This Had Oscar Buzz - 345 – Great Expectations

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

After his A Little Princess adaptation earned a duo of Oscar nominations, Mexican director Alfonso Cuarón followed that up with another literary adaptation, a modernization of Charles Dickens’ Great Expectations. With hot young stars Ethan Hawke and Gwyneth Paltrow as the central lovers and Oscar winners Anne Bancroft and Robert De Niro in support, the film transplanted Dickens’ … Continue reading "345 – Great Expectations"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Maryland Hack, Maryland Hack and friends. Dick Pooh Have you seen Miss Teller's left for school abroad Didn't you say goodbye? I don't believe it

The love of your life left you You're a man now You've got to go You're drooling You're drooling I want to paint your portrait She was my addiction What are you doing here?

What are you doing here? Estella's wedding Walter asked me to marry him I saw the light in that little girl's eyes And that's still what I see We are who we are People don't have changed I love grand

Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast in John Carroll Lynch's Running Club. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations. But for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here as always with my aging debutante in clown paint, Joe Reed. I'm going to make you fall in love with the woman. who invented negging Gwyneth Paltrow.

Between this and... The woman who invented the vagina candle, you don't have to make me fall in love with her. Between this role and Margot Tenenbaum, she really did invent

the art of like making people fall in love with her by being absolutely non-committal and dismissive of them. Truly amazing. Yeah, but Margot Tenenbaum never wore a blaze,

a blaze, a blaze, a blouse buttoned only at the boot. Only up the sternum. The most late 90s thing in this movie is Gwyneth wearing a long-sleep blouse with like nothing underneath it. Matching, matching, ankle-length skirt. And she's wearing this in public. Oh, like in the middle of like a park. Middle of public park. This is a 90s fashion.

I think we should bring back because it does look. So cool and chic. Well, right. But it looks so cool and chic on the like 0.0001% of people who have that exact figure. Like it's not even like just, it's not even like only pretty people can wear that. It's like only people who have that specific figure can pull that off. But it does look so cool. It looks very chic.

It would win a project runway challenge and it would be the gayest designer who designed it. Great expectations. How much Dickens did you read in school? Because I'm realizing not much at all. Yeah, not much. I have never read great expectations. Never read great expectations. Never read a tale of two cities.

It's almost like we're two dumb gay guys doing this show. Well, and because I think relatively, certainly when compared to like Shakespeare, I feel like Dickens and Shakespeare when you were growing up. What's that? I've read plenty of Shakespeare. Well, and also in terms of like movies that have been made, based on their works, there's just much more Shakespeare, especially if you take away

a Christmas Carol and Oliver Twist. Like, I saw... I believe I read Hard Times in school. Is that chicken, no? No, no idea. Absolutely no idea. But, like, I don't even think there is a film adaptation of A Tale of Two Cities, like, that I would have watched.

You know what I mean? That would have been actually, like, a decently big deal. pretty sure there's been like mini-series and stuff like that and like masterpiece theater and whatnot. Sure. But like Shakespeare, you're assigned Shakespeare at least like once a year Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes. In high school, you definitely read a bunch of Shakespeare. And then Dickens was always like on the reading list, but he was on the reading list next to like 100 page books that were published in 1986. And you're just like, yeah, I'm going to I'm going to read that. I'm going to read like, you know, Paul Zendell instead of, um, although Paul Zendell is his own.

sort of wild, you know, that was like, I believe those books were, like, written in the 70s, and they were all full of, like, you know, whatever, like newly liberated, you know, 70s people that were, like, squeezed into YA settings. Anyway, great expectations. So I guess that all of which is to say, like, I know the broadest of broad strokes when it comes to great expectations. I know Ms. Havisham, I know her whole general deal. and I know that the main characters are Pip and Estella. Right.

And like that's kind of it. And I think this movie even like elevates Estella to being like more of a central character than she is. But again, I don't know. And they're all change. This name changes happening. Well, right. Yes. Which I think is on some level I think it's funny.

Obviously it's 1998. You want to get kids to come see this movie. They're all going to laugh at your main character if his name is Pip. So they changed it to Finn. I mean, I just also don't believe anyone born in the bayou if that's where they're going to, you know, set the first part of this in is named Pip. Estella still sounds cool, so they stuck it with Estella. I think Miss Havisham could have stayed Ms. Havisham. I kind of don't understand the need to change her name, but whatever.

Anne Bancroft conceivably British. Why not? Anne Bancroft, I just did the DeMe episode on G.I.J. and some I want to talk about and Bancroft in the 90s because the list of movies is awesome. She's really kind of like, she's not necessarily enjoying like a renaissance exactly because it's not like she was like back in the saddle or anything like that, but like she was doing some interesting shit at this point in her career. And that's fun. You know what I mean? I'm in, I'm first, for, you know, somebody who's at an age where, like, those career prospects are getting real slim.

She was doing some stuff. She's cash in checks. So, right before we started to record this, I advanced the notion that because I don't think this movie's very good, and because this movie was released in January of 1998, I was like, did this movie actually have Oscar Buzz? And you corrected me with a quickness. It got delayed. This was it originally.

You reminded me, of course, this was originally a 1997, December 97 release, which I should have known because it was in the Holy Bible of my conversion to, you know, film-pilled guy, which is the 1997 Entertainment Weekly Full Movie Preview, which we have discussed on this. On our Patreon. So I wanted to, I knew it didn't have like a full page. It had a half page. Do you would care to recall what movie it shares the page with in the... Does it share the page with Washington Square, another movie we could have done? That's a really good guess because literally Washington Square, I think, is like the next page. No, it shares space with a film by a two-time Oscar-winning director who was adapting a very popular book at the time, starring a couldn't be more canceled lead actor. A movie we've done on this podcast before, a long time ago. Oh, 97.

Kevin Spacey. Oh, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. Great episode. That movie did release in late 97. Okay. And no one liked it. The blurb for great expectations.

Read it to me. All right. Daunted by the shadow of David Lean's 1946 masterpiece. Okay. The makers of this reworking of the Dickens novel opted to go the Romeo and Juliet route instead. They did not say Romeo plus Juliet, so I don't know what movie they're talking about. Be more precise, E.W. They cast two good-looking young stars, Hawk and Paltrow, placed in action in a modern-day New York.

or in a modern city, parenthesis, New York, dressed paltrow in designer clothes, Donna Karen. Now you know. I was going to say the open, the single button blouse is extremely Donna Carrey. It is. It is Donna Karen, in fact. Changed the hero's name from Pip to Finn, Hawks' quirky suggestion. Put Bancroft, formerly Mrs. Robinson in the Miss Havisham role,

and added music by Chris Cornell, Pulp, and Tori Amos. We'll get into it. Basically, it's a huge romance, Quaron says, of the $40 million. film. In the book, Pip goes to the city to become a gentleman. In our film, he goes to establish himself as an artist. Straight out of Dickens, however, are the leading man's feelings for Estella. But Fox executives initially balked at casting Paltrow. The studio didn't really know who she was, says producer Art Linson. She hasn't, she hadn't even come out with Emma yet. The upside, this is with their little conceit was this year. They gave you an

upside and a down side. She's quite literally in seven, a $100 million gross. Yeah, like three years before this. Okay. Upside. Taking a stylistic cue from Romeo and Juliet is a good idea. Downside. But this masterpiece theater meets MTV thing could get old fast. I will tell you, there were many a trend piece after this movie came out about the masterpiece theater meets MTV thing.

Well, because like taking a classic text and making it modern, also known as with a commitment to showcasing women who are strong. Thank you for picking that up exactly as I did. If it's not sound dropped, I'll kill you. I've taken a classic silhouette and updated it with a commitment to showing women who are strong. What does that mean? Yes, that was an element happening in the culture right now. And I don't think they need not sound so snobby. First of all, Roneo Plus Juliet, great movie.

That's the thing. That's a great movie. Clueless, which also sort of got wrapped up in a lot of those trend pieces. Great movie. I think, but what I find fascinating about that notion is that in the 90s, there was still the sense that if you take these classics and you sort of remain faithful to them and that you do them correctly, that, That's still the preferred way to go, and anything else is sort of a deviation from it. And I feel like by now, by 2025, we have, I think, long past the point where doing the faithful adaptation almost feels more daunting because that's... You've got to do the real faithful version.

It's so out of style. Really, really well. Yes, and it is very out of fashion. It's very out of fashion, and it is very hard to... be impressive going in that direction. Like even when you maintain the sense of like costumes and the original setting and the original sort of characters names and whatever, like something like Joe writes Anna Karenina, you really have to, you know, do something sort of outrageous with the staging of it in that case. You got to take a leap in some way. In order to get

beyond just like polite applause and a costume design nomination. Also, this blurb, you know, comparing it right away to the David Lean version from the 1950s as, like, the untouchable masterpiece. I don't even know if I would name that in the first five David Lean movies that I would call the David Lean masterpiece. In all that I've ever heard of David Lean, I've never heard anybody mention his great expectations. Now, that could be me not knowing. So this movie starred... It could be 20 years later. you know, culture shifts on movies

and now we just, you know. John Mills. It's not like in the 90s, they weren't talking about Lawrence of Arabia and Chicago. Like John Mills as Pipp, Valerie Hobson as Estella, and Martilla Hunt

as Miss Havisham. Yeah, there you go. So, there we go. In this case, we get Ethan Hawk as Finn. Hot late 90s, Ethan Hawk. Gwyneth Paltrow.

So like 97-98, Winnis Paltrow, which was a mood, and I will definitely want to talk about that. When this movie gets pushed back to 1998, it gives her a solid five or six movies released in 1998. Well, we talked about sliding doors already a few months ago. And she also had a perfect murder in 98, and of course, she ends the year with Shakespeare in Love. So, like, it's an extreme mood. And, you know, that scene where they cut to maybe the most outrageous scene in the movie? And there's a few of them. Like, Quaron and Lubeschi, I feel like at some point maybe realized that, like, the train was off the tracks.

