This Had Oscar Buzz - 383 – Joker: Folie à Deux

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Continuing our Oscar hangover tradition, we’re cracking the seal on the previous Oscar season’s lineup and have we got a doozy of a Class of 2024 title for you! After Joker walked away from the 2019 season with a Golden Lion and an Oscar for Joaquin Phoenix, souring opinions kicked into high gear when follow-up Joker: Folie à … Continue reading "383 – Joker: Folie à Deux"

No, the right house. No, I didn't get that! We want to talk to Mill and heck. I'm from Canada water. Dick poop. The name Arthur Fleck hit Gotham like a hurricane. The trial of the century. They believe Arthur Fleck to be some kind of martyr.

Well, he's not. There's a monster. When I first saw Joker, when I saw you. For once in my life, I didn't feel so alone anymore. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast. The only podcast that's auctioning off its shack in the woods to anyone who will come listen to us tell a sad story. Every week on This Had Oscar Buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie that once upon a time had lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong.

The Oscar hopes died, and we are here to perform the autopsy. I'm your host, Joe Reed. I'm here, as always, with my jester flop in the clown square. Chris Fyle. apparently the clown square is the upper west side that is treated like a plot twist that Harley Quinn or Harley Lee Quinzel I believe you mean yeah yeah definitely a very upper west side name Lee Quinzel yeah

yeah her mom's her mom's a shrink yep yep the fact that it's meant as a shock that she's lying about her background to the Joker that they come from the same, you know, similar upbringings. It's like, no, this is, this is very theater kid energy that she brings. Like, of course she's a, she's a Liguardia student. Yeah, she's a Liguardia kid. I mean, that's giving that character credit for being a character to, you know what I mean?

It's just like, this is barely a character. This is like a concept that has pre-existing comic book roots so we can sort of graft this concept onto Dr. Harleen Quinzel, and it's just like, okay. But like, there's not really anything there. As with most of this movie, there's not anything there. It's, and seemingly intentionally so. And, oh. Listener, we're cracking the seal on the class of 2024 with what other movie?

Yes. Well, yeah, we had, Joker Folly a Pooh. Has anyone ever made that? Choke. Yes, you, eight billion times in the year 2024. Folly a pooh-poo. Pee-a-poo, Joker 2. As you are listening to this, the Oscars have just happened. Clearly, either one battle after another or sinners has just one best picture, as we always expected it would. And nothing, once again, nothing weird happened. Everybody's happy with

It was all so normal. Everything was all very normal. Interesting and yet normal. Definitely. Everything went over normally. We have done this bit, I think, every time that we've done an actually class of first-time movie. And every time without fail, people were like, they knew the slap was going to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

No, I think we just expect the unexpected at chaos. Wouldn't it be funny if the unexpected and chaos at this point was like Ethan Hawke wins best actor? A chairperson from a ballet company will walk up and slap Timothy Sholomey in the face. Maybe right here right now, I'm saying that Fwon will Fwynn. I can't do Folly Apu and Fwon in the same episode. I feel like you need to pick and choose your nicknames that only you use. but all the time. Joker, Fuany adieu.

No, God. I am operating on very little sleep and a toothache right now, and I spent so much of last night ill-advisedly. What's the opposite? It's not the opposite of doom scrolling. Dumb scrolling? Scrolling through like front-facing video after front-facing video of people scolding Timothy Sholomei for being,

to ballet and opera people and literally completely missing the point. Completely missing the point. Well, I mean, we both are of the mind that, like, yes, what he said was dumb and short-sighted, but also people are doing too much. People are extrapolating too much. I don't even think what he said was dumb. I think he worded it somewhat immaturely, but, like, if anybody would have, like, gone to the trouble to actually look at the 30 seconds of that clip before the part that

got clipped with an agenda, which is he's very clearly talking about not wanting, I don't want to work in ballet or opera industries that have to essentially beg to stay viable. You know what I mean? Like it's within the context of you don't want movie theaters and movies as a theatrical, accessible, popular, like, medium to go extinct. That was the conversation they were having leading up to that. It had nothing to do with all I'm seeing all of these people being like, he thinks he can do ballet and he just chooses not to because he wants to be a movie star. I literally. At this point, this conversation's going to be.

It's going to be so old. But I don't care. I put in the hours last night and nobody was awake for me. to text angrily about it, so I'm doing it right now. The tell for all of them, too, is the ones, any one of them that referenced Kylie Jenner, I'm like, okay, well, like,

this is what this is about. You, you know, you don't like that he's, you know, whatever, become one of the side of Hollywood that you don't like, the Kardashian side or whatever. Meanwhile, Simone is too busy

in her slow shift towards Connor's story, slash taking all of these goddamn vacation. She's letting this happen. Much respect to Simone, but Simone is that gay guy, how you're like, how are you always on vacation? How are you always on vacation? Where do you get your money? No, she's absolutely, this is happening on her watch, and I feel like the fan base has no center anymore. They have nobody to, you know, look towards for true insanity. And so...

Send help, but about Simone. Yes. Yes. Yes. She could have started... I mean, Rachel McCannum's perfect. Joe just is fresh off of seeing Send Help, so I just want to talk to him about Send Help. I am fresh off of seeing The Bride. Like, I got home. Probably more of a fitting companion piece to Folli Adu. Honestly, the way to lose any respect you might have for Joker Folly Adieu is to watch the bride in the same day. The bride.

Oh, that's interesting. I would say, not good. doesn't necessarily mean objectively bad to say that it's not good. I will defend this movie probably for the rest of my life. I knew this was going to happen. I knew this was going to happen. People should be allowed to make these, you know, very unmoored, untethered things that are about everything and nothing. I knew it. Maggie Mado Wachowski's. That's also a Lerman. That's also a term.

This is Maggie's Cloud Atlas? Yes, yes. This is a Thelman-Louise jukebox musical for Evanescence. Finding out that her character is Mary Shelley really threw me for a loop. I haven't seen it yet, but like... Okay, everybody's dogging on Jesse Buckley. As of the listeners listening to this, we can assume Oscar winner Jesse Buckley. Well, unless this cat controversy fell to her.

This is where I get mad is because people think that getting on... online can prevent people, getting mad online prevents people from winning Oscars, and it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't. If something doesn't happen, if Timmy doesn't win the Oscar, it's not because people got mad at him online. It's because people stopped caring about that movie the second the nominations happened for that movie. I'll tell you what, though. So many people on these dumb videos and these dumb takes were like, man, one of the worst Oscar campaigns in recent memory. I can't believe he, like, totally deep-sixies chances, which, again, if he doesn't win best actor, if, you know, from the future, if forecasting into the future, he doesn't win the best actor,

no campaign would have helped him. Like, ultimately, if Michael B. Jordan, if Wagner wins, it's a different story. If Michael B. Jordan has won the Oscar, and by the time you're listening to this, it's because Michael B. Jordan was always going to win the Oscar because he was the lead actor and sinners, the movie that everybody loves. You know what I mean? So it's just like, no, this idea that like, oh, him behaving in a way that I find objectionable is the reason why he lost. It's so, it's that like weird narcissism that people have is just like, well, this thing that happened, it happened because everybody agrees with me that like, this is, you know, this is the case. And it's just, I never expected.

I never expected that, like, the truth of the matter was that we were surrounded by quite so many people who really are just low comprehension folks. Like, absolutely no brain cells, cannot put together a thought, cannot have, like, proper cognition and can't, like, make their, make thoughts work. It's crazy. And decide that they have to make not. one but two Joker movies. Well, and or countless front-facing videos and upload them at a near constant

like pace. But yes, also make two... I thank you for your attempt to draw us back into the topic, but I am in the mood to rage against people. What I said, is that not true? Is that not true that he made two very brain-dead Joker movies?

Well... There is an element to Folly Adieu that I'm sure we'll get into that, like, Like, in anyone else's hands, I would respect the fuck you that this movie is trying to say. But I think when you go and you make Joker and that movie is what it is, you don't get to say the fuck you that Folly Adieu is trying to say. Well, that I agree with you about. But I think in general, I maybe come at it the opposite way. I don't respect the fuck you that he's trying to do into Folli Adieu.

And I think it's genuinely, it's one of those like, well, then why am I watching your movie? I think for as much as... This is a very audience antagonistic movie. For as much as I did not at all care for, 2019's Joker, I do think there was a canniness to the way that Todd Phillips went about making that movie. Like, he saw something out there in the culture that was going to hit a nerve. and he hit the correct nerve and cast that movie well, you know what I mean? Like, ultimately, Joaquin Phoenix ends up being the right person for that role.

And again, I could not stand that movie, but clearly it hit a nerve enough to, you know, 11 Oscar nominations and two wins and one of the most talked about movies. Oscar nomination leader at that. How many should leader? Yes, it won the Golden Lion at Venice that year. Thank you, Lucretia. Yes. And so, like, clearly that movie, you know, hit a nerve.

And I can't ultimately, like, ultimately, I do have to, like, I guess, have to tip my hat begrudgingly to Todd Phillips. I think when it comes to Folly A Do, I agree with you that, like, this isn't your fuck you to give now. Like, who are you saying, who is fuck you, too? Like, the people who made your movie hit, the people who you, like, catered to in your first movie? DC fanboys? Like, who are we? W.B. Like, James Gunn?

Like, who exactly? Are you so angry about, like, or is it just the idea that he didn't want to make, by all reports, Todd Phillips wanted to make Joker as a one-off movie and did not want to make a sequel to it? And ultimately, got talked into it. The story is, Waukeen Phoenix had an idea and wanted to make a second one. But, like, of course, it was. was Warner Brothers back to, you know, truck full of money up to his front porch. And ultimately,

Todd Phillips agreed to make the movie and then immediately decided to be resentful about that throughout the process of creating this movie. Right, because this, this movie at least has the courage of its convictions. You know, it doesn't seem like the kind of movie that's made for anyone else but its makers and their intentions. You know, it doesn't seem like, you know, a lot of comic sequels and such can look like it's too many cooks in the kitchen, you know, in terms of ideas. This is at least a singular point of view and idea that it, like, definitely falls on Todd Phillips that, like, no, you made the movie you wanted to make. And you said with it what you wanted. to say.

Perhaps the thing that annoys me most about this movie, though, is that the ways in which he decides to, like, flip off the different factions of the, you know, the audience that made that first movie such a big hit. And, like, again, that's a bill. That was a billion dollar hit worldwide. A billion dollars. And I would also just say the worldview that the first movie came from, you know? It's not just the audience, but, like, it's.

