This Had Oscar Buzz - 365 – Hanging Up

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

We were heartbroken at the news of Diane Keaton’s passing, so we decided to quickly get another of her films in the THOB books. Keaton’s final directorial effort was Hanging Up, based on Delia Ephron’s fictionalized experience coping with distant sisters during the final years of their father’s life. Co-written by Delia and Nora Ephron, Meg … Continue reading "365 – Hanging Up"

Oh, oh, wrong house. No, the right house. We want to talk to Marilyn Hack, Maryland Hack and friends. Dick Pooh. The pictures presents the story of three sisters. Don't tug at your face like that. I'm not tugging. I'm not tugging. I'm mushing. You just cannot do that. Discovering what it takes to stay connected.

Why can't get mad at Georgia? I suppose she gets mad at me. She's the only mother I've got. That's pathetic. There is far up. part as people can be. You always ignore me. I'm just as much a part of this family as either of you. And I want to fight. Fine.

And as close as anyone can get. I mean, let's face it, God help anyone who needs me. I needed you. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that ate him right the fuck up. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations. But for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died, and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host, Chris Fyle, and I'm here, as always, with my hair extensions that denote the passing of time over multiple shag haircuts, Joe Reed.

I thought for sure I was going to be your short, blonde actress from the 50s, who was always sad. Did we, were we confident by the end that the dad was right that she was thinking about June Allison? Because I feel like watching it, I was like, oh, it would be funnier if he wasn't even right about that. If she was just like, no, that's not who it is. Here we are, as usual, starting with the end. With the very end. Well, not the very end, but yes. Had you seen this movie before hanging up?

yes but not since it was this was definitely like a blockbuster rental maybe like the second but not the third rental choice um because you know like you're you show up a blockbuster you're like we'll get our three movies for the weekend yeah i was a little older than you so like this was definitely a movie that i was anticipating but of course i hadn't discovered the joy of seeing movies by myself uh at this age because I was 20. So I had to wait for it to be available on Blockbuster and watch it in my solitude. I was not yet of age where I was seeing movies alone. I would have been, this opened before I turned 13. Had I been able to achieve my full self and be seeing movies alone at that point, I would have become ungovernable. Oh, I know.

I would have been so powerful. Yeah. There was such a taboo about that. And I think part of it is just like high school dynamics in that like you don't conceive of really doing anything by yourself that is like outside of your home. Do you know what I mean? That like everything is a group activity. And you like, I remember like having to like, I got to find somebody to like see such and such movie with or whatever. And the absolute, ungovernable is the right word, the absolute ungovernable freedom that clicked in once I realized that like, and even still that came in stages, even still that came in like, well, if I go to like an afternoon matinee at like the art house theater or whatever, like no one will see me there and see how sad I am seeing a movie by myself.

Like, seeing a movie at the multiplex by myself, like, took a little bit longer even. But it was just a revelation, just an absolute revelation. Even now you see people online being like, it's so pathetic to go to a movie by yourself. And then immediately everyone's like, shut the fuck up. Free yourself. You know what took me decades longer than that was realizing that you could go to a restaurant by yourself? that you have to be in a very specific mood for and that I think even still I think that's a better choice for like lunch than it is for dinner but like going to dinner by yourself especially when you're like traveling feels very like international life of leisure kind of a thing and I am very much a book at the bar type of I've never done book at the bar but I'm so jealous of the book at the bar people like that is and it's not because I can't read. It's, um, uh, but like the book at the bar people I find to be very intriguing. And of course,

the ultimate paradox is the book at the bar people are the people you want to like, no. But it's like, but I can't chat up the book at the bar person because they're reading a book at the bar for the, for a reason. Well, if you ever want to feel like Chaucer for like 30 minutes, you know, um, okay, my one note before, well, we have to pull it back to the movie. Eating alone at a restaurant, never, ever do it during, like, dinner rush time. No, I know. You don't want to annoy a server. That's foolish.

That's foolish. You will not be, you will be the bottom priority for your server. No, no. No, but that's what I mean. That's why I feel like it's a much more of like a lunch thing. Like when I, I, the few occasions where I would be like full freelancing the New York Film Festival and I would like leave. like a morning screening and it would be like noon 1 o'clock or whatever and I would just like go and have lunch at the Smith or whatever, I would feel like, oh, I am, you know, I'm a gadfly about town.

You know what I mean? My afternoon is free and I'm dining alone. But it takes time. It takes time to get to that point. My point about hanging up being that this was a movie that I was anticipating because by this point, I knew enough to know that, like, there's pedigree here. I remember reading about this in Entertainment Weekly, and I remember actively thinking Walter Mathau is an Academy Award winner. He's playing the role of the, like, you know, dying patriarch. And I'm like, this feels Oscar Buzzy to me. Like, this feels like a, like a formula that they could work with. And I remember having that thought. It was supposed to be originally the fall of 99 that it was coming out.

Right. Which would have put him up against, you know, Michael Cain, which I think is interesting, because that's another sort of, you know, kindly patriarch role. Not kindly, obviously, Walter Mathos, not kindly in this movie, but like, you know. Walter Mathau has never been kindly a day. Well, and this movie really cranks it up. Like, this movie, he is, to the point where, I mean, we will talk about my feelings on whether this movie works or not. But I do feel like that character is maybe too abrasive for me, for the movie to work the way I think it fully wants to. I think this is a very conflicted movie.

It's kind of a movie that wants to have its cake and eat it to. Finding out that this movie was so closely based on Delia Afron, specifically Delia's experience with her family, makes all the sense in the world. Because then it makes some of the choices that are made in this movie that I feel like, well, why would you do it that way? Make a little more sense. I don't think it makes the movie work any better. but I do feel like it makes a lot of the choices with in terms of like characterizations make more sense I also think that there's a lot that

isn't working in this movie that I can see how I haven't read this book but I could imagine how it's something a little bit different than what makes it to the screen well there's a whole background story that we'll get into that yeah yeah but we chose this movie right yes uh it is the final directorial effort by one diane keaton also starring diane keaton basically as nora effron we can interpret yes um and we just we uh like the rest of us we are in mourning uh yeah over the loss of diane keaton and we wanted to do a diane keaton movie

at the time of this airing. This will be weeks after she has passed. But I don't know. I think... It's an interesting choice for us to have made because it was not a successful movie. And watching it from distance, I don't think I can make the case

that it was like underrated. There are certain reviews that I think were too harsh on it. We'll get into it. I think most reviews are too harsh. I think this is not a movie that really works or is anywhere

close to the best version it could possibly be. But then again, like, I also, in our outline, I dug through the way back machine because I remember Lisa Schwartzbaum. You know we love Lisa listener. Gary, we Stan Lisa Swartzbaum. Come back to us,

Queen. This is a, for me and my memory was a notorious Lisa Pan. She gave this movie an F. We'll get into it later on the whole thing of it because it really does need to be experienced to be believed. It is, though, I will say,

it is a pan that I think draws upon, I think as most reviews of that vehemence probably do, draws upon things that exist beyond the movie. Sure. Lisa did not seem to be a fan of the Nora and Delia Efron genre in general to the point where she mentions, who does she mention at the end of the review that I'm like, oh, this is Wendy Wasserstein. She mentions Wendy Wasserstein. And I'm like, oh, is this like a territorial thing? Is this like, you know, oh, there's another, there's a

playwright who writes this kind of thing better and she hasn't gotten the kind of, you know, career that these women have. And I'm mad about it. Did he also see how a Pulitzer at that point? She did, but she probably had like millions millions less money. You know what I mean? Well, right. You know the Julie White story about Wendy White's scene, right?

I've told the Julie White story on this podcast. I'm so glad that I have a play on Broadway, so Meryl Streep and her children have somewhere to pee when they need. I'm so glad I'm successful enough to have a Broadway show, so Meryl at the kids have somewhere to be when they're in Midtown. That's the best phrasing of it. It's just like, where Meryl and the kids can be in Midtown. It's so good.

I love it. I definitely have soundclipped that for the podcast in the past. But, like, folks, go seek this out. Julie White's doing a, whatever. It's one of those, you know, tell a story. Tell a story for a benefit. Right. And she's telling a story about Wendy Wasserstein.

My favorite one of those ever is, it's like, I think it was for some benefit of actors like talking about their weird jobs that they've had, it's Julia Mernie talking about how she did voiceover work for the Spice Channel. You've talked about this on the podcast before because I definitely remember. It's so crazy. Yeah. But back to back to the response to this movie. One of the reasons that I wanted us to like have that Lisa review is I think it's very, emblematic of how people are so harsh on this movie in a way that I don't, that I get it, but it's not, I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. No.

But like the review from Lisa, I don't think I disagree with a single point she makes. I just disagree the extent to which this is like an abominable movie. I think this is just a movie that doesn't work. We'll get into it. I feel like, to me, I would understand vehemence more from the perspective of somebody who is a fan of Nora and Delia and, you know, that genre of movie because you have all of this talent gathered and to have that come to something that doesn't really work is frustrating. That was sort of my thought watching this. I'm like, God, this is essentially the

last Meg Ryan Nora Ephron collaboration, right? I don't think they had another one film-wise after this. I'm like, oh, what a waste. You know what I mean? That it's not better. That to have Meg Ryan and Diane Keaton and Lisa Kudrow playing sisters, and it's not better. Like, ah, it's frustrating to me. Yeah. And the three actresses, it's also like, they're mismatched to each other. It's very bizarre that we're asked to believe that these three women are all siblings, and not even like half-siblings, right? Their ages are too staggered in a way that feels unnatural. Uh-huh.

And, well, I think one of the movies' big problems that we'll, you know, talk about is I don't think it does enough to establish their bond. and I think it like right off the bat is just like they're at odds and they just stay at odds, even in like the flashbacks and stuff like that. And I think part of that is, you know, I think real life sort of intrudes in that and we'll, you know, at some point after the plot description, I'm just going to say the words everything is copy and I'm going to go off for like 25 minutes. Like I won't like my feet won't touch the ground. It'll just be because once again, I did.

the Chasing Amy Adams podcast recently. We did Julian Julia. So, of course, I watched Julian, Julia, and then immediately after I watched everything's copy, which, by the way, HBO Max pulled when it, like, pulled things. And the only way to watch it is on YouTube. So I literally, the only way to watch it is on YouTube, but I immediately went to Amazon and bought a DVD.

I was going to say, do they have a physical copy? They do. Because I might need to go buy that, too. So that was like a week ago, a week and a half ago. And so literally last night I watched hanging up, and I immediately again watched everything's got me again. So, like, I am full to the brim on Nora Ephron stuff, so, as is my custom. So we'll definitely talk about that. We'll talk about the films that she collaborated with Delia, her sister.

I think it's also one of the problems for this movie. I don't think this is true of their other collaborations, but this one, it does feel like it's struggling to straddle a line between Delia's whole deal and Nora's whole deal, which I guess gets lumped together, but they are two different vibes. And maybe part of that is like this definitely feels like a story that's told from Delia's point of view, and then Nora probably did a polish on top of it. Well, what it was, to go by what Delia says in everything's copy, they really, they were at odds during the writing of this movie. This was Delia's book based on Delia's experience with their

father dying. And a lot of that, if you watch the movie, you will not be surprised. A lot of that deals with a lot of resentment of the fact that, like, Nora was off making sleepless in Seattle while their father was dying and just was not around. And in fact, Jacob Bernstein says in the documentary Jacob Bernstein is Nora's son that, like, one of the things that was different that Delia sort of papered over was the fact that, like, Nora didn't attend their father's funeral. And there was estrangement and stuff like that. But, like, during the process of writing it, Delia said that she,

and Nora essentially were so at odds that they ended up, like, not speaking for a time. Because from Delia's perspective, Nora was trying to sort of bring her own perspective into the script and was trying to, and I think Delia resented that. It's also clearly one of the problems of this movie, too, right? because it wants to both be Meg Ryan's character We shouldn't just say that it's Delia because it is a fictionalized telling But it wants to be purely from

Meg Ryan's character's Eve's perspective It's much more a Meg Ryan movie That it is an ensemble movie Yeah Here, this is doing justice to all of these sisters Right, you know? Right And that's one of the problems with the movie

It's, I don't think it can be both, and it would be better if it was one or the other. Right. I absolutely agree with that. Absolutely 100%. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot to sort of delve into about that, and I'm excited to do so, even though I don't. I'm excited to talk about Diane, too. Oh, yeah, yes.

