This Had Oscar Buzz - 292 – New York, New York (with Katey Rich) (70s Spectacular – 1977)

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

The 1977 Oscar year is famously when Annie Hall triumphed over the cultural behemoth of Star Wars, but elsewhere Martin Scorsese followed up his Taxi Driver Best Picture nomination with a big swing and a miss. The Ankler’s Katey Rich is back on the show to discuss New York, New York, Scorsese’s attempt at a movie musical. Starring then-recent Oscar winners … Continue reading "292 – New York, New York (with Katey Rich) (70s Spectacular – 1977)"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Melan Hack and friends. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh Give me a number You got a pencil or something

All right, I'll have a photographic memory Just give me a number now and I'll remember No Give me your phone number No? Yes No Yes

No Yes Liza Manelli Robert De Niro New York New York I can take a hand Can you also take a walk?

Look, do you want me to leave? Yes I'll leave right now Bye. You expect me to leave after the way you talk about you just now? Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast donning our tackiest drag for our Andrews Sisters Act at the talent show. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie

that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy, and this May, all month, we're diving into the Oscar buzz of the 1970s. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here as always with my guest. slow gin, fizz, Chris file. Hello, Chris.

You know, there's probably worse cocktails I could be called. Honestly. That's a delicious one, and I'll take it. Sounds effervescent and a little slutty. It's slow gin, not something you make in a bathtub, though? Like, it has, like, an acidic taste to me in my head, but I don't really know what it is. I've never been a gin person, so I don't know. I've had slow gin.

It's more like, um, I think there's a different herbicide. graciousness to it. Right. Is that a southern cocktail or what's, I feel like... Sounds like it could be. What's like the southern gin cocktail of, of... Like a mint, when a mint jolip is made with bourbon. Yeah.

Yeah. I've never had a mint julep. Doesn't that, isn't that insane? I should have one. They're pretty good. You're going to get that creche ice. You're going to get that pebble ice, like the... Oh, I like that.

You need the sonic ice. Yeah. Oh, speaking of, well, we were speaking offline about my, uh, Palm Springs trips of old. My favorite Palm Springs trip was when we unpacked, went right to the Sonic, got cherry limeades for everybody, brought him in, and then just, like, drank them in the pool. It was the best. I didn't know there's a Sonic in Palms. There sure is. Talk to me about it next time you go. I will point you there. It's worth it. All this to say, a slow gin fizz, it's a sonic cherry limeade. Honestly, yes. Throw some gin into a cherry limeade, because that's what we did.

We dumped some rum into our cherry line mates, and we had a time. Don't put it past. Yeah, that's what you want. All right. As you have heard, because we do not believe in waiting even a single second for our guests to jump in, it makes us nervous. We don't want to be gatekeeping or girl bossing anybody. So welcome our dear, dear friend, awards expert from the Ancler. Hello.

Get to know it, everybody. Quist. Katie Rich. welcome to springtime at this had Oscar buzz. I mean, in my heart, I'm at this had Oscar buzz all the time. So I'm just glad that the listeners get to be included now. There's no turkey and mashed potatoes. Breaking out of your Thanksgiving tradition because we could not allow all of our Martin Scorsese research to go to waste on just one.

Not go to waste. Clay Calais. On just one three-hour podcast. Right, exactly. We could not be contained. We could not allow ourselves to not talk. about this movie of all movies, certainly. New York, New York. So that's how we knew we had to have Katie on for our 70s spectacular and to talk about New York, New York. So.

Yeah, delightful. I mean, we're going to, I assume we're going to like have 30 minutes of like screen draft, like debrief. Oh, relitigation. I get to relitigate. We're going to go straight into the 80s because we're going to relitigate raging bowl right here, right now. Listener, I tried. No, I thought we had to direct all our anger at the group before us. Like, that was what we didn't get to do enough of. Oh, we did that pleasant.

I feel. All the things I wanted to say about casino book. That's true. Yeah, casino also went early. That's me, but the color of money. I love the color of money. No, I've got another screen depth on the books already. So I got to prepare now.

I've got to make a new spreadsheet and watch all the Schumacher. We've got to get in on it. I mean, look, the best picture. follow-ups where there were 95 eligible titles. No, not 95, however many there were. That about killed me and Scorzzi did as well, so I need a long gap

between my screen drops. A long winter's nap. Or you just need a very narrow topic. Yeah, yeah, it can be like, like, Greta Gerwig directed movies and just go for it. Like, that I can handle. You don't want to watch nights in any time. That's true. I never have. Nor will I. I've never seen

nights and weekends either. I've never seen Hannah takes the stairs And I've heard that that's pretty good So I want to see Hannah takes the stairs I don't know if I've seen I don't think I have I can picture there's a promo still of Greta Gerwig like on some stairs maybe

Like a profile shot from the side You guys know what I'm talking about Sounds about right I just feel like I can picture Hannah and her stairsters Hannah and her stairsters Yes Okay my question about

Mumblecore movies Are they even available Can you rent them anywhere are they on canopy? Because if Hannah takes the stairs is more available than Martin Scorsese, New York, New York,

we have a systemic problem. This was one I had to track down and purchase on DVD and then ferret to Katie on a thumb drive in another country, in a foreign country. We really smuggled this one.

I transferred a thumb drive across an international border. That's right. That's right. We risk Interpol for you all. I remember when I letterboxed it, people commented, like, how did you see this? And I was like, um, don't know, don't worry about it. It's good.

It sits out there. I saw it in theaters when it was originally released and I remember it really, really well. I mean, we'll talk about the Oscars, too, like realizing that two of the best picture nominees of this year are also absolutely nowhere to be found. Like this period, I mean, you guys said you hadn't run into this as much in the set of these as you would think, but the digital availability of so many of these titles is crazy. Yeah. I'm surprised I've been able to find as many as I've been able to find. Some of them are, like, hanging out on YouTube. Like, that's how I saw, I think, Claudine I saw on YouTube.

But some of them are more available than I was expecting. So there's at least that. But, yeah, a Martin Scorsese movie that is very difficult to get your hands on. Is it the most difficult to find Scorsese movie? I mean, I kind of wonder if it's a music licensing thing, but then when you think about Scorsese, it's like every movie has. Yeah, like it's like a thousand Roman stone songs. Yeah. Because I remember when we were researching for screen drafts, whatever version of like mean streets that I found was like clearly recently refurbished or something because it looked incredible, even just on the streaming platform.

I think Kundon might be the other one that's really hard to watch, or maybe it's easier to watch now? I think the Kino Lorberd DVD Blu-ray that was out there for a minute is now out of print again. So yes, Kuhn will be. I was able to grab a copy from Netflix back in the day. Someone put it on YouTube, and honestly it doesn't look half bad, so you didn't hear it from me. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I, like Katie, tried to watch both the turning point and,

Julia this past week and was unsuccessful. Rebuked. You know what? I got to say both good movies. I rewatched Julia. I remember the turning point enough that I didn't feel like.

I felt like I got it, but both movies that I think people just kind of look down their nose at with the Oscar lineup and I have to say, better than their reputation. They're about women and that is not a coincidence, probably, in terms of well, this year, this year's

Best Picture Race was unusually lead actress friendly, where all five of the best actress nominees are in Best Picture nominees, which is not, it's not a thing you find very often when you go back through the Oscar history. So that was pretty notable. I did watch for the first time Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which was a... Oh, it was your first time. Loan director nomination. It was my first time.

That's one of those movies that I know. is so sort of visually spectacular that I had to make sure I, like, had an optimal viewing experience. So, like, I've got my, like, new TV, and I had a free evening. And then so finally, I watched Close Encounters. And it's real good. It's really good. Not sure if you've heard of it, guys, but Close Encounters is a great movie. Good movie.

Even the end, when it's, like, clearly just, like, little children and alien costumes or whatever, is, kind of fits the vibe of the movie in a way that I really enjoy. Well, it's like it does the mysterious thing that, like, what's Spielberg named with a shark, right? In Jaws, where it, like, keeps it away from you as much as possible to preserve the illusion. I haven't seen it in a while, but I think that's...

Well, and the whole thing is he's trading in his really annoying kids for a bunch of, like, cute little alien kids. I mean, that's the, like... I mean, Spielberg himself has said this, that, like, that is a completely psychotic thing for that character to do at the end of the movie. And if he made it again, he wouldn't... You do that.

Well, you know, in the 70s, man. Many people have talked about how much it's just like Spielberg's, you know, daddy issues playing out in that movie or whatever with the kid being like, you're such a cry baby. That fucking kid, I swear to God. Get him out of here. Are there any weird attitudes toward your progeny in this movie that we're talking about? Because like most of the other 70s guys are like good to their families and wives, right? Like no problems here in New York. Oh, I mean, yeah.

Robert Tenero absolutely does it. Everyone's great in New York. And Scorsese is definitely not working some new stuff out on screen. Not at all. Absolutely not at all. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. Also, good, like, parental vibes in Saturday Night Fever.

The other new movie that I watched from 77 this year that I'd never seen before. Weird that I had seen, like, Equis and the Goodbye Girl, but I had never seen, like, Saturday Night Fever and post encounters. Yeah, it is. A goodbye girl. Not so great a movie. It has its moments, but it's sort of fun. fundamentally irritating. There's a fundamentally irritating character at the center. The Goodbye Girl is the one where I feel like, I haven't seen it, but I feel like I get it.

Like, I kind of, okay, you totally get it. This is what I thought. You got it. I watched The Goodbye Girl. Did I mention this on the podcast? I watched The Goodbye Girl last year because it was showing in the Last of Us episode. And I was like, what are they showing on the, uh, in their little. I remember that. Yeah. When they're in the, they find the town with electricity and they have movie night and they're watching the Goodbye Girl. All these, like, little kids are watching the Goodbye. Because there is a kid in the good girl. Yeah, they're a big Quinn Cummings fans. There's like a swearing child in it. The 70s is like, well, Katie, your reputation regarding ban all children actors.

The 70s are like the era of nominating child performers. They could not get enough of nominating children. Even the goodbye girl has a child nomination. It's amazing. They were all about it. My stance on child doctors is less about the annoying performances, which of course there are and more about the quality of life for the children who. who were nominated. And for Tatum O'Neill, it was fine. Everything worked out for her after she got her.

Oh, yeah. Everything was great for Tatumoniel. Same for Linda Blair. Yeah, no problems ensued from this early brush with fame. But as far as we know, Quinn Cummings was fine. And Justin Henry from Kramer v. Kramer was probably fine, even though he cried on television. And I'm sure nobody, like, ever made fun of him for that at school or anything like that. So, I just that. Quinn Cummings is listed as an American entrepreneur on her Wikipedia page. So it- She's... Entrepreneur is a coded word. She invented...

Multi-level marketing. Is that what we feel like? No, she invented a sling device for carrying a baby in the early 2000s. Okay. Cool. Is it drop-shift? Where's the catch? It's called the hip-hugger.

I don't know if they still make it. Okay. But, you know, it feels like maybe she turned out okay. Just to close the loop on Saturday Night Fever, not... I know that, like, the reputation of that movie is like, it's darker than you think. And I'm like, okay. And then you watch it and you're just like, oh, oh, oh, God.

It's so much darker than you think. Jesus Christ. Yeah, I haven't actually, I had the same reputation and I have not seen it either. When you watch it, you will absolutely text me and be like, oh, Silver Linings Playbook watched this movie the second before they started doing. Oh, interesting. There are very, very much like, oh, Silver Linens Playbook took that and that and that and that. So that's why there's dancing in Silver Lightings Playbook, which is weird, I mean, everything about dancing in Silver Linings Playbook comes right from Saturday Night Fever. I'm like, it's...

Do they make crabby cakes? What the fuck are they called? Homemates, Crabys, somethings. Craby snacks. Craby snacks and homemates. Do they make crabby snacks and homades inside a day? No, he just has an awful mother who yells at him about not being a priest and she just like piles Italian food onto his plate at all times. So, um, um, There's that. Again, Scorsese working. I'm supposed to say it. Yes. Somehow. Oh, cannot wait. Cannot wait to get into the Scorsese of it all.

This is a dark, it's a dark moment for, you know, it's his musical. You know what I mean? He gave it a shot. He tried something. And then you read about the making of it. It's just like, oh, oh, this all sounds very upsetting. Yeah. He's giving a lot of things a shot at that point, it seems.

Yes. What do you do after you've made taxi driver in the time that you've made taxi driver in the time that you've made taxi driver? driver. Yeah, it's a good point. And probably at the point in your career when you can do anything, you know. Yeah, yeah. Before we get into it too far, though, Chris, why don't you tell our listeners

exactly why this had Oscar buzz, turbulent brilliance is the Patreon for them? Listen, listeners. You know we have a Patreon. It's called This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. We have fun over there for only $5. a month, the cost of a cheesy Gordita crunch or a slow gin fizz

at a dive happy hour. That's what to say. That much better deal than a slow gen fizz. You can buy us both a cocktail at a dive bar basically. And what are you going to get out of that?

You're going to get two bonus episodes every month. First of which we call exceptions. These are movies that are within that this had Oscar buzz rubric but managed to score a nomination or two for the 70s Spectacular. We are doing 1975

and the Who's Tommy. So if you want the full 70s spectacular experience, go and subscribe to the Patreon. You're going to listen to Tommy. We've also done movies like Vanilla Sky. The Lovely Bones. Nine. Charlie Wilson's War.

