This Had Oscar Buzz - 299 – The Matrix Resurrections

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

This week’s film has Joe and Chris on opposite sides of a divisive reception. The Matrix not only revolutionized genre filmmaking in 1999, but it resulted in a resounding Oscar success. Reception to its first two sequels in 2003 was decidedly unappreciative, but the franchise has received some critical reassessment in the two decades since. … Continue reading "299 – The Matrix Resurrections"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melon Hack, Millen Hack and French. Dick Pooh. to be going back to where it all started. Back to the Matrix. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that the French call the best film of the decade.

Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my evil, therapist mastermind Joe Reed.

Tell me what you think about your motherboard. What? Your motherboard. It's the oldest joke in the book, Chris. It's a computer joke about the word mother. It's a joke about how therapists ask you to tell them about their mother, and also the fact that a motherboard has to do the computer. A joke pioneered by no lesser talent than Michael Patrick King at Sex in the City over a decade ago.

My motherboard myself, exactly, exactly, exactly. What was the plot of that one? I feel like that's a... My mother board myself, carries computer dies, but this is also when Miranda's mother either dies or begins to die. Yes, that's right. Because I think that is a two to maybe three episode arc for Miranda. And then all of the New York Democrats band together

and ask Miranda's mother to not run for president. Basically, basically. It's timely, timely jokes. Listen, this episode is coming out a second. after we record it. So we can be as timely as we place. What better movie to talk about if you spent eight hours in a single day doom scrolling, then one of the main...

I swear to God, if we are not talking 24 hours, seven days a week about the new coconut tree nominee for the Democratic Party by the time this episode comes out, I'm going to be pissed. That's all I'm saying. This episode comes out in under a week. It's all I'm saying. I don't think... It's all I'm saying.

Well, then, yes, I mean, hey, listen, time flies when the world is burning down. But this, I think, is the closest we've ever recorded an episode to the airing. And it was because I, at three separate junctures, texted my good friend Chris Vile and was like, I feel like shit, can we not record tonight? And Chris, bless his heart, was willing to keep kicking the can down the road. So thank you for that. It's fine. It's fine. I was willing to kick the can down the road because, listen. We're going to take a little glimpse behind the curtain.

Before we get into the year that was 2021 and especially like craft categories of 2021, much to maybe a long-time listener's shock, I was not the one who pushed for this episode. Joe pushed for this episode. So either one of two things is happening. Yeah. I think either in the simplest terms, Joe is throwing me a bone because he threw out a movie. that I love, and I know he just, he less than loves, or Joe just wants to fight. I will also, I will answer this one for easily right now. Joe does not want to fight.

The third secret option, the secret, the secret third thing is Joe's eyes were too big for his plate and sort of expected to have something of a turnaround on a movie that he maybe didn't love the first time, and then was faced with the fact that he felt. pretty much the exact same way the second time as he did the first time. Great, then we can have a conversation. Just like last week when we did a perfect world. Yes. I said this.

I'm going to say it again. I think it is often more interesting if we don't entirely agree. Because listeners, you don't want to listen to us, just say that we love something both. You don't want us just being like, you know, two gay guys looking at each other and saying exactly. Like, you know, that's not an interesting taste to do. Sometimes when there's a strawberry social at hand, then yes, we do want to do that. But sometimes when there's a extremely thinly veiled series of inside jokes about Warner Brothers at hand, we maybe don't want to do that so much. So here we are.

I don't think it's even that veiled. I think it's pretty out in the open, which is why I think this is maybe one of the most audacious studio motion pictures. We're going to end up talking about how you think Speed Racer is an anti-capital. classic too, aren't we? We really... Yes, because what is Speed Racer? It is an anti-capitalist classic. It's a great movie.

Speed Racer, I understand why people... Speed Racer is just like a lot to, like, sit and look at. But I think, you know, the borderline ugliness of Speed Racer is, like,

part of the anti-capitalist challenge of that movie. But then, again, I also think, in its own way, it's glorious to look at. This is not a Speed Racer podcast. No, it's not. I should also say I never saw Speed Racer in the theater. So I really feel like ultimately, I can't really properly assess that movie until I end up seeing it on a big screen and some sort of rep screening at some point.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. And that's how I saw it. And I saw it on a 35 millimeter print in a rep screening, which is just silly. Like, you're not, I mean, like, you're looking at digital filmmaking. I mean, that's not... I'm not smart. I'm not going to pretend to be smart. You're looking at a lot of computer-generated images in that movie, but anyway.

Yeah, yeah. The Matrix. 4-D-X is what Speed Racer should be screened in. Like, that's... That seems obvious. Yeah, sure. Sure, sure, sure, sure. On Poppers.

Yeah. No, the Poppers come spraying out of the seat in front of you. Not only do you get a Popper's high, you get a Popper's burn. But, no, you should... should be highly caffeinated and sugared up watching SpeedRacer, and then immediately leave and go to a protest of the Viacom Corporation. What is the preferred sort of biochemical state for the Matrix Resurrections? Is it just sad boy poetry and...

I don't know. I don't know. I feel like the state of the Matrix Resurrections is like drug-free, right? Because this movie does maybe have an interesting point of view on therapy and therapy drugs, which I don't necessarily think it's... One might say dated. One might say old-fashioned or perhaps... No, I disagree with that. And everybody has a different experience and, like, you know, about.

Bad therapist can really fuck you up, but not all therapists are bad. I don't think this is an anti-therapy movie. No. I love this movie. We should say, as two admittedly, cisgender white gay men, this is a movie that does not care for us one bit. So, like, that is also a thing that we maybe need to recommend. This movie hates, hates cisgender white men. Oh, my goodness.

It's hero is a cisgendered white guy. What are you talking about? Gay men. Sorry, did I say gay? Cisgender white gay men. I don't know if I agree. I think it just has two gay villains. I'm not even saying it's wrong to.

I'm just saying it does. Okay. Maybe it just hates basic white gays. And by that, I mean specifically Neil Patrick Harris. But no, I don't think that at all. Like, if you're saying that like Jonathan Groff and Neil Patrick Harris being placed in the roles that they're being placed is like a hostile energy towards straight white I'm not saying it's hostile I'm just saying it's I almost had straight white gaze which is kind of what I mean

well it communicates a thing it communicates it to me it communicates a thing I don't think it communicates that thing I think that that is two genius bits of casting I think this is a movie where every single thing that happens in it communicates on at least two levels and one of those levels is always about the industry. And so I do feel like the casting of those two people in two roles that are not only villainous, but are also fraudulent,

that are also people who are not who they are representing themselves to be, and that who are ultimately working at cross purposes with the heroes of this movie, who are very much I mean, whatever, like, Neo and Trinity is a canonically straight romance, but like, it's incredibly queer-coded in a hundred percent ways, so. Well, okay, so first of all, I don't think I agree with you specifically on Groff, because I don't think he's like a big bad of this movie by any stretch of the imagination. Neil Patrick Harris is the big bad at this movie, but I also think, first of all, Jonathan, the idea of Jonathan Groff is this generation's huge. Hugo weaving is so galaxy-brained that...

Go into that with that with me, because I don't... On the surface, I don't know what you're talking about, but I want to hear more. The cold reserve and not steelyness of his, like, vocal expression, he's doing a Hugo weaving as Agent Smith performance in this movie without ever being like, oh, he's doing Hugo Weaving drag, for lack of a better term. And it's so seamless. He has to, I mean, Yahya Abdul Mateen also has to step into the shoes of Hugo Weaving as well as Lawrence Fischburn will get into that. But the ease with which he does the like Mr. Anderson thing is,

so, like, genius, I think. I think he's fantastic. On a level of performance and casting, I think Lana knows exactly what she's doing. I think, but I think Groff is giving easily, I think, the most impressive performance in this movie. Oh, I disagree. I think that there is one incredibly, we'll get into it,

we'll get into it. Okay. But, no, I think, I don't know. I can't even get you to agree with me when I compliment this movie on something. Sorry, sorry, I know, I know, I know. Neil Patrick Harris though Like Neil Patrick Harris

Has is like a perfect fit for a You didn't think Well first of all You know from the beginning That he's the villain Well of course And like I don't think He's Neil Patrick Harris

And the shrink Like Come on Well But Um I mean Just

Like he fits it so Well And a performer that I think I haven't seen him fit into a role very well in a very long time, and then he does this, and I'm like, well, he's perfect. He's perfect, you know, because, like, this is the role that he should be playing. I don't read anything sinister. The worst person in the world. The worst person in the entire known consciousness. A casually malevolent, chilly villain, and he's very good at it. And I don't think it's because, Because he's gay, sir. I just think that he is not a particularly connective performer.

I think it's an awfully big coincidence. I think not only because it's two cisgender white gay men, but it's also two people who come from, I mean, it's two. And also, like, they're, you know, they were on glee, you know what I mean? They were on, you know, they've been down, like, the same sort of, like, generalized. Hollywood path, right? They, they, they have made themselves a place within the establishment by being talented, but also conventionally handsome and willing to sort of walk the heteronormative path and, and that kind of a thing. And Jonathan Groff hasn't. No, Neil Patrick Harris

more so on the graph, although I'm trying to think of like what Groff, what would the lay person's best, like, the person who's like, never seen a Broadway show or even like been to New York and just sort of like watches mainstream TV and movies,

what would they know him from? Like, it's... They wouldn't. They would know him from Glee, maybe. They'd know him from Glee, right? Yeah. So... I mean, you'll Patrick Harris, they'd probably still think, well, I guess how I met her mother, which is

like just, I refuse. Heterosexual cosplay on his part. Like, he's, like, that's, he's, that performance has was always, I think, on one level or another, so over the top straight as to be campy. Sure. You know what I mean? And I think intentionally so. Anyway, I don't need to make this entire thing about how long whatchowski hates white, gay,

white cisgender gay men But And again, I'm not saying I'm not saying she's wrong to. You can't say that when Ben Wishaw and Cloud Atlas exists, my man. Hey, I don't know whose idea how much Tom Tickfer or Lily for that matter. I would like to think that Tom Tickfer had nothing to do with that movie. What is your problem with Tom Tickver?

This is like the second podcast where you have you have slighted Tom Tickfer. Who gives a fuck? Hate Lola Hate over here, my God. Okay, also, Lana is casting those white gays in these roles, too, when where is Hollywood doing that? Okay. I'm going to offer that as a major rebuttal to your claim that I really just don't jive with. Okay, listen. I love this movie, though.