Which is interesting because she's backburnered in this movie more than I remembered. Do you know what I mean? Lisa Kudros had more of the movie than she is. Oh, yes, absolutely. Which I guess maybe makes sense from the perspective that, like, when Diane directed used people, she wasn't in it at all. So maybe this was, you know, something that appealed to her was a character where she wouldn't have to be so prominent that she could sort of concentrate on directing.

I don't quite know. There are directors who direct movies where they're like the full star, like Ben Affleck or whatever. And I don't know maybe some. directors, you know, actor directors find that easier than others. You mean you find it strange that Diane Keaton didn't find an excuse to have a shirtless scene in this movie? Right, right, exactly.

Ben Affleck loves doing and his movies he directed. Right, exactly. You mean unstrung heroes, right? Yeah, the one where she wasn't in. Yes. Yes, yes. You said used people. Did I say, see?

It's not as bad as in our used people episode where, Because, you know, my mouth moves faster than my brain. I say Blanche Devereaux in that episode. What I mean Blanche Dubois? Do you know how many gay guys got in my DMs to be like, you screwed that? I didn't even catch it. That's so funny. My mouth moves faster than my brain.

That's so funny. I know it's Blanche Dubois. What a gay guy mistake. Yes, I did mean on Strong Heroes. But again, as I mentioned in our Used People episode, on Strong Heroes, used people in Cemetery Club, to me, are, like, one amorphous, like, same movie. Unstrong Heroes, Oscar nominee for Thomas Newman's score. Not Diane Keaton's first movie, though.

She directed this nonfiction film about the afterlife called Heaven, which is apparently getting restoration now. I love nonfiction film about the afterlife. Like, that's very... I mean, like, she's just interviewing people about, like, what they think heaven is, you know? And I had no idea about this movie until she died. And I'm now desperate to see it. Yeah, I have not seen it either.

What is it called? Heaven. It's just called Heaven, okay? Not to be confused. She's just interviewing a bunch of people about what they think the afterlife is and Cape Blanchett shows her head. I was going to say, not to be confused with the Cape Blanchett movie that did not have the foresight to have a screening where people shave their heads in order to get in, like Begonia did. delete it bald um okay so uh well we're going to get into all of that but before we do that joe would you like to tell the listeners about our patreon yes this had oscar buzz turbulent brilliance is the name

of our patreon we've been doing it for a couple of years now five dollars a month gets you two bonus episodes every month uh they happen on the first and the third friday of every month the first episode monthly is uh what we call an exceptions episode which is a episode where we talk about a movie, very much like we do on this, had Oscar buzz, but we are not restricted by the rule that we have on our flagship show that a movie cannot have gotten any Oscar nomination. So if it's gotten great expectations but disappointing results, but maybe it got a score nomination, maybe it got a costume nomination, maybe it got, you know, a stray nomination here or there, we can talk about it. So that's opened the door to movies like Tim Burton's Big Fish. And Barbara Streisand's The Mirror has two faces, true abominations like The Lovely Bones, movies that deserved better, like Far from Heaven and Mulholland Drive. Earlier this month, we dropped the episode for All Is Lost, Robert Redford and a tank full of water. Also recently passed away.

Also recently passed, exactly. We are really, we're in memoriaming like crazy this month. Yes. So you can check those episodes out. The second episode of the month, we call an excursion, which isn't about a movie specifically, but it is about instead a piece of Oscar ephemera or movie ephemera that we tend to obsess about. What are we talking about? We're talking about things like entertainment weekly fall movie preview issues or we'll watch an old award show and talk about it like an old Golden Globes or an old indie spirit awards. We'll talk about a particular year's Hollywood Reporter Roundtable. We've done, we will do, continue to do annually our, our, our set Oscar of a superlatives, which is our year-end awards. This month, who knows? Who knows what we are ringing you? I have some thoughts. We'll get into it probably off episode. But as we are recording this because we record decently ahead of time. We don't know what's the, what is the

excursion episode for the month of November, but when we know, you'll know. And it'll be great. It'll be fucking great. For the low, low price of $5 a month, like I said, it's two whole extra episodes, which to me is a bargain. I'm just going to say, I should say that because it is in my self-interest to say that. But you know what? I'm being on the level with you. I do think it's a bargain. So to sign up for This Had Oscar Buzz, Turbulent, brilliance, you can go to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. We are here discussing the major motion picture hanging up. Hanging up. Time goes by so slowly. You dumb, dumb, homosexual.

Do do, do, do, do, do, do. I saw a lot of people in letterbox logs and in a lot of the reviews making so much comment about how much cell phone usage is in this movie. That's so funny because, like, that to me, I don't notice that anymore. When they comment on it in the movie about like, wouldn't it be great to just like not answer the phone or whatever? And it's just like, yeah, I guess. Because Lisa mentions it too in her review. This is the time period where it was like, it was not cool to be.

Cell phone usage was a vice. Yes. You are an asshole. You are an asshole. You're talking on a cell phone. Yep, 100%. 100%. And she's got one of those...

Context, they have a dying parent. They have to communicate to each other. But she's got one of those Zach Morris brick, you know, mobile phones that the St. Bernard ends up chowing down on or whatever. Yeah, it looks like a home phone. Yeah. Her home, by the way, we need to get into it at some point. I don't...

Like, California architecture is a thing that, like, is not my expertise. But, like, I understand what, like, you know, a Southern California bodega looks like or whatever. I don't know what original purpose this structure had, but it was not a home for people to live in. I can't imagine. It has, like, 90% hallway. It's so hallway. It's like, it's so much hallway. I don't.

And it's, of course, it's Southern California. So it's, like, open air hallway. Yeah, arches. Yes. Like, was this, like, an, was this, like, an abbey at some point? was this, you know, some sort of administrative building to a university? Like, it, the rooms in this house happened so unexpectedly. All of a sudden, we're in, like, an office, and I'm like, where did this come from?

All of a sudden, the kitchen is at the far end of this, like, endless stone hallway. Yeah, no wonder they're on their cell phones all the time. They can't find their home. It's the craziest fucking house. Somebody, somebody who lives in Southern California and has. seen hanging up. Get at us and like explain this to us. Like Lewis Pitesman like get at us and like explain California. California explained to us. Clay Keller, call us. Like I don't understand it. Also, Walter Mathau's home, he has that pool with a bridge, which is just like, I hate that.

Like, who likes this? Who likes having a bridge, like children? Because like all that's doing is taking up valuable pool real estate. I agree. You got a duck to float underneath that thing? Yeah. No one wants that. Yeah. The houses in this movie are totally insane.

I had to get to get that out, but yes. All right. The film is directed by Diane Keaton, her final directorial effort, written by Delia and Nora Ephron, based on Delia Effron's novel. Starring, Meg Ryan, the one and only Diane Keaton, Lisa Kudrow, Walter Mathau, Adam Arkin, Cloris Leachman, who... Briefly. Yeah, she should have gotten an and credit for this. What are we doing here?

Yes, yes, exactly, yeah. Eadie McClurg, Marie Cheatham, Charles Mathau as the young Walter Mathau, Tracy Ellis Ross, and very briefly, Celio Estin. Less briefly than Cloris Leachman, though. She at least is in multiple scenes. Yeah. Yeah, Celia Weston is like a fan of Diane Keaton. Yes.

Yes, for sure. We got to get through the box office and the plot description, but I will loop back to Diane Keaton first because I have, the Celia Weston thing brought it up to me. One major beef I do have with this movie. Which is? We'll get that. Okay. The movie opened wide on President's Day weekend after being delayed from the 1999 fall season. It opened against two other new releases, and it was in second place.

The first place movie was The Whole Nine Yards. Do you remember the Whole Nine Yards? I remember it being a hit. I remember being an unexpected hit. A hit, for sure. Also, not good. Objectively not good. I don't remember much about the movie.

And people went hard on hanging up and not that movie. I feel like The Whole Nine Yards is one of those movies. that, like, my dad will watch on cable and be like, you know, it's a good movie the whole nine yards, like, that kind of thing. I don't, I don't remember much about the movie. Bruce Willis immediately after the sixth sense. Yes. It's also one of those movies that, like, that people really couldn't resist at the time, which was tough guy, soy boy kind of a movie, where it's like Bruce Willis, tough guy, Matthew Perry, like, noodle arm. loser or whatever, and

not loser necessarily, but like, you know, because he's the romantic hero of the movie, but it's like, man, I can't stack up to like the masculine idol of my girlfriend's father. It's the same thing to analyze this just with a different co-star dynamic. Yeah, that's probably true.

Yeah. Third place in the second weekend, Snow Day, Nickelodeon films, Snow Day. Who was in Snow Day? Did you end up looking this up? Great question. Doesn't it have a song by Hokou?

Oh, my God. Like Legally Blanche does? Hold on, Snow Day. 2000 film Snow Day starring. Well, God, Chevy Chase is in it. Jesus Christ. And Gene Smart. But who are young?

Josh Peck is a young person. Skylar Fisk, daughter of Sissy Spacic. Jack Fisk is in it. Emmanuel Shrieky from the entourage, the one who looks exactly like Nina Dobrev from the Vampire Darius. Well, of course, Iggy Pop and Pam Greer, obviously, as you would mention. Oh, and Mark Weber, who... Sure. You remember Mark Weber, who's in Scott Pilgrim versus the World and other things.

Interesting. Music. Oh, Carly Pope from Ryan Murphy's popular was, okay. Soundtrack, another dumb blonde, Hokku, first song on the soundtrack. There you go. Along with songs from, okay, I know that it's deeply weird when we get into music stuff on this,

but I'm just going to read you the artists from the Snow Day soundtrack, all right? You will know exactly, I mean, you can basically carbon date the day that this movie was released by this. Hoku, Jordan Knight from New Kids on the Block, but Jordan Knight's solo work. LFO, 98 degrees.

God bless America. Boy Zone. A band called My Town. One word, my town. Sixpence none the richer. There she goes. So it's like they're pulling from, you know, recent, they're playing the hits.

Smashmouth. Someone named Dina Carroll, band called the hippos, the mighty, mighty boss tones, and then closing it out, waiting for a girl like you by foreigner. Incredible work, incredible work. So, yeah, another dumb blonde was a single. So that, I guess, must have been original to this. Yeah, it was originally featured on, so that's, this was the movie that birthed Hokku's

another dumb blonde. That's crazy. fourth place opening weekend of pitch black and then in fifth place the Tigger movie Wow all right You know what? Do they do like every except for rabbit because like Winnie the Pooh movies did well

Did very well for Disney There was a piglet movie There was an Eeyore movie Was there an Eeyore movie? There was definitely an Eeyore movie Wow okay crazy. So, like, we usually, in most episodes, when we look back at the box office, we're like, we used to have it so good. I don't know if we used to have it so good looking at that top five. It's February. You know what I mean? We'll give February of the year 2000 to break. I don't know. What was impressive to me was four of the five Best Picture nominees, because this would be in an Oscar season. We're still in the top 20, including the six.

sense. Are we at the time... But they could not get the insider to ever make money. No, never. Are we at the point where we have to start telling tales, like, where old people with our grandchildren gathered around us about the days in which Best Picture nominees used to be able to play in theaters for, like, months because of the long tale of the Oscar boost.

