This Had Oscar Buzz - 303 – Red Rocket

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

With Anora anointed with the Palme d’Or this year, one of the narratives ahead in the coming season will be whether Sean Baker’s microbudgeted cinema will be embraced by the Academy in a big way. After lots of buzz for Tangerine and an acting nom for Willem Dafoe in The Florida Project, Baker was buzzed again for Red Rocket and its showcase … Continue reading "303 – Red Rocket"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Melan Hack, Melan Hack and French. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh Almost every day for the last 17 years I moved back in with my wife last week No, I'm calling the cops

Fuck Really? We decided to make a run of it I just need a place to crash for a couple of days What's the big deal? Mikey Go fuck yourself Look, I'm gonna be straight with you

I'm an adult film actor Excuse me So why are you? back, Mr. Hollywood. You're Mikey. Welcome back, dude. I'm on top of my game right now on like every single possible level. Physical stamina.

My mind is sharp. I'm taking 5-HTP for serotonin in my brain. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that would absolutely knock over a child to make the subway. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy.

I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my five-time Avian Award winner, Chris Fial. Hello, Chris. With an 81% positive click rate. Every time he starts, like, bragging on that. I mean, everything Simon Rex does in this movie makes me laugh. I think he's so incredibly funny. What's the analog to, like, Rotten Tomatoes ratings with click rates?

Because if it's one-to-one, that's pretty good, you know? But the thing is, with, like, rotten tomatoes, it's like they have so many people on there that it's all about raising the waters to like really good is 90% right like like click rates isn't that sort of you're getting into those Netflix things of like watched at least like two minutes of a movie or whatever like I don't I don't trust that at all Mikey's going to be mad when all these politicians take away his click rates you know for real for real that's the only thing of like setting this when they set this during the 26th campaign is it missed that like Mikey fighting for space on only fans or something like that, like fighting for his life to get his stuff up on

only fans. So I'm so excited to talk about this movie. I'm so glad we decided to use the occasion of Sean Baker having another movie in the awards conversation to talk about Red Rocket. We basically knew that this episode was coming this year. So why not get it out there before the fall festival run starts? Considering Anora is from neon. and has won the palm, we can imagine that based off of their past track record of winning the palm, that they're about to take this to as many festivals as they can.

I finally saw the Anora trailer about a week ago, and part of me was psyched, and part of me was like, oh, I kind of wish, like... They hadn't told you what the whole movie was going to be? I don't even know if they... Like, that's the thing is I don't even know if they give away the whole movie, but, like, I know more about the movie than I maybe want to. I was like, I think after the first, that trailer and, um, the Hunter Schaefer horror movie

trailer. Cuckoo. Oh, see, Cuckoo I felt like was like the ideal trailer in that I'm, I'm psyched. I'm in, but I have no idea what the hell this movie is about. I think in both of those cases, I'm like, after 30 seconds, I've like, you've made your sale. Like, you can stop talking to me. Like, I'm, you got me. And, and...

Anora at least feels like a trailer that showed you the whole movie, unlike the newest quiet place that truly shows you the whole movie in all of the 15 trailers that fucking movie had. I think there's a way in which you can watch a trailer and you're like, oh, you're showing me the like of the turn that this movie takes halfway through. And I'm like, I don't need to know that. Just like, just give me a taste. I know that like complaining about trailers is the most basic thing a movie podcast can do. But, like, it's just, like, just, and I also imagine that this all must be research-based, the market research-based, that there must be some study in a drawer somewhere, that everybody has decided to take a sacrosanct, that audiences respond better to trailers that give away more information.

But, like, when you're on the level of a Nora that it's like maybe they want to make as much money as they can off of this thing, but, like, do our parents know who Sean Baker is? Right. Like, what's going to... Like, are they ever going to get sold on a Nora anyway? So just, like, maybe... It might as well, you know, preserve the experience. If it gets the reviews and people like it, sure.

Sure. Well, sure. But I guess what I'm saying is... I don't know what kind of crossover potential a trailer is going to have. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think a trailer is sort of preaching to a more refined audience anyway. So... Yeah.

I mean... I'm maybe hesitant on Anora a little bit, but as far as the trailer is concerned, none of us have seen it until Katia's Amalajka has seen it. Like, whenever Katia knows about this movie exists, then the movie has survived. I just need to know Katia's opinion. Wait, what is your... Wait, what is your... Who's like, but Katia, but like seriously. Anytime anything Russian happens, you're just like, I need to, I need Katia's opinion on this.

Russian and sex workers and like, you know... Fair. Fair, fair, better. Katia than Plain Jane. Wait, what is your, what is your reticence with this movie from what little we know of it? I'm about to make any friends. Uh-oh. You will understand.

What? You will understand. And I know, I know I shouldn't hold, I shouldn't hold it against everyone. But Mikey Madison, my only experience being with the, just like, bottom of the, dumpster scream sequel that made me so angry. I know. Continues to make me so angry, and frankly, I thought she was terrible in it. And every time I see someone being like, yes, queening her performance in that movie, I'm like, absolutely not.

So I agree with you on that. And I also agree with you that like that coming on the heels of her in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, where it's like, oh, they found the one thing that they want Mikey Madison to do, which is to go. Oh, I thought she was fine in that. Everybody was annoyed by her in that, and I thought it was fine. But I think in general, I think the similarity is between those two performances. I was like, whatever. But whenever that happens, and I'm like, why is everybody flipping out over this performance by a young person that I think is either okay or not that great? I find out later that they're like from something else. Like, Mikey Madison is from- We haven't watched better things. Right. Mikey Madison's from better things. Or Jenna Ortega was on a season. of you or um you know such and such was probably on you know euphoria or something like that like that kind of thing or it's just like oh okay they're just from a television show i've never watched that's like i get i get it now like i get whereas and if you know somebody from a tv show

that you've watched all of and they make it into a movie i've been on the other side of that you know what i mean where i can be like very enthusiastic about somebody and they're like that person like why you know where's that coming from and it's like oh i seen, you know, all of Katie Sackoff on Battlestar Galactica, which is why, you know, I'm excited for her. What was that one horror movie she was in? Was it Oculus, I want to say? Which I actually think she was really good in. But anyway. My other, my other reticence, and I will be more than happy to be wrong, much as there are plenty of people with complaints about Sean Baker out there, I'm sure we'll get into them, especially because. because some of them surfaced around time this movie. I don't know if we're going to get into him as much as maybe. People have questions about his politics. We'll say that.

I don't care is what I'll say. One of my complaints about this movie that I do think is good and that I can be very positive on while I think it's a profoundly unpleasant experience. That has me reticent for Anora is I don't know if Sean Baker, whose movies I like, I don't know if we need Sean Baker epics. I don't know if we need two and a half hour Sean Baker movies. I don't know. I don't think Red Rocket is better

for pushing the two hour mark. I will say, especially watching it this second time, I was a little bit nervous going back at the second time. I was like, am I going to like it as much? And I ended up liking it as much, if not more, and I definitely didn't feel the length of it. So, like,

I'm okay with letting Sean Baker, maybe push this envelope. We'll see. We'll see if I feel it more in an aura. I'm giving, I'm very comfortable giving a lot of benefit of the doubt to this movie, both because of the good reception that it got in Can and also because he is very much three for three with me. I haven't seen, what was the one before, Tangerine? Did you see Starlit or Take Out? Oh, it's two before Tangerine. There's several, actually. No, the first movie, Including, like, Yorgos Lantamos, he has, like, a movie that he's disavowed and it doesn't exist.

It's been scrubbed from the earth. No, I've only seen... I haven't seen Prince of Broadway. That's the only one I haven't seen, but it's literally on reserve at the library right now. Listeners support your local library. Chris, you are a, like, human library poster. You're, like, it just says read with... I'm the read poster.

You are. Yes, you are. What would be in Sean Baker's read poster? Oh, God. A camera. The menu of a donut shop. A letterbox profile. I'm very much hopeful that Anora...

Is Anora the name of her character? Is that it? Presumably? Okay. That she finds her way into a donut chop at some point in the next movie. Just to keep continuity with it. There would be a donut on Sean Baker's. There is 100... What would be on Mikey's read poster? It feels like it would just be a dick.

and read would be written on his dick and then, I don't know, a Trump flag. Oh, Mikey, sorry, for a second I thought you were talking about Mikey Madison again. I was just like, wait a second. Like, what's going on there? No, you mean Mikey from Red Rocket? Yes. No.

Mikey Madison is a nice lady. She would have a nice read poster. I think you. Okay, now we're back on track. Yeah, no. Mikey from Red Rocket, it would write. It would be a signed poster of his dick. it would be a mountain dew

A mountain dew. And not the good kind of mountain dew, not a Baja blast. No, horrible, awful, regular, awful mountain dew. It would be that gray tank top undershirt that we used to call another term that we probably can't say anymore, even though that's still the first thing that comes to my mind when I see a tank top of that type. And then what's the fourth thing? The fourth thing is weed. I guess. I don't know. The laundry list of criminal charges

that will be brought up against him. What, just I'm so, I'm just so excited to get into the meat and potatoes of this movie because I think it is a fascinating and I would say pretty gutsy movie. And I think because of that

it ends up getting pretty well glossed over, despite the fact that it got good reviews. This is not a great movie to come out at a time when adults are not going to adult movies. Well, but even, but even in the micro, like, in the micro landscape of awards and awards season where people are more discerning and you don't have to, like, sell a movie broadly, even still, this got passed over. And I have my theories as to why. but this is certainly this this the Red Rocket came at a sort of trajectory point for Sean Baker's career where he breaks out he does more movies than I clearly realize he made but then breaks out with Tangerine in 2015 and that does the like

it's the high end of what you would say as to like the indie awards circuit, right? It gets, you know, it premieres at Sundance. It gets an award at Sundance. It gets nominated for Indy Spirit Awards. It gets nominated for, I'm pretty sure, Gotham Awards and stuff like that. Like, that's the, it wins an indie spirit award for Maya Taylor. Um, and then that then levels up. incrementally, but definitely, levels up with the Florida Project, where now all of a sudden you're getting an actor who, you know, makes the rounds at every precursor up to and including the Oscars. You're on lists of top 10 movies of the year. You are getting best director nominations, and it just feels like Florida Project was probably a near miss for best picture in 2017 as a nominee, I would think, right? Do we feel like the two that I think are the closest near misses are, have we had this conversation before? Because I feel like I've mentioned how I felt

like I Tanya was next in line. I Tanya was definitely close to Best Picture. See, I think we want to think that about the Florida Project. We who really like that movie, but I don't actually think it was ever really close. And like that was a movie. that kind of struggled to find an audience not in the way Red Rocket did because there was not still an ongoing global pandemic. Unless you mean the ongoing global pandemic of, I don't know, I, Tanya. The, I, I, I struggle.