And they're like, we're just, like, we're just going to go for it. Because there's a scene where Ethan Hawk finds out that Estella has left to go marry Hank Azaria. And he runs out into the street. Are you talking about the tracking shot through the rain? No, the one that goes up to the airplane. Oh, oh, yes. That shot is wild. It's so good.

It's so good. But cheesy, I think, too. Like, it's good and cheesy at the same time. I'm not mad at it. I also was like, okay, so which airport did she fly out of and how many times did it have to circle Manhattan to get that trajectory? Oh, I feel like that's full fakery, right? I mean, of course it's fakery, but I was, you know, in the CGI of it, the flight plan. Oh, I see what you mean.

of this light. It was flying through the southern tip of New York. But did it look to you like she had gone to her sort of post infidelity sliding doors haircut in that scene? Like is that a later, is that filmed later after she had like cut her hair? Because it looked like that that was the case. And then the next time you see her, of course, is several years later. And she's got the, you know, she's got the long hair again for the, for the end.

Because I do feel like one of the things about Gwyneth Paltrow from the like era of seven through Shakespeare in love, which spans about three and a half years, is the hair really does tell a story, you know, right? It's like when it's, when it's short, you're communicating one thing. When it's longer, it's communicating another thing. And there's a long-haired Gwyneth to me always communicates a languidness, a sort of resigned to her. her circumstances kind of a thing. It's, you know, it's not until she cuts her hair and dies it blonde in sliding doors that she sort of becomes, you know, more in control of her life. That's her haircut in a perfect murder when she's just like stepping out on her shitty husband and arranging, you know, backhanded, back, you know, whatever clandestine deals with people. Again, big mood. Big mood, Gwyneth in this era.

I'm probably going to be kinder to this movie than you are because you mentioned that shot as one of the wild shots. I mentioned that tracking shot where he's running through the rain. There's a certain effect of these like rain shots in the city that seem stagy and fake in a way that I felt was intentional. That I was like, ooh, give me more of that movie. where there's real artifice to it. I like the way, I'll say,

I like the way that Quaron and Lubesky stage the sort of southern gothic environs of the Florida sets, particularly Miss Havisham's home. I'm just going to call her Miss Havisham because whatever. Mrs. Dinsmore. That's not a less American-sounding name than Havisham. I'm saying, like, I don't understand what we're doing. understand what we're doing.

Or a less British sounding name. To then, the way they also film her townhouse in the city through these sort of like canted angles and tracking shots or whatever. And it looks very spooky and very sort of like, you know, we're about to enter like a, you know, country mansion mystery or something like that. Finn's East Village, uh, shithole apartment. Giant, or his giant loft that he moves into also downtown. Right.

Right. His, oh, okay. I didn't write this down, but I'm glad I remembered it. The scene where she shows up, Estella shows up to Finn's apartment, his shithole apartment, and has him draw her. And she, like, she's, you know, she gets naked. She has him draw her, whatever. And then, like, once they're done, she, like, puts her clothes back on. And she's, like, got to go.

And, like, doesn't even say goodbye to him. And, like, literally just walks out and doesn't shut the door to his apartment. And I was literally like, I was just like, lady of all the shit you're doing, break his heart or whatever, but like shut his goddamn door. And then he chases after her. She really behaves like all spaces are public spaces, you know. When he's drawing her naked, she's got her titties out in the East Village breeze, like just hanging out the window. The like little girl and her mom across the way who could like just fully like look over at any time. She didn't care.

But then Finn runs after her and also doesn't shut his door. And I'm like, do we not under, like I understand you don't have anything worth. stealing in your apartment. But, like, still, sir, we shut our doors. She behaves like an alien person, but, like, they were right to cast Gwyneth because, like, you put Gwyneth in the role, and it all makes sense. Well, the whole idea, right? She's raised by Ms. Havisham as almost like a weird, like, social experiment where she's like, what if I could raise a girl to essentially destroy the hearts of men? And to, like, raise a girl to have absolutely no affection or capacity for love, and yet also sort of intentionally beguile, like, raise

somebody to essentially, like, be a siren to, like, call men to her shores and then strand them on the rocks. You know what I mean? Like, that's... And Ms. Havisham's like, well... To never close a door. Right. Exactly. And Ms. Havisham's like, well, I did get left at the altar, and it devastated me. So, you know, here we are. are. And you kind of get it with Ms. Aversham. You're just like, honestly, you know, whatever, like, I'm sure that she has an old gay friend down in the Gulf who's like, you actually work. You know what I mean? Like, that's, um, that was the guy that left her at the altar. Some Quentin Crisp type or whatever is just sort of like honestly work. Um, but yeah, um, I mean, I guess I shouldn't get ahead of, you know, doing the plot. I want to take it back to the new drawing and I want to take it back to the energy. We take it back now, y'all. Yeah.

Because the trend that they are spotting, not incorrectly, is the, you know, let's take a great literary work and modernize it. But the other trend that is happening at this time, this movie was originally intended to be a Christmas release. Yes. You can see the original poster. New Year's release, I actually think. It's the listed new release date in EW was December 31st. Well, the poster, the original poster says this Christmas. So already it was being delayed.

Okay. The real trend going on at Christmas 1997 multiplexes. Santa had a brand new bag. Santa sure did, and it was filled with charcoal and parchment because the trend that was happening is dude draws naked lady. Right. You got three movies. Obviously, Titanic will get into it. As good as it gets, people forget drawing a naked lady in that movie.

And then this. Yep. Yeah, you would have had three. As it was, you're right. Greg Kinnear, drawing naked, Helen Hunt. This movie, though, I literally wrote down, this is very Jack Dawson coded. Like the scene where he shows up at the like, whatever, like the townhouse social club thing, the, you know, whatever equivalent of the heel.

club that exists in, you know, the version of this story, where it's Hank Azaria and he's brought Gwyneth his fiance, and then they're like, fancy friends, and they've invited Finn essentially to... Hank Azaria, cinema's great cuck. Honestly, God. There has never been a, like, more buttoned up cuck than Hank Azaria in this movie. No, it's totally true. It's his second movie in three years with De Niro.

and he at least fares better in this than he didn't heat. So we can save that at least. But, yeah, so he brings them to, they invite him to whatever, the fake Yale club. And I wrote down, this is so Jack Dawson-Coded, because it's literally the dinner scene in Titanic, where, you know, he doesn't know the social graces or whatever. And Kathy Bates has to sort of coach him through, but he doesn't have a Kathy Bates. Instead, he has Estella who's like, you know what I mean? She's just like, she could kind of care last. He's like, do you want a cigarette?

He hands it to her. She's like, it's your last one. Oops. And like, whatever. Absolutely devastating. Gay men would fall at her feet if this movie was released nowadays. So cold, so unfeeling, so devastating. What else?

What else? What else? Yeah. So, yeah, Titanic obviously, was like, the flavor at this. moment, which kind of... Yeah, you don't really want to be, not only do Draws Naked Lady movie at the same time as Titanic, but the same, the romance at the same time. Does Leomania effectively kill whatever sort of much, much, maybe not much much, but like, whatever, like, decently more contained version of that that Ethan Hawk had? Because this was really towards

the end of Ethan Hawke's era. By the way, if you ever want to roller coaster ride, scroll through Ethan Hawks' Wikipedia page and look at all the different looks that he's had. There is a blonde hair with dark roots photo from the before midnight Berlin premiere that will haunt your dreams is all I will say. What was he filming at that time? Was he playing some type of drug dealer? Well, boyhood comes out the next year. Is there a late, is there a late scene in boyhood that requires? No, what would it have been? No, I think they make him look older in boyhood don't know okay hold on a second hold on a second hold on a second doesn't he show up at the end of boyhood in like a bolow or something he's wearing something

ridiculous in the course yes okay so it would have been god he made so many movies in this era 10,000 saints no he's got dark hair in that not maggie's plan not born to be blue i don't think was it the hurley burly revival maybe oh no that was way before before midnight was it Yeah. I was in like high school when the Hurley Burley revival came out. I genuinely don't know, but like it's a wild look. It is a wild look. Okay. I would say it would be really funny if Ethan Hawke did that to his hair for fun, but the man never stops working. So, I've never stopped working since the mid-90s. The era that I'm talking about is actually not a ton of movies, but it is a handful of what is to me very impactful movies, which is reality. in 1994, where he plays sort of the avatar of alt-era fuckboy, right?

Before sunrise, 1995, who is a more sort of acceptably, like, he's a romantic in both of them, but he's a, he's such a, he's, no, he's a cynic in reality bites, who then, like, has a romantic inside him that he's trying to kill. but, like, Winona Ryder's trying to, like, bring it out a little bit. In Before Sunrise, he's obviously much more of a romantic. I find Before Sunrise, we've talked about this. That's my favorite of the three. And a lot of it is sort of this, like, glorious youth that the both of them have in this,

where he's just like, he's the epitome of mid-90s, like, Van Dyke facial hair, you know, walks around with a copy of a paperback book of some sort in his pocket. can carry on a conversation and we'll just smoke a cigarette for the entire running time of a movie. And it's just like, yes, that is exactly it. Then 1997, he's in Gattaca, which is a completely different thing, but also is sort of predicated on the idea that, like, Ethan Hawke is a very handsome person. And in this weird sci-fi world, he's still not physically perfect enough to fit in. So he has to sort of like fuck with the database or whatever to get led into the version of, you know, society that includes Uma Thurman and whatnot. And then 1998 he is in both Great Expectations and the Newton Boys, which is already by the Newton Boys, like McConaughey is the guy in that, right?

And he's one of the like other brothers. So and then I'm not saying that it wasn't going to happen anyway because like people give. older and you sort of age out of versions of, you know, that person. But, like, Leo, Leomania dropping at, like, the very beginning of 1998 and, like, lasting, you know, for at least, you know what I mean? It's just, like, lasting through whatever, the beach. I can see the parallel you're drawing between the two of them in terms of, like, career and projects and how that kind of changes through this kind of widespread public love. Well, even, yeah, just sort of just like... Those are just two very different faces.

