This Had Oscar Buzz - 298 – A Perfect World

Episode Date: July 1, 2024

Early in the 1990s, two westerns emerged as Best Picture winners when the genre was first thought dead: Kevin Costner’s Dances with Wolves and Clint Eastwood’s Unforgiven. In 1993, those heralded actor-directors would unite for A Perfect World, casting Costner as an escaped convict who takes a small boy hostage and teaches him about masculinity, with Eastwood as the … Continue reading "298 – A Perfect World"

Oh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Maryland Hack and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh I don't get a judge I tell them what's the right thing you do Kevin Costner

You're not bad, are you boats? Oh yeah Clint Eastwood At least now we know who's in charge In a new film by Academy Award-winning director Clint Eastwood Have you ever ridden in a time machine before? Out there, that's the future.

And back there, well, that's the past. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast playing Cinephile with Alice Drummond. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died,

and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my friendliest ghost, Joe Reed. I was wondering what you were going to break out. You being a kidnapped little boy in my stolen vehicle. I will say, that kid was... That's what, like, doing this podcast is, basically. That you've been kidnapped by me? Leave me at the wheel.

I've been, I've kidnapped you for, for five years now, and you are... No, I feel like I'm the one who's kidnapped you. Okay. I'm like, we're going on this ride. I'm staring out the back window in my Casper costume as Laura Dern in an RV drives past me, or whatever, in an airstream. We got to talk about this fucking movie. Are we going to disagree on this movie? Oh, did you really like it?

I think I kind of liked it. Okay, I'm glad that one of us did. So, good. Okay, I'm glad that one of us did. You and Siskel and Ebert can all huddle in a corner, and I will be... And as we'll talk about it, the French. The French. The French fucking loved this thing.

are you kidding me? Yeah. Well, good. I'm glad because I was worried it was going to be the both of us being like, oh, this movie. What are we even going to talk about? So, okay, this is good. This is better. Well, I mean, I also have a fun little game that I've thrown. Oh, yay. I figured, you know, we're talking some egos here today. You think. And we're talking male ego, especially. This is, this movie has a lot of things and themes that I tend to, roll my eyes at, but I do find that there is a delicate enough touch and enough interrogation of certain key elements. We mentioned this a little bit at the beginning of last week's episode, but this was initially supposed to be last week's episode. And it's funny that we could not have picked a more

heterosexual movie to have ended Pride Month with initially than a perfect world. Like there is just, even Laura Dern, not even Laura Dern can penetrate the heterosexuality on display in this movie. The Laura Dern thing, I do understand people's frustrations with her character because I knew that people felt that way about her in this movie. I ultimately think if she maybe was speaking more in, you know, the finale of this movie, it wouldn't be that way because, you know, it's Laura Dern. She can do a lot with, you know, just her face. And there can be story told there. But I don't know if the character is fully developed to the potential that it is. We'll get into sort of...

Yeah, we'll get into sort of my thoughts on that character and the rest. I think it's interesting to me that you mentioned that other people are dissatisfied with that performance. I'm surprised that, like, you have a sense of what other people think about this movie because... Well, I read old reviews. Okay, okay. That's got, because, like, this isn't, this is a movie that has been kind of memory hold for a movie that was well reviewed at the time. And as I mentioned, like, Siskel and Ebert both loved it. And it's, you know, Eastwood and Costner both sort of in their Oscar Halo period.

Which is fascinating. Which is fascinating. And we'll absolutely get into that. But I think that's also a huge contribution to why American audiences didn't respond to the movie, especially the, the way it's marketed, it's supposed to be like the showdown between the two actor-directors of Westerns. You could probably... You could probably screen this and have it in conversation with Heat a little bit. Obviously, Heat is the better movie, I think, and certainly the better remembered one. Like, there's that they're opposites in that way and that like Heat is so much more

remembered, you know, than a perfect world. But they're both movies that promise a showdown between two iconic actors and archetypes, and Heat denies you a little bit, and then this one denies you a lot. You know what I mean? We're like, Heat only gives you that one scene in the diner, and people bitched about that at the time, and yet it still gives you, like, the showdown between them at the end. And then this one kind of is even more withholding and ultimately is, like I said, it's been kind of memory hold. I've not heard people talk about this movie in forever in a day. I agree.

I mean, it's interesting because would you feel that way about those characters if it wasn't Clint Eastwood in his role, you know, if it was more of a character actor, which it feels like it's more written for a character actor than a movie star. you know, like it should be maybe an Rly ermie. It should be... Well, the pursuit of it feels somewhat Thelma and Louise

without the like feminist angle to it, right? But the actual like, the pursuit of it in that they're always a step behind they never quite catch up to him because like he gets killed once again ending at the beginning of the podcast, but he gets killed before like even like Eastwood can catch up to him.

Do you know what I mean? And that's sort of the ending. That's sort of how goes with Thelman Louise, and that, like, Kytel and, you know, the other, the authorities are after the women, and they never are able to fully catch up to them. And by the end, they've become, you know, sympathetic to them. And so it becomes this thing where, like, the cop is watching them, you know, get taken down. And they're very regretful about that. I don't know. I think there's something interesting in that, you know, lack of catharsis isn't the right word, but that lack of fulfillment, you know, it's, and that, you know, there can't be really a showdown between these two movie Titans because it's already too late. Right.

The idea of too late kind of permeates this movie in a really subtle way. And I think the whole, like, overarching thing on its perspective of mailness and, you know, like, male coming of age is ultimately a bleak one because I think it all goes to serve the idea that it's already too late to reach this eight-year-old. This eight-year-old who is probably going to, who is, the cards are stacked against him to become a, a good guy. It's probably already too late for an eight-year-old to change the cards that are stacked against them.

It is a... Which, like me taking a bleak read on this movie, of course, I'm the one who likes the scene. Yeah, it feels a little extra in that regard to me. A perfect world, not a perfect movie. But I do

think, you know... Yes. And I don't want to do the thing where it's like, for other movies in 1993, it wouldn't have even had the conversation that Laura Dern brings to the movie because it's like, well, it still doesn't complete that arc, but it does all go to serve an interrogation of maleness and very masculine maleness and very white masculine maleness in a way that I found much more delicate and interested or interesting than you might see of something of this time, especially from a studio, especially from someone like Clint Eastwood.

And I think some of Eastwood's most interesting movies run perpendicular to the image we have of Eastwood in masculinity and maleness and, you know, know, this male macho image. Definitely. And I think this is a movie that belongs in that conversation when you talk about his movies. I mean, I think for sure, especially because after this movie, he would sort of embark upon a decade of really kind of anonymous movies with like, you know, blood work and true crime. I don't know what absolute power you're talking about. But like it would really be up until, I mean, I'll respect to Space Cowboys, up until Mystic River before he was sort of. of like seen as an autore again after this movie.

Well, no, that's not true because Bridges of Madison County was definitely seen through that lens. But also, Bridges of Madison County, the book adaptation angle of it, I think, was, and the Merrill angle of it kind of swallowed the Clint's angle of it a little bit. So maybe I'm not entirely wrong. There is still that element, even at the time of, you know, churning gold out of... Sure. poop. Sure. Supermarket paperback bestseller kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It'll be an interesting conversation. I'm much more interested in having this conversation now that I know that you really like this movie, though. The other thing I think that kind of memory holds this movie is also with the Costner angle. This is when like Costner Egotomaniac begins to rear its head, but like obviously it would get so much worse. I'm excited.

I'm delighted to talk about 1990s Kostner, though. Like, we have not had this opportunity, and it's a rich vein, to be sure. So, um. Horizon currently in theaters. Who knows how much money it's making. It got bad reviews it can. I have never rooted for a movie that I'm certain I will not like to be a success than I am with Horizon.

Like, I, it's just a much more interesting year if Horizon, ends up being a success. Plus, I've now, like, pivoted to, like, rooting for everything to make money in theaters, just because, you know, it's, we're in, it's a team game right now, so, I just look at that Sienna Miller character poster for Horizon. And I just think to myself, he's really going to make us have to sit through four movies that may not even happen until we find out what her eyes are on. Yeah. so rude so rude so rude so rude um poor sienna miller is all i'm going to say poor sienna miller

seanna miller who was also horizon has like more than a one-two punch of sam sam worthington um-huh abby lee abby lee the not mea goth mea goth that's true she lost the mea goth sweepstakes Mia Gough ran away with that one. But even people like, God bless Danny Houston, but like Danny Houston will show up in a movie. Danny Houston is one of those two. Unfortunately, as great as he is in birth. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that cast. We'll see. I'll probably go see it with my mom. Not a bad idea. That's just like, this is the people that are going to go see it. Why would you believe Will Patton's in this movie? I wouldn't. Crazy.

