This Had Oscar Buzz - 305 – Peterloo (with Fran Hoepfner)

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

With the upcoming return of Mike Leigh to cinemas with Hard Truths, we invited writer and Fran Mag creator Fran Hoepfner to join us to talk about his last theatrical effort, 2019’s Peterloo. The film tells the story of the buildup to the Peterloo massacre, in which years of political movement to get parliamentary representation for the … Continue reading "305 – Peterloo (with Fran Hoepfner)"

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Liberty for death. Liberty or death. Liberty or death. Liberty or death. Hello and welcome to the This Head Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that can get dinner reservations at Dorcia on short notice. Every week on This Head Oscar Buzz will be. be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty academy award aspirations,

but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my orator extraordinaire. Chris File, hello, Chris. I've been called worse. You've been called to this meeting to, uh, in short order and, listen, I'll take, I'll take, I'll take being a real Rory Kaneer type. This was the first time. Wait, I'm going to bring in our guest before I mention anything more about Rory Keneer because I don't want to discourage a free conversation. We are an anti-making the guest's wait podcast.

I get so nervous when I don't introduce a guest right away, and it just ruins me. Okay, we have a first-time guest here on this had Oscar Buzz. We have been saying for years, oh my God, you have to come on our podcast, and then dropping the ball for various reasons. My fault, my fault. And I think it's happening for the exact right movie. I think so, too. All right, we're going to get into it.

I agree. Good friend, freelance writer, editor-in-chief of Fran Magh, Fran Hofner, welcome to this head off to Krabuz. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here for this particular movie. Yeah. This one we've had sort of pigeonholed for you for a while. I know that like we've been you know anxious and eager to do this movie but but it was like we gotta do this with Fran or else we're not going to do it so um what I was going to say like combining two thoughts together because the second that hard truth went into production I was like there you go well when it gets released that's when we're doing Peterloo there you go there you go and then you know just combining the thoughts because I feel like you are one of our preeminent lee heads a huge leehead yeah

I've got my big Leon Lee book next to me, for reference, just to be safe. But, yes, I'm obsessed with that little man. But speaking of obsessed with that little man, this maybe was the first time I'd seen a Rory Kinear movie since I saw him birth himself in men. And it's a whole... That movie is not his fault. That movie is not his case. It's absolutely not his fault, but you also cannot take it out of your mind. You know what I mean?

It's like, that will be burned in my brain for... Rory Kinier forever. I'm just like, I'm never getting those images out of my mind. So that's this was... I never saw men. You're fine. And yet also... Everyone said that. Everyone said, you know what? Don't bother. And yet I would kill to hear your reaction to it, but also you're fine. So the dichotomy of weird movies. It's so funny that like, I mean, Alex Garland in general, who I really like, but like the trajectory of his of his career is just funny.

to me because men is such a calamity and then civil war which like wasn't universally liked but was like liked more broadly than I kind of expected it to and kind of underplays it a little bit you know what I mean like I think of the people who were most dissatisfied deeply frustrating to the people who are most dissatisfied by civil war were the people who were like why did you not go further, like, with this premise? Because it's not the apoliticism of that movie that is so deeply frustrating, that there are no complete thoughts in that movie. There's, like, a lot of ideas that come up and then get discarded immediately.

I think I would agree with that. I'm, I still kind of don't know. What did you think of Civil War, friend? Let's start there. I like Civil War. I did, too. I like Civil War. It's like a, it's just a video game movie to me where, like, I don't overthink.

Right. I don't over think what anyone is doing or why they're doing it. To me, they're just moving between basically like the equivalent of dungeons and cutscenes. Yes. Where it's like, okay, we got to fight our way through this thing. Now we'll talk about it. And in the way that like I tap through cut scenes, I wish I could sort of tap through when they're just chatting in Civil War.

But like the overall effect of it is great to me. I think it's really pretty good. I'd have liked it a lot more, I think, if the dungeon. dominant early narrative about it hadn't been, it's a love letter to photojournalism and war correspondence and whatever. Because by the end of that movie, I'm like, what does it actually have to say about photojournalists and war correspondents at the end of the day, beyond just that they were that focal point of the movie? I think it's that they're psychos. I wish like Janet Malcolm was like alive to see what

this movie said about journalism because I think it's a very anti-journalist movie. In a way, that's, like, quite compelling to me. Meanwhile, the film we're talking about today has essentially war journalists who there's the scene in the movie, like, one of the more bonkers in this pretty sober movie scenes of the journalist being like, what are we going to call this? Peter Lou? Yes. Terrific. It's great. I do love that.

I mean, we're going to get in. into what I love about Peterloo. And on that list is not, you're not going to find the word subtlety. You know what I mean? Like I think there was, this was a sort of surprisingly moderately reviewed movie. This was not, not exactly, tepid exactly, but like, this was not the critics pick fave that I kind of thought I would find when I went and looked up the reviews. And part of the reason for that is I think people in getting a Mike Lee movie were expecting something sort of, if not modest, then, you know, respectable character piece.

And I think they sort of were a little bit annoyed by how brazenly pro, like, pro one side over the other. They're like, this is not a movie that cares to give you the other side looking anything like the sort of absolutely morally bankrupt, wealthy lord class that they are. There's a confluence of things happening around this movie, too, that kind of, like the tenor around this movie, you know, when it's releasing in that festival season in 2018 is people kind of not wanting to deal with it. I think it's a factor. I mean, we'll talk about it. But the, I think people have come around on Mr. Turner or a certain, like, critical subset has come around on Mr. Turner being incredible. Mr. Turner is, I love Mr. Turner. Demestating.

It's so great. But, you know, the basic complaint around that movie is it's so long, nothing really. really happens, it's this kind of book mold movie, and then when they see Peterloo coming, they're like, oh, great, here we go again, another two and a half slow hours of book mold and blah, blah, blah, blah. There's also, you know, there's festival rumors that happen for some movies, and you know, you take it with a grain of salt, and it never really matters. When the rumor was that Cannes turned this movie down, I feel like that spread.

around so quickly and everybody just kind of decided that it was because the movie was bad. And so when it finally arrives in Venice and Toronto, you know, people are positive, but they're generally indifferent to the movie. And, you know, there's also the Amazon thing of it. Amazon punts it to the spring for the U.S. release. It doesn't go to New York, which is kind of surprising, because, like, New York and film at Lincoln Center is very, very pro-Mike Lee. When they did the retrospective in 2022, I didn't get into any of the ones I had a Q&A with him, but I was told by a friend who saw the Q&A for Topsy-Turvy that Lee just kept hammering home, like, it's so crazy you guys are doing this retrospective when you didn't even want Peterloo.

I was so surprised to come back here Because you didn't go off Mike Dennis Lim didn't like Peterloo Like he really like hammered at home Like you guys didn't want this movie And now you're showing it three times In the retrospective or something like that Which

Having read Leon Lee is very his attitude When turned down from a festival I think this book Which maybe I'll reference a couple times Provide some really fascinating insight To his relationship and mentality around Cannes and Venice specifically. He's kind of like played them off each other

for the past 20 years. And when Can has said, no, he's like already laying the groundwork to go to Venice. He can always tell when it's coming and then he's like, that's fine, we'll go to Venice. He has a lot of, I remember from that book, he has a lot of grudges of the idea of, well, they always have to have a Mike Lee movie.

and how that was something that was held against, oh, God, why am I forgetting? It's all or nothing that's like... All or nothing, yeah. Like, people kind of dismissed it because it's like, oh, well, here's the Lee movie that it has to be here or whatever. It is a mentality, though, because you get that a lot with Cannes, actually. The filmmakers who are there sort of all the time, you get that with the Dardens. And the Dardons, I think, kind of earned this reputation a little bit, where it's just sort of like, well, another Dardens movie that they just sort of put in

the festival because they always do and... I personally tend to push back against this too in ways that, you know, don't always serve me because like something like this year, the Sorrentino Parthenope movie that everybody's just

like, well, here's another Sorrentino movie and it sounds awful, but I'm going to be on its side a little bit because everybody dismisses it for this very dumb mentality. Have you heard people pronounce it parthenope or are we just assuming it's italian it's got to be parthenopy i'm being the dumb american who's just calling it parthenope where it's just like parthenon plus nope yes i mean

it's in your headline why not i mean i oh that's so funny if i'm totally wrong um fantastic i love it um i guess well yeah he is someone that has that you know thrust against him and i do think that the kind of reductive group think that accompanied the reception to Mr. Turner put this movie at a disadvantage in a way. And it's like we, you know, different filmmaking styles and different, you know, filmmaking approaches and points of view do go out of fashion. And I think, you know, Mike Lee was probably at a moment where, you know, his style of filmmaking is going, was going out of fashion to the point that, you know, the reception for this movie made it so hard for him to make another movie. And that's why I'm so excited for

hard truths, you know, because he may not get to make another one. But yeah. The thing, though, about filmmakers who cultivate a sense of, you know, that the high watermark is the watermark for them, right? Like, Mike Lee just has a constancy to him, right? That there is just, he doesn't have these, like, peaks and valleys in his career. It's just like this, like, steady line of high quality. And that's great. But it also means that those filmmakers tend to have to do something quite extraordinary

and not even just, like, within, like, straight up, you know, is this, you know, good or bad, but something has to set a movie apart in order for it to be like, well, this is going to be the Mike Lee movie that will end up back in the best picture race. Do you know what I mean? And I think something like Peterloo is so frustrating for me, not the movie, but the reception for it, because you can see a world in which Peterloo could have been that movie and that it's it's him taking a wider, scope than anything he had done in very recent years, his runoff movies up to them. The only movie that anybody really ever compared it to in his filmography was Topsy Turvey, which was, I think if, you know, the Oscars had a top 10 that year, Topsy Turvey would make it onto that one. And so it was a very sort of well-received movie. But so Peterloo represents this kind of, if not a leveling up from Lee, certainly like a, a, a, increasing of the scope of his movie, but it also is a movie that was incredibly timely

in a way that a lot of people just sort of didn't want. Like, timely is usually good, and I think timely worked against Peterloo for whatever reason this year, and that they didn't want to see a movie about, you know, protest movements ending, not ending, because this didn't end the protest, but like a movie about a protest movement that ends in Bloody Massacre, right? And I think anybody who saw this movie walked out of it, if not galvanized, then, like, mad as hell, right? And if more people had seen it, I wonder, you know, the optimist in me is like, well, everybody would have been so fucking rar. You cannot walk out of this movie, I think, feeling not completely charged up for where this movie leaves you. And I think a lot of people just didn't want to sign up for, as you say, Chris, like two and a half hour movies of a subject of import.

