This Had Oscar Buzz - 310 – Man on the Moon

Episode Date: September 30, 2024

In 1999, director Milos Forman reunited with his People Vs. Larry Flynt screenwriters Scott Alexander and Larry Karaszewski for another biopic of an iconoclast, Man on the Moon. Rebounding from the Oscar snub for The Truman Show, Jim Carrey took on the role of Andy Kaufman and according to history, took it a bit too seriously. The film received … Continue reading "310 – Man on the Moon"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Millen Hack and French. Dick Pooh I am Andy I want to be the biggest star in the world Your act is like amateur out

And I'm not like everybody else I really like what you did out there I'm not a comedian I don't want to go for cheap laughs You chart What's wrong with this guy They detest you. That means we're a success.

40 million people are watching you every week. Party time for Latka. Some of us at Saturday Night Live think Andy Coppins a comic genius. Thank you very much. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast emceeing the Ho Down for AIDS. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform. the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my cohort who steps

into my second created character, who then maybe also spends decades lying about my legacy for their own gain before being played by Paul Giamati in the bad movie about me, Joe Reed. Ah, what are you doing out here? You all look like pieces of shit. You know, I think the Andy Kaufman, Bob Zimuda, uh, version of, and the Tony Clifton version of this podcast is basically just all the listeners. who still can't tell us apart. Yeah, yes. We could trick them so easily

by pulling a Kaufman's muda. All of a sudden, I get up here and I'm like, what's my Chris File impersonation? Oh, hey. Heteronormitivity. Heteronormitivity sucks. I love Joan Micklin Silver.

This is from our text threat this morning. What else? What else is very file core? Joe Flam, get in my, bedroom. The spectrum of my hots for Joe Flam and Peter Rieger. Like, it's just like checking all the boxes. Yeah, exactly. And you get up here and you're like, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo. I'm like, you know, here in Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo. Buffalo, Buffalo. I am that sentence. I am the Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo. Have you ever heard

that thing? No. Where there's, that a sentence exists that is Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, Buffalo, and it like completely makes sense on a like grammatical level because it's based off of punctuation or based off of using the word buffalo in the various different meanings of it like as a verb as an adjective and as the city how is buffalo an adjective like us person from buffalo so you would say buffalo man you know buffalo's that's an adjective right oh wait advert i was thinking adverb no adjective. Buffalo running. Right. Running buffalo. Running Buffalo. I don't know. What do your people run like? Is it distinct in your part of the country? We run slowly? I don't know. We're full of chicken wings, man.

This very annoying, stupid running bit that we've just done is funnier than anything in this bad biopic. Okay, this is interesting. I had no idea how you were going to enter this episode on Man on the Moon. And I was kind of bracing myself for being the negative Nelly on this movie. But now I see that I'm going to be the positive poly on this movie because, like, I don't, I don't love it, but I don't seemingly hate it the way you're coming in hot right now. Maybe this is just, like, retroactive self-loving coming in because I remember seeing this. movie as a 12 year old and being like this is a masterpiece

Jim Carrey has changed the art form forever. I had this poster I thought that this was so great. Wait what did the what which version of the postage? It's just the one with the spotlight and the red curtain blah blah blah and he's standing yeah yeah this movie sucks. This is

fascinating. It is the I think this is my new poster child for bland biopic and authorized biography except the problem with this authorizing biography is that it's authorized by a fucking liar like well this is the zamuda version of andy coffman and i'm not some andy coffman purist you know but it's just it's so clearly through that lens of yeah you know you know i don't think that this movie is sending out the lie that

like zamuda would have you believe that it's like andy coffman faked his own death you know right I don't think the movie even really believes that I think the movie ends itself with a wink But like I think the movie even knows that like we're fucking with you Right but But the The lens is clearly That version of events

And it's like this is a movie that most people who knew and were associated With Andy Kaufman have renounced this movie Like Carol Kane is in this movie as One of his taxi co-star as herself but I you know there's been people who've come out that are like that movie's bullshit um well just in terms of presenting Andy Kaufman as someone who was you know pulling one over on his closest collaborators and such when it you know he did keep those people in on the joke so this is not I should stress though it is very much like Bob's

Moody very much as a producer on this, but Lynn Margulies also, who is the character who Courtney Love plays, was also very much a part of the works for this movie. And as far as I know has never disavowed that and was like an instrumental part in getting the Jim and Andy documentary on to, I want to say it was on Showtime. I actually reviewed it back in the day. It might have been Netflix. I definitely reviewed it. So yeah, Netflix makes sense. And that documentary, which I didn't make time for, apparently makes Carrie seem like a real piece of work. It really does. In many ways, it's funny, I was going to get into this sort of later, but Richard Brody reviewed that documentary for The New Yorker and sort of made a kind of grand unified sort of statement about how Man on the Moon falls short and the documentary to a degree falls short, both of which because they didn't really, invest themselves fully in the performativeness of Andy. And sort of his idea was that Man on the Moon, the biopic, should have just been the raw footage of Carrie playing Andy on set and unable to, you know, or unwilling to extricate himself from this performance as a sort of like Blair Witch style found footage. And on one level, it's like, that's an interesting idea. And I do feel like Jim and Andy, to me, God, we really are starting at the end, aren't we? We're starting like literally like 16 years after the movie is how much the end we're starting.

But like, so Jim and Andy is a documentary, behind the scenes documentary that was put on, I think you're right about Netflix in like 2015, 2016, something like that. which was essentially documenting Jim Carrey's process of filming Man on the Moon, including like getting into deep characters, Andy Kaufman, essentially being, you know, insisting on being addressed as Andy by like Milosh Foreman, and doing a lot of these sort of like, to me, what seems like, kind of predictable stunts in terms of like, method, you know, the classic actor, misunderstanding what the method is and not even being trained in the method. Well, and just sort of like doing the like the performance art stunt version of doing the Andy Kaufman thing. But so in many ways, that at the very least does the work of kind of letting you burrow into the diseased head of.

a comedian, you know what I mean? And like sort of the lengths to which they feel like they have to go in order to live up to some sort of standard. And it kind of embeds you. It's very much like, you know, I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me. It's just sort of this inescapable thing where sort of everybody who's making this movie is stuck here with Jim doing Andy and sort of making himself this nightmare. And at the same time, never quite knowing how much of this is a put-on, how much of this is Jim kind of losing his mind a little bit. Carrie comments on this from after the fact

and sort of talks about it as a sort of jekyll and hide personality thing. And in general, I think it's not a particularly, I don't think, flattering portrait of Carrie, but it's an illuminating one in a way where man on the moon, and I'll get into this as we go, along, I think ultimately, man on the moon boxes itself in from the break and ultimately cannot be satisfying on either level. It cannot be insightful because that's not available. Like, that insight is not available to you. And any attempt to draw insight from Andy

Kaufman would feel false. And yet, it is impossible. To think of making a movie about the life of Andy Kaufman where you wouldn't, where the audience, the audience's first question wouldn't be, why? Why was he like this? Why, to what end was he like this? And at what point did the character and Andy begin? And the movie is insistent on not answering that. And the movie's answer to that seems to be there was no. You know what I mean? there was no end to it. There was no distinction to it. And it's like, that's great. But ultimately then, am I not just better served watching old footage of Andy Kaufman rather than just sort of putting Jim Carrey through this burlesque? And then once again, you reach the end of that loop and you're like, is it then the story more interesting if it's the Jim Carrey story rather than Well, this is my thing about this movie. And I guess you could maybe say that this makes the movie more interesting than it is. But the movie has a twofold problem. One, it is the most

boring, straightforward authorized biography movie I've seen in a minute. Second of all, it's more a movie about Jim Carrey than it is a movie about Andy Kaufman because it's a performance that's so obviously at the same time satisfied with itself and being very, you know, child, look at what I can do um you know someone like performing for you know their parents friends coming over very that but also so like nakedly tortured in terms of getting it right and it doesn't feel like the performance knows what it wants to get right like maybe it's being exacting and down to the exact details of how Andy Kaufman performed these bits but that in a of itself is not interesting to watch, especially when it's way more funny to just go and

watch the Andy Kaufman bits, like, see that actual performer. Why would I want to watch someone exactly perform something as it was originally done? That doesn't illuminate anything about that person. Yeah. And it does illuminate a lot about Jim Carrey, and none of it is flattering. I would agree with all of that. Jim Carrey not good at flattering himself. We should mention the virulently anti-Vax Jim Carrey. Yeah. Fair, fair. I do think there are some interesting angles to this, though, in terms of Andy Kaufman as a

cultural object, more so than a person. And I definitely want to get into that on the other end of it. But it's, and of course, the other part of this is, Man on the Moon is part of this sort of 1999 vanguard right of you know these great movies and this movie is sort of always kind of placed in that company and while there's fans of this movie who will you know bring it above the sea tier of i think this is basically just like not even middle brow there are people who very much do love this movie it it screened at ebert fest this year there was a whole Q&A with Scholar

Alexander and Larry Karazuski. The screenwriters were definitely going to get into them. I know Tim Grierson wrote a appraisal of it for its anniversary somewhat recently. And in general,

like we are definitely not the be all and end all of critical consensus on this you know, by any nouns. But I think it fits more into, to that zeitgeist of 99 almost more

so as an object than a film and that like there is this great ambition. I imagine there the idea of making a movie about Andy Kaufman's life probably started right around the moment that he died. You know what I mean? Because he was such a character.

Like everything he did in his career was so unusual that you would imagine after the fact somebody would be like, boy, that would make a great movie, you know. And ultimately, the answer to that is not really. It's much harder to make his story a great movie for reasons that are incredibly integral to Kaufman as a performer and as a character. But I will get to that.

You maybe need a more daring, more visceral approach than it appears Foreman is willing to give this movie in a lot of what. You know, this is his follow-up. There's a lot of reasons, even outside of the Jim Carrey and biopic sphere of this. This is, you know, Milosh Foreman's follow-up to People v. Larry Flint. It's Alexander and Karziewski's follow-up to Ed Wood. Mm-hmm. Well, they also, I thought they did People v. Larry Flynn as well. Oh, that is true.

They did that as well. Yeah. And in so many ways, this movie feels like lesser people versus Larry Flint. Like they just kind of copy-pasted the approach. When was the last time you saw People v. Larry Flint? I've seen it since the pandemic. Oh, you have? Really, really disappointed me.

Okay, talk about it because I haven't seen that movie in probably 20 years at least. That also felt like a movie that, you know, I do think that there's more ambition and daring in that movie than this one, because it does kind of, especially in the final stretches, go into this kind of not family. sequence, but like a surreality within a biopic frame that, you know, this movie never does. This movie is just so straightforward. It is hitting all of the greatest hits, you know, meanwhile mixing the timeline of when certain thing happened so that it makes it more dramatically interesting. Like the Carnegie Hall concert in this movie, I'm like, that was actually like four years before they say that it happens in this movie. My memory of People versus Larry Flint is a movie that kind of lionizes Larry Flint, and that definitely felt like it was reflected in the awards campaign for that movie, which... Well, because they made the bad decision, maybe, of keeping Larry Flint around to... Kept throwing him onto red carpets to say insulting things, and yeah. But I do think that that is a movie that is way too straightforward than it needs to be. I didn't really find it very envelope pushing.

Woody Harrelson's great. Courtney Love is great. I thought Courtney Love was even great in this movie, too, and it's not asking her to do anything. She's an incredibly enigmatic and magnetic. God, did I use those two words because they sound alike? I don't know. She's an incredibly compelling screen presence.

Yes, yes. And just a natural screen presence, too. Like, she's just asked to be basically the girl, like, it's so interesting that the woman that she is playing was so involved with this movie when it does absolutely nothing to make her interesting or more than a stock character. You know what I mean? Like, I guess their romance sort of takes up some real estate, but not overly so, I would say. I mean, she doesn't appear until an hour into the movie. Right. But, yeah, there's not much more to say because the character.

