This Had Oscar Buzz - 351 – The War of the Roses

Episode Date: July 21, 2025

After a pair of successful adventure movies together with Robert Zemeckis, the trio of Michael Douglas, Kathleen Turner, and Danny DeVito got the band back together for one last time in 1989. With DeVito in the director’s chair and adapted from the Warren Adler novel, The War of the Roses follows the disintegration of one materialistic couple … Continue reading "351 – The War of the Roses"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Millen Hack, and French. Dick Pooh. When I watch you eat, when I look at you lately, I just want to smash your face in. Smash my face. I want a divorce. You can't have one.

When a couple starts keep. to score. There is no winning. It's only degrees of losing. I am the one who found this house. I bought everything in it with my money. It's a lot easier to spend than is to make it, honeybund. You might not have made it if not for me, sweet cake. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that got into Oxford and Cambridge with Gobbitts to spare. Every week on this had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we are here to perform the autopsy.

I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with the chandelier from whom I am precariously dangling at all times. Chris File, hello, Chris. I thought you were going to talk about my pattee business. The pattee business. What do you call that? Like, you're a patisserie if you're a bakery, right? Right, a patacery.

What is a patisserie? That sounds disgusting. You know that that building just, you know. know what that smells like. Here's my thing about, okay, so remember back when we did The Muse and Andy McDowell went into like the cookie business or whatever, that I understand. You're going to- Down at the Women in Cookie Business Conference.

Exactly. Where she's, you know, you're making, you know, gift boxes of cookies. People want their nice little dessert treats. I want to know all about the business model of this pat-e. business. Like, is she catering full meals with, like, paté as, like, a centerpiece? Is she

providing her, like, expert paté as, like, is she selling it to catering companies so that they can use it in their, like, meals? I definitely think she is selling it to fellow rich white

people. Because, I mean, this... Just on, like, just on a bespoke, like, paté by patte basis where it's just like somebody's like I could really use patte by patty or something her name should be Patricia in this movie patty's patty patty patty's patty uh well I mean just the extent that this movie is all about like oh sure materialism of course she starts a patay business right I'm just like I'm obsessed with the business model how like how many units is she moving like truly how how how much

How many ducks had to die for her business? Well, how much paté are her neighbors just plowing through on an annual basis that she's able to like... Events, baby? I guess, man. Like, I guess that's true. That is true. This is what she provides paté in bulk for dinner parties. That makes some semblance of sense.

Do you think, I don't know, whoever a rich person down the street knows how to make their own. patte. No, certainly not. Certainly not. They're overpaying for it at, um, you know, whatever Hampton's grocer. Ina Garden says storebott is fine for a reason. Aina says do not slaughter your own geese, uh, just to make patte. If you can't slaughter your own geese to make homemade patte, storebott is fine. Now I'm imagining Kathleen Turner chasing down a rogue goose on her lawn just with a hatchet. This movie, not a fan of animals. So, you can conceive Kathleen Turner killing a goose. It does chicken out, though, at the end, where she has made Michael Douglas think

like she has just served him, paté made of his beloved dog. And then once he starts chasing her, they cut to the dog elsewhere just fine. We're not going to jump to the ending, as we normally do. Let's jump to the beginning of the third act. Because when it's that moment of, wait, what did she just feed him? What did she just feed him? I thought we were going to be entering the help situation that she was, like, feeding him poop. Poop pie?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well. But she says it's the dog. It's not really dog. Listen, he did kill her cat. So. Accidentally, but even so.

Even so. Even so. Although I guess technically Susan killed the cat, right? Fucking Susan. Susan. Poor Susan. We could cut to the very end because I wasn't... The framing device or the like chandelier battle. No, the final shot of Danny DeVito in that way. Is he supposed to be living in that house?

Like, I don't understand the significance of that final shot lingering as much as it does. I couldn't tell if it was the Rose's home or if it was. just Danny DeVito could get this beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. I didn't love watching a Washington D.C. movie this week. They have that shot of the Capitol, and I'm like, is he a senator now? Is he the president now? Like, what exactly is the point of this framing device with DeVito's character that, like, that this divorce, you know, launched him into whatever next phase of his career, and now he's an amoral, you know, Washington, D.C. lobbyist. What is Dan Castile,

and that hopefully has some other type of job because this whole framing device goes to him trying to persuade who we presume as a client to not get a divorce so i'm like wait so you don't want money right right and he's just sort of passing on and like do you remember the end of maybe it's because it was dan castellanetta that made me think of it um the end of the devil's Advocate, where Dan Castellaneta, I think he's the one playing the, like, reporter or whatever. No, it's not, I'm thinking of Dan Castellanette is playing that character, and I think the client. But anyway, the guy convinces Keanu Reeves to, like, sit down for an interview to, like, glorify this, like, selfless act he just performed in court at the very end. And Keanu agrees to it, and then we find out that the reporter.

or is actually the devil resurgent who is, you know, tempted another man into, you know, sin or whatever. And I sort of had that vibe from the end of this that, like, DeVito is convincing this man to not get divorced for, like, reasons that he was going to then, like, spring on us in, like, a direct-to-camera address or something like that, but, like, it never happened. I don't know. I think that the unnecessary framing device in this movie is one of the things that is sort of keeping me from really enjoying this movie. I did not enjoy this movie at all. I can respect a lot of this movie. I think it's pretty dated. It's the classic DeVito format.

Enjoy is a lot. And I enjoy Danny DeVito movies. Like, Death to Smucci. Is it a good movie? Probably not. I enjoy death. Death to Smoochie is one of those movies that I'm like, I see what you're doing there. Respect for going that dark.

But like as an experience of me sitting down and watching and enjoying myself, it's not happening. And that's how I feel about Throw Mama from the Train. And that is how I feel about The War the Roses. There is just something with DeVito's films. And it's interesting because he doesn't write them. But, like, that I like how willing he is to go dark, it's just never accompanied, it never comes accompanied by that sort of humor. Like, I need it to be more funny. I need it to be, I need, you know, actual laughs to undercut the darkness.

You mean just murder isn't funny to you. Right. The way it clearly is to Danny DeVito. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So.

There's no murder in this movie. A lot of attempted murder. I mean, yeah. And just general sort of like violence and ugliness and nastiness and like misery. Like they are sort of inflicting misery on each other in ways that I could be like, you know, I think if this were the inverse of, because I imagine that there's a lot of this where it's just like, oh, this is like a curdled romantic comedy, you know what I mean? Everything that you find to treakly and, you know, cutesy about romantic comedies, we are taking all of that out. This

is the ugly aftermath of the meat cute, right? And as a sort of thought experiment, cool. And I imagine it is based on a book that is less concerned with doing that and more concerned with sort of making a commentary on materialism in modern marriages and whatever. There's a lot of notes going on here. And I think, you know, the most prominent one, which is what I would imagine, it comes from the book, is that, you know, 80s waspy materialism. And my issue with that and my lack of enjoyment of that is that there's a lot of movies that are making those same observations. And maybe at the time, especially with the star power involved, this is a more enjoyed movie than today, which I feel like is maybe one of my least favorite Davido directed movies I've ever seen. Let's not forget, his masterpiece is Matilda. I literally, I mentally sort of set aside about 25 minutes to just sort of let you go off on Matilda.

I need to watch Throw Mama from the Train as a misanthropic adult in these times because I'm sure I would be like, oh, that's a masterpiece. Let me know what you think, because every time I've tried to watch Throw Mama from the Train, I get thwarted by just how not funny it is. Well, we watched that movie a ton as a kid, so that would be like a weird nostalgic watch for me, but probably also explains a lot of the reason why I am the way that I am. Have you ever—so let's go through the DeVito. We can do this before we get started. This is a nice little table setting. So the DeVito filmography begins with Throw Mama from the Train. First of all, I imagine he directed his fair share of taxi. episodes as that series went on, and as I'm looking, he sure did. He directed, well, just three. But they were all towards the end. So anyway, 1987, he directs Throw Mama from the Train, which is, I believe, a decent, if not like, a monetary hit. Oscar nominated film, Anne Ramsey's nominated. It's also just like, I feel like it's a title, well, it's one of those very, very memorable

titles, but it, like, it made an impact. Let's see. Where did it land, if anything, in 1987? Because I can't imagine that thing, like, made, like, oh, you know what? No, it was the 13th highest grossing movie of 1987. Now, that... Did it make more than War of the Roses? Because when I saw that War of the Roses made almost $100 million, I about should have been. Well, Throw Mom from the Train only makes 57 million domestic, but it's good enough for... Only. Well, but that's good enough for 13th best movie of 1987. Right, right.