Well, that's the thing is I feel like because of the mindset that so much of the critical community and the cinephile community had going into this movie. And like, I'll fully confess, I was one of them too. I didn't see it at that TIF because I, you know, bought into this idea of it's Mike Lee just spinning some tires. which is like embarrassing now because I love the movie but no I would say more so it's that because everybody has this mindset of what this thing is before they even see it they didn't view it in the way that this could possibly be a prescient movie this could be a movie not just about the time that it's set in but a movie about today and like is just as emblematic of you know you know, Mike Lee being a working-class filmmaker, making movies about working-class political, financial issues, you know.

Yeah. Fran, what was your entry point into Mike Lee and his movies? I, my entry point was Mr. Turner. I saw Mr. Turner at a festival in 2014. I was doing like a critics workshop in Belgium randomly. Oh, wonderful. And so I saw it out of competition in. this film festival in Ghent.

I knew of Mike Lee at the time, but I had not seen any of his. I had taken like a British realist film class in college. So his name was invoked, but we never watched any, which was very bizarre to me. We watched a lot of like Loach, who Ken Loach is sort of often compared to Mike Lee and they have their sort of like,

I mean, they're friends, but their films have a very interesting trajectory up against each other. Another filmmaker who ends up in film festivals as a just pencil them right in no matter what yeah truly um and i saw turner and i didn't really like or get turner um i think i found it very slow and i had a real like 22 year olds mentality around it where i was like he's mean to his housekeeper um and i didn't i didn't see turner again until like nine years later at the 2022 retrospective and suddenly i was like this actually might be like top top five leave ever um but like as as you said the

quality is so consistent it's very hard to like say which are better than the others but i saw Peterloo i think once amazon dumped it on crime when i was doing like a year-end catch-up in 2019 and i had similarly heard things about its quality based like from tiff in the year before But I felt like once it got dumped on Amazon, there started to be rumblings of like, oh, no, it's good. It's like actually totally good. And I was pet sitting for a friend and I threw it on as part of my like year-end catch up being like, okay, I wasn't sure about Turner, but this is very up my alley. And like within 15 minutes, I was like, this is great. Yeah.

This is really good. Yeah. And then it was in 2020 that I did like basically the sweep of them. and I'm still catching up on some of the, like, BBC ones, but I've seen just about everything. Yeah. Listeners, anybody with a Criterion channel subscription, go and watch the BBC movies. Like, they're so clearly made for TV, but there's so much greatness in them. I think it's so funny that he, like, the only thing that Mike Lee considers abject failure, basically, in his entire career is the film of Abigail's party.

And I, like, went into it with that mindset. And I think it's one of my favorite things he's ever made. It's amazing. It's maybe his funniest movie. The ability for Allison Stedman to make the word okay be the funniest word in the English language. But the BBC movies are fantastic. I would say like my least favorite thing Lee has ever made is among them. But, you know, they're all worth watching.

You can see him like starting to figure out bigger parts of, like, later films either in performances or in character things and I think what feels like especially relevant to like a film like Peterloo is like I think something he's sort of worked at his whole career and gone in and out of waves of is the extent to which he does or does not want to humanize like rich upper class people right um and I think there are these really really cartoonish representations and like the BBC films there's like this one who's who that's kind of his only film about like outside of Abigail's party which is like a straight satire who's who is like about the sort of middle aspiring upper class and it's

really quite hateful yeah that's my least favorite that one's sort of like just almost like sketches it's it's very much not a movie um but i think it's interesting that by the time we get to peterloo he's almost like completely gone around back and just being like no no characterization for these guys these guys are all varying degrees of monstrous every judge you see in this movie is horrible. Yeah. And, but in Peterloo, that feels like really crystallized and potent for what that movie is arguing versus this like big joke as it is in who's who.

The thing that he does in Peterloo that I find so effective that I can understand maybe why people didn't take it in a way that they liked very much is the way that he uses people raising their voices in these sort of like group settings and these, you know, in these meetings. He does it with the people sort of organizing the protest movement as well. I think in particular the movie of the women's group where the speakers are using this sort of very oratorical language, you know, that they mean to sort of like rouse the crowd. And ultimately, and there are people being like, we don't understand the words that you're using. Like, please, like, dumb it down for me, essentially.

And they sort of, like, yell back and forth at each other to sort of, like, sit down and let her finish and whatever. And then you see that, but all of that is, you know, intended towards the ends of having everybody get on board with, you know, this righteous movement. And then you see that sort of juxtaposed towards the end when, all of these, you know, the home office, you know, swells or whatever are all lording down over the square and are yelling at each other about when they should be, you know, when they should deploy the troops and, and it's all sort of like these, these great

sort of raised voices. And Lee plays that for as much comedy as he can ring out of it, where he will sort of like cut right at the end of like three or four people, And it's just like, boom, cut, and it's back to the square. And it's, you know, he, it's people called like the depiction of, you know, those characters like cartoonish or or, and I'm just like there's, there's a way that you can have a laugh at these characters without it being cartoonish, that you can find their attempts to, um, sort of press their thumb down on these lower classes to be so villainous as to be ludicrous, right? And I think that's what Lee's doing with this. And I mean, we live in a time of political cartoon villains. Like, you know, what's the fucking problem? Right. Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah, Mike Lee is somebody who I had been, you know, I kept tabs on.

his movies. I probably saw a bunch of his movies when I was too young to really appreciate him. I saw Secrets and Lines when I was like probably still a teenager. And I was like, yeah, cool. And but also like, of course it wouldn't, you know, have as much of an effect on me when I was that age. And I saw Vera Drake. I was whatever in my early, I saw Vera Drake and I remember being like, yes, yes, Imelda Staunton, so good. So whatever. And then... Vera Drake was the movie where Fran, you mentioned having a very 22-year-old response. I had a very like 16-year-old response to Vera Drake of like, it's evil that he puts them through this process that he pulled the rug out of Melda Staunton when I'm like, that's not really how his process

works. He's not like inflicting trauma upon his actors. Yeah. Something Patrick Sullivan and I talk about all the time is that we always have to remind ourselves that Vera Drake is not real. We're like, and she's real and it's like, no, no, no, she's not real. He made her up. It does feel like, It very much does feel like a biopic. You would absolutely want to, like, slot that in into your video store as a biopic. I also had a very 20-something Gen X Cusper reaction to Happy Go Lucky when I first saw it, where I was like, this lady's exhausting. This lady's just, if I knew this person in real life, I would not be able to, you know what I mean? And then going back later in my 30s, I can, you know, sort of.

appreciate that movie for the almost subversiveness of it, right, where this person is combating this awful world with defiant whimsy or whatever. But it really was another year that got me, right? And another year was one sort of similar to you, Fran. I saw that at a festival. I saw that at the New York Film Festival in 2010, right? That was, I don't think that was a year before. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And absolutely head over heels fell for it. It was like, I think that was the first thing. If it wasn't the first thing I'd ever seen Leslie Manvillan, it was the first thing I had realized I was watching Leslie Manvillan. And so that kind of characterized then all the other Mike Lee's that I had seen and sort of got me on the bandwagon and think. I should also say, like, as is relevant to this podcast, um, While there were all these Lees in the late 90s and early 2000s that I hadn't seen, I very distinctly remember the awards show presence of these films.

I mean, I was truly like a child, but I remember the Secrets and Lies, Billy Crystal, Brady Bunch. Sure, of course. Here's the story of a British lady with a most ungrateful daughter on this earth. Now this lady also had a brother whose wife could not give. birth it's the story of a secret daughter who she gave her for adoption through her cry sweet Lord yes this mother's never seen this daughter she's in for some surprise I very distinctly remember Sally Hawkins winning the globe for happy go lucky I remember the big push for like Leslie Manville I remember Vera Drake because I was like seeing all the Harry Potter movies at the time

Like, these movies always had this, like, awards omnipresence in my life, but I, like, had no idea sort of what the deal with them was. Leading up to Peterloo, he had been, his movies had been nominated for Oscars, like, five out of the previous six. Like, he was on a very, very strong streak. It's, like, not career girls and not All or Nothing, which you watch All or Nothing now. And, like, All or Nothing is, like, a tough movie, like, but the same. Yeah. All or Nothing was the one that my immediate reaction was like, that one was just okay. But it's maybe in doing my Lee watch this year, it's the one that's kind of, at least the one that I watched for the first time, the one that's stuck with me the most. Because it took. I think there's a reappraisal of that one kind of happening in real time. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like, you kind of have to sit with what he's ultimately doing. It's no surprise that it is his post-divorce movie. Yeah. But it's also just, it's, it's very heavy, but leading you out of that heaviness. There is like a really hard-earned optimism that that movie ultimately gets to.

But it's so surprising when you want, like, that's, it's weird the ones that we are indifferent to in, or at the time of their release, the Mike Lee's that we're indifferent to. Because you watch that movie now and it's like, how is this not the first Leslie Manville? Oscar nomination. I think at the time, though, that all or nothing comes out, I think people were somewhat confused as to why the O-Town song was used on the soundtrack to that movie, and people were, you know, puzzled. And I can understand that. I can, I get it.

I want to watch Mike Lee listen to an O-Town song. That particular one. A bit that we do around here is sort of imagining what he has to say about some modern buzzy releases and something we talked about a lot was like, what does Mike Lee think of challengers? Has Mike Lee seen challengers? And it always comes down to too loud. What do we think Mike Lee thinks of this? It's always too loud.

Too loud. Do you like Civil War? No, it's too loud. That makes a lot of sense. It's his It's his director's roundtable look where he's got his hands and his face in his hands and he's just like. God, that image. It's perfect. What a legacy. Yeah. It's perfect. I hope we get more of it this season.