Is Ray McKinnon in this movie? He should. be why the fuck is he not in horizon come on ray mackannon dust off those uh those blue jeans and get into this movie he shows up he shows up in the third one but only as a cameo because that's when the fire navvy show up in horizon in the horizon not the fire navvy are coming trust and believe i will be excited thomas hayden church angus mcfadden kathlin Dale Dickey. I mean, this is a cast that knows what it is.

That's fine. Okay. Joe, before we get into it, why don't you talk about our Patreon? Why don't I? If you are not already a member of This Had Oscar Buzz, Turbulent Brillance, which is the name of our Patreon, you should be because for $5 a month, you will get two bonus episodes per month, plus some other fancy doodads that we are throwing at you every now and then. But the big draw, of course, is the two bonus episodes per

month. The first of those episodes, monthly, we'll be calling exceptions. These are movies that fit the usual. This had Oscar Buzz rubric. Great Oscar expectations. Disappointing results, even if they got a nomination or two in the end. Previously, we've done films like Cameron Crow's Vanilla Sky, Aaron Sorkin's Molly's game, Aaron Sorkin's also Charlie Wilson's War, even though Mike Nichols directed that one. We did The Mirror Has Two Faces. We got our Barbara on. We had our friend Katie Rich come on to talk about Australia. Coming up on July 5th, we are going to be talking about a quiet place, which you would not have thought initially would have been an Oscar Buzzy movie. And yet the SAG nominating committee said, uh-uh, not so fast there. We are

are going to upend your expectations and put Emily Blunt squarely in the conversation. So we will- You also mention that's coming on the 5th. We should make it clear, starting in July. We're moving from episodes being on the 1st and the 15th. Too much competition with the main feed episode. So we're moving to 1st Friday, 3rd Friday. Okay. You've got it on Saturday on here, but I'll make a note. So it's the Friday. Oh, I just didn't change those days, but yeah. That's fine. The first Friday and the 3rd Friday. Friday of every month. Good note, Chris. The excursion episode for July is going to be an awards race check-in. So these excursion episodes are off-format stuff where we don't necessarily talk

about a movie, but we talk about some element of movie awards ephemera that appeals to us and hopefully to you. We will be checking in on the 2024 Oscar race. What the aftermath is to take the temperature. Yeah, take the temperature. See what the summer season has been bringing us. See what the of Cannes looks like. See if there's any scuttlebutt for the fall festivals. They may have announced TIF movies by then. We'll see. We'll see. Other previous excursion episodes, we recently did a episode on the 1999 Independent Spirit Awards, which was a very sort of interesting inflection point for independent cinema. We've talked about old EW fall movie previews,

THR roundtables. We've given our own end-of-the-year awards, which we will certainly be gearing up to do again. So this is all for $5 a month for the cost of a fast food item of your choice. What if it's a different one every time we mention this? What if I say this time it is for the cost of a crispy chicken sandwich at Burger King? a, what do they call there? I don't even know.

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and we're going to keep on having fun. So let's do it. A Perfect World 1993 How old were you in 1993 You young son of a bitch I was six years old when this movie came out A perfect movie for a six year old

You could relate to young T.J. Louther Maybe I too will be kidnapped by Kevin Costner one day I couldn't relate to T.J. Louther Because T.J. Louther the young actor starring in this motion picture he doesn't get to participate in Halloween

that's true I think you can imagine without much effort I was very into Hollywood what are you what were your like favorite Halloween costumes as a youth that you remember let's stick out to you cancel cancel me for my perspective as a young child

but I remember Halloween was often very cold here. Like, I remember it's snowing. Oh, yeah. We had a few in Buffalo, of course. A few snowy Halloween's. I mean, it was usually movie-based costumes, but I do remember having an argument with my mother trying to put a coat on me over my Aladdin costume, and I told her that it was not... Aladdin? God. It was not accurate because Aladdin couldn't wear a coat because he was too poor for a coat. That costume is far too skimpy for cold weather.

You'll freeze your tits off, man. Like, my God. Nope, authenticity was way more important to me. Listen, I was... The tassel on that fez just was not moving because it was an icicle at that point. Just it was... Suffering for my art.

I was being Aladdin in the part where Jafar casts him off to the winterland or whatever. and, like, he has to save a boo. That, that's, that was the fantasy I was giving. I was like, I can work with this. I like, I like, I like the idea of you giving, like, drag race style runway commentary as you're out of Halloween. Like, my fantasy is Aladdin. I'm giving, uh, I'm giving Aladdin in the winterlands realness.

Um, by the way, I watched at your, uh, suggestion, I watched the Lubush Lipsink for your life, uh, earlier today? It's a decent lip sync. I was just like, the season has been made somewhat acceptable because they finally did a Lubush lip sink. Is Plastic just throwing lip sinks? Is that, is that her strategy? Because she's just like, she declined to like even attempt doing the rap bridge on Be My Lover. Meanwhile, Angeria's like, don't mind if I do. So like, I feel like, yeah, she basically, she surrendered. Yeah, she surrendered it at that point. So, I didn't know whether that was a strategy or not, but... I'm pretty sure Plistique was the one that was one of the queens that had to do jump into line,

which is like, you're just making this queen look like a fool. There's no universe where she's going to turn that out. It is... Somebody needs to do a super cut. I was just happy to have the presence of Lubuz. Somebody needs to do a super cut of Lipsink for your lives that are incredibly outside of the wheelhouse of the queens, that are asked to perform them, because those are always just deeply funny, especially because when it's, like, so much more weighted to the other one, and the person's just like, like,

Bibi Zaharabenei and Trixie Mattel doing the boss. Diana Ross. Yeah, where Trixie's just like, all right, like, I'm going to give this money best. She quits herself one last, but she tries, but she knows she's not going to win. No, absolutely not. And Bibi turned that out. It's not, no shade to Bibi. That was a softball down the middle of the plate, but she did not get out of the park, so that's fine.

Love Bibi Sahara Bona. Anyway, yeah, let's get into a perfect world. Let's get on the other side of the plot description at this point so that we could talk about Eastwood, talk about... I've got to do a plot description. God damn it. Yeah, got to do a plot description. There's... Yeah, I'll figure it out. You're going to be fine. I'll figure it out.

Listener, we're here talking about A Perfect World, directed by Clint Eastwood, written by John Lee Hancock, starring Kevin Costner, T.J. Louther, Clint Eastwood, Laura Dern, Keith Zarabashka, Mary Alice, the great Mary Alice and Mary Alice showed up. I was like,

she's here to save day. Wayne to Hart, Ray McKinnon, Bradley Whitford, and Jennifer Griffin, the movie opened Thanksgiving weekend. 1993, and promptly disappointed at the box office. Yes, sure did. Before disappointing in award season. Yes.

Well, mostly. The most clearly defined of what was going to happen award season, maybe of our last time. Well, sure. That was the Schindler's list trains are coming down the road. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing about this movie is, like, they rushed it to get out. for the award season. They finished filming in like June and then they got this movie in theater. Which classic Clint Eastwood, you know, oh, I finished a movie over the weekend. Let's

get it out. Yeah. Exactly. But I, you know, this is, this is brackets complimentary because I think this movie looks amazing and a lot of those movies that, you know, give him that reputation look less than amazing in my opinion. But Joseph, are you ready to give a 60 second plot description for perfect sure why not all right then your 60 second plot description starts now Kevin Costner's name is butch in this movie he first of all we open on Kevin Costner's armpit and we linger on that for a minute then we flashback Kevin Costner is butch and um Keith Zarabotchka is terry they break out of prison on Halloween and they go break into the home of a family of jehovah's witnesses who are busy not celebrating the holiday um they kidnap the youngest or the whatever the

young boy child who goes by Buzz and they go on the run with him. Butch can't stand Terry. He ends up shooting him at some point and killing him. So now he's on the run with just a kid. Meanwhile, the authorities led by Clint Eastwood as an old school sort of Texas cop with the hat and whatnot is on the trail along with this rag tag group of Laura Dern who represents like criminal profiler lady who like no everybody's like sure. lady, like that's possible. And then the bizarrely cast Bradley Whitford as this like dead-eyed FBI agent who's just going to like be a remorseless killer. Anyway, they're on the trail in a in an airstream trailer. They're all debating the finer points of criminal profiling and

whatnot. Meanwhile, Kevin Costner and this kid, this kid is like Stockholm syndroming himself to Kevin Costner, who is teaching him about how to be a man because the kid had a bad, deadbeat father, and teaches him how to, like, hold a gun and drive a car, and they're on this sort of, like, cross-country trip to nowhere. And finally, uh, they kidnap this, essentially, like, hold this black family hostage. And the kid finally sees Butch for the criminal that he is. And he shoots him and he runs away. And then the cops catch up to him. And Bradley Whitford shoots him. And he's dying in a field. And Laura Dern's like, no, and Clean Eastwood's like, eh.

And then the kid cries, and then he's reunited with his mom, and Kevin Costner dies in a field, and the end. Almost a full minute over. Yeah, it's fine. What am I going to do? Bleak movie. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not cozy.