The mirror has two faces. Australia? With me? Australia. Australia with one Katie Rich. Yeah. the one and only hate rich? Second bonus episode you're going to get

we call them excursions. These are deep dives into Oscar ephemera that we love to obsess about on this show. Things like EW fall movie previews.

We've recapped MTV movie awards. We've done Patreon-only mailbags. We talk about Hollywood reporter roundtables. For the 70s Spectacular, it's going to be the next episode for 1978, we are trying out our first commentary track

for none other than disaster piece, The Eyes of Laura Mars. Very excited. Stick around for that. We're going to have some fun. Is that movie easily viewable, like for people to watch along? It's been fairly easy to either rent or on various streaming platforms.

I know it's been on and off criterion quite a bit. It's a good time. But go over to patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz and sign up now. Eyes of Laura Mars. I'm looking it up on just watch. Is it on YouTube? That makes rentable for all these places for four bucks. And yeah, it's VOD for, yeah.

You can rent the Eyes of Laura Mars and subscribe to the Patreon for less than what you would pay for a slow gen fizz and a real bar these days. That's very true. Yes. Where would you have to go in the United States to get a $5 slow gin fizz? like probably central New York or... Yeah, like the

bars near the lake in South Carolina where I go in the summer You don't know I'm finding those places. We're in New Jersey. Right, exactly. We love those places.

We do. Remember, like, places used to have dollar beer night? Yeah, dollar pitchers. Sure. Yeah, yes. What a time. What a time to be alive

and get drunk. Yes. All right. Katie Rich, first of all, thank you for coming back. Second of all, the 1970s, what a decade. Wow. We've been asking all our guests when they come on to our 70s episodes,

what is your favorite Oscar win, or maybe a handful of them from the 1970s? Yeah, I tried to prepare for this because there's a lot, I have a lot of 70s. It's hard. It's hard to pick just one. Blind spots, which I imagine is why you guys are doing this series, because you also have plenty of 70s blind spots. Exactly. And I was trying to think about network, which is.

like one of the movies I saw when I was like a teenager and was blown away by and has like held up and like kind of still blows me away despite being like a big old sledgehammer thing and I was like oh yeah well Ned Beatty a network and then I remember he didn't win he's the um which kept him from getting the full grand slam who I think is like the great single scene anybody and anything um but so then I kind of stuck on the supporting actor thing and I don't know how much I mean we're going to get to cabaret probably I don't know how much you've gotten into it over the course of this series but I feel like I like Joel Gray in Cabaret is going to be my pick, at least today. It's a good one. It's a good one. Like, Cabaret is fascinating in its place in Oscar history in that it didn't win Best Picture, but did beat the Godfather for Best Director. And then you get Joel Gray beating out three best supporting actor nominees for the godfather. Legends.

Like, legends, too. Like, legends and, like, performances that I think are certainly talked about more than Joel Gray at this point. So he beats out James Con, Robert DuFall, Al Pacino. which is, you know, Alachina being nominated and supporting for the godfather. We could complain about category fraud as if it was invented by the Weinstein. It's been around forever. Yes, exactly. Yes.

And like, so the emcee and cabaret obviously lives on. Like, Cabaret is on Broadway right now. It's not like Haberet is forgotten. But I feel like, I haven't seen Eddie Redmayne's version, so you can correct me if I'm wrong. But it feels like, like, Alan Cummings version of the MC is the one we got. Like, that's the one that has lived on. It's been replicated. He's gone back and played that character a lot.

And Joel Gray's version is completely different. different. Like, he's just doing this, like, weird little guy. That's so true. It's one of those characters that has been iconically defined twice in cinema. And, like, that's pretty rare. Yeah. And no one's complaining about it. It's not like, Alan Cumming comes in and it's just like, you besmirch the legacy. It's like, hey, there's a bunch of directions we can go here. They live so comfortably side by side. Yep, yep, yep, exactly. Because even with, like, Vell McClellan in Chicago, right? Like, B.B. New Earth and Catherine Zeta Jones, both giving iconic performances that were like hugely praised at the time, but they're both kind of in a similar

lane. It's not like CZJ like reinvented Val McKellie, the way that like Alan Cumming just put a very different spin on the MC. Yeah, because it's a character that exists outside the narrative so he can kind of do all kinds of different stuff. Cabaret is wonderful. I don't think we have any debate about that. Yeah, that's a good thing. And yeah, I felt like a good time to talk about it. And maybe, I guess, lead us to Liza. Exactly. Well, I mean... It does lead us to Liza.

Liza Minnelly in the 1970s in her film career. I'm very much, like, I feel like kind of a fraud in that, like, as far as I know, and I know this is not how it happened, but, like, in terms of my experience of her, she kind of sort of arrived fully formed at, like, cabaret or at the very least, at Steril Cuckoo, which is her first Oscar nomination in 1969. But I'm not super familiar with, like, young, younger Liza as like Judy's, you know, kid sort of like coming up. But I would imagine Judy Garland dies in what was the Stonewall? The 1969. There we go. Right. So it's the same year that Liza gets her first Oscar nomination.

So it's an interesting, almost like direct handoff of a baton of like, here you go, Liza. sort of like now it's you know you're the one a little bit and one would imagine that a lot of people kind of poured a lot of their feelings about Judy into Liza and that's a lot of pressure on well and I believe that 72 episode we talk about Rock Hudson you know talking to the press that year saying well Liza has the bloodline yeah you know you took that you took that in a really hard way. I don't, I think that, I don't mind that as a, the, the direct quote felt a little diminishing of her performance. Like, okay. This is the thing, this is the thing about doing the inside Oscar stuff. It's like, you expect certain cringy things, but then you realize, oh, people said some, like, casually shitty

things, but it's the people you like. It's like Rock Hudson said some stuff. I, I feel like Rock Hudson's saying Liza had the bloodline is almost just like, you know, chip off the old. old block kind of a thing. Or it's just like saying nepo baby now or something. Which is like, people who get upset about nepo baby as a sort of can, you know, get a grip. Who cares? Yeah. You and John Mulaney can have that conversation. Melani was, I watched Malaney's live show last night about nepo babies. He sort of made a comment about like everybody making the same repetitive op-ed about it in. Oh, sure. Like, yeah, I guess maybe we start the same thing being like, everyone's shut up. Yeah. He had a good bit. He had a good little, uh, little,

a bit with tiny little nepo babies in the audience of his show. It was funny. Wait, so, Joe, you've seen sterile cuckoo the movie? No, I just know about it. No, I just know about it. I was going to say, I want to watch the Liza nominations that, the Liza performances that came before Cabaret,

namely just so I can say I've seen a movie called Charlie Bubbles. Who doesn't want to see Charlie Bubbles? Directed by Albert Finney. Wow. This trio of movies before Liza does Cabberra. The title's horror wild. Charlie Bubbles, the sterile cuckoo, and tell me that you love me, Junie Moon. Where she plays the titular Junie Moon.

These are movies. Opposite Ken Howard. The romantic pairing of our time. Wait, wait, hang on. Plot description. It's just to get to this. Tag yourself in this plot description. I was going to say, Katie, Katie, give it a line reading.

June is a girl whose face is scarred in a vicious battery acid attack by her boyfriend Jesse. In an institution, she meets Arthur who lives with epilepsy and Warren, a gay paraplegic who uses a wheelchair. The tree are a disabled but not down and they decide to live together in an older rented house determined to help one another and prove themselves. I'll see that. Directed by Otto Preminger, Junie Moon. Tell me that you love me, Junie Moon. So, uh... Joe, how are you going to get Liza on the Cinematrix? Also, okay, so this is the thing.

Today was the day that Tina Faye was up there and I was like, sometimes these people have like six movies and it's really you're just strategically in your mind trying to be like, if I played this one here, it probably has a lower percentage and I get more points. Yeah, that requires you to remember more than two movies that were Tina Faye was in between 2000 and 2009, which I think I and everyone else only had to. Two. Mean girls, baby mama, other things. Uh-huh. Uh, this is where I, this is the first, this is the first one I've been on since Cinematric existed. I just need people on know about the daily ritual humiliation I put myself up to where I share my sent in Matrix with Chris File. He was always like, what? You didn't remember that Tina Faye voices the mom in Panyo? And I'm like, I didn't. No one should. No, that's not my tone. That's not my tone. Listen, Cinemate's is a battle between me and myself. I know. And then I check in and Jordan Hoffman...

There are two wolves inside Chris File. One is 1% and one is 52%. And only one get out of zero. And then Jordan's always like, I got four out of nine today. And I'm like, okay. All right. I'm better than Jordan. How does Jordan only get four out of nine? Jordan Hoffman guest on our 1972 episode. How does Jordan only get four out of nine when he is telling me about movies I have truly...

I think he gets met with the blank brain, which is what I get. Like I opens on a Matrix and I take my kids. to school. And while I'm driving, I'm like, okay, all right, what movies has seized Martin been in? Like, what was that poster? And I need time. And I think Jordan, I'm speaking for Jordan here, but I think it's very easy to be like, oh, fuck it. I don't know, baby mama. And then you're done. Well, and there's that disease we all have of we've been working in, you know, in movies for a while. And it's like, at some point, it all just tons to run together. Oh, yeah. And things just get papered over. The way I trip myself up the most is like,

was that in 2013 or 2014? And I guess wrong. Because there was just no way to. remember the difference between the two. I have to finish my coffee before I can answer any. What's become of me now is I'll look at a movie like, tell me that you love me, Junie Moon. And I'll be like, okay, four plus words in the title, character name in the title, 1960 to 1969. What else can you do with this? We need you to think these things through.

That's how I think now. And what you're going to get is a bunch of emails yelling at you about how the king of comedy is a, titular. Well, so what happens, so this is now the more popular we've gotten, now what happens is... Which you're very popular and you should be proud of that. I'm over the moon about it. You don't even know. It's like,

I'm over the Junie. Call me Junie, because I am over the moon about it. No, but what we'll get is people who, how I've described it is the Raptors testing the fences in Jurassic Park. Yeah. Where it's like people will like go to the absolute fringes of any

category description to see if they can get away with something. And then when they don't, they email us and you're like, this is technically correct. I should be right about this. And then I have to be like, I'm sorry, love and mercy was a TIF premiere in 2014, but it did not premiere actually until 2050. So it doesn't actually count. So you get to be a pedant to people who show up to you to be a pedant. So they've invited it upon themselves. A little bit. Like we want to be, we want to keep the game as fun as possible. So we don't want to be like school marmish about it. But we also don't want to be like pushovers. And so it's a balance. It's a delicate balance, as Edward Alby once said. And we have to sort of figure it out. I'm going back to

my, because when I go through my photo roll, it's like pictures of my kids, like works off and then like every single day's like grid, grid, grid, grid, grid, grid. And like the shame I felt when I couldn't get a Kate Hudson with a vowel that wasn't almost famous. It was 94% like the tragedy that resulted Alex and Emma No one wants to remember when she went through that for Alex and Emma

I understand it But that same grid I got lucky you for Drew Barrymore for 2000 2009 and like the pride It's just like a range every day

We go through so much Well I'm so glad Every time you send me your grids I get so happy So keep doing it All this to say We need Liza on the crew

We do need Liza on the grid Okay so to pull it into New York New York Yes thank you to say Every, I've seen this movie, like, maybe three or four times now. And, like, the thing that I am, like, the top, the top comment I have every time I finish this movie is, like, Liza acts Robert De Niro off the screen in this movie. Liza is so good in this movie. I think Liza is so good in this movie.

I think De Niro is effective at playing a really, like, the most unappealing character ever. I don't think his character is supposed to be more likable than he is. That's not to say it's not a problem for me in the movie. I also had the sense watching it, especially this time, that I can't tell whether it's an unfair advantage to just sort of like when you run into a snag, just sort of throw Liza up on a stage and have her sing a song. And it's just like, oh, this is wonderful. Like, nobody can do it like her. or whether a movie does that and I shouldn't like look a gift horse in the mouth

and just be like, look at, you know, sit there and enjoy it. I mean, it depends on which part of the movie you've scrubbed yourself too. If you're in the last 30 minutes, you're like, oh, it's fine. Then if you're in 45 minutes in, you're like, I'm going to die here with these. But, well, Chris, you're saying that, like,

I think De Niro is also really good in this, but I was just thinking about how, like, Liza coming to his level and doing the, like, mean streets improv, like, getting down and dirty thing. She can do that, but he can't perform New York, New York as a ballad at the end of the movie, right? Like, she can do both. And De Niro, for his incredible power, can't. And that maybe is proof of your point.

