This Had Oscar Buzz - 336 – Certain Women (with Shirley Li!)

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

As we begin to get hyped for a new Kelly Reichardt film on the horizon with The Mastermind, The Atlantic staff writer Shirley Li joins us to discuss her 2016 triptych Certain Women. The film adapts three Maile Meloy stories into one film, with each following a different woman whose voice is stifled in their Montana circumstances. … Continue reading "336 – Certain Women (with Shirley Li!)"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Maryland Hack, Maryland Hack and friends. Dick Poop. We were wondering about the sandstone in the front yard. If you wanted to get rid of it, we'd take it off your hands. You don't have to sell it if you don't want to. It's just that Gina wants this new house to be authentic.

Hey Will, good news. Your lawyer's here. No one understands what my life has become. I don't mean to keep it from getting work or anything. I just knew if I didn't start driving and I wasn't going to see you again. I didn't want that. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast whose brother is causing all this backstage Broadway drama. Every week on this had Oscar buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my famous farming corgi sidekick Joe Reed. I was so, every time I watch this movie, I get so worried for the corgi when the corgi starts, like, chasing the little four-wheeler. Yes. Corgi's fine. The corgi turned out okay, as always. There's that really great. Yeah, there's that really great shot of the corgi just, like, waiting for her to come back. Feel for that. Every time. It's very cute. There's some good animal stuff. There's obviously the horse. Like, clomp, clomp, clomp, clop, clop. Which we'll get to when we talk about that particular story. Joe, is that how you describe horse noises? Yeah, clomp, clomp, clomp.

They just sort of clomp on the asphalt. Here comes a horse. Clom, clomp, clomp. Listener, not only do we have the momentous occasion of getting to talk about a Kelly Reichart movie today, but for the first time ever, staff writer at the Atlantic, Shirley Lee is here.

Round of applause, everybody. Shirley, we're so excited to finally have you. I feel like never get to see your face enough because you're on the West Coast, but we've made this, like, tradition of ourselves at TIF of, like, crying over tacos together with all of bad news in our lives. We really have. I mean, first of all.

And I'm excited to just talk a movie about a talk about a movie with you. Yeah, same. No, first of all, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, I feel like. Oh, my God, absolutely. You know, it's entirely my fault that I'm so far away from both of you. Yeah, what's up with that? We are, we are sort of, we're covering the, the map of the United States at this point where, you know.

It's really all of our faults for not living in Montana. Yeah. Yes. You know, I had that same exact thought, honestly, as the opening credits, I'm like, I wish I could, I wish I could make that sort of work. I could wish I could sort of like, you know, square that circle because it is undoubtedly, undoubtedly calming to sort of just sort of, just, stare at that landscape for a while. You know what I mean? Much as I may not fit in

with the presumed community. I could fuck with Montana. I feel like that's the pace of life that I need right now. This is my, you know, this is that you know, let's, let's, all of us go together. That's the thing. Everybody's got to jump at once. If we can get

everybody we know to move to the same small town in Montana, then we can enjoy that, you know, wonderful landscape together and also like, do game night. Yeah, live on a ranch, have a lot of horses clomp, clomping around, and exactly. And one corgi. Exactly. And one corgi. A single corgi. One person's job is to feed the corgi. The other person's job is to ride the horse and everyone else can figure it out. I mean, I love, I love this idea because it's also essentially what Kelly Whitehart did, right?

Like, you know, she's from Florida. And down there, everything is flat and, et cetera, adjectives we don't have to talk about. Below sea level and whatnot, yeah. And then she goes to, you know, the Pacific Northwest and is like, what is this? This is beautiful. Freedom. I have found freedom. Yeah. Yeah.

And has stayed there since. It made so many films up there since. It's true. I was watching the interview with her. Let's do it. I'm into it. On the criterion where she's like, yeah, I just needed kind of a different landscape and a different environment. So I just went to Montana.

Basically, that's what she said. And her filmography is sort of like, I'm going to, like, sample every sort of flavor of it. I'm going to, like, live off of the grid in Wendy and Lucy. I'm going to become politically radicalized with night moves. I'm going to, like, get to the history of, like, how people got there with Meeks cut off. And I'm going to, you know what I mean? Like, every, you know, I'm going to be sort of frustrated artist in showing up. Yeah.

Yeah. And the common denominator, the base, the foundation of this buffet is Michelle Williams. I was going to say, yep. She's good. As long as she's there, we got our center. Michelle Williams, in a human study of tragedies large and small, but also how, like, even the most well-intending people can be very, very annoying. Yes, that's right. Oh, absolutely. Hell is other people who are not Michelle Williams. Yeah. I want to stick a pin in Michelle Williams and sort of talk about her when we get on the other side of the plot description, whatever, because I do find her star persona so kind of fascinating when you sort of, when you take in everything that she's sort of done and been through and starred in her career. I think she's a deceptively sort of fascinating, you know, figure in Hollywood. And I definitely.

don't want to like, it'll take too, you know, it's a longer discussion to have before we set the table. But I'm, I'm into that discussion. She's so good in this thing. Yeah, yeah, she absolutely is. I'm down for that discussion for both Michelle Williams's. Yeah, the other one's going to win a Tony this year or something like that. People are saying it's crazy. It's exciting. Maybe Michelle Williams will win another Emmy because what is it? Dying for sex is what it called is supposed to do you? Right. I haven't watched it yet. Yes. Yeah. I'm always down for Michelle Williams, even if the content of this particular show might not be what I'm looking to watch right now. Right, right. Yep. Yep.

Do you think Kelly feels the same way where it's like, well, it has Michelle, so I'm going to watch. But the content of the show is probably not. I feel like Kelly is definitely the friend that she's like, Michelle, I am not watching Venom 2. Michelle barely watched Venom 2 and she was in Venom 2. Yeah. Do you think Michelle knows that she was in Venom 2? Is this like, you know... This is the Gwyneth.

Yeah, this is the Gwyneth of like whatever genre of female stars we're about to label Michelle. My favorite thing is somebody asked her again in this, like, whatever, this new round of press she's doing. And somebody asked her again about something to do with Marvel. And she's just like, I don't know. They told her she was in seven movies. And she's like, that's not possible. She's like, there's no way I was in seven of those movies. And then she's like, or maybe I was like, you know, she's like, they shot a lot of footage.

Like, maybe, you know, who's to say? I guess it just goes to show you that Gwyneth, if you tell her she has to be somewhere, she shows up, I guess. I mean, the beauty of it is that it could just be a bit, but it is just a rich lady. Right, right. Preoccupied with other things that we are not preoccupied. Gwyneth, do a Kelly Rikart movie is what we're saying. I mean. I think that would be fun for everybody.

Listen, with the mastermind coming out soon, we're getting a lot of new people into the Kelly Rikart's table that is very, very exciting. It is very exciting. I'm into it. This movie, I think, has, you know, it's one of the four movies she's made with Michelle Williams. But I think this is maybe the movie that has the most people that I need to see that. work with Kelly again? Yes. We're talking about

Marcelline Hugo, right? I want to see Marcelline Hugo work with everyone. A lead role next time for Marcelling Hugo and Ashley Atkinson. I was thinking of choosing her.

Totally. I was thinking of choosing for the IMDB game later. But then I was like, no, I think that's too, that doesn't work. No, if you have to give to Chris, definitely give

Chris Marcelline Hugo. Yeah. That would be impossible. And it would probably be things you wouldn't even think of Marcelline for. Only one way to find out, Chris. Only one way to find out is to let me give it to you as a hybrid game. Yeah, I thought the leftovers would be on there, but no. Wow.

See, that's how the IMDB game gets you. The guilty run. It doesn't matter to IMDB. Silly. Joe, is this our second, Kelly Rikert? We've only done... He did first cow. First cow.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of like. what other ones we could sort of defensively do. Wendy and Lucy had a decent amount of best actress buzz, I feel like, for Michelle Williams around that time. Nothing where it was like, I can't imagine she was all that close

to getting a nomination. But I think that's probably the only other one you could do. Maybe showing up is too. Showing up was pretty niche, was pretty... A-24 kind of dumped it, right? Like, they take it to Cannes. And then it premieres on the very last day of the festival.

Yeah, that's right. And then they, like, I think they took it to New York and dumped it in the spring, you know? She's got a lot of, like, really good movies and really, like, well-reviewed movies that's even still just feel like they exist off of the radar. Certain women and first cow are really the ones where there were some inroads made just in terms of precursor. awards and a lot of that for first cow was just like an accident of like literal accident of nature um but sort of you know not mad about it or anything like that that was that was fun i feel like certain women is the one that put her on a lot of people's maps you know because she she i mean she still feels like she lives most comfortably within an indie niche but you know she

this is her like kind of coming out of a time when like you you could have really, really small movies that would still make some type of traction critically and such. And now, like, even the scale of a Wendy and Lucy just really doesn't exist anymore. I remember seeing certain women at Toronto, and it played, I don't think it was the first critic screening. But those critic screening that I went to was in, like, one of those smaller, the smallest rooms at Scotia Bank. and I remember being like, that's so odd that, like, this is a Kelly Record movie, like, where, you know, it was the movie that was coming off of night moves, and night moves was definitely, like, a disappointment. But even still, I just remember there wasn't a ton of heat around that. And then after Toronto, people really started talking about how great Lily Gladstone was. But it's hard to get momentum. I think you saw this a little bit this past year with kinds of kindness. It really is hard to get momentum. for an anthology movie like that. Like it, you know, you can talk about the parts.

You can maybe single out a performance. We had the same conversation when we talked about the French dispatch. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Very, very recently. Yes. Yeah, it's like triptychs baffle people. You know, yeah.

Well, and it's also the thing that, like, I would believe that all three people on this chat right now have a different favorite story in this movie. You know, it's also that type of thing. a different favorite performance. Yeah, yeah, that's true. And also, like, you know, multiply that by another three for, like, takeaways that you could potentially get from each story. And, you know, I feel like every time I watch it, I feel something slightly different, too. And I think that's the beauty of her work. But then that's really the beauty of anything that's, like, three short stories in one, adapted from three short stories, too.

Right. Right. And that's the thing is it's because it's an adaptation, too, you get that extra level of like, this is Kelly Reichart responding to something in somebody else's work. While also at the same time, it like, it dovetails so well with her other, you know, her other movies in terms of, you know, all of these characters feel like you could have like plucked them out of any of her other movies, you know, in some way or another. Yes, absolutely. It's what Chris was saying before to an extent, right? Like, these are actors you want to see in another Kelly Reikart movie. But actually, in part, like, you want to see these characters again. I kind of want to see them interact with all of the other characters that she's had. Even the ones who are dead by the end of their film, you know? Like. Right. Right. Definitely. Definitely. So, okay, let's, while we've come to a nice pause point, Shirley, it's your first time on the show. We're so happy that you're finally here. But as we. have sometimes forgotten to do and are trying to get better at asking all of our first-time guests. We want to hear your Oscar origin story. What was the first time that the Oscars were really on your radar or that you got interested or obsessed with them, whether it was a movie that brought you there, the ceremony itself? Oh, man.

I mean, I do love this question, but it's got like, I don't quite remember exactly when I became obsessed with the Oscars. I'd say that the movie that made me hyper aware of it was Titanic. I think this dates me. And I think a lot of people have this answer. It's just, it was the movie that I remember my parents wanting to see more than once at the theater. And it was also when I was starting to get near-sighted. So I could vaguely tell that a bad thing was happening to the big ship. And with each subsequent viewing, I got a clearer picture of it.

Oh, my God. That's how they gave you the vision test, was they put you in front of Titanic and they said, better or worse. And the more you could see the passengers crowded around the mast or whatever. Did you see the guy hit the propeller? Exactly. Exactly. It's like the PG version, not the PG-13 because the violence and the sex is a little bit more obscure. Right, right.

Exactly. I mean, I do, like, I have a very distinct memory of, like, my mom covering my eyes. when they go into the car. But, like, that memory is, like, duplicated. I'm like, no, we saw it a couple of times. It was, like, a thing with my parents and their roommates. We kept going to see this one movie. And then I remember watching the Oscars with them and Billy Crystal doing a whole number.

And that was when I became more aware, like, or just more into the Oscars itself. But I feel like I had been kind of aware of them just from. So my mom's a huge, huge. Michelle Pfeiffer fan. Oh, yeah. Well, she has taste. My goodness. Yeah.

So for, like, she's the one who would watch the Oscars and who, like, they're, not that she would watch them live. They're broadcast abroad, but I don't remember her ever staying up or whatever, but just just being aware that she was always kind of, you know, seeking, like, media about Michelle Pfeiffer. Yeah. Sure. Sure.

Yeah. And around this time, like. I had to look this up because I was like, I think all my memories are jumbled, but it's just like Titanic was out. I think I also went to see like One Fine Day with her around that time. Oh, yeah. One Fine Day would have been the year before. So yeah, around that time. Yeah.

