This Had Oscar Buzz - 295 – Let Them All Talk

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

Say it with us: confusion! In our episodes where we have discussed 2020, one of the major conversations we’ve yet to really tackle is the confusion around what films would be considered theatrical while most of the country’s theatres were closed. This week’s film occupied that undefined space: Steven Soderbergh’s ensemble comedy Let Them All Talk. … Continue reading "295 – Let Them All Talk"

Oh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melan Hack, Millen Hacks, and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh. I kind of feel like I'm spending time with three almost like... Dinosaurs. No.

You believe Alice and her book determined your whole life? The consequences on my life of her actions were unacceptable. You want to go have a drink later? No, I can't. I just don't know who you are anymore. Does anybody trust you? We really lost each other. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast,

the only podcast making out in the rain to the callings wherever you will go. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my Queen Mary 2, Joe Reed. Hey, Mary. Hey, Mary.

I, from the top of this episode, I think the theme for this episode, I need a sound drop just from the beginning of Jada Essence Hall saying, confusion. Confusion. Because the whole reason we're able to talk about this movie. is because of what? Confusion. Confusion. We've done a number of 20-20 movies at this point. Yes.

And I feel like we haven't adequately talked about the extent to which streaming for a period made us very confused as to what would be Oscar eligible. Right. And some of that was... There's a lot of, there's a lot of other factors. Netflix has been, uh, creating confusion around this. Confusion. For years leading up to 2020, you know, in terms of things that played on Netflix, not everybody knew what they were putting in theaters and not, you know.

Well, and that when they would put things in theaters, they were just blackboxing. What is it? What, what's the title? Fourwalling? Four walling. Yes. The thing. Black boxing.

Um, four. whileing the movie. Yes, they were doing black box theater. Honestly, yes, that's literally, yes. Someone comes out holding a bald lamp and starts, I don't know, monologuing about Orson Wells or performing EOC. Stuff. But so you, you know, they don't really make money anyway, you know what I mean? Like there is no actual like box office take from them. But they have, you know, filed their requirements that the, Oscars have put out. They bought their own theaters and they were like, well, we're just going to completely insulate this experience because Ted Serendos is a maniac who wants to break the

system. Wants to kill theatrical distribution. He has made no-butt it's one of these like when people tell you who they are, believe them. Like, he wants to destroy theatrical filmmaking so that he can have the rubble all to himself. And yet there's an even worse. worse evil that we'll talk about in this episode, David Zazlov, who wants to destroy maybe everything, except for algorithm. He wants to destroy everything but money. To the extent that we should say, we're doing Steven Soderberg's, let them all talk on this episode. To the extent that, you know, Warner Brothers and Max and all this, they're just like dumping shit. They're not only, you know, fully filmed. films they're just not just dumping them they are burning them they are they are locking them in a vault and nobody can ever see them because otherwise they don't get their tax right off right but also things are being scrubbed from like this has happened for all streaming platforms you know uh you know when their home is a streaming platform and then the streaming platform gets rid of it

doesn't put it on the platform anymore so they can get sometimes type of tax write-off, et cetera. Yeah. In an effort of caution, I bought the DVD of this movie in case the likely event that David Zazlov says, fuck you, Steven Soderberg, we're going to make you a tax write-off now. You know how every year I talk about the somewhat absurdity of the fact that of all, whatever, trigger warning screener privilege, if you don't want to hear me talk about screenings, our DVDs. Just fast forward a couple minutes. I know that bothers some people. The fact that Netflix

is like weirdly the most reliable company when it comes to sending you DVDs, even though all of their stuff is readily available on Netflix. Remind me to stop complaining about that because now I do have DVDs for like all of these Netflix movies that could get, you know, memory hold at any point. You know what I mean? So at the very least, I have, you know, not the highest. quality and we'll probably degrade quickly over time or whatever, but I do have them on DVD. They have chilled out about that because they used to send like 20 documentaries from, you know, the first half of the year, most of which, you know, didn't get many people talking about it, but I don't know if you're going to get people to watch and talk about those movies.

If you send them in a heap of a bunch of other documentaries that don't exist, like, I do think Netflix has chilled a little bit because I haven't gotten that in a while. But Netflix is also apparently getting out of the awards game. I don't know to what extent I believe that.

I don't buy it. I think that is a cover for the fact that they are about to do... That they're about to have like no slate this year? Well, that they're about to have a very disappointing Emmy slate. And I say that knowing that like there's still the very real possibility, if not probability, that they will lead all networks and nominations because they have 8 billion shows and they get like nominations in all the weird rando reality categories and whatever. But in terms of like best drama, best comedy, their slate is thin. It's like it's the final season of the crown. They're going to do well with baby reindeer. I almost said baby Ripley and reindeer. Baby reindeer and Ripley. It is not baby Ripley. It is in fact- older than he should be Ripley, but we'll talk about that. Maybe. Baby Ripley is, you know, the baby who's like, who wants to go to the four seasons Venice? Me. Baby Ripley. Stab, stab, stabs to stab. Baby Ripley. Sorry, baby shark is in my lexicon because I have a nephew. There you go. There you go. You found it. But like, they're not going to do as well as they have in previous years. And could the crown win?

best drama, though, or is it going to be Shogun? It's going to be one of the two of them. I think it is probably going to be Shogun, but, like, I will never underestimate the ability of the Emmy is to make the safer choice.

Yeah. Make the choice for the thing that they have chosen before. So... Has FX won best drama since, like, Breaking Bad? Well, AMC was Breaking Bad. FX.1. Oh, never mind.

I don't know if FX has ever won. The thing about FX is they could win, they probably won't win all three. They very well are likely to maybe win best drama and best comedy, because the bear is winning best comedy. And if for some reason Fargo threads the needle and wins limited series over baby reindeer and whatever else, which like not inconceivable, you could get. FX getting all three, which would be. I hope that this is a rising tides, raise all boat situation, and what we do in the shadows finally

starts showing up, but it's not going to happen. If anything, it'll happen the next season, when it'll be the last season, but, like, this is the frustrating thing about the bear is, like, the bear is, like, the summer show that has translated to the Emmys,

and, like, there's so few shows that can make that happen. Even if you go back and look at Sex and the City, you're like, sex in the city didn't have as great of an Emmy history as we maybe think it did, and I think some of that has to do with it being a summer show. But it was nominated every single year, though, is the fifth. Sure. Like, it was always there in, you know, among the nominees. I think the air has maybe gone out of the what we do in the shadows balloon a little bit, but we'll see. Yeah. I mean, the last season was definitely not the best, but yeah. Anyway. Go subscribe to the gold rush newsletter on Vulture, and you can hear me. We talk about all of this at length. And Emmy nominations will be coming soon as of this episode airing.

Yeah, when does this episode air? Mid-June. Yeah, so we're still about a month away from Eni's Emmy nominations at this point. The confusion of this year of what would be Oscar eligible, and it ultimately kind of became whatever, anything, because- The Oscars were like. one year pause on rules. They decided to be like Bohemian for the year. And they were like, anything goes, man.

I don't know. No shirt, no shoes, no problem. And we are, we're allowing it all. And to the point where, as you mentioned before we started recording, you're like, remember how Hamilton like led the Golden Globes in nominations or whatever? Okay. Now, with Hamilton getting those globe nominations in the film categories, I was like, okay, I guess we're just, I was very,

I was very, what are we doing? I was like, I guess there's no rules. And that point made me feel much better about putting this movie that we're going to talk about on my top 10 list. And I know other critics did it and it got other critical attention, though. Like, this movie would have probably needed actual critical awards handed out to it. Uh-huh. To really break through that way.

way. Oh, I was talking on DM with Jonathan Braylock, who's one of the co-hosts of the Black Men Can't Jump in Hollywood podcast. And we were talking about, oh, it was, it arose from, he would DM me something about Cinematrix. And it was like, why does it discount? And I was like, all right, let's get into it. But we got to talking about what makes for a, what, what is a TV movie versus what is a theatrical movie these days? When like, they, like, they. can be, you know, both or neither or whatever. And we both sort of agreed that, like, so much of how I perceive this is purely based on vibes. And I just, I'm like a one-man Supreme Court if it, I know it when I see it kind of a thing, where I can look at a movie and be like, this movie is a movie and this movie is a TV movie. And like, don't ask me to, you know, define it much more so than like vibes. But, like, Let Them All Talk is a movie. Sophia Coppola's On the Rocks is a movie.

Jingle, Jamelton is not a movie. Christmas adventure or whatever the fuck. What was that called last year? Jingle jangle, good Christmas movie, though. But a TV movie. I don't think, no, that those songs were on the awesome short list. Vives. Me and me alone.

But your vibes are not always white is what I'm saying. Jingle jangle is a movie. says for me it's a TV movie but this is but my point is there are there you cannot codify this because there is all there's no rule what's that you can't make me pull up jingle jangle to look this up but look it up I'm doing it look it up um no but what I'm yeah jingle jangle was 20 20 so I guess jingle jangle kind of falls into that no man's land much like this movie does because if it's not 2020, it's harder. I think it's harder to make the argument for this movie. Which is an interesting thing to say in terms of what we do here and the year we're talking about on this episode.

But I think my larger point is that there is no, you cannot pass down a set of rules that can define these days what counts as a feature film versus a TV movie that a rule can satisfy, right? You can't say, well, it has to be theatrically produced because there are a bunch of movies that don't get, or theatrically distributed. There's a bunch of movies that don't get theatrically distributed that I think there are real movies. You can't say, Until the Academy comes forward and says, if you are going for Academy Award eligibility, you cannot go for Emmy eligibility. There is no rule. Sure.

Sure. I know that that makes things a little murky with documentaries. And I understand the documentaries are murky. It does make things murky with documentaries. You should be eligible for one or the other, even if you are a documentary. I also, though, feel like the Emmys are such a, like, catch basin for this kind of a thing. Where, like, if I miss out on Oscar nominations, at least I can try for the pittance that is the TV movie, you know, the Emmy Award. And certain things, like, we talked about how, like, we talk about how, like, bad education, the Corey Finley movie, that was Corey Finley, right?

Yeah. Got sort of caught in a no man's land of 2020 where it was originally going to be a theatrical. movie and then it turned got bought by HBO and was going to be a TV movie and then the Academy changed the rules that said that theatrical distribution was not necessary this year because it's COVID but by that point bad education had already aired on TV and like put its feet in the realm of TV awards so it like couldn't go back it was like it was a really really weird Meanwhile, it was a movie that absolutely would have gotten Hugh Jackman an Oscar nomination if it had been a theatrical movie. Who do you think he bumps out, though? This is my question. Because I don't disagree with you, but I also feel like there were some people being like, bad education was one of the best movies of 2020. Of course, it would have been like a Best Picture nominee and Best Actor and Best Supporting. And I'm like, I don't know if bad education goes as far as people think it would as a feature film.

I mean, the thing is- You're not wrong about Jackman, though, because I feel like he, he was strong enough, but, like, who does he bump out? Well, 2020 very quickly narrowed down to a few movies, and I think some of them are movies that are, that wouldn't be Oscar nominees if it wasn't for the year that they were released. And, like, no shade to sound of metal, but I do think that that is sound of metal, because Amazon was basically dumping that movie before COVID happened, and then it becomes their major The two most vulnerable nominees that year were Riz Ahmed from Sound of Metal and Stephen Young from Minari, and I'm much happier with those two on the best actor ballot than I would have been for Hugh Jackman as good as his performance was.