That's a lot of money, especially by $87. Yeah, so The War of the Roses makes 86 million domestic. So this will tell you sort of that, you know, how things sort of leveled up in the year of Batman, 1989, where 86 million then was only the 12th highest grossing. So your, your top nine movies in 1989 all made, um, a hundred million. And then, uh, which was, do you want to take any guesses or, or do you want me to just read them off? Batman driving Miss Daisy. Yes. Um, you have two of them. One of the Beverly Hills cops. I don't think that was a Beverly Hills cop year. It was not. Although there are two part, or three part twos and one part three.

Back to the Future 2. Back to the Future 2, yep. Part 3. Yes. The 80s. Like action part 3? Yeah, action adventure. Interesting.

This is a pseudo part 3 because this is after romancing the stone and jewel denial. We will definitely get into it. Oh, Last Crusade? Last Crusade. That's your number 2. You've got two more part twos, then you have two more part ones that would be followed by sequels. And then you have one other movie that was Oscar nominated, but not in the bigger categories.

Did you the right thing make that much money? No. Okay. Um Your other part twos are Um Both action comedy

But one is more towards action And one is more towards comedy Um Another 48 hours No But what's the like What's the dynamic in 48 hours? Two cops

Two cops of what Oh lethal weapon Leathole Weapon Leathor Weapon 2 is your number three movie of the year Yes your third part two is the less well regarded movie from its part one and then they kept trying to make a part three and instead they just sort of rebooted it like several times in the last 10 years

the original is revered among comedy fans of my age demo it's not an Eddie Murphy movie no but he was originally supposed to be in it okay where did Eddie Murphy sort of spring S&L right so is it Blues Brothers no they haven't made new Blues Brothers but who's one of the two stars of Blues Brothers Belushi and Dan Aykroyd Ghostbusters Ghostbusters too yes oh right Ghostbusters 2 and 89 wow I would I would have thought that was earlier. So your other ones are the part one of, I believe the part two came like the next year, where it was a comedy movie starring two Scientologists and the voice of an action star.

Oh, one voice performance, interesting, with multiple Scientologists. Yes. Scientology. Um, directed by a woman. So it's not Tom Cruise. Directed by a woman. Yes.

Who are the, who would, who would be the Scientologists who might star in a romantic, romantic comedy slash high concept comedy. Beck. No. In 1989. I'm joking.

Uh, Travolta? Oh, look, who's talking? Who's talking? And then there's... You could have said there's a dead Scientologist. Well, fine. Disney comedy,

Disney sort of family comedy that I watched one bazillion times on the Disney Channel. Obviously, it was a big hit, $130 million. dollars involved a lot of very elaborate sort of set building starred live action Disney starred a comic actor who has stopped working since then and every once in a while people are like I wonder if they'll get this guy back and now they've announced a sequel to one of his movies that

might actually bring him back, we'll see. Interesting. Wide Action Disney late 80s. Yeah, yes. With set pieces. Yeah. It's like all the kids are in one sort of part of the story, and then like all the adults are trying to find the kids.

Oh, honey, I shrunk the kids. Oh, Rick Moranis. Yes. And then finally, your number nine movie that, like, just cleared $100 million was a supporting actress nominee that year. I'm all prepared for best actress today. I don't know what the same. It was a supporting actress nominee that this actress got in between her two supporting actress wins. Oh, so Diane Weist for Parenthood.

Parenthood, $100 million, parenthood. All right, yeah. So War the Roses finishes 12th in 1989. So it's a good hit for DeVito. So he follows that up by making a movie about Jimmy Hoffa, starring Jack Nicholson, that flops. It's supposed to be this big sort of Oscar contender. And that got a nomination, though.

I don't think we can do for this. It was nominated for two Oscars, in fact. So probably makeup and oh, cinematography. All right. Sure. Vittorio Serraro or something. No, it's Stephen H. Broom. Oh, who shot War of the Roses.

War of the Roses, to say something nice about the movie, it does look pretty incredible. It does. So after Hoffa, it's four more years. He makes Matilda, a Chris Fyle, certified masterpiece. Then six years later, makes Death to Smoochie, which is one of those movies that critics were like, respect on this movie. And then everybody else was like, no, like, rejected that movie.

And then the very next year makes duplex that was on everybody's worst of list that year. And everybody hated Ben Stiller, Drew Barrymore, where like they want to move into a duplex. And so they have to like kill the old lady who lives there. classic Danny DeVito premise. Everybody hated it. I would watch a movie with that premise, just maybe not duplex. Well, so, and then that's sort of the end. He's got this movie that IMDB says is unreleased called St. Sebastian.

That is, stars William Fickner, Constance Zimmer, and the late Lance Reddick. Which, like, where was this supposed to be released? survivors in post-apocalyptic Russia after nuclear war is the log line for it. I have no, if anybody knows anything about this project. This feels like one of those phantom IMDB things that is just sort of like there, but it's like, it's listed as a completed movie. So like I have no idea what this is. Danny DeVito, still only Oscar nominated for what? Producing Aaron Brockovich. For producing Aaron Brockovich, Jersey Films, Danny DeVito. Danny DeVito.

Danny DeVito, a personality I genuinely like. Of course, how could we all forget? The greatest tweet known to man, Antonin Scalia, retire bitch. The finest work of Danny DeVito's career. He's been on It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia for the last like 15 years. He showed up, wasted on the view, on Limoncello's. After doing Limoncello's, going Limoncello for Limoncello, George Clooney the night before, which is the funniest part of that.

I don't know, just an interesting guy. I thought he and Rea Proman would stay together forever. And did they break up or did they get back together? Did they break up? I haven't heard this. If this is true, I'm going to be so upset. No, maybe they did get. I remember there was something where I was like, are they breaking up?

But I think they got back together. Let's see. No, they got divorced in 2012. Podcasts over. Goodbye. 2012? I never heard. This is the apocalypse that, you know, the Mayans foretold was that, you know, love would die. They were married for 30 years.

Damn. Let's see. Okay, here we go. Proman and DeVito have acted together, yada, yada. They separated in October 2012 after 30 years of marriage and over 40 years together, then reconciled in March of 2013. So they separated for a second time in March of 2017, but remained on amicable terms, and Pearlman stated they had no intent of filing for divorce. So they are technically married, but just separated.

In 2019, Pearlman told Andy Cohen that she and DeVito have become closer friends after their separation than they were in their final years as a couple. So once again, we wish them nothing but the happiest. Ria Perlman's career is like kind of booming right now. like guest star du jour on so many things. Have you noticed that at all? No, but I love that for her. She's in poker face. She's in, what else recently? Hold on. She was in mid-century modern in a really funny episode where she and the late Linda Lavin sort of go toe to toe. She's in, she's, if you've noticed, I know you're watching the studio right now, if you ever notice a scene where he's on the phone with his mom. That's her voice coming out of her. So she's sort of, you know, she's all over the place.

Plus, she was in recently Barbie, of course, as the creator of Barbie and Palms. We all remember Palms. Diane Keaton, Jackie Weaver, Pam Greer, Celia Weston, Phyllis Somerville, and Ria Perlman as cheerleaders. But she was also part of the Blythe Danner's gaggle of gal pals and I'll see you in my dreams so I see you in my dreams such a good movie um respect on her name anyway we love Ria Perlman uh Ria Perlman is not in the War of the Roses in any capacity but lots of other uh well actually I wouldn't say this is not a cast that is like full of like recognizable names and faces there's a few people where I'm like oh yeah like that guy who's you know, probably plays a jerk and something else or another is playing Kathleen Turner's

lawyer. But, like, besides Turner, Douglas, Danny DeVito, and then, like, Sean Astin as their one kid. As the son for one scene. This movie does take place over a long period of time. It does. You know that they start very young because they give Michael Douglas a blonde shaggy wig. I believe my first note that I wrote down for this movie is Michael Douglas come on wig War the Roses and Avengers Endgame both agree that at a certain point in Michael Douglas' past he had long shaggy hair

But yeah, like this is a movie that maybe I would have benefited from having a cast where I'm like, that person was in this movie Oh, that person was in this movie And instead I'm like trying to figure out who Marianne Sajbrecht reminds me of playing Susan, the housekeeper. But alas, she was not Kate Mulgrew. She was, in fact, Marianne Sajbricht.