No, it's not. Here's the thing. I understand that I'm resisting the premise to a degree that I maybe shouldn't. that I should maybe just sort of like let it wash over me at some point. But like this idea that we're supposed to romanticize the relationship between Kevin Kossner and the kid when it's like this is this kid like trauma bonding to this criminal because it's the only way he's going to like survive the situation. This is not a conscious thing that the kid does.

But like this kid is Stockholm syndroming himself to Kevin Kossner. And I find it very hard to dad. Yes. Well, that's what the movie sort of says, right? That this kid doesn't have a dad. But also, it's just like, this kid was kidnapped. And that happens sometimes when, you know, people, you know, impressionable people are kidnapped is that they bombed to their kidnapper. And I'm like, I can't find anything. I know it's not supposed to be like comfy, cozy. But like, John Lee Hancock did write this screenplay. So like, I am not going, I am not prone to giving John Lee Hancock a whole lot of credit for additional news. nuance beyond what I'm seeing. So, John Lee Hancock, who made movies like The Blind Side and what else has he done? What else is he done? As if I, Villalimo, the blindside, saving Mr. Banks, the founder, the little things. You know what I mean? Like, these are the films of John Lee Hancock. Anyway, I found it hard to invest myself in this relationship between Costner and the kid, because I'm like,

It's not real. You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it all takes place over a real short span of time. That's the other thing. Yeah. It's only a matter of like three days or something. Yeah. Like I get that the kid's mom isn't fun because she doesn't let them celebrate Halloween. But still, I can't imagine this kid like not wanting to go home more than, I don't know. I'm probably like reading too much like normal. I'm not sure that the movie offers an alternative. But I also don't think it's like, well, if there's not a dad at home, you know, I don't think that the movie is doing that thing. Well, that's the other thing. It invests so much in this vision of masculinity of like, this kid did not have a father. Like, the worst fate that can befall a person is to not have a masculine role model to grow up with. You know what I mean? Like, so that he must turn to this criminal. Okay.

But I do think it's like he is inherently more. vulnerable, but I don't think it's like, well, there should be a dad. You know, it's because I don't think it's against the mother. Well, even though it's like their Jehovah's Witnesses. She could not be, she might as well be like festooned in black and white the way that like detox was at that one drag race finale. Where it's like she could not be like painted as more of. She's Dorothy on the farm. She's not fun.

She's just not fun. Well, I just found it. to be an interesting thing that fully, you know, the real world milieu that this movie is trying to take place in in like early 1960s, Middle America. Yes, those type of people existed, but those are, you know, if you see, if you see them in a movie, there's some fringe character who maybe doesn't have a single line, but like they exist in the background. Sure.

But it was interesting to be dropped in with at least a character who comes from that. You know, it just, it felt like something we haven't really seen in these type of movies, though it's fully something that exists. But to have that sort of twinned with this like the police angle of it, which is Clint Eastwood as the, you know, the cop, the Texas cop said in his ways, and Laura Dern as the face of modernity coming to change his job forever because she's like, maybe that we can like get into the. heads of these criminals a little bit. And then, you know, and then this, this trailer that he's, that he's forced to, like, ride around in, which is this, like, sold is this, like, weird technical marvel of, like, it's a mobile command center. And it's, like, meanwhile, like, it's festooned with, you know, bunting and, like, it's the Fourth of July and whatever. And it's just, like, you basically have this, like, Oogahorn as you're, like, coming down being, like,

police, whatever, police command center. It's, so it's this, you know, the future is coming and Clint Eastwood doesn't like it. And then that then is tied to this other angle of like, it is funny to see Bradley Whitford, the like consummate bureaucrat, right, in so many things now, sold as this like remorseless, soulless assassin type of an FBI agent who's only there. to, like, shoot something. And I'm like, all right, okay. I guess I'm investing in this.

Why not? I could be giving the movie a little bit more credit, or maybe I'm just willing to, I guess, because... That's fine. That's fine. I can so clearly see the version that Eastwood would maybe make today, where his movies have such a heavy hand. And I think, you know, it's not the most delicate approach, but by comparison, this is a much more... It's an Eastwood that definitely trust the audience a lot more. That's true.

You know, it respects the audience's intelligence a lot more than something like the Mule or Grand Toreno, in my opinion. That, you know, it kind of works. And I think if we're going to see the cop side, the pursuit side of this story, we have to kind of be given a reason to see it if it's not a shot. showdown between you know right cop and criminal right if that's not what the intention of the story is and i think the way that you know while probably the that first confrontation scene between durn and eastwood is the most heavy-handed in telling us what it is talking what the movie is trying to talk about you know i do think that it it ties those ideas together in a way that paints a bigger picture of

like the type of masculinity that it's talking about that you maybe wouldn't fully get from just the story of the boy and the criminal. Yeah. I mean, I think it does a lot of sort of typical movie tricks, which, like, that's not necessarily a complaint. Like, you know, movies have been doing this kind of thing forever of, like, we're giving you Kevin Costner, who's, like, a criminal, but we're going to line him up side by side with a real son of a bitch.

you know what I mean? Like a real bad guy in the other guy who he breaks out with who like he flat out is like I don't like you. When we get out of here we're going to go our separate ways or whatever and so he's then so that's this allows us to slot Costner into the

role of the good guy even though he's you know sort of more universally speaking a bad guy but he's not as bad as Terry so you know we get that kind of a thing and it's a kind it's a pretty traditional for a movie that I think is asking you to kind of reflect on

these maybe more uh outside the box ideas of like what it means to have you know what it means to have a role model you know what I mean and and you know the necessity of that and that kind of thing to also have these very kind of, you know, cliched, I'll say, which is, again, I don't always hate. I think maybe we are more down on cliche than we maybe should be sometimes. I think sometimes just because you can recognize something as an off-to-use premise doesn't necessarily make it bad. But I don't know. I found myself not being able to invest in this. I think it's also a real slow starter. I think it you spend it's a slow ender too. The finale of this movie takes it. It does take its time, but at least by that point, you're sort of like invested in it.

By that point, I am sort of creepo that I am being like, how are they going to get it to end with the armpit the way it began with the armpit? I'm like, there's so much blood in the frame here. Like, what's going on? And they manage it. They figure it out. It's a beautifully framed shot of grass and money and Kevin Costner's arm. And you know what? I think that's beautiful. So that's funny. The finale of this movie, I do think, is really, really great.

And that shot, well, when Kevin Costner gets the fatal shot that he's a foot away from the child is one of the more shocking images, I think I've seen in a Clint Eastwood movie. And it's devastating at that point, too. Yeah. I read some, you know, interpretation of this movie that, like, the movie, could be interpreted that Butch and Buzz are essentially the same person. Butch is literally, you know, seeing some vision of his own childhood. And that's a little bit much for me. I think that type of...

Metaphorically sure, but like... Transference, that type of idea, the philosophical idea that they are the same person, that they are, you know, of the same experience and that... Yeah. Buzz looking at Butch is looking at his own future, I think is really potent for what this movie is going after. To me, it's a little bit of a hard sell, though, to be like Buzz is looking at his future when it's like, just because he doesn't have a dad and his mom is super unfun, means he's going to grow up to be a criminal. Like, I'm not sure, like, I'm connecting those dots. You know what I mean?

Well, I think it's also just that the male influence is so pervasive. And the, and toxic male influence is pervasive as well, that it so easily can destroy someone. Except, do you feel like this movie ends with that kind of ambivalence that ends with this kind of like, ah, the kid is back with his mother, but what, you know, what will this episode of his life mean for him going forward? Or is it just like, no, I think it's a tragic end thing. I don't think it's ambivalent. I mean, I definitely think that there, it's, it's not just trash. tragic for Butch, but I definitely think it's meant to be tragic for Buzz, too. He's been a witness to this violence that didn't need to have anything to do with him, you know? And I think there's

something about Butch that is so ultimately pathetic in his, like, violence. There's no, like, forward momentum or, like, acceleration in this. It's all, all of his violence is kind of arbitrary. Yes. You know, even the, even the thing with Terry, it's like, that could have happened at any minute when he finally, you know, like assaults him and kicks him out. Right. And then when they tie up this family, the tragedy of that is on top of, like, Buzz witnessing, having to witness all of this and all of this having to be inflicted upon this family is like,

watching it as the audience, you don't know the full, like, it doesn't make sense that he's doing it. He's doing it because he's compulsively. violent person. I think that's the thing is that, um, that sequence begins with Butch having a plausibly justified reason for doing this because the grandfather slaps around the grandkid, and obviously Butch, you know, uh, does not take well to that. And you think like, oh, well, at least he's, he's only being, you know, violent to this man who's, you know, physically harming this kid right while there are like essentially still just a he's a reactionary person well especially because when you see him continue on and like now he's duct taping mary alice's mouth shut and now he's

duct taping you know the kid and mary alice you know together and all this sort of stuff and it's like oh okay so like this is now this is no there is no longer any righteousness to this this is just cruelty and violence and self-preservation he's doing this so that he won't get caught now. And that's when the kid ultimately shoots him. And you know, whatever, like the scales fall from his eyes. And this, you know, hero of his now has shown himself to be a bad man. And he shoots him and yada, yada, yada. I do feel like there is a sense, though, with the end of this movie, where it's maybe asking its audience to walk away and be like, this is a terrible, you know, interlude in this boy's life, but he's going to be

better for having known this man, for having this, the influence of this man. I'm not so sure. Okay. I'm not so sure. All right. But, like, because I'm not so sure, I totally understand, you know, a mainstream audience showing up at Thanksgiving time to sit down with this movie. Well, that is, like, I'm not so sure because I just, I kind of feel.