Phillips's own perspective. The original Joker to me is just a noxious. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like hateful movie. Yes. And so it's like he's turned, he like. And this sequel isn't is also noxious and hateful in its own way.

In a different direction. But like it's, to me it's so immature and sort of like dunderheaded in the way it's going to be like, you know what's going to piss off comic book fans? let's cast Lady Gaga. You know what these guys are going to hate? A musical. And the thing is, if you had any,

if you had any balls, if you had any kind of, you know, ambition, or if you gave a shit about it in any way, you could make a movie, you could make a good musical out of, you could make a good musical sequel,

starting Lady Gaga, or at least you could make one that, like, really goes for it because I do push back against the idea that Folli Adu is going for it because the musical that it delivers is so limp and lackluster

and like anti-entertainment like it's sort of like I think it The pointed use of that's entertainment as an irony as it been like you know that's entertainment as Lady Gaga drones on for the 16th straight song and it's just like I think he's so

wanted to present the kind of musical that would be guaranteed to please nobody, that like, have the courage of your convictions, do a sequel that is a musical that does Star Lady Gaga as Harley Quinn, and dare these people to not like it. Like, make it good and dare these people to not like it. He gave everybody in the world a permission slip to hate this movie, and then he goes, well, see, like, you can't please these guys.

You can't please these fan boys. These fan boys are going to hate whatever. and it's just like, it's such a pussy move. Like, I hate using that term in this way because I sound like such a fucking, like, or it's for a first engineered ego trip or something. Yeah, yes. I mean, I kind of disagree with some of what you're saying in regards to the genre-eanness of. Yeah, I think we have a little bit of a disagreement here, but like, that's fine.

I think this is made by someone who does love musicals, but I think fundamentally, doesn't understand how they work. Maybe. Because also a lot of the, especially once you're in like the second hour of this movie and still nothing has happened. A lot of these like fantasy sequence musical numbers become so repetitive and serving less and less of a purpose as the movie goes on. The thing that I wrote down, I said this is a movie length slowed down pop song from a

movie trailer. It's like that. It's that instinct to me. It's just like the idea of like, we're going to take this song that's all peppy and poppy, and we are going to grind it down to like the slowest possible version because it's like, because everybody's logy and on, you know, whatever mental health medication and everybody's depressed and sad and it's dark and it's moody. And so every single musical number is going to have this sort of like slow.

down for maximum ambiance thing. And it's all done. And it's so samey in that way. Like have one number like that, sure. But like to have your whole movie, to have so many different songs, be Lady Gaga being like, When You're Smiling.

And it's just like... To the point where she goes and makes her own album of all these same songs where she actually gets to sing them to be like, I actually sound good guys. Just so you know, I can sing the shit out of these songs, just so you know.

What I hate, about this movie most aside from what a hypocrite Todd Phillips seems like in what he's trying to say in this movie how hypocritical this movie is I hate how boring it is this movie is so boring

absolutely nothing happens in this two and a half hour movie and then the one thing that is supposed to like jolt you or whatever is this implied sexual assault and they're like, fuck you for that too. You know what I mean? Just like, that's so immature to me. That's so just like, do you, do you have like toddler brain? Like, do you have

like middle school brain? Like, that's the thing. Tom Phillips is an edge lord. Like, yeah, which is such a tedious, you know, worldview for me. Um, so. We'll get it into all of this and more, uh, as we continue, but if you're so happy we're doing this movie. If you're relatively new to this head Oscar buzz, the idea that we've always said is we don't want to cover very recent movies. We don't want to cover movies that, like, just got snubbed by the Oscars. I think, you know, we don't want to cover Wicked for Good the week after the Oscar nominations happen. Our idea is that we want to have... We are a nostalgia show.

We are a hindsight show. We're a hindsight show. There's context that's available with... the passage of time. And so we set a minimum distance of one year from the day after the next, or whatever, the day after the following year's Oscars is when the previous years, snubbed movies become eligible to be on the show. So the Joker, Follyadu is a 24 movie. The day after the 2025 Oscars is when the class of 2024 is next. now the doors are open. And so we have in the last few years taken to breaking the seal on that

with a particularly high-profile Oscar snub. And this movie had quite a bit of Oscar anticipation to it. I think partially because so many people were resistant to Joker as an Oscar movie until it like became all too clear and undeniable that that's what was going to happen. And so I think people were like, well, they love Joker, I guess. So like no accounting for taste, which is what I did and put it in, you know, in my predictions and whatnot. Certainly Lady Gaga, who had just, you know, was a best actress nominee for a Star is Born and then had just gotten snubbed for House of Gucci in a way that even people who didn't like that movie were like, I can't believe Lady Gaga didn't get nominated. Like people were sort of cynically kind of expecting it to

happen. So there was a lot of like. on this movie. There was a lot of juice. And I don't... I could be wrong. Correct me if you think I'm wrong. I don't think there was a ton of advance bad buzz on this movie, was there? Because nobody had seen it. They had kept it really, really under wraps. And they took it

to Venice and Alberto Barbera, who is the head of the festival, spoke incredibly highly of this movie and walking to Phoenix's performance. Likely thing for him to do. likely think for him to do because the first one won the Golden Lion. So, and of course, this movie... Who was...

Oh, you said Lucretia Martel was the president of that jury. Yes. And who was the president of this jury? Joker Folliadeu's jury? Do you remember? I do. Uh, no, I don't. Why would I...

Isabella O'Berupare? Okay, yeah. Cannot believe. What is the... What do I hate most about Joker Folliadu? The fact that Isabel Uper was forced to watch it. That's what I hate most. This, this Fennis jury was not.

fucking around. Isabella Pair is president. James Gray, Andrew High, Agnesca Holland, Claibor Mendonka-Fillo. How do we pronounce the... Mendonsofio.

Mendonsofio. Thank you. I have horrid pronunciation of Portuguese, so I'm very, very sorry. Mendonsofio. And then who else? Zanzig, I think, was on that jury.

It was, but, like, there were some, like, heavy hitters on this thing, which... is so funny that all of these people had to sit in a room together and watch Joker Ralea do, like, among other things. But, yeah, yeah. Interesting Venice lineup this movie. It's a really interesting Venice lineup, actually.

Like, there's some really good stuff. The room next door is the Golden Lion winner. El Moldivar is the room next door. I'll be very excited to talk about whenever we do that episode. Al Mottivar is the room next door. and Jim Jarmish's father, brother, father, mother, sister brother, is there something to be gleaned from those two movies

that, like, their only blip in Oscar season both of those years were winning Golden Lion. Like, ultimately, I think the room next door is a much, much better movie than father, mother, sister, brother. But I think both of them essentially have the same level of impact on the movie year in general, right? In terms of where they showed up for, I would understand.

I mean, definitely more people saw the Amadova art than saw the drummish. Sure. And talked about it. I think generally people were a little disappointed by Room Next Door. I definitely count myself among its biggest fans. With it being his first English language movie and all of that, there was hype for it. and those actresses. Well, sure, yes.

And I thought both of those actresses were really good. But I just wonder if, is there something to be gleaned from the direction that the Venice Film Festival is going to? Because the year before Room Next Door was Poor Things, which was essentially a hypercharged springboard of that movie into the Oscar race. right, that movie. And then, and obviously the Venice Film Festival has no obligation to be a launching pad for anything, any movies, Oscar chances. And like, looking at Venice purely through an Oscar lens is doing a disservice. But there is a similarity to me to Room Next Door and Father, Mother, Sister, Brother.

In they are these filmmakers who have succeeded in the past in going against the the Hollywood grain, and these two movies are them kind of leaning into the Hollywood thing more than they ever have. Not more than they ever have necessarily for Jarmuch. I mean, Father, Mother, Sister Brother has stars in it. Blanchet, Driver, like, yeah. But, I mean, Jarmouche has worked with famous people before. And with both of those actors before, so yes. I believe he's worked with Blanchet before.

I mean, I kind of see them. Yes. in you know kind of placing Venice in this place where you know the top prize is going to

directors with long careers who have never won that prize before I mean Charmouche I don't believe had competed at Venice ever before he was always the Cannes guy and never won big at Cannes he got the Grand Prix

but not the Palm ever and then of course this movie was rejected by Cannes yeah that's interesting But anyway, yeah, an interesting lineup of movies. You mentioned, well, talk about what else was on display. I mean, the two big Oscar movies, again, not to just windle it down to Oscar conversation.

That's what we're here for, though. We are that show. I'm still here, and the Brutalist are the biggest, you know, that make the whole leap to... the Oscar stage, though, you can argue, I'm still here, didn't necessarily register that much at Venice. And that was a movie that was constantly gaining steam. I'm still here had a very organic, like, little bit here. So I'm still here had been at Cannes, though, right, that year? No.

It wasn't. It was in the Venice competition. Oh, I mean, I know it was the Venice competition. I believe it wasn't ready for Cannes. Okay. But so, yeah, I'm still here was definitely one of those. like pick up a little bit of steam, pick up a little bit of steam, pick up a little bit of steam. And then all of a sudden, enough people had seen it and were just like, this movie is really good, right?

Like, I know I was like one of that movie's biggest fans. But I think that was one of those, which is, I like when movies have that kind of organic sort of thing. Blue Moon was kind of like that. Where all of a sudden people were like, wait a second, like this performance is like really great. We really love it. And the rest of Venice is kind of. of international cinema, of course, but as far as Oscar is concerned, movies that were seen more as disappointments in that regard. You have Baby Girl, you have Maria, which got a cinematography nomination, but not an acting nomination.

