. Okay. Is it like Deadpool? No, but it's probably at the level of annoying current cultural conversation these days. It's in recent years.

I think this is a Marvel character? No. It's a Disney character? No. What's like a legacy property that people are really annoying about? especially with, like, recent remakes of it and recent continuations of it. I'm on Christmas Brain. I've had too many Christmas cookies, I can't think. Legacy property that fans got really mad at one remake of it and demanded a...

Ghostbuster. There you go. Yes, absolutely. I object. Ray Stance was Akroyd? Dan Aykroyd. Oh, trading places. Trading places.

So who is Deirdrebo Beirdre. Always forget, that's a Christmas movie. Yeah. Deirdrebo Beirdre is everything everywhere all at once. Jamie Lee Curtis. Yes. All right. Next one.

This will be interesting. I don't know if you're going to get this. Henry Sherman, Ma Rainey, and Isis. Great. Um, uh, Maraney is Viola Davis. You're not pulling out prisoners on me, are you? I would say,

Oh, is she not Marini? No? Check your, uh, check your, uh... She not the titular role? She is, but that's not the only movie that Maureen was in. Got it, got it. Um... Maurene being a real person. What were the other character names?

Henry Sherman and Isis. Henry Sherman sounds very familiar, like that would be a Denzel Washington character, and then I was thinking the preacher's wife. It's not Denzel Washington, but... But it sounds like leading man... How about instead of... Henry Sherman, I think it's Frank Murta. Murtaugh is the character name.

Henry Sherman is not a lead character, is a supporting character in an ensemble comedy from very early aughts by a director who you and I both really like and made one of the best movies of this year. who has made a lot of movies and this year is probably made one of the best movies of this 2020 we're talking 2023 yeah oh that's Danny Glover yes why walk us through it oh oh this is almost Christmas yes I love almost Christmas I love almost Christmas

Henry Sherman is Danny Glover in the Royal Tenem bombs of course Ma Rainey is Monique in Bessie She played Ma Rainey opposite... I still have to see Bessie. I know Bessie, people love Bess. And then want to take a crack at Isis? Who's Isis? Is that Gabriel Union in Bring It On?

Yes. Is her name is Isis. Very good. Almost Christmas is... It's not a Love the Cooper's thing where it's like one star, but I love it. But it's like a solid, like, B minus of a movie that is like, fun, fun, fun. I really love it.

I think it's very funny. All right, next one. Charlotte Flacks, Cosette, and Torrance Shipman. Cosette is Amanda Seifred. Amanda Shipman. Torrance Shipman. Torrent Shipman. And Charlotte Flex.

Charlotte. Which is another character name that I definitely know. I would say check your presuppositions on one of those. Claire Daines. Uh, yes. Why? Uh, because of the non-musical laymiss. There we go.

Uh, this can't be Family Stone. You wouldn't do her, well, we also... We already did. Family Stone. Yeah. What's her other Christmas movie? Torrance Shipman is from a movie we... Oh, it.

it's Little Women. Because Charlotte Flax is reality bites. No. No. But it is Winona Ryder. Charlotte Flax is Winona Ryder in Mermaids. Roberta Flax, Charlotte Flax. There you go.

Torrance Shipman is Kirsten Dunst in Bring It On. You're very Bring It On. I'm very. All right. Next one. Jefferson Smith, Donna Stone, Ato Annie. Ato Annie Carnes, I guess. But like Ato Annie.

Um, that was Gloria Graham, wasn't it? Mm-hmm. Is this the bad and the beautiful? No. Not the bad and the beautiful. Jefferson Smith, Donna Stone, and Ato Annie. Jefferson Smith, that's not Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Mr. Smith goes to Washington.

That's, oh, this is, um, this is, it's a wonderful life. It's a wonderful life. Jefferson Smith is Jimmy Stewart and Mr. Smith goes to Washington. Donna Stone was Donna Reed's character in The Donna Reed Show on television, and Ado Annie is Gloria Graham. Okay, what other Donna Reed character was I going to give you that, like, you could have got Donna Reed? You could have sang somewhere that's green to me. That's not how we do clues on this. All right, next one.

Lucky Day, Trixie Delight, and Mallory Knox. Okay. Um These all sound like Zach Snyder characters or something Trixie to light sounds the most familiar to me It might be given

Lucky Day and Mallory Knight Did you say? Mallory Knox Mallory Knox. Mallory Knox is one of a duo Mallory and Blank. Blank and Mallory. Trixie Delight is from a black and white movie. I'm fairly certain. I don't know why I haven't seen this movie yet, but I haven't.

Oscar nominated, but not an Oscar winner. For the performance of Trixie Night Of Trixie Delight Trixie Delight Trixie Night does sound like a drag queen Also Trixie Delight sounds like drag queen So you said that movie is in black and white So we're talking about an older Christmas movie

That's another movie that was featured heavily on a season of You Must Remember This Got it We're like eyes wide shut feels like the centerpiece of A particular season of You Must Remember This This particular movie feels like a centerpiece of this season, this other season that I'm thinking of. Got it. Lucky Day is one of a trio.