Now, I'm going to... I personally will pick the Ethan Hawke every day of the week. Sure. But for... They're two very different faces. But I do feel like they're not... I don't think everybody was going to be all hot and bothered by Ethan Hawk in the way that they were at that fever pitch.

Well, right. I think the thing about what Leomania did was Leomania sort of took everything that had come immediately before it and was like, cute also but like check this out and then sort of paved the way then for the return of boy bands you know a year or two later right so yeah Ethan Hawk's not going to be in a boy band

much as I would pay respects to that but Ethan Hawk is the version of he's the cutest boy in the grunge era you know what I mean he's the cutest boy in the era where the whole idea was to not be a cute boy sure the pivot point pre-emo Yes. River Phoenix was kind of doing a similar thing for a little bit, you know what I mean? Just looking so, looking so pretty and trying often not to, you know? Which was sort of the grunge thing. Do you know how hot like Eddie Vedder and Kurt Cobain were? Do you know what I mean? And they just like put just like threw as much dirty hair in front of their face as possible just to hide that fact. Oh, like, you know, Eddie Vedder looked like Michael Hutchins basically.

Like, you know. Like, have you ever seen, like, a really good photo of Chris Cornell? Like, like, panties on the floor at that point. So. Literally, there is a shot of that in this movie. Of Chris Cornell. There's a close-up shot. This is my problem.

Yes, of Chris Cornell. No, this is maybe more so where my problem lies with this movie. We'll talk about how this is, like, a deeply tampered wist movie. And that is really the problem with this movie. Yeah. But, like, if I was going to give any criticism to. the vision is that it is extremely late 90s male gasey in a way that isn't always fun to watch. Like, the close-up of her underwear as she takes them off is a little 90s porny.

Yes, although I would probably say that, like, the novel seems to be also, like, very much focused on... 1840s, porny. Well, no, but also just, like, very much, like, through his perspective, right? It's definitely like it's PIPS story. But yeah, there is a very sort of like 90s kind of, you know. Sense of sexuality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Should we, we're how about a half hour into this,

would you like to tell our listeners about the Patreon? Yeah, go sign up for our Patreon. It's called This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. It is $5 a month. We've been doing it for a couple years now. We have a banger of a vault full of episodes for you. We've been churning out two bonus episodes every month for anybody who subscribes. You will get, firstly, on the first Friday of every month, you will get an episode along the lines of what we're calling exceptions.

Exceptions are movie commentaries where we do, we talk about films that had all of the trappings of this had Oscar Buzz movie. great, great expectations, disappointing results. It's the only one you get this. It's the only one I get to do this. I'm reining you in. Thank you. Thank you. But those movies got a nomination or two, sometimes three.

And we can't talk about them on the main podcast, but we can talk about them on the Patreon because we can do what we want. We'll our interview the vampire episode will have already debuted by this point and folks It's happy gay month go listen to our movie We really kind of go off in that one it's super fun I listened to it earlier today It was really it was a good time so I think you'll enjoy it

Second episode of the month comes on the third Friday And these are what we call excursions These are not about specific movies But instead about various types of of Oscar-related or just film-related ephemera that strike our fancy, that feel coded towards the particular kinds of movies' obsessions we have. We mentioned the 1997 Entertainment Weekly Fall Movie Preview issue.

That was a full episode for us. We just talked about that thing for a whole episode. We've watched old award shows. We've done our own little end-of-year awards. We've done this had Oscar Buzz Game Night. We've talked about THR Roundtables, Hollywood Report, roundtables. This month, our excursion will take us to the late 1980s and the Academy Awards that were produced by Alan Carr, infamous for the Snow White and Roblo. Yes, Snow White and Roblo.

Yes. Snow White and Roblo, embarrassing us all with their opening production number. The thing about that is, it's not just Roblo. It's not just Snow White. It's so many people who actually have a hand in that, like, craziness. So we will be. talking about not only that particular opening number, but like that whole Oscars. We'll be talking about the whole thing because it's right there on YouTube. So, um, good time will be had by all. I demand it. So if you want to join us for that good time, you can go to Patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Once again, five dollars a month, a steal it twice the price, and come have fun with us. All right. Here we are talking about great expectations directed by

I won Mr. Alfonso Quaron. Written by Mitch Glazer based on obviously the Charles Dickens novel, starring Ethan Hawke, Gwyneth Paltrow, Annette Benney. Sometimes

I just I log into the white space in my brain and I see letters on the outline and interference happens. And you say, I need to read the correct name like I need a dick in my ass.

That's the line, right? Yeah. I need your opinions like I need a dick in my ass. Oh, fuck the sweater. She'll just have to learn to live with a disappointment. Different movie. I love that now all Annette Benning impersonations are done through the prism of Patty Harrison. This is good.

This is nice. All right. Are you straight now? I'm sorry. Oh, no. So tragic. Great movie. What other Annette Benning movie should I quote right now?

Don't have anything Mars attacks right on top of my head. So I'm just going to say, sorry Ann Bancroft. I love you. All right. You have a similar name to another actress, but you have an Oscar. And she doesn't. It's true. Cazaria, Chris Cooper, our fifth Chris Cooper, apparently, which I went through the cast.

I was like, we are definitely getting a six-timers club in this. Nope. Came close. Paltrow's already had hers a long time ago. Cooper's on deck. Kim Dickens, Gabriel Mann, Stephen Spinella, Lance Redick, May he rest. Nell Campbell, Rocky Horror's own Nell Campbell. Little Nell, Nell Campbell.

Nell Campbell playing the absolute late 90s stereotype of what a, you know. Oh, art gallery owner? Yes. Art publicist. Like, you work in art, your hair is red. The haircut, the entirely black outfit. Everything else on you is black. You speak at a mile a minute.

You're on a cell phone constantly. And it's like an S&L character. It really is. It's true. Yes. And then maybe the biggest non-start of, this entire movie and Robert De Niro.

And Robert De Niro. It's really, I know that this is, you know, a very famous character that he's basically playing the analog of because it's not the same character because of the modernization of it. But I don't know if the De Niro stuff amounts to much in this movie.

Well, it's, again, calibrated really strangely because he's the first character who shows up. He comes on so strong. The first five minutes of this movie look like it's going to be Cape Fear. My first note for this movie is Max Cadyass. Yeah, yeah. And then he goes away from most of it, and he doesn't come back until the last half hour,

at which point we are sort of expected to build up some affection for him and his sort of patronage of Finn. And then there's this truly bizarre scene in the subway. First of all, De Niro also plays the role half comedic. And I don't know if he's supposed to be doing that, but he is. Well, in the 90s, he was so, like, bouncing back and forth, right? You know, this is only, what, two years removed from Meet the Barrens? So they have a whole scene in the Hoyt-Skimerhorn subway station that is somehow has tiles for Chamber Street.

And I'm wondering what's going on there because it seems to me a little waste of money to have put up tiles for Chamber Street, which makes me wonder if this was filmed in two separate subway stations, but like the G-Train comes and like the G-Train doesn't come at Chamber Street. Anyway, they're running up the stairs, they're down the stairs, somebody comes on the subway, stabs De Niro, and all of a sudden it's like, you know, this like harrowing death scene. And they're like, ma'am, like, he's only been back in our lives for like 10 minutes, tops. So, like, truly, I don't understand what we're supposed to be feeling in this moment. It's not done particularly well. Maybe this is my other complaint about the movie, because it really feels like the type of thing that because of, because of. it's famous in the book,

well, it has to be in this movie. But if this was not based on a book, all of that stuff for that character would be gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Anyway, back on schedule, the movie opened wide January 30th,

1998, after multiple delays. We'll get into it. Yeah. Get into the reasons why for the delays. But still trucking at the box office, all of those guy draws naked lady movies, including Titanic, still trucking along with a $25 million weekend and it's seventh weekend at number one.

Yes. This is kind of the ideal, like, you know, we talked on the last exception episode for interview with the vampire of the old movie listings where it's like, okay, what's your double feature? The top five is Titanic, great expectations, goodwill hunting, spice world, and as good as it gets. Wow, not even Scream 2. Scream 2 fell out of the top 5 by then.

I guess. Spice World. What a time to be alive. What a time, indeed. I have my Spice World DVD that I paid because it's out of print. You know, the thing about Spice World is you got to pay like $100 or something to get Spice World. I paid $50 so that I can own Spice World. Wow.

Nice. Good for you. Money privilege. Good for you. Joe, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description for Great expectations. Sure. Sure. Yes. All right. Then your 60 second plot description for great expectation starts now. Finn has a very colorful childhood on the Florida Gulf Coast. He is being raised by his sister and her boyfriend. His name is Joe. He's played by Chris Cooper. He's

weirdly hot in those early scenes and he's on a fishing boat or something. He's also has to free convict Robert De Niro from shackles and there's a harrowing moment at the very beginning of the movie, but then he goes away. And then he is taught dance lessons or something by Ms. Havisham, who's trying to get him to sort of fall in love with her adopted daughter, Estella, just so that she can teach Estella to break his heart. She weirdly, like, tells him that this is her plan, and like he still sort of like falls right into it. Anyway, cut to years later, Joe is an aspiring artist. He moves to New York. He has some sort of unknown patron who he assumes is Ms. Havisham, who is sort of sponsoring his art show and putting him up.

And fuck that. He is the weird, like, he's the toast of like fakey fake art New York, but like he's, you know, he knows deep down that he's, he doesn't belong there. And there's Estella again, and she's older and she's ice cold, but she toys with him anyway. She has him paint her naked. She's engaged to Hank Azaria, but she kind of wants Finn to, you know, convince her to run away with him.

And he does. He sort of like abducts her from a restaurant and they run away and they kiss in the rain. and then she still goes to get married to Hank Azaria, which was all according to Ms. Havisham's plan. And then Finn returns home to his giant loft, and there's Robert De Niro again, having made something of himself but through shady means, but he's been his benefactor all along.

And then they go to the Hoyt Scrammerhorn subway station, and De Niro gets killed on the train, and killed on the G train, the indignity of it all. And then Finn goes back home, I guess, and then years later he finds Estella, and it seems like they're going to maybe get back together, which is an odd way to end this book the end, or this movie, the end.

