This Had Oscar Buzz - 304 – American Psycho

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

Time to get controversh with with one of the most argued about films of the century, 2000’s American Psycho. Based on Bret Easton Ellis’ lightning rod novel, the film passed through multiple directors before landing in the inspired hands of Mary Harron. The independent director struck the right satirical note on Ellis’ difficult blend of consumerism … Continue reading "304 – American Psycho"

Oh-oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Merlin Hack and friends. I'm from Canada water. Dick Pooh. I feel lethal on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip. Do you have any witnesses or fingerprints?

I know my behavior can be erratic sometimes. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast bragging about our five AVN awards, but they're all for best movie really for grown-ups. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with New York City's biggest Huey Lewist San.

Joe Reed. Yeah, if anyone's the embodiment of its hip to be square, I imagine it would be me. So, there we go. What's your... Okay, I want to say this before I forget. I want to ask this before I forget it. Of the myriad adult contempo hits that Patrick Bateman plays and dances to and sort of intellectualizes about in this movie, which one did you have stuck in your head all day today? And which one would you have like been bumping on your 2,000 movies mix back in the day?

And I almost want to say like Whitney Houston isn't allowed. You're not allowed to say Whitney Houston. I mean, the answer is Whitney Houston because Whitney Houston is always in my head. I mean, like, if you're going to be doing like a 2000 movies thing, you have to do HIP to be square because of the scene that it occurs in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, honestly, good on Whitney for being like, no, you cannot use my music for this movie. Because honestly, this movie walks such a delicate balance.

with the satire and the humor and it and it like lands I would say mostly perfectly yeah but I think having actual Whitney Houston singing in this movie the joke would be too much it would be too much it would be you're so gay god damn it like that's I think I think by that point it would be like we get the joke we get the joke but they have like an orchestra it should be like a children's choir protect Whitney at all costs yeah um But I would say that it is shocking that they got the music rights to any of those songs. Like, I cannot be... I mean, maybe Huey Lewis needed the check, but Huey Lewis is also a name that always makes me feel like I'm saying it wrong. As it comes out of my mouth, I'm like, oh, I'm...

Louis Huey Hewis. Hughie Lewis. Yeah. Shocking that they said, yes. I mean, you're right, that good on them, that they might have gotten it. Yeah. I also would say for a movie slash book that eventually became a cult Broadway musical, shocking that it wasn't the Huey Lewis jukebox musical that just barely lasted on Broadway for like two weeks.

80s music in general jukebox musical. But yes, you're right, that there was an actual Huey Lewis jukebox musical. I guess I'm the only one who had Phil Collins's in too deep, stuck in, stuck, burrowed in their brain all day and cannot dislodge it for the way. I maybe have a slight Phil Collins allergy that it's like, it can come in my ear. We all have a slight Phil Collins after long. It's like, boom. The thing about Phil Collins music is it's, I mean, it's the perfect, it's perfectly chosen for this movie because he really, and it does show you, how Whitney Houston's sort of reputation evolved throughout the 2000s. Because, like, there was,

I remember there's also that moment in Empire Records where the kid shop lifts Whitney Houston CDs and they make fun of them. And, like, she was not always this, like, standard bearer for quality pop. You know what I mean? Like, there was a moment where she was just sort of the emblematic of the most banal, you know, adult contempo out there. Insane, the greatest voice that pop music has ever heard. But the thing with Phil Collins and Huey Lewis especially is that was like, it was cringe adult contemporary, right? It was very much, and the thing is, it wasn't adult contemporary.

It was, it, it, it, it, those artists would, you know, categorize, themselves is rock music, right? The heart of rock and roll is still beating and whatnot. So it wasn't, but it was like you would only listen to that with your Rod Stewart's, your stings, your, you know what I mean, like that kind of stuff. And so that's why it's the perfect choice for Patrick Bateman, this sort of soulless, you know, shell of this, you know, perfect Manhattan Wall Street guy. emblematic of aspirational consumption of a certain moment.

Well, and it's also a joke. It's also a very simple joke, which is what kind of person could get any kind of meaning out of a Huey Lewis song? They must be a serial killer. An absolute psychopath. You know what I mean? You would have to be an absolute psychopath to be able to glean any kind of like deep meaning out of Sissudio. But Patrick doesn't find deep meaning out of it. he finds like a Wikipedia page like he finds achievements to be what is deep and fascinating

about or fascinating about it you know like well but it's also this sort of like this pretension of um like uh scholarly information about it right this pretension of it's almost ad copy a little bit he's reading a pitchfork review or something like that that you know talking about how this movie really gets into, you know, the pleasures of conformity, the thing that he says about HIP to be square or whatever. And it's all just surface, right? It's all just he read it somewhere once and internalized it. And but it's also just like at its base, just like a really good joke, as are a lot of things in this movie where you can read into it and you can find, obviously, like, scratch the surface and the allegory is not.

very hard to find, but you can also just sort of find these very basic, you know, jokes about like, oh, like, you know, the Wall Street class in the 1980s were just absolute, like, lunatic misogynist capable of the most bloodthirsty kind of murder and have no sense of, no intrinsic sense of selves. They're interchangeable, you know, they're horny for their business cards. Their wives and girlfriends barely listen to them. They barely listen to their wives and girlfriends, you know, this whole sort of thing. It's a real interesting movie to have been made in 2000 because it does sort of feel a little bit like a capstone on some variety of 90s. You know what I mean? Some variety of 90s movie that, you know, the 90s spent the Indian

90s especially, and this is a movie that has a ton of indie bona fides. Not only Mary Aaron who had directed, I shot Andy Warhol. But, like, Gwynnevere Turner is a huge, like, is a huge figure in independent film in the 1990s. Chloe Seveny, of course. And,

um, even like down to like Samantha Mathis or whatever, Matt Ross. Um, whereas, like, if this was made today, you would have like the indie cred, but I think you would also have this self-aware. corny casting choice. Like, you would have Don Johnson show up somewhere. You would have...

I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Something that would, like, really call back. But I think because this movie was made at a point where 80s nostalgia hadn't become this kind of, you know, we weren't, we were too close to the 80s to have really, like, dug into the nostalgia of it. ending the 90s on this thing where we like double back to the previous decade and you know sort of throw dirt on these ideas of you know kind of how far we've come or have we you know what I mean is really interesting. There's also like a resurgence of New York City into the culture pre 9-11 though like this feels very much of like you know pop culture related to. specifically Manhattan like Sex in the City is freshly

back on the air we've had like you've got male being a major hit things like that but I also think more so this movie's placed in time in just like its sensibility the exact tone that it's kind of striking because

you're right to mention like the kind of indie vibe of the 90s leading into something like this but it feels like the type of misanthropy of this movie that can only happen right before 9-11 in terms of like... Well, you also look at what the political situation was right at this point, which was we were nearing the end of the Bill Clinton presidency, and people forget that, like, in the

lead up to that election, there was a lot of Bush, Gore, who cares, it makes no difference. You know what I mean? That the Republicans and the Democrats are basically the same. thing. And, you know, there was a sort of thick strand of disillusionment at the end of that Clinton presidency because Clinton had made some very conservative sort of plays towards the middle to, you know, remain as, you know, politically powerful as he was. And I think that led to a lot of disillusionment. And it kind of took that. the Bush presidency to sort of re-radicalize people on the left and be like, no, there's a

difference between this and that. But I think you look at something like American Psycho, and I really think in drawing the line from the Reagan era to this present day, I think there's a big sort of open-ended question of like, you know, what do you see that's different? You know what I I mean, what do you? It's not like Patrick Bateman is a, you know, relic in any way. And there are, you know, there's this deep sort of undercurrent of hatred from your sort of moneyed, masculine Wall Street bro class. Do you know what I mean? Like, this was the era of the tech boom, right? So people were like, the stock market was, was jamming at this point. So, yeah. Deeply interesting. I also feel like, and we can maybe get into this a little bit more later, two movies I absolutely thought of during this movie for various reasons were Fight Club and the last days of disco. I think there's... Yeah, it's kind of somewhere in the middle of those two, because like, well, we'll get into thematics of it, but I do want, I'm glad you bring up Fight Club because I do think there is a level of this movie. I think it's talked about it in this way less than Fight Club is. Like Fight Club is the proster child for the movie that some of its loudest fans are so obviously not getting what it is about. Yeah.

Fight Club to the extreme of like, oh, this movie's making fun of you and you don't even realize it. Yes. American Psycho, I think, is a movie that similarly its reputation now is so maybe impacted. by that set of movie lover that, you know, maybe goes in hard on the extremity of this movie, but not necessarily its humor, its satire, its deeper themes beyond a movie about a psychopath who's maybe or maybe not brutally murdering people and getting away with it. It's harder to find Patrick Bateman cool the way that people can find Tyler Durden cool. You know what I mean? Like you really got to want it to walk away from Patrick Bateman and be like, that's a cool motherfucker right there.

I think the only time that I'm like, that's a cool motherfucker is when his reflection is seen in his framed Le Miserab poster. My favorite shot in the movie. It's so funny. It's so funny. piece of you know another touchstone for kind of 80s manhattan consumption empty culture a little bit we keep talking about like hamilton tickets as you know status symbol like his lay miss poster is also that it's what it's the what the reference to cats in angels in america is also you know what i mean it's that same kind of a thing so patrick batman is a le miss person not a phantom person we've established this now we know

Now we know. But I think when you look at the ways that both of Fight Club and American Psycho were received, I think it makes much more sense to me that Fight Club found itself more towards the center of the zeitgeist became more of a known thing. I think it's a movie that handles its twist a lot more directly and sort of like puts it on front street and sort of makes sure that the audience knows what's going on, whereas American Psycho is so energetic. with the way that it deals with the reality of its, you know, of its story. Once it overtly starts questioning whether or not these things that are happening are real or not. Right. And I think that, you know, you mentioned on the outline, it's got a D cinema score. And I'm like, I'm not at all surprised. Because this movie does not give you resolution in any possible way. I think it just leaves you to sort of sit with this idea of, you know, this was either really happening or it's just something that Patrick. Strick Bateman really, really, really wants to do. And you are left to wonder if this desire, if these desires are all being sublimated, what are they being sublimated, you know, towards? Like, where does that get funneled into? There's also a level of that I think is really kind of crucial to what this movie is getting at because, like, other movies have made similar jokes before. Other movies

have made these observations about American culture, 1980s culture before. But, I think one thing that's interesting, and I think, you know, not to be so reductive as to be like, you get this from a female filmmaker. If Oliver Stone makes this movie, this movie doesn't have this point to it. I don't trust a male filmmaker to adapt Bradistinellis. I'm sorry. I need that. I need that other elements. Of all the male, maybe, maybe Cronenberg. I would maybe trust Cronenberg a little bit. But we'll get into the people who almost made this movie. The point that I'm getting at that I think is true in the final act of the movie, even as I think the movie is running out of gas, we'll get into it. There is a level of

the question, is this real or not? And I think the movie's point is it's irrelevant if it's real or not. It could be real. It could not be real. And Patrick Bauer. And Patrick Bollinger, Bateman's sense of awakening is that he's living in a world that is built for him, that if he wanted to do that, he could get away with it. And that is the revelation we in the audience should be having. You know me. You know I don't always love when a movie is like, well, it doesn't matter if what happened is real or not. Because sometimes I'm like, no, just like let me follow this, you know, this thought experiment down to the end. But I think this is the perfect kind of a movie where it's exactly what you say. Like, if it's real or whether it's not real,

it both sort of winds its way around at the same conclusion. And it's as impactful either way. So, yeah, I think it's much more about the capabilities and the desire. I'm watching it this time around, this is the first time I'd ever watched it in its entirety since I first watched it when it was in theaters. I'd seen, you know, this is a movie you see clips from it. and you see, I'm sure I'd seen, like, portions of it on television again. But watching it the whole way through for the first time in such a long time, I think the misogyny of it really hit me harder this time about, like, how central it was to, like, he's not just like this, like, indiscriminate killer.