I hear you on those, but they were like winning critics prizes, or at least Riz Ahmed was, and Mank, for a movie that has... I know you don't like Mank, but like, I'm not going to... I think... I don't know. I don't think that's a performance people were super excited about. I agree, but on the, like, but on the, well, first of all, it's a Halo nomination for Oldman after Darkest Hour. Second of all, on the, like, Frost Nixon corollary of who loves this thing, there are just, I think there's a silent majority of people out there who, like, very sort of, like, mainstream, you know, down the middle choices and would. still go for Oldman over Ahmed or Young.

That's, I mean, that's fair. I still just feel like that is something about the ethos of bad education. For let them all talk, though, I think we can maybe safely agree if this movie had a best actress and a best supporting actress nomination, probably better

for both of those lineups. Best actress is so poachable this year. Let's, let's renew, Let's, it's so, we're, we're absolutely doing the end of the podcast first, whatever. I, it still abases me 300 episodes in that I'm like, we can't figure out how to, like, put the, we are not, we are not, we are not prisoners to a structure here on this show. We are not prisoners. We are not taken by your eyes. We are, we are not prisoners.

We have not been hypnotized. Okay. Anyway, best actress, 2020. It is your three-peat, not three-peat, of course, the three-peat is three in a row. It is your third-time win for Francis McDormon in Nomadland. Other nominees, Viola Davis and Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, Andra Day, Andra or Andra? I believe it's Andra. I so get self-conscious about saying Andra because that's a very Buffalo flat A kind of a thing.

And I'm like, is that just me. Maybe she's from Buffalo. Maybe she's where Andrea Day is from. Did you see that there is a, um, Uh, Buffalo native on the new season of Survivor, the upcoming season of Survivor. I can't get, everybody is trying to decipher this whole cast, and I think largely because, uh, because there's 20 different podcasters on this coming season. Have you noticed that, by the way? Um, I can't get excited for a reality show that I'm not getting for six months. I'm sorry.

Well, fair. Okay. Viola Davis. That's probably not even done filming. Like, No, they're out there filming right now, in fact, because that's why everybody is filling in for John Lovett. Oh, I said John Favreau, and I meant John Lovett. John Lovett, yes. Anyway. Honestly, John Favro would not do well on Survivor. I don't think John Lovett's going to do well, but I love him. I can't wait to see how it goes.

When he was in the preview being like, I went camping once as a Cub Scout, I did not do well. I'm like, yeah, me. That's very, very me-coded, but I also am not about to go on Survivor. One bug on this person, and I am. out of there. That's really true. That's really true. When Ceree was afraid of leaves, I'm actually, it's funny because we make fun of Ceree being afraid of leaves. And her point was, I don't know what's going to be under those leaves when I pick those up. And it's like, yeah, that's me. Okay, anyway, Francis McDormant, Viola Davis,

Andrea Day, Vanessa Kirby for Pieces of a Woman, Carrie Mulligan for Promising Young Woman. I love Vanessa Kirby in a lot of things, but like, I hate that movie. Knock her out of there and put Merrill in there. And that... One million percent. That category gets a lot better. I also feel like a smart campaign for Candice Bergen. And I know that, like, people loved Maria Baclova and Borat that year.

And so I'm not naive enough to think that, like, you knock her out. Honestly, the person that would probably knock out would probably be Amanda Seifred from Mank. And I would not like that. But Amanda's got her whole career ahead of her. And Candice Bergen... really Candice Bergen's also just we haven't started talking about

we'll wait until the plot description Candice Bergen is next fucking level in this movie she's great she's great Merrill is too this is an incredible

Mary Ann is too yeah the thing about Merrill is that Merrill it's such an underrated Merrill performance I can't even get into it we will get into it

because I agree with you Merrill's kind of I don't want to say like cock blocking herself But in a way, because this is the same year as the prom, you know, and like Merrill being one of the things that even dissent, the people who hated the prom were like, Merrill does a good job. Merrill's good number. Yeah. I think Merrill's fine in the prom.

Merrill's not bad in the prom. She's not bad in the prom. I think it is beneath her. Of course it's beneath her. It's beneath her. It's beneath Nicole Kidman. And I understand the people who, I understand. the defenders of the prom as

I get it, I get what is appealing about that musical it's beneath Merrill to be in Ryan Murphy's The Prom. Like, yeah, the best things about that musical are not that character, you know, the best songs are not her songs. I can't remember a single song from the prom, but that's my problem

with a lot of modern day new musicals is they don't have songs that sort of reach escape velocity. Like, that's for love it or hate Wicked, but those songs jump out of that musical and you end up, like, putting them on playlist and stuff like that. Right, right, right. I say this as somebody for whom The Wizard and I showed up on a playlist as I was listening just yesterday. So, um, F slur. I mean, listen, I've never beaten those allocations, so. Oh, you just, I'd so hard.

So hard, your computer froze. I remember from the prom. I remember the like act one finale song, which is, of course, ruined by James Gordon anyway, and Ariana DeBose's solo. Those are the songs that I like. The one that all the, speaking of Fsler, the one that all the Fsler's latched onto, of course, was Zaz. Zaz. But again, I couldn't sing, I couldn't sing you a bar from Zaz. But you don't sing that song, though.

It's a dance number, you know. Okay. Well, I couldn't dance you a bar for Zess, either. Anywho. All of this to say, like, this, and I feel like maybe doing the awards conversation, because some people are going to be like, why are you doing this movie? It's a TV movie. I think it's good to have all of this up front. It's just not. Well, and it's Soderberg. So it's like, even if it was by the strict law of the letter television. film. It is Soderberg. It is next level. And it's not even like, I can't even come up with a comparison, but there are certain TV movies that are on a cinematic level. Yeah. That like, and like now it's even more complicated. You can be snobby, Chris, and just say there are better movies. Yeah, like Mike Nichols is Angels in America. It's a TV movie slash mini-series.

But like, you can put that on a theatrical screen and it looks legit like it's supposed. First of all, in this era where we're doing more and more rep screenings of things, why hasn't somebody programmed a six-hour Angels in America? Because brother, I would be there. And gotten us to intro it. I don't know. I would show up. My butt would be seated.

I would have snacks and, you know, throw in a bathroom break maybe between parts one and two. I would have to give, I would have to give a. speech at the beginning and be like, listen to F slurs. We're not Rocky Horroring this. You are not repeating your favorite lines along with the screen. Everybody's going to sit down and shut the fuck up. And we're going to watch this on a screen like a gift that it is. If you're telling me that I cannot also repeat, I can't speak along the angel's monologue in that. You can't. Sorry. Nope. You're telling me that you can't get an entire theater full of homosexuals. doing night flight to San Francisco?

If we get the opportunity to watch Mike Nicholses, Tony Kushner's Angels in America on a movie screen, we are shutting the fuck. Wait, wait, wait. Now you know that my fantasy, oh, and by the way, I have a lottery ticket burning all. Yes, our rep theater. When I win...

All Pride Month. When I win Mega Millions, what we will do is we will do true repertory screenings, and what it'll be is four nights a week, we'll do Mike Nichols' Angels in America quiet as a church mouth.

Three nights a week, we will do rowdy screenings of Angels in America, which will include costumes, speak-alongs, a night flight to San Francisco monologue contest, and all of the trimmings and all of the all that you would ever want out of the Angels in America a rowdy experience.

What do you say? I say happy pride month. Oh, boy, we have moved far afield. We would be booking this movie in a theater, and you know what? It would look better than it ever looked on anyone's fucking TV screen. Hell yeah. Okay, so of the Soderberg... Nothing gets under my skin, by the way.

Sorry, I know you moved on, but I just... Nothing gets under my skin more than people being like, I've got a good TV at home. Why do we need to go to a theater? Bitch, your TV is not that good. Like, I'm sorry. Unless you are, like, so wealthy that you have an entire room dedicated to your fucking precious little TV. It's not as good.

And honestly, I don't think you have the sound set up for it that you think you do with your little tiny little surround sound. Oh, I've got surround sound. See this tiny little speaker? And I put it over here and I got surround sound. Fuck you, man. No, you don't. You do not have a good enough. You do not have the home theater set up that you think you do.

Home theater is an insulting term. But my rebuttal to that is, is most movie theaters in this country are dog shit. Like, they're, they're, I know, I know, I know, I'm trying to make a point. But when people are like, they don't bring the house lights down all the way. I know. There's like, we're not, we're not literal poop on the floor. Like, I understand it and people deserve better movie-going experiences than that. On the subject of I would be a better billionaire than most billionaires, give me a billion dollars, and I will make movie theater's palaces once again.

I will, that will be my contribution, my lasting contribution to culture. The worst theatrical experience is still better than the best home TV experience. That's what I'll say. But people do deserve better theatrical experience. One million percent they do. You know, 90 percent of the tickets that are being sold in this country. yeah um let them all no the point that i was going to say we should save to the other side of the conversation when we get into the career let them all talk by the way is the is the uh tagline to my angels

in america rowdy screenings continue you can get the let them all talk experience or you can get the chris file shut the fuck up shut i'm sorry would you like a shut the fuck up ticket or a let them all talk ticket yeah house one let them all talk screening House two Shut the fuck up Screening of Angels in America One is doing Parastroika

The other is doing Millennium Approachians Oh wow No that would be Yes And then they flip And then they flip Yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Give me my money Actually no Because like Tony Kushner says Those are very different plays That need very different Presentation styles I think But the movie

Millennium Approaches You need a silent audience And then for Parastroika it's more appropriate to have the rowdy screening. Except that I wouldn't be able to speak along with Roy Cohn's you want to be nicer, you want to be effective monologue. Nor Belize is, no wait, when does Belize do the Democracy in America monologue? That is Perestroika.

Okay. God. You know, I love being the basic F-sler, who, post that on the 4th of July every time. Like it's become so basic for like so many of us gave people to post the Belize. I hate

America Lewis. I hate the Scottrad's speech on 4th of July. Yeah. Yet here we are. I feel like we need to pivot those people into posting Barbara Barry at the end of Nashville as the new version of that. I will do

that this year. Let them all talk. Yes. a Stephen Soderberg contractual obligation for Max. We'll talk about it on the other side. That's the thing I was going to say, the Soderberg Max movies, of which Magic Mike's Last Dance was originally supposed to be. This is by far the best of them.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Even though they're all good. No, they're mostly good. No, they're all good. I'm the, no, I. No sudden move is the least interesting of them. I know it's annoying to you because all of the show. Straight-nail critics loved the shit out of it and ignored this.

It's so boring. I'm sorry. I don't think it's boring. I just, I think it's, to me, it's the clear weakest of the four. That, a movie with that many men and the one woman of any note that you're going to give me is her. Is. Ladies and gentlemen, her. Ladies and gentlemen, brain dead Julia Fox.

Like, I'm sorry. Who's- Joe hates Julia Fox. Awful. Awful in that movie. I feel like you will never. You will never even ironically appreciate anything from Julia Fox because you're a hatred for uncut Gems runs so deep.

Weirdly, here's the thing. Uncut Gems is the one thing I think she's good in. I think she is an absolutely exhausting celebrity and I think she's really bad in no sudden moves. I don't remember her in no sudden move, to be completely honest, though I do think she's not a good celebrity. She's not. You're not Lady Gaga.

Not everyone can perform celebrity. Like, anyway, we're not here to talk. We're here to talk about real celebrities, notably Merrill Street. Yeah, exactly. How many Merrill's have we done? 11. This is 11 now. We did our 10-timer.