And then queer as well. Another movie I'll be very excited to do an episode on. Queer, The Order, Justin Critsles, The Order was there. Yeah. But launching The Brutelist is no... you know, nothing to be sloft off either, you know what I mean? Like, that is, that's a pretty big,

you know, from zero to best picture contender, kind of a thing. Because, like, I don't know that too many people had that movie in their sights as a best picture contender before that festival. So, I like when that happens, too. Anyway,

Joker Folly Adieu, we're breaking the seal on the Oscar Buzz movies of 2024 expect a handful of other ones throughout the year and I think this is a really

interesting year for this had Oscar Buzz eligible movies Obviously you mentioned a couple of them Yeah baby girl will be interesting for saving that for reasons that I think Longtime Gary's will know why

Speaking of the Venice Film Festival Challengers, which was going to open the previous Venice. The previous Venice, and then the strikes happened. The what-if path for challengers is a really interesting one for me, because I always wonder what that launching pad would have done for that movie as opposed to a very well-received spring release, which is what it got. I also, as a selfish tennis fan, really, really, really lament the fact that that year's U.S. Open would have been lit as hell with those three actors and Luca Guadena, like,

doing, well, maybe not Luca, because Luca was very queer, queer focused during, no way, because that would have been the next year. So Luca would have been able to actually support challengers that year. So do you think in the, in the version of events where the strikes don't happen and Challenger's is a 2023 movie. Is my Joshie an Oscar

nomination? Oh, that's interesting. So, 2020... Is he an Oscar nominee, I mean? 2023 supporting actor nominees were Downey Jr. Help me out. Ruffalo for poor things. Please.

Yeah. I'm going to try and get it before you get to it, but it chime as soon as you have them. De Niro for Killers of the Flower Moon. See, this is what we mean when we say that for us and we're like us, the recent past is harder than like, pick a year

in 1990s or in the 1970s. Always harder than... Yes. Okay, I pulled up the list. There is one performance we very explicitly have talked about recently. and another one in a best picture nominee. So there's one that's not in a best picture nominee. They're both best picture nominees.

All of the supporting actor lineup. Okay. So Oppenheimer, poor things. Killers of the Flower Moon. Oh, Judd Hirsch in... Wrong year. No, you're right, that's 20202. Okay.

Oppenheimer, poor things. Anatomy of the Fall, Nothing. Zone of Interest, nothing. Holdovers, no. Did I already say Killers of the Flower Moon? No. Oppenheimer, Poor Things, Killers of the Flower Moon. Zone of Interest, Holdovers, Anatomy of Fall.

So that's six. Do you know? What am I missing? You're missing a huge movie that we talked about recently, not on the main feed. Maestro doesn't get a supporting actor nomination, but that's that year, right? And that's the best picture nominee. For the baton, yes. The baton was nominated.

For the fucking balloon. For raining it in. For raining it in. Okay. Three more. Two more. Both of these movies won Oscars,

but obviously not Best Picture, but they were Best Picture nominated. No one from, obviously Rustin wasn't Best Picture nominated. Nyad wasn't Best Picture nominated. I'm trying to think of like, Oh, Barbie, of course, Barb and Heimer, Gosling. And the last movie, it was a TIF premiere.

Any other acting nominees from this? Yes. Actor? There's also a lead actor nominated from this movie. Oh, God, actor-supporting actor. Oh, oh, Sterling, Sterling K. Brown. Sterling K. Brown. Yes.

Okay. So how does Josh O'Connor do in this particular? field. That's tough. That's interesting. I think he probably doesn't get nominated. I think he probably doesn't. But it's an interesting, it's an interesting conundrum.

It's an interesting question. That's for sure. It would have been just fun to see them in that conversation. And again, like, part of that falls roundtables, and, you know, as I say, like, you know, doing U.S. OpenS. OpenS.-SponCon and all that sort of stuff. I would have been into it. The category that I up until pretty late, I'm pretty sure it was shortlisted, but I forget that I was like, guys, Joker 2 could still get a nomination is makeup and hairstyling. Oh, sure.

Yeah. Poor Things won. Also nominated Golda. Oh, God, that's right. I had to watch Golda. Golda. Yeah. Maestro, Oppenheimer, and Society of the Snow.

Another movie I watched. Yes. Not a bad movie, Society of the Snow. Fine. Made me want to watch Alive. Okay. So, yeah, I, if the thing about Folly Aadu as a movie that could have still survived, into getting a craft nomination issue is

the narrative of failure on it was so bold-faced. Like, this was not just a movie that, like, didn't hit. This wasn't just a movie that, like, underwhelmed. This was a big old capital F failure. It flopped. It opened number one, but with only $37 million, and it costs... You could, like, feel on the wind

the air leaving all movie theaters nationwide of just like people more on mass deciding not to go that weekend. This movie cost $200 million plus whatever

maybe another $100 million to market perhaps and it absolutely cratered and like... It got a D cinema score It got a D cinema score. What we really did

need to stress is that's not an F cinema score, but even a D cinema score for a major studio movie is very, very difficult to get. So like, the movie was hostile towards the audience, and the audience was pretty hostile right back. It made $58 million, all told, domestic. So could not even crack 60. It made a hundred... Is that less than Joker made in its opening weekend? Well, hold on a second. Let's see. This would have been a October of 2019. Was that also an October movie? Let's see.

Sure was. 2019, Joker in its opening weekend made $96 million. So by quite a bit. By quite a margin. And, yeah, Joker made more in its second weekend than Folly Adu made it in its first weekend. In its entire run. Oh, yeah, right, in its entire run. Thank you.

Yes, Joker, 2019, made. more in its, because its second weekend was erstwhile Columbus Day weekend, Indigenous People's Day weekend. So it was a three-day weekend, and it made over that three-day weekend $64 million. And so all of Folly I do domestically made 58. That's how bad. That's how bad. So, yeah. All right.

So, Chris, we're going to get into the film itself. I'm going to have you do a 60-second plot description to get us started. but before that, would you like to let our listeners know what our Patreon is all about? So, listener, we have a Patreon. We call it This Had Oscar Buzz Turbulent Brilliance. For $5 a month, what are you going to get? You're going to get more of the show you already love. You'll get two bonus episodes every month.

First comes on the first Friday. This is an episode we call Exceptions. These are movies that fit that This Had Oscar Buzz Roos. rubric of great expectation and disappointing results, but they managed to get some Oscar nominations. Earlier this month, we talked about the aforementioned Ryan Gosling and the motion picture, Drive. Best sound editing nominee, Drive. Bebeep, Drive.

We love the exceptions episodes we get to do. It's something that since the very beginning of our show, listeners, we're asking us to do, and we have it over there on the Patreon. What type of movies are you going to get? You're going to get great masterpiece movies like Mulholland Drive, artificial intelligence when Harry met Sally. You're going to get fun popcorn movies like my best friend's wedding and knives out. You're going to get some not so great movies like the lovely bones and nine.

And what other not so great movies have been? Hitchcock. Hitchcock. Madonna's W.E. All going on three years worth of exceptions episodes, I think $5 is a steal just for that, but you still got that second bonus episode. On the third Friday of the month, we do episodes we call excursions. These are basically deep dives into things we love obsessing about on the show, like EW Fall Movie Previews, Hollywood Reporter Actress Roundtables,

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slash This Had Oscar Buzz. Woo-hoo. All right. Chris, momentarily, I am going to ask you to take 60 seconds and describe the plot, such as it is, of Joker Folly Adieu, directed by Todd Phillips, written by Scott Silver and Todd Phillips, starring Joaquin Phoenix, Stephanie, Lady Gaga, Germanada, Catherine Keener, Brendan Gleason, Harry Lottie, Zazi Beats, Steve Coogan, Jacob Loughlin, neckbone himself from mud, Jacob Lofland, Ken Leung, Lee Gill, and Connor Story as joke-telling prisoner was with crazy-looking mouth, Connor Story, premiered on September 4th, 2024 at the Venice Film Festival, and then October 4th, 2024 to wide release and aforementioned box office anonymity was distributed by Lionsgate Films.

The other movies in the box office top 10 when Joker premiered The Wild Robot, was in its second weekend, pulling in 18 million in its second weekend. Beetlejuice Beetlejuice had just, like, owned September. So this was in its fifth week, still in the top five. Transformers won, the animated film that what I'm given to understand was pretty good, was in fourth place, and then the American remake of Speak No Evil, which I still have not seen, though I eventually did see the original. And that was grim.

Um, that is a, that is a grim horror movie right there. Speak no evil. So, Chris. Yeah. If you're ready, I've got my stopwatch. And if you want to, 60 seconds. Describe the plot in this movie that nothing fucking happens. Nothing fucking happens.

Ready? And begin. All right. Arthur Fleck, also known as the Joker, is in jail on trial for multiple murders. While in Arkham Asylum, he, uh, happens to pass the Glee Club rehearsal. and meets Harley Quinn, though. That's not her name, but she's Harley Quinn. They kind of fall in love quickly.

She kind of stands him, but it's also just like a relationship, whatever. Meanwhile, there's also going to be fantasy sequence songs happening through all of this. She starts a fire during movie night, and they kind of break out but kind of don't. She's out of jail. Meanwhile, his trial is starting, and Catherine Keener, his lawyer, wants to basically say he's a split personality. The Joker is a person, and Arthur Fleming. is a person and the Joker committed those crimes, but not Arthur Fleck. Anyway, the trial doesn't go well. He eventually fires his lawyer and wants to be his own, give his own defense. Meanwhile,

Harley Quinn, he realizes she was not who she said she was and is actually like, poor little rich girl. And he basically, in his final statement, says, no, I did all of this. I am taking responsibility for my murders. And she walks out on him. And he, he, there's a bomb that goes off and he breaks free and they meet up and she's like, no, you, I can't be with you because you're not the Joker. I stand the Joker, whatever. He ends up back in jail where he is promptly murdered by who we are led to believe is the Heath Ledger Joker somehow creating a useless bridge between this movie and the Dark Night the End. Okay, I'm going to talk about that for 29 seconds over, pretty good. I'm going to talk about that first.

Can't believe a movie that nothing happens. I still went over 60 seconds. That's fine. So the thing at the end with... Connor Story. Connor Story, who I did not realize that that's who it was until I watched this scene, maybe like three months ago, two months ago, something like that. Current heated rivalry, superstar, Connor Story, who also, if you've...

It's perfect that this is who he got cast as, because that boy has the craziest-looking mouth, and I say that complementarily. Like his mouth just looks naturally. I know that mouth goes crazy. I mean, kind of, yeah. Beautiful, gorgeous face. But like a real, like, a smile that goes from like ear to ear. So he in a sort of patented, nihilistic twist ending, right?