I know he starts off by killing Paul Allen or whatnot. But, like, this is somebody who hates women, like, virulently hates women. And I feel like... you see in the way that culture has turned in the last, you know, 10 years or whatever since the Trump presidency, where this kind of bubbling under misogyny really has become once again upfront. And it's, you know, and to see it reflected in American Psycho in this way,

it's like, yeah, like this was definitely on the pulse of where this, you know, where this feeling was. And it's, again, I think it's, that sort of feeds into why I do feel like it's essential that a filmmaker like Mary Harron was the one directing this. And that she and Guinevere Turner were the ones handling the screenplay adaptation because... The Oliver Stone version of this movie is an absolute piece of shit. Yeah. And has no sense of humor whatsoever, whereas the Mary Harron version is so funny. Yeah. You, I felt very activated by you saying I hadn't seen it since I'd seen it in theaters. So what was your theatrical experience like with this movie?

What was your crowd like? I have to know. So I'm trying to remember as much as I can because obviously it's, you know, almost 25 years ago now. I saw it with. Pew. Yeah. Jeez. I saw it with one of my college roommates,

which is why I sort of remember the Fight Club thing, too, because I saw Fight Club with all of my college roommates. And this is only a few months, like six months removed from Fight Club. It's very early in 2000. But I saw it with my one roommate who would see, like, good movies with me. Like, not that Fight Club isn't a good movie, but, like, there were, you know, we would all get together, and we would see, like, Scream 3 or Blair Witch 2 or, you know what I mean? like the sort of the mass appeal movies and then I would he was the roommate who I would go to like let's go to the indie theater and we'll see whatever so we saw this one at the movie theater in downtown Buffalo in I think it was like a weekend afternoon it was like a Saturday afternoon so there weren't a ton of people there because like downtown Buffalo really empties out on the weekends so or at least especially did back then this area still does so it wasn't a very full theater so I don't

remember anything about, like, the theatrical experience of it all. But, like, we were still... But you didn't have, like, scandalized older couples or anything. No. But also, like, the two of us are, like, 19 years old. So, like, there is a ceiling on what we're getting out of this. You know what I mean? Like, we were, you know, we weren't dummies. But we also, like, I knew that this was something, obviously, like, very, very different than the kinds of movies. And I knew that the acclaim that this movie had. So I sort of went into it being like, ah, yes, this is, this is a, you know, this is an acclaimed indie movie. And I remember being very sort of flummoxed by the twist.

But then we left the movies and we went to grab lunch and we talked about the, you know, we talked about the twist and we talked about what we thought and what our, you know, sort of, you know, thoughts about the whole thing were. And I don't feel like we had this like, obviously we didn't have this like great discussion on, you know, consumerism of the 1980s or misogyny in, you know, in Wall Street or whatever. But it was definitely one of those, like, you want to have a conversation about this movie afterwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a good memory. That's definitely one of the ones from that time that I remember.

This is weirdly one of the movies that I was not allowed to see. The shit that I got away with seeing and, like, enthusiastically was like, yes, Is it because the title put it right out there? It's because it was called American Psycho and your parents were like absolutely not. I mean, like, this is sometimes where I'm like, if there's controversy around a rating, then it's like, you know, the edits never happened or something.

Maybe. Like, if that permeates the consciousness. And like, this was a movie that people were like, oh, they had to trim the sex scenes in this movie, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I, but like my in-theater memory, was, and it was, like, I was taken back to this because when I changed the letterbox poster to the poster that's like his distorted face in the reflection of his card case, and you see the little business card that says American Psycho.com or whatever.

That poster used to be right outside of the bathroom of like the multiplex that we went to, and it used to scare the shit out of me. But, like, scare me in a way that it's like, well, I gotta go pee. So, but then, like, you're a teenager who's terrified of your own body anyway. And then you walk out and immediately see something different, terrifying.

Very, very sense memory. But, like, I think I probably saw this for the first time in college and similarly was too. young. This rewatch for me made me think in perhaps the tritus terms that American

Psycho is ultimately a Who Am I movie? But a Who Am I movie about the, you know, young male psyche. I mean, it should be said Patrick Bateman is generally the age. We're saying we were too young to understand this movie.

Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Because, you know, this whole crisis that he has, towards the end of it where he's not sure if this is what is real or if it's a fantasy that he's having and that everybody kind of laughs it off anyway so like there's no recourse for it being real

I feel like this is ultimately kind of a movie about male identity and just trying to figure out who you are as a person in terms of mailness, and especially heterosexual maleness, is very wrapped up in, you know, filling it with things that you can consume. I am all of my belongings, and I am the success of my belongings. I, as a person who loves Huey Lewis, that means that all of the Huey Lewis success is bestowed upon to me. Right, right. Well, again, it's finding yourself worth in your business card because, you know, this guy has a

better shade of herringbone or not herringbone like bone whatever the the shade of white is bone um or the you know this one is embossed or this one is has a watermark you know what i mean like that kind of thing and finding um and the movie finds a lot of humor in that obviously but it's it's it's telling and i don't know there's also the thing of i mean to bring it a little bit back to fide club too is that the kind of outrage that was met some of these movies like it should be taken fully on its face stone serious when it's so obviously satire like it makes it impossible to kind of not only untangle those two movies but also you know it forces this into a movie that you have to reassess in a way every time you watch it because

because people got it so wrong on first blush. Not everyone, but I think it didn't get the full appreciation it could have had at the time. And some of that is the extremity of the movie, the violence. And, like, you actually don't see much violence on screen. You see a lot of blood. Yeah. But you don't see, like...

There's not gore in this. You don't see, like, the axe entering into the body or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You see a lot of aftermath. You see a lot of him covered in blood. He sort of, you know, and it's the blood, you know, juxtaposed with this sort of perfectly tended to body that he has, that Aaron really makes sure to, you know, draw those lines. But I think you see it even in like these, you know, attempts reading through the research on the book,

how many times that the book was sort of brought up as, whether correctly or apocryphally, as, you know, evidence for, you know, that a murderer was obsessed with the book, trying to sort of tie it in a catcher in the rye, Mark David Chapman, kind of a way. There was this famous murder, serial murder, kidnapping and murder case in Southern Ontario. Ferrio and Buffalo around in the early 90s with Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka, which was like the notorious serial killer story of my youth. And they tried to, you know, I think the story in the press was that Paul Bernardo had a copy of American Psycho. And ultimately, that was debunked a bit that it was his wife's copy and that he had probably never read it in that

Was American Psycho pinned to Columbine, too? Because that's the thing about the movie is the movie would have come out after Columbine. The movie came out after. But because, like, the Columbine also added to an air of, like, how dare you do this in a movie now to fight club, to, like, any movie that had male, angry male violence or, you know. But it also added an air of, into. intellectualism, too, because there was also, while, you know, people were trying to ban violent movies and video games or whatever, there was also this sense of, like, what, how can we burrow into this, like, adolescent male psyche and, like, figure out what the hell

is going on there, right? What the hell is going on with these teenage boys that they would think to do something like this. And so I think anything that dealt with masculine and violence and, you know, that sort of thing got a lot of interest, I think. Elephant was only a few years after this, Gus Van Sant's elephant, which was another, you know, more direct, obviously, exploration of that. We should maybe get into the plot description. We've already had, we've already chowed down some meat on the bone of this movie. to turn a phrase.

Joe, before we do that, though, why don't you tell the listeners about our Patreon? Sure, why don't I tell the listeners about our Patreon? This Head Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance is how you can get even more of us for just $5 a month. You will get two bonus episodes per month for our Patreon. One of these episodes, we call an exceptions episode that'll, come early in the month, the first Friday, Chris? First Friday. Thank you.

These exceptions are movies that almost qualify for a flagship show discussion in that they had great Oscar expectations and disappointing results, except they got a nomination or two. It's still disappointing, but they got a nomination or two. So we've just recently put out an episode on Ryan Johnson's Knives Out, with our special guest, Jorge Molina. That was a listener or a patron's choice episode, which was pretty rad. We've had other patrons choice selections previously, Molly's game, and the lovely bones was lovely bones. Yeah. We've been, we've been hitting some really good ones. We've got now a

year's worth of really, really fun, good episodes. So check it out if you're interested in us talking about Vanilla Sky or my best friend's wedding or the mirror has two faces. We had Katie Rich on to talk about Australia. There's just a Madonna's W.E. Indeed, indeed. We talked about Madonna's W.E. Third Friday of every month, you will get an episode that we call an excursion, where we will be taking ourselves off of format to talk about the awards season ephemera that appeals to us. We will be doing E.W. Fall Movie previews

or recapping far-flung award shows like the Andy Spirits. and the MTV Movie Awards. We've got to find, like, a teen choice awards or something like that. I don't want to watch that or something for. I don't want to watch. Recently, we've done an award season check-in. We've got an episode coming up that we are, as of recording time, still not sure what the format of this one's going to be. So that'll be a surprise for us and you.

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slash this had Oscar Buzz $5 a month, the cost of a Baja blast, and you probably get a little bit of change. Again, I don't know what things cost. Does it not do it cost? Oh, you're going to allow J.D. Vassie. that turd of a person to destroy your appreciation for a thing that you love is purely as well as solipsistic is that that I saw that idiot talking about Diet Mountain Dew

and my first thought was like we can't talk about Baja Blast anymore you're like it's over it's over guys pack it in we can't talk about Baja Blasts anymore listen the amounts of crappy food stuff that Donald Trump like wasn't he eating? like fucking chicken wings in the Oval Office or something, I'm not giving up anything because of these turds. So I advise that you not either. But anyway. For the cost of a Huey Lewis greatest hits on iTunes.

For the cost of a coconut smoothie, you can listen to this had Oscar buzz turbulent really. For the cost of a full tank of gas in your chainsaw. A coconut spoon. smoothie must taste like drinking a bottle of suntan lotion, I imagine, right? It's got to be gritty. It's got to have, like, pulp. Imagine a coconut pulp.

Well, as a person who has been, you know, very upfront about the fact that I love an almond joy, I can't, I can't clown on coconut too much. But I do feel like in liquid form, live in your filth. That's the meanest thing you ever said to me. What's what wrong with you? More for me. I'm enjoying. Listen, if we're sounding dower this evening, listener, we're recording on a Tuesday night, so we might be just a little tie-tie, but I think we're finding our second win. We'll find our second win by insulting each other as the men do in this movie. We've been recording so many episodes back to back, you guys. I'm so tired. I'm so tired.