So just that was when I became more aware of like movie stars. And I think once I became more aware of movie stars and then there was a movie that movie that was in and of itself a movie star, the ship is the movie star. Like it all like it all cohered into that. You could not pick two better movies to sort of illustrate the concept of movie stars than One Fine Day in Titanic, honestly. Because it really, like, it is true. It's just like the one fine day is completely carried on the power of George Clooney and Michelle Pfeiffer being like capital M, capital S movie stars. And then Titanic, it's almost like watching two movie stars get sort of pushed out of the womb, you know what I mean, a little bit. It's just sort of like this, you know, those roles, that movie just completely, you know, obviously cements them as movie stars forever and ever.

But you are right about the ship. The ship is. Yeah, no, I was going to say, you're exactly right that the ship is the movie star, too. Like this concept that, like, we go to see stars and we go to see spectacle, whether it is a person or a ship or an alien ship blowing up the White House or. or things like that in the 90s, that we don't really have. A wagon train to Oregon in the early 1800s, yes, exactly. Me's cut off. I mean, I'll also say it's not just the ship, right?

It's also the song, not to turn this into a Titanic pot, but it's just kind of like a song was its own stock. It's always a Titanic pod. Yeah, exactly. And my parents were doing karaoke with it all the time. You are making your parents sound like my ideal Friday night hang. Like, I want to hang out with your parents. They love Michelle Pfeiffer, they're doing karaoke, they're taking you to movies, even though you can't see the screen. Like, it's awesome. No, my parents are awesome. They are a lesson to the Oscars these days. I mean, look, like, once Michelle Pfeiffer stopped starring in things for a while, I think, like, my folks weren't really watching. And my dad's much more of an action person. And if it takes, like, this many years for James Cameron to make another film, it really, like, so both of them kind of fell off. Man, cast Michelle Pfeiffer for Avatar 7, James Cameron, bring Shirley's parents back to the theater where they belong.

Do it for my folks. I mean, I do it. Yeah, but it's really, I don't know, the Oscars kind of just go hand in hand with, like, being aware of movie stars. And I think that's when I, I think that's also around the time, like, I'm a kid. I think that's also around the time when I was like, wait, these are, like, these people are really glamorous and I want to know more about them. And like, like, you know, so it's. It's just kind of, is it really an Oscar origin story? Or is it just kind of a Hollywood awareness, pop culture, origin story?

Like, anyway, that's all. Well, this is the thing about the Oscars is they used to be one and the same. They used to be more of an intertwine type of thing. And I think, you know, post-Titanic, if someone has their origin after that, it is usually more movie-related. And, like, Titanic feels like it's a movie-related thing of being drawn to the Oscars. But it's this whole other, like, literal ocean barge. In 15 years, we're going to hear about the kids whose parents took them to see Barbie

and Oppenheimer on the same day. And we're going to hear that generation is going to come of age. If this country is still above water and standing, we will have those conversations. And we don't have a TikTok best picture winner. Oh, my God. We don't have a vertically held. Oh, front-facing comedy-winning best comedy or musical at the Golden Globes. Vertical frame shot on IMAX is stuck.

No, this is terrifying. Oh, my God. Anything to save movies. No, that's a wonderful, it's a wonderful origin story, Shirley. I think it's so charming. Oh, thanks. I mean, I do wish I had something, like, way more specific. where it's like, oh, no, it's because of this obscure performance that I was really awesome.

And it's like, no, it's Titanic. You're like, Emmanuel Riva changed my life. And I was so plugged in to Amor. That's the other, that's the generation I want to see. It's like, yeah, the young gay boy who was like 10 when Amor was out and was just like, I was completely radicalized by those two old people who, you know, at the end of their lives and whatever. and like those stories are coming and we just need to wait for them. That's the other thing is as movie going, like theatrical movie going,

like I'm not going to sort of hop on the bandwagon of like it's going away because like it's, I don't believe that. But as sort of watching from home has become more common and whatever, I think you are going to end up with really interesting sort of like esoteric weird kids in about 10, 15 years who are like, no, like, I went and saw movies in theaters and, like, I was sort of radicalized by this.

I was radicalized by saying I'm still here in the theater. But it'll be the same, it'll be the same kind of dedication as, like, the kids who went to, like, used video stores and found old John Waters movies or whatever. But it's just a matter of, like, going to your multiplex and seeing fucking Mickey 17 or something like that.

And it's, but it's still, like, it's the dedication. ones, right? It's the, it's the, you know, you got to work for it. Yes. I actually think, like, the harder it is to access the cooler, it becomes, I don't know, I'm speaking as. No, that's always been the case with art. Yeah. Absolutely. It makes me sound like, it makes me sound a little bit like an old fogey, but it is kind of like if you prohibit it from a child, they will try harder to get there. And then it becomes even cooler. So this is why people cross state lines to see Oppenheimer in 70 millimeter. Like, this is why people braved COVID to go see. People who went to see Tenet with a gas mask on. This is who Christopher Nolan thought of. He was like they will do it for me. He wasn't reckless.

He was just thinking of the weird kids. And we appreciate that. Who's he thinking of now? I don't know if you've seen the set photos out of... The Greeks. I haven't. Listen. We're all...

Ancient Greeks. Yeah. He's other people thinking about the Roman Empire. He's thinking of the ancient Greeks. Okay. So what is the response? I am so much less online now. What are people thinking about these Odyssey set photos?

Well, it seems like, is there a consensus show? To me... I haven't really seen much consensus. There was a little sense of like, oh, of course, like, no one's doing another, like, big, huge thing with, like, 8 billion actors. It's less of the Oppenheimer thing. Remember how much the Oppenheimer narrative for a while was just, like, every white man in Hollywood is going to be an Oppenheimer.

And it felt for a second, like, people were sort of waiting to, like, pounce on Nolan for that. There's less of that because he's, like, casting more women in this. Yeah. I think Oppenheimer has people in a very sort of, like, pro-Nolan place, I think. So I think there's a lot of benefit of the doubt. I think there's a lot more sort of just genuine enthusiasm. I think people, I know when the one Matt Damon still came out, people are like, oh, God,

they're going to, they're going to, Brendan Fraser in the whale, this one still. And it's going to be like the only thing we see for Oppenheimer for like months and months. They're going to kill us on the flower moon it. They're going to. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I think they're more excited for it. My impression from the photos that I've seen is that it just seems very direct and earnest.

Yeah. Like, you know, it feels like a straightforward, like, swords and sandals type of deal. but with The Odyssey, and to that, I say, just let him. If he wants to make an earnest epic, just let him. If Wolfgang Peterson came out with Troy today, I would be so fucking excited for that. Like, honestly, yes. Also, the, like the set photos of, like, the Matt Damon set photos, you know, I could take or leave the beard. But the watchboard abs are looking good that they appealed to my younger self who did have

like he was my first celebrity crush. To talk about the same Oscars, he was there with Ben. Yes. And I remember being like, that's a cutie. Who's that? Do you remember the Vanity Fair cover with Matt Damon where he's like in the bathtub and he's got like the toothbrush in his mouth? Oh, yeah. Yes.

I know exactly what you're like. Like it's that was definitely a very, you know, emblazoned upon my mind around that time. We're bringing, we're bringing him back. I mean, well, did he ever go away? It's not. But no. He just spent a while putting his foot in his mouth about various things. Repeatedly.

He could not stop. He could not stop. He could not stop. He could, absolutely could not stop. Yeah. Okay, so let's draw us away from certain men and bring us back to certain women. Okay, so. Thank you, Chris.

We threw out, like, a list of some options for you. And this is one that you responded to with a lot of. lot of enthusiasm. So what made this one stand out to you? Oh, my gosh. I mean, you know, the first thing that came to mind was just it's international women's, no, I'm kidding. I, um, totally. I had no idea I had no idea I would have recorded much. I'm okay. Perfect. Well done. Well done. I think when you reached out, I think when you reached out and the options that were available, This one jumped out because, look, it's just my ongoing affection for Kelly Rikart, but also I think in the moment, and maybe this is more common than ever, I was, of the films I was rewatching anyway or seeking on my own were films that kind of offered some stillness and silence and not necessarily comfort, you know, like I don't turn to Kelly's movies to be like, oh, make me feel all warm and fuzzy. and like everything's going to be fine, but just a movie that would, that had, that, that was

thoughtfully made and had stillness. You know what I mean? And I think it just kind of jumped out at me. And because, like, I do love talking about Kelly Reichard. So I was like, well, that's a good one for a first appearance. And I had also, I don't know, we started talking about doing an episode toward the end of last year. And so I think it was a kind of a moment of like, Who's someone I would like to talk about more? What kind of film would I want to be watching right now? Instead of this year-end barrage of Oscar Hopefuls. Yeah, I hear that.

Yeah. I definitely hear that. I also hear you in the idea of stillness is a comfort in these times of, you know. Yes. Well, and there are certain Kelly Reichart movies where you sort of live in tension. And there's certain Kelly Reichert movies where you live in sort of still. And I think this one, I think for as much sort of, you know, that goes down in Meeks cutoff, I think the slowness of that movie, when people talk about like Kelly Reichard and Slow Cinema, I don't not get it. But I do feel like they're mostly talking about Meeks cutoff, which is a movie that I think very intentionally slows things down in order to communicate things about like the actual events of the movie and the wagon train and the sort of, you know, the frustration of people and whatnot. But I think of something like, Wendy and Lucy, where you're just sort of, like, constantly living in tension that, like, something is going to, bad is going to happen.

Night moves is sort of like that. But, like, certain women, first cow, Meeks cut off, showing up. I think those are the movies you can just sort of like, even, you know, there are things, they're, you know, good things and bad things happen in those movies. But I think there is just a something to the style of the filmmaking that makes you feel relaxed. Yeah. And I like that. I like that about her. I think also, and like, pardon me, if this is super corny, but there's something about her specific type of curiosity for other people that is comforting as well. You know, like she's so interested in other people and she's, you know, she allows her characters to just kind of be themselves and like for us as the audience to just observe and know that that's enough and there is going to be, you know, human interest there. and like storytelling interest

and maybe the getting from A to B in the course of the story that she's going to tell us may not seem like this big leap but we are still gathering information and I feel like I still continue to learn about her characters

every time I rewatch one of her movies and I think it's because of the amount of space that she gives her characters. Yes, exactly. It's kind of like she, well, her characters and her stories feel lived in right off the bat right but they also you know i mean like this might sound cloying it's just they're they're they're they're innately empathetic you know they're they're they're so curious

and about the characters that are on screen and and yes i don't know that that space just allows you as the viewer to also feel like you're being trusted with this character because it's not telling you everything about them you're also filling in the blanks and so you feel like you're a part of whatever's happening in a way that's, that's, that's, um, that's fulfilling. I don't know. Well, there are, throughout this movie, there are disconnects between the characters, right? I think that's sort of like the United theme with the movie, one of them at least, is that like these characters are on some level, unable to get on each other's level and sort of figure out what, where the other person is coming from. And I think what Rikert allowed.

you to do is to just sort of, she doesn't push you in any sort of one direction or the other to, you know, come to any particular conclusion. But she does, sort of like what you were saying, just sort of allows you to figure out that space between them for yourself, figure out what, you know, this, you know, marriage between Michelle Williams and James LaGro is going on. What, how you feel about what's going on with Kristen Stewart and Lily Gladstone, which is, seems initially straightforward, like this sort of like meet cute, but like, what is there to say about like the disconnect between them and why ultimately, you know, things don't end up working out? And then with Laura Dern, I mean, whatever, we'll get into all of this, but like with Laura Dern and Jared Harris, I think it's like fascinating the way that. We're like, it's set up so antagonistically. And then, but because Rikart sort of just allows them to exist opposite each other, it then is able to come to this, like, really kind of interesting moment between them at the end. It's equally valid that we can have empathy for Jared Harris in his circumstance,

but also relate to Laura Dern that it's like, yeah, this guy's really annoying and you just needs to get out of her office, you know? Right, right, right. There's like, there's, I mean, it's interesting. Maybe it's not, like, maybe we shouldn't call her cinema slow cinema. It's more like it's just, it's just patient. It's like, it's letting. That's a great word for it. And that's, and that's not, that's not the same thing as slow.

It's just creating room for you to understand the story and these characters and to be invited into it. Like, it is the, like, I do think this is one of the reasons why she remains a niche filmmaker. Like it will, she's, she's not made for the people who will be like, wait, but how do they know each other? You'll, you'll get that or you'll fill in the blank yourself. Oh, do you need it? This would be a nightmare movie for me to watch with my sister, who is constantly being like, what's, what did, what did they say, what's going on? What are they going to do?

No, why is she acting that way? And it's just like, that's what, that's what the movie's for. That's what the movie's for to figure out why she's acting that way. Where are they? Why is she there? This is Kelly Rikart's highest grossing film. It grossed just over a million dollars, and that is so depressing. Seven figures, baby.

She did it. But we are legion. We are legion. Well, this is the thing. This is what, you know, I think, and I agree with Shirley on this, too. It's just like, I, ultimately, movies like that are just not meant to, you know, they're so sort of specifically pitched that they're just never going to be widely appealing, broadly appealing. And, like, that's fine. I think if Kelly Rikart wanted to make a movie that was broadly appealing, she would.

She has the chops for it. She knows how to make a movie. You know what I mean? It's just like, these are the movies she wants to make. and I think she finds enough of an audience that she's able to keep making them and, you know, and make them pretty often. It's not like she has to, like, take, you know, seven or eight years in between movies to sort of, like, muster up whatever. She's making movies at a pretty good clip and, you know. Yeah.