53 seconds over. Yeah, I figured. Well, he goes back to Chris Cooper, though. He goes back to haughty Chris Cooper in old age makeup, who's still a hottie. Yes. Okay. But then when he sees Estella...

Chris Cooper into this movie in his old age makeup is not unlike LaRoche of adaptation, which would be wildly four years after this. There's a version of this movie. that is John LaRoche, Max Cady, Margot Tenenbaum, and Troy Dyer. And it's like, it's a really, really interesting amalgam of characters. And Mrs. Robinson. And Mrs. Robinson, real, real.

That's the fucking, like, Avengers, like, multiverse of... Avengers Hell Game. Avengers from Hell. Also, if you look at the poster, they have De Niro looking like he looks at zero point in this movie whatsoever. He looks like he's, you know, it's like a headshot from a completely different movie. That's how he looks in the beginning of the movie. I guess. I don't know.

He's in the prison jumpsuit. He's baldheaded. He's definitely, yeah, well, maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. Anyway, they also have the, okay, can we talk about Finn's drawings of Estella, which are very erotic and very sort of attuned to, like, you know, her nipples and and Bush. and whatnot. And yet, every time he draws her face, it's, like, cartoonishly, like, it's like, you know the poster for All About My Mother? It's not, like, unlike that. It's sort of...

Francesco Clemente is the artist, who also gets the first screen credit as the end credits role. It's not unartistic. I'm just saying that it's, like, not the most flattering. It's very late 90s, New York City. art. Of course. Of course. And again, none of my business. I'm just saying. An undeniable quality, but flattering is not the word. Which is funny because he draws her and then she looks at them and like, I was like, that's how you see me? And you know what I mean? Like that kind of a thing. The drawing sequence is maddening. First of all, it's set to some uptempo rock song like we're supposed to be like jumping around in the theater.

We'll talk about the soundtrack eventually, but yes. Closeups where he's like rubbing his finger on the drawing of the nipple to like get the shading just right but it's like okay okay so yes but like have there has there has there ever been a movie about a fictional artist where you've been like this is really good art you know what i mean like you always sort of look at it and you're like huh okay like if it's a movie about a real artist you look at it i'm actually going to, I'm, I'm going to disagree. No, no, there's movie. What is Nina Sayers, if not an artist? Oh, no, I mean, like, I mean, a visual artist. Yes, a visual, visual art. Whether it's sculpture or, um, film even, you know what I mean? Like, it's so hard to make a movie about a fictional

filmmaker where you're just like, how dare you speak such ill of Lydia Dietz, or Delia Dietz, actually. No, Delia is the- That's her art and it's dangerous. Oh, yes. All right, yes, Delia, you're Well, listen, honestly, that's maybe among the best. Like, I would buy Aedelia Dietz original. I would buy that big spiky, you know, insect-looking thing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. What I wouldn't give to have that in my living room. No, I don't know.

It's always just, it's, I think it's a challenge. It's a challenge. Because your instinct is just to be like, this fucking guy. You know what I mean? like um but and of course the trajectory he goes on is this very familiar trajectory of like he goes to the city he's the underdog and then he gets a little bit of success and it goes to his head and then he becomes a like pretentious asshole about it you know and whatnot um and i think that's kind of fine and baked into the material of like that that is quite literally the character arc that's

what we're supposed to be it's just so many character arcs that have followed the the dickens sure sure that's the that's the trouble when you're modernizing great expectation as it seems like it's uh you know a lot like a lot of other person who's only ever seen great expectations watch just great expectations getting a lot of great expectations from this um okay so here's here's where i kind of want to get into how this movie was definitely tampered with the i think this this feeling you're describing, like, making the drag-off motion around Finn in this movie.

I don't think Hawk is giving necessarily a bad performance. I think he's, you know, playing what's on the page. I actually think he might be the best performance in the movie. The, and we'll talk about that. Bankroft is off on Rhone Island and, like, I'm enjoying what she's giving. I like Bankroft Island. Yeah, me too. I'm hanging out there.

It's a fun island to be there. Yeah, to be at, yeah. I am the Nick Lachey house at Bankroft Island. I am, yeah, I'm setting up shop. You got to schedule your ferry because it only runs certain times of the year, but you got to take the ferry to Bankroft Island. You'll have a good time. Yeah, if you get a summer share on Bankroft Island, you're getting fucked.

Like, you're not going to end up in love at the end of this summer, but you'll probably get fucked. I know, and like we got to talk about it. Just like caveat, we understand we get it. The economy on Bankroft Island is really pushing out. out a lot of the people who have been there for decades. It's not what it once was. Capitalism is a villain.

Bankroft Island used to be an artist colony. It's too commercialized. There's no artists there anymore. Right. It's very hard. And also, like, the materialism and, like, it leads to shallowness. Obviously, like, there's a lot of drug use on Bancroft Island. We understand, like, not everybody's into it, but a lot of people are into it. It's not everybody's seen.

We're looking to make Bancroft Island more. inclusive, I feel like. And, you know, we'll figure out the housing problem on Bancroft Island. Well, if the tides don't wash it away in the... Exactly. This is the thing. We're all chasing climate change. TikTok, Tick-Tick-Tac, Bankrupt Island.

We've got to enjoy Bancroft Island while it's there. And it has the best seafood in the country. Anyway. Anyway. The thing about Ethan Hawks' performances, I don't know if I would feel as strongly that way about Finn, if it was not for the Jagoff narration that they thrust upon this movie

which apparently was a very late stage change and it's just like it's unnecessary it feels like you know it's a producer decision where they are they think the audience is stupid and won't understand what they're seeing it's constantly

you know informing things that I think are already there in the performance And, like, it feels very Blade Runner. There's nothing that happens in that movie. Have you ever seen the original Blade Runner narration, which is like, you can't really watch that version of the movie anymore for the most part. Blade Runner is one of those movies that I have no idea what version of it I've seen. So I either like the bad version too much.

Right. I either like the bad version too much or I don't like the good version quite enough. So it's like it's somewhere. That narration, you can tell that Harrison Ford did not. give a fuck when he showed up and did it. This, it's like Hawke is still being professional. You know, he's one of the people who's

talked about having such a negative experience of working on this movie. Yeah. Along with Quaron. Yes, Quaron has definitely Quarone and Lubeski did a talk back at the Tribeca Film Festival a few years ago where they were literally like, so the worst movie we ever made was

great expectations. And here is point I mean, when you make a bunch of masterpieces back to back to back, It's just like, well, this movie that I think is totally fine. Your worst movie, sure. Have you seen A Little Princess? No, I never have. I actually want to catch up to it now because...

For a while, I thought I had, but then I realized it was the Secret Garden that I had seen. I've never seen The Little Princess. A Little Princess, which got those two Oscar nominations on no box office. You know, Warner Brothers even put that back into theaters at one point. to try to goose up the numbers. Which makes sense as to why then he got this movie, which you imagine, was not only something they hoped would be prestigious, but also would be like a big box office draw, obviously with like these two young hot stars, the, you know, hopping on the trend of like, you know, the classics, but juzzed up for kids and not kids, teens. I keep saying kids like it's kids' bob or whatever. But you can tell that it's not Quarone's movie.

No. You know, that he, it wasn't his idea to make this movie. He hopped onto a job offer. Yeah, it's harder on Quaron watching this movie than it is on Lubesky because I feel like Quaron, Quirone's responsibility falls like the whole movie coming together, and it doesn't. Lubesky can be impressive in fits and starts, which he definitely is. Like, there is definitely, there is a visual style to this movie. Like, there is a captivating sort of way he which, like those, again, those southern

gothic, you know, environs of the early part of the movie are so, feel so, um, humid in a way, you know what I mean? Like, feel so humid, but also dry, especially when you're in Notmish Havasum's house. Well, right, I think, but Ms. Habitim's house in particular, like, there's a real atmosphere there. Like, that air is thick with regret and, and, you know, whatever. They got water fountains in that house. They sure do. And then, again, this version of New York, I think, you know, we've seen New York depicted so many times.

And this version of New York feels so, I don't even know how to describe it, but so sort of ornate. Like, there's a, there's sometimes, like, different, again, I lived there, so I had more sort of opportunities to notice this. But, like, every once in a while, because you do so much of New York, you're just sort of walking through, you're going from here to there. I, as you know, we've talked about this before, I am a very sort of like point A to point B person. If I'm going somewhere, I'm getting there.

But every once in a while, I'll sort of be sitting down somewhere and you sort of look up and you look at the buildings and even just these very sort of like normal buildings that or whatever. And if you look up high enough, there's, the architecture is fucking insane, right? There's these sort of like intricate, you know, everything has these details to it, these, you know, the texture, the, you know, and I think the way Lubesky photographs New York, it's not like he like focuses on that specific kind of stuff, but it's, it's sort of, it gets to a different, more sort of like doomed romance of it all. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And it gets to, you know, there's flashes of this movie with this real sense of artifice and artifice and non-realism. And it feels in, you know, tandem with that in a way that I found very beautiful watching this movie. Which then to mean, I don't think this is a bad movie. See, I think my problem is I see all that sort of visual. visual style and find myself getting all the more frustrated when the, you know, the script and the interaction and the sort of like the actual like plotting of the movie to me feel so silly. And so like, you know, one. And you know what I mean? Just sort of just like very sort of like bloodless. And not entirely bloodless. There is like a fingering montage in this movie. it's true

there's okay I maybe you feel differently the sex scene between them she says the phrase I want you inside me which to me is always it feels porny it's porny and it also

it just like it takes you right out of there because it's just like I don't like that's not I don't know I don't know I mean a lot of I mean it I felt the way about that that I felt about some of the other things

that I don't like in this movie it felt like a young director being given studio money and doing what the studio wanted. Listen, it all worked out for Alfonso Cuaron. Again, when he and Lubeschi talked about it, where they were like... Makes his best movie after this. We were so burned by this that we decided to just sort of like cut it down to the studs and just like do something incredibly small and personal.