And this is kind of where I'm like, well, Sean Baker is so off the Oscar map that it took the palm door to really maybe have him have a fighting chance at Oscar, where it's like, you know, people like us have, you know, talked up his movies, and I would say deservedly so, for the movies that would have had a shot, like things beyond Willem Defoe in the Florida Project,

but I think that was still a movie that was too off the map for the industry. I kind of disagree with you, if only because... I feel like, and this is totally anecdotally, so, like, feel free to, like, disregard. But I do feel like I remember that after a certain point, I think a lot of people outside of the movie critic, movie blogger, movie Twitter sort of sphere started talking about the Florida Project. I think it didn't sort of filter down into, like, the level of, like, my parents, but it filtered down into the level of, like, people who, don't see every movie. But I feel like there was more and more chatter of, oh, I saw this movie.

It's called The Florida Project, like, whatever people with like football podcast that I listen to or whatever would talk about it. And she's like, there's a really good movie, actually. And I just feel like there was something zeitgeisty about it. Certainly, I'm looking at the other movies that could have been close that year. Like, definitely. I think we both sort of agree with I, Tanya,

but, like, I would put the Florida project ahead of something like mudbound or something like I wouldn't put it above mudbound. I would even put it above something like Blade Runner 2049, which feels like the classic, like, craft, you know, five craft nominees, but nothing.

Also, who was super passionate about that movie at the time? There's certainly, like, critics, but, like, within the industry that they were going to give it a Best Picture nominee, that's not real. Whereas, like, you could at least maybe understand the Florida project having a, like, a basis of support to get that, like, whatever it is, 2.1% to get the Best Picture nomination. But, you know, it would have been fully by the grace of God if that had gotten into Best Picture. I don't think it really ever stood a real chance.

Well, anyway, you and I disagree fundamentally about the 2017 Best Picture Race, but we don't have to linger on it. Um, anyway, so it does, it does feel like the trajectory from Tangerine to Florida project is at least moving up, like, you know, upwards and upwards. And then you get to something like Red Rocket, which then, so we're entering that season. I remember I was very high on Red Rocket, you know, from a year ahead perspective. When I was on the Vanity Fair podcast, you know, I sort of talked about it as one of the movies that I had had my eye on, in part because. It had this sort of ready-made narrative where, you know, Simon Rex is making this big comeback project with a role that dovetails with his own life and career, at least superficially, where he had done, you know, adult videos during his youth or whatever.

And so now he's playing this porn star. And it was going to be at Cann. And Sean Baker is on a, you know, feels, felt like, He was on the precipice of breaking out. So I was like, well, all of these ingredients seem to fit. And then it goes to Cannes. And it, again, doesn't get bad reviews. It just doesn't win anything. And sometimes that's like the worst position to be at coming out of Cannes. Because at least if you were booed, people are interested to find out why.

Do you know what I mean? Whereas, like, you know, sometimes you'll just get movies that are like, politely, positively received. And then, despite having very awardable aspects to it, like, if you haven't looked up who won Best Actor at that Can, you're going to shit when you find out, because it is, in fact... Listener. Trust and believe I would rather have Can Best Actor Prize to Simon Rex. No question. I don't even think you have to like, you know, have to have it clear such a low bar.

I think Simon Rex, of all of the movies from Cannes that year, I think, that I have seen. I would have given him my best actor a trophy. But certainly Caleb Landry Jones in Nightrim is not going to be your choice. Although I will say I've never seen Nightrim, so maybe I would have felt differently. Can't say that he would be my best actor pick from this lineup. But what I will say, like the context we should give. about this Cannes is like I think every movie

kind of had maybe if not pressure but more like kind of built up behind it just by the nature of appearing in this competition at Cannes because like this is when you know the movies were back but like for a certain audience it really felt like oh the movies

are back because Cann had not gone on the previous year so it's like for global cinema for the like cinephile audience like it really felt like like, this reemergence from what we had gone through and we're still going through. For as much as, though... And Red Rocket shows up.

No, go ahead. Well, I was going to say, for as much as we talk about the 2020 Oscars as being the one with the asterisk, because it was the pandemic year and hardly anything played in theaters and we're sort of, you know, stretching for nominees. 2021 almost feels like the silent asterisk where people sort of assume that, like, well, you know, we were back and theaters were open again and people were seeing movies again. And I think the farther we get away from it, the more we kind of forget that, like, people were seeing movies sort of again. Like, you look at one of the things I think is most telling about that year is look at the Independent Spirit Award nominations from 2021. And you're like, oh, there were like no major indie successes.

The major indie success, Coda, was one that, like, mostly succeeded on Apple. You know what I mean? Like, there were these... And in Q&As, not in, you know, real paying audiences going and showing up to see that movie. In a very real way, it did not feel like movies were back in a sense of awards movies until everything everywhere all at once was a success in the spring. in the spring of 2022. Do you know what I mean? And I would argue maybe Cannes has struggled to match the 2021, like, excitement and energy.

And granted, they, like, put more movies in competition. They have Spike as the jury president, no dissing whatsoever to the juries or the jury presidents that have come before him. But, like, Spike was this incredible mascot for, like, all of us who were excited about movies during that process. Like, you know, you hate to talk about the timeline, but, like, you were constantly seeing him, like, at all of the premieres, shaking hands with the filmmakers who had just presented their movie. Yeah. And just, like, so thrilled to be in the position that he was in. He's a fantastic ambassador for film in general because he is such a, an enthusiast about it. You know what I mean?

Like, it's very, it's sometimes hard to, even though it may not be the case, it's, sometimes hard to imagine a lot of these like filmmakers and autors, um, seeing each other's movies sometimes because they could say sometimes seems so, so much of the like, you know, drilled down artist. And Spike Lee does not have that air about him at all. He's very much somebody who seems like he's excited about all sorts of different kinds of movies. Mm-hmm. And I think you see that enthusiasm and that, you know, context of where we were in the world with seeing movies in these award winners where it's like, you have multiple ties, you have like so many movies that get an award, which for the case like Red Rocket

doesn't help you out at all because, you know, all these other movies won awards even if they were in a tie. Yeah. Red Rocket doesn't win anything. So what is your best actor pick from the 27, or from the 2021 Cannes Film Festival? I mean, if I was following the Cannes rules and I wasn't primed to give it a larger prize. I mean, it's probably Adam Driver in Annette. Oh, interesting. I love Evan Driver in Annette. Or Vincent Landon and Titan, who was on my best actor lineup that year.

Sure, sure, sure, sure. I don't like compartment number six. I think that movie is fine and did not need that prize that it tied for it can, but the lead actor in that is really good, who is also apparently in an aura. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Yuri Borisov. Yeah, I do put Simon Rex above all of them. We'll get into the whole, the best actor, greater sort of conversation from 2021, because I do want to talk about it.

And where Simon Rex might have fit in with that. But I think before we do, Chris, why don't you talk about our Patreon and why? are, if you have not yet signed up for This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance, you really should, truly. Listen, not only for the cost of a cheesy Gordita Crunch, but for the price of, I'm going to guess, half a dozen medium to acceptable half dozen deli donuts, $5 a month, you can sign up for our Patreon called This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulant Brilliance. What are you going to get over there? You're going to get two bonus episodes every month, first of which we call exceptions. This is the movies that fit that this had Oscar Buzz rubric but managed to score an Oscar nomination or two. They arrive on the first Friday of every month.

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No better time than the present to go sign up for that. So, Chris, I'm going to now have you prepare yourself to give a 60-second plot description on the movie Red Rolls. rocket. I'm not going to predict. It's a fool's errand to predict how easy or difficult it will be to do a 60-second plot description on one of these. I'm not going to tip my fate in any direction by making a comment on how well I think I will or won't do. Fair. All right. So we are talking about the 2021 film Red Rocket directed by Sean Baker, written by Chris Bergotch, and Sean Baker, starring Simon Rex, Brie Elrod, Susanna's son, Brendan Dice, the late Brendan Dice, I believe, Judy Hill, it premiered...

Judy Hill, previously of Roberto Minervini's documentary, what are we going to do when the world's on fire? When she showed up on screen, I was like, that's fucking Judy! If you've ever seen that documentary, great documentary, Robert Rominovini's docs are very, very harrowing. was happy to see Judy doing well, though. The film premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, as we've mentioned, on July 14th, 2021. It opened in limited release on December 10th, 2021. And when we say limited, we do mean limited. It did not play on very many screens at any point in its run.

