This Had Oscar Buzz - 323 – Rust and Bone

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

For New Years week, the auld acquaintance that won’t be forgot on our show is… a grim French drama about broken bodies. In 2012, Jacques Audiard returned to Cannes with Rust and Bone starring Marion Cotillard and Matthias Schoenaerts as reluctant lovers healing through personal tragedies. The film left Cannes with no prizes but with a lot … Continue reading "323 – Rust and Bone"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. I didn't get that. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Maryland Hacks and French. Dick Pooh. Dick Pooh. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that's been on the no-fly list since age 10. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my firework who always lets his colors burst. Chris File. Hello, Chris. Happy New Year. Yeah. I am worse for the wear today.

Yeah. Let's just pretend that I am in a pre-New Year's hangover. There you go. Very good. Very good. Yeah. Everybody play Abba's Happy New Year today. This is our new year.

year's weekend episode we are here to talk about a uh movie about france and orcas and um fist fighting and tragedy the jaco diards rustin bone very french tragedy very french tragedy um this was a movie just to sort of big picture it to start as we try and do um that of course i saw back in the day, because this was a Oscar contender, although it did not get what it wanted, but it came darn close in a couple categories, and we'll surely talk about that. I didn't relish seeing this movie again, not because I didn't like it the first time, but I was just sort of like, oh, right, all that stuff that happens in it. Like, it's just sort of, it's not a movie that you kind of race to revisit,

it, because it's mostly about people sort of finding each other through their shitty circumstances and their anger and their frustration. Not a whole lot going on in it, except for a few traumatic events. Few traumatic events, a lot of bare-knuckle fighting, a lot of sort of, not even despair. I love Matthias Shonard's quite a bit. And he's good in this movie, but a lot of this movie is just him, like, sort of low-key looking around like, well, got to do this now. You know what I mean? Like, got to go to my job at the security company.

Got to go fight this guy now. Got to go, you know, take care of my kid and got to go have sex with Marion Cotillard. Yeah, to make her feel better. Right. then I guess we're going to be fuck buddies, basically. Sure, yeah. Re-watching this movie, I definitely

liked it a lot less than I'd remembered liking it, and I was kind of a little baffled at the end of why I thought I liked this much more than I ultimately do today, and I really think it's

just... Bonavere. Matias Schoenartz. Yeah. was such an exciting actor you know a decade-ish ago and like we've talked about him on our bigger splash episode I still think he's really great in this movie

probably even better than Marion Cotillard yes but that I don't think she's bad performance oversold me on the movie in my first experience and now I'm just kind of like these two actors don't really have anything to do in this movie Kind of don't. That's the thing.

It's just sort of like, for a movie where, for a movie that includes multiple performances to Katie Perry's firework and a woman getting essentially, and not to be glib about it, her legs bitten off by a killer whale, not a ton happens. It feels like not a ton happens in this movie. And then you get to the end. I also remember that specific event happening way later in the movie. Same. It's pretty early. It's quite early in the movie, yes. And then, and I, it's one of these things where once it happened in the movie, I'm like, oh, right, this happened.

But I had forgotten that, and then at the end of the movie, the kid falls through the ice. And I remember the shot of it very well, because it's, you know, his back has turned and all of a sudden, fairly sort of silently, the kid in the background of the shot falls through the ice. ice. And I was like, really, really, Jacques, like, on top of all of this, on top of all of the tragedy and the bleakness and the grimness that has happened in this movie, we're going to have the goddamn kid fall through the ice. And I was like, okay, let's, and all in the service of this metaphor that he, Matthias Schoenardt, punches through the ice and breaks all these bones in his hands so that we can leave the movie with this glimmer of hope because the child survives. Chris, not only does the child survive, but his hands healed stronger than before

because his mixed martial arts career is able to go on. It is this very French metaphor of you break all your bones in your hand and you come back stronger. And that's, as a thesis statement for the movie, it's very whoopey on the view. Okay. Yes. And yet, I, the big fucking dummy here, the incredibly easy cell, the sap among us, then gets to the end where the three of them are together in Poland at his next match or whatever, at the Sheridan. And he wins. And he wins. And they go off and they sort of, they're this little kind of family together. and the Bonnevere song is playing, and I'm like, oh, this is nice. You know what I mean?

I'm just sort of like, and I kind of just like. A movie with multiple Bonnevere nipple drops in it. And I'm not even a huge Bonnevere fan, but like I like, I like, bonovert quite a bit. And even so, when it shows up in a movie, I'm like, come on. Whereas I. Except Place Beyond the Pines. Place Beyond the Pines. It's perfect.

Flawless choice. But after everything that happened in the movie, I'm just sort of there. And I like, I literally, I feel. like one of the underrated things about watching movies on streaming today is whether you like a movie enough to click the button that says keep going through the credits. You know what I mean? And I did because I was like, I'm just going to sit with this song for a second and just sort of like watch the credits. But like that's all Jacques Odiard's really giving you in this movie. Yes, I agree. I agree. It's just vibes. It is not like I hate I'm tired of saying. It's two hours.

of not a ton of shit happening. Right, right. It's just this kind of ultimately wallowing. Yeah. That's not bad, but it is insubstantial. So we're not selling this episode of this had Oscar buzzed fairly well. But we are going to get into some things that are more interesting than how much neither one of us really liked Rustin Bone very much. Certainly because it's Jacques Odiard, we're going to be talking about Amelia Perez in this episode.

We're going to be talking about the 2012. can film festival, which was very interesting, the 2012 Best Actress Rates, which was very interesting. And we'll talk about Marion Cotillard and Mattia Schoenart's careers and whatnot. So don't think like this is just going to be, you know, two hours of us being like, oh my God, Rustin Bone, you're killing me here. Even though that is sort of how I felt a couple How dare you not pronounce it correctly, too? It's obviously Rustin Bourne, Boone, Boones, The bones. Okay, so which one is rust? Of the two of them, which one is rust and which one is bone in their little, you know, buddy cop formation. I mean, Cotillard is such a flinty performer. Okay. That I feel like that makes her rust, right?

Well, she's in the water quite a bit, too, and water makes you rust. Correct. And he, of course, breaks his bones in his hands and fights with his bones, punches with his bones, his bones. his bony hands. Though it's hard to, you know, see a shown arts performance that's very physical and think bone versus meat. Like, he's a, he's a, he's a fleshy. He's a, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's very muscular. But he also has this, he, he evinces this sort of, um, fleshy, you know, sort of there's, there's, there's, not to like get gross, but like, you feel like you can like grab them with both hands. You know what I mean? Like he can really sort of like, which she does in this movie. You do see his, his, his bum in a couple of times in this movie. And you know what? I'm not mad about it. So. A lot of sex in this movie for it to only get an R rating in the States.

It's true. You just wonder, especially because we know independence have a harder time with the ratings board because, you know, they don't pay the ratings boards bills like the studios do. Right. Right. I sometimes feel like European movies get viewed a little bit differently by our ratings board where they're like, eh, it's French. We expected this. You know what I mean? You look at like Almodovar, who's had to fight with the ratings board multiple times. But Almodovar is a big old queerbo. Well, yeah, there's gay shit in those movies. So that's why they slap him down. Yes. But anyway, we'll have plenty to talk about, certainly the Katie Perry of it all, how much of this movie's lack of success at the author.

do we pin on Katie Perry? I posit more than you should. 97%. Yes. I can say it's. Yeah. It's all Katie Perry's fault, everything, including this past election cycle. Okay. On the subject, though, of Firework, which is the song that we get as she is, both when she is performing at Marine Land. And I did, they do say in the write up of it on Wikipedia, that it is Marine Land, which there's a marine land near, up in Canada near me. Not a sea world, but a marine land. It's part of her, it's their sort of group choreography number at the Whale Show. And then we see her practicing to it somewhat emotionally later on.

And the music comes up perhaps diabetically in that scene, perhaps not. But it has this building cascade to where it's like, in her mind, she's performing again. And that it is a beautiful scene. I was going to say, is memorable scene from the movie, but. I feel like we as gay people get to like a handful of Katie Perry songs without implicating ourselves.

Is fireworks from Katie Perry, except for never really over? Oh, that's it. See, this is what I'm saying is I feel like, that's a good song. The top line is always like, ugh, Katie Perry. And then the second line is always like, well, except for, and then you can say one to four songs and and and i think that's my one that's your one that's your only one song i still weirdly kind of dig uh extraterrestrial for whatever reason it's so dumb um and i think if you put me in the right mood i can probably like jam out to firework i think i probably can um also see here's

the thing, is, and I cannot be blamed for this. You know I am a creature of the montage, and you know I am also somebody who really invests in the pageantry of the Olympics. So when Katie Perry did the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Olympic theme for NBC, and they had the video with all the like Simone Biles and all these people sort of like, and the song's called, I believe it's called Rise. I will watch that video every once in a while and just sort of be like, not as often as I watch the Whitney Houston One Moment in Time video, which is a stone cold classic of Olympic montage.