And they go back to Mexico and they have Gaila Garcia-Bernal and Diego Luna jerk off next to each other. And then, bam, Oscar nomination. And it's, and here we are going on than that, but yes, that's part of it. No, I love Yitou Mametambia. It's a wonderful. I mean, the other thing about I too, that feels like such a middle finger to this experience, too, is like that movie has the perfect use of narration. Yes. Oh, my God. That's a very good point. That's a really good point. Yeah. No, it all worked out for Alfonso Quaron. He's never, okay, Oscar-wise, Alfonso Quaron, two-time best director winner, zero-time best picture winner. Do you feel like, because he's won two Oscars, it's going to be that much harder for him to ever win Best Picture?

Because to win Best Picture, he will almost certainly have to win a third Best Director. Or, you know, the version in your mind of the movie that he would win Best Picture for. Well, he's winning best director for that. That's exactly what I mean. People have won three best director Oscars before. I don't think that's outside the realm of possibility. We just need the man to not be making TV. And TV that no one really cared about it.

Well, I think the fact that nobody really cared about it is maybe might boost him back into movies. I hope so. I mean, the thing about Alfonso Quaronne is he makes... He maybe makes the exact, like, you really have to thread the needle with him to, like, get him the support, the studio support for the kinds of, like, the big kind of movies, the really sort of, like, you know, big and satisfying kind of movies he can make. Right. You either need to have Netflix throw a bunch of VC capital at it, in which case, now you're a Netflix movie, and you've seen how that's worked out. He's had Netflix movies before. Well, that's what I mean, though, but like, and they've, like, succeeded to a point.

You know, his two best director movies are a Netflix movie that took as, when as far, when as close to the finish line as possible as a Netflix movie maybe ever has. On allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, the most expensive Oscar campaign of all time. Yeah. Well, it was their first big one right out of the gate. It was their first one where they were like, motherfuckers, we are here. They spent more on that money than they did on anything else. But they got a black and white movie with no star.

and no American actors to the precipice of best picture and money well spent maybe he's a star director though I mean yeah but does that matter in terms of like does that matter as much as we think it matters do you think Oppenheimer wins outside of the money because if the money happens

different story than Quaron exactly though if that movie is even the same movie but doesn't have his name attached to it. Do you think that's a best picture winner? I'm not sliding the movie because I love the movie. But that's sort of what I mean. Like, is that the type of thing that does? I do think star directors do matter for the Oscars. But Nolan's kind of one of one at this point. Like, even Spielberg and Scorsese aren't pulling that kind of, like, across the board for quadrant recognition. I think. I think Nolan's like in a different, in a different league.

But again, it's maybe not the best example for what I'm saying, but you understand. I understand what you're saying. What I want to sort of, like, you know, thought experiment for a second is what kind of movie do you think we want Quaron to get back into that space with? Like, he's made so many different kinds of successes, children of men, gravity, Roma. Children of men, we also talked about on our Patreon. The only time we've talked about Quoron. Yeah. Well, he gets, he gets Oscar nominations.

Yeah, exactly. But so what, you know, what would you want to see him? return to maybe or start to try something very new. This is the pageant answer, but I mean, it's truly whatever he wants to make. Sure, of course. It is a page. Cabot being non-IP because I think he was trying to get the Bond gig for a while. Do not give James Bond to Nolan or Quaron or literally, like, even somebody on the level of Sam Mendez, I think, is too, like, was, Sam Mandis, I think was right for Bond at the time. Honestly, I do. I know a lot of people don't agree. I do. But even somebody who was at the level now of what Sam Mendes was back then, too, to, to, to, I mean, even Mendes made Spector and that movie's bad. Well, yeah, it is bad. But I don't know. I mean, again, but I'm not a bond person. So I don't know. Whatever. Do the fuck whatever you want with Bond. Just like hands off of my like great record.

Well, it's what they want to do, what they paid a billion dollars. to buy the broccoli out as they want to do a TV show. That's what Amazon bought those rights and bought out the family from the property so they can make a TV show. It's going to happen. Get it away from me.

All right, what else do I want to talk about? Why would you ever want to watch a James Bond TV show? I don't know. James Bond is the movies. The whole point of James Bond is that it's the movies. You can't do James Bond will return in next week's episode. That's fucking bullshit. That show

has existed many times. That's not James Bond. Anyway. I love Corone's movies. I feel like we maybe ask this question on the Children of Men Exception episode over on the Patreon. Your favorite Coron is...

Children of Men. Oh, okay. It just is. Mine's C2Mov to be in. I mean, it's up there. It's a great movie. Love that movie. I think there's something, there's the scope of children of men being a little bit bigger and still managing to like nail it is, that's sort of what seals it for me. But I love him.

I haven't, have you seen gravity since you first saw gravity? Yeah, I saw that movie like three times. Did you really? But like since that year. We had this conversation semi recently. I just forget where we had this conversation. That the thing about gravity is it doesn't feel like. like it has as much

you know, footprint in culture outside of IMAX. Outside of just theaters at least, you know, because like that's how you have to watch that movie. Did they do a re-release for the 10-year? I don't think so.

Should have. They should have. I know we were still crawling back in 2023, but they should have. All right, we're talking about the soundtrack. Okay. Okay. Joe, would you?

you like 15 minutes to talk about the Tori Amos needle drop? I fucking could. Obviously I knew I knew there was a Tori Amos needle drop in this because like knowing that is just sort of a thing you know. She wrote the song Siren specifically for this movie, which makes me feel like Tori should have been writing songs for Alfonso Quaron like throughout. Like it should have just kept happening. What's her gravity song? Like what's the name of that song? It's something about motherhood, like it's something about having, you know, a child and lost it or something. Grief's so big. It can only fill space. So 1998, the beginning of 1998, she hasn't yet released her album from the Choir Girl Hotel, but like that's coming. And that is this sort of big sea

change for Tori. Speaking of lost pregnancies, she had gotten, I think she had gotten married by this point she had had a baby and then lost it and that was a lot of what informed from the choir girl to tell but the big thing about that album was she sort of like I being a total completory obsessive is like it's like when Dylan went electric

because like that's when she went from like just piano like specifically piano sometimes maybe harpsichord sometimes maybe like Hammond organ or whatever to like she's got a you know a rhythm section she's got a drum and a bass and a guitar and just like these songs I'm over here like that's when Fiona got drums.

And, like, I love both versions of Tori. I love girl and piano, Tori. But, like, fucking Christ. Like, that version of Tori that, like, beefed up precious things for the tour that year was fucking amazing. It was so good. So, Siren is very much in the vein of the sort of, like, more sort of, like, there's a drum there. There's a bass line there. Like, it kind of, like, it fucking kind of kicks ass.

It's essentially It's essentially When he like, he stops When he sheds that mousy blonde hair And he gets hot And he goes to work on the fishing boat And he becomes like a man like a man. He's working with Chris Cooper on the fishing boat.

And it's sort of like papers. Meanwhile, I'm like, but he's listening to Tori Amos, so he's a gay guy. Listen, but like, it's working for him, whatever is doing. No, it's one of my favorite Tory non-album tracks. I think if we're talking non-album tracks, cooling is up there. Cooling eventually made it on her live album. There was never on a proper studio album. Merman is on there. sister janet which was a b-side for cornflake girl is on there sirens is there or siren is there it fucking it's a banger it's such a banger every time i watch this movie which is now like three times i'm like okay what's going on and then all of a sudden like the song kicks in and i'm just like fuck yes it's so good the soundtrack as well it's got chris cornell on it it's got pulp on it Duncan Cheek, Scott Weiland from Stone Table Pilots, Chris Cornell from Soundgarden, Chris Cornell

who died a few years ago and is very sad. There's a Grateful Dead needle drop when he goes back to see Chris Cooper at the end of the movie that is like, my dad, my dad listens to a lot of Grateful Dead. My brother and my sister are very sort of like big into the Grateful Dead. So I always enjoy a good like Grateful Dead needle drop. I'm like, especially Uncle John's band, which is one of my favorite, maybe my favorite Grateful Dead song, which is very much like it's the like top it's your skimming the top with uncle john's band but like that's sort of what I do so it makes perfect sense um I know that like the way it's used the way that the soundtrack is used in the movie is often very sort of like late 90s obnoxious but like I think the soundtrack

itself is pretty solid I think the songs themselves I'm enjoying what say you what say you I know you're not like as big of a like you don't go as deep for Tori as I do, but... No, she, I love Tori, but she's not, she's not, you know, on my bench. A Tori and Fiona tour together would have, like, broken my brain. Would break us. It would break us.

Tori toured with Alonis Morissette once, and that was already, like, pretty, pretty rad. Um, but a Tori Fiona, like, Tori and Fiona could tour now. And, like, I would be, like, I would... Bust down any kind of, like, you know, ticket master or whatever. I would get an American Express card.

I would, you know, I would get in on a fucking pre-sale. I don't care. Like, my old ass is going to see Tori and Fiona. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, if she ever tours again, I will travel to see Fiona. Yeah. Because she's not coming here. Well, she might.

Why wouldn't she? Columbus is a good... Columbus, I have to imagine. She doesn't tour. Well... She's living her life. She is happy with the system she's got working for her. All right.

Well, listen, two of the best. Two of the best to ever do it, Tori and Fiona, and we love them. I agree. All right. What else? Was there anything? We talk a little bit about A.M. Bancroft in this movie because we haven't really gotten into it. We got into Bancroft Island before we got.

No, we got into Bancroft Island before. So Bancroft, how recently have you seen G.I. Jane? I saw it last year before. I saw the substance. Oh, you did? Nice. She's kind of fucking great in that movie. She is. Her and Demi are. great in that movie. She, yeah, like, to me,

it's, like, genuinely, I still get mad doing that episode in reading a lot of those reviews, which, like, they weren't even specifically mean reviews. She's had a lot meaner. Like, she's had a lot. But they were just, like, dismissive and sort of just, like, focused on her, like,

getting buff or whatever. And, like, fucking, I genuinely thought I liked Janet Maslin as a film critic, but, like, that lady had a bug up her ass about to me more that, like, would not leave. So Bancroft around this time, I believe the first thing I ever saw her in would have probably been honeymoon in Vegas, where she plays Nicholas Cage's mother.