Characters not that interesting, but Courtney Love, even just playing a straightforward role, is so, so much more interesting and, like, compelling to watch than I think Carrie is in this movie. Carrie is compelling to watch in a way that's uncomfortable in an unintentional way. I feel like... But, yes, Larry Flint, People versus Larry Flint is not a movie that I love, though can see why, you know, it got the Oscar nominations that it did. but it was somewhat of a disappointment. It was kind of seen as a potential frontrunner early on in that season. Oh, that it didn't get a best picture nomination as pretty much a disappointment. We could never, I don't think we could ever credibly do it as like a Patreon movie

because it did get just too many high-level Oscar nominations. But it definitely did fall short of what they, you know, they hoped for. And a lot of those expectations. come in place because of Milosh Foreman, he's won Best Picture, Best Director, and for films that won Best Actor twice. There's Cuckoo's Nest and there's Amadeus, which I'm so glad Amadeus is, you know, coming back into the popular lexicon as like a full-on banger movie. You still have to see it. I still have to see it. Oh, man, you're going to flip your shit for that movie. It's so good. It's so good. I know. It's just like four hours long, so I got to like really

carve out a spot for it. Well, and I think, at least of my generation, you know, after it had had, you know, a decade of being a popular movie, I think this erroneous perception around that movie was just another stuffy costume drama. Right, right. And you just so want the Milosh Foreman who made that movie to be the Milo Schormann who directed this movie because their night and day kind of presentations of real people. who lived, it doesn't have 10% of what's interesting about Amadeus and what's interesting and compelling

on a character level present here. I would venture that it's easier to do that with Amadeus because nobody is alive who was alive when Amadeus was alive. Sure, you can take whatever liberty you want. I think the proximity, it's not only just like the people who will complain and taking liberties, I think the proximity to people who grew up watching Andy Kaufman really I don't want to say poisons the well, but I think it does ultimately change the way that audiences will accept a movie like that and that creatives will approach a movie like that. And I think there is...

It's harder to take off those rose-tinned glasses. This is a revered comedic figure. And not only... I think in this case, it's not that people want to, like, preserve Andy's, you know, reputation as a person. I think they want to be respectful to Andy as a performer and to, you know, to preserve this idea of his, you know, comedic genius. And that involves not dismantling that. And that involves not digging too deeply into the wise of it all. And I think when you read the reviews that praise this movie, that is a thing that people who like this movie really like.

People who like this movie really like that this movie does not purport to offer answers. And to that degree, I think they're probably right. I don't think I would have been more satisfied with a movie that offers answers. But, and this is maybe a thing that is my bugaboo often, is I don't know how an audience approaches a movie about Andy Kaufman without being like, what is this going to tell me about. why he was the way he is. It is the most natural thing to think of in like, what a bizarre person. I wonder

what was what was behind that or else, why are you making a movie? And I would venture, no, you know what? I'm going to save that till later. I'm front-loading my arguments. Well, then I'll jump in here and say that is a problem with this movie is, that's a

natural audience expectation. And this movie has no take, no stance whatsoever beyond. Wasn't he a sad guy. And that's not interesting. That's, you know, I don't know if it necessarily says wasn't he a sad guy. I think it says, wasn't he an unknowable person? You know what I mean? Which to me also is not. Which is also not interesting. Right. Right. It's interesting if you're watching him perform. You know what I mean? It's not interesting if you're making a biopic. to me, the thing that ends up being most on Front Street then is

Carrie flaying himself and like faring so far up his own asshole with the status that he was in at the time and all of the career pressures he was in at the time and also the legacy of Andy Kaufman. It is one of the most, I think, exposing performances that has nothing to do about what is on screen that I've seen in a long time. And none of it was flattering. None of it was comfortable to watch.

And none of it made the movie better. I think maybe I'm coming off too harsh on my rewatch of this movie. But I also think a lot of what I really hated about it was just how generic of a biopic it was. But it is a fascinating document for Carrie at this time in his career. that we'll get into. What was the episode where we talked about Jim Carrey? Oh, you know what?

It wasn't an episode. It was when we did our awards speech rankings for Vulture, when we talked about Jim Carrey at the MTV Movie Awards, which I think a lot of people misremember that as him accepting an award for Man on the Moon because it's him getting deep into character as this like Jim Morrison's hippie guy. I like it saying to all the ladies.

We're dressing up so pretty. Or some fine-looking pussy in this room tonight, I'll tell you that. And it wasn't. It was him accepting an award for the Truman Show while he was in the middle of making Man on the Moon, which is why when he does that, they keep cutting to like Courtney Love, cackling in the audience. Because at that moment, no one was a bigger fan of the Jim Carrey experience than Courtney Love. Than Courtney Love.

Courtney Love was all about this movie because remember, she presented Best Original Song at this Golden Globes. And before she gets into the, like, reading the nominees and the copy, she starts singing The Great Beyond, which wasn't nominated. Which also ties into not only is she advocating for her movie, but like she and Michael Stipe are like, frickin' frack. Right, you know what I mean? So like, or at least were at a time. So like that to me is really interesting. The sort of Mobius strip of R.E.M. writes Man on the Moon as a tribute to Andy that then ties into them wanting to make a movie of, of Andy Kaufman. Milos Schoferman gets attached.

Milo Schoferman having just worked with Courtney brings Courtney in from the people versus Larry Flint. And then Courtney having already been friends with Michael Stipe sort of like. completes that like circle and it's sort of like it's bending back the aurivorous that is this movie and not in the way you expect. Since there's not really much to talk about with Courtney in this movie, I'll just pose this question here and we can move on. If Man on the Moon had happened before people versus Larry Flint, do you think she would have then been able to get the nomination for Larry Flint? It certainly helps her because it makes her seem less like a flash in the pan. Like it makes it seem less like a stunt that she's, you know, I think that was a big part of the

reason why there was pushback against her. And of course, we remember, or at least you and I know both do, that SNL sketch that sort of ties together forever, the fact that the 96 Oscar nominations snubbed at the same time, Courtney Love, Madonna, and Debbie Reynolds all at once. But I think that was a big part of all, a lot of those, I mean, not the Debbie Reynolds thing, obviously, but the Madonna and Courtney Love thing of like, is this just sort of of flash in the pan. Obviously, Madonna had done movies, but not to this sort of prestige degree. I think of those two performances, I think Courtney's is the one that is better remembered, like, as a qualitative way. I think Evita is the more remembered movie, but I think

in general, if you asked like a critic these days which one of those two performances deserved an Oscar nomination that year, I think most of them would tell you Courtney before they told Madonna. We also, all right, if this is going to be our Courtney Love Corner, we're going to talk about two things. First of all, before we get past the whole- We should have a Courtney Love Corner every episode. We really should, and we're going to do it before the plot description. Mentioning Courtney being such a big fan of Jim's in that MTV Movie Awards thing, I should also mention, though, that in the Jim and Andy documentary, we don't see a ton of Courtney, but when we do, it's after Jim has already sort of established himself as like being in character as Andy all the time.

And then while that's going on, Courtney starts acting up on set, you know what I mean? And it's sort of like in a way that like is not necessarily destructive, but it is to me very much like, I'm not getting attention. You know, it's sort of like Courtney loves and dire need for attention and we'll get to get to that in a second. But, and it's the one thing in that entire documentary that seems to throw Jim Carrey, which is somebody else on set demanding attention that he isn't getting. And it's really kind of fascinating to watch these two incredibly talented, but also incredible like attention vultures have to operate in the same oxygen as each other. Another way I think Jim and Andy is really fascinating. Anyway, I mention the Courtney Love is in dire need of attention line, which is taken directly from the... If we ever get to the point of doing live shows, we just need to entirely recreate the Courtney Madonna post VMAs, 96, 96, one of those years.

Whatever it was, it was the year that... Maybe we also just need to bring back Courtney Love as entire need of attention as a thing. that we say in the populace. Like, quote tweet, the ridiculous tweets you see with Courtney Love is in dire need of attention. It's the 95 VMAs because it is the year that Alonis first appeared on the MTV VMAs, where she does, you ought to know, it had just hit big and she was on Maverick Records, which was Madonna's label.

And so that was one of the things, one of the sort of passive aggressive things. So, all right, to set the stage, Madonna's being interviewed. after the VMAs that year. She didn't perform. She was just sort of, she was there. I think she was nominated for, you must love me or something like that. Something. No, it would have been, whatever. No, it would have been too early for Avita. Madonna's there being interviewed by Kurt Loder. Kurt Loder is the most sort of like accommodating, like he is, he's Madonna's sort of like, pet. Is it Kurt Loder or the other guy? No, it's Kurt Loder. All respect to the other guy.

Who is the other guy? John Norris, Chris Connolly? Who do you think is the other? I was thinking of Chris Connolly. No, it's definitely Kurt Loder, which makes it even more incredible because Kurt Loder is just like as dry as a desert in terms of his like reactions to this, which makes it even funnier. So all of a sudden, he's interviewing Madonna about like, you know, how do you think

things went tonight, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, it's the two of them in this two shot. And over the two of them comes this makeup conference. pack that like perfectly arches through the frame and lands on the floor. And the second it does, Kurt Loader's eyes go to the ground. And then he turns behind him and he goes, Hi, Courtney. That's Courtney, everybody's favorite.

Come on up. Should we let her come up? Yeah. No, don't, please. Come on, Courtney. Come on up. Courtney's coming up. Well, come up. Courtney Love is in dire need of attention right now.

She's throwing her compact at me. And of course, the producers in her Zia are probably like, get her up there, bring her up. And so Courtney is messy and is clearly ornery, is clearly like spoiling for a fight. And I think had been like snubbed by Madonna in some manner either earlier that night or or or, and she was also pissed that like Madonna had said in repetition that Madonna had said something in the press or like through mutual friends about something. where, like, she made some snide. Imagine Madonna making a snide comment about somebody else. Madonna used to talk shit, man. Like, it was awesome.

But so in this particular case, this is very much Madonna not being the coolest person in the room because clearly she's rattled. She is rattled by the presence of Courtney Love. And Courtney comes up and she's just like, I don't want to like interrupt, but like, but is like, they're already like putting a chair for her there. And she starts sort of talking Madonna.

She's like, Alana's had a really good night. Congratulations. And Madonna's like, yeah. And like, it's very clipped and like does not want to engage. And Courtney sees it and like is like poca, poca, poca, poca, poca, poca, poca in return. And is just sort of, and finally, and she's, and Kurt starts interviewing her and he's like,

how do you like it? How do you like the Vivian Mays? And she's like, it's a good scene, blah, blah, blah. And I can remember. I can't remember what it was in response to. But, oh, she's still. starts talking about, in the very Courtney way, dating within the industry. And she references Madonna. That's the other thing that pisses Madonna off is she sort of references Madonna and her relationship with Carlos Leon at the time, who was a dancer. And she's like, well, you know what it's like,

Madonna. You've dated within the industry. She's just like, you know, you're sort of, you know, you're the candy striper and you're dating in the hospital. And there are a lot of, like, really hot doctors at the hospital and I like and then so um and then and then and she's like but like these doctors are like fucking assholes and Courtney just goes well maybe you should or Madonna just goes well maybe you should get out of the hospital and and as a burn and Courtney just sort of like looks at her and she's like no I like it here I'm going to get into ask the physicist because this rock star thing is not working out well I think it's doing all right I mean I'm definitely serious

I'm so over the rock star thing. But you don't even do all-star things. You dip, as Michael Stipe would say, dip into the population, right? Yeah. See, it's like working in the hospital and, like, going out with the ambulance driver. Yeah. Like, I want to be a surgeon. I want to be the top surgeon.