We're going to get into this movie. We're going to get into the 1989 of it all. We have so few opportunities to talk about years like 1989. And this is a big one, because this is the driving Miss Daisy year. So there was a lot of, a lot of Adjada, both at the... time but also in retrospect um so before we get into this movie though chris why don't you let our listeners know why they should be uh shelling out five dollars a month to join us on the patron listener uh as you may know players previous episode he said that it's very much like players

i wanted i i you i players uh no no we have a patreon uh it's a fun time you should join us. You can join us for only $5 a month. And what are you going to get for that $5? You're going to get two bonus episodes every month. The first of which comes on the first Friday of the month, we call those exceptions. This is a concept that from the very beginning of the show, listeners have wanted us to do. These are movies that fit that this had Oscar buzz rubric of great expectations and disappointing results, but managed to score an Oscar nomination or two. Joe, what are we doing over there on this month. Is this an August episode or a July episode? I'm out of Oh, it's July. Okay. So what do we have over there this month? The exception is Tim Burton's

Big Fish. Speaking of Danny Tevito, uh, you may not remember that Danny DeVito is in Big Fish, but he is playing a werewolf. Playing a werewolf circus leader. Yes. Et cetera. Uh, what other exceptions have we done over there, Joe? Because if you go and sign up, you're going to have two years' worth of episodes waiting for you. What other movies have we talked about as exceptions? Well, recently, we've done interview with a vampire. We've done Mulholland Drive. We've talked about disaster movies like The Lovely Bones, House of Gucci and Nine. We've talked about good movies like The Mirror Has Two Faces, My Best Friend's Wedding, Inside Lewin Davis, and then we've even had guest episodes, including Australia with our friend Katie Rich, Knives Out with our friend Jorge Molina, and Phantom of the Opera with our friend Natalie Walker.

And then there's a whole bunch of other episodes like Children of Men, Far from Heaven, Hitchcock, Molly's game, so many episodes that you're going to want to go and listen to if you have not already signed up. But then you get a second episode every month. That's going to be the third Friday of the month. We call these excursions. This is deep dives into Oscar Ephemera. We love to obsess about on this show. Things like EW. Fall Movie Previews, Hollywood Reporter, Actress Round Tables. We've done a game night before. You know we love our games. We do an annual award show for us that we call the superlatives. And we've done a lot of recapping of old award shows. We've recapped an old indie spirit awards. We've recapped an old MTV movie awards. We've recapped old golden globes. And recently, we did an Oscar ceremony for the first time.

This is the Alan Carr Oscars opened by Snow White to, you know, universal acclaim and adoration and, you know, the destroying of multiple careers. And this month, we're going to be doing a just a check-in on the awards race as it stands before we get into festival season. That should already be in your feeds if you are a member of the Patreon as you listen to this, which is rad as heck. So go sign up to This Had Oscar Buzz turbulent brilliance over at patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. Indeed. Do it now. You won't regret it. All right. We're talking about 1989's The War of the Roses in this episode, directed by Danny DeVito, written by Michael J. Leeson based on the novel by Warren Adler. Starring Kathleen Turner, Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito, Marion Sajbrecht, Sean Aston, Heather Fairfield, various other folks, 20th Century Fox, distributed this movie, premiered it on December 8th, 1989, where it finished number one at the box office with a whopping $9.4 million. That's how things used to be sometimes in 1989, managed to get ahead of the first week of National Lampoon's Christmas vacation, meaning the top two movies in December. of 1989 involved burning the family Christmas tree to cinders.

And killing a cat. Wait, yes, and killing a cat. Wow, it's all coming together. Number three, that week was Back to the Future Part 2, then Meryl Streep and Roseanne Barr in She-Devil, and then finally, the fourth week of Steel Magnolias. So truly, if you wanted to hit the theater, that weekend. Icons abounded, right? You had Sally Field, Shirley MacLean, Julia Roberts, Dolly Parton, Merrill Streep, Kathleen Turner, Beverly DeAngelo, Diane Ladd, Julia Louis Dreyfus,

Leah Thompson, Elizabeth Shoe. They were all there for you that weekend. Daryl Hanna, Olympia Dukakis. What's your double feature in that top five? It's pretty easily she-devil and steel magnolias for me, like, come on. Yeah, especially because, like, I mean, depending on how much I know whether we're putting me in, like, you know. But, like, knowing what I know now about the fact that, like, I can go see steel magnolias and she-devil and then come home, and, like, National Ampoon's Christmas vacation will be on TV. You know what I mean? Like, odds are. So, I won't really miss much, but yes.

That's a lot of misanthropy at the box office. It is. She-Devil War of the Roses Christmas vacation, Back to the Future Part 2. Have you finally rehabbed the reputation for She-Devil? She-Devil is great, but has this, like, disaster reputation for a long time. I still think that it is, I think Roseanne's limitations as an actress sort of are on display in that one. But, like, Meryl is perfect, and all the Roseanne stuff also has Linda Hunt as her little, like, hench person. And, like, that's really funny. So, no, I, I love She-Dubble.

And She-Double is part of the reason why she had this reputation for a while that Merrill couldn't be funny. Well, and we'll talk about it when we talk about the Golden Globe nominees that year, because she is Golden Globe nominated. So, like, on some level, someone was getting it, even if it was the Hollywood Foreign Press getting it, and by it meaning a nice... Meryl Streep was in a movie. Well, or a nice fancy, you know, luncheon.

you know, paid for by the studio. But, like, yeah, back to the future, part two is a, like, an particularly bleak part two. Christmas vacation, I find to be incredibly funny, but there is, you know, sort of a dark heart at the center of that, too. And, like, Steel Mac. That dark heart being Chevy Chase as a person. Steel Magnolias is maybe, like, your sunniest movie, and that is a movie where Julie Roberts dies of kidney failure.

and it's the most sob-inducing movie ever made. Yeah, exactly. Okay. So... All gay men are named Mark Rick or Steve, and all gay men have track lighting. Yes. All right.

I am going to bring up my stopwatch. And if you're ready, the 60-second plot of War of the Roses can begin now. All right, Oliver and Barbara meet each other at an estate sale in Nantucket, and after a night of hot sex, they decide to get married. Their marriage basically begins modestly, but Oliver moves up in the ranks to become a major corporate lawyer. Barbara, meanwhile, begins the marriage as a homemaker, but in growing unfulfilled with his disinterest, she eventually becomes a successful businesswoman making artisanal paté and going into catering. After Oliver suffers angina that he thinks will kill him, he thinks it's a heart attack, basically, and Barbara is unable to visit him in his very brief hospital stay before they send him home, the strain between them, become so great that they move towards a divorce. Barbara foregoes alimony, but she wants the

house out of pettiness and weird divorce laws. Oliver decides to stay in the house to make her life miserable and keep her from getting the house in the divorce. Meanwhile, their kids and a housekeeper are kind of caught between them. They're not really all that important. During their battle back and forth, Oliver accidentally kills the cat, which begins an escalating series of revenge between the two. Barbara locks him in their basement sauna, so he humiliates her during an important client in her, so she shatters a bunch of their expensive chotchkes. then she makes him believe that he is eating their dog and then ultimately they do battle atop their fancy but ugly and cheap-looking chandelier

which crashes to the floor sending them both to their deaths but not before Oliver can finally confess his unwavering love for Barbara and she rejects him in the end Oliver's divorce lawyer Danny Thito has been recounting this whole affair as a framing device and a morality tale and uses it to dissuade a client from getting a divorce because apparently he doesn't like getting money and he loves his wife to the end 26 seconds over Yeah That chandelier really was ugly

Wasn't it Ugly as fuck Really really good This is the thing about like 80s Wasp materialism It's all kind of ugly and tacky And like fake expensive There's so much dialogue in here about

Well is it Waterford or is it Baccarat crystal that they have And it's like who cares It's all ugly Well and even when like Kathleen Turner's character. And again, this is not exactly a story flaw because I think like it plays into it, but like her character becomes so possessive of the house because essentially like the one thing she was able to do during all of these years where her husband

is like building his career and whatnot is to, you know, figure out the house, to decorate it and to fill it with furniture and chalk keys and get the floors right and all the sort of stuff. And it's the one thing she sort of has to hold on to, which is why she's fighting so hard for this house. And yet, it's not a particularly, like, good-looking house interior, you know, interior decorating-wise, either. Like, it is pretty bland. And, you know, this is not one of those like Nancy Myers kitchens that you, you know, covet. This is not some sort of like, you know, oh, I, you know, I wish I could live in this house or whatever.

They do have a kitchen island the size of approximately a king size bed. I don't know what you, I don't know what you need that. But it's not like you look. I mean, I don't look at that kitchen and feel like, oh, I would love to cook in that kitchen or whatever. It's like I'd love to entertain in that kitchen. Like the whole house. They have this beautiful foyer with a beautiful staircase.

but beyond that, it's not a special house. It's not. And it's, it makes some sort of, again, like it kind of fits with the darkness of the, you know, morality and the theme of the movie that they're both fighting so hard for this house that I think is just like, it's just a house. And she probably, she has more. not noble reasons to keep it, but her reasons for wanting to hold on to the house have to do with her trying to justify her sort of boogey life to herself.

And he's trying to hold on to the house out of petty, pettiness and malice. Wanting to say, fuck you. Right. Like, he has no actual, like, you know, loyalty to the house other than this idea that, like, it was my money that you used to decorate the house. So he has this kind of, it's kind of a nasty sort of just like throwing that back in her face, right? So you want to sort of, and also it's Kathleen Turner. So like you instinctually want to side with her. And yet if you take like two steps back, you're just like, well, it's not like she has any kind of like, moral superiority. Right. These are not well-drawn characters in a way that even through satire, we have any investment in them.