like the average audience number in middle America is going to be like well that was fucking depressing what am I supposed to get from this not that he's going to be okay for having I don't feel like the lesson is or the movie's intention is that

this relationship is somehow going to be formative or he is going to be bettered by something about it I think the intention is he's going to be destroyed he is going to become himself that's not the vibe I get from any kind of John Lee Hancock script and I do think it's the stuff of an Eastwood movie though

sure sure but in the way that we know that Clint Eastwood makes movies do you think he's taking time to like revise that script you know what I mean or is he just like grabbing the pages on the day and go in and filming I mean maybe and this is also John Lee Hancock's only second produced script too he had one movie that he also directed before this yeah I think has been from the face of the earth called Hard Time Romance. Uh-huh. Couldn't find much detail on that one. I want to talk about Hot Costner, because this is right in the sort of in the thick of

Hot Costner. This is probably actually close to the end of the Hot Costner era. So I feel like we can track this. We all listen to, or maybe not all of us, but a lot of us probably listen to erotic 80s and the episode on No Way Out. It is not to be underestimated. A, how hot Kevin Costner is in no way out, but B, how much of that movie was sold on that fact? Like, I love the poster is just, like, Kevin Costner's nipple and, like, things are, like, placed around it symmetrically.

Do you know what I mean? Like, that is the center of that poster. It's very funny. Then he makes Bull Durham in 1988, where he and Susan Sarandon are just hot as you please, and he's sort of sold as this icon of, like, Tim Robbins is youthful, you know, unfocused energy, and he sort of is made to look like a fool in the movie, whereas Costner is older and more secure in himself and doesn't let this woman walk all over him, right? He's sort of a match for her in a way that Robbins just sort of lets her run his life. So Costner and Sarandon, and that's another one where

Take a look at the poster. Susan Sarandon is like the platonic ideal of the sweater falling off of the shoulder in that poster. After that, he does Field of Dreams in 89, which isn't necessarily hot Costner because he's kind of a doofus in that movie. But he's a hot dufus. But he is wearing tight jeans. Well, and a white t-shirt. Tight jeans, white t-shirt. Like, he's literally a farm.

He's a farm boy in that. And that he's a, you know, Berkeley transplant farm boy, but still. Love Field of Dreams. Dances with Wolves in 1990. He wins the Oscar. That's not really hot, Costner. He's really, you know, he's laden down with facial hair and, you know, the costuming and whatnot. But that's his serious movie, right?

And it still does have, like, it has a shoehorned in romantic subplot. So that's why you know that he was, you know, considered a romantic lead. And they were like, must have romantic subplot with the Marymount. Best picture, best director Oscar. All of it. Classic. But what I really want to do is direct. That was the sort of era of Hollywood where all the big stars had to become directors.

1991 Robin Hood Prince of Thieves is maybe the apex of Hot Costner in that it's a movie where he plays Robin Hood. and they worked their damnedest to shoehorn in a scene where he is naked underneath a waterfall and you get the Kastner Butte scene. Mastr Antonio just happens upon Kostner Butt. Listen. Not only Kostner But, but Kostner But under a waterfall. I'm saying. Waterfalls were big in the late 80s because remember cocktail? There was a whole sex scene in them, like in a little cove.

uh tom cruise and elizabeth shoo in cocktail um robin hood he's so hot costner and that it's like it is you know white hot like it is you know could burn through metal remember it'sner obviously to the point that it's like the man can't speak in an english accent and like everybody's trying to make fun of how like bad his accent is in the movie and the rest of us are like do you think We care. We're not listening to him speak. We are not here. We're here for waterfall. But there's the big climactic scene where he saves her from the Sheriff of Nottingham. And it's the one that's shown like featured in the music video at like a crescendo point where he rushes to her and she rushes to him and they sort of crash into each other and they start kissing. And they could not be wearing more clothes. Like he has like pelts and leathers and everything like he's. Like he's. She's just like... She's in a duvet. And this is after Alan Rickman, as the sheriff of Nottingham, has been, like, trying to assault her. So he's already, like, taken off layers of her clothes. And she's still wearing a duvet. So, like, this... And even still, this, like, crash into each other and this kiss is sort of this, like, super, like, hot romantic, you know, yada, yada. Um, JFK, not, uh, not an integral part of the hot Costner narrative, but it is... But it does show that he can also do, not only bodice ripping hot, he can also just be hot guy in glasses. Yes, that's a very glasses-focused performance in that movie in JFK.

The bodyguard in 1992, back to Hot Costner, nothing, even with a horrendous Caesar haircut in that movie, which is bad, bad. That man had a good head of hair throughout the late 80s and early 90s, and it was completely sacrificed. for this horrible short little bodyguard haircut, but whatever. He and Whitney Houston, it's sort of sold as this like undeniable pairing of like sexual chemistry. It's less than a sum of its parts because I think while they were like got along very well in real life, like Kastner's always sort of talking about how much he loved Whitney Houston. He spoke at her funeral.

Did you ever see the clip of him speaking at Wendy Houston's funeral? I think it's Kevin Costner in front of an entire dais of Whitney's family and friends and church, you know, whatever. And it's like, it's like entire dais of black people. And then it's Costner in front. And then you don't see her, but like Sissy Houston is in the front row. And he's sort of like he addresses her several times. And it's so very much like Costner, the white guy that got brought home for the holidays to the black family. And he's like, and he's like, and he. He's, you know, the process of this speech is him ingratiating himself to this audience, who you can tell is maybe a little bit skeptical of like, what's this white guy doing speaking at Whitney's funeral? And he like completely, he talks about like, I grew up in the church, just like Whitney grew up in the church. And the people behind him were like, yes, yes, yes. Like, you know, it's while in, of course, a solemn setting, it's still a little wryly amusing

to watch Costner, you know, win over the room, you know, the room. You know, the room. full of black people while he's giving the speech for Whitney's funeral. But anyway, the chemistry on screen in the bodyguard, I don't think it's quite there. It's Whitney's first movie. It's tough to like, you know. The biggest heat comes from when, from the sword scene, which I mean, any sexual tension from a sword scene comes down to the sword probably. Right. So the bodyguard. There should be more of those, though. More sword scenes in cinema, agreed. More scenes where a sword is used as a symbol for the human penis, yes. A perfect world comes right after the bodyguard.

After a perfect world, I'm trying to find, like, what are the hot Kossner ones? He's hot in Waterworld, but in like a really kind of ridiculous way where he's like a half-merman, right? And that one, doesn't he have like gills and whatever in Waterworld? Isn't that the whole thing? He sure does. He evolved. I mean, Tin Cup is kind of. Tin Cup is definitely, it's another Ron Shelton movie, Ron Shelton, who made Bull Durham.

So it's another, he and Renee Rousseau are not as hot as him in Sarandon, but like, they're pretty hot. He does a couple more romances after this. He does message in a bottle, which is kind of a bomb in 1999 with Robin Wright. I've never seen 3,000 miles to Graceland, the one where he's in Elvis impersonators. Or like a bank robber who dresses up like Elvis something. But there's a lot more movies where it's like he's Wyatt Earp. It's not like he's scorching off of the screen in Wyatt Earp. The postman is not really sex.

You know, they haven't really shoehorned sex into that. For Love of the Game, he's on a pitcher's mound for pretty much the entirety of that movie. Baseball pants, though. Well, that's true. You make a decent point about baseball pants. But at least at this point, what we're saying is he's becoming like Kashmir sexy. He's becoming... Yes, yes.

There are no more waterfall scenes. He's not, don't go chasing waterfalls. There's beach sunset scenes now. Or like open range where he's like, he looks over and there's Annette Benning standing in an open doorway staring long. With the wind blowing. Yes. Yeah. Upside of anger is a comeback, but it's almost like the exception that proves the rule at that point because like it was so celebrated by the people who saw that movie.