Chris, I have the stopwatch queued up. Are you ready to do 60 seconds on the plot of Sean Baker's Red Rocket? sure and begin it's 2016 and i don't know if you know this but things are about to get really bad mikey saber returns to texas city texas his hometown where he was basically excommunicated from and became a famous porn star he is down on his dump so he's returning home looking for a new break in he still has an estranged wife that he weasels his way back into her home where she lives with her mother things are always tense there but he you know managed to weasel his his way into, like, sleeping in the bed and blah, blah, blah. They tell him he has to get a job and he's trying to find a way to get a job, and he eventually gets a job dealing pot, which basically we find out later is a favor to his former wife and her mother. Meanwhile, he starts moving in on a teenage girl at a donut shop who calls her strawberry,

devises a plan with her to basically start, move back to California and start porn for her. so that, like, she can take her virginity on camera. It's disgusting. And meanwhile, he's made friends with the neighbor boy named Lonnie, who gets arrested and takes the fall for Mikey when they do this massive car pile up, even though, like, Mikey's also at fault. And we think we're supposed to feel bad for Lonnie, but it turns out Lonnie was also a very recent sex offender who is now in jail.

Anyway, they've had enough of Mikey and his ex-wife Lexi basically kicks him out along with Leandro, who's been, you know, his provider of weed who he's been selling for, and they kick him out, and then he walks across town to Strawberry's house, and we are left with an ambiguous ending of what is going to happen, and if he's learned anything, the end. The end, 40 seconds over time. Kind of a lot going on in this, certainly a lot emotionally going on in this movie, but there are also, like, there's a lot of moving parts plot-wise. You've got Mikey and Strawberry You've got Mikey and his ex and her mom in that whole home situation.

You've got him dealing with drugs. You've got him and Lonnie, the neighbor guy, which even despite the sort of, you know, how that finally ends, you know what I mean? With, you know, why Lonnie is going to jail and whatnot, it still feels like such. I was trying to track of like, emotionally speaking, like, where are the biggest sort of, like, fuck you, Mikey, parts of this movie. And that's such a big one when he, you know, is essentially like, I was never here. I was never in this car, you know, disavows Lonnie after the car accident. And then essentially, like, does a little touchdown dance in the backyard after. In front of Lonnie's dad. In front of Lonnie's dad who, like, already, like, can't stand

him, can't stand his ex-wife, can't stand these trashy neighbors he's had to, you know, live next door to, that essentially takes, you know, such glee and joy in somebody else taking the fall for something that was, at the very least, partially his fault. And that's the kind of person Mikey is, right? He's an opportunist. He is somebody who has managed to get this far piggybacking on other people and, you know, sort of taking what he can grab at any point, not ever feeling bad about leaving anybody in the lurch, not ever feeling bad about, you know, whatever he's leaving behind. And at the same time, having this incredibly, I go back and forth over whether he's, he's, he's,

lying to himself and he knows it, or whether he's, he honestly believes that he's, you know, this great porn star, this sort of person with like these big ideas, I'm going to, I'm going to be such a success. I, you know, or whether he's actively knowing that he is full of shit. Because one of the great things about Simon Rex's performance is he keeps up that, that facade of Mikey being so braggadocious and always, like, not, he cannot stop talking for even a second or else it's all going to fall apart for him. You know what I mean? And I think he's so good at making Mikey into this carnival barker of a person where he's is just selling himself constantly, constantly.

Snake oil salesman and the snake oil he is selling is himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is why I think it's, you know, do I like this movie? No, because it's so deeply unpleasant. Do I think it's a good movie? Yes, but it's kind of a quintessential portrait of a psychopath because, first of all, if like the entrance into this is talking about what happens with Lonnie, it's like, It happens at the third act, and it's like, well, this isn't a revelation about Mikey.

We know all this about Mikey when we first meet him, but it's the quintessential, like, portrait of a psychopath in a way because it's like, you're like, well, you don't know if Mikey knows that he's full of shit or that Mikey is a loser, if it's some delusional sense. And I just feel like it's all a big yes and. It is all a soup of psychology within him that it is simultaneously, he knows that he He is a loser. But, like, what is so evil about him is, like, this is why I, in the plot description, brought up the ability from Mikey to over time ingratiate himself into this home, the scenario that he is not welcome in to begin with, that it's like, you can't even get him on the porch. It's not that he is immediately like, okay, put me in a bed.

He knows he'll eventually get to the bed. Or maybe he doesn't know. All he knows is he needs to get to that next step, which is, I need to get in the door. And then once I'm in the door, I can get on the sofa. And then I can get into the refrigerator. And then I can get into the bedroom. And once I'm in the bedroom, you can't get rid of me. And this is why I think that this movie is an absolute, like, in a way, it's a clunky metaphor because it is shown there.

It is set in 2016. We see the Republican National Convention. It is a mirror for the trajectory of Trump's assent to power. It's like at certain points in the story, I'm like, ah, here we are, the New Hampshire primary. And like, I can't escape that in my brain. So it's impossible for me to be someone who has like even a rueful good time at this movie. But I do think. Man, see, all I do is have a rueful good time.

I don't even think half the time is not even a rufe of the real. Well, because it's about the charismatic evil person. like his charisma is so it's also so funny i just think in general like i think it is written and performed it's so funny i think it's such a and i think that's sort of the you know almost the the the the pill the spoonful of sugar that sort of gets that makes it all the more insidious as to what mikey is doing on all fronts in this movie right Right. Well, and it's by the same token, while I find this movie incredibly unpleasant, and while I also agree with you in like the humor in this movie, I can't align with people who actually think that this movie supports Mikey or is pro Mikey in any way. I think that's a little crazy. Yes.

And I think that's not to, you know, psychoanalyze anybody, but to me always kind of reads as someone managed. their own bad time in this movie for what they think that the movie's intentions are. And I don't think there's anything while, you know, Sean Baker is someone who tries to humanize sex work. Yes. And like all of the prongs of, you know, that, you know, what that could mean, especially as it pertains to American culture. I don't think he thinks Mikey is a good person. Well, right. I think you can, can humanize sex work and you can, you know, treat sex workers as workers, you know what I mean, while still acknowledging the fact that this is often an environment that draws to it people who take advantage of people and people who, you know, bad actors, essentially. And like,

and it's the ways in which every time we return to Mikey talking about, because him talking about the, like, AVM Awards is funny, right? It's a funny sort of recurring motif because he just can't stop talking about it. He talks about it on job interviews. He talks about it with the people he's buying drugs from. He talks about it with the... Lonnie. Boyfriend. Well, Lonnie, of course. He gets Lonnie to idolize him for that. He talks about it with the boyfriend of Strawberry, who he's just sort of had a fight with in the parking lot with him and his parents. And on a certain level, like, that could be a stand-in for anything for this type of person, especially this type of man who wants to

rattle off their, you know, minor accomplishments as, you know, self-aggrandizement. But then they have him talk about, because first of all, one of the great recurring things is everybody ultimately starts to like question whether he deserved all of those awards, because he'll talk about like, I won for like best oral three years in a row. And what's her name, June? Is June the young thug who's out to get him? Leandro's daughter. Yes, tremendous performance.

Child. And June is like, isn't that like, aren't you doing the least amount of work in those scenes? Isn't that just like you getting head and isn't the woman doing all the work? And, like, that gets brought up by so many different people. And every time he tries to justify his role in that, he sounds worse and worse and more. And by the time he's, like, describing how he's, like, essentially, like, face-fucking a woman in these scenes. And that's why he deserves the award as much as, if not more than, you're just like, oh, not only are you full of yourself, but you are also, like... disgusting in bed, you know what I mean? It's just like you are, you know, there's a weird need.

What are you championing yourself for? Well, but there's also this like weird need to like dehumanize and dominate in the way he talks about and whatever. Like I'm not going to go down the road of like role playing and BDSM and whatever. I'm talking about in the way he talks about these women after the fact all the time. Every time you mentions another woman. that he's worked with. She's, you know, she's a slut. She's a skank. She was doing, you know, she was dealing drugs. She was, um, you know, every, every, every description of somebody else is this like awful rundown of who they are. And it is all, again, to serve the greater project of making himself look better. And like, again, who does that sound like? Who does that sound like who's got a bad word to say about everybody he's ever come across? You know what I mean? Like, of course, that's also like trump to a T too. And this movie, it uses that motif heavily, but it is not an allegory.

This is not an allegory of Trump. This is a... It's just a heavy-handed, you know. But it's also like... In the grander sense, I think it makes this movie about a psychology and not just, you know, the world that Mikey exists in, you know, like... It's a very American story to be like, he is Donald Trump. You can at least say, no, he is... emblematic of a certain type of person. He is the, you know, charismatic monster.

Yeah, the amoral opportunist. The person whose visions of success involve him using and discarding everybody who he can possibly, he does not see strawberry as anything but this sort of meal ticket that he can own groom and ultimately sell. And it's, you know, he's incredibly, he's not subtle about any of this kind of stuff. Like, he's very much just sort of odd, you know, on Front Street about all this when he talks to Lonnie about it, when he talks to Strawberry about it. And he's manipulative, but he's also too dumb to be cleverly manipulative. He's, his manipulations are all very obvious. And that's why ultimately Leandro and June have his number from the beginning.

Yes. And it's like he's also talking like he's talking up Hollywood like it's so great. And it's like the circumstances that like they live in. You know, Texas City isn't beautiful as shot by Sean Baker. But like, you know, Leandro and June are people who do actually in the context that we see them are taking care of their community. They effectively take on. on Mikey as a favor to Lexi, you know, and that's why, you know, they're part of kicking him out of town. If I'm going to cast my vote for anybody in this movie, it will be for Leondra. I will be electing her mayor of whatever town that is. She can get things done. She knows what's going on. She's, she has good reads on people. there's also the ongoing thing about how readily victimized or how readily people will victimize women in this movie in, you know, in the industry that Mikey is so, you know, proud of being a part of. there's the moment where he and Lonnie are out talking and you can see, you know, the sort of the surroundings of the factories and whatnot. And Lonnie just points out, it's like, oh, do you see that over there? That's the actual Texas killing fields. This, like, area where these, like, scores of, you know, dead women have been found over the years. And it's just this kind of passing

mention, but it's one of those things just like, oh, right, like, this is an incredibly dangerous world for women when there are people like Mikey. And I don't think this movie even needs to make the case that, like, Mikey could be capable of violence, because as we see in this movie, he's capable of violence. I think drawing that line to capable of murder is probably a little bit much, but it still feels like Mikey is part of this ecosystem that threatens to... that are that is threatening to women and young girls and and it doesn't take intelligence it doesn't take skill sure doesn't still be an incredible threat to everyone around you and like to kind of loop it back to you know sean baker's interests in terms of sex work and the type of empathy he tries to draw in his movie i think there's a confusion that there the empathy is cast towards mikey well i think

there is an understanding of who Mikey is, especially within the ecosystem that he talks about in his movies. I think the empathy is reserved towards strawberry. I think, you know, watching a narrative about grooming is obviously uncomfortable. And, you know, I don't think we should confuse that necessarily for an endorsement because I don't think this movie is endorsing anything. But it is asking us... You generally have to be brain dead to think. that the movie is endorsing what Mikey's doing in this movie. I mean, I've seen it from smart people.