Okay. Is this White Christmas? It's not White Christmas. Not that old. Trixie Delight was from a black and white movie from the 70s. The performance was nominated for an Oscar, but lost to a co-star. Oh. Two women nominated together in a black and white movie in the 70s.

Oh, boy. I know that listeners are yelling at me right now, but I'm not there. Um, 70s lost to a co-star. Oh, is it, I'm thinking lead. Is this Ellen Burstyn? Not Ellen Burstyn. In The Last Picture Show? No.

Um. How else am I going to give this to you? I really thought you'd get this by the character because I think you really love this movie. Um, go backwards through you must remember this seasons. If I can remember them in order. Erotic 90s, erotic 80s. Dead Blonde's Song of the South

Hollywood Babylon Uh Dean and Sammy This one was focused on a screenwriter producer wife Oh this is Was this a Polly Platt one?

So it's not last picture show? No What was the other major sort of the focus point in that. Besides Last Picture Show and, I mean, which is of Eastwick? Baby. Um, what's up, Doc?

Bottle Rocket. What? Why can't I get this? Polly Platt in the 70s. If it's the 70s movies, it's still Bogdanovich. It is Um Okay, so it's not Last Picture Show.

How about if I give you this? Inspector Clousseau Trixie Delight, Mallory Knox. Inspector Clouseau? That's Peter Sellers? Or? Steve Martin? Yes.

Did you give me mixed notes? It took me this long to get that movie that I love. Yes. Problematic Fave, Mix Nuts. Who do we think Trixie Delight is? Oh, is it Paper Moon? Yes. I do like, I haven't seen Paper Moon in so long, but it's Madeline Kahn, who I also love.

This is such a embarrassment that this took me so long. Any guess who Mallory Knox is? One half of Mickey and Mallory. For Tatum O'Neill? No. Tatum O'Neill is not in mixed nuts, I don't believe. Oh, oh, sorry. Why am I still on Papers?

Um, uh, that is natural born killer's Juliette. There you go. Yeah. All right. I'm so mad that that took me so long. I'm like the only person that knows. So surprised. Uh, all right.

Excuse me. All right. Carla, Ben Wyatt, and Champ Kind. Is it Tony Colette for Connie and Carla? It is Tony Colette for Connie and Carla. This is Crampus. This is Crampus, yes. People have come around on Crampus.

I remember really liking crampus in theaters, and now maybe people are doing too much for Crampus. Listen, you can't do too much for Crampus. You've got to appease that crampus. Ben Wyatt is Adam Scott in Parks and Recreation. Champ Kind is David Kekner and Anchorman. Sure. All right.

Next one. Lester Burnham, Judy Garland, Winifred Banks. Kevin Spacey is Lester Burnham. Yes. Winifred Banks is Diane Keaton in Father of the Bride? What was that middle name? Nope. You're thinking of Nina Banks.

She is Nina Banks in Father of Brin. Oh, okay. Winifred Banks is Peter Pan. No, but you're getting closer. Hook. No. Different story. Not that story.

What's the middle name? Judy Garland. It's a little someone. named Judy Garland. Renee Zellwiger. No. Judy Garland from television. Oh, Judy David.

Yes. Judy. Oh, the ref. This is the ref. The ref. Any guess who Winifred Banks is? That, who else is in the ref? You didn't put Dennis Leary in there.

I know, I didn't. I didn't want to find a Dennis Leary role that you could recognize. Winifred Banks, with what I just said Mrs. Banks. Saving Mrs. Mrs. Bongs. It's Who else is in that movie?

It's Glynnis Johns and Mary Poppins Just to move this long. It is Glynous Johnson. Of course. I love Glynneous Jones. Only a few more. I haven't seen the ref in a very... The ref rules.

The ref is really good. I'm sorry that Kevin Spacey is in it, but the ref rules. Jupiter Jones, Eleanor Sheltrop, and Doc O'Rour. Doc Ock is Alfred Molina? Nope. Doc Ock is

Who is it in the new ones? Was that? That wasn't Jalenhall. That was... Think animated. Oh. Oh, um, Catherine Hahn. Yes.

Um, okay. So Catherine Hahn this is the holiday? This is not the holiday. Who is Jupiter Jones? Jupiter ascending. Milakunis. There you go.

Milakunis and Catherine. You got that way too fast for how long you took mixed nuts that you got Jupiter ascending. I know. Immediately. Listen, the Jupiter ascending defender is logging in. There are a lot of Jupiter ascending defenders. I think you're all out of your minds. Eleanor Shellshop is from TV.

You're not going to get it. But who has, Milakunis and Catherine Honey should be able to get the movie. Is it Bad Moms? A bad mom's Christmas. There you go. Bad Mom's Christmas. I never saw that. Eleanor Sheltrop is Kristen Bell in The Good Place.

Ramona. I never watched The Good Place. It's good. It's a good place. Ramona, Miss Meadows. Jennifer Lopez. This is made in Manhattan. No.

Ramona, Miss Meadows, Benjamin Coffin, the Third. Okay, so Jesse L. Martin. Nope. Oh, Tay Diggs. Yes. What happened to Venny? What happened to his heart? The idea else he wants to pursued.