Very small role. But she, like, so, and this comes across, we recently saw for, when we did the library's draft for a screen drafts we did saw aiding four chairing crossroad was in 1987 and then torch song trilogy is 88 um so already like she hadn't really she never really stopped working but like into the 90s it's a real interesting like she's in malice where she is fuck who is she in malice um genuinely have no idea i'm going to need to rewatch malice because i bet you she's like she's in point of no return the same year movie that is only a exists as a poster.

It's the American version of Lafemniquita, right? I remember Point of No Return as a trailer that was on TV a lot. A TV, like, that TV spot was on constantly. I saw the point of, like, I was inundated with the point of no return. She's in a movie called Mr. Jones, which is a early Mike Figgis movie starring Richard Gear and Lena Olin that I never saw, but I remember, like, seeing. Movie that also only exists as opposed to. She's in How to Make an American Quilt, which we have, we, a very early, early this had Oscar Buzz movie.

Good episode. It's her and Ellen Burstyn who are sisters, right? That's the whole central. Claire Dane's is the younger Anne Bancroft. B.C. Gorensen is the younger Ellen Burstyn. And they're sisters, I'm pretty sure. And they have their little club, their little quilting club. Home for the holidays, though, is probably like.

also good movie where it's like oh anne bancroft is like has come to play she's so good in that movie honestly she's so good in that movie obviously holly hunter is good in that movie cynthia stevenson amazing in that robert downy junior who cannot feel his face through that entire movie is so good um durning's good geraldine chaplin is so funny always the best um great movie great great movie um she's of course in dracula dead and loving it because it's her husband, Mel Brooks, directed it. She's playing a character named Madame Ouspenskaya, not to Maria O'Spenskaya. She's in a movie called Homecoming that I've never seen, made for TV movie. A Michael Chimino movie from 1996 called The Sun Chaser, starring Woody Harrelson, that I've never even heard of.

It competed at Cannes in competition. in 1996, and I've never heard of this movie. That's crazy. The film received largely negative reviews. Huh. Huh. Interesting. Well, interesting. I know. But then G.I. Jane, again, she plays the, she's the American senator who at first gets behind the idea of a woman going through Navy SEAL training because it will get her a commitment from the Defense Department to have full equality in military hiring, essentially, for women and men. And then at some point, it becomes politically advantageous for her to engineer Demi Moore's failure at this, which comes through like, it's a little bit of a hand wavy where the movie's

like, for reasons now she has to be like against. of this. But so DeMey comes back to Washington and has like kind of a couple of really good bangered scenes where the two of them face off. And butter would not melt in

Anne Bancroft's mouth in this movie. Like she is cool as a cucumber, but like really, really good. And then she does this and then she does ants, also in 1998, where she's the queen, aunt. She's in keeping the faith in 2000. Good movie.

De Niro, not De Niro, a Norton and Stiller movie, where she plays, I believe, Stiller's mom? Correct. Milos Schformen's in that movie? Holy shit, this movie. The supporting cast and Keeping the Faith. Keeping the Faith, remember when we had romantic comedies that were absolutely ludicrous.

The only thing I remember about Keeping the Faith is that it has a scene set in the movie theater at Lincoln Square, and I'm literally just like Leo pointing. Jenna Elfman, Ann Bancroft, Milo Schformen, Eli Wallach, Holland Taylor, Lisa Edelstein, and Rina Sofer, who at that time would have... No, she was gone from General Hospital by them, but still. Ron Rifkin, David Wayne, Ken Lung, Susie Esman? God damn. Extreme New York Theater movie.

Do you know what her last movie is? Are you looking at her filmography right now? Let me go back. It's an animated movie. Not Delgo. Yeah, Delgo. Delgo. Delgo.

Delgo. Yeah. And Bancroft. Love her. Her last live action performance, she is in Heartbreakers, where she plays Sigourney Weaver's mentor in the Art of Conning Men. I should watch Heartbreakers. It's been forever. I remember it not being very good. Yeah.

I would go and watch those three women's leg. Also, that's a poster where you look at that and you're like, Sigourney. Weaver's head has never been on that body. Like, I don't know. Like, everybody looks so goddamn photoshopped in there. It's crazy. Not Gene Hackman, though, who just plays, like, gross old man in that movie. Did people talk about this movie when Hackman died?

I feel like they probably should have more. Anyway. Regardless. What I also love about Anne Bancroft's Oscar is that there were shadings going on. Famously, she was on Broadway at the time. I think this is the era where people are like, I'm on Broadway, I can't get out of the, but like, really, they just don't want to go to the Oscars. I forget if she, if it was her or Burstyn, who, like, had it in their contract that they could get out to go to the Oscars, but then decided not to go. I think that was Burstead.

Well, you know why decided not to go? Because Joan Crawford came a calling and was like. Joan Crawford didn't come a call. Joan Crawford, like, canvassed the entire, you know, L.A. Metro area. She's like, hey, Ann. She's like, oh. Well, yes, because Betty Davis is nominated for who's, who's, uh, whatever happened to baby Jane, not who's afraid of Virginia. Who's afraid of her baby Jane, uh, originally I believe she, Albi wanted her.

Uh, whatever happened to baby Jane. Joan Crawford, her screen partner, not nominated. So, and, you know, Hollywood being what it was in the time that they came up through, they're considered rivals. Betty Davis also, like, talked a lot of shit, as to Joe Crawford. But also, Catherine Hepburn's nominated that year for Long Day's Journey and Tonight. She never went when she was nominated. Joan didn't even have to bother with Catherine Hepburn. She's like, Kate don't want it. Whatever.

Like, we're going to move on. So she's offering to go in the, I believe one of the other nominees was not able to go or didn't go. Lee Remick, I'm pretty sure, for Days of Wine and Roses. Was it Lee Remick that Winter did go? And then Geraldine Page was the other one for Sweet Bird of Youth. Right, right. The finest actress of her generation. But I believe, like, Crawford had it on lock where, like, if three of the five of them.

She's like, I will be accepting on behalf of anyone who cannot attend. And then, like, took, like, a street team out and was like, don't vote for Betty Davis. Prevent of baby Jane. That's what Betty Davis, you know, forwarded. I don't know if Joan Crawford actually did that or not. She accepts for Anne Bancroft and then takes it to Anne Bancroft backstage back in New York. It's a tremendous bit of Hollywood lore that I believe all the juiciest versions of because that's so much more fun. Joan Crawford, who, by the way, already had her Oscar by then.

And Betty already had two by then. So, like, it's truly just like its spite is driving those engines. You never saw Joan versus Betty feud, did you? I did not. There's a scene in that where they're on set, and of course they have their little separate trailers inside the soundstage for uh as they're so they you know they're screaming at each other as they're like walking to their separate corners and um then jessica lang as joan crawford just sort of turns about and she goes

and it was and it was glorious swanson who should have won the Oscar in 1950 not you bitch and it was glorious swanson who was robbed in 1950 not you bitch It's a tremendous line reading. Really funny. Honestly, that whole thing as sort of like trashing and juicy as it was, like, it fucking worked. I really liked it. I cannot speak to the program. I do, however, agree to the sentiment.

If I was voting, I'm voting for Gloria Swanson. Oh, it was very, very much a line that I imagined was like written just, but I feel like that was just like, whoever was writing that episode was like, probably should have been Gloria Swanson. And I'm like, let's write it in. Just like, well, just write it in. That, whenever I do my little, like, making sure my mind is staying sharp and I do my Sporkel quiz where I can see how many of the, of all of all of all time, I can manage, I can remember.

Those two years I get adjacent to each other because I'm like, oh, Bancroft, Betty, Geraldine, Lee Remick, Catherine Hepburn. And then straight into Betty. Betty Davis, Anne Baxter, Gloria Swanson, Judy Holliday, and I can never remember the fifth one from that year. But that's fine. It's caged. Oh, Eleanor Parker?

Yes. Dang. No? Yeah? No? No? Who's caged? Caged is caged.

Eleanor Parker and Agnes Moorhead. Who was nominated? Delano Parker was nominated. It's that year. Yeah, very go. All right. I got it right. Yay.

Who knew? Very good. Okay. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about had this movie not been pushed into the very beginnings of 1998. Uh-huh. Still not outside the shadow of man draws naked lady. Right.

What kind of foothold do you think this could have had in the Oscar race or in certain nominations? because a Little Princess had those two nominations. It's Lubeski's first nomination. So who are the Cinematog nominees that year? And that is... Best Cinematography, Titanic obviously wins for Russell Carpenter.

Your nominees are Janush Kaminsky for Amistad, Roger Deacons for Kundun, Dante Spanati for L.A. Confidential, and Eduardo Serra for Wings of the Dove. Those are like four heavy hitters. I was going to say I don't see Lubesky cracking this lineup. I really don't. L.A. Confidential is getting a ton of nominations.

Wings of the Dove is a major nominee for Best Actress. Deacons for Kundun, like, that was definitely the, we don't get it, Marty, but like, it looks nice, so we're going to give you the Deacons nomination. Right. Like, all of those nominations for Kundun are, like, fully from, like, the strength of the work, because Disney was already basically dumping that movie. Amistad got a quiet four nominations, too, is the other thing. People don't remember. Obviously, Anthony Hopkins is nominated for playing John Quincy Adams and supporting actor. But Kaminsky gets nominated for cinematography.

Ruthie Carter gets nominated for costume design. And what's its fourth nomination? Score? Dramatic score? John Williams, that would be conceivable. Yes, John Williams' dramatic score. There we go. So, like, again, I mean, it's Spielberg.

I could see I Gioro Serra not. getting through, but I don't know if it's Lubesky's strongest work, so I don't know if I see it getting through there. Yeah. Yeah. I thought about art direction, too. These are the Art Direction nominations. It's Titanic wins, obviously. Gattaca, nomination, I

probably wouldn't lose for the world. No, I know. It's a great nomination. L.A. Confidential and Men in Black. Men in Black's an interesting one. Obviously, Bo Welch is, you know, a legend. Right. Again, L.A. Confidential's not missing. Dante Ferretti for Kundoon, I imagine, pulls in a lot of respect.