Yeah, who is talking? Who is talking when he's making that face, Chris? You would know. It's like the stupidest person on that director panel, but not John Krasinski. Well, I was going to say, I always think it's John Krasinski, but it's not. It's never like the exact perfect, like, narrative you want for something like that. It's someone that's even more surprising to be on that director lineup than Krasinski. I have to look this up because that will drive me crazy.

What year was it for? Was it for Mr. Turner a year? I think so. It would have had to have been. I feel like time erased Peterloo. Yes. Christopher Nolan's there because Christopher Nolan is next to Mike Lee. So that would track because Interstellar was that year.

It's the Interstellar, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is it Inoratu? That'd be funny. That'd be real funny. 2014. Who would the directors have been Link Letter, probably? Probably not like Morton Tildom, although that'd be true.

It is, damn it, this doesn't have the whole list. Sorry, Joe, you're kind of have to trim. No, that's fine. That's fine. It's more important that we find out the answer to this. Oh, no, here is the lineup. Here's the lineup. It is Mike Lee, Richard Linklitter,

Angelina Joe Lee, Bennett Miller, and I, my guess is that it's Morton Tildom. Oh, it is Morton Tildom? Okay. that's funny. Oh, well, yeah. There we go. Um, the imitation game. Remember a movie that happened? Um, so, okay, so we're obviously going to get into the, uh, two hour and 34 minute plot of Peterloo. We have a lot to talk about. Um, not in very many precursor awards for this, but there's the Venice Film Festival to talk about. much, much more about Mike Lee. But before we get into a plot, Chris, would you like to inform our listeners who are perhaps not part of our Patreon

why they should be? Listener, did you know we have a Patreon? We sure do. We call it This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. For $5 a month, you're going to get at least two bonus episodes. What are those episodes? The first of which that drops

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We've done other listeners' choice that resulted in movies like The Lovely Bones and Molly's game. For the second episode of the month, that's going to drop on the third Friday of every month, That is an excursion. It's a deep dive into different Oscar ephemera. We love to obsess about on this show. We'll be talking about things like Hollywood Reporter roundtables, EW fall movie previews. We just did a massive three-hour awards race check-in on the year looking towards what we have to come and what has already come in the year 2024. So come on over to the patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz and join us, won't you? for $5 a month. Like I said, we can no longer reference the Baja Blast. So it is for... That's our protest. That's our J.D. Vance protest.

We are not mentioning anything. Yeah, that's our J.D. Vance protests. We no longer drink Mountain Dew of any kind, even the delicious Baja blast. So, yeah, for the cost of... A big gulp of some sort. A big gulp of mug root beer or something like that. All right. Fran, I'm going to ask you to...

to limber up and get ready to deliver a 60-second plot description while I run down the particulars, trying to talk about what cast members to shout out for this movie, by the way, gave me no end of anxiety because it is so many people. And besides Rory Keneer, I don't know any of the, none of them are named people. Maybe Marian Bailey. Once I saw her name in the credits, I was like, oh, right, Marian Bailey. There are some people to talk about. There are definitely some people to talk about.

But it's definitely like, I see a list, I see that list of names and like, I, faces don't come to me. So it's, whatever, we'll get into it. We're talking about Peterloo, the 2019 with an asterisk movie that premiered at every festival in 2018, directed and written by Mike Lee, starring Rory Kineer, Rory Kineer, Maxine Peek, Pierce Quigley, David Morst, Neil Bell, Rachel Finnegan, Tom Meredith, Simone, Bitmate, Philip Jackson, Robert Wilford, Carl Johnson, Nicomela Miralegrow, Danny Carine, Johnny Byram, Victoria Mosley, Alistair McKinsey, Tim McIntyny, Marion Bailey, that's literally like a quarter of the main cast members in this movie. There are so, so many people. Apologies. If you are a listener to this podcast and you were in Peterloo, first of all, get at us. Second of all, sorry that I didn't mention your name if I didn't mention your name. It premiered. at the Venice International Film Festival on September 1st, 2018,

before also playing the festivals in Telluride and Toronto and London and Chicago and Austin and then settling in for a long winter's nap before emerging in the United States on April 5th, 2019. Fran Hoffner, I am going to pull out my little stopwatch

and ask you if you are ready to deliver a plot description for Peterloo. On my mark, get set, go. Peter Lou is a historical drama set between the years of 1815 and 1819 in England, and it tells the story of the slow and steady radicalization of the people of Manchester following England's war with Napoleon, where after everyone was very poor and very miserable and a social movement grew in Manchester where they were like, wait, we should have representation in Parliament so that we don't have to pay high taxes.

30 seconds. Sort of a classic thing to want. And they radicalize and they bring in a speaker, played by Rory Keneer, and they get all fired up. And they go to St. Peter's Field to have a big rally, peaceful protest. And the local lords come and basically beat and stab and shoot the shit out of them in what was an extremely violent massacre. Boom. With six seconds to spare, Fran, quite economical with the plot of me. Appropriately, maybe the only plot description that doesn't really mention characters that we've ever had.

It's hard. And this was a big thing. It's hard, yeah. As I mentioned earlier, this was a thing that a lot of critics got hung up on in that, like, a lot of the very specific criticisms from very intelligent critics was that there are no characters in this movie. There are caricatures. And not to be like you watched the movie wrong, because I do try and not do that. But, like, I do feel like you're kind of missing the point if your criticism of this movie is that it wasn't. And I understand why, because Mike Lee gives you the expectation of these, like, deep lived in character studies.

And I would argue that the movie does give you character. It just gives it to you on such a wide canvas that it's like, it's, you know, I guess the phrase a mile wide and an inch deep is meant to be a pejorative. But I think in this case, it's just that he gives. you enough of all of these characters to sort of weave together this big tapestry. I thought the one critic who best reflected what I thought, and so I wrote it down, but A.O. Scott's review for The Times, he says, Lee's narrative is touched by the literary spirit of the later 19th century. Peterloo has the sweep of Tolstoy and the bustle of Dickens. It's crowded with noble, villainous, and comical characters.

spies and magistrates, radical firebrands and anxious liberals, pompous officials and plain-spoken workers, servants, tradesmen, gossips, thugs, and children, the Prince regent himself. Everyone carries a spark of individuality. Every voice and face is something to remember. And that's basically where I come down on the idea of how characterization works in this movie. That it is not these deep character studies. If you, if you tried to do a deep character study of a movie with all of these characters, it would be 20 hours long, right? But I think he shows, Lee shows a lot of great skill in being able to cast this wide of a net. And yet you feel, I mean, that's why part of the reason why that

massacre is so impactful is that you know who these people are, even if you can't, like, remember, like, oh, that person's name. You know what I mean? But it's like, oh, Oh, that was a woman who was in the meeting of the, you know, of the women's group. This, you know, this guy was in, you know, this person's house. This is obviously, I mean, obviously the soldier from the very beginning getting killed is. Joseph. Yes. Oh, my God, that moment.

Yeah. But I don't know. The whole opening shot of this movie. It's like Mike Lee has no shot in any other of his movies that is like that. And it's so incredible. Yeah. Yeah, he talks a lot in the book about, like, having to work with, like, stunt coordinators and, like, action choreographers and, like, you know, horse people for the first time and how that is, like, everything in his career that he's tried to avoid in movies just because it's, like, too much work. He's like, I don't want to have to do that.

But he, like, he also seems to clearly love having done it. It's interesting that he says, like, in an early edition of Leon Lee, like, when he's talking, I think about sort of the movies of the early, late 80s, early 90s. like what I wouldn't do to have had like 12 million to make a movie. And this is 15. So this is also looking like if he got the dream budget that he wanted to have, what is he spending his blank check on? And he's doing, yeah, horses and action sequences and all this stuff. Yeah, because it is worth noting this is his Amazon movie. You know, this is the movie where, you know, a corporation is giving him just a giant chunk of money that they don't care if they don't do anything with, you know.

For it being so outside of his normal wheelhouse, too, that that final scene of the massacre is filmed so well in that it is both incredibly immediate and incredibly, you know, immersive, while also being very clear as to what is happening, what direction the action is moving, where, you know, where the army is coming in, the red, redcoats as opposed to, you know, the yeomanry or whatever. And I think it all, there is an appropriate amount of chaos, intentional chaos in those scenes, while also being very, very clear as to what is happening. And I think for a filmmaker, who's never, to my knowledge, really done, certainly action. Do you know what I mean? That it,

that it comes across that well. And again, drives me a little bit crazy that more people weren't singing the praises of this movie because, and again, I'm part of the problem

because like you know, like you, Fran, I didn't see it until I was doing catch up at the end of 2019, too, you know what I mean?

So, um, there's always one movie every year that I write off for one reason or another that I watch in the waning days of the calendar year, just on my TV or even worse

on my laptop. And I'm like, This thing's amazing. Every year it happens, like, no matter how diligent I think I've been. And part of it is like, part of it feels like a gift where it's like, oh, thank God, I watched this before the end of the year. When you're watching a bunch of things that feel like vegetables, your ketchup movies, and then you have the one that's really special. And then part of you was like, oh, I could have been talking about this one since March. You know what I mean?

And I could have seen it in a theater. I could have seen it in a theater. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Now I got to wait for, you know, retrospective or something. Yeah. I think this thing you're talking about of just the, like, formal rigor that goes into this movie, you know, it shouldn't be surprising for someone like Lee, who has made so many movies and has had a decade-spaning career that he could pull this off.

But it is so very different from what he's done in a way that makes it really frustrating to watch now that, like, people weren't willing to, you know, this very heralded filmmaker who we love, flexing different muscles than they've ever flexed before and making a good movie. And it's one of the more frustrating things of celebrating the movie now that it's just like, it was right there. But I mean, I would also say it's not just, you know, he's filming this battle scene, which we should also say, it's the first time he's really dealt with major CGI because those crowd scenes are aided by CGI and you would never know it. You know, I think the influence of Lord of the Rings to make masses of buzz. has gotten so pervasive that it's like, well, now you can just tell that it all looks fake

and it doesn't look fake in this movie. But I think the way that he is also telling the story of this movie is him working in a different mode than he's ever worked before. That whole idea, Joe, that you were saying, of a mile wide, if an inch deep. But, like, the movie is about the mile, not that inch. Right, right. but I still think you do get the signature, like, depth of character that you get in a Lee movie. It's just you might be watching a character over the course of a scene rather than the course of a narrative.

