This Had Oscar Buzz - 387 – Ain’t Them Bodies Saints

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

As maverick director David Lowery returns to theatres this week with Mother Mary, we’re looking back at his 2013 film Ain’t Them Bodies Saints. The film follows two Texas lovers played by Casey Affleck and Rooney Mara torn apart by a showdown with local police, where he accepts guilt and jail time when she shoots a … Continue reading "387 – Ain’t Them Bodies Saints"

Hello, the right house. I didn't get that. I'm from Canada, that water. Dick Poop. I dreamed about you again last night. I hold your face in my mind. I think about your hair getting longer. Think about your belly getting bigger.

I think about our baby girl. I shot someone. I think I shot someone. Hello and welcome to the This Had Oscar Buzz podcast, the only podcast that Jennifer Ely, makes herself a risky test subject to come and see. Every week on this had Oscar buzz, we'll be talking about a different movie

that once upon a time had Lofty Academy Award aspirations, but for some reason or another, it all went wrong. The Oscar hopes died and we're here to perform the autopsy. I am your host Chris Fyle and I'm here, as always, with the Holy Saint of Badiadi-Odi-O-Di-Jo Reed. Touch the Saints. Touch all of this Saints.

Right off the top, what does this title mean? It doesn't mean anything, And I read on, as I'm, you know, researching for this movie that it's, it's, the title comes from David Lowry, mishearing the lyrics to a song. Great. Which I'm like, that's kind of perfect. So it's gibberish. It means nothing. It's, it sounds profound.

It sounds, it's one of those titles where if you are not inclined to like this movie, you can be like, that title is so pretentious. And if you are inclined to like this movie, you still have to be like, that title. The title, though. I mean, mishearing the lyrics of a song is kind of the vibe that he's going for, right? Because this whole movie is about like American Southern myth. Like the type of song that you hear and it's like people think of it as a love song, but the song when you listen to the lyrics is actually like a tragedy. This is really awful.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what he's, the whole thing he's doing. Yes, yes. This great Bonnie and Clyde love story, and it ends him bleeding out on her floor. Right. And like the whole myth portion of the movie is like the first 10 minutes, right?

It's selling you on a different movie and it does a hard pivot. That's like the substance of the movie. That's like what David Lowry is wanting to do. And I went back and read some reviews, and I feel like I read multiple where people didn't get that that's what it's doing, that they think that the movie kind of very quickly loses the plot of being this myth. And it's like, no, it's not supposed to be this. It's supposed to be the foolhardiness of, you know, buying into these, like, I guess, Americana ideals. of romance and crime and, you know, that ultimately it's these people leave these small, sad lives.

And I think Runei Mara's character does this kind of hard pivot because she has to go through the reality of being a parent and a single parent at a very different time too. And you just kind of see, in rewatching this, I've really loved her performance in this movie. You just kind of see it written all over her body that she can. kind of got real, you know, about being a person and not really holding on to these romantic ideals about life. Yeah. What, as hesitant as I am to sort of lump in marketing with, you know, the kind of artistic functions of the movie, artistic, um, ambitions of the movie, I do think it's somewhat telling that like,

What was the image that was constantly used in marketing for this movie? What was the still from the movie? It's that one shot of the two of them being dragged out in handcuffs, kind of like... And it's the poster, too. ...inseparable from each other. It's the poster. Like, they really leaned on that image really hard, and you watch it play out in the movie, and it's like, oh, well, first of all, this is such an incredibly...

incredible looking, incredibly filmed shot and seen. Bradford Young really freaking it in that shot especially. But also, like, it's, that goes to your point as well, whereas, like, that's the myth making, right? Like, that's the, that's the Bonnie and Clyde image. They're handcuffed, but they won't let go of each other. And, and then the rest of the movie. It's an incredibly, like, striking image that, like, immediately kind of sells you, because

it's a poster of the movie. It sells you on the idea of this thing that David Lowry is effectively bait and switching you on. Right, right. The rest of the movie is maybe not necessarily a dismantling of that, but a disillusioning of that, you know, in some way. Aethem Body Saints is one of those movies where I see all of that and I see great intentionality in it. And it's, I'm unable to separate it from the fact that I've loved so much of David Lowry's subsequent output. You know what I mean? It's still a movie that I can appreciate much, much more than really enjoy.

Even given the caveat that, like, enjoy, you know, is carrying a lot of weight, you know, and something like that. You know, even the people who love this movie I imagine. imagine, might not, you know, talk about it in that kind of a term. But it's still a movie that's tough for me. It's still a movie that I feel myself drifting from as I watch, that I feel myself somewhat alienated from. And yet I watch it and I'm still really impressed and still really, it makes me like Lowry a lot. It's sort of like, you know,

and again, this is a filmmaker I already really like. But it's interesting to me the ideas that he brings into this, right? The way that it can be, that it can look so lyrical while being

both like sentimental and anti-sentimental at the same time, if that makes sense. It drew a lot of comparisons, I would say, understandably, to Malick. Badlands. All of the reviews mentioned Malik or Badlands or that in particular. Some complimentary and some sort of like brushed it off as kind of aping Malick but without X, Y and Z. It's a hard comparison.

to avoid, especially Lowry being a Texas filmmaker, too. Yeah, but it reminded me of the reviews of Train Dreams a little bit this year, where if you were not particularly inclined to like Train Dreams, if you were part of the sort of cadre of people who, you know, loved the book and thought that the movie was some kind of bastardization of the book or whatever, Malick was used in a lot of the more pejorative assessments of the movie. And I'm sure that I have done this for movies in the past, where I have been like, wannabe Malic, you know, yada, yada, yada. And it's not that I don't see it in Anthem Body Saints, but I also feel like, well, that feels like a pretty easy way to dismiss a filmmaker

and not really have to engage with everything else that he's doing. That any movie that is set west of, you know, Pennsylvania and is in any way slow and lyrical. And someone fires an old-timey gun. Sure. Right. Or it's just like, in any way depicts like a... landscape that is brown instead of green, right?

You know what I mean? Then you're like Malik, got it, clocked it. I mean, in a way, I would be willing to bet that Lowry is not afraid of a badlands comparison because it's like kind of baked into you know, the pivot

that he does, you know, if you're kind of veering towards, you know, the mallock of badlands, then you're also giving the audience a language to which to understand the way that you're diverging from that, you know? Right, right. But, yeah, I think, I think just simply what the subject matter is, it's really hard to avoid thinking about Badlands when you watch this movie. Yeah, yeah.

And even just sort of like other Malik stuff, we did, to the wonder. like, what was the title of that movie? To the Wonder. See our previous episode on To the Wonder. But like this, Anthem Bodies reminded me a little bit of that as well in sort of the the disillusioned central romance of it all and the kind of, you know. But I also feel like you're maybe also short-changing Malik by sort of just brushing every movie with the shot of a field as, as, you know, a Malik ripoff when you're just like, there's so much more to Malik's stuff. Like, where's the, you know, fraught religiosity?

I was going to say, like, where's Jesus in this movie? There's no Jesus in this movie. Right, right. Speaking of which, where is Jesus indeed in reference to Terence Malick? My theory is, we will never see that movie until he is dead. He will not let that movie be seen. Malik's Jesus movie. What is the title of that? The title that we're going with that? Untitled Terrence Malick Jesus movie. Is it really still untitled?

I thought it had a title. That's what I'm saying it is. Oh, okay. Okay. I think it was like the way of the wind, which makes it sound like Jesus is a samurai. Or Jesus says doing a Douglas Cirque riff. Oh, yeah.

Jesus is cradling an oil, Derek. That is definitely phallic. Right. Listeners, go watch Written on the Wind Then that joke will make sense to you We'll have a lot to talk about in this episode, though David Lowry in particular

We chose this movie now Because Mother Mary should be Is Mother Mary already hit in theaters By the time this episode's coming up? It is hitting limited release this week That the episode will be airing I've been waiting for this movie for so long I know, same, same

We love David Lowry, and I both are really into his whole deal. His whole deal. Pete's Dragon, Old Man in the Gun, the Green Knight. I still haven't seen Peter Pan and Wendy. Finding out

that the girl who plays Wendy, well, first of all, finding out that Jacoby Jup is in it, now all of a sudden is really selling me even more. Jacoby, sorry. I'm pronouncing a very American, Jacoby. But also, I looked at the poster,

And then realizing that the girl who plays Wendy is Miliyovic and Paul W.S. Anderson's daughter. And I'm like, well, yeah, like, obviously. Like, look at her. Of course it is. The unfortunate thing is even the people who are on board with Lowry, like the Lowry fans don't seem to like Peter Pan and Wendy. Totally. But it's still something I should probably check out. You know what I mean?

Is there a way to see it not on Disney Plus? Because I do not have Disney Plus. Oh, well, that's, I don't know. The other movie I want to check out is St. Nick, because obviously that's his, the movie prior to Aintem Body Saints that sort of got him attention in the indie sort of sphere, his first feature film. That was a South by premiere in 2009. This was, Aainth and Body Saints was a Sundance premiere. And we'll talk about the 2013 Sundance Film Festival. and I will sort of have you either confirm or disabuse me of the notion that the 2013 Sundance Film Festival was in some way landmark, pivotal, something.

This movie was also an Anthem Body Saints, I should say, was also a Critics Week selection for the Cannes Film Festival in 2013. In addition to the Malik of it all, Lowry cited Altman, particularly McCabe and Mrs. Miller. Claire Deney, particularly 35 shots of rum, which was a movie I've still not seen. I imagine you have. Aside from Bo Travye, probably my favorite Claire Deney. And also the movie that when people are like, she's just like a sadist. She's just, like, doing all of these harsh, like, things. I'm like, you haven't seen 35 shots of rum.

Okay. And then also mentioned Paul Thomas Anderson and David Fincher being influences, which you can see. I don't really see 35 shots of rum in this movie, but I was going to ask, yeah. What Claire Denny in particular, if not 35. I mean, I guess just kind of her impulses. This whole, the whole idea of what you think, the movie. movie is, is, you know, told in kind of rapid succession, and then there's a hard pivot into what the filmmaker is actually interested in, and the kind of, like, fast, like, juxtaposition.

Like, you have to suddenly redirect your mind with what you're watching or what your preconceived notions about this story, these characters are. Sure. So, quick sidebar about Claire Deney. So we've talked about this a little bit, but I've only ever seen two Claire Dene movies. I have seen Bo Chaville and I've seen High Life, which is a real interesting double feature. With the knowledge that I know you're the one you always recommend me to watch and that I will, I will watch. I will eventually fill in the gaps of my Claire Deney filmography. But I know the one you always tell me to watch is Let the Sunshine in. Yeah, I think you'll love that movie. Of her other films, if I were to do, like, I want to do a, like, five film Claire Deney sort of catch up. Oh, God.