I agree with you. I would not want to lose that Gattaca nomination for anything. I love that nomination. That's the kind of nomination. It's exactly the kind of nomination you do not get these days. Like, absolutely not. And we're all the worst for it. It's like the last time we got that was when her was nominated in that category.

Well, her was the Best Picture nominee, though. That's true. You know what I mean? Like, we're, I mean, if that's, that's, what's the last, like, really sort of like left-fieldy art direction nomination. Let's see. I mean, I guess you can count stuff like Nosferatu last year, but even like Nospheratu

I believe... I was going to say, was that Gattaca's only nomination that year? I believe, yes. So you're talking about something like to do-do-do-do-do-to-do-to-to-do-to-to-to-to-Hale Caesar in 2016. You know what I mean? Like that kind of... Right, and that movie didn't even have a campaign behind it. Right, right, exactly.

And that was similar. sort of just like, huh, I did not think that movie was going to be a contender. So, um, all right. First man, considering first man, didn't do that well with the Oscars. But didn't that also get like four nominations or am I crazy? I think it won visual effects, but like it wasn't even nominated for score. Well, that's kind of crazy. Crazy.

Crazy. Joe, I was trying to give you the easiest layup in the world. What's that? To make you very happy. What? Of what Oscar nomination you could have handed this movie. Would that have counted as an original song? I guess it would have because she wrote it for the movie.

If she wrote it for the movie. Okay. So this year famously, my heart will go on steamrolls for original song. Obviously, Madonna is a shady, shady boots when she reads that win. Shocker, Celine Dion. Or she doesn't say Celine now, of course, because Celine Dion doesn't win the Oscar. Go the distance from Hercules, millennials, stay out of my Menchies. Journey to the past.

You're an elder millennial, sir, just because you haven't seen the movie. Am I wrong that Hercules is a millennial obsession? Hercules is great. I don't, listen, I did not say otherwise. I'm just saying, Hercules is a millennial obsession. You said it with a sneer in your steps, sir. Me? Me?

Me? Never. Rue never. Journey to the past from Anastasia. How do I live from Conair, Diane Warren. not the song that Diane Warren should have won the Oscar for, but it is better than any movie she's been nominated for for the last at least decade. And then Miss Misery from Goodwill Hunting.

Speaking of nominations you wouldn't want to get rid of for the world, Elliot Smith's nomination for Miss Misery. So I am unsurprisingly going to eliminate one of the animated ones, and it's going to be Hercules because I remember Anastasia. and I like Anastasia. I like Journey to the past. It's me, Anastasia. I...

Do you remember when Neff Campbell introduced that performance at the Oscars and she called her Alia? The pop singer. Oh, that's right. They did have Aaliyah perform that. Yes, she did. Oh, that makes me want to keep it now. I'm saying. Who did the pop version?

Oh, you know who did the pop version of Go the Distance? Michael Bolton. Yes. Yeah. Oh, Michael Bolton. You know, he's sick now. Oh, no, I didn't know that. I know.

Michael Bolton, what a time to be alive. Gen C doesn't understand it. Gen Alpha doesn't understand it because, like, we don't have anything like that. Josh Grobin, not even. Like, it's a whole different thing. Yeah. Right, right. Okay, so here's my conundrum.

You can get rid of Diane. That's fine. No. Okay. It is also between the animated journey to the past. You mentioned Aaliyah, which makes it harder to get rid of. I do think that that's kind of a snooze, though I do think the music and Anastasia is beautiful. It's pretty.

Go the distance is not, it's the ballad. Of course, it's the one that they nominate. But, like, that's not the best song. What's the one that everybody likes from it? It's the, like, zero to hero or whatever? I mean, zero to hero, I won't say I'm in love, is awesome. Uh, yeah, so I, I would rather another Hercules be there than this, but I do think the one I'm dropping out. Actually, can I just be real for a second? I don't think I'm dropping either of these out for the Tori, but I respect and love for that.

I had a feeling. I don't think I could sing or note the Tori song. I love that Tori song. And I can at least remember this. I understand. Listen, we all are prisoners to our own memories and emotions. it's fine um no i like listen we all we all have our things all right anything else we want to talk about no i think i got it do you have anything in your notes you want to refer to not shutting the apartment door margot tenonbaum perfected negging um deniro in the thing haughty chris cooper Ethan Hawke's romantic brat period We talked about Hate all the names Shitty blonde wig

Oh, well no, we did talk about this Quiddeth wearing absolutely no underwear Underneath that outfit in the park Oh, Gwyneth licking Ethan Hawke at the water fountain Yay or nay Post-COVID, nay Hot or not

Not hot Yeah We live in a world No, no, no, no Water fountains in general. Outdoor water fountains? We had a water fountain. Everybody's got a water bottle.

Well, this is the thing. It's like, just like, yeah. We had water fountains in our college, whatever, like, in the buildings in our college. And they could not have been more disgusting. Like, just absolutely just, oh. Like, if it's at the point that you need to go to the spout part of the fountain with a steel comb, it's time to just burn the building down. You know what I mean.

You've seen gross water fountains before. Yes, I have. That's almost a relic. At the beginning of the movie, Baby Finn and Not Mishavisham, she grabs his hand and puts it to her chest. And she says, do you know what that is? and he says bluntly, your boob. She obviously responds, no, it's my heart.

Okay, the relationship between Finn and Ms. Havisham. Not Ms. Havisham. Whatever. Ms. Hassenfeffer, whatever they call her. Dinsmore. Mrs. Dinsmore. Do you feel like that was developed well enough to have the impact it needs to by the end

when she sort of reveals her... Not particularly. No, right? She's fun. She's great. It's watchable. It's just not, you know. Yeah.

Not much depth to it. Not much depth to do it. I do like how she's able to sort of just like apparate in New York from Florida. Just sort of at will. That's fun. She's rich. Listen.

Just because she doesn't leave the house doesn't mean she doesn't have a private jet. Well, but then like, and I guess a private car to get her to the airfield or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, it's a hoarder private jet. It's just full of crap.

There's moss growing inside. Right, right. And there's also a filthy water fountain inside too. Yeah, weird little critters in there and whatever. Roger Ebert compared her mansion in this. He's like, it made me think of Great Gardens. And I'm like, not no. Like, not no.

It's bigger than Grey Gardens. Well, and it's a little bit more like, Gray Gardens doesn't have a lot of open space. So, like, there's the, you know, know, the various rooms get clogged up a lot easier. But it did make me feel like a 4th of July weekend where the Edies go and visit Ms. Dinsmore. Or conversely, Ms. Dinsmore heads out to Long Island to visit the Beals. I'm just getting a mental picture in my mind of you and I

as the Beals. Yeah. Your Big Eity, I'm little... Every version of two gay male friends you eventually sort of start to imagine our gray gardens years. The Beals. Yes.

Well, I mean, we just had vacation together. I'm obviously Big Eadies. I'm obviously the one singing tea for two. Well, yeah, because you're constantly yelling at me across the house to bring you your recording of tea for two. for true yes that's my version of

Amelia Amelia that's what I'm yeah yeah yeah put that lady in a big edie sun hat honestly give me a big

edie sun hat put me in a room with a well see the cats really I couldn't deal with the cats so many cats too many cats meanwhile in feeding the cats

I'm just like you're drawing them just shaking out a sleeve, a wonder bread. All right, all right. I am D.B. I love that in that sequence in Grey Gardens, which is just one of the greatest movies of all time, period, unironically.

That sequence where she feeds the raccoons in the attic. And then it's like they cut over to the raccoons. And even the raccoons are like, do you see this chick? Yes. Is she serious? Is this bitch for real? Is your favorite scene in Grey Gardens the perfect outfit for the day or staunch character? What is your monologue?

What is your preferred little... Oh, my preferred is Libra Man. Oh, interesting. Yeah. An ordered life. That's all I need is this Libra Man? It's staunch character is it for me, I got to say. They bring order.

I need an ordered life. That's a good little Edie. Damn. My last note on the movie is you really can't do, even if you're modernizing it, if you are doing one of the great texts in literature, and you're going to, like, shove in some narration, you've got to be lifting it from the book. You can't just do that. Thank you.

You can modernize Dickens, but you can't have an internal monologue. That is not Dickens. What's the point? What do you do? What's the point of the narrative if it's not to lift from the page and give your movie a little bit of goddamn gravitas? Now I feel like I've only said negative things about this movie, but I actually enjoyed watching. I enjoyed it. I mean, like, I think it's watchable.

I had the feeling I was done. The problems with it are very clear. Like, what's not working is very clearly not working, but I think it's still. I had also watched this movie recently enough, like within the last two years that I had the feeling of, like, why am I doing this again? You know what I mean? It's just like, I had a feeling of just like, I could have done something else with my two hours. I would absolutely believe that one of those rewatches was just for Tori. It wasn't not, no, it was for a project that I can't now remember what it was for, honestly. And, um, man draws naked lady movies. That's right. It's right. I

watched all of them, all of any movie where a man draws a naked lady. All right, IMDB game. Uh, yeah, would you like to explain the IMDB game to our list? I would love to. Every week we under episodes with the IMDB game, wherein we challenge each other with the name of an actor or an actress and try and guess the top four titles that IMDB says they're most known for. If any of those titles are television, voice only performances or non-acting credits, we mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, then it comes... After two wrong guesses, then we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. That's the IMDB game. How are we doing this today? Are you giving first or are you guessing first? I'll give first. Let's do that.

All right. So I delved into the 2013 great expectations, the Mike Newell directed great expectations that like nobody remembers. Like that movie came and went. That is starring among others, Helen and Bonham Carter as Ms. Habisham. I believe Ray Fines was in that. I believe Sally Hawkins was in there. You're told Helena Bonham Carter as Ms. Havisham, and you're like, I think I got it. She had been playing Ms. Havisham in like several movies before that at that point.