Well, and when you're trying to tell the story of a social movement, a labor movement, a workers movement, a progressive political moment, I don't think it is a, it's a vice to... imbue these characters with these kind of archetypal qualities, you know what I mean, the mother who's concerned, the son who's come back from war, the, you know, the guy at the pub in the, you know, upstairs room at the pub, you know, doing the, you know, Le Miz, whatever, I can never remember how to pronounce Aaron Tivate's character from Lema. This is kind of like if Le Mise was an encyclopedia. Well, having just watched the Paris Olympic opening ceremonies, I was definitely very much like, oh, like, right, like, you know, the French, and obviously the French influence on this story in Peterloo is intentional and that, like, they mentioned several times the French Revolution. Obviously, it begins with defeating, you know, Napoleon at Waterloo. I kept singing Peterloo to the tune of Waterloo and then kept chastasing myself and it's like you're not clever

the whole point is that it's supposed to sound like Waterloo like you're not being clever Joe stop this right now so I was beating up on my brain earlier today but like that thing of you know Lee's process and Lee's depth of character I think in this movie like I think about especially the scene of the like women's

there's this one woman who is kind of foregrounded but not like shot in close up of the arc of her scene is so developed and she maybe doesn't have a name in that and she's just like the woman who's sitting in the front bench of not understanding what's happening and you know trying to listen trying to become involved and over the course of the scene that woman gets activated but she's like not an active participant in what's going on, but that woman is the point of that thing. It doesn't matter if you don't, it almost doesn't matter if you don't know her name because you know who she is in this movement. You know who, you know, you know, you know the hundreds of hers that exist in this movement. You know, the hundreds of people who each of these characters represent in this, you know, sort of much wider movement that, that Lee is talking about. Yeah, and I think he's also, you know, people will do a sort of tongue-in-cheek thing of like, well, the place is kind of a

fourth character. Right. The fifth character is the city of New York or whatever. Manchester is the fifth bitch at this table. Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but he's sort of foregrounding. Like, can you make a movie where a city is a main character and like what would that look like as well as

doing the, like, maybe the most galaxy-brained version of, like, humanist filmmaking of like, do you, how much do you need to know about these characters for you to care that this happened to them. Like, to what extent, like, it sort of undoes everything we know. Right.

About a lot of just, like, cinematic storytelling. It feels like Tolstoy is like, if this guy's only here for half a page, do you care about the injustice that was done? Right. And on the flip side. As evident from that fall, no. Right. Well, on the flip side, do you need to have,

do you need to sort of burrow into the lives of these lords to know, to understand the villainy there. Do you know what I mean? Do you have to, you know, it's not even about humanizing. It's about you have to like, you know, spend all of this time to understand why. Because ultimately, the motivation for these, you know, for the Lord class in this movie is not exactly complicated. They find different ways to mention, you know, to talk about, you know, why we have to, for the tranquility of the, of the nation and for we know what's good for these people better than they know, themselves and ultimately all it comes across as is flimsy excuses for we got it they want it we don't want them to have it and that's sort of what all this boils down to what all of these movements boil down to so power to the people is what I say I think something interesting that pops up in the Leon Lee book is that every time you say that by the way I hear Leon Lee as like a person's name like Leon wrote this great book about whatever and I'm fascinated by the personage of this anyway sorry I think of all film books that I have though like Leon Lee is maybe the most essential purchase listener if you go out and get this book it is a brick it is fascinating and it's amazing and it's like and for like Mike Lee someone who even the you know interviewer for these interviews in the book admits at the top like very prickly person to interview sure um you know

know, it's kind of really, not just inspiring, but, you know, you're taken aback a little bit by just fully how candid and, like, end to end he is on his entire career. It's an incredible. I rudely interrupted Fran, though. Fran continue, please. Oh, that's okay. He's very funny, too. It's a very funny book, a lot of the time. Something that Lee and Amy Raphael, who did these interviews, talk about is that like. I mean this is not a frequently discussed event in English history that she was like do you remember learning about this and he was like maybe for a second like this doesn't get talked about I was raised in the north he was like my parents were like overlapped with people who lived through this and like no one spoke about this event this is also like a political thing that happened that sort of changed the course of English politics that also like the English public school process doesn't want people talking about and going about or getting further radicalized that even in that this is this like lost social movement in a lot of ways

even though it was so monumental. That's why the American schools don't teach about the Black Panthers. If you've watched the most recent season of Rupel's Drag Race UK, you will be all the more galvanized for the queens from the north in that season.

After watching Peterloo, I guarantee you. So there's also that. The only thing, like, Mike Lee coming to drag race was, like, Natasha Leone, being on the judge's panel and saying that a curiosity Davenport was, like, giving Mike Lee level of character depth and commitment or something like that. And it's like, a curiousy Davenport, bless her, love her, has not seen a Mike Lee movie and does not know what you're talking about Natasha Leone. No, the top three were all from the north. It was Ginger Johnson, Tamara Thomas, and Michael Marooley were all the top three from... that season. Yes, I definitely started this because I know Michael Marooley.

And Kate Butch, you loved Kate Butch, as did I. Kate Butch was tremendous. It's a really good season. Brought me back. Brought me back to Drag Race UK. So there we go. What does Mike Lee think about RuPaul's? Too loud.

Too loud. He'd be such a good guest judge, though. He would be a really, really good guest. Because he'd be looking for that realism. Absolutely. Um, wait, there was something else I was going to say about, um, I don't watch drag race, but they like, they're like following challenges and assignments, right? Oh, yeah, like every, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he talks about the short film that he made for the 2012 Olympics, along with like three other filmmakers in the Lee on. Sorry, I know I've made you self-conscious. No, no, no, I, I slur also. Um, he says something at the end where he's like, I'm the only one who followed the assignment. It was supposed to, it was supposed to be about athleticism and actually no one else made their film about that, but I did do that. Tremend it truly is about like working class people working out. First of all, the 2012, again, talking about the Olympic opening ceremony that I watched last night, the 2012 opening ceremony directed by Danny Boyle, starring among others, Kenneth Branagh and a stove by Pat.

introducing the march of industrialization across the pastoral England is essential viewing for anybody. It's the best thing maybe I've ever seen on network television. It's so good. And Mike Lee is right to brag about being the only person to follow the assignment because, you know, it's important. I love when these countries like for these occasions are like, okay, well, the next two weeks are going to be about athletes, and that's good. But right now, we're going to gather, as Paris did last night, like, all of our, like, weirdest artists to come together and present Marie Antoinette's in the windows, all beheaded, and a runway show and, you know, drag queens and whatnot. It was just like, yes, good. The Los Angeles Olympics opening ceremony is going to be wall-to-wall drag queens, and I cannot wait. Anyway, you know what I have to see that I've never seen? You're going to both yell at me, is they've never seen naked before.

I mean, of, I would say, you know, the Mike Lee movies that it's like, it's a commitment. You have to, like, commit to I am watching this thing and I am going to get on its wavelength. It's Peterloo and naked. Interesting. Peterloo is just so, like, if you can make it through the first half hour of Peterloo, I think. you're golden but like it's so many people it's so it moves very quickly for a thing that is as long as peterloo is you know you you know i understand people that it's like this is like uh it's like putting uh an encyclopedia on your lap and saying read it but like yeah rewards you

the thing about naked is that naked is so unpleasant you know just the clips that i've seen from it i I believe you. Yeah. Mike Lee either vacillates between the funniest thing you've ever seen and the bleakest thing you've ever seen. And naked is one of the bleakest things he's ever made aside from maybe hard labor. It's rough. So you two are the people I most trust in this world to give recommendations on Mike Lee. If our listener, if we've got a listener out there who has never seen any of his movies, how would you recommend?

if you were recommending, like, a starter pack, like a Mike Lee starter pack, the way that I will recommend Survivor seasons to people to help them get into Survivor, and I have a very specific order of seasons that I tell them to watch him in. What would you recommend for the Mike Lee novice in preparation for hard truths, which is coming out at the end of this year? I mean, Secrets and Lies is just kind of like quintessential. what this guy is all about. And like you could go lucky also.

Yeah. I honestly might be inclined to say something like all or nothing just because what I think all or nothing is emblematic of him as a filmmaker is like, yes, these are the type of stories he's doing. But this is, this is an example of how he'll surprise you. He might turn the story on its head. Or, you know, the thing about all or nothing is you think it's a story about three families and it ultimately becomes a story about one family and very like crucially for a good reason zeroes in on that one family. And that's kind of the surprise of the structure of that story.

And Mike Lee does things like that. I think with intention that might not be the way anybody else would tell a certain story. I think the one thing that maybe people know about Mike Lee, even if they haven't seen the movies, but sort of follow film discussion, is that he's sort of famously, he's the director who rehearses for weeks, weeks and weeks, right? That sort of creates this built on improvisation. Built on improvisation, but also the sort of like very kind of lived in relationships that you end up with these movies that feel very authentic to. you know, characters who oftentimes, like, know each other very well. I think of, you know, another year in that way where you really feel the, the years between this, these friends, right? The married couple and, and Leslie Manville's character. And, I don't know, it's one of those

things where I think a director's calling card can very much be, you know, be accessed by newbies like newcomers to that filmmaker. And I always like that. I always think like people need hooks into the directors, especially ones that are sort of outside of

the, you know, for as much as, you know, a lot of people know Mike Lee, he's still outside of the mainstream of American film. So that's cool. I brought a friend who had never seen a Lee film to see Happy Go Lucky

when they showed it at MoMea a couple months ago. And that felt like a really strong entry point. Because it's not too big a downer, but it's got this really sort of interesting point of view. Big strong central performance, not a lot of, it's not a big barrier to entry. It's, you know, it's sort of a zippy story. It's like character behavior that ultimately can lead to a bigger conversation.