Are listeners who never understand what our outgoing message is on our Patreon call and it drives me wild? I'm like, do you people not listen? If you're not waiting for it, it goes by very quickly and you're not, it threw me for a second, too. I was like, wait, what is that? Fine. Maybe I'll change it. No, don't change it. ever um who else is named romona oh is this selina gomez no haven't you pulled out romona and

beezus to me before it is romona and beezus but uh um it's the other one it's even older than that it's even older than romona and bises i think this was also a tv movie Who's Miss Meadows? A movie I only know... No, a movie I only know as a... I guess it's not even like a DVD cover anymore. It's a poster on a streaming site as I scroll past movies that I want to watch. It's a titular role, Miss Meadows.

It's a self-directed role, I'm pretty sure. Wait, now I want to make sure. But I think so. It's a real infamous poster. Like, you'd know it if you saw it. No, it's not self-directed. She directed another... She directed herself in something else around this time.

Sorry. Sorry to mislead you. Who played Ramona in the earliest adaptation of Ramona? Quimby. Do you remember? I don't think I know. Okay. It's tough to do another character by this actor. Actor-director. Oscar winner. Female actor-director. Oscar winner. Recent Oscar winner. Very recent Oscar winner. Not Jamie Lee Curtis. Nope. Not Michelle Yo. Nope. It's not Francis McDormand

No, but I'm doing my Francis McDormon impression I'm looming Imagine my face looming I don't Who am I looming over What are you trying to lead me towards? If I'm Francis McDormon's big giant frowning face

Who's in front of me? what Oscar winner is in front of me while I'm what Oscar winner is oh the I know what you're trying to do I just can't get there it's it's not Arana no it's it's you're talking about the the looming in front of Sarah Polly yes yes Sarah Polly okay Sarah Polly. I'm going to have to put that in the Tumblr. Sarah Polly in a Christmas movie. Oh, it's go.

It's go. It's go. Have you ever seen the poster from Katie Holmes and Miss Meadows where she's got the housewife dress on and she's pulling a gun? She's holding a... Hold on. I'm sending this to you in the chat. You need to see.

You need to know. You need to experience. Well, great. There she is with her gun. Why do you want to watch this? I don't want to watch it. I just want you to see. What did I think that Carrie Coon in the Post was?

Miss Meadows. Miss Manny Penny. All right. Last one. T.E. Lawrence, Mrs. Venable and James Bond. All right. Mrs. Venable is Catherine Hepburn. From.

T.E. Lawrence is Peter O'Toole. This is the lion in winter. The lion in winter. Yes. T.E. Lawrence from Lawrence of Arabia. Mrs. Venable is Catherine Hepburn from suddenly last summer, and James Bond is, of course, Timothy Dalton from whatever James Bond movies, Timothy Dalton, was James Bond in. All right. Well done at that chaotic and excruciating. How dare you? All right, let's go into the Oscar-ness of Eyes Wide Shut, which definitely had Oscar buzz, but had all sorts of other buzz that I think overwhelmed the Oscar buzz. probably before people saw it.

Oh, yeah. Once it opened and people, then the reviews came out. Like, that was, it was. But I remember thinking very specifically, oh, this is the movie where Nicole Kidman is going to get her first Oscar nomination because it didn't happen with to die for. Do you think it's a leader supporting performance? I know that people are kind of all over. I used to think it was a lead.

Now I think it is supporting. Every time I see this movie, I'm like, she really is in less and less of this movie. And I know that like when she is in the movie, She's, like, the most important character on screen, but, like, and not to be, like, a screen time queen about it. And, like, normally I'm not. But I just think it's his, it's such his movie. And it's about male sexuality, et cetera. But I still think she's a little. I think it's borderline. That's fine. But I remember the to die for thing. She was so, like, so close to the nomination there. And I remember that to die for- There's a lot going on that year. Yeah, yeah. Well, but that was the first time that she really got respect for a movie. And the thing I was sort of talking about early on when we started talking was two hours ago, was that because the portrait of a lady sort of came and went without a ton of notice, I know Barbara Hershey got the Oscar nomination for it, but still, I think as a Nicole Kidman project, it was very, very quietly received. I think eyes wide shut was really for a lot of people, the next sort of moment of Nicole Kinman. Cole Kidman getting respect for an acting performance on screen for even the people who didn't like eyes wide shut all made mention of how good Kidman was in it. And so I think ultimately this movie had too much bad buzz to get Oscar nominations when it was all said and done. But I think

this is definitely a crucial step towards two years later when she would get her first big breakthrough nomination for Mulan Rush. Absolutely. Um, in terms... I think it's a pivot point for her in terms of her career, too, because she's so director-focused and very outspoken about how she follows the directors, too. And at this point in her career, she's working with Campion. She's working with Kubrick. She's working with Gus Van Sant, too. It's really funny how the two of them... I made the joke in the plot description about how, like, the dying numbers of their marriage or whatever, but like, after this movie, the fact that... that they got divorced within two years of this movie coming out. And also, the way that this movie sent them both careening off into completely opposite career directions, where he became

much, much more interested in controlling his projects. And she became much more interested in working with these visionary directors and these sort of avant-garde and interesting directors. And it's so funny that, like, working with Kubrick, like, I don't know what, you know, I don't know what's actually happening in either one of their minds, but, like, my perception of that working with Kubrick sent Tom Cruise into being like, I cannot do that again. Do this again. And Nicole Kidman being like, I might want to try to do that again. It's really, really fascinating to me.

