This Had Oscar Buzz - 329 – The Devil’s Own (with Dan Mecca and Conor O’Donnell!)

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

What a delight to have not one but TWO pals join us this week, The B-Side hosts Dan Mecca and Conor O’Donnell! Naturally, we’re going back to forgotten films from the 1990s with director Alan Pakula’s final film, The Devil’s Own. The film starred Brad Pitt as an IRA member hiding out in America opposite Harrison … Continue reading "329 – The Devil’s Own (with Dan Mecca and Conor O’Donnell!)"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Millen Hack, and French. Dick Pooh. Welcome to America. Hi. So, don't you think it's lovely here? You're from Belfast?

Hi. He was welcomed into their family. Mom said dinner's ready. That's a lovely dress you have on there. Are you married? And trusted. as a friend. But something in his past.

Jebriefield, go to bed it. Has brought the danger home. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that doubles as the sex tips for straight women from a gay man audiobook. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all, went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with the worst Irish accent this side of the Atlantic show, Reid. Sorry, I'm just getting home from a confirmation party where people were spontaneously broke out into Irish music and dancing. So I hope I'm not late for the occasion.

the Irishness in this movie really was bordering on like vulgar like a little like a little but like my culture is not your costume kind of a thing right like something appropriative because it's like it's post like the Jim Sheridan movies taking off in the US what do you think Jim Sheridan thought of this move? You know, I was thinking of every Irish, like, I was like, well, did Daniel D. Louis? Did Daniel D. Louis ever watch this movie? Who we should say is English, but obviously has portrayed Irish people. Like, Daniel D.L. went into a movie theater, you know, and was like, walked right out. You know, it's just like. What did Colin, what does Colin Farrell have to say about this movie? The minute the cranberries hit, he was like, oh, okay.

They slammed those cranberries too. Oh, my God. Look, who could blame them for the cranberries? Listen, this is a movie that begins with a Cranberry song and ends with the Melissa Etheridge song. I could have directed this movie in 1997. It's very possible than I do. It's also pre-Celtic woman, you know.

It is pre-Celtic Woman, which was an answer on learned league this season. And I answered it because I had seen the SNL sketch. And I thought I was answering it wrong because it was like, well, I'm sure it's not called Celtic Woman, but that's all I have to go on. So I just wrote in Celtic Woman. And then went and found out that that's exactly what the actual. group is that it's actually called Celtic Woman. Right. It's just

I'm like, knock me over with a Celtic woman. Yeah. Listeners, this is a momentous occasion. Truly it is. Round of applause. Dan Mecker and Connor O'Donnell are here today. Our faves. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. This is so in leading up to getting recording,

I was like, oh, this is going to be easy. They're coming back. They've been here before. And I keep having to remind myself, no. We're always on their terms. We finally. We're always on their turf. We are the friends. We are the friends who never offered a host, and we are always, like, hanging out at your house.

And finally, it starts to seem weird. Well, next time it's got to be at our house. But then, yeah, it finally started to seem weird, that it was just like, why do you never invite us over? Does your house, like, smell weird? Like, what's going on? And lo and behold, they've come over to this head Oscar buzz and they realize it's a hoarder house.

It's a horror house with, like, stacks of magazines on the floor just like 23 year old old EW fall previews just like stacks to the ceiling. Don't even get me, dude, don't get me started on EW. Fall previews, dude.

I love it. This is, we're so close to the random hearts preview. This is... That's true. Two years away from the random hearts preview. Which I'll never forget. I have such a vivid memory

of when Matt Lauer would do those like profiles and the profileed Harrison Ford and he was like, this year Harrison Ford for random hearts he's like Harrison Ford might be sniffing Oscar he would always like I always remember he did that for Jim Carrey he's like he could be the Grinch who stole Oscar you know and you're like but not have jinxed two more people more thoroughly than Harrison Ford and Jim Carrey when you're like Matthew stop it please come on oh my God there's so many angles to the devil's own which is why I'm so glad to have you guys here first of all because I can't Count on you guys to be more plugged in than I am in terms of, like, old production histories. Like, you guys are going to know, like, the deal with, like, what was going on, uh, reportedly behind the scenes for the devil's own. Because I remember that being, like, a, a fraught production, but I don't remember details. And they're still talking about it.

Harrison Ford is still giving interviews about what went down. Well, during, yeah, we'll get into it. But, but so, you know, somewhat famously now, during the dial of death. publicity run he in one of those I think it was for Esquire it came up or he even he even like maybe somebody mentioned it to him and he basically took responsibility for the troubles no one intended I was going to say for all of the troubles yes yes for the trusset you really don't have to that's how it would get reported out of context I would say Harrison Ford takes responsibility for The Troubles would tweet Harrison Ford takes responsibility for the troubles.

Currently in jail. No, but he was basically he owned up to Brad Pitt developed the script for many years with Alan Pacula. Yeah. And then Harrison Ford came on, insisted on rewrites to beef up his character. Gotcha. And that caused a considerable amount of friction, which then Brad Pitt aired out in that Newsweek article. which is like watching so candid fire happen in real

time you know like like it's so crazy that he did that before the movie came out he did that yeah and wanted to like watch his hands of the movie and disown it and yeah all of that that really cursed I think that really cursed well the devil owns it so it's

true they had to give rights back of the double the copyright yeah um yeah which I guess I just called Bob Iger the devil because this movie is available on who you wouldn't be the first person i'm sure so um and then there's like the whole alan pacula of it all that this is his last movie that he um i think died the next year yeah

and incredible have you read about his death his death is like one of my worst fears the thing where the car the car in front of you hits a pipe the pipe goes crashing through your windshield and kills you like that's horrifying well and here's the thing with the kukula he's was old enough that when you like see he died the next year you immediately kind of go oh man we lost them early that's a shame 70 years old but you assume that he was sick yeah yeah yeah our heart attack and then you and then you go to his wikipedia page and you're like holy mother of god what happened to this guy yeah he was like what is it he was on like the l i e or something i think it was the i think it was the l i yeah yeah and he's and well before that he was supposed to get on a plane but decided not to

well actually to tony todd was there for some reason he was gonna He was at like, I don't know, Six Flags Long Island. He was like, I can't ride this roller coaster. He was heading to the consenting adults premiere or something. You know what's crazy? Actually, Connor, I think we talked about this with Blake mutual friend Blake Howard. Yeah.

I believe, and feel free to fact check me listeners, I think he was going to see Jane Alexander because they were collaborating on a new movie. Wait, is that true? I believe this is true. Yeah, wasn't it about like Eleanor Roosevelt or something? Jane Alexander, who famously is the bookkeeper in all the president's men, great actress. She got nominated for that incredible role in all the business men. I believe Pekula was driving because she lived in Long Island to see her when this happened,

or something in that realm. Very tragic, obviously. Yeah, geez. Yeah, anyway. But yeah, this is the kind of movie that feels sort of right up his alley because he's, at least of the Pekula movies that I've seen. And certainly, you know, all the president's men and clout in the parallax view and on into the Pelican Brief in 93, which is my like er-text for like 90s thrillers with a, you know, with a little bit of brain, but a little bit of, you know, just smart enough but just stupid enough to thread that needle perfectly, perfectly cast. You hopscotch right over consenting adults.

I've never seen consenting adults, I have to say. Maybe one of the worst movies I've ever seen from a major director. and I don't mean to shade Pekula here because I love Pekula. That's Kevin Kline, right? Yeah, Kim Spacey. Ooh. Yeah.

Rebecca Miller. Yeah, Rebecca Miller pre-directing career, actually. Oh, okay. Senting adults is so bad. We talked to, so full disclosure, we briefly covered the devil's own on our podcast, the B-Side many years ago with Blake, actually. Whose B-Side was it?

It was, we did Pekula. It was Pekula. Oh, this was going to be one of my question. questions because I felt like it could It would work for any of them, yeah. For any of them or none of them because even Pakula has some that are like further off. So look, this is the great debate over at the B-side is always this thing of like, like, is the devil's own so cursed that it's not a B-side? It's too well-known.

Yeah. Right. As a debacle. This is why I love going on your podcast because the act of choose. is almost as exciting as the act of like watching the movies because it's like how do you get the exact perfect and then when I go on and you guys are like this is a really good choice for a B-side I'm always like yes yeah but but but so consenting adults is a perfect one because yeah it's very forgotten it's not good um you know man there's plenty of good b sides obviously

but but in the case of this it's like you have Kevin Klein kind of right after his Oscar you have Kevin Spacey before he's a star, Mary Elizabeth Mastonio, like right in her pocket. Yep. Yep. And it's just a total miss, you know, and it's like very fascinating. He recovers with Pelican Brief two years later. He made presumed innocent, which was his comeback movie with Harrison for two years before. Like, it's very like, and even with Pelican Brief, this sort of doesn't really apply necessarily to the B-Sides conversation. But like even Pelican Brief at the time was not regarded as well as it said of yeah we we actually covered that on the podcast because that was blake's argument yeah it was really underrated it was wrapped up in like a really

negative julia roberts press cycle and and it was just it took a while for people to sort of come around even now i did a screen drafts for uh grisham and i was on it with kenny nibart and Liz Hannah. And we all secretly had it in our pocket as the like number one movie. But we all assumed that we were being a little bit controversial about it. Because like I think there is a sense of like, oh, everybody just assumes that like the firm is the best. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I love the Pelican brief. Good galley. Do I love it? And it's really. And look, you know, spoiler alert for the devil's own. And I think kind of you're probably in my pocket. I think we're probably going to defend this movie a bit. Because I do think. A little. A little. A little. There's plenty to criticize. But I do think, not unlike the Pelican Brief, not quite as successful as the Pelican Brief, it is that thing, and we talk about this all the time on the B-side, like, there is so much to celebrate in the formal achievements of this film. Gordon-Willis.

This movie. Great. And it sounds great. I was not kidding about the James Horner thing. Yeah, James Horner is doing great work. James Horner's scoring. Yep, yep. You know, so it's, there are.

things here you know but i think you know like as well as we'll get into it's just it's such a cursed picture right from the beginning and it's funny because harrison ford you know he does this six years later with hollywood homicide right to right significantly more detrimental results right like josh hartnett's get going on morning shows being like yeah i didn't like making the movie i don't like harrison ford you know like just like just straight up being like not fun this is why And I hope it never, you know, disentangles or whatever, like, disintegrates after the fact. But Harrison Ford and Ryan Gosling doing such kind of charming press for Blade Runner 2049. I was like, sure.

Goodness. Like, thank God. Even if the tone of it was very sort of just like grumpy Harrison and like, you know, Ryan Gosling taking it on the chin. They were charming together. And I think it just actually literally, because didn't he punch him in the face on set? I think that was a story. accident accidentally yeah yeah during that bar you know that casino when they fight sequence yeah it just also just i think time reputation has caught up with him where it's a celebrated thing now yeah it's he's a lovable grouch right as opposed to you know look this is the beginning of the end of harrison ford a list leading man i mean this is you know air force one which is this same year wow yes is really the last other than what lies beneath yeah is really kind of the last, out and out, Harrison Ford above the title hit, you know, that's not an Indiana Jones sequel, you know, really, you know, or I guess a Marvel, you know, movie coming out.

Well, this is sort of the timing that we wanted with The Devil's Own that it's going to come out to sort of coincide with the new Captain America movie. And I, somebody who is a lot more lenient on the Marvel movies than Chris is. is, I even still sort of look at this, and I'm like, I don't know if I want this for anybody. I definitely don't want it for it. Like, it does not feel like it is a good fit to me. That trailer, yeah. It kind of feels like they're hiding a thing when you watch that trailer, you know, like. Which they are because they want, you know, they're really good playing peekaboo with the Red Hulk thing or whatever. But like, no, but I just mean like it just, it's like the kind of trailer where you're like, this feels like a bad. Oh. Oh, yes. They did like. Like three rounds of reshoots on the movie. Yeah. And I am of the opinion that we have not had a bad Captain America movie yet.

I know people are mixed on Civil War, but like I think at worst Civil War is like a B. You know what I mean? Sure, sure. Sure. And I think a lot of people do agree with you. I think the Captain Americas are regarded. I mean, certainly the first two are movies I openly like a lot. Yeah, I do.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, any movie that I have said about First Avenger, any movie that has a Powell Pressburger reference. Sure. Yeah. Matter of Life and Death, one of my favorite movies ever made. Yes.

And I think it's a great, agreed, agreed. And it's a very worthy reference, I do, I think so. Joe Johnston is one of our great workman statesman. Yes, totally. And I think, and I always also love, I think we posted this a million years ago where he talked about, he got thrown on to Captain America late after getting thrown on to the Wolfman late. Right.

and he the wolfman he talks about being one of the his i like that you say yeah john wolfman it's about john wolfman yeah john wolfman esq so he'llfman that's how chris pronounces birdman so yeah yeah my name is ralph wolfman uh this is my office no but on the wolf man he he had a terrible experience right romanack got fired slash left he came on it was a really troubled production um and then he immediately just jumped on to First Avenger, which he talks about so glowingly, where he's like, he forced Evans onto the project, Evans worked really well. He turned it into a Rocketeer movie. Like, he turned it absolutely into something that was in his own image. And it was a very modest success. Like,

people forget the First Avenger, it was not like, you know, people, like, one 60 million or something. People forget those first Marvel movies. Yeah. It does speak, look, look, if there's an alter theory to be thrown around with the MCU movies, it's Kevin Fy. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a producer's first thing. Fine, right? But he let Joe Jostin make a Joe Johnston.

This is my point. Feigey really pushed through some mediocre receipts early on. Like, Incredible Hulk disappointed. First Avengers, kind of disappointed. Yep. He pushed through like that. Not every, not every studio head would have done that. And if you're good or ill, obviously, you can debate whether, obviously, you know, for the industry, you know, was it good or not.

But it's a double-edged sword, I think. Yeah, but certainly it's a fascinating moment, that inflection point of the first Avenger of like, you know, should we keep doing this? And they did. And obviously, you know, it worked out for a while. Yeah. For as much as I'm disappointed by the going back to Robert, like, times get tough. So you go back to Robert Donnie Jr. Times get tough.

Sure. Right, right. Feel like you're, you know, begging Chris Evans to come back. I think we're all sort of assuming that at some point Chris Evans will come back because. Yeah. both for him and for the MCU, like they're both kind of hurting without each other.

Sure. Which is a bummer of a thing. You didn't like ghosted? Joe? I will not ever see ghosted. Joe, you didn't like ghosted. Joe will absolutely not acknowledge the existence of Red One.

Oh, which can I tell you something? Saw it and God, God strike me down. I saw it in a theater. I don't know why. I was, I was like, you for adding to the good box office weekend. I was like, I was like, I'm going to go.

Let me go. Dan says I have to see every Lucy Lou picture. Bonnie Hut got a character poster for that movie. So for that, I will allow people to go see that movie. Oh, J.K. Simmons, God bless that movie. But I would like to see the Marvel movies sort of write the ship, if only because I am going to end up seeing these movies. And I would rather they be good than not good. So I want them to be good.

I want, you know, Thunderbolts to be good. I want, you know, the new Captain America is to be good. Oh, I forgot about that. in this year, baby. Hopefully it'll be, you know, Oscar nominee, Sebastian Stan. I was going to say, yeah. Yeah.