Like happy go lucky. you're dealing with this character who is too many. And I would even argue, like, Lee is aware of this. Lee is intentional in, like, the cloying optimism of this woman. Yes. Oh, yeah. And her major foil is her driving instructor, played by Eddie Marzan, who is just like the gloom and dune. He is the message board of, you know, anger and pessimism.

and ultimately, like, that movie asks you what it takes to be optimistic in a modern society, you know, in a way that, like, me saying it now makes it far more trite than the movie ultimately does. In terms of awards narrative with Mike Lee, we talked about how, like, his movies have often found themselves in, you know, in the realm of. Oscar nominations, whether it's, you know, Secrets and Lies getting a bunch or, you know, he's getting the lone director nomination for Vera Drake, but also Topsy Turvey gets nominations and Happy Go Lucky gets a screenplay nomination, as does another year. Mr. Turner gets four nominations in the crafts categories. And yet only three times, to my quick observation, have actors been nominated. There was Brenda Bleffin. and Marianne Jean-Baptiste for Secrets and Lies and then Amel de Staunton for Vera Drake. And yet, there's a lot of performances that could have, right? You could have seen a world in which David Thulis is a nominee for Naked or Jim Broadbent is a nominee for Topsy-Turvy, or Timothy Spall for Mr. Turner, or especially Sally Hawkins, who comes very close, Leslie Manville for another year, of course.

And I wonder how that pertains then to maybe our hopes for hard truths this year, where I think a lot of people, me included, are like, ah, Marianne John Baptiste, back together with the filmmaker who directed her to her Oscar nomination nearly 30 years ago. Jesus Christ, I don't like to think about that. But I don't know. I think about hard truths is we know absolutely nothing about it. Classic Mike Lee wants his movies to be, you know, he wants us to essentially receive them on their face by not having much information out there about the films before they premiere.

And like the rumors with hard truths is that both Cannes and Venice turned it down. We will see it in its world premiere at Toronto. I mean, I'm less inclined to believe given that its reported runtime is in the 90-minute range. that the movie is bad and that Mike Lee might be giving us another comedy and if that turns out to be true I might be even more excited because he does kind of pivot

from movie to movie and his past two movies have been period pieces it would be interesting to see him back in that mode again and also just like especially catching up with some of the BBC movies and my favorites have been the ones that are the overt comedies, that's just kind of how I'm keeping

my fingers crossed for hard truths. Yeah. Yeah, I also wonder if, like, at that time it felt like Marianne Jean-Baptiste was kind of a newcomer, and at this point, like, I would not call her sort of, like, A-List name recognizable,

but she's worked with a lot of people. Yep. I feel like she's, like, incurred a lot of goodwill since then. It's possible that also, like, her peers in the industry are excited to see her with Mike Lee again also that now that people sort of know who she is the weight of like this kind of comeback is exciting and I think also her performance in Secrets and Lies too even though I mean she

got the Oscar nomination still feels very overshadowed by the bigness of Brenda Blethen's performance in that movie but you know I talk a lot about I mean the the big showcase scene is the diner scene in that movie where they're both sitting in the booth next to each other. And Brenda Blethen realizes that she is indeed her mother and has this giant emotional outpouring. And I forget if we talked about this on Mike or not, Joe, but I think, you know, everybody talks about Brenda Blethen because of where she has to go in that scene. But I am, whenever I watch that movie, I am equally moved and equally kind of bold over by the quiet acting choices of Marianne Jean-Baptiste because

Brenda Blethen has to go to these huge emotional places to the point where you in the audience are asking, well, why is Marianne Jean-Baptiste staying? Why would you stay in this situation? Or how could you, you know, sit and like, basically bear witness to this emotional moment? And her performance is able to make you believe that she would stay.

And I feel like that is as impossible an acting task as what Brenda Blethyn is asked to do. Yeah. Yeah. Just an incredible performance, but not in the ways that people ever talk about. Yeah, I totally agree. Very, very fascinated to see where this goes. I wanted to sort of present you both with the question, because this is another one where I mentioned this earlier and then probably kept talking, as I often do. The idea of Peterloo coming out in this sort of post-2016 America as a movie that speaks so loudly towards protest movements and social change movements.

And obviously we were sort of amid the ongoing and wide-ranging and sort of myriad protest movements. against Trump, against police, against, you know, any number of things. And I'm, and then, of course, in, in Britain, there, they had come through, you know, Brexit as well. So I wonder, like, again, it was watching the movie at the time in 2019. I was like, weird that this movie didn't resonate stronger with audiences. And I wonder what you guys make of that. I mean, I kind of feel like it's what I said earlier that it's like people weren't even willing to meet this movie on the level that it's playing at, which is what you're describing. I don't know.

What would you say, Fran? I mean, I wonder how this movie would have played if it came out in 2021. I wonder if, like, post-2020, this hits you. even harder than in like the immediate aftermath of Brexit and the Trump election. But I also just think like very pessimistically about living and sort of the glory days of the Instagram infographic. Like people don't want to feel like they're being lectured to. And this does not sort of operate at the tempo with which people like to think about these things, even though it is far more realistically about the tempo at which social movements grow.

I think even now that these things take years to happen even when everyone in a town is literate or able to connect with one another but yeah I mean even as someone who loves his films I do feel like there's something here that just never totally hits its stride

I'm like why am I not like this one's a masterpiece I'm like this one's really good and and I've thought a lot about why that is, and I wonder if it is just the, yeah, the scope and the, and the pace of it feel too wide. I don't know. Well, I think it's very, it's, you walk out of a movie like another year, at least I do. And I'm just like, I feel like I've been sort of like hit with a chair, right? Where I'm sort of like the emotion, like the, the, the degree to which I connect to Leslie Manville's character in another year, I see. especially remember the first time I saw it. I was like, oh, oh, oh, no. You know what I mean? Like, oh, oh, dear God. Like, to see, and whatever, like, there's, there's the, there's the addiction that I think we sometimes have to being like, oh, that's so me. You know what I mean? And, like, needing to see

ourselves in movies. And yet, when a movie that is very much not about your experience finds a hook into you, in a way that a lot of Mike Lee's movies, I would say, do. Recognizable human behavior. often that we do not want to see in ourselves. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I feel like Peter Luce just not built that way. And I think isn't meant to be built that way. It's just sort of it's doing something else. And so that reaction to it, Fran, I feel like it feels very understandable.

And, you know, not every, not every movie is meant to sort of hook into you the same way. We're not always great at catching and recognizing in the moment or in the first response a filmmaker working in a different mode successfully or not. We're not always good at catching that. I would also maybe add that there's not, like you watch something like another year and you think, I don't, I can't think of another movie like that. And you could probably watch Peterloo and think of a few movies like it. even if they're not as good or...

Mike Lee should have made the Les Mis movie. I'm just going to say it. I'm just going to say it right now. I was thinking a lot about the Costa Gavros movies I've seen... Oh, that's a good comparison, honestly. I was revisiting this one. Because, like, I very recently watched Missing, which is a little bit more, like, character anchored.

But stuff like Z feels a little bit, like, all over the place. And you're sort of tracking all these different people in these social movements and stuff like that. Something I wonder, I mean, I don't think this is a particular hurdle for me personally with that movie,

but I wonder if the critical response would have been different to it with more name recognizable actors if some of that budget got redistributed to having a Jim Broadbent or someone in there if, like, there was some anchor besides,

I mean, having this sort of Ritchin isn't even in this movie. Yeah, where is, where is, where, what the hell is she doing? Like, there are a, There are other Lee players in this movie. It's just it's not of any of the Lee headline.

Wait, I want to talk about Rory Kinnear, though. Wait, who's your favorite Lee couple? Dorothy Atkinson and Martin Savage, who met while making Topsy Turvey. Oh, fantastic. Are both in this one. And they're both in Turner, too. They're both amazing in Turner. Dorothy Atkinson is like the woman on the street who's, you know, tragically singing to herself,

basically conceivably being the same as her. Mr. Turner character just like has not gone Yeah, right. And Martin Martin Savage is just one of the Snide Lords. He's always playing like a high status idiot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's so good at it. Marion Bailey is also in other Lee movies.

Yeah, totally. And she's the closing you know, Lord and Lady who cannot stop telling people how much they're fucking. Wait, what do we think of Rory Kinier, though? He gets the most sort of, he gets the hookiest character on the, on the protester side, right? Henry Hunt. Henry Hunt, who is this, you know, sort of vainglorious orator, who goes, is known as orator, which feels very, what did the, what did the nexium guy make them call him? You know what I mean?

It's just like, not to draw the exact comparison, obviously, but like that sort of, what? wouldn't make me think of it. They made him call him, you know, uh, vanguard, right? Vanguard. Um, God. Every once in a while, I'll think about the nexium documentary. I just be like, oh, boy. I think this is such a great. Rory Keneer is a guy sort of go back and forth on in general, but I think this is an amazing performance. And I think it's such a good character because amidst this movie's politics that Lee is able to sort of slide in that a lot of these big faces of these movements are like sort of self-serving celebrity type figures, both then,

and I would say now, feels quite prescient. This is a guy that sort of have to ploy into helping a very reasonable cause. Well, and this is a movie that is very, I think, intelligent about the way that for as as much as the aristocracy, the lords, I just call them the lords, and I feel like I'm shortchanging them, but whatever, all tend to squabble, but they sort of, they move with one resolute motion, which is easy for them to do because all they are, all they need to do is just sort of like hold a handout and say, stop this, you know what I mean? Whereas the protest movement, the progressive movement, has 20 different, you know, concerns and, and, and 20 different. methods by which to go about it. Some people, you know, say they should be armed. And some people they say that they should be calling for overt revolution and, you know, beheading the monarch. And some people are saying, you know, who will start small. You can't, you know, start so, so big. And you have to focus on the, you know, parliamentary representation or you have to focus on the corn tax or you

have to focus, whatever. And I think one of the things that Rory Kinnear's character helps galvanize is the idea that, like, there are people who are like, yap, yap, yap, yap. And there are people who are like, shut the fuck up with your yapping. You know what I mean? And it's all part of the same, you know, movement that is ultimately trying for something good. But it's so hard to, that's always the challenge of these, you know, progressive movements. is that upon you is the challenge of coming up with some sort of coalition, some sort of cohesive movement, cohesive statement. And he ultimately is somebody who feels like the movement is best served by his presence,

that his presence alone will instill order and will instill legitimacy. And that's why there cannot be a weapon in sight, you know, and all this sort of stuff. And I think it's interesting. I was also deeply, deeply into, in a Rory Kinear space because I think what's it called? Oh, fuck. What was the Showtime show that I was obsessed with?