So. I do think, like, there is an interesting performance tension between there. And I feel like the movie is trying to exist in that type of tension because it's, like, very old school type of showmanship and, like, stardom. and then you have De Niro who's like one of the people ascribe to like changing the art form of acting in this decade you know this incredible modernity this very modern style and like the clash of those two styles together and it doesn't always work I find the tension very interesting

I think clash is a good way of putting it there are moments in this movie where they just actively don't seem to know what to do with each other in a scene you know what I mean where it just feels like they don't They're not meshing quite, you know, on the level. And like, Katie, you and I both, before we started recording, Katie and I both sort of hold up our copies of Peter Biscan's Easy Rider's, Raging Bulls, because we both thumbed through it to find the New York, New York stuff. And they mentioned improv and this was little in a lot of the reviews at the time that I also sort of perused, is that they did a lot of improv in this. And it was perhaps used as a crutch for the fact that the script just never. got finished. That they were sort of writing and rewriting this thing. This movie was written and directed and produced in a, I guess a haze of cocaine doesn't make any sense

metaphorically. A cloud? Sure. You know, yeah, powdered things sort of like kick up a dust cloud. Listen, I have a toddlers eye view of drugs at all times. I have I don't know what I'm talking about, but it's, you know how when people talk about a movie that like, oh, everybody must have been on so much coke when they made the movie because a movie is like,

very frantic or very, you know, like, loud and buzzy. And I wonder if maybe that's, we're just sort of thinking about that wrong. And, like, the idea of producing and making a movie on cocaine just means that, like, you can't, like, things just get unfinished. And those things are just, like, you know, get missed and get ignored and you can't, like, put the fine touches on it because you're throwing a lot of shit at the canvas, you know? Right. Yeah. No, like, you think of a cocaine movie being, like, how boogie nights, like, again, I also have a toddler's eye view of drugs, but it's like, it's big, it's moving all over. the place. So many Scorsese movies and Goodfellas is much more like a quote unquote cocaine movie. But like this is one where everyone was like, yeah, we were taking a lot of cocaine. So you're like, okay. Yeah. Take their word for it. Well, and you wonder if like the movies that have that kind of energy on screen, you would maybe have to like have a lot more control over yourself to do well. So like I don't imagine Paul Thomas Anderson, you know, being like on Coke doing. And maybe he was. Maybe he's a high functioner. I don't know. But like I think you have to I think we maybe have a little bit of a more of a one to one to one.

one feeling about that kind of thing that isn't true. So this is maybe what you get when you're on cocaine during movies. It's just like, oh, that doesn't quite feel like it works. And it's going on too long. And nobody really knows where to like, you know, say when

with this movie. Like where this scene is supposed to land you at the end of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are ideas in this movie, though. Clearly, Scorsese wanted to, with the candor and ab music and the sets, the way that like the sets all look very are this is somebody who's like already has filmed new York so authentically in things like taxi driver and mean streets it's not like he accidentally

made a movie look incredibly artificial like he did it for like for a reason everything looks like it's on a set that scene where they're in the woods with the snow where like the backdrop is like within reach like if one of them had reached their handout yeah they would hit backdrop it's like that obvious yeah the sky is yellow in that scene it's so gorgeous right right so it's all like there's there's a point to it and And the, you know, the artificiality of, you know, these old-style movie musicals, but that's a big bite at the apple he's taking, no pun intended. And I, it doesn't, you wish, you, the version of this movie that he had in his head

is probably fucking amazing, you know what I mean? As it is, this movie is a fascinating, you know, I guess failure. I guess you call it a failure. But I think it's fascinating. I mean, he certainly took it as a failure. I mean, it was. And I think his critics took it as it. It was.

It was a bomb. Yeah, a bomb and like, I don't think he accomplished what he wanted to. I don't think anyone who made it was happy with it. Like, it's like it's okay to call it a failure and find things that are redeeming in it. Like a failure in a way that almost know what their Scorsese movies are, right? Like, we all watch Shine a Light and we're just like, ugh, I don't want to look at this thing anymore. But that movie's not a failure. Like, it just is doing something that we have no interest in.

Some of us do watch Shine a light. Because it had gotten taken before we had to... Some of us dodged that bullet. Some of us dodged that bullet. Yeah, but now you can't say you've watched all of them, which is... I know. I know. It's true. I won't hold you to it. But yeah, I don't think... I think there are Scorsese movies that, like, I have lower on my personal rankings that are less of a failure. Because what is interesting and this one is so interesting and has stuck with me ever since we watched it that first time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is why I think this is one that I am very eager. to defend, even though I do think it's imperfect, and maybe, like, you could lob off at least a half of the first hour of this movie. Yeah. Because, I mean, you know, it is definitely telegraphing what it's trying to do in terms of the artifice of this movie and the type of movie that it's trying to recall. I just think that the results are a lot more interesting than often gets discussed. And maybe it's partly just that this is such an underseen movie in the, Scorsese filmography, partly because of availability. But I don't know. As much as I can acknowledge what doesn't work in this movie, I think the core ideas are interesting, even if incomplete.

Yeah, I agree. Well, now that we're at the 40-minute mark, I feel like it's time to finally introduce the plot of this movie. So, Katie, Limer. You know who all, that's also true of this movie, so that's fine. I've been scrubbing through my copy, just as kind of see, like, when, various things happen. And it is in about 45 minutes where, like, the actual, like, action of this relationship starts up. So, yeah, we're right on track. All right, Katie, limber up. I'm going to

give the particulars. We're talking about 1997's New York, New York, directed by Martin Scorsese, written by Earl Mac Rouch and Mardick Martin, starring Liza Minnelly, Robert De Niro, Mary K. Place, remind me to talk about it. Lionel Stander, Barry Primus, premiered on. On June 21st, 1977, Katie, are you ready to give the plot description for New York, New York? I think so. All right. We start right now. So meet Jimmy Doyle.

He is the worst character. Robert De Niro has ever played. And I am including Max Katie in that. He may or may not have served in World War II, but on VJ Day, he is acting like he is and trying to pick somebody up. He eventually lands on Francine Evans, Lise Manelli, who tries to tell him nine know so many different ways. and yet he wears her down. They start a relationship. She brings him to an audition.

She actually gets him a job. And then she gets away from him for a little while. She goes on tour. She winds up in Asheville, a beautiful place. He follows her there. And you keep telling her to say no to him. And she doesn't. And they wind up getting married in this very cute little motel that looks like it's right out of it.

Happen one night. They stay together a while. They fight. They break up. They keep fighting. She gets pregnant. And he freaks out. She goes home to have the baby.

He takes up with her replacement singer, poor Mary Kaye play. She can't hold a candle. It's not her fault. He goes back to New York. They continue fighting and breaking up. They fight in so many different clubs and cars. Eventually she has the baby. He can't handle it. He leaves a couple years later. She has become a big star. And then there is a whole ass movie musical at the very end of the movie in which she also sings. Eventually she gets to singing New York, New York, the song you know. He gets back. He sees her there. He tries to get her to go out with him and thank God for once. She says no. The end. The end. 12 seconds over. Very good. Katie, I know you are. a fan in general of Dream Ballet as we've talked about this before. How do you feel about an entire movie standing in as a Dream Ballet

in a movie and having essentially just another actor stand in for the other character in the dream ballet? Did it occur you know how much he looks like Harvey Keitel? That actor who... I didn't think about that, but now that you mentioned it. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

It's very straight. And it's stranger because he is standing in for Jimmy but he's like a producer. It's like a different kind of character. Like, you know, it's like the sanitized version of it. But it does feel so like, wait a second, we just did this. And like, obviously the musical is incredible. The fact that this is the only musical that Scorsese ever made is like a tragedy.

Like he is so gifted at all of this like wild camera work and lies this in the middle of it. But it does feel like you get to that part of it. And you're like, wait, was all this worth it? Like, if this is what we got to, like, I'm fine. And then De Niro comes back and you're like, oh, no, God. No, get him away from me, even though he's really, he's probably, like, in the ending, I think I can tolerate him more because you've gotten a break from him and he's like a little bit older and wiser, but still a piece of shit.

Yes. But yeah, you've got to go through a lot, a lot of them fighting in cars to get to. A lot of fights in cars, a lot of him making a scene at different, like, bars or professional meetings or clubs or whatever. But so. It's fairly repetitive. What's wild, though, is that happy ending sequence was like cut for. from a lot of versions of this movie, too.

So it's like, what do you do it? So what do you cut to her performing at the club where he comes to see her? Is that what happens? I guess. It's also not, not La La Land. Oh. It's not not La La Land.

I mean, yeah, I think that's something that, like, I had not seen. I'm sure that was conscious on Chaz's part. I'm sure that was not extra. Yeah. I think people who in the know made that comparison when La La Land came out. But like, and I'm not like a huge La La Land defender,

but like I think it does a lot story. wise that New York, New York fails to in terms of that relationship. Yes. Oh, it's a better movie than New York, New York. Yeah. Like, I'm fairly confident maybe less interesting. That they're on par. Wow. But like, oh, we had a kind of specter me with Lala Land where I'm like, I'm more of a defender. Katie's in the middle and Chris is more on the, I'm more of a defender of both. Yeah. I mean, if the songs in Lala Land were as good as the ones in New York, New York, like it would be like, yes. Well, so we get the thing where she has baby, they have the bedside

sort of scene. That's the best scene between them in the entire movie, I think. That's seen in the hospital was incredible. Yeah. He then leaves and they in flash forwarding six years, they sort of stand in with this performance of Liza's singing, but the world goes round. That is not part of this movie. That's outside of the movie. And I was like, oh,

this is really interesting in that this is the most musical, like movie musical thing that's happened in this movie, which is she's singing a song and sort of telling you what's happened to her character. And I'm like, that's really interesting.

We don't have to watch the part where we don't have to watch a montage of her sort of getting on with her life and him leaving. She's just singing a song and telling us about it. And then it follows with, again, this sort of like movie slash dream ballet or whatever where it's like three more songs. But there's also a whole montage of

her like headlines being, you know, but Francie and Evans performing blah, blah, blah, like does all... Right. But it's just like you could have just done, but the world goes round and then like cut to the, you know, a movie premiere or whatever and then go into your scene at the jazz club at the end. I don't necessarily think you needed all of that, you know, filler kind of. I know it's, you know, it's where Scorsese gets a lot of the most sort of visual imagery of just like... Busby Berkeley-esque, like, boardroom, you know, whatever, that sort of scene where they're all turning to her and everything. But I think it's a much weaker movie, though, without that sequence.

Like, you need that huge, ridiculous, ridiculous, indulgent thing to do the ideas he wants to do. That's why I'm like, why would they cut that sequence that's so crazy to me, cut a good chunk out of the first act of this movie because it gets so repetitive. I think that's why that hospital scene is so good because there is a clear defined end point that those actors have to get me with that scene and everything before it is, you know, very meandering. It's so hard to do a plot description being like, well, they're together and then they travel and then they sing. Like, there's no real action other than him being terrible. And so the entire like conflict of the movie is just like wanting her to get away from him. Like you don't, you can't, they both want fame really vaguely, but they're like the plot just doesn't have anywhere to go until, you can finally get them apart from each other.

It's one of those... This is the thing that La La La Land does do better is the, like, separation piece of the movie is so clearly defined in it. I don't think I care as much as I maybe care in New York, New York. Well, but in New York, New York, all I want is for her to leave him. And in La La La Land, there is a part of you that wants them together, even though you sort of appreciate the fact at the end that they're not. I also think in La La Land one of the big problems is that their breakup is so perfunctory

whereas the breakup in New York, New York could not be more built up to like from the very beginning this movie is building up to them breaking up and like it gives her plenty of... Their breakup scene is not particularly good but it's at least, you know, hitting some story beats.

Sure, yes. Sorry, you go, Joe. Well, I was just going to say like it's even for 1977, one imagines that you would go to this movie and be like, well, that's a bad boyfriend. Whereas, like, you don't have to look at it through like a 20, 24 lens to be like, this is toxic masculinity people, no means no. And like, you know, a look at our, because we do that thing where we go back to like 80s sitcoms and like all our courtship rituals are men refusing to take no for

an answer. And like 80s is generous. This has persisted through like the 90s and into the 2000s. So like, you don't have to have those like rearview. mirror, you know, look at this or whatever. Like, even at the time, you'd look at this and just be like, oh, that man is way too aggressive. He's, like, repellent. From the very first scene where he's, where she keeps, like, outright being like, please no, please stop talking to me. I want to do this.

Like, she's not being, like, subtle about it. She's explicitly telling him, I would like you to not be talking to me. And he's, Max Katie's not a bad comparison sometimes where he's just sort of just like, it is. a, there's a criminality to the way that he's so persistent to it. And because the movie then has to exist, she has to eventually be won over by him. And that always, to me, in a movie, I'm like, well, then it makes me like her character a little bit less just because I'm just like, oh, you're like, you're not a person now. You are just a plot, you are a function of a movie that needs to be a romance. So you were a person.

person before where you had agency and you were telling, you know, trying to get this person you didn't care for to get away from you. And it's just like the acquiescence feels like a character on a page. Do you know what I mean? Whereas you get like taxi driver two years earlier where you've got Sybil Shepard who was I think like less central to the story than Liza is and this. But like their date scene has so many layers to it. Yes. That the relationship in New York, New York doesn't. She's really underrated in that movie actually for every much as everybody talks about everybody else in that movie, but she's very underrated in that movie. But I can't even really put my finger on why I hate this character more than I hate Travis Bickle, you know, or like even like the guys in Mean Streets.