I love that. This is part of why I'm so, I mean, I'm excited for the mastermind because I'd be excited for anything Kelly Reichart would make. But Mooby is handling that movie. and I think they're riding high off of the substance. They do seem like, you know, part of the problem with A24 handling showing up was that they, you know, they're known for if they move on from a movie, they just kind of dump it. And I, Mooby feels like a home that can devote all of its attention to. Well, and this cast, too, we should say the cast, because it's, you know, Kelly Reichart

mainstay, John McGarrow, who we love. This is a John McGarrow podcast, and I'm not afraid to say it. But like Josh O'Connor, Alanaheim, Hope Davis, Bill Camp, Gabby Hoffman, Amanda Plummer, just this great sort of survey of like, you know, matinee idol hunk down to like, you know, character actor extraordinaire, Bill Camp. And, you know, weird girls, Gabby Hoffman and Amanda Plummer. Amanda Plummer is so funny. showing up. Oh my gosh. She is. Everybody's so good in showing up. What an underrated movie. Showing up is, you know, her, the closest to a capital C comedy, Reichart as probably ever made or might ever make. But I think one of the other pleasures of her rewatching her movies is that they get funnier each time you watch them. Yeah. I think even something like Wendy and Lucy, which is so tense and, you know, stressful. Just in terms. of what the context of this woman that we're watching and what she's going through.

But that's, again, another movie where having to have patience with someone is very funny to watch at times. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, she's just, I mean, she's one of those, like, anthropologist filmmakers, right? I feel like she just understands how people interact with one another. And the thing about how people interact with one another is that 99% of the time, it's awkward because you're trying to figure out how to do it. Right, right, exactly. Even in, like, the least funny setup, I'm trying to think, like, night moves might be, like, the least funny situation possible. Right.

But it's like when Jesse Eisenberg learns that there's a man that's gone missing, like, she keeps the camera on his face and you're kind of studying this guy just a little shell shock. That's kind of a little funny. Yeah, no, it's great. Like, that sucks. But it's not funny, ha ha. Right, no. But it's, it works. It works.

Yeah. And, and I mean, like, I do think, I don't know, like, sometimes there's a part of me that's like, oh, Kelly, just keep making the same films over and over. I would love them forever. But I would really love to see her take another, take another crack at, at a thriller, at a, you know, see what I have. Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. And maybe Mastermind is going to be a little bit. Is it supposed to. Okay.

It's about an art. It's an art heist movie. Yeah, it's an art heist movie. So maybe it'll have some of that. Oh, yes, it is. Which, like, if Kelly Reichart's going to assemble an ocean's crew, it's going to have people like Alana Hym and Bill Camp. And Hope Davis. Yes.

Yeah. Hope Davis is your Safe Cracker or whatever. Like, I'm into it. No, no, no. Safe Cracker is good. If we were to do a heist, I would want, yeah. If we were to do an art heist, I want to be the. the driver and hope Davis can crack

the safe. Sorry, I just added myself to this cast. No, that's great. All the more excited to see it now. Yeah. Chris, we have gotten way too far into this. We have we're just off to the races talking about Titanic, talking about Kelly

Reichardt. We'll get into the plot description, but before we do, Joe, will you tell our listeners about our Patreon? Yes, really quick. We have a Patreon that you can join for $5 a month. It's called This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. It gives you two

fresh and full episodes every month. On the first Friday of every month, we give you an episode that falls under the umbrella called Exceptions, which is movies that we would love to talk about, but we can't because the rule on regular this had Oscar buzz is

if it has any Oscar nominations at all, we can't talk about it, but on the Patreon, we waive that rule if it got maybe a couple or two, but it still has the same general vibe, of big expectations, disappointing results. So under that umbrella, we have talked about movies like Mulholland Drive. We've talked about Far from Heaven, The Lovely Bones, My Best Friend's Wedding, Molly's Game,

speaking of Bill Camp. We've talked with friends of ours. We've had Katie Rich on to talk about Australia and Natalie Walker on to talk about Phantom of the Opera and Jorge Molina on to talk about Knives Out. Earlier this month, we did a Cohen's episode on the film, inside Lewin Davis. And it was a good time. I'm going to say that, even though we haven't recorded it yet,

but I'm going to predict the future. Second episode of every month comes on the third Friday, and that's what we call on excursion, which isn't about a specific movie, but rather a piece of awards season ephemera that we really love. We've done old entertainment weekly, fall preview issues.

We've talked about old awards shows from the Golden Cross, Globes to the Independent Spirits to the MTV Movie Awards. We do our own little awards at the end of every year called the the said Oscar buzz superlatives. We don't know what the March episode excursion is going to be yet. It will be fabulous. Trust that whatever it is, it's going to be a real good time. Last month, we did a deep dive into the history of the SAG Awards and I'm an actor intros. It was a good time. It was a real good time. So if that sounds fun to you, you and it should, head on over to patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz and join This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliant. There are so many back episodes for you to enjoy that, like, honestly, at $5 a month,

it is a steal at twice the price, but we won't be charging you twice the price. We will charge you once the price. And that is that This Had Oscar Buzz promised to you. Once the price every month, this had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. Listener, certain women written and directed by the great Kelly Reichart based on three short stories by Mali Molloy, starring Laura Dern, Michelle Williams, Lily Gladstone, Kristen Stewart, Jared Harris, James LaGroreau, Renee Abrechaumois, Ashley Atkinson and John Gets. The movie World premiered at the Sundance Film Festival in 2016, went on to play Toronto, went and played New York and then opened limited October 14th, 2016. Shirley, as our guest, you are charged with doing a 60-second plot description. Are you ready?

Okay, I took some notes. Uh-huh. All right, then your 60-second plot description of certain women starts now. Okay, certain women tells three sort of interconnected stories. I mean, they're kind of like barely interconnected, and there are stories of three women in Montana. Montana. Their first one is Laura, played helpfully by a Laura. The character is a lawyer who has a client played by Jared Harris, who suffered a workplace accident, but he has, like, no legal recourse to get the money that he should be compensated. So he's extremely disgruntled. In one night, he causes a scene that forces Laura to talk him down, and she's the one who kind of, like, solves the issue. Oh, no. Even though she suddenly, you know, earlier realized that he was never going to take her legal advice, she turns and pulls his cops. Uh, second story is Gina, played by Michelle Williams. She's the wife of the man that Laura's been sleeping with. So it's kind of like, no wonder she's like fixated on starting over. Um, her story is maybe like the thinnest, but it's also. Anyway, okay, she's building a house on some undeveloped land. She wants her husband's help, convincing this elderly man near their property to sell them sandstone. And, uh, that, that's basically what happens. And then the third story, which is my favorite.

It's, oh, God, it's a story of a rancher played by Lily Gladstone, whose name I don't think we ever learned, but I've been told as Jamie, goes to this night school on a whim one evening and she becomes taken with this young mousy teacher who's teaching education law. The teacher is played by Kristen Stewart. They have a meal at the local diner. After each class, Kristen Stewart's character has to drive a really long way. every week, you know, twice a week to teach this class. And when she quits her post because of that long drive, Lily Gladstone's character immediately goes to see her, makes that drive herself.

And then what she gets is silence back. And it's not a snowy silence. I'm already going on too long. But anyway, we then get an epilogue kind of telling us what happened with each of the characters like at some point in the future. Laura visits Jared Harris, you know, who asks her to write more. Gina smiles at herself, to herself. That's the right word.

And the rancher continues working and cue the guitar strums, cue my, cue my heartstrings being pulled, cue the rest of this podcast. How over it are? 75 seconds over. A real Chris Files special on this. I have known to go 90 seconds, maybe even a full two minutes over. You did good. I need three minutes to do three.

story. Yeah, 60 seconds for each story. Let's just like take these stories maybe one at a time and just like talk about what we think about them. This is the thing about doing these kind of episodic movies is that it's easy to talk about them in a linear fashion, I suppose. Yeah. That's true.

Yeah. The Laura Dern portion, I feel like Laura Dern. This is right before the moment where, you know, gay guys went crazy for Laura Dern. Yeah, where is this in relation to the Big Little Lies? I think the true Kickstarter is her second Oscar nomination from Wild. Right, which is this, no, which came a couple years before this. 2014, yes, yeah. Big Little Lies was 2018?

I want to say 17. I might be wrong I'm also looking Yeah I feel like it was maybe earlier than that But I could be Completely off I think it's earlier than that

Because I Was it 2017? Big Little lies is 2017 And then season two was 2019 And I think pretty early in 2017 for that I think it's like a February premiere Or something like that Yeah

Yeah Yes it is February of 2017 Yeah. So I remember things by what apartment I was living in when I, that's one of the benefits of moving as often as I did in New York City is I can really triangulate things pretty well by what apartment I was in when I was watching. And you watch Big Little Lies in your apartment in Montana. 100%. Absolutely I did. Above a, above a law office in Montana. Can we also take a minute to, while we're talking about the beginning of certain women, take a minute to acknowledge the fact that this movie begins. Well, after, you know, the nice shot of, you know, the scenic rounds of. Montana. And then we get James LaGroes' butt. Yes. Just sort of like, we're very cute. We should acknowledge this.

We should acknowledge it. In long underwear then. And it's just like, sir. Here's the thing. This is like, I think this is also the second film in her filmography to start with a shot of a train. Because doesn't Wendy and Lucy also start with a train? I think it does. Yeah.

But God, it's been so long, but that's a good catch. But that takes us to an innocent place of a girl and her dog. And this one takes us to a place of a girl in her dog, but the dog is shameful. Excellent. Well done. So they're having an affair. And it's hot, too, because, like, you can tell they just had good sex is the way that I will put it. Yeah.

You know. My favorite thing about that is when she comes back to the office and she's 10 minutes late for her meeting with Jared Harris, who, of course, reminds her that she's 10 minutes late. And she says, oh, like, something about, like, I took a long lunch meeting. I was having a lunch meeting. And the secretary, what's her name? Played by Ashley Atkinson. Ashley Atkinson gives this very subtle look. And I'm just like, she knows.

She understands. She knows what she's really up to. I love that. You get it, Ashley Atkinson. You understand. No, I like how, you know, sort of the parameters of what they have going on. You can tell it's illicit, right? they're like ducking away for a nooner or whatever. But like, um, it also feels like there's

genuine, you know, it's not like, you know, you sometimes see these things where like people are having an affair and they just like hate each other. And it's just like, why are you? And they're having sex just because they like need to feel something or whatever. And it's just like, no, it's not that. Like that feels very TV to me. Um, and this is, you know, it's, it's a little, again, you know, you bring your own judgment to it. You bring your own judgment to it. You bring own evaluation to it. And, but you can get the sense that her character is definitely exhausted or certainly exasperated by Jared Harris, who is, you know, keeps pushing for legal remedies for some on-the-job accident that he has. And she keeps telling him, like, you don't have a recourse for this.

Because he accepted a buyout of something. kind and he doesn't accept that and then go in front of the judge and have their little like meaning whatever and the judge says it and or whatever the you know the adjudicator the you know uh i think it's just another personal injury lawyer like yeah is it another lawyer oh okay okay it's like a fancy lawyer though yeah yeah but he says what she's been saying and he's like very well she gets so fast which i love But he also, like, he's, yeah, right, but he doesn't, Jared Harris is still, the exact sort of tenor of their relationship is something, too, because, like, she, like, has to drive him to this meeting. So she's like, she's going the extra mile for him. We're, like, she's driving him to the meeting. They, like, go to this, like, mall where she, like, goes and gets food and, like, comes back to the car and he's still there at the car. So she's sort of, she's babysitting him a little bit, right, while this is going on. While he's, like, he's. like, he's gone off the deep end a little bit. He's, you know, semi-estranged, sort of on the road to being estranged from his wife, who's, like, sits behind him during this meeting with

the other lawyer and sort of, like, rolls her eyes because, like, she's at the end of her rope with this guy. Um, but then when they're in the car, he starts, like, saying some crazy shit, talking about how he wants to, like, harm his wife, talking about how he should just, like, nobody's going to listen to him until he, like, gets a, like, machine gun and, you know, heads to the town square or whatever. And I like that Laura Dern's reaction to this is primarily just like, I do not need this today. Like I am robbing you off at the side of the road. Right. I cannot handle this today. It's just like one more aggravation. When I'm watching it and I'm just like, girl, you are unsafe. Like this is an unsafe situation

for you. He is threatening harm to others and himself. Like he is not a, you know, this is not a safe person to be around and ultimately that proves itself somewhat true and that like he does hold her hostage he's the actual degree of danger that she's in is always sort of you know a little fungible but um it's it's a really interesting dynamic between them because ultimately he's unstable but she at least holds the cards to some degree yes I would agree. I think, yeah, it's, like, this first story is maybe the most conventional. Like, I like it. Yeah, and it's, but what's fascinating. This is a Kelly Reichard action movie. Right. And yet it never feels quite like an action movie because really what you're taking.