I mean, I'm glad you brought up kind of the villains first, because they're the major new element to the movie for the most part. And this movie kind of just wants. Well, bugs is in the whole sort of. Well, yes. Jessica Henwick, who I have no idea what Jessica Henwick's sexual identity situation is. But you're into it, whatever it is. If she's queer or not. No, this rewatch made me realize

I kind of love Jessica Henwick, like... I love Jessica Henwick and Glass Onion. Like, that way... She has that one really, really great line reading. Yes, yes. There's not enough of her in that movie, though. No, it's true, but I like what there is of her in that movie. I liked her way more in the Royal Hotel than I like Julia Garner.

I got to see... Julia Garner, another performer that I'm like, I guess I get it. I really liked what was the one right before pandemic that she was in, the assistant. The assistant? Oh, yes, she's incredible. And I never watched Ozark, so I can't like poo-poo her in Ozark. I know, which makes it a problem because the thing that I mostly know her from then besides the assistant is the Anna Delvey performance. That is like objectively stupid.

Intentionally so, I would say. I never watched that. Did you not, even a little bit? Oh, man. Oh, yeah, it was stupid. It's a Netflix program. Okay, you aren't just snobbing out today, my God. All right, okay.

Because I'm going to be blissing out. I'm allowed to snob out because I'm going to, like, fully go into how much I love this movie. I hate that I've been drafted into the role of the cynic here, but like I. No, no, no, no, no, no. Watching it again, I really wanted to feel it. I really wanted to, because here's also, for like, some bona fides. I go back. I have loved as much Wachowski output as I have hated, right? Not hated. That's the wrong word. But, like, haven't connected to, right? I love Cloud Atlas. I think everybody is up a tree about Jupiter ascending. I love the first Matrix. I think the middle one has big problems. And I think the third one is reprehensibly bad. But I, from what, can you, can I live? Can I live?

I liked a lot. Everything I saw of Sense 8 I was into, for every over-emotional sort of like love can conquer all, sort of queer utopia of it, I loved it. I loved all of that. And I see a lot of that impulse in the Matrix Resurrections. I just, it doesn't make it for me. And the people who love this movie are so like you about it. in that like it's not combative it's just it's just sort of this like pure sunshine just

raiding out of people and have you ever seen people who are really happy on a day that you're not happy and you're just like go away I don't know that's sort of how I am with the that's how you are with me every day go away no get out of here go away no wait I'd say get out of here to rebut me saying you get out of here. No, you're wrong. No, I'm teasing you. I'm teasing you. I think the thing that, like, makes people be so sunshine and rainbows about this movie is not that, like, or at least for me, let me speak for myself. I'm not going to speak for anybody else.

I think that this movie comes from a really sad and dark place, and I think the movie takes us there and, you know, as like the where the inspiration comes from and how like the movie progresses it takes us out of that into a more kind of blissful place and I think the tone the place that this movie ends on is you know I think fairly audacious in terms of like this scale of movie making I also think you know I mean, we're going to, you can't talk about this movie without talking about like franchise movie making and, you know, where it's going, how IP is being used and specifically this property's relationship to the Wachowski's. And I mean, you want to say that this movie is a fuck you. And I think that there's maybe an element of it. one, yes. It's not at all subtle about it, yeah. But I also, I think it is simultaneously

a real like opportunity that is taken and ran with it and it feels like Lana Waschowski got away with something that absolutely no one else has been able to get away with. And like, that makes me

feel sunshine and rainbows on top of like the journey you go on emotionally in this movie. I don't, I don't disagree that those were, that that is all what's going on and that that was all the intention. And normally, I'm very much like, so long as I like the movie, that's all that matters. And yet, I feel like the idea that this was some fuck you to Warner Brothers is mostly like I'm taking this franchise that is mine. I'm taking this intellectual property that is my

intellectual property. And I am wrapping my arms around it and swan diving into the abyss with it and and nothing will ever become of it again. Because it really is, there's the COVID of it all. I don't imagine how this movie is a success anyway. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't I don't see even in a in a unencumbered movie marketplace.

I think this movie is a massive disappointment and commercial failure. I think it definitely makes a significant amount more money because we'll talk about the box office when this movie opened. The fact that this movie was able to make $40 million. If you don't look at it contextually, $40 million is an outright disaster for this movie. but contextually, $40 million is more than any other movie other than Dune and Spider-Man made at this time. Like, I think there's, what's the one other movie that made more than that? In 2001?

Let's see. Oh, no, it's two movies. It's Ghostbusters and House of Gucci. That's right. I forgot that House of Gucci was so successful. House of Gucci was like the Barcluster. Forerometer for like movies for adults that fall and nothing compared to it. House of Gucci made like $50 or $55 million.

Well, this was also Spider-Man No Way Home, right? Right. Oh, you mentioned that up front. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then how did No Time to Die do at the end of it here? I think No Time to Die was. either way earlier or way later than this, because it's not on... Well, it was, it was, it's typical November, like late November, right?

That's the... I thought no time... Well, you can never remember when No Time to Die came out, because No Time to Die moved probably more than any other fucking movie. Oh, it actually was early October. I'm pretty sure it was the next year. No, it was end of 2021. Hold, please. Was it not?

Pretty sure. Oh, no time to die, 2021, 160. It was released. Oh, in September. So by this time, it's already out of theaters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right, because No Time to Die was before Dune. Yes.

Yeah. Anyway, I don't want to, like, slam dunk on this movie for the box office of it all, because I think it's going, well, maybe I do. I don't think you're a boogeyman about this movie. I will say, because, like, you are, you actually seem to try to grapple with this movie, or you at least give it more interpretation than the average dissenter for this movie, which people will just be like, I didn't get it, so that makes it stupid, you know, or like, I didn't understand what was happening, so therefore it's dumb,

you know, like they are with the other series. That is the proper response to the Matrix Revolutions, not to the Matrix Resurrection. No, no, no, no. I don't think it's particularly hard to understand what's happening in the Matrix Resurrection. They kind of spell it out for you at every... Oh, yeah. Like, it's constantly being very descriptive of what's happening. There's almost, like, maybe one of the flaws of the movie is how much exposition continues

to happen until maybe, like, the final scene of the movie. Well, even, like, the architect, who is Neil Patrick Harris's character, who's supposed to be the analog to the, or the analyst, sorry, who's supposed to be the analog to the architect from the Matrix Reloaded, the guy in the white room who, you know... With all the TVs. With all the TVs. And that scene in The Matrix Reloaded was so impenetrable that it kind of killed that trilogy, you know, that sort of, that, I think that one scene kind of was it, that was

the jumping off point for a lot of people, let's say. Well, the, the first Matrix is like this, like, this perfect alchemy of, yeah. hard-line science fiction and mainstream movie-making. Yeah. And the sequels, they take it, they move the dial closer to harder-line science fiction, which is usually something that I'm like, I can respect, but it's not for me. And philosophical science fiction, you know what I mean? Like, it's, well, because at the end of the day, I think the Wachowski's, especially

Lana, are emotional storytellers. And Matrix Resurrections is to me fundamentally an emotional. story um because it's like you can say you could talk about all the truth of like what's happening in the matrix today but it's the truth of the story the like thrust of the story is what's going on emotionally yeah but we should maybe get into more yeah we should maybe like the plot yeah weighed into it a little bit more before we do that joe would you like to talk about our patreon yeah uh this had oscar buzz turbulent brilliance is the name of our patreon special five dollar a month

what do we call it a bonus this had Oscar buzz bonus club I don't know it's our cool kids club it's our

our tree house of horror it's our tree house of horror it's our Zion it's our pod full of goo that we can go it's our IO thank you

for $5 a month it's hosted by us but over there we also have a septogenarian jade of being Good Smith with us. With her, um,

coded but never quite made, uh, textual, um, lady lover, uh, Aunt Rachel from Family Matters, which is very important to this movie, I feel like, um, anyway, $5 a month. You're going to get two bonus episodes. Two more this had Oscar buzzes, 50% more this had Oscar buzz than you had before. You got in July, July. We have five episodes. Stop making me do math on my podcast, Chris. You brought math into this equation.

I already got to talk about algorithms and fucking modals in this episode. I'm not going to do percentages anymore. Anyway, two extra episodes a month. One of those episodes will be what we call an exception, which is a movie that had all the trappings of this had Oscar Buzz movie. But oops, it's squeaked out an Oscar nomination or two. So we can't do it on the main feed, but we will do it on the Patreon. movies have in the past included Madonna's WE, Aaron Sorkins, Molly's game, and Charlie Wilson's

War. Barney's version. Who can forget Barney's version? We talked about Bazelerman's Australia with our friend Katie Rich. Coming on July 5th, that's right, the day after. It'll already be out there. It'll already be out there. Right now. Coming two days ago, in the past, time is a flat circle. This is the sixth version of the Matrix. We have gotten very good at destroying Zion. Whatever. My best friend's wedding will be P.J. Hogan,

romantic comedy of our dreams with Julia Roberts chasing Dermit Mulroney across a field in Chicago. I don't know. Whatever the nice suburb of Chicago is. My best friend's wedding. The movie rules we have a great time talking about it. enjoy listening to us talk about it too. There's a whole bunch of movies we've been doing this for a year. So there's like a year's worth of exceptions just beckoning. Waiting for you. Waiting for you. Second episode we do every month is called an excursion where we will go off a format and talk about

the various sort of Oscar-related movie ephemera that we love. We have done episodes devoted to entertainment weekly fall movie previews. We have done the MTV Movie Awards and also the 1999 Independent Spirit Awards. We'll recap old award shows for you. Hollywood Reporter Roundtables. We have done Best of the Year movie awards. And coming this time in the actual future, July 19th, Saturday, July 19th, we will be doing an awards race check-in for the year 2024. You want to hear what we think about challengers and its chances to show up at the Oscars at the end of the year. Tune in, and you can only tune in by joining This Head Oscar Buzz, turbulent brilliance for $5 a month. You can go to patreon.com slash this head Oscar buzz and sign on up.

For the cost of a blue pill or a red pill. A cartoonishly large horse pill-looking thing that must be a bitch to swallow. For the price of a cortado at your favorite local coffee shop. Can I say this movie got me on to Cortado's? What's a Cortado again? The teeny tiny little coffees that they have in this movie. Don't ask me how it works. It's espresso.