Like, that just absolutely... I guess that long tale now exists on VOD. And... We solve so many problems if... We force distributors to release their VOD grosses. But even still, but like home video was a thing back in 2000, but like we were still like that home video was months away. You were getting a theatrical tale that lasted months if you were a Best Picture nominee. But they also are definitely making a ton of money on VOD and just not telling anybody.

Right. Unless it's some record breaking number. And Wicked made $70 million in its first weekend. its first week on VOD last year. And it's like, if Wicked can do that in five days, the Fablemans can do that in five months. So the Fableman's is not the financial failure that it's painted to be. And this is the thing is you would think that the studios would want to get this data out there in order to make themselves look smarter rather than having us like bitch at them about pulling movies from theaters too soon.

But also, the studios have a vested interest in making their movies look less profitable than they are sometimes for, you know, the contract. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of VOD, in the aftermath, I guess, lack of better word, of her passing, Diane Keaton, top in the VOD charts with a ton of her movies. I didn't see if hanging up was on that list, but... I imagine Baby Boom was probably up there. I know a lot of people watched First Wives Club, anecdotally, from people's Insta Stories and whatnot.

That was, that was up there, it's, the thing was, there wasn't a lot immediately streaming available of her movies. I watched Crimes of the Heart for the first time because it was, what a weird movie. Is she the one with the really, really, unfortunately bad Southern accent in that movie? It's got to be, because Sissy has a good one, and Jessica Lang also has a decent one. They definitely grew up in three different households, these three women. Yeah. That was a Pulitzer Prize winning play, right?

Like, that was a, that was a person. I think it's Horton Foot. And that won, like, either a Pulitzer or something. Yeah. And now you watch it, and it's like, this would not survive today. I don't, is it Hortonfoot? I don't know. Maybe.

Hold on. Hold on. We don't want the estate of Hortonfoot coming after us and being like that. Dian Keaton's so good in it. Sissy Spac, obviously great. I thought, I remember thinking Sissy Spac was the best one of the three. She has the, she has the most interesting arc. Beth Henley wrote the play, who, and she also did the screenplay adaptation.

So, yeah, not Horton. Not Horton. Hortonfoot. Hortonfoot is Tripped to Bountiful. Tripped to Bountiful, and I believe Tender Mercies. Now I'm going to be wrong. Yes. Yes. Yes.

All right. Let's get back into it. Joe, are you ready to give a 60-second plot description of hanging up? Sure. Time goes by so quickly. Yes, exactly. All right. All right.

Then your 60-second plot description for Hanging Up starts now. Meg Ryan plays Eve the middle of three daughters and the only one who's around to take care of their elderly father, who's declining health includes advancing dementia. Eve runs an event. planning business with the same barely contained panic that she brings to her home life, and this includes getting into a car accident, in the hospital parking garage, a subplot of which I will speak no more. Older Sister Georgia is a celebrity magazine publisher, while younger sister Maddie is a flaky soap opera actress. Maddie's at least kind of a round, though it's mostly to drop off her ungovernable St.

Bernard off on Eve, as if she doesn't have enough going on with her job and her dad. And dispersed into this present timeline, we get flashbacks of various length detailing the fraught relationships that the three sisters, but particularly Eve had with their parents. when they split up, their mom essentially pieced out to Big Bear, at one point telling Eve that she never really wanted to be their mother. Their dad, meanwhile, was caring to the girls, but also a mean, drunk and generally a wreck. So Eve's emotions are all over the places. She waits for the phone call that tells her that her dad has died has died has died. She tries to get Georgia to come back to come. She tries to get Georgia to come back to come. And when she does, Georgia gives a self-important keynote address that makes it sound like she's been the one dealing with a dying father the whole time. The sisters have a huge blow up fight about this, interrupted by the news that their dad has fallen into a coma. As they sit vigil at the hospital, the sisters ultimately reconcile just in time for their dad to wait. wake up, throw shade on June Allison, and die. Having made their peace with each other and they're flawed but troubled dead, the sisters make Thanksgiving dinner together and throw flower around each other in Eve's architectural mystery of a home.

15 seconds over. Well done. Damn. I mean, it's amazing what I can get done when I actually write it down instead of fucking wing it. Probably most of your plot description was the last half hour of the movie, because I actually like the first 45 minutes of this that's much more fragmented, that's just kind of memory on memory on memory.

You know, I have a lot of patience for that type of movie, and even though it's never great here, it's still watchable. A more ambitious structure might have been beneficial to this movie. Yeah. But I will... And like there's that perspective issue we both agreed on that it's like it wants to both be, Eve's story and everybody's story, and it just doesn't work.

Well, and I think that plays into how this movie was sold, too, right? This movie is sold, and you even look at it, like, the poster. It's, like, it's sold as a movie about a trio of sisters. It's a movie about, oh, my God, Diane, Keaton, Meg Ryan, and Lisa Kudrow, like, you know, these, you know, three, almost, it's not quite three generations, but it's like three micro-generations of, like... They're a little tough to even believe as, like, you know, Cussons, I will say.

I don't mean people to play siblings and look alike on screen, but like, I will say, it's got to seem like the same gene pool. They don't even have similar vibes. But for a movie that is about how these three daughters each have very different experiences of dealing with their dad, it could work. But I absolutely don't disagree with you there. But I think here's what it boils down to, and this goes back to what I was saying about, you know, what was going on behind the scenes with Julia. Because obviously this is incredibly autobiographical. Like Diane Keaton's character really is like, not necessarily Nora Ephron in experience. Obviously, she's a magazine publisher and not a screenwriter and director or whatever. But like the.

this is, I think, Delia working out a lot of her stuff, these feelings of being overshadowed by this older sister who sort of takes up all the oxygen and obviously the, you know,

Nora and Delia's parents were screenwriters. That is a detail that continues in this, that Mathau's character is talking about, you know, how John Wayne always said that your mother and I wrote the best scripts or whatever.

And, but that when, and that also that, like, their parents both had drinking problems. And there's a lot of stuff about that that kind of gets yada yotted over, especially in something like everything is copy. You don't really ever hear so much how, like, bad things got. But, like, clearly there was enough. going on with their parents that, like, Nora didn't attend the funeral. But that Delia felt like she and their sister, Amy, but mostly her, was sort of left to deal with their father. And so I imagine that the process of writing hanging up is a lot of her getting out a lot of those frustrations. And you can feel that in the movie, while also,

as you say, this like tension of, well, but is it Eve's story or is this a story of three sisters dealing with that? And I think the movie ultimately doesn't make a strong enough decision either way, as you say. And I think if it's a movie that casts these three actors, your audience is going to want it to be a movie about three sisters. And the fact that they don't all come together until the very end of the movie. Like, Diane Keaton is like, like, they communicate on the phone. That's the whole thing, like hanging up. You know what I mean?

Like, they're out, they communicate mostly on the phone. But they also, even in the flashbacks, you don't get a sense enough, I think, of them as of what their bonds are with each other. There's a lot of talking about it. Like Meg says at one point that, like, George is the only. mother that she has and Maddie's like well you're the only mother that I have and it's like I show me that then show me these moments if you're going to show me all these flashbacks or whatever show me those moments because then the estrangement that happens and the sort of the argument that happens later and when they fight will mean more ultimately the process of watching this movie

is just sort of like oh George is just like an asshole you know what I mean and like that's really her character for like 99% of the movie. Yes. The other thing about Georgia is like she does at least in a front facing way, a public facing way, have her shit together in a way that Eve doesn't and like Eve falls apart. But like Eve has so much on her. Eve's business is such a disaster, this event planning business. She's constantly yelling at poor Tracy Ellis Ross, who does seem like an incompetent

assistants but like assistant but um but like she's putting on this event for these awful women represented by celia weston who want their event at the nixon library and um which first of all if you want your event at the nixon library like i don't like you like there's a lot of stuff at the nixon library which i think is so funny because um that to me harkens back to like Nora Ephron's, you know, early career as a newspaper reporter during the, like, this time, obviously, she, you know, married Carl Bernstein, who was the Watergate reporter. But, like, she famously, like, wrote this, you know, pan of Nixon's daughter and stuff like that, this sort of, like, searing little op-ed about Julie Nixon. And we can't get into it, but the mastermind

put me in a whole Nixon deep dive. Interesting. I'm just like, oh, fascinating. Fascinating. A movie that does, like, strategically place poster of a president's face really well. Better than, uh, what's it fucking long legs? Long legs is a joke. I love it. I love it. That, the Bill Clinton thing is supposed to be an LOWL. It's purposeful.

Yes, yes. Because the mastermind, I'm like, everybody wants to equate this to a timeliness. But like, the timeliness I see when I watch that movie, I'm like, oh, yeah, all of the cutting of federally funded arts programs are why this is all happening. Anyway, we can't get into the mastermind. I love how much you love that movie. Okay, so you mentioned her name is Georgia. We should say Georgia is launching a magazine called Georgia.

Also, they play Georgia on my mind at the launch, which I don't think is like a clumsy mistake. No, it's supposed to be obnoxious. It's supposed to be cringy and bad. It's supposed to be obnoxious. Also, as somebody, again, it's for my age demo, who the launching of JFK Jr's George Magazine. Thank you. This is what I wanted to bring up.

Yes. You can't do that. You can't do that. This is- Oh, you can and you should. George Magazine already failed. Had it already failed? I don't know if it had already failed, but it definitely, it launched several years before this.

Hold on a second. George magazine. You don't, if you weren't around, well, I don't know, you could have been around and just like paying attention. Was it Cindy Crawford on the cover? Dressed as George Washington. Yes.

1995 to 2001. So it's definitely on like the down swing by this point. Yeah. So like it's actually a functioning magazine, even if it's close to shuttering at this point. You can't just have in the real world George magazine. And then in your fictional movie,

world, Georgia. I think you can. I like that joke, honestly. It's like the font of the of the magazine. It even has the same like Georgia is like right across the very top like strip of the magazine in almost the same font. George magazine is an absolute dog whistle to the Nora Ephron demographic, right? Of which I, you know, I aspire to be. It was such a big deal. in, um, I mean, let's be frank, like, you know, liberal upper, not middle to upper class, because it wasn't just like, affluent liberalism. It was, but it was also aspirational affluent liberalism. It was affluent liberals and the people who wanted to aspire to that, which unfortunately guilty. Um, and so as like a teenager, like, I'm a fifth, I'm a fifth. year old boy watching like at this point and i no no no no no no no 15 year old gay guy yes

be clear well this this is part and parcel where i'm looking at this and i'm and i'm just like i'm not even like i'm not even awed by it it just seeps into my DNA like groundwater you know what i mean where it's just like this is the most important thing going on right now and this style of like this. And what's funny is it's not like I read a single issue of George magazine. It was just its prominence in the culture. I never read much Tina Brown like, you know, but like I was so hyper aware of Tina Brown as like a bold-faced name in things. And it's just an era that I find now very nostalgic, even though it's, it very obviously represents a brand of politics that was fairly hollow.