This guy who has only been, like, lurking at the back of like a couple of, like, a couple of, of prison yard scenes. Otherwise is not a character in this movie at all. Approaches Arthur, says, you want to hear a joke, tells a joke whose punchline is, stabby, stabby, stabby, stabby in the gut with a shiv. And Arthur dies for nothing, no reason. There's no real, I guess you could probably extrapolate this idea that Joker had symbolized something to the disaffected. in cell

like, you know, fords or whatever. The heightened publicization of these nihilistic violent men Proud boy coded. Only propagates more nihilistic violent men, etc. So the idea by the end of the movie

is that Joker has abdicated his position as a leader of these people and so now they've all turned on him. And this is, whatever. You can draw that motivation onto this guy. Or you can just be like, this guy was crazy,

nothing matters. He just stabbed Arthur, and that's the end. And then in, like, the background, you see him carving the, like, whatever, the, the Black Dahlia. The Black Dahlia smile onto his face. And so, I'm going to maybe disagree a little bit with what you say. I don't think Todd Phillips had any interest in actually building a bridge to the Nolan movies. I think, I truly think it was Edge Lord Todd Phillips being like,

wouldn't it be stupid and funny and whatever? I think accidentally he ends up really giving a fuck you to the Nolan movies in a way that like ultimately doesn't matter. This movie is not a prequel to the Dark Night, right? This movie, like, Connor Story's character is not Heath Ledger's character. These movies are essentially separate.

But I think what it does, because there was so much made of... One of the cooler things about the Dark Night is the fact that Heath Ledger's Joker tells a different story to all these different people about how he got his scars. Because the point is, it doesn't matter how he got his scars. The fact is that he's this, like, you know,

agent of chaos now. And there is no psychological... There is no satisfying psychological reason that made him this way, which is the thing that, like, Folly Adieu actually doesn't do very well, because Folly Adu does make the claim that, like, Arthur Fleck was abused as a child and whatever, whatever. Anyway. Right, right, right. So I think there's a little bit of a middle finger from this movie to the Nolan movies of just like, ah, this thing that was your great big mystery, we're just going to solve it. You know, this is what happened. And obviously,

it's not canon, and I'm using dorky scare quotes there. No, if you think Fulia do is canon. You are... It's not. You are on an island. You are one of one. But I don't think it matters because to me it's just like, it's Todd Phillips being like, hey, that thing that was cool about this other movie that everybody liked. Let's make it not cool. Fuck you. You know what I mean? And I don't think it's specifically trying to like get Nolan's goat. I don't think no one's never done anything.

I do think it is trying to connect those narratives to. I think it's trying to slip off the lens. I think he's trying to, I think he hates the people who like. I think he hates the fact that the comic book fans flocked to the first Joker and were like, this is Joker. Because Todd Phillips kept trying to be like, this isn't the Joker. This is Arthur Fleck. This is using, you know, Joker imagery and whatever because he was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He was trying to make a movie that, like, used the Joker name and used a lot of the Joker imagery. but

all over thing off Martin Scorsese Right, he was doing the king of comedy and taxi driver misunderstanding those movies Yeah, yeah, yeah. So,

yes, I do think it was a fuck you. I do think he was Yes, he was trying to say, I don't know, I think the nihilism of that moment overrides any kind of like,

oh, I'm building a bridge to this, you know, this character. But I ultimately think We disagree slightly on what it is I do think that it is like Studio Note fan service Oh you think it's studio note

Maybe not studio note but like there might have been a studio note Of try to connect this to the larger universe Interesting Because like that's what all like superhero movies were progressively doing and doing and doing But I I think ultimately the like connection to the larger universe in these movies sucks.

The Bruce Wayne stuff in the first Joker movie sucks. And then, you know, you have Harry Lottie playing Harvey Dent to what end? Like, you don't even need him to be Harvey Dent because like there is no purpose in that character being Harvey Dent or being a significant character at all. Here's how to what end it is. The entire legal argument that is being made, that is being disputed in these courtroom scenes are, is Joker a split personality from Arthur Fleck?

Or is that bullshit and he's just one guy? Who's the one person who ends up being two fucking personalities in this room? It's two-face-ass Harvey Dent. And yet the movie never like even winks to that, even nods to that because I think ultimately Todd Phillips neither knows nor cares about that. Now, would that have made the movie... Well, but canonically, Harvey Dent was a good guy before he became Two-Face, I thought. Right.

But once that happens, then he's... Like, the whole point of the character is, you could get the nice guy or you could get the mean guy. You know what I mean? Like, that kind of a thing. I don't think... I just think it's... It's not a better movie if Todd Phillips, you know, gives a little bit of a sense if he knows that... That's the case and has Harry Lottie sort of...

of say something or wink to the fact that this is going to happen. Yeah, because it's very clear that this version of this universe is not going to extend into another movie. But it's just yet another example to me of Todd Phillips

just having, playing in a sandbox, he doesn't really have a ton of interest in playing in. If you want to just make the king of comedy, just do the fucking king of comedy. The fact that like it then glommed on to to joke, you know, Joker as a name as a title.

Like, yeah, that's how you got to a billion dollars, dude. Like, yeah. So either, I don't know, I don't know, I just find the whole attitude. And some people might have found the attitude, you know, more just like, ah, fuck these studios. Fuck the, you know, comic book industrial complex or whatever. And I just think it's like baby shit. I just think it's like, I think he's, I think Phillips. being a nihilistic little baby about all of this.

Can we talk about the genre? I think this movie gets more wrong than musicals. Oh, go on. Do go on. Courtroom drama. This movie is basically a courtroom drama that sucks. It sucks. It's such a bad courtroom drama.

Yes. Not only does it fundamentally misunderstand how musicals and musical numbers work, but it fundamentally understands, misunderstands how courtroom dramas work. Yes. Because all of the courtroom scenes are really. repetitive, boring, and nothing happens. Yes. Yes.

There should have been objecting like crazy. There are nothing but monologues. Those monologues have an arc that take us somewhere, or that are at least, you know, fun popcorn to watch. Yeah. All of the courtroom stuff in this movie sucks. It also, it doesn't just suck in terms of, you know, the legalese and, you know, the plot functions of courtroom scene out of the court.

courtroom scene out of the heart. The movie doesn't know how to differentiate what's happening. Where are we in the story arc? But that it also uses those courtroom scenes to constantly call back to the original Joker, including these original characters who we do not care about. Yes. Oh, I know. There's no reason Zazi Beats has to be in this movie.

Absolutely not. I thought to the point where I hadn't misremembered that she wasn't in the movie at all. I can completely forgotten that she shows up for that one completely useless scene. Poor Catherine Keener, I think, is trying her best in this. Like, I think she's trying very hard to... Get that check, girl. I mean, yes, but I think she's trying very hard to take all of these things seriously and to try and deliver a real character who is, you know, who wants to do the right thing,

who is frustrated, who genuinely feels like Arthur needs, you know, psychiatric help and that that will help him. ultimately this is not a movie that cares to answer the question of whether Arthur is, you know, whether psychiatric help would help Arthur, you know what I mean? Like it's to what degree he is mentally ill versus, like, obviously he's mentally ill. But like the movie doesn't really care to investigate this. Right. It does not care to investigate this in any reason. way. It does not care to investigate the degree to which Lee is manipulating him or is sort of

off her rocker herself. Obviously, these are things that would exist in, you know, shades of gray. But the movie ultimately is just like, throws up his hands and it's just like, eh, we don't know. But wouldn't it be weird and fucked up to have, like, you know, a musical number at this part? And so then they throw it in and it's utterly boring. utterly like grinds the movie to a halt. Serves the same exact purpose as the same, as the three songs before it, you know? I genuinely feel like if you let Lady Gaga go off in this movie, I would have at least had to be like, you know what, like respect a little bit, you know?

She's in a lot less than you expect her to be. She's in a lot less than you expect her to be. But she has a ton of, she sings a ton of different songs in this movie. She gets some good costumes, too. I guess. I love the orange Sunny and Cher number that she wears. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.

But again, there's not enough of that. I think there needed to be so much more variety in the kinds of... This is also a movie that opens with a, like, Chuck Jones-style old Looney Tunes, like... Which feels like the biggest, fuck you. It doesn't feel like, wouldn't it be cool if we did this? It feels like wouldn't it piss people? off if we did this. Which is too bad because like I like that as a concept. That got that gets my attention. You know what I mean? This idea. And and it that would that at least fooled me into thinking,

oh, Todd Phillips is like going for something here. He's really like he's he's trying. He's doing stuff. He's not just being completely lazy. I don't know how you can animate an entire sequence and still be as lazy as he is with this movie. to like, you have the callback to like the steps scene and it's like, does he do anything with it? No, they just sort of have a conversation on the steps. It's like, cool. Glad we did that. I don't know.

If I have, if I work towards my most generous read of what Todd Phillips could be trying to do here, me trying to be the most generous about what I think is on screen. is this, you know, extreme divergence between reality and this, you know, heightened fantasy. Because, like, all Arthur Flex, you know, persona is self-aggrandizement, right? And, like, that's what the whole, like, in-cell culture type of perspective this movie has on in-cell culture, self-aggrandizement. But then when, you know, the, the, the, boring non-event that is like Arthur Flex trial.

It's just ultimately this sad case of a, you know, violent or violent prone man. And that's maybe what Todd Haynes, or not Todd Haynes, God bless that this movie was directed by Todd Hayes, Todd Phillips. That's the most homophobic thing I've ever done. It is. I'm going to send you to gay court. Yeah.

Todd Phillips is trying to be like, you know, these men, believe in themselves in this one way, and they see themselves one way, but the real story is like non-dramatic, just this sad thing. And even in my most generous read, if that's my most generous read of what he's trying to attempt with this movie, it's an abject failure. Well, right. And I could get there, too, the idea that one of the themes of this movie and the other one, too, but especially this movie, is that there is, and again, he doesn't investigate enough to really make it land. That there is genuine anger and unrest out in these streets.

You know what I mean? That there is this, there's a mob forming out there. People are mad. They're not entirely sure why they're mad. Because ultimately, all they've seen of this guy is him go on TV and shoot Robert De Niro to death, right? Shoot this like beloved, beloved talk show host, but like an avatar of like the old generation. Shoot him to death. there is unfocused anger out there.

And I guess you could try and sell me on the idea that one of the themes of this movie is, or one of the narrative points of the movie, is that that kind of anger, if that kind of anger ends up being filtered or focused through a POV that is essentially lull, nothing matters, then you end up with real anarchy and violence and ugliness and lawlessness and whatever. And if Arthur had anything really to say at all that there might have been, I don't know, that these mobs of people would have been put to a purpose for better or worse, for good or bad, you know what I mean but ultimately this guy has nothing to say this guy has nothing to say but nonsensical jokes right the whole point of this guy is anytime he gets anybody's attention he always keeps wanting to get people's attention and then when he gets people's attention he just tells a joke that doesn't make any sense and then it's like think about it you know and

but the ultimately the I feel like I worry that I'm getting a little bit like boringly one note in this thing, but he just doesn't do anything with it. He doesn't do anything interesting with this movie at all. I mean, I think, again, I think if the first movie is not the movie it is by the people that it's from, somebody else gets to say the fuck you of this movie. Of saying, fuck you to the weird in-cell crowd that metastasize around the first movie.