And sort of plays into maybe my preconceived notions, but it's also like my notions. of, like, I arrive at these opinions of these two people out of the blue. Like, it's, you know, their careers have made me, have given me my opinions of these people. And I find her to be a more adventurous actor than he is. And I don't think that's a controversial opinion, even among people who really like Tom Cruise. I mean, you even kind of see it in the way that they talk about their experience with this movie and Stanley Kubrick in particular. Tom Cruise gives you the party line. Tom Cruise especially gives you the party line on how this movie will.

was altered and censored because there is lots of controversy. Like, every critic talked about it. And even the people that hated this movie talked about what a catastrophe it was that, you know, they're digitally inserting people into this movie to cover naughty bits and thrust. And it's so stupid, but it's also the least interesting thing about this movie to me, is that. But Cruz, as part of the production team, was like, well, Stanley Kubrick meant to put out an R-rated movie. he did intend to have this specifically put into the movie, which I think is kind of bullshit, but... NARC. What a narc.

I would feel... But to my point, Nicole Kidman, when she talks about this movie, is so effusive and, you know, borderline emotional talking about Stanley Kubrick and how they connected and what this movie meant for her career and her, you know, evolution as an actress feels much more natural. Yeah, yeah.

And Cruz, like I said, is the party line. Well, it also makes you wonder how much more comfortable as an actress. And, like, it's not like Kidman hasn't gone into, you know, some degree of behind the scenes producing. But it's like, she's not even, like, on a level of, like, certainly not like a Reese Witherspoon. You know what I mean, in terms of, like, this determination that Reese has to find projects, produce projects, that kind of thing. Whereas, like, Kidman really does feel like somebody who is very comfortable, I don't know if submitting is the word you want to use in the context of all this, but, like, give, like, being a vessel for the vision. Yes, essentially, yes. And that is her strength as an actress, and that is something.

And, like, and Cruz is very much like he's a producer. he is a sort of shadow director. He is somebody who has never actually directed a movie, but probably has directed like several movies. Do you know what I mean? And his has, you know, become much, much more. It's funny that like, Magnolia probably doesn't happen for Cruz a couple of years after this, right? where, like, he is, he really doesn't put himself in service to attours like that anymore, ever.

I don't think it'll ever happen again. No. And I mean, why should it, considering that, like, everybody is so willing to give him full control over anything. And why would he? Why would he go back to being, you know, that it's worked out so well for him this other way? But it's why I like Kidman better. It's like it's not a thing. It's like I didn't just decide, you know, one day randomly to like not be a Tom Cruise guy.

It's that this kind of thing makes me like other people better and this kind of thing that he does, this sort of hyper control, this hyper, sort of protectiveness over his image, this I find off-putting personality trait where he keeps trying to be so impressive. in terms of these like death-to-flying stunts in a way that to me feels like I very... The man wants to die on screen. Very transparent, like having a decade-long, if not more, crisis about aging, and decades-long, I think, at this point, crisis about aging. And I just don't... None of that appeals to me. And I know that, like, there are a lot of people who are very into the Tom Cruise movie star project of a all. And as a person who loves movie stars, I get it in theory. I just don't like the way he does it. And... Well, and I think the shame of it is I would advocate for Eyes Wide Shut being

among his best performances and probably the most fascinating movie for his star persona. Yeah. I mean, I know plenty of people advocate for the Mission Impossible movies for being like the emblem of Tom Cruise star persona. But I think Eyes Wide Shut is in a much more interesting. way in a way that like almost feels I don't know maybe Cruz thinks he flew too close to the flame with this because it feels almost in him revealing nothing of himself in this performance it also feels like he's exposing a part of himself not to not to put you maybe he wasn't a willing participant as much uh in what Kubrick's vision was yeah in that way or didn't uh respond to it, but it really does feel like a complete redirect away from this type of movie in any way

for the rest of his career. The fact that his next big movie after this, he doesn't have a movie in 2000, right? I'm trying to like, what's the actual filmography? The next movie that he's in is Mission Impossible 2. Right. And then Vanilla Sky. That's the thing. So like the next sort of Mission Impossible 2 being a sequel and whatever.

But like Vanilla Sky is such a fascinating. companion piece to this. We got to do Vanilla Sky for the Patreon. But like, the way that Vanilla Sky, and it's, you know, it's a remake. So it's not like anybody wrote this movie about Tom Cruise, but you could not have picked a more fascinating star for that movie because it really is all about how it's not all about. I keep caveating myself. Why do I talk this way, Chris? Why is this the manner in which I've decided to convert? I think I'm rubbing off on you because I talk about it. I'm so, like, I double back on everything.