Penny Dreadful was airing as this movie was new. And anybody... Is he in Penny Dreadful? He's in Penny Dreadful. He is Frankenstein's monster. Another reason for me to catch up to that. that show. It's so good. People did not talk about that show. With Josh Hartnett coming back into our lives with Oppenheimer and now Trap, people go back and watch Josh Hartnett. End quotes about how

Matt Damon told him not to gain weight. Wait, is that true? Matt Damon. There's a thing going around of how Matt Damon on the set of Oppenheimer would not stop telling Josh Hartnett that he shouldn't gain weight for his role in Oppenheimer and that he'll like never lose the weight because of it now. Matt Damon can, Matt Damon talks too much. Matt Damon just keeps on saying. Just yap, yep, yep, yep in a way. Yeah.

He's a yapper. Wait, back to Penny Dreadful. Yes. When I was blogging about the Simon Russell Beal memes that are coming out of House of the Dragon, yes. So many comments under all of those were like he ate in Penny Dreadful, love him from Penny Dreadful. He did. They're right.

King of Penny Dreadful. And I'd be like, what the fuck is going? They're totally right. There should be fan cams of him on Penny Dreadful. There should be fan cams. There should be Simon Russell Beal fan cams, period. Have you seen Deeply C, Fran? Maybe you're going to mention Deeply C.

Yes, but when it came out and not since. So it's been some time. I need to revisit. Revisit? I mean, like, flay yourself by revisiting, but like his performance especially pay attention to when you check back into that movie. Yeah, definitely someone where I didn't know who that was when I saw it. 100%.

Yeah, he's so good. Fran, have you seen the movie where Mark Rylance plays a tailor for the Chicago Mafia? Of course. The outfit? Yeah, I was like one of the OG outfit heads. Where Simon Russell Beale emerges and I literally clapped as the mob boss. As I clapped out loud in theater because I was so happy to see him as the Chicago mob boss. It was, I love that movie. Me too. I think the movie is such a great use of not.

many millions of dollars. Yes. Yeah, that movie is amazing. Seeing that, like, on a whim with my regal crown club is like what that perk is made for. 100%. 100%. It was, oh, I was very, very glad that I saw that. I was glad I'm glad to have backup on there because I saw it with my dear friend Joey

Sims who, like, had a good time with it and was like, but it's bad. And I'm like, no, it's good. No, it's good. Thank you. Where's Graham Moore? What is Graham Moore doing? We're in the imitation game. Well, he should make another movie.

Yes, agreed. That's not that. Right, exactly. You should make one about the mob again. Yes, cast with exclusively British. The mob in a haberdasher. Wait, who's the movie about a glove store? Who's the one American woman?

Is it Zoe Deutsch? Chris, you like Zoe Deutsch. You've come out as in Zoe Deutsch. I kind of like Zoe Deutsch. I've never seen a bad Zoe Deutsch performance. See the outfit. You'll... I've seen the outfit.

Oh, you have. Okay. I'm with Joey Sins. It's a good time. But I do not begrudge any outfit heads whatsoever. We are so happy that everybody loves it as that movie. We are the moment. All right.

I would float an idea that another quasi-protagonist in this movie, if there is one, is the character of Joseph, played by David Morst, who we open the movie with at Waterloo. And, like, this just very immediately tragic performance of this, you know, soldier at Waterloo having a very dissolutioned moment of how am I in war and then we follow Joseph throughout you know returning home

with like his family essentially serves as you know an entry point into the town and then of course tragically we see Joseph being you know murdered by the force it

The Bay and that, centrally military. Yeah. Yeah. To reference my big book again, the reason they pick that character is because so that guy in real life was just like a guy who had fought at Waterloo and then got severely injured at Peterloo but then died of those injuries weeks later. And the family like opened up an inquest to be like against the government and the government like fudged it and was like it wasn't on us. And then there was this big, apparently Channel 4 documentary where they like dug it up and were sort of like, no, this was completely on the government. And this is more well known. And so that's like why that became the anchor.

And obviously it's like this movie's already too long. But I wonder if even sort of like having it extend beyond and go into like, and they're going to fuss up the death of this. Like they're going to claim that they had nothing to do with this might even hit the hammer a little harder than the Marion Bailey stuff, which is amazing. but sort of like a very different note to bring it back to. I think it's so notable that this movie ends without a single post script. Like there is, it just goes right to directed by Mike Lee. And part of me, and I don't even know if Mike Lee's intention was this, but part of me is like, yeah, that's right.

Make people go find it out themselves. Like make people go and like look this shit up rather than just sort of feel like they've gotten the whole story from a postscript. Because it does make you want to be like. But this like very disquieting, upsetting. anti-climax. Under-discussed moment in history, you know, go look shit up. Yeah. But I think also the thing of like no one makes movies the way Mike Lee makes movies, you know, Joseph and Henry Hunt are these two characters that you can absolutely see

the significantly lesser movie that is just about them how not good those movies could be in sure that like that gives that goes sort of deeper with those characters and yeah yeah I think that's right or just takes a different lens on both of those characters and it's not like you're any less devastated when he dies because you don't spend more time with him do you know what I mean like it's it's okay there's the one scene or the one moment within the scene where the lady falls and she's carrying the baby and the baby falls and then the horse steps on the baby and it's one of those things where it's It's just like, I, like, screamed, obviously, obviously. And it's, it's part of what I think is so obviously effective. I don't know why I just brought that up. I was just like, okay. Well, I think it's interesting. I was surprised when I revisited just to see that it was PG-13 because I was like,

geez, Louise. When I saw this in 2019, my main memory of it or of the massacre itself, I was like, that thing is so violent. Right. And I think, not to be like in today's movie, but like we're so indoctrinated towards like the Marvel goop of like a PG-13 movie that has violence, but like is sort of like a weird fake violence that to see like taste. Whereas like in the context of it, a million people have just died in front of your eyes. It seems like it's horrifying. And it's like there's very little blood, but like the violence is really potent.

But I think that's what I think that's what you said though. I think these days the determining factor may well be like. how bloody is it? You know what I mean? Like, there are these, there are murders and there are, you know, stabbing's and whatnot, but so long as you don't have these, like, big, gushy, like, you know, penetration wounds and whatever, that they're like, oh, okay, well, you know, we'll give it a PG-13. I wrote down Frederick Wiseman's name as I'm watching this, because I'm, like, obviously, like, Wiseman does documentaries, but there is a, um, there's a holistic, obviously, nature to the way Wiseman, again, sort of like casts a wide net and shows larger ecosystems within, you know, a specific subject. And I think that's a thing that Lee absolutely does with this, where he just sort of, there's a lot of moving parts in that went into building up to this moment. And I think he shows how, you know, this sort of, you know, this sort of,

of this, this, this functioning machine of a movement is, is working. Well, Wiseman's such a process guy, and this is very much a process movie. Yeah. I thought a lot about Wiseman with this year's evil does not exist, the Hamaguchi movie. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet. There's a, there's a scene in that movie that's straight out of Frederick Wiseman. Nice. Nice. I'm just trying to go through my notes and see if I've missed anything.

the woman throwing the potatoes, a queen and Kiro, and I literally wrote down, throw those potatoes. Like, yeah, you throw that potato. The guy who, uh, is so annoyed by Rory Keneer that he's like, I'm going to the pub. Like this, like, fuck you, fuck this. Um, and probably, you know, maybe owes, owes his life to that. Um, I imagine like I imagine the people who were shown as being sort of like leaders of this movement were real people. Again, I'm a dumb American. But apparently they don't teach this event in English schools either. I think everyone is playing real.

Yeah. Any other thoughts before we sort of move into? I guess, Chris, did we talk about this year's Venice Film Festival when we did the Sisters Brothers recently? Uh, we would have, yeah, Roma wins the golden lion. It's very easy to see in a lineup that includes films like Roma, even the Nightingale, how this movie could kind of slip under the radar. Yeah. Um, it won the human rights film network award at Venice, which feels very much like you, you did an important thing. You know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's, it's not quite national border of review, uh, award. Uh, uh, awards. for excellence in, you know, what's the name of the award? We did a fake award for it at our superlatives, Chris, where it's like Freedom of Expression Award. Right.

Freedom of Expression Award. Right, right, right, right. Where it's like the seat. It's like you made a movie about politics or freedom of speech in some way. Which just sort of makes it sound bullshit, but it's not bullshit. It's a good movie. It's such an interesting Venice lineup because imagine being in a festival jury and you have to watch, you know,

watch and judge and perhaps award Peterloo and Voxlux in the same day. Oh, all right. Slow Nemesh's horrid sunset. Yeah, what are the best like back-to-back movies who's the head of the jury that year? Guillermo del Toro.

Yeah. Oh. Well, not someone who I think would have liked Peterloo very much. Yeah, probably not. Perhaps not. His taste in movies is interesting. yeah i mean he both has that like likes everything but this does feel i don't know outside of outside of the everything that he likes yeah what's more interesting i think is even just the

lineup of amazon movies that this kind of got lumped with because their fall movies this was originally supposed to come out in the fall of 2018 and as it's getting kind of a non you know, there's not really any enthusiasm out on the festival circuit. They punt it to spring of 2019, whereas the fall Amazon movies are life itself, beautiful boy, Susperia, and Cold War. And Cold War is kind of like their Hail Mary Oscar movie that they put all of their effort into at the last minute, and they, you know, get those nominations for it. I came around on Susperia and would now call myself a Susperia fan, but in terms of an award's trajectory, I don't think really any of those movies should compare to Peter Lou in any way.