Sure. And, you know, if somebody else gets to say, look how vacuous Arthur Fleck and the whole, like, Arthur Fleck psychology, the, like, gesturing at psychological analysis that's going on in that movie is all empty and vacuous and stupid. Somebody else gets to say that, fuck you. And, like, I think it's a valuable fuck you to make

because the original was a huge movie. It's just, it feels like Todd Phillips talking out of both sides of his mouth. Well, and it also, it doesn't have the impact that I think he wants it to have, in part because it's inaccurate. It's a, it's, it's inaccurate in the fact that the, you know, the faction of fans, of comic book fans, of, you know, whatever, online movie dorks or whatever, that are the, you know, sort of bad fans of Joker,

their whole POV seems to be, nothing is realistic unless it depicts the absolute, like, darkest, most violent, most depraved aspects of humanity, and anything short of that is sanitized. Anything short of, like, free-for-all violence, hardcore violence, bloody, hard-ar, you know, profanity, everything's fucked up. Joker is, like, the most, like, fucked up sadistic character. Anything short of that is sanitized and it's joky and it's Marvel and it's cutesy and it's trying to be family movies and it's trying to be, you know, to trying to, you know, appeal to modern America and it's Disney. Disney-Fide, all this sort of shit.

That's, but ultimately, Joker, the character Joker isn't giving you that. That is like Jared Leto Joker. You know what I mean? Like, that to me is, and people don't like Jared Letto Joker

for other reasons, partially of which, it's, you know, corporatized and whatnot, stupid. But it's not like Todd Phillips is critiquing that in any real way, because his thing was, I want to do, I want to do, what the fuck is his name? Rupert Pupkin, you know what I mean?

It's also a pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining thing. It's Todd Phillips trying to say that he is, that he is critiquing that thing or that he is analyzing that thing when really what he's doing is exploiting it. Yeah. He's, yeah. Joker is exploitation of that subset of culture.

It is not a critique of it. Right. Because ultimately it doesn't have anything to say about it. Because again, all he's really trying to do is to rip off King of Comedy and Tax. And the only thing that he might be saying with it is positive about it. Right. You know, is celebrating those people. Right.

I don't think it does. But like, that's all, that's the only. conclusion you could come to. Well, right, because it's the... If you think it says anything at all. The lasting image of the first one is Joker strutting down those steps and looking cool. You know what I mean? Because ultimately, everything is subordinate to looking cool.

Something that I think does look stupid is all of us who were predicting this movie. This is a circumstance where I'm like... You got me. We... I mean, they got me. too. Drag my ass. I mean, people stopped predicting it as soon as the movie opened.

Yeah. Though I was still like, I don't know, get a makeup nomination or something. Well, that's not insane. I do think that there was enough here in advance that we were, should have been like, maybe let's pump the brakes. I don't know. So what I was about to say, too, was speaking of abdicating a duty to serve one's audience, we got to talk about Lady Gaga, the Lady Gaga of it all.

Because... I always want to talk. Yes, I think, yes, were there red flags? Sure. I think there is a degree to which a movie like Joker is a little bit of a lightning in a bottle, and you can't really expect lightning to strike twice. And that I think I was altogether too willing to imagine. to imagine that whatever

Gaga-fied version of Folly Adieu that we were going to get was going to be, even in its best-case scenario, something that Oscar voters would be dazzled by. And ultimately, I think the best-case scenario version of Folli Adieu, the thing that I laid out earlier, where Todd Phillips actually stages a

big, bright, in-your-face spectacular movie musical in order to challenge the fans of the first one and really let Gaga go for it and really, you know, have these musical scenes be big and varied and, you know, whatever. I don't know if that works as well for a Lady Gaga as it does for a Joaquin Fee. Phoenix in terms of voters being impressed. Because ultimately, does that not just, would that not just, I'm living fully in the realm of the hypothetical at this point, but like, would that not just come across to these people as Lady Gaga doing Lady Gaga versus Joaquin Phoenix took on a character?

One of the great characters. Yes, took the risk of singing when he's not a singer. But also just like even Joaquin Phoenix for the 2019 movie, you know, there was so much of like, Joaquin Phoenix took on the iconic character of Joker and made it his own. You know what I mean? You said that in perfect Tyra cadence. I mean, no, truly any bullshity Oscar narrative that's out there, I need all of the Garys to, if you see something and you're like, that is publicity spin.

Say it in Tyra voice. Say it in Tyra voice. Because then maybe some of these dumber Oscar narratives that take such hold. won't. Sure, sure. But I also feel like we, you know, dumb Oscar narratives are good for business for you and me, so maybe let them keep going. I also feel like if there was a red flag, I think Lady Gaga's disinterest in doing her thing on the publicity tour for this movie was one. Because obviously, we all remember arriving in the boat

to the stars born premiere in Venice the sort of one of the great moments of one of the great movie star moments of the 21st century as far as I'm concerned and I'm not even kidding when I say that. Absolutely. No, I agree with you. And then followed up by the less successful but still wildly entertaining House of Gucci press tour

which gave us the fucking... Do you guys ever feel drunk drinking? you ever, rap drinks. Yep. The, all the countless... Stella Adler,

Circle and Square. Stella Adler. Salma Hayek sitting next to her looking completely puzzled. Don't yell at him. He's El Pacino. All that stuff.

Great stuff all. Doesn't end up working. I think there was a degree to which, and I know I said this, and I know other people said this too. Even if the movie's not good, the press tour is going to be real entertaining. And let me tell you,

it wasn't. Nobody seemedingly wanted to do publicity for this movie, much less like Todd Phillips. And like Gaga, I think, got the temperature of the room and was just like, okay. Like for maybe once in her life, she decided that I'm going to go low-key because this is maybe not going to be good for me. And then in short order, we got one of her best albums. And it was the right decision, right? To sort of, to let Fulia Doo die on the Vine and go concentrate on... What was the title of that album?

Herself. No, what was the title of that album? Oh, Mayhem. Mayhem. Yes, thank you. Because she also got well in that time period. Yes, yes. Okay, so you mentioned her reactions to the movie and the kind of, like, dead publicity cycle.

basically the second after this. Because also, this is the press conference where people were asking Joaquin Phoenix about backing out of the Todd Haynes movie. Was that already happening by them? Okay. Am I misremembering this? Because Joaquin hasn't had a movie since this.

So that was also contributing to... No, he has. He was in Eddington. Was Eddington when they were asking him about this? that. It might have been. Let me look up, uh, Joaquin, give me a second. I'm just going to push my mic to the side. But I do also think it's, you know, in terms of public favor, in terms of online favor, which of course we know means nothing, Joaquin's name has gone down in favor since his actual Oscar win. So, okay,

he dropped out of the Todd Hayden's movie in August of 2024. So yes, this would have been when he would have been getting asked about it. Yes. Yes. Um, um, And like that made him kind of persona non grata at that moment, at least in terms of like sinophile cycles. Which is like we've known this about Joaquin Phoenix for a while. I actually was not aware up until that point of just how extensive a history he had of dropping out of things at the last minute. Like that was an eye for me. Or threatening to. Yes.

Like they brought Paul Thomas Anderson uncredited onto Napoleon to keep Washington. He's like Captain Coldfeet, yeah, and did not realize the extent to that. So that was a little bit of an eye-opener. But talk about Lady Gaga in this movie. Is she left dying on the vine in this movie? Is she maybe not giving it her all? Is she too boxed in? Like, what is your assessment of Gaga on this movie?

I mean, I don't want to answer her question with a question, but what do you think of her performance when she's not singing? Like, what is she given to even play when it's not a musical sequence? That's kind of how I would, that's how, not to answer a question to a question with a question, but what is she given to play? Because ultimately, it's very kind of first thought, low effort scripting where... It's very will polish it in the rewrite. It's... And they never polished it.

Nothing seems particularly unique about this or is saying anything. new. She's devoted to him. She's a fan. You could very easily forget that she's supposed to be Harley Quinn. Well, yes. Except for the fact that, like, that's the only Joker girlfriend who ever exists. You know what I mean? Yes, but, like, where is the, where is any nod towards an iconography?

No, yes. Except for that one makeup she wears to court one time. Right. No, this is true. This is true. Because even the musical sequence, it never nods towards the iconography of that character. Right.

It nods towards the iconography of the era it's portraying. It nods to things like the Sunnian Share Show. She might as well be an imaginary, you know, exist only in his head. Because ultimately, what she's there for, plot-wise... Manicixie girl that screws you over. Well, yeah, it's to sort of... She exists to push him towards a defense of himself, right? She pushes him towards this, you know, fire.

hearing Catherine Keener as his lawyer and representing himself in court and putting on a show, I'm turning this trial into, you know, a circus. This is the other thing is, I mean, not to bring in, like, in the real legal system. But the thing where he shows up to court in full Joker makeup and costume, and the judge just goes, the judge, who has been such a hard ass to him this entire trial, right? All of a sudden is just like, well, the law requires. that I allow you to represent yourself as you see fit. And it's just like, sir, you have options.

You have recourses. You certainly could at the very least say, okay, if you're going to do this, which is very obviously putting on a show for your followers out there, we're going to not televise this. But like, I love that the judge is just like, can't fight City Hall. Nothing I can do.

I guess you're just going to have to present your, you know, cross-examine your witness in full Joker makeup and regalia. It's like, okay, all right. I mean, I think the fuller picture of Gaga in this movie, yes. She is playing a very underwritten character that doesn't even get to like make good on the like franchise, like, where she would fall into on the franchise with the character. She's, finger quotes playing. You know, she is a committed performer. I think she is maybe the only person who comes out of this thing.

Skaid, personally, I would say that. Because, like, she's at least... She's not harmed by this movie. Committing to what is being asked of her. Yeah. And, like, making the most out of these kind of scraps of a character. And I would also add, like, you know, you talk about, like, male fantasies of women in movies. Sometimes there's, like, this weird, heterosexual male fantasy where it's, like, the woman who screws you over.