Like, oh, like, Costner, he's back a little bit. What's going on? And then that same year is Rumor Has It, where I think he and Aniston just do not have chemistry in that movie at all. So we did that movie. We've done that movie. We did that and the upside of anger. We did. Remember it being very bad. And I don't remember anything about Rumor Hasett. So, yeah, I don't know. So this, this is a particular era. of Costner. It's sometimes tough, I think this was a thing that Carina Longworth mentioned in the No Way Out episode of Erotic 80s, is it's sometimes tough to sell younger people on the idea that Kevin Costner was as much of a sex symbol as he was. But like people were, first of all, the sex symbols of the late 80s were very funny. If you look at like all those like sexiest man alive, it's, you know, it's Kevin Costner, it's Mel Gibson, it's, um, uh,

well, Richard, Richard gear's fine, but like Richard gear, do you know what I mean? Where it's like these, it's a particular kind of like where it's now you look back and you're like, huh, like Tom Cruise you get, right? Tom Cruise, you're like, well, yeah, of course. Like, you know, of course he was a haughty bag man. It's the era of the man in the tight jeans because it's like all of those men you listed. It's part of it is like the way that they wear denim. Like it, I can't explain it in any other way. Yeah.

You know, it's, it's, like, denim that's basically sewn onto their body. Yes. It's an era of that. Yes, absolutely. Redford had that appeal to him. Obviously, this was like when Redford was sort of retreating to the ranch in Utah and whatnot. So, yeah. Yeah, I think that's right.

I think that's right. And then I think we moved into a more steadily towards a more sort of action hero haughty in the 90s and then into, I don't even know, like, what is, I mean, the conversation then becomes, like, what has become of the movie star in America. I do think we're at an evolution point because it, I think we're moving away from Uberhunk into, we're literally moving into rat guy territory. Like, there was a whole thing of going up, of calling people, like, rat guy or rat boyfriend, whatever it is. I have my thoughts. But it is, the taste is moving more square. And I am very, very funny. I find that discourse to be kind of unhinged in the way that the media is talking about it, where they're like, the year of the rat boy. Everybody wants a rat boyfriend and whatever. And it's just like, these guys are still like textbook hot. They're talking about like, you know, Josh O'Connor. Josh O'Connor, Jeremy Allen White, Mike Feist, whatever. It's like, these guys are still like super lean, have, you know, have.

abs, have defined arms, have, like, you know, cute asses and probably big dicks. But they're not super macho. No, right. But that's what I mean is I think the point that you're making is that we have kind of reached saturation point on the pumped up muscle steroid. Not that we're not still pumping our action stars full of steroids, but I think we've ceased to find that kind of thing hot, or at least not as hot as we used to. I think now what we're getting is, is we want a little more, we want a little more freak in our man. You know what I mean? And I think that's what we're getting, rather than, like, the way that some of these

trend pieces are, are like, check out the snout on Josh O'Connor. It's like, that's not what we're talking about. Like, it's about big ears and big noses. It's like, no, it's about guys who seem like they have a little bit of a freak in them. And that's what we're talking. Yeah, it's like a few editors are obsessed with the fact that the guys that we're hot for now don't have symmetrical features, even though, you know. Right, right.

It's like, that's not it. That might be like what you're glomming onto, but it's, that's, that's not what we're going for vibe-wise. It's a temperament thing. It's not necessarily a physicality thing. That's exactly it. Because, like, the hunkiest, most macho of them is Jeremy Allen White. Yes.

But there is still. But Jeremy Allen White, if you look at him in any of his roles, he's not selling hunk. he's selling like fucked up like you know what I mean like he's he's selling edgy he's selling like you know frayed nerves kind of a thing and but it's these these fashion pieces the tone of them is all just like somehow people find these men attractive and I guess that's just because they must have a thing for rats they must just want to fuck rats and it's like you People are so fucking beauty-pilled, I can't even...

They have flushed away on their letterbox. Seriously, seriously, right? These Templeton-ass freaks who all they want to do is fuck rats. And, I don't know, man. Anyway, um... No, we just like that Josh O'Connor eats bananas and churros like that in challenges. We like that Josh O'Connor looks better in... in a dirty linen suit

that I could ever imagine to be. Right. Right. Exactly. If I showed up looking like that, you would toss me into the streets. Can and would. Yes. Okay. So do we want to... All right, let's get into the Dern character

here, who I think is... I feel bad for Laura Dern. I think she's sort of set out to see in this movie. I think she's given a very thankless role. I was glad at least that she in Eastwood don't end up romantically involved by the end of this movie because I was really thinking it was going to end that way. But she still sort of like ends up surrendering to him as a like masculine figure, right? We're like, she's upset at the end after Whitford shoots Costner.

And she's almost like sort of like burying her head in Eastwood's shoulder for comfort and whatnot. And he's the Eastwood's character is ultimately unchallenged in his supremacy as the criminal fighter. We don't really ever see him accede to her kind of like criminal profiling methods, right? The best that he does is he defends her when Bradley Whitford sort of, you know, aggresses her. Anne seems like he's going to try and, you know, physically assault her or whatever. So I think she's not portrayed as like the harpy, you know what I mean? She's not the nag of this movie as much as she could be. But, like, she's not ultimately, you know, the hero.

She's not allowed to be the hero. No. And, like, while I appreciate some of. what her character's presence brings to this movie and, like, the notes that it allows to explore, because I feel like it's essential to the movie working. I don't feel like it's enough as a character in a way. She felt like a studio note a little bit. We need a woman. But you also need purpose for this side of the story, because otherwise is, how do you keep it from being just the generic?

generic, the cops are on pursuit type of story. And I think Eastwood wants to do more than a simple cops and criminals movie. But, like, I also think maybe the weaker half of the movie is Eastwood's character, which is also underwritten to me a little bit. Oh, Eastwood's incredibly underwritten in this movie, yes. Well, it's also the thing of just like, if you're expecting a big Clint Eastwood performance, you're not. going to get it. It's he didn't originally want to star in the movie and you can see why, because it's, it's meant for more of a character actor than a movie star. We should also mention that Laura Dern is also in an Oscar Halo moment, as is Eastwood and Costner, because she's

only a couple. She's two years out of her Oscar nomination, so it's like, she does some TV movies after her nomination, but her leveling up as being in a Clint Eastwood movie and a Bealberg. Well, that's the same year as... Spielberg year. Yes, as Jurassic Park, which is, like, is the boon to her career, even though she was already an Oscar nominee for Rambling Rose. Have you ever seen Rambling Rose? Yeah, I don't like it.

It's not great, no. She's good in it. I don't know why Diane Ladd was nominated for that one, but two in a row for Diane, so that was cool. Yeah. But, yeah. this Laura Dern in this era I think it's everything pre-Jurassic Park it's maybe that she's like her eyebrows are so dark

in that like I don't know like it's just like her face looks different I don't know where you go I don't know it's just like you know I don't know you don't place her as well not that I don't place her as well but just like there is there's an old Laura Dern face and a new Laura Dern face and I don't really think she like tinkered with it as much. And I'm like, so what's the difference? And I think it's just that, like, at some point, she started dyeing her eyebrows. And there we have it. Oh, yeah. Makes a difference. Makes a difference. Now, her hair got lighter because she was so frightened by the dinosaur. She was so in awe. Love her in Jurassic Park. Now, that is a movie. That is a movie where she is not the lead character, but that movie serves her well. It gives her some moments. It, you know,

know, treats her as an integral part of the team, the squad, and I think does kind of everything that a perfect world doesn't. She gets the big hubris monologue. She gets the hubris monologue. She has the funny little line where she has to stick her hand in the triceratop shit. She gets flirted with Jeff Goldblum, and it feels like she's, you know, giving as good as she gets. And I don't know. I think she gets a lot to do. I think she gets a lot to do. I think she gets a lot to do. for not the main character. She also, Mr. Hammond, we're back in business and she's running away. She gets a lot to do in that movie.

And so I think... Maybe I'll watch Jurassic Park tonight. But this is the year of Spielberg, which, if there was a year to rush out a movie for the award season, 1993 was maybe not the year to do so. Sure. Because Schindler's business is coming. Yes. So clearly going to be the best.

picture winner of that year. It's fascinating to see what other movies kind of rounded out the picture around Schindler's list, right? Where, like, the piano was very much the indie sensation that year, right? We're like, this was Jane Campion

sort of, it's not her first movie. But, like, she is now announcing herself. It's, you know, Holly Hunter with, you know, we never knew she had this performance in her kind of a thing. The critics love that movie. The, yeah, the fugitive coming from the other side where it's like if schindler's list is going to be this

incredibly somber best picture winner then the fugitive kind of had the fun popcorn like elevated popcorn movie thing lane all to itself where it's just like we got to nominate this movie that's just like the most like solid action blockbuster you know of this kind where it's not like it's not creatures it's not dinosaurs it's you know regular people, but it's, you know, this crackerjack thriller. And so the fugitive gets in there. Can't not have a Daniel Day Lewis movie when he makes one. So in the name of the father. Reuniting with Jim Sheridan. And then the Merchant Ivory thing, too, where at that point, like, you know, merchant ivory were undeniable. This was only the one year after Howard's end and they're like,

well, they're back, back, back again. And just as good as ever, the remains of the day fucking rules. So... Mike Nichols' last Oscar nomination. Yeah. No? Yes. What? Who's last Oscar nomination?