Damn it, I want to own the hospital. So, you know, I go out with the other surgeons, they're assholes, right? So, like, maybe I should try a candy striper. I don't think we could get out of the hospital. No, man. I like it in here. Nice clothes. Good money.

and a lot of available drugs. A lot of available... Hey, yeah, the Elvis doctors. Yeah, right. I know him on. And they're like... Like you've never done drugs, Madonna. Well, it's on.

It's fucking on at that point. And it's so passive-aggressive and it's so wonderful. And at one point, Courtney does sort of take a forward tumble off of her chair. And then as she's leaving, and Tabith... She brings in Tabitha Soren at one point because she's got beef with Tabitha Soren. because Tabitha Sorin told somebody that they were both friends with something that was like conceivably mean about Courtney and Courtney's like, I'm sorry, Tabith. I'm being a bitch to you. And she's mostly carrying on this conversation when Tabith is off screen. So it's even better. And then finally, finally Courtney leaves. And she's leaving. And like on her way down, she's like, sorry, I bummed you out, Madonna. It's just like, it's so wonderful. Wonderful. I'm not someone who dunks on Madonna. love Madonna, but Madonna was the loser of this scenario. She was. This is the thing.

But fabulously, like in a way that I'm like, I can't hate Madonna. She's ever been demonstrably a loser. One of which was that. And the other which was when she tore up the picture of Sheney O'Connor on, or no, she tore up the picture of Joey Buttafouca on Saturday Night Live as a, as a, in mockery of Shnade O'Connor and was like, fight the real enemy. In a way of mocking Shnade O'Connor for going after the Catholic Church, the thing that Madonna was always railing against. Like, what are you talking about? It's Madonna's two worst moments in her history.

Anyway, this is why I love Courtney Love. This is why I will always love Courtney Love. This has been the Courtney Love Corner. Courtney Love Corner. All right. All right, it's a Courtney Love Corner jingle. Courtney, reach out to us. Courtney, I can't imagine what Courtney is like these days.

But, like... Courtney Love, great actress. Yes, 100%. Totally true. Absolutely true. All right. Let's move on. Let's get into Man on the Moon.

The other thing about my problem about, this is where I'll maybe put a pin on the Amadeus thing. Amadeus is a movie about real people who lived. But it is also a movie that in and of itself is still about something. a standard straightforward biopic that doesn't have a theme of its own to spare isn't worth anything like the type of hagiography like if that's your only purpose there is a ceiling on how good you're going to be like you still have to have Citizen Kane that is a movie that has something to say beyond Charles Foster Kane was a person who lived like you know Right.

Not to just, you know, pull out one of the greatest movies of all time. Amadeus also one of the greatest movies of all time. But, like, beyond not really having anything to say about Andy Kaufman, and maybe it's not, wasn't he such a sad guy? But, like, in the performance and in the way that this movie portrays him, it's like, oh, but he's just like, just like a child. He's such show child, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't tell us anything not only about him, but it doesn't tell us. us anything about us to sound pretentious for a second. No, you're right. No, you're like, you're not wrong because I think one of the more

valuable ways of doing an Andy Kaufman biopic may have been to sort of paint him in the ways that other people reacted to him rather than him itself because he was such a provocateur and because... Whereas like, there's so much meat on that bone for like, well, Andy Kaufman stays interesting because he taught us so much about what upsets us, what we expect from. performance and like where that can all be manipulated. Like you learn so much about we as an audience watching Andy Kaufman as much as you do about him as a performer.

And this movie's not interested. And because half of that audience seemingly was people who ended up growing up and working in comedy, he's so revered. And I, one of the things that I find fascinating is because I find the whole Andy Kaufman persona so much more frustrating and we'll get into that on the other end of it, on the other end of the plot description is, I think it would be interesting to make the movie about what people who work in comedy find so inspirational and perfect about the way that Andy Kaufman did comedy. Why is he the person who is sort of held up to, you know, this great, I get,

I understand why, but I want to hear it from them. I want to hear it from them. I want to here, I want to take that perspective of Andy Kaufman's legend from the people who have carried it. You know what I mean? All this time. No pun intended to Jim. It's more interesting than the legend itself. Right. And I think ultimately what you end up with here, as I said, is a biopic that knows it cannot provide insight while also leaving itself nowhere to go in the absence of that. the absence of explanation or insight, it doesn't really place anything there. You end up with an empty box. And I don't disagree with you there. Like, in general, you're sort of winning me over to your side, even though I did not emerge from this movie hating it. I did definitely emerge from this movie being like, boy, this movie really writes itself into a corner conceptually and just cannot find a way out of it. Is my... Joe, we have a Patreon.

We sure do. Would you like to tell our listeners about the Patreon and what they'll find over there? Heck, yeah, I will. So, This Had Oscar Buzz has a Patreon called Turbulent Brilliance. It is a $5 a month, monthly subscription, and what you get with that is two bonus episodes of This Had Oscar Buzz every month. The first one that drops monthly is... something that we'll call an exception, which is a movie that could have otherwise found its way onto the This Had Oscar Buzz Main Feed because it fits all of our general

parameters of great expectations and disappointing results, except for the fact that it got an Oscar nomination or two or sometimes even three at the end of the day. And so we can't really talk about it on Main Feed, so we talk about it on the Patreon. This includes movies like Alfonso Quaron's Children of Men, and Barbara Streisand's, The Mirror has two faces, and Baz Lerman's Australia, which we talked about with our good friend, Katie Rich, Ryan Johnson's Knives Out, which we talked about with our good friend, Jorge Molina. Many, many misadventures from Aaron Sorkin, including Charlie Wilson's War, which I don't love, and Molly's game, which I do love. It's just, it's a time. We've covered a lot of really good movies. By this point,

This Patreon has been going for a year, so we have a ton of episodes for you to dive into. At this point, the $5 a month, like, the $5 a month genuinely has become an incredible deal. I'm just going to say it, with all modesty aside, an incredible deal for how much you're getting. Then our second episode every month is something we call an excursion, which is we don't really talk about a movie so much as we dive into a topic of fascinating. for us around awards and our own sort of movie obsessions in terms of things like Hollywood Reporter Roundtables. We'll talk about those. We'll pick a year and we'll dive into the Hollywood Reporter Roundtable from that year. We'll pick a year and we'll talk about the indie spirits from that year or the MTV Movie Awards, speaking of Jim Carrey. We'll talk about

entertainment weekly fall movie previews of the past. We will take a break and talk about the current year's Oscar race and how it's shaping up. We will definitely be doing that a couple more times as this particular Oscar race. As we are recording this, we have hit the weekend of the middle weekend of Venice and the only weekend of Telluride. And when I tell you that this award season, but this award season went from zero to 60 immediately, like all of a sudden, I am locked and loaded on so many of these movies. And we have not. even left for TIF yet. So it's going to be a time. It's going to be a good time. Anyway, all of this, two full episodes every month, for just the low, low cost of $5 for a brown sugar oat milk latte, like grande. Just a grande size. That sounds delicious. I'm saying from Starbucks. Instead, you know, sacrifice. Or any local coffee shop. Just one of those a month. And you'll get a delicious, foamy. caffeine-packed two episodes a month

from these two guys. Keep us caffeinated. Keep us caffeinated. Keep us full of Starbucks with your $5 a month donation. We should also say the coming month ahead of the Patreon is going to be an all-Sephanie banger.

That is true. If you have ever found yourself of the Italian X persuasion in any way, you really should check out If you have patron, Joanne Trotoria. That's exactly. If you have ever been to Joanne Trotoria, if you had ever said,

it's time to take out the trash in the way that she says it in House of Gucci. You're going to love what we are bringing to you. We are going to be talking about the film House of Gucci and the roundtable from a Hollywood reporter in for the year 2018. Yes, that is the year

where Glenn Close and And Stephanie faced off across that roundtable wearing bright, blazoned red garments. And it was a whole something else. Catherine Hahn fell in love with Rachel Weiss. As we all did and should. Anyway, yeah, so you can go to patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz and get all of that goodness. Today we are here discussing the motion picture, man on the moon, directed by Milo Schformen, written by Scott Alexander and Larry Kerosuski, starring Jim Carrey, Danny DeVito, Courtney Love, Paul

Giamatti, a bunch of various cameo performances, including folks like Carol Cain, Mary Lynn Raskob, Caroline Ray. I did the full Leonardo DiCaprio once upon a time in Hollywood to the appearance of Caroline Ray. Yeah, well, yeah. And Bob Zamuda himself, the film opened wide on December 22nd, 1999. Joseph, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description of Man on the Moon? Sure. Then your 60-second plot description for Man on the Moon starts now. Moth the Hoopal and the Game of Life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy Kaufman in the wrestling match. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Monopoly 21 checkers and chess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mr. Fred Blassie in a breakfast mess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's play Twister. Let's play Risk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See you in Heaven if you make the list. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, Andy, Andy, did you hear about this one? Tell me, are you locked on Elvis? Hey, baby, are we lose in touch? If you believe they put a on the moon, man on the moon, if you believe there's nothing up his sleeve, then nothing is cool.

And if you liked what I did with the first part of this plot description, then you may be in for something with the rest of Man on the Moon. A story about the life of comedian Andy Kaufman, who played characters like a foreign man and a man who lip synced the Mighty Mouse theme, and a person who provoked women in wrestling rings, and engaged in elaborate k-fabe with Jerry the King Lawler, and ultimately contracted lung cancer and died or did he, yes he did, at the age of 35 and also starred on taxi and he was a, he was unknowable ultimately. So, uh, who better to, to sum him up than Michael Stipe in a song, which succeeded and Scott Alexander and Larry Kuzzi in a movie who

did not. Yeah. 13 seconds over. I didn't know what to do with this. What the fuck? Like, Because it's that boring of a biopic. It's just like, look up the Wikipedia of Andy Kaufman. It did really make me want to go listen to Automatic for the People, like front to back again. You know what? Automatic for the People. Great album. Great album.

And also, here's what I will also say. Like, I was being glib, but also I would say, and this is not, I don't want to shit on Scholarly Alexander and Larry Kyruski, who, as I mentioned, had. Legends. Legends. And like, Ed Wood's a great movie. and ultimately people versus OJ Simpson a great television show and I think they ultimately had an impossible task sorry I have to turn off my phone buzzer which I thought I did somehow I go into airplane mode and yet it still buzzes when I get I don't understand it just put it on something comfy put it on a I did I thought it's still like whatever anyway I do think that Scott Alexander leave the sound drop in people listeners will have it real asserted for them that you are very busy. Yeah, or they're going to think like their

own phone is buzzing and it's going to drive them crazy, which often happens to me when I'm watching a television show or something is buzzing. Anyway, I love that we're jumping into Alexander and Karazuski. We've done Alexander and Karasuski movies before. We should do Dolomite because Dolomite's so fun. Before we do that, though, I just want to say, which was the point that I was trying to make before we got into Alexander and Karzuski, which is as much as I think they had really good intentions going into this movie. I think somebody like Michael Stipe ultimately has a more meaningful and soulful and genuine take on Andy Kaufman because he's free to be this elliptical about it. And if you look at the lyrics to Man on the Moon, they are very, they're pretty much about essentially two things, which is one of which is childhood sort of totems, like, you know,

monopoly and checkers and all these sort of like childlike games and also conspiracy theories such as like Elvis is still alive and we faked the moon landing and all this stuff and it all sort of like converges

on Andy Kaufman the persona who is both played with the idea of childlike wonder while also being very much definitively dedicated to the idea that you never knew what was real and what was fake with him. And I think, you know, songwriting is a

different task than screenwriting. And it allows, it allowed Michael Stipe to be incredibly elliptical. But I think ultimately, that's the more satisfying document of Andy Coff. But also very succinctly saying what we've already said this movie doesn't do. It has not only a take on him, but actually comments on something that is true or something. we can learn from the story of Andy Kaufman beyond wasn't he, beyond asserting the things we already know or, you know, showing us things we've already experienced or watched from that person. Exactly. Exactly. Do we think, okay, before we go back to Alexander and Karzowski, since you brought up REM

and Michael Stipe. Yes. Let's talk about the Great Beyond as the original song contender that did not happen. Do we think just the existence of Man on the Moon before this movie and then they write the original song for this movie? Does that, is that one of the reasons why it was easy to pass over the Great Beyond, which is also a great song of itself? I agree with you that it's a great song in and of itself, but I think the movie answers that question for you by putting Man on the Moon before it in the closing credits. And the original score for the movie is a riff on the melody of. of Man on the Moon. This movie, like, here's the thing. It is no, it's no sin to be not as good as Man on the Moon, the R.E.M. song, which is one of the greatest, the best songs of the 90s, right?