Like, um, and I just think, you know, it's asking us how someone like her could get involved in a certain type of system. Or it's asking us to consider that and consider it empathetically, um, for someone like her who might willingly groomed or not, well, not groomed or not, but someone who would make certain choices that they could either be that they are manipulated into but also maybe are trying to escape from how someone how someone monstrous like Mikey especially if you don't see him as a monster on the opposite end of it could be very damaging or could also provide a certain appeal to someone and we're trying you know i think he's trying to make us empathize with

yes so that we can understand the mickeys of the world in real action to prevent them from I think that's the thing. I think that's the most important thing. I think a lot of people seem to, in their sort of middling or negative reactions to this movie, and there were a lot of really good reactions. It's not like this movie was like universally maligned, but I feel like even among a lot of the positive reactions there was hand-wringing, and I think the thing that I sort of felt is it sounded like a lot of people wanted this movie to be more obviously dark. and for Mikey to be a more obviously dark character. And to me, I think because he's so... And for the story to be structured in a moralizing way.

Because he's so outwardly non-threatening, because he's so hapless in a lot of ways, because he's easy and fun to laugh at in this movie, because Simon Rex plays him in a way that is so obviously buffoonish. Once again, I mean, again, who does this sound like? You know what I mean? somebody who it's very easy to make fun of.

And so sometimes you underestimate the threat of that person, right? So while all of that is, I think all of that is a much more interesting and insidious delivery system for somebody who ends up being a threat. And on the opposite side of that is the way that Strawberry is written where she is very much not this, like, outward, she's not outwardly somebody who feels like a victim, right? She is brash and she's confident. She, you know, she's the one who, like, proactively, like, puts her hand on his crotch behind the, you know, the donut store. In other, like, she's behaving very much like a teenager, which is probably too confident for their own good to, you know, not, really aware of the consequences of these actions.

So I'm what flippant in terms of the way that they feel like, you know, very forthright in their kind of romantic and sexual intentions, right? None of which is the same thing as precocious. Exactly. Which we see all the time with teenagers, which is a very different thing. None of this feels like, oh, well, she was like asking for it. No, she's behaving like a typical teenager does. And this movie sort of shows how, like, that behaving, just like anybody would, does then put you in some dangerous situations.

And it's not blaming her for them. I think she is not sort of behaving in this, because I think you'll see this in a lot of movies where you'll see, you'll see the younger character being very overly, aggressively, right? and you're just like, well, like, this person is, you know, so extra in the way that they are, it naturally sort of leads them down the path to these darker things. And then the audience is perhaps being prodded to be like, or that's the logic of the movie, right? Right, exactly. And then so in this movie, I think the logic of the movie is, you know, she's not some innocent, you know, flower.

She's not this like, you know, whatever. She's also not a vamp. You know what I mean? She's just the girl. She's the typical teenager. She's the girl at the donut shop. Not even really an interesting one. That's the other thing.

It's, I mean, it's all there when she plays the like, the slowed down Lana Del Rey style cover of buy, bye, bye, or whatever, where it's like, she seems to feel like. I mean, I think even calling it a Lana Del Rey style is complimenting it too much, but. Right, but that, but, well, watered down or whatever, I, you know. We don't need to get into the degree of a teenager on YouTube, just an average teenager on YouTube is the thing. And it's over, like she is very normal child. And she thinks it's much more interesting than it actually is. And she thinks it's, you know, it's deeper than it is. And again, she's just a dumb teen.

And I don't say dumb is even like a pejorative in that like she's a typical, she's a typical teen doing typical dumb. which to me all of this goes to define Mikey even more clearly as a predator like we should talk about you kind of only gave the endpoints of simon rex how dare you not mention that he was an mtbvj well that's the thing is he's an mtvj he's on um what was that wb show but then you know the mtvj thing is the most important thing that's certainly the first thing that i ever saw him in is he's this late 80 or late 90s MTV Vijay doing like not even like the prime

VJ slots. He's doing like 4 to 6 PM you know mid afternoon or whatever VJ stuff in an era before TRL happened and of course obviously like very cute. Imagine like you know

picture this version like he basically looks the same except like imagine him like 25 years younger, right? And you got it. And this is early. I think I definitely had like, maybe hadn't even gotten like my own computer yet. I think this is still in the era of like shared computer. And that's, you know, the diciest time to be a closeted homosexual in your family is when you have a shared computer with everybody. And so, um, Simon Rex, In the generation where we were told we could have our own AOL profile, but it would send every activity to our parents, and we would go to jail.

I still, it sounds, I still remember the first sort of handful of famous celebrities who I saw in various stages of undress because of the internet, right? And it's, for most of them, it's like, here's the scene in, oh, what was the movie, the movie where Helen Amirin and the older ladies, all strip is called Calendar Girls. But I think, but I think it was a movie called Calendar Girl with Jason Priestley, where you see Jason Priestley's butt. And so I remember that being like, oh, there's a movie where you can see Jason Priestley's butt. It was like the paparazzi photos of Brad Pitt and Gwyneth Paltrow on their vacation. That was on. And again, these were just like sites where they were just like, hey, come see these famous people naked. And I being 15 and having no moral compass in that direction whatsoever was just like great.

And one of them was absolutely CMTV's Simon Rex. and it was stills from these jerk-off videos that he had done. So, like, probably, I would imagine, one of the first sort of, like, famous penises I ever saw on the internet was Simon Rex's. So congratulations for that. Formative great generation. The thing about this as it relates to Red Rocket is also that in casting him, It, you know, helps with Sean Baker's grander thesis of demystifying and, de-scandalizing sex work, you know,

because, like, Simon Rex didn't do anything wrong by participating in a video where he massicated. No, God, no. But it's, like, and by nature of him being willing to talk about it in relation to making this movie, you know. De-stigmatizes it. But remember, this was from the era of where that was, in fact, a thing where like, oh, you know, somebody had topless photos that they took. Frenchie Davis was disqualified from American Idol for, you know, having this kind of a thing. I won't specify. But very recently, I had to fill out a very elaborate background check form. for a television show. And because they're a television show, it's nothing like... Were they like, were you ever naked on a website like Frenchie Davis? You would think that would be just one question.

That was spread out over like 10 questions. It was like, have you ever, you know, are there photos of you on the internet? Have you ever appeared on websites? Have you ever done porn professionally? Have you ever been a dancer? Have you ever worked at a strip club? Is this all a pass-fail system, too? Because even asking, I think, is just like, if they're not going to fire you for it and they just want to know for PR purposes so that they're not caught unawares, that's one thing. It's not for a job because I think they can't ask you these things if it were for a job. And it's not for anything legal. So you are not like under the penalties of perjury or whatever. All this is is, is. a television network wanting to get out ahead, to avoid the, you know, finding out information well after the fact. And it's...

Are you even obliquely allowed to talk about it, even this, like, this disguised? I mean, I imagine that, like, this is standard for a lot of different television shows. So, I guess... Okay. I won't get in trouble. No. Um, for talking about whatever millions of questions you had to be asked. Um, but the, wasn't the fucking, like, this is how fucked up we are. Like, wasn't Frenchie Davis also completely clothed? Not like that should matter, but they like, I dragged her out into the town square as if like she was doing anything and everything all over the internet. And wasn't she not? I'll say, I'll say this for as much. Much of a horny pervert as I was with male celebrities on the internet, I was very respectable female celebrities.

So I never investigated the Frenchie Davis thing beyond. Like, I had no idea. Well, no, because I thought that there was like a double standard specifically. I'm sure there was. I'm sure there was. Because wasn't it like, here we go, here we go. This is what this podcast wasn't like Antonella Barba taken down for like suggestive clothed pictures on the internet?

And people were like, yeah, this is. is about as bad as the photos of Frenchie Davis, and they, like, tried to derail her career for it. All right. If we're going to play the game of what's the, who's the most obscure American Idol contestant I can remember first and last name for, I'm going to answer that with Jessica Sierra, who had to go to rehab shortly after American Idol. Vanessa Olivares, who did do topless photos for PETA.

Carmen Rasmussen. They might not have been topless. But I think it was just like, I'm covering it with PETA message. Carmen Rasmussen, who, as far as I remember, had no scandal whatsoever except for... Carmen Rasmussen was in the top, like, five or something. That's not rare. Wasn't she? I don't think she made it that far.

She was, what, season three, season two? I don't think she made it that far. The thing is, I remember, I can go tit for tat with this with you. I can remember, I can remember names, too. All this to say, there are degrees of public shaming of, like, who gets them and who gets to freely talk about, you know, their passion these things. And there shouldn't be any shame at all. Exactly. If no one is being harmed and it's all through consenting adults, like.