And, like, if you wanted to, like, draw the line, the very long line from, like, this kind of hollow, fashionable politics of the Clinton era to where we're at now, I probably wouldn't argue with you. And yet it, there's so much, there was something to the idea that politics, and glossy magazine writing of this kind long form, you know what I mean? Just sort of like a well-funded

certainly magazine writing was, there was a moment where that flourished. You know what I mean? And I don't know. All right, here's what's funny. I'm going to list, I'm on the Wikipedia page for George

magazine. I'm going to list, I'm going to read to you the list of notable contributors to John F. Kennedy Jr's George Magazine, which was like the bastion of liberal whatever. Paul Begala, Roger Black, George Clooney, Kellyanne Conway, Anne Colter, Al Demado, Lisa DiPollo, Al Franken, Stephen Glass, Rush Limbaugh, Norman Miller, Chris Matthews, Steve Miller, which I don't think is Stephen Miller, because Stephen Miller Were they trying to be some type of middle ground thing, or did Kellyanne Conway just slowly over time the monkey paw just like took over her? I think it's probably a little bit of both, but like having Al Damado as a contributor, like notorious Republican senator for New York State Aldamato says a lot. But yes, I also imagine this was also at the time when like, what's his face?

It's the economy stupid, bald-headed, a freak liberal. He's always emailing about what the Democrats are doing wrong. James Carville, fucking James Carville. Sure. Famously married to Mary Madeline, and he was a, you know, a famous liberal, and she was a famous conservative. And like, oh, my God, but they're married. And, like, this was, that was seen as, like, wow, they can really make it work. You know what I mean?

Whereas now I look at this, and I sort of did back then. And I remember my parents were always like, I don't understand that at all. And that's the more rational thought of it now is just like, how do you put your values aside to marry somebody who's so incredibly, like, staunchly against your, whatever, whatever. It was a different time. It was a, but I think it also is a testament to the fact that like this sort of New York East Coast. But people talk about, like, East Coast liberal elite all the time. The East Coast, nobody ever talks about how, like, the East Coast conservative elite were equally willing to throw their own, you know, conservative ideals aside to go right for JFK Jr's George Magazine. Nobody ever dings them for that.

Whatever. We're really getting far afield. Suffice it to say. Let's talk about Diane. Let's talk about it. George Magazine hit me in the DNA, like I said. said. All right. Yeah, so let's talk about Diane Keaton. I just...

This is going to sound so stupid. Like, I'm merely a fan. She was not in my personal life. But it's just, like, one of those celebrity deaths that, like, my brain refuses to believe is real? Yeah. She was 79 years old, so she was definitely, like... Right. Like... She was... She lived a very long time. But no, she never felt. she hadn't yet reached the point where she had a public appearance where I was like, oh, like, she's old now. You know what I mean? It's like...

Right. She always seems so, like, have so much vitality. For as much as, like, Jane Fonda has going for her, every time I see her now, I'm like, oh, Jane Fonda's, like, quite old, you know what I mean? She's slowing down a little bit. She's not doing as much, but she's still out there. But, like, no, but this is no slight against Jane Fonda. I guess it's just to say that, like, Diane Fonda.

Keaton still felt like an active, like, uh, you know, I don't know. She hadn't, she was great on Instagram. She, you know, it hadn't yet entered my mind that like, oh, Diane Keaton will probably die at some point. You know what I mean? You know, I think we're not to be morbid. Yes, exactly that. But we are, we're at the stage where we are about to lose a ton of greats just by like, they're just that age now. And we are that age. We have been around long enough that, like, these people that we have known for, but it's also, like, this generation of, like, 70s luminaries, that people who, like, really made their mark in the 60s and 70s.

And I don't think we were ever, we ever had Diane Keaton as, like, on the list of we're going to lose this person next. Like, Jack Nicholson has sort of been in the back of my mind about, like, at some point, like, Jack's going to go. Like, Gene Hackman, Gene Hackman had been retired for such a long time, and obviously the end of his life is very grim, and I don't want to get into that. But, like, I was prepared for the fact that, like, Gene Hackman was going to leave us at some point soon. But, like, Diane hadn't entered that realm for me. And now it's just, like, you know, I'm not, I'm not prepared for, you know, the sissy spacex of the world and the, you know.

Ooh, ooh, I can't talk. about that. I can't talk about that. Right. Yeah. I wouldn't have been able to, I would have been like, nope, not talking about Diane Keaton, you know, a month ago. And it's just some of it is you do realize even if people are kind of out there in the public, because I feel like Diane Keaton among her peers was way more public facing, if only for Instagram, you know, like, but, you know, you do realize that a lot of these people who we've loved over the years can be more private than they may even appear to be because like we didn't know Diane Keaton was sick. We didn't, you know. Right. Well, I mean, talk about dovetailing with Nora Afron too, whose death was such a shock for people. The other thing about Diane Keaton in terms of like the remembering of Diane Keaton is as happens, I think, with. most, you know, people who are around long enough. Her persona, as understood by the public,

had sort of calcified into a particular version, the sort of your book club, you know, an older lady, a little, you know, a little goofy, a little daffy. But ultimately, you know, was she also? Now, she wasn't in. 80 for Brady. It was Fonda who was in both book club and 80 for Brady. She was not, she was not an 80 for Brady. She was in palms, though, which I didn't see. And I'm kind of glad that I never saw it now. I don't have to remember because nobody seems to like that movie. And she was also in Mac and Rita, which I also didn't see, which I just, that, that awful poster of her, because it's a, is it a, in a shirt dress. Is it a body swap comedy? I think it's a body swap comedy. Yeah, it's the shirt dress and the weird, like, animal print leggings or whatever. And I'm like, oh, Diane, we want more for you. Or we wanted more for you. And then she was in a movie last year called Summer Camp.

And it's her. That poster. And Kathy Bates and Alphrey Woodard. Like, talk about a trio of actresses who deserve the world. And Kathy Bates is wearing... whose hair, whose wig, is this like a Kathy Dennis wig? Like, what's going on with like, it's just... All three of those actresses on that poster are like, take the goddamn picture already.

Well, Alphrey's not in the room. You look at this poster. Diane and Kathy, I think, are in the room together, and Alphrey Woodard is absolutely photoshopped in next to them. And also not shown on the poster, but apparently Eugene Levy gets the and in this movie. So, like, but she was still working. It was these kinds of movies were the movies that she was getting, but she was still working. She's unpretentious about it, too, you know.

But I think also, one of the things about her, in the aftermath of her death, though, is we do get to remember the fuller picture of Diane Keaton. And it's not just annoying people on blue sky being like, or on fucking, don't. ever go onto threads and one of the reasons why is because you will end up observing a like 20 response thing about whether it's okay to mourn Diane Keaton because of her connection to Woody Allen and it's just like go away just fucking like leave me alone I just this is this here's my thing where it's just like I understand that you know certain projects are more uh you we ascribe them to more of one person but these things are never made in a vacuum and they are the contributions of many people and not just one person and I just, I can't

also like what except complexity. Is that movie a masterpiece without her performance? I don't know. And it's like you can't extricate her work from that. People are allowed to have whatever feelings but like just don't. I don't know.

People are allowed to have whatever feelings. I am not I am not obligated to listen to them, though. Sure. I loved seeing, though, that clip that went around of her talking about producing elephant. I sent that to you, right? Yes, yes. And it shows that, like, it's a good reminder that, like, there is a shrewd, discerning artist's mind at work. You know, when we talk about Diane Keaton.

throughout her career. And I love that. It doesn't make her sort of, you know, Daffy Golden Globe, Accept in Speech, phony. It just means that, like, people have levels. Like the Diane Keaton who made, looking for Mr. Goodbar, and the Diane Keaton who made Morning Glory,

you know what I mean, are the same person. You know what I mean? The Diane Keaton who made the First Wives Club, is the same Diane Keaton who made reds, you know? And it feels so correct that, like, like that clip of her talking about elephant in that way, because I don't think I'd even internalize that she was a producer on that. I had not. Nope.

And it feels so correct that even in her passing, it feels like we're still discover, there's still so much to discover about her. There's a lot of movies of hers that I haven't seen that I definitely want to, like, put on the list. One of the clips I saw passed around, speaking of Woody Allen. is a clip from her in Love and Death that just, like, knocked me sideways, and I've never seen Love and Death. So now I can go see Love and Death and see the performance of hers. Yep, yep.

Do we want to do Diane Keaton top fives? Sure. I mean, I threw this in the outline for us to do, just as an excuse to maybe talk about some performances we love. I don't think I have a super original or exciting. I don't have, like, you know, Smarty Pants pick, but like... Right, well, I'm just sort of like going through now

and like, because I haven't like pre-prepared, but, um, I wanted to... Here's the other thing is I've become a real Family Stone hardliner in the last few years. Like, I've always loved... Under no goddamn circumstances, am I watching that this year? But yes, Family Stone's on by five.

Well, it's one of those things where, like, I've always loved it, but I've always loved it somewhat abashedly because I know that a lot of people hate it. And in the last few years, because I do try and watch it once a year, the last few years, I've become absolutely a hardliner about it. And I'm like, no, this movie is great. And if you don't like it, I understand, but like stay out of my experience of it. because, like, I am not, I am not, you know, I'm not dealing with any of that. I think that movie is wonderful. And I kind of have no qualms about putting it in my top favorite performances of hers

because I don't, there's shades of it that are similar to other things she's done, but there's not a whole lot in her work where we get to see her be cold or harsh in this way. Yes. And it's so conceivable. It's that thing of, it's the thing that I always. always say that it takes someone who possesses real warmth to pull off that kind of pricklyness. I also don't want my whole top five to be like 70s stuff, which like she did an incredible work in the 70s, but it does feel like obnoxiously like film snobby to be like, well, here's my top five

and it's like all 70s, you know, movies, because that's when things were better and what. I mean, of course. I don't... Toss a coin in the coin jar. I am not dissing the Godfather in any way. I love the Godfather as much as anybody. But the expected people who know no other performances of Diane Keaton other than the Godfather movies. It's like, you know... Here's what I will say, and I'm going to get... It's homework time for you. This is what I'll generously say is to you people. To you, people, who like only think of the godfather when you think of Diane Keaton. Go watch Shoot the Moon. Go watch Crimes of the Heart. Go watch. I need to watch Shoot the Moon. I watched it for the first time. Only like that week that she died. I was expecting...

Something's got to give. Will not hurt you, boys. It won't hurt. But here's what I will also say to go back on that is the Godfather Part 2 in particular. She's fucking amazing. in that movie. She's amazing. That big scene she has at the end of that movie with her and Pacino, she's incredible. She really is. I mean, the closing shot of the Godfather, like, she has so much power over that movie in a way that's unexpected every time I watch it. I also find her fascinating in The Godfather Part 3, maybe less for the performance than for

like the fact of that character. Her character and Talia Shires are to me the most interesting in that movie, because they're the ones who have, I think, changed the most in the interim between two and three. Talia Shire has become much, much more Machiavellian in her old age, and Diane Keaton, K. Corleone, Diane Keaton's character, has, you know, divorced Michael, obviously, and has raised her children away from him. There's that pretty good scene she has in part three where she's like, I don't hate you, Michael. I don't. dread you. When she's trying, they're essentially negotiating whether he will allow their son to leave the family business to go pursue his career as an opera singer. And they're essentially

he's letting the son go with the unstated caveat that like Mary Corleone, the Sophia Coppola character will be his. You know what I mean? We'll stay with the business. I don't know. I have I have, you know, I do love those Godfather movies. Like, no. I'm not sliding anybody who would put that in, like, a top five. But, like, when it's your only point of reference. I understand that. I absolutely understand that.

Watch something. Watch a Marvin's room. You know what I mean? Like, for fun. I want to rewatch Marvin's room. You should. I honestly think Keaton got the Oscar nomination, and I think that's right. But I also feel like she's definitely like she's the less.

prickly character. She's the more likable character. She's the one who has cancer. I think it's an interesting Streep performance in that it's like, I don't know, it's a, I don't know, I should go back and watch it. I should go back and watch it. Because I remember thinking that Streep was really, really fantastic. Streep isn't, I know we are coming out of the Topsy era, but especially in this period of Merrill Streep. Meryl's not often cast as the messy one. Right.