It's small. I had to stop drinking coffee this week because my tummy wasn't feeling very well. So I am, uh, well, let's fix your tummy and order you a cortado, which if someone will, uh, add the little, their little $5 subscription, we can get you one. That's true. Maybe your $5 can go to getting me a cortado. Will you be the one? Will you be the one to keep me awake throughout the workday? Let's find out. All right. I love my cortato. They make me feel like my hand. This is my toxic masculinity. It makes me feel like my hands are so masculine because the coffee is so small. You are all sorts of fucked up, aren't you? All sorts of fucked up, aren't you? I just literally made that up. Cortados, delicious, drink them.

Also, Baja Blast, $5 a month. Sign up for the Patreon. The Matrix Resurrections. Matrix 4. Yeah, like Matrix, but the A is a full. Yes, yes, that's what it is. Resurrections. Directed by Lana Waschowski, written by Lana O'Shaelke.

David Mitchell and Alexander Hemman No Lily involved in this movie Lily teased out I'm good I got money and time and I don't want to waste

either one of them making another dumb Matrix movie so I'm not going to We'll talk about the inspiration that got Lana on board to make the movie Motion Picture stars Keanu Reeves

Carrie Ann Moss Yaya Abdul Mateen the 2nd Jessica Henwick Neil Patrick Harris Jonathan Groff Pionka Chopra Jonas and Jada Pinkett Smith in old age makeup.

The movie opened wide, and we'll talk about it on HBO Max, December 22nd, 2020. Great decisions. Great decisions made all around. Excellent decisions, especially when, you know, you look at all the business that Dune 2 did, and it's like, oh, yeah, it was so smart for them to, you know, put all that money aside to, you know, put it on our television. Yes. Joe. Uh-huh. I'm not going to ask you if you're ready to give a 60-second plot description of this movie.

I'm just going to fire it up for you and tell you that the time is now for your 60-second plot description. I will give you an are you ready courtesy ask. Sure. Yeah, why not? Your 60-second plot description of the Matrix Resurrection starts now. So apparently there's a whole new Matrix. The movie sort of treats this as a surprise when we find out, but it's no surprise. There's a new Matrix. And Neo is now back to being Thomas Anderson, who, instead of a cubicle jockey, is a very successful and famous video game designer who has designed what?

A trilogy of games called The Matrix, where everything that happened and the Matrix happened. And he works for who? Warner Brothers, who wants to ultimately force him and his business partner, played by Jonathan Groff, who is not at all suspicious. 30 seconds. Stop it to make another movie, and he's like, I don't want to. And then a bunch of hackers, led by bugs, sort of freeze him from the Matrix the same way as the first movie and said, you're in a Matrix. Remember, you designed all of this and come help us save Trinity, who is in the other goo pod across from you, because the machines have been using the two of you as like these two superconductor batteries this whole time. And so he goes and helps them free Trinity from the goo.

and then they go back into the matrix, and Neil Patrick Harris, his therapist, as turns out to be the analyst, who's the guy who made this whole new matrix. And he's like, listen, everything sucks. And that's the way I want it to be. And what are you going to do about it? Mwah ha, ha, ha, ha. And there's a big fight and everybody's got guns again because nobody ever learns. And Jonathan Groff is Agent Smith, but he's also like kind of good, but not really. And, Neo and Trinity win and then they go flying away painting the sky rainbows and I don't know feeding everybody LSD across the world or something to make everybody feel

cool and happy and that's the end of the movie I don't know 50 seconds over I think that's a great achievement I thought I was going to go over two minutes for sure did I miss anything major important

Priyanka Chop Trojanus I guess she's the new Oracle sort of and Niobe is back as an old lesbian and the machine, there are some good machines now and they're cute little R2D2 things that are adorable. So when Neo and Trinity died,

the machines ended up in basically a civil war together where a faction of the machines was like, no, we need to, the humans are right and good, we need to support the humans. And the other machines said, no. So, like, they're in battle. So, yes, there are good machines in Io trying to, you know, liberate the human race from the machines, et cetera. Iyo is basically new Zion.

I-O is New Zion. They're like, hmm, we need a new name for Zion. What if we just, like, lop off the consonants of Zion? And there we go. We're all set. Exactly. I know. Yeah, I think the first sort of third of this movie.

not to be uncharitable to Lana Wachowski, who I think is a rad person and a great filmmaker, I think the first third of this movie is annoyingly petulant. I think the middle third of this movie is sort of doing The Matrix again, and I think the final third of this movie is cloyingly. romantic in a way that, like, I'm glad works for other people, but Neo and Trinity have never been, like, my, like, ultimate, so I kind of don't care. And that's the horrible alchemy that leads up to me not liking this movie very much. I hear you on the cloyingness, because, like, there is an element to the just, like, absolutely rose-tinted romanticism of this movie

that normally I would be running for the hills from. And in this movie, it moves me so much. I don't know what it is. I think maybe because the effect of the movie's satire and then like hardline matrix movie action breaks down my defenses in a way. But I also think it is recontextualizing that, you know, you don't really think

of the Matrix as a love story and I don't know if Lana would either from where like her inspiration points came for this movie. Or at least that's not what I would think. But, you know, the trilogy is really when you look back on it, it is really structured kind of around their relationship. Like when Trinity is able to save Neo

basically at the end of the original movie, it's like their love is able to... It sounds so corny to even say it, but like it's what it is. Like their love is able to, you know, transcend this evil. It is like a love across time and space and dimensions. Which is the same kind of cornyness

that I totally respond to in Cloud Atlas, by the way. So it's not like I'm like... I think this is like all across the board something I can't dial into. I don't want to like, I don't want to like smack down every single time you say something nice about this movie being like, no. But I also feel, I just, there is, Neo and Trinity's great love story was never in the top 10 of reasons why I liked The Matrix and part of The Matrix reloaded. And so I think one of the things that the Matrix does pretty effectively, actually, is sort of talk about how these kind of great hero stories have these, you know, notions of great destined love. You are, you are destined to be with the one Trinity.

that is, and ultimately those become necessities to building a story. And ultimately, that's one of the things that the Matrix movies sort of pulls back the curtain on, is that like all of this adventure that you've been watching is the necessary machinations of a hero's tale to get us back to the place where we've started every single time, which is rebooting the Matrix and doing this whole sort of, you can call it a charade, you know what I mean, all over again, where it's just sort of, it's the pantomime of change. It's the pantomime of trying to escape whatever, you know, sort of, I don't want to say slavery, but like, whatever, it's slavery that these people, you know, that the human race. Control, they're under a deal. Thank you. Controls the word I'm looking for. And then you, you know, you go through this pantomime of it, and then you get to the end and you start all over again. And in some ways, maybe there's a romantic notion to that, this idea that, like,

you know, we keep trying and we keep and we start it all up again and whatever. I don't mind that, but one of the things that it effectively did was it sort of D, it sort of broke me of whatever need I had to see Trinity and Neo end up together. Do you know what I mean? So, I mean, I definitely don't think of the initial trilogy and immediate, you know, is the top of 10 things that I say is the love story either. But I do think this movie makes a case for that love story always being in the fabric of those stories. But I do also think, like, I can still respect it in this movie that it goes so hard for the romance of it because it just like, kind of, of adds to this thing of each Matrix movie is its own uniquely weird thing.

Yeah. You know, it helps set it apart from this franchise and one of the things that I love is how uniquely weird each individual movie is from each other. I kind of feel like when I first saw the movie, the idea that the Matrix is more of like a purgatory, where these two great loves have to, you know, cross in order to be together again. It's like the whole idea is like what is being, in the literal story, you know, their love is fuelling, their love is exploited by the machines. Right. From this power, this energy they create by being close to each other but not together.

But then, you know, what ultimately. saves the day is their reuniting and their love for one another it's to me it's the story of two lovers finding each other in the afterlife sure and I find that

very moving and you know unexpected and it turns out that Lana was inspired by not only her reticence to do this movie initially after you know Warner Brothers had asked

multiple times, or approached her and her sister multiple times, but also from the death of both of their parents in short order. And also the death of a close friend of Lana's as well, I believe. Oh, interesting. I just remember both parents. And that, you know, this movie comes from a place that's interested in, you know, reconciling grief and, you know, moving forward. And I'm sure that, you know, I don't think Lana ever really spoke to this, but there has to be a certain level of, you know, in the 25 years since the original Matrix movie and since both sisters have come out as trans, you know, a lot of people have been very vocal about interpreting the Matrix as exactly a trans story. So I think there's something interesting about being at this stage in her life, revisiting that material and maybe being able to be more overt about.

those type of things, or maybe they're more intrinsic to the material, you know, which is also very interesting. Certainly the most outwardly trans theme of this movie is this idea of rejecting the binary, which is a thing that

like Bugs says outright. I think it's Bugs who verbalizes this, about how this idea that the old way was man versus machines and now in the kind of post, you know, post trilogy, for lack of a better term, world, it's that binary doesn't exist. There are machines working with humans. They don't ever get to the inverse of that in that, like, I don't know if we ever see any notions of, like, humans willingly working

with machines, although one imagines that maybe that also, I guess Joe Pantiliano is the, from the first one they would have been you know maybe you bring them back and you can sort of um you know explain that a little bit more i think there's also the idea of breaking the social norm beyond just the simple binary you know the the fake version of tiffany who like the matrix tells trinity that she is now when she's in the matrix she's the mother to a nuclear family you know like she's got two kids and a husband and that's her role and other Other than that, she's got her coffee and nothing else. Listen, she has her iron working garage.

Like, that's also, like, I do think it's funny. It's pretty hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do think it's funny that they, like, they gave Tiffany this very heteronormative life, which is, you know, hell, essentially, right? That's the worst thing that could happen to somebody is to end up with a heteronormative 2.5 kids and a husband named Chad life. This movie is so fucking terminally online.

That's, that's another irks, thing for me as this whole... I'm not so sure that it's turning on a lot. Tiffany and Chad, you know, all of the normies named Tiffany and Chad. Anyway, but I think it's so funny that they give her this sort of very heteronormative family and then just like have her spending all her free time working in, you know, in an Iron Works garage. I do think that the Tiffany and Chad thing is done with way more of a wink than

an aren't I so smart, like, point of view. I think it's... I think it's done with a wink with the intention of humor and maybe it's just too on the knows to be really that funny. It's a wink, but who is it a wink towards? It's a wink towards people who are incredibly online. No, it's a wink towards the culture of that. Like, it's a wink towards people who are, see, this is the thing. I think Lana knows that we get it in the audience and maybe Lana still lays it on thick, but like it's winking to a knowing audience, you know, but not an on, specifically online audience. Okay. Let's talk about the first act of this movie, which is really irksome to you. And I find really fun and funny and pretty bold. Though I would understand being like, it's too much.