Like Scoresi's made a bunch of movies with shitty guys for like his entire career at this point. But like I thought rewatching this, I was like, because the beginning of that amazing shot in the street and you're watching him around and then like that you at the big USO party is so beautiful. You're like, okay, I'm going to be into this. I can like handle this guy. And after five minutes with Jimmy, you're like, nope, get him out of here. I can't do this. I mean, so much of the characterization just hinges kind of on De Niro's magnetism and his natural charisma, but we don't really know much about this character. We never really get a rooting interest in him even with his flaws, like we maybe have with Travis Bickle, who, you know, isn't easy to root for, but we understand as a human being on some level.

You also, you look at those guys in Mean Streets, and you look at Travis Bickle, and you look at Max Cady, and, you know, even Jake LaMotta to an extent, you look at all of those people and you're like, well, at the very least, society sees you all coming. You know what I mean? Like society isn't going to like give you an inch. Whereas like, Jimmy, because he's talented and because he has an ability to sort of advance with that talent a little bit, that like he's going to find a way to charm some people. Yeah. And the glam on to people like he does. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think then his manipulations become all the more insidious and his sort of awfulness, his like outright, my favorite scene between them, actually. I like the one at the hospital. But, and I know it's one of those superfluous scenes, Chris, that you probably would just rather cut. But the scene where they're rehearsing with the band where the one guy keeps fucking up and she keeps trying to like, oh no, this is a good scene. She keeps trying to be like, come on, guys. Like, this is the big deal. And we really. got to do this. And he gets so threatened by her taking any kind of like authoritative stance

with the band that he, you know, he grabs her and he yanks her and whatever. And I'm like, this scene is a great sort of microcosm of what's wrong with this. The problem is after that scene, they're still together for like two more hours. And there's a lot more scenes of her, him undermining her in different locations. Yeah, I like that scene. And then also the scenes where they're getting along, like, when they're performing together on stage and, like, like, in the rhythm together, they're really great together. Like, I think the hospital scene is kind of their best acting together. But, like, you like watching them perform. Like, you kind of get where this relationship is coming from in those moments where he's not talking. And then he starts

talking again and you're like, oh, no, it's over. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Well, the thing we're, like, she says she's having a baby. They're in the stairwell. And his first instinct is clearly to, like, recoil and then he like runs up the stairs and you think he's leaving and then he comes back down the stairs and then oh he's fine with it and then every minute that passes from that he's finding a new reason to be against whatever it is and he doesn't want her to go home and he doesn't want it or whatever and you know it's it's these kind of not to use an oft overused term but like these gaslighting tactics or whatever it's just like it's the manipulativeness that really, you know, gets to you because she's, she can give as good as she

gets in a lot of these scenes. And then when she backs down, it's because he's able to like manipulate her. One of my other favorite movies is when she yells at the other woman in the car when they're in the argument. Oh, yeah. Where it's just like, you can see it's just like she'll mix it up. You know what I mean? Like she will, you know, she'll get feisty with you. But it's like the, it's the thing about those scenes on having an ending. Like you get those little moments. And if you've got someone who's sitting in the editing room and I guess we should talk about how Marshall Lucas is one of the people who's in the editing room, like, who's just like knows that they're honing in on, but there's no honing at any point in this movie. Until the musical number, I guess, like the musical sequence is so tight that like that's what they knew what they're doing. Yeah.

Well, and I mean, it contributes to the idea that this is an incredibly uneven movie. And it's happening, again, you know, as we're reading in Easy Riders, Rage. Bulls. He's on a lot of coke. He's talked about in the years since that he was just on way too much coke. He chalks a lot of the difficulties in this. He's also really overlapping with Jimmy in a lot of not great and not flattering ways in terms of like he's sleeping with multiple women, including Liza, who are not his wife, who is pregnant. And he's like in the process of leaving her the way Jimmy is leaving. his character.

So it's like, for all of the movies to be like, oh, that's the one that feels more like a self-portrait, for it to be New York, New York, that's a rough, that's a rough state of affairs for Martin's. I pulled open Easy Writers Raising Bulls. He calls it a $10 million home movie. Ouch. Yeah. Yeah.

He got like married in the middle. Fableman's at eight, I'll say. There's like a, there's a moment in this book where he is sleeping with Les Menelli who is married to Jack Haley Jr., son of John. Jack Haley, who is a tin man in Wizard of Oz. And then also having an affair with Mikhail Baryshnakov. Yeah, she's sleeping with Baryshnikov and Scorsese, while Scorsese is sleeping with her and this other woman.

I have to break in and say challengers with Forerichnikov, Liza, and Scorsese, please make it happen. Three tickets to challengers, please. Yeah. Tremendous. Yeah, no, this woman, Cameron, Julia Cameron, I think, who, like, claimed credit for writing the script and she apparently was on more drugs than he was. This is according to his friends. I don't, I don't know. There's just, it is messy. Everything is messy. Even before you get George Lucas's wife in the editing room. I don't think he's sleeping with her, but there's

other complications from that. Well, and George Lucas is making Star Wars while this is all going on too is the other thing. So his, Scorsese's editor on New York, New York died. And so he called Marshall Lucas to be like, I'm fucked, you have to come help me. So she like leaves George Lucas, not like leaves him, but like, you know, he's working on Star Wars. where she, like, goes off to help Scorsese as he edit New York, New York, and George Lucas gets so nervous that New York, New York is going to do better than his movie that he, like, sends his friends to a sneak preview to, like, make sure that it's, like, not going to be some bigger thing.

And obviously, George Lucas having to, like, fend off New York, New York while Spielberg is making his own alien movie. I know. It's, like, kind of amazing. Because he and Spielberg were the ones who were buddy. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's a whole thing.

Yeah. What was for it? What was Coppola doing in 77? Trying to make apocalypse now. I was going to say, he's already in the jungle at this point. Again, I can't see him to this book. Also on cocaine. When Star Wars opened, he sends a telegram to George Lucas and just says George send money

because he's trying to make apoclet now. And Brian De Palma's in there somewhere fighting with Scorsese or like, I think he also goes to a first cut of Star Wars anyway. They're all in there yelling at each other and, you know, not treating them in their lives well, probably. I think, you know, the immediate comparison of Star Wars, too, is just like, and on the personal level seeing that success, just really the level of failure that Scorsese was at least feeling, certainly fuels Raging Bull and is the undercurrent of everything about Raging Bull. Well, that was the other thing was New York, New York felt like the movie where the critics had abandoned him,

because the critics were very solidly behind him with mean streets and with taxi driver and with Alice, I believe also. Alice doesn't live here anymore. But Alice, he also proved that, like, he can still make a great movie that isn't his baby. You know, he can make something incredible while still being a hired hand. And the idea was that even if New York, New York kind of underperforms financially, the critics will probably be there for him and they weren't. And then so Raging Bull then has to feel incredibly great. gratifying that the critics came back to him so solidly. Like, that was such a declaimed movie only three years later.

This is maybe something I would get better if I knew this period of film history better. But it's so hard for me to square Scorsese, who we think of now as this, like, Dean of Cinema. And, like, you know, he's this avuncular figure and, like, revered to square him relating to Jimmy, Doyle and Jake Lamata. Like, obviously, that is what gives those movies those power. but it is really hard to see that guy based on who he is now. Sometimes people mature in miraculous ways. Whereas Spielberg. Some people get sober.

Spilberg is so connected to who he was in the 70s, right? Like, he still has, he keeps seeking out other directors who have that, like, excited kid energy. And Scorsese has changed so much. Yeah. And I mean, maybe it's one of those things where you live, you live that hard in your youth. that you almost have no other choice. You either die young or you sort of mellow out in old age. Or you're Coppola and you get even stranger.

By the time that this episode is out, Megalopolis will have been unleashed upon the world. God bless him. I'm excited to see. But also, we all know that we're not going to be able to trust these Cannes for Megalopoulos as far as we can throw them because, like, it's canned. My prediction for Cannes and Megalopoulos is it's going to be all of the most histrionic, like, yelling about the weirdest things about the movie and decontextualizing them. And by the time we see this movie in the fall, we'll be like, oh, that's what I think is the fate.

The little bit of clip that we got with Adam Driver looks amazing, but also looks very processed. And also makes me think of, I have to say, Vanilla Sky is the first movie I thought of, like, comparatively. And I'm like, that's maybe worrisome. But I'm so willing to, like, see where it goes. I don't know. I saw a lot of people comparing it to Jupiter ascending. And I was like, you think that's a negative. One ticket to me, but I think it's a positive.

So, yeah, I guess, in terms of why did New York, New York have Oscar Buzz? The Scorsese of it, I think, is probably... But all these people were coming off of huge successes. Liza had just won an Oscar. De Niro had just won an Oscar. Scorsese had just been nominated for Best Picture for Taxi Driver, hugely acclaimed. Ellen Burstyn had won an Oscar in 74,

same year as De Niro for his movie. So they've all got the touch at this point. And then the candor and ebb of it all, and I'm not sure where they are in their careers, but I imagine they're like... they've done all that they've done, right? At this point, like, do they have any... They continue to work and such, but, like...

But were there any, like, major things that they did after this point? Oh, boy. I look to you for... I'm in the wrong Wikipedia. Sorry. Wait, while we think about this, I'm looking at Liza's, like, filmography. Because, like, after Cabaret, like, Liza with the Z comes out the same year of the year after. And then her...

After this, you get the art. and you get rent-a-cop. So, like, in this period between cabaret and New York, New York, like, she hasn't made that many movies. Like, she appears as herself in Millbrook's silent movie and her dad. Right. Vincente, Manelli, which, even though Joe, I know we know it's not pronounced that way, I still say it.

It sounds better, right? It sounds more fun to say Vincet. A movie I don't know anything about that I'm learning from here is Lucky Lady that came out in 1975. It is directed by Stantheid. Stanley Donan, and it is set in the 30s with Gene Hackman. So it's kind of supposed to be like the sting again. I was going to say, the poster looks like if you took your glasses off that you would think it's the same.

Yeah, like with Bert Reynolds instead of Paul Newman, which is a fascinating stop. Right. Yes. I don't know what the deal with this is, but now I'm very curious. That's all. I'm curious as well. Yeah, the Stanley Donovan of it all especially. Liza Hackman, Burt Reynolds, a young Robbie Benson. Can you go wrong? Yeah. And then she basically plays herself in things.

Like you mentioned, wait, which one did you mention? Well, she does a Muppets movie. She does Sex in the City, too. Yeah, she's in Muppet's Take Manhattan, which was almost certainly the first time that I had ever seen her in anything, was Muppet's But she has to be one of the best actress winners with the least. least film roles. Probably.

This is why you don't want her in Cinematrix just because yeah. Your options are too limited. Because it'll be impossible to get a 1%. Well, because she's just a celebrity. Like, she's just famous. Liza Minnelli,

2010 to 2019, and everybody has to say sex in the city too. Like her, she sings single lady. Her TV credits are just, you know, like playing herself at all kinds of different stuff. Right. So like, if you're Liza Minle, like, why not do that?

That sounds way more fun than, trying to be on a bunch of movie sets. Yes. Yeah. 1970, she's on Broadway in a musical called The Act, which is candor and ebb also. So she's really giving her candor and ebb on. It was directed by Scorsese. So this is almost sort of like this is all sort of happening all around the same time.

So no wonder they're having an affair. They're spending all their days and nights with each other. Yeah. And then what else comes after that? There's an owl and the pussycat stage show, musical. Musical? Well, it was originally a play. And then 1984, we mentioned when we did our episode on The Ritz, I think, we mentioned

the rink, which is a roller skating musical with Cheetah Rivera and Liza Minnelli that is also music by John Candor and lyrics by Fred Ebb. And book by Terrence McNally. So truly, all the greats came together to roller skate around. Broadway for a while and the ads for it absolutely are on YouTube and I would highly

I would highly recommend although I'll read this in the New York Times critic Frank Rich praised Rivera but described the show as turgid and sour filmed with phony

at times mean-spirited content and empty pretensions what's going on in this roller skating musical Jesus Christ Meanwhile I'm looking at De Niro's Wikipedia and like we talk about John Cazal's

run in the 70s and obviously only made five movies but like so deniro makes mean streets godfather part two in 76 he's got taxi driver plus a bernardo broolucci movie called 1900 i never heard of and elia kazan made the last tycoon the like the fitzgerald book that never's finished and then it's new york then is deer hunter raising bull like he's not really fucking around at this point like he's only working with the top guys the fucking around we'll come later with dirty grandpa The fucking comes around when the war with grandpa is declared, and it all goes wrong. But he has an untold number of wives and children to pay for by then.

The fact that he's made The War with Grandpa and Dirty Grandpa, I'm not the first person to make this connection, but like truly... Listeners, go see Ezra in theaters, like, next week. It might already be out there. Wait, did either one of you see Ezra in Toronto last year? No. Nobody saw Ezra in Toronto. Chris, you had to see all the actor-director movie. I thought you were going to say that you thought of Ezra.

Oh, Tony Goldwyn's made a bunch of other movies. I'm not going to. Diss to Tony Goldwyn. Diss. All right. Moving right along. This movie, as we said, was a bomb at the box office. $14 million budget at the time was probably nothing to sneeze at.

So $16.4 million is not great. Vincent Canby's quote that I sort of wrote down here to sort of... placeholds for all the negative reviews. Why should a man of Mr. Scorsese's talent be giving us what amounts to no more than a film buff's essay on a pop film form that was never at any point in film history of the first freshness? That is, first of all, very tortured phrasing, Mr. Candy, but also, um, dis on musical theater, like, never fresh ever, really?