But we got that nice TIF break coming for us. Sure, yes. Yeah, there's no way we won't be exhausted at the end of Tiff either with Midnight Madness. movies and, you know, whatever that hell else is going on. I do once. I'm not doing it again. Yeah. All right. Anyway, American Psycho. Patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. So, Joe, you have some news. I do have some news. I have a brand new podcast that I am doing as a side gig.

I am in no way leaving my post at This Had Oscar Buzz. I'm just adding more podcasting onto. my daily life. The listeners have come to a bridge and there is a Joe Reed in a wizard's hat and a glowing orb and it says, would you like to go on a side quest? Exactly. This side quest is let's you and me and all of my guests, which include Chris Vile, go on a journey through the filmography of one Demi Moore. The podcast is called Demi, Myself, and I. We are going to go film by film chronologically through the career of Demi Moore. more, starting with her humble beginnings in movies like choices and parasite, not that one,

and young doctors in love, all the way to her can triumph that was the substance, and who knows where that'll end up taking her this year, which is very exciting. This is Patreon exclusive, so it'll be for a low, low cost of $5 a month. You can get three episodes every month. I will release new episodes on the 10th, the 20th, and the 30th of every month. Don't worry about February. I'll figure it out with February. You'll still get three episodes a month.

New guest every episode. Chris Fyle, you know all too well because you were the guest on my very first episode. I could not have launched a new podcast without you. Listeners who love listening to Joe and I bicker, listen. There's another venture where you can go and do that now. Not every time, not every episode. But trust and believe, I will show up when you least expect it. I will have episodes with the likes of television writer Chris Schleiker.

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So that'll be a very fun episode. And in general, I'm just super jazzed. As I say in my intro episode, it's not just that I think Demi, myself, and I is a very silly pun, but it is pretty good as a pun. But also, it's a very fascinating career. It lets me talk about back when we got a whole bunch of mid-range genre movies. And, you know, DeMey made legal thrillers. and she made romantic dramas, and she made animated Disney movies,

and she made, you know, erotic thrillers. A lot of thrillers. She worked with Adrian Line. She worked with Joel Schumacher. She worked with Ridley Stott. Just tons of really, really interesting stuff. She was at one point the highest paid actress in the world. She was at one point in one of the biggest celebrity marriages in Hollywood.

She was at one point naked on the cover of Vanity Fair and pregnant. And everyone lost their goddamn mind. Everybody lost their goddamn minds about it. So there are a ton of really, really fascinating nooks and crannies into this career. And I'm really, really hopeful that you will want to join me and all of my wonderful guests to talk about it. And what a better time to start celebrating to me than right now. Exactly. At a major career resurgent point. So if you want to go check out this podcast, you can go to Patreon. dot com slash demipod that's patreon.com slash d e mipod and sign up again for the low low cost of um what's a charlie's angels themed food stuff that you could get um i don't know something for the cost of a 1994 issue of vanity fair honestly probably true yeah that's a good point all right

Anyway, I'll come up with a better example of what costs $5 in relation to Demi more movies, and we'll figure it out for the cost of a buzz cut before you join the Marines. You can, right, they shouldn't charge you very much to buzz your hair. It's just zip, zip, and you're done, right? Anyway, DeMe, myself, and I found wherever your finest Patreon podcasts are found. I will see you there. You will see Chris there. And by C, I mean here, because that is how podcasts work.

indeed now here we are back at American Psycho you know what good movie I understand why people wouldn't want to revisit it but also at the same time

I've seen a ton of people revisiting this movie like on Letterbox lately because when you said when you said maybe we should do American Psycho I was like great people are actually watching this movie right now. Couldn't tell you why.

Maybe we'll find out why. It's because it's on Netflix. It's literally because it's on Netflix, which is so depressing. But it gets people to watch it. So, you know, it's nice. It feels like Netflix always has like one or two, like, dangerous movies to watch.

Like, it's supposed to be the, like, HBO after dark movie on Netflix. Sure. Sure, sure, sure. Was this an HBO movie that they... Was this, like, HBO? Well, it's Lionsgate. Early Lionsgate. Yeah.

I feel like I remember watching this on HBO. I certainly feel like if this had been a movie that had come out when I was in high school, I would very much have been trying to see it because you see a lot of Christian Bale's booty in this movie. And I was very much looking for any movie that would let me see the movie stars with their booties. You know, you sure do see a lot of Christian Bale. You do. covered in blood I have thoughts on that that are not

maybe the thoughts that you think I have thoughts on but I have thoughts on that yeah this is also one of the first Christian Bale Transformation performances which it's like it's so early in his career that we don't think of it as such but like he went crazy to like get all muscular

and then four years later did the machinist got emaciated I want to talk about that I want to talk about this era and Christian Bales career. Have we ever talked about Christian Pale on the show? That is a very squeaky tone of voice. I'm that unsure. He's in Captain Corelli's mandolin. He's not the focus of Captain Corelli's mandolin. Certainly wasn't the focus of that episode. I guarantee you the focus of that episode was us going

Bellababina back and forth to each other for two hours. The only other one besides that that we've done is Exodus Gots and Kings. Exodus Gets and Kings. And kings. Yeah. And I feel like that movie is probably, we probably talked more about Joel Edgerton than we talked about Christian Bale because there's nothing to say for Christian Bale for that movie. So I'm glad we can maybe have that conversation today. We can. Let's have that conversation. I would like to have that conversation. We need to bring that back.

That one hasn't come back yet and that one needs to come back. I've even seen the bus come back. And I just want more of her Thanksgiving. turkey preparation talk. Like, that's my favorite. That's my favorite Kamala. When asked, that's my favorite comrade. Anyway, listener, we're here talking about American Psycho.

Directed by Mary Heron, written by Mary Heron and Gwynnevee Turner. From Brett Easton Ellis's novel, starring the one and only Christian Bale, Willam Defoe, Chloe Seveny, Jared Leto, Justin Thoreau, Josh Lucas, Bill, Sage, Matt Ross, Kara Seymour, Guinevere Turner herself, Reggie Kathy. She's so good in her one scene in this movie. I love her. I fucking love her. I forgot that it was Reggie Kathy, too, that he stabs in the alley.

I was like, how are you going to do that to Reggie Kathy? I know. What is your main touchstone? Because I think we remember him from different things. I don't know if I have a singular Reggie Kathy. Reggie Kathy is just one of those things, one of those performers. that transcends a touch. Like, they are just, they are an eternal force in the, you know, universe of SENA.

They have always been there. They will always be there. They will always be great, no matter how. He was the replacement warden on Oz. It's midway through that show. And he was played a real son of a bitch, and it was great. I did not watch Oz. And we are going to give her the and credit.

I don't think she has it in the movie. Reese Witherspoon, hitting her sixth time with a film on the show. We will be doing a six-timers, Reese Witherspoon at long last. Only took us three. Are we sure she doesn't get the and credit? I think she might. I didn't catch if she did, but I don't think there's many people who get a solo screen credit if I'm remembering correctly. Fair.

Maybe not. Maybe I just wasn't paying attention to the credits. I'm pretty sure that that is when Christian Bale is in some type of disrobe. So you're like, out of here, Reese. I've got other things to look at. With and, I don't care right now. With that and with that and that. Like, the motion picture premiered at the 2000 Sundance Film Festival.

We'll talk about that. And then opened wide, April 14th, 2000. Joe Reed, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description of American Psycho? Absolutely not. All right. Then you're great. Buckle up. Your 60-second plot description for American Psycho starts now. It's 1987. Christian Bale plays Patrick Bateman. If you are interested, he works on Wall Street. He works with a bunch of very similarly dressed and seeming white men who all sit around and banter back about each other and try and run down their rivals and obsess over business cards and whatnot. He's dating slash maybe engaged to Reese Witherspoon.

He also, in his spare time, commits murders as much as possible because he has a compulsion in him to kill people. So we kill his first kill that we see is he murders Paul Allen, who is his chief rival, does this with an axe in the middle of a Huey Lewis song. He murders homeless people. He murders women he goes on dates with. He is violent towards sex workers that he hires. and he's being followed seemingly by Willem Defoe, who sort of seems like he's trying to solve the case, but he's never quite like on Patrick's tale.

And Patrick at this point sort of starts to break down from the stress and this awful, awful freedom he has to kill. And he, after chainsawing Kara Seymour and trying to feed a cat to an ATM and whatnot, He calls and confesses his crimes to his lawyer, and his lawyer thinks he's somebody else and is also joking. And then he goes back to the scene of the crime, and it's just a perfectly painted apartment that is being sold. So we don't know whether anything has actually happened. And we reached the end, and is Patrick a killer or is Patrick not a killer?

Kind of who cares because Patrick both exists and doesn't exist. in this movie, kind of. Almost 55 seconds over. It took you 30 seconds before anyone was dead. Well, there weren't, you know, business crust. I otherwise say, well done. This movie is, like, there's a lot that happens, but it's not bloody. Like, it's very episodic, and then the movie realizes it kind of has to put a bow on it.

So I think it's after the chainsaw killing, and that's when he kind of starts to break down. And the movie loses its sense of humor and kind of, you know, ultimately I think it makes its point. But I do think this movie really kind of loses gas in the last 20 minutes of it. It sort of flirts with a kind of quasi-lynching in, like, what is reality thing when he goes back to the apartment and the wheelter. Yeah, the apartment dealer who's like never. come back here. Right, and you get the sense of like, are we supposed to think, like, there's a, there's a conspiracy here going on and like something is, you know, a foot. And ultimately then that kind of gets dropped and it becomes very sort of interior to Patrick. It's a lot of him just sort of like inner monologuing about this compulsion to inflict his pain on others. There's a moment where they're talking about Ronald Reagan. that puts a pretty, you know, hangs a lantern on this idea of Reaganite types than, you know what I mean, in the 1980s and whether it's this sort of sheen on this very ugly and homicidal and psychopathic desire within the American animus to essentially dominate weaker people. You know what I mean? This sort of Randian, you know, compulsion to you are at the top of the mountain. And because you are at

the top of the mountain, you can inflict pain and violence and death on other people. And because you can, you must. You know what I mean? That it is this imperative to. And that is ultimately how you get your identity through this, you know, multi-tiered domination. Right, right. And that's when you see when he kills the homeless person, you know, he talks about how, like, do you know how disgusting you are or whatever? And it's just sort of, it's reinforcing his power, right? It's reinforcing this power dynamic that ultimately, anytime he's threatened within his own, you know, strata of existence, right? Anytime he's threatened by, you know, somebody getting a reservation that he can't get. Or, you know, somebody doesn't, somebody mistakes him for somebody else. And they don't have any good bathrooms to do cocaine in. And no, that's actually good for this movie, because I think when you're getting into satire of a specific era,

specifically when we're talking about movies dealing with like Wall Street in the 1980s, it's good to reach for something that is universal, not, I hate the word universal, something that, you know, transcends those specifics because like I do think there is something in American Psycho that while its veneer is all pastiche, there is some true psychological nugget that is not just of that time, you know, So finding something... Yes. I think that's a big part of the movie is finding the things in this movie that feel like they have not stayed calcified in the 1980s, right? That you can see this kind of attitude reflected in current day, whether the current day is 2000 or in 2024. And certainly, like, this type of person hasn't gone away. Like, look at, you know, look at the people, I mean, not to, like, whatever, there's going to be so many

podcast where I just like bag on Republicans from here until the election. I'm sorry. Look at it. It's just going to happen. But like it's just like this, this version of, of a person, of, you know, a person seeking dominance and seeking this sort of like might makes right. And is so reflected in this Republican, especially this, the, the, the types of Republicans who feel like. Like, they can intellectualize their way into, you know, a white, a white hegemonic, you know, nation state. Well, but also in the movie's portrait of mailness, like, I think that this movie is a movie about maleness. And it's like, I think the version, it's so right to say, but the version that's not made by a female filmmaker probably doesn't get that. And maybe that's where we can talk a little bit about the production. history of this movie because... Yeah, go to town.