I sound like a lunatic. Vanilla Sky as a comment on Tom Cruise's star persona is absolutely fascinating. The way in which it totally destabilizes him to lose his sort of famous good looks or whatever. And it's such an odd dismantling. And it's like that and eyes wide shut together are really fascinating as the sort of end of Tom Cruise's career as a certain type of leading man, which is a type of leading man who was a romantic leading man in any way. Do you know what I mean? He's had love storylines in his movies since then, but it's not in any way comparable to his movies in the 90s, 80s and

90s. You're far and away. You're Jerry McGuire's. You're that kind of a thing. And as I said in the group chat recently, they should have given him his Oscar for Jerry McGuire. It's still kind of shocking that they didn't. It's one of the most, I think they didn't in part because they figured they'd have, it's also why they didn't give it to him from Magnolia. I think they figured, well, we'll have plenty of opportunities in the future to do this. And it just, you know, it didn't happened and you look at all of these movies where it's like there is a there's so many movies that have a token love story in it like Last Samurai or um movies that there's the love story simply because there has to be a love story in this formula right but there are so many more

of them that are like conspicuous for their lack of love story the fact that like he doesn't have a love story and war of the worlds at all is just odd because like most holly most like action block blockbusters like that will write in a character to be you know he ends that movie sort of like backing away from his old nuclear family or whatever something like did you ever see the movie night and day with him and hamminghamer and diaz i never watched that i have and i cannot still could not tell you whether they have a romantic component to their story in that movie or not. I think that they do, but I think it's so perfunctory and poorly sold that, like, I genuinely can't remember. Same thing with Edge of Tomorrow. I'm like, are he and Emily Blunt romantic in that

movie, or is that just like not the way that that, that I remember that movie? Do you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's incredible. Even something like Top Gun Maverick, where he has a romantic storyline with Jennifer Connolly, but it feels like the ghost of a version of Tom Cruise is going through those scenes, where it's just like, it's very much not the movie that he even wants to be making. And I think just all those parts of him have atrophied by this point. And it's, it made me, like, for as much as I liked, the one thing I liked about Top Gun Maverick more than anything, beyond the fact that, like, it did remind us that Glenn Powell as a movie star.

Speaking of, I love movie stars. But I was like, I'm glad that Jennifer Connolly is getting to be in a big hit like this and whatever. But then you watch that and it's just like, man, this movie really can't get through these scenes with the two of them together fast enough. Like, to get to the other parts of the movie that it's more interested. Anyway, my point being is just that like, I'm at least during this part of his career, eyes wide shut and vanilla of sky. I at least found him a fascinating subject, if not somebody who, even by this point, I think I was a little bit out on the Tom Cruise thing. And I was like, I was a Tom, I was a few good men fan from back in the day. Tom Cruise was probably my favorite actor when I was, you know, tween to a teenager.

You know what I mean? Like that was... Along with lots of people? He wouldn't even make a few good men today. No. let alone eyes wide shut. Although that's another movie that, like, very consciously sidesteps the idea of a romance. That's, that's an interesting one.

But, yeah, I agree with you. And I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. In terms of, like, it's too bad this movie didn't get more Oscar attention because, like, the elements, this is a movie where, like, a lot of craft elements are really, really good stuff. Like, for as kind of funny as I find it, that they're trying to pass off London as New York. Like, this is a movie with really good art direction and production design. Not even London.

Backlots. Right, right. Studio sets. Cinematography, I think, is really well done. The way it cuts from these sort of steady shots on certain characters, the scene where they're arguing. Every time it cuts to cruise. like the beige of everyday life and then that electric cerulean

that comes in through the windows and then you get to Fidelio which just feels like flame and embers. How many times have we said embers in this episode? Take a shot every... Listen, you're at home during the holidays.

Get lit with us. Take a shot every time we've said embers in this episode. What do you think of a score in this movie which gets a lot of mileage out of pling? Plink. You got a Golden Globe nomination.

It's a good score. It's a really good score. It's one of those things where I'm sure it wasn't Oscar eligible because there is pre-existing music throughout. Yeah. I mean, very atonal Kubrickian score, you know. Of course, he uses pre-existing music so famously throughout his career. Yeah. Yeah, it's a stunning movie to look at.

It should be an art direction. that's one thing about the Fidelio sequence which it's like you can imagine a version of these movies where it's like they just show up at a mansion and start filming so it's like what is the art direction but when you're talking about a Stanley Kubrick movie you know that that is not the case

and these are probably sets Oh can we talk about for one second speaking of art direction and costume stuff Nicole's glasses in this movie which I think ought to be in the Academy Museum. Yeah, that shot of her looking at him across the room while she's helping their daughter

with the homework, which is, I think, one of the most iconic images in the movie, like, to the true sense of the word, not the overuse of the word, but what an evocative performer she is and how she knows how cameras work with actors and such. Yeah. Just the complete and utter, like, fire conviction of soul that. she brings to this character. It's also a very conscious filmmaking choice of like the person she is when she has glasses on. She's the mom. She's the domestic. She's like, you know, she's, she's doing chores. She's carrying out tasks. And like, that's the last thing she does before they leave for the