Right. Even when she's cast as a villain, it's a very sort of like clean cut, like big little lies. Like you are the bad guy and here's what you're going to do with that. Madeline Ashton. Madeline Ashton is like very steely. Yes. Yes. Messy is a good way of putting that way.

I do want to talk about First Wise Club next because I think. in terms of broad comedy there's a lot of options for like favorite Diane Keaton performances I hate that I don't have Baby Boom in my top five I do need to re-watch Baby Boom It's been decades since I saw that movie Real significant movie in my childhood

Watch that movie with my mom all the time Yeah We need What we need is more movies about women Who Become Small Business Owners And by that I mean starting Apple companies. Right, right. But the first Wives Club, I mean, of the trio, she has the biggest arc.

Yes. It's definitely the biggest performance, and this is, you know, compared to Bet Midler and Goldie Hawn doing lip injection shows. Goldie's my favorite in that movie, I do have to say. Diane's my favorite, just because I think the way that she plays the arc and, like, it is the precursor to her. something's got to give performance. I think in the emotion of the performance

and how it can be both, you know, devastating and very broadly funny at the same time. I think of that Marcia Gay-Harden scene. With the bat, with the phone baseball bat? Not the phone baseball bat, but when she realizes her therapist is having an affair with her husband. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry!

It's so funny, but like the emotional core is very true. at the same time. Here's something I'm going to pose to you. At this coming Oscars, I believe and I hope that before the in-memorium, we need to have separate standalone tributes to Diane Keaton and Robert Redford. Like, I think that's only good and right. You know what I mean? It's hitting.

Yeah. Who delivers, who is the person to deliver the Diane Keaton tribute? Who is the person to deliver the Robert Redford tribute? I say Goldie. I say Goldie for Diane Keating. You say who? Goldie Hawn. Oh, I mean, that would be lovely.

I think the reality is they'll probably be presented together, in which case I would say Jane Fonda. Well, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. I do feel like separate would be more respectful, I think, and maybe not even back-to-back, maybe sort of like interspersed them throughout. Give them both their own montage. Or maybe do, like, Rachel McAdams and Steve Martin, you know what I mean? something. Merrill.

Merrill would be, well, Merrill, I almost feel like not necessarily, I don't know. I don't know if I would do that. And then for Redford, who do you do? Maybe you do Jane for just Redford. I think that would work. They certainly work together so much. Get the electric courseman on that

montage. Yeah. I love the electric courseman. Because I think with so many of Diane's sort of, you know, screen counterparts. You're obviously not going to get Woody Allen. I think Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty are probably best suited to be in the audience for reaction shots at this point rather than... Jack doesn't do that anymore. If Jack showed up for that, it would be... I would be a mess. Yeah, yeah. But I think the fact that like... I'm thinking about that. Like, wow.

Rachel McAdams having played her daughter in one movie and her colleague in another movie, Like, I think that would be, you know, good. What's your next performance you wanted to mention? Oh, looking for Mr. Goodbar. I thought about Goodbar, too. She's so fucking, I mean, that is people, you know, you talk about like bravery in a movie or whatever, to sort of delve into the darkness of that story and to play some of those. scenes where she is, you know, victimized,

while also playing this, you know, sort of very internalized, you know what I mean? It's just like, there's not a, there's not any of that like showiness to that character whatsoever. It's so much in service of

this, you know, very dark, urban sort of low-key horror story you know what they mean but she's just as like open and like just part of the fabric of her environment as much as she is

in any other movie too and like given the material you can see the degree of difficulty for that yeah let's talk can we talk about Annie Hall is can't well it's on my list so but can we can we talk about Annie

Hall in a way that like actually it's so much part of the pantheon it's so much part of her iconography it's so much like oh i see what you mean the lottida or whatever like what can you say that hasn't been said what can you say that hasn't been said but also it's just like is there any kind of like objectivity where you can sort of like step back from annie hall and just be like beyond the fact that like it's in the hall of fame like take it down from the pedestal and just sort of like just watch it and it's so rewarding from a you know up diane keaton perspective i think it's such an incredible character as a performance it's so impressive and staggering and like always stays fresh because in every single moment every word out of her mouth you are

learning something about this woman she's playing there's so much texture to the performance that it, and it feels so alive that we're constantly receiving new information about who she is, what she thinks about what's happening, you know, her constant self reevaluation as Annie Hall, you know, learning about herself through the process of the movie. Yeah. It's just such a, such, like, there's a reason why it's in the pantheon, you know? Right. Yep. What else is on your list? Something's got to give. Incredible. That's a movie that I want to rewatch soon. It feels like everybody. That feels like a movie that definitely... A lot. They put it back in theaters with Annie Hall. I rewatched it for a podcast name Winrom.com.

That movie... You forget how wild some of that movie. The last half hour, I think. think we've kind of memory hold what's happening in that movie. Francis McDormand says that she's in the IDF. That also gets mentioned in this movie that it's just like, what? What do we? What? This makes no sense. Because are we supposed to believe

that Meg Ryan is Jewish? Not on any planet in our solar system. But there's, but they are supposed to be like they're, what is their family name in this? It's uh mozell like i mean you cast meg ryan because meg ryan is the right it maybe not she's one of the two or three great interpreters yeah of you know the effron yeah deal but yeah meg ryan diane king man is never going to be conceivable as a jewish person right right no one that's one of the

things of the fact that, like, you have these three actresses playing very much the Ephron sisters. Something's got to give, though, like, I'm so grateful for that movie because it gave this second, not even second wind, but like, and also Diane Keaton was in her 50s in that movie. So it's just crazy to talk about her golden globe speech, a romantic comedy where the combined ages of the leads is 100. 125.

I love to that. But, like, that's not that old, you know. I say as I barrel towards 50. Yeah, no, it's not. The existence of that movie and giving her another appreciation in her career, especially that doesn't get to often happen for women in the industry who've been in the industry for decades. You know, that's, you know. Yeah.

special. Yeah, definitely want to go back and rewatch that. Definitely want to find the time to go and rewatch Reds, even though it's quite a long movie. Which is the challenger for Annie Hall. I mean, Annie Hall's the number one, but, like, Reds is such a challenger to that. Like, she should have won that Oscar.

Yeah, sorry, Catherine. Catherine Hepburn, but, yeah. You know who's fine with their Oscar take? Catherine Hepburn. Yes. She really didn't need it, yeah. Her in Reds is just such a fucking towering performance. Like, you watch Reds now, and it's like,

Warren Beatty's crazy. Like, he's an insane person for, like, wanting to make this movie as it was made and that he pulled it off. You are not a sane person pulling off that task. Reds is incredible. Also, in this age of, like, fashionable communism, like, kids should rediscover Reds right now. Like, this would be a very popular movie,

I feel like, if people rediscovered it right now. And, like, it has this massive epic scope is about so many different things, sells none of its characters short, even though they're playing real people, but it just feels so dense. in human detail. I need this movie to get programmed at a movie theater, and I get to go see all three hours and 15 minutes of it in all its glory.

It's such a, like, I hate to, again, I'm always mad at myself when I compare a movie to food, but it's such a beefy movie. There is so much to unpack, and I feel like, not just because of, current politics or anything, but like Reds, I think, for at least my youth, was kind of this thing over on the shelf that's like farty and dusty and it's vegetables. It is not. And you watch that movie now and it's not at all. I mean, it's a task because of the length of it. Yeah.

You know, it is not passive viewer friendly. Yeah. But it's just like, it's devastating. If you're in the mood to go and sort of get a overview of all of this, I would also recommend finding the AFI tribute to Diane Keaton on YouTube or something like that, where she talks about filming, or, no, I guess that would have been in the Warren Beatty one that she talks about filming the train station scene from Reds. But so many, I mean, you know I love those AFI tributes. The Lisa Kudrow tribute to Diane Keaton in the Diane Keaton AFI, where she talks about, she just essentially reads the transcript of a deposition that Diane gave because she was giving testimony for some sort of lawsuit or another. It's, I'll find a clip of it if I can and put it in.

So here is Diane being deposed. The attorney is questioning and Diane is answering. The attorney. And are you familiar with Kay Gerber at BPA, Diane? So is she somebody? I don't know. She might have been. Question.

Well, she's obviously somebody. Yes, I know. I mean, I don't know if she was like the person we talked to all the time, which I never did anyway. I don't know. I don't know. I guess, obviously, she must be somebody if you brought her name up. But maybe she was at BPA.

the question was I don't know what does she do the question is do you remember her if you don't that's fine do you remember her well I feel bad Kay

wherever you are I don't remember you question do you know a name Maggie Jones Borland does that ring a bell answer well I think I remember

because I think she was cute. Okay, so that means Kay wasn't cute? Kay was attractive, I'm sure. I don't know. I can't remember Kay. But Maggie, I think, was very thin or something. There were some distinguishing features she had. All right, what about Menno Popper?

Whoa, that's a great name. Meno Popper. Yes, that I remember too. I remember that name. Do you know if she had anything to do with you? BPA. I'm assuming she did. Menopopper. I mean, come on. I'm glad that it created a strong bond among these actresses because it doesn't give you what you want by the three of being on screen. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And that is, I think,

the frustrating thing about the movie, while also, again, if you know the real story behind it, it's very understandable that all of these sort of shortcomings for the movie, you definitely understand it. I understand that, like, I, not everybody is under the obligation to grant the Ephron sisters as much sort of leeway, creative leeway as I do, because I, you know, love their story as much as, you know, as much as I do, their, you know, their real life story. Have I forced you to watch everything as copy yet, or have you still not watched it? I've seen everything as copy multiple times. You're not forcing. me to do shit. Okay. I also will sob at everything's copy any day. I press that movie

on to as many people as I can because it is, it's not only just, you know, it's actually, it takes a very interesting, for a movie made by her son that in many ways is just sort of like, look at all the great things my mom did. It actually does take a really interesting. perspective in that it talks about how this, you know, woman who quite famously like mined her own life for material in every way. That's what the title means. The title, Everything is Copy, comes from her mother, who was a screenwriter along with her father, who anytime any of the girls would come back with something bad that had happened to them, their mother would just brush it off and say, everything is copy. Essentially everything.

is fodder for something that you'll write about, you know, in the future. And I think in this circumstance, in some of these circumstances, these like directorial profile documentaries, I bristle at the, I don't want to say naive, but very simple criticism that like, well, it's made by her son. Or like something like Mr. Scorsese, well, it's made by another, like a director who's like welcome in Martin's Gorses's home because it's just like I don't know we watch these things to get at who the artist is as a person on top of what we appreciate about their work right right and that's what makes it so good because you do get this vulnerability from the people in their circle that they feel more Much more comfortable, exactly. You're not going to get Carl Bernstein sort of talking about how, you know, heartburn put a wedge between him and his children for so long. You're not going to get, you know, I don't know, it's, it is true that like these people sort of open up. I think that's why all the Delia stuff in everything's copy is so good, because it's just the two of them sort of, you know, digging,

into their own kind of family stuff. And, but sort of the thesis of the movie being like that, you know, Nora, who was so famously willing to write about her own life, then very actively hid the fact that she was dying, not only from the world, but from most of the people in her life, that like up until the very end, nobody knew she was sick. And you get this cavalcade of people, Rosie O'Donnell and Mike Nichol, and various sort of, you know, friends of hers talking about the last sort of meals that they had that, like, Nora, like, invited them out to lunch or, like, called them on the phone or whatever. And unbeknownst to them, this was, you know, sort of the goodbye, you know, the goodbye lunch, the goodbye, you know, a phone call or whatever. But that ultimately, you know, everything was copy up until the end, which I think is, you know,