I can sign on people finding it funny. I cannot sign on to it feeling bold. To me, it feels very childish and obvious. Sorry, I want to be nicer than that. But it's not that obvious when, like, everybody is still showing. showing up and giving half a million, half a billion dollars in America to every fucking Marvel movie, you know, like, I don't think it's that obvious to people. It's obvious, maybe it's obvious to people like us who, like, marinate in this soup all day,

every day, but to the average movie goer, I don't think it is. No, because I think it boils it down to this very simple Warner Brothers wants to take my franchise away. I think you could have gone into this movie knowing nothing about the backstory of this movie and come out and being like, whoa, Warner Brothers wanted to take the franchise away from the Wachowski's. I see. Like, I think it, I think it becomes. But they never really wanted to go back. It was Warner Brothers that was chasing them. Meanwhile, in the time between. They wanted the franchise to never be, you know, revived. And Warner Brothers was like, well, if you're not going to do it, ultimately we're going to do it. And that. was unacceptable to them for obvious and understandable reasons. And so rather than... Because ultimately, these are CEOs who don't give a shit about this material.

They give a shit about IP that's going to make them quick money. You know, it's not going to be made with care because those people don't give a shit. That's the thing that's changed in between revolutions and resurrections. It's not make another one because we want you to make it. It's make another one because we're going to make money. off of this thing. There's money to be made. We can't believe we haven't been making money off of this property.

And that's what this whole sequence is. It's like market testing. It's this message board speak of like what those movies were. Nothing to do with the like thematic intent of it. It's all this like. Which is all well and good. But this like not to bring up therapy again. But like my answer to that is quite literally go to therapy.

Like, I don't care. I don't care about your problems with Warner Brothers. I don't ultimately, not in the movie. I don't want to watch a movie about it. I don't. My assumption would be, actually, that the Waschowski's had a good relationship with Warner brothers, you know, because all of their movies were made with Warner Brothers. Sure.

Well, I mean, Cloud Atlas was independent and then Warner Brothers distributed it, but... But this is clearly an acting out in some former fashion. I don't think it's necessarily as personally motivated, as so much as it is a satire of the industry as a whole and of the machine as a whole that's happened. Because, like, it's not just Warner Brothers. It's Disney. It's everyone else, except for, like, maybe Universal. No, I mean, everybody's got their franchise, right? Universal's got the fast and furious movies and whatnot. So. Being a creative person, what it has, like, the dissociative feelings that Neo has in this, like, that's where it becomes personal. But, like, the satire of it, I think it's more about the industry as a whole than Warner Brothers specifically. I think where the boldness is is that they name Warner Brothers.

You don't have to name Warner Brothers to say this thing that's happening. in this type of storytelling and depicted in this. Right, you could just make up a thing. I think the, like, saying Warner Brothers is less of a shots fired than it is just like, well, I'm going to still do this with a little bit of a wink, and I'm going to be getting away with something. I think perhaps if I didn't, maybe this is sort of what you're saying then and that I'm, you know, I'm too steeped in it. But, like, I've read so many opeds and essays and blog posts and letterbox reviews and tweets and tweet threads about the state of studio filmmaking and what's wrong with it and why IP is choking it off and why the Marvel movies will be the death of us all. And, you know, if I hadn't read eight billion of those before I saw this movie, maybe I wouldn't say.

see this and just sort of like roll my eyes and check my watch and be like, all right, when are we going to get to the part that's not me reading yet another Indy Wire essay about why, you know, the current state of movies is trash, you know what I mean? I think it's, it's, you know, I think it's, I think it's maybe intended to be more, I keep saying winking, but I think it's more winking than that. But I also think it's more, it's a broader thing than just, like, the type of essay speak that you're talking about, you know, like. Yeah. I at least, once we get to the part where I can't remember what leads up to it.

What leads up to the big shootout in the offices where Groff finally comes out as Agent Smith? The whole white rabbit sequence and... Yeah, right. They go into the modal for, if I hear the word modal. one more go. Don't know what a modal is. Don't know. Don't care.

Well, okay. So it's also the thing of the studio cares that it is IP, but they don't care what the thing is. They don't care about the substance of it. They don't care about the point of view. They just want it to be an IP and then fuck anything else. They're soulless. So much so that like Lana can get away with this. Like almost like.

middle finger of... Harlequin romance of a science fiction movie. Sure. And I guess, but ultimately, are they happy with it? Are they happy with this movie that made not a lot of money and ultimately did not sort of

reignite the public into Matrix Mania? Who's happy? Who's happy about this? I guess Lana is happy about having sort of gotten one over on WB, but like... Or process the feelings that the movie was processing, you know, through that. It threw a way that, you know, maybe was unexpected because previously she'd been so adamant about not doing another Matrix movie. So, you know, creatively, that has to be rewarding.

Yeah. So once we get sort of past that part, once the sort of WB office, are blown up, and we get into the sort of, well, we're just going to do a Matrix adventure. I'm fine with that. You know what I mean? Like, that to me is a perfectly acceptable sort of adventure movie. I could, the problem with the problem, I don't know if it's a problem with the movie. But the thing with these movies, once you get into the second one, is everything represents.

something, right? Every, you know, every program is anthropomorphized. Every aspect of a sort of synthetic reality exists in the form of a person, you know, a sort of like, you know. And so you end up going through these movies and being like, all right, what is this person saying? What is this monologue about choice about, really? What is this, you know, yet another sort of set of cryptic truisms supposed to communicate about living life in the time of, you know, very, very computerized sort of time of life? And so when we encounter the Merovingian once again, Hell yeah.

Hell yeah. So again, that is your response. And my response is, wait, what's the Meravengian supposed to be again? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Right. Because like, but that's, I think, the difference between how you're enjoying this movie and how I'm not enjoying this movie is I'm trying to, I'm not trying to figure the movie out.

I am trying to follow this movie along its own wavelength. This isn't a movie that wants to be so mysterious. This movie keeps trying to explain itself to you. And all I'm trying to do is like unravel that thread that they're feeding to me. And meanwhile, you are just sort of like in the back of the stadium, like doing the wave all by yourself, being like, whew! Sure I am. Literally by myself, because I did see this in a theater. Like, I saw it in an IMAX by myself.

Yeah. Marivengian, who is, by the way, just throwing out the most ridiculous dialogue. Did you write any of this down? I should have written some of this down. It is absolutely. His presence is absolute fan service. For a movie that I don't think really indulges in fan service that much, his presence is. Did you feel serviced?

I felt very serviced by his presence. Okay, I did write something down. Didn't I? What did I write down? Maybe I didn't. You know what? I might have put it on my notes app. Hold on.

This movie does have an odd relationship to lore in a way that, like, to really just understand the essentials of this movie, I could probably give you a three-sentence synopsis of the trilogy. Or, like, if you've seen The Matrix and you didn't see the two sequels, I could give you, like, a three-sentence synopsis of everything you need to know to go into this. It's like Trinity and Neo ultimately die, blah, and none of that would be the Meravengian. But also, like, it is consistent to, like, the video games, and that's why Lawrence Fishburne isn't here because Morpheus dies in the video game. Wait, the actual Matrix video games? Talk to me about this, because this is the thing I have no idea of it.

own standard in terms of keeping a consistent storyline. It also doesn't, like, we would be like, yeah, but it's a video game. Who cares? Like, just bring back Lawrence Fishburn. But the movie has a certain level of integrity in that way. That also, it's like, you don't maybe need it, but I guess I respect it for having it. Well, there was the video game, Enter the Matrix. Right.

So I think there's that, and I think there was another video game. So that's canon to this movie. I guess. I guess. I didn't play the video games. I'm bad of video games. But like Morpheus dies. That's a bummer from Lawrence Fishburn, certainly.

That, you know. Well, and they asked him because when the filming was happening, because also this was a movie that started filming right before the COVID shutdowns and then had to start back up again. Which I believe is why Hugo Weaving isn't in it, because otherwise Hugo Weaving was just, going to play Thomas Anderson's business partner, the Jonathan Groff role. Every bit of the Jonathan Groff role was going to be Hugo Weaving. I didn't know Hugo Weaving was actually attached. And then ultimately... I'll take it because like I said, I think... Yeah, Groff's great. You know, having Groff take Hugo Weaving's spot and essentially do a Hugo Weaving is just galaxy brain, genius. So yeah, like I think the

relationship to lore and like it's also building its own lore of like there's a whole war that has happened between these two movies and also naobi has you know reestablished zion as io they grow plants and stuff they grow strawberries little synthetic strawberries that look very tasty and like see that's the thing about the way that this movie ends is like at the same time that it's like, well, what the hell is anybody else going to do with these movies? I think Lana is providing this franchise that they've effectively said, this isn't going to be yours anymore after this, giving them so much that they could make movies out of.

Do you think, though, that the end of this movie just sort of, like, leads into Sense 8 that just sort of, that the next Matrix movie is just the finale orgy of Sense 8 for like an hour and a half? The thing is, like, you can't really say that I'm a true Wachowski head because I haven't watched Sensate. I haven't watched all of Sensate, but I've watched some of it, and I enjoy it. There's a lot of actors from Sensate in this movie, I will say that, starting with, wait, you talk for a second, I'm going to bring this up.

About how there should be an orgy in this movie? No, about how I'm going to look up and find out how many people from Sensator in this. A lot of the smaller roles, like smaller than bugs, are Sensate actors. I thought. Well, one of Bugs' cohorts is played by Brian J. Smith, who plays Berg. He was in Sense 8. Frima Agamon, who was, oh, what was her name on Sensei? But she's one of the people in the sort of brainstorming session at the Warner Brothers offices.

She played. Also, Christina Ricci as like the Warner Brothers person. Speed racer's own, Christina Ricci, yes. What the fuck was her name? I liked her on Sense 8. I can't remember. Amanita was her name, not Sensate. Everybody on Sense 8 is hot.