But I do have my concerns about the next few Marvel movies in the pipe. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. We'll see. Chris, get us back on track. I've talked about Marvel.

Can I just quickly, because I don't, I just want to, I'm more curious than anything. You guys usually do Oscar origin stories. Oh, yeah. So I wanted to ask, because I don't think me and Connor have actually ever talked about this. Okay. Connor, are our Oscar origin stories the same, I wonder. Let's get into it. Yeah, yeah. Because I'll tell you mine and you tell me if, I don't think we ever talked about this. So mine is, and I remember it so vividly, my mom, Julie Mecca, she's a big character on our podcast. She's come on our podcast. We love Julie Mecca. We love Julie. We love

Julie she's you know very the person right the person in my life who I bet Julie likes the devils of them I think Julie likes this at Oscar bus I was telling her I was coming on what I think so because I really what a true Julie if you're listening we love you I love you I swear to God this is today I was like hey ma like I'm going on a movie podcast friends of mine I like it a lot I can't wait blah blah blah the devil's own and my mom has a funny history of the devil's on which we can get into later um because she loves harrison ford which we're talking about on our show i was like wait a second a complicated history she was in the devil's no my mom is natasha mckelhorn i don't know if i said

that no but but i said natasha mom um star of solaris uh i was like californication never watched it compromise no but but i was like um doing this blah blah blah and she like i said your podcast and she was like oh yes like she said she like reacted like a recognize a recognizing Mission reaction. Wow. So I was like, oh, mom. But anyway, she's listened to this had Oscar buzz more than she's listened to the B side. Definitely.

It's just the cats episode over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah. That's how the cat's numbers keep doing well. It's just Julie Presby play again. So my year is the English patient year. Oh, okay. Because I always think it's the Titanic year, but then I remember it's the English patient year because I remember the Juliet-Binost dress.

I remember the surprise. And I remember the Seinfeld episode. About the English patient. About the English patient. And it all is like in my head of like, oh, yeah, I was a little young, but my parents watched it. And I remember it vividly. And I remember like the English patient being one of those movies where I did not, you know,

you're too. I was like, oh, I get that this is an important movie. I'll never watch it. I'm a kid. Right. Right. You know, the title seems important. The English patient.

Of course. Sure. Yeah. It's a very important poster. Right? You're like, ooh, okay, okay. And I've since watched and loved, I love the English patient, actually. Yeah, you know, and I think it's a great movie. And I think it's one of those weird Oscar movies where now, like, it's that weird thing where people are like,

you know, movie sucks, you know, and you're like, no, it doesn't. Do you remember then, Dan, the opening to the 96 Oscars, because Billy Crystal hosted, and he hadn't hosted for three years. It had been Whoopie, then Letterman, then Whoopie again. So the whole idea was like Billy Crystal's coming back. And the sort of crux of this opening kind of montage bit was, you know, Billy's, how do they get you to come back? You know, are you nervous?

You're not going to be able to live up to it. What's going on? Yeah, yeah. And I remember very vividly the, so he does his thing where he's going through all of the movies, right? He's in Fargo. He's in shine. He's in whatever. And then he's in the deserts of North Africa, finally.

And it's the scene where the biplane is coming after Ray finds. And who's piloting the biplane, but Letterman, going, what you do is you introduce Oprah to Oma, Oprah to Opa, and then Ouma to Oprah and Oprah to Oma. And he just keeps on saying, and Billy's like running away from him and whatever. That's what I remember about the beginning to the 96th century. Oh, Billy. So I do remember that vividly, because I was thinking about this. I think technically my origin would be the Titanic year.

As it is for me. But I remember watching the English patient year. And that was maybe the first year that I was like, oh, right. This is a thing that happens every year. This is like when movies are good. They get a war. You know, like, I was like, English patient year was the first year. I was like clocking the Oscars as like a thing that I was even vaguely interested in.

It is the same because I don't. Because Titanic was the first year that I like saw. a movie really liked it and wanted it to win. Well, I remember being so offended that Leo didn't get nominated. Sure. Like in my kid brain.

I was like, what, dude? He's the star. Like, he didn't get nominated. You know, I just remember. And he didn't go. He didn't go. No, he was a little bit of a baby about it. He was.

And Kate was like defending him. We love Kate Winslet. She was like, no, no, no, Leo. We love Leo. I remember feeling very, very fired up about how I thought Kate Winslet deserve to win best actress that year. Who was hell and hell.

I remember being, yeah, I remember being like really disappointed. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't want. God, God help me. I still, I know it's so tough now, but I still love as good as it gets. It's still, it's no sense. I loved it. I loved it then.

I love it now. So I had nothing. And I have rewatched it the same way we were talking about, we don't live here anymore of like, of like with the fear. And I still, I see all the problems. And I'm like, I do not care. I like love this movie. I agree.

I remember my dad made me go to sleep that year. Like he was like, no, it's good because it goes on for a million years. And he like made me go to sleep. And then I went to sleep before they announced Best Picture. But I remember I woke up the next morning. And then our like local paper, it was like front page news, right? I had all the time. So many years.

All the Titanic Oscars. And see, that's my origin story. Is English patient in the newspaper? And then Titanic is my first. And then my dad woke me up the next day and like literally like dropped the newspaper on me. Like I was in bed and he like dropped. He's like, oh, it won. That's nice that you'd like, your dad knew that you were interested.

But yeah, there were so many years where I was like, I would see the supporting actor wins. I would see, you know, whatever. Colia win best foreign film or whatever. And then you would see the original song performances. I'd see at least a few of them. And then I'd get sent to bed and I never got to see actor, actress, director, picture until the next morning. I think the Titanic year might have been the first, no, because I definitely, I don't know. Was it Billy again in Titanic?

Yes. Yes, it was. Because I remember, my origin is the 94 Oscars, the Pulp Fiction versus Forrest Gump, but I still maybe don't think I was allowed to stay up late enough to watch that live, the win. The thing that I do remember is I watched all of the Titanic Oscars and taped it off of TV. So I had that one on VHS. So I would watch that one kind of again and again, which is fun. And speaking of Harrison Ford, the next year is the famous they brought him out for picture. Oh, for.

And he's like, Shakespeare and Love. Well, my listener, if you want a good anecdote about that moment in Oscar history, the Eds Wick book has an incredible. Oh, yeah. Really? Have you guys read that book? No. I need to read this Ed's book. Oh, man. It's pretty juicy. Yeah. Ed kind of goes after like, I mean, God bless, it's like pretty measured, but he like goes, not goes after, but he like talks about how Julia Roberts kind of killed the first incarnation of Shakespeare in love. She was supposed to be in it. And then he, you know, went into legal stuff with Harvey over Shakespeare.

He got the credit, you know, obviously. He's on stage. Harvey tries to like nudge him out of recognition. And so there's all, we won't spoil it. There's a whole protracted. I mean, it's a big part of the book. Yeah, that's fantastic. He really rips into, we were just talking to your past the future guest, Mitchell Beaupé, about this.

He, uh, he, uh, Zwick really goes in on Matthew Broderick on the set of glory, which is so good. It's great. Not only just Broderick, but Broderick's mom. No way. Wow. really really good like and also but like but like kind of politely you know like it's a yeah it feels it feels honest it doesn't feel like he's like yeah it feels like he's like hey this is what happened and it's so it's anyway my story about harrison four presenting best picture at that year's oscars

and i know i've told it on this podcast before but for you guys um uh that was my freshman year in college so we're in the dorms uh watching it just in my dorm room by myself and of course It's late, and we're getting into Best Picture, and Harrison Ford comes out to present Best Picture, and the fire alarm goes off. And what had happened was some idiot opened a bag of popcorn too close to the smoke detector. But, of course, nobody knew that. So the fire alarms are going off, and Ford is coming out to present Best Picture, and whatever, the RAs are coming down and making sure that everybody's getting out of the rooms. and I'm just like literally just like, no, I got to, I got to see. And Harrison Ford just goes like, Shakespeare in Love.

And they're like, got to go. And so I like leave like as they're like walking up to the stage. So I knew that Shakespeare and Love had won. But I like, and then we were outside in like, you know, Buffalo March or whatever for like an hour. And it was so late at night. And I remember being like, I have no way to react to this now. I'm just like outside. So funny.

Yeah. Memories. Yep, exactly. Exactly. There you go. Good Oscar origin stories, though. I like this. So you guys are adjacent to one another.

You're 96 and 97. Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of what I thought. You know what we've never heard? We've heard so many different stories. Chris, I don't think we've ever heard in 1995 Oscars. We've heard 94. We've heard 96, 97, 98.

You've never heard a Braveheart. I don't know if we've ever gotten the Braveheart year activated me as an Oscar fan. Who one best director for Braveheart? Nobody, right? Right. No, absolutely not. No, directed itself.

The director of flight risk who doesn't exist. I, could I tell you, the, anytime I see the flight risk trailer and it's like from the director of. In my head, I'm like, who, though? So, yeah. Is that still coming out this month in January? Yeah, in a couple weeks, yeah, as we recorded. I just saw that trailer for the first time, and I just have to say,

Porto for Grace, but also what? Can I ask you what is the thing? I think it looks just dumb enough that I want to see it. I'm not happy about it. I'm not happy that I'm going to see it, but I'm going to see it. Do y'all need a pile? But here's my question. Here's my question.

Is this the first Mark Wahlberg is the villain movie? It is, right? No, fear. Since fear. Well, fear. Okay, fear, fear, fear. But I mean, since he was A-list star Mark Wahlberg, I guess you could interpret that departed any way you want to.

Right. But ultimately, No, he's not. Yeah, yeah, I'm saying ultimately. No, he's like, he's like kind of the only, you know, whatever. He's triumphant in the end. He's the, yeah. No, no, I know.

I'm just saying you could, you could spin that however you want. But I think this is the first, right, out and out, Mark Wahlberg is the villain. He's got, he's got Ed Norton's Bob Dylan movie, hairline. He's got the Pete Seeger. Yeah, I don't know. I never saw Arthur the King, so I'm not a completest. Oh, true. I miss full am.

I also missed Arthur. The King. So this is the, now Walberg is just far enough long in his career that he has to start taking villain roles because he can't be the hero every time. Is that what we're saying? Well, I think if Mel, if Mel asks, he should. Oh, okay. He respects.

A couple Catholics, just, you know, doing their thing. A couple good human beings just wanting to make a movie together. A couple totally cool Catholic. Normal guys. Yep, yep, yep, absolutely. Poor Michelle Dockery, speaking of. Poor Michelle Dockery. Yeah.

What is Michelle Dockery doing there? I mean, she's got to do something. She's trying to lay in this plane, Chris. She's trying to lay in this plane. I'm sure she's still got Doughton Abbey money keeping her warm. There is another down to happen. I was going to say, they made another one, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the thing is coming out like this summer or something. I think our good, I believe our good, our friend Alessandro Novol is in it, I think. Is in the, yes. Yeah, really. We were lucky enough to speak with him. And he. Alessandro who, wait, was he part of the brutalist, a group that got the segment? nomination?

Yeah, I believe so. Yeah, I believe so. I'm always on the lookout for who's getting left out of things, so. The Devil's Own, though, you mentioned... Speaking of Catholics. Speaking of Catholicism, canonical Catholicism, the devil's own, you mentioned that you feel you're going to have positive things to say about it. I think the bones of this movie are...

The bones of this movie are good and 90s thriller entertaining. Yeah. It's just like when you know about what was going on behind the scenes, everything you watch in this movie makes total sense. Yeah, I mean, it is, it is a series. I mean, when you know it, it is a series of compromises. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think it is a great. Yeah, it is a great. indicator of you know where studios were at that year with stars with development and you know for good and ill mostly ill in terms of just kind of and you know what we'll get into it of like what what was sacrificed yeah you know for quote unquote entertainment and obviously entertainment was sacrificed right which you know right is is the ultimate hate when they do that right right when they sacrifice right right right right A complete and satisfying narrative. You know, because you're watching it. You're like, this should be great, right? To the Oscar buzz of it all, right? Which, you know, nominated for, you know, 12 monkeys, you know, the fugitive is four years before this.

Like, these are people. The director of all the presidents. Yeah. I mean, you're definitely like, if it's not coming out in March when they're making it, right, you're like. Well, and if it's, if the movie had turned out better, I imagine it doesn't open in That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean, yeah, if it's a 96, you know, winter 96 release as opposed to, right, my thing with the devil zone is, I would that bad movies were like this now, you know what I mean?

Well, yeah, we deserve to have bad movies that are like this. We deserve to have, like, this, this should be the low bar. Yes, right. We deserve to have movies that, like, they fall apart because we have too many A-list stars to have to cater to in a movie. Too many people, too many, like, people who could open a movie that, you know, you can't feed all the mouths. Like, to have these kind of problems would be amazing. Like, treat Williams' six build? Are you kidding me? Truly.

Like, get serious. Like, I will kill for that. Also, I got to say, looking at the poster. One of the great Abba coded posters of all time where one face, face and forward, one face, face in the side, it's Tony Collette and Rachel Griffiths and Muriel's wedding. It's, you know, it's It's persona. It is persona. You're right.

Exactly. Yes. They just fade into each other's bang. A great title that basically makes no sense. Yeah. I keep trying, I keep rolling it around in my head. So I did a little research, right? Is it a longer saying than they chopped it down to this?

No. So it's an old idiom that, you know, means something that's difficult. So you could. Approach it as that of like just conflict, right? I think the movie intends it to be directed towards Brad Pitt's character. I needed to have somebody in the movie say it in context. So I would know like whether something bad happens and someone says like, I, I see you got the devil's own with you here.

Oh, you got the devil's own in you. Yeah, yeah. You got the devil's own in your eyes or something. Like I don't even like an affable nickname that they give Brad Pitt or something. Right. Here's my thing. How does the guy at the beginning who says, talking about Frankie Moguire. He's killed 20. Frankie, you know, he's killed 20 cops.

Why is he not? Sorry to listeners in Ireland? No, I'm doing it all episodes. Blake an apology. We've offended our Irish listeners so many times. This showed up in their feed and they're like, well, I'm not listening to that. Look, just know this. This is happening. So just buckle up. All right? It's like that scene in Thunderbolts. No, I'm kidding. But, but, um, no, but when the guy at the beginning is like,

Frankie Mogari, he's killed all these people. why did he not be like he's truly the devil's own right like something something we need it we need it cut to the title or something you know yeah the other thing I'll say this they cut to the cranberries that's why it's not better than that you know what I mean like and I think it truly is it this is exactly the kind of movie that should speak its title so that we can stand and applaud for it Chris you mentioned the bangs though that on the poster there's I knew you were going to want to talk about Bradson's bang well you can't not because the movie opens with obviously the flag of young Frankie. Great casting, though. That kid looks like he's going to grow up to be Brad Pitt. Yeah. On the fishing boat with his da and they're, you know, they're fishing. And they climb the like hundred steps to their little moss covered stone little cabin.

And it's so idyllic and it's so lovely. And the mom has been making dinner and they're both. They'll sit down to it. And then the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. British break-in and they, or whatever, whoever, the, the loyalists or whatever, break in, they shoot his dad, they freeze frame on this kid's haunted face. And then it goes to this, like, very, very close up of, like, a newspaper photo. And all you can see are the very noticeable wispy bangs of someone. And I'm like, I know those bangs.