They're about as flat as all of the things that they've acquired in their home because, like, it's this very beige beauty to it in all of their things, their stuff, and it amounts to nothing. And then the battle between the two of them becomes more about wanting to win. than any of that stuff. It's as empty as all of their things. Right, right. And the problem is I think that's not interesting or funny. It's neither interesting nor funny. Well, so, and I almost wonder if it's a funnier movie,

if Michael Douglas is a little bit less of, like, a yuppie jerk-off, and that she sort of grows to hate him just for familiarity breeds contempt reasons. You know what I mean? Like just through no fault of his own and he grows to resent her for no, like, that they, because isn't the funnier joke that like just the act of like being in this marriage for so long

has like driven the both of them crazy because like they're just around each other's, you know, all little habits and foibles for so long. I think it's a funnier movie if you get Carrie Fisher or Elaine May or Paul Rudnick to do an uncredited script polish. That's what this movie needs. Yeah, Michael Leeson was... Structurally, it's fine.

You know, there's no, like, story beat problems. We maybe never really understand them on an individual character level that might help make this a more interesting movie. Right, right. It's just not... Where are the jokes? Where are the jokes, indeed? The scene where they're at the, they're hosting a dinner party, and he tries to get her to tell the story of how they ended up with their Baccarat crystal, while she is being distracted by DeVito getting a foot job from this, like, Slattern, who they've somehow invited to this party.

Like, that didn't make any sense, but I was like, where does this woman fit into this, you know, she's there purely as a story functionary? Also, they have a completely glass top table. So, like, it's bizarre that- Everybody can see this. It's bizarre that only Kathleen Turner is noticing this happening. And he gets mad at her for not telling the story right, and she gets flustered trying to tell the story. And it's just like, it's a very messy scene. where I just don't think it has the impact that's supposed to. And that's the first moment where you're supposed to start seeing, like, cracks in their, you know, in their marriage. And it just is not delivered particularly cleanly. And more importantly, there's nothing in it that is funny. And, yeah. And, I mean, DeVito kind of shoots the hell out of it. There's stuff in this that looks so good, that are interesting visual.

ideas. Like, I especially think that when you just mentioned the foot job that happens, the way that that's shot. And it's, it feel, I wouldn't go so far to say, like, polishing a turd, but I don't know, polishing your scratched baccarat. Like, it's, also, all of the, like, framing device scenes are shot from these, like, very dramatic angles. And, like, again, it's sort of setting you up for, I think, something more than the movie is going to deliver, where it's just like, why are you shooting this? Esk moralistic feel-good quality to it that feels studio-mandated. And it just feels like there's going to be some big reveal at the end that never comes. And it's also, I think after these battle sequences, basically, between the two of them, it's a weird message to send your audience out of the theater with of, don't get divorced, though. Right, right. You know. Well, it's like, rather than the.

message being, like, get divorced, but, like, don't fight for anything. Like, get divorced and just sort of be willing to just, like, let it all go. You know what I mean? Or maybe don't marry someone just because the sex was good. Well, there we go. It's an odd meat cute for them, too, where it's like they meet at this auction or whatever, and then he chases her down to the, like, Docs, and, like, the next thing we know, they're like, he's, like, really, like, giving it to her. It's in a rainstorm, and she's in a white shirt and no bra. It's, yes. And it's, as were many things with, you know, in DeVito movies, I'm like, I get what we're going for. I'm just not feeling it. And I don't know. I feel bad. Again, I like Danny DeVito. I wish I could say, like, I was a fan of his, the movies that he directs. just can't quite should we back up though to talk about the romancing the stone of it all i was gonna i was

gonna pivot that because the whole like see-through wet blouse thing feels like it's trying to reach for a nod to romancing the stone because these three people were in romancing the stone and the sequel jewel of the nile those were big hits and this is unassociated to those movies though you can why those three would make this movie together it's not like in a way Michael Douglas is the only person

you can cast in his role right because he becomes this through Wall Street which not to get like sidetrack us again into that but like through that he becomes like this symbol of American materialism and greed and like vindictiveness I guess

but like that scene in particular where it's like we're seeing her nipples through her shirt for no reason feels like it's trying to call back to romancing the stone, which is such a fun movie, but incredibly sex-forward in a way that I think today's audiences wouldn't understand a PG movie being that horny. Yes. What's interesting is I saw Jewel of the Nile before I saw romancing the stone. We were at my cousin's house and we were looking for videos to watch and so we rented the jewel of the Nile and we watched that. And it's one of those things

where you can watch it and not, like, you don't need to have watched Romancing the Stone to like get it for any kind of plot reason. They sort of established at the beginning that, you know, they were a couple, they had gotten together, they are now estranged. And, sort of angry at each other, and DeVito's character has a pre-existing relationship with Michael Douglas, where they, like, pull off schemes or whatever. So, but then, and I enjoyed, like, I was kind of surprised after the fact that, like, Jewel of the Nile is considered, like, a major step down in quality from Romancing the Stone, because I really enjoyed the Jewel of Nile. But then, of course, you watch Romancing the Stone, and you're a little bit older, and you're just like, oh, okay, like, this is, I can understand. Rosing the Stone rocks. I think I'd probably only seen Jewel of the Nile once as a kid because we liked

romancing the Stone so much and that was my impression of it. And then I remember absolutely nothing about Jewel of the Nile. Romancing the Stone loved that movie and that was like my family loved that movie. I being big old scaredy cat. It's like I could watch everything of romancing the stone except for the past 15 minutes. And then it was like, the movie ends here, and we don't know what happens. What happens at the very end of romantic stuff? All of the alligator shit.

Right, the all right. It's so scary. And the villain, like, gets his hand chopped off. And it's a lot for a child who's maybe just watching an adventure movie with boobs throughout. I think the thing about the humor in the jewel of the nile that really, because romancing the stone is a. I mean, it's there in the title, right? It's a romance sort of forward. It's like it's an adventure, but it's an adventure of this, you know, buttoned up author

and this, you know, scoundrel of an adventurer, you know, sort of... Definitely a racist white person's view of what South America is like in terms of, like, she has to go to Cartagena, by the way. I was going to say, it's the first time I ever heard of Cartagena, and she says it like eight a trillion times in that movie. Oh, and the way that Kathleen Turner says Cartagena is fully my sleeper cell activation phrase. 100%. 100%.

When I say we used to have movie stars, I mean Kathleen Turner in the 80s. But then, like, you get to the jewel of denial, and there's still sort of relationship stuff. But, like, you know, they're going to get back together. You know, they're sort of squabbling, you know, they're not even exes. They're just sort of like squabbling estranged, you know, partners. But as a kid watching it, the things that we sort of loved was like the whole thing where, and of course, it's very kind of Apu humor at this point, but it's just like when she's trying to get the guy, whatever, the titular jewel of the Nile, to call her Joan. And she keeps being like, no, it's just Joan. And so it's like, yes, just Joan.

And so he calls her just Joan, like, throughout the movie. as like 10-year-old. Joan Wilder? Yeah, exactly. Joan Wilder? Yes, exactly. So, like, we were, like, that kind of shit was like... Romance novelist Joan Wilder.

Yes. That was the shit for us. And so then I got older and then I watched Romancing the Stone. And I'm like, oh, okay. Like, this is like, you know, the scene where he, like, falls face first in, you know, the puddle in between her legs. Between her legs, yeah. But she's a romance novelist and it opens with this sequence from her, like, Harlequin romance novel that she's writing.

and it's so extremely porny. Yes. And I don't know. It's fun. Thinking about this movie was like, you know, we talk about how sexless and like crotchless movies are now. Also, Romancing the Stone, a Robert Zemeckis movie. And it's like, where was this horniness in the rest of his movies? Because it doesn't exist in anything else.

Yeah. But like you almost wonder, romancing the Stone, thinking about it again, got me on. this idea that is like was the prevalence of porn like the more porn becoming more accessible why you know mainstream stuff got less sexually suggestive it's very possible the 80s and 90s because that explicitly opens with basically softcore pornography yeah I mean I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for yes for that I will say we are in a little bit of a rebound year for sexiness in the movies in terms of at least like

all of that sexy zombie dong in... 20 years later, so sexy. Sinners being, you know... Sinners is very horny. Yeah, yeah. So we're getting there. It doesn't help, like, the movies that are hitting nowadays

are just like live action, How to Train Your Dragon, live on Stitch, and it's like, Jesus Christ. It's so bleak and dark to me that the live action, How to Train Your Dragon, is the highest grossing how to train your dragon I know, I know, I know.