But then also Scorsese would go on to only, really ever focus on genre because like you could say that basically any movie after this is you know his version of a certain genre you know maybe marty's last movie has to be a musical to sort of close the loom oh I cannot imagine how hard it would be for a man in his 80s to make a musical uh I know but good word um can I read a Marshall Lucas quote as I pull out down and dirty I please do he's your right as raising polls again so like so his his editor on New York, New York dies. He basically calls

Marsha and says like, you know, she's in the middle of editing Star Wars and she like comes to New York to help him. And here's a quote from Paul Hirsch, who was also editing Star Wars. Marsha respected Marty above all other directors and didn't believe in Star Wars terribly much. It wasn't her thing. She abandoned

George to work on this serious artistic film. For George, the whole thing was that Marsha was going off for this din of iniquity. Marty was wild and he took a lot of drugs and he stayed up late at night had lots of girlfriends. George was a family homebody. He couldn't believe the stories that Marcia told him. So, like, again, these are archetypes, and these are like just, just archetypes at work, right? Like Scorsese is sleeping with like a bunch of other people and not Marshal Lucas as far as we know,

but also her marriage to George Lucas breaks up. Doesn't she run off with the stained glass guy? Isn't that what that story is? I think that is what happened. Yes, that's, I believe, what the first 10 episodes of blank check Griffin and David about when they talked about exclusively Star Wars. I remember hearing that story a few times. Yeah, they stayed married into the

80s. He asked her to wait until after the release of Return of the Jedi to go public with their divorce. Oh, that's... I'm sure that stained glass guy treated her well. I'm so glad George has as much money as he does because honestly

he earned it. I mean, just like the idea that you can be like all of these like insecure guys while like comparing their movies to each other and that like one of your friends makes fucking Star Wars while you were struggling through the shit on New York, New York. Like no wonder he like fell into the impis for two years. And then your even weirder friend is often the Philippines doing coke and possibly literally killing people. And even he succeeds. Yes. Yes. All right. So as much as New York, New York flopped, it did get four Golden Globe nominations because

Sometimes the only friend you've got is the Hollywood Foreign Press, and they will create a soft landing spot for you. So it's nominated for Best Picture, Comedy or Musical, where it loses two. Any guesses? The goodbye girl. The goodbye girl. I have this lineup pulled up. Okay. Well, no, let me guess.

Sometimes your biggest enemy is the Golden Globes because they pick the good by. I thought you were going to say sometimes your biggest enemy. The goodbye girl over Annie Hall, over Saturday Night Fever, and then New York, New York, and then the The fifth nominee was Mel Brooks's High Anxiety. All right, Katie Only. What beats Robert De Niro for Best Actor in a musical company?

Oh, is it Woody Allen? It's not Woody Allen. Ooh, is it Richard Dreyfuss and the Goodbye Girl? It is eventual Oscar winner, Richard Dreyfus. Woody Allen is nominated. Mel Brooks is nominated for High Anxiety and then John Travolta for Saturday Night Fever. So really, like, kind of all the

big heavy hitters are in comedy this year, which is why Richard Burton kind of backstrokes to a best actor win for Equus. Most people actually thought he was going to finally win his Oscar for Equus because he was like, he was the Glenn Close of that moment where it was like, when is it going to happen for Richard Burton? And everybody was like, Equus is good. Like, you know, we can't give it to him for Virginia Woolf.

That train has passed. So is a good by girl like a big hit? Is that the, like bigger than Annie Hall? I don't know. how they compare in that regard. Which is always dicey. Because Star Wars obviously is the biggest of this group. But you,

let's see. Annie Hall and Equis, the only movies that showed on the, or they both at least showed on the Z channel, the Los Angeles public access that served as like the first screeners, basically for Academy voters. Yeah, Box. But Annie Hall's the only best picture.

nominee that did that and who knows, maybe it helped. Can I reach you the nominees? Eddie Hall was in the top 10 and the goodbye girl was not, but again, hard to know. Sorry. The nominees for Best Actor in a Drama at the Globes that year. Burton wins

Marcello Mastriani for a movie called A Special Day. Marcello Mastriani, who is about to have a resurgence in pop culture due to his daughter playing him in this movie at Cann. I'm very fascinated by Marcello Mio, Marcello.

The fucking French. Marcello Mio. Okay, also, Al Pacino in the Sydney Pollock movie, Bobby Deerfield, that I have no idea about, except that he plays. Tell me that she loved me, Bobby Deerfield. Yeah. Bobby Deerfield plays a, Bobby Deerfield is a race car driver in that movie. Al Pacino looks hot as fuck in this poster. I will tell you what.

Right now. By the way, speaking of 70s movies, and I shouldn't get into it now because it's for a different year. But I watched Injustice for All, which is a corny-ass fucking movie. But Al Pacino's hair looks fantastic. What are they getting justice for in that one? All. All. Yeah. He wants to, no, he has to defend a judge who's accused of rape. And that's the one where he has the famous, I'm not out of order. You're out of order. This whole court is out of order. Like that whole scene. Wow. Yeah. Half of the movies of the 1970s end on a freeze frame. That movie ends on the worst one, so I'll just say that. Gregory Peck as Douglas MacArthur in MacArthur, and then the fifth nominee. Henry Winkler playing a Vietnam vet with amnesia and PTSD in a movie called Heroes. Jesus Christ.

God bless, you Golden Globes. And then, okay, so who won Best Actress in Musical and Comedy? This is a tie, actually. It's not Marsha Mason? It is, one of them. Oh, and Diane Keaton? Yes. And Diane Keaton, they tied for Best Actors. Also nominated were Liza Lily Tomlin for The Late Show, which I also watched part of, which is a noir crime movie with her and Art Carney and Maud's husband from Maud.

You're just talking about Maud's husband from Maud in the up the sandbox episode. I know, we got his name wrong. We thought it was Arthur. It's Walter. It's Walter Finley. We got his name wrong. Apologies to all the Maud heads up there who were yelling at us previously.

But yeah, the late show. Art Carney and Lily Tomlin playing this like, I imagine, I didn't watch it until the end because it was late at night. But I imagine they like kiss by the end or something. But they're a real touchy couple. and, like, he's significantly older than she is. Anyway. Well, we interrupt and tell you something about heroes,

where we were about talking about Sally Field and Heroes? Oh, well, she was nominated for Smoky and about it. But Sally Field is also in this movie Heroes with Henry Winkler. Yeah, which also has Harrison Ford in it, in a role he apparently filmed before Star Wars, but came out after that. And if you look at the Blu-ray, it has, like, the what's clear of the publicity photo of Henry Wichler and Sally Field,

and then Harrison Ford just, like, dropped in front of them wearing this enormous yellow hat. It's really, it's quite a look. Henry Winkler's hair in the Heroes poster, by the way, is like, it's all there. It's just flowing. All of these hairstyles, it's a real Joe Reeves special. It kind of is. It's weird that I have this weird thing for these, like, 70s hairstyles. You guys didn't do this for the 70s hair?

You like a Maine. I do kind of like a mane. I do kind of like a mane of hair. I mean, Liza's hair in New York, New York is special. It's not a 70s main. It's big, faux, you know, very 40s. It's very, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, post-war.

Joe, we're on the opposite end of the spectrum. You like a main, I like male patterned ball. We are not the same. Because I'm like, Richard Dreyfuss, an asshole. But you're like, that's a thinning head of hair on that man. Like, yeah. Yeah, baby. Yeah, but he's like, what, 24 in Jaws, like absurdly young for how little hair.

He's so hot in Chubb. He's incredibly hot in Jaws. Of course he is. He's so hot in Jaws. Everyone's hot in jaws. That's true. That's true. That's true. Katie, you're not, we can't talk about it now, unfortunately, but I did watch Norma Ray for the first time. So once we're done with this podcast, we should all talk about Norma ray. Because I feel like- I feel like Norma-ray is the most discussed movie in this mini-series. Probably. We bring up Norma-Rae a lot. It's so fucking good. Okay. Can we talk about the fourth nomination that it got at the globe? Yes, please. I've been, sorry, thank you for bringing me back to- We got to get to this.

So New York, New York, written by Candor and Eb, theme from New York, New York, does at least get nominated by the Globes because it gets fucking snubbed by the academy, the so-called Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, does it know enough to nominate either New York, or I should mention, how deep is your love from Saturday Night Fever, which like... There's controversy this year, not around New York, New York, because at this time, it's not the gold standard that people are like, wait, that was really. written for a movie and a scorestays. Even still, you watch this movie. What the hell are we talking about? It stands out. Oh, yeah. I mean.

Well, because it's like, it's, it's threaded into the movie so well. Like, it does the great thing where you hear little snippets of it and you see the song kind of develop. But when you get it, it becomes a fully fledged thing at the end. It's thrilling. Yeah. But, like, it's, the song is so in our consciousness. And, like, the, not all of the songs in this movie are original.

So it's like when you watch the movie even now. It's like, oh, she's just doing a song that has always existed. Yeah, you feel like it's a standard by then. Yeah. But no, it's, it kind of blows my mind. That's why I put it in a hundred snubs last year. Yeah. Like, because it's, it's, you know, there's maybe not a better example of a song that has so permeated the culture and our consciousness and like, but also not been tied to the movie that it's associated to that it comes from.

Yeah. Do we know if there was a problem with those BG songs being eligible or ineligible from Saturday Night Fever? They were eligible because there's a whole lot of back and forth with the music branch. We talked about it in other years that there's, that the like, you know, the shortlist committee was like 17 people, you know, basically picking what they liked. And was it last year that in 76 that they basically did a whole revote after the short list because the theme for mahogany didn't make it through? Well, in this year, the Academy President was like, the vote is the vote. We're not going to do a re-vote, but like the BGs have multiple songs that were in contention and none of them even make it to the short list. It's so wrong.

Wow. I mean, maybe this is the thing that we talk about now where it's like, if you are campaigning multiple songs, you're just, you know, watering down the sauce and you don't have a chance. It's possible. So what was nominated? So you light up my life from fucking, you light at my life, the goopiest song ever, wins both the Golden Globe and the Oscar. Even of the shit that the Oscars nominate, like, a song from Pete's Dragon, a song from The Rescues, like, no shade, but like, come on. Pete's Dragon song, good. Ellen Reddy, how dare you?

Oh, okay, I'll give you that. But, like, the nominee that should have won is nobody does it better from The Spy Who Loved Me. Like, which, you know, Carly Simon singing the words of Carol Bayer-Sager and the music of Marvin Hamlish, you genuinely cannot go wrong. But you need Adele to be the first Bond song winner. History has to wait. I mean, that is crazy. And then once Adele happens, they're like all bonds forever. Never stop in.

Yes. Stop it. No, that's illegal. We've made that illegal. Yes, I have to remember. Sam Smith won an incredibly weird. original song feel the very first person to win an Oscar ever Sam Smith there is not a gem in that lineup that Sam Smith beat that was not fair I just want to be clear about no but we could have

taken care of a lot of business by giving Diane Warren that Oscar things in the culture if the weekend was an Oscar the idol would have happened it would have gotten three seasons who knows my favorite thing is not my favorite thing my darkly humorous thing is that now in my mind, in the same bucket, are Lady Gaga performing if it happened to you and Ryan Gosling performing, I'm Just Ken. Because they're both things where if you watch the Oscar ceremony and have no outside knowledge of what the campaigns are and where things are, you're like, well, obviously, these are going to win. Like, they're setting it up for that to be happening. They're the ones that they perform right before the winner announcement. And it's like,

this is the most obvious thing in the world. And then it happens. and you're like, okay, all right, I don't know anything. Apparently, you lied up my life, according to Inside Oscar, was the highest selling record of the decade, which I'm skeptical. There's no accounting for service. Saturday Night Fever year. The song was lip-synced in the film by its lead actress D.D.Con, which, by the way, this turned out to be Greece on Greece violence,

if D.D. Khan's song beat out John Travolta's songs. The best note cover version is the song, of is Debbie Boone, of course, the daughter of Pat Boone, who, are they like religious weirdos, or am I just stereotyping people from both clean country? The thing about you light up my life on the Oscar performance. Boone is still alive. Hang on. Did you know that? 90 years old. Eighty-nine years young. Yeah, 89. Wow. 89 years young, my friends. Not bad.

Okay. I'm looking up. Coming up on 90. Hang in there, Pat. When they perform the song on the Oscars, there's supposed to be a whole bunch of children who are signing the lyrics to it. And it turns out not only was the ASL that they were doing, not ASL, but also none of the children were deaf. I just clicked on the politics. Could you imagine if that happened today? Could you imagine?

No, sorry, I'm cringing because I just clicked on the politics tab of Pat Moon's Wikipedia page. And it starts with, at a 1961 gathering at Pepperdine College, Pat Boone said, I would rather see my four girls shot and die as little girls who have faith in God than leave them to die some years later as godless, faithless, soulless. Wow. Pat coming in way hot in 1961. Go off, Pat, dude. It should surprise you none that he supported Barry Goldwater in the 1964 United States presidential election.