Where do you suggest I go? because the ones that I've obviously hear about most of all, 35 shots of rum, trouble every day, white material. And then obviously stars at noon in both sides of the blade because by that point we're doing the can pool. And so I'm, you know, at least like I remember paying attention to both of those. They were both sort of neither one of them really hit particularly hard. and so I kind of avoided them as I had other things to watch. People are definitely wrong about Stars at Noon. Oh, you like that one.

Yes, yes. I mean, I think maybe even if you get the point of it, it can still be a frustrating movie because it's certainly about frustrating people and allegorical to, you know, frustrating political environments. Um, okay. If someone had never seen a Claritinie, I mean, I guess I'm just getting into the territory of telling people to watch my favorites. But like, obviously, Bautravi, I would even say- But like, you also know me.

You know me, you know the kinds of things that I like. You know what I mean? Like, what's going to really, like, hook me on? I'd be, I would be really, really surprised if you don't have any response and don't find things. that you respond to in 35 shots of rum and let the sunshine in. Okay. All right. All right.

The one that intrigues me the most is Trouble Every Day. I do not think you will like Trouble Every Day. I love Trouble Every Day. Okay. Trouble Every Day is like her, like, can cause a celeb. It was a midnight movie. People were very outraged by it. I think it kind of wrongly gets lumped into French New Extremity.

They do mention it right at the top of the Wikipedia article. The only thing that really repulses me is the fact that Vincent Gallo is the star. But everything else, I'm at the very least intrigued. I'm at the very least like, okay, but we'll see. And then what's the other one? White material is one I remember feeling like that got a lot of love. And that's Isabel Huper, who is your girl. Yes.

And so... Greatest living. Is that one of the performances that you sort of rank highly for... For her? No. John Waters and I are of the same mind that her best performance is Story of Women, the Claude Chabrole. That...

I fucking love that movie. When I win the lottery and buy the movie theater that I'm going to operate at a loss forever for the rest of my life, I will give you a solid month to just program your great Isabelle Uper film festival. Yeah, I'll get all of the rando movies that no one has seen and I'll just show up and be like, hey, guys, this is bad, but... Fantastic. The thing about when you love a performer so much and they work so much is you will put yourself through bad movies that are beneath them.

particularly I'll do respect when they're French I've seen some French comedies with her in it that are just when they say comedy doesn't translate

it is just true it's just true like you know I've seen some bad French comedies with her in it that's what I'll say sure sure sure listen the things we do for the women we love we get it

I mean the Eau pairs for me if I'm going to pick like, I know obviously L is her Oscar nomination, but even that year I would pick her in Things to Come over L. I know that that's annoying to some people, but... I don't think that's particularly annoying. I love that performance. That performance has always made me think of my mother.

Mia Hansen Love is fantastic and perpetually underrated. Even in this era of like European filmmakers getting a lot more purchase at the Oscars and stuff like that, I'm like, why are we allowing Mia Hansen's and love to slip through our fingers still. Well, the Lais do one, I thought was fine. I did too, actually. But, like, I'm more just like Mia, your moment could be had.

I would put money on that. Hit us with something. And then to close the button on Uper, if I'm going to pick a third, it's another chabrole, it's La Ceremony. You're going to watch La Ceremony and be like, of course Chris likes this. complimentary or pejorative? Yes, and.

All right. But anyway, how did I get under this? Oh, St. Nick. St. Nick is another movie I want to see if I can track down. I don't know how available it is. I'm sure it's got to be. But anyway, David Lowry, a filmmaker we love, Anthembody Saints, a film I respect.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's his sophomore feature. I think I accidentally called it as debut at some point. But for a lot of people, this was the first they had heard of it. And St. Nick is not the most available thing in the world to watch. But I think for a new filmmaker, it has those things. And I think you see it in other Sundance movies where it's like, what's important, what is exciting about the movie is the director's perspective, less so what happens in the

movie, because this movie does feel a little sluggish in getting to its final conclusion, right? It sets up one of those scenarios where it's like, well, you just got to go through the paces to reunite these characters and at a certain point, we just want to get there, even in a 90-minute movie. But I do think at the end of this movie, I find it very moving. And that's, I think, one of the things that I think is interesting about David Lowry, has, you know, a big. to have these kind of either out there movies or movies that access

their story in an unusual way, but still have these emotional underpinnings, right? Like, I sobbed through Beats Dragon, and it's like, this is a guy who can still make a Disney live action movie

and not really feel like he's compromising his whole deal, which hasn't been the case for some other filmmakers that we've liked. Just a quick update. St. Nick, David Lowry's St. Nick is not currently streaming anywhere. And when I tried to Google search it, I was met with a cavalcade of Christmas-themed slop, which includes, but is not limited to a veggie-tales movie and also a movie called a Hallmarketer. Mark movie called Mr. St. Nick, starring Kelsey Grammer, Catherine Helmand, and Charles Durning,

that features on its poster a photo, okay, I'm going to describe, there really is no other way to no other way but through here. The poster is give, is, is, uh, Kelsey Grammer on a shes lounge on a beach with like the ocean behind him. Kelsey's wearing a Santa coat, the traditional red Santa coat with your white cuffs and the belt and the whole thing. Santa hat, no beard, but then from the like, from the legs on down, it's beachware, which is to say, um,

bare legs. And his feet are, are the focus of, so if you were like, we live in hell. Into, like if you were one to Google Kelsey Grammer feet,

or this would be, well, yes, but like this is much more, I don't think we're, well, I guess we're supposed to imagine that like this is, what if Santa took a beach vacation,

I guess? Wait, now I got a wiki feet rate. Hold on. Now I'm going to have to look up this tagline because I can't quite read it. What is Santa, Santa's got a pristine Wiki feet. Although, like, he's wearing those boots all the time. They've got to be in rough shape. I am not pulling up Wiki feet on my computer right now because I do not want to fuck my Algo. You don't want to do that. Okay. Mr. St. Nick, which is from the year 2002. We were down bad in 2002. Okay. The post- poster reads, sure the Santa thing is changing his life, but he's still the life of the party. I also need to, like, communicate to you. The font on this tagline is so, like, I'm on my phone and I want to caption something, and I don't want to, like, I want to do it very quickly.

So I'm not even going to, like, give it an interesting font. It's aerial font. It's pure aerial font. I'm just going to send you the link to this so that I don't have to, like, you need to kind of see. putting it in the chat Sorry guys We are on Tangent City today Welcome to this had Oscar Buzz

Where we will do a David Lowry episode And have tangents about Wiki Feet And Kelsey Grammer Santa movies Wait, all right The plot of this movie Oh no Yes You're right

Those aren't even his feet It's a foot fetishist's Dream of a poster Especially if you're really into Kelsey Grammer for some reason The plot of this movie, King Nicholas the 22nd, is ready to retire and pass the throne to his son, Nick St. Nicholas, but he is a no-show preferring his lavish seaside lifestyle and sexy girlfriend. Only a miracle can save Christmas. What the fuck? Elaine Hendricks, though.

Who's Elaine Hendricks? Elaine Hendricks is the one in Romy and Michelle who ends up working for Vogue. Yes. Is she also the one in The Parent Trap? Yes. Okay. The Parent Trap, which is a touchstone. When people ask me why I say that I'm Gen X and not Millennial, the Parent Trap movie is a thing that I can point to and be like, I have no relationship to that because I'm too old for Nancy Myers. Neither do I, and I'm younger than you.

You are canonically younger than me. This cast, though, Anna Ortiz from Ugly Betty fame Wallace Sean Lupe Antevers The aforementioned You got me back You got me back Catherine Helmand and Charles Durning

Um But like If If we were ever to like Do a pledge drive Or do a like subscription drive Make us watch Mr. St. Nick

Is on the menu you grimace, but, like, Chris, there is no financial gain without material pain, and this would be the pain. Well, fine, if we get to... I will say it right now. We will record a Patreon episode on Mr. St. Nick. If we get 2,000... All right. So Patreon subscribers.

You see what I mean about the aerial font, though, right? Yes. Okay, thank you. All right. Maybe we should transition that into the Patreon. I don't think Tag 1 should start with phrases like, sure. Yeah, right. An editor would very quickly just cross that right out, right?

Right. You could just start with the Santa thing is changing his life, but he's still the life of the party. Joe, let's, you brought up the Patreon. Why don't you tell the listeners about the Patreon? Sure. Listen. Well, if you're less into Kelsey Grammar Feet and more into fun podcasts, you should consider signing up for this head Oscar buzz. Turbulent, brilliance. Our Patreon, only $5 a month. And for that $5 a month, you will get two full bonus episodes of this had Oscar buzz every month. The first Friday of the month, we will present to you an exceptions episode. What is an exceptions episode? It is an episode about a movie. that we would have done on flagship this at Oscar Buzz, except, oops, it got an Oscar nomination or two, or rarely three or four. But in general, had big Oscar expectations, and they did not

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Small normal performances. Just nothing but normal. Nothing but normal. Normalcy coming out the wazoo in the Black Dahlia. We had a very good time talking about that one. The third Friday of every month, we give you an episode that we call an excursion, which is not about a movie specifically, but is about a element of the film watching experience that we obsess about in our inimitable This Had Oscar Buzz way. We're talking about Entertainment Weekly Fall movie previews. We're talking about old award shows. We're talking about doing our own awards, that this had Oscar Buzz superlatives, of which we have now done three. It's Hollywood Reporter Roundtables,

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the best original song categories of the 1990s and explore the space and expand the lineups, and we really dig into what could have been nominated,

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So $5 a month really is giving you just a lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. Plus you can, you know, comment on the comment threads and, you know, give us some feedback. It's all a really good time. And that can all be had at patreon.com slash this had Oscar buzz. Go get your turbulent brilliance. And potentially, if enough of you do it.

Yes. The Santa Wikifeet episode where we watch Hallmark Channel Classic Mr. St. Nick. All right. Ain't Them Body Saints written and directed by one, David Lowry, starring Casey Affleck,

Runei Mara, Ben Foster, Keith Carradine, Kennedy and Jacqueline Smith, Nate Parker, moving straight forward, and Rami Mollock in a very teeny tiny role. Titi Tinti, Rami Mollock, one of two carjacking victims in this movie. The movie premiered in U.S. Dramatic Competition at the 2013 Sundance Film Festival, played the aforementioned Critics Week section of Cannes, and that opened Limited from IFC films August 16, 1991. I'll say limited. when we get into the box office. Three little theaters across America.

This, the opening weekend, the number one movie, was the opening weekend of Lee Daniels the Butler. Previous episode, The Butler. Everything you are and everything you have is because of Lee Daniels the Butler.

We're the Millers in second place. Elysium. Wet fart of a movie, Elysium. One of these days, sucks. We're going to, no, we're going to do Elysium, though. So, like, save up all your thoughts on Elysium. Well, you know what I have to say about Matt Damon in that movie.