Right. Like, in the span of what, like, four or five scenes, you see how much Laura Dern's character, this lawyer kind of code switches, right? Like, we meet her in this, like, Vixit mode. We know she just had good sex because of her, like, little, little smile in bed. Yep. And- Body language. Yeah, it's in the body language. It's in, like, the framing. I really love those opening shots. Like, not just, not just James LaGro's butt. But, but. It's the cameras that we're here for. That mirror in the background so that you can always see both of them in their bodies in the same frame. Yeah. And yet, like, like, yeah, they're always in the same frame, but they're not necessarily in the same space. space. You can see her in the reflection and he's kind of looking off into space. And so she moves from Vixen to, like you said, Joe, she has to babysit this guy. She then becomes like this exhausted mom. And that's where the tension is instead of wondering if she's going to be okay. Because even when we cut to like the office building and we see that there's cops outside, there's not some like score that swells. That's like, duh, no, no. Like, no. Like, no. It's just, okay, all right, lawyers here.

He's holding the sky hostage with, like, a BB gun. He's incompetent at keeping a hostage. And it's not some creepy-looking house either. It's just like this, like, office building that is on, like, a main drag of whatever this city is. You know what I mean? Like, this movie sort of takes place, at least this section of it, takes place in, like, strip malls and, you know, office parks and whatnot. Yeah. My favorite touch of that, well, first of all, the whole thing with the security guard, he's, you know,

holding hostage. Big man. John Gets says the police chief. I'm fist pumping. Every time he shows up, I'm like, yeah, baby. He's great. But the security guard who is like, who is like has a claim to the royal grown of whatever of,

of what is it, Samoa? It's somewhere. And he's like, well, like, if, you know, 52 people die or whatever, like I'll be next in line. And he's very chill. And then when she's, he's, Jared Harris makes Laura Dern sort of read through his file out loud.

And the guy just goes like, man, you got screwed. And he's like, thank you. Yes, I didn't get screwed. And he essentially like lets him go from that point. And then he comes up with this scheme where he's going to have Laura Dern go out the front door. And in his plan, she's going to buy him time by like, you know, lying to the cops or whatever that he's right behind her. and he's going to go out back, and he, like, doesn't take the gun with him when he goes. And, like, again, in another context, she would be very much in danger of, like, defying him or whatever.

But, like, that's not really the case here. And then she just sort of, he goes out the back. And as soon as she's out of his sight, she's like, I guess I'll walk out the front. And she's sort of, like, walks out the front door. And she's like, he's out back. He's not armed. Like the way she delivers that line is so funny Where it's just sort of like, here we go.

Like, she's just kind of blazze and tired. I mean, she's tired and constantly aggrieved by him and annoyed. Yeah. But the thing is, she does keep showing up for him in a way. And even when she's like telling them that he's outbacked, it's like in a way that's like, don't hurt him. Don't hurt him. It's, you know, this is more silly.

than anything. It really is more silly than anything. Sorry, go on. Just... Yeah. Yeah. That's what... That's kind of how a Kelly Reichard action movie would go down. Is that, like, the guy holding someone at gunpoint is incompetent about it, you know? Well, and then to jump to the end, because at the end, you get, like, sort of epilogs on all three things. And their epilogue, he's in jail. She's come to visit him. She's brought him, like, food. He still is weirdly, like, persnickety and, like, and, like, and, finicky about things, which is, like, annoying. And he also is this thing where, like, if he were a more sinister person, the things that he says would be where he's like, you haven't written to me. You know what I mean? And, like, you could play that as something where it's like he's dangerous. But ultimately, that scene wraps itself around to him just being like, you don't have

to say much. You know what I mean? Just like, just, you know, write down some words. and how you're going and put it in. And she sort of takes it in. And I think you get this very quiet sense of, I think she finally sort of sees him and sort of sees just how little it would take to make him feel like somebody is listening to him. Yes. And like, he's done bad things. Like, he's not, you know, I think, I think Kelly, one of Kelly Rickard's gifts is she sort of allows you come to a point of empathy without, like, brushing aside, you know, actions or whatever.

But, like, it's really this very sweet moment where, and it's all on her face, really. It's all on Laura Dern's face. She does, like, a deceptively really good job of just sort of realizing that just, like, I don't, you know, I don't have to be, like, completely aggrieved by all of his requests if it's just a matter of, like, all he wants me to do is just sort of acknowledge that he's hurting and and like drop a quick note and saying I'm thinking of you

You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be a to home. Yeah. Right. Yes. Like Laura's excellent in this. Jared is excellent in this too. But it comes as a surprise to

I feel like it also comes as a surprise to him when he finally says it. And that's also what's kind of heartbreaking that it is really hard to just ask someone to care, lower case to see. like just to kind of admit, like, I just need someone to validate my feelings, that I'm hurt and I'm lonely and that my wife is involved with a guy from prison and I'm a guy from prison. Why not me? That's the wildest thing, too. She's like, she's genuinely happy with this other prisoner. Yeah. And it's just like that. And it's darkly funny. But it's also, because he's just like, he really is just the most Eeyore person ever, this Jared Harris character. Just the rain cloud over his head.

Just a raincoat over his head at all times. But it's also that quality that makes him somewhat harmless, you know? Yes, he's just... Yeah, he's just Eeyore. I'm glad you brought up Laura Dern's performance, or you both did, just because I feel like she's kind of the one who doesn't get talked about as much in this movie, strangely. And I think she's incredible in this. And then, of course, it's like big little lies happens a few months later,

and then we start getting the big Laura Dern performance. performances, you know? Yes. Yes. And I still think this one's really special. Yeah. It is. It definitely is. I wonder if it's because it is, this is one of the stories where I feel like every time I've rewatched, I take something new.

And I think it's because it is the most conventionally structured. But when, but the more you think about it, it's like the, the, the lowercase T twist there about care kind of only works because this whole time, both of them are. Both she and Jared Harris are playing these roles that we expect them to play. She's mothering this guy who's completely lost, who's, like, becoming very juvenile and just, like, fooling around, you know, being like, I've got a little BB gun with me. And, oh, when you're the king of Samoa, like, give me a job. Like, he's joking around. This is, like, he's such a kid.

And she's taking on the role of, like, mothering him. And then for their, like, final scene to kind of be. this admission that she doesn't have to take on such a big role and he's not looking for that much really is like it's profound and it matters but you don't really think about that unless you watch it again and consider it in full maybe like yes so yeah yeah yeah can can we also talk about as we sort of prepare to jump to the michel williams story these transitions these barely there transitions between scenes where all of a sudden,

it just seemsously into another one and it's... I love it. It really, first of all, it keeps you on your toes. Second of all, it just, it does not, it, it emphasizes the fact that like, there is not a whole lot

of distance between these stories. They're geographically, but also sort of emotionally. As episodic as it ultimately is, the way that she drops you in and out of each story makes them feel so much more adjacent than maybe, you know, you would talk about them to be.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's like, the thing about a Kelly Reichart film is, like, you can envision the, the, like, more hackneyed Hollywood way of doing it. We'd have a map of Montana. It'd zoom out and it'd zoom back in. In first now, it would go from sepia tone to regular color.

it would shift to the aspect ratio. We'd get some big honking letters tell us what we are. I do actually want, though, a Game of Thrones style opening credits where it's just all of the Kelly Rikert universe and you move from like Montana to Oregon and like down into the, you know,

coastal area and whatnot and then into an art studio. Actually, that reminds me, Chris, when you were listing the cast earlier and I was like, man, those are heavy hitters. In my head, I pictured like, the way they rolled out the Avengers Doomsday cast

with each of the chairs. Renee Abrez-Jean-ois. That's great. Some of those names would have had just as much star power as the people that they revealed in the Marvel reveal. That thing went on for four hours.

Why did that go on so long? I just had that tab. I just had that tab open among many tabs, and I kept checking in every once in a while and being like, well, it's the same name as it was the last time I checked. Yep, this is what I thought. That's okay. Yeah, well, that's the other thing is like,

the second name is Vanessa Kirby. And then the last name before Robert Brownie Jr. is Pedro. And it's like, yeah, as soon as you said Vanessa Kirby, I knew the other three fuckers were going to be in here. Like, what are you talking about? Like, what are you making his way for? Yeah. Oh, Abin Moss-Mack is in it.

You're kidding me. Like, come on. It's crazy. Yeah. A right cart one would be so much more fun. that's all right that wouldn't be so much more fun oh my god exactly Mary Ann Plunkett yeah

amazing yeah actually though actually though so now we hop into Michelle Williams Michelle Williams turns out to be James Legerow's wife which is our first sort of bit of like oh something so we already know a good bit about this marriage and that the daughter

is her stepdaughter has a different mother than Michelle Williams if I'm correct, right? Which just also paints a whole other dynamic for the audience. I saw the daughter's name is Guthrie. The face that Shirley made,

you have to envision it in your head. She said Guthrie. Her name is Guthrie. But also, you know everything you need to know about Michelle Williams from this quarter-zip performance active wear that she's got, she's just gone for her brisk, you know, jog early in the morning.

Doesn't she, like, check her blood pressure in the middle of it to? I'm sure she's checking her stats. She's checking her numbers, making sure everything's at optimum function, and then she's back into their little glamping tent slash yurt.

Like, it's sort of, it's slash, like, World War II surgical tent. Yeah. There's a determination to, like, live in a tent, but in a way that, like, sacrifices nothing from what you would normally have in the house. I do kind of love that. But in my mind, just, like, go sit in the house. Honestly, couches are great. But so the stepdaughter hates her and, like, barely, like, ever lifts her eyes up from the phone. And so much of this segment is, I think, very consciously playing this sort of push-pull game of like, what do you think of her?

Like, do you think she's, do you think she's a good stepmom? Do you think she's a bad, do you think she's a good wife? Do you think she's a bad wife? Do you think she's taking advantage of this guy? Or is she just sort of like doing shrewd business? Is she in this for the right reasons? Does she have good ideas for the sandstone? Like, is she too aggressive?

Is she too much of a type A, blah, blah, blah, and I think you end up with, like, you go, you cycle through so many different answers. And then I think by the end, I think you sort of come out to a place where you're just like, maybe just like let her like do her thing. Let her have her sandstone. Let her have her sandstone. Maybe she's not an asshole for even asking because that's that's kind of the tension, right, that she's going into this guy's home. trying to be nice to him, but trying to get out of him what she wants,

which is this lump of sandstone this pile of sandstone bricks, yeah. And it's the dynamic alone that makes you question, oh, she's an asshole. But, like, how big of a deal is it? Like, it's all built up to make, to kind of erode,

which I guess, like sandstone. erode this idea that, like, she's imposing on this man or manipulating him in some way. Right. Well, and, like, LaGro, like, you know from the beginning that the one thing that you know from the beginning is that he is cheating on her. But also, like, he says the thing to his daughter where, like, we're going to be nice to, oh, what's her name? Gina. Shoot. Yeah. We're going to be nice. Oh, I guess he does. I think she says to your mother. I think she says, I think he like, whatever. However he says it, we're going to be nice to her today. And the daughter is like, why? And he's like, he says something about like, because she, you know, does this and this. And then he says, and you and I would be pretty, wouldn't do very well without her. Which is. Why did I just decide?

that she was a stepdaughter. I don't know. I don't think she. See, yeah, now I'm kind of like, is she? They have that dynamic, though. Right, right. So I told, I just. Yeah, I don't think, I didn't catch that she was a stepdaughter.

I just made that up. Okay, awesome. Because I think he says, like, we're going to be nice to your mother today. You're on Goffrey's side. I'm like, I'm not even her child. You're not my mom. I don't have to listen to you. I'm going to look at my phone in the car.

No one asked me to help. Mom, as if you're, even my long. I bet you can't even pronounce René Aversion. But that line I think is so telling where it's just like we wouldn't do very well without her, which on one level is a nice thing to say about somebody because it certainly is communicating to the daughter that just like quit having such an attitude like your mom does a lot for us. But it also keeps her in this sort of utilitarian box of like, Like, your mom is good for us because of what she does for us.

And it still doesn't allow her to sort of, like, have her own wants and desires and, and, again, it's not much. She just wants this pile of sandstone. And she's not like breaking this guy. And she's being as nice as possible. Like, is she, like, I, you really, you can fairly look at this and be like, she's kind of like, not necessarily swindling this guy. But she's like, she's definitely trying to get a good deal. And she's trying, she's definitely pressuring him. Like, that is definitely a thing.