But I do watch the Katie Perry one somewhat. So there we have it. My deep, dark secret, my awful secret, I like Katie Perry's Rise. So there we are. Anyway. Listen, we have to take any opportunity to allow you the space to enjoy. That's such an odd choice. What?

Never really over being your one Katie Perry song. It's a good song. I'm trying to wrap my head around. Is it? It's a good song. Is it? What's the one? It's like one of the maybe two songs where her lyrics aren't completely skull-knockingly stupid.

Well, yeah, they're, well, I mean, I think the lyrics in that one are pretty stupid. What's the one, it's not Bon Appetit, it's where she, the title of the song is a word she pronounces so dementedly. Oh, she has a song called Unconditionally, where she, in the singing of it, pronounces it. And I'm just like, you sound like your brain fell out of your head, lady. Like, nobody pronounces it that way. Katie Perry is malfunctioning. Unconditionally. I was just like, oh my God, I can't handle this.

Anyway. We need to, what I was saying is, though, is any space where you can speak positively on a female pop star, it should be granted because. Oh, me specifically? because it's like Saturn coming around. It only happens like twice in your lifetime or whatever. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what your Saturn return is going to become.

You're going to like all new pop girlies. You're going to suddenly like people that you have unfairly maligned like Sabrina Carpenter. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Because like, and this is partially my fault because I really have cultivated this hatred that I have for the current pop girlies of the moment. I like quite a many of pop girly songs. If you check my Spotify, first of all, I haven't, like, I'm legitimately a fan of Lady Gaga. So, like, I have a bunch of Lady Gaga stuff.

I have a great track, maybe her best single in many a year. Shit ton of Duolipa. I, despite my years-long adversarial relationship with Ariana Grande, I like at least two or three of her songs. Um, so like, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I guess, there's a particular flavor of this current crop of Olivia Rodriguez, Sabrina Carpenter, Billy Eilish, Chapel Rowan, um, there's one more shit, I can't think of it. Anyway, Charlie X, CX, I get. Charlie X, X, also was very good on Saturday Night Live. Um, I get that. Um, um, I get there. the Charlie XX thing, I just feel like, A, the Apple Dance makes everybody look like a dumb little baby. And there's a sense that people liking Charlie XX makes them incredibly, like,

hot and cool and dangerous. And I'm like, at the end of the day, it's still just a pop star. Like, a pop star can only do so much for, like, your cred. Where, you know, the fucking brat summer and all the stuff. I'm like, fucking spare me. I don't know. Spare me. I can't dog you for any Charlie X or Charlie X, X, X, uh, thoughts because I have never listened to that out.

Interesting. That's surprising to me because you're, you are such a pop girly, uh, enthusiast. No, I'm an apologist, I think, reactionarily because of you, but like. Oh, I see. I'm not a chopperone crazy. I do really like Sabrina Carpenter. That album, to me, I've said this to you before, and you silently ignored it. That album to me is very Liz Fair, self-titled, but in a roller rink.

Yeah, I can't, I can't wrap my head around that one. She's very horny and very upfront about it. The idea of, like, the Grammy nominations came out recently, and, like, Sabrina Carpenter got nominated for, like, eight bajillion Grammys. And, like, is there no, there is no separation at the Grammys between, like, music that we listen to for fun and music that we listen to and we say that it's great. Like, the Grammys are just like. Well, the Grammys are also about where is the money and Sabrina Carpenter is pulling them a lot of money. This is why I will never respect the Grammys, because the Grammys have no snob appeal. We talk about the Oscars and having snob appeal.

And, like, this is why I will never get mad, never get overly mad when, like, Beck beats Beyonce at the Oscone or at the Grammys. I'm like, yes, good, that there is, that there is some kind of like, oh, the Grammys are such snobs. I'm like, that's what you want out of these people. You want to be chasing the snobs down. You know what I mean? Like, you want to have something where there's a little bit of like rarefied air there where it's just like, how am I going to fucking get on? I wouldn't call the Grammy snobs. I would call them.

Bro, they're not. That's the thing is they're not snobby enough. We should take the Grammys much less seriously. Well, I don't know if it's possible for me to take the Grammys less seriously than I currently do, but I get what you're saying as a culture, yes. Anyway, these are the type of things we'll be talking about instead of talking about how much Rust and Bone is kind of a bummer. So, Chris, we'll still be talking about why it's a bummer. We'll get into it. We will also, yes.

No, no, we're definitely going to talk about the movie. Before we do, though, Chris, do you want to talk to our listeners about why they should be our patrons? Listeners, we have a Patreon. If you haven't subscribed to it already, we call it This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance, and it's only $5 a month. What are you going to be getting for that $5 a month? Well, currently in the ongoing Oscar season, we're going to be doing news updates as things happen. So you'll get up to the minute, you know, fresh thoughts on various awards, nominations, winners, happenings, goings on, etc. But on the regular schedule, on the first Friday of the month, you're going to get a bonus episode called,

These are movies that fit that this had Oscar buzz rubric, but managed to score some nominations. In December, we talked about far from heaven, but we also got a great backlog of episodes, including conversations around movies like House of Gucci, Madonna's W.E., the Lovely Bones, Charlie Wilson's War, Molly's Game, My Best Friend's Wedding, Nives Out, Vanilla Sky, Films like this. On the third Friday of the month, you're going to get what we call an excursion. These are deep dives into Oscar ephemera, things we love to obsess about on this show, things like EW Fall Movie Previews, Recapping Old Awards shows. In December, we just had a mailbag with all of our great listener questions. Coming up, we will be doing our second annual what we call the superlatives. It is random categories of awards that you will find throughout the season

decided by us and a Best Picture lineup decided by our listeners. So you'll want to check that out coming next month, I believe, in February. Well, this is December. So coming in February in February, yes. A month and a half. Exactly. So go sign up to This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance over at Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz.

Indeed. All right. Well done, Chris. And I'm going to have you stretch your, stretch your limbs out, you know, limber up sort of shadow box for a little bit. Get in my wetsuit. Get in your wetsuit. Practice your movements and get ready to sum up the plot of Rust and Bone in a mere 60 seconds while I lay down the particulars. We're going to be talking about 2012's Rust and Bone, directed by Jacques O'Diard, written by Jacques O'Diard, written by Jacques O'Don. And Thomas Bidegan, Bidegan, Bidegan, God. Yes. These poor people who I massacre their names, just a blanket apology to everybody I've ever talked about in my entire life. Starring Marianne Cotillard and Matthias Schoenartz and various other people, but you know what? You know who you're here to see.

You're here to see Marion Cotillard and Matthias Schoenards. Distributed in the United States by Sony Pictures Classics, it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival on May 17, 2012. then truly had one of the great we're going to play any festival that literally allows us to cross their threshold. They played Telluride, Tiff, Athens, Rio, Edmonton, the Hamptons, London, Mumbai, Savannah, AFI, Stockholm, Brisbane, Santa Fe, Dubai, Palm Springs, Istanbul, Sedona, all before, well, not all before, at some point in there, it opened in the United States in limited release on two screens. On November 23rd, 2012, it expanded somewhat from there. Opening weekend was Thanksgiving of 2012, where the number one movie in America was Twilight Breaking Dawn Part 2. Also in the top five were Skyfall, Lincoln, Rise of the Guardians, Life of Pie. One of those movies is not like the others.

One of those movies did not get nominated for any Oscars, and that was Rise of the Guardians. Um, limited release debuts that week, Hitchcock, which we've just recently talked about on our Patreon, and also the Ken Burns directed Central Park Five movie. That was, uh, fairly, was that not an Oscar nominee that year? I feel like it got snubbed. Snub, right? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Chris, I'm going to grab a stopwatch. I'm going to put 60 seconds on the clock for you. And I'm going to ask you. Hold on one second. Dope. All right. Stopwatch is cleared.

And are you ready to deliver the plot of rust and bone? Sure. All right. And begin. All right. We're following this amateur fighter named Ali. He has a five-year-old son. He shows up in the south of France to his sister's house, basically looking for somewhere to stay.

He gets into various odd jobs, including a bouncer where one night he meets Stephanie, who gets caught in an altercation and then he takes her home and gives her her number because she's drunk and he wants to make sure that she's okay. She works at Marine Land. She's like a dancer with the orcas. She gets in an accident and loses her limbs. Meanwhile, in recovery, she calls Ali

and he ends up trying to bring her out of the crushing depression that she has come in. Meanwhile, they engage in a casual sex relationship and become friends. 10 seconds. Ali gets into an illegal fighting ring. His sister gets fired from her job because he's been working security and they put cameras and she's been stealing food even though it's expired and she kicks him out. And then he goes and fights, does training, fighting elsewhere in the country and his son, Sam gets brought to him and then falls through the ice and lands in a coma and Sam punches through the ice to save his son.