It's only 11? Extravaganza with a Prairie Home Companion. We haven't talked about Merrill in 91 episodes. It's been a minute. Oh, right, because Nicole Kidman has passed Merrill at this point. Yes, she has. Yes. I think we may be burnt.

ourselves out on Merrill. So if we're back to Merrill, I'm so happy this is the one we're talking about. And we still do have some Merrill's to come. Like, I feel like we will eventually do the Manchurian candidate, and I feel like we will eventually, honestly, we'll probably do the problem at some point on a long enough timeline just because we don't have enough musicals to do.

Yes. The thing that I thought of watching this movie is, obviously you listen to Les Culturistas and I'm sure a lot of our listeners do as well where they've talked about where they've talked about the actress or star game right which I think a lot of us have internalized Merrill a very easy both like yeah you know and I don't think you have to I would I would defy anybody to make any argument to the counter of that that she's either one or the other. She is 100% both.

I mean, I think this movie gives us three of them because I think Diane Weist and Candice Bergen are also both. I mean, certainly in this movie, they are giving... The star meter is going like a Geiger counter, just sort of like... Diane Weist, I understand that there's probably some people

who are just saying, no, just actress, but watch Edward Scissorhands and try to tell me that she's not a star. Watch the end of the bird cage when she's... when she's in drag. Come on. What is the thing she say is like, the guy asked her to dance and she's just like, I've never danced with a man before.

It's always the first time. All respect to Gemma Chan, not including her in this conversation. No. Jima Chan, who I like in this movie, maybe as much as I've liked her in anything else, she should be in Morseudelberg movies. Yes.

She's like a good, she's like a perfect Soderberg character actress in that like Soderberg can make this person who I think is sometimes very mannered on screen, but like usually in broader material than this, just very, very natural. And like the dynamic she has to have with Meryl, the dynamic she has to have with Lucas, I buy and believe all of it. I don't imagine you saw this, but did you ever see the miniseries humans, the British miniseries humans, which was one of the first things that sort of brought her to attention, where she played. I did not see that. An android who sort of attained consciousness or whatever. She's quite good in that, I will say. But again, a role that pretty much invites mannered, you know, acting and, you know, makes it part of the whole thing. Before we get into, like, a plot description of this movie, I just want to say what a pleasure this movie was at a very dark time.

And at a very dark time of, like, we didn't want to think about people being on cruises. Oh, I know. The fact that this movie... Like, weren't there still people, like, trapped on cruises because they never got to, like, port at this point in COVID, you know? It's some... It's quite improbable. But you're absolutely right. that this movie was a real bomb at a time when...

B-A-L-M, not B-O-M-B. No, a balm. A-B-A-L-M. Yeah, it was just... So this was December 2020, and I remember at least some of the other movies that I was watching at the time. Even the ones that I liked were, like, I watched Tenet on a sorry award screener

streaming award screener again I don't care how good I think that's how a lot of people watch I don't care how good my television was there was no there was no I hadn't truly seen Tenet till I went and saw it on a big screen after the pandemic after a lockdown ended this year right? No I didn't see it this year

I saw it at the Museum of the Moving Image in New York when I returned to New York in 2021 so they were showing it there so friend and former guest, Adam Grossworth, took me to the Museum of Moving Image because... It's a pretty nice place. I like it. I didn't think that, like, in my very, very short New York trip, I was like, oh, I won't have time to do that. It's in the middle of, like, not in the middle of nowhere, but like, it's not convenient to what else was going on. And on my way to the airport, he was like, nope, if you

have a half hour, you have time. It's perfect on your way to the airport if you fly out of LaGuardia. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Whenever I would look at apartment listings in Astoria, I would always be, you know, well, if I'm going to live in a story, I want to be walking distance from the museum of the moving image just so I can like take advantage of that or never. But anyway, so I watched like Tenet around this time, which is like a movie I loved, but it's tense. I watched Soul around this time, which was a movie that I loved, but which like I cried throughout like the entire last half of that because all that movie is is about like taking stock of your life. And, like, I, you know, I turned 40 in lockdown, and it was very much, I think I texted a lot of people around that time being like, well, it's all over. I had up until now to sort of like make something of my life. I haven't.

And now, like, there was a very definite sense for me during COVID of, like, the finish line has arrived. You know what I mean? that, like, this was... This guy this year. Yeah. I'm like, it's all done. Can I tell you, though? I will say, um,

getting on anti-anxiety meds and sort of baking a couple positive changes in my life. That did, did, um, uh, change that outlook quite a bit. So, um... I appreciate the advice, baby. But anyway, um, uh, so the fact that you could put on with that, um, uh, so the fact that you could put on, let them all talk. Can I tell you another movie that did that? Barb and Star go to Vista Del Mar. That served a real similar purpose. Because the Barb and Star go to Vista Del Mar was another

one that were like, is it eligible? Is it not eligible? That's a great example. Once again, lady friends go to vacation destination. Like maybe. The day that that hit VOD and every single gay person was like, yes, here is my $20. And we all. That is a movie that never, ever, ever got annoying, no matter how many people tweeted memes about it. Like, it was, it still, to me, I think, has retained every bit of its charm. I should watch that movie tonight. Like, honestly, they should give us a sequel, frankly. It's of all the dumb things that we do get sequels to, I can't believe we never got Barb and Star go-to-X-Y-Cquel is going to cost a hundred million dollars or like, even.

50% like just give just like you're you'll make money on it there is definitely a fan base for that movie like yeah just do it barb and star go to i don't know anything that rhymes with vista dalmar like we can do it we can manage to manage it um all right um anything else we want to say before we jump into it at the 40 minute mark no let's set let's set some ground table But, like, we've already done a good chunk of it. We have. We're going to spend time talking about this. We haven't fafed around. We've got some stuff. Yeah.

Before we do that, Joe, would you like to talk about our Patreon? Oh, well, yes, I would. Everybody out there, if you've not already joined up for our Patreon, which is called this head Oscar Buzz, turbulent brilliance, you can do so for $5 a month. There is, can I, did I tell you, they're building a Taco Bell within walking distance of me? So now I will be able to get a cheesy gordita crunch for five. Which is, I think if we set, if we set a threshold of if we get this many Patreon subscribers, you will try a Baja blast and you'll do it on Mike.

Yes. Yeah. I love that I've set myself the low, low bar of what if I drink a Baja blast? How exotic. Oh, my God. What if I have a beverage? What if I sip a taste? Also, it's not like anybody.

No, you'll keep them honest. I was going to say I could easily fake that on Mike, but like you would not, you would not allow me to get away. with that, so. No, I'll have a Baja Blast myself. You know what I'm drinking right now? I bought a Wegman's brand cold brew in just like a little bottle, like, which seems to me to be cheating, but honestly, maple bourbon flavor. It's not actual bourbon, but like the flavor is like maple bourbon flavor is good. And coffee? I don't know. I don't know. Chris, I don't want my coffee to taste like coffee. What am I? Maple. is maple that different than vanilla or hazelnut my other two-go two flavors?

I mean, maple with a bourbon is fine, but with a coffee, mm-mm, mm-mm, isn't that bad. All right, talk about our Patreon. This had Oscar was Turbill and Prulence. For that $5 a month, for the cost of a cheesy gordina crunch, you will get two new episodes every month. We will get episodes on the first and the 15th of the month. On the first of every month, we will give you what we're calling an exceptions episode. These are movies that would fit the normal rubric of what of this had Oscar Buzz movie would be. Great expectations, disappointing results, except in this case they got like a nomination or two nominations.

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you. We have done listeners' choice polls that have given us occasion to talk about movies like The Lovely Bones and Molly's Game. We've done an episode on Vanilla Sky. We're going to do another one of those soon, too. Yes, yes. As a patron, you will be able to spend far much more of your time dictating what we will do with our time than you have ever thought possible. On the 15th of every month, we're going to do an episode that we call an excursion. These are a little bit more format-break movies where we talk about, or format breaking episodes, where we talk about little bits of Oscar ephemera that we, or award show ephemera, that we are interested in, we trust that you

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to you more. So come listen to us. Sign up for This Had Oscar Buzz Turbule and Brilliance on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. All right. Listener, we are here talking about Let Them All Talk, directed

by one Steven Soderberg, written by Deborah Eisenberg, starring Mary Louise Streep, Lucas Hedges, Dionne Weist, Candice Bergen Gemma Chan Fred Hetchinger As we were talking about

I was like oh shit we've done like five Hetchingers now It's not that we have It's that we very feasibly Could already have a six-timers club for Fred And it'll happen And one Christopher Fitzgerald Who I immediately text Joseph Reed

To say how hot I thought what am I supposed to know Christopher Fitzgerald from? He's the original Bach, baby. He's the original... And he's like theater legend at this point. He's the original Buck? Bach.

Bach from Wicked. Oh, okay. Was he the one in Waitress, the musical? I believe he was a replacement for Waiter. And he plays Gemma Chan's boss in this? No, he plays Diane Weiss's son. Oh, right. I knew he was in one of those early scenes. Okay, Diane Weist's son. That makes sense.

Well, of course you like him. Of course, of course you like him. There, there we go. It's like all of five, four. Yes, he seems slightly unbock-like in that, like, I know. He's as tall as Diane Weiss. That's how sturdy. I know, but he's also like, my, my, my sense of Bach is very, is very twinky at this point.

So, um, I think it's how it's evolved that way. Um, but anyway, we love, we love our box, uh, find the Bach and, your life and can give them up. We love our box, quote, attributed to cats. Anyway, all right, all right. Not me giving out cat jokes on this episode. Joseph, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description? Yeah, it'll probably be a little bit long, but whatever.

It'll be a little bit long, and 50% of it will be the last five minutes of the movie. It will be in keeping with this episode. It actually is. In not keeping with this episode, it is not going to be entirely improvised, which I probably could have tried to do that. But no, we would be here forever. All right. Your 60-second plot description for Let Them All Talk starts now. Merrill Street plays Alice, an author of literary fiction, who's dragging her feet on her latest manuscript, much of the chagrin of her recently promoted junior book agent, Karen.

Alice can't fly to England to receive an award due to her health, so Karen suggests a cruise. sorry a crossing. On the Queen Mary 2, she brings along her nephew slash assistant Tyler, as well as her two oldest friends, Susan and Roberta, from whom she's become lightly estranged. Susan is fine, but Roberta is still raw over her perception that Alice stole her life story and put her infidelity to her husband on blast. In her breakthrough novel, You Always, You Never, leading to the end of Roberta's marriage and downward spiral that's led to her working as a salesperson, a bra store managed by fucking Clovis. On the ship, the women dine together and talk around the margins of their problems, and Alice swims daily.

It appears to be carrying on a clandestine in her romance with a hands. and black man by the pool. Roberta, with Tyler's semi-willing help, is trying and failing to land a rich husband. Susan keeps kicking Roberta's ass at board games. There's a mass market mystery writer on the ship as well named Calvin Krantz, who Susan and Roberta love, but who gets under Alice's skin until he's smart enough to compliment her most esoteric novel.

Alice and Roberta finally have it out, and Susan reprimands them to stop acting like self-centered children because Elon Musk just launched a bunch of satellites and fucked up the night sky forever. The cruise makes it to England, where everybody disembarks and checks into a cute little in, and Roberta and Alice finally have it out, and Roberta offers to essentially sell her life rights to Alice so that she can write her sequel. And Alice sees that this is about money more so than it is about feelings and agrees sadly to write Roberta at check. In the next morning, the handsome black man turns out to be Alice's doctor, and he informs Tyler that Alice died in the night from the blood clot.