Yeah. Yeah. He was part of God's Not Dead, too. Yeah, he's a Mike Huckabee guy. Not God's Not Dead, but God's Not Dead too. The Wikipedia rabbit holes that we go down here. So the question of whether Pat Boone is a conservative is been asked and answered. Okay. I mean, at least here after this Last Dance wins the original song, Oscar.

Donna Summer's song. My favorite Oscar won in the decade. Of the entire decade. Congratulations to Debbie Boone for surviving her. Of the entire decade. I don't know. I know nothing about the movie it's from. But, uh, it's just like a disco movie.

It's the, um, it's the village people movie. Oh, yes. Uh, yeah, maybe, maybe that's next year's 70s series. It's going to do it all over again, right? Yeah. Congrats to Debbie Boone for surviving her father's murderous intentions and singing me an Oscar winner. So there's that.

Um, there is something in like the kind of Oscar lineup that I want to talk about in relation to Scorsese. Well, let's, you read these reviews and specifically the quotes that like get pulled and inside Oscar. And you get all of these movies, the movies that are in this lineup specifically, like major critics are calling out like, here's finally a movie that's not filled with murder and rape. And like, it's a quote that happens for like every single one. one of these movies like Annie Hall gets it, Star Wars gets it, the goodbye girl gets it. And it's just like it feels like the culture and the academy is at a turning point where it's like, okay, so we- Is that the turning point you might say? In what is being, yes, it is truly at a pot-a-bou-ray turning point, some other type of

dance term. Where, you know, there is a, not a backlash, but there is a, is a rebounding to this level of countercultural movies or like movies with more extreme content in them like the movie Scorsese is making and it like it feels like they're talking about movies like taxi driver and you know when you start seeing it happen like it's a godfather yeah like it's a it's the pendulum shifting from the entire I mean I guess Rocky wins the year before but so like you're getting like the 70s are ending before the 70s end right in terms of what we think of the new Hollywood period well I especially thought of that watching close encounters where I was like oh right we're already kind of in the 80s with this movie like we've

already kind of moved ahead with Star Wars and Close Encounters which don't seem like 70s movies at all and yeah and it's interesting because when we entered the decade a 1981 movie yeah Yeah, yeah. And I wonder if there are some early 80s movies that feel like they're still holding on to some 70s stuff, just like we saw at the early 70s, that there were still some very 60s seeming movies being nominated for the Oscars. But, I mean, I guess, Raging Ball maybe is, you put that on there. I'm not clicking through the Oscars. Reds even kind of feels like 70s more. Although, Warren was having fun in the 70s. what's that Warren definitely Warren was having a time we're going to talk about Chris

when we talk about on our Patreon episode about Eyes of Laura Mars I saw Heaven Can Wait for the first time and I do want to talk about heaven can wait because the Jack Warden sance

was on for the late 1970s I love Jack Warden I love Jack Warden I can't remember what the first thing I would have ever seen him in because by the time I saw while you were sleeping

I kind of was already familiar with him and now I got to look that. I'm just going to look that up to say, I find my own curiosity. But he was always, like, just like the, like, de facto kindly old man in a movie. Um, that's, I would watch, I want to say, maybe he was in, like, the problem child movies. He is in the problem child movies. Then that's got to be what it is. Okay. Um, yes, problem child one and two. Okay. That's got to be words. Uh-huh. Although, weirdly, I, I saw the Muppet movie and the Muppets take Manhattan. And then, like,

it was years until I saw the Great Muppet. at caper for some reason. I don't know what was going on. Yeah, he's so great in While You Were Sleeping, though. I know. Genuinely tremendous. Give him another supporting actor nomination for that movie. Honestly, Chris, save it for 100 Years 100 Snubs Part 2. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Maybe I will pull out multiple supporting nominations for a while you

were sleeping. Listeners, if you want us to do 100 years, 100 more snubs, let us know, because I kind of want to. Watching all these 70s movies, they have such a list of, like, should have been nominated, should have been nominated, should have been nominated, should have been nominated. You know what's great as he's in... Instead of all these kids. He's in Bullworth. He comes back to Warren right at the end.

Yes. Oh, that's so wonderful. Good for him. Yeah. I bet you he was on TV in the 90s, too. So he seems like, you know, good, actually not as much as you would think. He was in a TV movie called Problem Town Free Jr. in love. Man, he held on to that one for, for, for, so.

Sweet, sweet cash. Get that check, Jack. Um, all right. Okay. A Rex Reed quote, I had to pull in regards to close encounters, which he hated. He said, living in New York, I'm surrounded by enough intergalactic freaks already. He's here all week, folks. Just gets it.

Rex just gets it. Yeah. Wait, so, Chris, you did, you did a bunch. Obviously, you've been doing deep dive Oscar research on all of these years. This was the 50th Oscars. So, uh, I don't believe it's included in the, YouTube clips, but Mickey Mouse also showed up on the Oscars

to celebrate a 50th birthday. Mickey was also leaving his pregnant wife that year. Keep that from being on YouTube. Yeah. Mickey left his wife. Mickey turned his back on his family and turned 50. Wait, so like, developed a really nasty cocaine. So Mickey was in the Oscars like 10 years before Snow White, and we just pretend it didn't happen and pin it all on Snow White.

It's typical. I guess. Blame the woman, always. SMH Um People mag was coming in hot too I guess What was that People Mag was coming in hot too

What they say Oh I mean we kind of talked about this at the beginning You know saying That the whole best actress lineup is from Best Picture nominees Yeah but they were quoted citing the ERA which was such a hot topic at the time Basically because they In saying that you know

There's so many roles for women in like 19 77 in Hollywood is like the year of the woman. They said that it's the year the holdout state of Hollywood finally ratified the equal rights movement. Ouch. Damn. You know what politically incorrect term watching all these 70s movies has really made me fall in love with? And I'm sorry to say this, Katie, is women's liber. That's the term. I love the term women's liver.

It sounds so powerful. But it also sounds like it bothers men so much at the time where everybody's like probably a women's liber or something. and you're just like, yeah, fuck yeah. It's like how people use Feminazi in the 90s. It feels like a really similar thing. Although this one sounds like Feminazzi is obviously like so much uglier on its face. We're like women's liver just sounds like you can have a party for women's livers. I hope they did.

I hope so. God, Gloria Steinem. Own that term, lady. Very good. Yeah. All right. Well, and you also have Diane Keaton kind of right out there. I mean like Annie Hall obviously big on like fashion trends.

etc. And she wins this year. It's the same year that looking for Mr. Goodbar came out, even though that movie was not well received. She's good in it though. She is so good in that movie. That is highly problematic. It is a highly problematic. But like, I think it's, I think it's daring, as daring as it is problematic. Like, it gets this, well, it gets a little bit too much of a reputation for being like a misogynist movie. And I don't think it's that. I think it's like walking a It's more of an age thing, because this was the thing with the director.

He was, like, very anti-free love, and he wanted to make this movie. He wanted to take a condescending stance, and ultimately, the reaction was people laughed at the movie, and they felt very, for lack of a better term, OK, boomer. Oh, interesting. That's interesting. The boomers were the youths. but like watching it from a more modern perspective I'm just like oh like go get yours Diane Keaton like Mousy librarian goes to the singles bars on 70 second street

like it's so interesting that like she's going to all these like sort of like dangerous places on the upper west side which I think is very funny but I don't know I like that movie I think it's a very good movie the ending is certainly for her to do that in Annie Hall in the same year is a serve like it's a real serve quite a fly yeah Uh, what else is going on? Let's see.

Oh, can we talk about Zionist Hidlums? What's that? Oh, yes, can we talk about Zionist Hidlums? Because, like, this is actually, for the Star Wars Annie Hall year, it's a pretty boring Oscar ceremony, which is why, like, the only thing anybody really talks about in the ceremony is Vanessa Redgrave's speech. I mean, it's rare, like, getting booed in the room, like, there's not that many people who've pulled that off. Right. But go back and watch it. It's like she gets applauded, and then when she says it, she gets, like, really booed, and then she, like, wins them back.

It is a very, aside from, like, its moment in history and, like, the- So explain, for our listeners' benefit, and I know we've talked about this a little bit before, but for our listeners' benefits, sort of go through, like, she had, she had produced a documentary that was supportive of the Palestinians. Yes, and she's already a very, very, like, famous leftist. in Hollywood and the and the UK and like they almost didn't want to hire her for the movie because like Fred Zinaman is like famously Republican and they got on very well in the movie and like she uh you know speaks out in favor of the Palestinian people she produces this documentary called the Palestinian and you know it has protests for it and and at screenings, right? There was a screening that was bombed. There's, like, there were calls for the studio to disown her participation in the movie. There were calls for the Academy to disown her performance and all of that.

And, like, nobody was. It sounds very, you're, like, not to be, like, glib about it, but it does, there are similarities to, you know, the Glazer thing after this year's Oscars. The pressure to disown, the pressure to, you know, deny what he was saying and whatnot, yeah. Yeah. And, like, her participation in the movie, she is very, like, upfront that, like, she is playing a woman who really existed, who fought the Knox. In Julia. Like, she is opposed to, you know, fascism, et cetera. And that's all throughout her speech.

That's the main. Yeah. The opposition to her didn't really have anything to do with who she plays in Julia. It's all about the documentary. Her political view. But her speech is like, this is a movie about somebody who opposed fascism. I opposed fascism in all its forms and sort of being like, you know, including the, you know, the fascism that is taking place with regard to what's happening to the Palestinians. She doesn't, like, say that out, but she does, um, thank my favorite thing is she thanks the Oscar voters for their bravery in defying.

it's so weird. It is, but like, it's real defiant. She's just like, thank you for voting for me, even though a bunch of Zionist hoodlums told you not to and threatened you. And at Zionist hoodlums, that's where the boo birds really come out, as one might expect. I mean, but the word hoodlums, like, how often has it been another? I'm going to start. And yet, if they're bombing, if they're bombing movie theaters, maybe that's not as, you know, inaccurate a term as you'd think. But from that point in the speech she goes on to be like you are so brave. Thank you for standing up against fascism. We should all be as brave as you. You are so brave. And then they go

back to applauding and it's like, are you applauding yourself? Right. It's a weird moment and maybe made weirder because her saying Zionisthood limbs is the thing that we talk about. Well, it's the one thing where it's like she uses the word that trips the tripwire. You know what I mean?

And then Patty Shoevsky comes out to present a screenplay award shortly thereafter and takes a moment to chastise her by name and suggests that Miss Redgrave, he said he's sick of people using the Oscars as an excuse to advance their own political platforms and whatnot, and that Miss Redgrave should have said, thank you, and that would suffice. and he says that on stage yes right before he presents best screenplay before i get on to the writing awards there's a little mad i'd like to tidy up at least if i expect to live with myself tomorrow morning i would like to say personal opinion of course that i'm sick and tired of people exploiting the occasion of the academy awards for the propagation of their own personal political propaganda. I would like to suggest to Ms. Redgrave that her winning an Academy Award is not a pivotal moment in history,

does not require a proclamation, and a simple thank you would. have sufficed. What a crazy thing for Patty Chayefsky to say. Yeah. Someone who like put some ideas in his work. Right. Right. Yes.

Yep. Like you talk about the intergenerational differences there in the Hollywood Old Guard and the New Guard. It's like the Hollywood Old Guard, which I guess Chayevsky ascribed to, it is very much like, this is not a platform for politics. Well, and it's that classic self-serving thing where nobody wants the Oscars to be a platform for politics unless it's their own. So, um, right, right. Um, but it's like you have a younger generation of which red gray was a part of that it's like, no, we're being broadcast to millions of people, etc. Yeah. Um, the best, the best quote that I found about this and I immediately sent it to you both is the press backstage asked Jack Nicholson who presented, I think best picture. Um, and ask him about her speech and I said, I quote. And, and,

I quote he says I guess it's fine but I'm not a well-read person you can see that what are these Zionists are they reds there have been threats I've been skiing the Gwyneth leapt out he missed a half a day

I'm such an apologist for Jack Nicholson I know I'm sure that like the center can't hold here and like whatever but like I'm this again, this series especially, I've just become ever more jackpilled. We don't get them like that anymore. You really don't.

You really don't, man. I want to loop back to Pai Charyovsky for a second in his defense. He won three Oscars. His acceptance speeches are all very brief. And his first acceptance speech for Marty was, I'm just very proud right now. Thank you very much. So maybe he was correct to say, you could just say thank you and leave. Maybe that was just his philosophy.

Yeah, I know. And, yeah. But it is interesting that somebody who made. network or whatever would be so like, keep the politics out of it, lady, you know, and, yeah. Sigh. What else was going on in 77? The Turning Point famously is nominated 11 times and loses all 11, which would only be matched by the color purple. And then a bunch of movies in the 2000s would try to get there with their zero for 10 stance, but that's just not going to do it.

we are in the zero-for-ten era. We all thought for a hot minute, poor things could do it this year, and then it did not- than it very much did it. You won a whole lot of stuff instead. I almost, you know, you don't want it to happen to a movie,

but for the history of it, I do kind of want it to happen. I want something to go O-For-Eleven again. So Irishman is O-Fer-10. O-Fer-Ten, True Grit, Killers of the Flower Moon. Yeah. What else went O-Fer-Tan?

Did, like, Kings of New York? No, Kings of New York once. Yeah. Scorsese's got, like... Scorsese's done it three times. Which is... Yeah. It's kind of amazing.