I slowly pans out. And it's that photo that someone climbed into Brad Pitt's tree and took a picture of it. That's Gwyneth. That's Gwyneth's man, Brad. Were they still together at this point? Were they working out? Oh, dude, no, because in that newsweek article, which is right before the movie came out,

because he's on the set of seven years in Tibet. They ask him about Gwyneth. They're like, is it hard being away from Gwyneth while you're filming, you know? Because that's when they had the same haircut. Right. Well, they were the two ones, when he was doing. That one, yeah, that one red carpet where they both showed up wearing the exact same hair cut. What a moment in time.

And like, and like very similar clothes. clothes if I recall it was like very like hey so what's up we good or yeah he was he had a more plunging neckline than she did I think in that look like he had like the very open collar kind of a thing yeah it was a whole thing oh oh bradley yes so excited to be talking about this movie nothing gets me more fired up than 90s middle brow like well and you mentioned like it's like the it's the the Irish isms just one on top it's like it's like carry gold porn it is kind of like the whole thing is carry Gold coded. You're totally right. Well, as somebody who grew up in, I'm always, I always say I'm less Irish than it seems because I, I'm like a quarter Irish, but I grew up in a very Irish community.

Well, me too. I come from a lineage of Irish American cops. Well, see, and there you go. Of course, yeah, everybody's got a cop in the family. The neighborhood that I grew up in had the joke is like there's a church, a bar, and a funeral home on every corner. And that's like, so close to actually being true, like literally true. And, and so, like, the idea of, like, yes, it's a little silly to, like, have the people bust out the, like, you know, the drum and the, and the, you know, whatever, loot at the, at the party. But, like, you go to places and, like, there's Irish dancers. You know what I mean? It's not just, like, people don't start spontaneously, like, dancing a reel. But, like, people will, like, have the local Irish dance company, like, come to, like, put a, put on a performance. Or like the girls at the church should do the thing.

Irish people are not as excited to be Irish as Irish Americans are. You know what I mean? It's like that is a hundred percent true. Yes. Yep. But like I have heard, you know, you hear all the songs, whiskey in the jar and fucking. Sure. Oh, God.

The parting glass. Exactly. Exactly. The, the wild rover, all of them. You know what I mean? You know what? It all of it reminds me of that great scene from the, other guys when Will Ferrell's at the bar

and they're all just singing that sad hour's song. They're full of rich history. Oh, God, such a good movie. All right. Let's move along to the plot description because we will get into the substance of the movie. But before we do that, Joe, would you like to talk about our Patreon? I absolutely will. You, listeners, if you're not already signed up for This Had Oscar Buzz Patreon, you really should.

We call it This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent, Brilliant. we, for $5 a month, we bring you two full-length episodes per month at minimum. One of those episodes on the first Friday of every month, we call an exception, which is a movie that fits the usual This Had Oscar Buzz Rubric of Great Oscar Expectations, Disappointing Results, even though those disappointing results in this case mean a couple of nominations here or there. So these are the movies we can't do on Flagship This Had Oscar Buzz, but we're sneaking him in here. Earlier this month,

you got one of our faves, the Phantom of the Opera, with guest Natalie Walker. Oh, man, yes. We've been waiting to talk about, I've been waiting to talk about Phantom of the opera forever. It was always the one that vexed to me that we couldn't do it on main feed. We've had

episodes on everything from House of Gucci to Molly's game, the lovely bones, Charlie Wilson's War. We've done Australia with our friend Katie Rich. We've done Knives Out with our friend Jorge Molina, Madonna's WE, Cameron Crow's Vanilla Sky, just so many really, really interesting movies to dig into. We have no shortage of further movies, so don't

you worry, we've got plenty. Second bonus episode of every month on the third Friday of the month will be an excursion episode. So for those, we talk about not movies specifically, but things in the nooks and crannies around the movie. like EW fall movie previews or old award shows, or very recently we talked about the movie line issue from 1998 where Jennifer Lopez talked shit about all of the other actresses in Hollywood. This week, you are getting the second annual, this at Oscar Buzz superlatives episode. This is our year-end pre- Oscars award show.

And for that, we pull together all the little odds. and ends and burnt bits of different award shows that nobody else offers, the Grulsh People's Choice Award and the NBR Freedom of Expression Award and... The Cannes Prize of the Youth. Exactly. Anything that sounds silly, we're going to give out those awards for the films of 2004. So cannot recommend that highly enough.

So if you are not subscribed, you're not going to get to hear that. And what an awful fate that would be. So go over to patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz and sign up today. The Devils on. The Devils on. Oh, The Devils on. Directed by Alan J. Pula. Flawless.

Written by Deep Inhale. I did not get the ands correctly to say who wrote with. Kevin Juree, Vincent Patrick, and David Aaron Cohen are the credited writers. I believe Kevin Juree is the one. who also gets the story credit. There's also documented but uncredited rewrites done by Robert

Mark Kamen and Terry George. Yes, that Terry George. Here's a credit. What do you think Terry George thought of this movie when he saw in theaters? They didn't take any of my note. He's just like furiously always tapping at a keyboard

or a typewriter on the set of this movie with a gun to his head. Starring Harry Harrison Ford, Brad Pitt, Trette Williams, Margaret Collin, Natasha McLone, Ruben Blades, George Hurd, Mitchell Ryan, and Julia Stiles. Motion Picture opened wide March 26, 1997. Dan and Connor, as our guests, you are charged with doing the 60-second plot description, though. We're wilding out this episode. We've got two guests for, I believe, the very first time.

Wow, really. Chris, I have to give you a little bit of shit for Trette Williams because it is Treat Williams, and I have to just throw it. Chris was in it. He was in the zone. I know, I know. But I'm just, I have to. I must. I, his friends call him Trent.

I do not understand what the question is, and I won't acknowledge it. We, me. Daniel, I am to understand you are taking over the 60 second plot. Me and Connor conferred and I'm going to take this one. I feel very, we had a conclave. We had a conclave. You guys know, I'm a big fan of the show. As you know, it's an honor to be on.

I'm very excited to do it. I'm confident. I don't think, I might not hit 60, but. Nobody does. I feel, if you hit 60, I think you will be the first actual under 60 seconds. In years. I'm going to try. In a while.

I'm going to try. Does anybody have a stopwatch ready? I got, I got you. I got it. Hell, yeah. All right, Dan, if you are ready, your 60 second plot description for the devil own starts now. Brad Pitt stars as IRA member Rory Devaney, aka the wanted Frankie McGuire. After a botched

assassination attempt in Ireland, Frankie slash Rory lands in New York City and is offered a place to say by a corrupt judge, the modest home of cop Tom O'Mara, played by Harrison Ford. As Frankie facilitates the purchase of missiles from Billy Burke, Treat Williams, RIP, Thomas forced to confront his own morality after his longtime partner, Eddie Rubin Blades, shoots and kills a fleeing suspect in the back. A home invasion ordered by Billy Burke after a forced delay in payment for the missiles causes Tom to suspect Rory might not be. In fact, Rory, spoilers, he isn't.

He's Frankie. Tom confronts Frankie, who delivers a tragic monologue with a perfect Irish accent. Eddie emerges to help Tom arrest Frankie, but Frankie escapes killing Eddie in the process. Tom chooses to try and save Frankie, despite all of this, what a weirdly good cop. We'll get into it. Frankie killed Billy Burke and attempts to his ultimate escape back to the island with Frankie, missiles via boat. A last Tom catches up with him on the boat And a shootout occurs.

Frankie dies peacefully on the sea as he remembers his long last. Wow. Two second. Close. That's incredible. It's incredible. It's because you stopped to say R. I know.

It's true. It's true. But you know what? Let me just say something. Treat deserved it. So I do not regret it. All right. Yeah, more like snack.

Yeah. More like handsome, handsome will you? RIP. When we say we want as a little treat. That's always. He was arguably a big treat. Yeah. We love treat.

I love that you made a note to say that we're going to talk about what a weirdly good cop. Oh. It's, Can I tell you something? It occupies most of my thoughts about this movie. Yeah. It's a really, because you can tell kind of that that's the most interesting part of the movie that got gutted in the turbulent. Well, maybe.

That's just my. assumption but like it feels like there's maybe a more interesting moral quandary that was in the what's interesting definitely so here's what's interesting right like that that part of the movie is the part that harrison ford added of course that obviously that brad pitt was mad about because i think a lot of the frankie mcguire character kind of suffered right in now all of a sudden we have to have this right where it's a plot about being a good cop yeah and he is like he is if every cop was Romero, we'd be okay, right? Like, if every cop was like...

Acab except Tom Omerer. But seriously, like, he is very... This is a man who clearly, like, is concerned about the decisions he makes and, you know, and you watch it and you're like, my God, like, that would be nice, right? You're like... Well, I will say one thing about the subplot of that whole or side plot, I guess we'll call it, that I think is a good bit of subtext in a movie that has very little. Is that, like, I like that Harrison Ford's a beat cop at, like, 60 or however he's supposed to be.

Well, you get the impression. He's a sergeant. You get the impression his forthrightedness has prevented him. Right. He's kind of got, like, the Sean Connery in untouchable racism, right? Where it's like, he's the only not corrupt cop. So he's just like, where is he supposed to be a beat cop? Like, what is in New York?

But, like, where? Because, like, this is kind of a sticking. A what borough. because like because one of the things about this movie like I think they live in maybe Queens or maybe I assume they lived in like Jersey yeah I assume they lived in like yeah they lived in like not a caucus but like copland okay because that would make a little bit more sense I guess if it's New Jersey because this movie does kind of bypass a lot of what I think what I imagine would be you know New York angles to the IRA thing that would be a lot of lot more, it would be a lot more than just sort of like treat Williams and this one judge having an interest in IRA politics happening. Like there's so much to, if, you know, I imagine just there would be pressure from on high from like, you know, Irish benevolent associations and,

you know, the police union and city hall and like all this sort of stuff. If, you know, and even still just like the proximity to New York, I just like, there's a whole. you know the machine I also just the other part that occupies so much in my mind is like they are going to they're going to get on that boat

with the missiles and just take it back to my little friend as they like sail up it's like a question too that his buddy that Frank's buddy raises early in the movie he's like what is this is a stupid idea and then they're just going to fucking shoot at us

and kill us. And they, like, never really solve that. There's a cut shot in the trailer that never makes it into the movie of treat Williams, like, putting the one missile, like the shoulder mounted missile, like, putting it on his shoulder and testing it out in what looks to be like a desert environment. So, like, I don't know what, what got cut or what, like, but like, certainly there was more to it. But I imagine that, yes, like, the idea is they're supposed to be just, like, sail across the Atlantic. you know, drift on up to Belfast or whatever and have Brad Pitt just, like, shoot this shoulder-mounted

because they don't even talk about like a, and it could be, I don't know, some, again, maybe this was part of like the more Brad Pitt-centered version of the movie or something. But like, it does feel like there should be a whole montage where they're like, oh, no, we're going to put the missiles in the boxes and then over the missiles we're going to put bottles of liquor or some, right? Yeah.

Some, you know, they're going to consider. seal themselves as something else, right? Like, and that never even And the idea of the beginning is like, we need these things to shoot down the helicopters because the helicopters are what's allowing the English government to get one over on us. And that's what we need. So it initially seems like they're going to just be like smuggling these weapons into

the country so that like they can have them at their various outposts and whatnot. And that becomes later on this idea of like, you know, the, the ship's sailing to Troy or whatever, and we're just going to attack by sea on our little tugboat or whatever. Tremendously entertaining to imagine that, to imagine what's going to go on. Yeah, the politics of it are slightly intriguing, and then it really never gets sort of followed up on. I think the Jorn character is endlessly fascinating.

I kind of want to know, like, what is the life of this middleman judge who sort of has a, has a, has a, has a, has a, has a, has a finger in the pot of the IRA and one of the local. And like, how often does he do this like bringing in IRA folk to have them like lie low in the basements of, of cops? And, um, he played a character in my beloved sneakers who was a sort of former Soviet, you know, attache or whatever, who is, um, yeah, a contact for Robert Redford's character. And that's a, up getting shot fairly early in that movie. But I've always, I know he's like huge, obviously a huge Tony winning theater actor. But I most seem just like, oh, right. It's that guy from Sneakers. It's the sneakers. It's the sneakers rush.

Right. Yeah, it's tricky because like even the judge, like every character in this movie, even Eddie. Right. Is it Blatties or Blades? It's Blades. Against all possible inclinations. Well, he said, so he always says it's Blades, but he doesn't mind if people say Blades, right? That's always what he said, but he pronounces it.

He pronounced it. I'll say Blades then. So, but no, but even like every character in this movie is more interesting than Harrison Ford. Yes. And it's, that's like a huge problem. Eddie, the worst cop who's ever lived, who's just makes bad decisions constantly. It's also crazy that like random, we mentioned it before, a very, very. similar thing with random

hearts two years later where they like add in a whole thing where like Harrison Ford is a cop with the problem with a former you know and it's like Harrison just kind of that was a thing I mean God bless him he was like

you know you think he didn't get it right in devil's own so he was like I didn't get it right at random hearts no that's my point you think he just got to like he just kept trying to keep going for it look these are Harrison Ford movies I Look, I, I defend Sabrina. I defend the devil's own.

I defend random hearts. Like, nobody does that. It's only me. That's fine. You're the only person I've ever heard, like, we should have had you on the random hearts episode. Initiate a conversation to me about random hearts. Like, that's, that's, I'm the only person alive who I wrote the piece for, um, letterbox.

Mitchell was lovely enough to, I wrote a piece about the kind of forgotten movies of the 1999, which, you know, quote unquote, you know, the best year. The best year ever. Yeah. and one of the ten movies is random hearts and even as I was writing I was like this is such a stretch but I love writing it is it's the kind of thing though because this movie I think is as similar in a way of like like you were saying before Joe like this movie and I think that's why revisiting this movie I'm like yeah you know it's not that bad because it's just like it is still so much better it goes down so much easier than like so much other shit. made it in this level. It's two incredible movie stars having a bunch of scenes together where they're just great, great, you know.

I mean, being shot, being shot by one of the best people to ever hold a movie camera. Literally, it's worth it alone for the scene where Margaret Cullen's like, or Margaret Cullen is like, is, uh, is like, we need milk and they, you know. Great. Yeah. Harrison Ford takes Brad Pitt with him, stops by at the local bar. Oh. And they get into a pool match with like an Italian American. And it's like, my whole family lineage is playing pool against each other.

It's like, I love it. It's like the Italian side of the Irish side. And the comedic levels of anti-Irish sentiment being thrown at Brad Pitt by that Italian guy in the bar is incredible. But it's such a great. But it's such a great. I will say this is where you see the movie. It could have been because it's totally relatable in New York calling somebody a Mick, blah, blah, blah. Sure.