I think one of the kind of shocking things is, you know, the book had the reputation that it did, you know, in the 90s, you know, or throughout the 90s. And yet it was still kind of this hot property of people wanting to make this movie. It originally started with Johnny Depp wanting to make it with Stuart Gordon, the guy who did like reanimator movies.

And it's like, you can kind of see. see that version of the movie and be like, well, maybe that movie could get it. You know, the Stuart Gordon version of the movie. But it's quickly taken over by David Cronenberg, who spends, like, years trying to make the movie, including getting Breddy Sinellis involved with adapting his own screenplay, Breddy Sinellis, who we should note is not a good person. Not my favorite. You know, not my favorite.

You know, don't like when he speaks in public generally. Don't like when he speaks for gay people, speaking of gay folk. Yeah, I do not, not my ambassador. But, like, he's talked about his process of trying to adapt his own work. And, like, if you read quotes from him about it and how it was ultimately, like, his way of trying to destroy the movie from ever happening in a way, But it also kind of accidentally makes it sound like he didn't really craft this thing into genius, but kind of accidentally captured lightning in a bottle. Maybe that's just my kind of interpretation of Brett Easton Ellis, you know, really capturing this thing about the American male psyche with this thing that he created. Gronenberg has Brad Pitt for a minute attached to this movie.

It doesn't happen. But as Mary Heron is getting involved and Mary Heron is taking over the adaptation, the producers get really hung up on the idea of post-Titanic Leonardo DiCaprio taking over this movie. First of all, let's- It makes a certain degree of sense. It does, but like as hostile as the reception for this movie, was with Christian Bale, who, like, we haven't really gotten into the Christian Bail of it yet. But can you imagine, like, they were hostile to the man in the iron mask because it wasn't good.

But, like, if off of the heels of Titanic, which, like, you know, makes, you know, teenage fan girls around the world for Leonardo DiCaprio, if he goes and plays Patrick fucking Bateman after that. I'm kind of into the chaos of it, right? of having his legion of fans, because at this point, he is looking to break out of that mold. You know, it's the Pattinson post-Twilight thing, right? And ultimately, he does the beach, which I think is a fascinating failure that I really do want to talk about on this podcast someday. Because it's so interesting. And that ultimately he does, like, he, you know, plays at this horrible bratty celebrity in celebrity.

in Woody Allen's celebrity, and just sort of keeps working his way out of that straight jacket of teen, you know, teen heartthrob kind of a thing. And he makes it ultimately. But I think it would have been a shock to the system, certainly, to have him play Patrick Bateman quite so soon. I think he ultimately in 2000 is still a little too boyish to do it. I think Even though he's technically the right age, Patrick Bateman is supposed to be in his mid-20s. Right, but I think Bale sells mid-20s better than DiCaprio, who at that point in his career, was selling 20. You know what I mean? He sort of came across on the beach, which is, you know, comes out the same year.

He comes out, he comes across like very young 20s, if not like 19. You know what I mean? It would have been the Frank Abagnale. version of... Kind of. Yeah. I'll say this about Cronenberg's version of this movie, is he would have fed that cat to the ATMs. He would have figured out a way. Well, and Cronenberg, who's like no stranger to adaptation, because even like history of violence is an adaptation, you can still kind of see his mark just as a filmmaker with this type of satire, this type of extremity on it.

There's a shot when Patrick is freaking out and he's at the payful. and such. And it looks exactly like something out of Dead Ringers. So, yeah, like, I would be curious to read, like, what did that script look like when it was still Cronenberg's? But I don't think you need someone who takes something to a Cronenbergian place, which I guess I don't even know what I mean by that, because, like, he's not always having creatures and shit. No, but I think there is a way in which Cronenberg's sensibilities is maybe distract from the main point of this. And also, he is Canadian.

And I'm not saying that you can't be Canadian and get at something, but there is something intrinsically American about the commentary on this. And I think they're, you know, to have that commentary come from an outsider's perspective. Are we sure Mary Herron is not Canadian? Is she also Canadian? I don't know. Credit.

I'll hold on a second. Mary Heron was born in Ontario. God damn it. Fine, I take it back. Bracebridge, Ontario. Where the hell is that? Come on, Ontario. But when...

Okay, so the producers, like, announced that Leonardo DiCaprio is going to be in this movie while Mary Heron is still developing it against her wishes, basically. She has to kind of fight to get Christian Bale to be the guy. After basically she got a tip from

Todd Haynes, who had cast him in Velvet Goldmine, that great actor, etc. And he's like kind of perfect. She'd already had Billy Crudup drop out because Billy Crudup was like, I don't know if this is for me, which you can see the

Crudup version of this almost more clearer than the DiCapri. version, I think. Yes. I think crude up is good casting for this. I think this is something I think crude up in general throughout his career

has presented on balance warmer. You know what I mean? I think bail can really transform himself into something cold in a way that is necessary for this. But crude up's got the chops.

I think there's a smarm isn't the right word because it's not like Leo couldn't play smarm. There's an affability that reads as maybe a little stupid or touch or put on that he has to have that I think crude up would be very natural at. Except I don't think it's affability. I think it's almost comes across when bail does it as alien a little bit, you know what I mean? Or as like, you know, I've learned human. manorisms through, you know, through glass, you know what I mean? I've observed it through glass. The way he, you know, dances around to the Huey Lewis, which is in this very...

I am not an organic creature. I am a... Yeah, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. But yeah, that's interesting. Crude-up's an interesting... And the movie as it exists basically is able to happen because Leo DiCaprio... out because he's like, you know what, maybe this isn't a good idea for my career. Meanwhile, you have someone like Christian Bale who it completely catapults him. And it's so weird that, like, he was treated basically as an unknown when they were making this movie, even though it's like, he got his start in Spielberg movies, okay? So let's have the Christian Bale conversation because this is very interesting.

So, as you say, God is start with Spielberg, Empire of the Sun. He is how old an Empire of the Sun? He's... 10 to 13. Yes, I would say. So that movie's what, 1987? Mm-hmm. And Christian Bill...

Good Lord. It's a computer. Fucking trying my patience. So he's about, yeah, 13 years old. when he does that movie. Newsies is 92. He's also in Henry V. The kind of brand is Henry V.

But Newsies in 92 and then Swing Kids in 93. Both of those are movies where he's got a lead role is meant to be a sort of like iconic heartthrob and both of those movies bomb, right? Obviously Newsies has a second life on cable. and video with the Disney Channel and, you know, young kids of the 90s, but nobody would know about that for another 10 years. For a while there, it was just newsies was a bomb. Critics hated it. It didn't make, you know, enough money. Swing Kids was an even bigger bomb. Swing Kids was a movie about essentially like young people in Nazi Germany who, you know, try and avoid, you know, they, you know, they just want to dance. You know what I mean? Fun for the whole family.

We don't want to join the Hitler youth. We just want to dance. So both of those things kind of handicap the start of his career, but he perseveres. He's in, or Hollywood perseveres. Hollywood's like, no, you know, we like this kid. We want to keep going with it. He's in Little Women playing Lori in 94. I'm saying, like, that was a hit movie.

He's good in it. Like, Lori isn't, like, I mean, everyone in Little Women is essentially, except for the professor, is like an iconic role. So it's like, he played. The professor's the one that she, like, actually marries, right? Oh, Gabriel Byrne. Yes. Right? Yes, it's Gabriel Byrne.

Yeah. I mean, I guess if you're played by Gabriel Byrne, you're a little more iconic, but no one cares about that character. Nobody, no, nobody wants, yeah. Women have formulated romantic attachments to Lorry, a character on the page. Like, he played a very famous role. Well, and when you combine that, but. Right. But when you combine that with the, again, I say, sleeper cell that was newsies, which was, you know, accumulating fans throughout the decade, it's no surprise that he emerges at the end of the decade.

But, like, he keeps making really interesting. projects along the way. He's a voice in Pocahontas. He's in Jane Campion's The Portrait of a Lady, although God for the Life of Me, I can't remember what he does in that movie. It's been a very long time since I've seen The Portrait of a Lady. The big one for me is he's essentially the POV character in Todd Haynes' Velvet Gold Mine. He's the whoever the character in Citizen Kane is who does the who's you know investigating Charles Foster Kane except that he fucks Charles Foster Kane eventually I think we all want Citizen Kane to end that way so Todd Haynes fixed that right up um Velvet Gold Mine in my heart is my favorite Todd Haynes movie

I love it so much I've seen it several times bail gets better every time I watch it is the other thing I think the first times I watched it I think I was obviously you're more drawn to flashier characters like you and McGregor, and of course, obviously Tony Colette smoking that blessed cigarette. But Christian Bale, every time I watch the movie, I really, really get more dialed into his character because his is the character. You see him as a young man and as, you know, not an old man, but like, you know, more of a middle-aged, you know, person looking back. What's that? I said, okay, Jok-K. Wait, what did I say? You said, you see him as a young man.

man. Not as an old man. I got it. I got it. Not a you see it. Annabelle. Um, yes. But anyway, you see him sort of looking backwards at this, you know, time in his life when he was quasi-closited, but was sort of, you know, living, you know, had the courage to put on

a feather boa and some sparkles and go out to a show. And he had this, you know, the magical experience with the Hugh and McGregor, which that scene, underrated hot fucking scene. You know what else gets better about Velma Gold Mine every time you watch it?

What? Everything. Everything. I mean, like, there's the thread that it is, or at least, you know, pre-Wonderstruck, there was the thread that it was the weakest Todd Haynes movie. And like, I mean, like, I I dare you to name

a you know, strong, a contemporary to Todd Haynes that is in his age group of living filmmakers whose worst movie is as good as Velvet Gold Mine. I mean, you know, I don't subscribe to that idea that it is his worst, but yes, the general assumption was that. He's in the 1999, a Midsummer Night's Dream,

another movie that I want to do on this podcast at some point, which is just a star-studded cast, Michelle Pfeiffer. Callista Flockhart, sort of as Allie McBeill is such a big deal. Rupert Everett. Early Fox Searchlight. Kevin Klein, Stanley Tucci, Sophie Marceau coming off of that Bond movie. And so he's in good company there. He plays Demetrius.

I don't know that play very well, but okay. And that American Psycho and Shaft in the same year. Is he playing the bad guy in Shaft? I thought Jeffrey Wright was the bad guy in Shaft. I thought so, too. I don't know who Bale plays in Shaft. I should watch Shaft. Anyway, so this all of a sudden is a level up, you know, moment for him.