I mean, New York, New York is not the movie to bring this up with, but like, Scorsese is correct that the Oscars, like, don't really get him. Like, I think he has understood that. This, Katie... He was on the record about it at some point. You are the most fervent, uh, believer of this fact, of the, of the, uh, Oscars slight Marty, uh... I mean, I don't think, I, if Katie's saying the Oscars don't get him and that's what

she agrees with. I'm more so the Oscars take him for granted than they don't get him. I think they get him just fine. No, I think that's probably right. But, like, it took him, like, his stuff got nominated a lot, which is why you guys don't cover him that much. But, like, it's always very token. It's always very like, okay, yes, you've done very well. Thank you very much.

I don't see 10 nominations as token. See, I'm also coming from the perspective of somebody who thinks 10 nominations for gangs of New York is real generous. Ten nominations for the Irishman is real generous. So. I don't agree with that for the Irish. No, we can't argue about the Irishman. We dodged that Irishman bullet. Our friendship stayed intact.

We can't go down this road. I mean, I'm thinking of like the age of innocence, which gets like how many nominations. Like not as many as it deserves. Right. That is true. That is true. He just made too many great movies when they give it attention. And he has two, right?

Because he got picture and director for the departed. For the departed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Like he has fewer Oscars. than like, I don't know, name your idiot.

I'm always somebody, I think my, because I reproach the Oscars very much from a nomination's first, win, second kind of a perspective, then I'm always less concerned with somebody getting snubbed for a win than I am with somebody getting snubbed for a nomination. Because I feel like once you've gotten the nomination, you're there in the history books. I'm somebody who scans Oscar ballots constantly. So I'm always just like, well, they're there. Tuesday, well, thanks. And so I'm...

Yeah, like, Lily Gladstone got her moment. Like, we did not take that away. And also, now we're all fired up for the next Lily Gladstone movie. You know what I mean? No, I'm with you on that. Those things are good, whereas, like, if you get, don't get nominated at all, then it's just sort of like, well, it's easier to sort of, like, you know, just sweep that under the rug a little bit.

So... They just need to give him the Thalberg or something. Like, just give him a big honking honor. On the, on the, on the, on the telecast. On the telecast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's just like, he has as many Oscars as Billy Elish, you know? Right.

There's an imbalance. Nick Velalanga. Billy Ilish and Nick Velalanga, both as equally, culturally, their cultural contributions are equal to each other. Billy Ilish and Nick Valolonga. That's, yeah. That's, I mean, Spielberg has, what, three? Like, that's, he also doesn't have enough. But, you know, that's how good with the other two are.

not um what else what else what else oh herbert ross directed two best picture nominees like that's the other that's um that's super badass i love that um the turn but the rules were such at this point i couldn't figure out when the rule changed and uh i guess you know oh could he not get nominated twice in director was that not allowed it was at this point not within the rules that he could have been nominated. Okay. So he could have theoretically gotten enough votes to get both, but he got nominated for the turning point. For a turning point and goodbye girl, but he just gets nominated for turning point.

Herbert Ross has a real, he's one of those. The thing with the 70s is that there's a Herbert Ross, there's a Martin Ritt, and there's something else. Is there a, like, a secret there's one where it's like a short R name, I feel like. There's, like, there's just a lot that I get confused at. But so Herbert Ross does, like, all the Neil Simon stuff. If you think of a Neil Simon movie, odds are Herbert Ross directed it, right? Where it's like Sunshine Boys and California Suite and a whole bunch of stuff. He directs The Last of Sheila, which the Last of Sheila bat side has gone up, so Jordan Hoffman.

I hope you see it when we put it up. He directed funny lady, but not funny girl. Although he was the choreographer and funny girl. So he's a choreographer-turned-director, so I also automatically like him. We like those. He's also famously a monster to all of the female stars of Steel Magnolias. Oh, no. Well, yeah.

So you go into the 80s. He directs Footloose. He directs Protocol, which is that movie where Goldie Hong goes to Congress. Secret of my success. Steel Magnolias. My Blue Heaven, which is the Nora Ephron script about the Goodfellas guy in Witness Protection, which I've seen, I think, but like I remember almost none of with Steve Martin and Rick Moranis.

He directs, or no, he produces soap dish. He directs a movie that I think nobody else remembers but I do called Undercover Blues where Dennis Quaid and Kathleen Turner play like undercover cops and they are married and Stanley Tucci. And they have a baby. And Stanley Tucci is the bumbling assassin who I think he's playing like Middle Eastern.

There was a while there for they were like, Stanley Tucci could be any nationality. And we're like, he, I feel like he, Tony Shaloo. He had the Tony Shalup thing going on for a while, yeah. Stanley Tucci, he can be a towel. But it was very slapsticky the way what they would like, and they like had like a baby on like the little baby Bjorn. And they were just like a real look who's talking era poster. It really, really is.

Two of them and they've all got shades on. Yeah. They're both incredibly charming, Kathleen Turner and Dennis Quaid in this movie. I will tell you what. And then his final. We have a Kathleen Turner movie at something. We should. We should.

Oh, yeah. His final film is very important to me. It's boys on the side. And for as much as he may have terrorized his female co-steroids, I think Mary Louise Parker was like, spoke at his funeral or something like that. So, yes, speaking at his funeral were Barbara Cook, Arthur Lawrence, Marcia Mason, Mike Nichols, and Mary Louise Parker, a virtual who's who of folks. So speaking of Mike Nichols, the goodbye girl was originally supposed to be a movie that he made with Robert De Niro and like two weeks into filming, they just scrapped. Oh, what could have been. Because De Niro couldn't be funny.

What could have been? He also directed Chris's favorite movie where Maggie Smith says the F slur a bunch of times, California Suite. California. Oh, California Suite, California Sweet. So Maggie Smith and Michael Cain film their Oscar scenes from California Suite before this Oscar ceremony starts. Like they film at the Oscars. That's incredible. For this movie that takes place at an Oscar ceremony.

And then they present supporting actor together. I wish they would. And then the next year, she wins for that role. That's like how Drew Barrymore and Jimmy Fallon film scenes for that Red Sox movie at the World Series. Yeah. Did they do it at sporting events? But like, you know, like Glenn Close presenting it in and out. That's not a real Oscars.

Oh, they should have done that at the real Oscars, though. Definitely. When Michael Steven Seaghan admitted to that. When Michael Douglas was in the Cinematrix, it's not primary urges. What is the, what is his fake movie in and out? Michael Douglas's? That would be a great trivia question. Is it primary urges?

What a great movie. In and Out. Oh, I say, okay, I say what a great movie, and what I mean is, what a weird movie that is very enjoyable to watch that I don't know what it says about homosexuality at all. And yet, in and out? Yes. Yeah. It's very conflicted. It is like the Will and Grice Urte.

It's very conflicted about, like, how it feels about how it's. Do you have to have been, like, sentient in the 90s to get anything out of it? Like, if you showed it to someone born in 2005. It should be illegal to show this movie to any. who is younger who is like younger like who is not an older millennial or older like it should be it will immediately inspire a piece about uh how gay men are presented only as sexless uh beings you know yes and yet it ends with a conga line to the village people's macho man and like debby reynolds how many movies do that not darn enough so i'm just saying i mean when i finally watched the

Yental last year. I had, she was too old for Yental. Ernie Sabella's great contributions to the culture are Pumba, the Save by the Bell episodes where they go to the beach club, and she was too old for Yentel. She was too old for Yentl. That's the Ernie Sabella canon right there. God bless that man. Can we do it out as the exceptions in the future? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You heard it here first, folks. That's That's what we're doing. I feel like I've called my shot on future episodes on the air a lot.

We keep doing this. Well, right now we've got like about four movies lined up to you because I know what I want to do in November already. Okay. But yes. So maybe I don't know. We'll show up on the Ancler podcast and we'll talk about something else under this general umbrella. Yeah, and that has to go behind the Patreon. We can't share our 90s era thoughts.

No, we can't disrespect Joan Cusack like that. We have to... No, no, of course. I mean, it's like... It's the greatest nomination of the 90s, in some ways. It's a very good one. All right, do we want to round back to New York, New York, just to sort of...

I'm trying to think of what else I wrote down because I definitely had some thoughts about this film. We didn't really talk about the happy ending sequence, which is very... I mean, like, we talked about... about Liza being in, you know, Judy's shadow a little bit. And the sequence that that immediately recalls to me is the extended scene, the extended musical sequence that's like song upon song upon song in a star is born. Yes, yes. But it's kind of like that. Oh, well, and also,

the plot does not not recall a star is born on, you know, several friends. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, you mentioned the boardroom earlier. Like, I think it's all really gorgeous, but like that scene where it's the, you know, the camera pans down that big green table. It kind of looks like that. All of a sudden, it's technical color a little bit. And it's, it's just so, like the visual language of it is so great. It's so indebted to the actual four days. But then there's really interesting stuff going on in the middle of it. Like, I just I do really love, I really do love the sets. You mentioned the wedding chapel that looks like it's right out of it happened one night where it's like, and to me it just looks like this thing that like exists in a

dream scape where like if you like the world doesn't exist more than like 40 yards in any direction from you know where they are at that point and it's just this isolated little chapel and of course they're having an argument and um i just i i i like the way that this movie exists away from everything else you know what i mean it's just it's very um I don't know. Again, like, coming from Scorsese, coming from Mr. New York, right? You know, like Mr. New York City.

And for a movie that is called New York, New York, and has the now defining song about New York, right? That would be this artificial on purpose, I find delectable. Like, I love that idea that it's just like it's an imagined space. And it, like, a lot of it actually doesn't take place in New York, that New York is this sort of ideal

that they have to find. you know what I mean, where they can find success and they, you know, return to. And can I also say, like, Liza Minnelli singing The Man I Love is one of those things where it's just like, you want to like bliss me out and just sort of just like, it's, it's so pleasing to my ear. It's so just. That's how I feel about the world goes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's probably, I think that makes a lot of sense too. But, man. To talk about sets for a second, like, I'm not sure they go to the same nightclub twice. It's like they're constantly in these different spaces. But the one with all the red neon that then he gets kicked out in the like... The hall of mirrors. Light bulbs. Right, light bulbs.

Right. Yes. Yes. And then like immediately after that, there's like this really like floral one with like it looks like it's in Cuba or something. Like the Copa Cabana for Goodfellas becomes so famous. But like he is really getting toward that in these like really. And there's so many people in all of these scenes. I just kind of imagine The dance floors that he has to traverse To storm the stage and find her

I mean the U.S.O in the beginning is so many people Like it's just The money is on the screen Like you said it costs $14 million It looks like it costs $50 Oh we promised to talk about Mary Kay Place too for a second Oh yeah Who like shows up all of a sudden

She turns around on stage and it's Mary Kay Place And like her face looks exactly the same You know what I mean? So it's just like oh my friend Mary Kay Place is here I know But like her face is so small and Lizes is just so big. So the minute you see her, you're like, oh, you're not the same.

Well, and it's just, yeah, well, and it's, yeah, she embodies that kind of, you know, whatever, like reduced salary grade. Yeah. And she's not in it for very much, but I'm happy that she's there. The past two times that I watched this, I was like, next category's night, the Scorsese stars category when it comes up. A M-A-K-R-P, three options for you. That's right. I love that. Yeah, the music's all sort of fantastic.

The old stuff, the new stuff, like, well-chosen standards. There's one more tiny thing I wanted to talk about. Like, right at the very beginning, like, he's gone home from the U.S.O thing. And he's, like, going to his firescape, and there's, like, a sailor and a woman dancing, like, doing a ballet kind of in the street life. It's just, it's kind of the one moment that's not real until you get to the very ending. It's so beautiful. I don't know if, like, originally there had been more moments like that that would kind of break the fourth wall. But it's such a lovely, graceful little thing that kind of, you know, doesn't ever really recur again.

Can we talk about the other connection to Max Katie, which is the shirt, the floral shirt that he's wearing at the very beginning? Oh, God, and that huge tracking shot in the crowd with a neon arrow that points down to him. It's such a show-offy, Scorsese thing at that point. But, man, it's good. Do you think he ever served in the military? Do you think he's lying? I never thought about it until you brought it up in the plot description. And now, of course, I think he's lying.

Yeah. Like, absolutely. Yes. We talked about this when we did 100 years, 100 snubs last year, about New York, New York, and the sort of the Frank Sinatra absconding of it all, which I'm of two minds, because I do really love the Frank Sinatra version of it. And that was obviously, like, the one that I heard first. But it's really hard to, like, once you sort of, like, watch this movie and know that this is, like, what this

song was written for, and then you watch Liza perform it. And then it's like, well, wait a second. Like, Frank Sinatra's not even from here. You know what I mean? Like, he's from New Jersey. Wait, where was Liza Borden? I don't care. But, like, he doesn't get home field advantage because he's close to New York. Like, I'm sorry. This isn't horseshoes. We don't give points for being close enough. Listen, Carrie Mulligan wasn't born there either. Liza Manelli was born at Cedar Sinai in Los Angeles. 100%.