What? Take your hat off, bitch, your balding bitch. Take your hat off. Okay. You and I, I believe, think he's saying slightly, see, the thing she's, think Latrice is saying slightly different things in that. You hear, take your hat

off, bitch, you're a balding bitch. No, I hear your bald. You, apostrophe, are, balding pitch. And I hear you balding bitch. It's still fun to say. I think people need to bring, like, I have never forgotten this and I like throwing it around. People need to do, take your hat off. It's so funny. Every single time I sent you this, this is how much I, you, you've sent me down a rabbit hole with this, with this meme is the photos of the planet Earth that were sent by the space shuttle this week that featured, I believe it's Australia. What is the big, the big patch of brown land

that looked like, it looked like the Australian outback, but I couldn't quite tell. But anyway, I literally saved the image, rotated it so that it would be, so that that big brown patch would be where someone's bald spot would be and then sent it to Chris with the take your head off bitch you balding bitch meme I am obsessed with that so thank you

fourth place planes you know what movie is probably better than Elysium planes Wow Plains the prequel to Plains Fire and Rescue We got a whole planes too Sure did

Plains too We got a whole kick ass two It opened in fifth place on this weekend. I don't think I ever saw Kickass too. I saw the first one and I regretted it. I didn't, but I will tell you, I didn't like the first Kickass either, but

I did kind of correctly call that Aaron Taylor Johnson was a star, so. Who knows? Maybe he'll be our next Bond soon. I don't know, I wouldn't love it. I wouldn't hate it. I do kind of feel like there's been all this, like, I know Dev Patel at this point is probably

like too old. I think they want to go with like young bond. I mean, Jeff Mattel is probably Aaron Taylor Johnson's age, so I should not say Aaron Taylor Johnson. Right. But maybe you know who they should do. Jacoby Jube. Yes. The young bond. Young bond. Like real young bond. They'd have them for the next 30 years. Right? This is a million dollar idea, Joe. I'm saying it on the. Gary's get Dillney on the phone Dillney Deney Ville. Deney? You can tell that I'm a little sick of it. Get Barbara Broccoli on the horn right now. I have got the idea. Yes. Get Deneyville Nive on the phone. We need the young Bond.

Yes, we do. Baby Bond. Also opening and limited release this same weekend as Ain't Them Body Saints. Austin Land. Joe, have you seen Austin Land? No, this was another one of those 2013 Sundance movies, though. I've never Never seen, is Carrie Russell, right? Yes. Never seen it.

What's the, the premise is she goes to like a Jane Austen theme weekend, theme park? Yeah. Like a colonial Williamsburg for Jane Austen? LARPing for Jane Austen. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Jane Austen, but there's no gay people, right? I feel like you wouldn't be allowed to larp as a Jane Austen homosexual because those don't really exist.

So you know how, like, blank check for their Patreon? will do, they'll do their March Madness Bracket for, for the regular podcast, but then they will also do a March Madness bracket that is just sort of like themed, like a cluster of themed movies for their Patreon. I think there are enough like Jane Austen Othamara movies, like not Jane Austen adaptations. Right. But like Austin Land, isn't there a movie called Lost in Austin or something like that? There's definitely the Jane Austen book club. I wrote it. I wrote and directed it. It is my debut film. Hold on, no. Jane Austen Book Club.

Jane Austen Book Club. Becoming, There is a movie called Lost in Austin. Lest and Austin is not great. Lost in Austin. Amanda, an Ardened Jane Austen fan, lives in present-day London with her boyfriend Michael until she finds she swapped places with Austin's fictional creation, Elizabeth Bennett. So, like, there are... This was from 2008. It was a... British miniseries. There's a lot. There is just like,

there was all, the fucking, um, short film nom- oh, you didn't watch the shorts this year. No, I didn't have to,

that was a short film nomination that was essentially like, kind of like a funnier die sketch. Oh, right. The Jane Austen period drama. I did want to see that. Yeah,

it's cute. It's like, it's very much like, it's, it's not quite the like prestige level of an Oscar movie, but like, it's a short,

and it's fun. And it's like, With all of the shorts being, like, dire and depressing, it was, you know, a nice change of pace. But, like, there really is a cottage industry, no pun intended, kind of. For Jane Austen, like, non-adaptations, but, like, ephemera. Yes. Joe, would you like to give a 60-second plot description for Ain't Them Body Saints? Sure.

I am going to right now guarantee that ain't them going to be. 60 seconds. Like, it will probably go longer, but we'll see. Well, on that note, then your 60 second plot description for Intham Body Saints starts now. Casey Affleck is Bob and Rooney Mara's Ruth, and it's either present day or 19 Dickety 2, but in either case

Ruth is pregnant and she and Bob are in love, but when Ruth helps Bob and a friend of theirs pull off a heist of some kind, they end up in a shootout with the cops, Ruth shoots Deputy Ben Foster, but Bob takes the blame when they surrender and Bob is sent to prison. Years later, Rooney's kid is a toddler, Deputy Ben Foster is sweet on her, Ruth, not

kid, obviously. And Bob has escaped prison and is hoffing it across Missouri to come reunite with her. There are also some bounty hunters after him, but put a pin in that because Bob hines out in a tavern, run by his old friend Nate Parker. And if you're keeping score at home, that means we've got Casey Affleck and Nate Parker together in the least problematic scene in film history. But it also does seem at multiple instances that they might kiss. I'm not sure. Bob goes to see Keith Carradine, whose son was Bob and Ruth's friend who got killed in the shootout, and Keith is looking for Ruth and her kid. And he essentially tells Bob that you might as well call him Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

come around here no more. But so remember those bounty hunters? They catch up with Bob and there's another shootout and he kills one of them and has a moment with him and he's, as he's dying about how crazy it is that they don't even know each other, but they're trying to kill each other. Crazy, man. Anyway, back at Ruth's house, Keith Carradine gets into a shootout with the other bounty hunters and Deputy Ben Foster kills one of him, but not before Keith Carradine is fatally wounded and won't be heard from again until the song over the closing credits. After Deputy Ben Foster brings Ruth and her kid home from the police, they find Bob inside her house dying of a gunshot wound, and he and Ruth

have a nice little moment while Deputy Ben Foster keeps the kid distracted and young love ends bled out on an innocent mattress, and the music's real pretty, and that's about it at the end. 25 seconds over. Would you like to interject a few more times about how I have 10 seconds left? I'm

held together by twine and coffee today. Fair, fair, fair. Keith Carradine, so good in this movie. He's my favorite thing about this movie. I think Keith Carradine's so great. When he slammed Casey Affleck's head down on the counter or whatever and was like, better fucking stay away from, I love that.

That was great. Yeah, Casey Affleck, Nate Parker, Rami Mollick, Ben Foster, just a movie full of normal ones. Just normal one after normal one after normal one in this movie. Absolutely. Can we talk about Keith Keratin's Wiki photo? Can we talk about Keith Caradine's WikiFoto? feet at that point. But no, his wiki photo, it's such babe territory.

Are you kidding me? Hold on. I'm looking at it. Hold on. Cast young Keith Carradine as the young Bond. Yeah, cast current Keith Caradine as James Bond right now. And cast current Keith Caradine as Young Bond. Oh, yeah.

Oh, Lord, yeah. What a baby. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. He's still got it. Still got it. So... Right. I'm just going to start here.

Was I alone in catching, like, are they going to make out Nate Parker, Casey Affleck? Like, there was something charged, but also Nate Parker's characters named Sweetie. Is that, like, code for, like, everyone just like... A little sugar in his tank. There's a little sugar. Right, exactly. I love that. You for me. I miss them. Yeah. Like, is the whole idea that, like, they call him sweetie, because... he's like queer and like that's all they'll say about it or whatever in this small

Texas town that exists somewhat out of time. I genuinely didn't know when this was supposed to be taking place. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little, um, and I can't tell how intentional that kind of is or if it is a period thing. But they do all have like semi old timey guns. So I can't believe it's temporary. But like the cars don't seem particularly old. You know what I mean? It's not like they're driving like old Chevelles or whatever. So it's maybe mid-century. No one has a cell phone in this movie.

Well, that is true. But yeah, but I'm like, it could possibly be like 90s. What isn't like... Or like the 70s. But this, okay, so genuinely could be pick a decade out of like one of five. Don't you know that's just how it is in Texas? I presume. Well, it did remind me a little bit of what's,

the other Ben Foster movie, the David McKenzie movie, Hell or High Water, in that way, where I'm like, Hell or High Water, I believe was just contemporary. But it was like, this kind of feels like it took place 20 years ago. This, like, sort of perpetual 20 years ago happening.

In general, even though, like, I also should not, like, I don't want to lump Ben Foster in with, like, people with, like, actual sexual assault allegations. Ben Foster's just like, Ben Foster's just kind of a kook. He's a, he's a, a very eccentric, intense guy, but a good actor.

A very good actor, an actor who I frequently really, really love. I know he's one of those people who, I honestly think, remember how we were talking about Paul Dano a few episodes ago, about like for a while there, everybody was annoyed with Paul Dano's sort of like affect in movies. I feel like Ben Foster. It was around the Batman. And even like, yes, but I think even around like there will be blood too. But like I think Ben Foster really went through that.

And maybe is still, like people still hang that up on him and just sort of like they just don't like his vibe. And this is maybe his most normal performance. I think he's good in this movie, though I never understand this. character. I mean, it is just kind of the contrivance of the thing that you know, we're just supposed to believe that he is romantically interested in this woman who was involved in a

time that he got shot. But I can never really buy that. It does feel like we are brushing up against a somewhat classic trope of like the lawman who steps in for the widow, you know what I mean, who steps in to sort of like save the widow. Like, she's obviously

not a widow, well, until the end of this movie, I suppose. Um, although they never get married. Anyway, regardless, it's just, it's an archetype, right? Um, she's, you know, alone with her daughter. She needs quote unquote protection, you know what I mean? And so, but I think Lowry paints it as a lot more reticent, right? He's, he's very sort of like low key about. And so, but I mean, and so, but I think Lowry paints, it. He's not like big strong man. I think casting Ben Foster, who's a little smaller, you know, kind of, he doesn't have a big sort of imposing presence. He's not like Keith Carradine does. Keith Carradine reads, you know, tall. He's paternalistic with her. Um, whereas like Ben Foster is, you know, short and small. And like, he's a little bit of a

lateral away from this idea of the lawman who, you know, steps in and protects the widow and maybe, you know, they fall in love with each other because it's the 1960s or something like that. But in this way, Ruth is way more interesting because her interest in him seems somewhat reticent. She presents as, like, moving on from... Rediscent is maybe even, like, a more active term that I would say. Like, her... Like, she... Like, you could tell me that she like does not notice his presence in a room half the time in this yeah yeah yeah she's just like she's so like there is no I don't know what she feels about this but like accepting his advances comes with an air of I guess on her part but also she did shoot

him and he doesn't know it so there is that hanging in the air between them as well although like that I don't know if necessarily it's the actors or like But, like, that thing kind of does get forgotten about a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Just like, you know, she did shoot him. Well, and it's, I think it's more like, it's about those two people were in that situation than, like, she sought him out for shooting. Yes.