But obviously American Psycho is this, you know, huge, huge moment for him. And it is the first sense that we get of Christian Bale expert chamele, which is a level he would be revisiting quite a bit, especially over the next sort of decade. I think that's what ends up getting him the Batman role, which only, that Batman comes only five years after American Psycho is kind of wild to me. Yeah. Because it does feel like a lot of terrain was covered in between that. And... Well, and it feels like, you know, the wheels are off the cart a little bit, too, because things like equilibrium are a bomb.

So it's like he kind of goes away. It's not like Laurel Canyon was this, like, great, you know, thing. He's really good in Rain of Fire, the Dragon movie with him and McConaughey. I'm some surprise that Genzi has not... claimed rain of fire. It seems like the type of thing that would happen, right? Yes. But I also remember, because I was definitely very, very much, I was writing for this movie site doing essentially like movie news in 2005, from like 2003 to 2005. So during the like casting of Christian Bale, which happened around 03, I want to say. And I remember at the time thinking like,

Oh, that's a really interesting choice to go for this person who at the time was sort of seen as like an actor's actor, right? He was more actor than a character actor than star. Right, exactly, exactly. So. But especially when he's up against people like Josh Hartnett for the role of Batman, you know. Right, right. There was a lot of, yeah, there was, there were stars. There were people who were bankable. There were people who were, I wish I could, actually, let me click into, I bet you the, the, the, the, the, Batman begins Wikipedia page. It's got to be like 20 different names. Oh my God, I guarantee. Well, I think by nature of Christian Bales casting, too, it gave us an indication that they were, that like Christopher Nolan, who like wasn't really, like, we knew Momento, but

like, yeah. It was such a sign that it was moving in a very particular direction that we maybe weren't predicting. So the list of prospective Batman at that moment, through the various iterations of what that would end up being because that movie, for a while there, there was a Darren Aronovsky version that was going to happen, and there was a lot. So, Ian Bailey, Henry Cavill, like, this is the thing, people forget, when Henry Cavill didn't play Superman until 2013, he had been in the mix for every major superhero role. for like 10 years. I think that's the curse of just being born into that jaw line. Well, I was going to say, yeah, exactly.

Eon Bailey, Henry Cavill, Billy crude up, Hugh Dancy, Jake Gyllenhaal, Joshua Jackson, David Borianas, Heath Ledger, Killian Murphy, Josh Hartnett. It was every handsome, young, white guy in Hollywood back. then was considered for this. And Christian Bale, among all of them, was seen as like the weird, you know, character. Character actor is a good way of putting it. Right. So, but it's something like, I think without American Psycho, there's no way they even take that chance on him. But American Psycho sort of shows that he can be this chameleon. And of course, Batman, he's got the voice and, you know, the, and also, He has this kind of, you know, pumped up physique in that. He's not this, like, chiseled Greek god in Batman Begins, but he's bulky, right? He's sort of, you know, there are those scenes where he's training in the whatever Himalayas or something like that. And so he certainly had come a long way rebounding back from the machinist, which was not too long before Batman begins.

He was on an ice diet. right and then so he would keep sort of revisiting did he didn't he also get emaciated for he immediately gets emaciated again for rescue dawn yeah yeah yeah yeah so there was this whole like you know this boomeranging of of weight which i get so nervous for people when they do that it's so not healthy um but anyway i think then once the batman thing hits he then gets cast in any number of roles in these sort of great American archetypes, right? He's in a Western and 310 to Yuma. He's a, you know, a lawman in public enemies.

And he's, oh, and he loses weight again for the fighter. Fuck. I forgot about that. That poor body of his, I swear to Christ. And then he gains it for American hustle. I don't know, man. I think he's basically said, I am not doing this to my body anymore. Good.

I'm glad. Please, Christian. Stay healthy, Mr. Bale. Stay healthy. But I think, you know, if you're talking about the trajectory and being the podcast we are, we have to talk about his Oscar win for the fighter, which comes on his first nomination. And, like, he was, like, the best actor to not be nominated for an Oscar for about 10 years. And, you know, I feel like I've referenced actors that it's just like, well, their first

time up, like, people just wonder where their Oscar nomination is, and it just happens. Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yeah, the first time that it happens, they're just going to do it, regardless of, you know. Regina King, Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep, totally, totally. I like him in the fighter. I think there are other people, I mean, whatever, we've done the Amy Adams discussion before. But I think the two of them together, I think that's why, you know, what's the scene we always reference? is, you know, I like my life, Dickey. I'll see you in Mickey's Corner, otherwise go fuck yourself.

Like, it's a great scene. It's the best scene in the movie. You know what I mean? It's these two people sort of facing down each other and coming to a compromise for this doofus that they both love. You know what I mean? Like, God bless, whatever, I can't say God bless to either one, nor Mark Wahlberg nor David O. Russell, I don't wish good for either one of them. But, like, they brought out, they bring out the best, Dickie. They brought out the best in each other in whatever. Russell brings out the best in Walberg in multiple movies, I will say. Only Paul Thomas Anderson has done better. I mean, I will caveat by saying that as casting him as stupid people. Maybe just well-cast.

It's not a bad, it's not a bad idea to do. Christian Bale, though, what's so interesting is that it feels like he's kind of gone away? Well, the David O. Russell movies, he hitched his wagon to David O. Russell so heavily. And then he hopped to the Adam McKay thing, right? And so, and obviously, he's still on the David O. Russell thing because he was in Amsterdam. But, like, that star has faded, you know, pretty significantly. He's loyal to his directors because he's done multiple Scott Cooper movies too, but like those, these are all out of fashion.

Including the Scott Cooper movie that fully is just no one has seen it. The pale blue eye? Yeah, he plays like Edgar Allan Poe, I think. Is that who he plays in that? That's crazy. No, Harry Melling plays Edgar Allan Poe. It's like such a good actor. Edgar Allan Poe when he was in the military academy.

That was a Netflix movie. That was a Netflix movie that released on January 6th. Like New Year's, Fully Buried it. Or it was like in theaters on New Year's Eve. Yeah. But like, I suppose, you know, Vice is something we would absolutely rather forget. Ford versus Ferrari was a hit movie, but nobody ever talks about it. He was the villain in a Thor movie.

But again, he's still, as a Ford versus Ferrari, he's still pulling in Oscar nominations. You know what I mean? He wasn't nominated for Ford versus Ferrari. Oh, no, you're right. It was nominated for Best Picture. Right. But he had been pulling, he pulled a nomination for Vice. He pulled a nomination for the big short.

Next time we'll see him is in Maggie Gyllenhaal's Bride of Frankenstein remake, which I would be very excited for, but the set photos... I'm just going to keep yelling at you about that until we get something else. It just looks like Maggie Gillenhall's Suicide Squad. I have faith that this will be a good time. I'm very excited.

I'm very excited. Annette Benning, Peter Sarsgar. John McGarrow, baby. John McGarrow. Jake is in it. Jeannie Berlin is in it. But yeah, Bale plays Frankenstein's monster. All I'll say is if Jake is not Igor, I don't want it. I don't want it. I gore. I'm so excited for this movie. There are a lot of, 2025 is really shaping up for, there's some good movies. Next year is going to be nice. I can't wait. Actually, I'm excited for this fall's movies, too, but I'm super can't wait for 2025.

Christian Bail in this movie, though. We should talk about this performance, because we haven't really said much about his specific performance, but I think he's... Yeah. I just want to mention very quickly, though, too, because I know that you didn't see the Thor movie. But the Thor movie is him once again sort of like Christian bailing it up, right? in that, like, he's, you know, he looks like an absolute freak. He's doing a really crazy voice. He's, you know, bringing in this sort of level of this next level, actorly thing to, you know, these movies that don't really traffic in that level of, like, fierce commitment, you know, sort of thing.

So that still does feel like very much his thing. And I feel like that's probably what he's going to be bringing to the bride. So, sorry, the bride. exclamation, the bright exclamation point. Yeah. No, I hope that's a fun time. I hope he's fun in it. The Thor thing is interesting because I feel like I fully memory hold.

I haven't seen that movie, but fully memory hold that he is in it because I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about him in it. I saw people saying, there were some people who said that he was the best thing in it. And... I don't begrudge that opinion. I don't like that movie kind of in general. I don't like the Taika Thor movies. I very much prefer the Kenneth Branagh

Thor movie to the Tyca Thor movies. But I definitely feel like there were people who were like, the rest of this movie's a mess, but Christian Bale is giving a like Shakespearean performance, which he kind of is in style, if nothing else. you know what I mean but to what end yeah okay so sorry

I derailed you you were taking us back to the movie I kind of would like us to think more of this as the quintessential Christian Bale performance than like the type of thing you're describing because I think he fits so well into the atmosphere but also like it's I think we use we overuse the word iconic all the time, but I do think this is a genuinely iconic performance from him

that doesn't do any of those eye-rolly things that we maybe don't like in other performances. It feels a little bit less inwardly focused, which is an odd thing to say about this character, but I think the way he performs Patrick is very much isn't really calling attention to his choices as much as it is drawing you a picture of this character. I think of Patrick Baitman much, much more than I think of Christian Bale watching this movie. And I think for whatever reason, that's not what I get out of what he's doing in American Hustle or... The Fighter. Or The Fighter, really, yeah.

Or, you know, the Thor movie or anything like that. I think it's of a piece with what the rest of the movie is doing. I think sometimes when you have an actor who not to shit on Christian Bale to compliment him, but like when you have an actor who can be a little bit more of a showboat, it does feel like they are on their island doing their performance and it's not, you know, in conversation with everything around him. And that's entirely not true about what's happening in American Psycho and how funny he is and how funny he is and how funny the. movie is because of it and yeah there's no earthly way he would have

been nominated for an Oscar for this but this is why he has the buzz for it you know well and also like I think he would have deserved it you know what I mean I think that you look at the nominees that year right this is

2000 so this is the year that Russell Crow wins for a gladiator. He defeats Tom Hanks for Castaway, Javier Bardem for before Night Falls, Jeffrey Rush for Quills, and Ed Harris for Pollock. So,

I mean, what do you like genuinely, what would you have booted? Were you inclined to nominate Christian Bale, who would you have booted? I mean, The only performance I don't really remember much respect is Ed Harris and Pollock.

But, like, Ed Harris was not going to not get nominated for Pollock, even though that's a very small movie. He directed that movie. He almost just won and was almost maybe last minute, you know, usurped. But I would boot Ed Harris, given the choice. But I also would say the only person I would maybe vote for over him. him is Tom Hanks. Over bail? Yeah.

Yeah, I think I agree with you. If you put them on a ballot together, I would probably mark my box next to Christian Bail. So let me bring up mine. I know mine is going to be probably very crazy. 2000. There was a lot of unnominated greatness in that one. So, yeah, this year, Ruffalo is my winner that year, for you can count.

on me. Still is infuriating to me that if these people who voted for Laura Linney quite deservedly, you clearly were watching the movie. You nominated, you know, the screenplay. You nominated Linney for actress. I don't understand how you can't extend that to Mark Ruffalo, who is giving such a great performance. I know you don't like this movie, but I think the last-minute snub of Michael Douglas and Wonder Boys was very surprising. He's great in that year. Particularly because he also had traffic that year and the, and Catherine Zeta Jones was also, um, snubbed on Oscar nomination morning, uh, in supporting actress.