I think there's, I could probably name five better REM songs, but I hear your point. I just feel like, I don't disagree with you, but when I'm talking about, like, when I say greatest songs of the 90s, I mostly mean in a sort of mainstream community way. I hate being the person who's like, I get, I get it. These are the best songs in the 90s, and they're, like, 20 songs that, like, have never played on a radio ever. Do you know what I mean? What's your REM go-to, Joe? I mean, not to be, like, a dumb, sad bitch, but it's night swimming. Oh, that's a good answer. Mine is Strange Currency's.

Oh, what a good song. Strange currencies, man. That's the REM. This is why I'm so baffled that you never got into the bear because they used strange currencies in the trailer for the second season. Strange currencies is used in a lot of things. Maybe never better. than a movie that I'm half in, half out on, but under the Silver Lake uses it so well.

Yeah. Oh, what a good song. What a good song. You still haven't seen that movie, right? No, I did. I still don't. Did you like it? I don't know. I have no idea. Great, great. Because I watched that and I was like, Joe Reed's going to love this movie. I wanted to, and I thought I would, and I was very nonplussed by the whole thing. As most people were. Yeah. But yeah, I think ultimately the movie understands the fact that, like, Man on the Moon is a superior song, and there's no way of getting around that. And we can't just deny, it's the one, you know, it would have been the most Andy thing ever, actually, to deny the audience the pleasure of hearing the song, Man on the Moon at the end of the movie, Man on the Moon, but the filmmakers didn't want to push it too much, I guess.

Right, right. But yeah, Great Beyond's a good song. It's just, it's just not one of their best. Courtney was right to shade the HFPA in the exact cabbage story she was presenting. And it goes, I mean, I've talked a lot about how the 99 Oscars, we've all talked a lot about how the 99 Oscars fall short of the general level of quality of 1999 as a film year, but especially the best original song category that year, which we talked about it when we did the 100 years 100 snubs and I talked about garbages, the world is not enough, which was a song that should have been nominated that year. But speaking of Madonna, beautiful stranger from Austin Power as a spy who shagged me, also probably should have been nominated that year over certain things like, fucking you'll be in my heart from Tarzan. And wait, so Amy Mann save me. Yes, worthy.

Yes, of course. South Park, Blame Canada. Wouldn't make my top five, but like I get why it makes the category more fun, so I'm glad that it's there. When she loved me, Sarah McLaughlin song from Toy Story 2, one. million percent should be in there. Then it was Tarzan and then it was genuinely can't remember what the fifth one was. Anna and the King was nominated at the Gloves. Yeah. Anna and the King for a babyface song. Is that true for a baby face song? Wait, I've got a... Well, he's at least one of the songwriters. 1999 Academy Awards for the best in film for 1999. Song, song, song, song, song, song, song, song.

The Grammys maybe got it the most right, because the Grammys did nominate this, but because it's in a Grammy calendar, not an Oscar calendar, you have Charlie's Angels from 2000 with Independent Women Part 1. Oh, I love that. Obviously also should have been an Oscar nominee. I love that. No, it was, of course, Diane Warren's

Music of My Heart from the film Music of the Heart. Isn't that 98? No, sir. That was Merrill's 99 nomination. What year was Pearl Harbor? 2001. Because we've argued that that would have been the time to be like just give it to Diane. I have.

Yeah. I have. Yes. Anyway, oh, songs. Remember songs and movies. Remember that. Okay. Alexander and Kerasuski. They, of course, break onto the scene as most Oscar, future Oscar nominated screenwriters would by making Problem Child and Problem Child, too. So, uh, uh, uh, unheralded masterpieces. I tell you, I watched both of those movies more than once as a kid. Like, those, were kind of video factory staples in the... Could not tell you a single thing that happens in them at this point. Although those movies always left a bad taste in my mouth because they were... God, maybe I was just a little prissy little fuck, but like they were a little fucking... You don't say. They were a little nasty. Shut up.

Okay, first of all, shut up. Second of all, you're right. Third of all, they were a little nasty. They were a little bit nasty for my taste, those problem child movies. He really was a problem. And yet you love Home Alone. which, like, I'm not the first person to say is about a sadistic violent child.

It's slapstick violence, my man. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Problem child, he's like, I don't know. I can't remember exactly the things, but, like, I remember it being just a little, a little gross, a little nasty. This is how I was as a child viewer, because have we talked about before

how I was kind of late to home alone because the opening credit reel scared me? That's funny. I was a scaredy cat kid, so I don't have much like childhood, childhood memories of home alone. Speaking, though, of Man on the Moon, one of the stars of Problem Child in the role as an escaped convict who goes by the moniker the bow tie killer, Michael Richards was in that movie. Now, Michael Richards, of course, played by Norm MacDonald in this movie, had the famous sort of blow up with Andy Kaufman on the set of Fridays, the sketch comedy show. As with everything that is depicted in this movie, I automatically, my first reaction was, wow, what a moment. And my second reaction was, was that fake?

Like, what, if anything, that ever happened in Andy Kaufman's entire career? Obviously, we find out that, like, the myriad things with Jerry Lawler, including the confrontation on the David Letterman show, were faked. There was a whole thing in the Jim and Andy biopic that had made news at the time, which was. was that there was a physical altercation between Jerry Lawler and Jim Carrey on the set of Man on the Moon, which I also have to imagine was fake. You know what I mean? I think ultimately when you combine Andy Kaufman and the world of pro wrestling together, like, you will never be able to convince me that anything that is done in that realm is real. So the thing about Alexander and Karazuski is like I love some of their movies, but they're kind of the biopic guys. And there's a certain level that I think now, all respect to them, they are legends,

but there is a format that they have to their screenplays. And sometimes it does feel a little plug and chug, even, you know, to use like middle school math terms of just like, this is the structure of the screenplays we write and now we're going to just plug in the right pieces where they go. Because, like, at the end of the day, you look at the structure of something like Dolomite is my name. And it's the same exact structure as Ed Wood. And maybe there's greatness there, too. But sometimes when you get a movie like Man on the Moon, it's so reliant on that structure that nothing interesting happens. I'll say this.

It's not their fault that the real life story of the problem child matched on, matched so. exactly well to establish that's so well to the story of the problem child too no obviously they're major biopics it's edwood in 94 the people versus larry flint in 96 man on the moon in 99 um

agent cody banks in 2003 just kidding um big eyes in 2014 and dolomite is my name in 2019 well agent cody banks is your biopic unauthorized but that was my childhood that's why

Joe's still receiving resistance for that. So I think the best of those movies, and I sometimes feel bad when I say that somebody's best movie was their first big movie because it feels like I'm saying like their career stagnated after, but like Ed Wood is the best of those movies. It just is. And I think that screenplay is the best of them. And you're not wrong in the formulaicness of it. This is my thing with music biopics that like ultimately there is a ceiling on how good even the best of them can be because they all really lock themselves into such a structure. Now, part of that is that the dramatic arc of a screenplay, it's the behind the music thing, right?

We're like, the dramatic arc of a musician's life, unfortunately, often does follow the well-established patterns of a screenplay, which is like humble beginnings, big success, than like, sophomore slump than the drugs and or money and or relationship issues like drive them to like the basement and then hopefully either they unfortunately die

or they are able to rebound in a way that is maybe not as hitting the heights that they used to but it is now given them a place to be emotionally okay with where they are right and that's sort of that arc and a lot of these stories

for music biopics get sort of forced into that same box. And I think you'll see that similarly with movies about creative types like directors and magazine publishers and visual artists and actors and that kind of a thing, which is one of the things that I sort of thought about as I'm trying to envision like what gets Karazuski and Alexander and Foreman out of the straight jacket of this assignment. in trying to do Andy Kaufman's life in a way that ultimately will resist you finding anything at the center of that, you know, Russian doll of him. You know what I mean? And ultimately, what I thought of was the most satisfying biopics of musicians are the ones that take an off angle on it. Either they fictionalize it, like The Rose. You know what I mean? We're like, The Rose is not a Janus Joplin. biopic. But the Rose probably is more insightful about Janice Joplin than whatever biopic they're still trying to make now. And if that ever gets made, fucking Jackie Jorpe, John Mooder. Would have been fascinated to see what the Sean Durkin one would have been, though, because we know the type of movie Sean Durkin makes. But even still, I still worry that like Sean Durkin would be making a movie in handcuffs.

You know what I mean? Like ultimately, there's only so much you can do. I think similarly, I think Velvet Goldmine is an incredible biopic of David Bowie with being a biopic of David Bowie, but it is enough about a David Bowie type and then either fictionalizes it or the thing that Velvet Goldmine does the thing that we talked about a few minutes ago, which is it makes the movie as much about the people whose lives were affected by listening to David Bowie's music as it was. It's not just about the artistry. It's about the time that it, the context that they exist. I'm just banging those coconuts.

And those who fell out of the coconut tree with them. Dang those coconuts together. Nope. You're not wrong though. And it also. But yes, Velvet Gold Mine is, you know, it takes an artist who, you know, at least a moment in that artist's career that is a flash in a pan. And it's not just about that artist, but like the other artists in their orbits,

but also the impact that they have on their fans. This is why, you know what I thought was a pretty decent musical biopic that wasn't a biopic, was blinded by the light, because it was a movie about a Springsteen fan more so. It's a very sweet movie. You know what I mean? I was kind of mixed on that movie, but it did make me realize, no, I love Springsteen. As it should. Well, I didn't grow up in a Springsteen house. And I feel like so many people of our generation, like, you kind of had to grow up in a Springsteen house to like.

I grew up at a Springsteen house and. had to discover musical theater later. You, I imagine, grew up in a more musical theater attuned house that had to discover Not really. I mean, my parents' musical taste. I mean, I got musical theater from my older sister. But you got it. Like, somehow.

Like, yeah, yeah. But it wasn't, we were not a musical theater house. Sure. It was like me and my sister in the musical theater bubble. Yeah. And like my dad eventually, because my dad was supportive and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But, like, my dad's musical taste is kind of like, like, my dad had big audio dynamite CDs and

like Beastie Boys CDs. Oh, okay. My mom is like all across the map, except for like weird stuff. Your dad must be like significantly younger than my dad, which makes sense. You know, my parents had children very young. And my parents had children relatively old for their generation. Like I was born when my dad was like 30, which was unheard of back then. Which nowadays, 30 even starts to feel young.

It's just like, God, you're having kids at 30? Like live a little. How can you afford this? This is what J.D. Vance is talking about. Anyway, all right. So Alexander and Kerasuski, they get, first of all, the other thing I want to talk about with them before we move off of them is the sheer number of as yet unrealized biopics that they have been attached to over the years. They want to make a Marx Brothers movie. They've been attached to in the past a Patty Hurst movie that James Mangold wanted to do. They wanted to do a Grateful Dead movie, which I genuinely think, I mean, talk about a movie that could be done. by making it as much about the fans as it is about the artist as a Grateful Dead movie. Scorsese had been attached to that. A movie about Robert Ripley from Ripley's Believe It or Not, which would have been a Tim Burton movie that was in the worst. Are they on the Bee Gees movie that's apparently happening or is that John Logan?