I feel like, speaking of nudity, too, there's quite a bit of it with Mikey in this movie. Was there not, like, a trend story this, that? year um with with fake penises in movies with prosthetic penises and movies i don't think the trend story would have been a so would have been tacked on to this movie because i feel like this was the first right like i mean people talked about a few years before for vacation with chris hemsworth but we don't need to acknowledge that movie like well and also that was tv it's been like a recent thing with TV. But I also feel like it's more understood that like that kind of thing in a comedy

context is, is like to be expected. It's rare that you get like a Jason Siegel willing to like drop a towel and I don't think Jason Segal had a prosthetic. Well, whatever. No. And I think there was, I just remember there being like a trend where people were like like, this was happening a lot in, like, dramas or in quasi-sexual contexts, where people were like, wait a second.

Theo James, White Lotus. Sure. Right. Exactly. And it's one of those things where it's just like, on one level, you do get people who are being like, hey, you're, this is a lie, essentially, like, you're lying to us. And on another level, you're like, yeah, like, everything, like, it's a, it's a TV show. Like, it's a, the whole thing's a fantasy.

So, like, whatever. Just deal with it. Also, like, could you understand the back pain that those people would probably have, like, on a regular basis? Like, no, that's not real. But this is only an extension of the age-old question of the butt double, because remember, they're like, we used to live in a golden age of Hollywood butt doubles, which it felt like it was like the peak of it was like in the late 80s, right? Where, like, all of the A-listers would get these perfect butt models. to stand in when they would be like taking a shower. That was the one, I think friends had an episode of this where like Joey was the

butt double for a famous celebrity because like... Trust and believe we will be having the butt double conversation again next week on next week's episode in terms of this is maybe the death of the butt double. Fair. But it was always when like these A-list stars would be like just like taking a shower and you would just like, just gratuitous shot of a butt. And then we hit the like, never in the same shot as their face. But then we hit the 90s where authenticity was king. And so then Ewan McGregor and his ilk came around and was just like, I don't care. Show my penis. Like whatever. And it's

just, and it's everywhere. And there were authentic butts and authentic penises. And now we've come around on the other side of it. And now it's just like, why should I be showing my penis? I'm not getting paid enough to show my penis. You can give me a prosthetic where I don't have to be nude and I can like flatter myself in the process. Okay, like that's fine with me. And so now I feel like we are as far away as in many aspects. We are far from the days of the authenticity as King 90s. And we are very much now in the fake can be real era, right? Like, fake is realer than real. So this is all to say that when... Losing is the new winning. That when Mikey is running around Texas City with his thing flapping from thigh to thigh, that it is, it's a prosthetic at work.

again, all I'm seeing are back problems. Like, uh, and like, they do cut to it, like straight to it several times. Like, did you laugh in the first close-up?

How about in the third? They are. Yes. I also just feel like running in the nude in that way. It's not just, it's not just the penis that is a concern. But like,

it's the bare feet. Well, it's the bare feet, but it's also just like, unless you're like, balls have really like you know retracted to a point of to a point of safety like you're just going to be like

there's you're just going to be smackin them in ways that you don't want to be smacking them Joseph Reed in I don't think that's happening in the Texas heat um Texas heat's probably worse for it than the cold in the cold at least you know your balls are probably halfway up there's not oh my God we're

getting, it's very anatomical here on this had Oscar buzz this week, but no, that's what warm weather does. Yeah, right. So, like, all I'm saying is he's showing up wherever he shows up just bruised and battered in a way that he often is. Lots of opportunity for injury. Yes, yes, I'm saying. Just this is why people don't go jogging naked. One of the many reasons why people don't go jogging. There's like those hippie rums where it's like, let's do bike riding for naked. or, like, you know, people do it. That's true. That's true.

You don't know about my Thursday nights. Sorry, sorry to malign your nude running club, Chris. I'm in no running club of any sort. All right. Anyway, anyway, anyway. The prosthetic penis. Not even not really made much of a dent in terms of conversation around this movie. So in terms of this movie as a downshift

from the Florida Project. I understand where there were people who just didn't latch onto it. There were people who had maybe moral qualms about it. But I do feel like it's because I don't think this movie is qualitatively or temperamentally that different from either Tangerine or the Florida Project. One of the great things about Sean Baker is you can sort of look at those three movies together and feel like there is a through line. not just donut shops, but it's also, by the way, there's a donut shop locally here that

every time I pass it, I'm like, that is a Sean Baker style donut shop, where it's just like, it's a standalone. It's not like part of a strip plaza. It's like its own little like thing on its own corner at a building that you think was probably at one point a gas station. And it's just like, oh, somebody in there is living a life of quiet desperation that is just waiting to be turned into a Sean Baker movie. But I think one of the things that's interesting about the way that Red Rocket is received as opposed to the Florida Project is, I think in the Florida Project, it's a lot easier to sort of get behind a project where your main characters are a little girl and a very nice

man who's just trying to do his best. Do you know what I mean? Whereas I think Red Rocket is really like... really needs you to invest in an absolutely a moral-centered character, and the movie is not interested in giving you a break from him for one second. And I guess I'm not surprised that it didn't draw as much acclaim and as much awards attention, even though, in my opinion, it very well could have and should have. well the the critical cause of choice like the thing that everybody was rallying around to get it as far as it could go this year was drive my car and like to me I'm not I mean like yes we can say we can we can champion multiple things but like everybody was working on getting people to I mean drive my car made more money than this too oh yeah like not not a given but again people weren't going to see indie movies again like it took a

while for the indie, you know, as much as it even has, like for the indie box office to rebound. I will say I'm comfortable enough now three years after the fact to say that I both liked Red Rocket so much better than drive my car and I'm willing to champion Red Rocket as a better movie than drive my car and leave it at that. I will disagree strongly with you. I know. Most people will. And that's... fine by me. That's okay. We want you to have your own stumping points. I spent a while trying to convince myself that I like to drive my car better than I did. And that effort is now finished. That project is now ended. And it has ended in defeat for me. So I will still

push evil does not exist on you. I'm going to watch evil does not exist. I am. Although what was it at Toronto last year where I like decided? It sure was. It was the second to last thing I saw. And I feel like I was dissuaded from seeing it by something that I had read or somebody who was like, eh, it's not that good. I would not argue it was conveniently scheduled. I kind of had to derail my schedule to see it. I'm still happy of that I did.

Always a tricky proposition to derail your schedule to see anything. But it puts a lot of pressure. Well, it was just like, maybe not, derail is not the right word, but like reverse engineered my schedule. that I could see it. Yeah. Anyway, I was not alone in appreciating this. Simon Rex did win the Best Actor Prize from the Los Angeles Film Critics Association

of all places. So that was good. So, all right, this is where we can maybe dig into the actor conversation, the best actor conversation. So this was a year that, like, nobody talks about as a category anymore because all anybody remembers is that it ended with Will Smith slapping Chris Rock on stage. But I think this was a year that it didn't feel like there were a ton of realistic options. Again, this sort of goes back to my 2021 was still somewhat of a soft drought with movies in general and with

awards in general. I think you see this with the absolute like pulling people's teeth for no reason to get, you know, credit being bestowed to Benedict Cumberbatch for that performance. For whatever reason, everybody felt like they were pulling teeth to be like, he is incredible in this movie. And I wouldn't say, okay, maybe I wouldn't say it was begrudging, but, like, he was never really a contender for best actor, and it feels like because, well, people just didn't want to, which is wild. Which is too bad, because I think it's by far the most...

Of the five nominated performances, it's by far the most impressive. So your nominees that year, Will Smith wins and wins basically everything. It was one of those things. As soon as that movie dropped, I think everybody sort of realized the coronation that this was going to be for King Richard. Benedict Cumberbatch for The Power of the Dog, Denzel Washington for the tragedy of Macbeth. I won't go so far as to say, as Denzel is bad, because Denzel's not bad in that movie. Denzel's good in that movie. I just don't think that movie quite raised itself to the level of needing to be nominated for its acting performances.

That's not Catherine Hunter. Because I think, you're right. Catherine Hunter is a true. Everything that's not Catherine Hunter in that movie is like, this should be maybe a few notches better than it is. So why isn't it? Yeah, I agree. One who I actually loved, and I think I was so glad we got nominated, was Andrew Garfield for a tick, Boom, who I think was given such a difficult task.

Both Lynn Manuel Miranda and Andrew Garfield exceeded, so far exceeded my expectations and fears for what, you know, a Tick, tick boom movie would have been. So good for him. And then the, I don't, I mean, it couldn't, it wasn't a surprise nomination because he had been nominated for SAG and the Golden Globes and the M4Gs. But Javier Bardem for being the Ricardo's, which feels like, A, we didn't have any, we didn't have a better idea. I mean, a movie star that the Academy loves in a movie that they... And I'm an apologist.

I'm an apologist for being the Ricardos. And even I'm like, Bardem sort of feels like a... This on the morning that Aaron Sorkin has said that the Democratic Party should elect... To be fair. Democratic Party should pick Mitt Romney for its party ticket. Are you back on cocaine, sir? After, I read the whole thing. First of all, it's not a very long op-ed. I don't, I can't imagine how it could be. Reading the op- Because he wrote it in five seconds having the thought and not questioning it. I'm like, you barely believe in this. Because half the things just talk about like, well, you probably wouldn't do anything good for Democrats. And mostly this is like, I wrote a wish fulfillment series. And this is how it would have been done in a wish fulfillment series. But I'm just like, Aaron, this is why it is so hard to defend you as a general fan of your work with a handful of exceptions.

It's so, this shit, stop it. Just stop. Stop. It's beyond parody. I at this point am starting to believe, no, he likes making a squirm. He likes making us freak out over the minorist thing. I would believe it. He knows what his reputation is.

now, and now he's leaning into it. I would believe it. Anyway, other contenders in 2021, and once I start reading these off, you're going to understand why this five solidified very quickly. Simon Rex was one of them. He wins Los Angeles film critics. Leonardo DiCaprio for Don't Look Up is a Golden Globe nominee and a Bafton nominee. Nicholas Cage for Pig is a Critics Choice nominee. Peter Dinklage for Cyrano is a Critics Choice Golden Globe and M4G nominee. Hittatoshi Nishijima for Drive My Car wins the National Society of Film Critics Award.