She was very much in the mix for that, um, that year. So you would, sometimes I think you think, oh, the Oscar voters would love to nominate this, you know, couple. I remember the year that, um, Brad, Pitt and Angelina were both in the conversation. Was it the year of a Mighty Heart that was the year of Benjamin Button, maybe? Maybe. Those are at least close.

A Mighty Heart's a summer movie, so that's hard to pin down. I know. But I remember people being like, oh, well, they're obviously going to nominate Brad Pitt and Angelina in the same year. Oh, no, because they were nominated in the same year. Because that was the year she was nominated for Changeling. Yes, never mind. And neither of them was ever in a million years going to win. Right.

Okay, so my 2000 ballot, it's Mark Ruffalo for you can count on me. Tom Hanks for Castaway. Christian Bale for American Psycho. Billy crewed up for Jesus' son. And then I have Michael Douglas for Wonderboys and Ed Harris for Pollock, like, jockeying for that fifth spot. But I also have Jamie Bell for Billy Elliott. So good.

And Colin Farrell for Tigerland. Which I still haven't seen. Oh, I just did the... I mean, I had seen it already, but I rewatched it recently for the Schumacher draft that I did. And Farrell's so good in that. So it's a tremendous year for, like, talent. They just, you know... And that, like, I'm not going to shit on Russell Crow.

Russell Crow gives an iconic performance in Gladiator. I just don't like Gladiator all that much. Right. I think Jeffrey Rush is giving a lot of foofura and quills and whatever. in Quills is not my fave. And Javier Burdame is good in Before Night Falls. I think he just sort of falls in the 5 to 10 range for me, rather than the 1 to 5 range. I think it's a very strong year.

So, you know, obviously, Bale, it's just, this is not a movie that is going to appeal to a wide enough swath, especially, certainly not the Academy in the year 2000. Not the Academy. The Academy that nominates Chukalot is not going to nominate America. It's like, oh, I'm sorry. I know you like Chocolat. Like, I don't even mean to shade Choccalat, but it's just like, it's two different worlds, man. It's two different things. A few names I would add.

Yes. Gary Oldman and the Contender. Oh, as a lead. Interesting. Yeah, I think that's a lead performance. Okay. Okay. I have him on my supporting ballot.

I know this is a point of contention for the actual campaign. And, you know, Gary Oldman almost took his name off that movie. much like the other movies. Malkovich is insane in Shadow of the Vampire, a movie that is both way better than everyone remembers and also not. And then I would also add my left field mention is Mike White in Chuck and Buck.

Oh, sure. Totally. Totally. I can get that. I think also this was the year where Benicio del Toro on route to winning supporting actor for traffic gets a lead actor nomination at SAG that year. So there was, you know, there was a lot of borderline talk about his role because that movie is obviously, you know, split up into sections and he's very much the lead of his section of the movie. But those are always, you know. I think he's the closest thing to a lead that that movie maybe has, even more so than Michael Douglas. But I think that's probably true.

You also, is there a lead in Best in show? Probably not, right? It's probably a pure ensemble. It's not like waiting for Guffman, where Corky is the lead character and everybody. I mean, I guess you would have to default to say Christopher Gest, because the thing is why you feel like, well, no, is that everybody has basically a scene partner in all of them.

Sure. Like, it's so many couples, even like Fred Willard is on the judge's panel. with the other actor. But guest's character doesn't really have an arc. You know what I mean? Whereas, like, Jane Lynch has an arc, and Parker Posey and her husband, whose name I can never remember,

have an arc. And obviously, Catherine O'Hara and Eugene Levy have an arc. And Harlan is just sort of, like, you know, singing the... I'll get over down in... Louisiana, where the hop is... This gets a green, we all are.

This is man, let's go. That movie's so great. What a great movie. Best Christopher Guest movie. We love Christian Bale, though. Yes, we do. Once again, I think we're out of the gate with our early in the year episodes that we're, like, going to be filling up the ballot already for the next. I know.

I know. God, we never learn. You got to do some crap. Can we talk about Reese? I was going to say, let's talk about the supporting cast. then obviously we'll get into the race. Okay, let's get to Reese. Yes. Great supporting cast, a very well-chosen cast. I think picking people like Justin Thoreau and Josh Lucas and Matt Ross as you're sort of like, you know, faceless, nameless Wall Street folk. In the year 2000, too,

it feels like so smart, so ahead of the curve. Jared Leto. Like, Jared Leto really like. Jared Leto is the one that you kind of root for the anti-hero to take down. Maybe not in the way that he does, but... Yeah, I don't... I mean... We don't want people like axe-murdering people, but it's just like, oh, that fuck a guy. Yeah, except that, like, he's the least objectionable of all of those people. Like, Josh Lucas is, like, well, sure, but I think we maybe get less of, you know,

I think we see, like, Justin Thoreau and Josh Lucas are being, like, absolutely, you know, awful. Whereas, like, Jared Leto as Paul Allen is just sort of being pretentious and, you know, status-obsessed and all the things that would irk Patrick. And Matt Ross is the gay guy. Which, like, honestly, I think this movie, I'm not saying, like, it's progressive in terms of being they have the gay guy. It's not, but. It's not, yeah. I mean, it's in service of showing you home up of the guys. Are you saying at least he doesn't kill him?

Well, he doesn't kill him. But, like, I was kind of bracing for it to be worse than it was, and it wasn't. I liked the idea that the only thing powerful enough to thwart Patrick Bateman and his murderous intentions is gay panic. And I don't know whether that's a statement or not, but here we are. Getting a hange in the bathroom, potentially. Sure. As I said before, I think Gwinterner in her single scene just kills it. Just is absolutely tremendous.

This was during the big sort of Caras Seymour moment in culture. Thank you. I'm having my eggs harvested. There's that five-year period where it's you've got male, American Psycho, dancer in the Dark, adaptation, gangs of New York, right? Where it's, she's just sort of in a lot of very major things. And then I can't remember the last time I saw her in anything. I'm not sure. Anyway.

Defoe is good, though I think it's maybe one of the few Willem Defoe performances that I have nothing to really say about. It's a very tooth-forward performance. He's sort of aggressively smiling at Patrick a lot in this evening. Immediately left the set and went to go be the Green Goblin. Yeah, there you go. But I think one of the more underrated, well, let's talk about Chloe's, Chloe 70 is great. Chloe Seventy and Matt Ross in this movie together helped draw me towards the last days of disco-ness of it because this is another movie that talks about how like 80s Manhattanite, you know, yuppie culture was sort of feeding off of and ultimately bleeding dry the actual culture happening in New York City at the time. Also an era being used as a metaphor that is ultimately timeless.

There are so many scenes in American Psycho where they're like at a club where it's like people who are very obviously queer-coded and punk-coded and it's just these like these Wall Street leeches just sort of like making their way through them like not appreciating anything, not, you know. And Last Days of Disco was about that, but obviously from a much more arch and comedic angle.

But I think it's interesting to have Chloe and Matt Ross in this movie that sort of, to me at least, draws that line between the two of them. They're good at playing Republicans. What can we say? What can we say? What can we say? Reese Witherspoon, though, who in her performance is like perfectly funny,

odd that she's there, but she's also perfectly cast. And it's weird that people were so like beside themselves when like legally blonde happens because it's like, well, this, this is very close. This is a very underrated career stepping stone moment for her, because she's got her big year in 98, 99, where she gets Pleasantville, Cruel intentions, and Election, all of which really helped to define her as a new sort of movie star, but they are all very much high school roles.

You know what I mean? and American Psycho is the role that sort of transitions her out of this, where she's, you know, she's the fiancé to this Wall Street guy and she still obviously is young, but she has now, she now feels like she's sort of stepping into this world of more adult roles. And while she's not part of any of the more sorted moments of this movie, she still gets to sort of attach her star to something that is very artistic and dangerous and cool. And I think also the fact that I remember watching this movie and being like, oh, wow, that's, Rees Wetherspoon's a pretty big star to have in such a small role. You know what I mean? So already it felt like she was a big enough star that she could take smaller roles

and sort of bring something to them, do you know what I mean? And then Legally Blonde happens the very next year. and her career, you know, takes off. So. Can I try to venture to guess the six Reese titles? Yes, because we need to do our quiz. So yes. All right.

What are our six Reese movies that we have done in our 304 episodes? Well, obviously this. Obviously this. Bannana. Rendition. Rendition. That was the first. That was the first reason that we did.

Yes. Yes. I almost said Pleasantville, but that's over on the Patreon. Yeah. The... Oh, God. In my memory... We didn't do, like, The Good Lie.

No. Yet. Good movie. Underrated movie. Didn't you get released? The same Tiff that I saw Wild. Wild, I just rewatched. which is like taking a scoring pad to your heart.

Like, it's just like a special. I was just like, I need to pull this band-aid off. Yeah. I need this. Yeah. You get it. I do. I do.

Okay, but now I'm fumbling for what her other movie. We didn't do Penelope. We didn't do Penelope. Think, um, think, uh, costume drama based on, there you go. Think, um, well, we talked about how, uh, when we talked about how, uh, when we talked about Leonardo DiCaprio trying to break out of his teen role. Who did I compare him to? Ooh.

Another teen, teen heartthrob who tried to break out of his heartthrob mold by taking a lot of really interesting movies. Not Gosling. This not being one of them. No. Robert Pattinson. Oh, right. Water for Elephants. Yep.

there is a filmmaking legend who has a movie in the works that is maybe going to come out this year but probably next year where the title and the lead actress sound very much similar to each other what am I thinking of

it's not Terrence Malick it's no much lighter oh how do you know it is James L. Brooks James L. Brooks yeah Ella McKay, starting Emma McKay. That's not allowed.

And then finally, we just did another movie by this director since this one. Not too long ago, maybe like six or so episodes ago. You know that's like the hardest question you can ask. I know, I know. But we also did another McConaissance movie recently and this was a mud. Oh, it's mud. It's mud. It's mud. There you go. Okay. So, as we always do

when we reach our sixth time covering an actor or actress, I give Chris a little quiz. Based on these movies, the answer will be one or more of these movies. Once again, I ask you to write them down so that I don't have to keep reminding you of what ones they are. So once again, the answers will be one or more of Red Indition, Vanity Fair, Water for Elephants, How Do You Know, Mud, and American Psycho.

Are you ready? Yes. All right, which one is the longest? Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair, 141 minutes, which is the shortest? American Psycho? American Psycho at 102 minutes. It's a fairly long series of movies.

Yeah. Best Rotten Tomato score of the bunch. It's not particularly close Mud? Mud, 98% on rotten tomatoes. Oh, wow, mud has a 98. Close away the field. Worst Rotten Tomatoes.

How do you know? How do you know, 31%. Yeah. Biggest box office, domestic. Water for elephants. 58.7 million for water for elephants. Very good. Lowest box office domestic.

This one was pretty close. Um Vanity Fair Not Vanity Fair Mud Not mud Wow How do you know

Not how do you know Fine rendition Not rendition American Psycho American Psycho See the thing about American Psycho No I'm sorry You're totally right

It is rendition I skip that Rendition at 9.7 million American Psycho was second level Yikes. Rendition only made 9 million. Wow. No one wanted to see it. Yeah, American Psycho was second lowest at 15 million. Which is great for that movie.