Did he... Mike Nichols. Did he have a director nomination after that? I don't think he did. Mike Nichols was nominated for The Remains of the Day? For Best Picture, yeah. Interesting. Was he nominated after that?

I kind of don't... I don't think he was. Interesting. Wow. Great movie The Remains of the Day. That's a great... That is a, I've said it before, that is a low-key, incredible best picture year. Where the obvious one to drop out is in the name of the father, and it's still a pretty good movie.

It's still a pretty good movie. Like, in the name of the father, is a good movie. The fugitive being there is so interesting being that it's such a big Spielberg year. Yes. And, you know, their big popcorn movie that they put in is the fugitive and not Jurassic Park. They were never going to put Jurassic Park in a best picture field of file. I suppose that's very true. If it was a 10 and if it was now, it absolutely probably would be.

Well, and even with it being a bygone conclusion that Spielberg would be winning best picture that year, I would imagine that Spielberg being the savvy and knowledgeable person about these things would also be like, we can't have Jurassic Park competing in any way. I can't. But it's still cleaned up in the... Yeah, because this Spielberg still hadn't won at this point. too, so they weren't going to do anything that would probably jeopardize the chances

even though it was so obvious. But you look at that, so Schindler's List wins picture, director, adapted screenplay, it wins score, it wins art direction, and it wins

cinematography, of course, in editing. And then Jurassic, so that's what? One, two, three, it wins seven. then Jurassic Park goes and wins, visual effects of course, of course, of course, kind of child am I, visual effects, sound and sound effects, right? Your classic blockbuster awards. So that's 10 of a possible, you know what I mean? Like, it's basically Spielberg has won like half of the awards at this whole thing. And that's without winning any acting awards, which, Ray finds how to have been close. He was definitely seen a second, I think. He was definitely seen running second. But, like, Tommy Lee Jones was kind of running away with that.

I love, I think, I think Ray Fines is incredibly impressive in Schindler's list. I can't imagine not giving it to Tommy Lee Jones for The Fugitive. He's so, he's so good in that. He's so, you know, magnetic and electric. I don't know. Why? You're smiling at me as if I'm being seen. No, no, no, no, no. I would give it to Ray Fines, but I don't begrudge the opinion.

you have. I'm also somewhat surprised that Ben Kingsley didn't get more play as like a second supporting actor nominee. Kingsley rules in that movie. Incredible. Anyway. John Malkovich nominated for In the Line of Fire

starring none other than Clint Eastwood. Right. That was the more popular Clint Eastwood plays a law enforcement professional movie that year. That was a Wolfgang Peterson movie. the line of fire is, it's, it's a, you know, it's a thrill ride, fun. It's, you know, giving you what you want. I would say, again, rushing a perfect world to get out for this particular award season, maybe not the way to go. And dropping it in a holiday season when the movie is a downer. Yeah. What looks like on its surface is a genre thing. But then when you watch the movie, it's a little bit,

Reaching to be more contemplative than, you know, X, Y, and C story beats satisfying, sending the audience out happy. This would have been a better movie to have maybe tried to save for a festival run at some point in the next year. Hold on to it and bring it to Cannes because clearly the French loved it. So, you know. The French love it. In 93, following, this is something we haven't ever talked about before. But, like, I'm always fascinated by the Kaye. The Kaye de Cinema, one of the...

These is the... You know, they go in and out of favor. Like, I think it's at a point now where people are kind of rolling their eyes at the... Well, people... Also, sight and sound, I think, has kind of taken over as the shorthand for sort of film snobb publication of choice. Yeah, but people are even rolling their eyes at the sight of sound... Well, they're always going to roll their eyes at the snobby, whatever the snobby... film rankings are. After putting Unforgiven as their number one of 92, the Kaye ranked

Perfect World, their number one film of 1993. This, you know, there is some prestige that goes with it. The Kaye has a reputation. They are the publication that really kind of popularized, along with many very, very, very noteworthy names who were writing for them, popularized, like appreciation for genre filmmaking, such as, like, Alfred Hitchcock being among the greats, you know, you had associations with Goddard, Truffaut, et cetera. So through many, many decades since they've been in publication in the mid-century, they carry a certain amount of weight among film snobs, especially the French. And Clint Eastwood is the most.

awarded American filmmaker ever with 10 mentions on their list throughout his career and I have made a little quick for Mr. Joe related to each of the 10 years that Clint Eastwood showed up on the Cuyahead of Cinema's top 10 films list I didn't do any of the decades one

because he does show up on the 90s decade list because they issued decade lists as well. I think most recently the big thing about the Kaye that made people be annoying about them is that they put Twin Peaks as the best movie of its decade decade decade. Twin Peaks the return, that is? So fucking mad. And, you know, I'm so happy that we're outside of

is Twin Peaks a movie discourse because my answer is, who cares? It's not, no. No, no, no. The answer is no, it's not, because it's a TV show, because it's a TV show. It is a TV show. If you're, if you're someone who's going to enjoy Twin Peaks of the return, you're just going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to. Who cares? Sure. But also, facts are facts and words have definitions. And you can't take a fucking 10-part TV series and say it's a movie just because you want to, elevate it above the level of other TV shows.

And just because you feel like you can't love it if you can't, you know, elevate it into movie status. It's a TV show. You loved a TV show. Fucking deal with it. Live with that shame. Live with the shame of loving a TV show. Idiots. I would never feel shame about the produced material and...

Listen, I don't feel shame about loving TV. shows because Claim to Fame is about to come back for its third season, the best show on Taylor. Anyway, anyway, anyway. I have a quick quiz for Joe on the Cayae de Cinema as it relates to Clint Eastwood and his 10 mentions on the list and American Cinema. Okay. Can you name the 10 films directed by Clint Eastwood that have made the Cayae to Cinema top 10 list? Oh, I hope one of them, Space Cowboy.

Space Cowboys is. Motherfucker. All right, now I know what we're dealing with. Okay. Obviously, a perfect world and unforgiven, I've mentioned. So you have seven more. I mean, it's tough to remember which of the older movies he directed and which ones he just starred in, which is annoying. So I'm going to stick with some of the newer ones for the moment. Sully? Incorrect. Not Sully. God. Okay.

Million dollar baby. Incorrect. A million dollar baby. All right. All right. I see how it goes. I see how it works. Bridges of Madison County. Bridges of Madison County is correct, though they did not list it as the number one movie of 1995. In their 90s decade list, they listed the Bridges of Madison County as the best movie of the 90s. Wow. Okay.

what did they say was there they're in the moment choice for 95 oh let me let me take a quick gander is a copycat I bet it was copycat copycat copycat copycat rule I shouldn't slight copycat wouldn't you like to know um this is also giving me some time to gather think of other movies oh no great movie best movie of 1995, uh, as of that publication. Claude Chabrelle's La Ceremony. Sure. Isabelle Luper, Sandrine Bonner. Great movie.

Back to Eastwood. I'm going to guess Bird? Bird, his first time on the Cayet. Okay. Okay. You still have five movies. Is like blood work one of them? No, not blood work.

There is two movies we have covered on this podcast. Okay. We already are counting a perfect world, right? Yes. What Eastwoods have we done? Oh, my God, is it the mule? The mule. Motherfucker. And then what was the other Eastwood that we did? This is double-digit episodes, for sure.

Okay. Maybe not, because I think we might have done this during, like, COVID lockdown COVID. Oh, God. Okay. Well, we haven't done hereafter. because it got a nomination. Although we should do that. Has a performance we loved? Has a performance we loved?

Yes. Clint Eastwood is not in this movie. Okay. Wait, but before I guess that one, did Richard Jewell make the... Richard Jewel did not make the list. Everybody at Trivia last night was real sticking up for Richard Jewel. He had some real Richard Jewel.

Some real Richard Jewel energy at Trivial last night. Um, okay. Early, early, this had Oscar Buzz episode on a Clint Eastwood movie with a performance we really loved. That he does not star in, but there is a performance we loved. It's, God, he makes a goddamn movie every year. Okay, so, Changeling was nominated for things. It's not Grand Tarino. It's not flags of our fathers. It's not Letters from Iwo Jima, obviously. It's not American sniper, obviously.

It's... Is it post-million-dollar baby? It is not. It's a pre-million dollar baby. Pre-Mistic River. It's not Bridges Madison County, because that was a nominee. The performance we love might be someone playing them. Oh, it's midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil.

Okay. It sure is. Do you want to guess any of those titles you did say that were not this movie? Oh, okay. Mystic River? Incorrect. Not Mystic River. Okay.