Tyler and the women complete the England trip in Alice's honor, then return to the states where Roberta tries to sell Alice's unfinished manuscript. Susan brings writing a, begins writing a mystery novel with Calvin Krantz, and Tyler reflects on the words his aunt left behind for him. The end. 40 seconds over. figure whatever lots going on oh i love this movie i love this movie also doing a plot description makes it seem like alice isn't not the main character but this movie does walk a fine line of she's the main character if not the protagonist but the closest that i come to is also kind of an entity the closest that i come to having a problem with this movie and i

don't really but like the closest that I come is that the movie because ultimately I think it solves this problem by the end the movie seems to be taking place through Tyler's eyes in a way that I'm like but Tyler's the least interesting character no offense to Lucie Hedges who you know that I love Tyler's the least interesting character so like what are we doing here and yet by the end of the movie I love the grace notes so much of like him kind of remembering that little bit from Alice's speech and that he is the one who sort of knows to complete, you know, that trip to England. They can't just go back. They have to go to this Blodwin-Pews grave site and sort of, you know, do all this stuff and sort of go through the motions of, not go through the motions, but like walk through the path that Alice had wanted them all to walk. Not that Alice is this like altruistic, like all-knowing person. Alice is mostly a pretentious literary type.

But that this movie has the grace enough to know that, like, she's not a phony. You know what I mean? That she has... Right. This is ultimately a story about authenticity. Yeah. And that you can find authenticity even in the types of people who you would think are the biggest are the biggest phonies. Her and Calvin Krantz, most specifically, actually.

Right. And, I mean, like, this is the thing that I'm struck by anew every time I watch this movie is one of the joys I think of this film is that not just the idea of the person who you think is maybe the most funny or the most full of shit can actually be a real person but also like you enter this movie being like oh Alice is maybe an asshole and Candace Bergen has been done wrong by her and it's it very like piece by piece reveals no Candice Bergen is the asshole here like Yes, but also I would say it's probably a little too easy to also chalk up Roberta as an asshole, because, like, she's, she's somebody who, she is somebody who has been made into an asshole by the circumstances of her life. Do you know what I mean? That, like, people talk about how, like, money can't bring you happiness and whatever, and it's like, yes, but the lack of money really can turn you into an asshole sometimes. And I think the fact that she's working at this bra shop with fucking Clovis as her manager, from her very first scene, by the way, Bergen is absolutely murdering it where she's just like, I sent you an email. I'm taking this time off. I definitely sent it. And Clovis is like, oh, could you like find somebody to cover for you? And she's like, no, you can because that's your job. Goodbye. I, God, she's so good. But also she is someone who, while some of those elements are certainly true, she is, she does make, I think the, the, the perspective that the movie ultimately ends on with her is that she is someone who makes her life more difficult by not being authentic, not fostering those relationships. Because ultimately, the most important thing in this movie is this nephew aunt relationship that, you know, that.

You know, I mean, like, it sounds corny to put it this way, and I don't think the movie is corny about it, but it's like, this is the stuff of a life, you know, not any of like your grudges, your, you know, it's about how you can be, you know, a force for good in someone you are close to. Because like, the thing about Lucas Hedges's character is, and like, I'm surprised you kind of say that you think that he's a little bit of an annoying. character because I didn't say annoying I just said least interesting or I think there is some interest there because he is somewhat a drift and I think by the end we realize that you know Alice has thrown him a lifeline by being you know the person in his life and it's like even that relationship you can see from a certain perspective when you're entering into it that it's just like oh boy she's just got a family relative because it's the only person that can deal with her crazy, and she's probably exploiting him, blah, blah, blah. And you feel like she's going to be this, like, nightmare to him.

And then at the moment where she sort of finds out that he's been going behind her back talking to Karen this whole time, they have that really lovely scene where she's like, so you lied to me because you like her. And she's like, I can't think of a better reason to lie to somebody or whatever. And it's just like, oh, my God, she's giving him such grace in this moment. I love it. But I think even, you know, younger characters, especially younger male characters that are adrift in that way that don't have both of their feet on the ground quite yet can be irksome screen characters. You know, it's not, it's not, it can be a frustrating thing as a viewer to have to spend that much time with a character like that because of the narrative, like, inertia that those characters can kind of present or the cliche.

ways that that is often resolved. And I don't think any of that is true with this character. No, you're right. And like, Lucas Hedges, I wrote in the outline, Daniel Franco, where did you go? I know. We got, we, we, Lukie come back. It did seem like, and with the caveat that I don't know anything about anything and people's personal lives should be allowed to be personal. But it did seem like for a while there that Lucas Hedges had maybe sort of retreated for a little bit to sort of figure some stuff out. And there was a lot of, like, paparazzi stuff with, you know, who's he maybe dating, who's he maybe spending time with. How is he dressing?

There's a lot, you know what I mean, whatever? And it's like, it seemed to me like a fairly typical... All of that when he already was seen. seemingly to retreat from the amount of attention he got from his roles and an early Oscar nomination. And I, you know, I don't think it's too much inside baseball to say that, like, there was a pervasive sense around the time of Boy Erased, that there was going to be some kind of coming out moment for him via whatever, an article or an interview or something like that. And he perhaps backed away from that, perhaps that was never quite as concrete a plan as people thought, and just sort of decided to deal with those kinds of things privately for a moment.

And normally, I am very much, of course, an advocate of come out, come out wherever you are, you know what I mean? But this is still a very young person who is still maybe figuring out, you know, know who we want. And sometimes there's things for, like, it's not, you know, we can put other things in certain type of like, for lack of a better word, binaries where it's like, oh, this is the thing. And it's like, maybe if like something so definitive isn't clear to somebody, they should be given space. Yes, totally. He seemed to be from the outside in sort of like just figuring stuff out. And that's fine. And it's encouraging to see him sort of, you know, take these little steps back in. He was on stage in theater with Mike Feist in the

Brokeback Mountain play that was in London. Did that play in the States? No. I didn't think so. Perhaps it will at some point. And I feel like he's in a couple upcoming movies in a way that like it feels like he's, um, surely, which was very, which very quietly arrived on Netflix. But is he not in anything upcoming, or am I just sort of making it? I do not believe. I did not find anything. Well, darn.

Well, then, yes. To the, like, to the piggyback on the thing I said about Gemma Chan being, like, such a natural fit for, like, Soderberg in this vein, that I think that's even doubly true for Lucas Hedges, that it's just like, you'll want Lucas Hedges to become a Soderberg rep player. in a way that that maybe doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, well, Soderberg used to work at such a clip where he was making like two movies a year. So it was very easy for him to develop this kind of like, you know, rep, you know, company.

And it's not like he's, you know, nowhere to be found these days. But he's doing more, you know, experimental stuff, whatever that horror movie he had at Sundance. Coming from neon at some point this year, starring. Joe's Fave, Julia Fawkes. God, I forgot about that part. And then he's got another movie on the horizon, right? Um,

oh, he's filming, he's filming what sounds like another big Soderberg movie. Yeah. I forget what it's called. It's not like duffel bag full of money, but like the title is like

duffel bag full of money. I love duffel bag full of money. And it's got Blanchet in it. I forget who else is going to be. in this movie. Are we talking about Memories of Love Returned? No, that's a movie he's producing. Sorry, I'm on the IMD page. One second. Black Bag. It is called BlackBag

currently filming David Kep's script, Blanchett's in the cast. That's interesting. Brasnan, Fastbender, hottie Tom Burke, Naomi Harris. This is going to be a good movie. Oh, I love Naomi Harris. Blanchett's supposed to be in that one, right? We got to get you, yeah, we got to get you on board with Tom Burke.

Listen, I like Tom Burke. You haven't seen the souvenirs, though, right? Yeah, I've seen... Well, I mean, he's only in the first one. I've seen both souvenirs. Oh, okay. I was maybe a little bit less... They were, they were good, they were good.

Tuvenere is better than souvenir, but he's in, intense in the souvenir. Could not tell you what happens in one that's not... I just can't differentiate the two of them. It was... Did you watch them back to back? that's probably why. Let's talk about Meryl in this movie. Yeah, okay.

Underrated Meryl performance, I think there is married. It's wild that we still get underrated Meryl performances, by the way. And it's because... It's because this movie was not... I mean, the people who appreciated this movie got really... And there were critics, too, that got very loud about this movie. But we didn't get loud enough for this Meryl performance. There's barely a second that she's on screen where she is not a...

scream. So funny. Here's what happened with Merrill in the 2010s is, and this is not entirely not her own fault. The industry had gotten to the point after The Devil Wares Prada, and Mamma Mia, where they got very overconfident in being able to cast her in anything. The fact that she was ultimately so successful in a movie like Mamma Mia, when it's like, I could probably name a good 10 people who probably would have been better for the lead role in a musical than Merrill. You know what I mean? But that movie made a ton of money and it did so well. And then Hollywood was like, great, we are going to cast Merrill in every single role that is in this particular age range and demographic range.

range. And she's the only person we're going to cast. And to her part, she took those roles. And so she wins her third Oscar for the Iron Lady, a movie that in my life experience nobody likes in a performance that like maybe a couple people sort of are like, well, she's good. The movie's bad, but she's good. But a lot of people are like, no, she's also bad. So, and then in the next decade, she takes other roles. that maybe it's overreach to take August O's H. County, to be the witch in Into the Woods, to, you know, make a movie like Florence Foster Jenkins, you're. And so what that does is it allows this perception to arise about Merrill that she is, she's losing it, she's losing her touch maybe a little bit. She's in these big sort of movies where she's not quite, you know, it for people, and it obscures the fact that in that same stretch, she's in a movie like Hope Springs, where she gives actually like a pretty good performance, her and Tommy

Lee Jones, sort of in tandem in that movie, or make people just sort of like, look at something like Ricky in the Flash and being like, oh, it's Merrill being, you know, a hot shot again, Merrill sort of high stepping through this, whatever. And I think there's more to to see in that. It certainly allows people to overlook a movie like The Post, which I have talked before, about what a great movie that is and what a great performance she is giving in that movie, but because, you know, she's doing stuff like, sorry, Steven Sutherberg, the laundromat, where it's like, what the fuck are we doing here? It's so wild that Meryl goes from the laundromat, which I do think is one of her worst, I mean,

one of the worst Sederberg movies, but also one of the most ill-advised, one of the most ill-advised career choices. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um, and also that's the same time as season two of Big Little Lies, which I think she goes from like the first episode where she's absolutely incredible in and then each episode gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse along with the show, to be fair. She never have come back for a second season. And now they want to come back for a third season. I know. I know. I hope they do not bring back Meryl's character. No. I will also say, though, well, by the way, the fact that the laundromat comes in the same month, maybe, I think that was late 2019, as little

women, and she's great in little women, in a small role, but still, like, she's great in little women. I'll also say, just in terms of television, she's made up for big little lies, I think, in her season three performance and only murders in the building, in which I think she's genuinely fantastic. And she's sticking around, too. Well, she should be. Like, she and Martin Short are America's Sweethearts now, and I love it. But she hasn't made a movie since Don't Look Up, which is

bad, and I think she... I mean, she's not the worst thing about that movie, but like... But she's also not very good. She doesn't... She's not... Like, I can look at that movie and be like, I like what Jennifer Lawrence is doing in that movie. I don't ever feel like I can say that about Merrill, so. And I like Melanie Elensky in that movie. Melanie Elensky is the best performance in that movie.