It's an interesting thesis. Like, yes, there is no sense of journalistic objectivity, and, you know, that can... Why the hell would you watch an objective profile of Nora Ephron or Steven Spielberg or Martin Scors? This is the thing. Who wants to watch that? We're not talking about Henry Kissinger. If Henry Kissinger's son wants to make a documentary about Henry Kissinger, yeah, I will find that to be an incredibly suspect and unsatisfying. thing. But like, I don't need to, like, you know, reckon with, you know, the life of somebody

like Nora Ephron in that same way. Not to sound pretentious about it, but we're talking about people who are in our lives and in the zeitgeist because they mine the human experience. So why would you want to profile about them that is not about their human experience? Especially if they're like guarded or in the case of someone like Nora Ephron, their experience is always told through their own lens. So when you have it through someone else's or through the lens of all of the people in their lives, that is inherently interesting. Well, and to pull it back to hanging up, one of the things that was, I think, always so great about particularly Nora Ephron's. scripts, particularly the rom-com scripts. You know, when Harry met Sally, The Sleepless in Seattle, you've got mail, is that she would write these characters who,

you know, there's so much of her in so many, in all of those characters in, you know, in various ways. But she would write that in a way that felt very recognizable to any number of human sort of foibles and obsessions. The way that Meg Ryan's character talks about emailing or like getting on her computer and like whatever, it's like, yes, like that was a recognizable thing, particularly at that era of, you know, of time. The way that like Billy Crystal and Meg Ryan's characters and when Harry met Sally talk about relationships that resonated with a lot of people. And I think when you come to something like hanging up, it's not that Delia Ephron is not as good of a writer, although objectively not, you know, that's a

high bar to clear. It's that I think that they were writing so specifically about their own very, very, very, you know, unique experience, like with their father who was, you know, I think they struggle in this movie to make, to translate that into something that feels legible to everybody else. And the only real reason, the only real way to make sense of this movie is to know the story behind the scenes. I think it's, and that ultimately makes for an incomplete movie. And I think it makes for an unsatisfying movie more than anything else. I don't think it's, it's, garbage. I don't think it's useless. I think there are things in it that I really like.

There's a lot in it that's so close to working, too. It's not like this is a bomb in everything. I think with a few tweaks, I think this could be one of the like really memorable Meg Ryan performances. And I just ultimately think there's the character isn't quite there. I feel like the opposite, and as much as I hate to say it, I think one of the things that makes the movie better is recasting. You think just get rid of her in time. I hate to say that because I love her, but, yeah, I think. I really think she's, I sympathize with her. I think in a way that, like, I don't know, I, I, maybe it's just that I miss Meg Ryan, you know what I mean?

Yeah. that I watch a movie like this, and I'm just like, oh, like, she really did have it for like 10 good years there. And she makes it look easy that we can sympathize with her characters so easily in most of her movies. I will say this movie does not do well by her in the hair department in any phase. I literally have it in the outline. Is she winning or losing the bob off? Oh, she's losing. Because when you can tell that it's her natural hair.

I will say this era of fashionably chopped short haircuts for women, I don't know who... Does not age well. Whoever looked really good with that kind of hair. Like, honestly, truly. It's so... It's rough. It's rough. There's one scene where it looks like the short bob is like natural.

her hair. It's the birthday party scene, which that's when the movie kind of falls apart for me, where it's just like, this is very cliche, here's where the estrangement settles in type of scene. I think it also... But it looks like they just shoves some extensions into her hair and like pat her on the back of the head to make sure the glue stuck in place. Yeah. Well, and that's the other flashback where they're just like, just throw a long haired wig on her. Just throw long blonde hair on her. And it's just like, okay. I think that, to, I think the movie tries to, to get, you know, to get laughs out of some of the flashback stuff, like Lisa Kudrow dressed as, like, in Madonna, you know, in 80s Madonna, you know,

style or whatever. Then catching her dad, getting it on with... Edie McClurg. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that to me, I like that scene, if only because it's the sisters sort of like laughing together. Yeah, I watched that scene. like, oh, this scene happened because they needed something for the trailer.

Yeah. Yes. I thought of that a few times in the movie. I was like, oh, yeah, this is here for the trailer. Yeah, I guess I see your point that if they recast that Meg role, I think part of me just sort of longs for that last great Meg Ryan sort of serious comedy. Because this movie probably marks the beginning of the end. It's the same year's Proof of Life.

Proof of Life is the end of 2000. This is the beginning of 2000. Proof of Life comes out in November, December of that year. And that really is the line of demarcation in terms of like, that's when the public sort of fell out of love with her. And that's when, you know, that was the career took the down swing from there. It's sad to say. And I hate to contribute to that in any. Anyway, but I do think what part of what's not working is her being miscast in this role.

I'm almost a little more frustrated, actively frustrated watching the movie with the Lisa Kudrow stuff, though I don't think she's bad. Don't necessarily think she's miscast, but she's drawn rather broadly. The flaky soap opera actress, like that feels like a first thought that maybe needed to get refined. in like the sway of Phoebe Buffet where all anybody thought Lisa Kudrow could do was play someone dumb and it's not like a it's not like Michelle Weinberger

you know where she actually is doing something really smart playing someone who's not right you know who's not the sharpest tool in the shed though that's part of the joy of Romeo Michelle is that like these are actually smart care smart women and it's like this is so fresh

off of the opposite of sex. Which was such a revelation, where she really played this, like, very atypical Lisa Kudrow character, but played it so well. Mm-hmm. Lucia. I love that scene in the movie where she's like... Lucia isn't a name. Which is like, it's, like, it should be pronounced Lucia, but it's not because she wants

it to rhyme with Marcia, so it's Lucia. Which I think is so funny. There's a scene in this movie, because she's playing a soap actress. and they're in Walter Mathau's hospital room that I'm like, oh, this is so clearly an ad lib, but I wonder if it's so far into an ad lib that it's just Walter Mathau being an asshole on set. He jokes, he's like, I was arrested one time,

and they put me in solitary confinement, and as a torture device, they made us watch your show. And I was like, he's talking about friends. He's talking about it. But she reacts to it so, like, genuinely that I think it's funny. I also like, I mean, you know how much of a, you know, soap opera boy that I am. I've been going on a kick on Instagram recently. I've just like, finding old soap opera clips.

Whatever, you're going to put up with it. Every time I see it, I am like, go off clean. You're going to put up with it. I love you in this mode. But the soap opera stuff is very, again, feels first thought, feels very, like, non-specific and, you know, all could have been done a lot smarter. It's so funny to me that she, not funny, not funny, ha-ha, but like, odd, that the beat at the end of the movie is that somebody in the hospital recognizes her from her soap, which, like, if you know anything about soap opera actors, like, that is not the first time that ever happened to that character. Like, those people get unsolicited feedback all the time.

Especially if she's living in Los Angeles. But we're kind of led to believe that she's not even like a marquee soap star. She's like sea level for soaps, you know? Even still. She has a recurring role, but she's not what people. That is, I will say, though, the type of thing that soap opera actors will get, which is people on the street reacting to them and telling them stuff from the storyline and being like, watch out for that Madison, because she's trying to steal your man or whatever.

Yeah, I think that character is not drawn particularly well, which it's the sister who is not represented in the writing of the movie, which, you know, unfortunately you can tell. I also think there's a modulation problem for me with the father character where he just, tips too far into the reprehensible that then I'm puzzled that the movie isn't more about them struggling how to mourn a father who was so frequently cruel to them. They touch on that with the Eve character, but like, in my opinion, not enough to balance out how really awful they show him being in a lot of these flashbacks, how that scene at the birthday party, it's so bad. It's so incredibly cruel. And like, he's so, and it's sort of the same thing with the mom, with having the mom just be like, I never wanted to be a mom. I don't

want to be your mom now, like, sorry to say. And it's like, wow, it's, it's maybe too much to bounce back with light comedy, you know? Yeah, it's not really Nora or Delia's it's not like the type of character note that they strike in any of that. And it's because they're drawing from real life. It's because they're trying to sort of like communicate this thing. And it's the same thing with how harshly Georgia as a character is drawn, where she's just absolutely irredeemable for the first four-fifths of this movie. And again, if you know the story behind the movie, you understand why, you understand the frustrations that the writer that is getting out. But also, like, as an end user, my perspective is, well, why is

Diane Keaton's character so one-dimensional for so much of this movie. And then all of a sudden she just sort of like comes around. And they're, you know, you end the movie with this very cliched kitchen fight. Can I also say, was I the only one who was very concerned that they were throwing flour at each other with salmonella fingers having just stuffed to this turkey? That's all I could think of was just like, there is salmonella being flung across this room. and they will not have a happy Thanksgiving weekend. Their Black Friday is going to be spent on the toilet, which God knows where they put a bathroom in that house of Meg Ryan's in this movie.

Yeah, you've got to just keep wandering hallways. Eventually you'll find you. It's in an alcove underneath this arch or whatever. If you don't die first, eventually you will find a bathroom. Just keep walking. The impermanence of her. family is also very funny, where it's like Adam Arkin, he plays her husband, who is just like in South Dakota working on, I think it's a movie. I think he's a director of some sort.

There's a child's birthday party, and I think that's the first time we see that child. It isn't because when she comes home with the cracked up car, he's like, I've been working on a funny voice or a funny laugh, and he's like, his whole character is, I laugh like Pee We Herman now, and it's like, it's so weird and it's so obnoxious. I mean, that's your average six-year-old boy, so yeah. Yeah. Walter Mathau. Yes.

It's a shame that you don't really have much to say about him in this movie, except for those moments where it definitely feels like ad lip happening. But he passes between production and the release of this movie. Walter Mathau is just one of those guys that it's like, yeah, known asshole. I still love him. I'm still so happy to watch him do anything. He's a multiple-time Oscar nominee. He's an Oscar winner for The Fortune Cookie.

He was, like, host or de facto host, or, like, one of many hosts of the Academy Awards for, like, several years. He was, like, a huge presence at the Oscars. It does say something about how very much this movie got, like, boxed away, and, like, let's not talk about it anymore, that Mathau didn't ultimately warrant a posthumous supporting actor push. It definitely would have been part of the attention or the intention, especially when this movie had a fall release. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I will one million percent be watching Grumpy Old Men very soon. Oh, what a great movie. I mean... Looks like Chuck's going to put the hot dog in the bun! Looks like Chuck's taking the old log to the beaver. Yeah, it looks like Chucks taking the skin bolt to tuna down. Looks like Chucks taking a ride on the wild baloney pony.

It looks like Chucks, a tomcat on the prowl. Yow! It feels like a Thanksgiving movie, even though I don't think it is, like textually in any way. But, like, it does feel like a movie you would watch over Thanksgiving weekend. Is there anything we want to talk about before? where you talk about the Lisa Schwartzbaum review, and I empty my notebook of various... Well, what else is there for...

I mean, first of all, one thing that we love here, maybe we should do an excursion of all of the different Lisa Schwartzbaum F reviews that we can find. This is more your obsession than mine, but I will happily join you on this. A Lisa Schwartzbaum, like, Pan is just a beautiful thing to behold. Again, in her F review, I don't disagree with anything she says, especially when she points out the, like, heart-to-heart scene that Meg Ryan has with her doctor's mom, where it's just like, this woman who is, like, painted as a, like, magical Muslim woman only exists.