Because it's the trope of, like, she's misrepresenting. representing herself to get closer to him. She fakes a pregnancy and she leaves a winning. Women are liars. This is like the most woman-hating version of Harley Quinn that's maybe ever existed. And like to, I don't know if it's to Gaga's credit, but like I do think Gaga as she performs it does the best she can with getting out of those tropes. And yet also, I feel like it's a better movie if it leans into that a little bit more. and just sort of investigates this character who is a privileged upper west side daughter of a doctor

who has decided to cosplay anarchy because she's bored. You know what I mean? Investigate that character. Show me more of that. At least make her like a person. Instead, the result is, see women lie to you. Right. And it's like, okay, Todd Phillips.

The other thing is, remember how when Joanne, the album, Joanne, came out. And then Gaga played that song for her grandmother. And she did. Wait, what was I thinking of when I was like, this is just like Gaga and her grandmother. And now I can't think of it. Fuck.

Me with all of the memes I sent you? No, it was something where I was like, I don't know. No, I can't remember. Gary's, I need you to know that in the dichotomy of our friendship, I am the meme sender. Joe is the left on red to the meme. I am. I'm glad that you don't take that as offense.

You send me a lot of memes. And mostly it's just like, I just don't know how to respond to this. I don't know what I'm supposed to say to this. And so I do leave you on red. Yes. I'll think of it at some point. But there is something. Oh, no, that's what it is. It's the Liza Minnelly shit. It's the stuff from the Liza book where Liza's like, Gaga wanted me in the chair. I didn't want to be in the chair. She wanted to like, you know, it felt insulting and ultimately lies. Okay, Michael Feinstein. But ultimately, I was like, this is just like Gaga and her grandmother? Where Gaga's like, Nana, is this too painful for you? Like, we don't have to talk about it, but let's talk about it. But we don't have to,

but this is obviously like, obviously you're going through a lot of emotion. There's a lot of pain. And the grandma's finally just like, honey, it was a long time ago. And this is, this is that, but also, into a situation where the other person who's not Gaga is also a Gaga of her own. You know what I mean? It's just like Liza was Gaga before Gaga. Like, Liza is also telling her own story at the same time. So it's just these two oppositional forces who are trying to, like, be the storyteller of this

moment that they're having at the Oscars. and ultimately Gaga won and Liza was resentful about it. Well, I hope that there's not a gay guy in Gaga's future who's going to overtake her entire narrative because they can't create one for themselves. That was maybe the meanest version that I think. My meanest version of saying, we need to do a free Liza like we did a free Britney.

Well, Liza's, you know, not to indulge that awful Twitter account or whatever, but like Liza doesn't have a ton of time left. I'm just going to let Liza be Liza for a while. I hate that account. We all hate that account. It's a terrible account. Wait, but I was going to say one more thing. Oh, right, Joanne.

You know how there, when Joanne came out and there was a sizable subset of, and I'm just going to say gay guys because I'm comfortable slandering them, who were like, this sucks. This is anti-pop. This was also like the Star is Born thing. Lady Gaga has turned her back on pop music. And I don't want to listen to any goddamn, like, country ballads or whatever. Or it's just like, and just go back to born this way already.

Like that kind of thing. I want Judas. And so my version. Every single artist who has had longevity in their career ventures into different genres. Also, Joan's a good album. Like, deal with it. My version of this, though, is having to watch Lady Gaga half sing Great American Songbook songs and, like, Stevie Wondercovers and whatever,

was painful to me. I'm like, just let her sing out, Louise. Well, you can tell that there's some type of note where it's like, well, in these real world sequences that are still also fantasy, you know. In my version, Lee Quinzel is not a good singer. She can't sing. But then in the fantasy sequences, she does get to sing normally. That's why I think the Harlequin album exists is so she can do the literal same song.

Yes. Yes. I can sing these songs. Right. But like it is excruciating to me to like slow down to, you know, it's like listening to a podcast on like half speed or whatever. It's less painful than Joaquin Phoenix trying to do Leonard Cohen, drag. Well, Watkin Phoenix singing in this movie is painful.

Yes. But even in the spectrum of people who have been in musicals that can't sing. Sure. She's pretty bad. But he's also doing the same thing of like, if I sound like my voice is strained, it's going to make me seem like a more interesting character because I'm tortured. And it's like, leave, then leave Fred Astor alone, as far as I'm concerned. And then leave Stevie Wonder alone.

Then leave Franks and I do. have a question about this. Like, were these songs chosen out of convenience because there is no coherence to, I guess they're all love songs, but that is such a broad umbrella. That is like, it's the Great American Songbook. And not to say that, you know, the other places that it goes, like the Leonard Cohen-y stuff, or there's actually like no thread between the musical stylings and the song choices that happen. Like, that's life, that's entertainment, and for once in my life are three completely

different baskets of youth. I think most of the songs that are chosen are chosen for irony, like irony's sake, get happy, that's entertainment, like, um... But like big band, great American songbook and like, you know, mid-centristensual. or like late mid-century R&B are three completely different. Oh, yeah. Oh, there's no, there's no stylistic cohesion. Absolutely not. And then it's like, okay, how many songs can we get where the title or the chorus

talks about like somebody being like in thrall to somebody else? And it's like, okay, well, how about bewitched, bothered and bewildered? And how about for once in my life? And how about to love somebody? and, you know, and then, okay, well, now we want to be ironic again, so it's going to be when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you, because you know who smiles? The Joker. Like, isn't that crazy? It also feels like Todd Phillips just doesn't have any tasted music.

Like, he just doesn't know songs. Well, yes, I think he just, like, flipped through. He knows 15 songs and 14 of them are in this movie. Yeah. You know what are some good songs? Like, this was the thing, is listening to this, I'm like, several moments. I'm like, I just want to go listen to Frank Sinatra singing That's Life. Like, that's a good...

I just want to go listen to Stevie Wonder. I just want to go listen to Stevie Wonder. I just want to go listen to Leonard Cohen. I just want to go listen to Fred Astaire. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I want to listen to the fucking Bee Gees. Yes.

So that was my... You're right. They did cut that sequence where the Joker's saying, stay in alive as he's dying. Todd Phillips would do that. Classic, yes. That's surprising that they did not do that. Thank God they did not do MacArthur Park in this,

because then we could keep it pristine for the Olympics this year. Very happy about that. Did you end up watching that? Were you? I know you're not an Olympics person. But like, did you catch any of that free skate? In like reels, yes, yes. Queen, love her.

Excellent song choice. Love it. London. Drag Race is going to... Drag Race is going to have her be a guest judge and it's going to be just too late for it to feel like current. You're going to be like, oh yeah, right.

The Olympics last year. You know what I mean? They're going to have her a guest judge in the most demented way possible. Like, it's going to be the rousical about... Tanya Harding. Tanya Harding.

Honestly? Tanya Harding is joining a ballroom scene. You say that. And their spies. Tanya Harding, the unauthorized russicle, I'm not not interested. It has Let's Go Joan potential. I'm just going to say. I'm just going to say it.

I'm just going to say it. Not a good russicle this season. Not to take us down a path, but not my favorite russicle this season. All right. What else did I write down? The Looney Tunes, fuck you. Oh, I did resent that there was an, literally an industry plant scene in that Harry Lottie and Ken Leung have a courtroom scene together.

Oh, yeah. I thought you meant industry plant as in like... Well, this is what I... This is what counts for wordplay. This is a wink-wink. This is how I do it. Yes. It's a pun.

Yes. What else was I going to say that bothered me? I mean... Oh, can we talk about the cast member who comes out the worst for wear of anybody? That Brendan Gleason followed up his big Oscar nomination with this. Like, you... I remember photos of him and Gaga happening on that red carpet. Oh, that's nice.

And her being like, oh, I saw Brendan and I just did a B-line for him because I don't know anybody here, but I know him. Oh, okay, that makes me happy. Isn't that sweet? Isn't that sweet? I'm glad that those two then were close because that at least gives me a good feeling that, like, Brendan Gleason got something out of this. Because, like, you don't say no to this role. It's obviously, I imagine he got paid because this movie's budget was crazy.

I want to talk about that. I think this is a kind of classic post-Oscar nomination. You cash in that check or whatever. But he's playing the most one note. villain in this movie and it just does absolutely nothing for him. He's not even an interesting villain. He doesn't even like, he's just the most like, he's an Irish, a corrupt Irish cop. Like, have a second thought, Todd Phillips. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, uh, yeah, whatever. The budget of this movie, this is a $200 million movie. It looks nothing like it. I mean,

there's a bunch of different sets because every musical number has a different set. Yeah. They also, like, did location shooting for this movie, too, so that makes things expensive. But there is nothing on screen that looks like it would be three times the budget of the original. And, you know, this is made and released by Warner Brothers. And Warner Brothers, like, immediately starts getting shit after this movie for the budgets that they're giving things like The Bride, One Battle After Another, and Sinners. And we're dropping this episode, the day after. one of those movies, not the bride,

wins best picture. Yeah. And it's like, those are movies that are going to make money in perpetuity. Even though sinners, the rights are going to go back

to Ryan Coogler, guess what, Warner Brothers is going to make a ton of money off of Cing while they still have the rights. Oh, that's been the craziest thing about that whole story,

all the pearl clutching about Ryan Coogler setting a bad precedent that filmmakers might not be, if filmmakers want to retain these rights, why would studios want,

to give them the money to make these movies. It's like, y'all, Warner Brothers is doing fine. You know, Warner Brothers is doing, well, on sinners. Warner Brothers did just fine on sinners. You know what I mean? No, obviously Warner Brothers is not doing fine in general. That's probably going to be a long drawn out thing to fall apart and then maybe Warner Brothers just won't exist anymore.

If Ryan Coogler has the rights to his movie in 20 years, good for him. Good. Good. Yes. He'll be the only person. Yes, exactly. Good. That whole library will be sinking in the bottom of the sea.

Yeah. It'll be the only movie available. Like, well, I'll be watching sinners all day because it's the only movie that will be available to watch because Ryan Coogler has the right story. You know, we could do a lot worse. We could have Joker Folly do. Well, that's true. But it's just that those movies, which are going to have success in perpetuity. Oh, go ahead.

Did we know that the animated sequence at the beginning was directed by Sylvain Schomey? I think I knew that tangentially, but didn't, like, I've heard that before. It just never sticks. That's wild. Okay, anyway, sorry I interrupted you. Very rude me. Well, I'm sure that sequence costs money. They shot it on IMAX film stock, which, like, this is, like, the only movie that they don't make money off of doing IMAX 70 millimeter film.