She's definitely pressuring him. But you also get the sense of, like, how many times have they been out here? You know, he does seem fairly indecisive about what he wants to do things. At some point, she's just like, let's just like get this done. And she's also, like, inviting him out to the house and, you know, later to like have dinner with their family and whatever. And she's being kind enough that I feel like, you know, she's not. this awful harpy who's, you know, I don't know. She's trying to be neighborly, again, it's just another, it's another one of those

Kelly Reichart kind of awkward situations. This is just how people are. But in the, but when you take it in relation to the first story, to Laura Dern's story, it is another scene of a woman not quite, you know, like the conversation not quite working with a man because Jared Harris's character didn't buy that he was. you know, at a dead end until he's talking to this male personal injury lawyer and she clocks that. And here for Michelle Williams, it's kind of like we get, like we get the shots of the this man, Albert, right, like being like, oh, you're here and then having to like clear

the stuff off his couch. Like clearly they're imposing. She's imposing. But as she's talking to him, he's not really responding to her heel. He's only talking to her husband. So that's how those stories, I feel like, are connected beyond the LaGro piece. And so, and so then when you take it, you know, in that context, at least for me, I'm like, now I, now I just want Gina to get the stupid pile of sandstone. Yes. Yes. This man, like, is not even really thinking about what she's asking for. He's just not listening. And maybe even just on the base level, like, that is true. But also, he's just being annoying. She's like trying to have, like, she's being polite, but she is asking the direct questions

and moving the conversation in that direction. And he keeps being evasive. And she keeps being patient. And it's not like she's asking him for his, like, precious collection of, like, Faberje A. Or, like, his dead wife's jewelry or something. Right. His mementos or whatever. It's a pile of sandstone bricks in his yard that he's not doing. anything with it is a simple yes or no question she is happy to sit there and talk to you about

other things but can you give her an answer yeah yeah but she's so type a so we are already our defenses are up against her because we're like what is she up to what is she you know what she trying to do which i think is a fascinating frame for this whole thing absolutely and it's funny like it sitting in the tension of it is funny yeah and it does like like like you were saying earlier, Joe, like, we're being, we're being invited to just, like, kind of keep judging her and trying to figure out, like, whether we should be on her side. Because I don't, like, she, she digs a hole for herself when they're out of the car. And she's like, you're, you know, to James the Gros, she's like, you're on, you're always on her side. You always make me the

bad person. It's like, well, where do you want this conversation to go, you know, where do you what do you want to? Right. Right. That's the other thing. She's not, she's not some, like, a grieved person either. We're like, she's, she does not make it easy for herself always. And that's, and, and that makes it even more satisfying, I think. And I think she also is one of those people who, like, I'll do it myself because I ultimately don't trust anybody around me to do it. You know, she's going to, I'm going to walk down all the way to the end of this driveway to get the fence post myself. And I will be the one to, you know what I mean? It's just like, that's, which is, you know, a element of control.

Right? It's a very recognizable person. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. I'm sometimes this, but I know. Am I'm pretty sure I'm this woman. I'm pretty sure I'm this woman. Yeah. Like, I need you to help me, but I will do it myself. No, but I need your help. No, but don't help me. Like, I figured this out myself, Guthrie. But I need you to help me. I need you to help me. I didn't like it. Yes. It's true, though. It's so true. But it's, I think Michelle's so. good. Incredible. And this is the same year as Manchester by the C. She wins the New York film critics supporting actress, and they mentioned both movies, which is, I think, cool and smart and good.

Yep, yep, totally. Well, she's somebody who has, her career is so fascinating to me because, especially, she starts off at the exact same place that Katie Holmes starts off, right, with Dawson's Creek. And so it's so easy to sort of, like, track their careers. And I remember, there's this thing I will always remember, which is when Dawson's Creek was first starting out in its first year, and MTV News, which I watched religiously faithfully, had a on-set interview with the four of them about, like, the phenomenon of Dawson's Creek and how it was blowing up. I think it was like early second season because she had already sort of like her first season she has this very sort of like

shoulder length like blonde hair or whatever and then the second season she'd like cut it short because she was like a little bit more of a wild child Is season two when she falls off the pier because she's drunk or something? Yeah. Because her friend dies. Oh right.

The friend falls off the pier. Yeah, the friend falls off the pier and dies but then Michelle Williams like goes down a bad path because like she's grieving and she doesn't know how to deal with it. Right. Mary Bethiel, Emmy, robbed. Honestly, say it. But so the dynamic in the first season, of course, was, from the very first episode, was like, Dawson and Joey, best friends from down the creek, she's pining for him, he's oblivious,

and then Michelle Williams is like the pretty blonde girl who moves in with her grandmother next door, and he's infatuated with her. So that's the dynamic for pretty much the whole first scene. And so in this interview with MTV, the one thing that I always remember Michelle Williams being like, she like literally just like turns to the camera to talk to the fans. And she's like, listen, I know you hate me. I get it. Like I just like, just understand that I'm playing a character. And like, and you know, and you could tell it was just this thing of just like the fans were probably really overinvested and really sort of like, you know, probably a contingent of people who are really sort of like mean and nasty. to her. But she ended up being, I was somebody who sort of like, I waned a little bit in the middle of Dawson's Creek, but I definitely like stuck through it to the end. The college years are not so great.

Sorry, Busy. Well, they do add Busy Phillips, who I think is tremendously good on that show. But yes. But then the end, sort of like spoiler alert for like a decades old show. People hated her so much. They have to kill that. She dies at the end of the series. And already by that point.

And Dawson and Joey don't even end up together. No. No, because by that point the show had decided that Pacey and Joey were the couple to root for, which is true. So at least the show showed an ability to pivot. But even by that point with Michelle Williams, I remember thinking like she's so far and away the best actor on this show. And it was gratifying then when she kind of like leaped off of that to become because I remember that like when by the time she's doing like, Because she was doing, like, you know, Dick and but I'm a cheerleader and sort of stuff while Dawson's Creek is on. But then Brokeback Mountain comes along and it's this like significant leap up and all of a sudden she's getting awards buzz and whatever. And it's, it feels. And there's even like shades of snobbery out there like, well, they're not going to nominate someone who was on Dawson's Creek for an Oscar. And they did and it was so gratifying because I was like, good. Like good for Michelle Williams.

And then her career from there becomes this like really interesting. interesting. She's working with so many cool filmmakers in roles sort of like big and small, right? Where she's like, she's in, she works with Todd Haynes and I'm not there. And she works with Charlie Kaufman. And then that's her first Rye card is like right there in 2008 with Wendy and Lucy. And then it's Derek C in France. And she's in Shutter Island for Scorsese. And she's, you know, and the nominee, she ends up getting like a bunch of Oscar nominations. Most of which, I think, are really good. I don't like my week with Marilynne very much, and I don't know if it's not a very popular movie.

But at the same time, she's doing like, Take This Waltz with Sarah Polly, and she's fucking great at that one. Oh, that one. And she like... Have we done to Take This Waltz episode? I feel like we did. No, we haven't yet. No, we just talked about that movie too much. We talk about it all the time.

Love Take This Wall. It's so good. That'll be your next, your next appearance on this set up. down to only do Michelle Williams movies. That's fine by me. And so it's definitely like, she's not making a ton of, like the Venoms don't come until like pretty late in the game or whatever.

She does like, Oz the Great and Powerful, but like so does Rachel Weiss. Like we can't really hold it against these actresses. But she just keeps giving like these banger performances, these like really good performances. Even in mainstream things. She does like her freakazoid performance. in I feel pretty in a movie that otherwise we would have totally forgotten about,

if not for her fucking crazy performance. And some point around, like, Blue Valentine, My Week with Marilyn, she sort of adopts this speaking style in interviews that is very kind of, it's sort of placid. It's very kind of, it's a little affected, right? It's a little sort of like, I don't know, sort of like demure. and kind of reserved. And I think a lot of it, I mean, I think Keith Ledger dying was a big thing.

I think it on just not even just on a level of like him being her sort of, you know, this great love of hers and the father of her daughter. But also I think the way that it made the press sort of hyper focus on her and her daughter made her become sort of necessarily very protective. while, like, she was still, like, living in Brooklyn. That's sort of the kind of amazing thing was she had to sort of shelter her daughter while not, like, physically sort of taking her away to some, like, secluded location. So I imagine she had to, like, become a very sort of, like, guarded person in the press.

And every time you hear her talk, at least for me, I sort of expect her with that voice to be sort of pretentious and sort of like airy-fairy and whatever, and yet she, the content of whatever she talks about, like, she's, like, she's incredibly sharp, she's incredibly on the ball, and she has incredibly sharp artistic instincts. And I mean, you look at her Emmy speech, too, which is like one of the best award speeches in the past decade, you know. I see this as an acknowledgement of what is possible when a woman is trusted to discern her own needs, feels safe enough to voice them and respected enough that they'll be heard. When I asked for more dance classes, I heard yes, more voice lessons, yes, a different wig,

a pair of fake teeth not made out of rubber, yes. And all of these things, they require effort and they cost more money, but my bosses never presumed to know better than I did about what I needed in order to do my job and honor Gwen Verdon. And so I want to say thank you so much to FX and to Fox 21 Studios. for supporting me completely and for paying me equally because they understood, because they understood that when you put value into a person,

it empowers that person to get in touch with their own inherent value, and then where did they put that value? They put it into their work. And so the next time a woman, and especially a woman of color, because she stands to make 52 cents on the, compared to her white male counterpart, tells you what she needs in order to do her job, listen to her, believe her, because one day she might stand in front of you and say thank you

for allowing her to succeed because of her workplace environment and not in spite of it. And it's very practical talking about like, you know, we're not just talking about, you know, listen to women because, just to say it, like, there are. This will help make our performances better if you, you know, acknowledge our needs on set. If you, you know, listen to us, like, your shows and films or whatever will be better for, you know, listening to people's, you know, people's needs in this situation. And sort of came into it from a point of gratitude. It wasn't even just sort of like a point of complaint. It was like, thank you to, you know, FX for when I said that I needed extra time to work on my, you know, dialect or whatever, they gave it to me.

and they sort of, you know, they, it's a really good speech. I should, if I have time, I'll throw in a clip from it. But I just find her to be just a terribly, terribly interesting artist in, you know, regardless of sort of anything else that's going on. And I think it comes through in so many of her performances. And I'm just really happy. I'm really happy that she's sort of made this career for herself. Yeah, I wonder, too, if like,

She has an unusual trajectory, right? Like, she's from Montana. She's, like, she doesn't necessarily grow up in the art world. She just loves theater. I don't know. There's something pure about that that I think, like, make certain actors become the actors they are. And she, it's kind of, she's one of those, like, accidental, like, accidental leading ladies, I want to say, when, like, what she does is such good character work. Yeah. It's wild that she's from Montana.

Lily's from Montana, and obviously the movie's sort of taking place in Montana. And yeah, she's from Florida. And Kelly Rikart's from Florida. It's crazy. It's crazy. Well, there is an element of, and like other filmmakers like Chloe Jow have talked about this, where it's like you go into a place that you're not from, and if you have a certain curiosity about it, that just bleeds over into the movie, too, right? Like, I think Rikart as an outsider in this type of environment and making these movies that are so immersive to their environment.

Like, in part of some of her interviews, she's talked about how, like, when filming this movie, she discovered that the wind sounds different in different places, in different locations. So they tried to capture that feeling of different wind sounds happening. You've never done that, Chris. You've never captured different wind sounds. I do it often.

It's very calming. Your go-to hobby, Joe? I'm not going to make a fart, Joe. I appreciate your restraint, Chris. Thank you. To talk a little bit about, to loop it back, I guess, to Williams or to put the button on it, this being the same year, the same Sundance, even, as Manchester by the sea, you know, that's kind of like the full Williams spectrum in two performances, right?

And there are two brief performances at that. Like, you know, Manchester by the sea is... Go ahead. I was just going to... It's the tragic end of the spectrum. I don't know. I think the one end of the William spectrum is I feel pretty... No, no, no.

Yep. Maybe the Fablemans. Wait, no. We got quadrants here. We actually have quadrants. Yeah, it's not just linear. It's not just linear. It's not just linear.

There's an X and Y accent. It is the William spectrum is a three-dimensional space. Yep, yep. Totally. It is, though. It's totally true. Of tragedy to comedy, big choices to minutia. And then Venom is on its island. Yeah. Venom's on its little island. Yep. Totally right.

Venom is a liminal space. Yes. Venom is the first cow floating on the plot. It was a money maker. It was also imported. No, I have no idea, but I like. Yeah. Well, and you look at.

There's that big scene in Manchester by the sea, the one that sort of, you know, got clipped all the time with her and Casey Affleck sort of having this. Because their whole, it's a movie that sort of like it flashes back to when they were married. But obviously in the present timeline, they're estranged and they had this horrible tragedy happen. And they're not able to really, they haven't been able to talk to each other since then. Like this is sort of, you know, their, you know, communication is sort of completely shut down. And so the part that everybody clips is this big sort of like. like, shouty sort of, you know, they're not arguing even. They're almost sort of just like shouting forgiveness at each other. But it builds up from this very kind of reticent thing where, like, he doesn't really say anything. And she's trying to maybe get him to, like, even just, like, sort of look at her. And the whole scene is, is really remarkable. And it's one of those things where she's got the accent.

And, you know, there's, you know, this huge tragedy that they're talking about. And they're talking about these big sort of themes about like, you got to forgive yourself and, you know, which all can seem, you know, could lend itself towards this very kind of Hollywoody over the top cliche of like an Oscar clip or whatever. And of course it was an Oscar clip. But you, I feel like her performance especially, well, their performances together, because I think he is for as much as, you know, you want to say about Casey Affleck, I think he's quite good in that movie. their performance is kind of bust past this barrier of cynicism, I think, in that, like, you sort of have your... Because it's kind of this impossible scene, right? Because it feels so acting classy, what they're asked to do. I think that's a great way to put it as acting classy, yes. Like, they're asked to do this kind of Herculean thing that's impossible to make natural and they somehow do.