Yeah. Which movie was produced under the Sony Pictures umbrella? Rendition. No. How do you know? How do you know, Columbia? Which movie has the same cinematographer as Barbie? Rodrigo Prieto.

It's how do you know? It's not. Vanity Fair? No. Rendition. No. Water for elephants. Water for elephants.

Rodrigo Preeto did the cinematographer for water for elephants. Which movie has the same cinematographer as If? Oh, I don't even know who shot if. So I'll say, how do you know? It is how do you know you're never going to guess who the cinematographer is. Oh, no, wait. It's someone that, like, how did you make a movie look that ugly? because they're always gorgeous.

Is it like Lubesky? It's Janish Kaminsky. Oh, my God. Yes. I tell you how Janish Kaminsky can make something that's completely ugly looking is what was that movie he directed that was in the F Cinema Score Draft that we did. Oh, right, right, right. I can't remember which one it was, but it was always bad. Lost Souls or something?

Yes, Lost Souls, yeah, yeah. All right. Which movie has the same composer as Water and from Canada Water? Oh. Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair. Michael Dana. The piano's Michael Dana.

Did the music for both of those. Which movie has the same cinematographer as nine? That is Dion Bebe, which is... Vanity Fair? Nope. Rendition? Rendition, yes. Which two movies won Golden Satellite Awards

for best costumes. Vanity Fair and Water for Elephants. Yes. Which movie had two Teen Choice Award nominations but didn't win any. Water for Elephant. Not Water for Elephants. How do you know? Nope, not how do you know.

Wow. If it was American Psycho, that would be amazing. But I think it's Vanity Fair. Not Vanity. No, it's Rendition. Rendition has the psychotic teen choice award. Jake and Reese are both nominated at rendition, but they don't win. Which movie had three Teen Choice Award nominations, but did win one of them?

Water for elephants. Water for elephants. What won? Who won? Robert Pattinson. Robert Pattinson. Very good. Which movie was released in Sagittarius season?

So, December slash late November. How do you know? How do you know? Very good. Yes. Which movie has IMDB keywords that include? include Penthouse Magazine, Wanted for Murder, and Nickname as Title. Mud.

Mud. Yes. Which movie has IMDB keywords that include female rear nudity, face mask, and based on novel. Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair. Eileen Atkins with a rump shaker shot. Which movie has IMDB keywords that include rivalry, corporate executive, and hiding evidence? American Psycho. American Psych. I really thought I was going to fool you with those. because I was going for American Psycho

similarities with the first two and how do you know, with the third one. All right. Which two movies feature Stars of the Hours? Rendition. Meryl Streep. And... Um, who's in Vanity Fair?

You literally just mentioned this person. We did? You did. Oh, Eileen Ackon. Duh, duh, duh, the iconic flower shop lady. Yes, Vanity Fair. All right. And just buckets of roses.

What's her line about it took Richard how long to write it? You know, it took him eight years to write it. I guess it must take just as long to read. Oh, that's so good. All right. Which two movies feature stars of Velvet Gold Mine? Uh, American Psycho. Yes.

And... No, not how do you know? Not water for elephants. Rendition? Not rendition. Vanity Fair. Vanity Fair, Jonathan Rees Myers, is in Vanity Fair. Ah, yes.

Which two movies feature stars of shattered glass. American Psycho. Chloe Seventy. And rendition. Peter Sarsgaard, very good. Yes. Which movie opened the same weekend as Pain and Gain? Not pain and gain.

Water for elephants. Nope. Mud. Mud, yes. Which movie opened the same weekend as Tron Legacy? How do you know? How do you know? Yes.

About which film did Peter Travers say, What a cast indeed and what a bust as a persuasive drama. Rendition. Rendition. Very good. Which film did A.V. Club's Tasha Robinson say, It's a tastefully managed, passionless melodrama, full of brooding looks and reasonably sweet moments, but typified by a scant, scantly characterized central couple who bring no sense of engagement to their relationship.

Water for elephants. Water for elephants. Snip-snap. About which film did Salon's Stephanie Zaharick say, toothless and empty? Oh, wow. Vanity Fair. American Psycho, surprisingly. Wow, Stephanie.

Quite a few people who were not at first blush super impressed with American Psycho, which probably contributed to the fact that it did not have any insurgency potential as an awards play. But here we are. Here we are. What else did I write down? Oh, I wanted to talk about very briefly, This is a nominee at the Fangoria Chainsaw Awards, which is the thing I see... Was it nominated for Best Chainsaw? Yeah, I mean, when you are a movie that prominently features a chainsaw,

I feel like you are, like, courting the Fangoria Chainsaw Awards. This is an award that I see every once in a while on an IMDB tab, awards tab. Christian Bale won the Best Actor Award at the Fangoria Chainsaw Awards. Beating out Jude Law in a movie... called Immortality. I've never heard of this. It was originally titled The Wisdom of Crocodiles. Never heard of it. Vin Diesel in Pitch Black, Willam Defoe in Shadow of the Vampire, and Kevin Bacon in Hollow Man. Interesting. I think it's a deserved win, although Willam Defoe is obviously Oscar nominated in this. It is nominated for Best Score, for John Kale's score. It loses to a tie. Well, first of all, Clint Mansell is also nominated for Rec Room for a Dream and somehow doesn't win, which is crazy. Jerry Goldsmith nominated for Hollow Man doesn't win. The winners are, how do we pronounce this person's name?

I'm just going to say, Mr. Keelar, Wojich-Kilar for the Ninth Gate. Roman Polanski is the ninth gate. And then Howard Shore for the Cell. Been a while since we've gotten a shout-out to the weird gays who love this. I know. Mary Heron and Gwynnever Turner are nominated for the screenplay, best screenplay. They, along with Pitch Black, Requiem for a Dream, and The Cell all lose to Shadow of the Vampire. Chloe Seven-Ye is nominated for Best Supporting Actress, along with Jennifer Connelly for Requiem for A Dream, Erica Learson for Book of Shadows Player, Witch, 2, and Barbara Jefford for the Ninth Gate. They all lose two, Parker Posey for Scream 3, which,

Great call. Is a rad one. American Psycho wins best wide release film, which you chuckled when you said wide release. So, uh... Opened wide.

That's just so... Well, it paid off at the Fangoria Chainsaw Awards. It beat out Final Destination, pitch black, Shadow of the Vampire, and The Cell. Those are all the Chainsaw Award nominations

that it got. Thank you for indulging me. I suppose the critical reception, we should mention, you know, We can talk about 2000 Sundance a little bit. Yes. I feel like seeing this movie in a festival environment, especially like Sundance at that time, couldn't have done it any favors.

You don't think? You know, if people had seen it in a press screening or, you know, because I'm sure that this played like, no, it played the premiere section. So it wouldn't have been like midnight. Midnight. When your brain's competing for space, you know. I though would feel like something. the movies that pop best at festivals are the ones that are just absolutely

unlike anything else you're seeing. And I would imagine that American Psycho would This is a very particular something else though. Sure, fair. That's fair. It's an already off-putting something else that I think, you know, I don't think that that's universally true for movies that like festivals are bad for them. I certainly don't think that. But I think for this movie

it could have had a better runway. It's an interesting Sundance. You can count on me and Girl Fight share the grand jury prize. You can count on me, I think, is the superior of those two, although Lord knows I love Karen Kusama. But you can count on me as to me one of the all-time. Yeah, I just think that you can count on me as one of my like 10 favorite movies of all time. Not just Christian Bale's nude body, but this is a very very. gay Sundance. You have movies

like Broken Hearts Club, but I'm a cheerleader, Chuck and Buck, Eyes of Tammy Faye, Psycho Beach Party was at this Sundance. Boy, the room, which is not canonically gay, but like you can see Scott Kahn's butt in that movie, so

that works. Yeah, I've had a good time at this Sundance Film Festival. Love in basketball there. To be able to see, but I'm a cheerleader at the Sundance Film Festival. which that movie was disrespected in its

time and I'm glad that people have come around on it because it is really good. I love it a lot. Broken Hearts Club, of course, one of my preferred quote-unquote bad gay rom-coms of the of the aughts, which

I don't ascribe things like good or bad to those movies. I love them all for being just what they are. I came across one, a title the other day that seemed to belong to that, and I can't remember for the life of me, but now I got to seek it out again because I was like, there's one I haven't seen. There's one from my, my beloved genre that I haven't seen, so I want to check that out. It was also a National Border of Review, special recognition for excellence

in filmmaking. We've talked about this lineup before, I guess, when we did Nurse Betty, because nurse betty's in there. Sure, sure, sure. Also, receiving the special recognition for excellence in filmmaking, Best in Show, Chuck and Buck,

Girl Fight, the Ethan Hawk Hamlet, Nurse Betty, Requiem for a Dream, the Bath House movie shower, Snatch, and Two Family House. This was before they started

doing a top 10 indie movies, and so this was sort of what they had instead of that. I want to ask you, Did you ever make it to New York City and see the musical, the American Psycho Musical, that people still to this day are very upset that it did not get its due? I did not see it either, and I lived in the city at the time. I think there are very, I mean, it's, you know, there are degrees to these things. But I think, you know, that was a musical that I was confused that it was struggling.

I guess it was just struggling with tourists, you know, because theater people loved that show. Yes. I genuinely think the title, like, freaks people out. Well, and it's like he is murdering people on a Broadway stage. Sure. But, like, theater people at least. Well, sure.

But Sweeney Todd also, you know, well, Sweeney Todd was also extremely expensive when it was originally mounted um yeah but yeah like it was a theater people show more so but like like you said they will still talk about that musical benjamin walker annalie ashford um helena york oh my god helena york so who played which role elena york i believe was the rees witherspoon am i wrong that annalie ashford was in it or was she also in it well see the thing was it was originally in the u k and a workshop it here, and then I think there were even famous people in Chicago

with it. It was Alice Ripley. Right. All right, hold on. Yeah, Annalie Ashford is nowhere in sight on this page, so I was totally wrong. It is Helena, New York. God, we do love Helena, New York. Don't you love that the other two got that Phantom Emmy nomination? I think it's all because of the line, fucking gay people. Fucking gay people.

That's such a good one. That was one of those weird fringe cases where, like, it wasn't eligible for most of the awards because its season was, for the most part, last year. It was only these, like, four straggler episodes, so you could only get nominated for, like, episode-specific achievements. And it really feels like for the Emmy nominations, it managed truly everyone who was an Emmy voter that watched the episode did vote for it. Well, and because it got a writing nomination last year as well, which I, I had totally forgotten that the AIDS play episode was also nominated for Best Writing. So it has kind of a specific distinction of being the rare show that got two writing episodes in a row for episodes from the same season, which is interesting. I miss that show.

I miss that show to this day. I know whatever it ended in a heap of accusations. Wait, Jonathan Bailey was in the original London cast. Oh, interesting. Not as Patrick Bateman. Matt Smith was Patrick Bateman, which, like, that is... Pass. I'm not always the biggest Matt Smith fan, but, like, that probably works for that character.