Yes. But, like, her, she seems to have moved on because of the necessities of the, life. She is a parent. She's a single parent. But then you get to the point where she writes the letter to Bob that gets snuck to Bob, where she does profess that she's still in love with him. And that is a surprise, at least to me as an audience member, because it doesn't feel like she would be accepting his advances either, because she's got shit to do. She has to feed her child, you know. And then you also contrast him with Bob, who is...

still living in the myth. Well, this is exactly what I was going to say. Like, he's all sort of misguided romance, even when he, like, finally makes it back and he's dying. He's not looking to see his daughter for the first time. He wants, he's going to have this moment with Ruth, because ultimately, their story, like, if you, like, the daughter is almost representative of, like, cold reality.

a little bit, right? Whereas, like, if he's going to die, he's going to die with Ruth, where they have this sort of fantasy of the two of them against the world kind of a thing. And meanwhile, like, literally outside the room is responsible adult Ben Foster, like, minding her child while she sort of wraps up this, like, youthful, like, fantasy romance of, like, mythical, I think, more than fantasy. Like, this mythical romance that she's got that is now ending because he's dying. It's interesting. Like I said, all of this to me is just, like, really, really, like, I am impressed by what Lowry is tackling, like, the scope of all. And that's why I think I still, like, am emotionally moved by the end of the movie, even though it feels like the movie sets itself up in this corner that it has to go through the paces to do the thing that it wants to do,

and the going through of those paces is not at all what's interesting about the movie to me. Yeah. I have absolutely no... So there's limitations there, but I do think it's good. I have absolutely no emotional connection to these characters, unfortunately. I think that is probably the big thing that keeps me distant is I don't, and I don't think, it's necessarily a moralistic impulse on my part. Like, I don't think it's necessarily like, ah, these two criminals who gives a shit. Um, part of it is, these are two actors who I very

rarely sort of lock in on, although for as much as, you know, as problematic as Casey Affleck is, I do lock in on him in a movie like Manchester by the Sea. So it's not like I never lock in on Casey Aswell. I mean, it's hard to say, it's hard to not. respond to that performance. Yeah. I even think something like assassination of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford.

A lot of the appreciation for that movie got hung on Casey Affleck and Roger Deacons. But I kind of feel like it's when people, the type of complaints that people make about like Paul Dano in There Will Be Blood

is something I maybe feel towards that Casey Affleck performance. Oh, interesting. Jesse James. That's a movie I, should check out again. It's been so long, and there are so many other people in that movie, like Jeremy Ryder and Sam Rockwell. Everyone is interesting in that movie. It's just he has the big performance, you know. It's also a lead, not a sporting performance. Yes. That was a year, too,

where I think on my own ballot, I would not have nominated Ben Foster for 310 to Yuma that year, which is maybe his most divisive performance. Like, that was a beautiful. All the time. All the movie, I remember people really, really hating his performance, even people who liked the movie. I want to sort of like just close the loop on Foster for a second, though, because very recently, as part of my Watch All the 2001 movies thing, I watched the teen comedy Get Over it. Have you ever seen that one? Hell yeah. What a weird movie, first of all. But second of all, because we did an episode, what's that? Shakespeare adaptation. Yes. Well, yes. In the fact that like they are putting on a production of a Midsummer Night's Dream.

It's hard to do the like the 10 Things I Hate About You version of a Midsummer Night's Dream because that plot has very much to do with like fairies and magic and stuff like that. Yeah, it's possible to do without hallucingenics, without drugs. Well, remember that gay, that gay teen movie that tried to do that just that thing with a Midsummer Night's Dream called Were the World Mine, where it was essentially like they do. just did the like fairy dust thing and they all like all the straight guys in high school became queer it's a bad movie but it's worth checking out i don't know if i like that it's not good um but anyway so among the other observations that i had about get over it which include cisco is in this and which include vitamin c's in this um hell yeah ben foster is giving 1980s

John Cusack parentheses complimentary like remember how like John Cusack was in like all of those like love Lorne 80s comedies or whatever

better off dad say anything all this sort of stuff where he's like he's the love learn one but he's also like you're a little bit of a weirdo aren't you

like but not in like a ducky kind of a way and I was like Foster is so good at playing this kind of role and he only ever did it this one time. You know what I mean? Like, we did an episode on Liberty Heights, and that was sort of that, but

he was, like, crucially, like, two years younger in that one. And so he's playing, um, it's, I guess it's, I guess you could lump that in if you, if you want to do, the sort of like the Cusack era. But like, by the time we see him again in anything, because he's also like, he does like the hardest deceitful above all things in 2004, which was the adaptation of the J.T. Leroy book, where he plays a character called Fleshy Boy. And then, like, the next time people really see him is in Alpha Dog in 06, where Alfaug is sort of like, you know how you saw Anne Hathaway and Havoc recently, which is, right, Alpha Dog is like the slightly more palatable version of Havoc, where it was like, did you ever see that movie,

Nick Cassavetti's is Alpha Dog? where the whole it's like it's um well speaking of unproblematic cast it's emil hirsch Justin Timberlake um and they're like a bunch of like like I think they're dealing drugs and whatever it's just like problematic young you know youngans who are like cyphrods in that movie Amanda cyphrod's in that movie but the whole thing is like they kidnap a 15 year old Anton Yelchin in that movie and that movie and And then, like, Sharon Stone plays his mom. And I think it's all based on a true story or something like that.

But anyway, it's like young people getting into bad shit, right? Like, which was a, there was a, that was a micro genre of movies and dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Foster plays, I believe, a drug dealer and is just like, all of a sudden, the era of intense Ben Foster has kicked off. Because then it's like, 310 to Yuma, 30 days of night. And then, like, sprinkle in there with, like, he's, like, the normy protagonist of the messenger, right? The movie that got Woody Harrelson, the nomination. But in general, like, he's playing William Burroughs and Kill Your Darlings in the same year that he does Anthem Body Saints.

So, I think he's a really, really, really talented actor. He was also in six feet under. That was the other thing. That was the connect, that's right. That was the thing between Get Over It and. And Alpha Dogg, he's in Six Feet Under as... Did you ever watch Six Feet Under? I need to do the full Six Feet Under experience again.

That's one of the shows that's always on my list to... He was Claire's boyfriend at Art School, who ends up... She catches him or whatever. Like, he ends up having an affair with their male teacher. He ends up, like, being bisexual or whatever, but also gets her pregnant. And so it's like this whole big fucking thing. He was also in... This movie made me go back and watch his scene from The Laramie Project.

Did you ever watch The Laramie Project? The HBO movie of it. And he... That movie is sort of full of people who get like one or two scenes to really like do something. And his scene is he plays the teen who found Matthew Shepard's body. tied to the fence post. And he's sort of just like, his scene is just sort of like recounting that moment. But it's really compelling and it's really good.

And that was the first thing I had ever seen him in because they didn't see Get Over it and I didn't see Liberty Heights. It was probably the same year as Get Over. It was probably, I think Laramie Project was 01. Might have been O2. But anyway, just a really incredibly talented actor who nowadays is doing things. like playing Christy Martin's abusive husband in Christy, which is not necessarily a bad performance, but it's just like he's like he's got a paunch, he's got a bald cap, you know what I mean?

He's just sort of like, that is not really a performance or a role that is going to like serve him particularly well. I don't know. Right. We don't have to linger too much longer. I mean, it was better than I thought it was going to be. It was certainly, I think, a better movie than its ignominious box office fate communicates. And I actually thought Sidney Sweeney was pretty good in that role.

But, you know, its reputation is now so, such, you know, so toxic as just a failure that I don't think there's any helping it. I'm sure I will see it when we eventually do that movie. Yes. Oh, yeah, totally. We absolutely will. But you're really high on Rooney in this movie. Yeah, I didn't remember liking her as much as I do. I'm generally high on her.

Yeah. I've definitely come around on her more in recent years. I'm not sure exactly what clicked it for me. I think so much of the hard turn in this movie works because of her performance. It's like she shows up and she's this different person, really. Yes. After we get this, like, transitional monies. moment

that I always found really impressive and I do think Ruth is an interesting character and that we never really know where she's at and Mara's kind of perfectly cast

in that way because I think that's something she's really good at you think of something like Carol where you know the ground is constantly shifting beneath Terez where it's just like

she doesn't really know where she is but like she does kind of find certainty within herself, even though, like, she's figuring it all out, right? Like, that's one of the most compelling things about that performance. Her character's really, or her career is really interesting, too, because she sort of, like, bopped around, we talk about, you know, the alpha dog thing and the fact that, like, the a otts started with, it sort of like came in like a lion and went out like a lamb.

The aughts started with the teen movie craze on high, on high boil, right? Where there's so many of them, this generation of WB-trained teen actors is everywhere. We're doing Othello adaptations. We're doing, you know, bring it on. We've got all this sort of stuff in the early aughts. By the end of the aughts, we're doing shit like youth and Revolt and Alpha Dog. She's in Youth and Revolt is why I mentioned that. We're doing stuff like Dare, that movie with Emmy Rossum and Zett Gelford. It's just a lot of like the kids, man,

they're all doing drugs and having sex and just it's not fun teen comedy. It's like your teens are up to some shit and it's bad. And then I think the first thing I ever really made, like, the first time she ever came to my attention was the Nightmare on Elm Street remake, where she's dancing. Which, so bad, directed by Samuel Bayer, which I don't know if that name means anything to you, but he directed like half of the most impactful music videos of the mid-noughties. He directed smells like Teen Spirit. He directed all of like those garbage videos from the first garbage album, I believe he directed.

the Cranberry's zombie video. So, like, all of the stuff that was my shit in, you know, at that time. But a night round Elm Street, reboot, bad. But that's the same year as the social network, which I think is her, like, genuine breakout. And that leads, of course, directly to the girl with the dragon tattoo because, you know, they're both Fincher. She's in a relationship with Fincher at the time? No. Yes?

No. No. Was she ever in a relationship with Fincher? Was that just a rumor? Fincher's married. Well, right. But, like, wasn't that the rumor at the time? I mean, I don't think that there was anything beyond rumors.

I think she was dating, like, a rocker at that point. Okay, okay. So I'm just, like, indulging in rank, uh, duenua territory. Okay. Um, but regardless, um, Girl with a Dragon Tattoo, huge. Oscar nomination. she's great. That movie is great.