I like in a role that I'm like, I should hate this, but because Melanie Linsky is so good. I also, true to form, I think Timmy is very fun in the movie. But like, what do you, how do you feel about my sort of conception of the sort of the last maybe 14, 15 years of her career? No, I think it's exactly right. I think the things in that decade that you're talking about, that are very good, have gotten overshadowed by Merrill Street movie star. I think there's a self-indulgence there that, like, I don't necessarily villainize her for. I think ultimately she's getting offered these roles that are really good roles.

And, like, how many really good roles exist there for women in their 50s, 60s, you know, how overruled she's getting. And... Well, and it's like, I think that's led this perception of... It rears its head every once in a while, and I think it's so fucking stupid. when they're like, when has Meryl ever worked with a great director? And it's like several times, it's just what your quantity of greatness is or your qualifier for greatness is skewed that you don't consider people like Steven Soderberg and Mike Nichols.

Also, please bring that energy to Tom Cruise. Please bring every ounce of that same energy to Tom Cruise once. That's all I ask. Like, Merrill's work with Steven Spielberg. What are you people talking about? She has even just in the last year. But I do think that that decade is the reason. why people say that.

Right. Right. But like, just in that, just in the Iron Lady to present stretch, she worked with Stephen Spielberg, Jonathan Demi, Stephen Soderberg more than once. Like, you're right. Yeah, like, Mama Mia and, you know, August Osage County and whatever. Like, there are movies where she is more of a force, Hope Springs, Devil Wars Prada. there are movies where she's more of a force than the director we used to call those people movie stars you know what i mean like we used to call those people a listers and i don't understand why merrill has to be the one to bear the brunt some of it too is like she's not doing the best

movie from those directors like it's complicated is not the best nancy mire's movie but it's still a good Nancy Myers movie. Also, when Nicole Kidman spent a decade working only for autos, people called it a slump. So what do you want from these women? Right. What do you want them to do? You know what I mean? Like, you get them one way, you get him the other way. Like, Jesus Christ. People. I mean, like, the media. Everything we said about big little lies, but like, Merrill did work with Andrea Arnold, like, you know. Well, such as it was. Such as it was. And that was very evidently taken away from Andrea Arnall. Arnold. And we only want good things for Andrew Arnold. But again, like, I'm not going to begrudge

Merrill for being a movie star. And I would, I'm not even going to be grudge for a lot of those choices just because, as I said, it's an Amy Adams thing. Remember how Amy Adams was like I wasn't successful for so long that, like, I have this, you have this almost like, um, um, oh, there's a term for it. It's not like starvation mentality, but it's like, you know, it's, it's this mentality of like, I have to take this because this could be the last thing I'm ever offered. You know what I mean? I don't think Merrill quite has that. But I think what she has is there are so few roles in my demographic right now that like, if it's being offered to me, I'd be a fool not to take it. She doesn't have a, she's not like the mother Teresa of actors who's like, I shall not take this because I am willing to distribute this goodness to everyone. No, she's not like that. But, you know, who would be? All that to be said, if I had, if they put me in a room with Meryl and said, you can ask 10 questions. One of my questions would be, what authors inspired your let them all talk performance?

Because it is so... Yes. And I'm not as plugged in to the literary scene to know, but, like, I'm sure there are antecedents. I mean, like, what Joyce Carol Oates is this? What Elizabeth Strout is this? Like, it's so funny. It's so specific. also still kind of being that, you know, the thing that she's chastised for, especially when she's, you know, doing comedy of being ticky. It's not, not, you know, a performance filled with performance, you know, but I think there is a hyper awareness and intentionality of it of the person she's playing, the effect it's supposed to have on the audience, and the ultimate reveal or trajectory of where this character is going.

and we realize, yeah, she probably is this pretentious writer, but she is also a genuine person. Those things about her, those ticks are genuine, not her playing at being a literary figure. She does such a good job with the improvisational aspects of this. This movie was somewhat famously, mostly improvved. I saw a clip of her on Stephen Colbert, where she talked about how Soderberg would essentially set the scene

tell them this is where we need to be at the end of the scene and just sort of like get us there, which you can I think you can sometimes tell, again, I promise I'm not picking on Lucas Hedges. As an actor, I genuinely love. But there are certain times where he feels like you can at least see the determination on his face to like, I got to get to where we're going. Whereas I think the other sort of older, more seasoned actors in this movie

are much more comfortable sort of like taking the winding road to get there. And I think Merrill is especially good at it. I think she's especially good at making these very sort of like small character choices when she's talking to Tyler about how essentially trying to say without saying it that like, I want you to keep tabs on my friends while I'm not around and tell me what they're talking about and tell me what they're saying about me while I'm not there. And she sort of talks through that in this very kind of recognizing. way of somebody who's

trying to manipulate a situation without making it seem like they're trying to manipulate a situation. I think there's so much of character shading in that way that she does through improv, through just sort of like talking her

way into a character, talking her way into a line of dialogue. And it's It's so much fun to watch, I think. Oh, absolutely 100%. And, like, the thing that you're saying of, like, Lucas Hedges trying to not steer the ship, but, you know, dock the ship maybe, there has to be some type of intimidation factor, you know? I mean, he's an autonomy, so whatever.

But, like, he's sharing the screen with three legends in these, you know, basically lunch scenes or whatever that. And everybody gets to be funny in their own individual idiosyncratic way, and he has to be a little bit more plot functioning. Apologies to the listeners, by the way, if this is picking up on mic, but it is, like, massively raining outside. So if you're hearing a bunch of hubbub when I'm speaking, that's why. Odysseus heard that Joe was talking dirt about Julia Fox and said, you will not besmirch my child. was it not Odysseus Poseidon I can't even make a joke right I don't understand

I don't Poseid Julia Fox is the daughter of Poseidon I was making a joke and it didn't work Oh I thought this was like something that she like brought up in a No this is me saying that she's a weirdo Well she's such a weirdo Anyway I also think though that you can see that same sense

In the scenes with Weist and Bergen where it's just like, they're just volleying. They're just volleying that scene back and forth to each other. I do wonder if somebody said like through an earpiece or something for Diane Wees to say, bow down, bitch.

Bow down, bitch. That was her own improv. She's so happy that she gets to say that, though, where she's just like bow down, bitch. It's so good. She also has maybe one of the funniest lines in the movie where she just goes, she didn't always talk like that, did she? Why? Why?

Why is she talking like that about Merrill's character? But the dynamic between those two characters is so, like, without Soderberg being indicative in any way, it's so important because I think by the end, we realize that these two characters are opposites in a way, not only just in how they respond to Alice, because, you know, they're both kind of thrown by Alice. in like her eccentricity, just like the line that you said. But Roberta takes it personally, and Roberta can only see it through the lens of the way that she thinks she has been wronged, whereas Susan kind of just goes with it,

accepts her for whatever she is, is able to just converse with her as a person without the sense of resentment. And I think by the end, the way that it makes it so interesting, is Susan does manage to get like the type of achievement or something that Roberta is so desperate for. Susan's going to be rolling in it when she starts publishing those mystery novels. Right. But like Susan gets it, gets what Roberta wants through being an authentic, real person who is not out for, not out, not out for herself, but not out for like getting what's mine.

I am owed this I am aggrieved I am aggrieved Give me what I deserve to have But like The scenes between Weist and Bergen though Watching Weist Um

Sort of very subtly Try and check Watching Susan try and very subtly To check Roberta And to sort of nudge her towards Being a little less self-righteous Being a little less you know,

aggrieved. And she does it through these like small little, but I think very intentional. She's never being like, listen, you've got to like, you got to figure your shit out.

But she's clearly trying to prod Roberta towards being a little bit less of an asshole about all of this. And then that comes out in that great moment, excuse me, and that comes out in that great moment

when they're all at dinner finally. And she talks about the thing with Elon on Musk launching the satellites and whatever, and talk about how, like, we're the last people to have ever seen unauthentic night sky. The most wistian monologue, if there ever was one. I swear to God, if they, if, if I ever encounter a drag queen who puts on that monologue during one of their shows, I will empty my wallet, including credit cards.

I will do that. I will become a drag queen. I will tuck credit cards into their waistband. I will put that in their garters. like, I will one million percent. You know what song I'll mix it into? What? There can be airplanes in the night.

Shut the fuck. I can really go wish right now, wish right now. And then I'm just going into Diane Wee smile. But it's a wonderful, but it's born of her being like, you two are the most self-obsessed, self-centered people I've ever met in my entire life. And what I think is kind of amazing is that Soderberg films. that scene via other people's faces, mostly Lucas Hedges' face, which that was a moment where I was like, for a second, I was like, why are we doing this? Why are we taking in this

incredible monologue? Why can't I just watch Diane Weist say these things? Why do I, why am I looking at Tyler during this? And then finally, I'm like, oh, because this is a movie about like the education of a young man, as much as it is, a movie about the friendship story. of three women. The fact that this movie is titled, like, aka the fall of 2019, which to me feels very much like, what is, you know,

the fall of 2019 feels very much like, why is this so momentous? It's like, oh, it's because it's like, it's a pivotal point in, I think, Tyler's life where he's just sort of like, this is, this was the, you know, the two weeks on a cruise that kind of, you know,

maybe made him. It teaches you what the substance of making a line. actually is and how to you know handle people that's it sounds so trite the way that I'm putting it but how to navigate you know human relationship whether it's with a person that means the most to you someone who had a major impact on your life because of one thing or a number of things or somebody who is new to your life and maybe writes mystery novels that are very financially successful. Perhaps. The scene where they spot Kelvin Krantz across the room and Roberta and Susan are going on and on about how much they love him. And clearly, Alice

can't stand him because he's so successful. It's this very sort of like literary fiction versus commercial fiction kind of a divide. Right. And she's, she's very unsubtly talking about how those books don't really offer any kind of artistic merit. She changed him to his face when they're talking about process. And he's like, yeah, I think the longest it's taken me has been like four months. And she's like, wow, I would have thought it would have taken so much less time. Yep. But everything she says she hates about it, the other two are just like, and it's great.

It's plot driven. And it's whatever. And, like, everything she's saying about France is doubles as, I can't believe you to read such stupid tripe. And everything that they are saying about why they love Krantz is being like, I can't believe, not even I can't believe, but like, we like his writing so much more than we like yours. And it's, it's great. It's like, again, it's just like, you know, valiing a ball back and forth, the crossover in that. And they're also dialed into those characters by that point. You know what I mean?

And that's pretty early in the movie. And they filmed this movie, mostly in chronological order, is the other thing. On the actual Queen Mary 2. On the actual Queen Mary 2. Do you think you're allowed to ride the Queen Mary 2 if you haven't ridden the Queen Mary 1? You have to do it in order. Yeah. Does this movie make you want to take a cruise?

and I think specifically on the Queen Mary too. Not on like Carnival Cruises, you know, whatever, like... You say Cruz to me, and it sounds like a hellscape, regardless. And this movie is the antidote to all of that. And I think to have that level of experience, you have to have a lot of money. Well, yes. But like, Soderberg does such a wonderful job. And he's doing his own cinematography.

I'm pretty sure in this. I do believe. He often does. I mean, this movie looks gorgeous. Also, we should say underrated in this movie, Thomas Newman's score rips in this movie. It does. It really does all the things. It doesn't sound Thomas Newmany.

Of all the Tom, you know I love Thomas Newman. I very much stick up for Thomas Newman, even though a lot of people think he's sort of like self-referential to a fault and whatever. One of my very favorite things that I did when I was doing Gold Rush, at Vulture a few years ago when they had me on that contract was I got Bobby Finger an interview with Thomas Newman

to put on the site. It was wonderful. But of all the times it would like, Thomas Newman will get nominated for something that you're just like, did we really need that nomination?