Yeah, yeah. I feel that way about a lot of her performances, which is probably why, you know, like, it's like, yeah, she's known for trash. Like, but that's also, it's kind of also what she does in Blue Valentine, right? Like, I, I'd argue she's, I'd argue their, like, Gosling is not as strong as Affleck was in his film, but she, but she has a way of just making something that does feel like some, like, acting class exercise turn into actually something raw that, that, yeah. Yeah. And if we ever do talk about Take This Waltz, I think. that's a movie where I think the writing sort of meets her at this level of like going to a place you wouldn't really expect because it does, it sort of avoids a lot of those big sort of arguments. And it allows her to sort of come to her, you know, great revelations in these other ways that is equally, I think, really rewarding. And that movie was not understood in its own time.

I remember there were like some really negative reactions to take this wall. And I remember seeing it almost as if the, you know, male critics get it wrong. I was going to say, I've got the jar. There's just no other. I've got the heterosexuality jar here. It's just like, maybe all of you reviewing this are misogynists. I do also wonder if in a post-challengers world, We are just better at considering relationships that are complex among three people.

I don't know. We're in a post-Challengers world where Thruples thrive. Challenger's not the first film that's ever tackled this, but I do feel like it opens up door. We are in a post-challenger's world where everyone has a country referee, you know, judging all of their choices. Their chair umpires, Chris, their chair umpires. It's fine. It's fine.

I mean, it is like... I'm glad we're talking about Michelle because it is kind of hard to think of a good comp. Like, here I am saying she's like an accidental leading lady when it's like, oh, a petite blonde woman having a hard time in Hollywood. Like, her choices make her fascinating. I don't know who's a good comp for her. Like a Kirsten Dunst? I don't know. And she looks down on none of it.

She doesn't look down on Dawson's Creek. She doesn't look down on Venom. Yep. I think that's a big part of it. I think that's a big part of it is that ultimately she's, you know, she's in it in a way that you don't always expect because she does sort of look like Mia Farrow or something like that. You know what I mean? Like she just has that sort of, you know, little Hollywood Sprite sort of look to her. In the effort of time, we should move on to the third story with Lily Gladstone and Kristen Stewart. Kristen Stewart, who I think got maybe some of the most headlines for being in this movie, because this is the era of like, Twilight's over. Now she's doing these indie movies. Right.

I think this was around that time where people started to come around on Kristen Stewart because there was a lot of that, like, post-Twilight backlash where, and like, I was as guilty of it as a lot of people. I was really sort of annoyed by her persona during Twilight, and it was. Um, you know, I probably had my own sort of hangups about it that I had to get past or whatever. Um, and it wasn't until, I mean, like, I loved her in something like Adventureland and I loved her in the runaways and like that kind of stuff. Well, personal shopper, you know, comes, you know, well later. Same year.

Same year as this. Um, it was. Same year. Yes. at least at the, at the festivals. I'm not sure exactly when it had its actual release. And I think by the time, so 2014 is Clouds of Sils Maria. And I think that's the real sort of like moment for,

we're like the tipping point for I think most people. And that's the same year also. Oh, yeah, she did. Sorry. For Clouds of Sils Maria. Yeah. And that's the same year also is Still Alice, which I think is an underrated Kristen Stewart performance.

I think she's really wonderful. That whole ensemble is underrated. I agree. I agree. I think Alec Baldwin's quite good in that movie. But I think so, I think by the time you hit certain women, yeah, I think we are definitely in a very, you know, Kristen Stewart positive place. And this is also around the time that you are starting to, and certainly this had been going on for quite a while. But I think this is at some point, I think mainstream or even just like mainstream cinephiles sort of clocked to the idea that like Kristen Stewart is a goddess among,

lesbians in this country and in this sort of, you know, in this environment. And because there was the whole thing for a while, and I remember this very clearly, we're like, you could not even tangentially tweet something about Kristen Stewart in any direction without being absolutely swarmed by replies and retweets and quote tweets and whatever. And, like, she just had an absolute army. It was insane. It's not just the Twilight people.

She did not court. Yes. It's not just the Twilight people. This is what I was looking up. It was the Twilight stuff, but then also the Snow White and the Huntsman stuff, the affair stuff. And the current president just constantly tweeting about her. Oh, God, remember that? Yeah.

Then I think once she did all these other films and really countered that image and was good in those films and then hosts S&L shortly after the festival. run of these 2016 films and comes out and is just like, I'm so gay. I was going to say, by the way, I'm like super gay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was great. That's quite the arc for her. So we're meeting her right at the spot where she's really like building her power. She is one of those like celebrities who really made the most of her SNL stuff too. Like that Totino's pizza rolls sketch is not only like super funny, but it also is just like, it throws gasoline on the fire of, like, the whole Kristen Stewart thing, right? Where it's just like, it's super queer, it's super hot.

It's just like, it's super like European Cann Film Festival coded or whatever. It's great. It's so great. She's really good on SNL. Like, for somebody who for so long seems to be sort of diametrically opposed to having a sense of humor about her career, for probably very good reasons. That was always the problem that I had with her. It was just like, if this is so miserable for you, then, like, don't do this for a living. But I certainly feel like, especially now, it's like she, when she does, when she is sort of, you know, in a context where she can really let her sense of humor go, I think she's so charming on a show like SNL.

Like, she's in multiple. Have you ever seen that sketch? Well, she's out of the frenzy now. She's out of Forks, Washington. She's out of forks, finally. She's out of forks. Have you ever seen the sketch where A.D. Bryant has bought the really expensive paint to paint her house with. And Beck Bennett is her brother and Kristen Stewart's her sister-in-law.

And they've come over to visit. And Beth, Tom isn't mad. We're just a little worried about you. Oh, don't you effing judge me right now. Beth, I know we haven't always gone along, but we haven't been around much. because of the baby. Oh, that baby's not even his. What?

Beth, that's not what we're talking about right now. We're talking about Pharaoh and Ball. I'm not talking about Pharaoh and Ball anymore. I'm talking about how that baby has your traitor's eyes. Are you drunk? Yeah. And they finally realized that, like, this paint was, like, thousands of dollars a gallon imported from Europe and whatever.

And it just, it just evolves into an, Eddie Bryant's, like, Amy Bryant's the, you know, the funny one in that. But it's, um, Kristen Stewart, you know, sort of keeps up with her in a way that I'm just like, yes, this is really good. I watch that all the time. It's so funny. She's great. Kristen Stewart directing her first movie, possibly going to show up at Cannes at this point. Oh, that makes a ton of sense.

That makes a ton of sense. What is it called? Something about water. It does not. It's the way of chronology of water. Hell yeah. The chronology of water. of Water is so funny.

That's not even her title. That's a book. That's based on a book that's called that. Oh, dear. I love that. With, you know who's in this movie? From Canada, the chronology of water. Thorough Birch is in that movie.

I'm always saying whatever happened to Thorough Birch. So I'm really interested to see an image in Putes. But in this third story, there is like also the real Oscar narrative for this movie, too, because it's this huge breakthrough for Lily Gladstone, which she would go on to have yet another breakthrough, but, like, Lily Gladstone wins major critics prizes, is Gotham nominated, is Indy Spirit nominated? Yep.

What an incredible performance. And puts herself on the map, too, is like, because she's, she, ultimately, she's a Montana native, right? She's, uh, uh, grew up on the Blackfeet reservation. There's a specific modifier for Blackfeet Native American that she is, and she's also part in his purse and then European from her mother's side, whatever. But she's local to Montana, and her only other real experience in movies were other productions that, like, filmed in Montana. She's in this movie from that French director whose name I can never pronounce.

Thank you. There you go. Where classic French, it's a movie about a Blackfoot Native American character, played by Benicio del Toro, who is Puerto Rican. God bless the French for being on the ball when it comes to cultural sensitivities. And strangely, at some point Benicio del Toro starts going. Emilio Oh, no. All right, we have not had a chance

to talk about that moment at the Oscars. Oh, body chills. You can't. It's the funniest thing that's ever happened. It's so funny. The second she started singing, I was like, we're doing this. We're doing this.

And thank you to Amelia. Amelia. Happy family. We're going straight to hell. It's so great. We are driving this car till the wheels fall off. It's great. Right.

It's also because Jacques is just, like, walking around behind them with his silly little cap off. The whole thing is a farce, like, go home. Well, and it explains the whole Amelia Perez thing, too. It's just like, these are who we've been dealing with this whole time. Yes, a French white lady going. She also did that at the tail end of a very rambling, very French speech. Yes.

And you just know that when they were told that none of the songs were getting performed at the Oscars this year, this is what came to mind. She was like, when we win, when we win, we're going to have our moment. I will sing and they will hear it and they will finally. understand just when you thought it was safe to get back in the water we go honestly best oscar ceremony in years and that is not a small part of why i love it so much it was so great um but anyway so this is only her like third feature film lily gladstone um she already looks and this is only this is not even a decade old she looks so young in this movie she looks like a just a baby, and really makes that work for her because the way that so much of this part

of the movie is carried on her face, the look on her face, when I'm going to say clomp clomp, clomp again, when she clomp clomp clomp around the corner on that horseback to give. So proud of that horse. She's so proud of not only that horse, but she's also just like, she's so proud of like being that, like, the gallant sort of, you know, date showing up to pick up her lady on a horse, she's just like, it's all on her face. It's so incredible. And you know she's setting herself up for a fall is the other thing.

There's this youthful naivete that she doesn't even really know what she's feeling or what she's doing, that she's like, that this is a full court press for this woman, you know. Right. Like she doesn't even even it's like no matter what happens in the end it's that that feeling of just like this is someone I want to spend time with that rush of we all know that feeling right that rush of like first early connection with somebody where it's just like I you know all I want to do right now is to like talk to this person at a diner you know what I mean and just sort of like spend some time in this person's company and it's it's really really lovely. And also just like the way that Kelly Rikart films her scenes on the farm,

right? Where it's just this like vast open space and it's just her and like the horses or like her and that's just like just her and like... Don't forget the corgi. But she's not supposed to be some sort of like recluse or whatever. It's just

sort of the realities of living in this great big open space is sometimes it means not being around a lot of people all the time. And when you are a young queer person, that's even more pronounced because it's like, this is probably like, probably not an exaggeration to say like, this might be like the one queer girl she's met in months over a year. You know what I mean? Just like you just don't have the opportunity to meet new people like this very often.

And so... Well, there's something so true of, you know, this is a young queer person. potentially experiencing their first queer flirtation. Certainly seems that way. Yeah. Queer self-awareness even. You know, there's something so true about the level of vulnerability and the level of not really knowing what she's doing before she's putting one foot in

front of the other in this situation. Yeah. That, like, the amount of queer people that I've talked to specifically about this performance that it's like, that. gutted me because like so many people can recognize that first uh you know those first like sparks of a fire you know before you even realize that about yourself yep yep i love the way you put that because it's also she's also there because it's a winter job right she says like like she doesn't know anybody there she truly does it and all of those shots of the vistas and the snow just kind of

hammer home how isolated she is. And it's not necessarily sad. It's just cold. Well, and so much of Christian Stewart's character feels like she's more like sadly isolated. She has to drive four hours to go. And eight finger quotes, teach this class. Yes, the thing is like so much of that is just, it's so quotidian with her, right, where it's just like, I didn't know how long this commute was going to be.

I don't know where to get a bike to eat. Like, you know, I parked my car over here. I'm going to get home at two in the morning and have to be up at five to work again. I thought it was Belgrade, but it turned out to be some other name of the city, Belfrey. And the people that she's like trying to teach a class to are asking things that have absolutely nothing to do with her. And it's the funniest thing in the movie. Is she teaching teachers? Is she teaching a class to other teachers?

She's like doing like date law, like education law. Like education law. And, like, they're like, how do I get a raise? Yeah. What if I want a parking spot? You should take that up with your union. And it's like there's this one guy who, like, Kelly Reichart never even lets him finish his question before cutting away. And every cut away from his stupid fucking question is so funny.

Marcelli and Hugo barely gets a line in this movie. But, like, you could just tell by the look on her face that, like, she has a list of grievances with her students. that she's ready to air at any moment. And she, there is this moment where she kind of is like, we all know each other. And obviously excluding Lily, right? And it's just like, oh, okay, this like, this group of people you don't want in the room. The scene where Lily is in the classroom and Kristen Stewart has left the job and the substitute comes in.

And she, of course, like, gets up and leaves. And she leaves as the guy is saying, like, I am also, as will come up in conversation, recently divorced, and, like, cut right on that line. And it's so funny. It's so funny. I mean, I mentioned earlier that this, every time I watch this movie, it's like you're gathering more details. But there's also details you kind of forget about. Every time I rewatch this movie, I am struck by, I always think that they have way fewer times in the diner than they.

they actually do. Yeah. They have like four dates. And like, you know, as far as Jamie is concerned, those are dates. Those are dates. You know, like even if Jamie wouldn't say the words that was a date. But what's happening emotionally to Jamie is like, oh, I've gone on several dates with this. Certainly by the time she's picking you up on her horse.