That movie should have led to two more movies, but ultimately, was it that big of a flop? No, it made $100 million. It just cost $100 million. This is my thing. I was always just like,

this is why I can never remember, because I'm like, half of my brain is like, it was so well received. It got her an Oscar nomination. Everybody seemed to love it. got a Best Picture nomination. And yet, I can never square that circle with

they never made anymore. Like, they will make sequels to fucking anything. And the fact that, like, there were ready-made hit novels, you know, out there that did not get followed up on. To the point where, like, Runei Mara in the Sony leak, we see her, like,

writing, like, plaintiff emails to being, like, I'll do it. I'm all ready to go. Like, just say the word. But she's also talked about, like, she had to get piercings for that movie. be that she would have to keep to do another movie. So it's like, hi, guys, this affects my body? Can you tell me if we're making this movie or not? 2013, I will say, is when, I guess it's, I think I misremember.

I think I sort of, uh, Berenstain bears myself into thinking I disliked Rune Amara for an extended period of time. I really think it was just this like set of 2013 movies where I saw Intham Body Saints and I really did not care for the performances of her and Affleck. I think the reason why I didn't not like that movie, I sort of hung up on those two in particular. I saw, I've talked about this before, I saw Steven Soderberg's side effects at Film Society of Lincoln Center, followed by a Q&A with the writer of the movie, Scott Z. Burns,

who he talked about in our contagion episode. I forgot to mention that in our contagion episode. that at the talk back for side effects, Scott Z. Burns pissed me off so much, where he was talking about, like, I don't know, I thought it'd be cool to, like, make this character a lesbian. So, like, I did. And it was very, like, flippant and, like... And it's very much the movie of, I thought it would be cool if this character was an evil lesbian. And, and, like, there are what, like, if he's a gay guy and he says that, I'm just like, all right, like, work. But, like, it was very, like, straight guy, like, dude, like, what if she was gay? And then that was the Q&A where every time anybody asked her a question, whether it was the moderator or somebody from the audience,

she would curl up into a ball and lean into Jude Law and make him answer for her. And I'm like, I don't like that. I'm like, I do not like that. Like, don't, like, if you don't want to be here or whatever, like, don't fucking be here. I don't want to, you know, Q&As are bad. I get it.

But, like, don't do this, like, little baby bird thing. It really fucking pissed me off. I really hated it. and then, but then, like, Carol was two years later, and by the time Carol comes along, I'm like, she's great, actress of the year, like, performance of the year as far as I'm concerned. And so I really, I really think it was just that two-year period of time where I was like, fuck Rooney Mara. Like, she sucks. So I came around on her pretty quickly. I'm glad you came around because she's awesome in rules. She's awesome.

But she has this period where she's in these, like, movies that. don't happen. Right. Mary Magdalene, which we talked about on this before. Wait, what are some of the other ones? Song to song. I guess any of those. The Secret Scripture, the Jim Sheridan movie. Oh, God. Right. Never saw that one. Vanessa Redgrave. I mean, even the things that, like, do hit, they don't hit for her, like, Lion. Even a ghost story, the next time that she's with David Lowry isn't really her movie.

even though she eats a whole pie in one shot? That's what people talk about. They don't talk about that performance. I do love a ghost story. I think it's generally really, really good. Again, another Lowry movie. Una's another sort of like forgotten Runei-Mara movie just because like the version of that that was successful

was the theater, was the stage production of Blackbird that got a nomination for, I want to say, I always get this wrong. Is it Carrie Mulligan or Michelle Williams? Michelle Williams did it on Broadway. Yes. She's in a movie called The Discovery that is a Charlie McDowell movie.

Charlie McDowell is the son of Malcolm McDowell and Mary Steenbergin, who did a movie called... The One I Love? The One I Love, that I really thought was really clever with her, with Elizabeth Olson, or Elizabeth Moss, and Mark Duplas. that I thought was really clever. But the discovery is, that was when I was watching and reviewing, like,

every single piece of, like, Netflix bullshit for my job. And I was like, this movie sucks. It's this weird sort of, like, sci-fi romance. That long ago. But that's also, like, one of the first, like, Netflix movies that didn't go anywhere. I think people didn't like it. I don't know if it was one of the first. but it was definitely part of an era of like a lot of Netflix movies that didn't go anywhere.

I mean, the Netflix movies started in like 2015. Right. But like that was when they started to really like accumulate a lot. And so their batting average went way down. And it was that period of time between Beasts of No Nation and Roma, where they were still trying to figure out what their movie strategy was. was, and so they were really kind of like flailing in the dark. She's in song to song, which is a movie will also probably do in the future. We are going to be doing, look for a Rooney Mara six-timers at some time in the future,

because there are a lot of Rooney-Mara movies that we can do in the future. Never saw that movie. That cast is stacked, though. Yeah. And I'm not just saying it because Likki Lee is in that movie. And I also think that they. there's a lot of people who were on the cutting room floor of that one, too. Not like the super prominent, like Rachel Weiss into The Wonder. Right.

But like people who, you know, there's set photos of them that didn't make the movie. You know what I think is an underrated Rooney-Amara performance that, like, people don't talk about because you don't see her. And also because it's kind of problematic casting is her vocal performance in Kubo and the two strings, where she plays the two twin, whatever. The villains, basically. Which it's just like, I remember seeing that movie and being like, casting Rooney Mara as a villain is so smart. It's so smart. Why hasn't anybody else done it? Even though it's like problematic casting, but like all the like this stuff is problematic casting.

Right. Sure. Yes. Yes. And that was the same year as Lion. And then we talked about Mary Magdalene, another movie that we've done. And that doesn't get released till like forever. She's in.

That's during her Joaquin phase. Uh-huh. They were together for... Because don't worry, he won't get far on foot, is also around the same time. Right. Technically, they shot Mary Magdalene first. Oh, we just got to... I mean, I'm sure we talked about it in the Mary Magdalene episode, but like, one of the things that, like, I was like, I will never not fucking love Rudy Mara.

The set photo of her smoking at the foot of the bloody Jesus. Yes. No, we definitely talked about that in our Mary Magdalen episode. We really... I'm pretty sure that was, like, the photo that you used when you, like, did social about that episode. I think you made a lot of hay about that. Maybe I'll post it to our social on, like, Sunday. Tomorrow being Easter.

So what is the status of that relationship with her and Joaquin? They're married. They produce movies. They are still married. They are still together. Yeah. They're parents. So that's why, like, the role slow down for her in, like, the period we're about to talk about. It just is so hard for me to imagine a Joaquin-Fenix relationship. lasting for that long. I'm like, they must have broke up like four years ago, right? It's like, no.

I guess they're still married. Okay. So she has like a small kind of break and rolls, but I think another thing, on top of being a parent, that is the cause of this. People forget that Nightmare Alley is one of the interrupted productions from COVID. Oh, sure.

She starts filming Nightmare Alley. COVID happens. They have to wait for production to come to start back up. and then it comes out in 2021. So, like, there's that long period there. Nightmare Alley is one of those low-key, like, pisses me off movies in the fact that... You're not alone.

It's not necessarily that I think it's this awful movie. It's that for a movie with this many really good actors, it doesn't really make a ton of great use of most of them. I think, you know... And Rooney is maybe the top of the list of that. of just like, what, why are you casting

somebody as talented as Rooney Mara? Like, it feels like she's there to, like, beef up the, like, the prestige level of this movie

or, like, the, just the talent level, like, you are, like, stacking, like,

Akron actor, or maybe it's just that, like, everybody loves Guillermo del Toro and everybody wants to be in his movies.

But ultimately, like, she's so much more interesting and talented than that movie has to offer her. She's really just, like,

the girlfriend. You know what I mean? Yeah, like the role has nothing to do with what she's good at. Right, right. It's super annoying. But then the next year... She's in the world of talking cast, though. And I think she's one of the better performances in the movie. And like a lot of the... We both love Judith Ivy in that movie.

I think that's both our favorite performance in that movie. So we were frustrated all season that, you know, she wasn't getting the mentions. But when people came away from that movie praising... Claire Foy and Jesse Buckley Jesse Buckley I was like actually I think Rooney Mara is the one doing

the kind of interesting counter performance Rooney was the lead or was campaigned I believe campaigned lead in a movie that was never going to get a lead nomination. It never got

any acting nomination but I certainly feel like it came closer on the supporting level, I believe Claire Foy ended up being the one who got the most momentum in a supporting campaign. But, like, ultimately... I think she got, like, a Critics' Choice nomination or something.

It's still kind of surprising to me that Washaugh never got his first nomination from that because it's not even my favorite Ben Washaw performance. And I think a lot of the people who say that it's, like, a bad performance are... I don't know if I would agree with it, but like I see what they're talking about. But it just feels like a very like, oh, that'll be his first Oscar nomination. It's very showy.

It's very sort of like demonstrative. You can see where people would be like, but he's so emotional and he cries all the time. But where was I going with this? Oh, it was always going to be very, very hard for that movie to get a supporting actress nomination because there were just so many sort of crowding space there. I actually really like almost all the performances in women talking. I do think if they had just planted a flag in Judith Ivey, that nomination would have happened. I would have loved it.

She fucking rules in that movie. It's just like the non-nominated long career. What? Speaking of women talking, by the way. Oh, yes. Joe's background on all of our Zoom chats is the very severe Francis McDormand looming over him. Loving over Sarah Polly at the Oscars, but it's looming over me now. Meanwhile, I have Jill Clayberg sitting on my shoulder.

On your shoulder. It's very cute. I want to talk about Buckingfastered very briefly. The like cousin of the Rooney Mara smoking at the foot of the Bloody Jesus set photo is her and Kate Mara. looking severe with their carpet bags and matching outfits. Wait, I haven't seen this. I haven't seen this. Hold on. Send it to me.

Send it to me. I've seen this, like, de facto poster of the two of them in, like, these, like, shabby cult bride outfits on the IMDB page. This is the set photo that went around. Excuse me. Hold on. Oh my God. It's sort of like the 8th and Body Saints thing. They're like clushing to each other. Together. The soon as I saw that set photo, I was like, I don't give a fuck what this movie is about. I cannot wait. I don't need to know a single thing about this movie, except to see that set photo. I am fully on board. Cannot wait for this movie.

Might show up in the can lineup. I'm not even that much of a Werner-Herzegg girl, but like, I'm so psyched. So the log line for this one, Jean and Joan Holbrook are two sisters who are so close they speak in unison, love the same man, and have the same dreams. They also dress exactly alike,

as that photo plus the poster are showing you. In search of an imaginary land where true love is possible, they start digging through an entire mountain range. What? Movie of the century. Movie of the century. Also in this movie are both Orlando Bloom

and Donald Gleon. Yes, mostly to Donald, but like, I'm not opposed to Orlando Bloom. I have nostalgia. I'm so excited for this movie. It's supposed to come out this year, but like, do we think this is a TIF movie? I mean, her talk usually takes docs there, so... I also just want to hear the words bucking fastered come out of his mouth. Did I send you the, like, joke?

joke real or TikTok, however it originated, of the guy doing a bit as Werner Herzog learning what Lububoos are. No, please. When this episode is done, please send it to me. There is no easier way. The two easiest ways to get a laugh out of me are send me anything set to Yakutty Sacks and send me somebody doing a Werner Herzog impersonation. Yeah, all Werner Herzog impersonations are both D plus and A plus.