party at the very beginning. And she takes her glasses off and puts them on the shelf. You know what I mean? Like that's, it's like, okay, well, now I'm going into arm candy mode. Now I'm going into wife at a fancy party mode. And well, and the movie really knows that too. Because, like, that shot, well, you know, we see out of context in the movie all the time. And, like, that's strangely one of the most, like, memorable images of the movie is that shot of her with the glasses on a looking at her across the room. And in the context of the movie, it's overlaid with her monologue again where she's sobbing and kind of pouring her soul out where it's like that, you know, veneer of this is who I am, this is who I present to the world versus the opposite where all. that is stripped away in what we're hearing is a really distinct moment in the movie that always catches me off guard. Talk to me about the Venetian masks and the Fidelius. The variety of them,

what's being communicated with them. Okay. The shot of the two people up in the balcony that like people always seem to reference. The Sleep No More guy. Is that supposed to be Sidney Pollock up there? I think we're we're meant to think that. Yeah. But also I think it's also very intentional that it's all plausible deniability. You're never really supposed to know for sure who Sidney Pollack is. I've heard some people say, like, there's a theory that Sidney Pollack is the guy in the red robe, and I'm like, no. No? No, I don't think so at all. I don't know, man. He doesn't have that in him. He's just a guy. Should we, should we start maybe sweeping up the floor on this? Yeah, we can sweep up the floor. I mean, there's a lot that I think

is, you could talk about this movie for like six hours, but like, yeah, I mean, like there's, you know, the lore of this movie, I think, has been so picked apart that I'd be surprised if a lot of our listeners weren't familiar with, you know, the length of the filming of this movie, how reshoots were done again and again to the point where previous actors, most famous among them, Jennifer Jason Lee and Harvey Keitel, had to be replaced because they weren't available. Who was Jennifer Jason Lee? Was she the widow or the daughter of the old men? I believe she was the, daughter, if I remember correctly. That makes sense. The daughter who is like suddenly so horny for Tom Cruise that she's like willing to have sex on the day. She's willing to throw it all, throw it all away for Dr. Bill. I believe that's who she was. Yeah. Um, Dr. Bill showing his credentials multiple times in this movie is so funny, mostly because I've never actually seen that in a movie ever. I've never seen. I can't think of another movie character who's a doctor who shows his doctor credentials like they're an FBI badge. And he does. it three times in this movie. It's so funny. It's like he went to NYU. He tells you what he does so much. He's like, I'm a doctor. By the way, I'm a doctor. When I'm doing doctor thing, because you know. I was a Tish major in musical theater. I was, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, long story. I went to NYU. I'm a doctor. Very that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are my other, LMAO, these lunatic homophobes, the psychology of the masks.

While I've talked about the marketing of this movie being a detriment to its reception, if only we could just have a 30-second teaser and then a one-minute trailer for movies these days when we're so oversaturated. And especially like during award season, And for audiences that can't go to festivals live outside of New York and L.A.

where things are screened constantly. Like, I'm sure people are sick of poor things before they even get to see poor things. Well, meanwhile, though. So many behind-the-scenes things and trailers. This is maybe every article that could possibly have been written about the films of 1999 has probably already been written. But here's my maybe last, this is the last ever podcast episode on Eyes Wide Shut. We are the last people to talk about it. This is also maybe the last available take on 1999, which is it was perhaps the last golden age for movie teasers slash trailers, not in terms of, but in terms of like in the same year, you had the Phantom Menace trailer that like goost the box office of a totally other movie.

You had the eyes wide shut teaser where they're making out in front of the mirror that hit the culture like a bomb. Like an actual bomb was detonated when that started. And also I'm going to throw in there. Blair Witch? Well, Blair Witch, okay, yes, I will also throw Blair Witch in. But also, the trailer for being John Malkovich, I think, is like low-key, one of the, that's another one where independent movie, small little movie, nobody knows what the fuck this is. And that trailer had everybody talking. Like, genuinely, like, that trailer put that into the second thing, like, Octave.

you Spencer crowbarred that elevator door open and he walks out under that like 35th and a half floor or whatever that's that you know that whole thing um that movie was like completely like thrust into the zeitgeist and like I remember I remember the first time I saw that trailer in a theater and I remember being like absolutely knocked on my ass and I was like what is this I have to see this movie I remember seeing that movie completely blind with my sister and my dad They knew what the hell we were seeing. I didn't, and I was the only one that liked it. Nice.

Taste. The taste jumped out. All right. Yeah, I think, I think. 99. That Oscars would be made so much better with several eyes wide shut nominations. It's interesting, you know, you would, on paper, you think that posthumously for Kubrick, it would be, you know, just carrying on the tradition of the Barry Linden's, the

Clockwork Orange's, where it's like, he had four best director nominations, 2001, famously not a Best Picture nominee. And, you know, eyes wide shut is really the only time we can talk about it. I mean, The Shining is definitely not that type of thing. And that movie was critically, fairly reviled at the time. and I think... And was re-evaluated at some point there after. Of course, because, like, their re-evaluation is, you know, par for the course for a Kubrick movie,

where even the movies that I think were most understood at the time still had a high degree of controversy. Like, people got a clockwork orange when the clockwork orange came out, but was incredibly controversial. Yeah. People got Dr. Strangelove when it came out, but also incredibly politically controversial. Mm-hmm. And, you know, Barry Lyndon, like, maybe is the most understood and appreciated, but even so, there was wide critical debate about that movie, not just because of its length. Wait, can we talk about these Blockbuster Entertainment Awards for a second? Absolutely.