What are people doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? Why are you giving that your money? I know. All right, anyway, though. So, um, Kathleen Turner,

Michael Douglas, Danny DeVito underrated sort of cinematic triptych because they obviously, they make romancing the stone, then they make Jewel the Nile, and then they make the music video for Billy Oceans

when the going gets tough, the tough get going, which is, I talk quite often about how the relationship between music videos and movies used to be very different. And I only do that because like the children truly don't know. Sometimes you would get music videos that were just as a matter of course intercut with scenes from the movie that they are on the soundtrack for. This is why you have the music video from Kiss from a Rose that has, like, climactic shots of, like, Batman jumping into the fray. Or, like, Robin, Chris O'Donnell as a, like, whatever, part of his family of circus performers before Robin becomes Robin. Flying Grayson's, how dare you?

You would sometimes get songs that were such, do you. Were you around, you obviously were, but you were obviously a good bit younger than me, around for the days of the Bruce Springsteen Secret Garden intercut with dialogue from Jerry McGuire. Because you also had the version of My Heart Will Go On. That was just Celine singing, but then you also had the Titanic quotes, which I saw, I didn't see Titanic until after I had all of the Titanic quote version of My Heart Will Go on, memorized. Sure. I can't listen, though, to Secret Garden without mentally putting in the like Renee Zellweger. You had me at hello clips and whatnot. So, yeah. Yeah. But so those were,

that was one angle on it. But then other times, you would get the stars of the film sort of in the music video performing, you know what I mean? And you would get that, like, the St. Elmo's fire, you know, a music video where you would get, like, Roblo and like, you know, the stars or whatever would... Going to their little Republican bar in that movie. Yeah, exactly. One of the reasons St. Almost Fire is bad. Yes, yes. They're all Republican. Yes, exactly, exactly. Um, so this Billy Ocean music video, um, it's Kathleen Turner, Danny DeVito, Michael Douglas, sort of playing the like backup singers in these like pristine white suits, just like doing the like backup, like woo-hoo's and whatnot. And it's crazy.

Billy Ocean, who I confess to you in talking about this music video through text message, I love Billy Ocean Should we consider Billy Ocean Yacht Rock because I know it's not quite the

the like Jimmy Buffett-esque sound or anything but where else are you going to hear get out of my dreams get into my car but on a boat

like you don't hear that in a car you hear that on a boat or on like universal city walk right you know Right. Which is surrounded by water. So in the interim between romancing the stone and this,

Kathleen Turner is nominated for the Academy Award for Peggy Sue Got Married. And then Michael Douglas wins the Academy Award in 1987, as you mentioned, for Wall Street. So they're both, you know, coming to the end of a decade of real success for the both of them. They're both sort of two of the, kind of biggest stars in, you know, in Hollywood. And so now this is sort of like we're going to get the band back together after romancing the stone and the jewel of a nile. And we're going to give you something a little different. And instead of this, you know, screen pair that we've

had so much fun with, like, that's, I think one of the things that, you know, the hallmark of romancing the stone is just like what a fun movie it is and then to see them all back together for this movie whose purpose is decidedly like anti-fun much darker right and growing up in a suburban environment my memory of this as a child because i never saw this as a kid this is my first time watching this i think was that don't watch war of the roses it thinks divorce is funny and divorce isn't funny. It's like, well, that's a very suburban point of view. That is funny.

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily that it's about divorce. There are ways in which this could have been a very funny comedy about divorce. I think it's just sort of it's dedicated to being, you know, to sort of walking on that dark side of it. And again, I get what you're going for there, Danny DeVito. But I just don't like it. I mean, and of course, this is the point, but, you know, it's never about their marriage. It's never about their relationship or connection. It's about the stuff because even, you know, the fight sequences become about the stuff, you know, these set pieces that happen.

The movie ends with a fight atop a chandelier. Like, it's about the materialism more than it ever. is about what it means to be married or, you know, how marriages fall apart. Right, right, exactly. So it releases in December of 1989. Holiday fun for the whole family. Holiday fun for the whole family. It's also a pretty well, like, well-appointed movie on a producer's end.

James L. Brooks is a producer on this movie. I saw Polly Platt's name in the opening credits. for this movie. Obviously, James L. Brooks creator, an executive producer of Taxi, the TV show, Taxi. I believe he was created. I know he was like one of the like guiding, you know, forces

from that sitcom. And obviously that's where, you know, Danny DeVito saw some of his earliest success. So it's nice to see that, you know, sort of support there. But like I do feel like seeing the James L. Brooks moniker there um elevates your expectations maybe a little bit yeah it made me wonder if there was a different version that he was developing perhaps with polyplatt that you know this becomes a

contractually obligated producer credit well it was a novel so i imagine maybe like there might have been other people sort of going to nominate this or to adapt this rather um the humor of this movie is very adapted from a novel. Yeah. It's very based on a book, you know. But this is also a, you know, a comedy with a really good pedigree released in December. So it does not surprise me that it was nominated for Three Golden Globes. Um, I also feel like the reviews were pretty good, right? Like the, you know, 83% rotten tomatoes and...

Which for a late 80s movie is very good. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Um... Three Golden Globe nominations, Best Picture Musical or Comedy, Best Actor, Musical or Comedy from Michael Douglas, Best Actress Musical or Comedy, Kathleen Turner. All of them lost to one jalopy in the American South, just sort of trotting along, being driven by Morgan Freeman, Jessica Tandy in the backseat, driving Miss Daisy, fever, was taking the nation by storm, and the war. the roses but was but one comedy that um you know stood in its wake were the roses it's so funny that it lost all three of those globes to driving miss daisy when there's another movie that it should

have lost all of the rightfully lost all those globes when harry met sally is also yeah three time loser in those three categories so yes um yeah driving miss daisy beats out when harry met sally We War the Roses, The Little Mermaid, and Shirley Valentine, Shirley Valentine, the Britcom that got an Oscar nomination for Pauline Collins that year. Douglas loses to Morgan Freeman. Douglas is nominated alongside Billy Crystal and when Harry Metzally, Steve Martin, and Parenthood, Jack Nicholson in Batman. Interesting that they categorized Batman as a musical or comedy because they couldn't bring themselves to call it a drama. To nominate Partyman and original song? Well, also that, but to, but to consider a superhero movie, a drama, you know what I mean?

They, there is, you know. I mean, Nicholson is the headliner of that movie, and he's playing the joke. It's funny, you know. Sure, sure. This is before Gritty Joker, you know. Yes. I still wouldn't call it a comedy, but do you think. Well, and Burton's already known for making comedies to.

Sure, sure. Kathleen Turner loses to Jessica Tandy, also nominated, Republic. and Collins for Shirley Valentine, Meg Ryan for one, Harry Metzali, and aforementioned Merrill Streep for She-Devil. So, we've not gotten really much chance to talk about Driving Miss Daisy. Now, this is your favorite movie of all time, and you've ranked it as such on various New York Times list. Yes, absolutely. On my New York Times 21st Century movies list, even though it's not from the 21st Century. No, so did you watch Driving with Stacey as a child?

as a child. I have not seen it as an adult. I have not seen it as an adult either. It's one of those movies that I feel like everybody feels safe in sort of punching down because it did so well, because it's an Oscar winner, because it beat out, do the right thing, because Spike Lee was so sort of overtly, you know, salty about it, because Kim Basinger, you know, made that speech at the Oscars, yada, yada, yada. Also, it like fits in. into all of these, like, so many, you know, tropes that we don't like as movies from, you know, a lovable, lovable old racist lady has a change of heart. And, you know, the, you know, quote unquote, like, you know, magical Negro who comes in and, and it makes a white person's life better and all this sort of stuff. not having seen the movie in, you know, many years. I don't know if I can make a determination on it. I remember watching it when I was younger and being like, oh, like, this is a movie for grown-ups.

You know what I mean? The originally... I guess. Well, and I thought this movie did really well there. It would have if they existed by then. Yeah. I think this is, I think this movie probably sets the world record for, um, millennials and younger people calling it racist without ever seeing it. You know what I mean? Which, again, not saying it's not a racist movie, just saying that, you know, most of the people calling it race. It's probably about saying. What is the movie's actual cultural imprint? What would it, what imprint would it have if it didn't have a best picture Oscar, probably none to speak of, really? It's one of those movies that, you know, best picture without having a best director nomination, which puts it on a lot of those sort of, you know, it's on the lists with Argo and...

It's so interesting how it mirrors Argo, you know, the presumed number two movie wins best director. You also have Daniel Day Lewis winning best actor. It's kind of wild. Yeah, that is interesting. That is interesting. I mean, I would also say driving to Stacey is emblematic of a sort of. certain Oscar vibe this year. When your Oscar Best Picture 5 is what it is and the darkest movie you have is born on the 4th of July, which ultimately does have kind of a rousing sentiment to it, of course that driving Miss Daisy wins. Yeah. It's, these are all very uplifting. Yes. Feel good movies. And, you know, the darker stuff does not get through to Best Picture.