Everybody on Sense 8 is young and... Everybody in this movie is hot. Polyamorous and non-binary and bisexual and it's wonderful. What a good show. The person who I think kind of gets screwed in this movie a little bit is Yahya Abdul-Matic. Yeah, they ultimately, they have like one cool thing that they do with him, which is he's the one who goes to help free Trinity from the goo pod because he's made of like little nanobots. And he's like, he ultimately looks like one of those like nail things that you press your face into. 100%.

Like that's the aesthetic there. Like you buy it at a science museum. and, like, you can put your handprint in. I had one of those. Of course, we always did, like, a middle finger in it. Of course, you have to. Of course, because we were children. Yes.

But, yes, that's what he looks like. So, like, he doesn't get to, but he doesn't get to do much, which, you know, I guess just the simple idea is Morpheus and Agent Smith as a combined inspiration, which helps this idea of who wants to be. was your enemy may not be your enemy anymore. I'll say this. As a single person, watching this

quadrilogy, no longer a trilogy, now a quadrology, move from sort of canonically it's Neo and Morpheus in Trinity. That's the gang, right? They're the ones on the poster. They're the ones who are going to take down the machine.

They're the ones we're going to win. And then over the course of four movies, have it turn out to be it's Neo and Trinity. Those are the ones that matter. Those are the ones who have the ending. Where's Morpheus? Kind of don't care. The real Morpheus died, and we have a new one, but he's not entirely Morpheus. He's also Agent Smith.

So as the single person who often sort of like is the third wheeling it with my couple friends, I feel for Yaya Abdul Matine's version of Morpheus slash. Smith in this movie, where it's like, oh, dude, I'm sorry. Now everybody thinks that the couple is the best. And you're just there made of little... Morpheus Smith could go and find love. Listen, this is a movie that believes in love. Another collection of nano maybe.

Maybe bugs. Maybe multiple people in I-O. If this movie has any ethos whatsoever, it really is that, like, anybody can get with anybody because like truly everybody's fucking everybody fucking although it never shows anybody fucking but it but it gives you the sense that like there are no there are no binaries there are no genders there are no you know there is no concrete sexuality so yeah yeah nanobot morphius could end up with a partner that'd be nice i said at the beginning of the episode that i think there's an incredible performance in this movie oh yeah you said better than

than Jay Graff, who you got? Oh, Keanu Reeves is tremendous in this movie. I think he's very good. He's tremendous. Like, the emotional arc, the, like, having to be essentially, I mean, just like Neo,

it's like kind of a reverse image of Neo in the first movie, where Neo's having his world, like, his mind blown and, like, his, you know, perceptions expanded. This one, You know, he's coming from a more internal, you know, his perception is already fucked when we meet him.

And then he finds clarity throughout the movie. And, like, just his journey out of depression. Is it not, though, the same clarity that he had in the original trilogy? Isn't it ultimately just like it's all about Trinity? No, no, I don't think it's, well, I mean, It's about them and their love, like, you know, anthropomorphizing their love. Every time you say their love, I want to grab two little action figures and sort of moosh their faces together and like kissy-kissy. You can tell that the words coming out of my mouth are uncomfortable because I'm like, ah, oo-woo feelings.

It's a very u-woo. It's a very u-woo movie. It's an incredibly woo movie. and like, you know what? Sometimes Uwu gets me. It gets me in this movie. It sometimes gets me to, probably more often than it gets you, but not in this movie for whatever. But I also think just like as a depiction of depression and dissociative feelings, I think

like Keanu Reeves didn't get enough credit for this performance. I mean, Keanu Reeves, I think in general, doesn't get enough credit for most of his performance. People still think he's a bad actor and it's fucking stupid. I feel like we've maybe moved a little. little bit beyond that. I don't know if he's like, he used to be, like, in the 90s, he used to be, like, the avatar of bad acting. And it was never true. It was he has a very particular sort of, but like you look at something like speed, right? Which is like a perfect movie. And he's great in that movie. He's exactly what he needs to be. He's, you know, heroic and sexy and sometimes funny and, and I don't know, I think he's great in that movie. You know who I think. is having fun when they absolutely have, like, I would understand if they had zero fun making this movie. Who's going to say Carrie Ann?

Jada. Oh, I think Jada is having fun. Jada is having so much fun, but, like, is, you know, doused in old age makeup. It's, like, dripping off of her face. They really sort of like... She is a melting candle in this movie, but, like, no one is selling, like, the hardcore for exposition science fiction of this movie like Jada. Jada is having a great time.

She and Aunt Rachel from Family Matters are the Miracle Max and Valerie of this movie where all of a sudden they show up and it's Billy Crystal and Carol Kane in very, very old age makeup. Except they're not like squabbling. That's absolutely true. They're not squabbling, but it still is, you know,

it's, and then they get whatever they need to get to finish the movie. I'm happy to see Niobe Because Niobe, you watch two and three And you're like, there's not a... Well, there's more Niobe in three. Niobe, like, is the lead of the video game. I know that much about the video game.

That it's like, okay, I hope Jada got paid really well for that. And wasn't there? Was it a short film? Or was it a video game called Final Flight of the Osiris? I don't know. Maybe that's a short in the... Animatrix? Did you ever watch the Animatrix? I definitely watched the Animatrix. I definitely remember nothing about it. Hold on.

The Animatrix is safely the weakest entry into the Matrix universe, in my opinion. At one point, in one of the movies, Niobe, like, mentions the Osiris as like, it's very sort of like Rogue One coded, where it's like that was, except I think it was, I guess it was part of the Animatrix Final Flight of the Osiris. Yes. Sure. You know who was a voice in that is Pamela Adlon. Pamela Adlon's a very prolific voice actor, so I guess that's not surprising, but any hudel. So this movie was on the Oscar shortlist for sound and visual effects.

I think it should have been, especially when you're talking out, what made it through? Should have been shortlisted for makeup as well. What made it for makeup? The makeup five is eyes have taken. Tammy Faye, coming to America, Cruella, Dune, and House of Gucci. I think at the very least, it should beat out coming to America. And Cruella.

Curella had some good makeup. Curella, I will say, was more costume than makeup, so maybe, yeah. 100%. I didn't hate Curella like everybody hated Curella. Hated Curella. Curious. Because it sucked. Well, okay.

Well, sold me on that one. I think it's interesting to talk about the matrix, the original matrix, in the sort of through the lens of this idea that the Oscars is often sort of tiered in terms of you got your top line movies and you're below the line movies, right? Your movies that are in the mix for Best Picture, the acting races, your screenplay is whatsoever. And then the movies that have a little bit of a glass ceiling on them, even though they'll get maybe like three or four nominations and maybe we'll like sweep sound and visual effects or whatever. And it's like your Jurassic Parks in 93 Speed was actually one of those movies in 94,

which won. three, maybe four movies. And, like, every once in a while, the tell for this is it'll get that, like, one editing nomination that's like, oh, they really like you. Oh, they think you're a really well-done action movie. Because- You know, a movie that, like, I don't think we ever really recognize as one of these type of movies that, like, just is sitting on four Oscar nominations is diehard. Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Um, but I actually, it might be interesting to go look through the editing nominations from like the, from 2000 on because I bet you you'd find like, for a while there, there you'd get some crossover, right? Because for a while there, the Lord of the Rings movies were those movies. And Gladiator was one of those movies. And Gladiator was one of those movies. Um, but you look into some later years and you'll, you'll get stuff like Napoleon. The Born Ultimatum, right? Yeah. Where the Born Ultimatum, you know,

wins best editing and gets a bunch of sort of technical awards or stuff like, that's where like the Dark Knight actually ended up getting its nominations. And then in the era of the 10, you know, the more than five Best Picture nominees, then all of a sudden these movies are a little bit harder to come by. but they're often like Skyfall or things that are already best picture players. Right. Star Wars, the Force Awakens, because it was such a phenomenon in 2015, gets the editing nomination. Ford versus Ferrari wins. I still think it's so wild.

The Ford versus Ferrari wins the best editing, but that is a best picture nominee. So same with Dune, right? Same with, I imagine, Dune this year. year, not to get ahead of our Patreon episode. This is the thing about Dune and Oscar, and, like, specifically the movie we're talking about is, like, you know, the Matrix, which was, like, the big science fiction spectacular, you know, this version doesn't show up anywhere in the Oscars, and probably the categories it would have shown up, and Dune was always going to win those.

I mean, you know, even in a year that's not post-cold. of it. Right. Right. The original Matrix was nominated for four awards and won all four, right? It wins sound, sound editing, visual effects, and was it editing? Was it film editing? Yes, it was.

You're right. So, and you look at that, and it's like, okay, but there's so many other, like, could have very easily been a costume nominee. Could have very, like, those costumes were so. influential. You know what I mean? They kind of, you know, the cinematography was so influential. Art direction. See, the thing about art direction for the Matrix is like that does feel pre-art direction as a branch embracing CGI environments. Yeah. Because like the Matrix certainly deserves the production, design, art direction, whatever it was called at that time, nomination. Yeah. Specifically for

those computer-generated at Byron. Interestingly, the winner that year in 99 was Sleepy Hollow, which certainly had its fair share of computerized imagery. But like, Anna and the King was a nominee for art direction that year, the Cider House rules. And I think you

could very easily slot the Matrix. Like, by all rights, the Matrix, even if you don't get into acting nominees, even if you don't get into like picture and director nominations for the Matrix, even if you think it's not quite at that level, this thing probably belonged in

four to five more craft categories than it ended up being in. You know, this could have been an eight-time nominee and it doesn't even crack the acting categories. So I would make the argument for the same tally for this movie, specifically when you're talking about 2021, because go back and look at these craft nominations for the 2021 Oscars, and it's dire.

Like, thank God, Dunewood. There's the thing. Dunn's sort of like, you know, well, and that the problem was, and you, the problem was there even more heavily in 2020 is there just weren't as many big action blockbuster type of movies because of the pandemic. And so you're still getting stuff like this was the year where, um, cinematography and production design has, the same five nominees for like the first time ever right it was a very very lock step set of craft nominees it was dune nightmare alley power of the dog west side story and then either tragedy of macbeth which got production design and and cinematography and a bunch of other stuff or um like no time to die ended up with a good handful of nominations or that like real big surprise editing nomination for Tick, Tick, Boom, which I loved.