Mahershla Ali for a movie called Swan Song got Golden Globe and BAFTA nominations, which I totally forgot that he had got both of those. Cooper Hoffman and Anthony Ramos, Cooper Hoffman for Lickrish Pizza, Anthony Ramos for In The Heights, both got Golden Globes musical or comedy nominations, but neither one of them were really significant. in the hunt. I guess if I'm picking a sixth place, it's maybe Peter Dinklage. It's maybe DiCaprio. But, like, I think that, like... I would say it's probably DeCaprio, Best Picture nominee. I guess. But, like... Netflix contender. Distant. Distant. Distant sixth place. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Though, of all those names you listed, much respect to Benedict Cumberbatch, who I think is a great performance, should have been the winner of this category, you could maybe take any assortment of those five names that you just listed, including Simon Rex in there, and come up with a better best actor lineup, like Nicholas Cage and Pig. Nicholas Cage is great in Pig.

I absolutely would have nominated him. So good. I actually don't have a problem with Leo and don't look up. a movie that I hated, but I actually thought he was pretty good in, doing something he normally doesn't do, which I'm sure people will think I mean yell, but, I mean, I think he's actually funny in that movie. All of this to not say the little tiny child from Belfast. Ha ha ha ha ha, ha. What was his name? He was also in the Poirot movie, the most recent Poirot. Jude Hill.

Jude Hill, right. Okay, so my best actor, five that year. Hated Belfast like that little kid. See, I thought Belfast was good, and I did not care for that little kid. All right, I had, I capped Benedict Cumberbatch for Power of the Dog. I capped Andrew Garfield for Tick, boom. I did, in fact, have Nicholas Cage for Pig. I, of course, Simon Rex is my winner for Red Rocket, which I'm not surprised by. And then my fifth nominee, I forgot that I, for at least when I did this on the Blankies.

And I do kind of stand up for it, if only because I think the competition is generally. really weak this year. I had Eric Andre for a bad trip, and I do stand by that. I remember you doing that. Eric Andre is incredible in that. If you want me to be a little bit more serious about it, Adam Driver and Annette would have worked. Waukeen Phoenix

in Come On, Come On, would have worked Vincent Linden in Teuton. I'm pretty sure my five would have been Vincent Lundon, Adam Driver, Benaddeke Cumberbatch, Hittitoshi Nishuima, and Nicholas Cage. That would be the five I would give right it's a good five it's a good five it's a good five um god my five my four winners that year

i was on one but kind of in a good way simon rex for red rocket uh uh yesna de jureichit oh wow that performance is just like wow tremendous incredible tremendous um mike feist for west side story i was a real one even Beckman. And then Polly Draper for Shiva Baby. And I fucking stand by that one too. Because she fucking rules in that movie. I think my winner is Vincent Lindon.

I mean, he's great in that movie. Sticking a whole bunch of needles in his booty, beefy cabooos. Speaking of butts on Phil. Exactly. Exactly. All right. Wait, so going back to Simon Rex.

He also wins the Independent Spirit Award that year for Best Male Lead, which, again, go back to the Indy Spirit Awards in 2021, and you will really see that, like, indie film had not returned to the theaters yet. So we kind of had no idea of how to organize our thoughts for something like the Independent Spirit Awards. His competition that year is Clifton Collins, Jr. from Jockey, a movie. that only really played Sundance. I know it opened theatrically and whatever. He's very good in it,

but I was always surprised when people would sort of like name 20 people who were up for best actor and he would be in the mix. And I'm like, I don't see how that's possible, but okay. Frankie Faison

for the killing of Kenneth Chamberlain, who was also nominated at the Gothams that year. I did not see that movie. Udo Kier for swan song. A different swan song. The Gay Swan Song. A different swan song than the Maharshal Ali. Yeah, the pandemic did not give us a lot of movies. It did give us two swan songs. Two Swan songs. And then Michael Grey Eyes for a movie called Wild

Indian that played Sundance that year that I did not see, but I remember it got great reviews. Michael Gray Eyes is fantastic in that. I was even more impressed by supporting actor nominee at the Indy Spirits Chaskey Spencer. Very good. Anyway, not to slight any of those nominees at all, but it does feel like this was a, like, a deeper dive for nominees for the Indy Spirit Awards than has been the case since, you know what I mean, then in many, many recent years. Not a problem, though. I kind of like that.

Sure. I don't know. Maybe I'm a hypocrite because I also complain when the Independent Spirit Awards get too Oscarsy. I am very much a middle-class kind of a person where I do feel like the Indy Spirit Awards should occupy some middle range between like the movies that nobody's heard of and then the movies that

too many people have heard of. I'm after a Goldilocks-esque middle strata where it's like... I appreciate when the movies nobody has heard of show up in the indie spirit nominations if not just because I'm like I either didn't see this

and need to catch up to it or I'm happy to know that this exists and I will seek it out but I think like... I want them mixed in I want them sprinkled in with you know Nicholas Cage and Pig is all I'm saying

yeah Nicholas Cage and Pig not nominated interesting I know I know I know let's see red rocket shows up on the national board of review top 10 that year which good good for that especially because this is a nBR list that feels very very close closer than most i think to what ends up being the oscar list right licorice pizza wins their best picture belfast is a nominee don't look up dune king rich Nightmare Alley, West Side Story. Then the tragedy of Macbeth is a nominee, and that, like, gets a whole bunch of nominations, and I would say comes pretty close to Best Picture at the Oscars.

And then it's farthest to field one besides Red Rocket, is the last duel. Which I shouldn't be far afield is the weird thing. It's better than, like, half of the nominees for Best Picture at the Oscars that year, at least. Are we going to do the last duel this year? Should we do the last duel for Gladiator? Sure. do we do it in the in yeah in in in favor of gladi a tour yes yeah why not it's the ridley scott movie that i like out of the last 10 years right i like other i like all the money in

the world you do and you also like the counselor counselor baby every time i see that title i think of i think of denierro and cape fear counselor would not be inappropriate for that movie. True, true. Where was, did that get mentioned recently? Something I cannot remember. Someone referenced Cameron Diaz's accents. You know, who definitely would have been on my ballot that year,

Ben Affleck in the last duel. You know how much I am resistant to the propping up of Ben Affleck, just because we think it's funny. It's a great performance, though. He's very good in that movie. He's very good in that movie. You know who also is great in that movie? Everybody.

But I was going to say, Adam Driver. Adam Driver, usually good. And Matt Damon's really good in that movie. Everybody's getting that movie. All right. Three nominations at the Gotham Awards also. So, Simon,

is nominated for best lead performance along with Joaquin Phoenix for come on, come on, Tessa Thompson for passing, Oscar Isaac for the card counter. Did you see the card counter? Yes, it's a car counter. Taylor Page for Zola. I know you are a fan of Zola. She was on my best actor's spout.

I'm more of a fan of her performance than I would say the movie. The movie has its hits and misses, but I think that's an incredible performance. I am a fan of... Coleman Domingo and Riley Keough in that movie. I agree with you that that movie has its hits and misses. But Coleman Domingo and Riley Keogne rules in that movie. Yes. Brittany S. Hall for Test Pattern, also a Gotham nominee, Michael Grayeyes, as we mentioned, for Wild Indian.

Lily Taylor for a movie called Paper Spiders. And then the two winners were Frankie Faison aforementioned the killing of Kenneth Chamberlain and Olivia Coleman for the lost daughter. See, this is the thing I was going to mention is. The Lost Daughter sort of swept the Indy Spirit Awards that year. The Lost Daughter wins a bunch of Gotham Awards. I think that was the movie that it was like the one classic indie, sort of like, you know, the kinds of indie movies that awards bodies had become sort of accustomed to awarding. And I also think it was pretty great.

So I was glad that, that, you know, won as many. awards as it did that year. I'm still kind of surprised that Maggie Gyllenhaal did not get a best director nomination that year at the Oscars. I'm more so surprised she didn't win that screenplay Oscar,

but she wasn't nominated. Oh, no, it was adapted. That's right. She was never going to win that. Never mind. Yeah. I do think that if Olivia Coleman didn't have an Oscar, I think it would have been an open and shut case all season because it took forever for Chastain

to kind of Tie the bow to be the frontrunner? I was a chastain doubter until the second that her name was read. And she had won Golden Globe and SAG? Less we forget, there was, like, the Penelope Cruz train was gaining steam until the very last minute.

A lot of people were predicting Penelope Cruz, giving the performance of her career at one of the Lodovar's best movies. IMO. Don't get me on. I predicted her, in fact. But, like, for most of that season, I think I had briefly was predicting Kidman, but for most of that season, I was predicting Olivia Coleman was going to win. And then at the very last second, I jumped off and I jumped on to Penelope Cruz.

And I just had no faith in that Jessica Chastain performance to win. No shade against Jessica. Anyway. I wouldn't put her fifth. I would maybe put her third for me personally, third through fifth being somewhat close. And I don't want to say who I would put fit That kind of breaks my heart Huh

You didn't like being the Ricardo's at all So that I think Nicole is good in what she is tasked to do My fifth would be Kristen Stewart I don't love I thought Spencer was fine I thought she was mostly fine in it And I love Kristen Stewart

And I was like Kristen Stewart Oscar Here we go I'm so excited And then I saw the movie And I was like I'll say this Because I agree with you On basically all of

those points. I'm still glad that she got nominated. A, because it broke the seal on her getting an Oscar nomination. And B, may never happen. I think it's just an interesting nomination. Yeah, if you're betting against Angelina Jolie being nominated for the Maria Callis movie this year, your money is not well placed. All right. What else do we want to get into before we get into the IMDB game? Let me go through. I did write down a lot of notes for this. My last note on best actor would be if Pig was more of a theatrical release and had, you know, had a chance at a theatrical life in different circumstances. Yeah.