You would never, you would roll off your back. and like he makes a car bomb joke right which even in New York even in 97 you'd think okay whatever but to Brad Pitt you can see he's like really fighting getting actually offended because for him it's a real thing right but this this this Italian guy doesn't give a shit he doesn't even think about it right and it's like actually a good scene you know it's like you know you understand they're beginning to bond it's like good writing it's good directing It's good acting. And it's a bit of like an unexplored angle a little bit that they kind of touch on in a few places, which is, I mean, that's what the line, you know, you keep repeating.

This is not an American story. Oh, my God. But, like, that's kind of an angle had they, like, pressed more on it that, you know, this idea that like these Americans who, you know. It's play acting. It's, it's exactly. Like, they don't know what they've not, they haven't lived it. So even the judge, even the, even the. guy at the bar even the you know tom with his moral sort of self-righteousness it's easy for all of these

people to take these stances because they don't know um and they have and maybe if the yeah and maybe if the movie had taken that my culture is not your costume sentiment that you were kind of talking right right right if the movie almost folded it added into it and acknowledged it like there's the part at dinner where they have corn beef and cabbage and he's like i've never had it you know what i mean And so there's elements of that in this. It's just not really ever capitalized. But the movie itself kind of perpetuates this culture as costume thing. And not to just dogg on Brad Pitt and the accent, which I think maybe the notoriousness of him having a bad Irish dialect in this movie is a little overblower.

I agree. I don't think it's that. Well, let's just say this, right? Let's just say this really quickly. There are three infamous Americans doing bad Irish accents. in the 90s, right? Famously. It is Tom Cruise in far and away.

Yes. It is Richard Gere and the Jackal. Yes. Which is the worst one, which is the worst one by a mile. By a country. Because Cruz and Pitt, cruise and Pitt at least commit. But the best one without question is Brad Pitt.

Because Brad Pitt is in the ballpark. Like he is true, you know, it's too sing-songy. There's too much lilt. It's all the usual criticisms. And Tom Cruise, it's like cartoonish. It works better than Richard Gere. It's not even, I mean, I can't even begin. You do kind of question with Brad Pitt if he wasn't, you know, so livid throughout the whole filming of this movie.

And, you know, there wasn't so much hostility going on behind the scenes. Maybe he could have had a more focused delivery of it. But at worst, it feels like high school theater. They also, exactly. Dialect acting, but it's not like fully embarrassing. Directly from this to do an Austrian accent in seven years in Tibet, which is significantly worse. Seven years in Tibet, I believe a single digits this had Oscar was like that. And then goes to do Mito Black where he does Jamaican patois.

So the one, two, three of those. The patois is the worst. Well, yes. So I wrote this one down. Well, there's also the fact that like there's a bad line reading in the train. Again, like, the trailer, you know, perpetuates so much in this. But there's another line that he says when he's being confronted by Harrison Ford. And the line is, when I was eight, this man came into my house and killed my dad.

And Brad Pitt says, when I was ight, this man came into my heist, killed me da. And it's just a lot of, what? It's just a lot of accent. It's not an American story. It's an Irish story. It is an Irish story. It's an Irish. I would also argue this isn't a movie that's particularly great at explaining the troubles or, you know.

Well, it's kind of a side stacks a lot of it. As Brad says, if you're not confused, you're not part of it. You don't know what's going on. Yeah. Well, and the movie got a lot of criticism for that, you know. Yeah. And I think there's a certain level that it's like it's kind of borrowing or maybe even assuming that audiences have seen movies like in the name of the father. Sure.

Well, and we should say this is a weird time because this was a very popular. In the 90s, there were a lot of movies. Ron in it's right around this time. Like, there were a lot of movies that were cashing in on this conflict. And what's weird. Michael Collins, try it at least. Yeah. You know, but you're saying that Jim Sheridan movies obviously directly.

There's plenty of it. The Patriot Games with Harrison Ford. Yeah. Yeah. Which is 92. So by the time this movie comes out, the Good Friday agreements are happening. Right, right. Things are starting to look good.

And all of a sudden this movie comes around being like, you know, throwing a grenade. Like, Ronan in this movie, Clinton is kind of getting to the end of it, right? They're kind of figuring it out. So it's, you know, really a weird moment, too, culturally for it, you know. Did you read the thing where Princess Diana got in trouble for taking the boys to see this movie? Did I read it, dude? I remember my mother. I don't remember it.

I remember my mom being conflicted about it. Wow. She was kind of like, oh, yeah, Harry is young. It is rated R. like he is young he's probably too young that's but i think they have actual or at least this used to be the case over in the uk that like there's a 12 rating and there's a 15 and if you're under 15 you can't go to the under 15 movie yeah that's what it was it was it was i believe i was i was reading about it it was william was i believe it was was 15 and i think harry was like

12. And I think Princess Dye was like, hey, can he go to, is that okay? And people kind of got wind that she had asked for it. She had to like get special, like she had to get them to bend the rules for her. But then it was also the fact that like, you know, to see this movie that is sympathetic to the IRA. So politically it was, it was tricky. She apologized for it. I mean, she apologized. She was like, I didn't know the content of the, you know, of the movie. I was saying to Chris the other day about how I'm watching the FX miniseries say nothing. I just started it recently, which is about the troubles and quite good through two episodes at least. But what...

I love the book. And one of the things, especially in this sort of like current moment, not to like in this current moment the discussion, but like about the Irish story is, is there's the hope that like this can be a little bit of like a Trojan horse for people to sort of. sort of get them to see a sympathetic side for, say, the Palestinians in Gaza or say, you know, other sort of any occupied population that is not white? I was thinking about that the whole time while watching the devil's game. Yeah. That you sort of Trojan horse this thing was just like, hey, look at it. It's not not the end of the time to kill, actually. But it's, you know, it's just like now imagine that

they're white. But this idea that like, oh, you can. have this story about inoccupied people and you can understand why they would be fighting back and why what's going on is going on. And it's just like, okay, now take that understanding and move it over the globe a little bit to this area. And like maybe then you have a little bit of an empathy shift or a sympathy shift or something. Well, it's why it's so weird that the title of the movie is the devil's own. Because the movie is like, is clearly sympathetic and is you know, trying to frame at least specifically the troubles

that way. So it is really like a movie that earns the title devil's own would be way more mealy-mouthed about the whole thing, right? Like it would be way more like, like you would see Brad Pitt commit like some heinous carnage in the beginning which I think was in the movie, right? Was in the original

screenplay. I think there was something a lot worse. A sense of this is, you know, the shit this guy's doing. Like he bombs a school. or something, women, and children have died. You know, which is like, look, look, is that happened.

Probably a more clear-eyed look at this whole thing and not to say that this guy obviously didn't have his reasons, which the movie could still really explore, but like, yeah, when I was mentioning earlier, you know, a series of compromises, that's one of them. It's like Brad Pitt, you know, you're getting the scene where Julius Stad's like,

oh, do you have a crush on him? Oh, my gosh. Like, Brad Pitt, he's handsome. Like, there's nothing just like Brad Pitt. He's living in their house. There's nothing wrong. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with those scenes, right? But, like, he's being nice with the young daughter, right? It's like, there are these clear moments in the film that are, like, directly from Tom Rothman, right?

Or whoever is running the studio. Where it's just like, you know, we need Brad Pitt to have the blonde hair and talk to the daughter and be nice. And, like, we're not going to show him killing any women. Oh, my God, God, God forbid, you know, which I understand, I guess, in theory, but for what this. But it makes for a far less interesting movie. Of course. especially with all of the other turmoil that's happening and the kind of tug of war over who would have narrative dominance over the story and then that kind of throws into turmoil what are the themes of this movie so like how can you develop this kind of moral gray area narrative that's trying to find empathy throughout but also kind of kind of moral gray area narrative that's trying to find empathy throughout but also kind of conflict, and it's just very kind of at sea.

Well, and the most sort of, like, morally complex and gray area it gets to is the end, where all of a sudden you're trying to figure out how this movie is going to find a way out once Brad Pitt kills Ruben Blades, right? Once Brad Pitt kills the cop. And then all of a sudden, it's like, then, you know, you can't, you know, he can't be forgiven because he's killed somebody. But Harrison Ford has to hold on to his own morality while also, you know, having acknowledged that he empathizes with Brad Pitt.

He can't, you know, kill Brad. You can't have Harrison Ford kill Brad Pitt to get out of this unless it's this, like, perfectly calibrated. They both reached for the gun. You know, they both shot each other at the exact same time. This is our secret Chicago. It really kind of is. But they both shoot each other at literally the exact same instance.

So, like, there's absolutely no, you know, that ledger doesn't tip in any way. And it just feels like, okay, but all of this is about how do we get out of this movie where, you know, an IRA guy kills a cop. But, like, you had a moral quandary already. And you didn't need to add all of this layer of, like, good cop business to this, to, to make it your movie. Well, it begs the question, you know, if it's not Harrison Ford, you know, if it is Richard Gere, for example, as the cop, you know, just to, you know, so not an A. American accent, Richard Gere. Yeah, yeah, totally American accent.

You know, A minus, you know. Richard Gere giving a patois. Yeah. He's like, sister, sister. He's doing, he's doing a patois. He's doing Swiss and he's. No, he goes, he's like, he goes to, he's like, he's like, you know, I know what you're going to. Have you read, have you read the Dalai Lama's works?

He's like, gives it to a breath of one. This is fun fact. But he also does the tap. Such a fun fact. Speaking of, I mean, I, you would, I don't think could ever get to this movie on the set, Oscar Buzz, but Red Corner is this year. Sure. Oh, yeah. Which is Richard Gears like passion.

China movie, right? Which is like China, his China is bad movie. Yes. Which was like banned in China, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he is, I don't know if he is still forbidden. Probably. Oh, no, he is, he is.

Yeah. Yeah, deeply so. Yeah. Richard Gear is a deeply, deeply interesting Hollywood star to dig it. Dude, he's in Rhapsody in August. Like, that guy is a fascinating guy. Like, one day, I'm sure you'll, I can't even remember if you've done, I'm sure you've done Richard Gear movies on that, you know.

We've done Somersby. I know that. What are our other gears? You could do Mr. Jones is definitely, could be an Oscar Bush movie. Yeah. Who's the other person in Mr. Jones? Lena Olin. Lina Olin.

Olin, sure. I always think of intersection, the movie he did with Sharon Stone and Lolita de Vivided it. Yeah. My, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, my, like, oh, Canada is about to be sure.

One hundred percent. Yeah. Dan, I just have to say, like, our friendship in my mind is us just constantly simultaneously saying Lina Oll. Lina Olin. Yeah. Who's that in the movie?

Lina Olin. Co-star of Hollywood Homicide. Wow. Get out of here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So have you ever. done a gear episode uh yeah actually that we did with with julie me that was okay my mom came on

because she loves richard gear we talked about a lot of things we talked about kind of the whole career what were the movies that you chose well we that was early early early on so i think with my mom we talked i talked about like yanks which is the john slessinger movie which is very good actually deeply beside we talked about blood brothers the robber mulligan movie also very early uh uh gear and then i think we like moved on we talked about the kim basinger movies final analysis final analysis i remember very much yeah you know and um he's got a million b sides i mean richard gear first night first night first night oh my god there's so many first night is a good it's a funny sneaky good julia ormond yeah you know who actually gives a lovely performance

in first night Sean Conner yeah is very weirdly understated like dramatic performance by yeah it's like a really kind of lovely performance but yeah no i mean but um point point being if if it's not the wattage of harrison ford yes if gear just takes the role and says hey love the scripts i'm happy to be second fiddle to brad pitt there's no question it's a better movie right because right all respect to harrison ford but like we're saying it's a more coherent character yeah it's just not very interesting he's he's an irish american cop i mean yeah you know you know you know it's just not you know his quandry is not as interesting as anybody else's i mean it's i know you kind of need him to be irish american but i was thinking like if this were like a seven

reunion it would like if you had like a morgan freeman and he's probably a little too old for the like i'm not this movie made me think of um seven in the fact that I literally wrote down, I said, Brad Pitt holds a gun in a movie as well as anybody like holds a gun. He's got that great sort of like two-handed like grip. Two-hand. Yes. And I was like, oh, and then reminded me of him as Mills in seven. He does. Yeah, he, yeah, man, he holds the gun great in seven. Yeah. Can't be denied. Cannot be denied. Yeah. One person is we're going to say if we don't, if they don't have to be specifically Irish. I thought of James Con to as like James Conn might have been an interesting. Yeah, get a little gnarly in there. Comes a horseman reunion with him and Pecula a little. Oh, there we go. That's a good one. I need to see comes a horseman.

I've never seen it. When I was doing my Pecula research, I was like, this sounds like a movie I would like. Here's the thing with Pakula, if we want to get into Pekula for a second. So this is his last movie like we talked about. Yeah. Pacula is one of our great directors. American director kind of looks like a college professor, right? Just very kind of a smart, soft-spoken guy, famously so.

If you kind of read. There's an amazing. Dick Cavett episode called The Directors on Dick Cavett where Sidney Lumet, Pekula, young Ivan Reitman, the woman who directed men from back in the 80s. And one other person I can't think of, oh, Sidney Pollock, Cindy Pollock. They are all on the show together. Yeah. And Becula, if you watch the episode, Pekula, like, just comes away looking like the smartest person.

Because he just kind of waits his turn. he like hits his joints he's like very smart and his movies feel like that and and and they're deliberate and they're not fast yeah right like yeah i think as the years went on that pace became a bit of a problem in the mtv generation because like even presumed innocent which was a hit is slow like paula takes his time he's a fan of a dissolve well when you watch a movie like consenting adults you can see how it's a problem yeah no exactly exactly right yeah So, so, and even like, yeah, the pacing of that movie is an absolute nightmare, but like, but even in this movie and even the Pelican brief, like, even if you watch the openings of his films, they're like fade up, we're getting establishing shots, we're getting credits, we're taking our time. We're going to give you a theme. We're going to tell you. Like, you're not get, you know, you're, that's three minutes of like, yeah, hey guys, welcome to the theater. That just doesn't happen anymore, you know. And so part of the comfortability we're talking about, if we're being honest, I think. for me at least you know you watch the pelican brief you're getting pelicans for three minutes

and you know what you did establishing shots of pelicans and let me tell you something yeah I could have used a couple more minutes uh it's incredibly common you're like thank you Alan I'm happy to be here how long are those shots of pelicans not breathing long pretty long and I think the problem with the devil zone you know along with many things is also you're 97 you know he he's a man out of time. Post-pulp fiction. Yeah, I think by the time this movie comes out, you know, Harrison Ford is a star at a time. God bless. Brad Pitt wanted to do something kind of harder, faster, you know, more controversial. And I think it's just Ford had worked with Pekul before. You know, you have things that just get in the way and all of a sudden, you know,

you have this movie, which, you know, I, you know, I think there's good things, but ultimately it is a failure, you know, which is a shame. One of those good things is definitely Natasha McGill. Yeah. Oh, Natasha. Really just kind of a, kind of a person who would just be in movies and you'd just be like, hell yeah. Like, just to, like, have her around. Where is she in her at this point? Yeah, the Roan.

She's in Roanin, another IRA type of thing. Incredible in Ronan. And, like, we're used to incredible. I was thinking, too, like, she had this pocket in, like, the basically late 90s to 2000. Yeah, it's like six years. And she was, like, working with, like, great directors. Like, she's working with McCool. as she's working with Peter Weir, right?