And then once again, this movie gets nothing. So like, we could have very easily had a really well-considered and deserving Thomas Newman nomination, which, by the way, he's still never won an Oscar.

He's been nominated eight billion times. I should have done a Thomas Newman, quiz for you. Though I suppose... Oh, next time. The quiz that I do is usually you need an Oscar win in there somewhere, but anyway. Um, but so just the way that Soderberg films the exteriors on the deck of the ship, there's the moment where the whole ship is sort of like, there's fog

everywhere, so like the ship is kind of encased in mist. There's the shot where they leave, they're departing New York Harbor, and they go under the Verrazano Bridge. that is just breathtaking and also very much conveys the scope of just how big the ship is, that they seem to be close enough to the Verrazano that they could reach out and touch it, to the span. And, like, if you ever have seen the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, that's a massive and tall bridge. It has to be tall to allow these ships to sort of pass under it.

He really, really makes you feel the things about being on a ship, that would make you feel like Susan does when she talks about the night sky and whatever, just sort of like make you feel connected to this sort of vastness, right? The very same thing about being on a ship that might give me like anxiety spikes is when I would like go out there and just be like, there's nothing out there for miles. We are alone. We are alone in the universe. But then I look at back and I look at another scene and it's like, they're playing Scrabble

on a little table just for them and if they look out the window they can see the ocean and I'm like well that sounds lovely you know what I mean When this endeavor gets us our millions Joe we will be the cruise ladies playing clue on the side stern

whatever that's called Once again if a particularly eccentric billionaire or even multi-millionaire truly wants to sponsor us forever and wants to send us around cruises on the Queen Mary back and forth, you know, traversing the sea, turning this into a maritime podcast? I would accept. The first podcast is to take place entirely in international waters. There would be no rules. Wait, okay, we got to get, we got to talk about Bergen.

I was going to say, we got to talk about candy. Let's get into it. Performance of the year. period. She's from, again, minute one. This was the year where I was on the Blankies Award. I think this was the year where Griffin Newman coined the term Candace Buckets-Bergand, because she's just scoring buckets left and right from all over the court in this episode. It's totally true. Performance of 2020, the best performance of that movie year.

I mean, Candice Bergen, to me, for so long, was just Murphy Brown. When I came into, like, consciousness of pop culture, she was already, like, the person who's won 8 billion Emmy Awards from Murphy Brown and Point of Facts, she won five. So that was already a thing. And then when I was 12 was the big Murphy Brown controversy, where Dan Quayle called out the fictional character Murphy Brown for choosing to have a baby as a single mother and just claiming it as another valid lifestyle choice.

The 1992 Bush Quail campaign really put a lot of their chips in on culture war, and they did things like came out against The Simpsons and Murphy Brown and television and Hollywood and all sorts of things, and they wonder why they lost. but it was the stuff of late-night manna from heaven. You don't understand how much late-night hosts loved making fun of Dan Quayle. Like, Dan Quayle was this like empty suit and a haircut from Indiana who seemed like a total dweeb, who, you know, would do things like pick fights with fictional characters, but also, like, just seemed dumb.

Like his whole thing when they were running for president in 88 was that he was like insubstantial and he was not up for the job. This was back when we pretended like, you know, people that voters required qualifications

to have jobs in the White House. And so there was that famous moment with, you know, Lloyd Benson at the 88 vice presidential debate where he's like, you know, I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. You're no Jack Kennedy. And then there was the thing where Dan Quayle misspelled the word potato on a chalkboard in front of a bunch of children. So like Dan Quail was every light night comedian's favorite dummy. And he picked a fight with Murphy Brown, Candice Bergen, like, you know, a woman of substance on television, right? But they also creative genius that that show took to be like, she is a fictional character. And we're going to treat this moment like Dan Quayle has just called, like, as if Murphy Brown existed and he called out a real citizen.

Yeah. Like, the early 90s galaxy brain of that. It also turned the, like, Murphy Brown has the baby season finale that year into event television. Like, it could not have been a better gift. By the way, I should also mention Diane English, the creator of Murphy Brown, Buffalo New York native. talk about that when we eventually do our episode

on the women, and I will apologize to Ms. English. So, but anyway, so that was mostly what I knew of Candace Bergen, was just that. And, like, finding out how much her career sort of stretched before that, what a fixture she was

in the 1970s, especially, also that she's this, like, one of the more interesting nepo baby cases, and that, like, her father was Edgar Bergen, the famous ventriloquist. like that's a heck of a of a claim to

tangential Manson family Michigan Oh, this is the other thing that I was going to say former guest Karina Longworth

I didn't ask her about this because obviously we had a whole lot of other things to talk about in a short amount of time,

yes. She went in on Candace Bergen in that Manson family series. Every single turn,

Candice Bergen was like this like poor little rich girl idiot. who got caught up with the Manson family because she was too dumb not to.

And I've always been sort of struck by that. I was like, wow. But that was a career thing that Bergen had to basically crawl out of that actual perception, you know? Yes. And it happened with Mike Nichols in Carnal Knowledge was like the first time

that she got real respect as an actress. And of course... How many stories like that? her there with Mike Nichols, by the way, who was just like, and then came Mike Nichols and all of a sudden, like, game respect. And, and like he's, I mean, God bless. God love that man. Anyway, continue. She gets her Oscar nomination for starting over a movie, I believe I said at some point on the 70s miniseries. I do not care for that movie. Glad that she's an Oscar nominee. Jill Kleberg is great in that movie. That doesn't deserve her. Also, go look at the poster for starting over a listener, Jill Claiburg on that poster.

That is me. Especially because I'm about to be moving, etc. The other interesting thing, not the other, but like one of the other interesting things, is that Candice Bergen very much

is emblematic of a way that Hollywood used to be, which is you are either a film actor or a TV actor, not both. And so she was a film actor through the 70s and early 80s. Then she got Murphy Brown, which meant she stopped being a film actor. She was just a TV actor. She just did Murphy Brown and didn't really emerge into movies until after the turn of the century, where all of a sudden

she becomes your go-to person for woman in authority figure who is maybe not a friend to other women. So she's the sinister pageant organizer in Miss Congeniality. She's the mean would-be mother-in-law in Sweet Home Alabama. She's Carrie Bradshaw's

editor at Vogue, I want to say, in Sex and the City? Yes. That's what I believe Enid Frick did in that. I always remember she's Enid Frick. I just don't remember what Enid Brick does. I don't remember what she's, what role

she's. did in the remake of the women, speaking of Diane English. She's someone's mom. No, she's the wedding planner in Bride Wars, right? I don't think I've seen Bride Wars. Honestly, not a good movie, but it's written by

Casey Wilson and June Diane Raphael. So, like, maybe worth a shot, because I think they're both so funny. But so it's taken Candace Bergen, so like that was sort of the stock Candace Bergen role for a while. And it's really only in the last eight years or so that Candice Bergen has started getting somewhat complex or at least, like, you know, interesting movie roles again.

I think she's really good in the Myrowitz stories for how briefly she's in it. I think she's wonderful in Book Club. The thing is— I do, too. I'm glad you said it. Book Club is like older female friendship right up there with Let Them Aller. talk and she couldn't be playing more different characters. I think she got to be

the, while people were disappointed by Book Club when it came out, she got to be the person that everybody said was their favorite part of it. Because she gets the storyline that she's like putting herself back out there. She makes out with Wallace Sean in the back of her car.

I haven't seen the second one yet. I may be saving that for like an afternoon where I really need it. Oh yeah. Yeah, it'll be there for you. The second one, I remember having a good time. I remember having maybe more of a good time than I had with the first one, but it... I had a real good time with the first one, if I remember correctly. She's also...

Is she Rees's mother in home again? Conceivable, but I don't remember. The rare movie where she played, the rare career where she has played both the Rees-Switherspoons would be mother-in-law and then later mother. Good job. I don't know. But I think definitely that... Let Them All Talk is sort of the, is the best performance she gives in this later stage point in her career.

But it also is very much just like emblematic of the skill level and energy she's bringing to her roles at this stage of her career. Quiet monster. Roberta is a quiet monster. And. But like a... Hannah Fergan still develops. It makes that incredibly funny and incredibly funny in unexpected ways.

I mean, the funniest scene in the movie is when she tries to go and, like, you show up to the cruise and they give you a $50 gift certificate to apply to a massage. And she's like, I don't want anyone touching my feet or my hands. Can you, can I just get the cash? Cash value. And she's like, trying not to strangle this customer service person, even though she herself is a customer service person, even though she herself is a customer service person, which makes her. an even bigger monster. And just the outright rage she has throughout the movie, and increasingly so, especially that last call with Gemma Chan,

where it's just like, well, why won't you just hand me the thing that makes me? I stole this manuscript fair and square, and now I'm holding it for ransom, and you now... Even though it's only like a page and a half of text. Even the point, the scene where her and with her and... Merrill, where she's like, I will sell you my life rights. And it's like, bitch, this isn't all she cares about money. She can come up with, uh, you know, a character for you in this sequel. She doesn't need you're like, it's, remember that Seinfeld where Kramer sold his

life rights to J. Peterman so that he could have Elaine write his biography and like she ends up writing Kramer's stories. It's like that's sort of what I feel like Roberta watched that episode before she hatched this plan where she's like, that's what I could do. I could sell my life rights to Alice. And it's, first of all, it's very presumptuous, the fact that like you think your life is so interesting. Well, and I also don't think that Alice is an asshole for using you as creative inspiration. Don't be friends with writers then. Like, I have no sympathy for Roberto with that. I think that's one of the things that Diane. We says too where she's just like

or no actually it's Roberta because there are moments where Roberta is self-reflective and she says you know essentially if I couldn't keep that secret for myself I can't really expect other people to have kept that secret

for me. Right. So it's like she's not like it's not like she's so completely far gone but again I think she is a person who has been driven to the brink of madness by not having money and seeing what her contemporaries, you know... Well, and it's not like she's just to do by having money.

It's not... No, but she's working in the shitty bar store. She's just an average person working a shitty job. Like, you know. Listen, I don't blame her. I'd be pissed, too, but I also do feel like it's like, watch what a monster this has turned into. This has turned her into. And all of this, like, all of this, which, like, see.

like a repulsive character is ultimately incredibly funny throughout the movie. Well, that's the thing is Bergen is so quick-witted in this movie. And she's so, especially given that you know that they're improvving this stuff. He's the one who has so many buttons in this movie, so many buttons for so many scenes are on stuff that she says because she knows exactly when to like get that zinger in, right? get that like, you know, and scene sort of like last, last little, you know, dig in or whatever. And it's, she has a great sense of the way the scenes need to unfold, I think. Well, and on top of that, Roberta is also kind of ridiculous to, like, the way that she dresses. She wears like a full-blown cowboy hat for no reason at one point in the movie.

And it's just like, character detail, character. detail to the point that like the final showdown scene between her and alice is the only time that she's just like in a t-shirt you know the subplot where she's trying to land a man and she's like tyler you're going to help me do this and they're going through and they're trying to like background check this one guy and you know you know find other prospects or whatever it's all very funny but that's also the scene that you realize oh she doesn't want to get laid she wants money. She wants a husband. She wants a husband. She wants her rich husband.

Yeah. And again, to that, I say, Who Among Us? She was nominated at our friends, the AARP Movies for Grownups Awards for Best Supporting Actress. What's that? The taste, the class. She should have won. Should have won. I was going to say, this is okay, so this is a real interesting category.