So at some point, Tim Burton was just like, honey, Miss Havisham, and she's like, got it, babe. No, but for you, perhaps somewhat cheekily, I have chosen your nemesis as Pip in that fine film. Mr. Jeremy Irvine. Oh, I thought you were about to say, Caleb Landry. No. Jeremy Irvine is not my nemesis. He's just not good in some movies. Okay, so here's the deal.

One television series that I'm just going to say right now, you will never get, but I think it will be fun to make me squirm. Free for all of Closing you to get it. Okay. Wasn't, no, he wasn't in this. The Catch-22 show. It would be really funny if I just threw that out there. It would be very funny.

Because that was Christopher Abbott. Well, it was many people, but it was, among others, Christopher Abbott. Okay, Warhorse. Yes, Warhorse. What's his, like, weepy? I think he's with Dakota Fanning in some, like, Nicholas Sparksy movie. Um, Ooh, this is, I'm just going to say

Benediction, I know it's not there. It's not. Should be not. I'm really struggling to remember Jeremy Irvine movies, so this could get rough. He never really got a franchise like an Ender's game or even like an insurgent. The people in Ender's game also didn't get a franchise, but I know what you mean.

Well, you know what I mean. These thwarted franchises for the Jeremy Irving. Oh, Stonewall. No, but you would think so, but no. Wow. All right. So your years are the films are 2013 and 2018, and then the television show was 2019. Okay.

2013, 2018. These are both after Stonewall, right? Yes. No, Stonewall is 2015. Oh, okay. To this day, I think the worst movie we've ever done on this show. Oh, I don't know. I think we've done worse.

But a good thought experiment. Okay. Listen, feel free to get at us. What's the worst movie we've ever done on this show? My guess is you've only seen one of these two movies. But the one you've seen, you should remember. The problem is you probably think of like 10 other people before you think of him in this movie. Is it also like a large British ensemble then?

It's not a large, it's not really an exclusively British ensemble, although there are a few British people in the ensemble. It is, no, I'm not going to say that quite yet. Huh. American at Brits together at last. It's a crowd pleaser. It's one of those movies that I was not in New York City. The weekend it had opened, and so I didn't get to go see it on opening weekend with everybody who I knew. And I'm bummed because I heard it was a rollicking good time, had by all.

Two years after War Horse. No. This is the 2018 movie I'm talking about. Oh, okay. 2018. I was thinking, I thought you said 2013. No, the other movie is 2013, but we're not talking about that one at the moment. 20. Oh, it's Mamma Mia. Here we go again.

There you go. I was going to say it's a sequel, but I wanted to see if you could get it before that. Okay. Yes. He plays the young Pierce Brosnan. Right? Acquits himself slightly better than Pierce Brosnan vocally. Well, sure. Low bar. Sure. Okay. So your other film, he's not the lead in this. He's the younger version of the lead. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the railway man. Remember when Nicole Kidman and Colin Firth were like, let's start a bunch of movies together that no one will ever see? Right. That, um, incredible, um, incredible movie. Genius. Yeah. Okay, so your television show, again, you've never seen this. My guess is you're going to say you've never heard of it. But the twist is we literally mentioned it a few, maybe in the last 10 episodes we've done. And you literally were like, that's a TV show. And I guarantee you it fell right out of your brain the second we stopped talking about it. Was it the day of the jackal? No, but. Well, that's like last year. You're in the right ballpark. Like, genre-wise. Right.

It's like spies, espionage. It's a brand extension. Jack Ryan. No, 2019, though. Yeah. It's too early for the Jack Ryan show, I think. Jack Ryan? Not Jack Ryan.

No, I knew that existed, too. Something that I wouldn't know exists as a TV show. What? I don't even know what platform this was on. Hold on. I guarantee you it was probably a streaming platform. It sounds like it's Amazon. Let's see.

Oh, no, it was not a streaming platform. It was a USA Network. Oh, well, there you go. Ooh, this is going to be rough. Yeah. It's an extension, though. He is the main guy in it. But it's not like a TV show called Clear and Present Danger.

It does not share the same title as... the any of the properties in which it's extending sure but USA does like legal spies they're not going to do full sci-fi I'm not entirely sure if this is this sci-fi well this franchise isn't it is sci-fi but in like the most sort of like limited way it's like sure robots the premise of it no not even that far the premise of it involves a like small leap in like science technology that would like um allow for this whole you know this whole shebang um it is based the original thing is based on a series of novels um the title of it is a thing that from these movies. It's like a, it's like

if you titled the Harry Potter show Hogwarts. You know what I mean? It's not like the end drama to strain or something. No. It's much of the movies were much, much more popular than that. Hmm.

These movies were successful. They had some... Is it like Mordor? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It takes place on, like, modern day, present day, earth. Like, it is, um, it's not like, there's no fantasy element to it. Right.

It's a spy, it's a spy, location, spy shit. Um, is it like the Pentagon? No, no. Area 51. No, it's not quite, like, I wouldn't say specifically, like, a geographic location. It's like a, a. Um, it's like if you called an alias reboot SD6. Okay.

The, there is a show called The League. That's not it. No. What's it? Can I get what it's at least extended from? Okay. Very popular series of movies, um, starting an A-list star that they then try to spin off to another star who like they tried to spin off a bunch of different franchises onto this person

and it didn't really work um directed the first three movie no the first movie was a different guy um the third movie in this franchise i think born is it a born thing yes there's a born tv show this is this is exactly what you said when was there a born tv show exactly this is DejaVoo. Yes, 2019, on the USA Network. Okay, so what would a born television show be called? The Supremacy. No, it doesn't, again, no

words from... I forget what the shadow agency is called in the Bourns. Okay. Well, then you're not going to get it. Okay. And I could break down the word, but it's called Treadstone. Got it. No one will know that that is a born show by calling it

Treadstone. Well, that's why it started in 2019 and ended in 2019, I imagine. Tim Cring, the guy from Heroes created it. Ramin Barani was one of the producers. Co-starred Tracy Ilfichor from The Pit and Brian J. Smith from Sense 8 and Michelle Forbes. Do I love? For you, I went into Anne Bancrofts. Oscar story I pulled from you, nominated alongside Bancroft, Miss Betty Davis.

I thought you're going to give me Lee Ramek. I was like, fuck. Well, the omen. I was going to say, I would have just guessed the omen and been done with that. The omen, days, wine, and roses, like. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Betty Davis is tough, because obviously there's more good options than there are. I'm going to say whatever happened to baby Jane.

Correct. All about Eve. Correct. Jezebel? Incorrect. No, Jezebel. Okay. Dark victory? Dark victory is correct.

Is Dark Victory what a dump? I don't know. I've seen Dark Victory. I don't think it's what a dump. Okay. You know what I'm talking about, though, the line from who's a friend of Virginia Wool? Dark Victory is the one where she wins for Jezebel and she's like, well, because they couldn't give it to me for Dark Victory, they gave it to me to me even as well. That's funny. Okay. Um, oh, um, no, she's not gaslight, right? That's Ingrid Bergman. Correct. I don't think she's in any Hitchcock's, right?

I don't think so. Okay. Um, God, it'd be funny if it was like the whales of August. Uh, Betty Davis. Oh, is it the one? Um, what's the one where she plays a queen? Is it that one? Do I have to remember that title? I mean, she's always a queen, but she's not playing a queen in this movie.

Do you know what I'm talking about, though? Doesn't matter. Would you like me to count that as an incorrect answer? Sure. The year's not going to help me. Right. Well, it can place it between Oscar wins. Well, that's true.

If it's like 1970 something or whatever. It's 1942. Okay. Well, 1942. So, okay. She was indeed nominated for an Oscar for this movie, as was the actress playing her mother, who never won an Oscar. Okay. Like famously never won an Oscar?

She had three supporting actress nominations. Not like Thelma Ritter, I imagine. No. She also played the mother of a very famous character in a 1960s picture winning. Oh, is this fucking, the one with Olivia de Havilland, the other one with Olivia de Havilland. You know what I'm talking about? Olivia D'Avaland is not in this movie. Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte is what I was thinking.

No. That's later, because that's after Big Jane. Yes, of course. That's not 1942, of course. Played her mother. Who's older than Betty Davis? The final shot of this movie is fairly iconic. It's been featured in other movies, including romance movies.

Has a very famous final line. I love the shit out of this movie. Is it... Um, fuck. Is it one of her, like, best, is it, like, truly one of her best known movies? Um,

I mean, she has a lot of best, it depends on any you ask. She's Oscar nominated for this movie. Yeah. What are her wins? It's maybe my favorite performance of her. Her wins are Jezebel and...

Uh, sorry, you asked me too fast. I'm clicking on over. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, Jezebel and Dangerous. Dangerous.

Who directed Dangerous? I don't think I've seen Dangerous. Alfred E. Green. Oh, oh, oh. This movie is in a run of Best Actress Nominations. It goes, Jezebel, Dark Victory, the letter, the Little Foxes, and then this. Is it a two-word title? Two word title

One article of punctuation One oh right It's it's now Voyager Correct Thank you Okay Let's not ask for the moon I knew it was in my brain

I knew it was there I knew it was in my brain What's the last line of now Voyager It's something to the effect of Let's not ask for the moon We'll always have the stars That's a movie where it's like She's so ugly

Because she has glass That is a project I should do at some point is like catch up on the Betty Davis is I feel like that would be start with Now Voyager, now Voyager rules All right, all right, I'm gonna do that. You want to cry, watch Now Voyager. All right.

Listener, that's our episode. If you want more ThisHad Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz. You should also follow us on Instagram at ThisHad Oscar Buzz and on Patreon at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? I am on Patreon, not Patreon.

Well, I am on Patreon actually. We'll just do the second part first. I do a Patreon exclusive podcast on the films of Demi Moore called Demi Myself and I. $5 a month gets you three episodes every month. Sometimes those episodes include my good friend Chris Fyle, like the one we're doing on the films she produced in the Austin Powers series. And very excited about that. I am also, though, on Blue Sky and Letterboxed at Joe Reed. read spelled

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