She's working with Soderberg and Frankenheimer, like, really kind of, you know, she used to- It's her second feature film after surviving Picasso. Wow. Merchant Ivory. Right. Yeah. That's wild.

You know, surviving Picasso, because I think she, I don't know if she was a model, but she'd been around, and then surviving, yeah, surviving Pegasso, which is kind of a, we actually, I was lucky enough to interview, um, uh, James Ivory, uh, last year. and I briefly mentioned those two, the Jefferson and Paris surviving Picasso movies, which he like ardently defends, right? He's very much kind of like, look, people didn't like him because we were kind of telling them their heroes were flawed, you know,

which I don't know if that's the only reason people didn't like those movies, but I do understand where he's coming from, where it's like well before people were really in a very wide cultural manifest being like, oh yeah, Picasso was this way and, you know, he was kind of they were doing that and i think there's something interesting about that but yeah mckellons in and then she's in right then she's in a like connor said a slew of these movies where she's kind of like you know just like used her really great effect like it's not a huge role but like i think she it's the kind of thing that like if you're tom rothman and you're giving these notes presumably

we're making that up but like if you're giving the notes of like we need to soften brad pitt right you you kind of don't need to do that because i think she does a lot of your work for you in that regard right like the fact that they have a romance together which maybe presumably would have been in more of the movie in like the earlier iterations of it or something um anyway she's great i just wanted to shout out one when we end up doing surviving Picasso on this show you guys have to come back and be our guest that's probably hell yeah second of all does anybody here know what that move what who wrote the book that that movie was based on?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's a absolutely wild. Late 90s, Ariana Huffington before she became a Democrat when she was still, the Republican on politically incorrect with Bill Maher was a different time. Yeah, she was like a common Marguess. She was on like, kind of all the time. I think they did, there was one, uh, the, um, the, the conventions for one of the elections. I want to say like 96 were like, Bill Maher.

had correspondents go to the conventions, and it was her as the Republican and Al Franken as the Democrat. My God. My God. That guy has been around for a long time. Forever. Yeah. All right.

Yeah, we're doing surviving Picasso with you guys. It's decided. All right. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. What else did I want to talk about? They're literally so... There's still a little more we could say about Pakula.

I would say Pacula has directed a lot of acting nominations. And also, I think we think of him as a thriller director, and that's not necessarily true. I think a lot of the heavy lifting there is, you know, that's how he ends his career, but it's also that paranoia trilogy of Peralax View, all the presidents men. He does the sterile cuckoo, you know, he does, you know, starting over, which is a movie I do not like, but I love Joe Clayburn. Yeah, it's a flawed movie, Candy Bergen gets nominated. it's like, you know, it is a hit, it's a James Brooks script, I think, or yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's like, or maybe is it James Brooks or is it, it might be Barry Levinson. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it's James Brooks. It's James Brooks. Okay, okay. So, so, so, yeah, he had, we, we briefly talked about this with Blake. He has that, he has a reputation as anuteur, but like, comes a horseman, for example. Is this, like, slow anti-Western movie with Khan? and Jane Fonda

and Robar and Robards and it's like deeply you know at odds with you know something like the Parallax view right and and I think you know he does a few movies with Fonda he does Rollover with her and Chris

Christopherson that's like a failed finance movie have you guys seen Rollover? Rollover is a movie that exists only as a poster to me because the poster is crazy it's a movie on paper though that seems like it should be pretty good.

Like you're like, oh, this is the dude who made the Great Paranoia Trilogy. This is like paranoid Wall Street. Okay. And it's just not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of these weekends, I'm going to do the Jane Fonda horse trilogy and watch

comes a horseman, the electric horseman, and they shoot horses, don't they? And the same. Oh, my God. Because I've seen none of them. And every single time, don't, I would not end with they shoot horses. I've heard.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's not literally the feel good movie of the whatever. Yeah. Yeah. You should end with the electric horse. Because that movie rock. Every time I see the title comes a horseman.

I initially think it's the electric horseman. And then I find out that I could not be more wrong. The electric horseman is just like a perfect pseudo-romantic comedy. Uh-huh. Because it's not like a full romance, if I'm remembering. That's a part. Yeah, that's just like these are just. Yeah.

These are people that just have great chemistry together, even when they're not sharing the screen. It's basically like, he's a drunk. Gotcha. You know, it's almost, it's almost, it's like a little. Stars Borny. Okay. All right. You know, it's like...

Crazy Heart, a little bad Blake crazy heart kind of thing? Yes, deeply so. Except for the light up costume. That's the only thing I know about the electric horseman is that on popular, the Ryan Murphy series popular, that Leslie Grossman's character, Mary Cherry, wore a homecoming dress that lit up as an homage to the electric horse. The electric horseman. Yeah, it was a hit.

Yeah, it was a big hit. And then, of course, Sophie's choice, too, which is not something I feel like gets a tribute to Pecula, even though I think that's a really well-done movie. It's like we only talk about Meryl in that movie. Sophie's choice only getting one acting nomination always kind of like throws me. That is insane. It's kind of surprising that neither Klein nor McNickle get nominated. And you know what?

And I love Klein's like one of my favorite actors. McNigle should have been nominated. Yeah. Because McNickle is like the guy, he's like the key, the story is being told to McNickle. Yeah. And I feel like so often those perform. performances never get nominated, like the reactionary performance. And I guess I understand why, but he's great in that movie, actually.

And yeah, Pekula was just a great, he was a great director of actors, you know, and even watching Devil's Own, you can see it because for all of the criticism we're giving the Ford character, Ford is good in the movie. Like, when Ford has that internal struggle about he's, you know, he, you know, Ruben Blades makes this fatal error, right? And shoots this. poor young man. There's a kind of

a lovely scene in a car where Ford is crying and Bradford's kind of trying to console him but conflicted about it obviously. Yeah. And Ford's great. I mean, Ford is really good. For as much as the problem in the movie is Ford's character, like it doesn't take away from like how good he is and how good he and Pitt

are together in their scenes. And when Ford speaks nowadays about how he's proud of this movie and then you watch you can understand why. Because you're like yeah he was extending himself like this is a man who yeah you know the fugitive you know one of the great blockbusters ever made certainly but like you know it's pretty down the middle for ford you know there's there's sure good moments but like you know when he's jack ryan he's jack ryan

he's the great american you know this is an extension he's really doing something and it's like there are those scenes like the one where he confronts pit in the basement um which by the way kudos to this movie for putting out a very realistic semi-finished basement bedroom. We're like, that is not in any way bigger than it should be or like better appointed than it should be. Like my brother. With like a Sarchant Pepper poster, right? My brother lived, moved his bedroom into our basement at one point and like that's the kind of bedroom you have. I was going to say, if you live across the river in Jersey, that's that basement.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Where did Gordon Willis put the lights? That's the sequel to Visions of Light that I want to see is just asking Gordon Willis about how he lit the basement and Devil's Zone. But in that scene, Ford has that, what I think of as like the 90s Harrison Ford look, where he's just sort of like, did you bring this into my house? And then he sort of like has that like very stern look. And it's very like, did you switch the samples? Did you switch the promasic? Like, you know, that kind of a thing.

it's it's very um 90s 90s forward disappointed father you know that's the other thing is like there is the sense of surrogate father thing that the movie doesn't maybe doesn't do enough with and i'm saying that as somebody who like if they overdid it i'd be like we get it he needs a father figure yeah but like i don't know if they do necessarily enough with that um yeah the pool scene you could almost use one more like bonding scene but once again it's like what are you choosing to right you know what are you choosing to focus on you know what does tom care about what is tom's actual like you know what and he give the movie gives him too many sort of focal points he cares you giving a good cop joke he sure does this is also a movie that at one point in the movie

they literally ship every female character out to margaret colin's sister's house and they're like that's enough for that and it will be just Natasha McElan's the only the only woman who survives that it's time for the men yeah finish the business yeah like very deep this is a time for men that was good that William Mason should have shown up at the end of this movie as like Jerry Adams or something like I was thinking that too like it I feel like and I actually I think Treat Williams is fine in this movie with like you know whatever he has to do But part of me was like, wouldn't it be kind of fun if they got Liam Michael Collins to be like the arms dealer? Like, that would have kind of ripped. We can't do Michael Collins for flagship the set Oscar buzz because it got a cinematography nomination. Was it cinematography and costumes? What was it? I think cinematography and score.

Okay. But that could be a good exceptions episode to do at some point because that definitely was a movie that they definitely were like, this is going to be a best picture winner perhaps. Like, they had big, and is a movie that, as I understand it, there is, there is a lot of pride for it, like, in, like, across the list, you know, the ocean. Across the pond. Yeah, yeah. Like, like, it is, you know, Michael Collins is a national hero. You know what I mean? And I do think there's a, and obviously Liam Neeson, you know, to some degree now.

It's a national hero. Yeah. You know, there is a lot of love there. But what's funny is Liam Neeson and Harrison Ford five years from now are going to start together in K-19. Oh, K-19. As we all know With more great accents I do love how Liam, if memory serves,

just doesn't even really do it. Liam is kind of like, Harrison, I'm going to let you go. I'm going to let you do your thing. No, he does the thing that he's done in every movie since where he's just like, no, I'm just going to sound like movies. Right, right. Yeah, the Sean Connery thing of like, no, no, no, I'm just going to do my thing. If you want to talk Russian, you do what you think.

Ross Hall-Goole has a particular set of skills. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Michael Collins did get a. original score and cinematography nominated. Neil Jordan movie, which we should also say, especially like Oscar and movies about The Troubles, The Crying Game, too. Yeah. That's the thing people get, people get, you know, kind of understandably hung up on the parts

of that movie that are not really about the troubles, but like that undergirds the whole movie. And then there's that whole extended intro, which is like just kind of an amazing movie in and of itself, the stuff with Stephen Ray and Forrest Whitaker and all that. A hundred percent, yeah. Now, I know you guys have done a Neil Jordan beside. You know what? We haven't. Really? Because I would

love to talk. That'd be a juicy one to do it, I feel like. Yeah. Literally like in the spirits, breakfast on Pluto, like, uh, the brave one. My God. I just watched. We've covered a couple. We've covered a couple. We got to do the brave one. We do have to do the Brave one. We did a Jody episode. We talked about the Brave one.

Sure. Get Joe Reed on for the Neil Jordan episode just a talked about by Zantium. I do love by Zantium. That is true. We did talk, Joseph, what you have to say about by Zantam? We did a Sorcerer Ronan B-Side episode where we talked about by Zantam. But favorably, we like it.

I just recently watched this past Halloween for spooky season. I watched The Company of Wolves, which is a. That's a crazy movie. Very interesting movie, especially if you've seen Labyrinth as many times as I've seen Labyrinth. It's like dark labyrinth kind of in a lot of ways. I have not seen it. I'll have to, I'm going to add that. Neil George, the whole, I mean, this is to be discussed, obviously.

The whole Neil Jordan pivots to Hollywood thing. He does the, you know, in the spirits, I believe that's what it's called. And then with Peter O'Toole and Liam Neeson.

And then We're No Angels that with that crazy remake with Demi. I did that for my Demi podcast with Bilga Abiri. We talked about Weirno Angels. Did Bilga like it? Yeah.

Bilga, true to his sort of custom, I think, was kinder to it than most people maybe would be. De Niro, Penn, Demi. It's the most interesting thing about Weirno Angels is that they filmed it in Vancouver,

but they sort of built this little, like, border town. They, like, they, like, built these kind of elaborate sets of this, like, you know, this little town right on the border. It's for a failure of a movie and for a movie that, like, does not give to me anything interesting to do. It's kind of interesting. It was kind of interesting to talk about, so the listeners go subscribe to. to me podcast you can listen to me and bill go talk about that yeah oh my god oh yeah yeah so much there yeah neil jordan is a wealth of oh my god of like yeah did you guys do breakfast on pluto

we did we have done breakfast on Pluto yeah i must have listened to it yeah is that our only neil jordan chris that we've done possibly i think so because we haven't done the brave one we've never done on dean or oh i love on dean um yeah the good thief i guess we could do i love the good I love a lot of Neil Jordan, actually. I love the good thief, actually. Yeah, that's a great. And that a lot of his 90s stuff is like interview the vampire got nominations and Michael Collins got nominations.

Interview with the vampire, we keep threatening to do as an exception episode on the Patreon. Well, that's the nomination. That was the Christmas Slater supporting actor now. Yeah. Yes. That's the one we all remember. No, because they never give it to the guy who gets the story called. For great, for great convertible driving?

No, that was Antonio Banderas's Oscar. He won for that. So actually you can't do it on that. That would make for a great, like, hyper-specific letterboxed list is movies where, you know, movies where people get told a story. Life of Pie. Life of Pie, I think of all the time. Rave's Ball and that movie. Chas Almondary and usual suspects.

Oh, that's like the iconic one. Yeah. Yeah. Chaz. Oh, my God. Yeah. Seriously. There's a lot.

I mean, that's a, honestly, that would be worth, like, going deep into that's, there's a lot. There's a lot. There's a lot of those performances. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. My God.

What's his face in Matthew Reese? Although Matthew Reese is sort of he gets, that's a little different. That's sort of the more than the Fred Rogers movie. John Pittsburgh represent. Would you like to be my neighbor? Is that the name of that movie? No, it's. Beautiful day in the neighborhood is the Ariel Heller movie.

Great film. Great movie. Great movie. Great movie. Love that movie. Do you remember? Okay. Can we talk about the scene where Brad Pitt and the. Natasha McElton have their date, sort of, on the, by the, by the fire drum on the, on the docks or whatever.

And all of a sudden they start dancing to music that is playing. Where is that music coming from? Because I think it is diogenic, but like, or else what are they dancing to? But also it's just sort of, it's coming from the angels, Jill's. I, I assumed, okay, so I assumed it was kind of like a, I assumed it was meant to be like. like that scene in witness where it's like a car door is open

like a lot of it was on or something it's not his Alexa or whatever that he just sort of just like Alexa play that hemlo I like thank you there's that scene gets sort of they get sort of interrupted by his friend his friend who gets

fully beheaded in this movie which I was not expecting I had seen this movie surprisingly rather violent movie yes yes you think that this type of middle Brow Thriller is, you know, mildly violent, like, just enough to be in our reading. And also, I wrote this down, Treat Williams has a very specific, he calls him a hog Irish prick, which I was like, what is that mean?

I don't even know, but it feels so horrible. You're like, horrible slur, my God. My prince of the city. What's, what's Treat is, treat just like a garden variety weapons dealer? Is that what's? I think, yeah, he's like, he's like, he's an art. Because he doesn't have any sort of like, you know, ideological tie to any of this, right? He's just sort of a middleman.

That's probably where what the scene in the desert is because he's probably testing out. He's selling shit to Tony Stark or whatever the fuck. Yeah, right, right. So let me, this is such, I feel like this is the right group to recall this with. So I, I don't know if any of you had this. Connor, I feel like you must have. Sure. When I was of, this would have been right around the time this movie came out.

I would, you know, kids listening back in the day, they would have event TV movies that they would advertise. And I so vividly remember T&T would have these like, you know, movies for, you know, on Saturday nights or whatever. Yeah. And I would get. Samaheik in The Hunchback. I would get deeply excited. I would like get deeply excited. I remember there was like atomic train with Roblo.