That's not good. And it's part and parcel of that whole, like, I think unnecessary subplot with the car accident in the parking garage and like the doctor. This is also definitely one of the scenes I meant that like it could have very likely been something different in the book. Or it could have been like a thing that actually happened and they're like, but it actually happened. So we have to keep it, which I feel like is the thing that sometimes happens. I will say this quote I'll read which I don't agree with she says Schwartz's Lisa Schwartzbaum says a smug self-serving charmless exercise in niche marketed sentiment it seemingly congratulates baby boomers for dealing maturely with their aging parents

parentheses as opposed to what leaving them in dumpsters weirdly capitalizes dumpsters because apparently dumpster is a proper name like Kleenex which I didn't know that but that makes sense. Interesting. But actually, hanging up congratulates only novelist Delia Efron and her older sister and co-screenwriter Nora Ephron on exploiting their own family dynamics for personal game. Now, I don't co-sign any of this. I don't find the movie particularly smug. Self-serving in a way, but in a way that, like, you know, have some compassion. Charmless, Okay. Niche-marketed sentiment only in a way that I feel like if you want to mention niche-marketed sentiment, you have to talk about the ways in which that is like at odds with a lot of other things in the movie. I don't think you watch this movie and you feel like, oh, this is like really slathering on the sentimentality. At times, it is like very bracingly unsentimental. congratulating baby boomers for dealing maturely with their aging parents really really glides

over a lot of the sort of traumas of that genre well and traumas of this particular of this particular characters in this like of these particular characters um exploiting their own family dynamics for personal gain i guess you can take that opinion i feel like and i think as you read the rest of this review, you really get a sense that, like, Lisa Schwartzbaum just does not like the Nora Ephron thing. Right. Well, the thing that she does say that I do wholeheartedly disagree with is that women are never treated with more disdain than in Ephron productions.

First of all, Lisa, you're going all in. That's sort of, that's what I mean. It's pretty telling. This is what's kind of fun is because, like, when she wants to burn a movie, she wants to scorch the earth. But it feels like this has been bubbling up from like, this is somebody categorically wrong. This is bubbling up from somebody who didn't like sleepless in Seattle, didn't

like you've got mail, like is really like, does not like the Nora Ephron heroin because for whatever. And again, people are within their rights to not like things. But that does feel like where it's coming from. It's just like she's staked her, she's planted her flag in the. Anti-Nor-Effron. But to call, like, Efron movies the most woman-hating of all woman-hating movies is a wild call. I also feel like it may stem from the fact that, like, this movie is being distributed in 2000.

So, like, we are at the end of essentially the rom-com decade that is dominated by, that, like, rom-coms have taken the form of the Nora Ephron movie. And I imagine if, and also with that then, have been sort of made the butt of jokes or there was a lot of like, we are now in a very sort of respectful period of Nora Afron's life and career and work. There was a time where her name was shorthand for corny, overla, like overly sappy um obnoxious romantic comedy like there was a lot of people who there was a you know a sentiment out there that like these movies were direct these movies were

you know garbage and um i imagine if and that and that by extension romantic comedies were you know direct and so i imagine if somebody like lisa schwartzbaum maybe resents the fact that like all romantic comedies are being characterized by this one artist and they're being summarily dismissed and you're not really into it, then that maybe breeds a good degree of professional resentment and, or critical resentment rather. So listen, Lisa is at her leisure. I also love Give Me Sisters by Shakespeare, Chekhov and Wendy Wasser, or give me Xanax. Again...

I don't think a Xanax is what you need from watching this movie. No. No. Although, I mean, it's a very hectic movie. Everything about Eve's character is harried and hectic. She's always sort of, you know, running.

She's always overwhelmed. Like that kind of a thing. There is a degree of watching this movie and you're just like, I need everybody to chill out. for a second. Everything, all the scenes with her and her father. They're doing very unchill things.

Her father is very sort of, you know, he's always talking. He's always sort of, you know, you want him to calm down. You want her to calm down. This is maybe why Georgia is living in New York City, you know, and doesn't want to deal with it. I don't know. You know, she just listens to Georgia on my mind on a loop in her home. I also love that the. magazine cover, the Georgia magazine cover, is, of course, her with a cigar, because the power woman with a cigar thing was so big in the 90s.

Like, it was, it was, it was real. That cigar was, um, a symbol. And obviously, you know, and obviously, you know, phallic symbol, but it was women sort of, you know, if you wanted to communicate that a woman was as powerful as a man, You give her a cigar and a suit. Yeah, give her a cigar and a power suit. Yeah. To close the loop on the critical assessment and then move on to the IMDB game. Well, I want to empty my notebook first because I have a couple of things. Yes, let's empty our notebook, but then I also want to see if you can rank by Rotten Tomato score all of the Delia Nora Ephron collabs. But let's get into our notes.

Okay. My first note was that they mentioned that he had been living in the motion picture old folks' home, which is also, I feel like, where the Eli Wallach character in the holiday is living, if I'm not mistaken. Is this not incredible fodder for a film or even, I would say, a television series? Why is Amy Sherman Palladino not making her next series set in the Hollywood movie? old folks home. She would be perfect at that. He wrote movies for John Wayne. Oh, so this is a thing that I imagine is going to fit in the window of things that will

make sense for me, but not necessarily for you because of our ages. The scenes at the beginning where Lisa Kudrow is in Montana fly fishing and she, you know, loses her phone or whatever, the guy she was with who was credited in the movie as Montana dude. I was like, is that Lucky Vanus? And yes, it is Lucky Vanus. Now, that is not a name that should mean anything to anybody. But there was a commercial that I believe was for Diet Coke that was a bunch of women in an office.

And they would be like, it's almost 1230. Diet Coke. Diet Coke break. I don't want you to be no slave. And they would all, you know, gather together and they'd go by the window. And because at 12.30, this construction guy across the way would take a break, take a shirt off, and drink a Diet Coke. See you tomorrow? 1130.

This commercial was a fucking sensation. This thing was like this, and this Lucky Vanus was the guy. I will send you. if you bear with me, I'm just going to send you the ad. Oh, I think I have seen this. It's just the horniest women. And there's this Edithjames song that's playing in the background. But, like, this commercial was massive.

Do you remember when, like, um, Allie Landry, not Ellie Larder, but Allie Landry got famous for being like the girl from the Doritos commercial. Like, this used to be a thing that would sometimes happen where... Hot people in commercials. Hot people in commercials who were not famous before the commercial got famous for being in a commercial. And also, not only hot, sometimes you were the old lady and where's the beef or whatever. You remember that, I mean, you're too young for that, but like that is historical. I've seen I Love the 80s.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I imagine this Diet Coke ad was in I Love the 90s at some point because it was... Maybe that's where I've seen it. This is very familiar to me. It's also not to keep bringing up animal Instagram accounts because I know you care about that less than I. But it is like Merv, who I love Merv. That's the replacement. Anybody who follows Merv the pet, it's giving Charles.

Okay, I don't know what that means, but that's fantastic. Charles is their gardener who Merv is in love with, and Charles is always working shirtless. Okay, well, there we go. Maybe he takes a Diet Coke break. And Murv watches Charles at the window. Well, I'll try and remember to link out. This is all stuff that we'll be able to do when we have a website. But I'll link out to the Diet Coke Lucky Vanus commercial. But I was happy that my 90s brain, I may be still Allising, but I can still remember the Diet Coke commercials. it's so funny this sort of this guy too fell into the bucket of like george cluny to me like er george cluny

where i would watch it and just be like i understand everybody thinks that this guy is hot but like it's not quite my brand of hot and i was still like again mid 90s you know i was already at the point where i was like finding men in media attractive but like this guy particular i'm like this guy's for the ladies like this guy is for the like the middle aged not middle age but like 30-something women at the office. Eve's son's pee-wee-Herman laugh, the chopped haircut. Walter Mathau saying that the only heterosexual man on television was Walter Cronkite. Walter Mathos saying that he once knew a woman named Frida Mugugugai Pann, that they called the Orienta, which I was like off-color, but like very funny.

The Honda Lamborghini scene with Meg Ryan and Lisa Kuder, I thought, was. very funny. I thought in a better movie that, like, I think that scene is really good. He comments on multiple people's small penises. The part where she gets called away for the phone call that ultimately says that her dad is in a coma, she answers the Nixon phone in the room with, like, the Haldeman recording is, I thought that was very funny. Salmonella Fingers. I do think this movie avoids the, like, saccharin sentiment that I think a lot of the reviews placed upon it. I agree.

Until the end has that thing. The ending, sure. Yeah. But I do think that there's that moment of, is this all there is after, you know, they watch their father pass? Yes. Did it remind you of, did it remind you of his three daughters at any point? Not really, no. I kept a couple of times, I'm like, his three daughters does this better.

You know what I mean? Yeah. A few times in this movie. Again, they're going for different things. Anything that you had? I think I got through all of my notes. Okay, so here are the Delia Nora Collabs. This is how we're going to do IMDB game.

If you can correctly guess the placement of three of these movies in the ranking of their Rotten Tomato scores, I will be nice to you. Nice sir. Oh, in reverse IMDB game. Okay, all right. To make this actually worth something. Okay.

The films for our listeners are This Is My Life, Mix Nuts, Problematic Fave. Michael, you've got mail hanging up and bewitched. Only one of these is fresh on rotten tomatoes. Okay, so I think my only options are you've got mail, Michael, and this is my life. Just because I don't remember how this is my life was received. So that's a mystery.

And I feel like you've got mail was probably more disrespected than I wanted to be. I think you've got mail got, you know, is better remembered now. now than it maybe was received then. So I'm going to guess Michael at one. You've got mail at two. This is my... Also, you've got mail has the potential of being beefed up by like more current reviews, which is a flaw of rotten tomatoes.

So I'm going to say, Michael, one, you've got mail two. This is my life three. Hanging up for Mixed Nuts 5, Bewitched 6. You only got two. Damn it! So I get to be meaner to you. What is the order? You've Got Mail is the only fresh one.

Oh, okay. I'm only sitting at a 69. Nice. I initially was going to do You've Got Mail first, and then I talked myself out of it. You flip-flopped. You've got Mail and Michael. Because Michael is second at a 38. Whoa.

I didn't realize it was that poorly reviewed. Second at a 38. I thought people overrated that movie. This is my life is a 36. Yeah. So that's third. So I got that. Fourth is bewitched at a 23.

Mixed nuts is a 16% for fifth place, and then hanging up at 13% is less. So I got, This is My Life at 3 and Mixed Nuts at 5, correct? Yes. Okay. So hanging up is the worst. At what percentage? 13. Damn.

That's too harsh. I will say. I think hanging up does not work ultimately, but I think 13% is too much. A 13 in 2000 is not the same as a 13. in 2025, like, movies were regularly rotten. I do feel like that is a product of a backlash, that Nora Ephron backlash, that Ephron sister's backlash that I was talking about, too. I forgot how poorly reviewed Bewitched was.

Oh, yeah. Bewitched today would not be. Bewitched was not only a 23, like, it wouldn't. People would just be kinder to it because people don't have taste. But also that, like, this was coming after the great Nicole Kidman run, so it really allowed people to, like, unload on Nicole Kidman for making a poor choice and that kind of thing. Also, why are we doing a bewitched movie? And the way that that movie, well, that movie's not good.

It's not. It's not. I'm so glad that Julian Julia came around as the last. It really watched Julian Julia again as the other thing. That movie is so good. So much. That's another movie that I think got more harshly received than it needed to. And like, obviously the Merrill parts are better. But like there is no law that says that you have to watch Julian Julia with a scorecard in hand, like making sure that like you tally the good parts of the Merrill parts versus the Amy parts. Like you don't have to watch that movie and assess it on a this or that basis. You can just watch the movie. People are too harsh to the Amy parts. They are too harsh to the Amy parts. Um, there's a one more thing about everything is copy. There's a thing in everything is copy where they're talking about Julian Julia and how for a movie that is based on a Julia child biography and a Julie Powell book about her, you know, website and project and whatever, there's a surprising amount of Nora Ephron in that movie. So much of the marriage between Julia and Paul Child in that movie dovetails with Nora Ephron's marriage to Nick Pilegi. And also, they said, the stuff with Julia with Julia and her sister feels very indebted to Nora and

Delia Ephron and there's the scene um of them standing in the mirror when Julia goes um pretty good they're sort of like assessing themselves pretty good and then she takes a beat and she goes but not great and they and they laugh um and that's a nice thing to think about like yes hanging up was a very, very tough time for Nora and Delia. Afron, yes, according to Delia, they did not speak for a period of time, but they reconciled and, you know, they're incredibly close throughout their lives, and that makes me happy. Same. All right.