And then he and Stephanie are reunited and they all are kind of a happy. family. We see no more of his training, but he wins a prize, the end. 24 seconds over, not too bad. Yeah, I mean, it's just sort of a cascading series of stuff happening. I think ultimately... It's like, it's a portrait of their relationship and, you know, I guess in a very, very French way about, you know, people pulling each other through very, very traumas and, you know, this creation of a family unit. I think I just had a hard time when the movie is so very much about this relationship, I had a hard time also then making space, as it were, for this plot about him, you know,

sort of bouncing from job to job, no pun intended, because he was also doing some bouncing. The, you know, the whole thing with the security company and then the warehouse finds out about the cameras and the sister gets fired and all this sort of stuff. The degree to which we're supposed to care about the sister? This is the thing is just sort of like, are these people sort of, you know, satellites in his life? Because the other thing is, and like, credit to Jacques Odiard, there are some moments, sort of scattered moments in this movie where. it's really kind of breathtaking to look at. There's a moment where Marian Cotillard, after the accident, returns to Marine Land to visit her friends there, and

there's this one shot of her standing in front of the whale tank, and the whale sort of approaches her, and I'm just like, damn, that's really beautiful. There's a couple shots of, you know, sort of, you know, Matthias Schenertz in profile. There's one when they're on the beach, and she sort of turns, you know, she's, you know, sunbathing or whatever, and then she turns up, and you get this shot, and it's kind of like juvenile, because it's literally like a shot over her nipple, but like you see, you see his face and his eye opens. But like, but like, but it's more, but it's more, but it's more on his face. And I just feel like there's, I don't know, there's some, there's some good filmmaking here, but I also feel like there is a, the way that. Ali's life is sort of, you know, the day to day of his life is filmed in this kind of really up close and shaky handheld cam kind of a thing where it's like we get no perspective on it. We're so sort of crowded up in Ali's face about all this stuff that it's very hard

to get a sense of like what the world around him is. And I think I get sort of what Odiard's going for and that like there's a lot of pressure on him. He's a single father. He's got to get a job he's got to do whatever um but i feel like a little bit of like sense of his world would maybe have helped a little bit i feel like it's kind of a drift in this mode of filmmaking that was maybe coming to a close around this point i'm thinking of like aronofsky specifically the wrestler the wrestler yeah yeah yeah you know these kind of gritty for lack of a more trite word you know

focusing on bodies and hardship that I think yeah we were more inclined stylistically to look generously on movies at this time and I don't really know how Rust and Bone would be received today because it's yes you're I think you're absolutely right that there's

these, there's these really profound moments of beauty that just like kind of come up out of nothing in this movie that are very, very impressive. Yeah. But it ultimately doesn't amount to much, except for maybe some like hokey, like, glossy outlook on what you do, what, what, uh, going through hardships like these awful circumstances for these characters. Another filmmaker I sort of, another filmmaker I sort of kept thinking of during, while I was watching this, was Andrea Arnold, who I know, I was reading the reviews to Bird recently, and I sort of, I think at some point there's an accumulation where if a filmmaker does sort of enough things that feel similar to one another, you reach a sort of precipice where that either becomes this sort of beloved signature style or people start to pick it apart. I think Sophia Coppola reached a certain point where all of a sudden everybody's like, are all of your movies about like girls in Guilted Cages?

And Andrea Arnold is definitely at that point. Andrea Arnold is definitely at the point where everybody is like, maybe enough of like, what exactly is this sort of like, you know, poverty tourism thing that you're doing? And yet I watch a movie like Rustin Bone

and I'm like, Andrea Arnold does this kind of thing better. And I don't know exactly how to. I understand what. What track you're on here, and I think I agree. Whereas, like, I, for, from my perspective, I don't think that Andrea Arnold's stuff is poverty tourism, and I don't think it's like, you know, I think there is a, there is a sense of, you know, her being sort of drawn to, you know, these kinds of characters. But I also feel like there is a sort of, there's a lyricism in the way that she addresses it. and something like American Honey, where it does not feel, I think Bird sort of like tips the scales a little bit, because Bird is a movie that is sort of split in two. And half of it is this very sort of like aggressively lyrical, almost like fable. And the other half is this more sort of like grounded thing with Barry Keogan as this single dad, who's kind of a fuck up, but is kind of, you know, lovable. And I feel like that's the movie that I'm like, this is the Andrea Arnold that I really love.

like, whereas, like, there's a beauty to it. There's a delicacy and a sort of, like, a quietly well-observed nature to it that got out of something like American Honey, which feels also like there's some, there's something in the water in that movie. Do you know what I mean? That feels a little magical, and it comes across when they're, like, singing the song on the bus or whatever, you know what I mean? or in the way certain shots are filmed.

Do you know what I'm saying? The interesting thing I think about that movie is it is the movie where she's getting dogged with, you know, people being like, enough. But also she is pushing the limits of her perspective. You know, there, you know, magical realism is becoming like, we need a swear jar for talking about magic. realism in movies but like that is kind of what she's going for yeah in that like it's not quite the same thing that she has always been this is not a realistic movie in any way it's very

impressionistic etc but also bird we're talking about bird and she's i i respect it for her so very clearly pushing past the limits of what she wants to do but i also think it's a movie where not a whole lot of it works, but I appreciate the swing and the attempt of it. Yeah. I think I like it a little bit better than you and that like I think half of it really works and then half of it just doesn't for me.

Yeah, I kind of, but I understand where you're coming at with this comparison to Odiard because I think that they are both filmmakers who are kind of defined by their approach into a material, into their material and they have you know a stylistic flourish that is their own yeah um and they're willing to go to perhaps pass the limit of what is landishness a word i know one can be outlandish

but can one be landish nearly landish yeah um credulity sure sure yeah um because even rust and bone this is why we would pin it as like wallowing in misery because I do think it goes a little bit past the point of credulity once we have a child falling through the ice for seemingly no real plot-driven reason other than to get to the final point that he ultimately wants to think. I absolutely agree. It's not intrinsic to the material that we're talking about.

Though I suppose throughout the whole movie we're like something awful is going to happen to this kid because this is the movie. This is the kind of movie, yeah. One thing I think is probably important to remember when talking about the awards sort of trajectory of Rustinbone is it was sort of existing within the decently significant halo of a prophet, which was... Yeah. What year was a prophet, 09? I think so.

Okay. So this is only a few years later, but it is... Which he also lost the poem to Michael Hose. Hanukkah, the movie he loses the palm for for this movie. I mean, loses is in scare quotes. They were both in competition together. Right. This movie was in competition with Amor.

Right. Hanukkah's other other palm winner, yes. But I feel like, I think Rustin Bone sort of coming right after a profit, and a profit is not only a movie that does well at Cannes and at, you know, the international festivals, but like is a pretty good breakthrough

in the States. And as an Oscar nominee, it's sort of surprisingly does not win the Oscar. Is that the one that lost to departures? No, I'm pretty sure that it lost to... No, because White Ribbon didn't win, or did White Ribbon win? Maybe it did.

Now I'm second-guessing myself. Hold on, hold on. You might be right. Yes, that's an international feature. 2009. No, secret in their eyes. No, they both lost a secret in their eyes. That's what it was.

Right. Yes, yes. I thought so. Departures was the year before. Departures beat the class and waltz with Bashir. And then, yes, this would, but that was the trend at the time was you would have these really sort of acclaimed movies. And then they would get beat by these more sort of like broadly appealing ones. Departures the Secret in Their Eyes

In a Better World wins in 2010 over something like beautiful and dog tooth and Ansondes And so So Tse wins over Paradise Now I would also include the lives of others in this conversation Though I know that that's a movie

Seemingly the world likes way more than I do But it beat Pan's Labyrinth And that was sort of like What? Pan's Labyrinth was winning all these other awards And then I think once, then Ascar Farhadie wins in 2011 for a separation. And that's when I feel like you see a little bit of, you know, the change there, where then all of a sudden you get this run of the most sort of acclaimed a tourist movies winning. A separation wins. Amor wins in 2012 for Michael Hanukkah. The Great Beauty wins for Palo Sorentino. Ida wins for Pavel Pavlovakowski.

son of Saul wins for Lashlo Nemish, which is not like universally acclaimed. And I guess you could say that like maybe Mustang that year was the more acclaimed one. But like it still does not feel like we've sort of backslid yet into, and then we get into like Roma and Parasite and drive my car in these movies that are like zone of interest, these movies that are in the best picture race. And that's sort of the era of the international category that we're in now. And that will probably continue with Jacques O'Diard. Amelia Perez. Though, okay, so let's pivot a little bit to talking about Amelia Perez for Jacques O'Diard. And then we can talk about the international race and specifically the international race in 2012.