I think we would have looked at a best actor nominee for Nicholas Cage because that movie actually was huge on Hulu. As somebody who saw that movie in a theater, it played really well in a theater, too. Like the scene where he dresses down that chef in that one's, like, it's like, it. those scenes like that really, really play very well with an audience. What a good movie that was. What's that director doing?

The Quiet Place prequel. Oh, well. Yeah. There we go. Disappointing. Yeah. Okay. Thoughts on bye-bye-bye. Were my problems with the Quiet Place sequel.

Well, sorry. I haven't seen the Quiet Place sequel yet. One performance I think we should mention before we move along to the IMDB game. I think Brie Elrod is incredible in this movie

and got no love all season. I think she's really, really good. I know. I do too. I think she's really, really fantastic. Sort of similar to, although not quite because what's her name from Florida Project? I think got a lot more attention. Yes.

But a similar kind of lived in, you know what I mean? And part of it is that I've never seen her in anything else, at least that I can recall. So it feels very, it's a lot easier to sort of, you know, not have any other associations with her. But I think she's great.

I think she's also, like, unexpectedly funny in a lot of moments. I think that push-in at the end where she calls him suitcase pimp is really good and really effective. She has to play also on top of being funny. She has to play the type of person who can see through Mikey, but has to, but like we believe how she would relent to Mikey too, which I don't think is easy. She also is sort of resigned to the fact that there are certain things that he can bring into her life that will benefit her for the moment. Like he can bring some money into the house.

He can do some of the yard work. he can, you know, she can have sex with him. You know what I mean? Like those kind of, just like that's... Until it becomes too much to bear. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

And she knows that at some point it's going to get to that point because she's been through this before. And you can see that on her face too. You can see that where she's just like, yeah, like, I'm doing this again. I guess we're just signing up for this roller coaster one more time. And at some point... For as long as it's sustainable, which is a... Exactly what the Republican Party does.

Uh-huh. Isn't this fun? There's a scene in the movie where Mikey is describing the fast and the furious porn parody that he did and how great it was. And he talks about how he played the Paul Walker character. And then Paul Walker died in real life. How selfish it was of Paul Walker to die. Essentially, yes, and how much it fucked up his career and his prospects. that Paul Walker died because now he couldn't be in any more Fast and Furious porn parodies.

It's just, it's, again, I think the logic of porn wouldn't be like they would have Mikey show up as a ghost so someone could fuck a ghost. There's a scene late in the movie where June and June's brother and their third wheel goon sort of show up to rough up Mikey. And June is watching as like Mikey and Lexi are throwing insults at, each other and Lexi's sort of taunting him and he's, you know, screaming back at her and Lil is getting up in it. And June sort of steps back and is just like, y'all don't get tired of this shit. And like that's kind of the summation of that relationship too, where it's just like, aren't you just isn't this exhausting to have to deal with this? Even when you're like getting one up on him, even when you are, you know, essentially just like getting the upper

hand and kicking him out. And it's, I think it takes a lot of the air out of this sort of triumph of, you know, Lexi and Lil getting one over on Mikey, where it's just sort of like, that's a lot of effort just to like, you know, when you could have just like not let this man back into your life to begin with. And, you know, lessons learned. Lessons learned. I do like the fact that this movie does not put halos on anybody for as much as like, it's very, very comfortable making Mikey the worst. But I think it's very realistic in the way that, like, everybody sort of in his orbit is a real person and not just, you know, a victim of his narcissism. I mean, like, the Republican Party. I'm just as I'm saying this is, again, I think this is a movie that is very,

applicable and descriptive. And I get what you're saying about, like, at a couple of moments, it does get heavy-handed and that, like, there's actually Trump on the television. But, like, but it's serviceable because, like, you do have, it can't just be about this guy. It has to be about a system of guys and the way that they get away with this type of behavior and how they weaponize their own charisma. And I think to, I said that I didn't want to get into. the politics, Sean Baker's personal politics, mostly because I don't think Sean Baker has gone, has, you know, articulated himself enough at length to be able to extrapolate much, you know, much concretely. I think we're going on a lot of like brief statements and

tweets and whatever. And I think Sean Baker has made an effort to be understanding towards people, rank and file, people. I think you watch a movie like Red Rocket. It's hard for me to watch a movie like Red Rocket and feel like Sean Baker doesn't get it about somebody like Trump. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think to call Sean Baker like CryptoMaga, which I've seen, you know, thrown around towards him,

I think is, it's hard to reconcile that with what he's put out in his films, particularly this one. I kind of more so even meant that there is a thread of, I think, smart people who actually find his work more condescending than empathetic. And like that's just totally your mileage may vary. I can see how people would feel that in certain ways. I could see how someone would maybe even think that about strawberry in this movie. But I don't.

always see it that way. This was more of an accusation that was thrown at something like the Florida project than this movie. But I think I can see what the intention is and I think he kind of pulls off what he's intending in that movie. I think so too. I think a lot of people see condescension. I find curiosity and I find empathy. And I think those two things together to me are an antidote towards condescension. I think... And it's maybe in the same, you know, ballpark that, like, Chloe Jow's work is, you know, where it's like she makes films that are not, you know, she is not in those communities she goes in, but she's going and discovering them and through that finding a story.

I often find myself very sympathetic to the idea that we can't limit storytellers, we can't limit stories to only being told by the people who, uh, exist at the center of. of them. Do you know what I mean? That we have to make space for people telling stories from, you know, outside observances, from, you know, that there are people that is, we don't have to, you know... Or that there can be nuance in doing so, you know, that it's... Right. We have to at least allow that as a valid form of, I think, to dismiss that kind of thing out of hand, I think, unnecessarily limits the kind of art we can get. And... That's sort of how I feel about that. Unless you have anything else, can we be very uncharacteristic and discuss the ending last? Oh my God, yeah, that's true. Because it's maybe one of my hold-ups with this movie in that it feels so demonstrably like you can interpret this however you want, but doesn't have its own perspective.

Like, I do maybe need some kind of button put on this movie in terms of, is this a fantasy that he, makes it to Strawberry's house, and, like, are we supposed to be invited? Is he regretting or thinking about any of his choice? It's clearly heightened in a way that what we're watching is not entirely reality. Her house all of a sudden is styled like a cupcake. Right. Or it's styled like the motel in the Florida Project, actually, right? The sort of like Magic Kingdom.

Whereas, like, the Florida Project has this intentional to me. grand fantasy final moment that kind of says everything right yes i don't feel like this final moment says much of anything or it's like i at least struggle to get what even the tonal balance is it is trying to strike and i hate to be so blunt and basic as to say it feels like the movie just ends but i don't really think there's as much intention to the ending as there's as there is is the rest of this movie. And it's also kind of that it's kind of painted in a corner because I think what Sean Baker is ultimately doing in the arc of the story is showing that like anti-climax is a huge part of the, is not a bug. It is a feature for someone like Mikey.

I think watching it this time around, the fact that you get the, um, by, bye, bye running backwards on the soundtrack of it all feels like it's sort of directing you in this sense of we've now ended where it began, where he's once again on the, you know, on the lawn of a woman who he needs to, you know, sort of be his meal ticket for a while, right? It's the suitcase pimp thing. And that to me feels pretty obvious, right? Well, it's like the cyclical part of it. And I get that. And maybe it's less I don't get it than I don't like it. Because, like, yeah, I get that it's a cyclical type of thing, but I feel like we already knew it was a cyclical journey, like, when it begins. Right. I think the fact that it ends before, maybe it's, I don't think you're necessarily wrong and that maybe you want a little bit more out of it. But I wonder if maybe that it ends on this note of leaving the audience with that sort of sick thing. feeling in their stomach, like, oh, God, don't go with him. Oh, God, I hope she doesn't answer that door. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, that kind of a thing. And I think this is a movie that plays

with the notions of how likable Mikey is. I think, because for as much as obviously, I think you reacted in this very sort of like, this is revolting. I don't want to watch a person like this. I think there are a lot of people who will watch this movie and find Mikey so entertaining that they're willing to sort of like write him get out of jail free card for a lot of that behavior. And I think that's why people like that get away with a lot of things in their lives. And I think that button that the movie leaves us on is after everything we've seen

in this movie, after the grooming of this girl gets very explicit, after his sort of moral bankruptcy with Lonnie gets exposed after he keeps, you know, after we see him for the, you know, opportunistic leech that he is, I think you get to that last part of the movie. and I think maybe the point is this feeling that you are left with, that you are, you know, very much not rooting for him to succeed in a way that you might have been two hours ago, in a way that two hours ago you might have been hoping that he could, you know, get her to let him into the house because he's our protagonist and we're sort of, you know, we're rooting for him. And he's this, you know, charming doofus. and now I think that charm has gone away. I don't know. I guess I'm already, maybe I just don't like the ending because, yes, I can see, I get that like we're, you know, that pit of the stomach feeling leading up to we know we're at the end of the movie and we want a last ditch effort for something to change to like rescue the situation. I guess I just don't think it's leaving me with anything I don't get. in like the first five minutes of the movie.

Sure, sure. I understand that. I don't necessarily feel like the ending is my favorite part of it, but I think I was sufficiently charmed and impressed by the rest of the movie, that I didn't need it to, that the fact that it doesn't end on this like blockbuster note is still fine for me. Complicated movie. Yeah, I mean, I think. Fun to talk about a complicated movie.

movie. I think ultimately you and I just appreciate this movie at very different levels. I think I'm definitely much more in this movie's corner solidly in his movie's corner than you are. I don't feel like I'm not in its corner. I mean because I do think I acknowledge a lot of its merits. It's just it's not and I'm not somebody that I'm like well that's unpleasant so I don't want to deal

with this. No, but I think you can acknowledge that I like this movie. But there is something about this movie that I'm I'm like, well, this is just... I like it a lot more than you like it, and I think that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Should we move on to the IMDB game? Yeah, why don't you explain? Every week, we end our episodes with the IMDB game,

where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. That's not enough. it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. Free-for-all-of-hins.