Yeah. Because, like, you can still fill a house doing any Christopher Nolan movie presented in that format, sinners, one battle after another. And like, if you put Joker in a 70-millimeter iMex film right film theater right now, no one would show up. Yeah. Even though those formats are super rare. Yeah. It's just, like, I guess you can see why, especially during a regime change, they would greenlight this movie at whatever dollar amount had to be thrown at them. But it's just like they received no criticism for paying that much for this movie.

But then those other movies get, like, criticism out the ass for how much money it costs to make those. movies. Like, it's ridiculous. I think it's symptomatic of, and maybe it's this, you know, maybe it's nobody's fault when this kind of thing happens. But when a movie becomes a billion dollar movie and everybody's kind of at a loss for why it did quite that well, which I think to some degree that was the case with Joker, I think certainly a lot of people believed in that movie. But I think the fact that that movie made a billion dollars and got 11 Oscar nominations and ended up sort of threading the needle despite having like legit controversy

and people being like up in arms about like it's going to cause school shootings or whatever. I don't think there were, I think people didn't quite know what to attribute that to. So they were like, this has the magic formula. Take all of our money. Do that magic formula thing again.

And didn't have the wherewithal to see that Todd Haynes, didn't want to make this movie. So, um, yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

I mean, I guess complaining about them, the money I always feel like is so short-sighted. Yeah. People want to get paid. But it's just like this movie, I don't think you see that money on the screen. And things like sinners,

one battle, even the bride, I think you see that money on screen. I wouldn't say that this movie looks like shit. but it's not a dazzler. It doesn't like, it doesn't look tremendous. You know what I mean?

It doesn't look like a $200 million movie, which is exactly the point you were making. Yeah. What else did I write down? A couple of things that I found interesting, curious. You know, I don't like to talk about the Razies. But the 2024 Razies lineup for worst film is worth

spelling out. Joker is nominated. Fullyadu is nominated. Madam Webb is your winner. Megalopolis is a nominee. Borderlands is a nominee. Reagan is a nominee. Now I know neither one of us saw Reagan.

I know neither of us saw Borderlands. I was going to say, you didn't see Borderlands, did you? Because neither did I. No. We both saw the other three, though, right? You saw Megalopolis. You saw Madam Webb.

Yes. Okay. Ridiculous that Megalopolis is there. Patently ridiculous. But like the most predictable. I could have made. I mean predictable, yes, but like, deeply predictable.

Give me a break. Coppola wins, quote unquote, wins, worst director. This was a, this was a floppy year. Like this was, 2024 was a year where we really, we had a lot of different and varied reactions to flops because Madam Webb flopped and then kind of immediately got picked back up and celebrated ironically. I think almost immediately,

people were like, Madam Webb rocks, like this kind of thing. Yeah, were you... Mountain Dew Code Red Cinema. Megalopolis kind of that way too, although Megalopolis was... People were bound and determined to make that movie an important thing, and I think, like, stuck to it.

I think, to me, of what was more interesting were the people who sort of reacted in the moment to Megalopolis in like one of 18 billion different ways because I think no two reactions to Megalopolis are the same. They're like snowflakes in that way. And I did not find that to be a particularly good movie. I found it to be a fascinating movie that I've only ever seen the ones and I didn't see the like whatever God help. That's not exactly super available for. you to see it again. Right. But like I never went and saw it again in theaters or whatever. It's a deeply, deeply, deeply earnest movie, which makes it not cool in today's metrics.

Stylistically, the only movie I kept thinking of was Repo, the Genetic Opera. So like, in that way, I was like, huh, you know what I mean? I was I was nonpluss to say the least. I don't think that it is as good as the comps that came to my mind when I saw the bride. But the things I thought about when I saw the bride were, Nomi Malone. Okay. Megalopolis. Okay. This movie is kind of like evil megalopolis.

Okay. James Wales, megalopolis? Yes. Jupiter ascending. Oh. Okay. Great movie. and just general Boslerman.

Yeah, you mentioned Boslerman before, yeah. And I think it has some kinship to the Schumacher Batman movies. Holy Macro. That's a stew. You got a stew going right there. It's a crazy movie. That's a heck of a gumbo that Maggie has brewed together. Everybody seems in agreement that Maggie's out of her mind making this movie.

But, like, she's absolutely good for her. And good for her. Girl, take the bag and run. Yeah. Like, it is extremely directed by someone who lives in Park Slope. Like, it just... As somebody who's lived there twice, I do take some offense to that. But okay. I'll wear it.

I'll wear that. The bride, not a bad movie. Not a good movie. Right. Two years later, where are you on Madam Webb? Are you still net positive on Madam Webb? Oh, I mean, it's a non-functioning movie. You know, you can tell that there were reshoots on reshoots,

and they still just didn't film enough to make a coherent narrative. That thing is a mess, but I had such a good time watching it. Again, I said this before. I'll say it again. It's the first live-action RuPaul's Drag Race Acting Challenge. That is the vibe of Madam Webb. And it's Dakota Johnson High Safe, Sydney, Sweeney, bottom two. Tahar Rahim, Lipsing for your life?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Taha Rahim also at the Razzie nominee. Who's the best performance in that movie? I've got to look up who else. Mountain Duke Code Red. Mountain Duke Code Red.

The Pepsi sign. Madam Webb. I am kind of mad we're never going to get a Madam Webb, too, even though I didn't not like it. 100 times out of 100, if you hold a gun to my head and say, are you watching Joker Fully Adieu, or are you watching Madam Webb? 100 times out of 100, I'm picking Madam Webb. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

It's a worse movie, but Fulia Doo is just unpleasant. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I go Dakota Best in Show. I like Dakota Johnson. I admit it. Love her. Love her. I know that, like, it's

become a lot less cool to like Dakota Johnson for whatever reason. I feel like people got tired of that narrative and are looking for something new. But, I'm not not interested in this Michael Showalter movie based on the Colleen Hoover novel that she's going to be in with Anne Hathaway.

What? With her and Anne Hathaway, Verity. Oh, right, right. Psychological Thriller Baby starring Dakota Johnson, Anne Hathaway, and Josh Hartnett. Two thumbs up, way up. But it's an Amazon and Jem. It's going to be a great time to be an Anne Hathaway fan. A Dide in the Wool, Anne Hathaway fan.

This is going to be the one comes late. Anne Hathaway is going to be in like four movies in the span of eight weeks. It's crazy. She's going to be in two of the biggest movies of the summer. It's, I, as I, as I, as I, before recording, as I sent, having this conversation with random former guest, Kyle, Amato, Hi, Kyle. I sent the Azalea Banks video of congratulations, bitch, we've been through it, but you made it. Congratulations. Um, so upcoming. Mary is in March.

No. Mother Mary is April 17th. Devil Where's Prada 2 is May 1st. The Odyssey is July 17th. And then does Flowervale Street? Flower Vale Street? So David Robert Mitchell, if that's the title of it.

That's supposed to come late summer. August. Verte is supposed to come in October. And then alone at dawn is probably 20th. 27. So her and

Adam Driver and Betty Gilpin and the Ron Howard. The song that they released from Mother Mary, I love it. I haven't listened to it yet. I want to listen to it for the first time in the movie, I think. Okay. I think. What a year, though, for Anne Hathaway. I'm so excited. I do think Devil Wears Pradootoo is going to be quite

bad. And then if it's not... I'm worried. I will be pleasantly surprised. But I do... I kind of don't care what that movie becomes. I'm just excited to, like, go on opening night in a way that I have not been excited to go on opening. I will care if it's awful and then everybody pretends that it's not. That's going to bother me.

I don't know if it's going to get away with that, but I understand where you're coming from. That trailer gave me such pause. I have such doubt. Devil Where's Prada too gave me such doubt. Is anybody in that movie that was like not in the first? Oh, Branagh. Kenneth Branagh.

Brana plays her. husband. Oh, and Lucy Loo's in it. And Justin Thoreau plays Blunt's husband. Is Andy Sacks defiantly single? Is that what's going on? I hope Andy Sacks gets to come out as a lesbian. Okay.

Also, I imagine these are people... Nothing would make me happier. I imagine these are people maybe cameoing or cameoing as themselves. Rachel Bloom, Sydney, Sweeney, Donatella, Versace, Lady Gaga, Sierra, some of those people Caleb Heron

I imagine some of those people are cameoing as themselves probably Donatella Versace Lady Gaga maybe Sidney Sweeney I hope Donatella Versace

is not cameoing as herself I would love to see Donatella Versace just like play a character She should play the older version of the Giselle Bunchen character from the first one

And she's just She should play Miranda's twins She should play Miranda's sister shows up at the end like Cher at the end of Mamma Mia. A little girl, that's the best kind of party. That's what she says to Anne Hathaway. The fact that Tracy Tom's is back is really going to ignite my... Adrian Grenier is not the villain of Devil Wears Prada.

Her friends are. Tracy Tom's and the guy from Mad Men, Harry, Rich Summer, are the villains of Devil Wars Prada. Those selfish... Red the piece, I would read it. assholes who get a fucking whatever. It's Moira Higgins getting the Birkenbag, but then if Moor Higgins have the temerity

to like be a bitch to rob after. That's what would happen. That is Tracy Tom's in the Devil Wars product. She gets a nice fucking purse from Andy, and then she just like, immediately is like, your job is making you bad.

You've changed. Yeah. Yes, you've changed. You've become a bad person. Can I also say I'm just going to keep going. Streep and Hathaway on the poster, Emily Blunt is, her face has just moved about six inches upward. Like all of her face now exists

cheekbone and up, whatever. Go look at the poster right now and tell me what is going on with Stanley Tucci. It's a like Rupert Everett level of like... I mean, I'm sure this is all bad, Photoshop. Of course it is. Although, but Emily Blunt's face for real has gotten freaky. Oh, we have character posters with just like twos over people's face. Why does this have the same posters we don't live here anymore? Why are we doing this? But doesn't Tucci look absolutely

unrecognizable and just not like himself? Yeah, they overlaid a different person's face over that man's face. Yeah, it's not good. It's not good. Anyway, This movie deserves better posters than this. I'm glad that Aline Brosh-McKennan is back. Oh, that's probably the, that's the Rachel Bloom connection. That is the best sign about this movie that Eileen Brush-Makena is back. Yep, yep. That is the best sign.