Yes. What's going on with this? I know we're recording this a month in advance. It could be much more clear by the. time this airs, but at the time that we're recording, and maybe this movie could also still stay in flux for a while. Yeah. It really feels like the sales have been taken out of this movie in a way, and I wonder if it's about to become an even bigger villain, because that could just be appearances, and

the movie is going to prove as strong of a player as we initially thought it would be, but everybody's going to think it's dead, so that's going to make people hate it more. I have a few sort of avenues to take with Amelia Perez. And we should say that we are recording this about a month ahead of when you will be listening to it. Before Golden Globe nominations. By the time you listen to this, this could be a completely different landscape. But as we are sort of experiencing it now, and I do want to say, I have, like, it's not universally despised by people. Like, I do feel like I've been, I've seen reactions from people late.

people who are just now seeing it on Netflix who are liking it. It's not universal. It's, you know, this is not, you know, there's a lot of, there's a wide range of opinions on Amelia Perez. But I think when this movie played at Cannes and it won, you know, this shared best actress prize, plus screenplay was the other prize. Jury Prize. Jury. So effectively third place. Right.

Um, so clearly the, the can jury headed by Greta Gerwig really, really liked it. The reviews were good, like better than I think I expected, um, at the time. Well, well, not like, you know, there was nothing, nothing at can is ever like universally praised. This is the other thing is doing, doing the can pool now. I'm sort of realizing that, like, perception. You really do see how global tastes can be very different. Yes. And by that, I mean, you know, you have American critics, you have French critics, you have critics from, like, Japan, and you can have very divergent tastes to movies that we might think domestically are universally praised, which is very instructive to me.

And I think it's instructive to the Oscar race as the Academy membership has become more and more global. At what point did Netflix hop on to the train? Was that before Cannes or after? Pre- Awards, and I think they had the biggest payday of anything that was bought out of the festival. I think they... So it was bought out of... It was bought from the festival, essentially. Correct.

So, okay, so there's... At Cannes, at Cannes, then, because it gets these awards and because Netflix buys it. And it's, you know, I think at that point, it sort of affixes itself into... this, you know, Oscar conversation in that now all of a sudden, this is this is taking the shape of the

movie, the international feature that will find itself in the best picture race, the way that zone of interest did last year, I'll quiet on the Western front the year before, drive my car the year before that, Parasite, you know, Roma, all these movies like, this is the trend. Anatomy of a fall. Yes.

So then all of a sudden it is now being talked about and sort of looked at as an Oscar movie. And then we get to the fall festivals here where it is very quiet. Like you and I were both at TIF this year. Did you hear a single person talk about Amelia Perez at all? I didn't. It played later, so a lot of press would have been gone. And I think a lot of the

like on the ground hubbub around Amelia Perez was Selena Gomez was going to be there. Right. And then it wins runner-up or second runner-up for the people's choice. One of the runner-ups. One of the runner-ups. So a quieter, and this was the thing where like, Amelia Perez screened eight bazillion times at Tiff, and this is why we thought that there was a big contender to win people's choice,

and ultimately it doesn't. So to me, it was kind of a quiet fall festival scene. season, whereas neither a ton of praise nor a ton of controversy. And that was one of the things that I think people were bracing for was like, what's going to happen when, like, more people see this movie and sort of see what it's about? And then it played New York Film Festival? Yes, but the really strong buzz for the movie, and granted, this is a very limited thing because of the nature of that festival. The very, very overwhelmingly strong response was apparently at Telluride, where, you know, various pundits who go there and talk about their experience that that was the, like, most talked about movie, the most enthused movie of that festival. But, you know, you're up in the mountains with billionaires.

This is sort of what I... People who see less movies and see less big swings in movies. And this is sort of what I'm getting at is, you know, so the bulk of the buzz for Amelia Perez is coming from Cannes from Telluride, which are the most... more sort of rarefied, you know, exclusive, you know, festivals, in which case, like, the reaction to this is kind of cloistered. And so the movie then premieres, you know, it plays the other festivals, but it, you know, then makes its way to Netflix, which is the least cloistered environment possible. You know what I mean? And we were all... The least cloistered, but then the most, the place where...

you know, looking at things out of context and granted the things that they're pulling out of context are also like, well... Even in context, they're not great. This is the thing. And this is why we were all sort of like

cringing. I have this conversation with you and with Katie and with Nate Jones and whatever and we were just a little like we can see where this is headed, where this is going to premiere on Netflix and people are going to clip this thing out of context and it's going to seem awful. But also that people who are watching the whole thing

are also like, this is your Oscar frontrunner? And there's this sense of like, there's this Emperor's New Clothes kind of a sense of like, who said that this was an Oscar frontrunner? Why did we believe them? What, like, you know, is this a sort of scales falling from your eyes kind of a thing? Or is this that this movie is just sort of very divisive and some people will really, really love it and some people will really, really hate it? But I think there's, you know, a lot of a big sense of, well, this movie is fools gold.

This movie doesn't have it. And this movie is going to, it has been exposed now. And now it's going to go away. But the thing is, and we sort of forget this because Netflix has had sort of these few years of downturn just in general as a company. Netflix is still a very powerful publicity entity. They still spend a lot of money on their awards players. And they have made their decision that Amelia Perez is their awards movie this year. I think they've sort of downshifted from this sense from several years ago where they're like, we'll get two or three movies in the best picture category because like we have just that many.

And now it feels like yes, they have Maria and yes, they have the piano lesson. But unambiguously, they have made their choice that Amelia Perez is their movie. and they are going to get this movie into the best picture race. So then it becomes, as you said, now all of a sudden is this the astro-turf? What's the thing they say about pop girls when they try and discredit them? Industry plant. It's an industry plant of a movie. It does feel a little industry-planty.

But I think that this is a movie that, and like this is something people don't ever want to hear about Oscar voters, but it is true about them. This is a movie that will be appreciated by people who see less movies than we do. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm absolutely right. Is I, every time I think about that, I get mad about, like, how many more movies a year I watch than most, most Oscar voters, like, but then the median Oscar voters. Yes. How many more, uh, especially when you're looking outside of like narrative movies or looking outside of American movies, you know, yes. Anybody who's listening to this podcast, you probably, probably see more movies than the Academy does.

The median academy member, yeah. Yeah, and, like, the reason that they're going and seeing Amelia Perez is because Netflix puts money into it and they think, oh, so this is what I need to see before I vote. That's literally the job of Oscar publicity. It's literally, like, can you make your movie on the, if a person is only seeing five movies this award season. How do I make? How do I make my movie one of those five?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think there is an element to, aside from the things that are very cringy, and I would say that the cringy things about this movie are unshocking that a cis white guy from France made it. Well, I was good. It's so front. This is the thing is, when people talk about how is the movie transphobic, and I'm like, first of all, not my call to make, you know, as a cisgender person, but also.

Yeah. to me it's this is not a a bigoted filmmaker this is a french filmmaker who's high on his own supply very much so and i think the things that even aside from what we might take umbrage with in the movie you know uh on those degrees i think stylistically the things that i watch and i'm like well this is just throwing a bunch of shit at the wall this is a finger paint This is, you know, just a mess to me. For someone who maybe sees fewer movies and is going into it rather generously or with a certain expectation already, is going to see, is going to probably see it as more audacious as opening their mind rather than. And I think there is some audacity in the movie.

I think I become Nina Garcia watching a lot of that movie and just being like, I question, I question the taste level of, of. of this film. Yeah, it's, I think it's a movie in Poor Taste that has a good performance or two. I think it's got some good performances. I think it has some moments here, there, that I feel like are very effective. Its biggest sin for me is that it is a really, really poor musical, and it is, and it is, you know, and that's, that's, that's a big, big part of what it's sort of, the audacity that it's, you know, telling it's not just a movie, about a, you know, a transgender drug kingpin trying to write the wrongs of her life and whatever. It's all of that plus the musical. And it's just a really bad musical with unmemorable songs. And that to me is just like, ugh.

And some of what you're getting at, to me, is its greatest sin, which is it plays too fast and loose with genre to the point that I don't even think the movie knows. what movie it's supposed to be, especially in the third act, which I think is just really off the rails and not good. Can I tell you a musical with better songs and a more interesting take on the world that was released this year is Joshua Oppenheimer's The End? I know. I'm so happy that you're positive on the end.

And I feel like we're the same. We're positive on this movie with a seatbelt. This is not a movie that fully works. Right. But it is taking swings and you're like, I see why you took that swing. Yeah, I like it. But it is also a much more straightforward musical than I think you would expect from Joshua Oppenheimer musical. Right, right, exactly.

Joshua Oppenheimer, for our listeners, if you've seen the documentaries, the act of killing and the look of silence about the Indonesian Genocide. This is his first, I believe, narrative feature film. Yes. with Tilda Swinton and Michael Shannon. Michael Shannon, who has a beautiful singing voice. My goodness. Like, did not expect that at all. And George Mackay and Moses Ingram.

Is the singer to talk about it. Well, sure, but I'm less surprised that Moses Ingram has a beautiful singing voice than I am, that Michael Shannon is kind of like melodious. I also think that that movie is maybe better about things than we want it to be. We want it, because it's coming from Joshua Oppenheimer, to be this Eat the Rich musical, which, like, it dabbles in that, certainly. Yes. But I think it's a better movie about how families and people survive unmentionable things. Retreat into themselves and sort of, yeah.