Well, and you talk about history echoing and, you know, flash forward to the Green Book year, where Green Book, another movie about a racist white person and a black person in a car learning lessons about each other that wins best picture without a best director nomination in a year where a Spike Lee movie is in the mix, but does not win. Best Picture. Now, Black Klansman did much better with the Oscars than do the right thing did in 19... In that it won an Oscar. And that it won an Oscar and that it was a Best Picture nominee. It was nominated in Best Picture. Yes. Nominated in best director as well? What we're... Yes. So, you know, circumstances aren't identical, but, you know, it was interesting that, you know, that history could... And I feel like that was this, like, newly revived like driving Miss Daisy ain't shit you know cycle or whatever which is like I mean the biggest cultural

imprint it has right now is people hating the movie you know people don't actually watch that movie anymore that but yeah like I do think there's a certain sentiment that helps a driving Miss Daisy went you know this is like it's like

Reagan just left office you know Crimes and Misdemeanors is also a lone director, not full lone director, but doesn't have a Best Picture nomination, and Woody Allen is nominated in director. And that was maybe one of the things that got me on this thought thing, that it's like, oh, okay, so why didn't they nominate that in Best Picture? And, like, that's the movie where, like, the character kills his wife or something. It's a very misanthropic Woody. Well, Henry V is also a best director nomination that year for Kenneth Bran. And that does not.

Shakespearean War movie, you know. and then you have like Field of Dreams nominated in Best Picture. I do not like this best picture lineup. It's a lot of movies that I think are fine at best, like my left foot. Driving Miss Daisy, born on the 4th of July, Dead Poets Society, Field of Dreams, my left foot. Field of Dreams, my clear number one with a bullet of these movies. I haven't seen that since I was a kid and I would maybe be inclined to say, sure. It's so good.

To that, just because it has the presence of Amy Madigan. She's so good. She's so good. It's so good. What a wonderful movie. My Left Foot, I remember liking. I have not seen all of, maybe I've never even seen Olive Born on the 4th of July at once. I remember watching a lot of it on television.

Dead Poets Society is a movie that, like, Dead Poets Society didn't do anything to me. I shouldn't be, like, angry at Dead Poet Society. There are a lot of people who feel very, like, angry at Dead Poets Society for being this sort of treakly, inspirational teacher movie or whatever. I have no particular animus against this movie and driving with Stacey as we mentioned. So yeah, it's not a best picture lineup that has a lot of resonance in today, even like in general and you look at the other categories and like who was getting nominated. Like you mentioned crimes and misdemeanors in Henry V. And yet like those movies haven't really exactly like endured to this moment ever even maybe it's just a bad movie even good

movies like the fabulous baker boys like in general bring up the fabulous baker boys like nine times out of ten you're going to talk to somebody and they've not seen the fabulous baker boys and they should do the right thing has endured the little mermaid has endured steel magnolias has endured when harry met sally when harry met sally has endured like these are your sex lies and videotape although i would say that I bet you a lot of people who are even like younger Soderberg fans may not have seen Sex Lise and videotape, but like that movie's

reputation has sort of endured. And like that's kind of it. Indiana Jones is the last crusade. I don't know if Endured is the right word. It hasn't also been the most available, but that's a great movie. You have

Edwards Wick's Glory, which ended up winning three Oscars that year, was not a best Picture nominee, but won for Denzel Washington's supporting performance, and then it won Best Sound and Best Cinematography. Oh, and Batman, of course. Batman has endured from that year. But like you talk about your big main contenders in your top six categories, and you really are kind of scraping to find maybe like the two or three movies that are still, you know, relevant in today. It's an odd year. It's an interesting and odd year, which makes me wonder

why Kathleen Turner couldn't like make a dent in best actress in a leading role this year? Because you look at this lineup, Tandy wins. Fyfer won every major critics award this year. She wins. New York, Los Angeles is a tie. That's the one that's a tie, right? With Fyfer and Andy McDowell for Sex Lives and Videotape and then Fyfer wins National Board and National Society. So she's

like easily the critics champ. Tandy is the people's champ. And then Polly and Collins is your sort of like English sensation, you know, Brenda Bleffen from 1989 kind of a thing. And then your two

kind of wild card nominees are Isabel Ajanie for Camille Claudel. Which was her second nomination. Which was her second nomination after the story of Adele Age like decades earlier. It's her, it's Gerard Depardue. They're like kind of doing it on the poster for this movie. Ugh, bad man.

Yeah. And then you have Jessica Lang for Music Box, because it's the era of Jessica Lang being nominated, being the sole nominee for the... these movies that are just, like, scrubbed from the planet. Well, this was, nobody talking about them. And this is a Costa Gavris movie, even, and it's, you know, a music box. I've never seen it.

I've never seen it. So, anyway, who else may be? So this is, I was trying to sort of look around and see, like, who would the other contenders have been? So obviously, I think to me, the two sort of no-brainers who should have been in those spots, in two of those spots, are. Sally Field for Steele Magnolias and Meg Ryan for when Harry met Sally. Meg Ryan sort of preeminently.

That is a all-timer of a performance. But you look at who else, Andy McDowell wins the Independent Spirit Award that year. It's been a while since I've seen that. Do you think that's a lead performance? It's been a little bit since I've seen it as well. She could be bubbly. It could be bubbly. Definitely could be bubbly.

A couple other indie spirit nominees that I noted, Kelly Lynch in Drugstore Cowboy, Winona Ryder and Heather's, I think, is a very fun sort of forward-looking. That never would have happened with the Oscars. I love it. No, but it's a great indie spirit nomination. You know what I mean?

Yeah. BFTAs nominated Tandy and Pfeiffer, and then because they're the BAFTAs and they sort of straddle release years. Julia Roberts for Pretty Woman and Shirley Maclean for postcards from The Edge. The anti-Marrell in a comedy bias continues. Globes' drama nominees were

Fyfer, Lang, Sally Field, Andy McDowell, and leave Ollman for a movie called The Rose Garden. Sure. And then I wrote down a few, like, other contenders, right? Holly Hunter and Always is a movie we've done. And that Benning and Valmont, which got like a nomination or two somewhere, right? This is the other dangerous liaison. that, like, isn't, you know, comes out the year later. This is Mules Schormann, Vellemont?

Yes, because that's the thing. They were in production at the same time, and we forgot to mention this when we were talking about dangerous liaisons in multiple episodes at this point. They rush it out so that it can come out ahead of VALM. That's why it didn't get Golden Globe nominations because it was so late getting rushed out.

Gotcha. I wrote down Nicole Kidman in the Deadcom. Obviously, a thing that's never going to happen at the Oscars, but like she fucking rocks in that movie. Ditto Shelly Long in Troop Beverly Hills. Where's that Golden Globe in a comedy nomination? She's so funny in that movie. I love her so much.

In general, though, it does feel like it would be very easy to take out Jessica Lang, take out Isabella Johnny, and throw in Sally Field and Meg Ryan into this lineup, right? You at least got to throw in Meg Ryan. I mean, I understand, like, Sally Field is the performance, but I don't know. It's Meg Ryan that I want to put in more. Well, yes, definitely, definitely. But alas, it didn't happen. It still has never happened for Meg Ryan.

It is a bummer. I think in the realm of reasonability, I'm almost a little bit more shocked that Amy Madigan is not a nominee for Field of Dreams. Because Field of Dreams has, like, what, three nominations? Well, Madigan would have been in Supporting. That's what I mean. Because at this point, that's a performance that exists only as YouTube clips to me, because I haven't sat and rewatch the entire movie. I just go back and watch her scenes.

She's so incredible. So Field of Dreams being a Best Picture nominee, and then only gets in total... It's picture screenplay and, like, art direction maybe? uh hold on best film editing now did it only get two nominations picture screenplay score of course james horner's score is tremendous so yeah those three nominations um shocking that that would happen without nominations for either amy madigan or James Earl Jones, both of whom are not only incredible, but have, like, insane, good, big scenes that are, like, they're hugely prominent. They have these, like, clip scenes. Even down to, like, Bert Lancaster and Ray Leota, also being supporting actor contenders in that movie. It's sort of telling how that movie was received then, which was this kind of a phenomenon of, you know, populism, right? Like, people just sort of loved it so much. Um, but it wasn't maybe respected as

much by the actors or, you know, whomever, even though I think it is a tremendous and perfect movie. Um, what else, what else, what else this year? Have we talked about, let's talk about Michael Douglas. We don't really get a ton of chances to talk about Michael Douglas on this I know. I know. This is not the performance to really talk about him because I do think Kathleen Turner is kind of acting him off the screen. She feels the closest to nailing the tone of this movie. And I feel like, of course, you cast Michael Douglas in this movie, given the nature of the character, but I don't know if he's right to get the specific comedic tone this is going for. Maybe I just love Kathleen Turner so much.