Want to name the nominee? Yes, Jody Foster wins for the Mauritanian. Remember the A couple years too early. If they knew that they were going to be giving her an award for NIAD only a few years later, I think they would have not bothered to give her this award for the Mauritanian. Ellen Burstyn for Pieces of a Woman, and then two Oscar nominees and the winner, actually, in Glenclose for Hillbilly Ellogy and Yunya Jun for Minori. Yunya Jung, hugely deserving, perfect.

Jody Foster and the Mauritania, not bad, wouldn't have been. a nominee for me, but whatever. Ellen Burstyn and Pieces of a Woman, I love Ellen Burstyn, actively bad performance in that movie. Well, because the scenes that she's in are horrid.

Like, the script that she is tasked to perform is crap. Like... It is. And then she performs it way too... It's just her and Kirby screaming at each other. She blows the speakers out in that scene,

and I'm just like, how am I supposed to hear anything for the rest of this movie. It's a sign of a bad director. And then Glenn Close, Hillbillology, which we've talked about plenty of times. We don't need to get into it. Cartoon performance.

I feel like, I mean, like I understand people being like cartoon performance, but considering how bad everything else is around her, I think she doesn't embarrass herself. And I think she quits herself decently in that movie. I've never heard you say a single kind thing. I have definitely said that Glenn Close is better in hillbilly elegy than she is in the wife. Well, that's just you being insane. Not insane.

That's actually, it's not an unsupportable position, even though I don't agree with it. I just think you are wilding out there. Well, okay, if we're saying that Ellen Burstyn is asked to do garbage in pieces of a woman and doesn't acquit herself well, Glenn Close is like asked to do hateful classic. And she's competent. In Hillbilly elegy and acquits herself well. My favorite thing that Glenn Close, two favorite things. One first favorite thing is there's that one still of Glenn Close in Hillbilliology

where she's making the same facial expression as the old man in Up. You know what I'm talking about, right? Where she's just like, second thing is if we do not get this nomination, we do not get Glenn Close doing debut on the transition office. And honestly, would not trade that moment for anything. Let Them All Talk also nominated for Best Buddy Picture, which is just like, Correct. Yes, correct.

It's just like, why would you get rid of this category? Well, because you would never have a better nominee than Let Them All Talk. Defive Blood wins, which is. Is the only other thing that I could have stomached winning this category besides. Sure, but it's also like, that's a harrowing movie for like, It is, but the whole point of that movie is that they're buddies. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Other nominees include Bad Boys for Life. Bill and Ted Face the Music. And standing up, falling down, a movie that I have seen, but definitely does not exist. I have never heard of it. What is it? Crystal. It's like stand-up comics, I believe. Billy Crystal's an old guy.

And then there's a young guy, and they become friends. What do you think this movie is? All right. What other movies would have been better choices for? I mean, unfortunately, the prom. I mean, yeah. Here's the thing. Did the AARP M4Gs that year extend their eligibility window similar to the Oscars?

Because if they did, there's no excuse to not nominate Barb and Star go to Vista Del Mar. That's true. But they might not have. They might not have extended. Yeah, because some people did. Some people didn't, like we said at the top of the episode, Confusion. Right, right, right. So, um, listen, that Chicago 7 were all buddies. So, um, one night in Miami. Sure.

nominated elsewhere. Yeah. Why not? Um, God, I look at these nominees for the year 2000. And I know I saw all these movies because they definitely ranked them. And yet it's like, what? It's like I stand outside of myself looking at some of these. It's like, did I really, I remember. where I was when I watched News of the World, the same place I was where I watched all of these movies, which was sitting on my couch. Actually, no, not true, because Emma with a period, I saw in a theater before the pandemic started. Did I see any of these nominees in a theater? Hold on. Hold, please. I don't think I did. Emma, I think is the only one that I did. Emma period, I did not. I paid $25 to rent that in like March. 27. Well, that's the other thing. It's so many of these movies I remember paying premium prices. I absolutely did with Moulon, which was the The Tempest in the Teapot sort of that year of like, that was the very first movie that Disney had to decide how they were going to figure out how to deal with their slate of movies. It opened the week after Tenet or the week before Tenet? I don't remember, but I remember it had already done its theatrical.

didn't it. It's L.A. Premiere. It's like World Premiere or whatever. And then it was about to, right? Wasn't that thing? And then it was about to open. And then they're like, no. Yeah, because it was Moulon. People had seen. People had seen a quiet place too. And all of the Sundance movies, obviously. But they decided to hold off on a quiet place too. But they decided we need to get our Moulon money now. So, yeah, I don't know if I never connected those dots. But I, never saw any of that year's nominees in a theater. Wow. Yeah, I saw Temet after the fact, as I said, and I saw Amma period before, and that's the size of it, right? I didn't see any of these. I'm going down to the bottom of the ballot. Maybe there was no, no, no, no, one and only Ivan. Strangely enough, I did only see on Disney Plus, so. One and only I've only ever available on Disney Plus. like we said, confusion.

Let's talk a little bit about before we wrap up Soderberg doing these movies for Max. Yes. Which I don't think Magic Mike's Last Dance was part of that original contract. They just decided to do it.

And then, you know, things went away from we're just going to dump things online to, yes, they did put it in theaters and no, it didn't make a lot of money. So previous to this, though, previous to Magic Mike's last dance, his last theatrically released movie was insane.

Which I need to revisit, because I kind of loathed when I first watched it. I didn't care for it so much. I know, I understand that like the handheld digital, whatever, was a production choice and whatnot. I was a much bigger fan of

his movie before that, which was Logan Lucky. Yeah, we're Logan Lucky fans here. That's great. What a picture. I'm under the understanding that some people think that that is a very bad movie. And I don't understand that at all. Crazy. Is it is, I know some people are like, that movie would be good if not for Seth MacFarlane.

And I'm like, if you can't. Totally logical thought. Just look, but if you can't just look past Seth McFarland, because truly it's very easy to, he's in like two scenes and you just lift him out of there. And then the rest of that movie, there's no problem. I need to watch. I need to catch up to the Nick. Because I never watched the Knick. I've just only seen that Angerrano, Giff, many times.

Angerano and, like, Andre Hollen's in it. Like, a lot of people I love in the Nick. Just, like, everything that I heard about it was, oh, those surgery scenes are so stomach turning. And it's like, well, that's not the best argument for me to want to see that. The Nick is part of the thing that it's like the whole Soderberg retirement thing, which, by the way, was a period of what, four years? that's part of the reason why I just no longer trust any of these Hollywood retirements

unless your name is Goldie Hawn because like she stuck to her guns there for like 20 years when was the bad Amy Schumer movie that she came back for oh god what a waste right but like his finger quotes retirement was partly led by they couldn't get US distribution for behind the candelabra and it goes to HBO and he's like well my work here is done i mean like he was kind of on that wavelength before seemingly anybody else was behind the candelabra speaking of a movie that would be better with a different performer i think matt damon is pretty bad in that i would i never quite got the matt damon accolades for that movie yeah and then they had that whole really annoying emmy awards where they both both won awards and they like giggled their way if

through their acceptance speeches whenever they talked about starring in a movie about these two men. It's one of those things where it's just like, if you can't even talk about it without giggling,

then you're not old enough to do it. You know what I mean? Like, you are not mature enough to handle this. And, I do think after I finish my Gus Van Sant watch,

um, I'm going to do Soderberg again because I feel like recently I've like connected the dots that like, oh, I'm a Sodaberg. guy like I love I think challengers actually did it because I came out of it and I was like it's like a

Soderberg movie and that made me so happy and I was like I need to go back to some Soderbergs 2019 he does two Netflix movies uh one of which I quite liked and one of which I quite didn't um agreed a high flying bird I think is very very good and I think Andre Holland is very good we didn't do enough for high flying bird high flying bird was great great movie um and then the laundromat which is so cringy almost entirely throughout. And then the HBO slash HBO Macs slash Warner Brothers Discovery era starts with Let Them All Talk. No Sudden Move, which we argued about earlier.

Kimmy, a movie that I like but maybe don't love the way a lot. A lot of people kind of flipped for Kimmy and was like, Kimmy's so good. There could be just like a little bit more there. Like, it feels like it's low-lift Soderberg, but that movie is a lot of fucking fun. Sure. I think it wears out its welcome sooner than people give it credit for. I don't think, even at 90 minutes, I'm like, I could have done with 65, maybe.

I don't know. The other thing, though, I want to advocate for, which nobody is going to because nobody really saw this. And I understand why people didn't see it, because, like, signing up for a TV series these days is, like, signing up for, oh, what's a good metaphor? What's the thing you, like, sign up for where you're just like, I'm never going to see the light at the end of this tunnel. I don't know. Mortgage.

Where it's just like, oh, I'm making a commitment. Full Circle, the TV show from last year, is so good. It's like... I remember you talking about that show. It's so good. It's only six episodes. Zazi Beats plays the most... I'm absolutely impossible.

Like, she's an investigator for the Postal Service, first of all, which is very funny. But she's like the most abrasive character, intentionally so in forever. And I think she's so much fun to watch operate. Claire Daines is giving one of her best performances in this show. Dennis Quaid has a French braid. CCH Pounder plays a criminal. Kingpin. I don't know what else you want out of a miniseries. But it's just like, it's classic Soderberg. It really does move right along. It goes to some really interesting places that you're not really

sure that it's going to go. And it says some stuff about, it says some stuff about like privilege in a way that like you would think we'd have covered all of this by now. But like it comes at it from a really interesting angle. And I think the conclusion to it is really well done. So, Highly recommended. Go check it out. Like I said, it's only six episodes. How many Soderbergs have we done? Would Soderberg be the first director we could do a six-timers club on?

Because I think we're at five. We have done for Steven Soderberg as I go through. Solaris. Hold on. We've done Solaris. We've done... Magic Mike. Magic Mike.

We've done Magic Mike. Or no, we haven't done yet. I mean, we can't credit double XL to him even though. Legally. I look meaningfully at the thing. There's some beat on the bone there. We have not done the informant. We have not done contagion.

We could do both of those. I think we've only done the three. This will be three at this point. We haven't done the laundromat, which we could do. We haven't done, I mean, eventually we're going to do Magic Mike's Last Dance, even though I think the case for that having Oscar buzz is real thin, but like, we got to complete

the trilogy, but... I mean, um, we could also do Ocean's Eleven. Didn't that get nominated? It didn't get nominated for, you did it? No, ma'am. We could do, well, we can't do out of sight. Out of sight would have to be an exception. Uh, we could do the limey. We could do the limey.

Um, did King of the Hill get nominated for anything? But like, are we going to... Did King of the Hill get nominated for anything or no. No. No. do that. King of the Hill, good movie. Never thought. I would be such a bear, but... I can't I have one

short life to live. I don't know if I can do Shea. I'll watch it this year if I'm going to do a Soderberg watch. Do it. Who knows when Presence is coming. Good German, we could do as an exception. We could do a Patreon episode on Good German. I think we probably should at some point. Yeah, there's a lot of Soda Bird Meat on the bone. So I don't know. You're going to be hearing a lot for me lately about

Steve Zerberg. Can I just empty my notebook real quick? Yeah. We didn't talk about this, and I'm surprised. You always, you never, one of the best fake book titles in movie history. It's so perfect. I can't even get into it. You always,

you never. It communicates every single thing about it while also being deeply plausible as a real book title. Same thing with the author Bloodwin Pugh. Her, like, I'm doing the Italian like fingers right there. It's just like, ah, it's so good.