Oh, no. Like you've, like, you're on a date. And that's why you can see subtleties of Kristen Stewart trying to be like, I can't tell if she thinks that we're on a date. do I need to weasel out of this? She probably should have, by that point, maybe put up a little bit more of a wall, you know, at least, like, make a couple, like, verbal notes of, like, she's definitely more emotionally aware of what's happening than Jamie is. Yeah, well, she's, you know, you can tell she's a little bit older,

and she's certainly from a bigger town, seemingly. And, um, just sort of feels like she has, you know, you get the sense that she has more experience. But still then, when they have that last scene in the parking lot, when, you know, Lily's sort of, you know, tracked her down in the city. And Lily has that line about, like, well, I couldn't, like, I didn't want to, like, not see you again or whatever. And it's just like, oh, girl. It's so sad.

It's because you know there's absolutely no doubt. doubt in your mind, even the first time you're watching this movie, that, like, Kristen Stewart is going to have to reject her in some way. Like, the Kristen Stewart is not going, is not into, you know, a relationship with this. And you're just sort of just like, oh, it's going to be so devastating. Yeah, it's, I just, just to look up the line exactly, because it is like, she kind of like word vomits it. So she goes, like, I just knew. Oh, she says, I don't mean to keep you from getting to work or anything.

I just knew if I didn't start driving. I wasn't going to see you again. I didn't want that. Yeah. That's all. Which is like, well, oh no. Right. Well, and then it just sort of like gets left hanging there. And because you're dealing with Kristen Stewart and a Kristen Stewart character, no matter who she is, is just not going to be incredibly verbose.

And so you know that like she's going to leave her on some note of like, Words unspoken, right? And it's just like, oh, it's so crushing. It's crushing. And then you get this long-tracking shot of, you know, Lily Gladstone just wordlessly driving away and the camera just stays on her face and it's just like shattering every single person in the audience one by one.

Well, then she doses off. She dozes off. Because she's been up all goddamn night. Well, okay, so this is... I don't know. No. No, it just sort of... The Trump's sort of like softly comes to a stop.

Into it, you know? Into Monta. Yeah. What did you say, Chris? I was like, there's this vein of hope to it, too. But I also think... Into the open yonder? My favorite sequence in this movie is the night before she actually does see Kristen Stewart. I think it's so beautiful when she's just walking around the town.

She missed her, but she'll stay overnight so that she can see her. And it's like, she's just walking around the town. She's like looking in bars, seeing people hang out. It's a beautiful town. Other people live in their lives. The sound of that specific kind of wind that Kelly Reichardt noticed. But it's just, it's beautiful, it's quiet, and Jamie seems happy. And it's in this other town where more people happen to be.

Come to town every once in a while, girl. Like find a bar, find a, you know, find a place to listen to music. There is something queer about that, too, where it's just like, girl, this could be your life. Like, you could just. move here. Yeah. Be happy. And, like, you could be one of those people in that par. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't, she never looks afraid, right? Like, she, she looks kind of at peace by herself. She, she never. And she's still young enough that, like, she's not locked into anything. You know what I mean? Like, she does have, she's, you know, she has responsibilities or whatever,

but it's, you know, she's, she's young. And she's, and this is the first time, probably the first time. That's what we're gleaning from this, right? That's, She really was brave. Yeah. And she said it. And even though, and that's why it's not, it's not this tragic story, really, because even though she said it and she was rejected and she wasn't exactly. Anyway, all that happens is she dozes off at the wheel and she lands in a, like, softly in a field. And then the next time we see her, she's just back at work, right?

Like there's, it's just like life goes on. This place carries on. You survive rejection. You survive rejection, you've dozed off on the road and nothing, none the worst for wear. None the worst. But you had this experience. And now, you know, you've had this. Yeah, you know what it's like to ask a question that was trapped in your head and you couldn't ask it until the next date about why, you know, Kristen would have been unhappy selling shoes. Like you. She's acquired the emotional sandstone that she can use to build the while of her new life. Well, there is something so specific that in these three stories that, you know, it feels like Kelly Reichard, though they're based on stories, but Kelly Reichardt is like making a choice to make it from Jamie's perspective, because if we got it from Kristen Stewart's perspective, it would be kind of like, in a way, a reiteration of the first story, you know, of this person who has, you know, maybe been too much. I have to handle them in a way. But by the choice of making it, Jamie, it feels like there's this cyclical, reconciliatory, you know, arc, emotional arc to the movie, even if it is three separate stories.

Yeah. Yeah. And I just think it's like, all of it is about, everything is about care, right, in this film. It is just like people admitting to needing some form of care or people seeking. seeking it but not fully understanding what form it should take. And it culminates, like, I think it's right that this is the third story we get and that it is one that really feels like it is so full of just the joy of discovering what you might want. Like, what a wonderful feeling, even if you're rejected. Yep. No, it's totally true. And it's all on Lily's face,

just to go back, just to loop back to Lily. Like, it's fucking incredible. incredible performance. It's such a, that shot, the tracking shot you were talking about. You know, overall also, another, like, just another through line to this film is like, Kelly Reikart, great car scenes. Like, great car scenes. Yes, true. Yes, true. We've got this final one.

We've got the one with Michelle Williams is the one in which she is not in the car. And he's backing it up and saying, you know, like, be nice to your mom. And then in the first, I guess, you know, they're in the car and she threatens to toss them on the side of the road. It's a variety of experiences. Yeah. Cars are great. But no, it's love that. Do we have anything else we want to mention awards-wise for this movie?

So she's nominated for the Indy Spirit Award. She loses to Molly Shannon, which that's one of those fun indie spirit categories where there's no crossover with the Oscars that year. So truly, like, anybody could have won. She's nominated against Riley Keough and American Honey, who if she wasn't on my ballot, then she was close to it. Paulina Garcia and Little Men who was definitely on my ballot. Definitely on my ballot, too. Molly Shannon, I said, for other people. And then Edwina Finley for Free Indeed, which is a movie I did not see. Shirley, have you seen Little Men, Irisax's Little Men? Oh, it's good. Oh, if you want to shatter your heart into a million pieces. You should watch that. It's also, though, fun. It's not just, like, straight up devastating.

It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun as well. It's a very good. And it's like 85 minutes. Yeah. On the list. And like a perfect little New York movie. If you're ever sort of, I don't know if you miss living in New York, but if you ever are, then fire that one. I do. When we were talking about one fine day earlier, it did occur to me like, you know, I kind of want to rewatch that because that is a, that probably set, that set me on a path to be like, I want to live in New York one day. Totally, totally. Go to Central Park. So New York movies. It's great. Give them. Give them to me. And then Kelly Rikard is nominated at the Spirits for Best Director in a really good best director lineup with Barry Jenkins for Moonlight, who wins.

Andrea Arnold for American Honey, Pablo Lorraine for Jackie, and Jeff Nichols for Loving. Like, that's a good group right there. That's really solid. 2016 is a really good year for movies, I have to say. Great year for movies. Underrated really good. 2016 into 2017, like those two years, like America was going through it. But like, otherwise, like, there were some really good movies, especially those two years, I thought.

Yeah. And this all culminates in another staggering Oscars ceremony. Yes. So I love it. Where was the Amelia songwriters for that one? I watched that part of God. Mark Platt comes out and is like, Emilio. Mark Platt's got enough to deal with right now, reputation-wise.

I rewatched the Moonlight Lala Land thing again recently. I can't remember what, but I ended up doing the thing that I always do, which is Zeproitering my way through the reactions to it because, like. Oh, yeah, you spent a whole day in the group chat. Michelle and Busy are like right up there in front of that photograph of the front row. Taraji with her phone, Tarashi with her phone. Taraji is like, yep, filming the whole. whole thing with her phone. But like Glenn Powell is there and like, which feels like a time machine

kind of a thing, but he was in hidden figures. It's, it really is. It sort of puts, I wrote before the Oscar ceremony this year because it was the 10 year anniversary, I did a very short sort of punchy blog post about how it was the anniversary of the Ellen photo, Ellen group photo from that one year, which is such a haunted object in so many ways. If you look at that now, it's like Brad and Angelina. Kevin Spacey. Kevin Spacey dead center. Ellen. Um, Julia Roberts looking like her head is disembodied and sort of like floating in the ether space. Isn't Jennifer Lawrence like this? Like, yeah. Yep. Yep. It's the weirdest thing. Good for Peter Diongo for fighting his life too. Like that's, you know, really incredible. But so, and that was of course

this like, um, engineered thing, right? Like the whole idea of it was like, let's break Twitter or whatever. Like, that's set the record for most retweets. And, like, meanwhile, this completely accidental moment of Moonlight and La La Land, which has, like, even, like, so much better people watching in terms of just, like, every time they cut to the audience, you're just like, DeF Patel and his mom, like, what's going on? Like, who's, like, what do they think of what's going on? It's great. It's super great.

It is so great. Oh, that's what it was, is I came to it because one of the, one of the producers from La La Land was a producer on, was it the Brutalist was a producer on something this year. And it was the one who gave the speech after he found out that they didn't really win. The one, the French guy who was just like, je ma'am ma'am, papa, whatever. And then it was like, he didn't, he, yeah, I don't, whatever. And then he's like, we lost, by the way.

And it's just like, and. To the nation of France, we have a new moniker for you. we apologize. Sorry. We like your movies, we swear. But it was this great of like Three Little Pigs, sort of like Goldilocks thing of just like

Mark Platt, who is objectively a villain in most context, but was like innocent in that moment because he didn't know what was going on. Then the villain who thanked his mom and papa, who knew that they lost and gave a speech anyway.

And then what's his name, Jordan Horowitz, who was like the hero of the moment who was like, Moonlight, you have one best picture. And it was just like, you know, showing not a joke. This is not a joke. Yes, which is great because he like wanted to like be the emcee of that moment so bad. And like Jimmy Kimmel is like, I got a job to do. And it's just like, Warren.

Whoa, blah, blah. And it's just like, get out of here. Jimmy Kimmel. Jordan Horowitz has this. In your investigations, I know we're running so long, but like did you, do you, okay, because I've also rewatched it a couple of times since just like on a whim or whatever. But I never see where Faye goes. Where does Faye Dunaway go?

Disappears into a trap. Oh, she hides. She hightails it, yes. Remember in the, like, oral history of that? She gets into, like, a limo and leaves. Oh, my God. No, she was, like, back, this was in one of the reports. Yeah.

She was backstage eating from a bowl of cashews being like, I don't understand what the problem is. I didn't do anything wrong. Abusing every gay PA in a two-mile radius. She called Mark Platt a little homosexual. Boy. But truly, like, she's not in any of the footage. I, like, you can hear her go because, yeah, there's the audio of him going, of Warren Beatty going, but it says Emma Stone. And you hear her go, what? And then when, by the time the camera cuts back to the stage, she's like gone. She's gone. She's absolutely gone. It's incredible. Like, to leave on what? And then just be like, I don't want to find out what else is going on. But the best part is you're watching the speeches happen.

And while Mark Platt is giving his speech, it's like calm, calm. And then all of a sudden, it's like, everybody's look in which way. And like chaos is happening around. And like people are zipping this way and that. And like somebody with a headset is going like, do, do, do, jid, and then like, somebody else is just going. It's just like, it's incredible. It's live television at its finest. Yes.

And the PWC. guy who's like, like, Timu, Matt Damon, like, also appears, right? On the fringes of, like, you're, you're just kind of like, what? Who's that? Timu Matt Damon. Yes. Meanwhile, but for an accident of timing, it could have been actual Matt Damon's, or, no, it would have been, yes, it would have been Casey Affleck's envelope. So they would have said, mistakenly, Manchester by the sea.

So, like, Matt Damon would have gone up to, like, accept the, like, producer or whatever. It's true. Oscar. And, like, oh, I don't know. The dominoes are fascinating on that one. It is one of those things where I'm like, oh, man, I actually would love to see all the other parallel universe versions. Like, it's chaos no matter what. Yes, exactly, exactly.

Oh, incredible. The universe where Uper won for L. And they read that envelope and they're like, ha, ha. Yeah, what? Exactly. But I truly, I mean, just to, like, to borrow Chris's phrasing, like, to loop it back to Michelle Williams and back to certain women, she is in the front row, isn't she? She's with Busy Phillips. Her and busy.

Oh, yeah. Like, no, busy is like fully slack-jawed and like, uh, what? Like, what's going on? It's great. In one of the wide shots, you can see Merrill says, what the fuck. Well, and there's that shot of Nicole Kidman being like, Barry, you did it. And it's just like, it's great. It's so great.

Yeah, Keith Urban there with his like flat ironed hair as normal, just sort of like oblivious to everything that's going on. Crying. Anytime that man's in an audience, I assume he's crying. It makes me think of, it wasn't that one obviously, but like, of course, like Busy Phillips famously has attended the Oscars with Michelle Williams at all of Michelle's nominations or whatever. And I think she was on Twitter one time when somebody was talking about that moment when Crash beat Brokeback Mountain for Best Pickers. And she responded to somebody, and she's like, one of the winners stepped on my foot on their way up to the stage. He's like, it was already bad enough. And then one of them stepped on my foot on the way to the stage. That's great.