That's the easiest bet in creation is where was Liza Minnelli born? Of course, she was born in Cedar, Sinai. That's stamped on her ass somewhere. No, but Lises should be the definitive version. Liza should be the one that they play at Yankee Stadium. Like, this is an injustice. This is a cosmic injustice that... It occurred to me.

closest thing to this might be, I will always love you because that originates with a different movie and with Dolly Parton, who is iconic in her, right? But then much becomes completely absorbed by the bodyguard, I think. And I think it'll have warmer feelings toward Whitney Houston and Frank Sinatra. But it's, you know, Whitney at least went to the effort of like making a whole movie to put her stamp on that. You know what I mean? Where it's just like, yeah. You know, like, you know, again, Sinatra laid it down with his cover. I'm not taking anything away from that. But, like, it does feel like there is, I don't know, restitution that needs to be paid to Eliza for this. Cultural restitution.

All right. Do we want to get into the IMDB game? What? Christopher. Read us those rules. Friend. All right. So every episode, we end with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for.

If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints and yelling at each other in cars. Indeed. That is the IMDB game. Katie, this is not your first rodeo, to quote Joan Crawford through Faye Dunaway. You know how this goes. Would you like to guess first or give first, and who do you want to guess or give to or from?

I will give first, and I will give to you, Joe, for... Okay. Katie will give to me. I will give to Chris, and then Chris will give to Katie. I want to give first so I can just, like, get it done. All right. Then not know what's happening. Hit me.

Okay, so we did not mention one other big name who shows up in this movie, which is Casey Kasem. Yes. Shows up at the very end as a radio DJ. So I'm not giving you Casey. I was going to say, holy shit. But I went down his IMDB to see what else he had been in. And he was also in Mr. Wrong, the Ellen DeGeneres Romcom, in which she co-starred with Bill Pullman. I'm giving you Bill Pullman.

Okay, two jump scares. Casey Kasem jump scare, Ellen jumps scare, but now, okay, I get to do Bill Pullman. You can land somewhere safe. Independence Day. Independence Day is correct. Independence Day resurgence. Unfortunately, also correct. I'm surprised you.

It went directly to that. Okay. While you were sleeping. No, not on there. Tragedy upon tragedies. Storm the gates. The hottest furniture, man. I know, we need to fix this.

Sleepless in Seattle. No, also incorrect. The rom-coms have been disrespected. I know. We need Lewis Pullman to make up for this and do more rom-coms. Your years are 1987 and 19-19. Well, 1987. Well, 1987 is my beloved spaceballs.

Mm-hmm. Spaceballs, which I saw before I ever saw Star Wars. He plays Lone Star. Oh, you saw that before Star Wars. That's very funny. Yeah, but I, like, knew of Star Wars, so I got, I don't know. I don't think I got it. Name a more iconic for some Bill Pullman, Joan Rivers, John Candy, and Daphne's

Iniga from El Rose Place. Okay. I love people who have seen spaceballs before Star Wars because I remember showing spaceballs to my cousin because I loved it and I thought she would like it. She's like, oh, you should see Starlight. I've got a movie for you. I said, what's that? Wait, did she suggest the Phantom Menace or did she suggest, like, actual 97 Star Wars?

No, no, this was pretty phantom. Oh, okay, okay. All right, what was the other year besides 87? 1997. Bill Pullman, 97. Is it Lost Highway? It is Lost Highway. Wow.

The Lynchheads were up. I guess. The Lynchheads and the. the Independence Day resurgence heads. I'm not sure what to make of those guys. Man, okay. Interesting known for, though. I know. All right. All right. Justice for the rom-coms. Christopher. Yeah. This is a little bit of a come-up ins. You were, you were a little rude to one Mr. Tony Goldwyn, director of Ezra earlier in this episode. Oh, no. And since Ezra is the most recent movie on Robert Teniro's

IMDB, I'm going to ask you to give the known for for Tony Goldwin. All acting credits. Listener, this episode is brought to you by Bleaker Street Films and Aswell. You win. No television, by the way, so no scandal.

Wow. No scandal. Well, Ghost. Ghost. Ghost, by the way. No directing credits. No directing credits. Ghosts, we've talked about this.

Shirtless Tony Goldman and Ghosts was a very formative moment for me and I imagine a generation of people Go on okay so Tony Goldwyn it's really hard because all I can think of is scandal yeah like the image of him as a president makes you think like oh he's just been like a movie president for a while yeah and like then I think of 13 days

and that's not him that's Bruce Greenwood was a real Tony Goldwood vibe. And then I only think of Bruce Greenwood stuff. Okay. What? What else was he like a scumbag in? That's along the lines of ghost.

Um, oh, no, he's in Capote. No, that's Bruce Greenwood. Sorry, Tony. It's crazy this candle's not on there. Yeah, that's very wild. It is. It is. It is.

Not on there. Which tells me that it's big movies on there. That, like, would be bigger than a TV show. Some of them are. Some of them are definitely not. Oh, no. You're going to read every single mean thing about Tony Goldwyn. I was going to say, I like, listen, I stand up for a walk on the moon.

Walk on the Moon's great. I love a walk on the moon. Love on the moon is great. God, this is bad. I may have to just forfeit and get up to my years. Do you want to? And get some hints. Yeah.

Okay. I'll just say scandal. Scandal. Yeah, not scandal. Your years are 2003, 2011, and 20203. Wow. Something from last year? It's not Ezra.

Not Ezra. Is he in Ezra? I don't think he is. We'll never know. What was he in last year? What indeed? Was it like a best picture nom? Or any of these best picture nominees?

One of them is? 2003, 2011, and 20203. One of them is a best picture nominee. One of them is a best picture nominee. one of them is a nominee in the acting categories and one of them was never mentioned in connection to the Oscars at all.

Is that the 2020-3 movie? No, that's the 2011 movie. Okay. The 2011 movie is got to be like a Fast and the Furious type. It's not, but like it stars somebody who was in a couple of those movies. Thin Diesel.

No. Whiter. Paul Walker. No. Lest white? Bauder. Oh. Jordana Brewster.

Mailer. Great. I talked over the balder hint, which might have been. Oh, yeah, I said balder. Oh, the rock. No, the rock's not white. Who else is bald in those movies? Pretty famously bald in other movies as well.

Yeah. What else is ball? Britisher. Oh, Stathom. Yes. A crank? Not crank. Crank two.

Not crank two. Can I give a hint? Yes. The transporter. The title of this movie is someone who might show up in a fast and furious movie with us job. It's a job that you would need in a fast and furious movie. The usher. No.

The driver. No. But what does the driver need when the mechanic? The mechanic. Yeah, you go. The mechanic. There you go. All right.

Okay, so there's an acting nominee, and then there is a Best Picture nominee. Which was also a multiple acting nominee. Oh, okay. It's not 2003 unless he is somehow in, like, Mystic River. He's not in Mystic River. Okay. He is the Old Mountain. Not, well, yes.

And Tony Goldwyn as commander in Master. Wait, is Tony Goldwyn in? House of Sand and Fogg? Nope, that's Ron Eldred. No, not House of Sand and Fog. Um, okay. He's not in Lord of the Rings.

He's not in Lost in Translation. He's not in Mystic River. He's in Sea Biscuit. Nope. Um, and he's not in Master and Commander. So it's an acting nominee from that year. It's not 21 grams, is it? No.

Okay. Um, It's not in America Not Whale Rider, it's not monster It's not something's got to give I'm so impressed with the determination This is a movie we would definitely be able to do for exceptions Okay

So like it had Best Picture Buzz And it did not get it And it did not pan out Big Big Star who was not the one who was nominated It's been written about in a recent book Oh Interesting by someone who was involved in the making of it.

Big, big star, big star. Huge. Yeah, one of the biggest. When I say movie star, you say Barbara. Oh, oh, you're gay, right. When I say movie star, you say... Nicole. Still too gay.

But, yes, Katie's giving you a... Keep going on that thought. Tom Cruise The Last Samurai The Last Samurai Okay Ed's way kind of I've got out this year

I haven't read it but I want to All right 2023 Best Picture nominee We've all talked about How it's harder to come up With last year's nominees Than

But I believe in you I believe in you He shows up in scenes Think of the setting Of where you think Where you imagine Tony Goldwyn to be The Oval Office

Well, you're writing that there's a government Yeah, that's more of what I mean. Congress, the halls of power. Governmental adjacent. Yeah. Okay, what was the governmental movie nominated for Best Picture last year? That would not be... Oh, was he in Oppenheimer?

Yeah, he's an Oppenheimer. You were too... Wow, Oppenheimer's already showing up for me. To notice Tony Goldman and all those. Making Blair is great enough. He's like, he's further back than Jason Clark. So, like, the Jason Clark making at the back of that room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

All right. Sorry, that was a very hard one, but. I'm sorry, Tony Goldman. I will make it up to you by paying good money to go see Ezra. Are you going to stand by that? A Bleaker Street films release only in theaters. Rose Burns in it. And Bobby Kennevalli, I think.

Yeah. All right. Katie is our guest. did not go as evil on you as Tony Goldwyn. I went with the best actor winner of the year that we are talking about Mr. Richard Dreyfus, who we

have somehow not done. Okay. Fascinating. All right, this is going to maybe test my 70s knowledge. How about Jaws? Correct. Okay. How about the goodbye girl? Correct. Okay. Close encounters?

Correct. Whoa! Are you going to be the ultra rare guest? She gets a perfect score. Okay. I feel like I'm going to get off rails here, but I'm just going to go with Mr. Holland's opus. Not a perfect score.

That's what I would have guessed also, Katie. That felt like the way to go. That felt like the way to go. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And now we're going to struggle on the Richard Dreyfus train here, because I felt like those are the obvious ones. Is he?

Hang on. Chris, this was a really good one to pay. Is he what about Bob? And we've never apparently done Richard Dreyfus. He is in What About Bob? Okay. But it's not What About Bob? You have to guess for me to tell you.

Oh, is it What About Bob? It is not What About Bob. Okay. He is. I know he and Bill Murray were so evil on the set of that movie. I cannot imagine how bad they were. But he's so funny in that movie. Like, genuinely Golden Globe nomination worthy is what I would say.

Not Oscar. I'm going to go that for. Well, no. It's music. It's a musical or comedy nomination. Dr. Leo Marvin. Your year is 1973. Oh, no.

So before Jaws. All 70s. All 70s for Richard Dreyfuss. I love that. So this is like one of his first movies has to be because he's like a teeny tiny baby. He's young. Is he in like American graffiti? He's conceivably 5'6 in this movie, which is why.

Chris, you didn't listen to. You listen to Katie. Sorry. Is he an American? graffiti. Correct. American Graffiti. Yay.

Okay. I was going to go last picture show next. Just like whatever those early 70s movie that just gather everybody. I've never seen

American graffiti. I think I should. I believe it's on Netflix. It's on Netflix. It is because I just added it to Vanity Fair is 25 movies to watch on Netflix right now.

I'm so glad that gig has outlived me. Poor Hillary has to put up with my gold brick and ass for that column. But it's a good thing to do. Oh, good.

Okay, I did better by Richard Dreyfus than I thought I would. All right. Katie, true delight doesn't begin to describe what it was like to have you back, especially for our miniseries. We could not properly celebrate the 70s without you. So thank you. And tell all our listeners all about the Ancler

and why they should go and subscribe to your newsletter and check it out. Yeah, I imagine this is going to air after May 21st. I don't know what day. It's going to air actually on May 23rd. Oh, well then. I have a podcast then at the Ancler as of May 21st

called Prestige Junkie, which is also the name in the newsletter. You should subscribe to both of them. The podcast will be me and various co-hosts, potentially including the two people I'm speaking to now

at various points. Tag about award season and also interviews. I talked to Lily Gladstone, heard of her for the first episode about Under the Bridge, which is really good and I don't think

as many people are watching and this should be and it's like it's on my list of things I want to watch before uh I mean it is worth watching even if it feels like a bummer which I know is like a tough endorsement to give um but yeah it's her and who it's Lily Gladstone is her and Riley Keogh who is um like the best like 90s cool girl you can possibly it's it really is kind of straight up your rally Joe um so yes go to theankler.com you can find the newsletter and the podcast subscribe to them support me in my new home I'm very excited to be there I'm like writing again I was editing just everyone for so long it's like a whole different thing so you can also like tell me

what you think I should write about because if there's anyone who I want to take advice from it's the listeners of this very pod truly you cannot keep a good one down so you could not keep Katie off of the podcast airwave that's true for long I can't just like keep crashing into here I have to go get my own thing oh I'm so glad I'm so so glad and I should tell people would follow me on social media too right that's yeah yeah yeah so yeah on Twitter and Letterbox at Katie Rich, K-A-T-E-Y-R-I-C-H, and I've got an Instagram that's Katie Rich talking that I don't really know what to put on,

but it's still there. I think that's it. All right. I'm going to go re-letterbox, New York, New York, I guess. Yeah, man. That's our episode. Y'all, if you want more, This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr

at ThisHad-O-Buzz.tumbler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at Had-O-O-Sker-Bus. our Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz and our Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Katie, you have already told us where we can find more of you. Chris, how about you do the same? Twitter and Letterbox at Chris Vile.

That's F-E-I-L. I am on Twitter and letterboxed at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance, Taylor Cole for our nifty theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get podcasts.

A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So once your husband stops throwing tables around your rehearsal, go and write us a nice review. That is all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more of us. Thank you.