But you get things like Free Guy nominated for visual effect when the Matrix Resurrections isn't. And that's just like, and I think the thing that might hurt Matrix Resurrections is the whole bullet time

concept. That gets called out by the Neil Patrick Harris character. Right, but as a concept, which was so revolutionary for the first movie, and obviously got them their Oscar win, you know, it became, it seems old hat by now, you know, 25 years later, or 20 years later at the time of the movie came out. And, you know, it's easy to write this movie off like, oh, well, they're just going to do that again. When I really think

that the visuals in this movie are much more freer and wider ranging. Do you think they live up to the visuals of the original trilogy? Because a lot of people, even who liked the resurrections didn't quite think they measured up. I don't think it's trying to. I mean, I think it's trying to do a lot of different things, but I don't think it's necessarily aiming to be the high bar of completely changing how visual effects are done, you know? One of the other things.

The original matrix, like, that's not a bar you can meet. No, it's not. But I also feel like if you are going to, this is my problem. actually with a lot of the movie is if you are going to make the movie in part, I know that, like, Lana had very personal reasons for making the movie, but a lot of, some of the reasons certainly were, at least the early impetus, was to keep Warner Brothers from making whatever Zach Penn written, you know, version of this movie. Those were apparently developed separately, so like that Zach Penn whatever could still

become a movie. Right. But part of, I think, but I think part of the reason that Lana was like, no, I'll do it, was to sort of like had some of that stuff off at the pass. And I think if that's fine, but if you are then going to not make the effort to sort of dazzle in that same way visually, I'm sort of, I feel like I'm within my rights to, feel disappointed by it. I understand a viewer maybe taking that perspective and maybe I'm being a little too cynical here but I think the impetus to make this movie comes from

a creative inspiration, not from trying to entirely protect the material because if there was that impulse there, a movie would have happened sooner, you know, like it's almost 20 years between

movies and the whole time they'd been asking both of the sisters to do another. Well, I think there was, there was, you know, a lot of negotiation and sort of putting them off. And I think ultimately they had reached the point where like they were going to go with something else. I think that's, I admittedly was not reading into all this stuff as intently at the time as other people were. But one of the other things I wanted to mention about the visual effects category specifically is this idea that oftentimes a movie's overall air of success

will trump any kind of individual achievements, which is to say that, like, the Matrix Resurrections had the idea, had the sort of had the veneer of failure to it, fairly or unfairly, right or wrong, while something like Free Guy, even though it was sort of critically derided was seen as

sort of a positive Ryan Reynolds blockbuster, right? That Spider- Guy made money. Spider-Man No Way Home was absolutely seen as like an unequivocal Marvel success. Shang-Chi in the Legend of the Ten Rings while not like the best

received Marvel movie, even though I think it's actually quite good, was seen as a rebound from Eternals. You know what I mean? So like there's what do you not see here? Is Eternals, even though Eternals had some, like, wild and insane, you know, visual effects going on in that movie. But Eternals was never really part of the conversation. When did Eternals come out? Because I think. But wasn't Chi like... It was, I think the one... I think it was before Eternals. Hold on. Hold on. But either way, it's still the savior, uh... It actually might have been, you actually... Blocking the stain of Eternals. I think you're right. Because I think you're right. Because I I think Eternals comes out in... I saw Eaternals in L.A., and I think I was in L.A. in November of that year, and Shang-Chi was a late spring, early summer movie.

So I think you're right... I thought it was like Labor Day. Well, I don't know when the fuck things happen. Here's what I'm going to say. 201 is a damn blur. You're right. And it's a... It is Labor Day weekend.

Part of the blur of 2021 was like nothing was hitting. Okay, so there's four movies. There's four M.C. you movies in 2021. This is part of the reason why things have gotten to the point where there are now. But it was, and sort of follow the roller coaster here, it was like Black Widow, Shang Chi, Eternals, and then Spider-Man No Way Home. You know what I mean? So it was like it was, it was low, if you were not privy to my hand gesticulations there. It was, you under, I think you probably understand which ones were low and which ones were high. But anyway,

The two that were nominated for visual effects were the two that were best received of those four, right? And so I think it ultimately, those are defensible nominees, but it's not like the people who were making those decisions ever went into the nuts and bolts of the actual visual effects and were like measuring craft by craft. What they were measuring was successful blockbusters versus not successful. blockbusters. So, and I think you find that happening every year. You'll find it like, why didn't the Matrix sequels? Did the Matrix sequels get any nominations? I thought Resorrect. I thought I'm reloaded, did. Hold on. 2003. So it's two of them. I don't know if I'm, let's see. But they also came out in the same year. Right. That's the thing. So no visual effects nomination. No sound. No. Yeah. They didn't get anything.

So, again, because, you know, the original Matrix got four nominations and won four awards. The next two, because they were seen as such a disappointment, got nada. And you can't tell me that that freeway chase in Reloaded was not worthy of a visual effects nomination. Let's see who were hurt. Well, but because Revolutions comes afterwards, and Revolutions is the one that people really, really hate. Like, it overshadows that. That's what I mean, though. I like revolutions, and, like, yes, I did have to come around on revolutions, but, you know, I also don't think, you know, I understand why people kind of were upset by revolutions, because, like, revolutions has so little to do with that core trillit, that core, like, Trinity, I guess, of Trinity, Morpius and Neo, like.

Well, along that same tip. It's really the battle for Zion. Like, that's what that movie is. It's the battle for Zion, at which Morpheus is kind of a sideline character. And then it's just a lot of, sorry, mumbo-jumbo between Neo and Smith, but not even Hugo Weaving Smith, like this other fucking Jemoke, who's in the ship with him or whatever. And I think people walked out of that movie at the end. you sort of, after the way that reloaded ends, you're like, well, at least the last one will explain everything. And I think people walked out of that movie at the end and they're like, what happened? Like, did we win? Did we lose? What's going on? Why is that little girl here? The answer is yes. Right. Do you feel like Resurrections does write by Trinity and Carrie Ann Moss, does it give her enough to do? Or is she mostly the end, sorry to like, I'm going to press my finger on the scale for a second.

Is she mostly the end product of a quest that then in the last 20 minutes of the movie gets to be a hero? It's kind of the design of the movie. I don't have necessarily a problem with it because of the places we do get to go. And like you, this is maybe the one where the like the new version of this. character is actually the new version of the character and like you get a lot of the trinity nests in this movie from bugs so is trinity short-sighted maybe but not by the like trinity is basically saved for the third act of the movie doesn't bugs though go away once trinity comes back kind of because bugs i think stay does bugs stay in io i watched this a full like i don't think

we see bugs in the last half hour of the movie she's maybe swirling in the San Francisco sky. Like, you know. All right. My last... They're sky dancing. I love how the end of this movie is effectively. Neo and Trinity becoming one of those little sky dancer things.

You know, like you put the little fairy on the stick and then you pull the string and then they just fly away. I won't disagree with you. That is very much like what the end of this movie is. I mean, like this is not not the Lisa Frank version of. the matrix. Like I, yeah. And like, I say that fully brackets complementary. Like, do you know what movie I fell asleep in front of and I don't think I'm going to end up going back and finishing? Or maybe I will just to be a completist is Lisa Frankenstein. A Lisa Frank. Lisa Frank.

Which I know isn't a Lisa Frank product, but like, I just don't think it's interesting. I will have to, I will have to, as a Diablo Cody completeist, I will eventually have to watch it. But I have seen a lot of people. hate, hate that movie. I didn't. I wanted to. I didn't like it. One last gripe, and then I'm going to let you sort of take this home with... We are the last people that will ever speak of the movie, Lisa Brickettstein. 100%.

Because I want to give you the last word on this, because your love for this movie is pure, and I don't want to... Oh, thank you. I was genuinely... This is not me being a bitch. This is not me being an imp. I genuinely was disappointed by this movie returning to the gun-heavy action spectacle that the first three were after so much has happened in the world. I've seen this complaint. I understand the complaint. However, I think it's the villains who have the guns at the end of this movie. I think that's right, but I also feel like it's a little bit of my like Wolf of Wall Street thing. It's like, yes, these are things that the bad guys are doing, but we are all reveling in the thrill of a big action set piece with a shit ton of guns. Do you know what I mean?

That like ultimately, just because the bad guys are using them doesn't really absolve the movie to me. It's not really a Wolf of Wall Street thing because that's like the point of Wolf of Wall Street. That's like, this is what we do as a movie. populace like regularly and the movie is just like holding a mirror to it but right but no i mean i hear you but it's not like the heroes don't also use guns in this movie so i also just think the visual language as much as like there's things that you know Lana can kind of pick and choose uh throughout i think i think like the good versus evil fighting when like humans are involved in this movie.

It's so the visual language of the movie that, like, I think there's no way around it. That's fair. But I hear the complaint. I hear the complaint. Yeah. Because, like, I don't like that either, and I don't like seeing guns and movies like that either. I just feel like for as much as, and again, this is maybe putting expectations on the Wachowski's that are not fair to put on them.

But I think they've, their careers have moved to a. place where they sort of feel very free to imagine the world that they want to be. You know what I mean? And I think, obviously, within this story, this is the analyst's world that he built. So the analyst, of course, would make it a world full of guns. But I just felt a little bit bummed out that, like, this story about love conquering all or whatever is still ultimately a story about big, big, loud gun fights. And I also didn't think those scenes were particularly through the whole thing.

All of those, like, chases through the streets of, is it, I guess it's fake San Francisco, right? I think it's fake San Francisco, though. I'm, I think some of that, like, finale stuff is truncated because I think they started filming a lot of that pre-COVID. Yeah, that would make sense. And I'm not sure what they could film of that mid-COVID. Does the analyst at the end, is he living in the real world house, um, On that street with all the winding hills or whatever. I feel like he's in that neighborhood that they come and they like tear the walls off of his house and have fun sort of slapping him around for a little bit.

What you're saying is the analyst is in tech because this is San Francisco. Again. And to live in that neighborhood, you have to be in tech. The glee with which this movie operates in slapping Neil Patrick Harris around. I'm going to exit where I entered. I just feel like this movie has a lot of fun, no judgment, no value judgment, but has a lot of fun slapping around a cisgender white gay man. That's all.

That's all. But what does she say after she slaps him? I don't know. What does she say? She says that's for using children because her children are a pawn. Because I'm not even going to say. say it. That's like, I'm not even going to I think you're taking this too far. I'm not even going to pizza gate this thing.