Amazing. I was like excited for. And I watched. I watched it. Of course. Yeah. I taped it, you know? Yeah.

And I remember so vividly a movie that I could not wait to watch, and I did watch that was on T&T, starring Treat Williams. It was called 36 Hours to Die. And it was literally like, this guy does this thing. And all of a sudden, he's on the run with his family. And I was like 10, I don't know. And I was like, there is nothing more important than pressing play, Channel 37, T&T, Saturday at 8 o'clock watching 36 hours to die.

starring Treat Williams, and every time I see Treat or I watch them in a movie, I think of two things. I think of Everwood. God bless. Of course. And I think of 36 hours to die. So the 36 hours to die. I always go to the Phantom and Deep Rising. That's like my... First thing I ever saw Treat Williams in, by the way, was the late shift on HBO. Speaking of TV movies, where he played, well, Michael Ovitz, the super agent Mike Ovitz on the late shift. So 36 hours to die per IMDB, the poster, the tagline says, when you're fighting. Fighting for your life, not even time is on your side.

Holy shit. There are three actors who are above the title. It is from the writer of Saving Private Ryan. That's the other thing that they have here. Oh, okay. Go on. Three actors above the title. Dan, can you remember the other two besides William?

It's not Christine Lottie, right? It's not Christine Lottie. Who is it? Is it Dana Delaney? Who is it? Kim Cattral. Oh, wow. Okay.

And then the other one is a character actor. Oh, I can never tell you. Who is it? Mr. Saul Rubenek. Oh, I would never know. He must be the bad guy. He must be the bad guy. He must love Saul Rubinac. In control, of course.

Now it's vivid. Wait, I'm reading the, the cast list is great. Carol O'Connor as Jack Balls O'Malley. Oh, God. Yeah, you know balls. Everybody knows balls. Balls O'Malley. God bless.

Joe, how close are we to a treat Williams? Oh, this is only our, I literally look this up. because I was so first of all petrified that we were going to have to quickly write a six timers. We have, I think this is our third, Treat Williams. This is...

Because we had two in our last May miniseries. And those were our first two. We had the Ritz. We had Hair. Oh, the Ridd. And then Devil's Own is our third. The Ritz is a great time. Great movie.

This is our... Treat is insane. In the Ritz. The Mickey Mouse Boy. Oh, my God. Treat Williams is so, is such a kick in that. movie, and a movie where a lot of people are a kick in that movie. Like, treat is beautiful.

This is our fifth Brad Pitt movie. So our next Brad Pitt movie will be our sixth. Wait, can you, what are the, what are the other brats? Meet Joe Black, which we did in those are episode number 35. I can't eat. Seven years in Tibet. Burn after reading. The counselor.

And now the devil's known. Wow. This is our third Harrison Ford, but it is our first one since, like, it's our first one in years. We did Random Hearts was episode 53, then Morning Glory was episode 63. And we haven't done any Harrison Ford movies until now. Wow. Harris. I think our Random Hearts episode is like top three Chris and Joe are surly. I've listened to it. We were not, we were not happy that I don't remember that, but now I want to go back and listen to it. Morning Glory is fun because Morning Glory is there's a good movie poking out of Morning Glory.

Oh, I like, yeah, I like, I like Morning Glory. There's a good movie in there somewhere. He has lovely chemistry with Rachel McAdams, I think. Absolutely. And Keaton. I mean, they let Keaton be very ridiculous in a way that I enjoy. But yeah, I think he and McAdams are really fun together. The scene where he starts making the ads.

I'll never forget, I'll, I'll, I'll never forget, Jeff Goldblum's drive-by of Fairly Dickinson. And when he's like, Fairly Dickinson, more like, fairly ridiculous. You're like, Jesus. Wait, why did somebody talk about Fairly Dickinson? Because she went to Fairly Dickinson. Is that her alma mater in that movie? Yeah, and so she's like getting rejected from everywhere. Incredible.

And like, she, her resume gets to Jeff Goldblum. And he's like, Fairly Dickinson, more, he's like holding the glasses, more like fairly ridiculous. She's like, oh, Jeffrey, Jeff. Super cut of people in movies Sliding various colleges No, but the way Harrison Ford says That's how you make the eggs

Fluffy is one of my favorite Harrison Ford line readings. Oh, Harrison. Oh, my God. Wow, so one more to six, Bradley's. Yeah, which will it be? What would be a good... There's so many.

Legends of Fall definitely got nomination. Definitely did. That's definitely in exceptions, though, Because, like, that was, speaking of Edward's Wick, what does Zwick have to say about that one? He did not get along with Brad Pitt. Okay. Yeah. Maybe the problem was Edward Zwick at some point.

Yeah. No, I mean, he, but he's very, like, like, like, he takes a lot of responsibility. He'll tell you if it's, like, you know what I mean? Sure. But I think, look, this is a weird time for Brad Pitt. Like, he gives that Newsweek, you know, we talked about it before, you know, that Newsweek. You know, that Newsweek article. is a nightmare.

I mean, he comes across like a guy who does not want to be a movie star. You know, like, he is like if you, I mean, that any quote you read in the Wikipedia where Brad, I mean, I mean, literally the quote, I'll read it. I have it up right here.

He literally goes, he goes, he's talking about the devil's own, he goes, maybe you know the story. We had no script. Well, we had a great script, but it got tossed for various reasons. To have to make something up as you go along. Jesus, what pressure. It was ridiculous.

It was the most irresponsible bit of filmmaking. If you can even call it that that I've ever seen, I couldn't believe it. I don't know why anyone would want to continue making that movie. We had nothing. The movie was the complete victim of this drowning studio head, Mark Canton, who said, I don't care. We're making it. I don't care what you have. Shoot something.

And this was in print before the movie came out. Back in the day, people said. People just said shit. said shit people just said shit and if you want to interpret it as like brad pitt didn't want to be a movie star then he spends the next two years burning off these like two attempts to cash in on like beautiful boy brad pitt right at seven years since about mitchell black and then he comes back and it's like new like new grubby brad where it's you know fight club and snatch where the two most like just like throw a bucket of dirt on him movies you know and i mean it does feel like

Brad Pitt being like, fuck it, I'm just going to do what I want to do, you know? And look, it works. I mean, obviously. You know what I mean? Like, you know. Have you done, would killing them softly qualified? Yes. Definitely. Yes. And we should.

Yeah. Because I think he's incredible in that movie. Oh, yeah. That would be a good sixth one. Yeah. There's, there's things about that movie that I find to be very, very frustrating. But there is like a core of greatness in that movie. Yeah. You know, the final monologue is now feels like. Yeah. I mean, like, it feels so right. to get, you know, but it feels so right about everything as to be, like, I mean, not prophetic. That's giving it too much credit, but certainly the right kind of cynical, you know.

Yeah. And what's cool is Andrew Dominic never did anything wrong ever. Never, ever, ever, ever editing after that. Wow, no other movies. The movie I always kind of twin the devil's own with in my mind. And the more I sort of dig into it, the more I'm like, well, that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. But is Spy Game, which he makes absolutely. after that sort of like now I love yeah yeah I'm like spy game is a tony scott movie and

tony scott and alan pacula could not be more different more different but it's the thing of it's brad pit opposite this sort of like screen legend well and and we should say go on dan well but but it never happens right the thing about spy game is brad pit is robert redford yes right like it would be like if kevin costner made a movie with gary cooper right right right It never, it never happens. It would be like if Harrison Ford made a movie with Robert Mitchell. You couldn't, yeah. Like, it just, that never happens ever, that never, ever happens.

It's so crazy that, like, that a movie got made where it was like, you know, Redford was still a star. Brad Pitt was at his peak. They made a movie together. It's insane. Like, it's, you know, now granted, he, you know, Brad Pitt had been in a river runs through it, which Redford directed, narrated. But he's not in it and whatever. He's not in it. Yeah.

But, I mean, that. At what? It would literally, it would be like if young McConaughey did a movie with Paul Newman. You know what I mean? It's like. Right. But Pitt's career takes a turn that Redford's never did, where Pitt sort of took this turn into playing these kind of character roles that Redford. Redford's turn was he turned into directing.

You know what I mean? And so Pitt turned into. Well, and Pitt has that great quote recently where he talked about being on the set of Troy, right? And he basically said, I felt like I was in the middle of. the frame too much. And that was kind of the last time he made a movie like that. Interesting. Interesting. Which, you know, I defend Troy, but he's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Spy game he makes only a few years before Troy. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But that one in Devil's Own. I always sort of in my head of just like, and one's like one's a spy movie and one's a, you know, cop and a and a terrorist kind of a movie. So like there's, there's similarities or whatever. But again, we used to just like, I'm going to, one of my New Year's

resolutions. I'm going to stop saying this too much. But, like, we really just did used to have movies like this. People who could just turn it on, man. It's like, yeah, it's really, I was thinking about that, like, just, yeah, to your point earlier, like, it, even in its barest bones, like, this movie is just appealing from, aesthetically. Yeah. Because you're just like, oh, look at these lovely people just with charm and charisma,

just talking to each other, like. Yeah. Can we briefly talk about the scene where Margaret Collin and Harrison Ford come home and the people are ransacking the house? Sure. The sort of like the centerpiece scene because I think that's, Pekula knows enough to know that like this scene has to hit hard in order to sort of, you know, turn the movie and to, you know, get everybody's sort of motivations and emotions primed for the end of the movie. It's incredibly well done. It is incredibly scary and like abrupt and violent.

And just like watching Harrison Ford get like thrown into like a cabinet full of like plates that come crashing down is jarring. Well, look, Bakul is good at this. They are going to go back to their house to have sex. Yes. Which is great. Yeah. We love. And it's teed up.

It's another movie star thing because it's teed up nicely by a scene that sort of ends on that note where you're like, yeah good for you guys right there like all the presumed innocent is this right where it's it's two things in your hand at the same time and and the and the the abrasiveness of the conflict of those two things in your head make it thrilling right like he's very good at that and like it what makes it scary is it's so vulnerable right it's like these two older people who have kids who are older not that old but older and oh my god we they're not home you you're gonna retire let's go have let's go fool around oh my god are you kidding me and then it's like the safe place is not safe right well and it's incredible yeah i i'm not going to say that this movie does super well by

hits female characters but i do like the fact that like they do just in time for margaret colin to be in distress in that movie where like in that scene where she the fact that they have her they don't they don't not only sort of grab her and point a gun at her but I'm struck by the fact that like they have her by her hair like at that last one yeah and it's just so and it's like a shotgun to her head like it's also that like she will like not have a head right but the fact that they have those two scenes immediately preceding it the one in the in the in the bar the restaurant or wherever that where he's telling her that he's going to retire and she sort of she starts to try to talk him out of it and then she says the thing about I was the only girl in my Irish Catholic neighborhood who didn't want to marry a cup. And then they have the scene in the car where, you know, she's sort of, she just, it's, that great thing where, like, she's like, you know, the kids, even before I think she says the kids won't be home. She's like, well, I don't want to go home either. And she sort of, like, turns and looks at him. And I was just like, you get it, Margaret Collin. Like,

yeah. And, like, they both look great. She's like, Jeff Goldmoving is fantastic. Exactly right. Exactly right. Margaret Collin. Now, I always say, I only remember her really for two movies. which is three men and a baby and Independence Day. But now, honestly, it's three because the devil's own now I'm going to chalk up to that. Anyway, what else? Should we talk a little bit about Gordon Willis? I feel like we talked about Gordon Willis when we did the Sandbox episode, Joe. We did.

But it really does remain striking when you look at the resume of all the movies he did in the 70s and never got an Oscar nomination. for those movies. He's Oscar nominated for Woody Allen Zilig and then for Godfather Part 3 and he wins an honorary Oscar which like thank God for that. But Devil Zone's also his last movie along with Bakula's

last movie. He basically retires. He doesn't, he passes away in 2014 but yeah this is he did Malice the Harold Becker movie which kind of sits in a similar place as Devil Zone like a flawed beautiful film. You know that's very much kind of it has the famous

now, Alec Baldwin, I am God monologue. Be Still My Heart, Aaron Sorkin, one of Aaron Sorkin's greatest monologues. Young Aaron Sorkin. Godfather Part 3, presumed innocent. Bright likes Big City, which is the James Bridges movie based on the J. Macanerney book. It's kind of also a flawed movie, The Pickup Artist. He likes the Money Pit, which is like, I don't know if you guys have seen the Money Pit. Money Pit at least has some really memorable shots into it.

Shelly Long, Tom Hanks. Yep, yeah. Broadway, Danny Rose, one of my favorite, on movies. Penny's from heaven is like, I don't know if you've done that movie. That's a masterpiece that was like lambasted when it came out. Yeah,

that's a massive bomb at the time. Huge bomb. That was like a Steve Martin like retreats back into comedy. Is that a musical or am I remembering it wrong? Yeah, it's a musical. It's Herbert Ross. It's Steve Martin, Bernard,

Bernard Peters, Christopher Walk, and Jessica Harper. It's a great movie. Wow. It is. But it was like just ignored and, you know, made fun of, yeah. But, yeah, he's, is Broadway, Danny Rose black and white, or am I? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, all right. I've never seen that one.

That's the one he's the, like, he's the Earth while agent, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, God, like, and then did presumed innocent. That's a movie. I, I'm pretty sure I never saw because it was just, I was just too young to even, like, try and be precocious and watch, you know, the adult thriller. But I remember that being a thing. I remember I found out about the twist. So then I was like, well, sure. But I just watched the TV series Presumed Innocent recently,

which I thought was really, really good. Sure. And now I want to go back and watch the movie. Yeah, it's a great. It's a great movie. And we should say, it's different. It's different. It's different. Yeah. It's not the same thing. Yeah, it is different. Decidedly different. But yeah, I mean, the most interesting, one of the interesting

things about presumed innocent, it is that the end of the Harrison Ford gets a little weird phase, right? Because he does, you know, witness, mosquito coast. Um, he does frantic and he does, um, presumed innocent basically within five years. And those are all like Harrison Ford is a little weird. Yeah. And then he kind of, and then he, then he goes Jack Ryan, you know. Yep. Yep. And it kind of, he reverts a little bit. And then does like what lies beneath and, you know, that kind of thing. Back to, to Gordon Willis for like half a second, though, because I haven't

seen this movie, but I'm always curious to hear if anybody has. Has anybody here seen Windows, the movie he directed, that was supposed to be, like, horrible? I'm always meant to see it. I'm always a little bit curious about it. And Talia Shire is the star of it. Talia Shire's the lead. Yeah. That would be another good

letterbox list of cinematographers, like Lost Souls, for example, with, uh, that's the transcendence. Mother's instinct. Mother's instinct. Yeah, it's recent. And then transcendence, the Wally Fister. And then, uh,

transcendence. It's not good. Yeah. And then who, wait, who did? It's a, it's, uh, it's a, it's a Spielberg's Janush. Janusz did. Yeah. Yonis.

We watched Lussels is. Oh, bad. Deeply bad. Has the iconic car, car clock ending. Yes. Yeah. Windows is not only Talia Shire, it's also Elizabeth Ashley. So I may have to see that.