Lukie and Gemma Chan dancing to I Got a Man for like 20 seconds of bliss. I could live in that way. What more do you need? What more do you need? It's so good. Best editing nomination right there. Also, we talked about the monologue, but like the night sky thing, but like this movie absolutely bodies Elon Musk. At a time, I should mention, people didn't really turn on Elon Musk for real until the pandemic when he started doing anti-vax misinformation. Like, people, not everybody loved him, but there was not this pervasive sense of, like, Elon Musk is a force for evil in this world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Until then. So, like, this was written before that. Like, this pre-exists that. We should also, by the way, shout out the writer, Deborah Eisenberg, who wrote, you know, essentially, like, helped to craft the story. for as much as this movie is improvised. Deborah Eisenberg, you know,

created the story. But anyway, that monologue bodies the fuck out of Elon Musk and, like, really just sort of like, in a very matter-of-fact way, being like, this person is making the human experience demonstrably worse, and he's doing it forever. He's doing it from now until the end of time. And it is, I, like, literally, I, like, I recoiled.

in a really, really good way. So, good movie. You know what, good movie. Joe, would you like to explain the IMDB game to our listeners? Yeah, why not? Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game and wherein we challenge... Sorry, more time.

Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, wherein we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress and try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television shows, voice only, performances or non-acting credits. We mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free for all of hints.

All righty. I still feel like post-70s, I'm getting the hang of this just being the two of us. Would you like to give her guess first? I will give first. All right. Whomps do you have? As I am recovering the page that I had. Okay.

So, how did we get there? Yes, Candice Bergen is in Let Them All Talk. We talked about how good she was. We talked about how she was in the book club movies where one of her co-stars, although not romantically linked to her character, romantically linked to one of her fellow book clubbers in that film, is played by one Craig T. Nelson. Ah, tap dance and a meatloaf.

one television show one voice performance the voice performance is the Incredibles yes the television show is coach yes so what are I mean I do think book club could be one of them

um what was the movie that he was like not the bad guy but like a pervert of some kind is it book club it's not book club I do think that these are going to be recent, so these are going to be character roles, probably.

Ooh, what did I just watch him in that he's like someone's lovable dad? Not the Incredibles. Um Um Um No Did I just watch him with like Sissy Spacec In something

Oh, that's gonna drive me crazy Craig T Nelson is a perfect pull for IMDB game Because it all blurs together Um Um Um Oh, I just had it, and it left. No, that's Jeff Daniels.

Sorry, I'm just, I'm nothing but dead air, but I'm just, no, just talk through. I'm spiraling. I mean, like, I can picture him in movies, being a dad, talk, like. What's the movie where he's like, it's like a father-daughter thing and he eventually relents and cries and we all cry because it's Craig Dean Nelson crying and it's like a teen romance and he's the dad or like a young romance. I can't picture it. It's not Reese Witherspoon, but it's like a Reese Witherspoon. I have no idea what movie I'm thinking.

of. I'm failing here. It's not going to be book club the next chapter, if it's not book club. It's... Oh, my God. Why am I blanking so hard? I'm like 12 hours away from getting on a plane to go on vacation. If you want to just burn a guess and I can start giving you clues.

Fine. I'll say The Incredibles, too. No, not the Incredibles. too. Your years are 2005 and 1982. Okay, so I was way wrong on it being

close. 1982 that's like, is that an Oscar movie? No, but it's very well known still to this day. Is it like wouldn't be a Spielberg movie?

But is it like a blockbuster? type movie? I think Spielberg is a producer on it. Oh. Oh, it's Poultergeist. It's Poultergeist. Poultergeist was not the dad I was thinking of. Isn't there that urban legend that Spielberg secretly directed Poultergeist?

I think it's more than an urban legend. I think there's like documented that he directed significant portions of it. Though I do think that's all a big, like there's people who, like that's the Roman Empire is to

Spielberg-Joy, Poltergeist. All right, 2005. I'm sitting here being like, Dad, Craig T. Nelson, dad, Craig T. Nelson, and the listeners are, like, stabbing me saying Poltergeist. 2005.

The 2005, I think, is the rom-com. Is it a rom-com? There are rom-com elements to it. Is he the lead actresses dad? Not the... No, not the lead actresses dad. So, there's a romance

and the male actor is the lead no with an asterisk trying to determine who's the lead of it well no I don't think I think there is one lead but there there's an ensemble

is this the big wedding no a movie I still need to see but there is People are going to, people are yelling into their, into their podcast devices right now. Because it's a wedding movie in 05. Oh, no. It's not a wedding movie, but a, but, um, there is, again, a wedding element to it that is a strong through line.

Not 27 dresses. No, that's too much about weddings. Oh, the wedding planner? Nope. Still too much about weddings. That's like a two. Back away, back away from, it's not about a wedding. There is no wedding that happens in this movie, but there is talk of a wedding.

An engagement. Oh, the family stone. There we go. There we go. On the subject of what other kinds of movies with my mind. Were you thinking of all the right moves? No, I was thinking of the family stone. Oh, you were thinking of the family stone.

Okay. But the other one where you were like... He's Rachel McAdams' dad. Like, yes. Were you thinking when you were like, I think, I think, I'm picturing something where he plays maybe a pervert. That's the devil's advocate. No. Yes.

No. Well, he does. Because I'm like, isn't there a movie where he plays a child molester? Yeah, it's the devil's advocate But it's not the devil's advocate He's probably done that more than what Well, okay He's in Silkwood

But I don't think that's his role in Silkwood He's in Private Benjamin But I don't think it's his own Private Benjamin Are you thinking of something called Man, Woman, and Child? No, I don't know what I was thinking of I think it was all just like My brain would not get to

the family stone and it went from there. Okay. Well, anyway, all right, what do you have for me? I thought that was evil, but you really didn't play it evil. I was just full stupid today. Full stupid. My worst, my worst showing ever in the IMDB game, I would shudder to think when I have done worse than that because those were all easy. That was all. You are mentally in Cabo San Lucas right now. I sure am. Yeah. All right. So for you, I went into the Soderberg Max filmography, a performance that if there was just one more scene or like maybe two more scenes, I would be like on my acting ballot for that year, perfectly cast Rita Wilson in Kimmy.

Yeah, Rita Wilson rules in Kimmy. Nobody ever had the idea of Rita Wilson would be perfect. as a evil bureaucrat in something until Steven Soderberg. And she's like, perfect. She just needs, like, she needs a little bit more. I will say the closest anybody came to it. And I know that, like, this is a movie, or this is a TV show that everybody has gotten into cultural rehabilitation for. And I'm sort of not.

But girls. Girls knew how to cast Rita Wilson as. Yeah. She's so good. And girls. I need to do my girls rewatch. I've been wanting to do a girls' rewatch. watch for two years. Rita Wilson's ultimate destiny, and somebody really needs to get on this, is to star in

a television movie about one of these multi-level marketing people who like a Lulu Lemon scandal or something, where she is like the CEO, not Lulu Lemon, Lula Row. Lula Ro, what was the, you know what I'm talking about? Yes, yes, yes, yes. But like where she's like the kingpin of all. of that. Like, that is the ultimate Rita Wilson destiny. Emmy right there. All right. Anyway. I pulled for you, Rita Wilson.

Leapleyn Seattle. Correct. Mixed nuts? Incorrect. The cult of mixed nuts is not... I know. I know. I know. That's because it is not a good movie, and it is a problematic movie. Sure.

But it's also glorious. It's complicated? Also incorrect, not it's complicated. Your years are 1995, 1996, and 1999. Now and then. Now and then for 1995. 1996, and what's the other?

99. Can we say why you got to now and then so quickly yet? Are we allowed to talk about this yet? Let's not just because it's still in the early stages, but... We'll talk about it later. Put a pin in it, listeners.

Put a pin in it. Hopefully, by the time you're listening to this, you know what I'm talking about. Okay. 95. That's 90. Now and then is 95. You have 96 and 99.

Is she in that thing you do? She could be, but it is not the correct guess. Okay. And 99. Talk about things that people, People try to rehab, and I'm like, okay. Do you not like that thing you do? No, no, I love that thing you do.

What are you talking about? How dare you. Okay. Well, then what are we saying? Like, literally clutching my pearls at the thought of thinking I wouldn't like, before you said, talk about things that we rehabilitated. No, 96 is definitely a movie that, I will say annually, people try to, I see more and more people try to rehab this movie.

And I'm like, no, that's a piece of shit. Like, Mars attacks? No, no, no, no, no. Why would annually a movie get... Oh, a Christmas movie from 96? It is a Christmas movie, yes. Is it like Jingle All the Way? It is Jingle All the Way, where she plays the wife of Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Sure. Not conceivable. Sorry. Who's the other person? Is it Tom Arnold? Ooh, I think it's... Phil Hartman? It's Sinbad.

It's Sinbad and Phil Hartman. Okay. I feel like there's another movie where Tom Arnold is the adversary to somebody. There's many, I mean, Tom Arnold's the adversary to us all. Okay, 1999, Rita Wilson. One of the other movies that her known for might get you there in terms of her function in that movie. Best friend in a rom-com. Maybe.

Is she best friends to Meg again? No. This is the wrong year for You've Got Mail, but also she's not in You've Got Mail anyway. Best Friend in a Romcom 99. Is it like the most well-known rom-com of 99? It's probably the highest grossing. Oh, is it Runaway Bride? It is Runaway Bride, a movie that we have all memory holds.

She's the person who sets up Hector Elizondo for that. FedEx joke that David Sims likes so much. I should have gotten that much quicker. Yes, Runaway Bride. Sure, sure, sure. Runaway Bride, which I even only remember for its use of not one, but two Dixie Chick songs or chicks. It's ready to run and what else? Didn't they also cover something?

Oh, they cover you can't hurry love. Oh, okay. Because Ready to Run is the one where like in the music video, it seems from, they used to do that. Kids, ask your parents. they used to do music videos for songs where they just would like put clips from the movies that the song from the movie that the song's supposed to be in in the music video you would have madonna singing live to tell and you would just have like christopher walkin and sean pen holding guns in each other's faces and that was a music video you would have um oh what the hell else you would have seal uh in front of the bat signal singing kiss from a rose while dr chase meridian in her perfect lips stick are like just right there for you. It was...

She's getting into nipple play in gear. It was a... Yeah, Seale was very nipple forward in that video. It's just the flowiest shirt a man has ever worn in the entire history of the world was that video. We used to, it was a better time. It was just a better

time. Anyway, I think that's our episode. If you want more, this had Oscar Buzz. You should check out our Tumblr at this had Oscarbuzz.com. Also follow us on Twitter at Had underscore Oscar Buzz on Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz and our Patreon at patreon.com slash

This Had Oscar Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? I should get into the habit of doing this more. Go sign up for the Gold Rush newsletter at Vulture. You can hear me yammer on about the Emmys up through the Emmys. You can also sign up, not sign up for... Yes, you can. You can sign up for alerts for the Cinematrix,

which is my daily, not my, our daily movie game grid, me and a band of misfits put that thing on every day, and it's very, very fun. Also, I am on Twitter and letterboxed at Joe Reed, read spelled R-R-E-I-D, and hopefully, as I said, by this point, there's another special project that we can talk about. Something exciting coming from Mr. Joe Reed.

All right. I am on Twitter. in Letterbox at Crispy File, that's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Davy and Salas, and Gavin Meevius for their technical guidance, and Taylor Cole for a theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcast.

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