I love Kathleen Turner. I do too. I think Kathleen Turner is a tremendous actress. Certainly the Kathleen Turner of this era is, I think, unmatched. I am... It's kind of the last of this era for her, too, because, you know, Hollywood did not treat her well, but also, like, she had addiction issues, and the 90s for her were things like undercover blues. Listen, undercover blues is a good time. I enjoyed undercover blues.

I was also... I was also arguably the only 11-year-old in America who was rabid about seeing V.I. Warshowski the second it became available on VHS, so I ran to my video store to rent V.I. Warshowski. I do think we kind of missed this opportunity to get her as a darker character actress later in her career

I mean I suppose it could still happen but she seems more interested in theater now than in film but like I think of her performance in the Virgin suicides which doesn't need her to be as good as she is and she's kind of perfect in that movie you know because we don't see

much of the Lisbon household behind closed doors we only kind of get it get it in these dribs and drabs and we get so much information about that home and that household from just her physicality, her presence in that movie. It tells us so much. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's right. And I mean, she had to be married to James Woods in that movie. And, you know, who among us could survive that? We should have gotten more

of that vein of her, you know, in this century. So, but I want to, looking at Michael Douglas in the 80s. So he's sort of famously, as, you know, coming off in the 70s, he was a producer on One Flo over the Cuckoo's Nest, and that was sort of seen as, you know, Kirk Douglas's, you know, brash little kid got a sweet sort of producing gig or whatever. He's a supporting actor in the China Syndrome, supporting to Jane Fonda and Jack Lemon. But so 80s hits, he's in a movie called It's My Turn with Jill Clayberg and Charles Gordon. Which I need to see, because I I love Jill Clay. Well, and it's a Claudia Wilde movie who, have you ever seen Girlfriends, the movie

that she directed, Girlfriends? Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love, Love. Which makes me, you know, interested in seeing this movie anyway. Then, he's in a Peter Hymes movie called The Star Chamber that is a crime thriller starring Hal Holbrooke, Yaffet Cato, Sharon Glass. I don't know very much about this movie, but it's called the Star Chamber Then

He's in Romancing the Stone in 84 He's in Jewel of the Nile When was China Syndrome? China Syndrome is 79 Romancing the Stone 84 Jewel of the Nile 85 He's also in a chorus line In 1985

And then 87 I always forget that these were the same year Fatal Attraction and Wall Street So two of the biggest roles in his career, two of the ones that he's most remembered for, he wins best actor for Wall Street. In a slightly different breeze of a year, Glenn could have won Best Actress for Fatal Attraction that year. Like, that would have been really interesting. That's such a stacked race. That's, like, one of my favorite best actors races. It is. Of my lifetime, because that was

the year I was born. Well, and Cher wins for Moonstruck. Holly Hunter in Broadcast News. And then you're also Rans are Merrill and Ironweed and Sally Kirkland and Anna. I've not seen either one of those two movies, so I can't speak to. I have not seen Anna. I should see Anna as much as I love to Josh. Sally Kirkland. And then 1989, he's in two movies in that year. He's in Ridley Scott's Black Rain, which I've never seen, which is a NYPD cop in Japan movie, maybe?

or is he dealing with Yakuza in New York? I think that's maybe... It's something with, like, Michael Douglas is a New York cop who has to, like, deal with the Yakuza and the Japanese underworld. Anyway, and then War of the Roses. And then he's not in another movie

until the flop movie shining through in 1980, in 1992 with him and Melanie Griffith. Fighting Nazis with Melanie Griffith. And then that same year, he's in Basic Instinct. So Basic Instinct is not a major comeback, but like kind of a mini comeback for him, right? He hadn't, you know, been in a movie in several years. I love Basic Instinct. I know, me too. Because he's playing a monster in that movie. And, you know, he's just playing the Michael Douglas sort of character. I think he, with certain exceptions. I feel like you could always sort of like lean back and get sort of variations on the Michael Douglas type. You do it in basic instinct.

You get it in disclosure. You get it in the game. You get it in a perfect murder. And exceptions to that then are like the American president, where he's playing like, you know, a figure of pure goodness. Or falling down where he's playing, you know, this very style. very specific kind of like white man who's had enough of, you know, the, the modern world and whatnot. So, but I feel like 80s, 80s Michael Douglas really is a run. It's, it's, you, you wouldn't expect how far he sort of traversed in that decade until you look at it and you

realized that like the China syndrome was just before the 80s and basic instinct was just after and you really cannot connect those two characters to one another. You know what I mean? You really have to like go through

the sort of star making you know because like the China syndrome correct me if I'm wrong is the first time that it's like oh he's a movie star he's a movie star right movie star but he's essentially just like Jane Fonda's camera man, you know what I mean?

Yeah. He's like, he's third fiddle in that movie. But at the same time, it's like he kind of materializes as, you know, an actor very, very quickly. Yes, yes. So, and the Kathleen Turner movies are a huge, huge part of that. So, yeah. He is not nominated again after Wall Street ever, right? Ever. He's definitely comes close a few times. I would imagine he was probably pretty close for the American president. He's almost certainly sixth place in 2000 for Wonder Boys. It was a huge surprise that he didn't get nominated for that movie. He was also sort of like mildly buzzed for traffic that same year, but like most people assumed that he was going to get nominated for Wonder Boys. That was a really big surprise. He got a Golden Globe nomination in 2010 for Wall Street Money Never Sleeps, but I don't feel like any.

Anybody really thought there was much of a chance of that actually transferring to an Oscar nomination? Yeah, that movie was dead by the time the Oscar nominations were going on. And then you look at, like, in terms of long lead stuff, I think back when people thought behind the candelabra was going to be a theatrical movie, I imagine people had, you know, an eye on that as a contender for Michael Douglas. but that then became a television movie for, you know, the beginning of the end. It's not having movies for adults in theaters. This was when Soderberg sort of realized that, like, they weren't going to be able to get the movie made theatrically because they weren't going to get enough money for, you know, a biopic about Liberace.

And so they had to essentially turn to HBO. At HBO treated that movie very well. They treated it like an event. It won, you know, Emmys and all this sort of stuff. But it is, it's telling of where things were headed for those kind of middle budget movies. So that probably would have been Douglas's shot at a comeback Oscar nomination, but it hasn't happened. Do you think he's going to get anything else before? He's not working.

He doesn't really want to work, so probably not. Probably not, right? Yeah. So it's going to be a kind of a wild. one win wonder, one nomination wonder for Michael Douglas, right? For somebody who was such a star, you know what I mean? It's sort of in that, I mean, Harrison Ford didn't win for witness, but like, it's always that odd little stat that, like, Harrison Ford's only ever been nominated for an Oscar one

time, and it was for witness. So, yeah, I don't know. I've always liked Michael Douglas, I will say, as somebody who, like, grew up watching 80s movies with, you know, watching the Jewel of an Isle as young as I was, I feel like I had an affinity for Michael Douglas that I didn't realize until later that, like, was not shared by people because, like, even the people who sort of liked him as an actor probably was hard to feel like, oh, what a lovable screen presence when he's in Wall Street and Fatal Attraction and Basic Instinct and playing all these sort of, you know, heterosexual male-like. He hasn't always done comedy well.

I mean, maybe his most successful comedy performance is the American president. Though Wonder Boys is certainly a comedy, but that's like the last stages of his acting career. Yeah. You know, and there's a certain level of that generation of movie star broadly being able to do comedy well, except for maybe like Denzel Washington. You know, nobody ever needed Denzel Washington to be funny, but that's maybe not true of his era contemporaries. Right. Um, he also tends to be like, the sleaze who gets the tables turned on him. Like, even in the... A perfect murder.

Well, even in like the romancing the Stone movies, there's an element to that, too, right? Where he's like, he's very slick and he's sort of, he underestimates Joan Wilder a little bit. And, but like, you look at obviously, you know, fatal attraction and basic instinct and disclosure. and, you know, perfect murder. And it's like, and the game, the game is completely predicated on the idea of, wouldn't it be fun to, like, put Michael Douglas through his paces? So before we head out, should we talk maybe briefly about why we decided to do this movie at the time that we did, and that is the upcoming remake.

Oh, The Roses, which I think the trailer looks funny and you think it looks abominable. I think most people think it looks abominable. Yes, I am very much, I am very much on my own little island in this. I'm looking forward. I might be wrong, but I'm willing to give it a chance. I like seeing Olivia Coleman doing broad comedy, I think. Sure, yes. We sort of fooled ourselves into thinking she's a dramatic actress, but of course she is, you know, she comes from comedy.