Would not surprise me if it was them. I think John Logan is on the Beatles movies, but that's not surprising because that is Mendez. Right. That one's going to happen. the Beatles movie All of these other ones Whether we wanted you or not Yeah, I know

It's one of those things Where it's just so It's so hard to envision A version of a Beatles movie That's going to satisfy people Well, four movies And Is it one per beetle?

Yes, it's one per beetle He wants them all to be released On the same day It's the glory of the Beatles Through the perspective Of each single one of them And I'm like See how I'm right

Like I love Beatles' music But sometimes Beatles' music but sometimes Beatles fans I am like I know, I agree with you. Here I am in the heteronormitivity swear to. Kling, clink, clink. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. The Beatles, nothing is more straight than the Beatles.

They're the best. Listen, you have to, before you say anything about that, you have to agree that the Beatles are the best, or else you will be summarily dismissed. I'm going to be the person coming out and saying Bowie's the best, sorry. I mean, we're queer. We're here, we're queer, we're saying Bowie's the best.

So, Karzisiewski and Alexander, do the screenplay. It's all like, it's, obviously they had already done people versus Larry Flint. So like the making of this movie is all sort of in conjunction with Alexander Karazuski, Milosh Foreman, Danny DeVito are all sort of in the same soup trying to get this made. DeVito, of course, is not only an actor, not only had been a co-star of Kaufman's on Taxi, but is also, um... And a previous Foreman co-star. That's true with One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. And also just like a mega producer in Hollywood by this point. Like in the 90s. Director of masterpieces like Matilda and Death to Smoochie. Well, and also a producer through Jersey films of Aaron Brockovich when she thanked Danny DeVito. Jersey films Danny DeVito.

It should be illegal for us to say his name on this podcast without impersonating Julia Rauer. I'm saying. I'm saying. So the DeVito thing is interesting. And the whole thing of how this movie incorporates real-life people who had, who shared sort of cultural moments with Kaufman is interesting. It made me thankful that the movie was made in 1999 and not 2024 because the deep fake AI of it all would have been so, like they would have absolutely de-aged all of these people. And I would have hated it so much. The way that Foreman is just like, just come as you are, man. Like, what do I care?

Like, Jerry Lawler is very clearly 1999, Jerry Lawler, and this, David Letterman is very clearly 1999, David. David Letterman refused to even put on a toupee of any kind for this movie. And what I thought was most fascinating was all of the stars of Taxi, just sort of looking as they did in 1999, like, no attempt, even makeup-wise, to, like, cover the crevasses in Christopher Lloyd's face. Except, obviously, they don't have DeVito in there. Right.

Davido is like sort of and also Tony Danza was on Broadway at the time so he was not available to to film that but they had Mary Lou Hennar and Judd Hirsch and Christopher Lloyd and Jeff Conaway and Carol Kane's the only one that speaks though and you can kind of sense an arm's reachness of that cameo especially for what so many of the stars to my understanding have come out and said about this movie since well here's the thing of watching this especially is and here's where I sort of of maybe come down as, again, maybe a little bit of a prig in this way. But like, watching this movie, all I could think of at multiple instances was, I feel so bad for the people who had to work with Andy Kaufman in, like, imagine like you're working on taxi. This show is your big TV success. This is a thing you have been working hard towards your entire career. This show is a success. And part of that success sort of hinges on this, I would argue, narcissistic and volatile personality that you have in your midst, right, who is at the very least, even if he was not, as this movie argues, disruptive on set, even if he was not, you know,

pulling the shit. I think most people have acknowledged the fact that he had outrageous contractual demands. And most people have acknowledged the fact that, like, at the very least, his, I just, as this movie depicts it, I look at this movie and I'm like, I feel so bad for Judd Hirsch. I feel so bad for Jeff Conway. Do you know what I mean? That they had like their job. This is their job. They don't have to like, they didn't sign up to be part of this like Andy Kaufman, whatever like performance art experiment. And now all of a sudden, this thing that they have to clock in and do is at the mercy of, this fucking narcissist. But also he's not like a monster narcissist. Like you're talking about some people who all had to work with Chevy Chase. Well, I wouldn't have been happy about that either. There's not really reports of that type of behavior with Andy Kaufman.

He's just kind of an uncompromising artist in a way. And if they're going to hire him to do it, then it kind of, you know, everybody else has to be along for the ride. But it's not like he's treating people poorly. I think there is a myopia that exists. with a character like that, with a personality like that, that ultimately you're being selfish. You are not taking into account the fact that you are not the only person who exists in the world, and I just feel like in general, I feel the same way, you know, in multiple instances

in this. And I feel that way, sort of maybe to a lesser degree in the whole contempt for the audience thing, the way that, like, you genuinely, you do, I love. I love many comedians. I love people who work in comedy. Not all of them, but, you know, I love certain people who work in comedy. There is a line with a lot of people who work in comedy where they just loathe the too easily appreciated joke or premise or punch. line or whatever, you know what I mean? And it becomes almost a pathology where it's just like, can you not be so obsessed with making the most sort of alienating and esoteric, you know, version of comedy because you don't want to hate yourself for the audience laughing too easily at a thing. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like there's so much of that pathology

in this depiction of Andy Kaufman, who, by all accounts in this movie, sees the approval of the audience as a failure on his part. That ultimately, if he is not making it so difficult to meet him on his level that that's the only way he will accept your approval of him, it stresses me the fuck out.

in a way that I don't like. I understand what you're saying. I maybe am of the mindset of, you know, you're not being, so long as no one's getting hurt, there is room for the uncompromising artist, you know, and it may not be the most fun, may not be the most easy. I don't think these people should go to jail. I'm just saying, like, no, you're just saying it's got to be fucking, you know. to live with you know

to get these things done everybody should be accommodating to everything but then again it's also the uncompromising artist who doesn't want to be on a sitcom then don't be on a sitcom but you know and if you are going to be on a sitcom because you need to make money to live then like fucking suck it up Buttercup and like do it you know what I mean and like

or just don't do it right let's talk about the careiness of it we haven't really we've talked about our perceptions of carry as a performer and our feelings about the performance. But as far as an Oscar buzz type of person, you know, the awards prestige of here comes Jim Carrey, who in the 90s very quickly became like the top name and comedy and stayed there, even with, you know, bombs and, you know, loathed movies like The Cable Guy, people have come around on the Cable Guy and the Cable Guy wasn't.

I'd love to rewatch the Cable Guy and see what I think of it. of it today. You know I'm kind of like the cable guy. If I rewatched that today, I'm going to be like, great movie. I mean, ultimately it's a Ben Stiller movie, though, and I don't think you're like in the bag for all of Ben Stiller stuff. So maybe not. No, but like the misanthropy of that movie I'm right in the pocket floor. But then again, I also love like Dumb and Dumber. If I sat and watched The Mask today, I would probably have a great time. That's another one I haven't seen forever. Dumb and Dumber, one million percent holds up. I never really, Okay, so let's start with, obviously, he has...

I never, ever want to watch an Ace Ventura movie ever again. Obviously, Jim Carrey has this whole career through the 90s where he's in things that people have seen, from once bitten to Peggy Sue got married, the Earth Girls are easy, all this sort of stuff. But obviously, it's the in living, the double sort of dip of in living color and Ace Ventura Pet Detective that launches him. I will say, and I'm not trying to be too cool for anything, but like, I was 13 years old when Ace Ventura came out. I was absolutely... Oh, yeah, we all loved Ace Ventura. We weren't focused on how evil that movie.

I'm trying to say, though, that, like, I wasn't. I was 13 years old and should have been exactly in the Target demo for Ace Ventura, and I never liked that movie. I watched it. I certainly, like, you know, I didn't, like, protested or anything like that. I certainly wasn't woke enough to know that it was, like, horribly, like, transphobic or whatever at the time. Although it's pretty easy. It's pretty easy to look back on it and see how, like,

Like, awful it is. I think 90% of the hatred that people have for the crying game is because of what Ace Ventura did with that whole scene. Is Ace Ventura not second? Like, didn't Crying Game become before Ace Ventura? Yes. But it was only like two years after. Oh, you mean like later perceptions. Yes, yes.

So like the Ace Ventura movies were never, they were never in my bag. But dumb and dumber, I fucking love that movie. I thought that was great. I also loved The Mask, but like I've never seen it again. Dumb and Dumber, I've seen a bunch of times. I think it's great. If there were an apparatus for rewarding mainstream comedy actors for mainstream comedy in a way that felt that it wasn't like the American Comedy Awards, that in a way that felt as prestigious or close to it as the Oscars, would Jim Carrey have embarked upon as many dramatic movies as he did in his career? Well, you know, he's not doing He's not doing the type of comedy Jim Carrey's a case that, you know, people try to hinge all arguments of, well, they never reward comedy, blah, blah, blah.

But it's, that's not as true as people think that it is. But there is a reality of what types of comedy gets rewarded. And is it smarter? Is it more, you know, respectable? You know, we're talking about movies where, Jim Carrey is doing, not just slapstick, but he's talking out of his butt. He's got frozen boogers on his face, you know, and like, very funny. He's a very physical performer, and, like, those performances are, you know, what they are.

One of my favorite things about... You're never going to get the industry to recognize greatness as, you know, shit humor, like poop jokes. Like, the thing about dumb and dumber is... Well, bridesmates, but never mind. There you go. The thing about dumb and dumber is the stuff that like made it on to the trailers is obviously all the really is that, you know, the shitting on the toilet, the tongue stuck. I know it wasn't his tongue stuck to the, the ski lift post, but like that the, um, oh, I can't remember like what would have been the like the big like Jim Carrey like dumb parts in the in the trailers. But like all the, but like there's dumb comedy that is done so. intelligently in that movie. I always think of this throwaway line in the movie where he's trying to say that he has a rapier wit and he says, I have a rapist's wit.

And I'm just like, like, that's so dumb, but it's so funny. But the joke is a word humor, not, you know. Well, also, or like, the thing where he's just like, I've had it with this dump. We got no food. We got no jobs. Our pits heads are falling off. And, like, just, there's so many different types of funny shit in Dumb and Dumbent. It's not just Jeff Daniels, a pot, atop a toilet, shitting his life out.

Although that also. That is so funny. He plays it so funny. The way he, that little, like, last little, like, toot comes out of him and he sort of, like, giggles. It's just very funny. Jeff Daniels underrated in Dumbull. and dumber for as much as, you know, Carrie is obviously the star. Anyway.

But, you know, the comparison is not, you know, some of the comedies that have been rewarded. The comparison would be, like, if Jerry Lewis had gotten acting nominations, you know, for his movies. And, like, they just would never, they don't respect that taste. And, like, I don't think it's worse that, you know, the Academy is bad because they don't recognize poop jokes. Like, right. Here's what I will also say, remember when we've talked about Julia Roberts and we talked about the sort of the way that the media cycles of the 90s were so microscopic that careers sort of took on this sense of a roller coaster, even though it was all in the span of like a few years. The fact that Jim Carrey premieres in 94 with like three genuinely like blockbuster movies in Ace Ventura Pet Detective. the mask dumb and dumber.

It's like, that's what everybody remembers. Then Ace Ventura 2 was the very next year. But also, the very next year was Batman Forever, which he's not not doing the Jim Carrey thing, but it's in an action, you know, blockbuster. And then 96, he's... Hissed his co-stars off because he got paid the most for the movie. Tommy Lee Jones would not sanction this buffoonery. And then 96, he's still doing the Jim Carrey thing, but in a much more...

dark and audience unfriendly way in the cable guy, or not even in an audience unfriendly way, but in like an audience unfriendly milieu in the cable guy. Cabla gula.