Did I guess? I already guessed Bridges of Madison County. You said Bridges at Madison County. We are waiting on three movies, two of which you said the title as not the one you were trying to guess. Flags of Our Father's. flags of our fathers. The Kaye went for flags of our fathers and not letters from Yujiua. Hereafter?

Not hereafter. Okay. One that he does star in is the... One that he does star in, Grand Tarino. Grand Tarino is correct. And one more, which I don't think you have mentioned, and we haven't mentioned in this whole episode at all, I don't know anything about this movie

Other than the poster Is it the 15-17 to Paris or whatever? No Oh, that movie was awful Didn't see it Other than the poster It is between Midnight and the Garden of Good and Evil

And Space Cowboys Is it Absolute Power It's not absolute power Is it true crime? It's true crime. I don't get it. I don't get it.

All right. Now we're going to go through each of the years that those Eastwood films appeared on the Cayet list. And I'm going to have some fun trivia questions for you as it relates to other American films that showed up on the Cayet list. In 1988, Eastwood's first appearance on the Cayet Top 10 for Bird marks the fifth appearance of the American director with the second most appearances on the Cayet Top. names. Name the director and film, which received one Oscar nomination. Stephen Spielberg, Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade. Incorrect. Well, Working Girl was 88, and that got a lot more than one nomination.

Woody Allen? Not Woody Allen. not Coppola This is someone who was making their fifth appearance on the list And they are the second most appearing on the Cayet American director Scorsese Correct, what was the film

In 88 Yes One Oscar nomination Hold on One very noteworthy Oscar nomination All right, calm down Um 90 was good,

Fellas. 85 was after hours. 86 was the color of money. Oh, it's the Last Temptation of Christ. Last Temptation of Christ. Yeah. Films that Scorsese has shown up on the Kaye 4 are Raging Bull, the King of Comedy, After Hours, the Color of Money, the Last Temptation of Christ, Good fellas, The Casino, The Departed, and the Irishman.

He has never once topped the Cayet. All right. All right. Eastwood also topped the Cayenne in 1992 for Unforgiven on a list that only featured one other American film. It was which of these 1992 movies to receive two Oscar nominations. Batman Returns, Husband and Wives, or Malcolm X. Malcolm X. Incorrect.

Bad Band Returns? Incorrect. It was Husbands and wife. And the only other American movie on the list that you. All right. Along with Eastwood, the list of American directors on the Kaye list from 1993 includes which famous music video director? Is it Michael Bay? Is it David Fincher or is it John Landis making the Kaye in 1993? Not Fincher. Having directed famous music...

Not Fincher, he's not there yet, I don't think. Who's the other two? Michael Bay and John Landis. I don't even know what Michael Bay would be making in 93, so I'm just going to say John Landis. It is John Landis. Do you know the motion picture? In 93? Yes.

No. Innocent Blood. A movie that exists. only as a poster to me. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know Innocent Blood. John Landis, director of other movies and also the thriller music videos. All right, 1995.

Which American Horror or Horror Adjacent American Director did not appear on the 1995 list? Was it Tim Burton, John Carpenter, or Wes Craven? Meaning two of the three were on the size list. In 95. 95 might have Carpenter Craven 95 might have been

West Craven's new nightmare So I could see that maybe showing up Burton in 95 94 was Ed Wood I don't know if Burton had a 95 And then Who's the other? Burton Carpenter West Craven

I'm going to say Burton Incorrect Would you like the second guess? Sure Burton was on the list for Ed Wood Oh a year later. That's interesting. France, baby. Yeah. Okay. I'm just going to say Craven.

West Craven is correct. John Carpenter was on the list for in the mouth of madness. Sure, for sure. Good movie. All right. 1998. 1998's list included many ties, including a four-way tie in 10th place, which included what two Oscar-nominated movies. So in 10th place, there was a tie for four movies, two of which were American movies with Oscar nomination. In 98? Yes, 98. Remember, France! So you're hugging like 9798.

That had Oscar nominations in 9798 afterglow. Incorrect. God would admit that's not a bad guess, though, right? sure um you're not going to feel that way when i tell you the the two that were in tenth place with oscar nominations what dreams may come incorrect what are they just tell me titanic and jacky brown jesus christ also oscar nominated on the cayet list but higher up velvet gold you set me up to guess like weird ass shit and then it's titanic and jackie brown american movie sure but But come on. After goddamn space cowboys? Speaking of space cowboys. Oh, no, wait, not speaking of space cowboys yet.

Okay. So which of these three American movies topped the best of 1999 list from these American movies? Was it Eyes Wide Shut by Stanley Kubrick, Ghost Dog, the Way of the Samurai by Jim Jarmish, or The Straight Story by David Lynch. All three of these appeared on that top ten, but which was number one. A straight story. Incorrect. Ghost dog. Incorrect.

It was eyes wide shut. Now, speaking of Space Cowboys, the 2000 list features the directorial debut of which female director who has yet to reappear on the Kaye. Sophia Coppola. Sophia Coppola for the Virgin Suicide is correct. 2006 features the second appearance of what director on the Kaye for their fourth lowest film on Rotten Tomatoes, and can you name the two other films that director has made that made the Kaye? If it's Francis Ford Coppola for Jack, I'm just going to laugh and laugh and laugh.

2006. Oh, okay, 2006. Sorry, sorry, sorry. 06 for their second lowest Fourth lowest on RT But it's their second time Appearing on the Cayet's top tens Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

Is it a movie That we've covered? No But I would love to Could we cover it? Yes I think because of this director is it Mars attacks

Not always for this director But I think at this point This is probably the last point The last time we could cover this director Okay Their fourth lowest movie on Rotten Tomatoes Right, right, right What year was the first time that they were on?

2004 Okay Okay O-4. 0-4. This person tied for second place. For a movie that was like Oscar-nominated? Yes, it did have an Oscar nomination.

Okay. In acting? No. Is it... You wouldn't be psyched about us doing a Mel Gibson. Is it... Amnit Shyamalan? yes for the village or the village was that time for oh six was lady in the water oh six is lady in the water of course okay what's the third movie that um shaman has showed up for on the kaiye keep in mind lady in the water is the middle of the three is the middle of the three so the one would be after lady in the water would it be i mean it's too much to hope for old but um it would be

knock at the cabin? I don't know. Incorrect. Not a knock at the cabin. Okay. Is it old? No. Damn it. What comes after a lady in the water? It's not the happening. It can't be the happening. It's not the happening. It can't be the last airbender.

I don't know. Give it to me. Oh, no, it's split. It's split. It's split. Yeah, yeah. Shamelon's three Kaye movies are the village lady in the water and split. What a weird trio. Yeah. Okay, so 2009, can you put the four American films that made the 2009 list in order from highest to lowest ranked? The four movies are Grand Torino, the Hurt Locker, Inglorious Bastards, and Francis Ford Coppola's Tetro.

Sure. Inglorious Bastards highest Correct Then next highest is Grand Torino Correct Then third highest is What's the non-Tetro one? Hurt Locker

Hurt Locker Hurt, excuse me God, choking on my rage here Third one is the Hurt Locker Incorrect It's the opposite of the two InGlorious Bastards was third place Grand Torino was fourth,

Tetra was sixth, and Hurt Locker was seventh. All right. All right. Final year. Aside from the Irishman, what other 2019 best picture nominee and the Mule made the Kaye's top 10? Was it Ford versus Ferrari, Joker, Little Women, Marriage Story, or Once Upon a Time in Hollywood?

I will give you two guesses. Joker. It's Joker. Yeah, of course it is. So the Kaye, you know, as far as global sense. They're kind of trolley. They're kind of... They feel fully, at least, that you're including things like Joker in this list.

And, you know, but they are also very interested in global cinema and champion, like, their most recent winner was Trankay Laukin, this four-hour film that I'm very excited to see. It's currently on Criterion Channel, but they've, you know, championed apacheathong. We're Spockle movies, random French movies that never get U.S. release dates, you know, they tend to go their own way. I can't believe you said the Criterion Channel and not the Channel, as you often do when you text me, and you say, that's on the channel right now. Do you really want me to type out all of Criterion Channel? Just call it the Channel. No, I find it delightful that you call out the channel. I'm very into it. I'm very into it.