Yeah. And how it's kind of impossible to get through these situations with all of your moral, entirely intact. And alone. And you know what I mean? That's the other thing is this is a family that sort of, you know, decided in the face of apocalypse that it was going to go it alone. And you sort of see that like that's only going to get you. That's, it'll keep you safe for a while, maybe forever. But it will ultimately, you will fail. And it definitely, again, this is a movie that premiered at Telluride and cratered with that audience. And I'm, not surprised, side-eyes Telluride audiences. One of these days, if I end up going to Telluride, I'm going to have to be moving throughout that little town. Like I'm Vigo Mortensen in Crimes of the Future. I'm going to have to be cloaked and darting between building.

I love this great enemy of Telluride that we were building up in the lore of this podcast. I mean, people speak of it. It's just a ski town. It's just a Ski-Town, Chris, it can't hurt you. I know, I know, I know. All right, do we want to back, do, okay, so I guess to put a button on the Amelia Perez thing, we kind of don't know where this is headed. I think there is still a world in which it is among the sort of most nominated movies of the year, even though... I still think there's a world where Jack Godiard's winning a best director Oscar for it.

That to me feels like a bridge too far, but, you know, who knows at this point? I think we're still in a very, very unsettled environment for this year's awards, which is really interesting. The thing that I sort of don't relish is that once, I feel like there is a, and this is going to be especially true now after this election, there is a way in which the culture sort of picks its villains and then unleashes the arsenal on their villains in a way that, becomes completely out of proportion to the sin of making a flawed movie. Do you know what I mean? Where all of a sudden people who, and this is also people who in the culture who only watch a few movies every year, who maybe haven't watched the movie that they're making fun of, you know what I mean?

That like all of a sudden it becomes this like online social media culture of, it's like an arms race to see who can sort of be the most biting, dismissive, acidic, whatever, and to sort of cast the most extreme aspersions upon the people who made the movie, the people who like the movie, the people of whatever. This is sort of what I'm not looking forward to with Amelia Perez. Once Amelia Perez has now become the designated villain, then all permission has been granted to like open fire on the movie in a way that I think ultimately does not serve a film culture or art culture in any way.

And doesn't keep movies from winning awards. Right. That's the other thing. Yes. So, right. Your efforts will prove to dust. All right. So that's the take on Amelia Perez so far.

If you want to hear more of our take on Amelia Perez, subscribe to our Patreon because we'll be doing award season check-ins throughout the season, and we will probably have plenty of opportunity to talk about it. Rustin Bone, however, wasn't even the French submission? Well, of course not, yeah. Though it would still be, you know, nominated for various awards bodies in the, you know, whatever their international feature race was, people like the Golden Globes, Critics Choice. I think it won some critics prizes as well that year because maybe they have the better process in mind that a country does. The Academy, here's the thing.

We've done movies that talk about the international feature race before, for any new listeners who maybe don't understand what the process is. Movies are selected by their country, and then that is the movie that is in the race for that country. Emilio Perez is the French submission this year, even though I believe none of it takes place in France. It just is made with French money by a French filmmaker, so it got to be the French submission. this you know amelia paris is an interesting case because of what i just described and there's other movies in the race this year that open up other cans of worms uh including the political realities of some of these countries that are submitting them yes uh the seat of the sacred fig is kind of front and center this year it is the german submission but it was made in iran by iranian filmmakers but with some uh in defiant substantial enough german funding that it qualifies also as a german production but it was made in defiance of the state and so yes it is a very politically motivated film that the iranian government would never allow to be the iranian submission because very in some of these countries a lot of the you know the body that is deciding what the submission will be will have ties to the government. Right.

So this is also a film that is, while has come out the other side, because of funding issues, you know, it can be a submission. It can be in this race. But there's, you know, films that you may never hear about, partly because they are political films that their government will not support, especially on a global platform. Right. So we're in an interesting place. There's also all we imagine is light this year, which got kind of interestingly placed within the funding situation because while Paiil Kapadia is a female filmmaker, there were some concerns that, you know, that movie might have had not necessarily politically incendiary. things, but that the tenor would not be supportive of that movie. But what I have read, the situation around that movie not being submitted by India was they

thought that it was to French, given its funding situation. And then it was shortlisted by France. France did not choose that movie. You could concede that it's because Amelia Perez was seen as the more likely winner. Sure. You could say that it. And France was tired of not winning because France has been in this sort of. of psycho-drama of its own making.

They did not submit Anatomy of a Fall last year. The year they submitted Teton, even though everybody was sort of screaming at them, like, this is not going to work out for you. Which got Terry Fremot booted from the selection committee because he was seen as picking Titon because he wanted Cannes to cement their place, whatever. One of the things, speaking of all we imagine is light, though, one of the things that I'm sort of learning from the sort of controversial nature of that movie and also recently RRR is I don't know fuck all about Indian politics right now. And this is a huge blind spot for me. This is not,

you know, this is in no way speaks well with me. But there's a lot going on with the film industry in India and what gets sort of exported to the West and these sort of, you know, factions and interests within India that definitely, you know, you can watch a movie like RRR and obviously that movie has a lot of like history and sort of, you know, slant to it. And then you sort of read about the people who are pissed about that movie and you're like oh I didn't really see that at all because I'm coming at it from my like absolutely ignorant western perspective and um all we imagine is light is sort of a little bit like that too we're like you know I see a very different movie than somebody you know who is Indian obviously sees with that movie you could also make and like this is maybe less problematic but also uh you know you could see the bigger picture of where this is a problem is some of these industries, you know, the films that they're putting forth and supporting are like,

you know, India and China are huge film industries for their nations. They in many ways rival America because of the scale of productions that they're producing and the money that they're making in their home country. And what the films that are being put forth, you could see something like all we imagine as light, regardless of any political or funding situation, being at a disadvantage because

that is a character piece. It is a more intimate chamber drama. It's not bombastic. And India typically puts forth larger scale, you know, comedies and scale. Similar with China, China puts forth a lot of big spectacle films as their submission. And ultimately, if that's not what a certain industry wants to put forward, then, you know, maybe something that could get recognized that is a smaller film doesn't. I'm a proponent that, you know, the Academy should be able to support both types of movies and, you know, be able to support movies that don't need political backing to be in the race, you know. I think what I've had a few of these conversations in sort of like in Vulture Slack and with some other folks, about sort of what is to be done with it. It feels like there's a growing consensus

that, like, the current configuration of the international feature Oscar is not, you know, can't go on forever in this current, you know, state because it's just becoming politicized to the point where your, you know, good films are falling through the cracks. So what do you do? because one of the, one of the virtues of the current system, which is, you know, every country who wants to submit gets one movie is it prevents as much as possible, sort of block voting all, you know, three out of five French movies or three out of five movies from Italy or whatever. You get these sort of like more westernized European, you know, dominance of this country, of this cat. it sort of forces the Oscar voters to look beyond, you know, Western Europe. And I think if you can find a system where, and, you know, my solution to all of these things, I always say this, my solution to all of these things is panels and juries. You know what I mean? Just sort of like to have a sort of like a selection panel who does the work of truly scouring the globe for. You know, and encouraging, you know, other countries to submit, you know, filmmakers from other countries, which is to say it's to submit, so that you don't lose out on movies from the Middle East and Africa and Southeast Asia. The Academy has a bad history of not recognizing African cinema.

I think Timbuktu was the most recent. well the man who sold his skin was from Tunisia and that might be the most recent one yes but yes you're right yeah yes like there's that's absolutely true and so that's a thing that you want to you know keep in mind and so if you can put whether it's you know a tiered system of voting

or panels or juries or whatever to ensure that you are getting a truly sort of global sweep of things. Especially when we're in a global reality that, you know, a filmmaker from a country is not necessarily getting funding from that country or telling a story about that country, you know, but they still should have an equal place. Well, that's the other thing that's making this category sort of increasingly untenable as it is currently constructed. is the globalization of film is just making it absolutely impossible to exactly what you just said, impossible to tell, you know, at what point does a movie stop being from one country and start being from another country? And at some point, you're sort of like making... We'll have this conversation again if we ever do cachet.

Yeah, yeah. Which was declared ineligible because it was like, well, you're not from that country or from this country. This is, you know, rules of... It's changed. So to sort of dig into the 2012 international feature race, where, again, as you say, Rustin Bone was not submitted because what was the... The Intouchables, a big, huge French hit, which ultimately was shortlisted but did not make the final lineup. That's right, which was remade in America as...

The upside. The upside. With Brian Cranston and Kevin Hart. Yes, and Nicole Kidman. I was reading something around the time of – because I read a couple of the, like, who got snubbed articles from the morning after – of the morning of the announcements to see just how Marian Cotillard really was, like, at the tippy top of the biggest snubs. It was like Catherine Bigelow for – Catherine Bigelow and Ben Affleck and Best Director, because they both got snubbed that year. And then it was like, what happened to Marion Cotillard? Because she had been nominated for everything.