Who was the most reliable to show up for Eyes Wide Shut? Not the Globes. Not the Oscars. But the Blockbuster Entertainment. I relate to this because the first time I saw this movie was on Blockbuster Video. Like, I didn't see it in theaters. I saw it when it came out on video. And I wonder if a lot of other people sort of like took the same tack.

It's so funny to think about this as like a three-time Blockbuster Entertainment Award nominee. For in drama, romance, apparently there were only three romantic dramas that year because every category. And these three movies. Yes. Kidman wins for actress against Rural. Renee Rousseau in the Thomas Crown Affair and Robin Wright in Message in a Bottle. Cruz is nominated in favorite actor against Pierce Brosnan, who wins for Thomas Crown Affair, and Kevin Costner for Message in a Bottle.

I think the most unhinged and deranged of them is the favorite supporting actor in drama, romance, where Sidney Pollock is nominated, honestly, the taste. The taste, the quality. You and your suspenders. The correctness. But then they nominate Paul Newman and Message in a Bottle and Dennis Leary, the aforementioned Dennis Leary in Thomas Crown Affair, who wins. Imagine giving an acting award to Dennis Leary over Sidney Pollock and Paul Newman. Question, is this during the time of Dennis Leary on that firefighter show?

No, that was famously a post-9-11 show. Oh, right, right. Rescue me. Rescue me. Yep. Rescue me. Just a TV show that is absolutely gone. But this is around the time where, like, because remember, he was in Wag the Dog. He was in that one movie with Janine Garofalo.

He was in. Not a bad actor. No, but they were really, like, making a go of him as an actor at this point. He's had his moments. He's, you know. I mean, the ref, we just talked about the ref. He's great in that movie. So, yes.

Sydney Pollock is great a nice wide shut, and still, I think nominating him in supporting actor is so demented that I might have to put it on my ballot when we hit episode. Oh, shit. Oh, well, I'll be prepared. I'll be prepared. Much like Scar and the Lion King, I will be prepared. All right. All right.

There we go. Be prepared as a song about forming a gay union. I mean, maybe we don't want to sign ourselves onto that, because There was, like, explicit SS imagery in that musical number, so... Yeah, never mind. We're going through enough... Scar is just gay. We're going through enough public relations...

The hyphenos aren't gay. Public relations lies. Yeah, no, Scar is very gay. Scar is canonically gay. Scar is a gay Nazi. Listen, we're not ready to have that conversation, but it's here. Like, Scar is a gay Nazi. Um, all right.

All right. Eyes wide shut. We could keep going on... Listeners have things to do. It's the holidays. True. It's true. People have shopping to do for their kids and fucking to do with their partners, and we want to give them leave to do both of those things. You can't do everything in F.A.O. Schwartz. You know, you got to go find that kid you lost. Once again, my mind is brought back to the Senate bottom, and who knows what's gotten up to F.A.O. Schwartz. I don't know, man.

Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Joe, would you like to talk to our listeners about the I and TV? game. Yeah. Yeah, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress, and we try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for if any of those titles are television shows, voice only performances, or non-acting credits. We mentioned that up front. After that two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free for all of hints. And that's the most fun part. That's the IMDB game. What's the vibe? Are you giving or guessing first? I'll guess first. Although I wonder if you've picked the same one that I have now that I think about it. We'll see. Oh, maybe not. We'll go back to the drawing board if so.

Yeah. So, the movie, we didn't really talk about this much. Stars Todd Field, whose films we love, he's made a trio of films that are each sensational in their own very different way. Indeed. I went towards his erotic. drama, Little Children, which starred none other than Patrick Wilson. Patrick Wilson, we've never done. Okay.

A really underrated performance that I really think deserves its day still. Patrick Wilson, any television. There is no television. Justice for Joe Pitt in Angels in America. Justice for Patrick's... He's flayed. He can be anything you want him to be. That butts flappen.

in the Montauk breeze Um Okay Uh, the phantom of the opera Correct Um Uh, the Conjuring

Correct In Sidious Correct, are you going to get a perfect score on Patrick Wilson? Oh, I don't know. So my question, my, my, my, my dilemma as it were, is do I go for any of the sequels to either The Conjuring or Insidious?

There are so many sequels. There are so many of them are... They're just in a soup together. You know, he directed... I think one in each franchise? Yeah, I think that's probably right. Listen, that man has a real nice-ass-house probably a couple of them

because of the money that he has made off of those franchises. He is allowed to do whatever he wants... for him. Mr. Degmarg Dmanchik. 100%. Those two are a wonderful couple. Adore her. Adore them.