My favorite part of the cable guy is actually not Jim Carrey and it's not Matthew Broderick. It is somewhat predictably, Janine Garofalo at the medieval times being like, welcome to the old medieval times and like doing like the total deadpan.

Welcome to Medieval Times. I'll be your serving lunch, Melinda. Might I fetch you something from the barkeep? Dost dost have thou a mug of ale for me and me, mate? He has been pitched in battle for a fortnight, and has a king's thirst for the frosty brew. Thus thou might have for thus. I'll be right back, my lord. We do not have that at medieval times because they did not have that in medieval times. It's so sad. It's such an underrated thing. Anyway, So that all of this is to say that, like, people so freaked out that the cable guy was not as fun as dumb and dumber that literally when he comes back in 1997, three years after he broke on the scene, people were like, Jim Carrey's back, thank goodness, he's come from the wilderness, we have the old Jim Carrey back. He's, you know, he's talking out of his ass at the Golden Globes.

In a way, liar, liar is tiptoeing towards some of that respectability, though, because, like, it's a, it's purely a comedy, but it does have some real, like, human emotional element to it. You know, it's basically a divorce movie, um, and it's like, he has a kid that's... We should get Clay Keller to do divorce movies for screen drafts, and, like, movies that are secretly divorced movies, like Mrs. Doubtfire is, is more than a kid. the better divorce movie. But then when the Truman show comes on, which he's legitimately incredible in the Truman show, there's all of that expectation, but you can tell nobody,

it's a volatile thing of do they really respect him enough or do they revere this enough or has he put enough people off already that this is too steep of a hill to climb and eventually he is not nominated to the point that I think it impacted the movie's chance because it misses that best picture nomination. It gets the lone director nod for Peter Weir, and it gets the supporting actor nod for Ed Harris, but Ed Harris doesn't win, even though it seemed for a minute like he was sort of

the anointed one to win. This was coming on the heels of his Apollo 13 nomination, which a lot of people thought for a second that he was going to win that. The Truman Show stuff is frustrating to me because it's one of those pure instances, to me at least. And again, trying to glean intentionality off of the voting decisions of a large group of people is probably an act of hubris that I have engaged in far too often in my life. But it very much seemed to me an act of snobbery on the behalf of the academy to be like, almost to be like, we know you were great in this. we liked this movie, we're going to give it this and this nominations. We're going to make you, like, prove it to us that you can, that you can maintain this level of seriousness of craft again.

And to me, Jim Carrey as Truman Burbank, if not the performance of the year that year, is one of the, like, two or three signature performances of that year. It's like Jim Carrey as Truman, Cape Blanchett as Elizabeth, and like, I don't know, like, one other thing. In 1998, I would have to look at a list of movies to say that to speak definitively. Though Carrie is great in that. And I think one of the things that's so great about him there that I don't know if he would ever be able to recreate is how entirely unmannered that performance is, even when Truman is performing. because I do think of Carrie as a very mannered actor and having watched this most recently is not helping that distinction in my mind.

Yeah. I don't love his performance in Man on the Moon. It's not good. It's really not good. It calls attention to itself. But I do think you're right in saying that there is snobbery to the degree of we're not going to nominate the Jim Carrey,

but we're not even going to recognize the Jim Gary movie, because you watch the Truman Show now, and the bona fides are there that it's like, oh, this should have like a dozen Oscar nominations. This should be like a nomination leader. I think that this is straight up the middle that satisfies people on both sides of highbrow and low. I do think, though, that like the 98 narratives were going so strongly towards this ultimate reality of three World War II movies to Elizabethan movies. Do you know what I mean? That, like, the Truman Show very much...

DreamWorks versus Miramax. Yeah, Truman Show existed outside of so many of those dichotomies that, like, I think it makes sense as a lone director movie, maybe even more so at its best picture movie, even though I think it is absolutely one of the five best pictures of 1998. You do wonder what happens if that's like a Tom Hanks movie instead of a Jim Carrey movie. Yeah. Boy, flip those roles.

Tom Hanks and the Truman Show and Jim Carrey and Saving Private Rite. Saving Private Ryan. It's interesting, though, you look at his career from beyond that, and it's like, he does keep doing these serious roles, right? He's in The Majestic, which we've done an episode on, and I don't think either one of us like him. Pretty bad in that movie. But he's an eternal sunshine of the spotless mind, which is a comedy, but is definitely

like more of a Truman show type comedy where, like, there's more going on. I think it's his best performance. I think he's great in that. I don't know. I maybe spoke too harshly in terms of how. good he was after Truman. But I do think he is working for it in a way that

in Eternal Sunshine, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I think he's great in that movie, but like it's, there's nothing about his Truman performance that's sweaty to me, you know? Here's what I find, no, I absolutely agree with you. I think, I think, I think you're absolutely right

about Truman. The thing about Eternal Sunshine is, and I understand why it happened and there are things like perceptions, the way that the best actress category is perceived differently than best actor in terms of like best actress is always seen as a weak category. It's always a weak year for best actress, especially back then, where they're really like, where the academy is allowing itself to sort of like dip into foreign language films or, you know, smaller movies or weirder movies for best

actress. And then best actors just like biopic, biopic, biopic. The fact that Kate Winslet is nominated and Jim Carrey isn't, isn't as galling as. as the fact that Kate Winslet is nominated and Jim Carrey was never in the conversation to be nominated for Eternal Sunshine. And like, I love that. Not realistic. I love that Winslet performance.

That's one of my favorite of hers too. But, like, that is a pair. Like, those two are a pair in that movie. And I think one does not work without the other. And it's... I do think in that movie he's maybe being vulnerable. He... The thing about vulnerability and Jim Carrey's sprint...

screen presence and choices as an actor is when he does go vulnerable, it's always very, look how vulnerable I am being. I am excoriating myself for you. And I think there's less of that in Eternal Sunshine than there is in like The Majestic. The aughts in general for Jim Carrey seems like a very one for me, one for you. And it's more like one for me, one and a half for you, except that the ones for you, for the studio, also seem to be stuff that Jim seems very comfortable and enthusiastic doing. He does me and myself and Irene and the Grinch in 2000, and then makes The Majestic, which I would argue, I don't like me, myself and Irene very much either. But, like, I think there's probably more of value in that movie and even The Grinch than there is in the Majestic in terms of, you know, what to get out of it. Bruce Almighty.

A trifecta of bad movies, but the worst and the one I would least want to watch again is the majestic. The Grinch is the one that makes a ton of money, though, and that, like, guarantees the next few years of his career. Bruce Almighty is, I think, the platonic ideal of what the studios want from a Jim Carrey movie, which is high concept, enough excuses for Bruce to, like, do the Bruce, for Carrie to do the rubber-faced sort of physical comedy thing. with, you know, a little bit of a heart, enough of humanity in that, like, we get to cast somebody like Jennifer Aniston as a love interest, you know, this kind of thing. That's ultimately the bread and butter of what the studios want out of Carrie. And as the years go on, they struggle to regain that sort of middle ground that they want, where he does something like Lemony Snicket, which feels like, you know, it's...

an indulgence. You know what I mean? It does well with it wins an Oscar. I think it makes a little money. I'm sure it was a very expensive movie. And then like the next year it's fun with Dick and Jane, which I think the studios sort of wanted to be a return to Jim Carrey, big studio moneymaker. And I don't think that movie was a financial success. Am I wrong? I think it was financially fine. It was a flop. creatively, I think, I think. But not, like, no one would call it a hit. No.

And then, like, he makes, like, he steps out of the, the comedy thing, and he makes the number 23, which is an embarrassing little film. He's, you know, he does a voice thing and Horton Here's a Who. Yes, man, is, again, them trying to sort of regain the liar, liar thing to diminishing returns. then he does, he stretches himself creatively with I Love You, Philip Morris. Oh my God, he's playing a gay. Not a good movie. And then returns to the, not returns to, but like a Christmas Carol feels like I want to do the Grinch, lemony Snicket thing again.

It's these three modes of, of Kerry, which is meat and potatoes, comedy that we want to be the next liar, liar. High concept comedy where he's caked in makeup or C.G. or whatever mocap and then it's or it's basically you know stuff for kids because that's i think where he is living happily now and then it's the creative chances which can range from the number 23 to i love you philip morris to uh kick ass to you know where he's in you know those kinds of things um he showed remember he was in the bad batch did you ever see the bad batch and the hell no i'm your pores i remember no thank you i didn't really like it very much but like it feels

like, that's a forgotten movie. Like, nobody really saw it. And then the thing that I think people don't realize is, he's just been playing fucking Dr. Robotnik for the last five years. Oh, people realize it. Those movies, people block to those movies. Not of my business, my friend. This is the thing is, I'm trying to price Sonic 3 in the movie fantasy this year.

And I'm like, guys, I don't fucking know. Are people tired? It's going to make money. Are people tired of these movies? No, they're not. People want to see these movies. Okay. Kids show up for that.

This is my thing. So, like, Carrie is comfortably in a mode of making movies for kids. And it's like he makes sense in those movies. But he's stopped doing anything else by this point. He's making anti-vex tweets and he's making Sonic Bad Shock movies. That's it. That's it. He loves to entertain your children.

He just also maybe thinks that it's a net positive. What the fuck was this movie called Dark Crimes? Have you ever heard of this thing? Don't want to know. Don't want to know. directed by Alexandros Avarnas who's a Greek film director

World premiered at the Warsaw Film Festival holds a 0% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes what the fuck Charlotte Gainsborg is in this what in the world is going on with this fucking movie anybody

readers listeners readers I almost like we're fucking Bowen and Matt listeners if you've seen dark crimes Can they tell you, all right, imagine the poster for this movie. Which letter in the title of Dark Crimes is backwards to convince you that everything is weird? The K.

Oh, you're so close. It's the R. It's the R in Dark. The first R in Dark. The tagline says, it takes a dark mind to solve a twisted. I'm sure it does. Clearly, he's like the number 23 was not embarrassing enough. I need to do a 0% Rotten Tomatoes movie.

that premieres at the Warsaw Film Festival, no shade to our Polish listenership. We love you. So. But Carrie being in the, like, voices slash rehashing the Grinch, but I am in a Sonic movie. Yeah. The Grinch is a monstrosity,

but it is at least rewatchable at Christmas time because the type of misanthropic humor that it has, of course. Speaking of... giggle at it. Matt Rogers, it did inspire the hottest who-up in Whoville, which is a Christmas song for the ages.

It's worth it just for that. Carrie has, I think, the most pressure on his career in terms of awards for this movie because of the Truman show snub. Yes. Again, he wins

a globe. Opposite. Robert De Niro analyzed this. Rupert Everett, an ideal husband, Hugh Grant, nodding Hill, and Sean Penn Sweet and Lowdown, who does get an Oscar nomination. Who do you think was second place? I wonder if it was Hugh Grant? Who would you vote for? I have a feeling we would vote for the same person.

I would probably vote for... This is tough, honestly. I think... I would vote for Hugh Grant. I would probably vote for Hugh Grant, but, like, De Niro and analyze this is very funny. And... I don't know. So I could make a case for second place for either Hugh Grant or Robert De Niro or Sean Penn,

because Sean Penn is the only eventual Oscar nominee of his bunch is the other thing. I think Rupert Everett's the only one that I couldn't see winning. But like that definitely feels like a field where Kerry could win even without enthusiasm to take him to an Oscar. Yeah, I think there's not a reality where Jim Carrey wouldn't have won that category against those nominees. And like the movie had only just come out, so any milk-toast feelings about the movie had probably not fully set in to the point that they would with Oscar. Here's my question for you. So if both of our interpretations of the previous years Oscar snub was that they were sort of making him prove himself and pay his dues for a year, then all of a sudden he comes back the very next year. what happened?