But one of the things they mentioned about The Intouchables is that it was currently that Paul Figue was trying to make an American version of it with it was someone and Chris Tucker. And now I can't remember Jeff Goldblum maybe. I can't remember who the... Don't quote me on those actors, but I feel like... But Paul Figue at that point had been attached to it. So anyway, yes, the Intouchables was the French submission. Other movies that didn't make the cut were Beyond the Hills, which was a Romanian movie. And an Icelandic movie called The Deep, a Swiss movie called Sister.

And then your nominees that year were, of course, Amor, which won, because, of course, it's a Best Picture nominee. So this was the first year that I had done the Watch All the Nominees year. And I remember, I didn't watch Contiqi until the very, very last. like the morning of the Oscars. I like got it just in under the wire because I didn't I didn't rank them for anybody. I just did this for me the first year. So it was more like a personal challenge.

So I finished that thing at the at the last possible second. Kantiqi was a Joachim Ronning movie. Joachim Ronning, who has since directed the Maleficent sequel and Young Woman in the Sea, the Women Don't Belong in the Sea movie. But also was directing. With Espin Sandberg. Yes. And they both make a Pirates of the Caribbean movie that I think we've all forgotten about.

But also, Jo Kim Ronning is directing the new Tron movie coming next year. Yes, yes. I am a little bit excited about. Pablo Lorraine was nominated this year for No. No, was the first press screening I went to after I left my job at ABC and became a full-time freelancer that year. So that was super fun. a Royal Affair, which was Mads Mikkelson and Alicia Vikander, a Danish movie. And then War Witch, which was a movie, this is, I mean, what we're just talking about,

a movie that is set in, I believe, the Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, but is, was the Canadian submission that year. So, interesting category, have you, how many of these have you seen? Uh, I think I've seen, I don't think I ever did see Contiki, so I've only seen three. I've seen a more no and a royal affair. I love No. No's great. No is really, really wonderful. One of my favorite Pablo Lorraine movie. Remember when Pablo Lorraine made pretty great movies? Um, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not ready to throw Pablo Lorraine out with the bathwater. No, no, no, no. Pablo Lorraine could always make another, like, really great movie. I thought Alcande was very interesting last year. Yeah. Yeah. We're talking about how Maria is, Maria is a, you know, disappointing movie. It is a movie, great cinematography, beautiful cinematography, but yes, yeah. So Rust and Bone gets sort of iced out.

I think if it had been the submission would have been nominated. Yes, I think that's probably true. You can sort of see what France was going for because the thing about the untouchables was it was like, it was. It was, well, and it was like the departures and, you know, secret in their eyes. It was going to be the spoiler that was going to fell Amor because Amor is this like great movie, but it's a stone cold bummer. And The Intouchables was this like inspiring sort of like, you know, mainstream appealing kind of a movie that would like tug at your heartstrings or whatever. And France also isn't really in the business. of submitting the same filmmaker over and over. You know, this is the first time that Odiard has been submitted since a profit. Right. With Amelia Perez.

And he lost for a profit, but that's not, it's not really like, well, you lost. We're not, you know, sticking, you know, our flag in your movie. It's more like they just cycle through and they give other filmmakers their chance, you know? Let's dip into the Cannes Film Festival that year, though, because that's where sort of this all begins, and that's where Amor kind of gets its big momentum. Real interesting makeup of the Cannes jury that year. I was going to say, speaking of Andrea Arnold. Yes, Andrea Arnold was on that can jury. Nani Moretti was the president, the Italian filmmaker Nani Moretti, who I maybe have never seen any of his films.

Now I'm looking... I don't like his movies, the ones that I've seen, including his Palm Winner, The Sun's Room. I'm not a fan. All right. I've never seen any of his movies. But also, Andrew Arnold, as you mentioned, Hiam Abbas, who... Absolutely, 100%. What's the line in the last season of Succession that she says about...

Get her a cab to go to the subway to go home to her tiny apartment? To her tiny apartment. Love Heama Boss. Emmanuel Davos, Jean-Paul Gautier, sure. I love when they'll just like... See, this is what I want. I want, like, the juries lately have just been a lot of actors and directors, and they used to do things like put Jean-Paul Gautier on a jury. Maybe they don't do it anymore, because maybe it didn't go so well.

Diane Kruger was on this jury, Ewan McGregor, Alexander Payne, Raoul Peck. Like, that is, it's a fairly, like, Western jury, to be clear. But that's a real interesting group of folks who ended up picking the Michael Hanukkah movie. So Amor does win, but it's a real kind of murderer's row of movies in this particular can lineup. It's Beyond the Hills, as we mentioned, the Christian Munju movie, David Cronenberg's Cosmopolis, which is not a movie that I like, but definitely was going for. something. How do you feel about Cosmopoulos? You're a Cronenberg boy. I think I'm net positive on that movie, but not extremely so. I'm into it more so than I think it's good or fully works. For sure, sure. Leos Corax's Holy Motors, which was like the

top 10 list movie of the year. Everybody from like a fancy schmancy publication who released the top 10 list. Holy Motors was either at the top of it or on it in some other some other way. Probably my pick for the palm of this lineup. From what I've seen. I've seen about half of them. Hong Sang Su's in another country. Andrew Dominic's killing them softly. Good movie. John Hillcote's Lawless, formerly the Wettest County. Not good movie. Like Someone in Love, the Akiarostami movie, West Anderson's Moonrise Kingdom, Jeff Nichols's Mud, Walter Sells, on the road. Ken Loach is the Angels share, Thomas Winterberg's The Hunt,

Lee Daniels, the Paperboy. There's a lot of like, there's, it's all over the map there. Like high culture, low culture, good movie, bad movie, you know. La René. What'd you say? Alam René's, you ain't seen nothing yet, which I think was not well received, but it's Alon René. Yeah, yeah.

Carlos Regatas. It's a real, real interesting lineup with some. I'm trying to think of, like, what my top three, of what I've seen. I think Amor is tremendous. I think killing them softly is really fantastic. I love mud. I haven't seen, like, someone in love. I feel like I might really like that movie.

Good movie. Yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, the ugly American, so I'm going to be like, the Wes Anderson movie is my, you know, jury prize winner. Whatever. I probably go a more killing them softly and then mud

is my top three. Are you not a Holy Motors person? Not really. I get it. I understand the appeal that it has to people. To me it feels I probably am not letting go of my sort of resentment, my 2012 resentments of people being like, all right,

like jerk off motion, Holy Motors. You know what I mean? No, Holy Motors is a blast. What are you talking? talking about. Holy Motors is maybe the type of crazy musical that Amelia Perez wants to be. Oh, yeah, Amelia Perez does not sort of tug at the hem of Holy Motors. No, you know, I mean, whatever. Like, I don't know. I was probably immature and just was not going for it. It felt like, oh, we're going to, oh, we're so weird. Oh, look.

This, like, you know, this guy's so bizarre. I don't know. I don't know. I was probably being a mature. I believe a more unanimously won the palm. That's interesting. If I remember correctly. I guess I don't know the voting procedure for.

They all go to this like villa in the mountains. That's like a 20-minute car ride from the Palais. And they just like hash it out, I guess. Isabella Rossellini emerges from a back office with some printouts and is like, I have this information about... Tiri Fremot comes out and says you must vote for Apocalypse now. No, I think there's rules like if you're going to win two prizes, it can't be the Grand Prix or the Palm Door. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

But beyond that, they can do whatever they want. Whatever the heck they want. Russ and Bone wins no prizes. No. So who wins actress that year? Because you would think... It's shared between two actresses and Beyond the Hills, which also won the screenplay prize. Interesting. Okay. Okay. And then Mattz Mickelson wins best actor for The Hunt.

That wasn't, I don't know if I love The Hunt is the thing about that movie. I like him in The Hunt. I think he elevates that movie. Yeah. That's a movie about what somebody is falsely accused of child abuse or whatever. Yeah. I don't know if I always love Winterberg. And like I liked another round quite a bit. Yeah. With a few reservations. There's a little sort of like, there's something sort of like Pat about his movies where it's just sort of like, this is what my movie's about.

And this is sort of the theme. And everything is going to sort of adhere to this. And it feels a little. And I know we're supposed to love Feston, but some of the, especially, we talk about the, like, American movies in the early digital age or the, you know, And even some of the dogma movies, I'm like, I can't do this. This is too ugly. Mateo Garoni wins the Grand Prix for a movie called Reality. Oh, Post-Tenis Bross Lux was also a big movie that year.

Rigottis. So, yeah, no room for Rust and Bone, which I think is fine. I don't think I'm going to, like, sort of, you know, raise, up the problem. There was also the fact that in the other sort of sections this was a big Beasts of the Southern Wild which had also been such a big hit at

Sundance that year. But it wins the camera door for Best first-time filmmaker for Ben Zaitland. Ben Zitlin, man, I had such hopes. I know. Bummer. Bummertown. I would also

say that as far as Odiard in his position, because there's another thing about Cannes lineups where it's like, well, this person's overdue or it's their time, it maybe was too fresh to a profit, which won the Grand Prix. Yep, I could see that.