There's no good one, but they're all good. They make me laugh so much. Werner Herzog talking about literally any Anodyne sort of like subject matter. Hello. Because it's all just like, do you remember a few years ago when I got very bored one day and based on a slip of the tongue in a work meeting at my last year? that I made a fake poster for Turner & Hooch called Werner and Hooch

and I put Werner Herzlog's face over, hold on, I'm finding this. The Hooch, the Hooch dog. It's a Hootch Muffin' Hooch. Get the Hootch Muffin. Mayor Winningham. You will be, my beloved. See,

All Werner-Hertzog impersonations are D plus and A-plus. They're all bad, and they're all good. Put that in the... But so everybody's response to that was, like, some, like, some, like, fake Werner-Hurzog quote about, like, existentialism and a dog like that, and it's just... It's so funny. Anyway, Buckingfaster. It's super excited for it.

Does that have even, like, a distributor? No. No. I could see it going to Venice, maybe more or so than Toronto. That'll piss me off. I really want to see it. And I'm not going to go to Venice.

All right. So back to the bodies. Back to the bodies, back to the Saints. Right. Why do we love David Lowry so much? Why are we so on board? I think some of it is how absolutely different all of his movies are.

I was just about to say this. He really does not... And when I saw Aynthemboddy Saints, I feel like you could have really sold me on the idea that, like, oh, of course, like, all of his movies are going to be like this. And I think it's very crucial that in between Aintembody Saints and a ghost story, Pete's Dragon, happened. Because even if Pete's Dragon happens after those two movies,

the narrative is completely different. The narrative is he went really hard for this type of style. It didn't really work for him. So now he's like retreating to, you know, Disney IP or whatever. I think the fact that it goes, Ain't Them Body Saints, then Pete's Dragon, then a ghost story, really showed me that like, oh, this guy can do a lot of different things, does not have to really like, you know, lock himself down in any one style.

I don't think Pete's Dragon feels appreciably tossed off or, like, lunch pail to me. Like, I feel like he puts a lot of himself into that movie. He puts a lot of care into that movie. I think that movie is better than it has any right to be. And I think that really impressed me. And then I like a ghost story quite a bit. And then by the time you get to them, the old man in the gun in 2018, which we did an episode on and go back and listen to that. Because you will hear two people, if you want to hear two people gush about a movie, go back to the old man in the gun episode.

We are just like effusive as fuck in that episode. But I think by the time I got to that movie, I'm like, this guy's just the real deal. He's he does not, he has all of this. He has this toolbox. and he's good enough to know that he does not have to empty that toolbox for every movie, that he can use some tools for some things and some tools for another. The Green Knight happens, and the Green Knight is completely unlike anything else that he had done. It's kind of a miracle that that movie exists as the thing that it is, too,

that, like, he can go and make a movie in a bog, basically. Yeah. you need to put dehumidifiers in theaters that are playing that movie I need to go and re-watch that movie because like it releasing in

2021 and you know amid this time of like it was this odd sort of like liminal space between like lockdown 2020 cinema and like the moment where it felt like we were truly

back 2020 is almost, it's not a weirder year than 2020. Nothing will ever be a weirder year than 2020. But like, 2021 is underrated for how sort of unmoored things still felt, even when we were getting things like Dune and West Side Story and, you know, in the Heights and stuff like that. But Green Knight's fantastic. And then I just decided I wasn't going to watch Peter Pan and Wendy.

well again the Disney plus of it and it just kind of felt like that arrived with no fanfare it seems like it went not as well as Pete's Dragon did Pete's Dragon when you think of all the the Disney live action remakes or the Disney you know faux live action remakes Pete's Dragon he if he was going to do a movie like that and work with Disney

I think that's kind of a shrewd choice because Pete's Dragon is one of those things that very easily people can connect to. It's basically E.T. You know, it's, it's a boy and his dog. It's a movie about a boy and his dog. But Pete's Dragon is not an IP that people

have, like, a religion around it, where it's like, you can't touch this thing that already exists, but by the way, give me another one exactly. You know, this weird thing of, you know, the Disney fanatics who like want to tear these like machine movies apart right right if you did a if you did a

if you did a gritty remake of the apple dumpling gang people wouldn't be um you know coming at you with pitchfors you're hired but so it's like he's in a good position to not feel like he's selling out but also like he makes a very earnest movie yes and i I maybe do owe it to Lowry to go just to watch Peter Pan and Wendy at some point and just to complete the loop. But I could not be more excited. The thing about Peter Pan and Wendy is like, we don't need another Peter Pan movie. We just...

Well, that was the ultimate, even just sort of... I understand how obnoxious it is for me to be like, I was really disappointed by this director's choice of projects. But it was a bummer to me that I'm like, what's Lowry doing next? And it's just like, oh, a Peter Pan movie. It's like, you know, hadn't we just, couldn't Rooney have told him that like making a Peter Pan movie is not worth of the squeeze? You know, Ben Zytland. Well, that was the other thing is Zain.

And Zatlin had just made his, you know, Peter Pan movie. And that movie is bad. And that movie was bad. So now we have Lowry doing a new movie. Yes. That has been in the works for a minute with Mother Mary. and he's doing another weird one. Is he ever?

And I am so excited. From the inception of this movie, I was really, really excited for it. The concept of it, the idea that, I mean, the premise as written out on Wikipedia is just fantastic. The film follows the psychosexual affair between pop singer Mary and fashion designer Sam, after the former's need for a dress for her new tour draws them back together. I was like, sold. and then they were like Anne Hathaway. I was like, sold, and they were like Anne Hathaway, and I was like,

old. It was barely, barely out of my mouth. Plus Michaela Cole, plus Hunter Schaefer, who I went from, could not care less about Hunter Schaefer as the only thing I knew about Hunter Schaefer being euphoria. And then I saw Kuckoo, and I was like, all in. So excited. Sean Clifford from Fleabag is in this.

Kaya Gerber, Jessica Brown-Finley, F-K-A Twigs. The music is from Charlie X-C-X and... And Jack Antonoff. And I think Twigs as well. Super excited for all of that. And then... But also that logline is like not it. Like we know that there's like a whole other thing going on, but we don't know what...

I don't want to know until I see it. It seems witchy. It does seem witchy. Yeah. But like, I... I don't know what that movie's deal is. I don't need to know. I just need to let David Lowry do his thing with whatever he wants to do.

I also feel like an April release. I feel my proposal is that we turn April into like David Lowry season. Like he should always open his movies in the spring. I think he is not a filmmaker who I want to see. pitch and hold into this like, we're going to open his indie movie in December kind of a person. Right. He is a person who his movies deserve the space to be discovered to be sort of eased into kind of a thing. This movie in particular, I really don't have any expectations that it's going to be an awards movie. And that is A-OK fine by me. I think A-24 is going to have plenty of other things.

I think Anne Hathaway is going to have plenty of other things this year. The Queen. And if I... Can we talk also about the end of whatever street, the former Flowerville? Oak Street. Yes, the end of Oak Street. They just throw the dinosaur right in the trailer. They just put them right there, right on...

Well, they got to tell people what they're in for. They got to let people know it is a dinosaur movie. I remember, because the first time I watched that trailer, I remember that like, oh, right, Chris told me what this movie was about. And now I can't remember. What is it? What is it? I'm like, I wonder, because I'm like, aliens, right?

Is it aliens? Did Chris say it was aliens? I don't know. I don't think it's aliens. And then I'm watching it. And then all of a sudden it's just like, boom, boom, boom. And I'm like, right, got it. Dinosaurs.

Yes. Which is cool because now we have Disclosure Day, which is aliens. And then we have. have end of Oak Street, which is dinosaurs. Now, if we could only get,

oh, well, Project Halmeri is space travel. I feel like we're getting like all of the major sort of sci-fi signposts. We have the Odyssey. We're getting

swords and sandals. This is true. This is true. Dinosaurs, sores and sandals, we are like stepping our, like, through,

like, the history of the planet, like, bit by bit by bit. Yep. that's the whole year. Fabulous. Fabulous.

Any other things about AIMTH and Body Saints? Let's get into maybe some of the awards of it. I want to very briefly get into this thing about 2013 Sundance. So you're going to be a good sort of control group for me because this Sundance happens when I am leaving my job at ABC. And for the first time, I am getting paid to cover movies professionally, rather than sort of just like amateur-wise. So I'm doing some freelance stuff. I'm working at Tribeca. And so this is all coming at a very kind of like, heady time for me. This is also when like my, I at first sort of become friends with Katie. And sort of just like I'm sort of like, I'm sort of like, I'd first, like, I'd first, become friends with Chris Rosen and getting sort of like in with that whole group. So it makes sense to me that I look at this lineup, this Sundance lineup, and be like, oh, this is like major.

Nostalgic. And yet, I'm like, it's also a really kind of like banger collection of either established filmmakers because you've got link letters, got before midnight there. Like this is stuff that was like either in competition or out of competition. Like I'm not really necessarily talking about like the, Sundance competition of it all. But like, Link Letters got before midnight. Park Chenwok's got Stoker. Who are some of the other sort of like heavier hitters?

But it's also like Jeff Nichols is there with mud. Sarah Polly brings the stories we tell, speaking of Sarah Polly. But then like this is Ryan Coogler breaking through with Fruitvale Station, which at the time was just known as Fruitvale. David Lowry with Anthem Body Saints. James Ponsult with The Spectacular Now, which I remember being like, that was a big deal at that Sundance. Pablo Lorraine's, no, was that that one. Andrew Bujalski's computer chess, Eliza Hittman's, it felt like love, George Tillman Jr.'s, the inevitable defeat of Mr. and Pete.

Jane Campion's there with Top of the Lake, which obviously put her in with the established ones. And then you're like sort of like dyed in the wool, indie folk, Lynn Shelton. got touchy-feely at that at that festival David Gordon Green's there with Prince Avalanche, which is sort of like a minor movie, but like I enjoyed that one. It's just, it's either

and then you've got movies like Mother of George is at that one. The aforementioned Kill Your Darling's. The aforementioned Kill Your Darling's. The way, way back, which we did on this podcast before, was a, you know, big hit. and Amanda Seifred in Loveless. Joseph Gordon Levitt was there with Don John.