All right. I'm going to throw in a curveball and I will probably be wrong, but I'm going to say watchman. Incorrect. Yeah, okay. No perfect score for you this question. Conjuring part two. Incorrect. Your year is 2005.

Oh. Pre-conjuring, pre-incidious. Pre-in-siddle children. No. Little Children is 2004. No, it's not. It's 2006. Is it?

Yeah. I guess it is. 2004, Kate, was nominated for Eternal Sunshine. 2006, she was nominated for Little Children. Got it. All right, 05, not Phantom of the Opera, which was 04. So right after Phantom of the Opera, is it like the Alamo? Incorrect.

I'm also looking this up because, like the Alamo, do we, lose this movie in time because I think it came. It was Festival 05, release, 06, and that is correct. Is it the one with Elliot Page where, um, hard candy? Hard candy. Really? God! That is a movie that is both, uh, total junk and yet quite watchable.

Until the part, so we have to like turn your head away from the screen. But like, like, Elliot Page just sort of is on one. and I'm happy, I'm happy for that performance. All right. Oh, so close and yet so far to a perfect score. All right. For you, good sir, I went the Kubrick route. I traversed the Stanley Kubrick filmography.

I, of course, landed on the great Shelley Duvall. Oh. And so I'm doing... Hi, I'm Shelly Deval. Hi, I'm Shelly DeVall. Shelly Duvall. I'm Shelly DeVal. Known for no television.

so no Shelley Duvall's Fairichel theater great this is fun because it's like the shining is definitely there

correct Popeye is there correct um Nashville incorrect surprisingly so okay

there's a million people in Nashville three women has to be there then yes correct one more you know honestly no I can't say that

I can't say that it was almost like favored all but then, I mean, Nash. I've never seen three women. I need to see that. Ooh, boy. You want to talk about a vibes movie?

You want to talk about a wavelength movie? Like, uh, the fucking masterpiece. Like, uh, I don't know. Ari Aster needs to give regular donations to the Robert Altman estate because that movie clearly influenced his work. Um, all right. So I still have one left. It's got to be Annie Hall, right?

It is Annie Hall. I would have never guessed Annie Hall. I never think of her in that movie. Well done. Good job. She's so funny in that movie. You cleared that one. You nearly got that one.

You only had one wrong guess. Very well done. I don't know if I would have definitely guessed the Shining and Popeye. I'm trying to think of like what other ones. I should. I mean, being that it's a best picture winner, Annie Hall probably for SEO reasons is higher in that. I would have definitely guessed Nashville.

Um... I guess it's not a ton of actual movies now that I sort of look at the filmography. She's in fewer movies than you would think. Hi, I'm Shelley DeVall. I definitely remember Shelly DeVall's Fairchild Theater. If that was in her name for, I would have been so happy. That was a, I don't even know if I watched the actual fairy tale so much, but I was so aware of, because I didn't have HBO at the time. But like, whenever we would get a free preview weekend, they would really emphasize Shelley DeVal's Fairchild Theater because they were like,

Something for the kids, and it was like their one thing for kids. So, yeah, yeah, all right. Good episode. God, long episode, good episode. Merry Christmas. If you celebrate, if not, we hope you are enjoying some relaxing times ahead of the New Year. We'll be back on New Year's Day. Oh, we should announce this here.

So next month, in the month. Oh, yeah, good call. Another plug for our Patreon. We have a sponsor-level tier on the Patreon. We haven't advertised it because much to our surprise it filled up when we launched our Patreon basically

immediately. As of recording there are some slots if you wish to join the sponsor level. We call you our Sugar Daddies. Basically everyone at this tier, if you stick with it for three consecutive months, you get to choose an

episode on the main feed. What are we going to be doing in the month of January for five episodes. We are choosing, after our heat episode, kind of launched this, we are doing a Patreon Selects month of all movies chosen by our sponsor. Yes. It's going to be fun. We're going to be doing, we're going to Diva Town this month.

We are doing movies not in the English language. We are doing musicals. We are doing, Joe, what are some? other hints to get the ideas percolate. I mean, what are we doing? We are going to do... Um... Very actress-heavy month.

Some gay shit. We're going to do some actressy, act... Like, there's some actressing. The continent of Europe? Yes, the continent of Europe shows up heavily in this, as does the Catholic church, I feel like. The Catholic Church inserts itself, and... Um, yeah.

January, Patreon Selects Month. Get ready. Get into it. And if slots are open and you feel so inclined to become one of our sugar daddies, we love you, Gary. That's true. That is our episode. If you want more ThisHad Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.com.

Please also follow us on Twitter at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. And on Instagram at This Head Oscar Buzz. and you can also follow us on Patreon if you don't already at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? Letterboxed Blue Sky. I'm at Joe Reed. Read spelled R-E-I-D. I am on Twitter and Letterbox at Crispy File. That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Mevious for their technical guidance, Taylor Cole for our theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google, Google,

Play Stitcher wherever else you get your podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple podcast visibility. So please do not take off your masks and let him go. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week for more Buzz, and I hope that that tracks on audio to know

what I'm doing. Bye. Thank you.