You are taking this too far. I'm, I'm maybe comedically taking this too far. I do. Yeah, you're, you are, you are comedically ribbing. I do feel like this movie does take a white gaze on my right perspective to it. But I really don't think you have a case there beyond the fact that these two characters,

one of whom is not all bad. I have an ironclad case. And again, we've all thought it. So no shade to Lana. We've all had that thought. All right. My last thoughts on this movie. Take us home.

Genuine. I mean, like, Lily's not associated to this movie. I don't care. I can't wait to see whatever either of them make in the future. Get going on something. I will be there. I hope it's not another Matrix thing. I would like to see them.

Lily does TV, and we know how I feel about most television productions. these days. Sure. Make another movie. I would like to see another movie. Let them make another movie. Let them make truly, literally, whatever they want because... Yes.

Their movies have made... Some rich person with a vineyard fund their next movie. Who are these crazy Germans who funded... Not Tom Tickfer. Funded Cloud Atlas. Rued and unwarranted. Give them money again. Maybe just Tom Tickfer.

Horizon style Megalopolis style is the funder of Cloud Atlas and was like Hey Lana and Lily I'll give you money if you say I directed part of this

No he directed part of the movie I think he directed the novel Who else were you being like Really really mean towards Oh Branson Missouri The citizens of Branson Missouri And Tom Tickfer are going to class action suit Noted mayor of Branson Missouri

Tom Tickfer No I have nothing against Branson. It's just like, it's the answer that comes up to my head for, like, what is Middle America? Okay. All right. Anything else you want to compliment this movie for besides hating TopTickford? I can't let you leave with shade.

You've got to leave with... You know what? Good movie. I appreciate its audacity working in the form that it's working in. I think people should give it a change. chance of consideration other than I didn't get it. Much like Joe Reed has today, I have to compliment my friend in at least trying to grapple with and wrap his head around the movie, unlike any other dismissive perspective

I've seen on this movie. Let me find some Merovingian quotes to end this with, because truly... Hell yeah, the Marevindian. I definitely wrote some down and then they went away, and I don't know where they went to, so I need to, all right, hold on. Okay. Some of them start off as like, oh, I agree with that,

where he goes, art, films, books were all better. Originality mattered. You gave us face Zucker suck. Just like throw it. Just like word salad of, oh, well, there's some other really good ones. Come on, I, MDB.

Most of these are analyst quotes, which I get it. But, like, come. on. Give us a Meravengian. Also, the makeup and hairstyling that they give the Marevincian in this movie is just like, they made the man look like Yotorowski. Like, it's so funny. Yeah, that's the only Marevindian quote.

That's bullshit. It's bullshit. He was saying some real weird-ass filthy shit. It's fun. All right. Go back and look at the end of the year 2021 box office if you want to, have a real journey. Let, read up.

Matrix of Resurrections happens a week or two after everybody lost their mind over West Side Story, not opening to $100 million or whatever. West Side Story was done so wrong. That was so sad. What do you, where are you on that West Side Story? You never talk about it. Oh, I think it's good. I think it's fine.

I don't, I think maybe people did a little too much on it, but, you know, I have no negative thoughts for it. Loved it. We think we're not going to look back fondly on just handing Ariana DeBos and Oscar. Well, you know, well, you know. Could have been Kiki's Oscar. Well, yeah. But then again, we all liked Power of the Dog more than the Industry, like the Power of the Dog.

The industry likes Power of the Dog fine to a point. I think it, like, they liked it a lot, and that ultimately not the most. Um, no, if anybody from West Side Story should have emerged with an Oscar, say it with me now, Mike Feist, we all agree. And, um, I was never there. It was never there. It doesn't surprise me, honestly, and this is not me shading you. It's, you are the last person in the world I would expect to, uh, to get the Mike Feist. I think he's good. I was just never there on that particular performance being the anointed one. Have you seen the bike riders yet? Not yet. No. No. I will. He's in it, I will say, he's in it more than you would think he is, given the fact that he's not in the trailers whatsoever. Got it. So, got it. Good movie. This is also the Christmas window of Nightmare Alley making like $5 at the box office.

Well, they should give it back. Because shaking. I was tempted to rewatch that movie. You can, you can. I think there's a there. I just think it takes, you know, two and a half hours to get it. I think the people who say that Bradley Cooper. is very good in the final scene of that movie

aren't wrong, but, like, getting there is a journey and a journey that kind of wastes Rooney Mara entirely and doesn't waste Kate Blanchet, but, like, really just puts her through some very, very tired paces.

Nightmare Alley, in my canon of that's not that actor's penis, that is CGI, along with Gone Girl. Is it Cooper's that we're supposed to say? My tinfoil hat theory. No, I think Gone Girl's the real deal. I don't think Fincher. Nope, nope.

That is some Fincher CGI where it's like, it's so good you don't even notice that it's CGI. Is that because you want to deny Ben Affleck the glory of a big hog? I think there's no reason for it to really beat. Do you think if it were real, then J-Lo wouldn't be breaking up with him? Is that what's going on? I think two things. I think I don't know why Fincher would put it there.

Maybe I do. I don't know. And B, I think Ben Affleck's ego is so high that even if that is his history, hip-cracker hog. There's no way that he's putting that in a movie. Next trivia team name is hip-cracks and hogs, and that's this episode, or no, it's not this episode, we've got to do the IMDB game. Oh, yeah, do you want to explain the IMDB game to our listeners?

Sure do. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress and try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television shows, voice-only performances or non-acting credits, we will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, buy gum. It just becomes a free for all of hints. What's the IMDB game?

How's this going today? Are you giving first? Are you guessing first? I'll guess first. All right. So for you, I went into the Waschowski's filmography. I love that you have such a soft sound on Waschowski. It sounds very sweet.

Is that not how it's pronounced? I think it ultimately is your preference. It's not like a miss. I hit our hard, hard ch' on Wachowski. Is that not what I said? Well, you say Wachowski. Like, it's very sort of soft and lovely. Oh, like, I'm a sommelier.

And tonight we have a Wischowski. We have a 1978 Wachowski for you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like battery acid or something. Yeah, it's like, it's supposed to be a wine, but it's an absent. Yes, exactly. All right, anyway. I was going to give you Hugo Weaving, and Hugo Weaving has just like...

Lord of the Rings and Matrixes, and that's it. It's Lord of the Rings and... Hobbits? It's the three Lord of the Rings, and I forget what the other one is, but it's also something very, very obvious. And it's like, we will never pull Hugo Weaving for a known for this reason. No, from the wonderful film Jupiter Ascending, I pulled Mr. Eddie Redmayne. Mr. Edward Redmayne. All right.

Eddie Redmayne, Eddie Redmayne. Well, I imagine theory of everything. Correct. You imagine, though also that's an Oscar win that totally would be conceivable as one of those Oscar wins that does not show up on someone's known for. In a while, I think it's recent enough. that it makes sense that it shows up. I am going to also guess the Danish girl. The Danish girl, unfortunately.

Yeah, that's not great. Okay. It's a Netflix movie, but I'm going to guess the trial of the Chicago 7? Incorrect. Okay. Chicago 7 showed up for somebody recently, though. Redmayne's the most forgettable part of that cast, even though he's ostensibly the lead. But, yeah.

All right. Eddie Redmayne. It's not going to be something weird and wild, like Savage Grace or the other Berlin Girl or something like that. Is it Jupiter ascending? It is not Jupiter ascending. You're getting your years. Your years are 2012 and 2016. 2012 and 2016.

Red Mainz known for is almost entirely sequential almost. Yeah. Okay. So... 12, 14, 15, 16. 2012 Wait, is one of these... No, he's not in tulip fever, never mind.

It conceivably could be. Spiritually, he's a tulip fever boy. He's the tulip. He's the tulip. He's the tulip in tulip fever. Oh, gosh. The thing about Eddie Redmayne is he's actually in a lot of things,

but you sort of like, if you're not a huge fan of his, you're sort of paying attention to everybody else in that movie. What movie? I'm saying in general. Oh. All right. 2012, so this is obviously pre-feary of everything, but he's sort of like he's been

Tony nominated for the play about the artist that Alfred Molina was in. That's a Tony win, I believe. Oh, he won the Tony. I knew it was he or Molina won it. I guess he did. um red who was the artist again that's um that's a rothko play rothko that's about marth i like that play never seen it but um all right Eddie redmayne Eddie redmayne is it an ensemble

2012 is definitely an ensemble you could say 2016 is an ensemble but he is the headliner he's at the he's the headliner yeah okay um 2016, is it like a costume period? 2016? Um, uh, no one would call it a costume drama, but like costumes are an interesting thing to bring up when bringing up this movie. Okay. Um, because they look ridiculous?

Uh, you could say that, but that was not what I was thinking. Is it contemporary? No. So it is a period piece. If I go further with what I was... Is it futuristic? No, it's fantasy. Yeah, okay.

But not Jupiter ascending, because that was 2015, and also you said it's not. Fantasy, Eddie Redmayne. Stuff about costumes. Stuff about costumes. Not like a plot about costumes, but costumes are highly associated. with this movie for a reason. Oh, it's Fantastic Beast. Fantastic Beasts won a very, I might say, dubious costume design man.

Again, yeah. Again, he's the lead of that whole franchise, and yet you talk about any other thing in that but him. The other performances are more, I mean, I only saw the first. It's not even the performances, but you talk about like the past and change. I never saw the third one because the second movie is unwatchable. It really is unwatchable. I watched it on HBO one night, and I could not believe how bad it was.

That it was a thing that they put in theaters. That movie, the costume design lineup, because it won, it was Flo Flo Jankens, La La Land, Allied, and Jackie. So it's like, it's not the greatest. No, but like, why wouldn't you just give it to La La Land? You were giving everything else to Lala Land. Why wouldn't you give it to Jackie? Well, they didn't want to give anything to Jay. No, they didn't want to give shit to Jackie.

All right, 2012. yes 2012 yes and ensemble and ensemble and ensemble and this is exactly your theory you talk about everyone else you do not talk about

Eddie Redmayne is like is it with like a female lead is it like a Jane Austen type of a thing it is not a female lead um is he an Anna Karenina

no it's not Anna Karenina you're getting closer though because period piece and also a genre period piece and a biopic no period piece and a war movie yes but not that genre okay world war two no is the lead a man or a man and a woman uh you would say the lead is a man. The man was, the lead male

was Oscar nominated for this movie. Oh. That's interesting. Oh, God. I'm just going to sigh. I'm just going to sigh loudly. It's Le Miz. It's Le Miz.