It just feels to me like maybe... I don't want to overlay this like the last big Sundance thing because that probably does not hold up to scrutiny. But it just feels like I don't think too many more Sundances after this one felt this kind of like stuffed with talent. The establishment, but also the future. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think the presence of Ryan Coogler in that lineup is doing a lot for that narrative. That's probably true. That's probably true. But, like, yeah, you are talking about, you know, names that we would continue talking about for more than a decade. And, you know, in recent Sundances, I respectfully think that that's kind of hard to imagine. So, like, I definitely understand where you're coming at from this, because it's like, these are still, it's, it is the ideal of what Sundance is supposed to be. Even someone like James Ponsult, who's kind of pivoted to TV. Yeah.

I think James Ponsault makes, you know, interesting movies that are, like, within my taste. Yes. Something, like, smashed is. I even think the spectacular now is actually really good. It is. I agree with you. It's just, it's a tough sell. It's probably the last time you can kind of sell that movie.

I think that's a big part of it, too. I think maybe this was one of the last, because it's also the Sundance that's coming on the heels of Beasts of the Southern Wild, which was a big sort of like Oscar breakthrough there. And a lot of the coverage of the 2013 Sundance was like, what's going to be the new Beasts of the Southern Wild? I think that was a big part of the reason why Fruitvale Station got a lot of Oscar buzz, you know, at that point. Fruitvale Station, another movie that we will, you know, do at some point in the future.

And it's also like Fruitvale Station, they put all that pressure. This is, there were waves of Sundance, you know, where something like Beast of the Southern Wild or, you know, other examples where a movie becomes a big Oscar breakout. And then there's the pendulum swing in the other direction where it's like you're putting too much pressure on a movie to perform in that way. When it's just like if you actually allow these things to happen organically in the way that like even though I don't like the film, Coda did happen organically. Right. Right. And of course, in Coda being like a Sundance movie that goes on to win Best Picture. So like clearly like Sundance was still producing stuff.

But I think you would be hard pressed to look at. at recent Sundance lineups in total and see just this kind of, even just this kind of volume, you know what I mean? Just if you put it all together, I think the, the amassing of filmmakers and films here that are at the very least notable is something that would happen fewer and fewer times, you know, going through. And again, a lot of it is, you know, this term sun-dancy that I kind of, you know, blanch at often.

But it's like, we used to just like have one time a year where we would get a whole bunch of movies and there would be major stuff and there would be like Crystal Ferry, the Sebastian Silva movie, or the Ben Wheatley movie Sightseers, or that movie Blue Caprice, the Alexander Moore's movie, Lake Bells in a world, Kill Your Darling's Mother of George that after the Joey Salloway movie Afternoon Delight that Catherine Hahn was in. It's just like, you know what else was in this movie?

Sonfuckers, Adore, aka Sunfuckers. It's just like, it felt indicative of, and maybe this was a, you know, Fugazi or whatever, but like it felt indicative of a film landscape that felt thriving or at the very least busy. Yeah. There was a lot going on.

Even if maybe like, you're right, that like Fruitvale Station and Ryan Coogler is maybe doing a lot of heavy lifting in terms of like filmmakers who would reach the echelon, the top echelon. But I feel like, and I, and maybe this is just sort of how I see things, I feel like I would much rather, well, I don't know why to make big declarative statements. I just like the fact that there's just like there's a lot to pick from in this lineup, you know? I don't know. It just feels like more and more we're getting things are feeling a little more threadbare, a little more, you know. And obviously, like post- I mean, some of that is density, right? Because we've just mentioned more movies than really even show up in Sundance anymore.

Yes, yes. The lineups used to be bigger, more robust. they've narrowed it, which I suppose maybe helps get more attention for some of these movies, you know, because there's less, there's less attention to go around, but there's less movies to spend it on. So there's a chance that these movies can make more noise. The other thing is, and again, I've never been to Sundance. Neither one of us have ever been to Sundance. But just from sort of anecdotally, I look at like a lineup like this, and I'm like, how did y'all see all these movies? movies. Like, how did these, like, how did they even screen on, you know, in this relatively small little mountain town where you're seeing things and, you know, gymnasiums and whatnot? I mean, things were probably more spread out. They probably screened fewer times. Must have, yeah. Because now you look at us on dance schedule and it's like, oh, they're showing

this world premiere movie, like eight times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, fair, fair. let's talk about the awardsy stuff though The Great Bradford Young wins the cinematography prize at Sundance The cinematography in this movie is incredibly impressive It is, I don't want to use the term I do think that the craft bona fides of this movie Do a lot to get getting a emotional satisfaction

And Daniel Hart is a composer who I I think it's because he works mostly just with Lowry, right? That he hasn't gotten a lot of attention. But I've talked about how much I love his score for the old man in the gun. I think his score for Inth and Body Saints is really, really strong. I think with both him and with Bradford Young's cinematography,

I don't want to use the term showy because that feels pejorative, but it's like they are very apparent. They are very, they're not subtle, you know, the score is very much apparent. The cinematography is very, um,

you notice it, right? You, these are things that are very noticeable in this movie. And I think that is not, you know, that's not a bad thing. I think they're very impressive.

They are, um, there's something you're going to exit the movie and talk about. and I think Bradford Young in particular has a career that kind of like backs that up. And I'm really excited that he's going to be doing cinematography on Michael B. Jordan's remake of the Thomas Crown Affair because it really does feel like Bradford Young has been absent for a solid decade. I believe he's been teaching. Cool. If I'm if I'm remembering.

Selfishly, I hate that. Good for students and good for Bradford and good for, you know, everybody else. Good for having steady employment. Selfishly, that does not do anything for me. Well, when he got that arrival nomination, it was like good, correct, we finally have Bradford Young on the board. He should have already been nominated. But yeah, just a true genius, a master of light, as you will. At that same side, because the Sundance Cinematography Award was for two movies.

It was for Anthem Buddy Saints and Mother of George, which were both in the same movie. Mother of George, the film that starred Denai Guerrera from would later be on the Walking Dead and in the Marvel universe and is just a tremendous actress. The first, I never saw Tina Mabry's Mississippi Damned, but that was the first Bradford Young movie. but also won the cinematography award at Sundance for Pariah in 2011, it looks like, which fantastic movie. 2012, he does Ava DuVernay's Middle of Nowhere, which I thought was fantastic. He also does Selma for Ava DuVernay, and when they see us, the television miniseries. What are some other... He's...

That's interesting. Cinematographer for Everything is Copy, the Nora Ephron documentary that I love so much. That almost feels like bringing a real-life battleship to a game of battleship, which I don't mean that as a pejority.

A pejorative to Everything is Copy, which you know I love and makes me cry every time I watch it. You also hate Talking Head documentary as a pejorative. I do. I love, right, I really appreciate a talking head documentary. But I do wonder, like, Bradford Young feels overqualified for the, what the job description of everything his copy ultimately is as a cinematography project. But also, like, this is the guy who did a most violent year. And as we said, a rival, which ultimately gets him an Oscar nomination. And then, much as with, uh, A lot of things about solo a Star Wars movie put an end to things for the moment. Bradford and Alton Aaron Reich both were like, well, that's it for a while.

But yes, tremendous, tremendous cinematography on this movie. What else? What else? What else? NBR, top 10 independent films? Yes. An interesting list. A lot of those Sundance movies that I talked about were on this list. In a World, Mother of George, Mud, spectacular now. Short-term 12 seems like it would have been a Sundance movie. Was that a Southby movie? Where did that movie?

It was a South by movie. I was going to say, it definitely emerged sort of like all at once. Sightseers, another movie that was at Sundance. much ado about nothing, which now, I remember liking that movie and now feel so toxic because it's essentially just like Joss Whedon and his friends. And like one of the things that sort of emerged from that whole Joss Whedon Buffy the Vampire Slayer Scandal was how much he like played favorites and had his click and sort of like that kind of thing. And so now it's just like, it's, you know, collar pull the movie.

And then of course, the best. of these movies, which was The Place Beyond the Pines, and the worst of these movies, which was Dallas Spires Club. I don't even think Dallas Spires Club is that terrible. It's just like, it feels like the nark in the room of this list. Like, everybody else is like having fun, being cool, you know, doing good stuff. And then it's like, what the hell is Dallas Spires Club doing here? And again, I love, you know, RIP, Jean-Marc-Villet.

Yeah, I mean, John Mark Belay's kind of aesthetic approach to the movie is what's working for that movie. Yeah. But I think some of the fundamentals of it are... I mean, I was moved when I first saw that movie, but it's also one of those things that you walk away from it and it's like, well, and this, and that, you know... Is Dallas Spires Club one of those movies that we maybe think better of it if it never hitches its wagon to awesome? If, like, McConaughey had won the year before for Magic Mike and, like, Dallas Buyers Club doesn't get, you know, doesn't get attached to the McConaughey Awards locomotive, if it doesn't get any Oscar nominations.

Do we maybe look at that movie a little bit better? Respectfully, I think we probably don't think about that movie at all. And if McConaughey doesn't win, I think that opens the door for him to win for a better performance with Interstellar. Oh, you think, okay, so you think if it went, you know, Magic Mike doesn't get the nomination, Dallas Byers Club doesn't hit, then Interstellar is the next year, right? It's 14.

Yes. And you think that he gets nominated and wins for that. Well, people were sick of McCona. After McCona Hay had won, they were like immediately sick of him. So I think there was a lot at play for people not seeing that movie as generously at the time as they should have. So my favorite Christopher Nolan movie. My only pushback to that is just like,

it took until Oppenheimer for Nolan's movies to get recognized on an acting level. And I feel like, like, I think you make a solid case. But like, I still feel like there was some lingering bias there. We're like, these are visual spectaculars, but these are not acting movies. I hear that. I think it's just if McConaughey doesn't already have his Oscar,

I think the immediate response to that movie is different. Okay, so let's follow this down. Okay, so, Dallas Buyers Club is a non-entity in 2013, so Leo wins for Wolf of Wall Street. So Leo has his Oscar. 2014, McConaughey is nominated for Interstellar and wins, which means Eddie Redmayne does not win for...

Which means... So all of a sudden, you're at 20th. 2015, Leo's already got his Oscar, so he's not going to win for The Revenant. You know, I'll just say everything worked out just fine. Eddie Redmayne does probably, I don't know if I would say probably, but all of a sudden you're looking at a best actor year that is incredibly weak, and Eddie Redmayne is nominated for the Danish girl, a movie that they liked enough to give Alicia Vikander an Oscar for. So I'm just saying this, this.

I feel like it's more they liked her in that movie enough to nominate her for that person. Well, it was also like... It's one of those cases where I'm like, she didn't win for that performance. She won for having several performances in a short period of time. I think that's a nice way of thinking, and I think that's a way of like getting yourself through the day. And I think it helps to live in a world where we feel like that is the truth. And not the fact that voters were like, that Danish girl is all. I mean, I hear you, but I do also think if the vote shook out differently and she was nominated for ex-Machina, she still would have won.