No, I've always meant to watch it written by Barry Siegel. I've always wanted to watch that movie. Yeah. And there's plenty. There's plenty of. And it's so fascinating, the idea of the cinematographer, right, who makes, who directs a movie and then maybe it doesn't work. There's a fascinating, right? It's interesting, you know, so I think that's well worth exploring.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he, look, he invented, I mean, I don't think it's hyperbole to say he invented a way to sculpt shadows. I mean, I don't know. Yes. You know, I don't know that anybody did it the way he did it before he did it. I don't know. You know, Conrad Hall, kind of, but not the same.

Yeah. Right. The first film class I ever took in college, sort of, as I think I said this before, how, like, my school didn't have a film program, but my communication studies department offered one film class each semester. So I took, uh, as everyone that was offered. And so the very first one, um, the very first thing we watched was Visions of Light, which is the documentary about cinematographers.

Yeah. And for somebody who. loved movies, but really didn't know anything about, like, what went into making movies. It's an incredible education. And you really do, there's some incredible stories and anecdotes and whatever, but that movie really gives you an appreciation for, in particular, I think, Gordon Willis, Haskell Wexler, Starraro. Starraro, Conrad Hall. Like, those kind of are like The movie I always think of, which is kind of an underrated Bertolucci movie, is Starraro shot The Sheltering Sky. A movie I keep wanting to watch.

Which is not, and Chris, if you've seen it, I wonder how you feel about it. It's not some great, I think Debra It Winger got nominated. It's not a great movie, but it is like one of the most beautiful movies ever made. I feel similar. Yeah, it's that. I have my favorite cinematographer is John Toll And I always reference I do think Legends of the Fall

Is the most beautiful movie ever made Like I think it is the most beautiful movie I've ever seen And if it's not that, it's the thin red line And John Toll shot both of those, right? Dan, I think you were the person who I was talking to When we were like, we pinpointed The Most Beautiful Brad Pitt he ever looked on film Is when he tips the cowboy hat

That has some like rain on it or whatever Yeah, he's like, he's like herding the cattle. It's that moment on film. He puts the hat and you're like, yeah. Oh, that's the most beautiful person. Yep. This is the most beautiful a person has ever looked at this year of time. Yeah.

I would wager it's either that or speaking of the spy game connection. It's the final shot of the natural. Oh, sure. Which is literally just magic hour, just bathing. Caleb B. Chanel. And Kate. Yep, like filmed in Buffalo, New York. Yeah, yeah.

candy shop? Is Parkside Candy still there? You know? It is. Yes. Oh, my God. I love that. That's one of my favorite quotes. Glenn Close was like, the only reason I deserve an Oscar nomination is Caleb D. Chanel for that movie. Well, she got nominated for literally standing

up at a distance. Yeah, right. The light in the baseball studio. Yep, yep. She gets a special. Put a special on Glenn. So funny. Oh, man. Yeah. Good old Gordon Willis, the best. Incredible.

Anything else we want to dig into. I feel like we've, like, hit all the, you know, all the sweet- Are there any other terrible Irish accents? I did send a text to you guys. Before I sent the thing about the Sarah font and the credits, the James Horner score at the end of this movie, like, for as much as the end of the movie is I'm disappointed because I feel like this is sort of what it's come to.

But Horner is literally just, like, just throwing it all. That's the thing. It's like, it's, it's the best people, some of the best people who have ever done things in their respective departments like doing their worst. Yeah. Like, like, like, is still miles better than anybody else's best. Like, yeah, it's crazy. It's true. Um, yeah, I'm going through my notes and to see if there's anything.

Uh, we're in the police business, not the revenge business. Like, it's lines like that where it's just like, guys, you judge, I, what's funny is I kind of. I just, and look, I mean, we've, like, I think we've, obviously the way, you know, we view cops in this country is different now than it was in 97, but I was like, I kept thinking like, even then I feel like the NYPD has like, there's no way people bought this then. There were already stories of the NYPD, like shooting unarmed people. The LA riots had happened. Like, it's. And I, I can understand that maybe the Tom Omera character is in conversation with all that, right? That's the whole point. Yeah. But it. It is like, it is just insane. Like, it is a little bit, it feels like even the people in the movie are kind of like, shut up, Tom.

Like, our, come on, buddy. Like, can we go talk about Brad Pitt again? Like, what's happening? Yeah. That whole, his whole family is so horny for Brad Pitt in this movie. It's kind of amazing. And also just like, well, obviously. Like, I was surprised when they were doing that scene of Julius Stiles banging on the bathroom door.

I know. That I was, like, I was surprised that, like, the punchline to that wasn't, like, Brad Pitt walking out of the back room and, like, the towel. She thinks she's yelling at her sister, but she's yelling at Brad Pitt. How did that not happen? I know. I'm going to be watching it today. I was like, oh, right, it's not even. Yeah.

I'm surrounded by crazy people in this house. You get a, you get a confirmation scene in this movie? A confirmation? I feel like you never. The Catholic spliner in me. There's nothing more Irish Catholic than a confirmation. Except for the fact that, like, they sort of, there's a part of. after the party after your confirmation mass is never that not not that big the big

the big party for you know the Catholics is the first communion party like that's the right that's the sort of equivalent yeah yeah it's what I always hit like Rob Matt Rob McEleney doesn't show up to the to the he's like in the background as a cousin right thing and is that true um yeah you could you could you could call oh I missed it I think he's credit I think he's credit that's like how you can see Bruce Willis in the courtroom in the verdict? Oh, yes. I remember... Can you? Yes, you can. I remember I've looked out for it and you can see him. You can see him. But that's the always thing whenever I talk to somebody who's Jewish and I'm like the difference...

Oh, so much better. Yeah. Well, because you get your bar mitzvah, your bat mitzvah, when you are at an age where you can really wild out with your friends. You get your first communion when you're literally like nine years old. Yeah, eight, nine years old. Rob McElwini has a name in this. Sorry. I don't mean. I don't mean. Oh, his character has a name? Rob McElheny is also in the final scene of Wonder Boys, which is a Pittsburgh shot masterpiece. Yeah. His name is Kevin, anyway. That would be an exception because, or no, but Bob Dylan won, though.

Right? Bob Dylan won the Oscar. Bob Dylan did win the Oscar. So you can't do it, right, because he won. Right, because he won. He won the Oscar. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Great movie, though. Fantastic. Wonder Boys. All right. Should we move into the. the IMDB game? Let's do it. Joe, would you like to explain the IMDB game?

I sure would. Every week we under episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress and try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice only performances, or non-acting credits, we will mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. how the hell are we going to do that it's a great i was curious who didn't connor you didn't give the plot description so you will get the choice of whether you want to give a clue first

guess first and then in which order the round robin goes yeah yeah and i guess we could like hop scotch oh yeah everybody just challenges who they want to challenge yeah yeah oh sure sure Sure. Okay. That sounds. All right. Yeah. I will let's see. Because I did pick a person while we were talking because I hadn't picked one. Good. So I will challenge Daniel. Well, no. Challenge one of them. Okay. All right. I will because let's keep it. Yeah. That's what's interesting. All right. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. So I will challenge Chris. So you challenge Chris, then Chris will challenge Dan. Yeah. Dan will challenge me and I will challenge Connor. See, there you go. That's perfect.

There we go. Here we go. All right. Connor to Chris. Okay. Who's your guy? So the person I have picked is a person in the cast of this movie. Okay.

One, Margaret Collin. Oh, God. Oh, my God. Excellent. He's so hard. I will say how much television is there only only one only one so which was kind of I thought sort of surprising um and now I'm like well she's done a ton of television but what so am I gonna guess that that is um I'm gonna guess that this is on her known for yeah okay three men and a baby wait no you're you were guessing devil's own yeah devil's own it's not oh sorry sorry sorry no it's not it's not Sorry. Oh, it's not. Okay. Three men and a baby.

No. All right. Give them the years. Okay. So, um, 1996. Okay. 2002. The one, the one, there's only one TV show on there. And it's from 99 to 2000. And then, and then 1986. 96 is Independence Day

Correct 99 to 2000 What would that have been Did the show run for Well reviewed on IMDB It's like It ran for 19 episodes per IMDB Which I think is accurate

So like one season Was this on HBO? It was on CBS Interesting It's got a title You're really speaking of Very similar to an Ed Zawick show Yeah

Which aired around the same time Around the exact same time I actually thought it was... So something like 30-something? Well, no, no, no. Edzowick did another show with... Yeah. Now I can't even think of her name,

but had a very similar title. It was more popular. Yeah, it was 30-something was early 90s, and this was late 90s. Okay. What was the other Ed's Wicks show? It won an Emmy. Sale Award.

Yeah. Won an Emmy for Seal Award. Oh. My grandmother used to watch this show. It's not Crossing Jordan. That's not Cila Ward. No, not Crossing Jordan. That's Jill Hennessy.

But the character name is in the title. No. Right? No, you're thinking of judging Amy. Different show. No. Maybe that's just how we titled television shows at that moment in time. So she's in this show.

with Seal Award. No, she's in the show that has the very, very similar title to the show with Seal Award. That was an Ed's Wicks. Yeah. It's like a phrase kind of. Yeah. The one that Margaret Collin was in, I remember, was a very sort of hyped TV show. There was a lot of, like, ads

during, like, the early NFL football season. Like, you could tell like they had a lot of faith in the show. It was kind of high concept. There's a Dennis Hayesbert in it. Dennis Hayesbert is in it. Um, pre-24 Dennis Hayesberg. Yeah. I have not full of these schools, I have not seen this show. Have either of you seen? No, never watched it, but I remember the fact of it. Like, it was very high concept. It was, I'll, you know, I'm going to read to the log line, because I still think it's going to be a challenge. The logline is, after a subway accident, a man awakens with his brain in a new body, but the successful experiment means he must give up his past and family. And that's Dennis Haysberg? No. Or that's like Tony Goldwyn. It starts as John Goodman, and then he wakes up in the body of. Eric Close. Now, Eric Close is like the most generic handsome man.

I have never heard of this before in my life. Yeah. It was nominated for a prime time. There you go. Well, hang on. Pivot to the, um, yeah. Knock the other three off the boy. So O2 is a movie where it's an Oscar nominee. It's an Oscar nominee. Okay. Has an actor that we talked at length about on this. Yes. One of the episodes is an actor. we talked redford no julie meccafave no julia meccafave oh uh gear yeah chicago she's not in chicago no oh right gear was in another award nominated movie yeah yeah oh unfaithful yes that's the second one she's in this she unfaithful's on her no she's just she plays joan unfaithful in it a great movie by a great director.

Yes. Now deceased director. Should have been Oscar nominated, but wasn't. It was sort of like kind of cult movie to some degree. It's part of the Criterion Collection now. I don't know if that would help. Ooh, 86. Comedy.

Kind of an iconic supporting performance. Yes. Yeah. Is this Crossing Delancey? No, good guess. No. It's more extreme. Yeah, more of an edge to it.

Oh. So, oh, wait, from a... Well, Joan Micklin Silver is not dead, so why did I guess that? Oh, what is this? How recently was it? The supporting actor who has since passed... Oh, the supporting actor has recently passed. It was his breakout kind of, like, he breaks the movie open.

And he kind of comes in. It's not blue velvet, is it? No. No. No. Lynch is still alive. Yeah. Yeah.

Oscar winning director. Had already won their Oscar at that point. Would win it a few years later. Is it Last Temptation of Christ? That's later. No. Comedy. It's like a, it is both has romance and comedy elements,

but I would hesitate to call it a romantic comedy, if that makes sense. Big 80s actress who then kind of was not a big 90s actress. wearing a wig on the on the poster oh my god has a famous kid has a famous kid daughter of a famous she's in the she's a that's right she's she's the middle uh spoke of a nepo of a nepo uh trilogy oh it's melanie griffith so it's what melany movie's in the criterion collection 86 am i it is in the criterion collection right i would believe oh it's something While? It is. Yeah. I think Mara Collin is like the friend at the beginning, I think.

I would believe it. Yeah. And then so you'll just have the show left, which I feel like the dealer's choice. You're never going to get the show. Yeah. Just show is saying phrases. Once and again is the seal award show. So just, oh, so is this time and again?

No, but you're exactly right. You're exactly right. You're time of my life. No, no. Not then, but. not time and time and now no now and again now and again now and again which can I tell you something

I'm going to find and watch now and again I bet you can find it I'm going to watch the pilot on YouTube crush all 19 episodes of now yeah perfect perfect sorry Chris I thought of no I will take it I will take so Chris gives to who to you to them to you to me okay yeah

I think you're going to have fun with this one Who else could I choose other than the first person nominated for an Oscar from a Pakula movie, but Liza Minnelli. Oh, why? Liza Manelli, there is one television show. It's not Arrested Development. Is it? Is it a rest of development? Oh, that's so rad.

That's so rad. That makes me so happy that it's honored. Lucille Ostero forever. It's so funny. She's only in like two episodes, I think. It's a kind of. 21 episodes. When the show came back, she was in a lot.

Oh, okay, okay, okay, yeah. All right, she's so great in that show. Okay, the vertigo. Oh, my God. Okay, so, all right, that's one. Okay, all right. So, cabaret has got to be there. Cabaret.

Yes. All right, so then, okay, Liza, wow. Cabaret, um, is the sterile cuckoo there? Sterile cuckoo is not there. Okay, okay, okay. Oh, man. All right. What are the other movies that Liza's even in?

My dear, dear Liza, there's not that many. Hmm, okay. Liza Minnelli. What else were you even in, my dear, my dear girl? This is what's funny about this game. You listen to the episodes and you're like, oh, dude, I would crush it. Now I'm here.

Spotlight burns bright. It does. It does. I feel like I'm, it's so. being so stereotypical. So maybe of the photos on Liza Minnelli's

IMDB page are from laughing for some reason. I'll guess I'll guess Liza with an E which I'm sure is wrong but you can

No. That is incorrect. Give me my ears for the two. So the remaining two Chris, well you do it. It's your.

1977 and 1981. Oh is it Okay, no. So it's not the Burt movie which that just occurred to me.

Rentic cop. I. Not that one. also a movie that only exists as a poster. 77 and 81. Okay, so just give me hints quickly. All right, so 77, huge director, huge flop from this director. But you love this movie.

Yeah, yeah. I love this movie. I also love this. Her and a really big star. One of the most famous movie songs ever, ever made. Somehow was not nominated for Bestor's No song. Wait, I love this movie. That is actually nuts.

That's crazy. you love this movie yeah how am we didn't we covered this director on our show and we did not cover this movie but if we ever did him again we probably would we have done this movie on this show what's the okay what's the 81 Oscar winner 81 Oscar winning comedy yeah but not in a major category no in a major category I'm thinking I was thinking of the other so what did it wins multiple Oscar winner right yeah yeah what did it win for Supporting actor and song Okay At least

All right Let me think about this Oh Oh oh oh oh oh Yeah just those two Okay For 81 Yeah

Yes It's Arthur It is Arthur Okay Okay And then okay Which means

Since the other one is 1977 The remaining title Is not Arthur 2 I was gonna say Yeah Oh God Wouldn't it be great

If like Sex in the City Two Was she was in She was in a relationship with the director of this movie when they were... I love this movie. Big bomb. Oh.