Is it because Man on the Moon is too much of a comedy? Is it because they just sort of got tired of the Jim Carrey thing a year into this, you know, because I remember going into that year thinking, well, he's a shoe-in for Man on the Moon now. It's a biopic. They fucking love biopics. He feels overdue from the Truman Show thing. And then... I do think he was maybe closer for this than he was for.

the Truman show is part of it, but I wonder if Word also got around about what a pain in the ass he was on the filming of this movie. Could be. Because like those stories are definitely more openly spoken about now, but it, you know. Who were the drama nominees that year? Who was the... Well, Denzel Washington wins. Right, for the hurricane.

Spacey's nominated for American Beauty. Interesting that they put American Beauty. beauty and drama, which was probably a strategy to get people to take the movie more seriously. 100%. Lo and behold. Richard Farnsworth is nominated for the straight story, I imagine. Oh, please. I'm getting there.

Actor and a motion picture drama. Farnsworth, Spacey, Washington, Matt Damon, talented Mr. Ripley, and Russell Crow for The Insider. Okay, so it's Damon for Talented Mr. Ripley that ends up falling out of there. So, okay, so you've got your five nominees, Denzel, Russell Crow, Farnsworth, Spacey, and Sean Penn. And then you've got Damon for Ripley.

You've got, you've got Carrie for Man on the Moon. Who are your other contenders, maybe, that year? You've got, I mean... Bruce Willis was never really in the conversation. John Cusack for being John Malkovich was never really in the conversation, even though that's your lone director movie that year. You could say Pacino wasn't really in the conversation, but I'm sure Pacino got some votes for The Insider. Probably more so than like Toby McGuire for the Cider House rules did. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Probably more so than Tom Hanks for the Green Mile. You had a lot of movies that year

that had like supporting performances that were nominated along with lead performances that were not even considered. I would believe De Niro was in the top 10. further analyze this, that'd be very interesting. But so trying to figure out, so I think you're probably right that Kerry is sixth or seventh that year. I think, I can imagine Damon being also sixth or sixth or seventh. But, yeah. It's interesting, though.

It's interesting that like your John Cusacks, your Tom Hanks', your Toby McGuire's are just like, not not on not on the not on the not on the board at all i think hugh grant for nodding hill i'd have been interested to see how where he ends up finishing in the voting that year honestly ray finds in the end of the affair we're going to be talking a lot this year i think with conclave about how ray finds has not managed to be nominated since the english patient the end of the affair is one of many movies where there are other nominations there julian more is nominated for best actress that year, but Ray Fines is not in the conversation whatsoever for that movie. It's just, it's a curious, it's a curious kind of situation.

I think you're right about Pacino. I think Pacino was probably easily in your top 10. I think your second five that year is some combination of Matt Damon, Jim Carrey, Hugh Grant, Al Pacino, and maybe it is De Niro in 10. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think I agree. Yeah. Justice for two things I would say You can disagree me on

Disagree with me on placement here But John C. Riley should have been in the conversation for Magnolia I think if there's a lead of that movie It's probably him Oh, I don't think they would have been pushing anybody as a lead in that No, they wouldn't have pushed anybody in lead But it should have been out, you know If he was in supporting, would you have voted for him over Cruz?

Well, Cruz is another one by the way This is what I text you and Katie When I just rewatch Magnolia I'm like Tom Cruise is maybe the like 17th or 18th greatest performance in that movie, and he absolutely still deserves to be nominated in that category. It just makes the most sense that he's nominated in that movie. But also, we should mention that Cruz and Ice White Shud is another lead actor who was probably in the top... Not in conversation. But like, but probably in the top 20. You know what I mean?

Who are your top five Magnolia performances? Oh, man. That's so hard. I mean... I think if we're talking about supporting actors, I hear you on Johnson. Riley. For me, it's Philip Seymour Hoffman and Philip Baker Hall. I'm very Philip Pilled in this movie. Oh, yeah. Philip Baker Hall is great in that movie, too. I mean, you could maybe make an argument for Philip Baker Hall being close to a lead in that movie. I don't think that movie has any leads. I'm just very comfortable in saying that movie does not have any leads. I'm very comfortable in saying the lead is John C. Riley. He's the closest thing to bookending that movie. He's the closest thing to it, but I still don't think that movie has a lead. I think he's

the most present as just a presence in the movie. I mean, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Henry Gibson, if we're just talking about male performances. I am maybe a sucker for something like what Philip Seymour Hoffman is doing in Magnolia because he is very much the oasis of decency in a sea of venality. You know what I mean? There's a lot of, you know, even the, even there are people like William H. Macy's character, who is not a bad person, but who was just so. so mired in darkness and sadness and patheticness that you're just like, oh, I can't. Like, at least Philip Seymour Hoffman just like, I feel good about the world watching Phil Parma in that movie. Philip Seymour Hoffman is on the verge of tears every single moment of the movie.

But he's so good. He's such a good person, you know what I mean? I mean, I don't want... to sound like the, I guess, Academy Stoge here. But I do think we have never really... Stoge from the bail bonds company is here. It just sounds like a lazy answer. And I think maybe that's why we never paid this performance.

It's due, but Jason Robards is like... He's really good. He's dancing with the devil, man. I mean, he is also, he's kind of actively dying as, right? Like, he's, he, yeah, but it, and maybe that's part of the reason why people have not really reconciled with that performance. But at the same time, he is giving a full-blooded performance, you know, and where do you come down on the, I would say, quite divisive Julian Moore performance in Magnolia? Oh, I mean, you kind of need, that movie, this was the other thread that I was on when watching that movie. I was like, this movie is like the tethered of, or it is the like evil twin of Marguerette.

Because like Magnolia is an opera and you need, you need a performance that's, if you're going to have this ornicopia of life and characters and performances, you need someone who's going to go that high. I love her. I love her in that movie. I think she's great. We taught, I think we get so mired in talking about the histrionics that we don't actually. look at the humanity and reality of that character. She is on so many drugs that are interacting with each other. She would be, you know, maybe that, not that operatic, but she would be that erratic.

She's matching Paul Thomas Anderson's tempo in those scenes, or he's matching her, you know what I mean? Like, it's not like she's out of sync with the movie at that point. That is a point where the movie is crescendoing up towards something, and she's doing what, you know, needs to be done in those scenes. scenes. Listen, we've all seen Real Housewives episodes. That's not that different. What made you watch Magnolia this week? I was on the channel, and I've been meaning to watch it for a while.

The channel. It's on the channel. You're not the only person who says that, by the way. I find it funny every single time. I just think it's... Listen, it's literally is a channel. They have a 24-hour channel on the app now. Chris is talking about the Criterion channel, everybody, just so you know.

In case you thought I was talking about the Max channel or the Hulu channel. Listen, there's a lot of fucking channels. The channel. Not anymore, bitch. Well, the criteria. Anyway. What were we talking about before we got on to Magnolia? Oh, we were talking about 1999.

Okay, okay. It's less of a out-of-nowhere detour than I thought. Okay. What else in terms of precursors? Milosch Foreman did pretty well with this movie at Berlin. This is I think is more egregious than Jim Carrey

winning an acting prize for it. This is also the era when movies that were released at the very end of the year for awards would show up at the next Berlin as like part of the awards tour. I always feels a little sad to me.

Always feels a little bit like can I have a little award? Which is why like what Berlin pivoted to to be more like avant-garde cinema makes total sense and is probably net better than, like, do we really need to see two months later? I don't know what's something that's a complete unknown playing at Berlin.

We don't need that. We know. Like, give other movies a chance to have that global platform. But he wins Best Director in a lineup that includes Magnolia, which won the Golden Bear, any given Sunday, the beach, the hurricane, talented Mr. Ripley, Zhang Yomu's the road home and Vim Vendr's Apparently nightmarish and awful I've never seen the million dollar hotel

But it's supposed to be really bad Yeah And among other global cinema movies That probably could have stood to get that award This movie could have been directed by anybody That's one of the disappointments of this You're not getting good Milosh Foreman with this movie Like

You're not even getting hair Miloche Forman It's not a good Milosh foreman It's a bad Milosh foreman My favorite thing about Milosh Foreman is how much he encourages his, or he inspires his collaborators to later do impressions of him when they are talking about him. But people who worked with him loved him. Love breaking into a Milosh Foreman voice when they're talking about, um, have you talked to Danny DeVito? Like that kind of thing. It's just, it's very funny. Um, I want to go through my notes because I do feel like it's probably time we, um, we wrap this up.

Oh, sort of a part and parcel to what we're talking. about. The sing-along funeral at the end, I think, is so telling. It's one of the things that actually, I think, is, does sort of succeed in what it's trying to do in that, like, it, on the surface, it's supposed to be this very, you think it's supposed to be this very sort of heartwarming button on the end of the movie where, like, everyone is going to unite in song and he'll have brought everybody together. And yet, very visibly in that scene, The funeral attendees are, like, mildly into singing along, and it's mostly out of obligation, and it's only Andy in the recording who seems to get any kind of delight and enjoyment out of this. And it's once again sort of like Andy doing something only for him, and that like doesn't ultimately, like, he's not about, he's, the idea of Andy creating these communal moments is sort of,

played within the movie a little bit because like the milk and cookies thing is portrayed as that and the Santa Claus thing. But I think ultimately that's probably as much of a false narrative as anything else. It's like Andy Kaufman was not here to create like moments of connection among his audience, right? Like that's just not what is it. He was there to sort of follow his own comedic muse to whatever, to whatever ends there were. I said the Richard Brody thing. I mentioned Courtney Love. The R.E.M. of it all. I did write down Lorne Michaels giving feet for free.

I don't know what to do with that. Lord Michaels is another one who, like, is in this movie just, like, looking how he looked in 99. Like, no deep-pick technology. Gabriel LeBelle was still several years away, so we couldn't have him show up as Lord Michaels. What if, like, infant Gabriel LeBelle just show up? I actually don't, please do not correct me on that. If Gabriel LeBelle was born after 9-11, I don't want to.

Probably was. What did you think of DeVito in this movie? Very quickly. I was going to say, what did you think of DeVito and Giamati on this movie? Oh, Giamatti was someone I wanted to talk about because Giamani being in this movie recently came up during his holdovers press tour because I don't think, I don't remember him mentioning by name and I don't remember the

exact source though I'm pretty sure it was his Marin interview which if you ever want to watch if you ever want to experience I'll say two heterosexual men falling in absolute love with each other in real time go back to

Giamatti's Marin interview it will make you believe in love in God it will make you believe in the stars so what's he speaking elliptically about Man on the Moon, do you think? You know, there was talk of his acting process, and he was like, yeah, one time I, you know, did this movie where someone was playing a real person and they got really, really into it, and it was just kind of a pain in the ass in a way that we, like, very much knew he was talking about Jim Carrey, but I don't think he actually mentioned. If you watch Jim and Andy, both Giomati and Danny DeVito have moments where they sort of look at the camera and are just like, like, oh boy, like, here we go, you know.