I want to believe that that is true. Yes, I do want. Actually, doesn't maybe Rooney just win if she's, if Elysia is nominated for Ex-Machina? I kind of don't think so. Okay. All right. All right. It's an interesting, you know, we like to do these counterfactuals. good for the Gotham Awards for nominating Anthem Body Saints as Best Feature alongside a fairly banger lineup 12 years of slave before midnight inside Lewin Davis, Upstream Color.

Upstream color, the necklet You collar pull that too, although I still remember really liking that movie. And I am also a oh no I can't remember the title of the movie that happened before. Primer. Primer. I'm a big Primer fan. I know that like Shane Carruth seems like a bad dude.

I still really like Primer. What do I even have this logged on on Letterboxed? Positively. I just, those movies were, neither of those movies were sticky for me. Yeah. I don't have a rating for Primer and I've definitely seen it. Yeah. Well, anywho, what else do I have written down about this?

Oh, the handheld stuff during the shootout at night with the bounty hunters, really effective, I thought, as a contrast to the way the rest of the movie is filmed in like these sort of like golden hues and whatnot and feels a lot more. There's so much chaos in the way that like that, like, that, uh, That shootout is filmed. David Lowry knows how to assemble a movie. He really does. He really does.

Any last notes before we move on to the IMDB game? I think that's it. I think that's all I got. Me too. Would you like to explain the IMDB game to our listeners? Yes, every week we end our episodes with the IMDB game, a game in which we challenge each other with the name of an actor or actress, and the challenged person tries to guess the top four titles that the IMDB says they are most known for,

even that little section that says known for. If any of those titles are television shows, voice-only performances, or non-acting credits. We mentioned that up front. After two wrong guesses, the guesser gets the remaining titles release years as a clue. And if that is not enough, it just becomes a free-for-all of hints, which is maybe the most fun part. All right. So do you want to guess or give first? I will give first.

So... What do you got? I obviously ventured down the filmography of David Lowry. Mother Mary was right there, bright and shiny, so I clicked on that. One of the cast members for that is the Mugatu So Hot Right Now approved Kaya Gerber. Kaya Gerber is so hot right now. Please don't tell me I have to do Kaya Gerber. I don't think I could pick Kaya Gerber out of a lineup.

I'm not going to make you do Kaya Gerber. Kaya Gerber's mom is Cindy Crawford And Cindy Crawford Only made one movie of note that I can really think of Which is Fair Game Co-starring one William Baldwin So I'm going to give you William Baldwin Now I have to remember which movies are William Baldwin

And which ones are Stephen Baldwin This is the challenge, yes Well, I'll say Fair Game Correct I would not have guessed that for William Baldwin Stephen Baldwin, his usual suspects. And I think he's also sliver. All the baldwins are dead.

Wait, what is that? It's Mr. Garrison in the South Park movie after all of the the Baldwin house gets bombed. Or is that an episode? I can't, I'm sorry for quoting South Park. I was going to say, man. I'm so sorry.

Jesus, it's 2026, friend. I will never not think of, all the baldwins are dead. Sorry, I'm sorry. This is going to be impossible. What are the other William Baldwin's? Speaking of things that separate you and me as Gen X versus Millennial is knowing what movies William Baldwin was in, I think. It's all going to be bullshit.

Fair game was right. Yeah. It's correct. It was correct. It's all going to be bullshit. and it's all going to be from like the 80s and 90s. So, fine. I'll just start saying Stephen Baldwin movies and I'll say Sliver.

Sliver is right because it's William Baldwin. Fuck off. Fine, then I'll say the usual suspects. No, the usual suspect is Stephen Baldwin. So, one strike. What other, like, trash, like sliver could there be? I'm going to say something that I know is wrong just to keep things moving. and I'll say the outsiders to try to guess.

It's not the outsiders. Okay, so your two years are 1991 and 2005. Oh, God, 2005? You've absolutely seen at least one of these movies. Is it the O-5 movie? Yes. Is it like Batman Begins? No.

Or one of the Baldwin's in... It's from a major filmmaker. In O-5. You said major filmmaker. you did not say Oscar winner. Not an Oscar winning filmmaker, but the movie is an Oscar nominee. In 05. In 05 in one category.

Visual effects. No. Song. Nope. Damn. You had a big no for that. Yeah. This is not a visual effects movie by any stretch.

A screenplay nominee. Mm-hmm. Okay. Single screenplay nominees in 05. So this is something that would have come out. I probably would have seen it in college. This is the year I graduate high school. It's a movie I did not like as much the first time, and then I rewatched it in the last few years, and I liked it a good bit better.

Okay. But it is not my favorite of this person's films. Original or adapted. Original. Original. Original screenplay in 05. So we have... What's winning original screenplay that year?

05. So it's not... Oh, crap. Is it Crash? No, because Crash won best picture. It's not Crash. Crash did win original screenplay that year. Yeah.

God. So what was Crash nominated against? Why is this so hard? it's because it does not sort of connect to any of the other Oscar nominees that year Oh okay I'm guessing it's an independent It is an independent It is a director who would be nominated

One More Time Or not one more time For director eventually Much later This movie was like a college card movie for this director for quite a while. Oh, is it Memento? It's not Memento. That was O...

That was O2. O1. It was O1. Okay, yeah. Also, Nolan's been nominated more than once. Right. This movie stars one future best actor nominee.

One actress who was nominated for two Oscars in her career, both prior to this. One actor who you'd think would have been nominated for an Oscar, but has to date not been. And another younger actor who, younger Nepo actor who has now started directing things.

Okay. This is tough. Is William Baldwin... It shouldn't be. What, sorry, is William Baldwin? He's like, ironically... Oh, it's the squid in the whale. There you go. Yeah. Sorry. I didn't want to be, like, too explicit.

But, like... It's the squid in the whale. It's the squid in the whale. Yes. Also, did you just say that Laura Linneut was nominated for two Oscars? Excuse me? You can count on me. You disrespect her three nominations. Oh, savages.

Sorry, I totally forgot savages. How dare you? How dare you? You know what those three Oscar nominations mean to me, and you take them away. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right.

Your 1991 movie, it is from an Oscar-winning filmmaker. 1990. 1990. He hadn't won his Oscar yet. He would win his Oscar yet. several years later. This is a hit movie. This was a very sort of like

pitched to the broad public kind of a movie. The kind of movie that got made a lot in the 90s. Is it an action movie? It is, but not in like a cheap way. It's like a lethal weapon.

It's not like a cop it's not about cops kind of like crucially um oh is it backdraft it is backdraft what got you there it's not about cops oh you're like oh okay

who could it be about yes backdraft he's the sort of co-lead with Kurt Russell in that movie backdraft a movie I have not seen since like the 90s and I remember liking it and I remember like for it being a very kind of you know mainstreaming

movie. I remember Ron Howard got a good bit of respect for the visuals in particular of the fire scenes. Well, two of those movies are movies that I absolutely thought were Stephen Baldwin, because I thought Backdraft was probably Stephen Baldwin, too. That's so funny. Yeah, like, gun to my head, which Baldwin is in backdraft. I'm like, uh, Stephen. Well, now I am mentally making a note to give you Stephen Baldwin one day, so we'll see how it goes. I won't look up his IMDB. Who do you have for me? I went into the Lowry filmography. Someone you might forget is in Pete's Dragon.

Is Mr. Carl Urban? Oh, really? Okay. Well, the thing about Carl Urban is he is in big movies where he is anywhere from the fifth to 12th lead. And he is in smaller movies where he's the lead. Is it any television, by the way? There's no television. So, no the boys.

Is one of them Star Trek? Star Trek, correct. Is one of them Lord of the Rings, the Two Towers? The Two Towers is correct. Okay, okay, okay. I don't think you would have given this to me if it was both the Two Towers and Return of the King. So I'm just going to keep it with the One Lord of the Rings movie.

And we'll see if maybe you wear a little reverse psychology on. me, but maybe not. Okay. Dread? Dread is incorrect. He's the guy in Dread, right? He's the titular Dread. He's the titular Dread.

Okay. Oh, here's where I am maybe. I don't think it would be another Star Trek movie either. Although that, I think, maybe, is a little bit more possible than another Lord of the Rings. say Carl Urban underrated in the Star Trek movies. Really Enjoy. He is really funny. I really like him in those. All right,

I'm just going to say Star Trek Into Darkness. Incorrect. So your years are 2003 and 2005. Return of the King? Return of the King is correct. You always accuse me of some like reverse psychology and I'm like, I

didn't even give it a moment's thought. I was like, sure, he's probably going to guess both of these anyway. But We haven't done Carl Urban, and I think that this is kind of fun. Okay, what's the other year? 2005. Carl Urban after Lord of the Rings, but prior to Star Trek. This is another IP title.

Okay. Is it like a remake slash reboot of something? No. It is, you could think that it would be a reboot of something, But it's really just that, like, this is IP that they made way too late. Way too late. Oh, that's interesting. So, like, the moment had passed.

Yes. Because this was a popular book that was, like, no longer popular? There was a popular television show that was no longer popular? Was a popular video game that was no longer popular? Okay. Doom. Doom is it right? It's known for.

Wow. Okay. Yeah. Doom was like a really big deal, but like, yeah, you're right. Like, many... Why would you make a Doom movie in 2005? Crazy. Crazy.

That's so funny. Thank God it was one of the, like, four video games that I know. Like... You know, perfect time to make a quake movie now. I don't even know what you mean. I don't even know what you mean. I don't even know what you mean. I don't even know what that is.

Can I tell you what I'm excited for against... Not even against my better judgment. My first blush was like, no. why are we doing that? But now I'm so excited. What? Zach Craigers Resident Evil. Yes.

Yes. I think I just, I trust him enough at this point. There's something I need to tell you about that movie that I'll tell you once we're done recording. Okay, great. Okay. Yeah. I'm at the point that I'm like, should I play some Resident Evil games on the Switch? Have never played those for a second.

I only know them as a Miloiovovich movie series. But I've always been. I love a scary video games, but I do love a scary video game. I just think the premise is like it's really a good idea for a good, you know, horror movie with a good, you know, horror director, and we have one. So, let's do it. You know, if Austin Abrams is the star, I'm all for it. That's true.

Oh, my God. That's, I didn't even think about the Austin Abrams of it all. Yeah, Austin Abrams and Zach Craig are together again. I'm so in. All right. That's our episode. If you want more This Had Oscar Buzz, you can check out the Tumblr. This had oscarpuzz.tumbler.com.

please also follow us on Instagram at This Had Oscar Buzz and on Patreon at patreon.com slash This Had Oscar Buzz. Joe, where can the listeners find more of you? I am on Letterboxed and Blue Sky at Joe Reed, read spelled R-E-I-D. I am also on Vulture, at Vulture, doing vulture stuff every day, doing Cynometricks's coverage, doing M-E's coverage, doing reality TV coverage, all sorts of stuff. It's super fun. I love it.

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