Well, and then you look at their 2019 lineup, which is even more anemic, right? I don't know what Brittany runs a marathon you're talking about. I've never seen Britney Runs a Marathon. I assumed it would be, I saw Run Fat Boy Run back in the day, and I don't need to see another. movie about how overweight person becomes a real person by running. Yeah, no, thank you. I did see the report. I thought the report was fine and good. We definitely saw the aeronauts and talked about it on this very podcast.

Did either of you see Seaburg, see Kristen Stewart as Gene Seaberg in Seaberg? I sure did not. I didn't either. I don't think anybody saw that movie. I think that was one where it screened at a festival and someone did. didn't like it. And everybody was like, well, that's that with that. I think what it was is that it played that Toronto and no one saw it at that Toronto.

What just got a trailer recently where I was like, oh, right, that movie, oh, the Ian McKellen movie, the critic. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, yes, that's right. No one watched that at Toronto last year. So, and sometimes that movie becomes like sound of metal, you know what I mean? So it's just like you never quite know. It's not quite, you know, a one-to-one. This movie got four British independent film association nominations. Yes, we will continue to call them Bifas. The Bifas, the prestigious Bifas, it got nominated for, it lost to the favorite in costume

design, makeup design, and production design. I do love that the Bifas just have a category called effects. Visual effects, special effects, who knows? They're just effects. And that, I like the, the, the possibilities. Personal effects. Right, exactly, exactly. Who had the, yes, the best personal effects on a movie.

It lost to a movie called Early Man that I'm not sure I remember, but you know what? That's an Ardman movie. Isn't that a, yeah, I was going to say that's animated, it's Ardman. Well, it had good effects, apparently, according to Bifa. So, it does sound like I'm saying a B. in a very sort of like lived in accents going to beefer

anyway anything else anything else you want to throw on the heap for Peterloo a great movie that I think if you haven't seen it out there do make an effort it is long but it is on Amazon

and it's right there for you and it's also I think freebie If for some reason, what is, is it that if you are not an Amazon subscriber, you can still watch it on freebie, but just watch commercials? Is that how freebie works? Yeah. That's, that's weird. I mean, at least it makes these movies more available, too, because that's the thing with some of these streaming movies is like, not everybody has every service. So it's like, if you want to watch Peterloo, like, how available is Peterloo to you?

Or it's like on Netflix, if you want to watch private life, is it, and you don't have Netflix, how the hell are you going to watch private life, you know? Indeed. I would say one Lee movie that we haven't mentioned by name that I would tell listeners to go check out. That is life is sweet. That was like the first movie that I think the critical establishment

here in America at least got behind. And it's a really good movie too. Like, I don't, I feel like I'm not the smartest person to talk about Lee movies in a way that I'm just going to be like, it's really good, you should watch it. But maybe that's also the best way to access a Lee movie and, you know, let his movies surprise you. And it's just like the surprise of human life. Were there like Jane Horrocks Oscar buzz for that movie? Timothy Spall as like a quintessential that guy. Like he, Timothy Swall just shows up in that movie and you're like, oh, this fucking guy.

Yeah, but yet, Jane Horrocks did win supporting actress from National Society of and critics I'm seeing, so also that. I'll check it out. I would also say for for Lee newbies who want to watch Peterloo, who are like, I got to get in even before Hard Truths. Like, I do think topsy-turvy, though extremely different in tone, is doing a really similar thing in form and function as it is sort of building the life of like a company rather than a city. And I think if you have any inkling of affection towards musical theater,

it's also just like a really good time. Plus it will absolutely make you think of that cursed Studio 60 on the sunset strip moment where they sing the modern major general song. But to, what the hell do they do? Talk about great Timothy Spall performances too. I feel like nobody talks about Timothy Spall when they talk about Topsie Turvey. And that is crazy. Like, Timothy Spall should, like, if I can maybe throw an Oscar nomination to any, to one Timothy Spall, Mike Lee performance, it would probably be Topsy Turvey, even though it's a supporting performance. The thing about Topsy Turvey is it, like, it essentially casts a decade's worth of English movies that would, like, cross the pond, right?

Because it's, like, Broadbends in it, Leslie Manville's in it, Spall. Shirley Henderson. Shirley Henderson, Kevin McKid, Andy Circus. You know what I mean? It's just Ashley Jensen's in that movie. Obviously, Allison Stedman shows up in that movie. Like, it's just, I think all of these, the Mike Lee movies, especially the 90s ones, to a degree, you go back and watch it and just like, oh, that's that person that I've seen in like eight billion things. Of all the people who pop up for like two seconds in older Mike Lee movies, I do like to think about what if. Andy Circus had done more of those before he got sort of caught up in the machine that he's in now, just because I think he's great fun in

Topsy Turvy and in Career Girls. Mikely got a great performance out of James Corden and all or nothing. I always say, I love to say this. It's like he's great in that movie. Let Mike Lee make a Planet of the Apes movie, you cowards. Well, I mean, well, maybe.

You'd watch it. You'd watch it. You'd both watch it. I'd watch it. I'd watch it. Yeah. maybe social realism is like what those movies are missing. He would have them rehearsed. What would that be? It would be blank of or blank for the planet of the apes. It would be like... Tea time.

Groceries for the planet of the a game. But he would have them just like sit around and get to know each other in the mocap apparatuses for just weeks and weeks on end. And you would have the absolute most lived in ape society ever. And honestly, it would get me to watch, is all I'm saying. Is all I'm saying. All right. Chris, why don't you explain what the IMDB game is?

So, every episode, we end with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That is the IMDB game.

Fran, you are our guest. So we are giving you the choice of whether you want to give your, give your, the name that you have selected out first. I've decided. If you want to make us guest first or if you would like to guess first. I need to go behind the curtain for a second because I decided two weeks ago that I was going to revolution the way we talk about this because I always found it to be too cumbersome and confusing that we overwhelm our guests with choices. And then I forgot to do the thing where I write it down

ahead of time. And so now I'm trying to remember the absolute crystal clarity that I had in the perfect way to introduce this game. So now I am confusing our guests even more when I get to this point. Fran, would you like to guess first or last? I'll guess last. Okay. Okay. Which means you will be giving a name to either Joe or I. Who would you like to make guess? Oh, uh, Joe. All right. See, Chris did it. Chris did it good. Okay. Um, so who have you chosen to quiz me?

Well, I did not want to choose anyone from this movie because they are too random. Thank you. So I went in a slightly different, I went in the direction of Peter and I went to Peter Sarsgaard. Oh, lovely. Okay. Do you think Peter Sarsgaard calls the bathroom in his house the Peterloo? Yes. I hope so. Okay.

Peter Sarsgaard. No television, no animation. What an odd thing if, like, you had an animated movie and you're like, get me Peter Sarsgarde. What if Peter Sarsgarde was in, like, the crudes? You could tell me that he was. I believe you. That would be a very sexy crew. Have either one of you seen?

I know, Chris, I ask you this all the time. Have either one of you seen John Mullaney and the Sacklaunch Bunch? One of my favorite sketches in that is the kids' focus group for the animated movie where Malini is like... And who do we think did the voice of Kiki the Boa Constrictor? Elizabeth Banks. At first I was like, who is this? Is it Anna Kendrick?

Is it Elizabeth Banks? And it was. Wasn't Anna Kendrick Doddy the Dodo? Very good. It was Anna Kendrick. But who knows who did the voice of her husband and or brother, Denny the Dodo? It was definitely someone, and frankly, it was driving me crazy. Okay, raise your hands if you could tell that the voice of Denny the Dodo was someone, but you couldn't quite place him.

It was Jeremy Renner. Oh, yeah. It's a wonderful, wonderful program. I love it so much. Anyway, I'm stalling. Peter Sarsgaard. I'm just going to guess Shattered Glass. Yep. Okay.

Good start. Good start. Um The Batman Okay You are the only person That remember is that Peter Sarsgarde is in the bat I know

I don't even like the Batman It is really funny that he's like Is he like a suicide bomber? No he gets He gets strapped to a bomb Right This is the Pattinson one This is the Pattinson one

Yes I never saw it Okay Imagine Robert Pattinson and Jeffrey Wright staring quizzically at a bunch of clues for, like, ever, and neither one of them is, like, getting a good inkling as to what's going on, and that's that whole movie. Pattinson's jawline, flawless, as you might expect. Okay. Peter Sarsgaard, Kinsey. Mm-hmm.

Okay. All right. All right. We're getting back into it. I'm trying to think of, like, what. mode is like the popular Peter Sarsgaard mode. Is it like secret villain or sort of functionary? He doesn't have a ton of lead roles, obviously.

The Lost Daughter? Okay. What are my ears? His function in that movie is to just be hot. Yeah, well, he succeeds. What are my years? What are your years? Do you want both years? Yeah, for the ones I haven't gotten yet.

2004 and 2013. Another 2004 that isn't Kinsey, is it Garden State? That's correct. I should have guessed that earlier. Particularly because, A, we did an episode recently, and B, our dear friend Matt Jacobs just did a tremendous article for The Ringer, an oral history on the Garden State soundtrack. Go read that if you haven't. Okay, what's the other year? 2013.

I forgot he was in this movie. That's encouraging. That is very correct, because when I pulled this up, I was like, oh, yes, he is in that movie. Yeah, he's not in sort of the top people I remember as being in that movie. That's too late for the, I can't remember which. No, he's not in the Hulk movie. He's in the Green Lantern, but that's also too late for the Green Lantern. Oh, that's right.

he's the villain in the green lantern. Sure is. Sure is. All right. 2013, a movie that nobody remembers or that nobody remembers that he's in. Yes. Yeah. People definitely remember this movie.

He's not one of the 18 billion people in 12 years of slave, I don't think. No. No, but you are on the right path. In that it was like a Best Picture nominee? No, but might have won something else. Oh. in 2013. It was probably close to being a Best Picture nominee.

Okay. Okay. Who were the winners in 2013? You had, he's not in Dallas Buyers Club, but that was a Best Picture nominee anyway. Who won Best Actress that year? It's probably not going to matter.