So, yeah, I thought Giamatti is good in this movie. I think, again, the Bob Zimuda of it all. Alexander and Kyruski, they did that interview at Ebert Fest this year, which is on YouTube, if you want to find it. They talked about a lot of their movies, but they mentioned a little bit of the fact that, like, Andy's family felt like the movie focused a little bit too much on the dark stuff and the confrontational stuff and not enough on, you know, the Andy that they knew sort of growing up and understandably for them that they would have wanted that and understandably for the filmmakers that they're like we can't linger on you know teenage Andy we got to get to the part where he's Jim Carrey um but they also mentioned that like Jim's parents um think like Bob Zamuda's the devil and just sort of like do not have a very high opinion of Bob Zamuda's also continue to perpetuate this like notion of well and

profit off of of well and he's gonna come back blah blah blah blah blah blah and it's like well Bob Zamuda is in dire need of attention so there you go what did you think of DeVito I thought DeVito was as an audience surrogate as the sort of like he kind of bears the weight of a lot of this movie yeah yeah he has to bear the weight of this movie needing a plot yeah it's not the mode I want to see DeVito in but when am I unhappy to see Danny DeVito. Danny DeVito. Um, all right. Again, I feel bad for the taxi cast. That's my major

takeaway from Man on the Moon. Those poor people, give Judd Hirsch a hug next time you see him, because he probably needs it. Anyway, Chapel Rowan's going to yell at you about going to hug, John Holmes. Yeah, Chapel Rowan wants no part of me, and that's fine. Movie also got a Critics' Choice nomination for Best Picture. Y'all are crazy. SAG nominated Carrie for lead actor. MTV nominated him for best male performance, but gave it to Keanu Reeves

for The Matrix, great call. That's an interesting. It's a very MTV Movie Award lineup, right? It's Keanu for the Matrix, Adam Sandler for Big Daddy, Bruce Willis for the Sixth Sense, which at least somebody was giving Bruce props for the Sixth Sense, because he's very good at the movie.

And Ryan Filiby and his cute little butt in Cruel Intentions. It really was the nomination for the butt. Yeah. Listen, we were all there. We were all there at that moment in time. We got it. I will end my thoughts on this episode and my thoughts on you like this movie. You're insane by saying the Kaye de Cinema, who we have talked about in the past,

dubbed this the third best movie of the year. ahead of what you ask. For the populists among our listenership, I won't mention every movie. But apparently, the Kaye-e voted, Man on the Moon, a better movie than other placements on the lists, including In the Mood for Love,

Yee, and the Virgin Suicides. I know the one you're really mad about is Mission to Mars, Chris, and I want you to just say it. I want you to just say it out loud. Have I seen Mission Tamar's? I certainly haven't. This is...

Mission Jamar is also, by the way, ranks ahead of in the mood for love. I keep having these movies that I can't remember if I've seen them or not. And those are the movies I need to watch to be like, yep, saw that before. Yeah. The French are not like us. That's all I have to say about that. All right. Should we move along?

Yes. Joe, would you like to explain the IMDB game. I would. Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game. game where we challenge each other with an actor or actress and try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front.

After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining years, release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints and elliptical references to Classy Freddy Blassie and whatnot. How are we doing this today? Do you have any concept of Classy Freddy Blassie in your... and as he is referenced in that song? I have a concept that it is a funny name. Yeah, he was a wrestling manager.

He was... Sure. He was a little bit before my time, but I still remember he would do like commentary on matches and stuff like that. By the way, I will say this movie uses, not to like, I'll indulge in wrestling for like half a second because I know you're not conversant in it. But this movie deploys Jim Ross very well as a wrestling announcer,

and he does a lot of the sort of Jim Rossisms. You always hear about, like, this man from Hollywood is coming here and, like, he's a disgrace. He's a disgrace to wrestling. And it's just, it's wonderful stuff. It's very good. Classic J.R. Okay. Great.

What are we doing? Are you going first? I went first last time, so why don't you go first this time? Okay. So, we decided to do this movie at this particular moment. We didn't mention this until now, because. of Saturday night coming out. Oh, is that why? I forgot about that. You were like, oh, it would be a great time to, you never,

sometimes you just, you make very definitive statements and forget that you even had the thought. But, uh, yeah, Joe's like, oh, great time to do man on the moon. You know what? You know who was right? Mighty Mouse S&L connection. You know who was right? I was right. I was this is a very good. It's a good connection. It's a good connection. God, it's so smart, uh, that we didn't discuss in the substance of the episode. Honestly, I mentioned Gabriel LaBelle. That's all. That's all that needs to me. Sure.

You mentioned how awful it must be to work with Chevy Chase. We covered our bases. It's fine. Yeah, yeah. I hope that Corey Michael Smith Me too. Delivers another definitive performance of a monster. Fuck yeah.

So I went to the cast of Saturday Night and pulled for you as George Carlin, Matthew Reece. The great Matthew Ruth. Our fave Welshman. There is one television show. Anthony Hopkins is probably up there, too. I don't want to slight Anthony. What did you say about television? One television?

There is one television. It's got to be the Americans. It is the Americans. Okay. So three films, four. What if it wasn't the Americans? And I could have said, nope, it's the American cannot. So the thing about Matthew Reese is he's very, very, very much a television actor.

The two movie roles I think of most prominently with him is he's Daniel Ellsberg in the host, and he's the main, kind of the focal point character in It's a Beautiful Day in the neighborhood. Lloyd Vogel, which is a, I think they renamed that journalist. Deeply real name. Deeply real name, Lloyd Vogel. Is that correct as well? Yes.

Yay. All right. So I got three for three. Now is where it gets difficult, because now is where I have maybe forgotten any other movies that he's in. Matthew Reese, I don't think he's in, I don't think he and Matthew Good made a movie of them drinking wine and being silly, but they should. It would be my version of a trip. It would just be, I don't know. All right. Love that you're stalling with references to the trip. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Okay. So, Matthew Reese.

Oh, he was in something recently, I feel like. Um, this is sad. This is a bummer. I have no wrong answers, and I have run out of movies. And I can't give you hints yet. And you can't give me hints yet. This sucks. Okay.

was Matthew Rees in No There's a lot of movies But a lot of these movies You've probably never heard of Oh, isn't he in like bright young things? He might be, but that's incorrect I feel like it's a movie that like

Oh, wasn't he in The Four Feathers? Or am I thinking of the real? He might be, but that is incorrect. Your year is 2015. Fucker. 2015 all right he's not in mad max fury road he's not in spotlight is he on spotlight he's not in spotlight he's not in spotlight he might be in he's not of guesses it's not like spotlight's also 2016 no it's 25 yeah it's 25 but it's no uh we've done this movie

is he in suffragette is he in it's not suffragette um the the the um the the um the the um I love that I say 2015 and we've done it and you immediately jump to suffragette. Well, is he in the fifth of state? Not the fifth of state. I think that's 2013. Snowden. It is not Snowden. This is a massive cast.

Surprisingly massive cast given the marketing materials. It's not Stonewall. Is he in 2015 massive cast? Bobby was way. earlier than that um he is like he plays the how do i want to say he plays the rival of the lead character oh it's it's it's um it's adam jones it's burnt you burnt it's burnt i can't believe that's on his known everybody knows matthew reese from burnt i knew you know what weirdly that was the one i was trying to think of is just like that's that's the other motherfucker you did that

on purpose, and I tip my hand. Sure did. Tip my hand to you. All right. Well, since we talked so much about Scolodeau, Scott Alexander and Larry Karazuski, in this episode. I love that Scott Alexander is the name I keep fumbling over rather than Larry Karazuski. Anyway, I talked about how Ed Wood is my favorite of their screenplays. Obviously, the star of Ed Wood was Johnny Depp, but the Oscar winner out of Ed Wood was Mr. Martin Lendow. Uh, well, Ed Wood.

Yes. Crimes and misdemeanors. Yes. Hannah and her sisters. Nope. Is he even in that one? I don't know. Uh, uh, he is in the majestic.

He is in the majestic, but that is also wrong. So that's two strikes against you. Oh, I didn't mean to guess it, but that's fine because I'll take the years. Okay. Your years are 1988 and 1959. Oh, 509. Yes. This is going to be something obvious that I should have guessed. Um, what are 59 movies? It's not like 12 Angry Men. It's not. It's not like judgment at Nuremberg. No. Am I in the right vein? Am I like... I don't... Not not. Um... It's a very famous filmmaker.

It's not like the Russians are coming. The Russians are coming. No. Um. Who would be a very famous filmmaker whose films would survive in popularity to be on an IMDB known for? David Lean, Kubrick. But I don't think he did a Kubrick. I don't know if he did a Kubrick, but it's not a Kubrick.

Um, Vincent Manelli No, you're, you're not mainstream enough. Gay answer, gay answer. Yeah, gay. Gay. William Weiler. No.

Like, if you asked, like, a man on the street, name a filmmaker from the 19th... Hitchcock. Yes. Oh, he was in a Hitchcock in 50. What would have 59 have been? Ooh. Hitchcock's implausible to plays for years. Did you remember him as being in a Hitchcock movie?

Huh? Do you remember him from being in a Hitchcock movie at all? Like, does he, you know, trigger any memories? I'm not trying to be, like, vague here. I'm just trying to, like, very straightforwardly ask you if you remember him being in any Hitchcock movies you've seen. I'm sure whenever I would have. watch this movie, I was like, oh, Martin Lando, um, the man who knew too much? No. I only say this

because I saw this movie semi-recently, and I remember thinking like, oh, there's Martin Landau. Okay. I'm sure I had the same thing, but it did not stick in my long-term. It's definitely one of, like, Hitchcock's better-known movies. If you had, like, if you said, again, to a person on the street, name five Hitchcock movies, this probably- Is it like North by Northwest? It is, in fact, North by Northwest. See, you know, think of Martin Landau when you think of North by Northwest. He's a villain, though, in North by Northwest, and his face is unmistakable. All right.

The 1980 movie, I'm surprised to... That's not one of my... That's not in my top Hitchcock's, I got to say. But you know what I'm saying about, like, you ask the average person, like, they would think of that. Is the other 80s movie another Woody Allen? No. I'm surprised you haven't gotten this one, though.

I thought this would have been your second guess after Edward. Is this, like, family adjacent? Like, this is four children? sort of. No. He has one of those somewhere. The director of this movie has a movie coming out this year. Has a big movie coming out this year.

Ridley Scott. No. Bigger, bigger. Bigger than Gladiator 2. Okay. Not Barry Jenkins. No. Not Justin Chu.

No, bigger. What's bigger than Gladiator 2 and... Maybe you're not thinking of big in the correct way. Bigger. Megalopolis. So it's Tucker. Tucker, the man in his dream! Am I not wrong that I'm surprised that that wasn't the second one out of year.

I just never would have been a million years thought Tucker would show up on his IMDB. Oscar nominated for it, though. That's true. That's true. That's true. Because no one talks about Tucker, even when we're talking about Francis Corpus. I think more and more, I think people are more and more maybe a little bit talking about Tucker. Maybe it's just because I'm friends with you because you talk about Tucker a lot and I still haven't seen it and I will. Because it's the movie that I was like, I watched this and it was shockingly great. Yeah. Listen, it's not only about Tucker, it's about his dream. The man. It's

also about his dream. It's also about his dream. Listen, if Man on the Moon was Andy the man in his dream. Maybe it would have been a better movie. Well done. Great episode. If you want more of us, you can check out our Tumblr at this had oscarbuzz.tomber.com. Also on Twitter, it had underscore oscar, underscore buzz at Instagram at this had Oscar buzz. And on Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you?

Socials. At Joe Reed. Read spelled R.E.I.D. Vulture at vulture.com. doing the Cinematrix and the movie Fantasy League. And you can listen to me on my brand new podcast, Demi, myself, and I, where I cover the films of Demi Moore. We are rockin and a roll-in. It's on Patreon, only $5 a month. And it is, I will say, well worth the price of admission just to hear Chris File talk about exploitation horror movies and the next movie that I'll be talking about from her career. From her marriage to Emilio Estevez will be, or not marriage, her engagement, I think they were engaged. Her relationship with Emilio Estevez will be covered in a movie whose title I can never remember unless I'm looking at it on, I literally like have it on my shelf somewhere here.

Anyway, it's the movie she did with Emilio Estabez. Regardless, it's called Demi Myself and I. You go to Patreon.com slash DemiPod. That's patreon.com slash DEMI POD. And I am on Twitter and letterboxed at Crispy File. That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork. Dave Gonzalez and Kevin Mavius for their technical guidance.

Taylor Cole for our theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get those podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So if you give us a five-star, thank you very much. That's all for this week. And hopefully, we'll be back. Next week for more buzz. I did not see that coming.

Bye.