Yeah. Yeah. I do like Benjamin Walker, though. Benjamin Walker, I saw on Broadway doing Bloody, Bloody Andrew Jackson in the title role, and he was so, so good. Yeah, Jonathan Bailey would have been fun. Playing one of the, you know, Wall Street dudes. Anyway. Anyway, last thoughts on the movie.

Let's break out my notebook. Shall we? I wrote Paul Allen as a hyphenate because to me I wrote it sounds like Jean-Marc or Jean-Claude. Paul Allen in the book is called Paul Owen, I guess. And I wonder if it did seem like there was a naming of characters in this movie where everybody was named someone. notable, you know, because there was, I think there are, who are some other characters in this? Because Paul Allen, obviously, is the Microsoft guy. There was somebody else in there.

I was like, oh, that's an actual person. I can't think of it now. Anyway, the way they describe food in this movie is so funny. They go to this, like, the way they depict restaurants is so wild. There's a scene where he and Reese are at lunch at this, like, fairly swanky-looking lunch place. and, like, it has paper tablecloths because, so, and crayons for him to, like, draw on the tablecloth. Like, everything, again, the whole thing is, like, plausibly unreal. There's a scene with him, I think it's the scene with him and Paul Allen at dinner, where he talks about the mud soup and charcoal arugula, and I know charcoal is a thing that is in fine dining, and porkloin with lime jello.

And just, like, everything just sounds like an active parody of this sort of, like, pretentious fine dining. The Ed Gein line, where he's like, do you know what Ed Gein said about women? And someone's like, Ed Gein, is that the matrietya Canal Bar? I wrote down so many lines. There's a lot of really, really good lines. I don't think dyslexia is a virus. Can you keep it down?

I'm trying to do drugs. Yeah. really good movie, really good movie depicting really awful types of people. And I will just say, if you exist in 2024 and you watch American Psycho and you see more than two points of reference that are similar to your own life, take stock and sit with yourself for a minute and ask yourself, where have I gone wrong? What's happening here? What's going on? That's all. You don't need to have 12 steps for your skin care regimen.

It's just what I'll say. Should we move on to the IMTP game? Please, save me from myself. No one will ever talk to me. Before, much like Patrick Bateman, you are literally washing the gay off of your gloves. No, when he goes to kill him and he's like, oh, I have a crush on you too. He goes and he washes his gloves at the sick. He goes and washes the gay off his gloves.

me any less gay to refuse to take part in some of the aspects of what has become of queer culture right now. That's all I will say. Sure. Sure. Why don't you tell the listeners with the IMDB? Sure, he says. Brushes me off with a sure. I'm not brushing you off. I'm moving the episode of law. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress, try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for if any of those titles are television shows or voice-only performances or non-acting credits. We mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints.

Chris, stop doing Coke in the bathroom, apparently, as that's an integral part of queer culture. I can't do Coke in the bathroom. You're too loud. It's fair. All right. In order to show that I am not brushing you aside, would you like to give or guess first? I'll give first. All right. Who do you got? Who you got?

So I went into Mary Heron's filmography. We didn't really talk about Mary Heron a ton in this, but she did a movie. Listener, if you can get your hands on, I shot Andy Warhol, go watch that fucking cool out. Is it hard to find? Is it hard to acquire? I think it was out of print for a while. That's too bad. It was on the channel for a while, but I don't think it's still there.

Um, uh, Secret Canadian Mary Haran. I'm very sorry, Mary that I, uh, uh, was so presumptuous. Really interesting cast in I shot Andy Warhol down to like Justin Thoreau's in that movie as well. Um, uh, Andy Warhol is, um, Jared Harris. Yeah, Jared Harris. And is so, I, Jared Harris is like, what's that dude's name anytime that Jared Harris comes up? But Jared Harris is also so good, but like Lily Taylor in that movie, next level. Lily Taylor should have been nominated. for an Oscar. I know that, like, it was a very, very small movie, but she's so good in that. Steven Dorff is in that. Peter Friedman from Succession is in that. Michael Imperioli. But the person from that cast who I've chosen for you, in fact, is Ms. Martha Plimpton.

Ooh, Martha Plimpton. How fun. Yeah. The Goonies. The Goonies. Very good. 200 cigarettes? No. She's very fun. That's a movie that I keep meaning to watch again, and I've got to pull the trigger on that because it's been too... I kept talking about 200 cigarettes when you watched Love Story. I was like, this is me.

This is me watching that movie. I hate you, motherfuckers. Another movie from, I believe, early in 2000, right? Was that another January? Was that a January of 2000? Yeah, I think it was. I think so. All right, so no, no 200 cigarettes.

Cheers having a party. What else is Martha in? I guess I shot Andy Warhol, I will guess. No, I shot Andy Warhol. So your years are, 1986, 19... I haven't gotten too wrong. Yeah, you said 200 cigarettes. Oh, I thought 200 cigarettes was on there.

No. That sucks. I was so happy for a moment in time. Sorry, no. You need three more. Your years are 1986, 1988, 1988, and 1990. It's one of them, is it, it's not straight people, which would be a great term. What is straight people?

I don't know. Used people. No, it's not used people. Running on empty. Running on empty is one, yes. What are the years that are still remaining? 86 and 96. Okay.

Hmm. Parent? No, it's not parenthood. Because that's like 88, 89. Right. 80. No, maybe 89. 86.

Shy people is the name of that movie. Used people is also a movie. I got to look up shy people. What's the Cross Creek? Is she in? You're thinking of it's something else.

It's not Cross Creek, but it's also not. But it's like a painter. poster where it's a lot of people in profile and it's the woods. Shy people is definitely a movie but is not one of them. Am I getting the poster right for this movie?

No, you're not. I don't know what, I don't know what one you're thinking of. I'm thinking of the 1986 movie. Oh, yeah, no. The 1986 movie is a star vehicle based on actually, interestingly enough, a novel written by Justin Thoreau's, I want to say, Uncle?

Henry David Thoreau. Not Henry David Thoreau. It's a movie I read in college in a literature class in college. Sure. But I've never seen... Is it... It's not like John Irving. It is not John Irving.

It is... I think it's the same person she starred with in Running on Empty, though. River Phoenix. Yeah, he's not the... star of the movie, but River Phoenix is in it. Ooh, what the hell? God, they must have known each other very well. Did they date in real life order?

I think they did. Yeah, I think that's right. Oh, God, why can't I think of this? I love River Phoenix. This is directed by a famous Australian filmmaker. Peter Weir, Mosquito Coast. There you go, mosquito coast. Have you ever seen the Mosquito Coast?

Yes. I don't like it. Okay. All right. So your last one is 1996. This is a movie we've talked about a lot in that I really liked this movie, and I recently revisited it, and I think it holds up more than it has any right to. Which is also what I say about chasing Amy, but it's obviously... Oh, is it like of that? Is it like beautiful girls? It is beautiful girls, in fact.

She plays Michael Rappaport's ex-girlfriend who just refuses to take him back. And we love her for that. She's good in that. I like Martha Plimpton a lot. I wish she had kept making movies. I know she had a big success on the stage, and that was very good. I want to go back, though. I want to watch Running on Empty.

I've never seen Running on Empty. Oh, Joe. It's so good. Is it? It's like. I think I just watched it because it was like on the channel and I was like, I should catch up to this. I like River Phoenix. And I was like sobbing.

Yeah. I mean, that's my reticence to watch any of the sort of old River Phoenix movies. This just makes me sad. You know what I mean? Well, yeah. It's just like the type of just straight American drama that's like, we complain about we don't have it anymore. But it's just so well done. Yeah.

It's a good movie. You will like that movie. We mentioned the National Border of Review honoring American Psycho with special achievement and excellence of filmmaking, yada, yada, yada, their best actor pick, someone we have done, but very early in the show for Before Night Falls, Mr. Javier Bredem. Ah, Javier Bardem. I don't know why I made that sound. You did the new meme person, the Italian person, that's like, The best, the best, we love them, love, love. Skyfall.

Correct. No country for old men. Correct. Um, All right, where do the like mainstream Bardems come? part of me says that it might be beautiful. I don't know why I think that. So like before Nightfall is an option.

Being the Ricardo's is an option. The counselor, I don't think so, but like that's an option. Girl, there's franchises, too. There's a lot of movies. Javier Bredem is in a lot of movies. He's in a lot of movies. He's in a lot of movies. I'm going to say

Dune the first Dune that he's in Incorrect, no Dune Part 1 Well then I doubt it'll be Dune Part 2 Um I'm going to say beautiful Beautiful's correct Yes Something

Something spoke to me All right James Plunt So I have one Yes one strike Two to go One to go One to go

Because you have skyfall, no country for old men, and beautiful, and you incorrectly guessed Dune part one. I did. Okay. I'm just going to say Being the Ricardo's. Being the Ricardo is incorrect. Your year is 2004. The Sea Inside? God damn. How do you have that movie right there? It's 2004. It's right there. You know that the Sea Inside is a 2004 movie.

It won the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Films. in my ear. I say 2004, Javier Bardem, and everybody else is like, oh, collateral. Oh, no, not me. But also, like, we're the only two people that remember the C-Inside, especially that the sea inside was campaigned for Javier Bardem, but is nominated for makeup. I also don't revere collateral like a lot of people do. Well, no, do I, but, oh, no, wait, did it win?

Oh, no, it won foreign language. Foreign language. Yeah. Makeup in 2004 was Lemony Snicket? Uh, I think so. Hold, please. Because I remember that was one of the ones that was... Yeah, this is a Lemony Snicket year, but did Lever-Snickett win?

That was one of the years where they handed out makeup in the aisles. Ooh, yikes. Remember? Remember those shameful days? I can never place when those years are mostly because I memory hold them. Yes, Lemony Snicket was the winner. Can you remember the one other movie? So it's lemony Snicket, it's the sea inside. Mar-Ardento.

And in 0-4, the other makeup nominee, is it the passion of the Christ? The passion of the god. Mother fucker. Cursed. God damn cursed. As I am always saying, I want more gross nominations in best makeup. up, not like this. It's not like this.

That's gross. I don't mean this. All right. That, I believe, is our episode. If you want more, This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at ThisHadoscurbuzz.com. You can follow us on Twitter at Had underscore Oscar Buzz on Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz and on Patreon at Patreon.com slash This Had Oscar Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? Letterboxed, what have you?

I have been, as you've probably noticed, I have been tweeting more. I've fallen back into the pattern of tweeting about the election, which can only end in horror and, and me getting an argument earnestly about something. Getting in an earnest argument with someone who you fundamentally agree with. Yes, the Twitter experience. So let's all hope that I get past that Faye is fairly soon. You can also find me every day on vulture.com doing the Cinematrix and covering the Emmys with Gold Rush. And I should say, coming back very soon, the movie's Fantasy League. Get ready. By the time this episode airs, it could be back. Motherfucker, time is flying. It's flying. I am on Twitter and Letterbox at Chris Fie Fial. We'd like to thank

Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork. Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Meevious for their technical guidance. Please remember to... Oh, and Taylor Cole for our theme music. Yay. Is that not in this copy? We love Taylor. Um, uh, please remember to rate like and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts wherever else you get those podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcast visibility. So give us facts about your favorite music artist before whacking us in the head with that fifth star, baby. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. I don't know.