Oh, wait. No. it does matter, because he's in blue jasmine. He's the swell, right? He's sort of the handsome guy that she starts to date, and then it turns out to be all wrong. He's like a real estate agent or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that probably came close to being a Best Picture nominee. I think people really wanted to thread the needle that year of like, we want to nominate Cape Lanchett and pretend that Woody Allen had nothing to do with this movie. And she just kept thanking Woody Allen in her speeches, and everybody's like, just, uh, nix that.

Yeah. Okay. Um, thank you. That was, uh, more challenging than, than I thought it would be, which is exactly what I want out of an IMD game.

Very well done. All right. Chris, for you, I don't think we've done this person. And, uh, we,

I mentioned him earlier in our Mike Lee talk, uh, Mr. David Thulis. David Thulis. Okay. No television. No television.

So no big mouth, which is both television and animation, that he's tremendously good. I realize that it is insane that that show is still on, but from what I remember him on Big Mouth, he's really good. He's really good. He's the shame wizard. Thuleous. Naked has to be on there. Correct. Yeah, because he got, like, critics prizes for that.

He did. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azcaban? Not the Prisoner of Ascaband. uh deathly hallows part two yes deathly hallos part two that is the catch basin for all of the harry potter cast members in the i mdb game is yeah if it's not like when they are introduced just say part two oh interesting okay good tip good tip yes uh yeah because melda staunton definitely has order the phoenix on there um it's either when they're introduced or just say the end one thulis is kind of amazing in Prisoner Vascaband. It's sort of nuts. No, it's great. He's like hot in that movie. Also that. He's great. Yes. He's great whenever he shows up

in that series, but yes. Here's the thing for the... It's not the problem with J.K. Rowling. There are many, many problems and much, much bigger than this. But the thing where everybody decided that because J.K. Rowling's the worst, that they have to pretend that they never liked the Harry Potter or anything,

we do have to stop mentioning all of the actors who are like bang and great in all of those movies. And It's too bad. I most recently rewatched Prisoner of Ascomband, and even that was like years ago. But all the adult performance, that's sort of like the main one where the adults are giving performance is like adults. Except for Emma Thompson, who's like Emma Thompson's out of her mind. She's vibing.

She's vibing. She's vibing. You know who's vibing in that movie? Michael Gambon. Well, he's, yeah. But I just remember like, Rascal Dumbledore. Having like the full school. of all these guys now as like adult performers and not being 12 or 13 years old and being

like, this, this actually has a lot of, a lot more depth than people are willing to give this credit. Yeah. Yeah. For happen. All right. So, Chris, you have two of four and I don't think you've given a wrong answer yet. No, I did because I said prisoner of basketball. You did say prisoner of basketball. You've got one wrong answer. I might just throw something out to get the years because I'm already hitting a wall with Thulis, which sucks because he's a great performer. What else? He's, like, really good at being, like, a gross guy. See, also, naked.

I'm just going to say Deathly Hallows part one. Yeah, incorrect, but that's a smart strategy. So now you get your years. Your years are 2014 and 2017. Wow. Which means, alas, it's not the island of Dr. Moreau, which is the very first time I'd ever heard of David Thuilis, Was the island of Dr. Moreau?

He's actually the lead of that movie. Okay, so these are actually post-Hary Potter is the other thing. Was he in an Alex Garland movie? No, but that would be cool. It would be cool. Or like a Richard Curtis. Like, why do I want to say about time when I know he's not in about time? He's not, but he should also be in a Richard Curtis movie.

Right. He should be in a movie that is, Written by Alex Garland and directed by Richard Curtis. And then another movie that is written by Richard Curtis and directed by Alex Carlin. I don't want to see those movies. And they should play in rep one day on, one day off. All right, continue. Blend them together in their Cloud Atlas.

2014, 2017. Has Thulis Don O' Waschowski? No. Great in a Wichowski movie. Not done a Wichowski. Okay. One of these was a Best Picture nominee. and one of these was a huge hit that has a decent degree of buyer's remorse for myriad reasons.

One are the different ways in which people have buyer's remorse for movies. Many people involved have been canceled. Well, not many, but... Shitty sequels, like really, really bad. You've hit on both of the things that apply to this movie. So there's that, yes. Oh, is this the 2017 movie? Yes.

Okay. So. And it's the original. Yes. Although it's part of a greater franchise. Right. It's not like a rebooted franchise. It's like a...

And it's not... Cinematic universe, except not the one you're talking about. no um he's the main villain of this movie but you don't find out until the very end interesting see i i was like he is the villain in something it's not like g. i joe no it's not like gai jo um but it's like a fantasy is it fantasy yeah it's like it's what you know what's the dominant mode of action filmmaking of the last 20 years. Hunger Games E. No, but like what kinds of movies are everybody sick of?

No, what kinds of movies? Superheroes. There you go, yes. So it's a superhero, but it's not, it's not Marvel, is it? He's not been in Marvel movies. Is it D.C.? Yes. Is it Man of Steel?

You're in the wrong gender, my friend. Oh, it's Wonder Woman. Yes, there you go. He's in Wonder Woman. As Aries. He's the bad guy in Wonder Woman as Aries, indeed. Yeah. A lot of his, he's very Cgi-Ied up in that.

He has like a fake body, which is why that's a little hard. It's like his face on a juiced up body. Yeah. Yes. It's weird. We all, I was part of the problem with Wonder Woman. I was like, yeah, Wonder Woman is a great movie. Me too.

Oh, me too. I like Wonder Woman. I haven't maybe seen it since theaters, but like that sequel. Wow. Listen, we were starved for anything that seemed like big budget filmmaking in that era, and we were still like, ooh. Okay. Best Picture nominee 2014. Oscar winner, although not in a Best Picture category, but like in a major category.

Theory of everything? The theory of everything. How the fuck is he in theory of everything? I don't remember. I do not recall him in that movie. That is insane. That is insane. All right.

Chris, you're quizzing for him. All right. For you, I had to go into the Mike Lee stable of actors and who better to pick than the lovely Leslie Manville. Yay. Lovely. Leslie Manville.

Is Let Him Go one of them? You've got to be kidding me. You are coming out the gate with Let Him Go, the one that is supposed to trip you up. No, I love that movie. She goes, don't you want any of my pork chop. Have you got to seen it? I kind of

really, really hated it. It's not good. But she is really... Wait, let him go the Kevin Costner Diane Lane, grandparents on the run. Her name is Blanche Weeboy. She's so funny in it. She really... I mean, if there's... She's having a good goddamn time. Like a supercut of only Leslie Manville scenes. The rest of it is very

tedious. I think Fran's going to on the table on this, is all I'm going to say. Listen, we love when a guess gets a perfect score, and I think at this point this is very possible. Okay, okay, okay. Let him go. There probably is elite in there. I'm going to guess another year.

Another year is correct. Well time. Okay. Is Phantom Thread in there? Phantom Threat is correct. You have one title left to go, and you have no wrong guesses. Is it Mrs. Harris? Yes.

Perfect score. Well, yay, these are also a recent. I know, very recent. She wasn't doing, like, bigger stuff. I'm always surprised that she didn't pop up in, like, a Potter or a other thing. It is true. She's one of the, like, most, uh, weren't you in a Harry Potter, but not people. I mean, a lot of her lead performances, she's kind of a bit player.

And even, like, Topsie Turvey, she has a bigger impact on that movie than her screen time really suggests. Like, her scenes are just like, you know, knock you sideways, but she's not in very much of it. Here's a supplemental trivia question. Fran, who has been a loyal participant in my trivia nights and I have, I'm working on another one, Fran, just so you know. I'm a regular loser at it, but I'm determined to improve.

You are a tremendous asset to those trivia nights. She was one of the three. Three fairies in the Maleficent movies. Can you remember who the other two were? Wow. I've not seen either of those. Chris, this is for you as well. I got to say the second Maleficent is fucking stupid, but it is really fun.

I am too much fun with that not good at all movie. Oh, I know the answer. Who is it? It's Lucy Punch and Burr. Ransky, right? No. No, this is Into the Woods. You're thinking of Into the Woods.

No, it's Amelda Staunton. I was going to say it's a Maldastonan. It's Amelda Staunton is one of the other ones. Is it like a Lucy Punch, though? It's not not like a Lucy Punch. I don't know if they're necessarily interchangeable, but like you might put them in a, you might have at one point put a minute in my bucket. Is it someone like same age?

group as Emelda and Leslie and then it's someone quite a bit younger. It's not like Rebel Wilson,

is it? No, it's not Rebel Wilson. It's someone much more easy to take. She's nominated for an Emmy

this year for is she nominated? She might not have been nominated for Fargo. She was in Newark Juno Temple. Juno Temple.

Yeah, yeah, yes. Famous Lucy Punch basically. All respect to Lucy Punch. Right, exactly. Okay. That was a fun IMDB game, you guys. That was very good. All right. That is... I believe you are our second guest to ever get a perfect score. Listeners will tell us. I was going to say, somebody, we need a show historian so bad for absolutely no money and just out of enthusiasm. So if anybody wants to do that, I don't know. Okay. That's our episode. Fran Hoffner, just a tremendous debut performance on this.

Thank you so much for having me. Killing it right out of the gate. Where would you like to direct our listeners for more of you? I know you are, you and I are sharing vulture space. We're sharing vulture space. Yeah, I do some celebrity coverage for vulture. I do some movie coverage for bright, wall, dark room, which I'll definitely be doing this fall.

And I do everything else on Fran Magazine. Yes, including covering. when you go to the festival, the film festival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A thing that I, like, intimately connect to you. So, um, uh, that's funny. I get it from your past guest Cameron Sheets, who introduced me to the Laura Dern clip of I'm at the film film festival.

I also think of Cameron, but I feel like you've like usurped Cameron a little bit. This is a no shade to Cam, who I love, obviously. Fair, fair. All right, that is our episode, uh, listeners. If you want more, this at Oscar Buzz, you can check. check out the Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.tumbler.com. You should also follow our Twitter account at had underscore Oscar underscore buzz, our Instagram at ThisHad Oscar Buzz, and our Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz.

Chris, where can the listeners find more of you? Twitter and letterboxed at Chris V. File. I am also Twitter and letterboxed at Joe Reed, Reed spelled R-E-I-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork. Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance, Taylor Cole for our awesome theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility.

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