100%. Okay. Other, oh, okay. I pulled out, this, Folia Dew had a few sort of stray nominations and things, some of them for bad movie awards. Lady Gaga was the runner-up for best film performance. at the queer teas for... That's so shady to give a runner-up to Lady Gaga. Winner was Jonathan Bailey for Wicked.

Runner-up was Lady Gaga for Foli Adieu. Also nominated, what I would consider to be eight really good performers. Well, one I haven't seen. Hunter Schaefer and Kuku loved that. Maisie Stella and My Old Ass. Julio Tourism Problemista, legend. Justice Smith and I saw the TV glow, legend. Coleman Domingo and Sing, Oscar nominated.

Elliot Page and close to you, only one that I haven't seen. And Katie O'Brien. And Katie O'Brien and Love Lies Bleeding. What is Lady Gaga? I understand why Lady Gaga is on this list because, like, A, she's Lady Gaga and B, maybe she'll come to the queer days this year. I doubt she did to be runner up.

What is going on? What is... First of all, Lady Gaga is bisexual. Do not do bi-iracial. Oh, that's not what I mean. I mean, it's the one that's not like a particularly great performance on this list. it's just not. It's a, it's 10 deep, so it's a lot of performance.

There's a lot of room. I think you could find other people. I think you could find other people. You probably could, yeah. Anyway, remember when Jonathan Bailey was getting awards for playing Fierra? Nothing against Jonathan Bailey. He's innocent. Yes, we're both voting for-

No, we're both voting for Justice Smith. 100%. I still haven't seen the trailer for the new... The new Jane Chon. The new Jane Joan Brown. I will avoid it for as long as I can. I'm going to try. I don't need to see a trailer for this movie.

I'm sat, as the kids say. Anything else you want to say? They kept referencing that awful TV movie they made about the Arthur Fleck situation. Did you notice that? No. They referenced it a couple of times. A, I don't think that's how TV movies work nowadays. I think a more accurate thing would have been like they made that awful.

Netflix docuseries about it or something like that. Yes, but this is set in the 70s or in the 70s of the mind. It's like fake, right, it's fake taxi drivers. You're right to call that into question because this movie's loose idea, very loose ideas about the media and publicity. Mail rage. Are very, very nails on a chalkboard and basic. Yeah. of how this wants to like talk about well media cycles are bad yeah yeah it's kind of at the

fringes of most of the yeah no you're right that's right because that's why they try and get away with saying this is the first time a court procedure a trial has ever been televised and yeah okay right 70s got it anything else you want to say um uh justice for katherine keener uh get the keener off the joker movie i don't want to see that I don't want to see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Just for Kevin. Get her into literally anything else she wants to be in. 100%. Yeah. Catherine Keener should have been in Ella McKay. Not that that was like a great movie. But like one, what she should have been in James L. Brooks movies for the like the 90s. She would have been great in a James L. Brooks movie.

I'm saying. Yeah. She should have played Ella McKay. Yes, at all ages. Yes. Catherine Keener, the daughter of Rebecca Hall. It would have been no less strange. It would have been a please give reunion, so you would have had that.

But like temperamentally, Catherine Keener would be an exquisite discourse, disgrace former governor L.M. O, 100%. No, that's the sequel we need is like older L.M.K., Catherine Keener. Post disgrace. How does she come back? How does she do it? Yeah, working in nonprofit. All right. Why don't you let our listeners know what the IMDB game is, and then we will play some IMDB game.

Every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, where we challenge each other with an actor or actress to try to guess the top four titles that IMDB says they are most, ding, ding, known for. If any of those titles are television, voice-only performances or non-acting credits, we'll mention that up front. After two wrong guesses, we get the remaining titles release years as a clue. If that's not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints. Listeners, please know that Joe is mouthing along to me, and it is throwing me off. Uh, that's the IMDB game. That's the IMDB game. All right. Chris, I picked someone. You picked someone. Do you want to give first or guess first? Uh, I'll give first.

All right. Uh, this is someone we have never done before. Uh, I chose for maybe the obvious reasons, but I chose Heath Ledger. Heath Ledger, the late great. That's very well chosen. Okay. Um, broke back Mountain in the dark night, I imagine our leg. guaranteed. Yes, both.

So, what are your other contenders? You've got your 10 things I hate about you. You've got like Ned Kelly, he plays the title character, the Brothers Grimm, the Patriot, but probably not. Uh-huh,

what did you do in between Brokeback Mountain and the Dark Night? I guess it was only a few years, but still. I'm going to guess ten things I hate about you. Correct. You are one guess away from a short of course.

Okay. It's not going to be Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus. It's not going to be, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. Oh, that one, didn't you do a movie like The Covenant or something like that, right? This, like, quasi-exercist. He did do a movie called The Covenant.

Are you guessing The Covenant? I'm going to guess Ned Kelly. It's the order, not the Covenant. Oh, sorry. Ned Kelly is wrong. Okay. I'm going to guess the Brothers Grim. Also wrong.

Your year is 2001. Oh, idiot. That's so stupid of me. me, a Knight's Tale. A Knights' Tale. I knew there was something out there that was big that I was forgetting. A night time. I also didn't want to say this beforehand,

but like, this is why we haven't done Heath Ledger. It's too easy. It's pretty easy. It's pretty easy. I mean, maybe the same for this one. So I went down the Todd Phillips route. Actress who has

appeared in a couple of Todd Phillips movies was in due date and old school. The Great Juliette Louis. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Juliet Lewis. Cape Fear.

Her Oscar nomination. Unfortunately, the other sister. No, not the other sister. Oh, well, that's for better, even though I have a wrong answer. I'll say old school. Not old school. Old school. Okay. So the years are, 1994, 1996 and 2013.

Natural Boyn Killers is 96. 94. Oh, 94. Okay. Is 96 California? No. California was 93. Okay.

What was the other year? 2013. Okay. Oh, interesting. Uh, 96. What's she up to in 96? This is pre-other sister, which I believe is 98. I think you're right.

about that. I know that I've probably, oh, is it Strange Days? No, Strange Days is I believe 95. 95. Yes. So the thing with this 96 movie is it's a little bit of a regression in that, like, in Natural Born Killers and Strange Days, Juliet played adults.

And then she kind of like backtracked into playing teenagers again. Oh, okay. And it's not a... Yeah, because other sisters she's playing... It's not a comedy. It is very much not a comedy. Oh, is it... She didn't do another horror movie, did she?

In 96? Oh, it is a horror movie in 96. Yes. She's definitely, like, four or five down the billing order. This is a very well-remembered movie. I really like this movie. It's starring a very, very big star who is in an element that he...

Pretty much never revisits after this. Interesting. And then your second build character, your second build actor, is not usually an actor, and is a polarizing figure indeed. A musician? No. A reality host. No, not that far from the movie industry. He's not an actor.

He's a director. Oh, it's from dusk till dawn. It is from dusk till dawn. Yeah, I should have gotten that earlier. I really love that movie. Okay. I do not like that movie. I know.

I imagine that that exists on a predictable divide between the both of us. Predictable that I would like it. Predictable that you would not. I only saw it for the first time as an adult. That probably makes a difference. That probably makes a difference. That's sure. Nistalgia does a lot for that movie.

Yeah. Oh, sure. Totally. I watched it a ton when I was a teenager. Okay. So 2013. is, God, there's one clue that I could give. No.

Okay. That's a movie that we've done. There's one very specific clue that I can give you that will make you get it immediately. Hmm. I don't want that clue. You want it? No, I don't want that clue yet. She's on the poster, but it's not really saying much.

And in a decade, she'd be in Ma. Yeah, she's definitely on the poster. It is a very, I kind of love this poster, even though I think it was a little bit of a divisive. I think some people really thought it was a bad. Well, it's not a well-liked movie. I can't think the poster had its fans and had a poster for. Well, it's her and one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight other people. Wow.

Okay. So it's like a Casa Delos Babies situation where it's an ensemble on a poster. Is it an ensemble of women? No, there are three men on this poster. So it's not Acosta Delos Babies, it's Acosta Delos Mabes. Yes, there's definitely a Casa. There's all in a Casa in this. Of...

Yes. It's Augustusage County. It is. What was the clue I was going to give you? That everybody in this movie has it in there known for. That's exactly right. If I had said, this is one of those movies. where everybody in the cast has it in there known for you and have gotten it immediately.

And I'm so mad that I didn't get it. I'm so mad I didn't get both of those two because I should have, but... Well, you know, it's getting late. The sun has just set in at 7.30. I love whatever, whether we're in daylight savings or whether we're in regular, not daylight savings, I don't know, but whatever this is after spring forward, I love it. All right, Chris, what a good episode.

We have broken the seal on the films of 2024. Expect some more of these movies throughout the year. We've got some good stuff on the horizon for you coming up very soon. So look forward to that. If you want our reactions to the Oscar ceremony. They're coming up on Patreon this Friday. Go sign up to the Patreon. You'll get it on Friday.

Is that a little late to be giving Oscar reactions? Maybe, but we'll be there. No, it's not. We'll be fine. What we're doing is good and fine. No, it's a good idea. It's what I think listeners will want to hear from us about. Just like, marinate in your own feelings about them for a while and then come back to us. One of my favorite Seinfeld quotes. It's a smart line and a smart audience will get it. All right. That is our episode. If you want more of This Head Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr at thisheadoscarbuzz.com. You should also check out our Instagram at ThisHet Oscar Buzz.com.

had Oscar buzz. Chris, where can the listeners find more of you? Letterbox and Blue Sky at Chris Vee File. I am on Letterbox and Blue Sky at Joe Reed. Reed is spelled REID, and you could also find me every single day at Vulture, doing my Vulture thing. The calendar is just about to turn over into Emmy's season. So if I have a little bit of a pit in my stomach, it is only because I now have to catch up on six months worth of television that I was not watching while I was paying attention to movies. I'll catch up to Death by Lightning.

It's three episodes. Oh, I definitely want to watch Death by Lightning. We would like to thank Kyle Cummings for his fantastic artwork. Dave Gonzalez and Gavin Muvius for their technical guidance. Please remember, you can rate, like, and review us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get podcasts. A five-star review in particular really helps us out with Apple Podcasts visibility. So if you're smiling, the whole world will be smiling with you,

and hopefully you'll all be writing something nice about us when you're in such a good mood. That is all for this week, but we hope you'll be back next week for more buzz. That's entertainment.