For, you know, them to be really gunning to award Odiard, because Odieard does win for Dupon three years later. Right, right. He gets that palm, which is like highly contested. And that's the, jury lineup that I always kind of love to hear the gossip about

because apparently Xavier Dilan did a lot of grandstanding against various movies. Right, right, right. Various queer movies at that. Who was the president of that jury? The Coens. Coens, right. Coens can't control their gays, I don't understand it.

But you could also see how the Coens would be like, well, Odiard's obviously over two. Let's give it to Odiard, even though that's not really his most praised movie though I definitely like Deepon better than this I've never seen Deepon so I can't say

Deepon is much more of like a straightforward plot driven while still focusing on like characters and emotions yeah he's rained it in in that movie he's raining it in and I think

you know that's a better movie than people sure I think because that movie won a palm people are harsher to that movie. Yeah, I think that's probably true. I think that's probably true. Can we switch gears to Marion Cotillard for a second? Please. Obviously, she's the sort of the big story

in terms of like the this had Oscar buzzedness of it. She was nominated for pretty much everything for this performance. She's nominated for The Globe, loses the Globe drama to Jessica Chastain for Zero Dark 30. She loses the SAG to Jennifer Lawrence for Silverline. 's playbook. She loses the BAFTA to Emmanuel Riva for Amor, and she loses critics' choice also to Jessica Chastain, which is the rare occasion of the critic's choice sort of going

against what the tide was for the Oscar. I guess maybe at the time of critics' choice, Jessica Chastain was seen as more of the frontrunner before the nominations happened. Yeah, that movie's controversies and whatnot. And reading these sort of snubs and surprises articles from this year, I was reminded how much of Silver Linings playbooks sort of like came on strong towards the end of that campaign, as opposed to at the beginning of it. That movie slowly built its box office, you know. Interesting. So Marianne Cotillard, she wins best.

She had been in, of course, French movies, and she had been in, obviously, Big Fish in America and a good year. But then 2007, she sort of storms onto the scene in Lovianne Rose, a movie that I didn't really love and a performance that I didn't really love. And I kept waiting for it, sort of like Amelia Perez a little bit, I kept waiting for it to sort of like fall by the wayside and let Julie Christie win her second Oscar for away from her, as I thought was richly deserved. And it just never happened. and Marianne didn't go away and she finally wins and, you know, there are still some angels in this city and yet, yada, yet, yet.

And I think one of the things that we forget about that Oscar race that I think impacted it and probably helped someone like Marianne is there was the writer's strike going on. So there might have been one of the precursors, but very famously the Globes didn't air. Right. Right.

Yeah, that was the air that like Atonement wins the Golden Globe and nobody really noticed. Yeah, no, it's a good point. One of the things that I think is striking about Marion Cochere, though, after she wins the Oscar, and it's a thing that people don't really talk about a lot, even though I think it's probably more impressive than even it seems on the surface, is she's pretty much unknown in the States when she wins the Oscar. That is often a recipe for, like, going away again. You know what I mean? Where it's just sort of like, you know, a recipe for...

The breakthrough Oscar, the... And then it's just sort of like there's nowhere for her to go. And then in this case, she really takes advantage of that. She goes on a really incredible run of American movies from this where she's in Michael Mann's Public Enemies, which almost cracks 100 million domestic. She's in nine, which is the one sort of like box office flopperoo, but she gets a bunch of awards attention from it. She's a Globe nominee. She's a Critics Choice nominee. She doesn't get the Oscar nomination. That goes to Penelope Cruz. But she's pretty well regarded in that. She's the

leading actress in Inception in 2010, which is a huge monster hit and really, really ups her profile. She's in Midnight in Paris, which she's not a huge part of, but it's a best picture nominee. She's in Contagion, which did better financially than I remember. And of course, it's like, you know, this really solid Soderberg movie. She's in another monster box office hit in The Dark Night Rises in 2012. It's just, it's a five-year run from the Oscar, four-year run, four or five years, whatever, from the Oscar to this movie where she really kind of like established herself as a major presence, not only like in like, in like, actressy movies but in like big huge box office blockbusters like the american public knows her face

now while staying working in the french industry as well yeah yeah yeah yeah so for as much as like she's never really been my favorite even though i have liked her in certain things um i really have to tip the hat for just how well she navigated that you know post oscar career run of hers so good for her Good for her. And she doesn't get the nomination for this, but she does get a few years later the nomination for two days, one night. Which is an interesting story. We'll talk about, we'll do an episode on the immigrant. And we'll talk about at some point the kind of long and winding road for her to that nomination where Harvey Weinstein, you know, has a vendetta against the immigrant. And then the critics wage their own counterinsurgency. whatnot. It's a pretty interesting story, and then ultimately she gets nominated for almost like the, you know,

the Dardan movie becomes the compromise choice. And it's just like, well, and when she's nominated on the red carpet, she's like, I'm just so happy that I'm here with a movie from the Dardens who just exist in this fully other world than this. And she was just happy that it happened, that their

movie could get a global platform like that. She's incredible in that movie. She's unreal. We'll do the immigrant episode as soon as enough. And I think we'll have that whole conversation. What do we think, though? This also makes her, uh, one of the rare performers to have multiple acting nominations outside of the English language. Oh, wow. I didn't even think about that, but you're totally right. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Cruz joins her. Very good. There's not many people that have done it. All right. So what do we

think about Marion Cochyard in Rustinbone specifically? I think she's, to the degree, which I think the movie's miserableism skews a little too much, I think she's good. I think often what she's asked to do is just, you know, not getting at who this person is, and that's not her fault as the performer. I do think the scene where she's on the balcony and does the routine and you slowly hear firework come, you know, back into our ears. I do think she's really special in that scene in particular. Yeah.

I mentioned the Snubs and Surprises article that I read. The Vulture one was written by Kyle Buchanan that year because he was at Vulture still. He mentioned the surprise that Cotillard did not get the nomination, said her Rust and Bone performance was perhaps the strongest of the year, if not her entire career. So there was that sense among at least some people that this was like career best work and like best, you know, best performance of the year. So this was a very kind of well-regarded performance. To me, it took a while for Riva to take hold in the race. And that's, that's, I think, an element here. I also feel like in my rewatch of this movie, I was surprised by how little of it is her.

movie. Yes. It is kind of show. It is. It is. And I think that that could have laid a factor

to a degree. I mean, if, you know, who else could have been the sixth place person, it's like Helen Mirren in Hitchcock,

which we've recently talked about over on the Patreon. Well, you look at who very well they have been. Like, Hitchcock is more her movie than Rustin Bone

is Marion's. Well, you look at Naomi Watson the Impossible, which is another movie that, You know, she's, you know, it's her and it's you and McGregor, and McGregor has sort of his part of the movie, but it's very much Naomi's movie, you know what I mean, in that. And, and you make a decent point. The other thing is, and I know there's like, there's an Oscar friendliness to this type of character that she's playing, who is somebody who.

Suffering. Had a terrible tragedy happened to them and they're suffering, but they also are just, they have to fight past their. own sort of bitterness. Obviously, I thought of Mary McDonnell in Passion Fish, who's another character who has this, like, accident, she's in a wheelchair, she's mad about everything, she's, you know, not nice to people and ultimately has to sort of push past that. I think Passion Fish is ultimately mostly due to, well, not mostly, like, it's an incredibly well-written film and sort of, you know, wonderful in that way. And I love Passion Fish. And I think. think the acting is also tremendous. But I feel like there is a sense that this feels like a very

kind of, I hate the term awards bait. You know I do. But like, for lack of a better term, awards bait performance, which is triumph over adversity and while also being able to sort of indulge in this very kind of actorly menace and rage and, you know, anger. Emotional rawness. Yeah, yes, there we go. Yes, emotional rawness. So I definitely understand why. Catch my play at Playwright's Horizons, emotional rawness.

It also sounds like the name of like an album. A sequel to hysterical blindness. My t-shirt says the emotional rawness tour 2019 and all the cities that it... That's LG7. That's the name of the next Gaga album. There you go. I think she's good in it, though. Like, there are moments, obviously, I love a moment where somebody finds catharsis through swimming.

So clearly, you know, the moment where, you know, she swims in the ocean and sort of feels like herself again for the first time in a while. I love that. I'm somebody who very much believes in the power of the weightlessness of being in a pool. But I agree with you. The movie definitely seems more of a Matthias Schoenart's movie. I don't know if I get a ton of the unexpected from her. You know what I mean? And this is maybe because we've had two days one night.