And I think she and Cumberbatch might have some fun energy together. I don't know. I thought that it was bad It's very curious that it is coming out right before Labor Day Which is usually a no man's land And a sign of this is a bad movie That a studio is dumping

But then again there's a lot of movies That are opening in that window There's this romantic comedy called Splitsville Starring Dakota Johnson It's the same filmmakers has this comedy Like this COVID-era comedy called The Climb that I kind of loathed so I don't expect to like this

also the new Aeronovsky is opening which has been very despite having a trailer been very quiet in it's you know which is probably not a good sign even though I'm kind of excited for it

I know it seems like this would at least at the bare minimum be a fun movie but that's not the window in which you release a fun movie. Right, right, yeah. So it's interesting. I'm also,

Jay Roach is directing The Roses, which I understand, like, having some skepticism, but, like, he did direct, you know, the Austin Powers movies,

so. I do think at the bare minimum, the trailer looks like it might have a more strong angle on the material than this version does, the DeVito version

does because this feels pulled in so many different directions of like 80s materialism, divorce being finally on the outside of taboo-ness, which means that it is still vaguely taboo. And this new one seems to be more gender-focused to me, which, you know, maybe that's even going to feel a little dated, but we'll see. Yes, there is that danger. I think a movie like this at a moment like this, you probably do better to not try and get too heavy-handed with anything. You know what I mean?

It's just like just let it be a comedy about two people whose familiarity has bred contempt. Because I think a lot of it also is, I think their careers being in conflict is I think probably going to be given a little bit more because she's supposed to be like a um she's a baker right like but a pretty like prominent one right like a very successful one um so yeah i'm interested i'm interested in it and um you know as a good olivia coleman fan if nothing else so um i had a couple notes oh the fucking did we really need to have, did we really need to have the subplot where their kids are fatties when they're in their, you know, after the joke of, oh, no, you're supposed to let children have sweets. I mean, this is the 80s. Har-har. I know, but like, ugh, I know it. The one woman who

plays the ER nurse when Michael Douglas gets brought in with his hiatal hernia, is the same woman who was a long-time nurse on ER, and now I've got to find her name, because I want to give her the credit that is due. Yes, Ellen Crawford, who played Nurse Lydia on ER for 15 years, was also an ER nurse in this, which I thought was very funny. What else? These psychos who put their Christmas tree right in front of the fireplace, not in the later scenes, but in the earlier ones where with the little kids, what the fuck? Do you want to be Manchester by the seed?

Like, what the fuck? Same year as National and Poon's Christmas vacation. We mentioned that. Did you notice that when, like, the Christmas tree does get set ablaze in the living room, the daughter who had been making out with her boyfriend in the car, they come running into the house and they both slide across the foyer like they do in, like in the breakfast club. You know, that scene in the breakfast club where they're just, like, sliding out of the frame almost.

And also maybe a little bit of, like, Tom Cruise and Risky Business for your slide. I thought that was interesting. The DeVito quote towards the end, there's no winning in this. It's only degrees of losing. I thought that was a pretty good line. Anyway, it's about all I got. My last note, again, we usually start by talking about the end of the movie here. And I'm going to end by talking about the start of the movie.

Danny DeVito monologues about smoking a 13-year-old cigarette Which sounds disgusting Yeah, just like buy a pack of camels, my friend Like, I don't know, dude All right, Chris, why don't you let our listeners know What the IMDB game is all about? All right, every week we end our episodes

With the IMDB game Where we challenge each other with an actor or actress To try to guess the top four titles That IMDB says they are most known for If any of those titles are television, Voice Only Performances, or Non-Acting Credits, We'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue.

And if that's not enough, it just becomes a free for all of hints. Free for all of hints, indeed. All right. So, IMDB game, would you like to give or guess first? I'll give first. Why not? Okay. I went into the cast of Romancing the Stone, and who did I find but won Miss Holland Taylor.

Paul and Taylor has three television shows and her known for. Okay. Two and a half men. Correct. The practice? Incorrect. She won an Emmy for that show. Okay, but she was never a main cast.

Okay. Two more TV shows. The morning show. The morning show is correct. and the third one I fear is like a Ryan Murphy show but I don't want to definitely say it so so one movie one movie one TV show left to go you have one wrong guess so far is the movie legally blonde

it is legally blonde well done I was like it's either that or one fine day but I was pretty sure it was legally blonde all right so the television show I just want to make sure that there's no other like, obvious Holland Taylor TV shows that I want to rule out. So I'm going to guess Ryan Murphy's Hollywood. Hollywood is correct. The fully memory-hold Hollywood. Yep, yep.

But starring our current Superman, David Corn Sweat, was the lead of Hollywood. All right. Well, I got out of that one with minimal. damage. Okay, for you, I have picked somebody who has starred in multiple Danny DeVito movies, including duplex, not Where the Roses, of course. I have chosen the great Harvey Firestein. Ah! Ah! Um, do we have voice performances in here? Yes, sorry, one voice performance. Okay. Um, ooh, but what voice performance? Well, I'm going to guess Mrs. Dalfire any closer, and you'd be mom. Yes, his best screen. I mean, whatever.

He's had more substantive screen performances, but none. I love more than him and Mrs. Delfth. Honey, I'm so happy. What is the one? He's when Robin Williams gets his eyebrows taped back, and he goes, I feel like Gloria Swanson. And Harvey just goes, you look like a mother. Which is such a tossed off line, but I think it's so funny.

So the voice performance, isn't it Mulan? It is Mulan. Mulan. Good memory. I would not have remembered Harvey Fireston, in Milan. All right, so you got two out of four. Okay. So it's all character bits and character roles.

do I have wrong guesses yet okay I mean is Independence Day on there that's a small role it is Independence Day okay where he gets killed by the aliens in the streets of New York

and says, oh crap one of our greats, the legend This fourth one, I will say, I don't remember him being in this, but it's because I haven't seen this movie since it came out. I'm just going to say Torch Song Trilogy. It's not Torch Song Trilogy. That's straight forward. Man, what other roles am I going to think of for Harvey?

Because they're all teeny tiny roles. I think I just want to move to clues, and I'll say Duplex, even though you told me it's wrong. Yeah, not Duplex. Okay, so this was a major Oscar nominee in its year, but not... Oh, you get the year, of course, 1994. Major Oscar nominee, but not a Best Picture nominee. Okay. Major, because it had a good nomination tally.

Yes. Okay. But also where those nominations came. so acting categories and also see in Bullets Broadway because Woody Allen's director nominated for that movie he's in Bullets Over Broadway

playing a character named Sid Loomis I do not remember I again it's been ages since I've seen But having now just recently watched Bound I want to see all the Jennifer Tilly's of the 1990s What are your feelings about Jennifer Tilley as a housewife. Do you watch that season? Oh, she's, well, she's thus far only been

a friend of the housewives, which is a more advantageous position because you don't have to be around it for everything. You can sort of like come at the high points and they also don't really focus on like your life so much as your sort of adjacency to other people. But she's been tremendous. She's been, everybody likes her. The trend on Beverly Hills, though, is that if they bring you on full-time after a season where you're very likable, the other women will try and, um, uh, destroy you by,

find a way to make you come down on, like, you find a way to beef with you in a way that makes you look bad. Um, that is every, every single time it happens. And sometimes it's deserved and sometimes it's not. But anyway,

um, she's great. She's super close with Sutton Strach, who is the pariah of, That, that, you know, iteration of housewives at the moment. But we'll see how it goes. No, she's a delight. Love her.

Love her. Fabulous. All right. I guess that's everything. Oh, we didn't give you, all right, Matilda Minute. Chris Files Matilda Minute begins now. Oh, I mean, just what a wonderful film. I am not a fan of the musical.

Don't even ask me about it. I don't know anything about that musical. I'll never listen to the score, never watch the Netflix one that all of the videos that I saw were terrible. But, I mean, just kind of the right amount of misanthropy for a child's movie. I don't know. I guess that's just one of those things that everybody has their nostalgia for something that they liked as a child. And while I generally am not too kind to that type of thing, I'll allow it for Matilda because it's mine. Yeah, Matilda, awesome movie.

I saw the one clip from the Netflix movie that I thought was pretty good. Had a lot of energy to it. Had a lot of, you know, kids dancing. I don't know. I thought it was fun. But that's the extent to my, like, I've seen the Danny DeVito Matilda like a long time ago. I don't remember a ton about it. I never read the book.

I never saw the stage musical. And I haven't seen the Netflix TV version of the stage musical. musical. But good for you. I love that you love Matilda. It's your favorite DeVito. All right, folks, that's the episode. That's our episode. If you want more of this at Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at ThisHad OscarBuzz.com. You should also follow our Instagram at ThisHad Oscar Buzz. And if you want to join up with our Patreon, that's patreon. That's patreon.com slash this had Oscar Buzz. Chris. Chris. Where can the listeners find more of you? Letterbox and Blue Sky at Chris 3.5. That's F.E.I.L. I am on Blue Sky and letterboxed

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