So, uh, talking about the box office disappointment, I guess, of Oh, yeah. That this is maybe not the movie you release at Thanksgiving. It was opened at the same time to Mrs. Doubtfire, which opened to more than double the opening take for a perfect world,

on less theaters. So Mrs. Doubtfire at the, That's the type of thing people want to go see at Thanksgiving. Well, certainly they don't want to see whatever a perfect world is offering at Thanksgiving. Obviously, the one to go to is Adam's Family Values, which is your second place movie that we need. That's the one you want to go to at Thanksgiving. Again, though, like 1990s top 10 lists are just incredible in terms of like something for everyone, right? Mrs. Doubtfire, Adams Family Values, A Perfect World, the Three Musketeers,

Carl's Way my life that Michael Keaton Nicole Kidman weepy We're back a dinosaur story of course Nightmare Before Christmas We're so back a dinosaur story

Which one is man's best friend That sounds like a dog movie It's got to be like But it's like a horror movie right Yes A genetically engineered dog Escapes from the science facility Where it was created

Not the science A family takes it in Unaware of its deadly instincts which soon emerge. The scientist who created tries to find it before it's too late. So this feels like a cross

between Megan and Short Circuit and also Chucky. And Shiloh. Sure. And then... The piano,

the remains of the day, Cool Runnings. We really used to be a country. It used to be a country. I mean, you could go see the piano and then cool runnings. Heat yourself up with the piano.

Cool yourself down with Cool Runnings. That's the way to do. Yeah, what would be your ideal double feature from that top 10? Oh, just the 10? Okay, so it ends with the piano. Yes. I mean, the piano and Adam's family values. Pretty easily.

People have overdone nightmare before Christmas. We need to let that well fill for a while, friends. What about a double feature, though, that is Mrs. Doubtfire and Carlito's way? where you just see two divas maximizing their joint sleigh, Mrs. Doubtfire and Carlito in Carlito's way. I'm into it. I'm into it. No, I would do Man's Best Friend, a genetically engineered dog, and... The Piano. The Piano. The Three Musketeers. Go see, you know, one of the greatest movies of an entire decade, and then go see...

And then go see the piano. All right. You, fuck you. Joe, would you like to play the IMDB game if I had not already tortured you enough with a game? Yes, let's do it. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game in which we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress and try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for. If any of those titles are television shows, voice only performances, or non-acting credits, we mentioned that. up front after two wrong guesses we get the remaining titles release years as a clue and if that is

not enough it just becomes a free for all of hints all right how are we doing this today are you giving are you guessing i'll guess first last time you were very very mean to me and i was very nice making up for uh lost time i was made i was making up for several weeks worth of being I maybe have to rescind my white flag that I waved because this might be a little difficult. This is someone that I thought we had done, but apparently we hadn't. This might have just come up in conversation. Oscar nominated this year The Great Pete Pothlessweight. Oh, okay.

Nominated for In the Name of the Father. Yes. What are Pete Postlethwaite's for? So in the name of the father, I'm going to guess, is one of them. Incorrect. He is the best thing about that movie. He's incredible in that movie. I can't believe that.

Okay. The Lost World Jurassic Park. Correct. Okay. The usual suspects. Correct. Kobayashi. Maker of fine mugs and ceramics. All right.

Pete Posslethwaite. Inception. Inception is correct. Okay. And for my... You don't even have years yet, and you only have one left to go. I think you're doing pretty well. So I'm going to say that I was being nice.

Okay. What's by number four? William Shakespeare's Romeo plus Juliet. Great call, but incorrect. Okay. Your year is 2010. Okay. 2010

His second to last screen credit before he passed away Yeah, same year as Inception Um Was it an Oscar movie? Uh, it was. It has one Oscar nomination, but even so it was very close to a Best Picture nomination. The town. The town.

The town shows up on the IMDB game a lot, actually. You know, his name is on the poster, though his face is not on the poster. We should maybe test out the town as everybody on the poster movie? Yeah. It's possible. It's possible. All right, Chris, for you, I followed down the rabbit hole of other Clint Eastwood movies of this era, including the previously mentioned absolute power in which a career thief played by Clint Eastwood movies of this era, including the previously mentioned absolute power in which a career thief played by Clint Eastwood movies. Eastwood witnesses a horrific crime involving the U.S. president in the White House,

a U.S. president played by Gene Hackman. But for you, I am going to ask you about one of the other stars of the movie. Two-time, I believe, Academy Award nominee Judy Davis. Miss Judy Davis. Is there television? There is not. Okay, so I Her as Judy Garland

They have to consider that TV They do Okay, so first of all, wow That that that performance is not on her known for That's maybe the most egregious thing That we've ever had I'm going to say naked lunch Not naked lunch

Okay Well husbands and wives Husbands and wives I'm still just so thrown by Judy Garland not being there What's her other Oscar nomination I feel like it was a Coens But what Coens is she in? She's in She in Barton Fink?

What's the Cohen movie that she's in? Miller's Crossing Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah, I'll say Miller's Crossing, even though she might not be in that. I think she is in that, but that's not on her IMD. Okay. Well, that's two wrong answers. Oh, yeah. Let me just double check and see.

I guess she's not in Miller's Crossing. You may be thinking of Marsha Gay-Harden. Yeah. Well, no, I knew Marsha Gay-Harden, but I thought that there was more than one woman in that movie. I kind of thought so, too, but I'm not seeing that on Judy Davis's... What year would that have been? No, she has a Coens. Yeah.

She does have a Coens. Okay, so you're missing years are 1994, 1998, and 2015. Wow, 2015. Yeah. 94-98 is 98 absolute power. It's not absolute power. It's not absolute power. That was 97, I believe.

It's 94 Barton Fink? It's not Barton Fink. Barton Fink is 92, but she is in Barton Fink. Is that the Coins that I was thinking of that she's in? Yes, yes, yes. So 94 is as, is after her Woody Allen Oscar nomination. She has to have another Oscar nomination.

What the hell is it? Why is this so hard? My hint for you is that her other Oscar nomination was before 1994, so it's not there. Okay. Was a passage to India. A passage. Who could forget a passage to India? Uh, one of the bad leans. Um, yes.

Okay. Hints for these ones. Okay. Um, one of them is a comedy that I love that is on television kind of a lot. Sneakers. What? Sneakers. She's not in sneakers. I didn't think so, but no. It's what I was. One of them is in black and white. And then one of them was from her. native Australia Oh, is the Native Australian one No, she was in that Nitrum

movie that Caleb Landry Jones won the Cannes Best Actor Prize for But that's not 2015, it's more recent than that. Is the 2015 the Australian film? Mm-hmm. Okay. Her name

is on the poster, but she is not. The only person on the poster is the lead actress. Is it like Strangerland, that Nicole Kidman movie? It's not, but... But it is a Nicole Kidman movie? It's not Nicole Kidman, but it's like someone of that stature. Oh, okay. It's not an Australian actress, actually. It's a British actress. Yes, but who has definitely... No. She's Australian. She's Australian. But you're on the right track for a second. Kate wins. Oh, it's the dressmaker.

It is the dressmaker. Very good. Fun movie. We should do the dressmaker. We should. Okay. Two remaining, 94, 98. 94 is the comedy that's on TV a lot. 98. 98 is the black and white movie. Black and white, 98. Is it like June? Berlin? No. It is directed by a oft-cancled director who... Woody Allen. Oh, it's celebrity. Yes. Yeah. I haven't seen celebrity. I saw it when it first came out and not since, and I don't remember much about it. I don't think people liked it.

No, they didn't. Okay, so 94 is the comedy that's often on TV. She's like a villain in it? No, she's like, I mean, who's the villain in this movie? Is she like a hardline boss? Not a boss, but she's sort of a editor. No.

She definitely like takes a hard line on a lot of things. She's on the poster alongside the star of this and also alongside the guy who plays her husband in this movie. It's set in like... It's like Brooksian, right? It's like a Brooksian comedy.

No? It's not like a co-in-cee comedy, though. What's that? It's not like a co-in-cee comedy. No, it's not quite... It's not as high-minded as that. No, it's like... Is it for children?

No. But I watched it as a teen, and I really liked it. Oh, it's the ref. It's the ref. One of my favorites. Duh. Why didn't I already guess the refraff? And she fricking rules in The Referex.

She gives the best performance in that movie. I love that movie so much. Great cast in The Refereff, including Christine Beranski and Glynis Johns and some other folks. It's great. It's good time. All right. That's our episode. If you want to know

This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at Thisheadoscarbuzz.com. You should also follow us on Twitter. It had underscore Oscar Buzz. On Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz and on Patreon at patreon.

com slash this had Oscar buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? I'm on Z socials at Joe Reed, reads spelled R-E-I-D, particularly letterboxed. I am also on vulture.com where I am doing Cinematrix puzzles every day. and Emmy Awards gold rush newsletters every week. You can sign up for both, actually, on vulture.com.

Cinematrix quite literally every day now. Every day. We're doing weekends now, baby. And you can find me on the less than perfect world of social media, on Twitter and letterbox to Kris F-File. That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic. Artwork, Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Media's

for their technical guidance from time to time. Taylor Cole for his theme music every time. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get those podcasts.

Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So put that pit away and give us a five-star so we can have a perfect ranking. that's all for this week we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz oh and uh coming in two weeks episode 300 come on gerard butler come on lean aheady we are not doing the motion picture 300

come on michael fastender don't ask bye Thank you.