All right, Chris, are you going to quiz me first, or am I going to quiz you first? I would like to be quizzed first today. Okay, so one of the earlier feature films that I ever remember seeing Simon Rex in after he made the transition from MTV Vijay to a TV person, I think he was on Jack and Jill, maybe. I think he was like the friend in Jack and Jill. But he was in Scary Movies 3 and 4. And Scary Movie 3 in particular, he plays the Joaquin Phoenix analog in the signs parody to Charlie Sheen's Mel Gibson, interestingly enough.

So I'm going to give you Charlie Sheen's Mel Gibson. his one television show and three films. Over 300 episodes, and I think this is the second time this is happening. I also pulled Charlie's... No! I know. It's too good to be true. I should have figured you could have pulled this and had a backup, but...

Oh, all right. Give me a second to find somebody else. It's a really good known for. We should say it to the listeners, because it's just like this would have been real fun. Yeah, we'll save it for a guest. We'll give it to a guest. Oh, but we can't give it to our next guest. That would be too mean.

Why? I think there are guests who could get it. Okay. All right. I got one. Okay. Do you still want to go first? Well, I pulled mine up faster, so I guess I should make you go first in this instance.

Okay. Someone we've done before, but not in a while, so I'm imagining that this has changed. the aforementioned Mr. Willam Defoe. Okay, all right. Who I just saw again in last night in Kinds of Kindness for the second time. And my first watch was like, it's kind of weird that Defoe is the one who doesn't get,

who's like the most left behind in a Lanthamos movie. And I don't know if I think quite that. I don't think he's that much pushed aside, but I do think he has a fun performance in the movie. He's the hottest one in the movie. I stand by that. That's like, I'm rubbing off on you. Hot Willem Defoe.

I'm rubbing off on you. Jesse Clemens is the hottest one in that movie. Jesse Clemens is... I like provoking you in denying Jesse Plumns being the hottest. Yeah, but Willem DeFoe is the hottest person in the movie. Is it a very crisp-file point of view that you're espousing? Yeah, well, funny that you're not taking it. So I guess I will.

Um, all right. So... The great. The great, Willem de Foe. No Oscar wins, but four nominations. But does he show up for any of them in this? I wonder. That's...

I think the Florida Project is maybe one of them. The Florida Project is correct. Okay. Sean Baker's The Florida Project. Spider-Man? Spider-Man, correct. See, Spider-Man feels like the easiest to kind of forget in a way because we don't really talk about him being Green Goblin anymore. I mean, maybe some people do, but I don't think this is, when we talk about Willem Defoe, we don't talk about that, really.

I think that's right. There's so much more talk about. Even though he played that character in like four separate movies. And he's good in it. He's good in it. He's very good in it. I almost was going to guess Spider-Man, No Way Home, but the way you were discussing that makes has sort of dissuaded me.

Is platoon... Very rare that multiple of the same franchise shows up in a known four. I know. Platoon. Platoon is incorrect. Okay. So I get years. The years are 2018 and 2019.

Is 2018 at Eternity's Gate? It is at Eternity's Gate. That's demented. That's so demented. No business. No business being in his known for. I just love how we as a community reject at Eternity's Gate, period. Entirely.

Entirely. All right. What's the other year? 2019. Oh, you're going to be so mad. The lighthouse? The lighthouse. Wow.

Yankin and farting his way to a wonderful comedic performance. Yeah. Good for him. Good for him. All right. For you, I stuck with scary movie because I'm stubborn. Great. One of the other notable things about that signs parody is Cameron Mannheim as the Cherry Jones sheriff character who every time they cut back to her, her hat just gets bigger and bigger and bigger, which I thought of when I made that tweet about long legs about how every time they cut to a different scene, that portrait of. Bill Clinton just gets like 20% bigger every time they cut back to it. I thought you were going to say long legs's cheekbones just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. He just gets more and more like Vicky Gungvelson. No, the more, okay, talk to Tara Arianna because she also has mentioned the Vicki

Gunwelson thing about long legs. It's Vicki Gunfelson, it's Mickey Rourke, and it's Michael Jackson. That's what it is. Michael Jackson was definitely the thing that I thought of, but Mickey Rourke is an interesting one. But, yeah, you and Tara can high-five over the Vicky Gunblsen thing. No, that movie, every single time I saw Bill Clinton's portrait in that, I'm like, what is this saying about the Clinton era? I'm like, what's going on? I have thoughts and opinions.

Anyway. It's getting bigger because Oz Perkins is like, did you get it? No, I got it, Oz. But did you get it? I got it, Oz. But did you get it? No, I think there's something else going on. preference is doing

whatever By the way This is said in the 90s Cameron Mannheim Yeah Real evil of you to Just pick this on a whim How much television

Oh one television Sorry one television Like I can remember her television show It's like touched by an angel But not Is it ER No it's not ER What the hell is her TV show

Is it like chasing Amy? It's not chasing Amy. All right, you get years. Your years are... I'm getting years just from TV. 1998, 2003, 2005, and then the TV show is 1997 through 2004. 97 to 2004. She has an Emmy.

I mean, I'm right about the era. Yeah. Is one of these an unfinished life... It is an unfinished life. Life. I thought I was going to have to... Like, Episode 7 of this had Oscar Buzz and Unfinished Life. The problem is I don't remember these movies that she's in, so this is going to take a minute.

Unfinished Life is 2005. Okay, so it's the newest one. There's a 98, a 2002. And then the TV show was... 97 through 04. It's, did I say chasing Amy instead of judging Amy? Yeah, but it's neither. It's neither.

It's not like news radio. I'm just thinking of Kathy Griffin things. You can tell I didn't watch the show. Yeah, you definitely know. If you had watched the show, you'd know. It's a drama. It's a drama. That is not ER.

It's a drama from one of the more prolific TV creator types of that era. David E. Kelly. Yes. What's the other David E. Kelly? Was it Crossing, Jordan? No. I know. I know who's exactly the maddest at me right now, and it's going to be Christina Tucker.

What are the major genres of network TV shows in this? Hospitals. Yeah, but what's another one? There are three types of TV shows. News stations. No, there are three types of TV dramas, especially in that era. What are they? Hospitals.

Yes. Families. No. Three types of, like, professions. Three types of, like, things that, like... Hospitals, cops, and judges. Lawyers, yes. The practice.

There you go. You got it. All right. I didn't want to practice. No, I, obviously. All right, your two other ones are 98 and 03. 98.03. Did we talk about the O3 movie in the O3 miniseries?

No. We've talked about it. Is it an ensemble movie? Yes. Okay. So she does ensemble movies. 98's not practical magic, is it, right? She's not, not, no, I didn't think so.

No. Spiritually, it makes sense. O3 ensemble movie, it's not Cold Mountain. No. Very much not Cold Mountain. Oh, so, like, tonally, it's a very different movie than Cold Mountain. Yes. Ensemble comedy.

Mm-hmm. Ensemble comedy for adults or college people? College people, more so than adults. In 03. It's not scary movie three or four. It is scary movie three. Fuck you. Fuck you.

Oh, oh, now we think that's dirty pool. I see. No, no. It's not dirty pool because I was guessing things like crossing Jordan for the practice. All right, 1998. Okay, 98. This is definitely a comedy. This is like a studio comedy.

It's a comedy. It's not a studio comedy. Oh, okay. You are going to be so furious. Oh, because it's a movie I love. Yes. Okay, it's an independent comedy for girls and gays. You not only love this movie, but like it's one of those movies that,

not everybody loves and you love it. So it's one of those like badge of honor like I'm one of the people She's got to be buried in this thing because it's not coming to me. What's a like... Is she like 12th build?

Yeah, but it's one of those movies where even the 12th build person gets memorable stuff to do. Yeah. What's the like... In 98. Like famously hard to like, hard to like, hard to watch. comedy oh it's happiness yes yeah she's like 27th but but am i wrong in that like everybody gets a little

moment in that movie yeah yeah yeah everybody gets a yeah i do love this movie yes i'm saying all right okay she is really funny this is what i'm saying this is what i'm saying this is what i'm saying listener just go pre-order your criterion i'll apologize later if you're like what the yeah oh god after like we just talk about this movie that's all about about like, I feel a little icky about this movie. This movie makes me uncomfortable. And I'm like, I love happiness. Happiness is great.

Rent before you buy with happiness. Just make sure. Make sure you know what you're getting into. All right. That's our episode. If you want more of this at Oscar Buzz, you can check on the Tumblr. I just wouldn't have ever guessed that that would be on there for her. And yet.

And indeed it was. That clip came by, came across my notice again this week after I hadn't seen it in a while and it just as it's as funny as it ever did. It's because it's right in your brain for two months. Because not only and indeed it was, it's

the parts that lead up to it. It's the village. The fuck is that. Sounds crazy. That sounds crazy. And I think it was somebody being like somebody watching M. Night Shyamalan's mid-Ottes

movie output The Village. Me reading Bobby Fingers Four Squares. The Village. What the fuck is that? What the fuck is that? Sounds crazy. All right. If you want more this at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr. Indeed.

You can check out the Tumblr at thishead oscarbuzz.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore Buzz. Our Instagram at ThisHad Oscar Buzz and our Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find you? Twitter and Letterboxed at Chris V-File. That's F-E-I-L. I am on Twitter, letterboxed, whatever socials, at Joe Reed, read-spelled, R-E-I-D.

We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork and Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mievous for their technical guidance. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So when you are done with your evening nude jogging, write something nice about us and put it on the internet. Thank you. That is all for this week, but you hope you'll be back next week for more buzz.