You do not talk about Eddie Redmayne whenever you talk, like, no one. He's the last person in that main cast. And yet, this is maybe the first movie I saw with Eddie Redmayne that I'm like, well, why are you doing that acting? what are you doing he doesn't win the Oscar he doesn't win the Oscar he doesn't win the Oscar unless he does lame is like I think that's probably true but I also think he's bad in laymise

he's like doing empty chairs and at empty tables having like a full seizure like what are you doing man like I know I know not everybody loves erintivate because uh uh of facial features that perfect inspire feelings of jealousy and hatred um erintovate blows him off the screen. Yes. And Royos is a better role. Well, it is a better role. But stuff.

Okay. Well, I didn't do what I didn't do. I didn't do great at it. Okay. I will admit that. All right. For you, I went into the Waschowski filmography as well. Great.

I went back, back, back, back, back, back, back, back, back. To Bound and one of its stars who is Ms. Gina Gershens. Yeah. Yeah, is bound on there. It is. Great. Showgirls.

Yes. Yes. I'm just happy that showgirls is there. She's so great in showgirls. Legitimately great, not like revisionist. Showgirls is actually great, but like... Okay. Sometimes people lean into its greatness too much.

We're going to have a small conversation about this. I love Elizabeth Berkeley. I think Elizabeth Berkeley has... made great things out of her career. I think the people who try and sell that performance as being more than it is are maybe trying a little too hard. I think there's people that with showgirls, they're like, it's good because it's bad. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. It gets to be one or the other.

And I say that it's good. But like, there's people that are like, no, but it is trash. So therefore, it's good. And it's like, you know what? It can also just be. I think it is trash and therefore it's fun. I don't think it needs to be a masterpiece for me to like it. That said, Gina Gershaw is exactly, as you said, perfect in that movie.

I used to love Doggy Chow. All right. Two more. She's like a walking cigarette in that movie. I love it so much. No, what she is is a walking pair of frosted lipstick. That is like, that is the epitome of frosted lipstick that movie. It's quite incredible.

She's like knife acrylic nails that are like nigh. sharp, but then still also a French manicure. Incredible performance. All right, two more. Do you like my tits? Okay, Gina. I'm tempted to say Killer Joe because I think Killer Joe showed up for, like, Juno Temple.

Really? I thought Killer Joe showed up for someone. He's surprised. I'll say it, Killer Joe. Killer Joe, you are three- Oh, shit. Gina Gershant, I've told you my Killer Joe story. I've probably said it on this podcast before,

how I saw Killer Joe in the theater, and when Gina Gershant's character gets punched in the face repeatedly. Yeah. You were with an audience that did not understand that movie. Applied and cheered, at which point I wanted to leave, but there were people on either end of me in the row, so I couldn't walk out without walking, you know, over somebody's legs, which is probably the last time I ever said in the middle seat. I was going to say, I feel like this is why you're a strict aisle boy now.

Yes, if at all possible, yes. Because of other people. What? The other thing with Gina Gershawne is like, they're so... This is the thing that I do. I'm like, but there's so many. And then I get into, you know, I go into the white space where it's just like static on a TV. Yeah, no, I know what you mean.

You've definitely picked, like, the most prominent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not going to be as easy to get. And I don't think it's, I don't think there's going to be anything more recent than Killer Joe on there. But, like, is it as into the? the 90s as bound. I don't think so either. So maybe I'm also

just struggling to come up with a performance of hers even though I love her. I would have done better if I had not, if Killer Joe was wrong. Right, because you could just throw another one out there and get ears. Ooh, fireworks are happening. Uh-oh, we're recording this on July 3rd, everyone.

We never record this soon to airing. Miss Gina, who is in... I've gotten so good at Cinematrix, too, that it's like, I feel chill doing that, and I feel so much pressure doing this. There's actually one that would probably jump out for me, although I'm going to tell you it's not... That one, right, right, right.

But I want to let you try and guess it. there's more action movies. I think the next one's going to be an action movie, which is, no, is, she never did a Paul movie again. She's got to be something like late 90s. I'm struggling so hard. And I can't even just like name. Name a movie. Name a movie. Just name two movies. Name a woman.

This is your name a woman. Yeah, this is name a Gershahn movie. I love Gina Gershant. Also, it's like 9.30 at night, so I'm crashing, too. Brain, yeah. You're Bidening right now. We can't go full circle this episode. We can't.

All right. I'm just going to name Arnold. She's in an Arnold. Arnold Schwarzenegger movie can't remember which one it is. Is it the sixth day? Uh, not the sixth day. One more. It's not last action hero.

Is she in a racer? What's that? Is she in a racer? No. She's not in a racer. She's probably in no Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. I'm just trying to think of action movies. I don't know if she is in a Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.

I think I know what movie you're talking about, but it's not Arnold Schwarzenegger. Your year is 2007. Okay. So it's not as, as Killer Joe. is it an action movie it is not okay oh oh she's in like a not a not like a not like as good as michael clayton but she's in like some type of Pollock-esque movie right is that it no that's the one I would have guessed but it's not that's not the one I'm talking what's that movie you're thinking of the insider but it's but that's not her for us she's good and

And I was like, Michael Man, Michael Man. She gets yelled at by Mike Wallace. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So 07, not an action movie. It's, is it a horror movie? Not horror. So it's kind of the opposite, the polar opposite. Oh, it's a comedy.

It is, and a specific type of comedy. Is it like a bro comedy? No. Is it a... Kind of the opposite of a bro comedy. A gal-pal comedy. Well, not that much the opposite, but what are the kind of movie that people in a bro comedy would never want to see? A lady comedy.

Yeah, but particularly what kind of a lady comedy? An old lady comedy. No. It's a chick flick. Oh, okay. Chick-flick from 07? Yeah. Huh.

Starring an Oscar winner. Oscar winner at that point. It's not like what to expect when you're expecting, is it? When did that come out? No. That came out in the teens, I'm sure. Poster of this movie is said Oscar winner and also the person who plays their love interest. That person was not having a good time of it in the aughts in terms of their

their perceptions of their talent. Oh. The love interest or the Oscar winner? The love interest. I mean, the Oscar winner also kind of. This is a movie you've definitely heard of. This is maybe not a movie that you've seen. It is a chick flick with a kind of a high concept premise.

It's not a Nicholas Sparks movie. It's too, well, no, is it a Nicholas Sparks movie? It's not a Nicholas. Chick-flick flick comedy, though. Is it Bride Wars? Yeah. It's not Bride Wars. It's more, it's more romance than comedy.

Bride Wars, they didn't have their Oscar by then. More romance than comedy, but still romantic comedy. Someone who had already had an Oscar by 07. So they won their Oscar in the 90s? Uh-huh. And I'm going to assume that this lead we're talking about is an actress. Yes. Actress who won their Oscar in the 90s.

It's not Jessica Lang. It's not Susan. It's not... No, think younger. Not Chodi Foster. Ask me another question about when they won their Oscar. It was in the 90s. Yeah, but pretend you didn't ask that.

What else might you have asked? Leader supporting? No, but like ask the when did they win their Oscar question again, but like don't say the 90s. When did they win their Oscar? No. Did they win their Oscar in the, but then just say another decade? Did they win their Oscar in the 80s? No.

Did they win their Oscar in the 2000s? Yes. And the 90s. Oh, Hillary. Slank. Oh, P.S. I love you? It's P.S. I love you. Yes. Wow. Yeah. Apparently she's, I imagine the friend. I've never seen P.S. I love you, I don't think. Nor have I. Do I want me to give you the cast? Hillary Swank, Gerard Butler, Harry Comic Jr., Lisa Kudrow, Kathy Bates, Gina Gershon, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, Sherry Renee Scott. Sure. James Marsters, Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Dean Winters, what's his name from 30 Rock, Dennis Duffy from 30 Rock? I would have never in a million years known that Gina Gershahn was in that movie.

Absolutely not, never, never once. Yeah, that's the plot of that movie is her husband dies and leaves her notes, and they are like, here's how I want you to move on without me or something like that. Great. Awesome. Yeah, super. Joe, we've made it.

We've made it. This is a two-hour episode purely because of the IMDB game. I'm sorry, listener. We're recording this late at night and we usually do this in the morning. Next week, Joe, it's our 300th episode. Speaking of Gerard Butler, we are going to be talking about the movie.

movie 300. Not the movie 300. We will not be doing 300. We will somehow be doing an even fucking wilder movie than the Matrix Resurrections. Let's leave a hint. I feel like it would be fun to leave a hint. The hint for this is that somebody in the Matrix Resurrections is connected to somebody in the movie we're going to be doing. Sure.

Sure. Oh, boy. Oh, boy, this episode. I can't wait. And then we get to recap the whole year by doing a ballot off of the movies we've done. I got to get, I got to prepare for that. I started to, and as always, I don't feel like it's ever, I feel like my list is boring, but I'll try to make it interesting.

Your list. So this is from 250 to 300, or are we doing the whole? 251 to 300. Right, 251 to 300. I forget what episode that was, but it'll be there. 251. I can tell you right now, because I've got the list right in front of me, 251 was Love and Mercy. Good movie.

It's recorded in August of 2023 with our friend Taylor Cole. Aw, hi, Taylor. That's our episode. If you want more, This Had Oscar Buzz. You should check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.com. Also follow us on Twitter at had underscore Oscar Buzz, Instagram at This Head Oscar Buzz, and follow our Patreon at Patreon.com. slash this had Oscar buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you?

Well, I'm on the socials at Joe Reed, but more importantly, you can find me at Vulture doing two specific things, one of which is the Gold Rush newsletter where we're covering the Emmy Award race, which you can sign up for at Vulture. And then also the Cinematrix, every single day we just, by the time you're listening to this, we will have already had our 100th grid, speaking of milestones. And you can sign up for an email reminders from Vulture Games that can alert you to when a new Cinematrix has been published. Have fun. We've got some good ones coming up. My brain's always churning, always looking to do unwell things with the Cinematrix. So come join us. I'm on Twitter and Letterbox at Crispy File.

That's F.E.I.L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Miebius, for their team. technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts wherever else you get those podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So make this podcast,

I don't know, in a review, call us his had Oscar Booz. Like, Zion and I, I don't, I'm so tired. Hey, guess what? Listen, the day this episode drops is my birthday. If you want give me a birthday present go on Apple podcast and slam that fifth star for us. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week for more bugs.