Joe, we had a listener request. Our garries are being very diligent. Thank God, because I had forgotten about this during all the accountability for fun things. And what are we doing? How are we closing this episode? Well, every week we usually end our episodes with the IMDB game. But this week, we are bringing back reverse IMDB game. I had forgotten how much fun I found this the first couple times we played it. How this game works is that instead of getting the name of an actor or actress and trying to guess their IMDB known for, we will one at a time and in the order of the clue givers choosing, name the four films from an unnamed actor's known

for. After each film, the guesser can try and guess who the actor is. If they get it right after only one movie is named, they get four points. After two movies, it's three points. After three movies, it's two points. And then finally, after all four movies are revealed, a correct guess is worth one point. We've played this twice before, but we do keep a running score. And currently, Chris is in the lead at six to two. We have not, I don't think, said what these scores are leading up to, and I'm fine with leaving it open-ended for another iteration, and we'll figure it out. Maybe we'll just go on into infinity, but maybe we'll put a finish line and create seasons like we do on our Patreon.

The first to 100, something, something. Right, something, something, all right, so that is reverse IMDB game. All right, so I'm just going to go, we're going to do you first. You're going to quiz me first? Yes, because I, this is, this is maybe the most evil thing I've ever done. But, you know, I'm taking the opportunity of the game. I think this is an IMDB game that would be incredibly difficult, forward and reverse. Okay, so remind us how the clues work.

We go one movie at a time. One movie at a time, you get to choose which movie, which in what the order is, that you parse out these movies. Great. Okay. And then we get points based on how long it takes us. Yes. How many movies it takes to get to the right answer.

Yes. I'm sorry that I'm very much stacking the deck and rudely keeping my lead. But for this person that I have chosen for you, for the reverse IMDB game, the first movie is celebrity. You fucker. Okay. Woody Allen's. Celebrity. The thing with IMDB game, with reverse IMDB game, is your temptation is to guess one of the major stars.

But of course, celebrity isn't going to show up on the known for Charlie's Theron or Leonardo DiCaprio. Excuse me. Well, but I also think the strategy is, you know, any person. you would guess on the first title is basically a shot in the dark. So the strategy is, you know, give yourself as the giver better odds by picking a large ensemble movie. No, you've chosen well. But what I'm saying is from the guesser's perspective is it makes no sense for me to guess Kenneth Branagh, because Celebrity is in no way on Kenneth Branagh's known for.

So I have to find somebody sort of deep in this cast. and like celebrity was famously like just like a whole like you know a whole bunch of of actors and now I can't think of anybody beyond those first three but now I wonder if there are like people who were in Woody Allen movies around this time that would make sense like okay but like it's not going to be like on Bob Balaband's top you know known for something like that if it's somebody like that I bet Bob Balaband's known for goes off I bet that is a lot wild known for. I'd be surprised if we haven't done it at this point. We're probably got. He is in Gosford Park. Yes. Yeah. Um, okay. So I'm going to just take a stab in

the dark and say that one of the actors in Woody Allen's celebrity was Lucas Haas. Lucas Haas is not correct. Okay. Night and Day Night and Day with a K-K-Night and Day, the Tom Cruise, Cameron Diaz movie? Night and Day, the James Mangled Night and Day. Who's the person who they have to, like, rescue in that movie?

Shit. It's someone. it's it's a name someone and it's a younger white man i will give you a hint and say no okay we're not looking at a young white dude okay all right um well also there's over 10 years between those two movies so that would have to be a child that is true in celebrity that is true okay um

Bruce McGill-Migil it is not Bruce McGill your next film is Hulk Angley's Hulk okay Ah, Aangley's Hulk, Eric Banna, Jennifer Connolly, Sam Elliott. That'd be a weird, a weird three-fourths of a Sam Elliott movie.

Just you wait when I drop a stars born on you. I really, really, really dislike you right now. This is the most mean thing I've ever done. But like I said, this would be really hard as a regular IMDB. Yeah, it would. Oh, my God, I'm going to get one point again. I got one point in each of the first previous two, and I'm going to do it again. And if you get three points off of mine, which you very well might, I'm going to be really mad at you.

Oh, God. What rando-ass actor would have these credits? I'm going to say that it's Barry Shabaka-Henley, which it's not. It is not. Okay. Your final film is Jody Hill's Observe and Report. God. I'll give you another hint and say that this person is credited in,

Jody Hills Observe and Report as Mom. Caroline Aaron. No, I'm sorry. She has more, she has better movies than her known for. Who is it? Celia West. Motherfucker! I hate you.

First of all, that's the dumbest known for Celia Weston. What the fuck? Where is Junebug? Where is fucking Dead Man Walking? Are you fucking kidding me? I know. Are you fucking kidding me? that is i'm so sorry but i pulled that up and i was like well this is what i'm doing that i had i had a less difficult one i feel like reverse is always difficult but i had a less difficult option

i almost want to find a harder one than the one that i've that i picked for you would you like to do the less difficult option and we can say that this is the real one let's i let me do the less difficult option. I don't know if I necessarily want to take your charity, but let's do the less difficult option. The less difficult option. First movie, The Disaster Artist. Okay. Another huge cast, but, you know, one I maybe remember more people from. Um, Allison Brie. Not Allison Bree. So that's a great guess. Second movie, Stoker. Okay. Park Chanwooks.

Stoker. Stoker. So you got Kidman, Vossakovska, Matthew Good. Was Jackie Weaver and the disaster artist? Also, would two of Jackie Weavers known for be Stoker and the disaster artist, and Silverline? and Animal Kingdom, maybe, maybe. Or is it Phyllis Somerville? I feel like it's one of those two, and I'm going to say Phyllis Somerville.

It's not Phyllis Somerville. Movie number three. Silver Linings Playbook. It's Jackie Weaver. Fuck, I couldn't. It's Jackie Weaver. You know what? I am going to take two points as opposed to one point.

I'm going to take the two points. It's fine. It's fine. I'm going to take the two points. And as a result, I am not going to give you the fucking hard one that I was going to resort to. What was the, well, don't tell me. I'll play that one after, actually. We'll do that. We'll do more bang for your buck, listeners.

Okay. It's going to sound like I'm giving you a really, really hard one by the first movie, but like, stick to me. Your first movie is The Last Days on Mars. Fun fact, I've never heard of this movie before. Leif Schreiber's on the poster for that. You know more about this movie than I do, which is making me concerned. I think that's Leif Schreiber.

Leif Schreiber. I mean, I'm under no obligation to say yes, but yes. I got it right on the artist. No, it's not Leif Schreiber. Oh, you guessed Leif Schreiber. Oh, okay. No, I thought you were confirming that it's Leif Schreiber on the poster. It is Leif Schreiber on the poster.

It is not Leif Schreiber on the poster. so your second movie is suffragette you knowing what last days on Mars is is already giving me a lot of concern that you might get it into and that is bumming me out

I don't think it's going to be like Anne-Marie Duff because Anne-Marie Duff feels like would be Me picking Anne-Marie Duff would be fucking rad as fuck. That would be the harder option that you decided not to do. Also, if it was Anne-Marie Duff, you wouldn't throw suffragette out as the second movie.

It could be Brendan Gleason. I don't think it's Ben Wishaw. I don't know. Brendan Gleason... you feel like it could be a guy if you're throwing out suffragette, I don't think Helena Bonham Carter is in fucking last days on Mars, whatever the fuck. A male suffragette is a suffrager. No, it's not. I don't know. Very clearly in that movie, there are no male suffragette. No such thing. I mean, Ben Wishaws, I feel like, has at least two bonds.

So I just don't think that that's likely. Who are the other men in that movie? I guess pick your poison and I'll say, Brendan Gleason. Incorrect. All right. Okay, great. So for the first time, you have to get a third movie. Um, your third movie is

Atonement. Hmm. Okay, so not Ben Whishaw. Ah, Maccoy. It's Romola Gary. It's Romola Gary. Yes. Ramalegeri.

Your remaining film was Dirty Dancing Havana Knights. So, No, I felt like that would have been, that's the right one to go last, I feel like, of those ones. Yeah. Well done. Given the other movies. Because it's not just the movie itself, it's the movies in relation to the other movies. Yes, exactly.

The picture coming into focus. All right. So you don't want it to come into focus too soon. Right. So we each get two points. So now the score is eight to four. We're going to try and do these. I think initially we were like, we'll do these every 10 episodes.

So we'll try and do these every ten episodes. I'm going to give you the hard version that I hastily found. Your first one is The Predator. The... Because there's Predators. There's Predator. The Predator... has

Olivia Munn I'll say Olivia Munn Not Olivia Munn That's the only one that's right there Your second one is John Wick Lawrence No it's not going to be Lawrence Fishburn Because he's in some of

I've never seen a John Wick movie I've only seen the first two I will at some point see the other two Plus maybe Bellarina Uh Fine, I'll say Lawrence Fishburn. Not Lawrence Fishburn. Your third movie is the other belittin girl.

Um. God, I, I have his face. I don't have... What was my first movie again? The Predator. The Predator 2018's The Predator And then

Jean Wick And then What was the The Other Boleyn girl Other Boleyn girl So it's probably someone British Wait Wait Gabriel Lebel is in The Predator

What? Yeah. It can't be Can't be Eric Banna. Is it Jamie Bell? It is not Jamie Bell. I don't think Jamie Bell is in

The Other Boulin Girl. All right, so your fourth film, well... Who's her younger? Oh, that's Andrew Garfield. He's not in the other movie. Your fourth credit is Game of Thrones. I know This is why I didn't give it to you Sean Bean

No, it is not Sean Bean I imagine this is an actor Who you've only ever Heard of And maybe never seen in anything It's Alfie Allen Haven't seen in anything Yeah

But you know him See this is the other trick Is like I would be very easy To fuck over In reverse IMDB Well, I mean, the same, too, because I'm just like... We both have our blind spots that would screw us up. Yeah, there are a million actors out there that, like, you could conceivably pull up their known for, and I haven't seen any of them.

We have a fairly gentlemanly agreement to only... To not quite press on those buttons. To only be a bitch a little bit. A little bit. Exactly, exactly right. And I'm glad you did Celia Weston because the world needs to know how unwell her known for is. And someone... That's, I think, the most...

unwell known for i've seen someone needs to go to jail for that that's really really unacceptable it really is yes well joe that is our episode if you want more of this had oscarbuzz you can check out the tumbler at this had oscarpuzz dot tumbler dot com you should also follow us on instagram at this head of oscar buzz and on patreon at patreon dot com slash this had oscar buzz joe where can the listeners find more of you i am on letterboxed and blue sky at joe read read spelt r e i also have a Patreon exclusive podcast on the films of Demi Moore. I also have a Patreon exclusive podcast on the films of Demi Moore called Demi Myself and I that you can find at patreon.com slash Demi Pod. That's D-E-M-I-P-O-D.

And you can find me on Letterbox and Blue Sky at Chris Fee-File. That's F-E-I-L. We'd like to thank Kyle Cummings for our fantastic artwork, Dave and Salis and Gavin Medius for our technical guidance when we need some. And Taylor Cole for our theme music. please remember to rate like and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get those podcasts. Five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So once you're done groping, Edie McClurg, go right at a nice five-star review. That's all for this week. We hope you back next week for more folks.

Thank you.