She's great in this movie. Of course. Right. And the song is... I can't wait for you to be wrong. No, no, no. And this song is, of course, was written for this movie, which people don't know. Yeah, New York, New York.

Yes. Yeah. Correct. Right. Of course. Great movie. Great movie. Wow.

Liza. God, I do love New York, New York. That movie is wild. Yes. Um, thank you. That was a great one. Okay. Liza, yes. Okay, I give. Okay. You give to me. So I, now, hopefully this is not one that was queued up, which I was a little afraid it would be, but, um, maybe we're okay. I did peak, or pick, peak, peak, I did pick, treat Williams. Oh, okay. Is that okay, Joe? Yeah. There's, may he rest. There is no television. Justice Forever would Now and Forever I know I would tell you

I'm a surprise So This is a wild It is wild but also Yeah it's wild But I do think you It's fun I have to imagine

Hair is one of them Hair's there Okay So that's at least helps I doubt the Ritz will be Even though it should be But I'll put that in my back pocket Treat Williams

In films Is tough Because I keep thinking of him in TV shows. Okay. Is the devil's own one of them? No, it is not. No.

I will say, just as like a, Connor mentioned two of these. Oh. As we talked, just as. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. And of course, I,

everything goes in one year and out. Right. I know. You're probably, when you're editing this, you're going to hear you mention. I'm just going to be like, God damn it.

I'm just going to say the writs and then I'll get the years. Yeah, okay. So the Ritz is not there. Yeah. The years, your years are, uh, 1998, 1996, and 1995. Wow. Is one of them like, I will, one, speaking of Pulp Fiction, one is like one of the, this was made after Pulp Fiction movies.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. In the vein of Pulp Fiction type. Is it like two days in the valley or something like that? Yeah, it's not that, but it's that, it's the 95 one is. Yes. Is sort of like that.

Very much so, yeah. Okay. All right. Is it like, oh. Is one of them a horror movie? Kind of. Yeah.

Yeah. You would call it that. Creature feature. Right. Bad? I don't. I like it. Well, I think people like it now,

but it was certain. not regarded at the time it's from a director you guys have brought up um i think you brought him up with mitchell actually um in regards to one movie in particular that this director made interesting years after this um that was also not well regarded but had denzil in it is that why we were talking about it no it was he wore a lot of leather in the movie and had a hat Zimdiesel? Um, no. No.

But, oh, he won a lot of leather in devil and a blue, uh, Don Cheadle. No, no, no,

no, this, this director of, of this, of the 1990s movie. Oh. He, the year after this movie,

he makes a, like, now beloved seminal classic. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. With a reclaimed

beloved movie star, uh, who spawned a franchise. Yeah. In 99, it begins. 99, yeah. The Matrix, no. No, no.

No. More traditional. A movie that was kind of buried in, not buried, because it was financially successful, but was initially seen as like, oh, this movie's going to be screwed because of Star Wars. Yes, yeah. It was a May release. Oh, okay. 99 big early summer releases were like Mystery Men or, or, or, you know, like, Mystery Men or, or, Or Hauston Powers or, um, born, no.

It's a remake of a classic. Yes. Oceans, no. Remake of a classic. They tried to remake it again, and it did not work. Also technically kind of a creature feature. Yep, yep, yep, yep. Oh, I feel like I'm going to sound so stupid.

People are going to be screaming at me. We can get you off this director. to try to get this movie because I don't know if you'll get it from the director anyway. Okay, all right. But it's a monster movie sort of, or a horror movie sort of,

creature, sort of. January release. Yeah, I was going to say, it's like, it's not like Pandora or it's not like, he is the lead. It's like him taking a swing

at being like the lead of a blockbuster kind of thing. Yeah, it's like, as soon as I hear the title, I'm going to be like right, because it's like, Um, it's not, uh, the, the Gator movie and it's not, um, all right, I'm going to think of the other ones. What are the other two again, 95 and 96?

So 96 is, they were remaking all of the old serials, you know, right? So like, yeah, in the 90s, they, you know, you know, you mentioned the Rocketeer earlier. Yes, yes. It's right in that pocket. It's in that pocket of these movies. Um, the shadow. Um, so close. Right there.

What's the next? The Phantom. Yeah, he's the villain in the Phantom. He's the villain in the Phantom. He's the villain in the Phantom. The Billy Zane. Billy Zane. Yeah.

Have any of us watched The Shadow as adults? No. Because I loved the Shadow as a kid. No, I definitely watched as a kid. I didn't. I've not watched it. It doesn't really. I mean, similarly, though, to Devil's own.

It doesn't work, but it's like fast. It's like the production design's incredible. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. All right. 95 is that is a Pulp Fiction. Paul Fiction, knockoff. It's not two days in the valley.

From the writer, Joe, from the writer of a movie, I know you love Beautiful Girls. Oh, interesting. The guy who wrote Beautiful Girls wrote this. Wrote this. It's got in in the title. It's a very long, ostentatious title. Things to do in Denver when you're dead.

Yes, of course. He plays, I always remember his character. He plays Critical Bill, right? He plays John Denver. Yeah. He plays a guy named Critical Bill who's like a psycho. And it's like such a name. that would be in a movie like that.

Critical bill. Yeah, totally. So that. All right. Things are doing Denver and your dad. All right. Last one, 98. We're back.

Here we are. Back where we are. Back where it began. There's a boat involved. There's a like a crew. Is it a ghost ship? No. No, but it's so close to go.

Ghost ship is actual ghosts. It has a title. It has a title that like could also be for other movies about boats. Like it doesn't speak directly to. Is it like something tied or like rising? Tide or... Deep Rising. Deep Rising.

Which I've never seen. Which, which, we should say Deep Rising has one of the all-time coolest endings. It's got a great way. Who directed Deep Rising? Stephen Summers. Steven Summers.

Steven Summers. So we should... Director of the Mummy. So Stephen Summers did the Junk of Book movie with Jason Scott Lee and then he did... There we go. Deep Rising. So can I spoil Deep Rising?

Do you care? No. Okay. At the end of Deep Rising, they survive the monster and the Deep Rising. They get to an island. and they're walking onto the island and it's like

it's like a monster island you can like it's like it's like the lost world island uh huh yeah the camera camera zooms out so it's like out of the furnace into the flames shake yeah there's like trees shaking and you hear like what would be like a king Kong roar so like if they did a sequel

it would be it's a very cool idea to end a movie you know but it's the most 1998 cast treat Williams Fomke Jansen Anthony held West Studi Jason Fleming Cliff Curtis Kevin J.

John Anzou, yeah. Kevin J. O'Connor was in a lot of his. Was this the same year that they did House on Haunted Hill, the remake of that? No, that's the next year. Here's what I always think of. This is the same year Peter Himes did The Relic. The Relic. Which is like

Creatures Feature in a music. Starring the Shadows. Penelope Ann Miller. Maybe the last big thing Penelope Ann Miller was in. Well, she's in, Joe, she's in Reagan. Sorry. Oh, no, Joe. All right, that was tough, but I got everything, right?

You got it. Yeah, you got it, you got it, you got it, but. Connor. For a treat? Yeah, Connor. See, now I'm a little scared. I didn't, I'm going last. So I went a little bit elliptical for this.

So the devil's own, um, uh, disappointment finished, um, the number 51 movie of 1997 at the box office. Um, the same year as another movie with a similar title. structure. The Devil's Advocate finished number 30 that you're in the box office. So better. One of the stars of the Devil's Advocate, we've done Keanu Reeves here before. We have done El Pacino. We have never done Ms. Connie Nielsen. So. Oh, I was hoping you were going to say that. Hell yeah. All movies, no animated, no voiceover. Oh, wow, Con. That's good. Okay. And I'm assuming Devil's Advocate is not one of the four? Or is it? It could be. Do you do assume nothing?

I'll make that. I'll make that my guess. It is not surprisingly. Oh, man. This is a good for. I love this. Okay. One of them, I think, has to be glad.

It is gladiator. Right. Okay. Gladiator. Um, okay. Connie. What up, girl. Danish queen.

Yeah. I was going to say. Um, I feel like she's, she's like the wife in something relatively recent um one of these we definitely did on the b side by the way one of these we definitely did on the set oscar pose oh god damn it okay all right so gladiators one of them devil's advocate is not um i can see her in a turtleneck as like a cop I mean, that's even one of them. In a movie.

Shit, what is it? She's got kind of like, almost like Sharon Stone hair sort of. Shit. This is actually, I mean, you don't get your hints yet, but this is deeply also Pulp Fiction adjacent in a lot of ways, the movie you're thinking of. Oh, the movie I'm like down the track of. Okay. All right.

Okay. I'm going to just go for getting my hints. So I'm going to, is the ice harvest one of them? No, not the ice harvest. Got it. Okay. Your years are 2002, 2003, and 2017. Okay.

Okay. So 2017 I weirdly think this is the hardest one kind of because it's like I fully forgot she was in this movie. This is not an obscure movie though. This is a big movie, big big movie. Oh God, a big movie from 2017 is the big one. Yeah. Okay. Starring a beloved

it. Note the sarcasm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. She is, she plays the mother of the title character. Right, she's the mother.

Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, right. So is she, um, is it, if she plays the mother, it's a younger, canceled movie star.

Well, I mean, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, not canceled in that, like,

she definitely keeps getting more. But public opinion has definitely turned on this person for several reasons. She's the co-star in one of the worst-looking trailers of all time, currently playing in theaters right now. Oh, God. Okay. Shit. Okay. All right.

That's 2017. Yeah. So, 2003, is that the cop one that I was thinking of? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's, okay, so very, very well-known director who ran into very highly publicized, uh, legal problems. Yep.

Oh, okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. Famously so. His last movie. Was it, is it, is it, is it, is it, is it, McTiernan? It is, in fact, McTiernan.

Oh, basic. Yeah. Basic. Yeah. Which he has not made a movie since, right? Basic is the last movie. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the 2002 one is a director who we mentioned somewhat briefly in this, uh, episode as um having exited a project he he basically only has exited project is it roman is it roman is it one one hour photo it is one hour photo okay that's the one hour photo okay that's the one i when you were like i'm picturing her as the wife oh yeah he's just like yeah it is a killer films conner me and connor interred did killer film i like one hour photo

i think it is a killer films movie connor very good um okay so the 2017 A big movie that, was. Was it nominated for Oscars? Or let's say, did it have buzz? Was it like that kind of big movie? We would never probably do this. But it's fucking, it's fucking wonder. It is. Yeah. Hip hop into. Literally, literally the imagine video just like shot out of green. That's what it does. That's what it does. Connie left gal on red when got the record. I was, how long do you think before Gladiator 2 shows up and her known for? Because I feel like that's Destin's. Like a year maybe.

Yeah, year maybe. She has a movie's for grown up nomination to show. She's very, like, prominent in that movie. I think it'll depend on, like, how many Oscars it, if, you know, whatever it winds up. I think Dead So, isn't it fascinating? Isn't it fascinating?

Supporting actors all sorts of fucked up right now. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Just past. I was thinking about this earlier. Gladier 2 just speaks to the industry now. Gladiator 2 just passed. just passed Gladiator 1

for worldwide gross but cost double you know? Yeah, yeah. And it just really speaks to like where we are where it's like Gladiator 2 is a success, right? I think it's, you know,

it did what it needed to do. Mm-hmm. But it'll also make money on VOT. Sure, sure, but it just speaks to like where we are. It's just it made what the original made 25 years ago and cost double. You know, it's just like,

yeah, it doesn't look as good. You know, it doesn't look as good. Yeah, it looks. kind of shitty. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. Anyway,

it's just fascinating. But yeah, she, you know who looks great in it? Connie does. Yes. I literally, this was one of my main observations was just like Connie Nielsen looks so good and does not have that like has had a lot of work face.

Even though she probably has had work. It doesn't look like it. She's had very good work. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Connie, who's your specialist?

Tell us. Johnny, drop it. Drop in the hand. Oh, what an honor. So excited. to do that game. It's so great.

Yeah. That was great. Y'all, thank you so much for finally coming. This is a blast. Again, it already felt like we've done this before, so we'll have you guys back.

Yes. What a good time for all this. Well, thank you for having us. We really appreciate your hospitality. Oh, me, thank you for having us on the podcast, son. It's not an American podcast. That's our episode. If you want more ThisHad Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thishead oscarbuzz.com. You can follow us on Instagram at ThisHad Oscar Buzz and on our Patreon at patreon.com slash This Had Oscar Buzz.

Connor and Dan, tell our listeners about the B-Side, wherever they can find you, anything else you want to plug. Yeah, thank you. We, yeah, first off, thanks for having us. And, yeah, you can, the Bees, the Beeside. We are a podcast for the film stage, and we talk about movie stars and directors and not their famous movies, but the ones they made in between. And so, you know, we've had both a view on in various capacities, sometimes both of you at the same time. A lot of Oscar B-side podcast. A lot of Oscar B-side talk. So you could start with those episodes if you want to dip your toe in, if you've just been listening to this. But we have some cool ones recently.

We did some bonus coverage episodes on The Brutalist. So we have a couple, we had an interview with Alessandro Nivolo who's been on a couple of times. Adrian Brody. And Guy Pearce, Adrian Brody. We also did an episode. Did you write Guy Pearce's speech for the New York Film Critics Circle Awards?

Oh, boy. Oh, guy. Oh, dear. Rutrow. Guy's just out there doing it, man. He's just out there doing this thing. We had mutual friend Mitchell Beaupéon right at the end of last year

doing the B-Sides of Al Pacino. So you can chat. that out and then we will have an episode. That was a great episode. I enjoyed the hell out of that episode. Thank you. We will probably, I think by the time this comes out, we'll have aired our episode that we just banked on B-sides of Queen Latifah.

And as we're recording, if you're listening, our Julius Stiles episode will probably be out as well. Oh, yes. She's coming on to talk about, she directed a movie. She's coming on to. And presumably, we'll have you guys back to talk about some more Oscar. If you're around, we're always going to reach out about Oscar when it comes. always say yeah.

Yeah. And we love you for it. Thank you. But yes, yeah, check us out. Obviously, you know, we love you. We love this podcast. And so it's an obvious honor to be on to talk about the devil's own with you. Well, we love you guys too. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? Sure. Letterbox and Blue Sky. I'm at Joe Reed. Read spelled R-E-I-D. I also am hosting a Patreon exclusive podcast on the films of Demi Moore. Called to me, myself, and I, I had Dan and Connor on to talk about the seminal film. Wait, what one were you guys on for? Sorry. The seventh sign? God.

What if there was a seventh sign? What if there was a seventh sign? What if, uh, okay, that's a wild ass. That's like Mr. Police, I gave you all the clues. I gave you these six other signs. It is your, Juergen Prokna being like, I've given you all the signs. Oh my God. Jirken Prochnow in that movie. Yeah, so if you can check out that episode as well as many others at patreon.com slash Demipod. That's D-E-M-I-P-O-D. You can find me on Letterbox and Blue Sky at Crispy File.

That's F-E-I-L. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for our fantastic artwork, Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Mevious for our technical guidance from time to time, and Taylor Cole for our theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcast, Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple podcast visibility. So please be the Irish Dancers welcomed into our all by doing a nice jig over on the review section. That's all for this week.

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