And I'm like, man, we all felt that way. I love a low stakes blind item. Who was it? Absolutely. The best kind. Yeah, exactly. Terrence Howard, was it you? Matt Dillon?

What, who did it? What other final notes do we have on certain women? I mean, great movie. Great movie. Great. Certain women. Certain women talk more like good women. More like good women.

More like good women. But also the word certain. I mean, just to tie it all up, right? It's like, yeah, these are select women, but also these are women who are determined. That's the Jean Chalet. And I'm certain that certain women will be one of the great movies of this year. If you have a friend that doesn't like Kelly Reichardt, Red Flag. That is true.

If you go to somebody's house and they don't have any certain women 4Ks, don't have sex with that person. I want certain women merch. Oh, my God, yes. It certainly exists. Where's my certain women tote? That poster is actually like super, like beautiful. That sort of, you know, the sketch drawings of the four of the four of. of them sort of like, you know, fuzzy around the bear of the borders and whatnot.

Oh, put that on a toast. Maybe that's what we, uh, our merch will be since we can't like make money off of our own name of a podcast by putting it on merch. Uh, maybe we just, uh, we have a tote that says, where's my circle? No, look at this tableau right now where it's like, it goes Jill Clayberg into Chris, into Francis McDormand into me into Shirley. And like, those are all our faces, but like just sort of render it artistically. But it's the certain women posting.

I love it. I also love it. I'll just look off like this. Oh, I love it. I also love the, the, the, I think I forgot this line wrong before my rewatched last night. But yeah, it's that when, when Michelle Williams goes, I'm just fine, I'm just, I'm just fine. I'm just fine. I'm just fine.

And she's doing the bird call. Look, quail. Oh, yeah. I hear them all the time. Their call is, is like, uh, it goes. Sounds like, how are you? How are you? Then the answer goes,

I'm just fine. I'm just fine. I would love, I want a shirt that says, I'm just fine. Yes, because Renee Arborchonois is like the, the, whatever, the quail sounds like this. And he's like, how are you? How are you? Yeah, it's great. And he finally responds to her.

Thus, they had a connection. They had a moment of connection over bird calls and quails. Isn't that very nice? All right. It's come to that time, Joe, would you like to explain the IMDB game to our listeners? I would love to. So every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game where we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress. And we try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most known for.

If any of those titles are television shows or voice-only performances or perhaps non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all-of-h hints. Shirley, you're our guest. You get to say how this goes. Would you like to guess first to get it out of the way? Or would you like to give first? Okay.

I'll guess first to get it out of the way because I'm afraid. Who do you want to guide you, I guess? To quiz you. Who's giving you a name? Um, I, um, I, hmm, Joe. Okay. All right. No, this is, I think you, I think this is, this is, uh, eminently fair.

Okay, so 2016 supporting actress, Lily Gladstone is sadly not nominated. The winner that year, who beats out Michelle Williams for Manchester by the sea, is Viola Davis. So Shirley Lee, can you give me Viola Davis's, known for. Is one of them TV? Is any of them TV? None of them are TV. None of them are TV.

Sorry to this How to Get Away with Murder. Okay. Sorry to How to Get Away with Murder. Sorry to Shonda. Okay. The help? Yes, the help. The, not the.

Fences? Fences. All of the fence. Honey, have you seen the fences? Is it good? I told you I was not going to have a good recall of title. Um, uh, uh, oh no. Um, um,

um, doubt? Not doubt. So that's one strike. It's a good guess, though. It is a good guess. Oscar nominations. Yep.

What has she been in? That is. Oh, I am D.B. Uh, not awards. This is where I get tripped up. What is she? Uh, oh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the, the squad, the suicide squad. Suicide squad.

No the. I would have guessed that too, but no, incorrect. So your years for your two missing movies are 2018 and 2022. I'm pretty sure the 2022 movie were. Placed Suicide Squad. Oh, interesting. I think it used to be on there. Okay.

Is it also something franchisee that's, like, big and... Neither of these are franchisee. Um, okay. Neither of these... She is the lead of both of them. She's the... I'm just going to repeat everything you say. I saw both of them...

I saw both of them first at Tiff in their respective years. Oh, um... Another fighting one. But the woman king. The woman king. Yes. That's your 2022 movie. So a 2018 movie where she's the lead,

I love this movie. Joe and I saw this together. That's right. The friend Nick Davis. I was jumping out of my seat. We were hooting and hollering. It was a great time. We love this movie.

Shoot, I should know this. She's the lead. You said that these could be big hunking movies. This is more like big honking cast. This is a huge cast. Yeah, big cast. Should have been a bigger hit than it was. Oh, wait.

Is it, um, um, yes. It's all, it's women. It is women. It is a certain bunch of women. Uh, widows. Widows. Yes. Widows could have been called certain women,

but certain women really couldn't have been called widows. That is so true. The woman king, wow, widows, the woman king. Yeah, okay, okay. We did it. Very good. You did it. Good job.

Very good job. All right, so now you will quiz Chris. Oh, God, I am sweating, though, because I was like, what could it be? What am I going to get wrong? Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, so I, I don't know, been catching up on Severance, was rewatching certain women. You can guess where this is going. It's the butt.

It's James Legrow. Man, this is going to be hard. He was so good on Severance. That's a good call. One of his titles is indeed TV-related. It is a TV mini-series. Is it Mildred Pierce? It is.

It is. Pierce. There we go. I did not. I would not have remembered him from Mildred Pierce, so that's very good. Um, I rewatched it last year. I think I'm going to watch it again. It's so good. We stand. The question is, is there going to be any more Todd Haynes? Will there be any Kelly Wright? He's actually really high build in certain women, so I'm going to guess certain women. Certain women is one of them. Very good. Yeah. Um, he has a small part of and safe, but I don't think it's going to be safe. I'll actually say good one from last year, even though it's so recent.

Ding, ding, ding. You got it. Three for three? Am I going to get a perfect score on James LaGrope? I was surprised that good one. I am too. It's very rare. This is when I screw this up because when I get to a three-fer, then I feel so much pressure

to get it right. And this is an especially difficult. It's okay. I know this should be more like, I don't know, like New York Times is connecting. where it's just like, the fourth one is a gimmee once you get the others. Joe, we need to do a reverse IMDB game again soon. We do. I feel like we missed our, we're doing them every 10 episodes.

And I think we blew past it the last time. Yeah, next time. We'll do it. God, he's in a lot of ons. I feel like it's going to be something like a big, like gangster movie, like, Boardwalk Empire, the movie. It's not quite that. Well, no, you're three for three.

I'm not giving you any hints. Yeah. Screw you. But a very good three for three. Yeah. He's so good and good one. He's, I do adore a good one. And it is funny that, like, the comparisons for good one with, like, old joy.

I'm like, well, that's why he's in this. Yeah. Yeah. I love Old Joy, too. We didn't mention Old Joy this episode. I've never seen Old Joy. I've got to see that one. It's like 80 perfect minutes of the movie.

I just, man, what am I going to say that it is? I'm just going to guess another Todd Haynes movie. I feel like he's in more of them. Dark Waters. Not Dark Waters. There we go. I knew I wasn't going to get the perfect score. This is too hard.

Fine. I know he's in saving. so I'll say safe. Not safe. So now we say the year? Yeah, the year of the missing movie. The year of the missing movie is 1989. Wow.

So it's back there. Yep. He appears to be a third build, though. He is kind of a baby. Is this like young guns? It's not young guns. Let's see. 189. Is this like a drama with young people?

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So like legal eagles. No, it's not that, not that flavor. It's very sort of indie, sort of cutting edge indie of its time. Okay. So it's like, this is pretty.

Iraqi. Would not surprise me if this, like, won the Independent Spirit Award for Best Film Day. Oh, oh, is this River's Edge? It's not River's Edge. Which is a movie I still need to see. But is that the flavor? Yes, sort of. I've never seen Rivers Edge, but it sounds about right. Is this a Gus Van Sant? It is a Gus Van Sant. It's before my own private Idaho. It's not even Cowgirls get the blues. It's the one that kind of put him on the map. Malanoche? Oh, no. Not that one. We did mention

the lead actor earlier as we were shooting the breeze. Yes. Is this? So, yeah, Malanoche is his first feature. This is his second feature. Oh, man, why do I have these out of border? What's the second Gus Van Sant? But yes, this

was, I was just looking up. This won the indie spirit for the aforementioned male lead. Drugstore Cowboy? Yeah, that's the one. Drugstore Cowboy. I don't think I've seen drugstore. I haven't either. Three for three, none of us have seen

this, but I was like, I know the Gus Van San. Yep. He's third build, at least according to IMDB. Heather Graham's in it. Max Perlick, of course, Kelly Lynch is the female lead. Oh, Grace Zabriski's in it. That's fun. Love Grace Zabrisky. So, Joseph, for you, I have selected one of the headliners of the mastermind, Mr. Josh O'Connor. Oh, nice. Okay. One television. It's got to be the crown. The crown. Correct. No, the question is whether Challenger's is too new to count for Josh O'Connor. Josh O'Connor also one of those secretly difficult ones, because if you get to years, that doesn't really help you.

It doesn't. No. Is Emma one of them? Can you, would you like to read? Emma with a period? Yes. Emma period is correct. Yes. Okay. Oh, sorry, I started nodding. Okay. Emma period is correct. So we got two for Josh O'Connor. No wrong guesses.

No wrong guesses yet. Is? So my options are challengers, La Chimera, God's Oat Country. I feel like he's got to, he has to have been in some more. slightly more mainstreamy ones. I'm going to guess, though, God's own country.

God's own country is correct. Are you going to get a perfect score, Joe Ree? Damn. Okay. Let's see if there's anything else that can come to mind for Joshy Josh O'Connor and see if I don't guess. any

Oh, what's his name? The other one, Kallam Turner. See if I don't guess any Callum Turner's. I'm just going to guess challengers and see. Joe Reed, do you have a perfect score?

Hell yeah, all right. Good for challengers already showing up on IMDB games. That's nice, very good. We had a couple early movies. I haven't gotten a 4-for-4 in a while. This feels good. I'm very happy about this, yes. Do we celebrate with anything?

we'll come up with We'll play the challenger score underneath my victory. I'm sending an effect. Ah! Ah, yay! All right, that's our episode. If you want more, this had Oscar buzz.

You can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.com. You can also follow us on Instagram at ThisHad Oscar Buzz. And on Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Shirley Frickin Lee. Shirley, this was great. One of my great professional things I will gladly take a bow for is seeing your resume at the top of a pile and being like, we're hiring her. Joe, the time that I spent with you working at the downed Atlantic wire remains one of my favorite times. The inmates were running the asylum.

Nobody knew anything was going on. I was woefully unprepared for the job. that I had been given. We ran a muck. We ran amok. And I just, can I, can I just say, I've been yapping this whole episode. Thank you for letting me yap. Thank you for having me on.

YAPA way. Absolutely. Joe, the best thing that we ever did truly was that post about what the rest of Lucy's brain allows her to do once she. Oh my God. I forgot about that. Oh, my God. All the things that Lucy can do now is she's using 100% of her brain. Yeah.

Man, you truly had no oversight whatsoever there. It was great. What a time. What a time to be alive. That story has like six bylines on it. We did great. We did so much. Well, thank you for showing up for your first that said Oscar Buzz, but by no means you're last.

We'll definitely have you back on here. Please come back whenever. We love you. Tell the listeners where they can find more of you if you wish to be found. Yes, I do wish to be found at first. certain places. You can find me at the Atlantic. That's where my work is. I'm also on blue sky now, sort of more so. It's a circle X-P. Just search for Shirley Lee, I guess. Yeah, and then I'm also on letterboxed. Less findable there. Your name is Mangabello, but I guess you can just find,

just look for Shirley. I don't know. And people you fall. Find Shirley on group texts with Linda McMahon and Pete Hegseth and Marco Rubio and whoever the hell else. Yeah, American flag emoji, fist of... Yeah, right, exactly, exactly. They're like, we got to get the group tickets to the new Jason State, the movie.

No, you guys, now that Sundance is in Boulder, we got to, like, all make a plan to, like, converge on... Oh, my God. On Boulder next year or whatever. We got to go to Emma Stone's one woman show. Hell yeah. Let's do it.

There's so much we could do about Boulder. The Halsey song. Yes. Oh, my God. Half of that Stephen King book. I say that Stephen King book as if the stand isn't like my favorite book of all time. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you?

Hey, I am on Letterboxed and Blue Sky at Joe Reed. Read spelled R.E.I.D. I also have a Patreon on the films of Demi. Me More, a Patreon exclusive podcast on the films of Demi Moore called Demi Myself and I that you can subscribe to at patreon.com slash DemiPod. That's D-E-M-I-P-O-D. We just recorded. I just recorded yesterday our episode on Strip T's with the great Katie Walsh. And it was so much fun. Oh, Katie. Yeah. So look forward to that and come have fun. And you can find me on Letterbox and Blue Sky at Chris V-File. That's F-E-I-L. We'd like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork. Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Medius for their technical guidance from time to time.

And Taylor Cole for our theme music. Please remember to rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get those podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So, I am not prepared for a close-in-shoke. Boulder, Colorado. That's all for this week. We hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. Bye.