We've had other performances that she's had since then, you know. When she's only five years out from an Oscar, you know, maybe this feels more. of a showcase for her than it does today. You know what I think about more and more, and you're going to laugh at me and maybe make fun of me of this. She's an anchorman too in the follow-up to the big brawl scene where in this one there's even more people from different news outlets, and Amy Poehler and Tina Fey are from entertainment news,

and Will Smith is there from sports news. Is this when you bring us to her funny or die sketch forehead to taste? Wait, no, I don't know what that is. She did, I'm pretty sure it was funny or die. She did a skit where she has boobs put on her forehead to, and the whole joke is men won't stop staring at your boobs, so put your boobs on your forehead and they'll look you in the eye when they talk to you. Sure.

But I think what makes it funny is that it's coming from her. I think there's signs along with her social media presence. that she's a coup? I think there's signs that she's kind of a hoot and a half. Yeah. That she's willing to laugh and be goofy. So Anchorman, too, it's her and Jim Carrey are Canadian news. And he's, you know, seemingly like he's English-speaking Canadian and she's French-Canadian.

And it made me think like, oh, I kind of do want to see Marion Cotillard try her hand at comedy a little bit more. Like, I feel like she might be good at it. So that's maybe my hope for the future for Marion is that she gives comedy a whirl. I don't know. I tend to always look optimistically towards Marion. I wanted to delve into a little bit sort of some of the actresses who were not really in a precursor contention that year, but who I thought were kind of amazing. and we maybe talked about this a little bit

when we did our Deep Lucy episode when we talked about Rachel Weiss, but like there are a ton of really great actress performances this year in movies that were never going to sort of scratch the surface of the Oscar race. And there were some, actually, there were some, I'm still surprised that Kira Knightley got nothing for Anna Krenina that year.

As much as Anna Kriana was... People were so looking down their nose at that movie. But it got a ton of craft nomination, you know, attention in... Was it ever not going to get that craft attention, though? That's true, but that at least means that that's a movie that Academy members are watching. Do you know what I mean? And there's a lot of great acting.

Not only Kira Knightley, I think Jude Law is fantastic. I think Donald Leeson's fantastic. I think, you know, Alicia Vakander. But anyway, Kira's on that list for me. Kirsten Dunst and Bachelorette is so fucking amazing. I mean. Fucking amazing. And obviously that movie was never going to make it to the realm of Oscar voters,

but it's really too fucking bad because she's amazing. Both Emily Blunt and Rosemary DeWitt and your sister's sister, Lynn Shelton's your sister sister, are, I think, incredible. Mary Elizabeth Winstead in Smash, was this year. Melanie Linsky and Hello, I Must Be Going was this year. Amiatzi Coronaldi, for Middle of Nowhere, Eva de Verne's Middle of Nowhere, was really, really great.

Michelle Williams, intake this waltz, was this year. I have on my long list, I have Ari Greiner for a good time call, which is a really funny, cute movie that people really like, and I think she's so funny. Rachel Weiss for Deep Blue C, Greta Gerwig for Damsels in Distress. It's just, there's a lot of really good work sort of being done off of the Eaton Path this year. And I understand why the, you know, performances that were nominated did get nominated. I don't really have anything against any of them. I think even down to like Naomi Watson

The Impossible, who I think is so good in that movie. But it's just like every once in a while you want there to be like, well, can we just like nominate 15 actresses this year and, you know, call out a day. Every once in a while. Why not every year? No, I mean, listen, you know, I would agree. So I don't know. What are your thoughts on some of those performances that stick out to you? Love the call out to Bachelorette. Love the call out to For a Good Time Call. Is that not a really underrated comedy? Like, I feel like that movie, by this point, should be like, have like a, a, the kind of

following that, I'm trying to think of like a comparable comedy that people like, that I'm like, no, watch for a good time call instead. I don't know. I mean, people like, I don't want to, like, dog. a simple favor, because I think a simple favor has its charms. But like if half of the people who love a simple favor loved for a good time

call instead, we'd be in a better place, maybe. I agree. All right. What else do we want to talk about? Check in my notes. I don't know. Oh, this is a movie that starts with I like to move it, move it.

Like, that's a fun little needle drop. speaking in this movie. There's some interesting needle drops in this. Yeah. It's all right. It's all right. I don't hate it.

I don't hate this movie. But I also feel like I kind of, I think I'm with you. I think I kind of overrated it a little bit at the time for whatever reason. It's the problems that this movie has, there are movies that have. those problems more definedly that are like movie wrecking. I don't know if it's movie wrecking with this, but it does

constantly feel like this movie is stalling. Yeah. And the biggest swings that it has are not always connected to what the source of this movie is, especially the

child drowning in a lake, which is also just something we've seen as a tragedy in a lot of movies. thing and it just felt like it was sort of randomly thrown in there for um because it had to happen because we were questioning so long in this movie that this child would be in danger yeah all right do we want to move on to the i mdb game let's do that all right tell our listeners all about all right every week we end with the i mdb game where we cheat where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that i mdb says they are most known for

If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits, we mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. That's not enough. It just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That is the IMDB game. Chris, would you like to guess first or give first? Why don't I guess first this week? Okay.

So I'm going to do the thing that I do with you every once in a while, where I'm going to give you the choice between one that's a little bit too easy and one. that's a little bit too hard. I don't feel well, and I feel like last episodes was hard, whatever that was. So give it to me easy today. I don't mind punking out. Listen, this is the New Year's window. Everybody's trying to be relaxed. Understandable.

All right. We talked about all of those actresses who gave great performances in 2012 movies. This is one where we have not done an IMDB game on this person since our very, very early days. so we're going to bring her back around. Kirsten Dunst, IMDB game. Oh, great. Chris Fly. I do feel like there could be some movement from when we previously done.

I genuinely don't remember who it was, so it's very, very possible. Is Power of the Dog on there? It is not. Okay, then maybe there is not movement. Bring it on. No? All right, that's two strikes. Okay.

Wow. Quick two strikes. Wow. Now that you get the years, though, I think you're going to get little. It'll knock them down pretty quickly. Your years are 1994, 20, or sorry, 1994, 2002, 2004, and 2011. Okay, so 2011's Melancholia. 94 could be one of two movies, but I'm guessing it's an interview with a vampire. It is.

What are my other two years? O2 and O4. O2 is Spider-Man. Yep. And O-4 is Spider-Man too? No, but that's a very good guess. um 04

what else was she doing around then at that point she's not doing I guess she is still kind of doing comedies it's not Dick that's 99

oh god dick is so good it really is I'm just going to clip that in isolation though and I'm going to tweet that out. You saying Dick is so good.

They already know. They know my... I bring it to you every ball. Yeah. How dare you. This is a family-friendly podcast. Just kidding. 2004.

Kirsten Dunst was... She speaks the title, the title of the movie in the movie. I always love when somebody does that. So it can't be the cat's meow. No. But it's the same year as Spider-Man. Many people say I'm the cat's meow.

I mean, wouldn't you believe that? Not the Virgin suicides. Nope, that's 2000. Yeah. Oh, man. What am I forgetting? This has got to be... She's not the lead.

She's not the lead of this movie. She's a supporting player. Right. Right. Um... I guess it's probably a romantic comedy. It is. Is it Wimbledon?

No. She's not the lead. Right. It's a romantic comedy, but like atypical. Oh, it's Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. It is very much Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. She's so good in that. Everybody's so good.

Everyone is. Yeah. Yep. Everybody's great. All right. All right. For you, I have also chosen someone we've done. before. But, as I mentioned,

Marion Cotillard received multiple acting nominations for performances not in the English language, and who was the other example I used, but Penelope Cruz. Okay. Penelope Cruz, um, Vicky Christina Barcelona. Correct, her Oscar win.

Valver. Fulverre, another Oscar nomination. All about my mother? Incorrect, not all about my mother. Okay. Um... Well, how about... I feel like there's probably another foreign language one in there, but I'm going to try for something a little bit more mainstream.

Nine? Nine is incorrect. You're getting your years. Your years are 2001 and 2011. Is 2011 broken in braces? It is not broken in braces. 2011, Penelope Cruz. Um... 2011.

So 2008, she wins her Oscar. 2011... Oh, it's not the counselor. Is it the Pirates of the Caribbean movie she's in? Can I get the subtitle? On Stranger Tides? Pirates of the Caribbean on Stranger Tides. 2001, is 2001 like blow?

No. Okay. 2001 is Vanilla Sky? It is Vanilla Sky. I should have thought of that sooner. Okay, all right. Yeah, you jumped right to 2011. I was like, you want to, you want to, you want to,

take a step back, buddy. All right, more challenging than I thought it would be. Okay, but well done. That, everybody, is our episode. If you would like more, This Head Oscar Buzz, you can and should check out the Tumblr at this head oscarbuzz. You should also follow our Instagram at This Head Oscar Buzz. And you can join our Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz.

Chris, where can the listeners find more of you? On Letterboxed and Blue Sky at Chris V File, that's F.E. I am also on letterboxed in blue sky at Joe Reed, Reed spelled R-E-I-D. You can also subscribe to my Patreon exclusive podcast on the films of Demi Moore called Deme Myself and I at patreon.com slash demipod, D-E-M-I-P-O-D. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez, and Gavin Mavius for their technical guidance,

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